1 Wednesday, 2 September 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber received information that, and, of course, we do know
12 that you announced yesterday, Ms. Edgerton, that you'd like to make
13 submissions in relation to the list that was D1216, if I remember well.
14 Please proceed.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 And I must say, after court yesterday, our team met to arrive at
17 a position with respect to D1216, which changes the nature of what I
18 might say to you today, so what I'd like to do is put that position on
19 the record.
20 Now, in fact, our position was referred to yesterday by
21 Mr. Tieger when he spoke with Your Honours and indicating that the
22 Prosecution felt that D1216 was insufficiently reliable for the
23 Trial Chamber to ground any findings on, and that, Your Honour, was
24 confirmed by cross-examination. Confronted with repeated examples of the
25 list's errors and deficiencies, including missing biographical
1 information, the fact that it contains the names of an unknown number of
2 soldier, persons still alive, evidence of Serb perpetrators, the witness
3 yesterday could only repeat that the list was preliminary, he had no idea
4 when it was last updated, and the files needed to be completed, although
5 20 years had elapsed and the commission that was supposed to verify the
6 information never did so and no longer exists.
7 So the list, Your Honours, in the Prosecution's view, doesn't
8 advance the case beyond what's never been at issue as we indicated ...
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please focus very much on
12 MS. EDGERTON: In terms of admissibility, Your Honour, I'm very
13 mindful that the document was admitted because, as I had indicated, an
14 objection was not voiced at the precise time, but the difference between
15 an admitted and unadmitted document is the weight that the Trial Chamber
16 accords to it.
17 So, Your Honours, given our position on the document and in view
18 these factors I've just articulated, what I wanted to advise Your Honours
19 is that we're not going to be seeking the special relief of
20 reconsideration in these circumstances, but we consider that
21 Your Honours --
22 JUDGE ORIE: This is argument rather. If you're not seeking the
23 reconsideration then we have a decision that it was admitted and if you
24 say the difference between an admitted and unadmitted document is the
25 weight that the Trial Chamber accords to it, well, I do not see what
1 weight we could accord to an unadmitted document. To an admitted
2 document, of course, we have to consider what weight to give it - that's
3 what we always do - against the totality of the evidence.
4 Therefore, you're not seeking our reconsideration. You might
5 argue about the probative value when the time is there to do so.
6 Anything else in relation to admission?
7 MS. EDGERTON: No. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
9 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The witness
11 is Mladjen Kenjic.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Kenjic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
16 make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: MLADJEN KENJIC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Kenjic.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you adjust the microphone.
24 Mr. Kenjic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You find
25 Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. I would like to ask you to slowly state for the transcript your
7 name and surname.
8 A. Mladjen Kenjic.
9 Q. Mr. Kenjic, at one point in time, did you give a statement in
10 writing to the Defence of General Mladic?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you please come a bit closer to the
14 microphone and speak clearly.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay. [Interpretation] Will this do?
16 JUDGE ORIE: I have to ask the interpreters because I hear them
17 but they should hear you. And I think they're nodding yes so ... and
18 don't move too far away.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Kenjic, now I'm going to ask you to focus on the screen in
21 front of you.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And could we have 65 ter 1D01766
23 in e-court, please.
24 Q. Can you see the first page of the statement in front of you on
25 the screen? Could you please just tell us --
1 A. On the right-hand side.
2 Q. On the right-hand side. Can you recognise the signature there?
3 A. Yes, it's my signature.
4 Q. Would you please look at the last page of this document as well.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please be assisted.
6 Could the last page of the document be shown to the witness.
7 Q. Witness, sir, do you recognise the signature on this page?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Whose signature is that?
10 A. Mine.
11 Q. Did you enter the date here in your own hand, the 3rd of August,
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Mr. Kenjic, yesterday during the proofing, did you have an
15 opportunity to read your statement once again?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Today, in this courtroom, now that you've taken the solemn
18 declaration to speak the truth, after having read this statement of
19 yours, after you read it yesterday, can you confirm today before this
20 Court that everything contained in it is truthful and that you would
21 answer the same questions identically today?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
24 tender Mr. Kenjic's statement into evidence. 65 ter 1D01766.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D01766 receives exhibit number D1218,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I
6 would like to read a short summary of Witness Mladjen Kenjic's statement.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Mladjen Kenjic, as a
9 military conscript was mobilised on the 2nd of April, 1992 and started
10 working as a driver. As the JNA left from Bosnia-Herzegovina, he was
11 given a new war-time assignment in the Protection Regiment of the VRS as
12 driver of the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS, General Mladic. He
13 assumed that duty in May 1992 and he discharged these duties until 2002.
14 In his statement, he speaks about his specific duties, about the
15 way in which trips were organised, and how General Mladic toured the
16 terrain, about the functioning of the team that escorted General Mladic
17 as he carried out his tasks, about the system of communications that was
18 available, and especially about the way in which they travelled and the
19 route they took, the accommodation they had, and the duration of the trip
20 to Belgrade and back.
21 Further on, he says that from the 13th or 14th of July, 1995, he
22 was at home on leave and upon his return to Crna Rijeka, he remembers
23 that he was given the assignment to drive General Mladic to Belgrade. He
24 states in detail what his specific duties were during those days where he
25 drove him and where he escorted General Mladic, starting with meetings in
1 the building of the Presidency at Andricev Venac, Dobanovci, the wedding
2 where General Mladic was best man, to the military medical academy VMA,
3 and finally the way and time they returned to Crna Rijeka. He asserts
4 that he drove General Mladic to Han Pijesak and Crna Rijeka sometime in
5 the afternoon hours after three nights spent in Belgrade and then he
6 returned to his regular military tasks.
7 Your Honours, this is a brief summary of the witness's statement
8 and with your leave, I'd just like to put a few more questions to the
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed as you suggest.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at
12 paragraph 11 of D1218.
