1 Wednesday, 19 August 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 No preliminaries were announced, but I'd like to briefly move
12 into private session.
13 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Draskovic, I presume.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Good morning.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Draskovic, before you give evidence, the Rules
17 require that you make a solemn declaration. The text of it is now handed
18 out to you. May I invite to make that solemn declaration.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: GOJKO DRASKOVIC
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Draskovic.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Draskovic, you'll first be examined by
1 Mr. Stojanovic. You find Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is
2 counsel for Mr. Mladic.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. For the record, could you please slowly give us your name and
10 A. Gojko Draskovic.
11 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where and when you were
13 A. I was born on the 25th of March, 1964 in the village of Arazi
14 [phoen], municipality of Kalinovik.
15 Q. Mr. Draskovic, where did you live until the war broke out in
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992?
17 A. I lived in Sarajevo. Ozrenska Street, number 79, municipality of
18 Novo Sarajevo.
19 Q. What were you doing before the war broke out in 1992?
20 A. I had a small business.
21 Q. Did you have any kind of military education, training, or perhaps
22 a military rank?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Until the war broke out, were you politically active?
25 A. No. I was a member of the Serb Democratic Party.
1 Q. That year, 1992, did you receive call-up papers? Did you become
2 involved militarily?
3 A. The municipal staff of the Territorial Defence sent me call-up
4 papers in April 1992.
5 Q. When you say the municipal staff of the Territorial Defence, what
6 is this municipality from which you received these call-up papers?
7 A. Novo Sarajevo.
8 Q. What was this first military assignment of yours and practically
9 what unit did you become a member of?
10 A. My first military assignment was as follows. Practically we who
11 lived in that street organised ourselves and guarded our homes until the
12 Army of Republika Srpska was formed. After the Army of Republika Srpska
13 was formed, we remained in the same place. I was a member of the
14 3rd Platoon of the 3rd Company of the 2nd Battalion of the 1st Sarajevo
15 Mechanized Brigade, Sarajevo-Romanija Corps of the Army of
16 Republika Srpska.
17 Q. During these first months after the Army of Republika Srpska was
18 established, did you have any kind of position of leadership? Were you
19 an officer or a soldier?
20 A. At first I was a soldier, a member of the 3rd Platoon, and then
21 towards the end of 1992, I became commander of the 3rd Platoon of the
22 3rd Company and then towards the end of 1993, I became company commander.
23 And sometime around the end of the war when Dayton was signed I was
24 deputy battalion commander until I was demobilised.
25 Q. When you say that you carried out the duty that you refer to,
1 deputy battalion commander, when the peace agreement was signed, what are
2 you referring to?
3 A. One battalion was formed out of two and there was a single
4 command and there was this command of the battalion that tried to take
5 care of all the paperwork for all the soldiers involved.
6 Q. When was it that you were practically demobilised and when did
7 you stop being a member of the VRS?
8 A. I think around the middle of 1996.
9 Q. During the war, did you get any kind of military rank or
11 A. Yes, lieutenant. And in 1994, I was in Banja Luka taking a
12 course for battalion commanders.
13 Q. How long did this military training of yours go on in Banja Luka?
14 A. About a month. And over this short period of time, we managed to
15 learn what was important for commanding a battalion.
16 Q. Do tell us: During these war years, who were the commanders of
17 your battalion?
18 A. First it was Captain Stojanovic, who was battalion commander; and
19 after him, Aleksandr Petrovic.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat the first name you
22 THE WITNESS: Okay. Aleksandr Stojanovic -- no Aleksandr
23 Petrovic, sorry.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the captain you mentioned before what was his
25 family name?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stojanovic.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Could you tell the court who was commander of your brigade during
5 those four years of war?
6 A. Colonel Veljko Stojanovic.
7 Q. It seems there were a lot of Stojanovics in your unit.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Tell us, what was the defence area of your battalion, and by way
10 of clarification, because the Court had an opportunity to see these
11 documents what was the right flank of the defence or area of your
13 A. Vrbanja bridge, or, rather, the Metalija building I think that's
14 what was called. It's been a long time so I have forgotten some things.
15 On the left side there was the barracks, Slavisa Vajner Cica.
16 Q. Could you please tell the Court how big this is in terms of
17 metre, hundreds of metres or kilometres?
18 A. Well, say, 3, 3 and a half kilometres.
19 Q. This entire area, was it all the urban part of Sarajevo?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell us, within that zone, what was the defence area of your
22 company? And do start from the right flank.
23 A. The right flank of defence of my unit was the Zeljeznicar stadium
24 or that area, but Moravska and Ozrenska Street, that intersection where
25 these two streets cross.
1 Q. Your company, did it hold positions in part of Ozrenska Street?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Apart from your company were there other companies within your
4 battalion that practically held positions in Ozrenska Street within their
5 own area of defence?
6 A. There was also the 4th Company, the 5th Company, and the
7 6th Company that later because there were so few people there, became
8 attached to my unit. That's probably one of the longest streets in
9 Sarajevo and that's why three or four companies had to cover the area of
10 Ozrenska Street which was very densely populated, indeed.
11 Q. Please don't hold this against us. We're just waiting for the
12 interpretation so you don't think it's something else. Obviously both of
13 us are fast speakers, so it takes time.
14 Tell us, during the war did you, with your unit - that is to say,
15 your company - did you have any changes of your initial position in the
16 area of defence?
17 A. No. Practically my company consisted of people who lived in that
18 street. We held positions in front of our own homes and practically we
19 were defending that throughout the war, and that is where we were when
20 Dayton was signed. There weren't any changes except perhaps for some
21 slight changes in the line but that was basically due to engineering
22 works rather than any kind of movement as such.
23 Q. Your company, during those four years of war, did it receive any
24 orders that had to do with an offensive, in terms of breaking through
25 enemy positions?
1 A. Never. Practically we were guarding our own homes. That's where
2 we lived. Our line of defence was in front of our homes. That's where
3 we started the war and that's where we ended the war.
4 Q. Your company, how many people were there? I understand that this
5 is a category that changes but give us a rough idea.
6 A. 200 to 250 up to 350 depending on the period involved. There
7 were a lot of combatants there who had been wounded. Some of them were
8 seriously wounded, some of them not so seriously, and then they could not
9 be part of the unit anymore.
10 Q. How many companies did your battalion have?
11 A. Our battalion had six companies. I've already said, the
12 6th Company, towards the end of the war, was attached to the 3rd Company
13 because of the small number of personnel involved.
14 Q. Can you tell us for the sake of precision, if you can remember,
15 when did this reorganisation take place within the battalion; and when
16 was this company attached to the other companies within your battalion?
17 A. I think that was in the second half of 1994.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, when I look at the 65 ter witness
19 summary, then I see that the gist of the evidence of this witness would
20 be that this witness and others were sniped at, that were working squads
21 and what kind of vehicles the other parties have. The organisation of
22 his battalion and whether it changed halfway, yes or no, seems to have
23 little or no relevance for what apparently you want to elicit from this
24 witness. So, therefore, I would -- before we go into such details, which
25 seem to be totally foreign to what you want to establish, I urge you to
1 get to the points which, at least on the basis of the 65 ter summary, are
2 the relevant ones.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We'll get to that, Your Honour,
5 just a few more questions by way of a introduction.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we don't need the details as the -- not --
7 I mean, we've listened to it now for some 15 minutes. All details which,
8 at least I'm unable to link meaningfully with what apparently is the
9 purpose of the calling of this witness. So try to get loose of what you
10 have prepared and come to the relevant points.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.
12 Q. Tell us, what was the intensity of fighting in Ozrenska Street
13 and in the area of defence of your company during those four years of war
14 in view of other parts of the Sarajevo theatre of war?
15 A. Ozrenska Street was certainly one of the most difficult parts of
16 the Sarajevo theatre of war. Practically every day we were exposed to
17 sniping, in particular. Also, the terrain of Ozrenska Street is such
18 that it was hard to protect oneself, especially from snipers.
19 Practically the entire city in front of us and everybody building was a
20 location from which snipers could operate against Ozrenska. If we look
21 at the composition of the company, the average age was 50. People were
22 that age. They had health problems, eyesight problem, hearing problems,
23 so great losses were sustained in Ozrenska Street as I've already said.
24 The battalion covered each and every part of Ozrenska Street, and
25 especially civilians who lived in Ozrenska Street, although there weren't
1 that many of them, were particularly exposed to sniping, to sniper fire.
2 Q. Did you have enough fighters to perform the tasks assigned to
3 your unit?
4 A. It depended. As I said already, age was an issue because the
5 average age was 50. There were very few young people, which was
6 particularly aggravating in an area such as Ozrenska Street. There were
7 never enough of people around and we always needed personnel at Ozrenska
8 Street. Whatever people we had, we organised them and put up resistance,
10 Q. What was the distance between the front lines of your company and
11 the opposing unit on the ABiH side?
12 A. We were quite close. At times, the distance was 30 metres or 50
13 metres or just a street in between the houses. The lines were very
15 Q. From the positions you held where your defence line was, could
16 you observe the origin of sniping on the positions of your unit?
17 A. Sir, we certainly could. We observed and monitored the activity
18 of their snipers. The most serious problem we had was a sniping nest at
19 the so-called Milana Pavkovica motel which was put up during the
20 Olympics. It was very close to our positions and we were constantly
21 exposed to sniping from there. There was also another building across
22 the street from the Zeljeznicar football club stadium and another
23 building at Pera Kosorica Square as well as many others. Basically each
24 and every building was suited for sniping purposes but there were some
25 places where we pointed them out more frequently and we tried to
1 neutralise such sniping nests.
2 Q. Did you have occasion, personally, to observe such sniping
3 positions as the officer in the company?
4 A. Yes I was mostly engaged in observing and reconnoitring and I had
5 to be present constantly as the commander together with my fighters. I
6 personally observed and detected sniping positions so as to caution our
7 soldiers and the civilians moving along the Ozrenska Street, to tell them
8 where danger lay.
9 Q. Please tell the Court if, during the war years, there were any
10 artillery -- there was any artillery fire from the ABiH against your
12 A. Yes, certainly. There was a war going on. There was constant
13 firing on our positions.
14 Q. As someone who had the level of military training you had, could
15 you estimate what kind of artillery weapon was used against your
17 A. Most frequently they were the 60- and 82-millimetre mortars that
18 were mounted on some vehicles that were in motion and were difficult to
19 detect. They could open fire from the Vaso Miskin Crni factory and the
20 health centre at Malta and some other facilities. As I said, they were
21 mounted on vehicles. They were mobile. And their target -- or their aim
22 was probably to make detection more difficult.
23 Q. As the company officer, did you personally observe the artillery
24 positions you described?
25 A. Yes. We observed constantly at the front line. So as soon as
1 our observers would notice anything, I would go there myself to observe
2 where the fire was coming from.
3 Q. Given the fact that it was war time, I wanted to ask you whether
4 your company, in its ranks, had artillery weapons?
5 A. Yes, we had 60-millimetre mortars. And as part of the battalion
6 there was a mortar platoon most likely which engaged the enemy. We only
7 had 60-millimetre mortars in our company.
