Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 38630

 1                           Wednesday, 2 September 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber received information that, and, of course, we do know

12     that you announced yesterday, Ms. Edgerton, that you'd like to make

13     submissions in relation to the list that was D1216, if I remember well.

14             Please proceed.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             And I must say, after court yesterday, our team met to arrive at

17     a position with respect to D1216, which changes the nature of what I

18     might say to you today, so what I'd like to do is put that position on

19     the record.

20             Now, in fact, our position was referred to yesterday by

21     Mr. Tieger when he spoke with Your Honours and indicating that the

22     Prosecution felt that D1216 was insufficiently reliable for the

23     Trial Chamber to ground any findings on, and that, Your Honour, was

24     confirmed by cross-examination.  Confronted with repeated examples of the

25     list's errors and deficiencies, including missing biographical

Page 38631

 1     information, the fact that it contains the names of an unknown number of

 2     soldier, persons still alive, evidence of Serb perpetrators, the witness

 3     yesterday could only repeat that the list was preliminary, he had no idea

 4     when it was last updated, and the files needed to be completed, although

 5     20 years had elapsed and the commission that was supposed to verify the

 6     information never did so and no longer exists.

 7             So the list, Your Honours, in the Prosecution's view, doesn't

 8     advance the case beyond what's never been at issue as we indicated ...

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please focus very much on

11     admissibility.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  In terms of admissibility, Your Honour, I'm very

13     mindful that the document was admitted because, as I had indicated, an

14     objection was not voiced at the precise time, but the difference between

15     an admitted and unadmitted document is the weight that the Trial Chamber

16     accords to it.

17             So, Your Honours, given our position on the document and in view

18     these factors I've just articulated, what I wanted to advise Your Honours

19     is that we're not going to be seeking the special relief of

20     reconsideration in these circumstances, but we consider that

21     Your Honours --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  This is argument rather.  If you're not seeking the

23     reconsideration then we have a decision that it was admitted and if you

24     say the difference between an admitted and unadmitted document is the

25     weight that the Trial Chamber accords to it, well, I do not see what

Page 38632

 1     weight we could accord to an unadmitted document.  To an admitted

 2     document, of course, we have to consider what weight to give it - that's

 3     what we always do - against the totality of the evidence.

 4             Therefore, you're not seeking our reconsideration.  You might

 5     argue about the probative value when the time is there to do so.

 6             Anything else in relation to admission?

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  No.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then -- thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

 9             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  The witness

11     is Mladjen Kenjic.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Kenjic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

16     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  MLADJEN KENJIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Kenjic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, could you adjust the microphone.

24             Mr. Kenjic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You find

25     Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

Page 38633

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   I would like to ask you to slowly state for the transcript your

 7     name and surname.

 8        A.   Mladjen Kenjic.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kenjic, at one point in time, did you give a statement in

10     writing to the Defence of General Mladic?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

12     witness.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you please come a bit closer to the

14     microphone and speak clearly.

15             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  [Interpretation] Will this do?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I have to ask the interpreters because I hear them

17     but they should hear you.  And I think they're nodding yes so ... and

18     don't move too far away.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Kenjic, now I'm going to ask you to focus on the screen in

21     front of you.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And could we have 65 ter 1D01766

23     in e-court, please.

24        Q.   Can you see the first page of the statement in front of you on

25     the screen?  Could you please just tell us --

Page 38634

 1        A.   On the right-hand side.

 2        Q.   On the right-hand side.  Can you recognise the signature there?

 3        A.   Yes, it's my signature.

 4        Q.   Would you please look at the last page of this document as well.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please be assisted.

 6     Could the last page of the document be shown to the witness.

 7        Q.   Witness, sir, do you recognise the signature on this page?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Whose signature is that?

10        A.   Mine.

11        Q.   Did you enter the date here in your own hand, the 3rd of August,

12     2014?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Mr. Kenjic, yesterday during the proofing, did you have an

15     opportunity to read your statement once again?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Today, in this courtroom, now that you've taken the solemn

18     declaration to speak the truth, after having read this statement of

19     yours, after you read it yesterday, can you confirm today before this

20     Court that everything contained in it is truthful and that you would

21     answer the same questions identically today?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

24     tender Mr. Kenjic's statement into evidence.  65 ter 1D01766.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 38635

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D01766 receives exhibit number D1218,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I

 6     would like to read a short summary of Witness Mladjen Kenjic's statement.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Mladjen Kenjic, as a

 9     military conscript was mobilised on the 2nd of April, 1992 and started

10     working as a driver.  As the JNA left from Bosnia-Herzegovina, he was

11     given a new war-time assignment in the Protection Regiment of the VRS as

12     driver of the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS, General Mladic.  He

13     assumed that duty in May 1992 and he discharged these duties until 2002.

14             In his statement, he speaks about his specific duties, about the

15     way in which trips were organised, and how General Mladic toured the

16     terrain, about the functioning of the team that escorted General Mladic

17     as he carried out his tasks, about the system of communications that was

18     available, and especially about the way in which they travelled and the

19     route they took, the accommodation they had, and the duration of the trip

20     to Belgrade and back.

21             Further on, he says that from the 13th or 14th of July, 1995, he

22     was at home on leave and upon his return to Crna Rijeka, he remembers

23     that he was given the assignment to drive General Mladic to Belgrade.  He

24     states in detail what his specific duties were during those days where he

25     drove him and where he escorted General Mladic, starting with meetings in

Page 38636

 1     the building of the Presidency at Andricev Venac, Dobanovci, the wedding

 2     where General Mladic was best man, to the military medical academy VMA,

 3     and finally the way and time they returned to Crna Rijeka.  He asserts

 4     that he drove General Mladic to Han Pijesak and Crna Rijeka sometime in

 5     the afternoon hours after three nights spent in Belgrade and then he

 6     returned to his regular military tasks.

 7             Your Honours, this is a brief summary of the witness's statement

 8     and with your leave, I'd just like to put a few more questions to the

 9     witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed as you suggest.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at

12     paragraph 11 of D1218.

13        Q.   Mr. Kenjic, do take a look at paragraph 11 of your statement now.

14     Among other things, you say in the last sentence on that page, in the

15     B/C/S version:  "As far as I can remember we headed for Serbia in a

16     civilian Ford Taunus that did not have any special communications

17     equipment."

