Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 37491

 1                           Monday, 10 August 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 11.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, after a long period, to everyone in

 6     this courtroom and good morning to everyone, those -- everyone outside

 7     the courtroom as well.  We had a bit of a bad start, but let's resume

 8     properly.

 9             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

11     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             The late start this morning was caused by technical problems

14     which prevented us to start this hearing.  I hope that they have been

15     overcome now for sure.

16             Are there any preliminary matters to be raised?  I was not

17     informed about any.

18             Then is the Defence ready to call its next witness, and we

19     understand that it would be Mr. Gojkovic?

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the usher escort Mr. Gojkovic into the

22     courtroom.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Gojkovic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 37492

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gojkovic, before you give evidence, the Rules

 2     require that you make a solemn declaration that -- apparently there's

 3     some audio ...

 4             Do you hear me now in a language you understand?  Is it a channel

 5     or is it a -- do you now --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation][No interpretation]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The volume now having been adjusted.

 8             Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a

 9     solemn declaration the text of which is now handed out to you.  May I

10     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  DRAGIC GOJKOVIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gojkovic.  Please be seated.

16             Mr. Gojkovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find

17     Mr. Lukic to your left.  In a minute he will be standing.  He is.

18     Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

19             Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, you may proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Gojkovic.

23        A.   Good day.

24        Q.   Could you please tell us your first and last name for the

25     transcript.  Slowly, please.

Page 37493

 1        A.   I'm Gojkovic, Dragic, son of Miroslav --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreters could not hear the rest of

 3     what the witness said.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I invite you to speak a bit more

 5     slowly because already part of your last answer was not caught by the

 6     interpreters.  Could you please repeat what you said after you said:

 7             "I'm Dragic Gojkovic, son of Miroslav ..."

 8             And what did you then say?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born in Kosovo, in Pec.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Mr. Gojkovic, I was also

11     informed that you might wish to consult some papers you've brought with

12     you.  If that is the case, please inform me that you want to consult any

13     papers you brought; and, second, tell us what it is that you're

14     consulting.  Is that clear to you?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Mr. Lukic will now proceed.  And if you keep

17     the speed under control, there may be no need for further

18     interpretations.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             It was probably my mistake.  I should inform Your Honours that

22     consultation with the Prosecution, Mr. Gojkovic has his expertise in

23     front of him and expertise of Mr. Riedlmayer, and it was checked by

24     Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:  That's correct, Your Honours.

Page 37494

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's all fine, but we should know it and we now

 2     do.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             Can we have on our screens, 1D5893, please.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gojkovic, we have your CV in front of us.

 7     Has anything changed in the meantime since the time that you wrote this

 8     version of your CV, this draft of your CV?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   And is it correctly recorded here?  Everything that has to do

11     with your work history, is it correctly recorded according to your best

12     recollection?

13        A.   Absolutely.

14             MR. LUKIC:  We would offer this CV of Mr. Gojkovic into evidence,

15     Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

17             Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D5893 receives number D1170,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D1170 is admitted.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             Can we have on our screens 1D5892, please.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gojkovic, we see your report here that you

25     drafted for this case.  You're a member of the VRS.  We were able to see

Page 37495

 1     that from your CV.  I wanted to ask you when did you first begin to work

 2     on the damaged and destroyed buildings that are the subject of yours and

 3     Mr. Riedlmayer's analysis?

 4        A.   From the point of time when I was given the task of doing that.

 5        Q.   Let me just tell you that when I'm pausing, it doesn't mean that

 6     I'm not satisfied with your answer.  It just means that I'm waiting for

 7     the interpretation.

 8             During the war, were you given the task of working in any way on

 9     these destroyed religious buildings?

10        A.   No, that was not a part of my work.

11        Q.   In your work, did you look at the work of Mr. Riedlmayer?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the answer.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please speak clearly.  The interpreters

14     didn't catch your answer.  Could you repeat.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I looked at everything, absolutely.

16     And I worked on that subject.  I'm talking about the report of the

17     expert Riedlmayer.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, this is, of course, pretty obvious if you

19     read the report that the witness did look at Mr. Riedlmayer's work.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I had to have some introduction to the next question.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I remind you, Mr. Lukic, that one of the

22     previous questions were not answered.  You asked when were you given the

23     task, and -- I really don't know when that happened.

24             MR. LUKIC:  First of all, I don't remember I asked that question.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think you asked --

Page 37496

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said:

 2             "I wanted to ask you when did you first begin to work on the

 3     damaged and destroyed buildings...?"

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the answer was:

 6             "From the point of time when I was given the task of doing that."

 7             When was that?  This is the critical question, I think.  You

 8     should put that to the witness again.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was sometime in June 2014.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, your reports starts with:

12             "On 15 May 2014, I received the task from the defence team of the

13     accused General Ratko Mladic..."

14             And -- could it have been May?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible.  It's possible.  You

16     are correct.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And since I read that line anyhow, it also

18     says that you not only received a task from the Defence team but also "a

19     request of some wartime engineer officers of the VRS Army to review the

20     part of the material..." that -- and then, et cetera.

21             Could you tell us who they were?  Who were the war-time engineer

22     officers that requested you to do a similar thing?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was given the assignment

24     from General Mladic's Defence team, I knew a number of the superior

25     officers who were with me in the war, and there was talk about who could

Page 37497

 1     do it.  Then they insisted that I do it because I'm the most senior among

 2     all the engineering superior officers in the Army of Republika Srpska,

 3     and I engaged some of those senior officers to help me in the drafting of

 4     the report because the deadline was very short to draft the report.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So if I understand you well, you received the

 6     task.  You then discussed with the others - four of them are mentioned in

 7     your report - who would take the lead, and then you decided that you

 8     would be the expert reporting and that the other four would assist you.

 9     Is that well understood?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Looking at Mr. Riedlmayer's report, did you find out any data

14     whether Mr. Riedlmayer established the material from which these

15     destroyed buildings were built?

16        A.   No.  Except in a couple of places involving buildings made of

17     stone where it was obvious by looking at the photographs that these were

18     stone buildings --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

20     sentence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, again, could you repeat the last part of

22     your answer and try to pronounce every word until the very end of your

23     sentences.  What was caught is that:

24             "... it was obvious by looking at the photographs that these were

25     stone buildings ..."

Page 37498

 1             And what did you then add?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is something that the expert

 3     Riedlmayer noted in his report.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   And do you believe that it was important to establish the

 7     construction material in order to be able to determine the manner of

 8     destruction, i.e., to determine the technology used in the destruction?

 9        A.   Of course it's necessary.

10        Q.   And as an example, could you please tell us what is the

11     difference between destroying reinforced concrete and a stone building?

12        A.   Each building constructed of any kind of material is different

13     because the hardness of the material is different, the hardness of stone,

14     of stone, of brick, of reinforced concrete requires a different approach

15     in order to destroy such a building.  This is how it's regulated.  It's

16     how you need to do something like that.

17        Q.   In order to destroy a building, on the basis of the rules that

18     you acted upon, you and the engineering units of the VRS, was it

19     necessary to get the appropriate documents pertaining to such a project?

20        A.   Yes, absolutely.  That is the very basis.  You cannot move any

21     further if you don't have the proper project documentation.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, apologies to interfere.

23             But when reading your report, I found out there were all kind of

24     rules and what is the proper way, well prepared to destroy a

25     construction.  I also noted that you established that in almost all if

Page 37499

 1     not all of the cases that was not what was done.  It was done in the --

 2     the fast way, to say, just put a lot of explosives in it and then blow it

 3     up.

 4             So, therefore, that may make it, Mr. Lukic, less relevant to look

 5     in detail to how it should have been done if it was done in accordance

 6     with the rules, because that's apparently what, if I understand your

 7     report well, was what never happened.

 8             Is that a proper understanding?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So tell us what you should know if you would prepare

11     it properly if it was never done seems to be of less, if any, relevance.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   In Mr. Riedlmayer's papers, did you find anything to that effect,

15     that he dealt with the project documentation, the plans of these

16     buildings?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   As for conclusions, except in relation to these two buildings

19     that you have mentioned by way of an example, the Ferhadija mosque and

20     the Petricevac monastery, on the basis of what did you draw conclusions

21     in terms of how buildings were being destroyed?