8 Q. Can you tell the Court where the battalion mortars were placed?
9 A. Behind our line, in the Prljavo Brdo settlement. To tell you the
10 truth, I don't know where they were exactly because there was no need for
11 me to move there. I was at the lines held by my company and there was no
12 need for me to leave the company sector.
13 Q. As the company commander, did you, at any point in time, receive
14 any kind of orders that would concern the use of artillery against the
15 positions of the ABiH?
16 A. No. We couldn't engage properly with our 60-millimetre mortar.
17 We used it more at night, to fire signal rockets mostly. The people I
18 had in my company were around 50 years of age so their hearing and
19 eyesight were not so good anymore and whenever they heard or observed
20 anything we would fire signal rockets so that we could try and see
21 whether there was any moving on the other side in the company sector.
22 Q. Did your company have trained sharpshooters and sniping weapons
23 as part of its arsenal?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Please tell the Court, if you know, where in Sarajevo was
1 Ivana Krndelja Street. It was so named until the end of the war?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Could you see that street from your company positions in part or
4 as a whole, if at all?
5 A. Some parts were visible but most of it was not.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question in between.
7 Is it your testimony that you never used your mortars to fire any
8 rounds apart from just to illuminate at night, to be able to see?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, we did have a
10 60-millimetre mortar in our company and we used it more at night to fire
11 signal rockets. We did not have any trained crews, of course, and I saw
12 the mortar for the first time when the war began.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, did you ever fire projectiles not being
14 signal rockets but just to engage the other party?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course we did, since we had the
16 mortar, we used it to fire other projectiles.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you told us a minute ago that you couldn't
18 engage properly with your 60-millimetre mortars, that you used it more at
19 night to fire signal rockets mostly. So -- but you used it to engage the
20 enemy but you often used it at night to fire signal rockets. Is that
21 well understood?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at night. I said that we used
23 the mortar most frequently at night to fire signal rockets to illuminate
24 the positions held by our company to control the area. Of course, at
25 times, in day-time, we also used other types of projectiles.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Just mortar bombs if I understand you well, other
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now did you do so at the instruction of your
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We did that when there was any
7 pronounced sniping coming from the enemy side.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we have to correct the transcript. The
9 previous answer, yes, was not given by counsel but by the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you -- was there a standing order that you
11 could use your artillery as you wished or as you considered right to do?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said already, we used it
13 exclusively when there was pronounced sniping against our positions. In
14 that way, we tried to interfere with the activity of snipers in order to
15 protect our soldiers and civilians.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You only used it against snipers, to eliminate
17 sniper nests or sniper activity?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Because the sniping was our
19 biggest problem.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. Draskovic, behind your forward positions - so behind your
23 back - was there an elevation held by the ABiH?
24 A. Yes. To our right side, there was Debelo Brdo and to our left
25 there was Mojmilo hill.
1 Q. From the positions at Debelo Brdo - if you know, given the fact
2 that you hail from the area - could one see Ivana Krndelja Street in part
3 or as a whole?
4 A. I think so because Debelo Brdo is quite high an elevation and I
5 think from that position one can see the street.
6 Q. During the war years, did you - and I have in mind your company -
7 have any POWs?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were civilians crossing the front lines in the area held by your
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Please tell the Court what was going on in that respect and what
13 kind of situation -- situations it entailed.
14 A. Often, especially at night, there were people coming from the
15 area of Sarajevo, the part controlled by the ABiH. Civilians were
16 crossing over to our side. There were Serbs and others. It is
17 well-known that a large number of Croats crossed our lines, I think, in
18 1994. So it frequently happened that civilians came across the lines at
19 night to our side.
20 Q. How did you treat such persons under the circumstances?
21 A. The soldiers standing guard notified the company duty officer who
22 notified the battalion duty officer. They were always taken over by the
23 battalion security officer for further processing.
24 Q. During the wartime events, within your defence area, was there
25 any need for pioneering and fortification work at the positions held by
1 your company?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Please describe for the Court what kind of pioneer work it
4 engaged. What kind of activity was it?
5 A. The layout of Ozrenska Street is such that it lies above the
6 settlement of Grbavica making it suitable for sniping from -- by the
7 enemy. Therefore, we were forced to carry out many -- much fortification
8 work. Ozrenska Street is well-known for the number of its embankments.
9 Otherwise one could not move up and down the street. Where there was no
10 shelter, one couldn't move at all especially at day-time. We asked the
11 battalion command to provide equipment for engineering work, and whenever
12 they could, they also assigned people to us from work detachments to come
13 and work on the fortification -- fortifying of our positions. It didn't
14 happen often, but at times only.
15 Q. To the best of your recollection, how frequently did that occur
16 during the war? How often did your company have such needs?
17 A. We had much need for that; but, unfortunately, they did not have
18 enough understanding for it. Perhaps once or twice a month we would
19 receive personnel from the working platoons or civilian protection who
20 worked on fortifying our positions?
21 Q. When you say people from the civilian protection and working
22 squads, please explain the Court how things worked. Who were the people
23 who were engaged in such engineering work?
24 A. Those were people who were not fit to carry arms. They were
25 Bosniaks, Serbs. We asked the battalion command for such people, and
1 they would usually be accompanied by someone who would spend some time
2 there with them. They shared our food. They shared our cigarettes. So
3 in terms of conditions, they were identical to ours.
4 As the company commander, I frequently wished that the roles were
5 reversed, that I could do their job.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask you -- you said they would
7 usually be accompanied by someone who would spend some time there with
9 I mean, that's -- if you accompany someone, you spend time with
10 that person. Could you tell us - it's rather vague - what was the role
11 of those accompanying persons.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the role of these persons was
13 primarily to safe-guard these people. Because Ozrenska Street, along
14 which they were moving, was truly exposed to sniping, so for that reason,
15 there had to be someone who was familiar with the terrain or, rather, the
16 places where there was most sniper fire so the people could safely reach
17 where they were going. And also for the sake of the safety of the person
18 who was guarding them, he stayed in that area where they worked and when
19 they would finish working, then they would return.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did they have any role in observing whether
21 people would not evade doing what they were supposed to do, so as to be
22 sure that they did the job as they were instructed to do?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, once they would get to the
24 area of the company, they would be told roughly what was supposed to be
25 done, but no one ever insisted that it had to be completed on that day
1 and no one of said how much should be done.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Were they free to say, Well, I'd rather not go there
3 and do the job.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably people who had
5 health problems could say that and they would certainly be spared on that
6 day or during those days.
7 JUDGE ORIE: But they were obliged to go there? As -- as a
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, certainly, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, was the percentage of Serbs and non-Serbs
11 the same as overall in the population?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that in the civilian
13 protection and work platoons there were Serbs and Muslims. However, I
14 really don't know about percentages.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Draskovic, at that time of imminent threat of war and in some
18 periods of a state of war, was military call-up obligatory for every
19 military aged able-bodied man?
20 A. Certainly. I guess that's the way it is in any country.
21 Q. Work obligation regarding those who were not fit for military
22 service, was that also obligatory, as the word itself says, in terms of
23 carrying out the state -- the duties assigned by the state?
24 A. Yes. Everybody had to contribute in some way to the defence of
25 the state.
1 Q. If somebody would refuse military call-up to report to a war-time
2 unit, would such a person be subjected to a certain responsibility on the
3 basis of the law?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And if somebody is not fit for military service for some reason,
6 if a person would refuse to carry out work obligation as assigned by the
7 state, would such a person be subject to responsibility or punishment?
8 A. Probably.
9 Q. At one point, you said that sometimes you wished to take the
10 place of these people, to switch positions. What did you mean by that?
11 A. Because I was exposed day and night to enemy fire. I had to take
12 care of my fighters. I had to take care of the civilian population.
13 Basically the burden of my company was on my shoulders. And these people
14 who came, I had to think about whether food would be provided on time
15 because of the war operations. Sometimes we wouldn't get food on time
16 and then that is why I often thought about them so that somebody else
17 would think of them and providing food for them, and their task was to
18 work on the lines primarily where it was safe, at least to a certain
19 degree. At 3.00, when they finished their work obligation they go home
20 and I continue, day and night, to care about the fighters, what would
21 happen during the night, is whether somebody night be wounded, somebody
22 might be killed, and they didn't have to care about any of that. That is
23 why I thought about that often that I'd like to be in civilian
24 protection, in the work platoon, rather than doing what it was that I was
1 Q. Were there situations within the mentioned engineering works that
2 somebody -- some of the people from civilian protection or, rather, work
3 obligation would fall victim to the sniper fire of Bosnia-Herzegovina or
4 some gun-fire or artillery fire?
5 A. Well, yes, it is well-known that snipers would aim at anything
6 that was moving. So there were situations when members of the civilian
7 protection and work platoons would get hit. There were some situations
8 when my soldiers, as they were getting these wounded people out, would
9 get killed. So we were in the same situation, the same position.
10 Q. What about yourself? During the years of war, did you lose any
11 family members due to sniper fire?
12 A. Yes, my wife's father was hit in the forehead and killed by
13 sniper fire and also uncles, all of them in the area of Vrace, and all of
14 them, right there, at their homes.
15 Q. Can you tell us the name of your father-in-law.
16 A. Pandurevic, Nikola Milorad.
17 Q. Was he a soldier or civilian at the time?
18 A. He was a soldier. Although he did not have one eye, he could
19 have been relieved of military obligation, but because of the people who
20 were standing guard there and who were carrying out their duty, he didn't
21 want to miss that. He would often go to the guard post across the street
22 from his house, and he was probably noticed by a sniper and hit and
24 Q. Tell us, if you have information or certain percentages, how many
25 people within your company during those years of war, how many people
1 were killed in combat, how many were killed by sniping, by artillery
2 fire, et cetera?
3 A. About 300 people were killed, civilians and combatants in
4 Ozrenska Street. I already said that this was a street where the theatre
5 of war was the most difficult in terms of Sarajevo and exposed to sniper
6 fire all the time, and other kinds of fire.
7 Q. Could you notice at any point in time from which sniper position
8 this sniper fire came that specifically killed your father-in-law, for
10 A. Yes, from the motel of Milan Pavkovic that was built for the
11 Olympic games. This was a huge fortification. Most of the buildings
12 were made of concrete so this was convenient for snipers, and he was
13 certainly hit from that position.
14 Q. When you say Motel Pavkovic, until the war was that a military or
15 civilian facility?
16 A. It was a civilian facility that was built for the Olympics in
17 1984 and it hadn't been completed actually, and I don't think it exists
18 any longer. It was totally destroyed, however, it was torn down after
19 the war. Milan Pavkovic, otherwise, is a well-known painter and
20 photographer and he is from Pofalici otherwise, and probably for the
21 Olympics he got this favourable credit and that is how he started
22 building that.
23 Q. Behind the Pavkovic motel were there residential buildings,
24 family homes, civilian buildings? What kind of neighbourhood is that in
25 Sarajevo where the Pavkovic motel was?
1 A. Civilian, houses, densely populated.
2 Q. You also mentioned Trg Pera Kosorica, a square from which you
3 noticed sniping fire came. Until the war were there any military
4 facilities there?