13 Q. Mr. Kenjic, do take a look at paragraph 11 of your statement now.
14 Among other things, you say in the last sentence on that page, in the
15 B/C/S version: "As far as I can remember we headed for Serbia in a
16 civilian Ford Taunus that did not have any special communications
18 Please, to the best of your recollection, could you tell us which
19 vehicles you drove during the war as you were driving or escorts
20 General Mladic and, in particular, I'm asking you whether you can recall
21 whether these vehicles had any kind of communications equipment.
22 A. I can say that we had several vehicles. For the most part, we
23 used the Puch which is a military vehicle. We also have other vehicles.
24 It was only in that Puch vehicle that there was a radio transmitter that
25 we practically never used.
1 As for other vehicles, there was no such equipment.
2 Q. In this civilian vehicle, the Ford Taunus that you refer to here
3 as being the vehicle that you took to Belgrade on that occasion, did that
4 vehicle have any kind of communications system or equipment?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you. You say also in paragraph 11, a bit before that, you
7 say: "Sometime around noon on the day I returned, I was given a task to
8 take General Mladic to Serbia because, as he personally told me during
9 the trip, he was not able to go there by helicopter."
10 Please, if you can, in view of this sentence that you have before
11 you, he took the helicopter, he started the trip on a helicopter but had
12 to land because of the fog and return to Crna Rijeka by hitch-hiking, did
13 General Mladic explain any of this to you in detail? Why he was asking
14 you to drive him? Why he couldn't take the helicopter? Did he tell you
15 anything along these lines?
16 A. Well, yes. When we set out, he told me that he had first started
17 his trip by helicopter and then he returned because he couldn't fly
18 because of the fog and I think he said that he to hitch-hike and he was
19 in a hurry because Milosevic had asked him to come to a meeting.
20 Q. I did not quite understand what you said. Who was it that
21 invited him to a meeting?
22 A. Well, I don't know. I think that he said that the president,
23 President Milosevic asked him to come to a meeting.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, listening to the witness I thought,
25 haven't I read that? Last question is entirely in the -- who told him,
1 helicopter, even the word "hitch-hiking" apparently is --
2 What's the reason to again put the same questions to which the
3 witness has attested already? Would you refrain from being repetitious.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. During the trip, did you stop anywhere?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, which road did you
9 take from Han Pijesak to Belgrade?
10 A. The usual road we took when we went there when it was necessary.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can no longer hear the
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please come closer to the
14 microphone again because the interpreters have difficulties hearing you.
15 If you would just sit upright rather than leaning back, that would
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. I see that the transcript does not reflect everything you said.
20 Could you slowly state the route you took to Belgrade then.
21 A. Han Pijesak, Vlasenica, Milici, Zvornik, Sabac, Belgrade.
22 Q. Can you remember which bridge you crossed in Zvornik when you
23 crossed the border?
24 A. Karakaj.
25 Q. Let us please look at paragraph 12 of your statement now. This
1 is what you say there in the second sentence so I'm talking about that
2 first day in Belgrade.
3 Milosevic, Andricev Venac and Dobanovci and then you say, that
4 evening, late that evening we drove General Mladic home ..."
5 Do tell us if you remember what time that could have been when
6 you say: "Late that evening we drove General Mladic home"?
7 A. Well, in the evening. Now what time it was, I cannot say that
8 precisely. Well, really it was very late. 10.00, 11.00.
9 Q. Mr. Kenjic, thank you for these answers. Thank you for your
10 assistance. Those are the questions that we had for you at this moment.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a question for clarification.
12 What date was this?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we arrived Belgrade.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the date when you drove Mr. Milosevic in
15 the evening at 10.00 -- sorry. When you drove Mr. Mladic from a meeting
16 with Mr. Milosevic at 10.00 in the evening? When you drove him back
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was the 14th.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
21 Mr. McCloskey, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, good morning, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kenjic, you will now be cross-examined by
24 Mr. McCloskey. You find Mr. McCloskey to your right. Mr. McCloskey is
25 counsel for the Prosecution.
1 Please proceed.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kenjic.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. In your statement that counsel just showed you, it's -- we see
6 that it's dated 3 of August 2014. Can you tell us who wrote up that
7 statement that you signed?
8 A. One of the lawyers, I think, Dundjer I think is his name.
9 Q. And did have you any additions or subtractions from the first
10 draft that he showed you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And were you able to review any prior statements you made to
13 anyone before giving the Defence the statement?
14 A. I did not understand you.
15 Q. Okay. You -- we see your statement is dated 3rd August 2014. Is
16 that the time that you actually gave the statement to the Defence and
17 signed it?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. And before making the statement and talking to the Defence in
20 August, on August 3rd, did you have a chance to review anything, any --
21 could have been any document, a diary, a prior statement you made, a
22 prior statement someone else made? I mean, did you get a chance to do
23 anything to refresh your recollection?
24 A. Well, the only statement that I gave earlier to OTP investigators
25 was sometime in 2006.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak up a little, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're not only invited to come closer to
3 the microphone but also to speak a bit louder so that -- otherwise, your
4 words will be lost which we would try to prevent to happen.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. And did you have a chance to review that interview that you had
7 in 2006?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And do you recall an interview you had in Sarajevo with the ICTY
10 OTP people. It was on 16 March 2012 where, unlike the interview with
11 Paul Grady of the OTP in 2006, you actually talked about some of the
12 subjects that you have been talking about today?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you changed the language of your
15 question slightly.
16 You said that you have had a chance to review that interview that
17 you gave in 2006. Could you tell us when did you? Did you review that
18 recently or before you gave the statement to Mr. Dundjer, or could you
19 tell us when you reviewed that?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, a day or two before. I
21 didn't have the opportunity before.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You say "a day or two before."
23 What? Before today? Or before you gave that statement to
24 Mr. Dundjer?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I only saw it yesterday. That
1 first statement that I gave in 2006.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You did not see that or read that prior to your
3 interview with Mr. Dundjer?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
6 Please proceed. Mr. McCloskey [Microphone not activated]
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. And --
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] but I have to switch on
10 my microphone if I speak; it's unfortunately necessary.
