Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 38081

 1                           Thursday, 20 August 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             No preliminaries were announced.  Therefore, we'll wait for the

12     witness to enter the courtroom.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Stojkovic.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojkovic, I'd like to remind you that you're

17     still bound by the solemn declaration you've given yesterday at the

18     beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole

19     truth, and nothing but the truth.  And Mr. McCloskey will now continue

20     his cross-examination.

21             Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And good morning.

23     Good morning, everyone.

24                           WITNESS:  ZARKO STOJKOVIC [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 38082

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

 2        Q.   Good morning, Colonel.

 3             We left off yesterday, I was asking you about your specialty.  I

 4     was able to see some of your military gazettes last night which for your

 5     promotions noted you as an infantry officer.  So that's right, isn't it,

 6     you're an infantry man?

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please answer the question?  Not just

 8     nodding.  We need it on the transcript.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   So the answer out loud --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we still do not have --

12             MR. LUKIC:  The translation is ongoing all the time.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I haven't replied

14     because I was waiting for the interpreter to conclude.  The answer is

15     yes.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   All right.  Let's -- we'll go to July 1995 now, and your

18     statement which is our number D1203 notes that you were interviewed by

19     Milenko Dundjer on 12 July 2014.  And did you speak to Mr. Dundjer or any

20     other member of the Defence about these events of your wedding, about the

21     material in your report, prior to 12 July 2014?

22        A.   No, I did not.

23        Q.   And your wife's report, D1202, shows us the date of 12 July 2014

24     for her interview with Mr. Dundjer, and -- but it also says that -- she

25     had an interview on the 10th of January, 2012.  And I take it you've

Page 38083

 1     for -- prior to seeing Mr. Dundjer on the 14th -- excuse me.  The 12th of

 2     July, 2014, you had a chance to speak to your wife to -- about the

 3     subject matter that Mr. Dundjer questioned her about in 2012?

 4        A.   Does it have to do whether my wife had seen Mr. Dundjer before?

 5     Is that what you were trying to ask?

 6        Q.   No.  My question was did you -- well, did you have a chance to

 7     talk to your wife about the subject matter that she talked to Dundjer

 8     about in 2012?

 9        A.   There was no need, since it involved our wedding.  We certainly

10     knew what the date of our wedding was, even without Mr. Dundjer.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was not whether there was any need to

12     discuss it.  Did you discuss with your wife what she discussed in 2012

13     when being interviewed?  Did you speak with her about the questions that

14     were asked to her?  And whether there was a need to do that is not

15     something that is of any interest to us.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   So could you answer the question?

18        A.   No, we did not discuss it in this context.  We only discussed the

19     possibility of both of us appearing as witnesses.

20        Q.   So let me take you to the context that -- well, from my

21     perspective.

22             General Mladic has been, in 2012, arrested.  He's going to soon

23     be on trial.  Your wife is interviewed by a Defence investigator and

24     is -- provides information obviously about the events on the day of your

25     wedding.  This was in 2012.  Surely, sir, after your wife -- or before

Page 38084

 1     your wife speaks to this investigator in this utmost serious topic you're

 2     going to talk with your wife about what the investigator asked her and

 3     about what she said.  It's what husbands and wives do.

 4             So you talked to your wife about what the investigator had asked

 5     her about, didn't you?

 6        A.   I repeat:  We mostly discussed the possibility of our appearing

 7     as witnesses at Mr. Mladic's trial, relating to the events that we have

 8     been discussing.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, the first sentence of your

10     question:  "General Mladic has been, in 2012, arrested."

11             Are you sure that this date is correct?

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think I meant to say he been arrested and I

13     believe he had been arrested by that time, but I may be wrong.  It was a

14     long time ago.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's how I understood it, that you just

16     referred to a time-frame in which Mr. Mladic had already been arrested.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's leave it to that --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and -- perhaps the witness could answer the

21     question now directly.  Because you said what you mostly discussed.  The

22     question was whether you also discussed the questions that were put to

23     your wife and what she said in 2012.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know precisely.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 38085

 1             Please proceed.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I just ask a question for clarification.

 3             What triggered the discussion between your wife and yourself to

 4     discuss the possibility of you becoming witnesses in this case?  What was

 5     the reason had you to discuss the fact that you may be called as

 6     witnesses?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember precisely.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You don't remember.  Thank you so much.

 9             Carry on.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   So, sir, before your statement in 2014, you did have a chance to

12     speak with your wife about some of the events at the wedding,

13     specifically when General Mladic arrived, how long he stayed, that kind

14     of thing.  There's nothing wrong with that, sir.  You can talk with your

15     wife to help refresh her recollection.  So didn't you talk with your wife

16     to help each other refresh your recollection about when General Mladic

17     came and how long he stayed?  Didn't you do that before your statement?

18        A.   We both knew the sequence of events.  There was no need to try to

19     harmonise things in detail or discuss the matter further.

20        Q.   Sir, I didn't suggest harmonise.  I said help refresh your

21     recollection.  So is your answer that you didn't talk to your wife before

22     you talked to the investigator to help refresh your recollection about

23     what happened when Mladic came, how long he stayed?

24        A.   For the most part, my wife and I discussed the matter with the

25     investigators.

Page 38086

 1        Q.   As you've mentioned before, what you did mostly or for the most

 2     part is not very helpful.  So can you acknowledge now that you and your

 3     wife did talk about the details of when Mladic arrived, how long he

 4     stayed, before you spoke to the investigator?

 5        A.   Yes, but not in detail.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And when you spoke to the investigator, was your wife with

 7     you?

 8        A.   During my interview with the investigator, she was not.

 9        Q.   And during her interview with the investigators, were you with

10     her?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to the restaurant.  And what time do you recall

13     General Mladic arriving at the restaurant on the 16th of July?

14        A.   Please allow me to say that I already said yesterday that we left

15     our apartment together for the church.  We were together at the church

16     throughout the wedding ceremony and after that, again all of us,

17     including ourselves, General Mladic and the guests --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... for one reason

19     or another you think we're interested in things not asked.  The

20     question -- can you hear me through the interpretation?  If you'd just

21     focus on what is asked -- but any problem on the B/C/S channel?  Not.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's fine now.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you please answer the question.  For one

24     reason or another, you think that we're interested in things we're not

25     asking you, or Mr. McCloskey is not asking you.  At what time, as far as

Page 38087

 1     you remember, did Mr. Mladic arrive at the restaurant?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise if I was

 3     misunderstood.  That was not my intention.  I simply wanted to summarise

 4     something I had already said.  But do allow me to provide a direct answer

 5     to Mr. Prosecutor's question.

 6             General Mladic, ourselves, and the guests, once the wedding

 7     ceremony was over, around 2.00, we arrived at the restaurant.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   And you say "around 2.00."  So given that had happened almost --

10     well, when you first started -- when your wife was first asked about it

11     in 2012, it happened a long time ago before you started talking about it.

