Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 38468

 1                           Monday, 31 August 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             While we're waiting for the witness to enter the courtroom,

11     Mr. Lukic, and I'm addressing lead counsel at this moment, the Chamber is

12     still in some uncertainty about the witnesses to that will appear this

13     week.  Especially in view of the videolink, we'd like to know as soon as

14     possible what we could expect.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I think I can already

16     answer your question.

17             We have a witness who is coming tonight, but we will not be able

18     to put him on stand tomorrow morning since we have to see him first, so

19     probably we will have nobody for Tuesday but we will proceed on Wednesday

20     with the next witness.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and that will be Mr. Kenic [phoen].

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.  That's the only thing you have.

25             Good morning, Mr. Tusevljak.  Not very polite of us to continue

Page 38469

 1     to deal with out matters when you entered the courtroom, but [Overlapping

 2     speakers] ...

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that

 5     you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the

 6     beginning of your testimony that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth

 7     and nothing but the truth.

 8             Mr. Lukic, you may continue.  However, my time records tells me

 9     that where you say you would need one and a half to two hours, that

10     you're four minutes off from two hours which is pretty close.

11             So, therefore, do your best.  Please proceed.

12             MR. S. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           WITNESS:  SIMO TUSEVLJAK [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Examination by Mr. S. Lukic: [Continued]

16        Q.   [Interpretation] On Thursday, we stopped at video 1D6006C.  Since

17     there was this small omission on my part, I would like to ask that the

18     video be played again, 1D06006C.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... since we didn't

20     verify this -- the transcripts for this video, we should play it twice.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. S. LUKIC:  And the second time.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] It's been 12 days since the Muslim

25     offensive and the general emergency signal is continuously on.  Everyday

Page 38470

 1     the enemy fires several missiles indiscriminately on this urban part of

 2     Srpsko Sarajevo and covers with machine-gun and sniper fire all the

 3     streets, intersections and alleys within sight.

 4             "Bogoljub Usorac:  Snipers are the most dangerous, especially

 5     those from the faculty over there.  You cannot pass there.  They are

 6     constantly firing.

 7             "Dragan Konic:  We can't move one bit because of the snipers.

 8     Shells are fired from all sides.  Two days ago, a woman got killed here.

 9     A child was wounded there.  There, on that balcony, a child was wounded.

10     Also a woman was wounded there.  That woman was seriously wounded and she

11     succumbed to the injury.  Another man who was standing there when that

12     shell exploded.  He was wounded there.  You know, it was horrible.

13     Terrible what they do.  They don't choose."

14             MR. S. LUKIC:  We saw the last interlocutor.  We see what he said

15     about how Grbavica was fired at.  From the place where the other

16     interlocutor was standing in this interview, how far away are enemy front

17     lines from that particular place, the closest ones.

18        A.   200 to 300 metres roughly, not more than 300 metres.

19        Q.   Which buildings are the most dominant in that part of enemy

20     territory facing Grbavica?

21        A.   On the side where the Muslim forces were, it was the faculty of

22     mechanical engineering that was dominant and the Bristol hotel and the

23     building of the joint organs of the current Bosnia-Herzegovina or,

24     rather, the Executive Council of the then-Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25        Q.   To the best of your knowledge and recollection, what was being

Page 38471

 1     used to fire at the population of Grbavica?

 2        A.   According to the investigation that was carried out by the

 3     Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska or, rather, the team that I

 4     headed, in that period of time during 1992 up until the end of 1993, in

 5     the area of Grbavica about 700 civilians were killed.  They were either

 6     killed from fire-arms - that is to say, infantry weapons - or they were

 7     victims of shelling.

 8        Q.   Do you know from which buildings they attacked in this way that

 9     you described to us?

10        A.   Where it was possible to carry out an on-site investigation, a

11     particular process was carried out.  That is to say, establishing the

12     place from which the firing had come.  As I already mentioned these

13     facilities were the places from which Grbavica was being fired at most of

14     the time.  I'm speaking about infantry weapons.  And also Golubovo Brdo

15     was fired from as well.  It was on the slopes of Mount Trebevic and

16     Grbavica could be seen without any obstacles.  And also firing came from

17     the so-called Sanac, which is on the slopes of Mojmilo hill from where

18     Grbavica could also be seen clearly without a single obstacle in sight.

19     These are the locations from which most of the firing against Grbavica

20     took place.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

23     move a bit away from the microphone.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you move a tiny little bit away from the

25     microphone.

Page 38472

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've already said, this is the

 2     urban part of the city of Sarajevo and it is mostly civilians that live

 3     there.  The lines were in front and behind there were civilians who lived

 4     there, and they were a target of attacks very often.  Because when the

 5     distances are so small, speaking of infantry fire, the marksmen could

 6     very clearly make a distinction between civilians and members of the

 7     Army of Republika Srpska.  When I talked to you about these casualties

 8     over 700, in that period when, in Grbavica up until the end of 1993,

 9     1.600 people were killed.  But this number in terms of the difference in

10     respect of fatalities that is, these are members of the Army of

11     Republika Srpska so we didn't take that into account when we were trying

12     to calculate the number of civilian casualties.

13        Q.   You said that from that distance a clear distinction could be

14     made between civilians and soldiers.  Apart from civilians and soldiers,

15     who else were the victims of such attacks?

16        A.   Well, very often children were the victims of these attacks.  We

17     have many such examples of on-site investigations, video footage,

18     photographs where killed children can be seen.  Children who were 10, 12,

19     13, so visually and in terms of their height, one could ascertain that

20     they were children, so the people who were doing the shooting could see

21     that as well.

22             MR. S. LUKIC:  I would like call 65 ter 1D06007a.  Since we

23     didn't verify the transcripts for this video with CLSS, we need to play

24     this video twice.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Edgerton, one question:  We heard now

Page 38473

 1     evidence that civilians on the Serbian side fell victim to sniping and

 2     also to shelling.  Is that in dispute that such victims fell?

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh we've -- no, Your Honour.  Of

 4     course, [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Why are we hearing evidence on matters which are not

 6     in dispute, Mr. Lukic.  I waited for a while, listened, and I never

 7     gained the idea that the Prosecution says there is no sniping and no

 8     shelling in Sarajevo and that, of course, victim, civilian victims fell

 9     on the other side as well.  Why do we have to hear it?

10             MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Our intention is to prove that

11     enemy soldiers from the territory controlled by the BH army were firing

12     from civilian buildings that did not have a military purpose but they

13     turned it into facilities with a military purpose and from there, they

14     were firing at civilian areas of Sarajevo that were under the control of

15     the Army of Republika Srpska.

16             Of course, they had to be neutralised by the army in order to

17     protect the population.  We are trying that show that actually these

18     buildings were a legitimate military objective.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether they will be, yes or no, is another matter.

20     But then please focus on that.  Please, then, focus in detail on where

21     this sniping incident, from where it was shot, et cetera, rather than

22     showing running children, which, of course, if you snipe at civilians,

23     people will start running.  That's -- but let's then focus on what you

24     want to establish and then we'll further see.

25             Please proceed.

Page 38474

 1             MR. S. LUKIC:  We can play the video now.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. S. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, we have a wrong video.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think that you asked for 1D6007a.

 5             MR. S. LUKIC:  That's correct.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The video which is now showed is 1D6006a.  So,

 7     therefore, I don't know who put it on our screens, but perhaps look at

 8     the one you intend to show.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. S. LUKIC:  And we can play it a second time.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't think that you need the beginning of

12     because there was no sound.

13             MR. S. LUKIC:  Yes, you're right.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

16             "Doctor:  Today about 1615 hours a greatly injured patient named

17     Natasa Ucur born in 1985 was brought to the Kasindol hospital.  She was

18     injured in Grbavica.  During the admission at the surgery ward of the

19     Kasindol hospital we found serious head injuries.  The bone structure of

20     the head and brain tissue were damaged.  The injuries were lethal and the

21     girl passed away within several minutes.  Immediately after this, some

22     five to six minutes later, another ambulance brought in Milica Lalovic

23     born in 1984 who was killed in Grbavica also by a sniper bullet.  It

24     wasn't possible to help her, the girl was already dead.  Innocent

25     children were being killed."

Page 38475

 1             MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, could you tell us who carried out the on-site

 3     investigation?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you wait until the translation has been

 5     finished.  It has been by now.

 6             MR. S. LUKIC:  I'm sorry.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 8             MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Let me repeat:  Who carried out the on-site investigations at the

10     place where these two little girls were lethally wounded?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the answer.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreters have not caught your answer.  Could

13     you repeat the answer.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The on-site investigation was

15     carried out by members of the crime prevention police of the public

16     security station of Sprsko Novo Sarajevo.

17             MR. S. LUKIC:

18        Q.   What did you establish on that occasion?

19        A.   Death was established for these two little girls.  Also the place

20     from which the sniper bullet had come, the one that killed these two

21     girls, so it was clear that it had come from the positions where members

22     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were.  The distance from these

23     positions to this place is also about 200 metres which means that with

24     the naked eye the person who was firing could see that these were

25     children.  These two little girls were playing in front of their home,

Page 38476

 1     and they were hit by fire from the other side.  The fire came from a

 2     fire-arm.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, now all what we have seen and all

 4     questions you asked were not focussed on what you say you want to

 5     establish.  It was mainly focussed on something which was not dispute.

 6     That people were shot at from the ABiH side, that victims were killed.

 7     That's all not in dispute.  You said it's the buildings which we had to

 8     attack.  I've not heard a word about from what buildings.  I've not -- do

 9     not know what the date of the incident was.  I have not yet, which, of

10     course --

11             MR. S. LUKIC:  That's my next question.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you also have the report of the on-site

13     investigation?  That would certainly greatly assist.  Then you suddenly

14     get condensed a lot of information including source of fire, perhaps.

15     Instead of hearing after more than 20 years from a witness that the fire

16     came from the other side 200 metres away, which really does not assist us

17     greatly.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. S. LUKIC:  Thank you.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] You said that you established where the firing

21     had come from.  Can you tell us from where?

22        A.   The Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska established that

23     fire came from the direction of the faculty of mechanical engineering.

24     About ten years earlier on, we sent an official report to the

25     Prosecutor's office of Bosnia-Herzegovina, team of the Ministry of

Page 38477

 1     Interior of Republika Srpska headed by myself investigated the case once

 2     again, and we submitted a report not only for this incident but also for

 3     many, many other incidents, sniping, shelling.  And this report was filed

 4     in terms of direct responsibility of the perpetrators and command

 5     responsibility as well.  The commander of the 1st Corps of the Army of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina is responsible, and other persons were responsible.

 7     And by filing this report, we clearly indicated all the positions from

 8     which the victims had been hit and it is precisely all of these positions

 9     that --

10             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... witness, you

11     apparently are more or less responding to some questions I put to the

12     Defence.  You're not answering the question at this moment.  If there's

13     any material, we expect the Defence to present that if they want to have

14     this line of questions put.  You don't have to elaborate on all that.

15     Mr. Lukic will take care of it.  The only thing is usually if incidents

16     are considered to be relevant and important that this Chamber often is

17     provided with the reports of the on-site investigations which we have not

18     seen for the one which is now apparently the subject of examination.

19             Mr. Lukic, would you please keep control over your witness.

20     That's one.

21             And, second, when I earlier said four minutes, it may have been

22     six, but you went far beyond that so try to come with concrete materials

23     on matters which are in dispute.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. S. LUKIC:  Yes, thank you.

Page 38478

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you tell us briefly do you remember the

 2     year when this occurred?

 3        A.   I think that this occurred in 1995.  I think it was the month of

 4     March 1995.

 5        Q.   Do you know what the reaction of the Army of Republika Srpska was

 6     to this incident?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I mean, absolutely, this was not within my domain

 8     to think about that at that moment, what the reaction of the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska would be.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to move onto a different topic now.

11             Can you tell us what your occupation is today?

12        A.   Already ten years within the Ministry of Interior of

13     Republika Srpska, I investigate war crimes.

14        Q.   Whose crimes?

15        A.   Within the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska, I'm in

16     charge of investigations of war crimes against Serbian people.  That's

17     one of my priority tasks.

18        Q.   What did you investigate?  Which location.

19        A.   The investigations carried out by the team of the Ministry of

20     Interior that I head were into the killings of Serbs in the city of

21     Sarajevo, in Srebrenica, crimes perpetrated by the Mujahed and by the

22     5th Corps, the Dretelj camp, Konjic.  Those were the major cases.