5 A. Never.
6 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber, since you lived there in that
7 part of Sarajevo, what kind of buildings existed in that square, Pera
8 Kosorica, and what was there purposes?
9 A. These were residential buildings.
10 Q. In Ozrenska Street, in the defence area of your company, were
11 there any residential buildings in the area of your company or taller
12 buildings or businesses?
13 A. No. Just civilian buildings, individual family homes.
14 Q. What happened to your house specifically in Ozrenska Street or,
15 rather, the house of your father-in-law in that street?
16 A. Still there, but totally destroyed. The walls are there. The
17 roof and everything else was destroyed and unfortunately after the war.
18 Not that much during the war. It was shelled two or three times before
19 the war, but it managed to survive all of that.
20 Q. Tell us, your unit specifically, your battalion, was it fired at
21 from Mojmilo and Debelo Brdo, places that were held by the BH army?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber, to the best of your knowledge, how much
24 higher is Debelo Brdo in relation to the altitude of the area where your
25 company was?
1 A. Well, as the name itself says, Debelo Brdo, Brdo is a hill, it
2 was much higher than Ozrenska Street.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not understand the
4 last sentence. Could the witness please speak up.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness please repeat the last sentence.
6 Because the interpreters could not hear you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Debelo Brdo, as the name itself
8 says, is an elevation --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Brdo is hill.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And it is much higher than Ozrenska
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Again, we cannot hear the
13 last part of the sentence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Can you again repeat the last part of your sentence.
15 You said it's an elevation. It's much higher than Ozrenska Street. And
16 what did you say after that?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mojmilo Brdo is a bit higher than
18 Ozrenska Street. Negligibly so.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I see the time, Your Honour. I
21 know it's the right time to take the break. If you allow me one
22 sentence. I've just received information -- well, after the break, we
23 are going to provide you with a number that we've assigned to this
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 First of all, Witness, I'd ask you to follow the usher. We'll
2 take a break for 20 minutes.
3 Meanwhile, Mr. Stojanovic, are you on track, as far as time is
5 [The witness stands down]
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. And I think
7 it's even going to be shorter because I have refrained from asking some
8 of the questions in view of what you indicated to me, so I think I will
9 need another 15 or 20 minutes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take the break first and we'll resume at
11 ten minutes to 11.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we please go
16 into private session briefly.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you just want to give the number, then we don't
18 need to go to private session.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But perhaps
20 some of the witnesses whose names I am about to mention may request
21 protective measures. That is why I believe it would be wise to move into
22 private session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll do it at the end of this session.
24 Once -- no. The witness may enter the courtroom. We'll do it at the end
25 of the session.
1 Could someone assist the usher in...
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Mr. Draskovic, your last answer had to do with Mojmilo hill. I
6 wanted to ask you this: What kind of infrastructure at Mojmilo hill?
7 Was there a facility?
8 A. No.
9 Q. The water supply facility for a part of Sarajevo, was it located
10 close to Ozrenska Street and Mojmilo hill?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In that regard, I wanted to ask you who held the -- that part of
13 the water supply line?
14 A. I think there were such facilities on both sides, ours and the
16 Q. Thank you. Was it possible for you and the civilians in Ozrenska
17 Street and that part of Sarajevo to use water if the part of Sarajevo
18 controlled by the Army of BiH did not have any water supply at the same
20 A. No, it wasn't.
21 Q. What about gas supply? In terms of supplying it to the part
22 where you lived and the area where the area of defence of your company
23 was, could that part be supplied with gas without the part of Sarajevo
24 controlled by the ABiH being supplied at the same time?
25 A. That was not possible.
1 Q. Let me conclude with the following topic. Because of the
2 intensity of sniping against the positions of your unit and the civilian
3 parts of Ozrenska Street, was it possible to erect certain kind of
4 fortification that would make visibility non-existent from the part held
5 by the members of the army and the VRS?
6 A. Yes, we did have such embankments. Without them --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, I'm just concerned that you're
8 testifying not the witness. Instead of putting the question, you're
9 telling the witness why you're putting the question and you're saying to
10 him "because of the intensity of the sniping" instead of the witness
11 telling us what he did and why he did it.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will try to do so. Thank you
13 for your suggestion, Your Honour.
14 Q. Witness, bearing in mind your previous answer, what kind of
15 obstacles were these?
16 A. Well, we usually made them with bricks and mortar but in certain
17 parts, it would require a wall between four and five metres high which
18 was impossible to do. That is why we simply put up some kind of
19 parapets, using blankets and other sorts of material, so as to block the
20 vision of the snipers in the direction of our soldiers and civilians.
21 Without such parapets, it would have been impossible for anyone to move
22 along Ozrenska Street.
23 Q. Were the dominant buildings in the part of Sarajevo controlled by
24 the ABiH from which one could see even over such obstacles that you have
1 A. Most apartment buildings could allow for that kind of visibility,
2 especially the four tall high-rises in Pera Kosorica Street and the
3 so-called Loris building across the stadium. Also it was possible to do
4 from some parts of Kupreska Street and my soldiers who were posted at the
5 stadium sustained sniper rifle from that direction. Basically most of
6 any high-rise buildings in that part of Sarajevo were suitable for
8 Q. In terms of their use, pre-war use, were those buildings civilian
9 or military?
10 A. They were all civilian buildings.
11 Q. During the war, if you could observe that, were civilians living
12 in those same buildings as well?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Mr. Draskovic, during the war years, did you, at any point in
15 time, receive as the company commander any kind of order from your
16 superior command to target civilian facilities from which there was no
17 engaging on the part of the ABiH?
18 A. Never.
19 Q. Did you ever find yourself in a situation that certain parts of
20 your positions were monitored by members of the international community,
21 such as UNPROFOR, the UN, or UNMO?
22 A. Throughout the war, they were on Borivoje Jeftic Street, there
23 were UN observers there and we co-operated excellently with them. Many
24 of them I still remember some even by first and last name. I think there
25 was a Spanish man by the name of Jimenez, who was the head of mission at
1 Grbavica. He frequently arrived and we always worked together very well.
2 We did not have any problems with any observation mission when it comes
3 to my company.
4 Q. As the commander of the company did you, at any point in time,
5 receive any kind of suggestion or objection by members of the observation
6 missions, in terms of any military activity in Sarajevo or against
8 A. No, never.
9 Q. When the Dayton Accords were signed, and bearing in mind that you
10 were still in military engagement for another six months, which entity,
11 the part of Sarajevo where the defence area of your company, had that
13 A. Before the Dayton Accords, it was held by the VRS, but the
14 Dayton Accord seized that part, so to speak, and it was made part of the
16 Q. Did the pre-war population return to that part of Sarajevo, and
17 these days who lives in that part of Sarajevo?
18 A. In Vrace and Ozrenska Street, defended by my company, there were
19 Serb civilians. They are no longer there. It is mostly inhabited by
20 Bosniaks and others.
21 Q. What happened with your property in Ozrenska Street?
22 A. The house still exists. It is devastated, for the most part. It
23 was shelled on a few occasions in the war, but the walls are still there
24 and the foundations.
25 Q. Mr. Draskovic, I'd like to thank you on behalf of Mr. Mladic's
1 Defence team and these would be the questions I had of you.
2 A. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
4 Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness,
5 Ms. Edgerton.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Good morning, Mr. Draskovic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Draskovic, you will now be cross-examined by
8 Ms. Edgerton, who apparently is ready to do so. Ms. Edgerton is counsel
9 for the Prosecution.
10 Please proceed.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
12 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
13 Q. Can you understand me in your own language?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Great. What I'd like to do as we start up is get you to just to
16 confirm a couple of details about your service with the Army of
17 Republika Srpska.
18 First, at temporary page 4 today, you talked about receiving your
19 call-up papers in April 1992. Now to be perfectly clear, you received
20 those Territorial Defence call-up papers from the staff of the Serbian
21 municipality of Novo Sarajevo; right?
22 A. Yes. Novo Sarajevo municipality was ruled by the SDS after the
23 first pre-war multi-party elections. So it was our municipality,
24 Novo Sarajevo.
25 Q. And, again, just to get some history perfectly straight, your
1 battalion, in fact, was formed as a unit of the VRS in May of 1992 - you
2 said that - and until May of 1993, it was part of the 1st Romanija
3 Brigade of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, you -- and it was only in May 1993 that it became part of
6 the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade. Also correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And before Stojanovic, who you talked as your battalion
9 commander, your first battalion commander was actually Brane Pokalovic
10 [phoen]; right?
11 A. Pokalovic.
12 Q. And your battalion had two deputy commanders. One was
13 Dragan Siljak and the other one was Milan Hrvacevic and Hrvacevic was
14 eventually replaced in 1995 by Bozo Tomic. That's also correct; right?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Now, as I understand your description of the line that your
17 company manned, That was a stretch of about 900 metres in Grbavica 2,
18 right? It was about 900 metres long.
19 A. Well, yes, approximately.
20 Q. And your line was in the immediate vicinity of the police school
21 in Vrace. That was one of your jobs, was to defend the police school;
23 A. Yes, it was in depth of our territory.
24 Q. And that's where the headquarters of the RS MUP was for a period
25 of time; correct?
1 A. At the beginning, yes.
2 Q. And also in your vicinity, although not quite immediately, were
3 the sky-scrapers at Soping where you had the headquarters of your
4 battalion's 2nd Company; right?
5 A. Yes, of the 2nd Company. Yes, of our battalion.
6 Q. All right. Now to go on to the subject of some of the weapons
7 that you talked about with my colleague, you mentioned your battalion's
8 mortars on Prljavo Brdo, and I think you can confirm to me that these
9 were 82-millimetre mortars, can't you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And there were six of them; right?
12 A. I really don't know. I never visited the sector where the
13 mortars were. I was a commander of an infantry company, spending my time
14 in company territory, save for the very few occasions when I went to
15 visit my family, when I left the defence lines of my company.
16 Q. Fair enough. Let's talk then about the 60-millimetre mortars
17 your company had. You actually had at least two, didn't you?
18 A. One.
19 Q. And where was that? Was that near the stadium or was it by your
20 company headquarters? Or was it over by the police school? Where was
22 A. It was up there where the 3rd Platoon of my company was, in the
23 part of Ozrenska Street which presented the most difficult part of the
24 front line held by my company.
25 Q. So was that near your company headquarters?
1 A. Yes, the HQ of the company was in Banja Lucka Street across the
2 street from the police school in the so-called Pajaco restaurant at the
3 beginning of the Ozrenska Street and the mortar was placed where the
4 command of the 3rd Platoon of my company was.
5 Q. So it never had to move much, did it, it was stationery
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is it correct also, isn't it, that you had a 76-millimetre
9 mountain gun on Kupreska Street?
10 A. We did not.
11 Q. Now what about some APCs? They wouldn't have necessarily been
12 your company's materiel. They would have been manned by soldiers from
13 your brigade's mechanised battalion. How many were in your area?