18             Please, to the best of your recollection, could you tell us which

19     vehicles you drove during the war as you were driving or escorts

20     General Mladic and, in particular, I'm asking you whether you can recall

21     whether these vehicles had any kind of communications equipment.

22        A.   I can say that we had several vehicles.  For the most part, we

23     used the Puch which is a military vehicle.  We also have other vehicles.

24     It was only in that Puch vehicle that there was a radio transmitter that

25     we practically never used.

Page 38637

 1             As for other vehicles, there was no such equipment.

 2        Q.   In this civilian vehicle, the Ford Taunus that you refer to here

 3     as being the vehicle that you took to Belgrade on that occasion, did that

 4     vehicle have any kind of communications system or equipment?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  You say also in paragraph 11, a bit before that, you

 7     say:  "Sometime around noon on the day I returned, I was given a task to

 8     take General Mladic to Serbia because, as he personally told me during

 9     the trip, he was not able to go there by helicopter."

10             Please, if you can, in view of this sentence that you have before

11     you, he took the helicopter, he started the trip on a helicopter but had

12     to land because of the fog and return to Crna Rijeka by hitch-hiking, did

13     General Mladic explain any of this to you in detail?  Why he was asking

14     you to drive him?  Why he couldn't take the helicopter?  Did he tell you

15     anything along these lines?

16        A.   Well, yes.  When we set out, he told me that he had first started

17     his trip by helicopter and then he returned because he couldn't fly

18     because of the fog and I think he said that he to hitch-hike and he was

19     in a hurry because Milosevic had asked him to come to a meeting.

20        Q.   I did not quite understand what you said.  Who was it that

21     invited him to a meeting?

22        A.   Well, I don't know.  I think that he said that the president,

23     President Milosevic asked him to come to a meeting.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, listening to the witness I thought,

25     haven't I read that?  Last question is entirely in the -- who told him,

Page 38638

 1     helicopter, even the word "hitch-hiking" apparently is --

 2             What's the reason to again put the same questions to which the

 3     witness has attested already?  Would you refrain from being repetitious.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   During the trip, did you stop anywhere?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Tell us, to the best of your recollection, which road did you

 9     take from Han Pijesak to Belgrade?

10        A.   The usual road we took when we went there when it was necessary.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can no longer hear the

12     witness.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please come closer to the

14     microphone again because the interpreters have difficulties hearing you.

15     If you would just sit upright rather than leaning back, that would

16     assist.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   I see that the transcript does not reflect everything you said.

20             Could you slowly state the route you took to Belgrade then.

21        A.   Han Pijesak, Vlasenica, Milici, Zvornik, Sabac, Belgrade.

22        Q.   Can you remember which bridge you crossed in Zvornik when you

23     crossed the border?

24        A.   Karakaj.

25        Q.   Let us please look at paragraph 12 of your statement now.  This

Page 38639

 1     is what you say there in the second sentence so I'm talking about that

 2     first day in Belgrade.

 3             Milosevic, Andricev Venac and Dobanovci and then you say, that

 4     evening, late that evening we drove General Mladic home ..."

 5             Do tell us if you remember what time that could have been when

 6     you say:  "Late that evening we drove General Mladic home"?

 7        A.   Well, in the evening.  Now what time it was, I cannot say that

 8     precisely.  Well, really it was very late.  10.00, 11.00.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kenjic, thank you for these answers.  Thank you for your

10     assistance.  Those are the questions that we had for you at this moment.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a question for clarification.

12             What date was this?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we arrived Belgrade.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What was the date when you drove Mr. Milosevic in

15     the evening at 10.00 -- sorry.  When you drove Mr. Mladic from a meeting

16     with Mr. Milosevic at 10.00 in the evening?  When you drove him back

17     home.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was the 14th.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

21             Mr. McCloskey, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kenjic, you will now be cross-examined by

24     Mr. McCloskey.  You find Mr. McCloskey to your right.  Mr. McCloskey is

25     counsel for the Prosecution.

Page 38640

 1             Please proceed.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 3        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kenjic.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   In your statement that counsel just showed you, it's -- we see

 6     that it's dated 3 of August 2014.  Can you tell us who wrote up that

 7     statement that you signed?

 8        A.   One of the lawyers, I think, Dundjer I think is his name.

 9        Q.   And did have you any additions or subtractions from the first

10     draft that he showed you?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   And were you able to review any prior statements you made to

13     anyone before giving the Defence the statement?

14        A.   I did not understand you.

15        Q.   Okay.  You -- we see your statement is dated 3rd August 2014.  Is

16     that the time that you actually gave the statement to the Defence and

17     signed it?

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   And before making the statement and talking to the Defence in

20     August, on August 3rd, did you have a chance to review anything, any --

21     could have been any document, a diary, a prior statement you made, a

22     prior statement someone else made?  I mean, did you get a chance to do

23     anything to refresh your recollection?

24        A.   Well, the only statement that I gave earlier to OTP investigators

25     was sometime in 2006.

Page 38641

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness speak up a little, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're not only invited to come closer to

 3     the microphone but also to speak a bit louder so that -- otherwise, your

 4     words will be lost which we would try to prevent to happen.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   And did you have a chance to review that interview that you had

 7     in 2006?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And do you recall an interview you had in Sarajevo with the ICTY

10     OTP people.  It was on 16 March 2012 where, unlike the interview with

11     Paul Grady of the OTP in 2006, you actually talked about some of the

12     subjects that you have been talking about today?

13        A.   Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, you changed the language of your

15     question slightly.

16             You said that you have had a chance to review that interview that

17     you gave in 2006.  Could you tell us when did you?  Did you review that

18     recently or before you gave the statement to Mr. Dundjer, or could you

19     tell us when you reviewed that?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, a day or two before.  I

21     didn't have the opportunity before.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You say "a day or two before."

23             What?  Before today?  Or before you gave that statement to

24     Mr. Dundjer?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I only saw it yesterday.  That

Page 38642

 1     first statement that I gave in 2006.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You did not see that or read that prior to your

 3     interview with Mr. Dundjer?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Please proceed.  Mr. McCloskey [Microphone not activated]

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   And --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  [Microphone not activated] but I have to switch on

10     my microphone if I speak; it's unfortunately necessary.