22        A.   On the basis of reports by Mr. Riedlmayer, because I did not have

23     any other access to these buildings.  Even more so, because in the

24     meantime all of these buildings were repaired, reconstructed, rebuilt.

25        Q.   What about the dimensions?  Now we're talking about mosques.

Page 37500

 1     What are the dimensions of most mosques in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 2        A.   Out of the 94 buildings that Mr. Riedlmayer dealt with in his

 3     report, except for the Ferhadija mosque in Banja Luka and the Aladza

 4     mosque in Foca, and its dimensions are 18.-something metres by

 5     14.-something metres, most other mosques are 10 by 8 maximum and they are

 6     5 to 7 metres high.  So they're rather fragile edifices, especially when

 7     there is no reinforced concrete, when not built in a modern way, and so

 8     on.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I just ask:  Were they of them not built in a

10     modern way; in other words, not built with reinforced concrete?  You said

11     you didn't see them.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are quite a few.  There were

13     quite a few.  You can see that from the photographs that are attached to

14     Mr. Riedlmayer's report.  When one looks at the photographs in detail,

15     that can be seen, although it's difficult.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do I understand you to say you can see by looking

17     at the photograph that the building was not reinforced?  Is that what you

18     are saying?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can be seen, of course.  I mean,

20     you cannot be absolutely certain.  But 90 per cent, yes.  Ultimately, you

21     can see that from some other information and that is the time of

22     building.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Could you tell us how you managed to see this from photographs?

Page 37501

 1     Do explain this to us.  On the basis of what did you manage to see that

 2     they were not built in a modern way, not reinforced, and so on?

 3        A.   There are places of worship that are made of stone, and that can

 4     be seen.  There are places of worship that are made of bricks, and that

 5     could be seen when they are destroyed.  And then especially when minarets

 6     were destroyed, when the minaret was cut, if you will, then you see the

 7     reinforcement, and that can be seen just by looking at the photograph at

 8     first glance.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have page 119 from this document that's on our

10     screen.  It's 1D5892.  It's enough it's in B/C/S version.  That's the

11     picture I wanted to see.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Gojkovic, what would you say on the

13     basis of this photograph?  Was this a reinforced building or not?

14        A.   This is the mosque in Kamengrad, Sanski Most.  The mosque was

15     built just before the war, mostly made of reinforced concrete, as can be

16     seen from the photograph itself.  It was destroyed in a rather

17     unprofessional way.  The entrance of the mosque remained basically

18     intact.

19             Too much explosive was used here, but the explosive was not

20     placed properly, and the preparation was not carried out in accordance

21     with rules and standards that were applied by the former JNA because you

22     see that the entire front side remained intact.

23        Q.   Why is it important to know the size of a building and the

24     construction of the building in terms of destruction?

25        A.   It is absolutely important because I claim with full

Page 37502

 1     responsibility that most destroyed facilities can be removed mechanically

 2     without explosives, without destroying buildings around them.  So

 3     mechanisation can be used.  There was no need for this kind of wild

 4     destruction as shown by the expert in his report.

 5        Q.   When you say "mechanically," could you explain what you mean by

 6     that and what that presupposes?

 7        A.   Well, it presupposes the use of appropriate machinery for a

 8     construction.  Different types of construction depends on the element

 9     involved, which element one wishes to destroy on a building.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, is there is a difference in pages between

11     the B/C/S version and the -- because you referred to page 119 --

12             MR. LUKIC:  In B/C/S, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  In B/C/S, yes.  That's not -- and what page would

14     that be in English?

15             MR. LUKIC:  Just one second.

16             Page 124 in English.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  124, thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have -- I'll ask first.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] In your paper, the review of engineering units

20     of the VRS, how did you obtain this information?

21        A.   As chief of engineering of the 1st Krajina Corps - and I assumed

22     this duty in 1992, in October, sometime in October, and until 1997, I

23     held that post.  I, as chief of engineers, I left the complete archives I

24     had to my successor, including all the work notebooks that I was issued

25     in the beginning of every year, and I recorded all the tasks I received

Page 37503

 1     from my superiors; primarily from General Talic and General Kelecevic.  I

 2     kept all of this in the archives.  Now when I was given this task, I

 3     tried to find that, but I couldn't find anything.  There's nothing left.

 4     These archives are not left.  And I precisely recorded everything there,

 5     each and every word, and I left that in the archives of the corps and I

 6     couldn't find that.

 7             As for tables, it is correct.  As for the units of the

 8     1st Krajina Corps, I must admit that I know that very well, even 20 years

 9     later.  I must admit that I don't remember some things.  But as for the

10     other units, we called some people and I managed to gather some

11     information that way because I had no other way of dealing with it.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

13     microphones please be switched off when the witness is speaking.  Thank

14     you.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have page 4 in English and page 5 in B/C/S of

16     the same document, please.  4 in English and 5 in B/C/S.  5 in B/C/S.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] We see the B/C/S version here from the very

18     beginning.  And in the second half of the English page, there is a list

19     of engineer units of the Army of Republika Srpska.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Can we move to another page in English, please.  Next

21     page.  That's only continuation of the first, point 1.  And then we need

22     another page, next page.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] So, when speaking of the Drina Corps, the

24     Eastern Bosnia Corps, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the 2nd Krajina Corps,

25     did you have immediate knowledge about these units or did you collect

Page 37504

 1     this information for the purposes of this paper?

 2        A.   No, we contacted people from the 2nd Corps, the then-chief of

 3     engineering of the 2nd Krajina Corps, Colonel Milos Babic.  As for the

 4     Eastern Bosnia Corps, we contacted Colonel Sokic.  For the Drina Corps, I

 5     would kindly ask that the name not be mentioned because this is still an

 6     active-duty officer.  Would that be possible?

 7        Q.   Well, for the time being, if the Trial Chamber feels that you

 8     need to mention the actual name, then we will move into private session,

 9     but now let's just move on.

10        A.   For the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, it was Colonel Avramovic who

11     provided this information to me.  And for the Herzegovina Corps, I

12     received information again from the same person that was from the

13     Drina Corps and that is now still an active-duty officer in the BH army.

14        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 7 in the B/C/S,

16     because that's the first one on the left-hand side, and page 8 in the

17     English version.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, Mr. Lukic.  I would like to

19     hear from you, Mr. Gojkovic, what information did you receive from these

20     people?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Information about the engineering

22     units that were in the units of the corps of the Army of

23     Republika Srpska.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 37505

 1        Q.   Mr. Gojkovic, we see before us an analysis of VOB-8, the 1st

 2     Engineer Regiment of the 1st Krajina Corps of the VRS during the war.

 3             Sorry.  Just a moment, please.  I need to address the Chamber.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we have those documents introduced into

 5     e-court separately and as part of this work of Mr. Gojkovic, so I would

 6     kindly ask you to tell me which way would you prefer:  To use documents

 7     already attached as part of the expertise, or do you want me to call up

 8     65 ter numbers?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm also looking at Mr. Traldi, whether he has any

10     suggestions or preferences?

11             MR. TRALDI:  My recollection of the Chamber's decision on the

12     94 bis motion for Mr. Gojkovic was that the attachments to the report

13     should be considered separately, and I think for the clarity of the

14     record we need the 65 ter on the record when Mr. Lukic tenders if it he's

15     going to do so.  That's my recollection.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think that would be good, Mr. Lukic, because

17     if there would be any dispute about any attached documents, any of the

18     annexes to the report, then if we take them as a whole it's more

19     difficult to decide on them one by one.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, would you please --

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- refer to them as separate documents --

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But perhaps in order to better understand the

Page 37506

 1     testimony, also state on the record that it is the same as an attachment

 2     to the report and which one.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  So if we have 1D5758, please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And while we are waiting for that, Mr. Lukic, I

 6     think -- and I didn't hear from any of my colleagues, to insist on

 7     hearing the name of the person the witness referred to.  But the mere

 8     fact that it's an active-duty officer, of course, if it is at the same

 9     time someone who is the source of knowledge of this expert witness, is in

10     itself not sufficient to consider that as protected information.  But

11     again you didn't insist, the Chamber doesn't insist, but we still do not

12     know whether Mr. Traldi would insist on hearing that name.  Perhaps not.

