1 Thursday, 17 September 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 No preliminaries were announced, which means that we're ready to
12 start with the examination of your next witness.
13 Mr. Ivetic, that's a witness who has protective measures and is
14 accompanied by representatives of his government. Therefore, the
15 protective measures are face distortion, voice distortion, pseudonym.
16 Therefore, we'll have to go into closed session once the witness
17 enters the courtroom. But I'd first like to have the representatives of
18 his government in the courtroom so that they can be instructed, and
19 we'll, after that, go into closed session to allow the witness to enter
20 the courtroom.
21 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could the representatives of the Canadian government
23 be escorted into the courtroom.
24 Could everyone put on his earphones.
25 Good morning, and welcome in this courtroom. Could you briefly
1 introduce yourself.
2 MS. SOLIMAN: Hanya Soliman. I'm with the Department of National
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Soliman.
5 MS. WICKLER: Major Renee Wickler; again from the Department of
6 Defence in Canada.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome to you as well.
8 Before we start, you are here as representatives of your
9 government, and your role is limited. Your role is limited to drawing my
10 attention to any national security concerns that may arise during the
11 examination of the witness, the witness who will testify with pseudonym,
12 face distortion and voice distortion.
13 You should refrain from any direct contact with the witness. If
14 you have any concern, you address me and then, of course, we'll pay
15 proper attention to it. Perhaps after we have moved into private session
16 because the testimony will be given in open session but with the
17 protective measures as announced.
18 If that's clear to you?
19 MS. WICKLER: Yes, that's clear.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MS. SOLIMAN: Yes, sir.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Then in order to make the protective measures effective, we'll
24 invite Witness GRM037 - because that's how we will call him - he'll be
25 invited to enter the courtroom once the curtains are down.
1 We briefly move into closed session.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- is there any way that we could get some.
4 Thank you, Ms. Stewart.
5 [Closed session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 Before we continue, I hereby put on the public record that the
3 witness just has made a solemn declaration in accordance with the Rules,
4 which perhaps I should have invited him to make in open session, but it's
5 hereby on the record.
6 Witness, you'll testify with protective measures. That means
7 face distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym. No one outside this
8 courtroom can see your face, no one will hear your own voice, and you'll
9 be referred to as "Witness GRM037."
10 Please take care yourself as well that in your answers that you
11 never say anything which might reveal your identity. If you think that a
12 truthful answer would put you at such risk, you're invited to address me
13 so that we can move into private session for that portion of your
15 You'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic ...
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: My colleagues advise me that I should also inform
18 you about the presence of the representatives of the Canadian government.
19 They're here exclusively to draw the attention of this Chamber to any
20 national security concerns they may -- that may arise during your
21 testimony. They're not here to be consulted by you or to give any
22 guidance to you in your role as a witness. If that is clear to you, I'll
23 now invite Mr. Ivetic, and you find him to your left, I invite Mr. Ivetic
24 to start his examination. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of
25 Mr. Mladic.
1 Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
2 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
3 Q. Good morning, again, sir.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. Before we begin with questions I'd like to remind that you since
6 we will both be speaking in English we need to observe a pause between
7 question and answer to permit the translators and court reporter to do
8 their job. Is that fair?
9 A. Yes, that's fair, I understand.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mr. Ivetic, sorry to interrupt again. If you
11 would need at any moment a break, feeling perhaps tired, just address me,
12 and we'll consider it.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. IVETIC: The first document we need to look at should not be
16 broadcast to the public. And so the document that should not be
17 broadcast to the public is 65 ter number 1D04139. And again I stress it
18 should not be broadcast.
19 Q. And, sir, if you could take a moment to look at the on screen and
20 verify for us if your name and birth date are correctly recorded in this
22 A. Yes, they are.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender 1D04139 under seal as a
24 confidential exhibit.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4139 receives exhibit number D1239,
2 under seal, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D1239 is admitted under seal.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. IVETIC:
6 Q. Now, sir, did you have occasion to give a written statement to
7 the Defence team of Radovan Karadzic?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 MR. IVETIC: If we can please have a look at 1D04140 in e-court.
10 Q. And, sir, do you recognise this witness statement from the
11 Karadzic proceedings?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And whose statement is this?
14 A. That is my statement.
15 MR. IVETIC: If I can please ask that we do not broadcast the
16 next page we go to, I'd like to go to the last page, page 5.