23        Q.   Thank you.  We will dwell a little on Sarajevo.

24             Can you tell us how many camps there were in Sarajevo?

25        A.   According to the research that we carried out, there were 126

Page 38479

 1     camps or places where civilians were held unlawfully in Sarajevo.  Which

 2     means that there was absolutely no basis for their detention.

 3             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Ms. Edgerton.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Had I been notified that this witness would give

 5     any evidence relating to detention facilities or camps, I would have

 6     prepared accordingly.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             65 ter summary, Mr. Lukic, could you tell us exactly where you

 9     indicated that camps would be part of your -- and I don't have it here

10     with me but ...

11             MS. EDGERTON:  And I can even assist because I do have it but

12     because I have a marked up copy, I'll just indicate what there is

13     relating to camps in the 65 ter summary.  It says:  "The witness also has

14     information about the setting up of prisoner camps for Serbs in Sarajevo

15     such as Viktor Bubanj barracks and the cental prison."  That's two,

16     Your Honours, a far cry from 126.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that in itself to say that the witness had

18     knowledge about more camps and even a number that's not in itself

19     necessarily outside the scope of the 65 ter, but would you please then

20     focus on what you announced would be the subject of examination in terms

21     of camps, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23        Q.   Can you tell us who gave you orders to investigate war crimes

24     against Serbs in Sarajevo?

25        A.   At the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska, the minister and

Page 38480

 1     the director of police ordered the establishment of a team to investigate

 2     war crimes, and when that team was established, we established

 3     co-operation with the prosecutor's office of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

 4     district prosecutor's offices, and we investigated cases according to

 5     instructions we received from prosecutor's offices, and we also carried

 6     out pre-investigation inquiries into all the incidents that we learned

 7     about.

 8        Q.   What was the final result of your investigation?

 9        A.   First of all, we submitted to the prosecutor's office of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina and prosecutor's offices of the district over 50 --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure about the number.

12     Could the witness please repeat.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you repeat the number.  You said you

14     submitted to the prosecutor's office of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

15     prosecutor's offices of the district over ... how many reports or cases

16     or files?  How many?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the city of Sarajevo, over 280

18     official reports or criminal complaints.  I'm talking only about

19     Sarajevo.  Only the crimes perpetrated in Sarajevo.

20             In these reports, we established that there were 3.300 victims,

21     civilian victims, on the territory of ten Sarajevo municipalities.  Urban

22     municipalities.

23             MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to call document

24     1D5095.

25             [In English] My fault.  This is the 1D05495.  That's the

Page 38481

 1     correct -- that is the correct 65 ter number.  Sorry, page 3 on B/C/S and

 2     English ...

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, can you tell us what kind of list

 4     is this.

 5        A.   This is a list that was made based on case files of Serbs killed

 6     in Sarajevo and they are in the archive of the MUP in Sarajevo.  The MUP

 7     of Republika Srpska.  This contains the names and years of birth of Serbs

 8     killed in Sarajevo --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Often for the Prosecution, it's considered

10     better not to broadcast names in such documents and public documents.  I

11     haven't heard anything about it, so we let you go.  But if you would have

12     similar concerns, then, of course, you could ask for it to be -- not to

13     be broadcast, and if you are seeking admission later to have it under

14     seal.

15             I leave it in your hands.  Please proceed.

16             MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We don't have a

17     problem with this document being released.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. S. LUKIC:  Thank you.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] What did you use as a source of information for

21     this list?

22        A.   With the leave of the Court, I would like to explain how we came

23     to establish case files, not this list.

24        Q.   You may go on.

25        A.   When the commission was established by the international

Page 38482

 1     community, and it was established by the council of ministers of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the parliamentary Assembly.  That commission was

 3     supposed to investigate the killing of Serb, Croats, Bosniaks and Jews

 4     and others on the territory of ten Sarajevo municipalities.  Then a MUP

 5     team of Republika Srpska joined this commission.  We worked following a

 6     principle that for every person killed, an individual case file would be

 7     opened, and in addition to the name, date of birth, and father's name, it

 8     was required to accompany every name with a JM -- with a unique

 9     identification number which existed for every citizen of Yugoslavia.

10     Also the birth certificate, the death certificate, and then in every case

11     file, we included copies of all the relevant evidence and indicators that

12     the given person was killed and in which way.

13             So that means the on-site investigation, if any, the photo

14     documentation, video footage, if any, statements of surviving witnesses,

15     statements from family, and all the other evidence that indicated that a

16     crime was perpetrated and also the official report describing the given

17     incident that had been submitted to the prosecutor's office.  All this

18     was done not only in writing but also in electronic form.  Experts of the

19     Ministry of Interior developed software, so when you type in the name and

20     surname of the victim, you would get the registration number for that

21     victim and if you only have a new report and you don't have that name in

22     the register, then the programme automatically assigned a number to the

23     case.  All these case files are still with us.  We still have them.  And

24     the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal has reviewed them.  And

25     when we showed them how we did this work in Sarajevo, they congratulated

Page 38483

 1     us, and we still believe today that it was the only way to establish the

 2     actual number of civilian victims, not only in the territory of the ten

 3     Sarajevo municipalities, but also in all of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Because,

 4     in this way, every possibility for manipulation is eliminated.  Every

 5     citizen had their unique identification number and birth certificate and

 6     their families had received death certificates in order to exercise their

 7     rights and receive benefits.

 8        Q.   When you say "all civilians," which civilians do you mean?

 9        A.   When I say "all civilian," I mean civilians of all ethnicities

10     who were killed in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Bosniaks, Serbs, Croats, Jews,

11     all the other citizens.

12        Q.   What did you use as a source of information about missing persons

13     in this list?

14        A.   Speaking of missing persons, we used, first of all, reports to

15     the ICRC and international organisations dealing with missing persons,

16     reports from families looking for their near and dear.  We used, as I

17     said, all court material that was available, all court papers that were

18     written during the investigation, photo documentation, video footage,

19     records of exhumations, crime-scene reports, all the indicators that a

20     given person is, indeed -- was, indeed, a victim of the war, a civilian

21     victim.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's all -- if I understand you well, this

23     list is exclusively about civilians.  Is that well understood?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the list contains the names of

25     civilians only.  We did not investigate cases of deaths of combatants of

Page 38484

 1     Republika Srpska.  We only dealt with civilian victims.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  What I have difficulties to understand is that this

 3     list as is shown to us, a lot of information which you would expect to be

 4     available is just not on that list, such as, sometimes, even the year of

 5     birth for many, many victims are not available.  And do you have any

 6     explanation as to the -- how this information which must be available,

 7     why it's not on that list?  For example, we could look at -- just for an

 8     example, could we look at the last page.  That's page 214 of this list.

 9             Could we have a look at the last page.  Could it be enlarged

10     slightly.  For both version, the last page.

11             And perhaps for the B/C/S, the semi-last page.  One page back.

12             For example, if we look at entry 3022 -- could we enlarge.

13     There, we see the name of that person, his father's name, his first name.

14     Year of birth is not there.  Although it's known that it was a doctor,

15     that he was killed by a sniper on the 17th of June, and then all kind of

16     details about that.  Why do we not know in what year that doctor was

17     born?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This list is not final.  These case

19     files are not final.  They have not been finalized.  All this information

20     was taken from the archives that were accessible to us when we created

21     these case files.

22             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If -- if you -- excuse me.

24     Identification numbers and the files containing ID papers where they ae

25     contained were in the territory controlled by the Army of

Page 38485

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  These persons, because they had been killed, were

 2     not included in the joint common programme which allows us today to get

 3     the name of a particular person with one click.  That was a problem.  And

 4     it's obvious that we still continue working to complete these files and

 5     to collect other evidence and relevant indicators pertaining to these

 6     persons.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But only on this page for nine persons even the year

 8     of birth is not known and if you say it doesn't automatically come in

 9     well, if you say it's after close to 20 years that this is the level

10     which we reached, then we can continue.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic, and I'm saying "please proceed," you

12     know you're now approximately one hour over your time and some of your

13     evidence was not about matters in dispute.

14             MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since you've already put my last

15     question, and since the witness provided an explanation in terms of that,

16     I have no questions left for this witness for the time being.

17        Q.   And I would just like to thank Mr. Tusevljak.

18             MR. S. LUKIC:  As for these three exhibits, the video material

19     1D6006c and 1D6007a, and 1D045 [sic], I would like to tender that into

20     evidence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar could you assign numbers.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document number 1D06006c receives exhibit number

23     D1214.

24             65 ter number 1D6007A receives exhibit number D1215.

25             Document number 1D05495 receives exhibit number D1216,

Page 38486

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  All three admitted into evidence

 3     under the numbers mentioned.

 4             Ms. Edgerton, are you ready to start your cross-examination.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Absolutely.  I'm just looking at the time.  I will

 6     have about seven minutes before the first break, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you would prefer to, for the flow of your

 8     questions, to take the break now, then we'd consider that.  But you could

 9     start.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll just begin, if I may and --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tusevljak, you'll now be cross-examined by

12     Ms. Edgerton.  You find her to your right and Ms. Edgerton is counsel for

13     the Prosecution.

14             Please proceed.

15                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

16             MS. EDGERTON:

17        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Tusevljak.  You can understand everything I

18     say, can you?

19             Can you understand me in your own language, Mr. Tusevljak?

20        A.   In my language, yes, I'm receiving interpretation.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I just want to stay with this list for a while, with

22     your list, and ask you some questions on it.

23             Now, you've indicated in your testimony a few moments ago that

24     this list relates to a project to establish the victims of the war, and

25     you referred to civilians of all ethnicities who were killed in Bosnia

Page 38487

 1     and Herzegovina, Bosniak, Serbs, Croats, Jews, all the victims of war.

 2             Now I've had a look at this list and all the names on the list,

 3     and but for two Ukrainians, I've only seen Serb names on this list.  This

 4     is a list of people who have a Serb surname; right?

 5        A.   Because my task was to establish precisely the victimisation of

 6     Serbs.  Others had other tasks.  Within that commission, my task was to

 7     see how many Serbs fell victim.  That was my task.  My task was not to

 8     establish something else.  It's a question of an assignment, a task,

 9     nothing else.

10        Q.   Does that mean that your answer is yes?

11        A.   Yes, my task was to investigate cases when Serbs fell victim.

12     It's 2007, 2008 --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all unnecessary

14     microphones please be switched off.  Thank you.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             MS. EDGERTON:

18        Q.   Now, you've also testified this morning that this list was based

19     on case files of Serbs killed in Sarajevo.

20             Now, there's a large number of people on this list who were

21     victimised in locations outside Sarajevo; correct?

22        A.   No, there's not a single victim there that fell victim outside

23     the territory of the ten municipalities of Sarajevo.

24        Q.   All right.  Let's have a look at this list as we can and go to

25     number 92.  And I'm sorry, I don't have the page numbers immediately for

Page 38488

 1     these entries.

 2             So just look at number -- entry number 91 and 92 and for that

 3     matter, have a look at number 94 --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  They're on e-court page 10, Your Honour --

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  In English.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:

 8        Q.   There are three names of victims who were victimised in Kladanj.

 9     Kladanj isn't in Sarajevo, is it?

10        A.   First of all, these are probably persons --

11        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

12        A.   Please --

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... my question.  Kladanj isn't

14     in Sarajevo, is it?

15        A.   Kladanj is not in Sarajevo.

16        Q.   All right.  Now, you have, in addition to this, at numbers 229,

17     707, 842, and 1462 entries related to victims in Olovo.  Olovo isn't in

18     Sarajevo either, is it?

19        A.   I don't see that here.  What's the number that you said?  I

20     haven't got it here on my monitor.

21        Q.   My question is:  Olovo isn't in Sarajevo, is it?

22        A.   Olovo is not in Sarajevo.

23        Q.   The list contains nine entries for people who were victimised in

24     Konjic.  11 entries for people who were victimised in Kijevo.  One from

25     Rogatica.  One from Sjemec and ten entries for people who were victimised

Page 38489

 1     in Kiseljak.  None of those places are anywhere in any one of the ten

 2     pre-war Sarajevo municipalities, are they?

 3        A.   Kijevo is within the area of the municipality of Trnovo.

 4     Kiseljak is a border area.

 5             Well, we published this list, we made it public.  It's on the

 6     Internet.  At the very end of this list, we said that this is a

 7     preliminary list, that it is not final, that all citizens who see any

 8     omission - and this was a huge undertaking - they can intervene.  Sorry,

 9     I --

10             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I stop you

11     there.  That's not the issue.  The issue is not whether matters should be

12     corrected.  The issue is that you say that these are -- is a list of

13     those who fell victim in the ten municipalities of Sarajevo.