13             MR. TRALDI:  I'll consider it over the break, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gojkovic, we see a document here entitled:

18     "Analysis of VOB-8, 1st Engineer Regiment of the 1st Krajina Corps of the

19     VRS During the War."  Could you please tell us what this table shows, who

20     drafted it, who filled in the information, and on the basis of what

21     information was it created?

22        A.   I drafted the table.  VOB-8s for the two engineering units I

23     received from the Ministry of Labour of the government of

24     Republika Srpska.  I received the VOB-8s from the Ministry of Labour and

25     the veterans' benefit service from the government of Republika Srpska.

Page 37507

 1     On of the basis of their data, I personally created the table.  And the

 2     information in the table was entered by Lieutenant-Colonel Zeljko Strukar

 3     who was an operative in the 1st Engineers Regiment from mid-1992 until

 4     the end of the war.

 5        Q.   And what can we see in the table?

 6        A.   The table indicates first how many soldiers from different ethnic

 7     groups passed through the units in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, and

 8     1996.  I mean Serbs, Croats, Muslims.  Also, what the -- how many of them

 9     were transferred from the regiment units to different engineers units of

10     the 1st Krajina Corps per year, year by year.  The third column shows how

11     many deserters were there from the regiment units, again by year and by

12     ethnicity.

13             I can't really see ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Can it be enlarged for the witness, or if you want

15     to consult, I asked you to tell us, but you are now apparently consulting

16     the paper copy.  But it could be enlarged for you, yes.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's all right.  All right.

18     I'm.

19             Then in the next column there are people who were demobilised

20     because of work obligation, and the data is compiled by year and by

21     ethnicity.  And then the next column is the number of people who were

22     killed by year from 1991 to 1995, by ethnic groups as well.  And then

23     there is the number of soldiers that survived until the end of the war,

24     and the figure is given by ethnic group:  So we have 92.7 Serbs or 1.649;

25     there are 66 or 3.7 Croats; 63, or 3.6 percents Muslims.  Total number is

Page 37508

 1     1.778 soldiers.

 2             Now, why did I present this information?  Primarily, you can

 3     clearly see in the table what sort of discipline there was in the Army of

 4     Republika Srpska in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1995.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   And what do you think?  What was the discipline like?

 7        A.   As an officer in 1991 and 1992 and 1993, personally I was

 8     dissatisfied with discipline.  We had a lot of problems in the working --

 9     in working with the soldiers.  And in 1994 and 1995, discipline was

10     drastically --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter did not hear the end of the

12     sentence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you again repeat the last part of your

14     sentence.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally believed that

16     discipline in the Army of Republika Srpska in 1991, 1992, 1993 was not

17     very high, and it was very difficult to work directly with the men in the

18     field.  Already in 1994 and 1995, the discipline was much better and much

19     stronger.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   And what sanctions were imposed on deserters?

22        A.   The punishment for desertion were that we reported it to the

23     ministry or actually the military department.  We reported what they did,

24     what the measures were that were taken, what was done, so actually a very

25     small number of these cases or these people were processed.  And I just

Page 37509

 1     would like to emphasise here that literally Muslims and Croats who were

 2     leaving at the time were not subject to any kind of censure or

 3     punishment.

 4        Q.   On page 9 in the English version and page 8 in the B/C/S version

 5     of your report, a document is referred to as 1D --

 6             JUDGE ORIE, Mr. Lukic, are you done with this document we had on

 7     our screen?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I am, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I would have a question for the witness.

10             Witness, could I take you to the column in which deserters are

11     mentioned.

12             And could it be enlarged slightly in the B/C/S so that I can also

13     check whether there's any ... let me ... if you'd give me just one second

14     to check whether there's any mistake here.  Yes -- but could it be

15     enlarged, just the deserter part; that is, which is now the -- right,

16     but -- yes.  And to be enlarged considerably.  Yes.

17             Could you have a look at that.  I see that you are dealing with

18     the totals and the percentages.  Now, the total of deserters over all

19     those years is:  80, which is 5.5 per cent, and then we're talking about

20     Serbs; Croats, 15, which is 1 per cent apparently; and then Muslims, 51,

21     35 per cent.

22             Now, I understood that the percentages in the vertical columns

23     are such that they would cover the total number which then appears below.

24     Could you explain to me how 5.5 per cent, plus 1 per cent, plus

25     35 per cent, makes up 100 per cent?  Because for all the other vertical

Page 37510

 1     columns where totals are described, adding the percentages brings me to

 2     close to 100 per cent --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are correct.  Yes, Your Honour,

 4     you are correct.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  There's mistake there, if I understand you well.

 6     And would it be that it should be for the 80 to be -- could -- if you'd.

 7             Could it be that for the 80 Serbs who deserted that that is

 8     approximately 55 per cent, that for the 15 Croats it's approximately

 9     10 per cent, and that together with the 35 per cent of Muslims that you

10     would come to 100 per cent, approximately?  Is that how I have to

11     reinterpret these percentages?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely, that's an error.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Numerically, no; but the

15     percentage, yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours, to be so vigilant.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I would offer then this document to be MFI'd.

22     Probably it would -- should -- those percentages should be corrected

23     first.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  How we should do that is still -- or perhaps

25     if the parties would agree on it, then later on we could perhaps make a

Page 37511

 1     new version of this document with the agreement of the parties

 2     implemented in it, and then of course it's not the document by the expert

 3     witness any further but it is a document agreed upon by the parties on --

 4     initially based on the expert's table.

 5             Madam Registrar, the MFI number would be?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D5758 receives number D1171,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             Now, on the page of the expert -- Mr. Gojkovic's report, in

11     English version 9, and in B/C/S version 8, we can find a document marked

12     as 1D5759 and if we have this one on our screens, please.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gojkovic, we see another table here, and it

14     says the numerical overview of the movement of soldiers of the

15     1st Pontoon Battalion of the 1st Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska.

16             Could you please tell us who drafted the table, who filled in the

17     information, and what does it -- what sort of information does it

18     present.

19        A.   The table is absolutely the same as the table of the

20     1st Engineers Regiment.  I drafted it, and the information was entered

21     into the table by Lieutenant-Colonel Zeljko Strukar.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it possible to have the English of the table?

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The English one is exactly the B/C/S version, the

24     table itself, but the explanation in English should be -- if we turn the

25     page, yes, then we have the English explanation.

Page 37512

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, as a matter of fact, it's a kind of an agenda

 2     for translating B/C/S into English, what the keys are.  It's not very

 3     easy for us to work with, Mr. Lukic, but ...

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know why the first table was translated and

 5     the second one is not, but --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Neither I do, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I will check who did this.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Who did not do it.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Who did not do it, exactly.  But I still think it's

10     easier, even for Your Honours, to see the table without keys than to see

11     keys without the table.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It depends on the question what you want to do

13     with the document.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I already put my question, Your Honour, and I want to

15     hear from our witness what's the importance of this document, how it was

16     composed.  He already said that he composed the chart, the table, and

17     that somebody else filled it in.  And if can he also explain what does it

18     describes, actually.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gojkovic, could you please tell us, first of

20     all, why did you separate the pontoon battalion from the 1st Engineers

21     Regiment, why was there a separate table made, and could you please

22     explain something about the table?

23        A.   These were two different -- two separate war units, independent

24     ones, absolutely, which had separate war-time assignments.  One is the

25     engineers regiment's task and the other one is the pontoon battalion.

Page 37513

 1        Q.   Could you please tell us again something about the column of the

 2     deserters.  We can see here that the calculation is correct in

 3     percentages.  I think it's correct here.  So could you please tell us

 4     again whether the fact that Muslims and Croats who had left the unit were

 5     not punished also applies to this unit or was the situation different in

 6     the field?