14 A. It was a separate unit. I really did not have any say in where
15 they were going or where they fired from. There were usually two or
16 three in the company sector.
17 Q. Right. And one was on Ozrenska Street; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And one was in the immediate vicinity of the police school?
20 A. Perhaps at times, but I don't know of it being there all the
22 Q. And you had one above the stadium?
23 A. No. Perhaps occasionally to engage from there, but it wasn't
24 above the stadium all the time.
25 Q. And what kind of guns did these APCs have on them?
1 A. They had 20- or 30-millimetre cannons. I don't know what calibre
2 precisely. And they also probably had the Malyutka self-guiding
3 missiles. I don't know if it was all of them but some of them did have
4 them. It was not in my unit and there was no need for me to know what
5 they had at their disposal.
6 Q. I understand. Now, just in terms of your unit you also had some
7 machine-gun, didn't you?
8 A. There must have been some machine-guns but I don't know how many.
9 There was probably the so-called 84 machine-gun and perhaps the M52.
10 Q. Now, the M84 shoots 7.62-millimetre bullets; right?
11 A. Probably. Really, I cannot remember. It's been 20 years so I've
12 forgotten. I was forced into being a soldier. I don't have any military
13 training. There was no need for me to remember the calibre and things
14 like that.
15 Q. Fair enough. But do you remember -- you must have had a couple
16 of machine-guns at the stadium; right?
17 A. We did. I don't know if there were a couple, but, at the
18 stadium, yes.
19 Q. And one above the stadium in Sanac?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you would have some in some of those private houses were
22 talking about on Ozrenska Street also; right?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. Now, to go to sort of take a step back now from your company's
25 area of responsibility and to talk about some assets that were controlled
1 by the brigade, the name mechanised brigade means that your brigade had
2 mechanised units so we've already talked about the APCs. They also had a
3 tank unit, didn't they?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And they had some tanks in the area of Grbavica and Vrace; right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. So, tell me if I've got this right. There was one that stayed
8 pretty much around the outpatient clinic in Lenjinova Street?
9 A. Probably. But that's not the area of responsibility of my
10 company so I don't know the deployment in Grbavica where different
11 weapons were.
12 Q. Well, for sure you would know about the ones that were moving up
13 and down the transit road; right?
14 A. I heard about some movements. These are such strong engines that
15 anybody would have to hear that, but where they were, ultimately I didn't
16 make any decisions in terms of where these vehicles should go, so I'm
17 really not aware of any of these details.
18 Q. No, I completely accept that you were outside of the
19 decision-making process in terms of the tanks. I have no problem with
20 that. I'm just asking about their locations.
21 There was -- do you remember there was one on Radnicka Street as
22 well; right?
23 A. I remember.
24 Q. Do you remember one on Bana Surbata Street?
25 A. I cannot remember, especially now that I've confused some of
1 these streets because before the war there was one name and then after
2 the war there were other names, so probably I get confused with these
3 street names. But I don't remember this at any rate.
4 Q. No, that's fine. And I'm always trying to use the old names so
5 as to avoid any confusion because I recognise that that's kind of
6 difficult to follow.
7 Now, my colleague also asked you whether your company had trained
8 sharpshooters and sniping weapons as part of its arsenal, and that was at
9 temporary page 12 today. But you can confirm -- you said no. But you
10 could also confirm that your battalion had a unit of sharpshooters of
11 about 12 people, and they weren't attached to a particular company. They
12 were under battalion command; right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And their job was to operate throughout the battalion's area of
15 responsibility as needed and requested; right?
16 A. Well, certainly they were within the battalion. They got their
17 assignments through the battalion. I mean, in the company, I did not
18 have a sniper. And it's the battalion that was in charge of these
19 snipers. So it is they who followed where it was that they were being
21 Q. And they were placed sometimes in the vicinity of your company,
22 though, nevertheless. They would go up to firing positions in the Soping
23 sky-scrapers; right?
24 A. Probably. I really don't have that information because they were
25 not duty-bound to report to me, and platoon commanders, probably they
1 were sent by their commanders to certain areas, and that is what they
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're invited to tell us what you
4 observed, so whether you're responsible, whether you had any position to
5 give orders, that's a different matter. So, therefore, the question also
6 includes: Did you see any of that from the Soping sky-scrapers,
7 entering, being in the position, firing from there, did you ever see such
8 a thing?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Soping sky-scrapers are not in
10 the territory of my company, so I really did not -- I mean, I've already
11 said there a few times. I did not move out of the defence area of my
12 company. I was commander of an infantry company. I was with my
13 soldiers. I have taken an oath here to tell the truth, the whole truth,
14 and nothing but the truth, and I have been acting accordingly.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ever seen such activity at Ozrenska Street?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Your indulgence for a moment.
19 Q. Now, you talked about -- you talked about elevations to a certain
20 extent today in your testimony in-chief. And you said -- my colleague
21 asked you: "Were the dominant buildings on the part of Sarajevo," at
22 transcript page 26, "... controlled by the ABiH from which one could see
23 over such obstacles."
24 And in that context he was -- or you were referring to something
25 that would block sniping from the Bosnian side. And you said: "Most
1 apartment buildings," referring to those buildings which were within
2 Bosnian-held Sarajevo, "... and the so-called Loris building," you said
3 "most apartment buildings could allow for that and the so-called Loris
4 building across the stadium."
5 But I just want to ask a question about elevations here. The
6 Loris building was immediately opposite the stadium at the same elevation
7 of the stadium, and Ozrenska Street and Vrace where you were talking
8 about are far away above the stadium and above the Loris building; isn't
9 that right? Because you're not trying to tell us that from the Loris
10 building you could see over the top of any barricades to block line of
11 sights on Ozrenska Street, are you?
12 A. I did not understand your question. The last part, that is.
13 Q. Okay. From the Loris building, you're not saying that anybody
14 could see over the top of any barricades that had been placed on Ozrenska
15 Street to block line of sight, are you?
16 A. The Loris building was under the control of the Army of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's opposite the stadium of Zeljeznicar, that
18 football club and, of course, of it a convenient spot for sniping. How
19 much Ozrenska Street could be seen from there, I really cannot say. I
20 was not in that position but rather on the other side. We made different
21 kinds of shelters made of canvas, bricks, whatever else, so that we could
22 move more easily especially during the day, and night.
23 Q. So, actually, when it comes to any comments about what potential
24 line of sight might be from Bosnian-held territory, you actually haven't
25 been there so you can't speak to line of sight at the time, can you?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know where the snipers were
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The question is not... the
5 question is not specific. It doesn't say which building and that creates
6 confusion. Does the Prosecutor mean the Loris building?
7 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
8 No, it's about from any point from Bosnian-held territory.
9 That's what the question is about. If it's not specific then it covers
10 that whole and whether that gives a good chance to an answer that makes
11 sense a different matter. I leave it -- the objection is denied, but
12 that doesn't mean that a rephrasing of the question might not assist.
13 Ms. Edgerton.
14 MS. EDGERTON: I'll actually just move on. I'm quite fine with
15 that, Your Honours.
16 Q. You outlined at the beginning of your evidence in-chief the area
17 of responsibility of your battalion. So you were talking about the
18 situation through Grbavica 1 and further onto the east. And because you
19 appear to be able to speak about the situation in your battalion's area
20 of responsibility and we've done that in some detail, I just want to ask
21 you about some firing positions in that area. All right?
22 We've talked about Soping, and I want to move further to the
23 east. You can confirm for us that your battalion had firing positions in
24 the sky-scrapers on what was Lenjinova Street and is now Grbavicka those
25 are the white ones. 4, 6, 6A, 8 and 14A. You can confirm that; right.
1 A. That's the line of another company. I mean, I was in the area of
2 Grbavica very rarely expect for the part that was covered by my company.
3 The Zeljeznicar stadium to the left and right, Ozrenska Street, Ozrenska
4 Street rather was the area of responsibility of my company and that's
5 where I spent most of my time. As for those sky-scrapers, I really don't
6 know those skyscrapers. They were dominant, they were nearby, and near
7 the lines of Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
9 be asked to speak at a slower pace. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I tried to intervene already a couple of times.
11 Could you please slow down in speaking because otherwise some of
12 your words would be lost and we would regret that.
13 Please proceed.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm sorry.
15 MS. EDGERTON:
16 Q. So could you -- actually, the witness wasn't given an opportunity
17 to finish his sentence. Perhaps -- well, he was given an opportunity.
18 Perhaps he could repeat it.
19 You said "they were dominant, they were nearby and near the lines
20 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina." Would you like to finish your
21 sentence for us.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We did not receive a
23 interpretation of this last speech.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Last question, I take it.
25 Could you repeat your question, Ms. Edgerton.
1 MS. EDGERTON:
2 Q. We were talking about firing positions and I asked you to confirm
3 your battalion's firing positions in the sky-scrapers on what was
4 Lenjinova Street and what's now Grbavicka Street and I gave you the
5 building numbers the address numbers of those buildings. Can you confirm
6 those firing positions for us?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I understood the last question to be
8 whether the witness would finish his answer. Because most of it is
9 already on the record.
10 You said, as a latter part of your answer "they were dominant.
11 They were nearby and near the lines of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
12 What did you add or was that the end of your answer?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the Soping skyscrapers were
14 really dominant and they were close to the line of Army of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was senseless to make sniper nests because
16 ordinary weapons could be used especially because it was dangerous.
17 Because these sky-scrapers were dominant and even for those who were
18 firing, that would constitute a danger.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MS. EDGERTON:
21 Q. So are you saying that there were no firing positions in Soping?
22 A. Well, it had to be that way because there was a war going on, so
23 I really cannot say what are the dominant positions where the positions
24 were. It was an area of another -- of another company so I had no need
25 to go to the area of another company because I was busy enough as it was
1 in my own company.
2 Q. So your answer is you can't confirm one way or another. Is that
3 your answer?
4 A. I cannot confirm that because I never entered these sky-scrapers,
5 not during the war, not before the war, not after the war.
6 Q. All right. Now you also talked in your evidence in-chief about
7 these mortars, 60- and 82-millimetre mobile mortars that you said were
8 used by the Bosnian forces. Now my question to you, since you raised it,
9 is: You fired back; right? Because why else would you be raising this
10 evidence? You talked about the mobile mortars, so you fired back at
11 them; right?
12 A. That's only logical.
13 Q. So you fired back at them with mortars; right?
14 A. Well, when our observers would notice firing from their mortar,
15 especially if they would see where it was coming from, we'd inform the
16 battalion command and then through the mortar platoon, they would fire at
17 those positions.
18 Q. So how long -- but you explained to us that these mobile mortars
19 are extremely difficult to see; right? So how quickly would they move
20 before you were able to fire?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we invite the witness to answer that
22 question, could I seek one clarification, especially in light of where
23 you said, "before you were able to fire."