12     So when you say "around 2.00," would that give or take an hour, give or

13     take 30 minutes?  What's your best "around" estimate?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So give or take an hour is fair, given the time distance and the

16     memory issues?

17        A.   An hour would be too much.  And I don't think it was before 2.00.

18     I don't think we arrived at the restaurant before 2.00.

19        Q.   And when were you able to remember it was around 2.00?  Because

20     it's not in your statement.  Just now?

21        A.   I was not asked about the time.  I know that the wedding ceremony

22     had been scheduled to take place between noon and 2.00 p.m.

23        Q.   Okay.  So it's based on your memory of the wedding schedule, not

24     the actual time you arrived there?  Which is fair enough.  Even I

25     remember the time of my wedding.

Page 38088

 1             Okay.  I'm sorry, I was talking and so they probably didn't hear

 2     your answer.  Let me just continue then, I think.  Can you tell us

 3     that -- now, at the restaurant, was this a sit-down meal, or was it one

 4     of these buffet affairs where people get their meals at the buffet and

 5     sit around at tables, or was this a more formal, everybody sits down at

 6     one table and gets served?

 7        A.   It was a wedding lunch, meaning the people were seated at the

 8     table.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And when you first got to the restaurant, were there --

10     was there a like a small gathering in another room where people had

11     perhaps drinks or snacks then got together before they actually sat down?

12     Or did people, were they invited into the restaurant and sat down at the

13     table?

14        A.   Once they entered the restaurant, they sat down.

15        Q.   And was there music played at the restaurant once people sat

16     down, or before?

17        A.   Music began after they were seated.

18        Q.   Can you -- do you remember roughly how long after people were

19     seated that the music started?

20        A.   I can't remember precisely, but I know that the musicians stayed

21     until 8.00 p.m., for sure.

22        Q.   That's how long they stayed, but my question was how long after

23     people sat down at the table did the music start playing.

24        A.   I can't remember precisely.

25        Q.   And were there drinks served at the restaurant?

Page 38089

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Wine?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Beer?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And did General Mladic have his share of those drinks, any of

 9     those?

10        A.   Only to make the toast.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, the last item on the drinking list is

12     not there because you spoke too early.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Slivovitz.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, we best get the slivovitz at the wedding on

16     the record.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It's on there now.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   And what beverage did General Mladic use in his toast?

21        A.   I can't remember precisely.

22        Q.   And what beverage were you drinking at the restaurant?

23        A.   Wine.

24        Q.   Any slivovitz?

25        A.   Only at the beginning, to join the toast.

Page 38090

 1        Q.   And I take it over this long evening of your wedding, you had a

 2     few drinks and you were feeling good -- good about the day.

 3        A.   If you are in charge of organising things, you have to bear in

 4     mind your conduct, no matter how much you drink.

 5        Q.   I agree, but let's get how much you did drink.  Did you drink

 6     enough so you could feel the alcohol?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Now, Did you have a chance to dance with your bride at the

 9     restaurant?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And about what time were you able to dance with your bride?

12        A.   I can't remember specifically.  It depended on the music.

13        Q.   And at the time you were dancing with your wife, you --

14     General Mladic could have gone up and -- and left the area to the

15     restroom for a few minutes, I take it?

16        A.   Not without me noticing.

17        Q.   So did General Mladic ever leave during this period of time from

18     2.00 p.m. to 5.30 and go to the restroom?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Colonel, did he get up and take a break and go outside ever to --

21     or your eyes were on him the entire time?

22        A.   Yes, he was before me throughout that time.

23        Q.   Now let's go to a photo that the Defence provided us of your

24     wedding.  It's 32879.  And if Ms. Stewart could put it in, in Sanction I

25     think we might get a clearer picture of it?

Page 38091

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  While this comes up I would like to ask a

 2     question for the witness.

 3             Mr. Stojkovic, did anybody smoke during the long dinner or lunch?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Do you mean in the room or

 5     outside?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is my question to you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the people were smoking --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

 9     be asked to move away from the microphone.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You were asked to move a little away from the

11     microphone because it's difficult for the interpreters to listen.

12             I understand the people were smoking in the dining-room; correct?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It was allowed.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you smoke?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, yes.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did General Mladic smoke?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. McCloskey.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, before we continue, I'd like to put a

21     few questions --

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could I correct a misstatement I made just now.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We haven't seen it yet, but we are about to see a

25     photograph that actually was not provided by the Defence.  We picked it

Page 38092

 1     up ourselves so ...

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have two short questions.  How did you move

 3     from the apartment to the church?  Did you walk?  Were you in cars?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We walked.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  How did you move from the church to the restaurant?

 6     Did you walk?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Also.  We walked, all of us

 8     together.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   Now, let's take a look at this photograph, if we can;

13     65 ter 32879.

14             Do you see that photograph, sir?

15        A.   Not yet.

16        Q.   Sorry, it'll come up.

17             Do you see it now?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And for the record we see General Mladic near the centre of the

20     photograph.  It appears to be a cigarette in his left hand, would you

21     agree?

22        A.   Yes.  But since I was a smoker myself, I didn't pay any attention

23     to one cigarette in one day.

24        Q.   Yes.  Well, we've seen General Mladic smoking in the

25     Hotel Fontana while speaking to people.  So we know he smokes more than

Page 38093

 1     just one cigarette at one wedding.  Are you suggesting this was the only

 2     cigarette General Mladic had at your wedding, your wedding dinner?

 3        A.   Probably.  I'm not sure.

 4        Q.   It was a long time ago.  You really can't be sure how many

 5     cigarettes General Mladic smoked or how many times he went to the

 6     restroom, can you?

 7        A.   As for cigarettes, I cannot be sure.  As for the restroom, I do

 8     know that he did not leave the room.

 9        Q.   Yes.  And is this a picture of your wedding dinner at the

10     restaurant?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   We see your bride next to General Mladic, and then we see you as

13     a slightly younger man with your hand to your chin?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we focus in a bit on General Mladic's

16     watch.

17        Q.   Now, it's not perfect, but if you look at your watch and you kind

18     of tilt it like that, what time does that look like to you?

19        A.   1500 hours.

20        Q.   I thought it looked more like 1400 hours.  But it is fuzzy.

21        A.   It looks like 1500 to me.  Rather.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  The Chamber is in a position to -- to analyse

23     what the Chamber sees and we do understand that you consider it to be

24     more 1500 hours and that the witness rather thinks as that -- the witness

25     rather thinks that it's 1500 hours and you think it's rather 1400 hours.