14     Ms. Edgerton is telling that you on this list, that there is a

15     considerable number of people who were reported not to have died.

16             So whether there are any mistakes and whether these civilians

17     could comment, that's another matter, but ...

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not a huge number of

20     mistakes, that's for sure.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No, no --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry -- please.  There's 3.300

23     names of victims here, not these 30 or 40.  Well, I don't have all the

24     files here because in the file that exists for each and every one of

25     these victims, you would be able to see other evidence that indicates why

Page 38490

 1     they are here.  I cannot see it on the basis of this list, but I can see

 2     it in the file.  Somebody just compiled this list on the basis of files.

 3     It's not I or a member of my team that did this.  Somebody else leafed

 4     through this and made this table.  We did not work on that.  We worked on

 5     the files, on the basis of which this table was made.  So all of these

 6     questions that the Prosecutor has put can be determined only if we go to

 7     the actual files of the victims.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that apparently the information as we

 9     have it in the list is not reliable for making any findings, because the

10     explanation why it is different from what it looks like on this list is

11     not to be found in this list itself.

12             I leave it that to that for the time being and we take a break.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  If I may, Your Honour, just before the break and

14     before we break, and it's my mistake, it was also reminded to me by

15     Mr. Tieger, I had actually intended, Your Honour, and I wasn't fast

16     enough on the uptake and listening to my memories, I had intended to ask

17     for this list we're discussing now to be marked for identification

18     pending cross-examination and I'd just like to put that on the record now

19     and ask Your Honours if we may reconsider, and it's 1D1216.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And you wanted to have it marked for identification

21     pending cross-examination.  Well, -- we have admitted it already so you

22     could ask to reconsider that decision and perhaps do it after the

23     cross-examination or after this part.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, although I did use the word "reconsider," I

25     would like Your Honours to reconsider the admission of that document.

Page 38491

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now or after --

 2             MS. EDGERTON: [Overlapping speakers] ... after the end of the

 3     cross-examination, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  After the end of the cross-examination.  We will do

 5     that.  It certainly be helpful if you remind us to do it.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  And, of course, my apologies for not noticing the

 7     numbers as I was going along.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, apologies accepted.  We will take a break and

 9     we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

10             Mr. Tusevljak, you may now follow the usher.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into

16     the courtroom.

17             Meanwhile, I briefly deal with one procedural matter, which is

18     about D745.

19             On the 26th of August of this year, the Prosecution stated in

20     court that it does not oppose the admission of D745.  Since an earlier

21     objection of the Prosecution was the reason that D745 was marked for

22     identification, the Chamber now admits D745 into evidence.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

Page 38492

 1        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, I'd like to stay with this list for a while,

 2     actually.

 3             But --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is D1216.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  D1216, thank you.

 6        Q.   Now -- 1216.  I mispronounced.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If we're talking about mispronunciation I misspoke

 8     about Beara before the break when I refer to the list that people had not

 9     died where I should have added in Sarajevo.  That was a mistake and it

10     could create some confusion that's the reason why I'm trying to correct

11     it now immediately on the record.

12             Please proceed, and, again, apologies for interrupting you.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Not at all.  Thank you.

14        Q.   This list that's the same list you spoke about when you testified

15     here in the Dragomir Milosevic and the Stanisic and Zupljanin

16     prosecutions, isn't it?

17        A.   It's just parts of the list because probably this list has been

18     extended, I think.  Because investigations are ongoing.  I've already

19     told you that it's not final.  It's a preliminary list.  It is being

20     supplemented to this day.

21        Q.   Right.  Now, then, let's see if we can have a look at 65 ter

22     number 32976.

23             Now I'm just going to show you the first page for a second.  This

24     is the cover page of a book provided by a Defence witness for

25     Dr. Karadzic, and his name as you can see was Dusan Zurovac.  And this

Page 38493

 1     book was prepared or published in 2006.  And if you look at the bottom of

 2     the cover page, it even says:  "Prepared by Dusan Zurovac."

 3             Now if we --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're on your feet.

 5             MR. S. LUKIC:  Yes.  I object.  Because Mr. Tusevljak testified

 6     about a list of missing and killed persons that were the result of a MUP

 7     investigation and here we have a private individual who wrote a book

 8     and --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we do not know yet what the question is.  So

10     let's wait for that.  And as soon as you stand, Mr. Lukic, I usually

11     understand that as a request to interfere, and perhaps you were a bit too

12     early on your feet.

13             Please proceed.

14             MS. EDGERTON:

15        Q.   Now I'm going to have us turn to Sanction actually because,

16     Mr. Tusevljak, I'd like to have us look at the first page of your list

17     side by side with the first page of this book.

18             And Ms. Stewart has that available for us.  If you'd just give us

19     a couple of minutes.

20             So what you should see beside you is the first page of your -- or

21     page -- this is -- have a look at entry number 3, actually, in your list,

22     which is on the left-hand side, beside and it's an entry for somebody by

23     the name of Risto Avram and then go over and look at the same entry for

24     Risto Avram with the same date of birth, same father's name and same

25     event details.  That's at page 2 in Mr. Zurovac's book.  The two entries

Page 38494

 1     are word for word identical, aren't they?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton, shall we be able to see the lists

 3     in English at some stage.  They're both in B/C/S.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, I was doing that for the witness's ease and

 5     I'm wondering if I could invite Your Honours to look at the English

 6     version of D1216 on your own e-court so that you're able to follow along.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The important thing is to compare the two lists so

 8     that's why I'm asking at some stage you'll give the same lists both on

 9     the same page but in English for us to see.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And what is in Sanction, of course, we could not get

11     on our on screens.  So, therefore, if you say compare the English then at

12     least for what is presented in Sanction we are unable to do that.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  If I could make my point with the witness and then

14     we will go to the English pages in e-court.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MS. EDGERTON:

17        Q.   Now, you see those two entries are word for word identical;

18     right?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Now again, we are looking at the list presented by

20     the witness entry number 3 and on the right side of the screen, it is --

21     it.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Entry number 6 [Overlapping speakers] ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

24             MS. EDGERTON:  It's actually the entry at the top of the page.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then there it appears that's for let me

Page 38495

 1     see, 3 seems to be -- yes.  3 corresponds with Avram and I see Risto and

 2     I see 1952, and I see a rather long description in which at least the

 3     date, 25th of 6th of 1992, appears in both the lists.  Is that what you

 4     are --

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, we are with you.  Please proceed.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:

 8        Q.   They're identical, aren't they?

 9        A.   Yes, except for this at the end where we say that he was exhumed

10     according to the information of the central records for searching for

11     missing persons.  I've already said to you when I was answering the

12     questions put by the Defence that the first preliminary list of 2.500

13     names --

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

15        A.   I would like to answer.  I would like to clarify something if I

16     can.

17             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... it is

18     Ms. Edgerton who puts the questions to you and if she thinks you're

19     moving away too much from her question then whatever you wish to explain,

20     if it's relevant you'll given an opportunity to later in re-examination.

21     But if she interrupts you in fairness, of course, then you'd have to

22     follow her.  And I'm a bit lost where the exhumation is mentioned in the

23     last lines because at least what I see is that there is some similarity

24     there as well, the word exhumation at the semi-last line, a date is

25     there.

Page 38496

 1             But I leave it your hands, Ms. Edgerton.

 2             MR. S. LUKIC:  Maybe I can help?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's see how far Ms. Edgerton comes and then

 4     your help is appreciated, I take it, later.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:

 6        Q.   So I just want to say with these two pages and what we'll be able

 7     to since we're staying with the two pages is go over to the English

 8     language page for Their Honours.  Have a look at your list at entries

 9     number 4, 5, 6, even number 9, and they're almost identical with the

10     entries in the book by Dusan Zurovac, aren't they?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could now go over to the English version of

13     D1216, just the first page, so Their Honours so see the entries we've

14     been referring to.  D1216.  Page 3 it is of D1216 actually.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's still the B/C/S.  Yes, now we need English

16     for both lists:  The book and the exhibit.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, because of time constraints we don't

18     have an English translation of the first page of that book.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  But the page where we see the entries which

21     you wanted to compare.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  We can give you the B/C/S -- the B/C/S entries.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no English translation for the book.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  No.  Our translators have been working at great

25     speed, Your Honours.

Page 38497

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But then, of course, being unable to compare

 2     the entry as if it is about exhumations and the differences where we

 3     cannot verify it ourselves, Mr. Lukic, if your offer to assist still

 4     stands, I would appreciate.

 5             MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to assist regarding

 6     the difference in explanation in the previous document shown from

 7     Mr. Zurovac's book.  I doubt that I can assist with this in any way.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Because I think that the witness said

 9     something about that information was added in your list and we see there

10     the last portion of the text being exhumed at the Aerodromsko Naselje

11     settlement and identified on the 10th of -- it looks January, I think,

12     2000, data of the office for tracing missing persons.

13             What's the difference between the two --

14             MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.  The difference is

15     that in the list, D1216, it reads in the last sentence:  "Information of

16     the information for searches for the missing persons," and in Zurovac's

17     book it says he was exhumed in the Aerodrom neighbourhood.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Which appears that the fact of the exhumation in

20     the Aerodrom neighbourhood is in all [Overlapping speakers] ...

21             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... it's in both.

22             MS. EDGERTON:

23        Q.   But now you having seen, Mr. Tusevljak, that the entries on the

24     first page are almost identical I want to tell that you we've actually

25     gone through the book we've had a speaker of your language go through

Page 38498

 1     that book and see that most of the entries are identical.  So I'd like to

 2     ask you what you spoke to -- in relation to what you spoke to in your

 3     testimony in-chief here, whose list is it?  Is it your list or is it

 4     Mr. Zurovac's list which was published in 2005?

 5        A.   I'm talking about the list of the Ministry of Interior of

 6     Republika Srpska, not the list of Mr. Zurovac.  This last word,

 7     "information from the office for searches for the missing" means that the

 8     MUP of Republika Srpska, concerning the killing of Avram Nedjo Risto,

 9     received information from the office for searches for the missing of

10     Republika Srpska and it's obvious that the same information was received

11     by Mr. Zurovac from the same office.  That's why I said it was important

12     to stress that this is information obtained from the office for searches

13     for the missing that Mr. Zurovac obtained too.  And it's probable that

14     the information we got from that office - and obviously Mr. Zurovac got

15     it as well - may coincide because the same information was received by

16     the MUP and Mr. Zurovac when he was collecting material for this book.

17        Q.   Thank you.  [Overlapping speakers] ...

18             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... Can I just ask a

19     question for clarification.  I thought you said earlier that this list

20     that you were talking about from your office was compiled based on the

21     information from the investigation files, not from the office of tracing

22     missing persons.

23             Am I -- did I misunderstand you?  You actually said you didn't

24     compile this but you -- but the people who compiled the list did so

25     getting their information from the files, individual files for

Page 38499

 1     investigation.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should clarify.  Information

 3     concerning persons who were victimised was obtained from police sources,

 4     from military sources, from the centre for investigating war crimes in

 5     Belgrade, the office for tracing missing persons, the records of the

 6     ICRC.  All these archives were reviewed by us and everything pertaining

 7     to certain persons was included in the case files for these people.  This

 8     list is just an excerpt from these case files.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... thank you for

10     the explanation.  Thank you so much.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   Sir, did you check this list?  Have you had a look at it?

13        A.   You mean this one here?  I did not check it, but it was made by

14     operative officers of the MUP of Republika Srpska who used archives and

15     case filings that are in my office to create this list.  So each person

16     included in this list should have a case file in the archives.

17        Q.   And what happens when you have an entry that appears to be a

18     duplicate?

19        A.   I've said that we have software in our computer set up in such a

20     way that when we have the same name and surname and even the same

21     father's name, the case file is pulled up and if we find out that it's

22     the same person we put additional documentation in that case file and if

23     we establish that it's a different person we open a new case file.

24        Q.   All right.  So let's go back to D1216 and go over to a couple of

25     entries that I have some questions about then.  I've -- first of all,

Page 38500

 1     want to go to number 2749 on the list.  It's at B/C/S page 224 and

 2     English page 199.

 3             And you see the name I'm interested in at the top of the page in

 4     your language, 2749, that's Olga Cokic.