11 I invited you to proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. And, Mr. Kenjic, I take it you do also remember the interview in
14 Sarajevo with the OTP on -- in March 2012?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And so -- we have a problem [Microphone not activated]
17 JUDGE ORIE: I notice it was only Mr. McCloskey's microphone that
18 I could see was open. I now open mine. I close it again and see whether
19 Mr. McCloskey's words will now reach the interpreters and then whether
20 the words of the interpreters would reach us.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
22 Q. So were you able to see a transcript of your March 2012 OTP
23 interview before coming to court today?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And on your statement to the Defence of 3 August 2014, were you
1 shown your OTP statement of March 2012 before giving that statement to
2 the Defence?
3 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you're asking. You're asking
4 me about the first statement or the second one? I've seen both of them.
5 Q. Focussing now on your statement to the Defence, we have thus far
6 one statement, only one statement that you've given to the Defence. It's
7 dated, as you've said, 3 August 2014. I'd like to know if you saw your
8 OTP interview statement prior to giving your August 2013 [sic] statement
9 to the Defence. 2014, I'm sorry.
10 A. No.
11 Q. And prior to your 16 March 2012 interview with the OTP in
12 Sarajevo, had the Defence team of General Mladic spoken to you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So how many days before the OTP interview in Sarajevo on
15 16 March did you speak with the Mladic Defence?
16 A. I cannot remember. I cannot remember how many days.
17 Q. Just roughly.
18 A. Two, three, five, seven, I really don't know.
19 Q. And who was that, that you spoke to, or that spoke to you?
20 A. Dundjer.
21 Q. And was Dundjer able to tell you a little bit about the
22 information he would be asking you about?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Well, he must have told you something about what he was asking
25 you about.
1 A. Maybe he told me, but I don't remember that.
2 Q. And --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, do you understand the English
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take off your earphones for a second.
8 Mr. McCloskey, I'm a bit confused. I think that we were talking
9 now about Mr. Dundjer meeting with the witness before his OTP interview
10 and you ask him what Mr. Dundjer said he would ask.
11 Now that may be confusing, because usually you ask questions
12 during an interview but it has not established there was an interview but
13 just that they spoke a couple of days before the OTP interview.
14 Now, of course, in the OTP interview I take it questions were put
15 to him. So there may be some confusion as to questions being asked were
16 you hinting at, whether Mr. Dundjer told what questions the OTP would ask
17 him, or what questions he would ask him, although he would not interview
18 him in the coming days.
19 So I'm -- if I'm -- if the witness is as confused as I am, then
20 please try to do something about it.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Mr. Kenjic, when you -- did you actually see Mr. Dundjer in
23 person in those few days prior to giving an OTP interview?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where did you meet with him?
1 A. [No interpretation]
2 Q. Where in Beograd?
3 A. At the office, the law firm.
4 Q. And what did Mr. Dundjer say to you? What was the first thing he
5 said to you about what this was all about?
6 A. Well, I can't remember what he said to me first. We talked,
7 including about my coming here and my testimony, where I had been, what I
8 had been doing, et cetera.
9 Q. And was he able to provide you a little information about
10 General Mladic and -- and where he was and what he'd been doing?
11 A. No.
12 Q. But you spoke about where Mladic was during the period of 14, 15,
13 16 July with Mr. Dundjer that day.
14 A. Yes, we discussed that.
15 Q. Was there anybody else in the room with you and Mr. Dundjer
16 during this discussion?
17 A. Believe me, I don't know. It's possible that there were people
18 in other offices.
19 Q. Okay. And getting into that 1995 time-frame, who was Mladic's
20 other main driver? I think --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, if you would allow me to seek
23 You told us that you met Mr. Dundjer in Belgrade a couple of
24 days - three, four, five, six, seven days - before you were interviewed
25 in Sarajevo. Is that correctly understood?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Now who took the initiative for that meeting? Did
3 you call Mr. Dundjer? Did Mr. Dundjer call you? What happened that you
4 met him?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Dundjer called me.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And apart from talking about the whereabouts
7 of Mr. Mladic, was Mr. Dundjer already aware that you would be
8 interviewed a couple of days later in Sarajevo?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] Yes. It's -- therefore,
11 is it pure coincidence that you happened to meet him just a couple of
12 days you had this interview in Sarajevo in 2012?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you tell him that you were invited for an
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in his office. I told him
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. Sir, to be fair, if you really think about it, you don't really
21 know what Mr. Dundjer knew whether or not you were going to be
22 interviewed by the OTP, do you?
23 A. I cannot remember that now.
24 Q. The only way you would have known what was in his head on that
25 particular point would have been if he'd told you.
1 In any event, I'll go on.
2 In your statement, you told us who the other main driver for
3 Mladic was in 1995. Can you remind us who that was?
4 A. Gojko Crnjak.
5 Q. And he had been Mladic's driver throughout the war, had he not
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. And you had been -- you started driving regularly for
9 General Mladic, what, in 1993?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. You've talked about the route you took on the 14th of
12 July, after General Mladic wasn't able to get to Belgrade via helicopter
13 and you finally left from Crna Rijeka. I want to show you a map of a
14 couple of possible routes that we've picked out and see if you can
15 identify if you took any of these routes.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's 65 ter 33062.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: While this comes up, I would like to clarify one
19 Mr. McCloskey just asked you if you started driving regularly for
20 General Mladic in 1993 and you said yes. In your statement, paragraph 2,
21 you said this would start as of 18 May 1992.
22 Which of the two is correct?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both are correct. Both are
24 correct. Because, in 1992, we travelled with two vehicles, two Puchs. I
25 drove the escort, and the other one drove the boss. In 1993, that
1 changed. I drove the general, and Gojko drove the others. It didn't
2 really matter which one did which.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that clarification.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Maybe we can --
5 Q. This, sir, is a map that we got from the Zvornik Brigade but to
6 tell you that we added the yellow highlighting and we added the red
7 highlighting that is noted as Route B. And if we could blow that up a
8 bit more so hopefully you may be able to recognise ...
9 In the bottom of the picture, we have -- let's blow up the bottom
10 of the picture so we can see what city that is. Okay.