 7        A.   No, absolutely, they were not punished.  We did not even stop

 8     anyone from leaving the Army of Republika Srpska.  If they wanted to

 9     leave, absolutely, whoever left -- whoever stayed, they could stay - I

10     mean the Muslims and the Croats.  But if they wanted to leave, we never

11     stopped them.

12             And I can also add something that's important here.  Throughout

13     the war, the 1st Krajina Corps Engineers Regiment chief of a section was

14     Strukar, Zeljko, and then sometime until August another commanding

15     officer was a Muslim.  Things were absolutely clear in this matter.

16     There was no discrimination at all.

17             MR. LUKIC:  We would just offer this document before the break,

18     and I can see that it's a break time.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But before we take that break, Mr. Lukic, the

20     right side - that is, those remaining in the unit - has just disappeared

21     on this -- it's just not there, which is -- it starts with "osta" and

22     then under it "u je" and that is supposed to be at the far right side of

23     this table and it disappeared.  And it disappeared.  You see that,

24     Mr. Lukic?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I do now.

Page 37514

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So if you want us to consider these tables, then it

 2     should be complete tables, and the B/C/S version is not any better.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I can see that now, yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  So, therefore, the Chamber would highly appreciate

 5     if before asking questions about tables you would look at them and to see

 6     what I see in one minute that they're incomplete.

 7             But then we'll take a break.

 8             Witness, we'll take a break.  We'd like to see you back in 20

 9     minutes from now.  You may follow the usher.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.26 p.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into

15     the courtroom again.

16             Mr. Traldi.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Just to use the time, Mr. President, I'd undertaken

18     to consider over the break whether we did want to know the remaining

19     name, and we do.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You do?

21             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You would like to know that name?

23             MR. TRALDI:  Yeah.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll invite the witness to --

25             Mr. Lukic, if I expressed what in itself would not be a

Page 37515

 1     sufficient reason to keep something confidential, is there any other

 2     matter which would support any such confidentiality?

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I think we should ask this witness.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Well, the witness gave the reason already.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I'm not aware of anything else.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             Witness, you earlier referred to a person you approached when you

 9     said you'd rather not give his name because he's still an active-duty

10     officer.  Now, that in itself is not a sufficient reason to not give his

11     name.  So if there are no other reasons to keep his name confidential,

12     you're invited to tell us what his name is.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.  It is

14     Colonel Sinnik [phoen] Zeljko, an engineer.  He works in Sarajevo.

15     That's it.  He was company commander in the Zvornik Brigade otherwise.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And could you repeat the name.  You said it

17     was Colonel Zeljko.  Is that --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sinnik is his last name, Zeljko is

19     his first name.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  I would like to go back to this MFI D1171, and we

23     have proposed percentages:  For Serbs, 80 should be 54.79; for Croat, 15

24     percentage should be 10.27; and for Muslims, 51 --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  One, second, Mr. Lukic.  What exactly are we now

Page 37516

 1     dealing with?  What column are we in?  What --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  "Deserters."

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  "Deserters," yes.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Where we had wrong percentages, Your Honour.  No --

 5             JUDGE FLUGGE:  But not the right --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we have -- do not have the right document before

 7     us at this moment.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  If we can have D1171.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Which was marked for identification.  And could it

10     be ... deserters.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Under "deserters," column that starts on the

12     left-hand side with 1:  Serbs has number of 80, and the percentage should

13     be 54.79 according to our calculations, and we expect the Prosecution to

14     check it.

15             Under column 2, Croats:  Number is 15, percentage should be

16     10.27.

17             In column 3, Muslims:  Number of men is 51, and percentage should

18     be 34.93.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's exactly what I said before, although

20     not with that precision, that it would be 55, 10, and 35.  That's -- but,

21     of course, you now gave it in the further details.

22             MR. LUKIC:  And --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please --

24             MR. LUKIC:  We are working on this, the next document we called,

25     which is 1D5759.  The last column was missing, where it should be shown

Page 37517

 1     how many men remained in the unit until the end of the war.  So if we can

 2     MFI that one and hopefully we'll have the correct version by tomorrow.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be D1172, Your Honours.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  MFI.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.  Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Just very briefly, the Prosecution has checked and

10     accepts Mr. Lukic's calculations.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As a matter of fact, most of the percentages

12     are not up to the lower -- the final digits, but lets leave it to that.

13     It's now more or less accurate.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I think it would be more

16     clear, even those two lists, if we go through the next four documents,

17     and I will call 65 ter number 1D5766.  It's list of soldiers of Muslim

18     ethnicity who were members of the 1st Engineering Regiment of the VRSK,

19     1st Krajina Corps, with the records of their movement during the war.

20             In the report, those -- this document can be found in English

21     version on page 52, and in B/C/S version on page 51 and further.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gojkovic, do you see this?  It is page 51,

23     53 of your report.  It's a list that you can see on the screen here.  It

24     is soldiers of Muslim ethnicity who were members of the 1st Engineer

25     Regiment of the 1st Krajina Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska with

Page 37518

 1     records of their movement during the war.  Could you please tell us who

 2     compiled this table on the basis of what?

 3        A.   I compiled the table on the basis of VOB-8; that is to say, a

 4     database that was kept in the 1st Engineer Regiment.  This information

 5     was also entered for me by Lieutenant-Colonel Zeljko Strukar.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I ask a question, Mr. Lukic.

 7             Mr. Gojkovic, number 3, Arzemovic [phoen], Arzemovic, you say he

 8     was a member of the VRS from the 24th of September, 1991, to the 3rd of

 9     December, 1991?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was the VRS in existence in 1991?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No, it was the JNA.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but then here you're not talking about the

14     JNA.  The heading says "Engineer Regiment of the VRS 1st Krajina Corps."

15     So you're not talking about the JNA here.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.  But it was very hard

17     to make a distinction through these lists.  The engineer regiment was

18     established on the 17th of September, 1991, and later on it became part

19     of the 1st Krajina Corps.  But it was a unit of the former JNA.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sure most of the people who were in the VRS

21     were former members of the JNA, but all I'm saying is that there was no

22     such thing as the VRS in 1991.  Anyway, we have noted the point.

23             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are right.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you verify the accuracy of this data yourself,

Page 37519

 1     Witness?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   Let me ask you about line 4, for instance.  Let us deal with this

 6     document quickly on that basis.  It says Alija Jasar, son of Redzo,

 7     20th of May, 1992, that's when he came to the unit.  The 22nd of June,

 8     1992, that's when he left the unit.  And it says "transfer."

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   Do you know where it was that he was transferred to?

11        A.   Unfortunately, regrettably I couldn't find that in the VOB-8 and

12     that's why I didn't record it.  It's probably a mistake on the part of

13     the desk officer for the ORMOB, so I didn't want to forge anything.  I

14     simply copied what I found in the VOB-8.

15        Q.   20 says Boric, Dzenad, and son of Fuad, from the 28th of May,

16     1992, only until the 1st of June, 1992.

17             What does it say here?  What is written there, the transfer to

18     the 327th Inzb, what does that mean?

19        A.   The 327th Motorised Brigade in Derventa.  The regiment received

20     orders to establish an engineering battalion from parts of the regiment.

21     Preparations for the corridor were underway then, and then we transferred

22     part of our unit there.

23        Q.   Then and why does it say 327?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we first go to the next page in English.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry.

Page 37520

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could you please make a little pause between

 2     question and answer and answer and question.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   So number 20, it says that 327th Inzb?

 5        A.   The 327th is a war-time unit of the former JNA that was renamed

 6     the 27th Motorised Brigade of the VRS in Derventa after mobilisation.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The 27th or the 327th?

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You heard the question put by the Judge.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I've got the answer, thanks.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] There's no need to deal with it any further.

13             So do you have anything to add with regard to this list?

14        A.   On page -- actually, number 142.  I actually highlighted that.

15     This is an officer who until August 1992 was a battalion commander.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we see page number 142, please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, the number is 142.  In

18     terms of this list, that is the 142nd person on this list.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In B/C/S -- actually, we already have

20     it.  We already have it.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Not in B/C/S yet.