 5             Now, Mr. Tusevljak, if you go over to entry number 2832, it's on

 6     B/C/S page 230 and English page 204.  And, for the record, she's at the

 7     bottom in English, page 199.  So we're going to entry 2832.  You see that

 8     the very same -- a woman by the very same name with the identical

 9     father's name and the identical year of birth is listed.  And frankly,

10     they have the descriptions of the way in which they went missing is very,

11     very similar.  The woman at entry number 2749 went missing in Sarajevo on

12     18 May 1992 and the same woman in entry 2832 was killed by a sniper on 18

13     May 1992.  That's a potential duplicate, isn't it?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you answer the question, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just want to object because it

16     was said incorrectly that these were identical persons.  There is a

17     difference in surname.  The person --

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel has said these numbers too fast.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, if you want to object on that basis you should

21     do it in such a way that it doesn't give guidance to the witness, such as

22     misrepresents the evidence or misrepresented or could I invite to read

23     exactly the names on both lists and otherwise you have an opportunity to

24     address the matter in re-examination.  But the way in which do it,

25     Mr. Lukic, is not the way it should be done.

Page 38501

 1             At the same time, Ms. Edgerton has now heard what you said and

 2     certainly will think about it and when continuing her cross-examination.

 3             Ms. Edgerton.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   I'll go onto another entry.  Perhaps we can could go over to

 6     English and B/C/S page 76.

 7             Have a look at entries number 897 and 903, Mr. Tusevljak.  They

 8     both relate to a woman by the name of Sofia Eric and while number 897 has

 9     actually no year of birth or father's name, they both relate to women who

10     were exhumed from the Lav cemetery on 27 August 2000.  That's another

11     potential duplicate, isn't it?

12        A.   Without looking into the case files, I cannot know whether it's a

13     duplicate or not.  The only criterion is the case file and the

14     information contained therein.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the reason why Ms. Edgerton phrased her

16     question about a potential duplicate.  The question is whether you see

17     anything here which would make you conclude that there's no need to go

18     back to the original files and that, on the basis of what is found on

19     this list, you could already exclude a duplicate, because if not it is a

20     potential duplicate.

21             Any comment?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this 897, we don't have the

23     father' name.  We have the father's name for 903.  But some things

24     coincide.  We don't have the date of disappearance up there.  It means

25     it's 1993.  And since this is documentation we received from the office

Page 38502

 1     for tracing missing persons, it's probable that this office has records

 2     for two persons.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was not the issue.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:

 6        Q.   We're just going to one more, both on the same page in English

 7     and B/C/S, page 99, and it's entries 1199 and 1200.

 8             Now, they both relate to a man by the name of Zdravko Karakas who

 9     was born in 1952.  Same date of birth.  Do you see -- and same father's

10     name.  Do you see a potential duplicate in that entry?

11        A.   Again, this concerns two different sources of information.  In

12     the first one, as you can see, the person went missing in Sarajevo in

13     1992; and in the second, it says he was killed by a shell on

14     22nd June 1992.

15             So, according to the information we received, or the

16     documentation that was available to us, we were not in a position at that

17     time to establish whether it is the same person or not because the

18     information on the manner of killing differs.  One is that he was taken

19     to Kasin and killed and the other was from Oslobodjenje, 18 January

20     1992, where it says that this person was killed by a shell.  That's the

21     difference and that's why these names which are the same are on the same

22     list.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If may just --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... you said it was reported

25     he was taken to, et cetera, that's -- were you reading from 1198 instead

Page 38503

 1     of from 1199?  Is that what you did?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, sorry, it's my mistake.  It

 3     says here he went missing in Sarajevo --

 4             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and the data was received from

 6     his aunt.

 7             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... just wanted to

 8     point that you were reading from the -- another record.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MS. EDGERTON:

11        Q.   So on the basis of an identical surname, an identical father's

12     name, and an identical date of birth, as well as an identical first name,

13     do you see a potential duplicate in that entry, yes or no?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Identical year of birth.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, to be precisely.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said this was a preliminary list

17     and until we check the case files to see what might indicate differently

18     we cannot know looking at this list.  In Bosnia-Herzegovina to this day,

19     when you type in the names and the father's name you often get hundreds

20     of names.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, earlier another list was presented

23     which was published in 2005 and Ms. Edgerton, although we had no

24     opportunity yet to verify that, said that the entries were -- most of the

25     cases exactly the same.

Page 38504

 1             Now if would that would be true for what is found in 2005, do I

 2     understand that finding duplicates since 2005, that is, over the last ten

 3     years has not reached a level where with such similar family name, first

 4     name, father's name, year of birth, approximate time when disappeared or

 5     killed that you had no opportunity yet to verify on the basis of the

 6     underlying documentation whether it is really a duplicate or whether it

 7     still is a potential duplicate only?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These could only be potential

 9     duplicates not real duplicates.  Investigation continues and things

10     change.  We had a lot more information in the early days that we found

11     out is incorrect after doing some work and we eliminated such persons.

12     We didn't include them.  We have a lot of dubious case files still where

13     we are unable to determine the validity of the evidence, and we didn't

14     include them at all --

15             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... one second.

16     This is all general considerations.  Are you able to tell us exactly what

17     was done with Mr. Karakas Dusan in 1199 and 1200.  Could you give us

18     details on verification which would either tell you that they were two

19     different persons or that it is, indeed, a duplicate?

20             If you know tell us; if you don't know, tell us as well.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this moment, I cannot know

22     because we have 3.300 names.  I cannot memorize each of then.

23             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... not blaming you

24     for it.  But I just want to know whether you can answer that question.

25             Ms. Edgerton.

Page 38505

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we please have a look at 65 ter number

 2     33024.

 3        Q.   And while we're waiting for that, I want to ask you:  Would you

 4     agree with me, Mr. Tusevljak, that duplicates, potential duplicates on

 5     any list, would tend to elevate the numbers of people listed?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 8        A.   Absolutely not.  We never had that intention.

 9        Q.   No, it's -- I'm not asking about your intention.  I'm asking if

10     for whatever reason there's two people, two names on the list which have

11     an identical surname, an identical first name, an identical father's name

12     and an identical year of birth when only one after --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. S. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I want to object because it's

15     impossible to establish the identicalness of one person only on the basis

16     of information or data cited by my colleague.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You're answering the question rather than to object

18     against the question.

19             Now, Ms. Edgerton, your question originally was that if you have

20     duplicates on a list that that tends to elevate the number of people

21     listed.  Of course, if a person, the same person appears twice then that

22     adds one to the list.  I mean, what's there for a witness to add anything

23     which not everyone would consider to be obvious.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  That's fine.  He did say no, though, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have heard his answer on a question which --

Page 38506

 1     yes.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Understood.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:

 5        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, the list you see in front of you --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  By the way in all fairness the witness said no on

 7     the basis of a wrong understanding of the question.  Because he said, No,

 8     we had no intention.  So apparently he understood your question wrongly,

 9     the question was not needed to be put at all and we'll now continue.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, thank you.

11        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, in front of you, you see a list that's drawn from

12     the names that appeared in the larger list we've been talking about.  And

13     we've been able to identify over 60 potential duplicate names.

14             So, Mr. Tusevljak, it looks like your offices haven't screened

15     the list for potential duplicates, doesn't it?

16        A.   The list was screened and filtered many times, and if you take

17     away even these -- this number of duplicates, still you remain with over

18     3.000 people killed.  There is a small percentage of errors that can

19     appear anywhere but it's negligible compared to the number of victims

20     shown in this list based on the existing case files.

21             Why do I want to tell that you it's not our intention to

22     manipulate?  This list was put up on the Internet and everyone can react.

23     That's one.

24             Second, it was made for the joint commission where the

25     representatives for Serbs on that commission were supposed to prove for

Page 38507

 1     each name of this list, that it was a civilian victim.  It had to be

 2     presented to the Bosniak and the Croat and every other side.  And that

 3     other side had the possibility to react, like you are reacting now, to

 4     anything wrong with any of the names, to prevent any manipulation.  So it

 5     was not our intention to maximise the number of victims but to get

 6     evidence that would enable us to establish the actual number of victims.

 7     This was not driven by politics.  This was a police investigation.  Of

 8     course, there is always the possibility of human error, but it's

 9     negligible.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're giving a long answer on an

11     allegation that was never made.  The simple question was that you haven't

12     screened it for duplicates.  That's the only simple factual question.

13     Did your office find time or have an opportunity to deal with those

14     potential duplicates or have they not?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No --

16             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- wherever we established there

18     was, indeed, a duplicate, we eliminated it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And have not, for those here listed here, 30

20     names which appear approximately the same twice, you did not have an

21     opportunity yet to verify?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask Ms. Edgerton, who prepared this list we

25     have on the screen in front of us?

Page 38508

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  This list was prepared internally within the ICTY.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means at the OTP.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is what I wanted to put on the record.

 5     Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And you also agree that what you consider to be

 7     potential duplicates at least there is some difference in spelling very

 8     often.  So therefore, what the potential of those potential duplicates is

 9     still to be seen because there are noticeable differences as well.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MS. EDGERTON:

13        Q.   Now today in your testimony, you also told His Honour --

14     Their Honours that the list, D1216 is a list of civilians only.  You

15     remember that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   But you know there are some soldiers on your list.

18        A.   There may be members of the Army of Republika Srpska but, at the

19     moment of death, they were not militarily engaged.  They were not on the

20     front line, they were away from the front line, they were wearing

21     civilian clothes, et cetera.  There is no one here who died on the front

22     line.

23        Q.   So -- actually, let's have a look at the list again.  Let's go

24     over to entry number 1563.  It's English and B/C/S page 129.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But we need the long list, isn't it, not the

Page 38509

 1     potential duplicates.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  D1216.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  I can ask the question without waiting for the

 5     document.

 6        Q.   You would also, since you were able to answer that question to a

 7     certain extent affirmatively, although with a comment about the status,

 8     at the moment these people were killed, you would also be able to confirm

 9     that your list includes members of the JNA; right?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. S. LUKIC:  There is no such information.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you are commenting on -- you are --

13     you're giving testimony.  You shouldn't do that.  I mean, if there's

14     anything to be dealt with, you do it later in re-examination.  And we do

15     not know yet the answer of the witness.

16             MR. S. LUKIC:  I'm sorry.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  So please be aware that this fully inappropriate.

18             Please proceed.

19             MS. EDGERTON:

20        Q.   Now that we've got the list in front of us, have a look at entry

21     number 1563.  That's Radenko Magazin.  He was killed on

22     Dobrovoljacka Street.  He's a member of the JNA; right.  You put his rank

23     there.  He's a soldier; right?

24        A.   He's the victim of a war crime.  We are talking about victims of

25     war crimes here.

Page 38510

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, witness, you talked about civilians.  You

 2     said they were all civilians.  You didn't say they were victims of war

 3     crimes.  You said they were civilians.  And I would invite you to make a

 4     clear distinction between the two.

 5             Please proceed with your answer.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then I do apologise.  On this list,

 7     there are victims of war crimes.  And since soldiers are also victims of

 8     war crimes, that is to say, they were not killed in combat, they are also

 9     contained in this list.  I'm sorry I didn't explain it the first time.

10     So these are victims of war crimes.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   How many soldiers are on this list?

13        A.   We did not make that kind of distinction.  But it's very clear

14     here.  It's always mentioned here if somebody is a soldier.  That means

15     that that person was killed as part of a war crime in Dobrovoljacka, in a

16     camp in Sarajevo, so it's all mentioned here in the notes.  But such a

17     person was not killed as a result of his activities as a member of the

18     army.  Rather, he fell victim to a war crime.

19        Q.   So what you're saying is you've never taken this

20     computer-generated list over to your own Ministry of Defence and run it

21     through their systems to identify how many VRS soldiers are on the list;

22     right?

23        A.   Well, we worked in the Ministry of Interior, and I already told

24     you in which way we did our work.  It was based on how a person fell

25     victim.  That is how we compiled this list.  At that moment, it didn't

Page 38511

 1     matter whether that person was a member of the VRS or the JNA.  That

 2     person was a victim of a war crime, which means that that is against

 3     international law so that person is a war crimes victim.

 4        Q.   You don't know either that you have members of the Army of Bosnia

 5     and Herzegovina on this list, do you?

 6        A.   There are also members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, those

 7     who fell victim to war crimes and that's the situation in Kazani where

 8     members of the 9th and 10th Mountain Brigade precisely killed Serbs who

 9     were within their own ranks.  And I also a have a series of examples.  I

10     know it by heart because this is it a case that we submitted to the

11     prosecutor's office of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

13        A.   -- and they are victims of war crimes.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I didn't ask you about

15     Kazani.  My colleague can do that in re-examination if you want to talk

16     about it.  The question was simple:  Do you know or don't you that you

17     have members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on this list.