11 So we see Han Pijesak there. And we see where the red and the
12 yellow lines start. Is -- where the red and yellow lines start is that
13 the approximate location of the Crna Rijeka headquarters of the VRS
14 Main Staff?
15 We can blow it up again if it will help.
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Okay. We see that it's right near this mountain called
18 Veliki Zep. All right.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's pan back so we that we can get a better
20 picture of the route again. And -- yeah. Thank you.
21 Q. Now we see the yellow route noted as Route A and the Route B is
22 in red. And Route A goes through Vlasenica, Route B goes through
23 Sekovici. You've said that -- you've testified that you took the regular
24 route. Now, as you sit here now, do you remember which route you
25 actually took, not just which route you normally took. But on that day,
1 the afternoon of 14 July 1995, are you sure which route you took?
2 A. Quite.
3 Q. Which one, if any of these?
4 A. Vlasenica, Milici, Zvornik, Karakaj, Sabac, Belgrade.
5 Q. Okay. That would be the yellow route, Route A? And let's drop
6 it down a little bit so we can get a little better picture of it. I'm
7 sorry, let's blow it up a bit so we can start where the two routes verge
8 from each other.
9 A. I told you clearly which route we took. I don't need to look at
10 the map.
11 Q. Well, that's just for our record so we're sure. So it's Route A.
12 We see the route that goes up next to the Drina river and goes up past
13 Zvornik to Karakaj?
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your answer, please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. That's it.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Could we zoom in a bit more just to maybe
17 get that blue arrow as it crosses Route A, the yellow route?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, just to go back a few lines. You
19 said the one was the route through Vlasenica, the other was the route
20 through --
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sekovici.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- Sekovici. Is it true that it's in Vlasenica that
23 the both split up and that the one goes through Milica and isn't it
24 exactly -- and I'm trying to look at map and the word Han Pijesak we go
25 to the north and there were -- what's the city? I read to the extent
1 possible under red and yellow, Vlasenica, isn't it where they split up?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So both routes go through Vlasenica. The one,
4 however, continues Sekovici and the other one, Milici.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Because you said one was Vlasenica and the other was
7 Sekovici but that's apparently not what you meant.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, that's -- thank you for clearing that up.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY:
11 Q. So if we focus a bit on that blue arrow and without having to
12 really read the map, that arrow is in the area between Nova Kasaba and
13 Konjevic Polje. And were you aware at the time that on the 13th and 14th
14 of July, large numbers of Muslim soldiers and civilians were fleeing the
15 Srebrenica enclave and had crossed that road and were still in those
16 woods all around that area where you're driving?
17 A. No, I didn't know that.
18 Q. Weren't you stopped at a check-point outside Nova Kasaba by the
19 65th Military Protection Regiment?
20 A. No.
21 Q. As you drove past the Nova Kasaba area, did you see any large
22 pits being dug near the side of the road?
23 A. No.
24 Q. When you got to Konjevic Polje, were you stopped at a MUP or army
25 check-point, or any check-point?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And when you were at Konjevic Polje, about how far were you from
4 A. I don't understand that. What do you mean? As far as I know,
5 Kravica is not on that road.
6 Q. Well, if you turn right and go towards Bratunac, it's about 9
7 kilometres from Konjevic Polje to Kravica, isn't it?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. At the time that you were in Konjevic Polje with General Mladic,
10 did you have any information -- or did you hear any information that
11 there were hundreds and hundreds of dead and dying Muslims at the Kravica
12 warehouse at that time?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And you drove northward along the road near the Drina. You went
15 by the Jadar river, did you not?
16 A. Jadar sounds familiar, but I don't know where that is.
17 Q. So I take it you didn't hear about any executions of 16 people,
18 right near the road that you had driven by, that happened the day before,
19 on the banks of the Jadar river?
20 A. No, no.
21 Q. And when you continued north that afternoon of the 14th and went
22 by Zvornik, you actually drove right by the Zvornik Brigade headquarters
23 in Karakaj, did you not?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Well, you drove by it, you didn't stop, I take it -- well, let me
1 ask you. Did you drive by the headquarters or did you stop at the
3 A. Oh, yes, yes. We passed by. We didn't stop.
4 Q. And when got to Karakaj, did you know that within about 8
5 kilometres to the east of Karakaj was a place called Orahovac where about
6 1.000 prisoners were in a school and were in the process of being
7 murdered? Did you hear information about that when you were in Karakaj
8 on the afternoon of 14 July?
9 A. No.
10 Q. So did you have any information about the other prisoners,
11 roughly 800 to 1.000, at the nearby Petkovci school, the nearby Rocevic
12 school, the Pilica cultural centre and the Kula school? Did you hear
13 about any of those thousands of prisoners that were in those schools at
14 the time that you're driving by that area?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Let's go back so we see a bit more of the map.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I'm looking not at the map but at the
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I -- yes, we should break.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break of 20 minutes. We'd like to see you
21 back after 20 minutes, Mr. Kenjic. You may follow the usher.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Mr. Kenjic, just on this map, we can make out Karakaj. It's not
6 real clear but it is where the yellow and red routes meet, right near the
7 Drina river. Is that where you crossed over on the bridge from Karakaj
8 over to Serbia?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And just lastly on this topic, when you were driving with
11 General Mladic from Konjevic Polje through to Karakaj on the 14th of
12 July, did you -- the Trial Chamber has heard the evidence that there were
13 a very large number of buses and trucks and a large convoy taking
14 thousands of Muslim men from Srebrenica along that route on the morning
15 an afternoon hours of 14th July. Did you see any buses or trucks as you
16 drove that very same route that very same day?
17 A. I didn't notice any kind of commotion on the road. It was as
19 Q. So you -- I didn't ask you about commotion, did you see any buses
20 or trucks with filled, with --
21 A. No, no. No.
22 Q. All right.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this map, 33062, into evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 33062 receives exhibit number
1 P7531, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P7531 is admitted.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. Now let's go to 16 July. Let's look at your statement, D1218. I
5 want to just take a quick look at paragraph 13, which should be on page 4
6 in the English and 4 in the B/C/S, and I just want to note that what you
7 say in the middle of that paragraph and I quote: "I took the general and
8 his wife home so that he could change and then I took them to the
9 Military Medical Academy."
10 And we can see from that paragraph that you're taking them home
11 after the wedding festivity, you don't give any particular time for that.