Page 38094

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes but I don't intend --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed --

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- to take it any further, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   And I want to show you one thing to see if it will refresh your

 5     recollection.  You're a military man.  General Mladic was a military man.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go, as the last exhibit,

 7     Mr. President -- I would offer this into evidence and I don't know if the

 8     Court wants the blow-up or wants -- I think you can probably --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Once it is in evidence, the Chamber and the Judges,

10     Mr. McCloskey, believe it or not, are able to zoom in and out.  And if

11     there's any expert better matter of looking at that time, then please

12     present that, but just zooming in and out is within our competence.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think Your Honour knows I -- well, I think I

14     know you're playing with me, so I take it as that.  But if you ever need

15     Ms. Stewart's and Sanction's help to do what we did in court today we're

16     always at your service.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could -- I'd offer that into evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it uploaded into e-court.  It is, Madam Registrar

20     the number would be.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 32879 receives Exhibit P7511,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

24             Could I ask one question for the witness.  Did I understand you

25     well, that on from when you met - I think that was at 10.00 in the

Page 38095

 1     morning - up to the time Mr. Mladic left the restaurant which covers a

 2     time of approximately seven to eight hours that neither you nor he went

 3     to the restroom.  Is that ...

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean irrespective of the

 5     wedding dinner?  You are referring to the entire period from 10.00 a.m.

 6     at the apartment onwards?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But if you want to split it up, that's fine.

 8     If you say I saw him going to the restroom in the apartment or during the

 9     ceremony in church, that's fine.  But you said you didn't lose him out of

10     sight during that whole period so that's the reason why I'm asking it for

11     the whole period.  But if you can be more specific, please tell us.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question was not from 10.00

13     a.m. onwards.  It was about the meal in the dining-room, and that's why I

14     said that we were in the dining-room all the time in the restaurant.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I'm now extending that question where your

16     statements says that you're always with him and you didn't lose him out

17     of sight from when he arrived.  Could you tell us, neither you nor he did

18     go to the restroom when you were in the restaurant.  Is that well

19     understood?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, from 12.00 to 2.00, you said it was the

22     ceremony in church.  You walked there.  You walked from there to the

23     restaurant.  Did you or he go to the restroom during those two hours?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Since that is not allowed

25     during the church ceremony.

Page 38096

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, from 10.00 to 12.00, from the moment he arrived

 2     at your apartment and up to the moment where you arrived at the church,

 3     Walking there, did you or he go to the restroom during those two hours?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not recall exactly.  Probably.

 5     Since it's a small apartment.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I do not know whether in a small apartment you

 7     go more to the restroom and in a large apartment, so leave that aside.

 8             So you say you don't know whether you or he went to the restroom

 9     between 10.00 and 12.00 but from 12.00 to anywhere between 5.00 and 6.00

10     up to the moment that Mr. Mladic left the restaurant you, neither he, did

11     go to the restroom.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, that's the

13     way it was.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, are you sure about it; or do you say, Well, it

15     may have been but ...

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, that's the

17     way it was.  I cannot express myself in any other way:  As far as I can

18     remember, after all, there is a time-period involved.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just one question.

22             Sir, at the restaurant -- I'm talking to you.  At the restaurant,

23     did you -- did anybody else other than Mr. Mladic go to the restroom.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably.  Probably.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You say probably because you didn't observe

Page 38097

 1     anybody going to the restroom.  You don't remember observing anybody

 2     going to the restroom?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't remember since I was

 4     sitting at the head table, and there were about 80 people present all

 5     together.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And quite possibly some people went to the

 7     restroom without you noticing.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Except for those who sat at

 9     the head table.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but there was dancing at a certain time,

11     isn't it so, and the people sitting at the head table sort of spread

12     around and started dancing.  Is that not so?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... at that time,

15     you would have been dancing with your wife and concentrating on the dance

16     with your wife?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... in those

19     circumstances anybody on the dance floor could have gone to the bathroom

20     without you noticing.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the dance floor, one could see

22     the head table the most.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... there's nobody

24     at the head table.  Everybody's on the dance floor.  I'm asking the

25     question during that dancing anybody could have gone to the bathroom

Page 38098

 1     without you noticing.  You were concentrating on the dance with your

 2     wife.  Is that not so?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  But the question had to do

 4     with General Mladic, who did not dance, and he was sitting at the head

 5     table.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Mladic did not dance?  Is that your testimony?

 7     He sat at the head table right through the dinner?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, yes.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   Would it help your recollection if I told you we've seen

11     General Mladic's home videos at weddings.  He's quite a dancer.  Doesn't

12     that help you remember that he liked to dance at weddings and he actually

13     danced at your wedding?

14        A.   I cannot remember exactly.

15        Q.   Okay.  Is this photo -- excuse me?

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One short question.

17             Where in this restaurant was the restroom?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Outside the dining-room.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  On which floor?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the first floor.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What floor is the restaurant itself?  On what

23     floor is the restaurant itself?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same one where the dining-room

25     is.

Page 38099

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... on what floor

 2     is that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First floor.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Or the floor in between.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In between what?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of the apartment building.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I am completely lost now.  I don't understand your

 9     answer, sir.  I'm not -- the floor in between the apartment building.

10     The apartment building and what?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The restaurant and its dining-room

12     are located within an apartment building, and the restaurant and its

13     dining-room are on the first floor.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And the toilet, the restroom?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Likewise.  Likewise.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  That's what I wanted to

17     establish.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and earlier you said "or the floor in between."

19             Did you mean to say that there was a kind of a semi- or half

20     floor or halfway the stairs from one floor to another, that it could have

21     been there?  If you don't remember, just tell us.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  I was determining the

23     floors in relation to height, so it is definitely the first floor.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Just one last exhibit and a short

Page 38100

 1     series of questions.

 2             Could we go to P01338.

 3        Q.   Sir, you're active lieutenant-colonel in the VJ.  You've

 4     certainly heard of General Vinko Pandurevic?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We need to go to the next page.  Sorry, this is

 7     the wrong one.  P1338.  Okay.  Thank you.  That's right.

 8        Q.   What was your rank on the day of your wedding?

 9        A.   Captain first class.

10        Q.   And had you heard of -- on your wedding -- actually, I believe he

11     was a colonel, Vinko Pandurevic, at the time.

12        A.   I cannot remember exactly.

13        Q.   Okay.  What we have in front of us here is an intercepted

14     communication by the Bosnian State Security Service on 16 July 1995 at

15     1615 hours, the time that you were at the restaurant, and we see that

16     this is between the Main Staff duty officer, and that means the

17     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska who was located, at the time,

18     in Crna Rijeka, and General Mladic.  And they couldn't make out -- the

19     intercepters couldn't make out General Mladic's part of the conversation.

20     But we can see from the -- from what the duty officer is saying, he's

21     giving information about the president called a short while ago and, in

22     our view, that would be President Karadzic.  He mentions Pandurevic,

23     other officials, and what I was wondering if you take a careful look at

24     this intercept, which the Prosecution believes, sir, is absolutely

25     genuine, do you remember General Mladic mentioning anything to you about

Page 38101

 1     the goings-on over in Bosnia, anything about the president, anything

 2     about Pandurevic?  Anything like that?