11             I invited you to proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   And, Mr. Kenjic, I take it you do also remember the interview in

14     Sarajevo with the OTP on -- in March 2012?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And so -- we have a problem [Microphone not activated]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I notice it was only Mr. McCloskey's microphone that

18     I could see was open.  I now open mine.  I close it again and see whether

19     Mr. McCloskey's words will now reach the interpreters and then whether

20     the words of the interpreters would reach us.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

22        Q.   So were you able to see a transcript of your March 2012 OTP

23     interview before coming to court today?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And on your statement to the Defence of 3 August 2014, were you

Page 38643

 1     shown your OTP statement of March 2012 before giving that statement to

 2     the Defence?

 3        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you're asking.  You're asking

 4     me about the first statement or the second one?  I've seen both of them.

 5        Q.   Focussing now on your statement to the Defence, we have thus far

 6     one statement, only one statement that you've given to the Defence.  It's

 7     dated, as you've said, 3 August 2014.  I'd like to know if you saw your

 8     OTP interview statement prior to giving your August 2013 [sic] statement

 9     to the Defence.  2014, I'm sorry.

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   And prior to your 16 March 2012 interview with the OTP in

12     Sarajevo, had the Defence team of General Mladic spoken to you?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So how many days before the OTP interview in Sarajevo on

15     16 March did you speak with the Mladic Defence?

16        A.   I cannot remember.  I cannot remember how many days.

17        Q.   Just roughly.

18        A.   Two, three, five, seven, I really don't know.

19        Q.   And who was that, that you spoke to, or that spoke to you?

20        A.   Dundjer.

21        Q.   And was Dundjer able to tell you a little bit about the

22     information he would be asking you about?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Well, he must have told you something about what he was asking

25     you about.

Page 38644

 1        A.   Maybe he told me, but I don't remember that.

 2        Q.   And --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, do you understand the English

 4     language?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you take off your earphones for a second.

 7     Yes.

 8             Mr. McCloskey, I'm a bit confused.  I think that we were talking

 9     now about Mr. Dundjer meeting with the witness before his OTP interview

10     and you ask him what Mr. Dundjer said he would ask.

11             Now that may be confusing, because usually you ask questions

12     during an interview but it has not established there was an interview but

13     just that they spoke a couple of days before the OTP interview.

14             Now, of course, in the OTP interview I take it questions were put

15     to him.  So there may be some confusion as to questions being asked were

16     you hinting at, whether Mr. Dundjer told what questions the OTP would ask

17     him, or what questions he would ask him, although he would not interview

18     him in the coming days.

19             So I'm -- if I'm -- if the witness is as confused as I am, then

20     please try to do something about it.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Mr. Kenjic, when you -- did you actually see Mr. Dundjer in

23     person in those few days prior to giving an OTP interview?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Where did you meet with him?

Page 38645

 1        A.   [No interpretation]

 2        Q.   Where in Beograd?

 3        A.   At the office, the law firm.

 4        Q.   And what did Mr. Dundjer say to you?  What was the first thing he

 5     said to you about what this was all about?

 6        A.   Well, I can't remember what he said to me first.  We talked,

 7     including about my coming here and my testimony, where I had been, what I

 8     had been doing, et cetera.

 9        Q.   And was he able to provide you a little information about

10     General Mladic and -- and where he was and what he'd been doing?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   But you spoke about where Mladic was during the period of 14, 15,

13     16 July with Mr. Dundjer that day.

14        A.   Yes, we discussed that.

15        Q.   Was there anybody else in the room with you and Mr. Dundjer

16     during this discussion?

17        A.   Believe me, I don't know.  It's possible that there were people

18     in other offices.

19        Q.   Okay.  And getting into that 1995 time-frame, who was Mladic's

20     other main driver?  I think --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, if you would allow me to seek

22     clarification.

23             You told us that you met Mr. Dundjer in Belgrade a couple of

24     days - three, four, five, six, seven days - before you were interviewed

25     in Sarajevo.  Is that correctly understood?

Page 38646

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now who took the initiative for that meeting?  Did

 3     you call Mr. Dundjer?  Did Mr. Dundjer call you?  What happened that you

 4     met him?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Dundjer called me.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And apart from talking about the whereabouts

 7     of Mr. Mladic, was Mr. Dundjer already aware that you would be

 8     interviewed a couple of days later in Sarajevo?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10             JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] Yes.  It's -- therefore,

11     is it pure coincidence that you happened to meet him just a couple of

12     days you had this interview in Sarajevo in 2012?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you tell him that you were invited for an

15     interview?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in his office.  I told him

17     that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   Sir, to be fair, if you really think about it, you don't really

21     know what Mr. Dundjer knew whether or not you were going to be

22     interviewed by the OTP, do you?

23        A.   I cannot remember that now.

24        Q.   The only way you would have known what was in his head on that

25     particular point would have been if he'd told you.

Page 38647

 1             In any event, I'll go on.

 2             In your statement, you told us who the other main driver for

 3     Mladic was in 1995.  Can you remind us who that was?

 4        A.   Gojko Crnjak.

 5        Q.   And he had been Mladic's driver throughout the war, had he not

 6     been?

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 8        Q.   And you had been -- you started driving regularly for

 9     General Mladic, what, in 1993?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   All right.  You've talked about the route you took on the 14th of

12     July, after General Mladic wasn't able to get to Belgrade via helicopter

13     and you finally left from Crna Rijeka.  I want to show you a map of a

14     couple of possible routes that we've picked out and see if you can

15     identify if you took any of these routes.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 65 ter 33062.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  While this comes up, I would like to clarify one

18     matter.

19             Mr. McCloskey just asked you if you started driving regularly for

20     General Mladic in 1993 and you said yes.  In your statement, paragraph 2,

21     you said this would start as of 18 May 1992.

22             Which of the two is correct?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both are correct.  Both are

24     correct.  Because, in 1992, we travelled with two vehicles, two Puchs.  I

25     drove the escort, and the other one drove the boss.  In 1993, that

Page 38648

 1     changed.  I drove the general, and Gojko drove the others.  It didn't

 2     really matter which one did which.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that clarification.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Maybe we can --

 5        Q.   This, sir, is a map that we got from the Zvornik Brigade but to

 6     tell you that we added the yellow highlighting and we added the red

 7     highlighting that is noted as Route B.  And if we could blow that up a

 8     bit more so hopefully you may be able to recognise ...