12 So let's look at your statement to the OTP on 16 March 2012, and
13 that is 65 ter 32932. Should be English page 21, B/C/S page 30.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should perhaps ask the witness first if he
15 remembers the time.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY:
17 Q. Do you have any recollection of about what time it was when you
18 drove General Mladic and his wife from the restaurant festivities
19 associated with the wedding to the apartment so they could change?
20 A. Around 6.00 in the afternoon.
21 Q. All right. Let's look at your statement. You say that, near the
22 bottom of the English, you're asked how long they stayed at the party and
23 you say: "A long, long time."
24 And then you were asked: "Did somebody from the wedding party
25 bring out a drink for you?"
1 And you said: "There was beer and coffee and cake, yes."
2 Then you were asked: "Do you remember what time it was when you
3 drove General Mladic to the next location?"
4 And you say:
5 "I didn't drive him anywhere else. I drove him home afterwards
6 in the afternoon. I don't know what time it was. It might have been
7 3.00 or 4.00, as long as the lunch ceremony lasted. I don't know how
8 long it lasted."
9 Now you just answered 6.00. That's obviously --
10 A. Well, all right. I said it just like that, sort of afternoon,
11 6.00, 5.00.
12 Q. You told the OTP 3.00 to 4.00. Now that you're testifying here,
13 you're saying 6.00 and maybe 5.00. So you have been influenced between
14 the time I told the OTP, 3.00 to 4.00 and what you're saying now, haven't
15 you? Your recollection has been influenced in some way.
16 A. Oh, no.
17 Q. All right. Let's -- in paragraph 8 of your Defence statement,
18 D1218, you say that General Mladic would sometimes arrive in Serbia by
19 helicopter and that you would arrive by car and sometimes return him by
20 car, vice versa.
21 And there were times when General Mladic would arrive in Zvornik
22 and you would go pick him up by car?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And where would he land his helicopter in Zvornik?
25 A. It didn't happen very often. That was during the ban on flights
1 by NATO. He would come --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear where.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and that would be it.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. We weren't able -- the interpreters weren't able to make out
6 where Mladic would actually land the helicopter during the NATO
7 flight-ban time.
8 A. Drinjaca. It's this place towards Zvornik. There was a village
9 stadium there on the river bank.
10 Q. Yes, that football pitch on the riverbank. That was near
11 Milan Jolovic's apartment, Legenda's place, wasn't it?
12 A. That I don't know.
13 Q. And in July 1995, was there a no-fly NATO ban for flying in
14 Republika Srpska?
15 A. I don't know whether there was a ban. Probably.
16 Q. And there was not a ban flying across Serbia at that time, was
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
19 come closer to the microphone and speak up. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You're invited to come closer to the microphone and
21 to speak up.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. And so there wasn't a ban in -- a flight ban in Serbia in
25 July 1995, was there?
1 A. How could I know that?
2 Q. Well, you were driving the general of the VRS across Serbia,
3 across the RS. That's why you would know, isn't it? Isn't that a good
4 enough reason?
5 A. I didn't drive a helicopter. I drove a automobile.
6 Q. What was the name of Mladic's main helicopter pilot? You've told
7 us this before.
8 A. I don't know the name, but it's Mara.
9 Q. It's Maran or Mara?
10 A. Maran.
11 Q. And that's Dusan Maran; correct?
12 A. Possibly, yes.
13 Q. And what did General Mladic call him?
14 A. Well, believe me, I don't know. Now did he call him Maran or
15 Dule, I don't know.
16 Q. Well, go back in the war years. He called him Dule, didn't he?
17 His nickname, a classic nickname for Dusan.
18 A. Possibly.
19 Q. Let's go to 65 ter 33060. This is an OTP interview of
20 Mr. Crnjak, the other driver. Let's go page 16 in English, pages 22 and
21 23 in the B/C/S. Should be about the middle of the page.
22 And we can see there were -- on that page they're talking about
23 pilot and Mr. Blaszczyk asked: "Do you remember the pilot's name?"
24 And Crnjak says: "Dule, Maran, I think, yes."
25 And then Mr. Blaszczyk says: "Could Dule be Dusan?"
1 And he says: "I don't know, something like that?"
2 Does that help refresh your recollection that your fellow driver
3 remembered Dule?
4 A. No.
5 Q. All right. Let's go to 65 ter 32931. This is an interview of
6 Dusan Maran. Page 9 in the English; page 9 in the B/C/S. And down at
7 the bottom of the page, Mr. Maran in answer to a question says:
8 "Sometimes I would not even see him, but his escort would come, or
9 sometimes [sic] else from the staff" -- excuse me, "... someone else from
10 the staff whom I knew, whom I had met or seen to tell me: Dule, go
11 to ... point A, pick up three passengers, or go get the wounded and take
12 him to another hospital."
13 So, this would be Mr. Maran referring to himself as Dule, would
14 it not?
15 A. How could I know that?
16 Q. Well, that's what it is. Does that help refresh your
17 recollection as to his nickname?
18 A. It doesn't mean a thing to me.
19 Q. All right. Let's go to Exhibit P1656. This is a ...
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Not to be broadcast.
21 Q. And, sir, this is an intercepted conversation where the Muslim
22 security services have provided an intercept between General Mladic and
23 someone called Dule, and it is dated 16 July at 0830 hours in the
24 morning. And Dule says: "It's Dule."