24 Did I understand you well that you didn't use your own mortar but
25 that it was sent to the higher levels so that the mortar platoon would
1 engage the mobile mortars from the ABiH side or did you use your own
2 mortar to engage them?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had a 60-millimetre mortar and
4 its capacities are probably limited. Of course, we could inform the
5 battalion command and the battalion command would use the mortar platoon
6 to fire at these positions where our observers had observed fire from.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And you didn't use your own mortar for those
8 purposes. You reserved that to engaging sniper positions. Is that well
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. I was a bit uncertain about the
12 "you," whether that would be the mortar platoon or the platoon of which
13 the witnesses was a member.
14 Please proceed.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Of course.
16 Q. So how quickly would they move before the battalion would
17 respond, before the mortar unit would fire? Because the process that
18 you'd have to go through involves some delay; right?
19 A. That's right. Well, our observers usually observed them at
20 night-time. One would see the light, and that's how they could see it.
21 They were usually on vehicles, some vehicles of two tonnes. These are
22 smaller vehicles and, of course, they were on vehicles so that they could
23 fire from different places fast. We would let the battalion command know
24 and then, through the mortar platoon, they would act, and even if they
25 were not there, then we would let them know that we had seen them and
1 that we would fire too. We want to make it known that we have discovered
2 their positions, although they would usually change their positions
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you say "and that we would fire too" or that
5 "they would fire too"?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We and they. They fire, we see
7 them. After that, we fire.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
9 MS. EDGERTON:
10 Q. So you let them know you see them by firing into the empty space
11 where they were; right?
12 A. At that moment we don't know whether it's an empty space or
13 whether they are still there or whether they had moved. Most often they
14 would move using that vehicle, but I've already said that we did that in
15 order to make it known that we have seen them and that therefore we would
16 fire at the location from which they had fired.
17 Q. Okay. So the point of firing at that location irrespective of
18 whether or not they were there was to do something like intimidate them
19 into stopping, I suppose; right? Because they're almost impossible to
20 hit otherwise.
21 A. Well, it was hard to hit them, but let's take it that way. Our
22 mortars would, say, intimidate them, or warn them.
23 Q. And just relating to how you used your mortars vis-ā-vis snipers
24 on Bosnian side, your evidence is that you would use your mortars against
25 residential buildings from which Bosnian forces were firing; correct?
1 You would use your 60-millimetre mortars against residential buildings to
2 eliminate the snipers. Do I have that right?
3 A. Well, most often our 60-millimetre mortar would fire from the
4 Pavkovic motel. It was built using concrete. It was huge. And our
5 fighters and the civilian population were affected by that, and, of
6 course, we would fire in order to make it known to that sniper there that
7 we had discovered him. It is impossible to take that. Whoever has not
8 experienced this, is it so hard to describe the feeling of being under
9 sniper fire. You know that the Majmunovic family, people who lived
10 there, even their cow was hit. The sniper shooter killed everyone,
11 including that cow, and that practically paralysed life in Ozrenska
12 Street, and we were trying to deal with it in everyone conceivable way.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, could I ask your attention for page
14 43, lines 14 and 15 especially the word "from" which seems rather
15 illogical in this context. And, second, Mr. Stojanovic did not take the
16 effort to locate the Pavkovic motel. If you would do it for him and for
17 yourself, then at least the Chamber would know what we're talking about.
18 MS. EDGERTON: I could make an effort to do that over the next
19 break, Your Honour, which I see by the clock is imminent.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, I had in five minutes on my mind but if
21 you'd rather take the break now then ...
22 But could you already resolve the line where it says "well, most
23 often and I think it would mean our 60-millimetre mortar would fire from
24 the Pavkovic motel ..."
25 I take it it was firing at the Pavkovic motel. Is that what you
1 said, Witness, or did you say that it would fire from the Pavkovic motel?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the motel. There were snipers
3 active in the motel on the ABiH side.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that has been clarified.
5 Ms. Edgerton, would you like to fill the next three minutes or
6 would you like to take the break now.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, I can fill it, Your Honours and then come back
8 to you on the question of the Pavkovic motel.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would continue for another three
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. You mentioned the Pavkovic motel earlier in your testimony but
13 you mentioned other locations including apartment buildings. So my
14 question to you is that - and I'll direct you to that passage in your
15 testimony - it's at temporary page 26 -- pardon me. You were referring
16 to the four tall high-rises in -- and I'm not sure which street you
17 indicated, "the so-called Loris building, parts of Kupreska Street and
18 high-rise buildings." And my colleague asked you:
19 "In terms of their pre-war use, were those buildings civilian or
20 military? "
21 And these are the -- and you indicated they were all civilian
22 buildings. And then my colleague said: "During the war, if you can
23 observe that, were civilians living in those same buildings as well? "
24 And you said: Yes.
25 So just so I get this completely straight. So your evidence is
1 to eliminate Bosnian snipers you fired mortars on buildings where
2 civilians -- where you knew where civilians were living; right?
3 A. Let me clarify. They engaged us the most from the Pavkovic motel
4 and the high-rises at Pera Kosorica square and the Loris building in
5 Kupreska Street where our civilians lived. Their sniping activity was
6 pronounced the most there. Of course, wherever we could observe a sniper
7 we tried to neutralised it, but it is difficult to target a building with
8 a mortar, especially if one is targeting a sniping nest. That is why we
9 tried to neutralise the Pavkovic motel nest which was the closest to our
10 line and caused most trouble for us. Of course, when they fired from the
11 high-rises and the Loris building, we did our utmost to use our
12 machine-guns and infantry weapons to neutralize or intimidate the
13 sharpshooters. As I said it is difficult to target a building with a
14 mortar, especially if one is targeting a sniping location.
15 Q. And you fired on the sky-scrapers in the Pero Kosoric square with
16 tanks as well; right?
17 A. I did not.
18 Q. Tanks positioned in Vrace and Grbavica operating throughout that
19 area fired on -- putting aside -- I've already said, I accept that you
20 have nothing to do with the chain of command involving the deployment of
21 those tanks. But the tanks positioned in Vrace and Grbavica fired on the
22 skyscrapers at Pera Kosorica Square; right?
23 A. They did.
24 Q. Thank you. I think I've used up my time.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you've used your three minutes. Where are we
1 in terms of timing --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may?
3 JUDGE ORIE: One second. You may in a second.
4 As far as timing is concerned, Ms. Edgerton.
5 MS. EDGERTON: I'll finish in advance of my estimate,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You wanted to say something, Witness, Mr. Draskovic.
8 Witness -- yes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to mention the tanks
10 engaging Vrace and the high-rises. If someone is targeting you from a
11 high-rise, what else can you do than to defend yourself and try to
12 neutralize it?
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's about the use of a tank which was the
14 main gist of the question, but you have answered the question so -- and
15 you have now added something.
16 You may follow the usher. We'd like to see you back in 20
17 minutes. Because we'll resume at ten minutes past midday.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I see that all the confusion is not reflected
22 rightly on the transcript, where, when the Judges entered the courtroom,
23 were informed that the courtroom was not entirely ready yet. That all is
24 now behind us.
25 We briefly move into private session.
1 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, you may proceed.
21 MS. EDGERTON: And just to update Your Honour, I wasn't, although
22 I was optimistic, able to find information about the location of the
23 Pavkovic motel and I believe my friend will take that up in his re-direct
25 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the case, then we'll wait for that.
1 Please proceed.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
3 Q. Now I have just two quick questions to finish up, Mr. Draskovic.
4 First of all, when you -- when your units used their machine-guns
5 and their infantry weapons, you're not saying they only used them at
6 elevations. They used them at ground-level targets as well. They fired
7 at ground-level targets as well; right?
8 A. You probably did not understand me well. I did not say that we
9 only targeted something at elevations but that the machine-guns were
10 placed at elevations from which they had command of the area on our side.
11 Q. All right. Then I have one last question for you. And it's
12 because you alluded to the feeling of being under sniper fire and I just
13 want to ask you a couple of things about that.
14 You would agree with me, I think, from your experience that being
15 under sniper fire would make civilians feel scared and insecure, wouldn't
17 A. Certainly, both soldiers and civilians. You know what it's like
18 if you are targeted by snipers 24 hours a day and you cannot move. You
19 cannot be focussed enough around the clock to always be aware from which
20 direction, what sniper is active.
21 Q. It would terrorise them; right?
22 A. Certainly.
23 Q. And that would be the case anywhere, wouldn't it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Including for those civilians who were living in Bosnian-held
1 Sarajevo; right?
2 A. Certainly. The war caused damage and problems on both sides.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Nothing further, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
6 Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in re-direct?
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few, Your Honour.
8 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Draskovic, during cross-examination, at
10 page 43 of the temporary transcript, lines 8 and 9, you discussed the
11 targeting of the mobile targets. What I want to ask you is this: What
12 do you understand to be a mobile target, or, in other words, mobile
13 artillery weapons?
14 A. As I said, there were smaller cargo vehicles where mortars were
15 mounted. For the most part they were 82-millimetre calibre and engaged
16 the positions of the VRS. They were mounted on vehicles which could
17 easily move and that is why we had difficulty detecting them.
18 As I said, when they were active at night, our observers could
19 see their location and would then inform the company and battalion
20 commands, and then we asked that our mortars be used to neutralize
22 Q. While trying to neutralize these mobile targets, these mobile
23 mortars, did you, at any point in time, target civilian targets with the
24 intention not to engage a mobile target but a civilian target?
25 A. No, never.
1 Q. In your experience as the company commander, were there ever
2 situations in which members of the ABiH army misused, so to speak, their
3 civilian population by using civilian facilities to target the VRS?
4 A. Well, yes, certainly. They opened fire from apartment buildings,
5 thus abusing and placing in danger their civilian population because they
6 must have expected that we would retaliate.
7 Q. Through such acts and conduct of the enemy side, could you
8 observe a system they used to engage your side by misusing the civilian
10 A. They mostly used civilian buildings in the area of my company and
11 in other areas from where the ABiH was active because on their side,
12 there had been no military buildings before the war, as there are none
13 now. Thus, they were active from civilian buildings, and we returned
15 Q. When it comes to the use of 60 -- the 60-millimetre mortar that
16 was in your company, was it fixed throughout the war or, depending on the
17 intensity of fighting, was there any need for you to move the mortar?
18 A. It was fixed, as I said in Ozrenska Street in the area of the
19 3rd Platoon of the 3rd Company. There were probably moments when it
20 needed to be -- moved to the areas of other companies. But, as I said,
21 for the most part, it was in the area of the 3rd Platoon of the
22 3rd Company.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, another example of already giving
24 the reasons of why the witness is supposed to answer the question in a
25 certain way; it is the intensity of fighting which would cause it. I
1 leave it to that. But please try to properly examine the witness.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. At page 50 of today's transcript, the temporary transcript that
5 is, you discussed the concept of using sniping fire to terrorise on both
6 sides. In your view, the term "terror," what does it specifically
7 entail, if you can clarify?