 9             In the bottom of the picture, we have -- let's blow up the bottom

10     of the picture so we can see what city that is.  Okay.

11             So we see Han Pijesak there.  And we see where the red and the

12     yellow lines start.  Is -- where the red and yellow lines start is that

13     the approximate location of the Crna Rijeka headquarters of the VRS

14     Main Staff?

15             We can blow it up again if it will help.

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   Okay.  We see that it's right near this mountain called

18     Veliki Zep.  All right.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's pan back so we that we can get a better

20     picture of the route again.  And -- yeah.  Thank you.

21        Q.   Now we see the yellow route noted as Route A and the Route B is

22     in red.  And Route A goes through Vlasenica, Route B goes through

23     Sekovici.  You've said that -- you've testified that you took the regular

24     route.  Now, as you sit here now, do you remember which route you

25     actually took, not just which route you normally took.  But on that day,

Page 38649

 1     the afternoon of 14 July 1995, are you sure which route you took?

 2        A.   Quite.

 3        Q.   Which one, if any of these?

 4        A.   Vlasenica, Milici, Zvornik, Karakaj, Sabac, Belgrade.

 5        Q.   Okay.  That would be the yellow route, Route A?  And let's drop

 6     it down a little bit so we can get a little better picture of it.  I'm

 7     sorry, let's blow it up a bit so we can start where the two routes verge

 8     from each other.

 9        A.   I told you clearly which route we took.  I don't need to look at

10     the map.

11        Q.   Well, that's just for our record so we're sure.  So it's Route A.

12     We see the route that goes up next to the Drina river and goes up past

13     Zvornik to Karakaj?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your answer, please.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  That's it.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Could we zoom in a bit more just to maybe

17     get that blue arrow as it crosses Route A, the yellow route?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, just to go back a few lines.  You

19     said the one was the route through Vlasenica, the other was the route

20     through --

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sekovici.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Sekovici.  Is it true that it's in Vlasenica that

23     the both split up and that the one goes through Milica and isn't it

24     exactly -- and I'm trying to look at map and the word Han Pijesak we go

25     to the north and there were -- what's the city?  I read to the extent

Page 38650

 1     possible under red and yellow, Vlasenica, isn't it where they split up?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So both routes go through Vlasenica.  The one,

 4     however, continues Sekovici and the other one, Milici.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Absolutely.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Because you said one was Vlasenica and the other was

 7     Sekovici but that's apparently not what you meant.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, that's -- thank you for clearing that up.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   So if we focus a bit on that blue arrow and without having to

12     really read the map, that arrow is in the area between Nova Kasaba and

13     Konjevic Polje.  And were you aware at the time that on the 13th and 14th

14     of July, large numbers of Muslim soldiers and civilians were fleeing the

15     Srebrenica enclave and had crossed that road and were still in those

16     woods all around that area where you're driving?

17        A.   No, I didn't know that.

18        Q.   Weren't you stopped at a check-point outside Nova Kasaba by the

19     65th Military Protection Regiment?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   As you drove past the Nova Kasaba area, did you see any large

22     pits being dug near the side of the road?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   When you got to Konjevic Polje, were you stopped at a MUP or army

25     check-point, or any check-point?

Page 38651

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   And when you were at Konjevic Polje, about how far were you from

 3     Kravica?

 4        A.   I don't understand that.  What do you mean?  As far as I know,

 5     Kravica is not on that road.

 6        Q.   Well, if you turn right and go towards Bratunac, it's about 9

 7     kilometres from Konjevic Polje to Kravica, isn't it?

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   At the time that you were in Konjevic Polje with General Mladic,

10     did you have any information -- or did you hear any information that

11     there were hundreds and hundreds of dead and dying Muslims at the Kravica

12     warehouse at that time?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   And you drove northward along the road near the Drina.  You went

15     by the Jadar river, did you not?

16        A.   Jadar sounds familiar, but I don't know where that is.

17        Q.   So I take it you didn't hear about any executions of 16 people,

18     right near the road that you had driven by, that happened the day before,

19     on the banks of the Jadar river?

20        A.   No, no.

21        Q.   And when you continued north that afternoon of the 14th and went

22     by Zvornik, you actually drove right by the Zvornik Brigade headquarters

23     in Karakaj, did you not?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Well, you drove by it, you didn't stop, I take it -- well, let me

Page 38652

 1     ask you.  Did you drive by the headquarters or did you stop at the

 2     headquarters?

 3        A.   Oh, yes, yes.  We passed by.  We didn't stop.

 4        Q.   And when got to Karakaj, did you know that within about 8

 5     kilometres to the east of Karakaj was a place called Orahovac where about

 6     1.000 prisoners were in a school and were in the process of being

 7     murdered?  Did you hear information about that when you were in Karakaj

 8     on the afternoon of 14 July?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   So did you have any information about the other prisoners,

11     roughly 800 to 1.000, at the nearby Petkovci school, the nearby Rocevic

12     school, the Pilica cultural centre and the Kula school?  Did you hear

13     about any of those thousands of prisoners that were in those schools at

14     the time that you're driving by that area?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Let's go back so we see a bit more of the map.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, I'm looking not at the map but at the

18     clock.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I -- yes, we should break.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to see you

21     back after 20 minutes, Mr. Kenjic.  You may follow the usher.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

Page 38653

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Mr. Kenjic, just on this map, we can make out Karakaj.  It's not

 6     real clear but it is where the yellow and red routes meet, right near the

 7     Drina river.  Is that where you crossed over on the bridge from Karakaj

 8     over to Serbia?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And just lastly on this topic, when you were driving with

11     General Mladic from Konjevic Polje through to Karakaj on the 14th of

12     July, did you -- the Trial Chamber has heard the evidence that there were

13     a very large number of buses and trucks and a large convoy taking

14     thousands of Muslim men from Srebrenica along that route on the morning

15     an afternoon hours of 14th July.  Did you see any buses or trucks as you

16     drove that very same route that very same day?

17        A.   I didn't notice any kind of commotion on the road.  It was as

18     usual.