25 Mladic says: "I'll see you tonight, Dule."
1 Dule says: "Fine."
2 Mladic says: "Bye."
3 So you were with General Mladic for some time on the 16th of
4 July, including in the evening, in Belgrade. Are you aware of
5 General Mladic meeting anyone named Dule the night of 16 July in
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you now of him meeting Mladic, a Dule Maran meeting Mladic in
9 Zvornik or Belgrade on the 16th, on the evening?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And did you ever travel in a helicopter with General Mladic?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you get into a helicopter on the night of the 16th at the
14 heli-pad at the VMA and go with General Mladic to Zvornik, to the pitch
15 near Zvornik and then drive him to Crna Rijeka?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. One last reference to the interview of Mr. Crnjak, the
18 other driver, 65 ter 33060. Should be pages 13 and 14 in English; 18 and
19 19 in the B/C/S.
20 And Mr. Blaszczyk again, asking Mr. Crnjak: "Did you ever get
21 the opportunity to travel with him to Belgrade by helicopter?"
22 Meaning General Mladic.
23 And Crnjak said: "Yes, I did."
24 Blaszczyk says: "Where? Later on, you drove another vehicle as
25 a driver?"
1 And Crnjak says: "Yes."
2 And then Erin Gallagher says: "So you travelled with him by
4 And Crnjak says: "Yes, several times."
5 So Crnjak, a regular driver like yourself, acknowledges that he
6 travels several times with General Mladic in helicopter. How so that you
7 say that you never travelled with him by helicopter?
8 A. Never. Really, never. If you understood what I said. Really,
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have nothing further, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to take you back to the day when you
15 escorted or drove Mr. Mladic to the church where the wedding took place.
16 Where did you meet Mr. Mladic after the wedding next?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I picked him up in front of
18 the restaurant. That same day, when that wedding took place.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How far was the restaurant away from the church?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, but, believe me, they
21 went on foot, so I assume that it's not very far away from the church to
22 the restaurant. They walked and I followed them in the car.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you followed them by the car, you should be
24 able to give us an approximate distance.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let's say, 500 metres. Maybe
1 a bit more; maybe a bit less.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I would also have a question for you.
4 Let me just first check on the transcript.
5 Yes, you said today that on any other vehicle than the Puch there
6 was no equipment, and you specified no radio equipment and you specified
7 that that was true for the Ford Taunus as well.
8 In your statement, I read - and perhaps we could have it on our
9 screen, D1218, paragraph 11; I think with the cover page, it's the third
11 Could we have the B/C/S version as well.
12 Yes, there you say: "As far as I remember, we headed for Serbia
13 in a civilian Ford Taunus that did not have any special communications
14 equipment ..."
15 Did it have any communications equipment, any normal
16 communications equipment.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, none.
18 JUDGE ORIE: What could you explain why you used the wording
19 "special communications equipment"? Because if there's none at all why
20 would you say there was no special equipment? Why wouldn't you say there
21 was no communications equipment?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I really don't know why I put
23 it that way, but I know that we did not have any kind of communications
24 in these cars, or in that car, except in the Puch.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You say in your statement, as far as you remember,
1 you apparently are not sure about it. Is that well understood.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Quite. I assert that there was no
3 communication that we had in that car.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You did not correct that when you reviewed your
5 statement by saying, It's not whether I remember or not, but it's just a
6 firm fact that I state about?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, possibly.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Possibly what?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that, that I didn't change
10 that in my statement.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't change anything in your statement, and
12 the first draft stayed as it was when it was presented to you?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't think I would have
14 changed anything except for all this that I said in that statement.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Was it on the day of the statement, the interview is
16 on the 3rd of August. Was -- on that same day, was the first draft
17 presented to you?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: When was it -- how long after the interview was the
20 draft statement given to you for review?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean this version, this
22 statement that I gave to the lawyer? I only saw it yesterday, the day
23 before yesterday.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But you signed it last year, didn't you?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, my question was: Was it on the same day that
2 you were interviewed that you were given the draft statement for review
3 after which you said nothing has to be changed? Was it the same day or
4 was it another day?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it was on the same day. I
6 signed it on the same day.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And was it -- was there a pause between your
8 interview and their preparing the statement.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot remember if there
10 had been a break or not.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any recollection as to how they wrote
12 this down? You say, I don't know whether there was a break. Or was
13 there already a draft prepared at the beginning of the interview and that
14 you went through that and then signed it?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He put questions to me, I answered,
16 and I suppose that's the way they formulated it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But what was written on paper, do you have any
18 recollection as whether they had prepared something already or whether
19 they took the time after the interview, whether there was -- how did this
20 happen? Or did they write it down during the interview, or was it
21 immediately given to you for signature or first for review?
22 Could you tell us a bit more what you remember from that
23 interview in this respect?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We talked, and when we finished
25 that conversation, then they put it down on paper. I signed it. And
1 that was it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You were present when they put it down on paper?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I was there.
4 JUDGE ORIE: How long did that take approximately?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot remember.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in re-examination?
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions for
9 this witness.
10 I just want to thank Mr. Kenjic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kenjic, this concludes your testimony in this
12 court because the Defence has no further questions for you, and,
13 therefore, there's no room for Mr. McCloskey to put any further questions
14 to you.
15 I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to
16 The Hague and for answering all the questions that were put to you, put
17 to you by the parties, put to you by the Bench. I wish you a safe return
18 home again.
19 You may follow the usher.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, do I understand that there are no
24 witnesses available for the remainder of this week?
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, you understand correctly. This is the second
1 week, we had the same problem with the same witness, and we will -- we
2 are not going to call that witness in the future.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You are not going to the call the witness.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... VWS that he does not feel
5 well and that he cannot testify in this case. So we cannot call him.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, I leave it to you whether you
7 consider that he is unable to come or not. But you remove --
8 MR. LUKIC: Our decision is final.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Your decision is final.
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are removing him from the list.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat his name. He's not protected, is
13 MR. LUKIC: He is not protected. His name is Mr. Kesar Ostoja
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Kesar, and that's hereby put on the record,
16 is removed with our leave from the 65 ter list.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have still some time left. I'd like to use
19 that deal with a few procedural matters before we adjourn and that would
20 be an adjournment until Monday, because your next witness is available
21 to ...