22             MR. LUKIC:  It's the last number on this page in B/C/S.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 142.  That's right.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Is that what you were talking about?  Nalic, Ramo.  It says that

Page 37521

 1     he deserted, that he left on the 10th of July, 1992?

 2        A.   No, that's a mistake.  He was transferred to Belgrade.  He had a

 3     problem.  Some soldiers attacked him when they were on mission and after

 4     that we sent him to Belgrade, so the unit literally sent him to Belgrade.

 5        Q.   Did he come back after that?

 6        A.   No, no, he went to third countries.

 7        Q.   And the other information here, is that all right in this table?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  At this moment, we will offer this document into

10     evidence, Your Honour.

11             MR. TRALDI:  No objections.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D5766 receives number D1173,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

16             Witness, do you have any explanation compared to other data we've

17     seen that the number of Muslim soldiers that are reported here as members

18     of the VRS, either because they were already in the same units in the JNA

19     or even sometimes entering after the beginning of the war, why the

20     percentage was relatively high compared to what we've seen in other

21     units?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for other units in the Army of

23     Republika Srpska, I really don't know what the situation was.  I never

24     dealt with that.  I didn't look at this information.  I didn't have an

25     opportunity to do so.

Page 37522

 1             What is -- actually, those members of the Muslim and Croat

 2     peoples who went to war with us in September 1991, most of them stayed on

 3     with us until the end of the war.

 4             There's just one thing I need to tell you here:  At the time, the

 5     chief of engineering in the 1st Corps was Colonel Hasanovic, who really

 6     insisted on that, to keep as many Muslims and Croats in the Army of

 7     Republika Srpska as possible.  I personally and my colleagues after me, I

 8     think that we all treated these people very fairly and properly.  To this

 9     day, I have very fair and good relations with these people.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Another question is:  If I just look at the page

11     which is on my screen now in the B/C/S, which goes from 90 to 142, I

12     already see seven Muslim soldiers who joined the unit at the 9th of

13     October, 1995.

14             Could you tell us what specifically happened on that day that

15     there was a -- well, relatively large influx of Muslim soldiers in the

16     unit on the 9th of October, 1995, which was just before the end of the

17     war?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were probably young people

19     who were pursuing studies or their education and then they were mobilised

20     and sent to these units.  And also they were volunteers in any case.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you earlier said:  Well, we treated these

22     people very well.  Now the VRS was, if I could say so, in many instances

23     involved in operations or military activity against Muslim units or Croat

24     units.  So, therefore, if you say we treated those Muslims well, that

25     other factor, that the VRS was often involved in a military dispute with,

Page 37523

 1     apart from Croatian forces also Muslim force, remains.

 2             Do you have any explanation as to why Muslim soldiers apparently

 3     in larger numbers than as found elsewhere joined in an army which was

 4     engaged in many instances in military activity against Muslim units?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, it was a very

 6     complex situation, and in a way it was different from area to area.  We

 7     had a pretty clear situation in these units.  We provided engineering

 8     support in combat, so our situation was pretty clear and we didn't have

 9     any problems to carry this out.

10             As for combat assignments, we were carrying them out literally

11     from the western Krajina area, the western part of the B and H, all the

12     way down to Trebinje.  I personally participated in all of that, and

13     really I cannot speak about other units but that is my experience in

14     these units, and I didn't have any problems like that.  There was mutual

15     confidence.  These relationships were built right at the beginning, so we

16     didn't have any problems with the people.  Even people who were leaving

17     the units, we saw them off fairly clearly.  We parted on good terms.

18             And there is one more thing.  Testifying to the truthfulness of

19     this is that the main operative in our staff throughout the whole war was

20     a Croat, and nobody considered him to be any different than anybody else

21     who was carrying out their combat assignments.  This was the operations

22     officer.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             Please proceed.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a follow-up question because I didn't

Page 37524

 1     understand one of your previous answers to the question of Judge Orie.

 2             You said with respect to the 9th of October, 1995:

 3             "These were probably young people who were pursuing studies or

 4     their education and then they were mobilised..."

 5             You said "they were probably young people."  Do you have any

 6     factual knowledge or is it just an assumption?  What is the significance

 7     of the 9th of October, 1995?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this.  I know from

 9     that time that a student brigade was formed, you know.  A number of

10     students were called up.  They were mobilised.  So I assume that a number

11     of people from there came to my unit.  That's all I can say.  I don't

12     have any other information.  It is my assumption.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic.

15             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             If we can have 1D5767 on our screens, please.  And it's -- we can

18     find that in the work of Mr. Gojkovic on the pages, in English version,

19     59, and page 55 in B/C/S version as Attachment I.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] We see a list here of soldiers of Croatian

21     ethnicity, and these are records of their movement during the war.  These

22     are members of the 1st Engineer Regiment of the VRS 1st Krajina Corps.

23     We can see that the document ends with number 123.

24             Under number 10, we see a bold entry.  Is there any reason why

25     some names are in bold?

Page 37525

 1        A.   Only to show the people who were in the unit until the end of the

 2     war.  This means they stayed in the unit until the end of the war.

 3     Either they were people who were returned to the Ministry of Defence or

 4     who were discharged.

 5        Q.   When you say "returned to MO," what does that mean?

 6        A.   It means that they were returned to the Ministry of Defence.

 7     Somewhere it's written "returned to the MO," and somewhere it says

 8     "discharged," so I didn't want to change the information which was

 9     already entered in the VOB-8, which you have.

10        Q.   Are the officers on this list as well or was there a separate

11     list for them?

12        A.   This list includes everybody:  Officers, NCOs, and soldiers, all

13     together.

14        Q.   And does this list contain only those soldiers of Croatian

15     ethnicity or are there any others?

16        A.   No, it's all soldiers of Croatian ethnicity?

17             MR. LUKIC:  We would offer this document into evidence,

18     Your Honour.  We would offer this document into evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D5767 receives number D1174,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  If we can see 1D5768 now, please.  We can

24     find that document on the pages, in English version, 64, and in B/C/S

25     version, page 58.  And it's Attachment K in the work of Mr. Gojkovic.

Page 37526

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gojkovic, we have a list here of soldiers of

 2     Muslim ethnicity who were members of the 1st Pontoon Battalion of the VRS

 3     1st Krajina Corps with records of their movement during the war.

 4     Ferid Glisic is in the first row.  He came to the unit on the 20th of

 5     May, 1992, left the unit on the 26th of February, 1996, and it says here

 6     that he was demobilised.

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   The source of your information for this table, could you please

 9     tell us what that was?

10        A.   It was also the VOB-8 of the battalion.  I just happened to know

11     this person.  He worked in a company in Gradiska, and the director called

12     me and asked me to release him because he had to do something that had to

13     do with a certain job.  They couldn't do without him.  So there were

14     cases like that where the directors or presidents of municipalities would

15     request that certain people be returned to them.

16        Q.   Is there anything characteristic about this list?

17        A.   Yes.  Under entry number 19, is there the name Zoran Jazovic, son

18     of Ibrahim.  He came to me during the time of the JNA, I personally

19     accepted him, and he stayed as commander of the amphibian company until

20     the end of the war.  He was literally carrying out assignments from the

21     western part of the Krajina down to Bijeljina.  He was a very good man, a

22     technologist by profession, and I'm still on very good terms with him.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC:  We would offer this document into evidence.  I said

25     we would offer this document into evidence, Your Honour.

Page 37527

 1             MR. TRALDI:  No objections.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D5768 receives number D1175,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 7             If we can have 1D5769 on our screens, please.  And from the

 8     expert report of Mr. Gojkovic, it's on page 66 in English version and 59

 9     in B/C/S version.  It's Attachment L.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Again, the 1st Pontoon Battalion.  There is a

11     list of soldiers of Croatian ethnicity with records of their movement

12     during the war.

13             Could you please tell us again what the source of the information

14     is and who drafted the table, who entered the data?

15        A.   I drafted the table, and the sources are the records of the VOB-8

16     records, and Strukar Zeljko again was the one who entered the data into

17     the table and I verified it.