 3        A.   No, never.

 4        Q.   And when General Mladic, he left the restaurant early; right?

 5        A.   At 1730 he said good-bye, and I saw him off at 1730.

 6        Q.   Yes, but that was earlier than everyone else.

 7        A.   No.  There were people who left even earlier.  They had to

 8     because of transportation since there were wedding guests who were coming

 9     in from outside Belgrade.  There were some like that too.

10        Q.   But is it fair to say he excused himself and cited official

11     duties?

12        A.   He didn't mention any such thing.

13        Q.   Well, when your wife testified, page 38058, starting at line 24

14     the question -- well, 20.  Question says:  "To the best of your

15     knowledge, do you remember when General Mladic and his wife left your

16     wedding?"

17             And what she said was:  "Yes.  I think I pointed out in my

18     statement it was around 5.30.  I don't know whether it was a minute or

19     two before or later, but definitely around 5.30 or quarter to 6.00.  That

20     is when he left the dining hall at the Dva Ribara restaurant where the

21     ceremonial lunch took place.  He excused himself, citing official

22     duties."

23             And I quote your wife:  "He excused himself, citing official

24     duties."

25             And then she said:  "I stayed in the dining hall with my guests

Page 38102

 1     while my husband escorted him to the car."

 2             So you would agree with your wife, would you not, that she's

 3     correct?  Perhaps you didn't hear Mladic tell that to her, but she said

 4     he excused himself, citing official duties.  So would you support your

 5     wife on that?

 6        A.   I'm not sure about official duties, but I am sure that he excused

 7     himself and said good-bye.

 8        Q.   You have no reason to believe your wife is not telling the truth

 9     about that statement, do you?

10        A.   Of course.  Since, when one leaves a wedding, one says good bye

11     to the bride and the groom.  So I do not rule out the possibility that

12     that is what she was told, but I did not hear that.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I have.  No, I first give an opportunity -- any

15     questions arising from cross, Mr. Lukic, which you'd like to address.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, but can I consult with my client

17     for a second.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you can.  But, again, it's not the first time

19     that Mr. Mladic speaks at audible volume and that is the only thing he is

20     not allowed to do.  So take care that nothing can be heard by others.

21                           [Defence counsel confer]

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 38103

 1                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day once again.

 3        A.   Good day, Mr. Lukic.

 4        Q.   Please let us focus now on the arrival in the Dva Ribara

 5     restaurant.  You were asked whether it was an hour before or later, and

 6     you said it's around 2.00, not earlier.  Can you say that an hour was too

 7     long?  How much later?  Can you tell us now?  Five, ten minute, half an

 8     hour later?

 9        A.   As far as I can remember, around 1400 hours, we left the church

10     on foot towards the restaurants and that is why I said "around 1400

11     hours."

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Question -- how far --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the logical follow-up question is how far is it

14     from the church to the restaurant, 500 metres, 200 metre, 1 kilometre?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A couple of hundred metres.  500

16     metres maximum.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so it wouldn't take more than ten, 15 minutes

18     at the most.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, calculating already that walking in a wedding

21     dress doesn't go as fast as in a normal dress.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] It had been put to you that the general liked to

25     dance at parties.  You told us that you do not remember that he danced.

Page 38104

 1     What happened in the Mladic family during that last year, a year and a

 2     bit, before your wedding?  Did some misfortune befall the family?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you remember what happened in the Mladic family?

 5        A.   They lost their daughter, Ana.

 6        Q.   You said that you did not lose sight of the general.  What kind

 7     of status does the best man enjoy in our part of the world?

 8        A.   The best man, much like in the English culture, it entails

 9     someone of high moral principle, exemplary conduct, and family

10     orientation.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Could we look at the intercept before us, P1338.

12             My colleague, Mr. McCloskey also said --

13        A.   Yes, it's on the screen.

14        Q.   My learned friend Mr. McCloskey told you that those intercepting

15     such conversations were unable to hear General Mladic in this case.  In

16     the intercept itself, among the words uttered by the participants,

17     there's no mention of General Mladic.

18        A.   Yes, that is correct.

19        Q.   At 4.15 on the day of your wedding, to the best of your

20     recollection and to the best of your knowledge, would it have been

21     possible for General Mladic to establish radio communication with the

22     Main Staff of the VRS in Crna Rijeka?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Mr. Stojkovic, let me just ask you this:  Would you say you were

25     drunk at your own wedding?

Page 38105

 1        A.   No way.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  This would be all we had of you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one or two questions for you, Mr. Stojkovic.

 4                           Questioned by the Court:

 5             A statement was taken from you and a statement was taken from

 6     your wife.  Those statements were signed.  Did you read or see the

 7     statement that was taken from your wife?

 8        A.   No.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  To the best of your knowledge, did your wife see or

10     read your statement?

11        A.   Not as far as I know.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you receive a copy of your own statement?

13        A.   Do you mean here or before the trial?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  At any time.  If you did, tell us when.

15        A.   I can't recall.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Not recall when or that you got a copy?

17        A.   I can't recall whether I received one.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you have any recollection as to giving your

19     wife access to the statement that was put on paper for you?

20        A.   No.  Because, as far as I remember, our statements remained with

21     the counsel to whom we had provided them.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And when you were finally prepared for

23     appearing as a witness here, the statement of your wife was not shown to

24     you?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My statement was shown to me when I

Page 38106

 1     arrived here during the proofing I had with Mr. Branko Lukic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you alone during that proofing or were you

 3     together with your wife?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At times, I was together with my

 5     wife, depending on the attorney-at-law's, Mr. Branko Lukic's requests.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So during the part of the proofing, you were there

 7     and your wife was there as well.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you -- at that time, was your statement read to

10     her or was her statement read to you, during that part of the proofing?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking you this for the following reasons, and

13     I'd like you to first listen to what I'm telling you.

14             When your wife was asked at what time Mr. Mladic left the

15     restaurant, she said:  "As I said already in my statement, it was at

16     5.30."

17             Now, in the statement of your wife that time is not mentioned.

18     However, in your statement that time is mentioned.  So I wondered why

19     your wife said:  "As you can see in my statement it was 5.30," where we

20     can only see that in your statement.  Do you have any explanation as to

21     why she would have said:  "As you can see in my statement, it was 5.30,"

22     where it is not in hers but it is in your statement?

23        A.   I do not have a particular explanation, except for the fact that

24     my wife knew the approximate time as well.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I'm focussing not on the time.  I'm

Page 38107

 1     focussing on what she said, that that can be found in his statement,

 2     which was not the case.

 3             I have no further questions.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to make sure I heard you properly --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, no --

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have something.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic.  Sit down.  Sit down.

 8     Mr. Mladic ...

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I still can hear Mr. Mladic so he should really

11     speak at inaudible volume or remain silent.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  You may want to look

13     at paragraph 9 of the wife's statement.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While you do that, can I ask the question I wanted

15     to ask.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  If I made a mistake, of course, I stand to be

17     corrected, but ...

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document should be D1202.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  You said paragraph ...