22 MR. LUKIC: Our next witness is available on Monday.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I ...
24 Mr. McCloskey.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Also to let you know, I've
1 spoken with Mr. Lukic about an another -- we can call it a procedural
2 matter. It was a question you had of us back in March regarding the
3 Pelemisi testimony and Mr. Pelemis and I can, of course, try to take us
4 through that. We've been able to answer some of your questions and
5 discuss that a bit with the Defence. If you would like, we can do that
6 in open court or in some other manner.
7 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would it ...
8 MR. LUKIC: If Mr. McCloskey just mentions the exhibit number, we
9 would withdraw our objection.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, I best help refresh everyone's recollection
11 if you want to go through that so we can -- because it's a little more
12 complicated than that but I do appreciate the withdrawal but I'm not sure
13 any of us will remember what we are talking about. It took me a while to
14 figure this out.
15 JUDGE ORIE: To be quite honest, I have got no idea
16 Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Exactly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps I should be ashamed to admit it. But it
19 is for a fact.
20 Perhaps I do understand that you fear that Mr. Lukic has no idea
21 either about.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: He actually does. We were able to have some
23 coffee over it and he has obviously come to some conclusion and I hope if
24 all a bit vague we can then present you with documents and transcripts
25 and all that --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Would it be good -- would it be a good idea
2 that you briefly - apparently you have discussed the matter - that you
3 set out, both parties together, what exactly the issue was and what now
4 the results are. We read that and then put on the record whatever has to
5 be put on the record. Is that brief introduction in writing informal
7 Is that something, Mr. McCloskey?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not sure I understand. You want us to make a
9 verbal informal discussion or paper? We're fine with --
10 JUDGE ORIE: If it's a matter of a few minutes then let's deal
11 with it in open court. If it takes more time we'd rather have an
12 informal introduction. Or just we are referring to this-and-this issue
13 and then we'll find out and then we'll hear what the result is.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I can take probably a minute to set the scene
15 for you and you probably then either want to say, enough, send me paper
16 or no, we're beginning to remember.
17 JUDGE ORIE: One minute is a fair offer, isn't it, Mr. Lukic.
18 One minute you have, Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
20 Mr. Pelemis was testifying about the events in 1992 related to
21 Pelemisi. I had an UN report, it was 65 ter 11377, a commission of
22 expert report that had a section about Kladanj. We were talking about
23 some sexual assaults that happened in this little village of Pelemisi.
24 When I read that section of the expert report referring to sexual
25 assault allegations, it was clear that there was footnoted, this
1 paragraph in the report was footnoted, and you had asked what the
2 footnotes were, and so we have, for the last several months, been trying
3 to sort out what those footnotes were and we finally figured it out, and
4 we have about two pages of the material that the footnote is based upon.
5 Now I offered the little section on Kladanj of the expert report
6 into evidence, and Mr. Lukic objected to that, and then we all agreed
7 that it would be best before you made a decision on that section to be
8 able to get an idea of what the footnotes were about. So I now have two
9 pages that are reference to the footnote which I gave to Mr. Lukic
10 yesterday and naturally we would like to give you the fullest picture
11 possible, the two or three pages of footnotes as well as the section, the
12 small paragraph on Kladanj. I believe Mr. Lukic has agreed that the
13 small section on Kladanj referring to the sexual assaults can come into
14 evidence. My guess is he might have something else to say about the
15 footnotes. And since, Your Honour, you asked about the footnotes we have
16 them, of course, for the Chamber.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: We would leave Your Honours to decide whether
19 footnotes should be included or not. But [Overlapping speakers] ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
21 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... we are not objecting to
22 that small Kladanj portion from the expert report.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you object to have the footnotes, if tendered,
24 to be admitted? The footnote material.
25 MR. LUKIC: I leave it to you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, is it that you wish to tender the
2 footnote material? We haven't seen it so I've got no idea at this
3 moment. You said that there's two pages?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. What we have is a little packet that shows
5 the first page of the UN report that will help us maybe remember what the
6 report is from. The table of contents, you get an idea of what the
7 report is about. The paragraph on Kladanj, just the one page and then
8 the two -- actually three pages of footnotes and the reference, so that
9 we can see the footnote.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest the following. If you upload this - I
11 don't know whether it's uploaded already as a 65 ter - and you tender
12 that package as a whole and there's no objection from the Defence, if I
13 understand Mr. Lukic well.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then it would be 65 ter number -- you may have
16 mentioned it already.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's 11377a now because it has the complete
18 packet for you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's marked for identification. We'll have a look
20 at it and then decide on admission.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: And it was from transcript 33830 back in March.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That certainly will help us in preparing our
23 decision on admission.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you already assign the number
1 for 11377a.
2 THE REGISTRAR: This receives exhibit number P7532, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it's 7532 that is marked for
4 identification. And we'll, in due course decide on admission.
5 Having dealt with that, I will deal with a few other procedural
7 First, remaining issue from the testimony of Tomislav Savkic.
8 During his testimony on the 22nd of October of last year, 2014,
9 D705, a notebook entry allegedly written by Izet Redzic was marked for
10 identification following the Prosecution's objection to its admission on
11 the grounds that Savkic could not confirm whether he ever saw the
12 original of the document or whether it had been added to later on.
13 I refer to transcript pages 27140, 41 and 149, 50.
14 On the 22nd of October of that same year, the Prosecution further
15 disputed the authenticity of the date on the document and the document's
16 probative value. Transcript page 27211. The Chamber also invited the
17 parties to agree on the text of illegible parts of the document and
18 that's two and three pages further down in the transcript.
19 In an e-mail dated the 10th of December of 2014 that the
20 handwritten number at the top of the document reads 12 instead of 16.
21 The Defence informed the Chamber in an e-mail on the 11th of February,
22 2015 that a revised English translation had been uploaded into e-court
23 under doc ID 1D19-1247, but that remaining legibility issues needed to be
24 resolved with the Prosecution. According to the Prosecution, it provided
25 the Defence with another revised English translation on the 20th of
1 March of 2015. The Chamber has sent ten e-mails since December 2014
2 regarding the parties' progress.