19        Q.   So you -- I didn't ask you about commotion, did you see any buses

20     or trucks with filled, with --

21        A.   No, no.  No.

22        Q.   All right.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this map, 33062, into evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33062 receives exhibit number

Page 38654

 1     P7531, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P7531 is admitted.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   Now let's go to 16 July.  Let's look at your statement, D1218.  I

 5     want to just take a quick look at paragraph 13, which should be on page 4

 6     in the English and 4 in the B/C/S, and I just want to note that what you

 7     say in the middle of that paragraph and I quote:  "I took the general and

 8     his wife home so that he could change and then I took them to the

 9     Military Medical Academy."

10             And we can see from that paragraph that you're taking them home

11     after the wedding festivity, you don't give any particular time for that.

12             So let's look at your statement to the OTP on 16 March 2012, and

13     that is 65 ter 32932.  Should be English page 21, B/C/S page 30.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should perhaps ask the witness first if he

15     remembers the time.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   Do you have any recollection of about what time it was when you

18     drove General Mladic and his wife from the restaurant festivities

19     associated with the wedding to the apartment so they could change?

20        A.   Around 6.00 in the afternoon.

21        Q.   All right.  Let's look at your statement.  You say that, near the

22     bottom of the English, you're asked how long they stayed at the party and

23     you say:  "A long, long time."

24             And then you were asked:  "Did somebody from the wedding party

25     bring out a drink for you?"

Page 38655

 1             And you said:  "There was beer and coffee and cake, yes."

 2             Then you were asked:  "Do you remember what time it was when you

 3     drove General Mladic to the next location?"

 4             And you say:

 5             "I didn't drive him anywhere else.  I drove him home afterwards

 6     in the afternoon.  I don't know what time it was.  It might have been

 7     3.00 or 4.00, as long as the lunch ceremony lasted.  I don't know how

 8     long it lasted."

 9             Now you just answered 6.00.  That's obviously --

10        A.   Well, all right.  I said it just like that, sort of afternoon,

11     6.00, 5.00.

12        Q.   You told the OTP 3.00 to 4.00.  Now that you're testifying here,

13     you're saying 6.00 and maybe 5.00.  So you have been influenced between

14     the time I told the OTP, 3.00 to 4.00 and what you're saying now, haven't

15     you?  Your recollection has been influenced in some way.

16        A.   Oh, no.

17        Q.   All right.  Let's -- in paragraph 8 of your Defence statement,

18     D1218, you say that General Mladic would sometimes arrive in Serbia by

19     helicopter and that you would arrive by car and sometimes return him by

20     car, vice versa.

21             And there were times when General Mladic would arrive in Zvornik

22     and you would go pick him up by car?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And where would he land his helicopter in Zvornik?

25        A.   It didn't happen very often.  That was during the ban on flights

Page 38656

 1     by NATO.  He would come --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear where.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and that would be it.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   We weren't able -- the interpreters weren't able to make out

 6     where Mladic would actually land the helicopter during the NATO

 7     flight-ban time.

 8        A.   Drinjaca.  It's this place towards Zvornik.  There was a village

 9     stadium there on the river bank.

10        Q.   Yes, that football pitch on the riverbank.  That was near

11     Milan Jolovic's apartment, Legenda's place, wasn't it?

12        A.   That I don't know.

13        Q.   And in July 1995, was there a no-fly NATO ban for flying in

14     Republika Srpska?

15        A.   I don't know whether there was a ban.  Probably.

16        Q.   And there was not a ban flying across Serbia at that time, was

17     there?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

19     come closer to the microphone and speak up.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You're invited to come closer to the microphone and

21     to speak up.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   And so there wasn't a ban in -- a flight ban in Serbia in

25     July 1995, was there?

Page 38657

 1        A.   How could I know that?

 2        Q.   Well, you were driving the general of the VRS across Serbia,

 3     across the RS.  That's why you would know, isn't it?  Isn't that a good

 4     enough reason?

 5        A.   I didn't drive a helicopter.  I drove a automobile.

 6        Q.   What was the name of Mladic's main helicopter pilot?  You've told

 7     us this before.

 8        A.   I don't know the name, but it's Mara.

 9        Q.   It's Maran or Mara?

10        A.   Maran.

11        Q.   And that's Dusan Maran; correct?

12        A.   Possibly, yes.

13        Q.   And what did General Mladic call him?

14        A.   Well, believe me, I don't know.  Now did he call him Maran or

15     Dule, I don't know.

16        Q.   Well, go back in the war years.  He called him Dule, didn't he?

17     His nickname, a classic nickname for Dusan.

18        A.   Possibly.

19        Q.   Let's go to 65 ter 33060.  This is an OTP interview of

20     Mr. Crnjak, the other driver.  Let's go page 16 in English, pages 22 and

21     23 in the B/C/S.  Should be about the middle of the page.

22             And we can see there were -- on that page they're talking about

23     pilot and Mr. Blaszczyk asked:  "Do you remember the pilot's name?"

24             And Crnjak says:  "Dule, Maran, I think, yes."

25             And then Mr. Blaszczyk says:  "Could Dule be Dusan?"

Page 38658

 1             And he says:  "I don't know, something like that?"

 2             Does that help refresh your recollection that your fellow driver

 3     remembered Dule?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 65 ter 32931.  This is an interview of

 6     Dusan Maran.  Page 9 in the English; page 9 in the B/C/S.  And down at

 7     the bottom of the page, Mr. Maran in answer to a question says:

 8     "Sometimes I would not even see him, but his escort would come, or

 9     sometimes [sic] else from the staff" -- excuse me, "... someone else from

10     the staff whom I knew, whom I had met or seen to tell me:  Dule, go

11     to ... point A, pick up three passengers, or go get the wounded and take

12     him to another hospital."

13             So, this would be Mr. Maran referring to himself as Dule, would

14     it not?

15        A.   How could I know that?

16        Q.   Well, that's what it is.  Does that help refresh your

17     recollection as to his nickname?

18        A.   It doesn't mean a thing to me.

19        Q.   All right.  Let's go to Exhibit P1656.  This is a ...

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Not to be broadcast.

21        Q.   And, sir, this is an intercepted conversation where the Muslim

22     security services have provided an intercept between General Mladic and

23     someone called Dule, and it is dated 16 July at 0830 hours in the

24     morning.  And Dule says:  "It's Dule."