8 A. The very fact that we were defending our homes, our families, and
9 that our positions were in front of our houses and that we had never been
10 given an order to carry out offensive operations, and, on the other said,
11 as I said a number of times, we had sniping around the clock, and a very
12 uncomfortable way of living under their fire because one could not be
13 certain at any point during the 24 hours, for example, even our guards
14 were not safe in their posts, although they had fortifications. But
15 there was always some window of opportunity for the sharpshooters having
16 night-vision, hence, we were exposed to their fire round the clock and we
17 were unable to move. That very fact that one is just waiting for your
18 wrong step at any point in time that can end your life makes you feel
19 very uncomfortable, and that is how this terror occurred on the side of
20 our soldiers and civilians.
21 Q. As you could assess the war-time situation from your positions,
22 during the war years, who was better equipped in terms of sniping rifles
23 and who had better trained sharpshooters, the VRS or the ABiH?
24 A. The advantage was on the ABiH side throughout the war.
25 Q. Logically the next question follows --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first seek clarification of this question.
2 What do you know about the number and the training of ABiH
3 sharpshooters or snipers? How many were there? How many sniper rifles
4 were used?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The very fact that they could cover
6 our positions around the clock speaks for itself --
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... no. I'm asking
8 you a question and I'd like to have an answer to my question.
9 Do you know - if you don't know, that's an answer as well - how
10 many snipers were there, on the ABiH side.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not in a position to know.
12 JUDGE ORIE: How many sniper rifles did they have?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm also not aware of that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: How many sniper rifles did the Bosnian Serb army
15 have around Sarajevo.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know. I said that
17 we had a sniping squad in our platoon comprising 12 men. I don't know if
18 each had their own rifle or if they used the same rifles in different
19 shifts --
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... were they all
21 the snipers around the city of Sarajevo?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it comes to the VRS? That
23 your question?
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes. The whole
25 area around Sarajevo, let's say, following the -- any unit that was at
1 the confrontation lines. Or just behind.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I don't know about the other
3 units. But in my battalion there were 12 people.
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if they were
6 sharpshooters by training, but they were given sniping rifles. I don't
7 know how much knowledge they had about the weapons ...
8 JUDGE ORIE: My question was whether there are others apart from
9 those 12 around Sarajevo. If you don't know, tell us as well.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you agree with me that lack of factual
12 knowledge would make it very difficult for you to assess which was best
13 equipped and trained for sniping?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would agree, but we would
15 have five casualties per day, and that shows that they had very well
16 trained people and good rifles.
17 JUDGE ORIE: How many casualties were there on the other side per
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
20 JUDGE ORIE: How many of those five were soldiers; how many of
21 those five were civilians, a day?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't always five per day, but
23 when there were days like that, there would be two civilians, three
24 soldiers, or people from civilian protection or that is to say, people
25 from work platoons so ... it varied.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed, and try to keep the witness to
3 the facts rather than to judgement or opinion.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,
5 just a second, please, if I may consult with Mr. Mladic.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You always may consult with Mr. Mladic, as long as
7 it is done at an inaudible volume.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Draskovic, since I was told that in line 25 on page 53 and
12 line 1, page 54, of LiveNote there was some dilemmas, I would like to
13 clarify certain matters with you.
14 In your company, was there, in terms of establishment, any part
15 of the sniper unit?
16 A. Never in that company.
17 Q. When you mentioned the platoon within which there were
18 sharpshooters, can you tell the Trial Chamber - if you know - who that
19 platoon belonged to, where the snipers were as well?
20 A. I may have misspoken. It was a squad of sharpshooters, 12
21 people. They were within the 2nd Battalion.
22 Q. Thank you. That's what I wanted to clarify.
23 Let me just ask you something else. Do you know whether, in
24 terms of establishment, in companies to your left and right, were there
25 any snipers that belonged to these companies?
1 A. As far as I know, no.
2 Q. Thank you. And now I would like to take a look --
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the map is not
4 good enough then I'm going to use another document.
5 Q. But first actually let me ask you this: You mentioned today, in
6 direct and cross-examination, the Pavkovic motel. Does that building
7 exist today in Sarajevo at all?
8 A. It does not. I passed through that area about ten days ago, and
9 it's been completely torn down. There's a building that was being built
10 there but nothing happened. Since it had concrete walls and it was
11 seriously fortified it was used a lot for sniper nests.
12 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to show you a map of a Sarajevo and my
13 request to you is to mark this building if you can, where the Pavkovic
14 motel was. Because we discussed that during preparations.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, P3, page 8. Could
16 we please have that document in e-court, P3, page 8. We'll try using
17 that first and maybe it's even going to be better in another document,
18 P123, but we'll see where we manage to get better organised.
19 So P3, page 8.
20 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Loading pictures usually takes a bit
21 more time.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in, the
23 central part of this photograph, F4.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Can I just make a suggestion if we go to page 11,
25 I think --
1 JUDGE ORIE: We have F -- the F4 incident on another page more
2 specifically. If that would help, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not sure, Your Honour.
4 Because of the distance of the place where the Pavkovic motel was. So
5 I'm going to ask the witness first whether he can find his way in this
6 photograph. If not, then could we use P123. Because there we also have
7 the names of streets. So perhaps it would be better for the witness.
8 But if the witness can deal with this because we did work during proofing
9 with this map, then maybe --
10 Q. Well, Mr. Witness, can you find your way here now?
11 A. I cannot. Because there are no street names here. It's unclear
12 to me. The Pavkovic motel was near our positions so ...
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... witness --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I really cannot manage with this
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, do you see the stadium which is
17 approximately, as far as we understand, in the centre of this map?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I see the stadium.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Does that assist you also looking at where the river
20 Miljacka is? Does this assist you in finding the location where the
21 Pavkovic, Milan Pavkovic motel has been?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the left of the Zeljeznicar
23 football club stadium, but there are no street names here and my eyesight
24 is not good so that is perhaps why I cannot actually see that.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, without your leave
1 without having it broadcast can we have P123. Let's try that way. P123.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And -- yes, Ms. Edgerton.
3 MS. EDGERTON: I would actually, given -- if we could go into
4 private session for a moment, Your Honours, please.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
6 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 Can you find your bearings on this map, Witness? You see in the
1 centre Grbavica. And do you see the Miljacka river?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This map is much better, clearer.
3 I'm just trying to locate the motel now.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the usher could assist. Yes, let get back
5 to the visible image again.
6 Now this is not exactly the same as what we saw before. Now we
7 are back. And we zoomed into the centre of this earlier.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Witness, do try, you see the Vrace memorial park now. And
11 you had that cross there --
12 A. I see Moravska, Jadranska --
13 Q. The Grbavica stadium?
14 A. Well, roughly it's in this area. Somewhere around this location.
15 That's where the motel was.
16 Q. Could you now mark that with a little circle?
17 A. Well, roughly here. Somewhere around here, yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- has the witness a marker? Because I don't
19 see any marking at this moment -- oh, yes, I now see where the marking
21 Could you --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, and I can see it on the
23 screen in front of me.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I now do as well.
25 Witness, could you please put a -- clear letters PM for Pavkovic
1 motel next to where you marked this map.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, roughly here, the little
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But ... well, that's -- the P is to the left
5 of the marked circle; the M is to the right of it. So it looks, more or
6 less, like POM or ROM and that's where the witness marked the Pavkovic
8 You want to tender this, Mr. Stojanovic?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. And I would
10 like to tender this document into evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no other markings needed?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28112a, with the marks receives exhibit
15 number D1201, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check. I think it had a small a to it
17 as well. So it should be 28112a which has now received number D1201, as
18 marked by the witness.
19 Ms. Edgerton.
20 MS. EDGERTON: With -- with the greatest respect, Your Honour,
21 and the transcript has it correctly, 28112a.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I added the 8 and the A were apparently confused.
23 Apologies for not getting this right immediately. So I now repeat 28112a
24 has been assigned D1201 and is admitted into evidence.
25 Further questions, Mr. Stojanovic.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. We would like
2 to thank you and the witness.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, anything further?
4 MS. EDGERTON: Just for about five minutes, Your Honours, if I
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you may.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
8 Further cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
9 Q. Mr. Draskovic, you keep reaffirming - you've done it twice today
10 to my friend - that you never once received an order for any offensive
11 operations. But, again, just so that we can set the record straight,
12 it's a fact, isn't it, that your units took control of the area of
13 Grbavica 1 and the Vrbanja bridge on the 4th of May, 1992 in offensive
14 operations; right?
15 A. Well, certainly, that was the beginning of the war. But I was
16 not in the area then. I took my family away, so I was not there at the
17 time, and I cannot speak about that.
18 Q. Well, were you in the area on the 5th of June, 1992 when your
19 units took control of Soping and Grbavica 2 in offensive operations?
20 A. Yes, but my unit did not take part in these operations.
21 Q. And were you in the area on 17 June 1992 when, let's say, your
22 brigade occupied Zlatiste, took control of Zlatiste in offensive
24 A. Yes, I was in the area of my company.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Nothing further.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Draskovic, this concludes your testimony. I'd
5 like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for
6 having answered all the questions that were put to you, either by the
7 parties or by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
8 You may follow the usher.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness or
12 would we first -- no.
13 Are you ready, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: We can make a break if it suits you better.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it doesn't suit us specifically better,
16 because I think we're still 20 minutes off from the usual break time but
17 if you would prefer to take the break now and then to start the
18 examination of the next witness for the next 65 minutes as well.
19 MR. LUKIC: We can continue now, then, Your Honour. We would
20 call Ms. Biljana Stojkovic.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And she's waiting for a while, I take it, so,
22 therefore, could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Ms. Stojkovic, I assume. Before you
1 give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration, of
2 which the text is now handed out to you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: BILJANA STOJKOVIC
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
8 Ms. Stojkovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.
9 Mr. Lukic -- and you find him to your left. In a second, he will be
10 standing. Mr. Mladic is supposed not to greet witnesses. Mr. Mladic, is
11 that clear?
12 You'll find Mr. Lukic to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for
13 Mr. Mladic.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would kindly ask the usher
16 to give Ms. Stojkovic's, her written statement. Can you show it to the
17 Prosecution first.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
19 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Ms. Stojkovic.
21 A. Good day.
22 Q. Could you please slowly state your name and surname for the
24 A. My name is Biljana Stojkovic.
25 Q. Since we speak the same language, I'm going to pause after your
1 answers. That does not mean that I'm not satisfied with the answer.
2 At one point in time, did you give a statement to the members of
3 General Mladic's Defence team?
4 A. Yes, twice.
5 MR. LUKIC: Can we have on our screens 1D1750, please.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Stojkovic, on the right-hand side of the
7 screen before you, can you see a document?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you see a signature on the first page of that document?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you recognise the signature?
12 A. Yes, it's my own signature.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now take a look at the last
15 page of this document.
16 Q. On this page, Ms. Stojkovic, can you see a signature?
17 A. Yes. It is my signature.
18 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review your statement before
19 testifying today?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What was recorded in this statement, has it been recorded
22 correctly; that is to say, is it exactly what you said to the members of
23 General Mladic's Defence team?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What is contained in the statement, to the best of your
1 knowledge, is it correct and true?
2 A. It is correct and true, yes.
3 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, Ms. Stojkovic,
4 would you give the same answers?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, we would offer this statement into
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Melikian, no objections.