20             Yes, it says "about."  Where -- I do agree that I -- it -- that

21     it could be understood as mentioning 5.30 and I stand, in that respect,

22     corrected.  And that's -- it's good that you point my attention to it.  I

23     was looking at the figures, 5.30, is in the statement of the husband

24     whereas approximately that time is mentioned in the statement of the

25     wife.  I stand corrected.  I think I have not sufficiently looked at

Page 38108

 1     that.  And if that is what Mr. Mladic wanted to bring to the attention of

 2     Mr. Stojanovic, then I better understand -- then I better understand why

 3     he wanted to intervene immediately.  That's on the record hereby.  I

 4     think Mr. Mladic wanted to convey something else.  You can tell it to

 5     Mr. Stojanovic if there's anything you would like to bring to our

 6     attention.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's fine now, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And I also thank Mr. McCloskey for pointing at this.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, I just wanted one question.

13             Just to make sure I heard you properly, did I hear you correctly

14     that you said when you were with Mr. Lukic together with your wife at the

15     same time, that was at Mr. Lukic's request?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Given the fact that procedurally --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please finish what you started saying.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that it was at

21     Mr. Lukic's request so as to explain to us the procedure and protocols in

22     place before the Tribunal when it comes to witnesses.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, any further questions?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojkovic, this concludes your testimony in this

Page 38109

 1     court.  I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and

 2     for having answered all the questions that were -- all the questions that

 3     were put to you, put to you by the parties, put to you by the Bench.  I

 4     wish you a safe return home again.

 5             You may follow the usher.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber, at least I got a note, that we had

 9     received information that there were no further witnesses available.

10             MR. LUKIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we expected the problems last week and we have

12     the problems now apparently.

13             When will the next witness arrive and when --

14             MR. LUKIC:  Next witness should arrive on Saturday, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  On Saturday.

16             MR. LUKIC:  For Monday.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Any explanation as to why this situation arose.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  There was a scheduled videolink

19     from Banja Luka but Banja Luka court is not operating before the 25th of

20     August, so we were not able to organise that videolink.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We've seen that.  But no other witnesses --

22             MR. LUKIC:  No other witnesses were able to come before the end

23     of this week.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  It's for a fact we can't go on the streets

25     and find witnesses and fill our time.

Page 38110

 1             Therefore --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I have one issue to raise if we are going to finish

 3     the day for today.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No, we are not because we have a lot of items on our

 5     agenda to be read --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Then I can continue after the break.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and we are already late for the break and we

 8     should have stopped 15 minutes ago.

 9             We take a break, and I suggest that we take a break for half an

10     hour and we resume after that.  Any matter you'd like to raise then is --

11     you could do that first and after that we'll deal with quite a few

12     procedural matters.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I was just asked by Mr. Mladic if

14     it is possible for him to leave and not to be present for these

15     procedural matters.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic always can waive his right to be -- to be

17     present during trial.  Whether he can be transported immediately is a

18     matter that's beyond our control, but at least the Registry is now aware

19     of the wish of Mr. Mladic to -- to not further attend.

20             We'll -- one second, please.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  In order to proceed, not having received yet any

23     written waiver, I'd like to have Mr. Mladic, at this moment, confirm

24     orally that he waives his right to be present after the break just for

25     this day.  If he could use the microphone to tell us, then we would have

Page 38111

 1     it on the record.

 2             Mr. Mladic, do you waive your right to attend court for the rest

 3     of this day in which we'll not hear any further evidence but in which

 4     we'll deal with procedural matters.

 5             Could you please respond to that.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Comrade Orie, I waive my right.

 7     And I feel the need to receive my best man and matron of honour in the

 8     Detention Unit --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Mladic, the

10     Court accepts a waiver without being informed of what you'd rather do

11     than be in court.  It's hereby on the record that you waived your right.

12     Therefore, we'll resume at 20 minutes past 11.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.49 a.m.

14                           [The accused withdrew]

15                           --- On resuming at 11.23 a.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I, first of all, put on the record that Mr. Mladic

17     is not present in the courtroom and we heard his waiver just before the

18     last break.

19             I have quite a number of items on my agenda, and I saved them for

20     a rainy day.  I start with the replacement of P2586.

21             On the 21st of April of this year, the Prosecution informed the

22     Chamber and the Defence, via e-mail that a corrected version of P2586 had

23     been uploaded into e-court.  The Prosecution requested the Chamber to

24     instruct the Court Officer to replace P2586 with the version uploaded

25     under Rule 65 ter number 30368b.

Page 38112

 1             On the 22nd of April, the Defence responded, stating that it did

 2     not object.

 3             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the existing

 4     version of P2586 with the uploaded document.

 5             Next item is a remaining issue from the testimony of

 6     Vinko Nikolic.

 7             On the 5th of February of this year, D893, a table of concordance

 8     with regard to the adjudicated facts included in Vinko Nikolic's witness

 9     statement was marked for identification, pending verification of the

10     information contained in the document.  This can be found at transcript

11     pages 31240 through 31243.  As of today's date, the Defence has not

12     verified the information contained in D893.

13             The Chamber sets a deadline of one week from today for the

14     Defence to respond.

15             Next item is a remaining issue from the testimony of

16     Goran Krcmar, P7171.

17             On the 3rd of March of this year, P7171, an UN Security Council

18     document, was marked for identification, pending an agreement between the

19     parties as to the excerpt to be tendered.

20             On the 2nd of April, the Prosecution advised the Chamber via

21     e-mail that:  1, it had informed the Defence of its proposed selection

22     which was uploaded into e-court under 65 ter number 32099a; and, 2, the

23     Defence had not requested the tendering of additional portions.

24             On the 26th of June, the Prosecution sent the Chamber a further

25     e-mail advising that the B/C/S translation of the excerpt had been

Page 38113

 1     uploaded into e-court and attached to the English investigation.

 2             The question arises whether the Defence has any objections to the

 3     admission of the document bearing 65 ter number 32099a.

 4             If you are not in a position to respond, Mr. Lukic, and I see

 5     you're nodding no, which is hereby on the record, the Chamber is hereby

 6     instructing the Registry to assign P7171 to 65 ter number 32099a and

 7     admits it into evidence.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And the Defence is -- does not need to give specific

10     reasons if they want to revisit the matter by not later than next week,

11     Tuesday.  If there are serious portions to be added, Mr. Lukic, then

12     we'll reconsider our decisions without requiring you to give the usual

13     reasons for reconsidering a decision.

14             Four -- number 4 on my agenda is a remaining issue from the

15     testimony of Ian Hanson.  It's about D1084.

16             On the 25th of June, 2015, exhibit number D1084 was reserved for

17     two pages of a document bearing Rule 65 ter number 1D05491.  This can be

18     found at transcript page 36339.

19             The Chamber at that time instructed the Defence to upload these

20     pages into e-court and decided these pages will be admitted once

21     uploaded.

22             On the 9th of July, the Defence advised the Chamber and the

23     Prosecution via e-mail that the pages had been uploaded under the

24     document bearing Rule 65 ter number 1D05491a.