25             Mladic says:  "I'll see you tonight, Dule."

Page 38659

 1             Dule says:  "Fine."

 2             Mladic says:  "Bye."

 3             So you were with General Mladic for some time on the 16th of

 4     July, including in the evening, in Belgrade.  Are you aware of

 5     General Mladic meeting anyone named Dule the night of 16 July in

 6     Belgrade?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Did you now of him meeting Mladic, a Dule Maran meeting Mladic in

 9     Zvornik or Belgrade on the 16th, on the evening?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   And did you ever travel in a helicopter with General Mladic?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did you get into a helicopter on the night of the 16th at the

14     heli-pad at the VMA and go with General Mladic to Zvornik, to the pitch

15     near Zvornik and then drive him to Crna Rijeka?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Okay.  One last reference to the interview of Mr. Crnjak, the

18     other driver, 65 ter 33060.  Should be pages 13 and 14 in English; 18 and

19     19 in the B/C/S.

20             And Mr. Blaszczyk again, asking Mr. Crnjak:  "Did you ever get

21     the opportunity to travel with him to Belgrade by helicopter?"

22             Meaning General Mladic.

23             And Crnjak said:  "Yes, I did."

24             Blaszczyk says:  "Where?  Later on, you drove another vehicle as

25     a driver?"

Page 38660

 1             And Crnjak says:  "Yes."

 2             And then Erin Gallagher says:  "So you travelled with him by

 3     helicopter."

 4             And Crnjak says:  "Yes, several times."

 5             So Crnjak, a regular driver like yourself, acknowledges that he

 6     travels several times with General Mladic in helicopter.  How so that you

 7     say that you never travelled with him by helicopter?

 8        A.   Never.  Really, never.  If you understood what I said.  Really,

 9     never.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have nothing further, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to take you back to the day when you

15     escorted or drove Mr. Mladic to the church where the wedding took place.

16             Where did you meet Mr. Mladic after the wedding next?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I picked him up in front of

18     the restaurant.  That same day, when that wedding took place.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How far was the restaurant away from the church?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, but, believe me, they

21     went on foot, so I assume that it's not very far away from the church to

22     the restaurant.  They walked and I followed them in the car.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you followed them by the car, you should be

24     able to give us an approximate distance.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let's say, 500 metres.  Maybe

Page 38661

 1     a bit more; maybe a bit less.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I would also have a question for you.

 4             Let me just first check on the transcript.

 5             Yes, you said today that on any other vehicle than the Puch there

 6     was no equipment, and you specified no radio equipment and you specified

 7     that that was true for the Ford Taunus as well.

 8             In your statement, I read - and perhaps we could have it on our

 9     screen, D1218, paragraph 11; I think with the cover page, it's the third

10     page.

11             Could we have the B/C/S version as well.

12             Yes, there you say:  "As far as I remember, we headed for Serbia

13     in a civilian Ford Taunus that did not have any special communications

14     equipment ..."

15             Did it have any communications equipment, any normal

16     communications equipment.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, none.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  What could you explain why you used the wording

19     "special communications equipment"?  Because if there's none at all why

20     would you say there was no special equipment?  Why wouldn't you say there

21     was no communications equipment?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I really don't know why I put

23     it that way, but I know that we did not have any kind of communications

24     in these cars, or in that car, except in the Puch.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You say in your statement, as far as you remember,

Page 38662

 1     you apparently are not sure about it.  Is that well understood.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Quite.  I assert that there was no

 3     communication that we had in that car.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You did not correct that when you reviewed your

 5     statement by saying, It's not whether I remember or not, but it's just a

 6     firm fact that I state about?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, possibly.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Possibly what?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that, that I didn't change

10     that in my statement.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You didn't change anything in your statement, and

12     the first draft stayed as it was when it was presented to you?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't think I would have

14     changed anything except for all this that I said in that statement.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it on the day of the statement, the interview is

16     on the 3rd of August.  Was -- on that same day, was the first draft

17     presented to you?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  When was it -- how long after the interview was the

20     draft statement given to you for review?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean this version, this

22     statement that I gave to the lawyer?  I only saw it yesterday, the day

23     before yesterday.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But you signed it last year, didn't you?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

Page 38663

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, my question was:  Was it on the same day that

 2     you were interviewed that you were given the draft statement for review

 3     after which you said nothing has to be changed?  Was it the same day or

 4     was it another day?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it was on the same day.  I

 6     signed it on the same day.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And was it -- was there a pause between your

 8     interview and their preparing the statement.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot remember if there

10     had been a break or not.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any recollection as to how they wrote

12     this down?  You say, I don't know whether there was a break.  Or was

13     there already a draft prepared at the beginning of the interview and that

14     you went through that and then signed it?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He put questions to me, I answered,

16     and I suppose that's the way they formulated it.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But what was written on paper, do you have any

18     recollection as whether they had prepared something already or whether

19     they took the time after the interview, whether there was -- how did this

20     happen?  Or did they write it down during the interview, or was it

21     immediately given to you for signature or first for review?

22             Could you tell us a bit more what you remember from that

23     interview in this respect?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We talked, and when we finished

25     that conversation, then they put it down on paper.  I signed it.  And

Page 38664

 1     that was it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You were present when they put it down on paper?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I was there.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  How long did that take approximately?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot remember.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in re-examination?

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions for

 9     this witness.

10             I just want to thank Mr. Kenjic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kenjic, this concludes your testimony in this

12     court because the Defence has no further questions for you, and,

13     therefore, there's no room for Mr. McCloskey to put any further questions

14     to you.

15             I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to

16     The Hague and for answering all the questions that were put to you, put

17     to you by the parties, put to you by the Bench.  I wish you a safe return

18     home again.

19             You may follow the usher.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, do I understand that there are no

24     witnesses available for the remainder of this week?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, you understand correctly.  This is the second

Page 38665

 1     week, we had the same problem with the same witness, and we will -- we

 2     are not going to call that witness in the future.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You are not going to the call the witness.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... VWS that he does not feel

 5     well and that he cannot testify in this case.  So we cannot call him.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, I leave it to you whether you

 7     consider that he is unable to come or not.  But you remove --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Our decision is final.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Your decision is final.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are removing him from the list.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat his name.  He's not protected, is

12     he?

13             MR. LUKIC:  He is not protected.  His name is Mr. Kesar Ostoja

14     [phoen].

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Kesar, and that's hereby put on the record,

16     is removed with our leave from the 65 ter list.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we have still some time left.  I'd like to use

19     that deal with a few procedural matters before we adjourn and that would

20     be an adjournment until Monday, because your next witness is available

21     to ...