10 Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D01750 receives exhibit number D1202,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I will read short statement
16 summary for Ms. Stojkovic.
17 Ms. Stojkovic, Biljana, is a journalist living in Belgrade
18 Serbia. She earned her Ph.D. degree in the field of development strategy
19 at the military academy of the university of defence. Witness will
20 testify that on the 16th of July, 1995, she married Mr. Zarko Stojkovic
21 in Voznjesenska Church in Belgrade Serbia. She will confirm that on
22 wedding ceremony, their godfathers were Ratko and Bosiljka Mladic as well
23 as they were present in Belgrade on this date. On the same wedding day,
24 they were in restaurant Dva Ribara in Belgrade. Ms. Stojkovic will
25 testify about the whereabouts of General Mladic on the 16th of July,
2 That was the short statement. I will have only a few questions
3 for Ms. Stojkovic.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please put them to the witness, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Stojkovic, we have your statement which is
7 now in evidence. I will just seek a few clarifications with you.
8 A. Please go ahead.
9 Q. You explained when General Mladic arrived at your place with his
10 wife. You explained the time spent at the restaurant and in the church.
11 Throughout that time, could you observe that General Mladic had some
12 communications means with him and that he was using them, being military
13 staff you know what they look like?
14 A. No, I was surprised myself. He seemed to be fully focussed on
15 our wedding and the celebrations attached to it in Serbia, which means he
16 was fully dedicated to the people present, the procedure entailed by the
17 church ceremony, the time spent with the bride and groom at the
18 restaurant. He seemed to be fully focussed on the time he spent with us
19 and our family. He had no communication devices on him.
20 Q. To the best of your knowledge, do you remember when
21 General Mladic and his wife left your wedding?
22 A. Yes. I think I pointed it out in my statement. It was around
23 5.30. I don't know whether it was a minute or two before or later, but
24 definitely around 5.30 or quarter to 6.00, that is when he left the
25 dining hall at the Dva Ribara restaurant where the ceremonial lunch took
1 place. He excused himself, citing official duties. I stayed in the
2 dining hall with my guests, while my husband escorted him to the car.
3 Q. Ms. Stojkovic, thank you. This is all that General Mladic's
4 Defence had for you at this moment.
5 A. Thank you as well.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
7 Ms. Melikian, are you ready could cross-examine the witness?
8 MS. MELIKIAN: Yes, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I took it you wanted to rely upon our
10 ability to draw conclusions, that if the 17th of July is the day after
11 that it must have been the 16th, although it's found nowhere, I think, in
12 the statement that it all happened on the 16th.
13 And where the witness said that she already said in her statement
14 that it was 5.30, I tried to find that, but I was unable to immediately
15 find that. But you left us some small puzzles but we're able to resolve
17 MR. LUKIC: Yeah in paragraph 17 -- 11, yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's where we could conclude that it was all about
19 the 16th and there seems to be no dispute about that. Ms. Melikian, I
20 take it, that the wedding took place on the 16th.
21 MS. MELIKIAN: No, there's no dispute.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But, basically, you start with times and places if
23 you take a statement.
24 Please proceed.
25 Cross-examination by Ms. Melikian:
1 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Stojkovic.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have failed to introduce you.
3 Ms. Melikian will now cross-examine you. Ms. Melikian is counsel
4 for the Prosecution, and you find her to your right, as you've seen her
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. MELIKIAN:
8 Q. Good afternoon.
9 Ms. Stojkovic, you say in your statement at paragraphs 6 and 7
10 that you begin the morning at your apartment and then you proceed to the
11 church. At about what time did you arrive at the church?
12 A. I see there are some problems with certain terms, because I was
13 rather general in my statement and I can try and clarify the situation by
14 hour by hour. I spend the night in my apartment --
15 JUDGE ORIE: If you just answer the questions, then Ms. Melikian
16 will exactly ask you what she'd like to know. And the first thing is:
17 At what time did you arrive at the church.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We left the apartment at 11.30. At
19 12.00, we had the wedding ceremony. At 2.00 p.m., we had lunch at the
20 Dva Ribara restaurant.
21 MS. MELIKIAN:
22 Q. So I arrived at the restaurant at around 2.00?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. And was there a meal served at the restaurant?
25 A. Yes, yes. It takes a long time back in Serbia just a serving of
1 the meals takes about two hours. So we were there between 2.00 p.m. and
2 6.00 p.m., at the restaurant.
3 Q. And I think you may have mentioned this earlier in your direct
4 examination, but was Mr. Mladic, was he with you the whole time in the
5 restaurant or ...
6 A. Absolutely, we were there all the time. That is what I was
7 trying to explain. The first person to enter my apartment was the
8 hairdresser, at around 8.00. She was followed quarter of an hour later
9 by the cameraman and then my husband's family arrived, followed by the
10 best man and that matron of honour. [Overlapping speakers] ...
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Overlapping speakers] ... the question was only
13 about the time you spent at the restaurant.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You were asked only about the time in the
16 restaurant. Could you answer that.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean the time I spent with
18 the guests there or the time spent at the restaurant by the best man and
19 the matron of honour with us and the other guests?
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question was about Mr. Mr. Mladic spent
21 all the time when you were in the restaurant with you, with the company
22 which was in the restaurant.
23 Was that the question, Ms. Melikian.
24 MS. MELIKIAN: Yes. Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He spent all that time with us and
1 never left the restaurant, either he or his wife, between 2.00 p.m. and
2 5.30. He was in the restaurant throughout that time.
3 MS. MELIKIAN:
4 Q. But he got up from the table during that time and maybe left the
5 dining-room? If you remember.
6 A. I would have to acquaint you with the layout of the restaurant.
7 It was on the middle floor, below us was ground floor and behind the
8 restaurant is the toilet linked to the restaurant so he did not even
9 leave the middle floor, let alone the restaurant.
10 Q. So he didn't get up from the table from when you arrived at the
11 restaurant at around 2.00 p.m. until when he left at 5.30, he didn't
12 leave the dining-room where you were?
13 A. You understood me well. He only got up when he was supposed to
14 give the toast. I don't know whether you are familiar with the
15 significance of toasting in our culture.
16 Q. I don't know that I am. I guess I'm just -- to -- just to be
17 clear, did he ever -- you said he stood up to give a toast. Did you ever
18 stand up to go to the restroom?
19 A. Correct. I really don't remember that he did.
20 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one question. When you were asked
21 about whether he ever got up from the table, your answer was about where
22 the restrooms are, where the toilets are. That, in view of the question,
23 comes a bit as a surprise because it wasn't asked. Do you consider it a
24 possibility that he went to the restrooms although you are convinced that
25 he didn't leave the floor on which the restaurant was?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm wondering about the sense of
2 this. His wife was seated next to me and he was next to her. So he was
3 my second person to the left --
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... please answer
5 my question. My question is: And I pointed --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to say this. If he
7 wanted to go to the toilet he must have passed next to me so I would have
8 seen him. The only hypothetical possibility that I did not see him was
9 that we dance at our weddings and at some point perhaps we danced, we
10 waltzed or something of the sort. If something goes on four hours I
11 cannot exclude that hypothetical possibility but as far as what I could
12 see, he did not go to the toilet.
13 Does that clarify the situation?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, half it does. Because you explain why you may
15 have missed it and at the same time you say you didn't see him go.
16 That's not fully consistent. But let's leave it for that for the time
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. MELIKIAN: Thank you.
20 Q. Moving on briefly to another topic, you mention that there were
21 wedding tapes of -- that your wedding was filmed and that these tapes
22 were subsequently stolen; is that correct?
23 A. Fully correct.
24 Q. I'm just curious. You said in paragraph 11 that you -- of your
25 statement that you watched the videotapes the next day.
1 A. Mm-hm.
2 Q. Do you remember if these videotapes had a date and time stamp on
4 A. Yes, certainly.
5 Q. They did have a date and --
6 A. [No interpretation]
7 Q. I'm sorry, could you please repeat your answer. I don't think it
8 was interpreted.
9 A. Very well. If we had the possibility to present the tape to the
10 Court designated as wedding 1 and wedding 2, it would have been the
11 strongest point to prove at what point in time, at what hour and minute
12 General Mladic was at the wedding table and how he spent his time at my
13 wedding. It means that there was a time code on the tape in terms of
14 what took place when.
15 Q. Thank you very much.
16 A. Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have a question for a clarification.
18 Again, about timing.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. You said, this can be found on page 69,
21 line 6 and 7. You said, "so we were there," that means in the
22 restaurant, "between 2.00 p.m. and 6.00."
23 Later, page 70, lines 6 and 7, you said: He spent all the time
24 with us and never left the restaurant either he or his wife between 2.00
25 and 5.30.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Therefore I would like to ask you: Was he there
3 until 6.00 or 5.30? We have received two time-frames from you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for that question. The
5 situation is as follows. All guests arrived at 2.00 p.m. and we entered
6 the dining hall, including General Mladic and his wife. They were the
7 first guests to leave, leaving at 5.30. Unless I also included my
8 colleague, the cameraman who, having spent the first tape left at 5.00 to
9 buy a new one. But the guests left at different times following that.
10 My husband and I remained as the last ones. For example, some guests for
11 their private obligations left around 6.00. Some left around 8.00.
12 Let's say we left at around -- well, between 8.00 and 9.00 p.m.
13 The band left at around 8.00 because they play at a different
14 restaurant at Skadarlija. Then my husband, my father-in-law, and a few
15 others took up instruments and sang and played for the guests. We stayed
16 for another hour because we had rented the hall until, say, 8.00 or 9.00.
17 Then we went to our apartment where some of the younger guests remained
18 until early morning hours.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Does that explain it?
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have received what you wanted to say. That
22 means --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- after 5.30 that day, you haven't seen
25 Mr. Mladic anymore?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are fully correct.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
5 You were asked whether Mr. Mladic had no communications devices
6 on him and -- you said you had no communication devices on him. May I
7 take it that you meant to say that you didn't see any communication
8 devices? Because he may have had them somewhere you couldn't see. So
9 it's -- do I have to understand that you didn't see any of those?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We certainly did not search our
11 guests at the wedding. I hope you understand. What I did not see was
12 that he displayed any such device or used it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's how I thought I would have to understand it
14 but I just wanted to be sure that that's what you meant.
15 I have no further questions.
16 Mr. Lukic, any questions triggered by the cross-examination.
17 MR. LUKIC: Only question of video and then I would just continue
18 with pictures whether they were missing, whether some of them were
19 retrieved because I think we have some pictures in our evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
22 JUDGE ORIE: You have examined the witness in-chief, didn't you?
23 And would you now revisit matters which are ...
24 MR. LUKIC: I thought if you are interested I could, but I don't
25 see it as necessary.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well ...
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's a question whether you would have -- want to
4 put that before us and if that's the case, of course, the appropriate way
5 of doing it would have been to do it during examination-in-chief --
6 Mr. Mladic, no comment.
7 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Stojkovic is coming after his wife and I can deal
8 with it --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. Yes, and --
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: It doesn't arise from cross-examination --
12 MR. LUKIC: I withdraw the question.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no other questions either?
14 The Judges also have no further questions for you. Therefore,
15 Ms. Stojkovic, I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to
16 The Hague and for having answered not that many but at least the
17 questions that you were put to you both by the parties and by the Bench.