25             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to attach the extracts

Page 38114

 1     to the reserved exhibit number and hereby admits D1084 into evidence.

 2             Next is a remaining issue from the testimony of Milutin Misic.

 3     It's about D1095.

 4             During the testimony of Milutin Misic between 8 and 10 July of

 5     this year, translation issues arose with regard to the documents marked

 6     for identification D1095, D1096, D1105, and D1106.  In the weeks after

 7     his testimony, the Defence advised the Chamber and the Prosecution via

 8     e-mails that the English translations had been uploaded into e-court

 9     under document numbers -- document IDs 1D25-1896, 1D25-2445, 1D25-1762,

10     and 1D25-1906 respectively.

11             With regard to D1105, it concerned a revised translation.  The

12     Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to attach the corresponding

13     translations to D1095, D1096 and D1106 and hereby admits them into

14     evidence, whereby D1096 stays under seal.

15             Lastly, the Chamber instructs the Registry to replace the current

16     translation of D1105 with the revised translation and admits D1105 into

17     evidence.

18             Next on my agenda are remaining issues from the testimony from

19     the testimony of Tihomir Stevanovic.

20             I start with the admission of P7372.

21             On the 7th of May of this year, P7372 was marked for

22     identification pending English translation.  This can be found at

23     transcript page 35257.

24             On the 24th of July, the Prosecution advised the Chamber via

25     e-mail that an English translation had been uploaded into e-court under

Page 38115

 1     document ID 0430-3446-ET-1.

 2             On the 11th of August, the Defence advised the Prosecution and

 3     the Chamber via e-mail that it had no objection.  The Chamber hereby

 4     instructs the Registry to attach the translation and admits P7372 into

 5     evidence.

 6             The next is replacement of P2109.

 7             On the 6th and the 7th of May of this year, during the testimony

 8     of Tihomir Stevanovic, a translation issue arose with Exhibit P2109.

 9     This can be found at transcript pages 35225 and 35250.

10             On the 24th of July, the Prosecution advised the Chamber via an

11     e-mail a revised English translation had been uploaded into e-court under

12     doc ID 0529-6797-ET-1.

13             On the 11th of August, the Defence advised the Prosecution and

14     the Chamber via e-mail that it had no objection.

15             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the current

16     translation of P2109 with the revised translation.

17             I now move to a remaining issue from the testimony of

18     Drasko Vujic.

19             During the testimony of Drasko Vujic on the 4th of May of this

20     year, P7368, a newspaper article from Kozarski Vjesnik dated the 17th of

21     November, 1995 was marked for identification following the Defence's

22     objection to admission.  This can be found at transcript pages 35039

23     through 35040.  The Defence indicated it would address the document

24     during re-examination of the witness.  However, the Defence has not made

25     any further submissions on this matter.  This can be found at transcript

Page 38116

 1     pages 35040 and 35062.

 2             The Chamber sets a deadline of one week from today for the

 3     Defence to respond.

 4             Perhaps it's not much of a response, but at least to make any

 5     submission in relation to the admission of this document.

 6             I now move to remaining issues from the testimony of

 7     Bruno Franjic.

 8             The first one is a revised translation of P7433.  During the

 9     testimony of Bruno Franjic on the 25th of June of this year, the Chamber

10     asked for a review of the English translation of the witness's CV,

11     admitted as P7433.  This can be found at transcript page 36384.

12             On the 16th of July, the Prosecution informed the Chamber in an

13     e-mail that a revised English translation had been uploaded into e-court

14     under number doc ID 0687-0517-ET-1 and requested replacement of the

15     existing translation with the revised version.  In this revised

16     translation, the description of the witness's occupation as "court sworn

17     criminology expert" has now been corrected to "court sworn forensic

18     criminalistics expert."

19             Does the Defence have any objections?

20             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber hereby then instructs the Registry to

22     replace the current the translation of P7433 with the revised

23     translation.

24             Next is the admission of D1085.

25             During the testimony of Franjic on the 29th of June of this year,

Page 38117

 1     exhibit number D1085 was reserved for an excerpt from a brochure from

 2     Unis Igman d.d. Company to be selected and uploaded by the Defence.  This

 3     can be found at transcript pages 36486 through -487.

 4             On the 29th of July, the Defence advised the Chamber in an e-mail

 5     that it had selected pages 1 and 2 of the brochure to be admitted as

 6     D1085.

 7             On 11 August the Defence informed the Chamber that the excerpt

 8     had been uploaded into e-court under 65 ter number 1D05461a and requested

 9     its admission into evidence.

10             Any objections from the Prosecution?

11             You have 48 hours to revisit the matter if you suddenly change

12     your mind and wanted to express any objections.  But the Chamber hereby

13     instructs the Registry to attach the extract as uploaded to the reserved

14     exhibit number and admits D1085 into evidence.

15             And, again, a request for reconsideration doesn't need to be

16     motivated similarly as I -- was the case previous with the Defence.

17             I now to remaining issues from the testimony of Goran Dragojevic.

18             During Goran Dragojevic's testimony on the 14th of May of this

19     year, his 92 ter statement was admitted as Exhibit D1049 together with

20     three associated exhibits.  Those are D1050 through D1052.  This can be

21     found at transcript pages 35591 and 35619.

22             The Chamber notes that the Defence did not seek admission of the

23     other eight associated exhibits included in its 92 ter motion dated the

24     15th of September, 2014.

25             Could the Defence indicate whether it still intends to tender

Page 38118

 1     these associated exhibits or whether they are withdrawn.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I have to revisit the issue and go

 3     through the documents.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll hear from you by next week, Tuesday, and

 5     if do you not make any submissions, they are considered to be withdrawn.

 6             I move onto admission of P6976.

 7             During the testimony of Milorad Sajic, P6976, a video of a

 8     meeting in Banja Luka, was marked for identification.  Subsequently the

 9     Prosecution informed the Defence and the Chamber that a revised English

10     translation of the video's transcript is available.  The Defence

11     indicated that it had no objections.

12             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the English

13     translation of P6976 with the revised version uploaded as doc ID

14     0301-0000b-1 and admitted P6976 into evidence.

15             Next item deals with the replacement of a translation and

16     concerns Exhibit P7023.

17             On the 2nd of April of this year, the Prosecution sent an e-mail

18     informing the Defence and the Chamber that a revised English translation

19     of Exhibit P7023, an excerpt of the 49th Session of the Republika Srpska

20     Assembly, was available under Rule 65 ter number 2410b.

21             The Prosecution indicated that the revised version identifies the

22     speaker as Mr. Karadzic.  However, in identifying the speaker, the

23     revised version adds ten pages of the document to the exhibit.

24     Furthermore, it is sufficiently clear from the transcript of the 18th of

25     December, 2014 in this case that the excerpt contains the words of

Page 38119

 1     Mr. Karadzic.

 2             Under these circumstances, the Chamber denies the Prosecution's

 3     request to replace the English translation of P7023.