18        A.   I think I've just given you an answer, that there are members of

19     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who are Serbs and victims of war crimes

20     and they were killed by the same members of that army.

21        Q.   All right.  So how many members of the Army of Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina do you have on this list then?

23        A.   I'll give you the same answer that I gave for members of the Army

24     of Republika Srpska and who were victims of war crimes we did not

25     establish that.  We did not make a distinction there and that was not the

Page 38512

 1     aim of this investigation.  Their affiliations of any kind.  Their

 2     affiliations with an ethnic group, that is.

 3        Q.   So when you insisted that this list was only civilians earlier

 4     today, and you insisted that actually when you talked about this list and

 5     in the Dragomir Milosevic case and in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case

 6     when you insisted it was only civilians, that was actually incorrect,

 7     wasn't it?

 8        A.   We're not understanding each other.  This has to do with war

 9     crimes victims.  That is to say, all the persons whose names are on this

10     list were unlawfully killed.  So these are persons who were killed.  At

11     the moment when they were killed, when they lost their lives, they were

12     not acting in their capacity of military personnel.  They were not

13     carrying out combat tasks.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it - but just a clarifying question -

15     there are quite a number of people on this list as reported missing.

16     Were they victims of war crimes as well, or is that just unknown?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, obviously these persons who

18     are recorded here as missing are actually persons who were taken by

19     military or police organs from their apartments and then all trace was

20     lost of them.  Obviously because time went by - it's already been 20

21     years - well, already after a few years, it was clear that they were

22     victims of war crimes because they could not just disappear.  They were

23     taken away.  They were taken to a camp or somewhere.  They were killed

24     along the way or in the camp and their bodies were removed and it is

25     evident that they are victims of war crimes, in terms of the way in which

Page 38513

 1     they went missing.  You know, they didn't go in an unknown direction from

 2     their apartments.  They were taken away by organs.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Sometimes the entry just says "missing" or "went

 4     missing" and for quite a few others, it says they were taken from their

 5     apartment, et cetera.  But I do understand from your answer that you are

 6     assuming that if there's no further data in here, that you assume that

 7     they were taken, that you assume that they were killed because they could

 8     not just disappear.  That's your reasoning for such conclusions.  Is that

 9     correctly understood?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  And you will see that when

11     speaking of missing persons it usually says that this is information

12     provided by the office for searching for missing persons.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MS. EDGERTON:

15        Q.   So you've not done any checks into these names of missing persons

16     to make sure that they're not still alive, have you?

17        A.   Well, of course, we checked.  That's done every day for every

18     day, from the moment when they were reported as missing.  To this day.

19     There are their families, there are witnesses, so it's an illusion.  I

20     wish they were all alive.  I would be so happy, believe me if you found

21     1.000 persons or 2.000 persons who were alive after all and that none of

22     them went missing.  Rather, that they were all living somewhere abroad.

23     I wish it was that way because I have lots of relatives and friends

24     amongst them.

25        Q.   So if you checked to see what their status was, did you by any

Page 38514

 1     chance check and see whether they had registered to vote in 1997 or in

 2     2000?  That would be an easy check, wouldn't it?

 3        A.   This list was compiled in 2007, as were the files, so it's all of

 4     12 years after the end of the war.  We did find different cases, somebody

 5     reported, say, in 1992, that a person went missing and whenever we found

 6     this person to be alive.  I didn't need a voters' list.  It's enough for

 7     me to enter the database of the CIPS because in order to be able to vote

 8     every person has to have an ID card.  And this information is accessible

 9     to all my operatives.  It's sufficient to check the new ID or the new

10     passport that everybody has so this would just be additional work that

11     wouldn't really lead us anywhere.

12        Q.   So you're here confirming that there's no one on this list who is

13     still alive.  Is that what I'm to take from that?

14        A.   None of these persons are alive, those who are here.  At least on

15     the basis of the checks that we've run so far.

16        Q.   Well, could we have look, please, at 65 ter number 32974.

17             So, Mr. Tusevljak, what we did when we received this list, is we

18     looked at this list against the voter registers for the elections in 1997

19     and 1998 and 2000 and we came up with a list of people who were

20     potentially alive.  And we took that list - and there were 80 names - and

21     we pared it down to ten people and we sent that list down to our field

22     office in Sarajevo and here you see the results of what we asked them to

23     do.  We forwarded it to our field office who then forwarded it to

24     authorities in Republika Srpska, for the Ministry of Interior, and to

25     authorities in the Federation to see if these people could be located.

Page 38515

 1     And I'll show you their responses.

 2             Let's just go down a little bit and look at number 1 on this

 3     list.  His name is Zoran Gajic.  And in B/C/S you'll have to go over to

 4     page 2, please.

 5             Zoran Gajic, who appears at entry number 511 on your list, lives

 6     in Brcko district.  If we go down to the next name, Dragan Zrnic, who

 7     appears at number 949 of your list, he also lives in Brcko district.  And

 8     if we go over to page 2 in English and just a little bit further down the

 9     page in B/C/S.  Vitomir Jaric, who is entry number 1080 on your list,

10     lives in Zvornik.  And Zoran Krsmanovic, number 1394 on your list, lives

11     in Bijeljina.  So there's four actually still alive.  And one

12     Lena Njegovanovic, number 1967 on your list, was alive and registered in

13     Trebinje in 2010.

14             And then if we go over to Annex D of this document at B/C/S page

15     ten and English pages 9 and 10.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  And I'll just be a couple of more minutes,

17     Your Honour.

18        Q.   You see -- I'll wait until we see the B/C/S.  You see that Gajic,

19     Zrnic and Krsmanovic were all personally contacted.  Gajic was a soldier

20     and police officer.  He was never deployed in Sarajevo.  And that's what

21     he told the authorities when he was contacted.  Zrnic was a former JNA

22     officer absorbed into the VRS and later a member of the police.  He

23     wasn't missing at all.  And Krsmanovic, and we have to go over to the

24     next page in both languages.  Krsmanovic -- pardon me, if we could go

25     back over to page 3 in this document and page 4 in B/C/S. Krsmanovic,

Page 38516

 1     whom you allege was taken into June 1992 from his apartment in

 2     Novo Sarajevo, was deployed in Bijeljina during the war and never in or

 3     around Sarajevo.

 4             So, Mr. Tusevljak, my question to you is:  The information on

 5     your list in terms of the missing is unreliable, isn't it?

 6        A.   No.  I would like to see that list now.  Why this persons are on

 7     that list.  I now have persons here with certain information and then I

 8     don't see those notes, why that person is on that list.  I'm talking

 9     about the list of persons about 3.300, and you are referring to ten.  So

10     I'd had to have this huge brain in order to remember 3.300 persons and

11     the reasons why they're on this list.  And I really cannot see that now,

12     and I don't know if these are the persons who are on the list because

13     over here it says reason why these persons are on the list.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll look at that, if need be, after the break.

15     Because we'll first take a break.  We'd like to see you back in 20

16     minutes.  You may follow the usher.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting, I'd like to briefly deal with

22     D768.

23             On the 24th of August of this year, the Defence advised the

24     Chamber and the Prosecution through an e-mail that the parties are

25     reached an agreement that the handwriting on page 2 column 4 of D768

Page 38517

 1     reads:

 2             "Yugoslav."

 3             Since in outstanding matter was the reason D768 retained its MFI

 4     status, the Chamber now admits D768 into evidence.  The Chamber also puts

 5     on the record that the Defence in the same e-mail stated that the parties

 6     had agreed that the source of this handwriting is unknown.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, if you're ready, please proceed.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.  Thank you.

10        Q.   Now, with respect to the list overall, you pointed out in your

11     testimony in-chief that you said the list and your files contain the

12     names and the years of birth of the people listed and their father's

13     name.  And when His Honour Judge Orie then queried you about a missing --

14     at transcript page 16 and 17 a missing year of birth for one of your

15     entries, you pointed out the list was not finalised.

16             So in counting up the entries on your list, we realised that a

17     total of 1.437 entries were missing a first name or a father's name or a

18     year of birth.

19             So, similarly, we should consider those entries as inconclusive

20     or not finalized cases.  Is that fair?

21        A.   Not only those 1.000-something, but none of these are final and

22     complete.  This is not a list that was verified by that commission.  I

23     already said that this was taken from the files and attachments,

24     evidence, have been included in these files pertaining to the

25     victimisation of these persons.  So the list is not final to this day.

Page 38518

 1     It's still being worked on.  However, it is evident that all these

 2     persons that are on the list, that there is some evidence about these

 3     persons that indicate what their fate was.

 4        Q.   So, then, when we talk about their fate, you would agree with me

 5     that this list includes the names of Serbs in Bosnian-held Sarajevo who

 6     were killed as a result of shelling and sniping by VRS forces; right?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Well, let's please go back to the list, D1216, English page 193

 9     and B/C/S page 213.  I want to go to entry number 2597.

10             Right.  Entry number 2597 is for Jadranka Tendzera and your

11     information, as I understand it -- she was born in 1963, and your

12     information, as I understand, says she was killed by a shell at

13     Vojnicko Polje on 4 February 1994, information from the centre for

14     investigating crimes against the Serb people in Belgrade.

15             Now I want to go to P867 now, please.  P867 is the investigative

16     file for a shelling in Dobrinja, which is Bosnian-held Sarajevo, where

17     nine people were killed and 20 were wounded.

18             And could we please go over to page 6 in both languages of this

19     document.  And page 6 is the second page of the on-site investigative

20     report.

21             This on-site investigative report lists the victims and you see

22     Jadranka Tendzera is number 1 on the list and in addition to her, there

23     is Enver Mustagrudic, Saida Bakcevic, Ermin Kolar and Aisa Sito and an

24     unidentified child.  And then listed below are three additional victims

25     who succumbed to their injuries.

Page 38519

 1             So, Mr. Tusevljak, not only is your information wrong, and you

 2     were incorrect in the assertion that you just made about Mrs. Tendzera,

 3     you've listed the only Serb victim in a large-scale shelling in

 4     Bosnian-held Sarajevo; right?

 5        A.   But we see here that we had mentioned that this is information

 6     from the centre for the investigation of war crimes in Belgrade.  That's

 7     very clear.  That is to say, we used the information that we had, that

 8     is, information from the centre for investigation of war crimes from

 9     Belgrade, what we mentioned that, we did not have this document here.  I

10     could take a look at it and I could see if it's the same person.  If it's

11     Dobrinja or Vojnicko Polje, because they are two completely different

12     neighbourhoods in Sarajevo.  Completely different neighbourhoods,

13     separate.  One is Dobrinja, the other one is Vojnicko Polje.

14        Q.   Dobrinja was Bosnian-held and Vojnicko Polje was Serb-held during

15     the war; correct?

16        A.   No.  None of the two.  Only one part of Dobrinja was under Serb

17     control.  The main part of Dobrinja was under BH army control and the

18     same with Vojnicko Polje.  One part was controlled by the VRS, the other

19     by ABiH.

20        Q.   So, if we give you, after the next break, a copy of this

21     investigative report and a copy of Mrs. Tendzera's death certificate, is

22     that going to help you confirm whether or not there are Serb victims of

23     VRS shelling and sniping into Bosnian-held Sarajevo on this list?

24        A.   It's possible that there were casualties killed by the Serb

25     forces, but our intention was to put on the list anyone who was Serb and

Page 38520

 1     was killed in Sarajevo by Bosnian forces.  Through our investigations, we

 2     received reports or found out from witnesses that many people who were

 3     victimised in camps or were killed were shown -- were held out to be

 4     victims killed by Serbs which was not the case.  You have the case of

 5     Romeo and Juliet from Sarajevo, where the girl was killed by --

 6        Q.   If you want to talk about that case, you can do it in your

 7     re-direct examination.  I'd like to focus on another incident.

 8             Let's have a look at P6482, please, and I'm going ask you about a

 9     couple of entries on your list now.  Gordana Bogdanovic, your entry says

10     she was -- your entry says:  Killed civilians on the territory of

11     Sarajevo, information provided by the centre for crimes committed over

12     the Serbian people, Belgrade.  She got killed by a shell 5 February 1994.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Can we go over, please, to the next page in both

14     languages.

15        Q.   Go down to number 8 on this list in both languages.  You --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is there no problem with broadcasting this list?

17             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll defer to my colleague to my right.  Not to be

18     broadcast, he says.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  And he'll verify and advise us in due course.