18        Q.   Is there anything characteristic for this table?

19        A.   Yes.  You can see here entry 30, Tomislav Sambol.

20        Q.   Just one moment, please.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page in both

22     versions on our screens.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have Tomislav Sambol, entry 30.

24     He was an NCO diver.  And then again we have 33, Franc, Sasnja, he was

25     Slovenian, also a diver.  Right now is he a deputy in the council of the

Page 37528

 1     people in the Assembly of Republika Srpska -- the chamber of the people.

 2     They were in an action, and I would just like to mention it, they were

 3     saving a pontoon bridge from the territory of Croatia after an attack,

 4     and they were bringing the bridge to the other side, and this is

 5     something that they carried out successfully.

 6             There was another Croat who, along with some Serbs, took part in

 7     this action.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We would offer this document into evidence as well.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I just have a small -- a little bit of confusion.

11     I'd understood this to be a list of ethnic Croatian as it was introduced.

12     We had two examples given, and the only one of those that the witness

13     gave an ethnicity for was Slovenian rather than Croatian.  So I'm just

14     curious if the witness could be asked if he verified the other

15     ethnicities on the list.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you briefly explore this matter, Mr. Lukic,

17     and then we'll see the confusion still is present.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Now that my colleague has reminded me, I just wanted to ask you

20     about Sasnja Franc.  Where is he from?  Is he from Croatia or from

21     Slovenia?

22        A.   He is a --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear whether he was a

24     Croat or a Slovenian.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I asked if he was a Slovenian by nationality or a

Page 37529

 1     Croat from Slovenia.

 2             I asked whether -- in B/C/S whether this gentleman --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a Croat from Slovenia.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Sasnja Franc is --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Number 33.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  -- a Slovenian by ethnicity or a Croat from Slovenia,

 7     and Mr. Gojkovic said that he -- he is a Croat from Slovenia and that he

 8     is, as a member of Croatian people, member of VRS assembly these days.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you referring to number 33 on the list?

10             MR. LUKIC:  Number 33, yes, Your Honour.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, chamber of the people, that's

12     correct.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Where?

15        A.   Of Republika Srpska.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, does this remove your concerns you

17     expressed earlier?  It was not a real opposition, but ...

18             MR. TRALDI:  Yeah, it removes the confusion about that example.

19     I'm just checking if the witness had said that he verified the other

20     ones, which I don't think -- I'm not -- and he had, in fact, so I'll not

21     object to admission.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D5769 receives number D1176,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

Page 37530

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Gojkovic, the previous two tables that we looked at, the

 3     summary tables, were they drafted on the basis of these four tables or on

 4     the basis of something else?

 5        A.   It was done on the basis of the VOB-8.  That was the database.  I

 6     didn't look at anything else.

 7        Q.   Now I wanted to go back to your report, 1D5892.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at page 9 in the

 9     B/C/S and page 10 in the English version.

10        Q.   In this part that is entitled:  "Analysis of Training of Engineer

11     Units of the 1st Krajina Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska Between

12     1991 and 1995," the last paragraph in both versions reads as follows:

13             "The engineer units of the corps were absolutely trained to carry

14     out any combat tasks relating to engineering support for combat

15     operations, including demolition of bridges, road sections, tunnels,

16     embankments, buildings, and so on."

17             You assert that on the basis of what?

18        A.   The peacetime engineers regiment, the 293rd of the JNA, later on

19     the first such regiment of the VRS, if there were to be an attack by the

20     eastern bloc at the time, it would have held three key facilities on the

21     Sava river and the task was to destroy them, if necessary; that was the

22     bridge in Slavonski Brod; it was the bridge across the Sava river in

23     Gradiska; and it was the bridge in Jasenovac that linked Slavonia,

24     Bosnia, and Baranja.  Regularly every two years a unit from there, a

25     reserve unit, of course, would go to these facilities and simulate that

Page 37531

 1     demolition.  That is one point.

 2             Another thing.  In 1986, and I forgot to write that here, the

 3     commander of the peacetime regiment was a man who was later a general,

 4     Radivoje Tomovic, he is deceased.  He carried out a methodological

 5     exercise in the village of Cerovljani at the request of the municipality

 6     of Gradiska to destroy a former JNA barracks, and he accepted that and he

 7     took advantage of that opportunity holding an exercise there to see how a

 8     housing facility is destroyed with all members of a war-time unit of the

 9     regiment.

10             Of course, this is what officers were told, commissioned officers

11     from lieutenant to colonel, and then we were all ordered to create the

12     project documentation for that.  And this man precisely, Zeljko Strukar,

13     who was commanders of the pioneers company, was in charge of the actual

14     demolition.  It was filmed.  A crew came from Banja Luka.  I tried to

15     find the footage; however, regrettably I didn't manage to.  It's been

16     misplaced somewhere and this exercise was a successful one, it was

17     carried out, and there was this analysis.  We were all pleased that it

18     was all done properly.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I [inaudible] on the record?

21             Did you say in the municipality of?  Where did this thing take

22     place, in the municipality of?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gradiska.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say another thing.  The

Page 37532

 1     mentor of that exercise says was a colonel, Colonel Tomovic, who on

 2     several occasions was a member of peace missions with the JNA abroad.

 3     After the catastrophic earthquake in Banja Luka in 1979 [as interpreted]

 4     [Realtime error read "1997"], he personally demolished many buildings in

 5     Banja Luka.  He is a man who had vast experience and we could learn a lot

 6     from him as we did.  Truth to tell, he was retired at that time.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   The transcript says that the earthquake was in 1997.

10        A.   In 1969.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, it seems that you've have forgotten from

12     before the summer recess that you should not speak aloud.  It is now the

13     second time today.  Refrain from doing it.

14             Please proceed.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know what?  When we worked with

16     young recruits, training went on for six months, the final part of the

17     training was with proper mines and explosives, and within that we

18     destroyed elements, materials, and so on; that is to say, for example,

19     rails, steel structures, et cetera.  That was done with every group.  But

20     it is the reserve force that was focused on during this training.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We now heard a lot about the training and how to

22     properly demolish a building or -- is there any dispute about VRS or JNA

23     units being trained in properly doing it?  Apart from how it was done.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Without speaking to which units or anything like

25     that, Your Honour, there's certainly no dispute that some units in the

Page 37533

 1     VRS and JNA were trained pursuant to the JNA guide-lines on demolishing

 2     buildings.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm intervening because, again, what

 4     seems to have happened, at least if we read the report of the expert

 5     well, which is not in accordance with the rule demolishing buildings, and

 6     so therefore to say whether they were trained, what the rules were,

 7     et cetera, apparently the only thing, and that seems to be not in

 8     dispute, is that the units who could have properly demolished the

 9     buildings were trained to do that.  Whether they finally did the improper

10     or the fast way of demolishing buildings, of course, is a totally

11     different question.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] To the best of your knowledge, if down the chain

15     of command an order would arrive to destroy something, in Krajina which

16     units would be in charge of that?

17        A.   Well, such an order, I mean, certainly would not have gone beyond

18     the link in the chain where I was.  Well, truth to tell, I received --

19     well, it was in July 1992 that I took over, and then in October 1992 I

20     became chief of engineering.  And then until July 1992, I was commander

21     of the pontoon battalion, and at that time I held the point where the

22     Sava was crossed to Western Slavonia.  We were in Western Slavonia at

23     that point in time.  You see?

24        Q.   Until when were you there, in Western Slavonia?

25        A.   Until -- until the beginning of July.  So I got one unit out of

Page 37534

 1     Western Slavonia, and I sent them to -- to the corridor, Kotorsko, and a

 2     unit from Slavonski Brod left it.  So I didn't even know where I was

 3     going.  So this was before Operation Corridor.  And part of the engineer

 4     units of the engineer regiment and the armoured brigade, they were still

 5     in Western Slavonia where they were taking care of minefields, de-mining

 6     them.  We are thinking of that.  We are getting rid of roadblocks and so

 7     on and so forth.  I personally was taken aback by this.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, can you please look at your question at

 9     page 42, lines 17 to 19, and tell us whether you've got an answer to that

10     question.