18 I wish you a safe return home again.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your kindness and
21 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: It was time for the break already a bit earlier, but
25 we'll take the break now and we'll resume at a quarter to 2.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 1.21 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness.
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. We are calling Mr. Stojkovic,
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Stojkovic. Before you give
9 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration of which
10 the text is now handed out to you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: ZARKO STOJKOVIC
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please be seated, Mr. Stojkovic.
16 Mr. Stojkovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You'll
17 find Mr. Lukic to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Stojkovic.
22 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.
23 Q. I will pause after your answers so as to give the interpreters
24 time to interpret.
25 For the record, kindly state your first and last name.
1 A. Zarko Stojkovic.
2 Q. Mr. Stojkovic, did you at some point in time provide a statement
3 to the members of General Mladic's Defence team?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D1751 on our
7 [In English] Can I kindly ask the usher to provide Mr. Stojkovic
8 with his written statement.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Stojkovic, you have your statement in hard
10 copy, and you can see it on your right-hand side screen. On the first
11 page, do you see a signature?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recognise the signature?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Whose signature is it?
16 A. My own.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at the last page of the
19 Q. Do you see a signature on this page as well?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Do you recognise it?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Whose signature is it?
24 A. Also mine.
25 Q. Mr. Stojkovic, did you have occasion to review your statement
1 before today's testimony?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Does -- do the contents of the statement, as put on paper,
4 correctly and fairly state what you mentioned to the members of
5 General Mladic's Defence team?
6 A. They do.
7 Q. Is what is contained in the statement truthful and accurate?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. If I were to put the same questions today, would you provide
10 basically the same answers?
11 A. In full.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender Mr. Stojkovic's
14 statement into evidence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
16 Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D01751 receives Exhibit D1203,
18 Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: D1203 is admitted.
20 MR. LUKIC: We would have some questions after we read short
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please read it and then put the questions to
23 the witness.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Zarko Stojkovic was an officer in VJ. He will testify that he
1 married Biljana Stojkovic born Djurdjevic on 16 July 1995 in
2 Voznjesenjska church in Belgrade. He will confirm that their godfathers
3 were Ratko and Bosiljka Mladic, as well as that they were present in
4 Belgrade on this date. On the same wedding day, they were in a
5 restaurant, Dva Ribara, in Belgrade.
6 And that was short statement summary.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please put the questions to the witness you had on
8 your mind --
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you --
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Stojkovic, today we were able to hear that
13 the video recording of your wedding disappeared from your mother-in-law's
14 home. What was the fate of the photographs from the wedding?
15 A. The fate of the photographs was similar to the fate of the tapes,
16 meaning the part of the photographs that were to go to mother-in-law also
17 disappeared while we were out of the country on official business. They
18 disappeared from the house in Krusevac.
19 Q. Were some photographs preserved and, if so, where? Who had them?
20 Were you able to get to some of them later on?
21 A. When we returned to the country, some of the photographs were
22 still in some of the children's photo albums, but now they are gone too.
23 Q. These were the photographs of your children or --
24 A. These were the photographs of our best man and matron of honour
25 with our children and with us.
1 Q. Were you able to locate any wedding photographs after all?
2 A. There are a few, and they are also in my mother-in-law's home.
3 As for the photographs that we had, we were never able to find
5 I apologise.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask a question. How did the
7 photographs in your possession disappear?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't precisely answer that
9 question, given the fact that I was away and out of the country at the
10 time it took place. Several times during our absence, my mother-in-law's
11 house was burglarised and there are also official records of that made by
12 the authorities.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that the photos that were in your
14 mother-in-law's house disappeared and there were burglaries but you
15 talked about photographs in your possession and I'm asking about those
16 ones that were in your possession, how did they disappear not the ones at
17 your mother's place.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps there was a
19 misunderstanding. I apologise and I will clarify some things. All the
20 photographs, albums, and tapes that had to do with the wedding were left
21 in my mother-in-law's house during our absence from the country.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what -- the photographs that you -- were in
23 your children's albums, where were they?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The albums were also handed over.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. In paragraph 4 of your statement, you say that the wedding took
3 place on the 16th of July, 1995. We asked about your best man and matron
4 of honour. I wanted to briefly ask you whether you remember between what
5 times were General Mladic and his wife Bosiljka in your company on 16th
6 July, 1995 and at which locations?
7 A. Ratko and Bosiljka Mladic arrived on the 16th of July around
8 10.00 at our apartment in Narodni Front Street in Belgrade. They were
9 with us until we left to the -- for the church which took place between
10 12.00 and 2.00. After that, at the Dva Ribara restaurant, we continued
11 with a lunch and celebrations until 5.30 or 5.45 when I personally saw
12 them off.
13 Q. In the apartment where you were in the street Narodni Front,
14 well, you're a military man, aren't you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you see the general in that apartment around 10.00? You say
17 that he and his wife arrived? Did he use any communications equipment or
18 a telephone?
19 A. No, he did not. Neither one.
20 Q. I have to ask although it may seem illogical, in church, or in
21 front of the church, so related to the church wedding itself, did the
22 general have any communications equipment and did he use any such thing?
23 A. No. As far as I noticed - and do allow me to say - that during
24 the wedding party itself that ensued, no communication equipment was
25 used, not a telephone either.
1 Q. You told us that you saw off your best man and that matron of
2 honour after the wedding party. How far did you see them off?
3 A. Yes, to the car.
4 Q. Did General Mladic drive that car or was it somebody else?
5 A. Somebody else.
6 Q. Did you wait for General Mladic and his wife to get into the car?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see the interior of the car?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In that car, did you notice any communications equipment?
11 A. I did not.
12 Q. Mr. Stojkovic, this was brief. Your statement has already been
13 admitted into evidence. Thank you. This is all that the Defence of
14 General Mladic had for you at this moment. Thank you.
15 A. Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give an opportunity to cross-examine the
17 witness, Judge Fluegge would have one or more questions for the witness.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Stojkovic. You told us about the photo
19 albums given to your mother-in-law. How many were they?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One for each child.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't know the number of your children.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. Two. Two albums. Two
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Who put -- who compiled these photo albums? Who
25 put these photos in the albums?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally and my wife Biljana.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: From whom did you receive those photos?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are photographs from family
4 celebrations. So these are our personal photographs.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Made by your own photo equipment.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Personally.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You, yourself, and your family members took these
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. Family members and
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I ask you these questions because I don't see any
12 reference is to photo albums and photos in your statement. In your
13 statement, paragraph 8 and 9, you are talking about cassettes received
14 from cameraman, Radovan Popovic.
15 Can you explain that further?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since the question was related only
17 to the wedding, it was cassettes that were related to the wedding.
18 However, this is personal, and it was not a subject that was a subject of
19 the questions.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You, in answering questions by the -- by
21 Mr. Lukic, you referred to photo albums. And in your statement we have
22 received now in evidence, you are talking about cassettes from cameraman
23 Radovan Popovic. I don't fully understand why, in the statement, you are
24 referring to cassettes and in your examination-in-chief you are referring
25 to photo albums with photographs, you explained, taken by you and family
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in relation to this, I
3 shall repeat what I said and shall expand the statement that I made since
4 we were talking about cassettes all the time, because these cassettes
5 were recorded on the day of the 16th of July; whereas, the albums pertain
6 to a certain period of time of our family life and pictures that do not
7 pertain to that period. That is why there weren't any questions about
8 cassettes and pictures, since, now, the question was about pictures with
9 General Mladic, and we were talking about cassettes because they were
10 related to the day of the 16th of July, when our wedding took place.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I understand it better now. And what was stolen
12 by the burglaries?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean what was stolen where? My
14 mother-in-law's house? Are we talking about the Krusevac case? Is that
15 what you mean? I do apologise. But if you could kindly explain this to
16 me a bit. Which location do you mean?
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The residence of your mother-in-law.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mm-hm. After we took a look and
19 when this happened, we realised that the cassettes and pictures were
20 missing from family celebrations and from the wedding, those that were at
21 the house of my mother-in-law in Krusevac.
22 Now whether they were stolen, I personally did not state any such
23 thing, nor would I dare do that because I am not a competent organ.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for answering these questions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, are you ready to cross-examine the
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojkovic, you'll now be cross-examined by
4 Mr. McCloskey. Mr. McCloskey is counsel for the Prosecution.
5 Please proceed, although for not more than five minutes.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
7 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. We know you're a military man. Are you retired or are in active
10 service or reserves?
11 A. Active service.
12 Q. And what's your current rank?
13 A. Lieutenant-colonel.
14 Q. All right. Colonel, well, where were you born?
15 A. In Uzicka Pozega in Serbia.
16 Q. And where did you grow up?
17 A. I grew up in Pozega until I finished elementary school and then I
18 left in order to continue my schooling.
19 Q. And you were -- were you in the VJ, the -- from 1992 through
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did you participate in any of the wars that occurred,
23 beginning 1991, in Croatia or Bosnia or anywhere else?
24 A. I did not participate in the war in Bosnia in that period. In
25 the period of 1991 and 1992, I was carrying out duties within the
1 Yugoslav People's Army, the JNA, securing the territory.
2 Q. Did you get to Vukovar?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So were you ever present in any war theatre from 1991 through the
5 end of the war in 1995?
6 A. It depends on what is meant by "war theatre" in that period.
7 Could you please be more specific when putting that question to me? Does
8 it pertain to the region or what was it that you meant?
9 Q. Were you in Bosnia during the Bosnian war.
10 A. No.
11 Q. You --
12 A. No.
13 Q. You never went to Bosnia during the war period?
14 A. Mm-hm.
15 Q. We didn't get your short response --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It was just "for" and did
17 not continue the sentence.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. Okay. So you never even travelled to Bosnia between May 1992 and
21 December 1995?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And did you assist the war effort for the VRS in any way?
24 A. I find that question to be unclear.
25 Q. What was your specialty in, let's say, 1995?
1 A. In 1995, I was in school in Belgrade, when I got married. I
2 arrived Belgrade in 1994 for my schooling.
3 Q. So what was your specialty in 1993 were you armour, infantry or
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I see it's quarter past 2.00.
6 Therefore, we'll adjourn for the day.
7 Mr. Stojkovic, we'll have to adjourn for the day. We'd like to
8 see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 but I hereby instruct you that you
9 should not speak with anyone, and that includes your wife, or communicate
10 in any other way about your testimony. Now, I think it would be --
11 you're not allowed to talk about your testimony. Talking about the
12 testimony of your wife would come down to the same because it touches
13 upon the same subject matter, so you should refrain from any conversation
14 with whomever, including your wife, about the events on the 16th of July,
15 1995 or anything related to that.
16 Is that clear to you?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fully.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning,
19 9.30. You may now follow the usher.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,
22 Thursday, the 20th of August, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
23 courtroom, I.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 20th day of
1 August, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.