21        Q.   She appears at number 8 on the list.  If we go further down to

22     number 33 on this list, we see Marija Knezevic whose name appears in

23     entry at 1269 on your list.  Ruza Malovic who is entry number 1601 on

24     your list appears at number 39 and actually in addition, you know, just

25     in terms of Serb victims, there's an additional three on this list that

Page 38521

 1     aren't even referred to on your list; Klacar, Vojnovic - four - Cesic,

 2     Cebrez [phoen].

 3             So in addition to victims of the incident for which General Galic

 4     has been convicted and sentences, your list includes victims of the

 5     market-place massacre in February 1994; right?

 6        A.   You have to let me see my list again to see the explanation why

 7     these people were included.  Because I don't know by heart.  I have to

 8     see the explanation next to the name.

 9        Q.   Let's go back to your list for a second because it might be

10     somewhat illuminating in terms of the level of information that you

11     provide about these individuals.

12             Let's go to number 1601 on D1216.  It's at ET in B/C/S, page 132.

13             We see the entry for Ruza Malovic in front of us in your

14     language.  And now in English.  The data on Mrs. Malovic simply says,

15     Killed civilian in Sarajevo.  It doesn't provide an indication as to

16     whether or not it happened in Bosnian-held Sarajevo or Serb-held

17     Sarajevo.  It doesn't provide an indication as to the date of the

18     incident.  This kind of --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  5th February [Overlapping speakers] ...

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Pardon me.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 5th February.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  1993, not 4.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Markale was in 1994, February.  If

24     I remember well.  The 1st of February; right?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we heard quite a bit of evidence that it was

Page 38522

 1     on the 5th of February.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:

 5        Q.   So this kind of deficient data risks being misleading as to where

 6     an incident might have happened, doesn't it?

 7        A.   That's why I'm telling you, the list is preliminary and the

 8     investigation continues.  What you saying now, all of this is at the

 9     stage of checks and adding to the material.  This is not a shut book.

10     It's an open book.  It's open to all people of goodwill to provide

11     evidence on killing of Serbs in Sarajevo.  We have never tried to run

12     away from any kind of correction from day one because our purpose was to

13     get to the truth.  So that those who are responsible for crimes be held

14     accountable, be brought to justice.  There are investigations ongoing,

15     both in the cantonal prosecutor's office and the district prosecutor's

16     offices.

17        Q.   So you haven't updated this list since the verdict was rendered

18     in the Prosecution of General Galic, have you?

19        A.   Now different policemen are working on investigations of war

20     crimes for the city of Sarajevo.  I am in engaged in other work, and I

21     have had no insight in a long time what corrections have been made.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the meantime, I would like that ask the

24     witness:  When was the last update of this list conducted?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.  But I think

Page 38523

 1     where the case files are in the Security Services Centre in eastern

 2     Sarajevo there is a Department for Investigating War Crimes and that

 3     department has the possibility, every time they obtain new evidence, to

 4     include that evidence in the case file of the relevant victim.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But you don't know when it was updated the last

 6     time?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I really don't know.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             Ms. Edgerton.

10             MS. EDGERTON:

11        Q.   So just based on two incidents we've been discussing now,

12     shelling in Dobrinja and the market-place shelling the next day, it looks

13     like the only narrow thing we can be sure of in terms of this list is

14     that it does -- are you not hearing translation, interpretation?

15        A.   No, it's just that I absolutely don't agree with you, and that's

16     why I'm --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you first listen to the question before you

18     start expressing agreement or disagreement.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MS. EDGERTON:

21        Q.   The only thing we can be sure of on this list in terms of

22     up-to-date investigation is that it includes Serb victims of shelling and

23     sniping in Bosnian-held Sarajevo; right?

24        A.   No.  The way you are putting the question, it's impossible to

25     answer it with a yes or no.

Page 38524

 1             If I understood the question correctly, and I hope I did, you are

 2     trying with this list of 3.300 names and case files is to reduce it to

 3     two incidents and there are 3.300 incidents involved.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not expected to comment of what the

 5     intentions of Ms. Edgerton are.  That's not something for a witness.

 6             The question was simply whether it's true or not that Serb

 7     victims of shelling and sniping in Bosnian-held Sarajevo were included.

 8             Ms. Edgerton, I take it that you did not want to say whether all

 9     of those were included but at least some of cases of Serb victims of

10     shelling and sniping are included on this list, whether you would agree

11     with that.

12             That was the question.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot agree with that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please put the next question to the witness.

15             MS. EDGERTON:

16        Q.   If investigations into this list have been ongoing, you would

17     have seen, wouldn't you, that there are records of contemporaneous

18     investigations that point to where it's been concluded that people on

19     this list have been victims of Serb shelling.

20             I'll give you another example.  Let's go to number 1316; English

21     and B/C/S page 109.

22             Your entry for Vera Kovackovic says she was killed on 30

23     August 1993 by an artillery shell in Sarajevo.  Information from the

24     centre for investigating war crimes -- pardon me, investigating crimes

25     against the Serbian people in Belgrade.

Page 38525

 1             Now, first of all, where we see an entry at that says "Sarajevo,"

 2     are we meant to infer Bosnian-held Sarajevo or Serb-held Sarajevo?  What

 3     kind of location -- what kind of precision are we meant to draw from that

 4     kind of designation?

 5        A.   As can you see in each of these cases, it says this is

 6     information from the centre for investigating crimes against Serb people

 7     in Belgrade.  That's what they had at that time.  As you were able to

 8     see, in some cases we have information from the office for tracing

 9     missing persons.  We have information from the black book by Toholj and

10     we have witness testimony as well.  We always put in the nota bene where

11     the information came from and that's why I'm telling you, the

12     investigations are ongoing.  They continue.

13             Now, are they quick enough?  I, myself, am not satisfied.  I'm

14     unhappy that we don't have more evidence included in the files.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I interrupt you because I'd like to hear an answer

16     to the question.

17             If, in this column, it says "Sarajevo," how do you interpret that

18     even if it comes from Belgrade sources?  Do you interpret this as

19     Sarajevo Bosnian-held or Serb-held or both, or ... what's your

20     understanding of a reference to Sarajevo in this context?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could be both.

22             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you've answered

23     the question.

24             Please proceed.

25             MS. EDGERTON:

Page 38526

 1        Q.   And where it says absolutely nothing about the place of the

 2     incident, are we similarly meant to infer that it is within Bosnian-held

 3     Sarajevo or Serb-held Sarajevo?

 4        A.   Again, okay, there are a couple of cases here such as

 5     Goran Kovackovic killed by a shell, information from the centre for

 6     investigating crimes against Serb people in Belgrade, which means this

 7     contains only information that was available at that time in 1996 or 1997

 8     when these case files were compiled and when this list was made.

 9        Q.   So the answer is, it could be either one; right?

10        A.   Yes.  Yes, it could be both.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I think I'd like to leave the list for a while and

12     move on to an area that you were discussing in your evidence in-chief the

13     very first day you came here, and it was about Muslim arming before the

14     war.

15             You talked about a shipment of 400 sniper rifles at transcript

16     page 37070 to 37073, and that you said was an event that happened in

17     1991.  And then you talked about a document, D1108, that was issued by

18     the chef de cabinet of Delimustafic, ordering the relocation of weapons

19     and ammunition from Rakovica to Zlatiste.

20             Now, I just want to ask you a little bit about Rakovica.  You

21     said Rakovica was guarded by the SJB of Ilidza.  It's correct, isn't it,

22     that the forces of the Ilidza SJB were mainly Serb; right?

23        A.   No.  The chief of the police station was my colleague Edin Milic

24     and the ethnic structure was balanced.  The chief of the police station

25     was Bosniak.  I'm not talking about the heads of department for crime

Page 38527

 1     prevention or other departments --

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... that's fine.  You answered

 3     my question with a no.

 4             The police commander was Tomo Kovac; right?

 5        A.   Yes.  But that's a lower portion than the chief of police

 6     station, considerably lower.

 7        Q.   And in July 1995, Tomo Kovac was the deputy minister of the

 8     interior for the Republika Srpska; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now you said also that you knew about the security situation in

11     the area of Rakovica at the time this was alleged to have happened, 1991.

12     And you knew that the area of Rakovica was ethnically mixed.

13             Now you would also know that by the end of May 1992 Rakovica, the

14     whole area of Rakovica had been taken over by Serb forces; right?

15        A.   I'm talking about the July 1992 and --

16        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

17        A.   -- there's a huge difference.

18        Q.   I'm asking you, since you knew so much about the security

19     situation in the area of Rakovica at the date of this document which was

20     July 1991, you would know that by the end of May 1992 the whole area of

21     Rakovica had been taken by Serb forces.  You knew that; right?

22        A.   We're talking about the security situation from July 1991 when

23     the security was guaranteed to everyone.  We had a joint police force and

24     all other joint things.  There was no security risk in Rakovica at the

25     time.

Page 38528

 1        Q.   You haven't answered my question at all.  Did you know that by

 2     the end of May 1992 Serb forces took the area of Rakovica?

 3        A.   It's not true that Serb forces took it.  We lived there.  We

 4     couldn't occupy something where we lived.  It was ours.  How would we

 5     take it over?  How could Serb forces take it over?  We lived there, we

 6     were attacked.  We were not the ones who were attacked.  How could we

 7     occupy our own places?  My family has lived in Sarajevo for 150 years,

 8     now there's no one.  Thousands of my relatives had to leave Sarajevo.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, listen carefully to the question

10     Ms. Edgerton will now put to you.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   Let's go back to time a little bit to March 1992.  You're a

13     member of the police and a very senior member of the police so would you

14     have known that under Kovac's command in March 1992, the Serb police

15     blocked the MUP warehouse --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud.  Mr. Mladic is -- no audible

17     volume.

18             Please proceed.

19             MS. EDGERTON:

20        Q.   -- blocked the MUP warehouse at Dugi Potok and [Overlapping

21     speakers] ...

22        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, don't interrupt Ms. Edgerton when she is

24     phrasing a question.  You have an opportunity to answer to it but first

25     you have to listen.

Page 38529

 1             MS. EDGERTON:

 2        Q.   -- and distributed arms to the Serbs.  I'm simply asking because

 3     you were clearly a senior member of the police at the time you were

 4     familiar by your own admission with what was going on in the area of

 5     Ilidza in 1991, I'm asking you if you knew about these events in

 6     March and in May 1992.

 7        A.   In March 1992, there were no events at all except that the first

 8     and the second barricades happened, where a member of a Serb wedding

 9     party was killed.  After that, in March, there were no more events.  And

10     on 4 April, the war began in the territory of Sarajevo and that warehouse

11     was in the territory under the control of the MUP and the Army of

12     Republika Srpska.  There was no need to block anything.

13        Q.   Now I want to go to Zlatiste that you also talked about.

14             Now in discussing that document, you said, you describe Zlatiste

15     and you said it used to be a hotel, restaurant on top with warehouses

16     below.  But my question to you is this.  Apart from what you read in that

17     document, D1108, you actually had no personal knowledge that ammunition

18     and weapons from Rakovica might have been located to Zlatiste, did you?

19     It was only based on what you read in the document.

20        A.   Yes.  First of all, I said that based on documents.  I spoke

21     primarily about 400 sniper rifles that went to Citluk, the Islamic

22     religious community drove it away in their van and I personally was

23     involved.  And the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska found these

24     documents in Rakovica facility where it was obvious how much was shipped

25     away and already then in that year, I knew how much was shipped away from

Page 38530

 1     which facility.  That was a secret in July 1991 so how could I know it?

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now irrespective of whatever might have happened in

 3     July 1991 and whatever weapons may or may not have been moved, you know

 4     that by the beginning of April 1992, a part of the military had actually

 5     moved to Zlatiste.  It was under VRS control by April 1992.  You know

 6     that.

 7        A.   Your information is totally incorrect.  The JNA and the Army of

 8     Republika Srpska had nothing to do with Zlatiste.  The forces of the

 9     Bosnian Serbs and the police liberated Zlatiste, I think, in June or

10     July 1992.  Until that time, it was under the control of the BH army.  I

11     know that because we were unable to communicate from Lukavica via

12     Zlatiste and Trebevic with Pale instead, we had to take the macadam

13     road --

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

15        A.   -- Zlatiste was not in our hands.

16             You asked me about Zlatiste that was not in our hands on that

17     April, May, 1992, let alone before that.  I mean, really.

18        Q.   Now --

19        A.   Nothing to do with any of this.

20        Q.   You talked also, Mr. Tusevljak, about -- you talked about the

21     situation in Lukavica and you had a look at some video that you said

22     depicted some part of Grbavica.  But I just want to get a couple of

23     things straight.  And that was in your testimony the last time you came

24     here and today.  I just want to get a couple of things straight.  You

25     actually, before moving to Lukavica, you actually worked in the police

Page 38531

 1     school in Vrace for a period, didn't you?