22             MR. LUKIC:  Our next witness is available on Monday.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I ...

24             Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  Also to let you know, I've

Page 38666

 1     spoken with Mr. Lukic about an another -- we can call it a procedural

 2     matter.  It was a question you had of us back in March regarding the

 3     Pelemisi testimony and Mr. Pelemis and I can, of course, try to take us

 4     through that.  We've been able to answer some of your questions and

 5     discuss that a bit with the Defence.  If you would like, we can do that

 6     in open court or in some other manner.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would it ...

 8             MR. LUKIC:  If Mr. McCloskey just mentions the exhibit number, we

 9     would withdraw our objection.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, I best help refresh everyone's recollection

11     if you want to go through that so we can -- because it's a little more

12     complicated than that but I do appreciate the withdrawal but I'm not sure

13     any of us will remember what we are talking about.  It took me a while to

14     figure this out.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  To be quite honest, I have got no idea

16     Mr. McCloskey.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Exactly.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And perhaps I should be ashamed to admit it.  But it

19     is for a fact.

20             Perhaps I do understand that you fear that Mr. Lukic has no idea

21     either about.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  He actually does.  We were able to have some

23     coffee over it and he has obviously come to some conclusion and I hope if

24     all a bit vague we can then present you with documents and transcripts

25     and all that --

Page 38667

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Would it be good -- would it be a good idea

 2     that you briefly - apparently you have discussed the matter - that you

 3     set out, both parties together, what exactly the issue was and what now

 4     the results are.  We read that and then put on the record whatever has to

 5     be put on the record.  Is that brief introduction in writing informal

 6     submission?

 7             Is that something, Mr. McCloskey?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm not sure I understand.  You want us to make a

 9     verbal informal discussion or paper?  We're fine with --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's a matter of a few minutes then let's deal

11     with it in open court.  If it takes more time we'd rather have an

12     informal introduction.  Or just we are referring to this-and-this issue

13     and then we'll find out and then we'll hear what the result is.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If I can take probably a minute to set the scene

15     for you and you probably then either want to say, enough, send me paper

16     or no, we're beginning to remember.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  One minute is a fair offer, isn't it, Mr. Lukic.

18             One minute you have, Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

20             Mr. Pelemis was testifying about the events in 1992 related to

21     Pelemisi.  I had an UN report, it was 65 ter 11377, a commission of

22     expert report that had a section about Kladanj.  We were talking about

23     some sexual assaults that happened in this little village of Pelemisi.

24             When I read that section of the expert report referring to sexual

25     assault allegations, it was clear that there was footnoted, this

Page 38668

 1     paragraph in the report was footnoted, and you had asked what the

 2     footnotes were, and so we have, for the last several months, been trying

 3     to sort out what those footnotes were and we finally figured it out, and

 4     we have about two pages of the material that the footnote is based upon.

 5             Now I offered the little section on Kladanj of the expert report

 6     into evidence, and Mr. Lukic objected to that, and then we all agreed

 7     that it would be best before you made a decision on that section to be

 8     able to get an idea of what the footnotes were about.  So I now have two

 9     pages that are reference to the footnote which I gave to Mr. Lukic

10     yesterday and naturally we would like to give you the fullest picture

11     possible, the two or three pages of footnotes as well as the section, the

12     small paragraph on Kladanj.  I believe Mr. Lukic has agreed that the

13     small section on Kladanj referring to the sexual assaults can come into

14     evidence.  My guess is he might have something else to say about the

15     footnotes.  And since, Your Honour, you asked about the footnotes we have

16     them, of course, for the Chamber.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  We would leave Your Honours to decide whether

19     footnotes should be included or not.  But [Overlapping speakers] ...

20             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

21             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... we are not objecting to

22     that small Kladanj portion from the expert report.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you object to have the footnotes, if tendered,

24     to be admitted?  The footnote material.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I leave it to you.

Page 38669

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, is it that you wish to tender the

 2     footnote material?  We haven't seen it so I've got no idea at this

 3     moment.  You said that there's two pages?

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  What we have is a little packet that shows

 5     the first page of the UN report that will help us maybe remember what the

 6     report is from.  The table of contents, you get an idea of what the

 7     report is about.  The paragraph on Kladanj, just the one page and then

 8     the two -- actually three pages of footnotes and the reference, so that

 9     we can see the footnote.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest the following.  If you upload this - I

11     don't know whether it's uploaded already as a 65 ter - and you tender

12     that package as a whole and there's no objection from the Defence, if I

13     understand Mr. Lukic well.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it would be 65 ter number -- you may have

16     mentioned it already.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 11377a now because it has the complete

18     packet for you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's marked for identification.  We'll have a look

20     at it and then decide on admission.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And it was from transcript 33830 back in March.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That certainly will help us in preparing our

23     decision on admission.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could you already assign the number

Page 38670

 1     for 11377a.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  This receives exhibit number P7532, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And it's 7532 that is marked for

 4     identification.  And we'll, in due course decide on admission.

 5             Having dealt with that, I will deal with a few other procedural

 6     matters.

 7             First, remaining issue from the testimony of Tomislav Savkic.

 8             During his testimony on the 22nd of October of last year, 2014,

 9     D705, a notebook entry allegedly written by Izet Redzic was marked for

10     identification following the Prosecution's objection to its admission on

11     the grounds that Savkic could not confirm whether he ever saw the

12     original of the document or whether it had been added to later on.

13             I refer to transcript pages 27140, 41 and 149, 50.

14             On the 22nd of October of that same year, the Prosecution further

15     disputed the authenticity of the date on the document and the document's

16     probative value.  Transcript page 27211.  The Chamber also invited the

17     parties to agree on the text of illegible parts of the document and

18     that's two and three pages further down in the transcript.

19             In an e-mail dated the 10th of December of 2014 that the

20     handwritten number at the top of the document reads 12 instead of 16.

21     The Defence informed the Chamber in an e-mail on the 11th of February,

22     2015 that a revised English translation had been uploaded into e-court

23     under doc ID 1D19-1247, but that remaining legibility issues needed to be

24     resolved with the Prosecution.  According to the Prosecution, it provided

25     the Defence with another revised English translation on the 20th of

Page 38671

 1     March of 2015.  The Chamber has sent ten e-mails since December 2014

 2     regarding the parties' progress.