 4             I move to the admission of D1083.

 5             On the 23rd of June of this year, D1083 was reserved for an

 6     extract of a document describing data and equipment used by the Ljubija

 7     mining company.  Subsequently, the Defence, in an e-mail, informed the

 8     Chamber and the Prosecution that an excerpt had been uploaded under

 9     Rule 65 ter number 1D05826.

10             The Chamber instructs the Registry to assign Rule 65 ter number

11     1D05826 to Exhibit D1083 and admits it into evidence.

12             I would now read an oral decision on the admission of P6889.

13             The Chamber as I said now delivers its decision on the admission

14     of Exhibit P6889 which was marked for identification during the testimony

15     of Nedjo Vlaski on the 4th of November, 2014.  This document was further

16     used during the testimony of Tomislav Puhalac on 10th of November.

17             On the 4th of November, the Defence challenged the authenticity

18     of P6889 an undated report on meetings between the SDS Main Board and the

19     Crisis Staff between the 1st of the January and the 31st of May, 1992 and

20     objected to its admission.

21             On the 20th of January, 2015, the Prosecution stated that the

22     parties were in discussion about this document, and on the 6th of March,

23     the Prosecution informed the Chamber by e-mail that the parties had not

24     reached an agreement.

25             The Defence submits that P6889 was created by Bosnian Muslims and

Page 38120

 1     not by Serb authorities as Trnovo was at one point under Muslim control.

 2     I refer to transcript pages 27821, 27822, 27846 and the OTP e-mail of the

 3     6th of March.

 4             The Prosecution submits that the Trnovo security service created

 5     this document and that the Sarajevo Agency for Investigation and

 6     documentation recovered it during the reintegration process; transcript

 7     pages 27821 and -822 and 27844.

 8             It further submits that P6889 was created by Serbs on the basis

 9     of the references and the language used in the document, as well as its

10     consistency with other documents that reflect similar records of the same

11     meetings, including P3777 and P6887 to be found at transcript pages 27844

12     and in the e-mail of the 6th of March.

13             The Prosecution noted also that Vlaski at transcript page 27807

14     confirmed his own comments in those meetings as they were recorded in

15     P6889.  The applicable law governing the admission of evidence is set out

16     in Rule 89(C) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence which allows a

17     chamber to admit any relevant evidence which it deems to have probative

18     value.  Authenticity is a factor to be taken into consideration in

19     determining whether the tendered material has probative value.  Definite

20     proof of reliability is not required.  Prima facie evidence of

21     reliability on the basis of sufficient indicia is sufficient to grant

22     admission the Chamber has reviewed P6889 in light of the parties'

23     submissions and the testimonies of Vlaski and Puhalac.  The Chamber notes

24     that the document bears a signatory body which states, "State Security

25     Sector, Trnovo," and that was a quote, and that the Prosecution provided

Page 38121

 1     information on the origin of the document, namely, that it was recovered

 2     by the Agency for Investigation and Documentation.  P6889 is also largely

 3     consistent with other exhibits that describe the same meetings, including

 4     P3777 and P6887.  Vlaski also described parts of P6889 and thereby

 5     implicitly confirmed as accurate the minutes of the meeting as they are

 6     recorded in the document.

 7             Based on the foregoing, the Chamber finds that there are

 8     sufficient indicia for prima facie proof of reliability, that P6889 is

 9     relevant and of probative value pursuant to Rule 89(C) and hereby admits

10     it into evidence.

11             The Chamber, however, emphasises that the weight to be attributed

12     to P6889 will be assessed in the context of all the evidence before the

13     Chamber.

14             The Chamber now moves to translation issue that's rose with

15     regard to P6889 during Vlaski and Puhalac's testimonies.  This can be

16     found at transcript pages 27863 to 27864 and 28026 to 28027.

17             On the 15th of December, 2014, the Chamber informed the Chamber

18     and the Defence by e-mail that a revised English translation had been

19     uploaded into e-court under document 0228 -- yes.  It was the Prosecutor

20     that informed the Chamber on the 15th of December, 2014 that the revised

21     English translation had been uploaded under number 0228-0101-A-ET.

22             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the current

23     translation of P6889 with the revised translation.

24             Finally, the Prosecution is instructed to file notification

25     containing its e-mail dated the 6th of March, 2015 for the record.

Page 38122

 1             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

 2             I now move to the replacement and admission of P6865.

 3             On the 29th of October, 2014, during the testimony of

 4     Slavko Kralj, the Prosecution tendered in intercept bearing 65 ter number

 5     25112 for which the Chamber reserved exhibit number P6865, pending the

 6     uploading of a revised translation.

 7             On the 24th of July of 2015 the OTP indicated in an e-mail that

 8     the revised translation had been uploaded and on the 11th of August, the

 9     Defence responded that it did not object to the revised translation.  The

10     Chamber therefore instructs the Court Officer to replace the existing

11     translation of P6865 with the translation bearing doc ID number

12     0504-7165-ET-1 and admits P6865 into evidence.

13             I move to the admission of D649.

14             On the 19th of September, 2014, during the testimony of

15     Witness GRM246, Exhibit D649 was marked for identification pending the

16     outcome of a discussion between the parties concerning its reliability.

17     This can be found at transcript pages 25917 through 25918.  However, the

18     Chamber has not received any additional submissions since that time.

19             Could the parties tell the Chamber what the result of that

20     discussion was, if there is any result?  And I can imagine that you not

21     be able to do that right way; but if so, you have an opportunity do it

22     now.

23             No one stands up.  Therefore, one week from today is the deadline

24     hereby set for additional submissions on the admission of D649.

25             I move to the replacement and admission of P7019.

Page 38123

 1             On the 17th of December, 2014, during the testimony of

 2     Boro Tadic, Exhibit P7019 was marked for identification due to its

 3     illegibility.  The Prosecution e-mailed the Chamber and Defence on the

 4     same day, stating that it had uploaded a more legible version and

 5     requesting the replacement and admission of the exhibit.

 6             On the 5th of March of this year, the Chamber set a deadline of

 7     seven days for any additional submissions once the Registry had replaced

 8     the exhibit.

 9             On the 7th of March, the Registry filed a memo confirming the

10     exhibit's replacement, after which no additional submissions were made.

11     The Chamber hereby admits Exhibit P7019 into evidence.

12             Next on my list is the admission of P7209.

13             On the 12th of March, 2015, during the testimony of Miso Rodic,

14     Exhibit P7209 was marked for identification pending a English

15     translation.

16             On the 17th of March, the Prosecution e-mailed the Chamber and

17     the Defence, indicating that the translation had been uploaded and that

18     it would request replacement of the existing translation and admission of

19     the document into evidence.

20             The question to the Defence is whether it has any objections to

21     admission?

22             I apply the same system, that is, that the Chamber instructs the

23     Court Officer to replace the existing translation of Exhibit P7209 with

24     the translation bearing doc ID number 0091-6545a and admits P7209 into

25     evidence.