11             MR. LUKIC:  I haven't got an answer, no.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you likely to pursue that?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   So, Mr. Gojkovic, if something was supposed to be demolished --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   -- legally --

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   -- who would receive this order down the chain of command in the

21     Bosnian Krajina?

22        A.   The chief of engineers.  At that time, Colonel Kosanovic, who was

23     chief of engineering at the time, who had to deal with this and send it

24     to the subordinate units.  So he was supposed to submit it to the

25     commander for signature and then he would send it to the subordinate

Page 37535

 1     units.

 2        Q.   Now let us take a look at page 11 in B/C/S and page 12 in

 3     English.  That is number 7:  "Organisation and Technology of Demolition

 4     in Urban Areas."

 5             Over here in the previous preparations for demolition, you

 6     mentioned all of that.  You mentioned, like now, the order --

 7        A.   Exactly.

 8        Q.   -- and you say gathering project documentation and so on and so

 9     forth.

10             In the papers that you reviewed that were written up by

11     Mr. Riedlmayer, did you notice something that had to do with one of the

12     facilities that you dealt with during the these preparations?  Was there

13     an order?  Was there project documentation that had been gathered.  Did

14     you find anything like that?

15        A.   I really did not find any such document.  I reviewed everything,

16     I read all of this, and really, it is a huge task, and you gave me this

17     task for seven hours.  And had I not taken a lot of people to work with

18     me, I couldn't have handled this.

19        Q.   This is what was allocated to you by the Registry and that is how

20     the Defence has been functioning.  As you were working on this report,

21     did you look for project documentation?

22        A.   Truth to tell, when I was given this task, I was really

23     tormented.  I wondered where I should start from and what I should show

24     here, which building I should deal with in greater detail and where I

25     should calculate the minimum amount of explosives for the unhindered, if

Page 37536

 1     I can put it that way, leveling of the facility involved.

 2             I first addressed the town planning institute of Banja Luka

 3     because I wanted to work on the basis of Riedlmayer's report, and he

 4     mentioned Arnaudija, a mosque at Pobrdje that was destroyed twice; and at

 5     the same time within the scope of five minutes, it was totally destroyed

 6     together with the Ferhadija.

 7             I went to the institute there.  And as -- they were looking for

 8     documentation for Arnaudija that Riedlmayer refers to, Mr. Riedlmayer.

 9     However, they said to me that this project did not exist, that this is a

10     mosque from the 15th century or something like that, but that there is a

11     theoretical possibility that there is part of the project documentation

12     for the Ferhadija mosque because it was reconstructed after the 1969

13     earthquake, and that encouraged me to work in that direction.

14             I submitted a request to the municipal organs of Banja Luka to

15     let me see the project documentation for that building.  I also wanted to

16     deal with the Petricevac church and monastery in Banja Luka that had also

17     been destroyed, and both are within the municipality where I live, so it

18     was quite simple for me to be running around and trying to find all this.

19             When I returned to the municipality in Banja Luka, some people

20     laughed at me and said:  What are you looking for?  And then I asked

21     Novica Vujicic to come with me.  He's an architect and his rank is that

22     of lieutenant-colonel.  He also helped me in this effort.  And since he

23     is very well versed and he is the number one architect in Banja Luka, he

24     said:  There has to be this documentation because Ferhadija was

25     reconstructed in the 1970s, and it was an architect from Sarajevo who was

Page 37537

 1     in charge of that project.  And we spent about ten days searching for it.

 2     It was not in the archives of Banja Luka.  It was God knows where.

 3             And then the project for Petricevac, we did not have such a hard

 4     time finding that.  Once we got our hands on all of that, we could embark

 5     on this task more thoroughly.  And I was really pleased.  I never entered

 6     the mosque before.  And I saw how thick the walls were, and also the

 7     minaret, how it was reconstructed, what the dimensions were, what

 8     materials were used to build it.

 9             Also the Petricevac monastery.  For example, now that we're

10     speaking of all these details, when we speak of construction materials

11     that were used for building these buildings, for years I saw the

12     Petricevac monastery from the highway, and I thought that it was

13     monolithic.  Later on when I saw these documents, I realised it was

14     rather fragile.  It was built of some kind of elements that are inserted

15     into concrete for hydro isolation and the construction is pretty light,

16     and you see that it could be demolished very easily, even mechanically.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic I'm looking at the clock.  I think we

18     should take a break.

19             Could the witness follow the usher.  We'd like to see you back in

20     20 minutes.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, your last question, which was did you

23     look for project documentation, ended up in a totally unstructured

24     monologue of two pages, where the Chamber easily will be lost in

25     understanding what exactly you were seeking to have established.  Could I

Page 37538

 1     invite you to be focused in your questioning and also not to repeat many

 2     things that are found in the report already.

 3             We'll take a break and we'll resume at quarter to 2.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Lukic, as far as time is concerned.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I was informed that I have one hour left, but I will

10     finish before that time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know if I would --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Formally you have one hour left.  That means that

14     you used --

15             MR. LUKIC:  Hour and a half.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Hour and a half.  But some of the time, which was

17     taken by the Judges was, as a matter of fact, to correct a few

18     shortcomings.  So therefore, you are encouraged to see whether you could

19     finish well within that hour.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

24             Can we have on our screens 1D5761, please.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you tendering 1D5892?

Page 37539

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I am, Your Honour.  Thank you.  But it's report?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the -- that's the --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  It's coming at the end.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- report and we do that at the end, yes.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   It says that this document is the ground plan of the Ferhadija

 7     mosque.  You can see it on your screen; isn't that right?

 8             And I wanted to show you another document.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That was 1D5764, this document,

10     before we move on.

11        Q.   Yes, let's just wait till we see it in English.  It says:

12             "Plan for the restoration of the Ferhadija mosque in Banja Luka."

13             At the bottom, it states 1988 as the date when the document was

14     created.  These two documents that we saw, the restoration of the mosque

15     and the plan of the mosque, did you receive that at the same address,

16     these two documents?

17             They didn't hear you.  Your answer was not recorded.

18        A.   Yes, that is correct.  All of this was at the city administration

19     of Banja Luka.

20        Q.   This document that we see in front of you -- in front of us, can

21     we now look at page 4, please.  You told us before that the Ferhadija

22     mosque is larger than the usual mosques in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the

23     time.

24        A.   That is correct.

25        Q.   Could you please tell us what would be the method used to

Page 37540

 1     demolish the Ferhadija mosque other than explosives, or did you have to

 2     use explosives?  Could you please explain that?

 3        A.   If you take into account that the Ferhadija mosque was built of

 4     stone, or limestone actually, a rock that is formed by sedimentation in

 5     cold water, in this case in Vrbas, near Banja Luka, so this is a building

 6     that, other than the limestone and mortar, has nothing else, and the

 7     building was shaken by an earthquake in 1969, and you could see the

 8     cracks in the building, and this is something that was restored later.

 9             So this building, no matter how imposing and stable it seems, I

10     guarantee that it could have been demolished mechanically and it was not

11     necessary to use explosives at all.  There is no reinforcing bars in the

12     building at all -- actually, there are some reinforcing bars that were

13     used to repair the cracks that appeared on the Ferhadija after the

14     earthquake.  So there was steel bars that were used to reinforce the

15     building, so that when the Ferhadija was mined, the minaret remained

16     standing.  These bars prevented it from completely toppling over.  For a

17     week, for seven days, it remained at an angle of some 65 degrees and it

18     did not topple over, and that was due to the reinforcement that was used

19     in order to repair the building after the earthquake.

20        Q.   I would like now like to back to --

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to

22     tendered these two documents.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D5761 receives number D1177.

25             And document 1D5764 receives number D1178, Your Honours.

Page 37541

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D1177 and D1178 are admitted.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 3             If we can go back to the document 1D5892, which is the report of

 4     this witness.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Again, we can see your report.  We're going to

 6     look at page 11 in the B/C/S and page 12 of the English version.  This is

 7     the part that you entitled:  "Final Preparations of the Structure for

 8     Demolition."  And we can see here what these final preparations are.  You

 9     talked about providing direct physical security, making the places for

10     mine drills, drilling mine holes, drilling in walls and other

11     load-bearing elements of the building, making and placing explosive

12     charges, preparing the detonation stations.