 3             On 29th of June and 3rd of August of this year, the Chamber asked

 4     whether the revised English translation from the 20th of March, 2015 had

 5     been uploaded into e-court and what its doc ID was.

 6             On the 3rd of August, the Prosecution responded that it had not

 7     uploaded the translation.  The Defence has not responded.

 8             The Chamber denies the admission of D705 without prejudice.

 9             I now will deal with the remaining issue from the testimony of

10     Mladen Blagojevic.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, if I just may.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Please.  If the Prosecution sends something for

14     translation we cannot upload it.  And if it's not our fault that it's not

15     uploaded, only the Prosecution can upload it if they send it for

16     translation.  There must be some reason why they send it for translation.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you have not --

18             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... I don't know it by heart

19     now.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's without prejudice if you do not respond

21     to such a request whether it's uploaded or not because it was your

22     document.  If the translation is not there, I would have expected you to

23     inform the Chamber that you did not receive a proper translation and that

24     was the reason why you couldn't upload it and then we might have decided

25     differently.  But it's without prejudice.  The ruling is there.  You may

Page 38672

 1     revisit the matter --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if you consider that wise.

 4             And, at this moment, I'll not pay further attention to whether

 5     the Prosecution should have provided another translation to the Defence.

 6     I leave that apart from this moment.  But that's why we invite parties to

 7     make submissions, Mr. Lukic, that we are fully informed and not informed

 8     after we have ruled on a matter.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  We saw recently, Your Honour, that we have a problem

10     with following all those e-mails and we have already suffered grave

11     consequences in regard of some of the rulings.  So it is really hard for

12     the Defence to follow everything that comes through e-mails to us.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  These are usually reminders of what was dealt

14     with in court.  Let's not forget that.  And, second, if there's any

15     problem there, if you need more time, then you can always ask for it.

16     Whether we give it or not is another matter but that's the appropriate

17     way.  And perhaps you should have someone who closely follows whatever

18     requests are sent by the Chamber.

19             MR. LUKIC:  The problem is we have no one.  That's the problem.

20     We don't have enough people.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to keep track of that would take me --

22             MR. LUKIC:  If it's the only thing it would be easy for us but we

23     have so much to do so we really have a problem with this.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I would give priority at least of what the Chamber

25     asks for information.

Page 38673

 1             Let's not discuss it at this moment.

 2             I move on to the remaining issues from the testimony of

 3     Mladen Blagojevic.

 4             On the 5th of March of this year, during the testimony of

 5     Mladen Blagojevic, Exhibit P7187 was reserved for an extract of the first

 6     video of an interview with the witness dated the 15th of October, 2004.

 7     This can be found at transcript pages 32662 through 663.

 8             On the 26th of August, the Prosecution notified the Chamber and

 9     the Defence via an e-mail that the parties had agreed on the admission

10     of, one, the entire first video along with its CLSS revised translation

11     which bears Rule 65 ter number 32112a and two, an excerpt of the second

12     video of the interview which bears Rule 65 ter number 32155a.

13             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to attach Rule 65 ter

14     number 32112a to exhibit number P7187 and admits it into evidence.

15             The Chamber further admits Rule 65 ter number 32155a into

16     evidence but, Madam Registrar, would you please assign a number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 32155a receives exhibit number

18     P7533, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

20             I will now deliver the Chamber's decision on a Defence motion to

21     amend its Rule 65 ter witness list.

22             On the 28th of July, 2015, the Defence filed a motion to amend

23     its Rule 65 ter witness list to add one witness.

24             On the 7th of August, the Prosecution filed its response, not

25     objecting to the motion.

Page 38674

 1             The Defence submits that due to medical reasons, the witness was

 2     not identified as a witness in its 19th of May, 2014 Rule 65 ter filing.

 3             Further, the Defence submits that even if this does not amount to

 4     a showing of good cause, it is in the interests of justice to grant the

 5     motion as the witness provides relevant and probative evidence crucial to

 6     the Defence case.

 7             The Chamber recalls and refers to the applicable law regarding

 8     additions to the Defence witness list, as set out in its decision dated

 9     the 12th of August, 2014 on the Defence motion to amend witness list.

10             With regard to the Defence's arguments that good cause exists for

11     not having identified the witness at an earlier stage, the Chamber notes

12     that the medical documentation presented in support of the Defence

13     submission does not substantiate the Defence's claim that this proposed

14     witness could not be interviewed before the filing of the Rule 65 ter

15     witness list.  The Chamber notes that the Rule 65 ter witness list

16     predates the treatment detailed in the medical documentation.  Also, the

17     medical documentation does not include any information about the

18     existence of any medical problems for this witness as at the time of the

19     Rule 65 ter filing.

20             Therefore, the Chamber finds that the Defence has failed to

21     demonstrate good cause for not including this witness on the list.

22     Nonetheless, the Chamber considers the anticipated evidence of this

23     witness as outlined in the motion, to be prima facie relevant and of

24     probative value.

25             Furthermore, the Prosecution did not oppose the addition of this

Page 38675

 1     witness to the Defence's witness list.

 2             In light of the foregoing, the Chamber considers that it is in

 3     the interests of justice to grant the Defence' 28 July 2015 motion and

 4     instructs the Defence to provide the relevant information for this

 5     witness pursuant to Rule 65 ter (G)(i) within ten days of the date of

 6     this decision.

 7             I would briefly like to turn into private session for one

 8     remaining item before we adjourn for the day.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 38676

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             Before we adjourn, Mr. Lukic, I think that we earlier brought to

13     your attention that time lost in the way as we lose it today that the

14     Chamber would consider what the consequences are as far as the time

15     available to present the Defence case.

16             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume Monday, the 7th of

17     September in the morning --

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, Mr. President, but I just realised I

19     need to request that last exhibit, which was P7532, under seal.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We have dealt with it, but it should be under seal?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I apologise.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We marked it for identification, is that the one

23     you're referring to?  I'm bad in numbers, as you ...

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, it was that packet that --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which we discussed.

Page 38677

 1             P7532, marked for identification, is now put under seal.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you so much.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That doesn't change the adjournment.  7th of

 4     September, 9.30 in the morning, this same courtroom, I.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.49 a.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of

 7                           September, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.