3 On 29th of June and 3rd of August of this year, the Chamber asked
4 whether the revised English translation from the 20th of March, 2015 had
5 been uploaded into e-court and what its doc ID was.
6 On the 3rd of August, the Prosecution responded that it had not
7 uploaded the translation. The Defence has not responded.
8 The Chamber denies the admission of D705 without prejudice.
9 I now will deal with the remaining issue from the testimony of
10 Mladen Blagojevic.
11 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if I just may.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. LUKIC: Please. If the Prosecution sends something for
14 translation we cannot upload it. And if it's not our fault that it's not
15 uploaded, only the Prosecution can upload it if they send it for
16 translation. There must be some reason why they send it for translation.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you have not --
18 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... I don't know it by heart
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's without prejudice if you do not respond
21 to such a request whether it's uploaded or not because it was your
22 document. If the translation is not there, I would have expected you to
23 inform the Chamber that you did not receive a proper translation and that
24 was the reason why you couldn't upload it and then we might have decided
25 differently. But it's without prejudice. The ruling is there. You may
1 revisit the matter --
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- if you consider that wise.
4 And, at this moment, I'll not pay further attention to whether
5 the Prosecution should have provided another translation to the Defence.
6 I leave that apart from this moment. But that's why we invite parties to
7 make submissions, Mr. Lukic, that we are fully informed and not informed
8 after we have ruled on a matter.
9 MR. LUKIC: We saw recently, Your Honour, that we have a problem
10 with following all those e-mails and we have already suffered grave
11 consequences in regard of some of the rulings. So it is really hard for
12 the Defence to follow everything that comes through e-mails to us.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. These are usually reminders of what was dealt
14 with in court. Let's not forget that. And, second, if there's any
15 problem there, if you need more time, then you can always ask for it.
16 Whether we give it or not is another matter but that's the appropriate
17 way. And perhaps you should have someone who closely follows whatever
18 requests are sent by the Chamber.
19 MR. LUKIC: The problem is we have no one. That's the problem.
20 We don't have enough people.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Just to keep track of that would take me --
22 MR. LUKIC: If it's the only thing it would be easy for us but we
23 have so much to do so we really have a problem with this.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I would give priority at least of what the Chamber
25 asks for information.
1 Let's not discuss it at this moment.
2 I move on to the remaining issues from the testimony of
3 Mladen Blagojevic.
4 On the 5th of March of this year, during the testimony of
5 Mladen Blagojevic, Exhibit P7187 was reserved for an extract of the first
6 video of an interview with the witness dated the 15th of October, 2004.
7 This can be found at transcript pages 32662 through 663.
8 On the 26th of August, the Prosecution notified the Chamber and
9 the Defence via an e-mail that the parties had agreed on the admission
10 of, one, the entire first video along with its CLSS revised translation
11 which bears Rule 65 ter number 32112a and two, an excerpt of the second
12 video of the interview which bears Rule 65 ter number 32155a.
13 The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to attach Rule 65 ter
14 number 32112a to exhibit number P7187 and admits it into evidence.
15 The Chamber further admits Rule 65 ter number 32155a into
16 evidence but, Madam Registrar, would you please assign a number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 32155a receives exhibit number
18 P7533, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
20 I will now deliver the Chamber's decision on a Defence motion to
21 amend its Rule 65 ter witness list.
22 On the 28th of July, 2015, the Defence filed a motion to amend
23 its Rule 65 ter witness list to add one witness.
24 On the 7th of August, the Prosecution filed its response, not
25 objecting to the motion.
1 The Defence submits that due to medical reasons, the witness was
2 not identified as a witness in its 19th of May, 2014 Rule 65 ter filing.
3 Further, the Defence submits that even if this does not amount to
4 a showing of good cause, it is in the interests of justice to grant the
5 motion as the witness provides relevant and probative evidence crucial to
6 the Defence case.
7 The Chamber recalls and refers to the applicable law regarding
8 additions to the Defence witness list, as set out in its decision dated
9 the 12th of August, 2014 on the Defence motion to amend witness list.
10 With regard to the Defence's arguments that good cause exists for
11 not having identified the witness at an earlier stage, the Chamber notes
12 that the medical documentation presented in support of the Defence
13 submission does not substantiate the Defence's claim that this proposed
14 witness could not be interviewed before the filing of the Rule 65 ter
15 witness list. The Chamber notes that the Rule 65 ter witness list
16 predates the treatment detailed in the medical documentation. Also, the
17 medical documentation does not include any information about the
18 existence of any medical problems for this witness as at the time of the
19 Rule 65 ter filing.
20 Therefore, the Chamber finds that the Defence has failed to
21 demonstrate good cause for not including this witness on the list.
22 Nonetheless, the Chamber considers the anticipated evidence of this
23 witness as outlined in the motion, to be prima facie relevant and of
24 probative value.
25 Furthermore, the Prosecution did not oppose the addition of this
1 witness to the Defence's witness list.
2 In light of the foregoing, the Chamber considers that it is in
3 the interests of justice to grant the Defence' 28 July 2015 motion and
4 instructs the Defence to provide the relevant information for this
5 witness pursuant to Rule 65 ter (G)(i) within ten days of the date of
6 this decision.
7 I would briefly like to turn into private session for one
8 remaining item before we adjourn for the day.
9 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Before we adjourn, Mr. Lukic, I think that we earlier brought to
13 your attention that time lost in the way as we lose it today that the
14 Chamber would consider what the consequences are as far as the time
15 available to present the Defence case.
16 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume Monday, the 7th of
17 September in the morning --
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Mr. President, but I just realised I
19 need to request that last exhibit, which was P7532, under seal.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We have dealt with it, but it should be under seal?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I apologise.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We marked it for identification, is that the one
23 you're referring to? I'm bad in numbers, as you ...
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, it was that packet that --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which we discussed.
1 P7532, marked for identification, is now put under seal.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you so much.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That doesn't change the adjournment. 7th of
4 September, 9.30 in the morning, this same courtroom, I.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.49 a.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of
7 September, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.