13             You did the calculations for the Ferhadija, so could please tell

14     us whether in that particular case the demolition was conducted in this

15     way, the preparation was done in this way, and were you able to recognise

16     if any of this was done based on looking at the photographs which you saw

17     in Mr. Riedlmayer's report?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, isn't the answer perfectly clear in the

19     report that this is not how it was prepared and that is not how it

20     happened, so therefore why ask the witness again?

21             Unless you would disagree with me, Witness, that I clearly read

22     in your report that this is not the way it was done.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, is it only for Ferhadija, or you

24     consider that this answer was given for all shrines [Overlapping

25     speakers] ... described.

Page 37542

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm focusing at this moment -- okay.  Let's ask the

 2     witness.

 3             Was this, on the basis of all these calculations, did I read well

 4     in your report that this is not how the Ferhadija was prepared for

 5     destruction and finally destroyed?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely so.  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's then move on, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   All the other buildings that were looked at, did you come to the

10     same conclusion as for the Ferhadija, that they were not -- the drilling

11     was not done in the proper way?  And can you please tell us what your

12     conclusions were, how were these buildings demolished?

13             Just wait for one second because I think my learned friend

14     Mr. Traldi has an objection?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. TRALDI:  I'd like a little bit more specificity as to all the

17     other buildings.

18             Now, my immediate inference is that it refers to those that are

19     included in Attachment P of the report, which is a selection of some of

20     Mr. Riedlmayer's formatted entries as best I can tell, but I'd like it to

21     be clear on the record.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could that be clarified.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger is also not used yet to the post-recess

25     practices; that is, to switch off your phone when being in court.

Page 37543

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gojkovic, did you draw your conclusions only

 4     for those buildings in your P annex or for all the buildings that were

 5     looked at by Mr. Riedlmayer, and what is your conclusion?

 6        A.   My conclusion is based on all of the 94 buildings looked at by

 7     Mr. Riedlmayer --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the whole answer

 9     by the witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness repeat.  You started by saying

11     your conclusion is based on all the 94 buildings looked at by

12     Mr. Riedlmayer, and could you repeat what you then said?

13             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  We're not able to hear the witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, is the -- your microphone is on.  Could you

16     please again repeat what you said.  Then perhaps move the microphone --

17     yes.  Speak clearly into the microphone.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I based my

19     conclusions on all 94 demolished places of worship in the B and H

20     territory that were looked at by Mr. Riedlmayer in his report.  I studied

21     all the documents very carefully, of course, as much as I could, by

22     looking at the photographs and by reading what Mr. Riedlmayer wrote, and

23     it was not all that simple to do.  There is a lot missing.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   You did not deal with all 94 objects in your P annex?

Page 37544

 1        A.   No, I did not.

 2        Q.   Why not?

 3        A.   The 94 buildings looked at by the expert, I took the most

 4     characteristic ones as far as I was concerned going by the way in which

 5     they were demolished.  I looked at the demolition that was done in what I

 6     would describe as a criminal way without any particular model, system, or

 7     method.

 8        Q.   And what would be the prevalent way that this was done?  What was

 9     your conclusion as to how these buildings, primarily mosques, were

10     demolished?

11        A.   In most cases when mosques in BH were demolished, it was minarets

12     that were attacked first and foremost, and too much explosive was being

13     used, enough to destroy the entire building.  Now, it depended on where

14     the explosive was placed.  The minaret would fall either on the building

15     itself or to the side.

16             Secondly, in most cases when minarets were destroyed, the roofs

17     were damaged too.  Also, in many cases after the building was destroyed,

18     it was also torched -- or rather, it is very difficult to ascertain

19     whether buildings were burned before or after the demolition.

20             At any rate, explosives were placed inside the minaret and at the

21     level of the roof, if I can put it that way.  So the explosive would

22     usually damage the roof or blow it away.  And then, of course, due to the

23     weather conditions - rain, snow, et cetera - you don't know what was

24     destroyed by explosions and what was due simply to the passage of time

25     and the weather conditions involved.  On of the basis of photographs

Page 37545

 1     only, it is hard to establish that.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to inform Your Honours that my transcript

 3     is not working anymore for a while, and it's hard for me to follow what's

 4     being entered and what's not.  But I'll move on.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, and I take it that it will be --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I'll try to finish this way.  Hopefully tomorrow

 7     we'll be in a better shape.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What about LiveNote?  Perhaps you can follow on

11     LiveNote, the transcript?

12             MR. LUKIC:  But I need that one for e-court.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.

14             MR. LUKIC:  But thank you anyways.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you ask anybody else for documentation;

16     courts, the police?  Tell us about that.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   What did you get from the police?

19        A.   I asked for -- actually, for this facility, Ferhadija and the

20     Petricevac church, through the Ministry of the Interior, RS.  I asked for

21     the criminal file for these two destroyed buildings, and I used up quite

22     a bit of time because they kept sending me from the court to the SUP to

23     the police and so on, and this went on for days too.  So I studied this

24     case file and there's nothing else but witness statements as far as the

25     destruction of the building is concerned.  However, the record also says

Page 37546

 1     that the on-site investigation included photo documentation; however I

 2     didn't find a single photograph.

 3             When I asked the MUP what this was all about, they told me that

 4     the prosecutor's office took over the entire case file and that that was

 5     the only thing left, and therefore I inserted that here on purpose.  And

 6     nothing can be seen from these statements, literally.  You just see a

 7     guard close to a cafe who said it was blown up at such and such a point

 8     in time and that is why these fragments of the mosque reached this place,

 9     and I was almost hit, and this really has nothing do with --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness is now commenting on reports.  Are they

13     in evidence, Mr. Lukic?

14             MR. LUKIC:  I think so, but I have to locate it exactly where.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because for us to understand the evidence of

16     the witness, we would know what he is commenting on.  Because I saw also

17     in his report that he's quite often commenting on a certain book written

18     by -- forgive me that I've forgotten the name, which as far as I am

19     concerned, is not in evidence.  What's the use of hearing, reading

20     comments on what is not before us?  And this is, of course, now -- I also

21     saw that the witness was complaining but not having access to certain

22     sources.  The report dates from February, and I would have expected the

23     Defence to seek our assistance in order to get access to those sources

24     you consider to be relevant enough to present an expert report on.

25             MR. LUKIC:  In -- it's Attachment N, criminal report composed by

Page 37547

 1     police.  In B/C/S, it's page 65.  I suppose it's page, in English --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that on your list of exhibits?  Is it -- I see

 3     two criminal cases at numbers, the --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- third from the bottom and fourth from the bottom.

 6     Is that what these questions and these answers refer to?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  The first one, the police one, is

 8     1D5770.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And the other one is?

10             MR. LUKIC:  The other one is court file.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the logical way of approaching this is to

12     introduce that report, then to ask the witness exactly what kind of

13     comments he has on it, and then to tender those reports in evidence if

14     there are, of course, no objections to it.  Because now the witness is

15     stating all kind of things about -- but that's apparently then the

16     attachments he is commenting on.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed -- well, perhaps rather not proceed.

19     And take your time to prepare for the last small portion of time left for

20     tomorrow.

21             Witness, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'd like to see you back

22     tomorrow morning, and we hope to be able to conclude your testimony

23     tomorrow.  It's uncertain whether we'll be able to do it.  But before you

24     leave this courtroom, I want to instruct you that you should not speak or

25     communicate in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, whether

Page 37548

 1     that is testimony you've given today or whether that is testimony still

 2     to be given tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.  If that's clear to you,

 3     you may follow the usher, and we expect you back at 9.30 tomorrow

 4     morning.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Unless there's anything to be raised now, we'll

 7     adjourn for the day, and we'll resume until tomorrow, Tuesday, the 11th

 8     of August, courtroom I, 9.30 in the morning.

 9                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.14 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of

11                           August, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.