 2        A.   No, I never worked at the police school in Vrace.  Only at the

 3     very beginning of the war, I was in Nedzarici, because I am from

 4     Nedzarici, and the seat of the Ministry of the Interior of

 5     Republika Srpska in April and mid-June, I think, was temporarily at the

 6     school in Vrace.  And sometime in May 1992, we established a centre of

 7     security services of the Romanija and Birac area and that's where I

 8     worked, and its seat was in Vrace for perhaps about five days, because

 9     Vrace was under constant fire, artillery and infantry fire.  We had many

10     casualties, many people wounded, killed.  The conditions were simply not

11     right for work and, therefore, on the basis of an order of the minister

12     of the interior, we withdrew to --

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I just asked you whether or

14     not you worked there.  Your answer was for a period of time temporarily,

15     perhaps for about five days.

16             Now I just want to stay with that area of town because you said

17     in your testimony in-chief I was in Grbavica very often during the war.

18     So let's stay with that area of town because I want to know what you

19     would have seen being in Grbavica.  You would have seen the mortars in

20     that area of town.  Grbavica isn't a big place.  So you would have seen

21     them; right?

22        A.   No, never.  I never saw mortars in Grbavica.  And I don't know of

23     any -- I wasn't at the actual front line but as far as I know in this

24     civilian area because I also lived in Grbavica, I had a refugee apartment

25     there, and that was the reason why I was there for a while, while the

Page 38532

 1     centre was in Lukavica.  That's why I was in Grbavica.  And I never saw

 2     any mortars in Grbavica.  I'm now talking about the residential urban

 3     area of Grbavica.

 4        Q.   Did you see the APCs, the APCs on Ozrenska street in the

 5     immediate vicinity of the police school?  Did you see the APCs?

 6        A.   When?  May?  When?  Well, of course, we had police APCs and the

 7     military had their own.  And the command was there, the army command.

 8     This is normal military weaponry.  I saw tanks too.

 9        Q.   And where did you see the tanks in Grbavica?

10        A.   I spoke about Ozrenska street now.  The difference between

11     Ozrenska and Grbavica is perhaps a kilometre as the crow flies and if you

12     take a vehicle, it's 3 or 4 kilometres.  You should know the

13     configuration of the terrain.  This really has nothing to do with one

14     another.  Grbavica -- I mean, do you know what a tank would be in

15     Grbavica?  I mean, it's like this.  It would have been destroyed with a

16     Zolja or Osa, the same second because it was visible this way from

17     Sarajevo.

18        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

19        A.   Oh, all right.

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... tanks?  That's all I asked?

21        A.   You're talking about the periphery now, Ozrenska, I don't know.

22     Zagorska, and so on.  I mean, the names of those streets, well, in that

23     area.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  In all fairness to the witness [Overlapping

25     speakers] ...

Page 38533

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 2     continues] ... where is the front line.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- where he did see the tanks in Grbavica.  At the

 4     same time, I establish that he started talking about tanks where you had

 5     asked only about APCs.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:

 8        Q.   And you would have seen the sharpshooters; right?

 9        A.   No.  I did not see any sharpshooters for the reasons that I have

10     already mentioned.  Namely, I wasn't at the front line itself.  Believe

11     me, I absolutely did not.  How could I see a sharpshooter?  If there are

12     any sharpshooters, they're at the very front line.  They're not way back

13     at the fifth line.  What did I see?  Somebody sniping, carrying a sniper

14     rifle?  What?

15             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, you

16     haven't seen them.  That's what you were asked for.  Whether you could

17     have seen them, or where they were there, whether they should be close to

18     the lines or not is not something that was asked.  You haven't seen it;

19     you've answered the question.  Thank you.

20             MS. EDGERTON:

21        Q.   If you were in Grbavica so much during the course of the war, you

22     know what the Serb army firing positions were.  Don't you?  Because they

23     were in the immediate vicinity of the police school, among other places.

24        A.   When you talk to witnesses, I do apologise, a map would suffice

25     and then the Trial Chamber can be shown very clearly where the police

Page 38534

 1     school is, where the Serb line is, where the Bosniak line is.  Because

 2     the MUP school is in Vrace.  It's not at Grbavica.  I know -- I mean, if

 3     you didn't know at that time in Grbavica where the front lines were and

 4     where the sniping was, you'd be dead.

 5        Q.   I'll give you a map.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  65 ter number 32903c which is a cutout from

 7     65 ter number 32903 with the operative date of 19 December 1992.

 8        Q.   So, Mr. Tusevljak, this map depicts part of Grbavica, depicts

 9     Grbavica and part of Vrace.  It shows tanks moving along the road

10     immediately behind the police school and you see the police school marked

11     just near the stadium.  And it shows tanks, APCs and machine-guns

12     throughout Grbavica and Vrace.

13             So you asked for the map.

14        A.   What's the date of this map?  Where were these tanks marked?

15     Which date?  Which year?

16        Q.   I've already said 1992 December.

17             So, Mr. Tusevljak, your evidence is that you didn't see any of

18     the combat equipment that was deployed throughout Grbavica and Vrace,

19     except for the tanks and the APCs; right?

20        A.   Please, this is December 1992.  In the school at Vrace in

21     December 1992 there was not a single policemen.  So the school in Vrace

22     was completely abandoned.  It was at the actual front line.  My

23     communication with Grbavica went along the road from Lukavica, then I

24     went down this road, you see here?  The one that's been marked here?

25     Towards Milavici.

Page 38535

 1        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 2        A.   Please, please.  Then the road that goes down to Grbavica, it's

 3     that road.  That's where there was a sniper shooting all the time and it

 4     was visible from Sarajevo all the time.  I had no need to go right or

 5     left anywhere because I did not belong to the Army of Republika Srpska so

 6     there was no need for me to go to the front line itself.  Just take a

 7     look at this road.  Just take a look at this road.

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... if you could do yourself a

 9     favour, you have testified here three times now, and you know how

10     difficult it is for the interpreters to accurately interpret what you say

11     when you speak at such speed and when you don't make a pause between your

12     sentences.

13             So I'm sorry to have had to speak so to you, but it causes the

14     interpreters difficulty to do their job when you speak so quickly.  If I

15     could just encourage you to slow down.

16        A.   I really do apologise to the interpreters.  But, quite simply, I

17     get carried away.  I'm going to repeat this, if it's not too hard.  In

18     December --

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... would you like to mark

20     something on the map, Mr. Tusevljak.

21        A.   I can speak about the journey I took where the police station

22     was.

23        Q.   Is that -- we're getting away from the question that I asked

24     before we go further and I need to clarify this for my own sake.  Your --

25     is your evidence that, apart from the tanks and the APCs you've

Page 38536

 1     mentioned, you didn't see the combat equipment and the mortars that this

 2     map shows deployed in Grbavica and Vrace?

 3        A.   No, I did not see them.  I've already told you actually when I

 4     was talking about the first time it was April and May when I said that I

 5     saw APCs and tanks.  This is a map from the month of December.  By then,

 6     my headquarters was in Lukavica and I only went to my apartment or the

 7     police station and it's this road here.  I can mark it for you:  From

 8     Lukavica to Grbavica through Vrace.

 9        Q.   I think I'm okay with that.  Thank you.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I have this as a Prosecution Exhibit,

11     please, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Then Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 32903C receives exhibit number

14     P7522, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we decide on admission you say it's a

16     extract were another 65 ter, which means not in evidence otherwise.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct, it is not.  It's 65 ter 32903.  Which is

18     a map of the units of the 1st Corps and the District Staff of the defence

19     of Sarajevo dated 19 December 1992.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That most likely is a very large map.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Indeed.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Would it not be good nevertheless to know what this

23     is an extract of and to have that or the text, even if it has no printout

24     for us, but to even have an opportunity to look at it in e-court.

25     Because then if you'd then have the extract uploaded together with the

Page 38537

 1     whole of the map, then at least we have an opportunity to look at it.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Absolutely.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it will be marked for identification, P7522,

 4     awaiting uploading the large map.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  One of my colleagues suggests that we -- we could

 8     already admit this extract and then that you separately upload the whole

 9     of it but I saw that you received further instructions as well so as I

10     did.

11             Could you convey them to us.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course, I'm advised that the large map is

13     already uploaded with an English translation of the texts.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then let me just ...

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then P7522 is admitted into evidence and do you went

17     then to tender the fully uploaded -- the entire map with English text and

18     that would be under number.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  P7523, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was - let me just -

22             MS. EDGERTON:  65 ter number 32903.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes under that number.  Then P7523 is admitted into

24     evidence, being the entire map.

25             Please proceed.

Page 38538

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Now I just want to talk about Lukavica for a second.  You

 3     actually moved to Energoinvest in Lukavica sometime during the summer of

 4     1992; right?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Did you say yes or no?

 7        A.   I said yes.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We could not hear the

 9     witness properly.

10             MS. EDGERTON:

11        Q.   And when you say Energoinvest that's actually a really huge

12     complex, isn't it, and it's less than about 2 kilometres southeast of

13     Lukavica.  Is that fair?

14        A.   I mean, I don't know how you imagine Lukavica to be, but

15     Energoinvest being in Lukavica?

16        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

17        A.   That is Lukavica.

18        Q.   I'll show you another map and with can we look at 65 ter 32903B,

19     please.  It's another cutout of the same map we've just admitted?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  There may be some confusion.  If you first ask

21     whether the witness moved to Energoinvest in Lukavica, and then later say

22     that Energoinvest is 2 kilometres from Lukavica, that's confusing.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Indeed, I was referring to the barracks which is

24     why I thought rather than speak I could clarify my situation with a map.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 38539

 1             MS. EDGERTON:

 2        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, we have another cutout from the Lukavica area of

 3     the map that we just spoke about, and if you still remember how to use

 4     the markers in e-court for e-court, I'd like you to just draw a circle

 5     around Energoinvest where your office was in Lukavica.

 6             If it's difficult for you, if you look in the middle of the page

 7     you see Electrotechnical Faculty written and then you see to the right of

 8     that, Energoinvest.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   For the record, the witness has marked a circle with the location

11     of his office at Lukavica for whatever period of time he stayed there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which is not very clear.  I think it is just a

13     little bit up from where the map reads Electrotechnical Faculty just

14     slightly to the right, slightly above, there's a very small, red, small

15     circle.  That's the what the witness marked.

16             Ms. Edgerton, now knowing what the witness marked, wouldn't that

17     be time for a break.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Absolutely.  If I could please have this as

19     another Prosecution Exhibit, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  The marked map receives exhibit number P7524.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P7524 is admitted into evidence.

23             Witness, you may follow the usher.  We'll take a break and would

24     like to see you back at a quarter to 2.00.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 38540

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at a quarter to 2.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.21 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, I, a few times, I urged the witness

 5     that there was no need to tell us why he didn't know something, but

 6     you're triggering that by your questions, by including in your questions

 7     why he should know.  So if you first asked what he knows and then

 8     depending on the answer, of course, you could further inquire.  But this

 9     triggers, again and again, long explanations as why the witness thinks he

10     should not know or that was not logical, but you're triggering it

11     yourself, and I'd like to draw your attention to that.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Understood.  Thank you.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You may continue, Ms. Edgerton.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, to go onto another area, I just want to talk about

17     how you got your information.  Because in your examination-in-chief, at

18     transcript page 38460, when you were discussing shelling on Serb-held

19     areas, my friend asked how you came to this information and you said two

20     things.  You said you were informed about it by members of the army and

21     you also know about these locations because persons of Serb ethnicity who

22     came to Ilidza from these areas and who were interviewed indicated the

23     locations from which the firing was coming.

24             So with that reminder in place, I'd just like that ask you:  Can

25     you tell us when exactly your office moved from Lukavica to Ilidza?

Page 38541

 1        A.   The office moved, I think, in March 1994.  However, from

 2     March until September, during that period of time, I worked at the seat

 3     of the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska in Bijeljina and then

 4     from the 1st of September, 1994, I returned to Ilidza yet again, where

 5     the seat of the centre was, and I continued doing the same work, chief of

 6     department for the crime prevention police.  So September 1994 until the

 7     end of war, I was in Ilidza.

 8        Q.   So the people, the line crossers, the refugees, the people who

 9     escaped, the people that you referred to who crossed the line to

10     Serb-held territory and gave information to your colleagues and your team

11     in the police would have told you about the situation that they were

12     living in, in Bosnian-held territory; right?