Page 38124

 1             Until Tuesday, Mr. Lukic, you have an opportunity, and you can do

 2     that without motivation, to request the Chamber to reconsider this

 3     decision, of course, then giving the reasons why you oppose the -- why

 4     you object to the admission.  Yes, of course, if you do.

 5             I move to the next item, which is also a remaining issue from the

 6     testimony of Miso Rodic.

 7             On the 12th of March during his testimony, the Defence indicated

 8     that the document bearing Rule 65 ter number 18387 which it had tendered

 9     as an exhibit associated with Rodic's witness statement was mistakenly

10     referenced in that statement.  The Chamber also notes that the document

11     is already in evidence as part of Exhibit P3271.  And for these reasons,

12     the Chamber denies the admission into evidence of the document bearing

13     Rule 65 ter number 18387.

14             I move to my next item which deals with the withdrawal of 92 ter

15     motions for dropped witnesses.

16             On the 6th of February and the 25th of March, 2015, the Defence

17     filed submissions informing the Chamber that it was withdrawing several

18     witnesses who could not be called to testify.  The Chamber considers, in

19     such circumstances, that the corresponding Rule 92 ter motions for such

20     witnesses are also withdrawn and hereby place this is on the record.

21             I move to a remaining issue from the testimony of

22     Bosko Kelecevic.

23             On the 15th of July of this year, P7485, an interview with

24     Bosko Kelecevic, was admitted into evidence.

25             On the 16th of July, the Prosecution requested via e-mail that

Page 38125

 1     P7485 be replaced with an excerpt of the interview which has been

 2     uploaded into e-court as document bearing 65 ter number 32715b.

 3             The question to the Defence is whether there's any objection to

 4     this replacement?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  It is shorter version.  Probably not, but maybe we

 6     should just be given some time to see if we want to include anything for

 7     better understanding purposes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, would it be a problem for you if I

 9     would do it in a similar way, to already instruct and if you revisit the

10     matter by next Tuesday that you don't have to give -- of course, you

11     would have to give the reason why you want to revisit it, but you don't

12     have to motivate why reconsideration is justified.

13             Then the Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace P7485

14     with the document bearing 65 ter number 32715b.

15             I move to the semi-last item which is about D745.

16             On the 5th of November, 2014, during the testimony of

17     Nedjo Vlaski, the Prosecution stated it did not object to the admission

18     of D745 as long as the Defence provided information relating to the

19     source of the document and established personal knowledge foundation

20     through the witness.

21             On the 20th of May of this year, the Defence e-mailed the Chamber

22     and Prosecution and advised that Vlaski:  "Confirmed that the document

23     was provided to him by the Serbian security level."

24             On the 15th of July, the Chamber asked the Prosecution for its

25     position.  As at today's date the Prosecution has not responded, and the

Page 38126

 1     Chamber therefore sets a deadline of one week for the Prosecution to

 2     provide its submissions.

 3             The very last item, D768.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to be sure that the record will be even more

 6     perfect than it is already, page 45, line 17, reads that Vlaski had

 7     confirmed that the document was provided to him by the Serbian -- let me

 8     now check.  "By the Serbian security service."

 9             I now really move to my last item, D768.

10             During the testimony of Cedo Sipovac on 12 November 2014, D768

11     was marked for identification pending translation and use with another

12     witness.  The translation issue was resolved on the 3rd and the 24th of

13     February, 2015.

14             On the 12th of March, D768 was tendered through Miso Rodic and,

15     on the same date, a new translation arose, and therefore D768 remained

16     marked for identification.

17             It was about failing translation or missing translation of

18     handwriting in that document.

19             Thereafter, the Chamber asked the Defence four times - on the

20     10th of April and the 30th of April via an e-mail, and on the 14th of

21     May and the 8th of July in court - for an update on the progress of the

22     revised translation.

23             Can the Defence inform the Chamber within one week of the

24     progress of the revised the translation.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I can do that now, Your Honour.

Page 38127

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Whenever I expect you --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Not this one.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Not this one.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I spoke with my Case Manager he sent this for revised

 5     translation to CLSS and they were not able to see what we were asking

 6     from them although it is partially visible on the document and I think

 7     that the witness also read it on the transcript that it was instead of

 8     Croatian it was Yugoslav nationality of this man.  So we can accept that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If the parties -- you'll understand that I

10     don't have it on the top of my head available at this moment.  Could the

11     parties seek an agreement that on some handwriting is missing, that the

12     parties agree on what it is and most likely that would be what the

13     witness read it to be, and that the parties are satisfied that the

14     translation of what the witness read in court is correctly to be found in

15     the transcript in the English transcript.

16             If could you agree on that.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.  We'll -- Mr. Lukic and I will

18     speak.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll speak to each other.  And then we'd like to

20     hear from you by not later than next week.

21             And that would celebrate the fifth occasion on which the matter

22     was raised.  I'm not going to congratulate you on that, Mr. Lukic,

23     especially because I understand that you sent it for translation but

24     there were some problems.

25             Is there anything the parties would like to raise at this very

Page 38128

 1     moment?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  If I may be the first, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, there is a deadline for the Defence to respond

 5     to P7510 and it's the map of Vlasenica in regard of elevation lines, and

 6     we cannot respond today.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You cannot respond today --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Because we just got the bigger map from the

 9     Prosecution at the beginning of this session so we need somebody who

10     knows how to read a map.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well.

12             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... it's quite simple

14     elevation lines connect points which are at the same elevation and by

15     looking at them thoroughly, you can see where the hills are and where it

16     goes down.  And usually the map explains what is the difference in

17     altitude between two lines and often on every 50 or 100 metres, you would

18     find somewhere on that line what altitude, what elevation, that line

19     presents.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  But since there were some issues

21     in regard of obstacles, those obstacles could be seen on this bigger map

22     as well.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Obstacles.  You mean hills.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Mountains.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mountains, yes.  It seems to be a very purely

Page 38129

 1     technical matter.  What about a cup of tea or cup of coffee together with

 2     Mr. McCloskey and the map.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  We have a meeting after this session.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Can I order coffee or tea already

 5     or ...

 6             Okay.  We'll hear from you not later than next week.  Yes?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  That's fine, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Any other matter?  Nothing?  You don't want to

 9     announce, Mr. McCloskey, that you have a meeting with Mr. Lukic after

10     this.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.  I -- there are a couple of things I owe you

12     from questions in past witnesses and I will gather those together and let

13     you know where we are because some of them have taken a long time dealing

14     with governments and UN organisations, but I will get organised like you

15     just did and get back to you.  And we may have others as well.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's promising that you may have others as

17     well.

18             One second, please.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If nothing then remains, we adjourn for the day, and

22     we'll resume Monday, the 24th of August, 9.30 in the morning, in this

23     same courtroom, I.

24                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.12 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 24th day of August,

Page 38130

 1                           2015, at 9.30 a.m.