13        A.   Yes, they gave statements, and that is one of the ways in which

14     information was obtained.

15        Q.   All right.  So they would told you -- you spoke about Hrasnica in

16     your evidence in-chief.  So they would have told you about the situation

17     for civilians in Hrasnica.  That's how you got your information; right?

18        A.   They spoke about their suffering and the suffering of others that

19     they had been aware of.

20        Q.   And they would have told you, for example, about Hrasnica being

21     shelled; right?

22        A.   No, that kind of question was not put to them.  What they talked

23     about was their suffering, and we got the statements of the military

24     security.  And, in those statements, there were references to positions

25     of enemy forces.

Page 38542

 1        Q.   So are you saying -- because you had talked earlier about your

 2     team and your team going to do on-site investigations.  You're saying you

 3     didn't receive information about the situation for civilians from your

 4     team?

 5        A.   I was the supervisor then, and my colleagues interviewed these

 6     persons and, of course, these interviews and statements were accessible

 7     to me.  There's an official report that was written up by one of my

 8     operatives, and then I would have to read it whether there was enough

 9     information there.  I was not the signatory of the official report, but I

10     had to make it known to my supervisors by placing my initials there that

11     I had read these reports.

12        Q.   All right then.  Did you read reports about the civilian

13     population in Hrasnica?

14        A.   Yes, the suffering of Serbs in Hrasnica.

15        Q.   All right.  Let's have a look at P6756, please?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  In relation to that and before looking at it, you

17     said shelling of Hrasnica was not what they were asked about.  Did you

18     consider that -- let's just for argument's sake assume that there was --

19     some shells were fired at Hrasnica, you didn't consider that to be part

20     of the suffering of the civilian population?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm telling you we did not

22     talk to them then.  I mean, we talked about the suffering of the civilian

23     population with persons who were leaving Hrasnica.  We did not talk to

24     them about shelling from Serb positions.  I mean, we didn't.  I mean, it

25     wasn't the topic of our conversations.

Page 38543

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I still do not understand.  I mean, are you saying

 2     we didn't ask them because never any shell was fired at Hrasnica, or do

 3     you say being shelled is not part of suffering?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shelling was part of suffering, but

 5     it wasn't only these people from Hrasnica.  Any other witnesses.  That's

 6     not what was discussed with them.  If they had been detained, what was

 7     discussed was how they were treated, whether they witnessed killings and

 8     other forms of torture.  Whereas, the military security talked to them

 9     about that topic, from where the enemy fired at Ilidza, Vojkovici,

10     Nedzarici.  So that's for that area, and others, too.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MS. EDGERTON:

13        Q.   Before you call up that document, just to ask further about your

14     sources of information, you said the military security talked to them.

15     Parts of your team talked to them.  Who else talked to them?  What were

16     your sources of information from civilians who were leaving Sarajevo?

17     Who did you get the information from?

18        A.   I received information from my employees whose job it was to talk

19     to these civilians about war crimes.

20        Q.   And what kind of liaison did you have with, for example, your own

21     security services?

22        A.   With members of the Ministry of Interior, horizontally and

23     vertically.  We were in communication every day.  These people worked on

24     the same floor as I.

25        Q.   And so sharing information about the security situation would

Page 38544

 1     have been a normal procedure for you?

 2        A.   We did not discuss the security situation.  Crime prevention

 3     police investigates crimes.  There is a National Security Service.  There

 4     was at that time within the Ministry of Interior.  There is military

 5     security within the Army of Republika Srpska.  We belonged to the public

 6     security.  Crime prevention police investigates criminal offences and in

 7     that period, 1994/1995, we also investigated war crimes.

 8        Q.   All right.  So let's have a look at - and not for broadcast,

 9     please - P6756.

10             So this is a report from the SNB Ilidza about the situation in

11     Hrasnica from a very reliable source.  And it says in the third full

12     paragraph:  "Hrasnica is shelled the hardest from the direction of Gavric

13     Brdo, Gornji Kotorac, Vojkovici and Igman and it was reported that shells

14     occasionally also fly in from Igman mountain, due to misfire of Muslim

15     artillery.  According to the Muslim authorities in Hrasnica, since the

16     beginning of the war shelling by Serbian forces caused severe to light

17     injuries to 3.000 persons.  In that area, there are currently 5.500

18     children."

19             Is this a crime that you would have investigated?

20        A.   First of all, that is an Official Note from the National Security

21     Service, the department in Ilidza.  The date is 6 May 1993 when I was

22     still in Lukavica, and this is the first time I see this Official Note.

23        Q.   Is the shelling by Serbian forces that caused severe to light

24     injuries to 3.000 persons something you would have investigated?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 38545

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, if I read it well - and I think in all

 2     fairness to the witness it should be clear to him as well - that what we

 3     see under these bullet points is proceeded by a text saying the following

 4     information was published through the newspapers in Sarajevo whereas you

 5     introduced this material as a type of information you would receive from

 6     people who crossed the lines, whereas it seems to be newspaper sources

 7     rather than anything else, and I think would be fair to the witness that

 8     you make that clear to him.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  No problem, Your Honour.

10        Q.   You see on top of the first bullet, Mr. Tusevljak, that the

11     following information was published, through the newspapers in Sarajevo.

12     You've seen that in your own language.  So that's what I am reading to

13     you.

14        A.   You are obviously trying to deceive me now.

15             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is pure deceit.

17             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, would

18     you refrain from expressing accusations.  Rather, answer the question.

19             Please proceed when answering the question and refrain from

20     comments as you just made a second ago.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is evident now, Muslim forces

22     placed this information, which is false, for news publishing houses in

23     Sarajevo.

24             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  This translation into

Page 38546

 1     English is not quite correct.  For this sentence at least.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, we are also now informed that the translation is

 3     perhaps not fully correct.

 4             Witness, would be please so kind and I know that this is usually

 5     not done but since I received this comment, could you read the line which

 6     is the first line of the paragraph where the bullet points are think it

 7     starts with "za novinarske kuce [B/C/S spoken]."  Could you read that

 8     line for us slowly, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The following information has been

10     provided to the news publishing houses in Sarajevo.  The area of Hrasnica

11     has an excellently organised hospital" --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I invited you had to read the first line primarily.

13             Now you earlier commented on who had provided this.  And do you

14     have any knowledge about that?  Because you say that you for the first

15     time see all this.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's all I can read from

17     this Official Note written by (redacted)  But it's

18     obvious that this information was provided by Muslim forces.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whether that's --

20             MR. S. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... that name of the

21     (redacted) because he was a protected witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we should have a redaction there.

23             Witness, I'm -- one second.  In the ...

24             You said:  "It is evident now Muslim forces placed this

25     information, which is false, for news publishing houses in Sarajevo."

Page 38547

 1             Could you tell us what you know as to who provided this

 2     information to the publishing houses in Sarajevo?  If you have any

 3     knowledge.  If you don't have any knowledge, then please tell us as well.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within their Supreme Command, there

 5     was a special Department for Liaison -- for public relations and you will

 6     see from statements and I've read hundreds of them, of the Bosnian army

 7     members and --

 8             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm not

 9     interested in general as to who provided information, both for this

10     information, where you said it's evident now, Muslim forces placed this

11     information.

12             Do you have as any specific knowledge as who provided this

13     information which is contained in this Official Note?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From this Official Note, I cannot

15     see that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             Please proceed.

18             MS. EDGERTON:

19        Q.   Do you dispute that -- just having heard your comment with

20     respect to this document.  Is it your position that residential buildings

21     in areas of Hrasnica were not shelled by Serb forces?

22        A.   I don't have that information.  I was not a member of the army,

23     nor did I have occasion to look where shells were falling in Hrasnica, if

24     any.  I really don't know that.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for just a moment.

Page 38548

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have one small follow-up question.

 2             You say the information is false and now asked about any shells

 3     fired at Hrasnica, you say, I don't know it.  Does that mean that at

 4     least on that issue, you can't tell us whether this information is false

 5     or not?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the author of the text says

 7     that information was placed, that verb, "placed," is used to denote that

 8     some information was given to someone trying to present it as the truth.

 9     If the meaning were different, the language would be different.  It would

10     read, for instance, according to information or according to reports,

11     et cetera.  That's the difference in interpretation.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Those are your conclusions, but you're still unable

13     to tell us whether information about the shelling of Hrasnica was false

14     or was not false?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Hrasnica and also on the

16     boundary towards the combat zone in Ilidza there were Muslim units and

17     their commends that were certainly shelled.  I can confirm that.  It was

18     a war zone on both sides.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  A minute ago you said you had no knowledge about

20     that.  But let's leave it to that.

21             Please proceed.

22             MS. EDGERTON:

23        Q.   So in the information you received from people who had fled or

24     escaped or been exchanged or otherwise left Bosnian-held territory,

25     Bosnian-held Sarajevo, did you receive reports of shelling by VRS forces?

Page 38549

 1        A.   No, in those reports, I did not receive it.

 2        Q.   Now you've just commented on something that (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Redaction, please, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:

 7        Q.   You've just commented on one of your police colleagues had

 8     drafted on the basis of information received.  You've indicated that you

 9     received information from the military and from your own team.  Is it

10     your evidence that you received in your intel interviews no information

11     about shelling of Bosnian-held Sarajevo from these line-crossers and

12     people who were fleeing?

13        A.   I've already said we did not conduct intel interviews.  We took

14     statements on specific incidents of war crime and all the statements

15     taken from these persons in accordance with the Law on Criminal Procedure

16     from that time were submitted to the prosecutor.  The reason we

17     interviewed these people was to get information about cases of war crimes

18     and to provide that information to the prosecution.  The crime prevention

19     police did not have for a purpose to obtain any intelligence.

20        Q.   And so nobody told you that they couldn't give information about

21     cases of war crimes within your mandate because they were too afraid to

22     go outside?  Nobody told you that the shelling of Bosnian-held Sarajevo

23     by VRS forces kept them inside their homes, scared, too afraid to go out,

24     and they couldn't give any of the information you were after?

25        A.   No, that's not correct.  Nobody gave me that as a reason.  And in

Page 38550

 1     the books of the mortuary of the Kosevo Hospital that we reviewed there

 2     are Serb victims whose cause of death is not indicated.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, I see the break is in just a couple

 4     of minutes and I would actually go to another area now, so maybe it's

 5     a --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then perhaps we should not do that.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  -- good time.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning

 9     because we are not able to conclude your testimony today.  I instruct you

10     again that you should not speak or communicate in of what way with

11     whomever about your testimony, whether that's testimony you've given

12     either in July or last week, or this week, or still to be given tomorrow.

13     If you understand this instruction, then you may now follow the usher and

14     we see back you tomorrow morning at 9.30.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, before we break you put to the witness

17     that he received military information and there was no objection by

18     Mr. Lukic but, of course, the witness clearly said that the military

19     security talked to those who had crossed the lines about that topic from

20     where the enemy fired at Ilidza.  So it was apparently not part of what

21     the witness's team discussed with the crossers.  But to the extent you

22     suggest it that his answer would have included that the military did

23     that, the witness had clearly answered that the military was interested

24     in the enemy firing at Ilidza, not in any firing at Hrasnica from where

25     the crossers came.  So I want to urge you to be very precise in not

Page 38551

 1     misstating or even suggesting that that was something that the witness

 2     has said.

 3             We -- before we adjourn, could you tell us approximately where

 4     you in terms of time?

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  The estimate is that I have an hour and a half of

 7     my estimated time left, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Another matter, and I'm also addressing you,

 9     Mr. Lukic, if the Chamber understood your cross-examination well that it

10     was very much until now on the lists, et cetera, was focussing not on

11     exactly what happened with A, B or C but rather the reliability of the

12     information contained in that lest and there's no dispute about Serbs

13     falling victim of -- and Mr. Lukic I would like to ask you what your

14     estimate would be as to how much time you would need, but also keep this

15     in mind that it's not ultimately to establish this Mr. A, B or C were not

16     victims, and apparently there's an acceptance that there were quite a

17     number of victims, I take it, and I see Ms. Edgerton is nodding yes.  So,

18     therefore, it's mainly about reliability.

19             Could you give us as indication as to what time you need as

20     matters stand now.

21             MR. S. LUKIC:  Probably an hour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Probably an hour.  Which then might result in an

23     early adjournment tomorrow, if it's true that we need altogether two and

24     a half hours.

25             We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the 1st

Page 38552

 1     of September, 9.30 in the morning, this same courtroom, I.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day of

 4                           September, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.