17 Q. There is a signature here. Do you recognise whose signature we
19 A. Yes, I do. That is my signature.
20 Q. Subsequent to signing this statement on the date that is written
21 herein, did you have an opportunity to review the same recently to see if
22 any corrections are necessary?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 MR. IVETIC: I would now like to turn to page 2 and paragraph 10
25 of the document, and while we're here, I gave a hard copy to the court
1 usher that I believe Prosecution counsel has already looked at. It may
2 assist the witness to have a hard copy in front of him.
3 Q. And, sir, in paragraph 10, it is written here that you: "Heard"
4 there was a photo showing one of the mortar shells was being detonated by
5 being dropped from a window.
6 Is that accurate that you only heard of this photo or is there a
7 clarification or correction needed?
8 A. No, that's not true. There's a correction or a clarification
9 that is needed.
10 Q. Please go ahead, sir.
11 A. When I said I heard, it was a general topic that I had heard that
12 there was and then later on I had seen the photograph, so the correction
13 is not that I just heard it but I also had seen the photograph.
14 Q. And, sir, apart from this one clarification to paragraph 10 of
15 your statement from the Karadzic proceedings, do you stand by your
16 written statement as being correct?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. If I were to ask you questions today on the same topics as
19 contained in your written statement, would your answers to me today be
20 the same in substance as is recorded in your statement?
21 A. Yes, they would.
22 Q. Since you have taken a solemn declaration to tell the truth, can
23 we then take your answers as recorded in your written statement to be
24 truthful in nature?
25 A. Yes, you can.
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, we would tender 1D04140 under seal due
2 to the signature. We do have a public redacted version, 1D04141 which
3 has the signature redacted from the document.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objection.
5 Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4140 receives exhibit number D1240.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4141 receives exhibit number D1241.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Which is admitted.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I have a short summary as per the
12 Rule 92 ter nature.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please read your summary.
14 MR. IVETIC: GRM037 was an intelligence analyst at UNPROFOR
15 headquarters from November 1994 to July 1995. He later served in
16 UNPROFOR after the Dayton Accords in December 1995. During his time as
17 an intelligence analyst, it was a widely held belief among
18 Western-oriented intelligence analyst, including him, that the Bosnian
19 Muslims were responsible for some of the most notorious shelling
20 incidents in Sarajevo resulting in death and wounding of civilians. It
21 was believed the Muslims shelled their own civilians in order to blame
22 the Serbs and get foreign intervention on their side in the ongoing war.
23 In relation to the first Markale market shelling, a US soldier
24 told the witness the Bosnian Muslims were responsible and showed a
25 photograph of a person dropping a mortar shell from a window overlooking
1 the market. As to the second Markale market shelling, the witness was
2 informed the round was recorded by Cymbeline radar but it could not be
3 determined which side had fired it.
4 A Canadian officer hold the witness about a Turkish C130 aircraft
5 escorted by US F-16 fighter jets which landed. The monitoring
6 organisation had been told to "turn their radars off" on that occasion.
7 As an intelligence analyst, he had credible information that the
8 Bosnian Muslims were violating the weapons exclusion zone in May 1995.
9 Members of UNPROFOR, NATO or national armed forces were tasked
10 with covertly locating targets among the Serbs for NATO air-strikes.
11 Among these were British JCOs and Canadian forward air controllers.
12 Several countries also had their own soldiers working covertly in Bosnia.
13 General Rupert Smith must have known about this.
14 Virtually every UNMO, the witness encountered in Bosnia tried to
15 do sneaking and peeking like James Bond. Many had weapons and were like
16 Rambo, even though they were supposed to be unarmed. The witness
17 believes national elements tasked UNMOs to collect information for them
18 from time to time. The Bosnian Serbs were aware of these activities of
19 the UNMOs.
20 The witness recalls that UNPROFOR headquarters and national
21 contingents, as well as the witness himself, advised UN personnel,
22 including UNMOs, that they may be perceived as combatants by the Bosnian
23 Serbs once NATO air-strikes commenced.
24 And this completes the public summary.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
1 I'd like to revisit one matter. You tendered D1241. Now I gave
2 a decision it would be admitted but isn't it true that guidance was that
3 redacted versions of evidence should not be tendered but should be filed
4 and that we have given instruction as to when to file them? I think
5 that's -- so, therefore, I -- we reconsider at this very moment, for
6 technical reasons, up till the moment we have reviewed exactly what our
7 guidance is, D1241 which is now tendered not admitted, or not admitted
8 yet. Or perhaps we could even make it marked for identification now. We
9 would then review exactly what the guidance was and then you are expected
10 to act in accordance with that guidance, which, as far as I remember was
11 filing but at a time as you find in that guidance. This is to avoid that
12 we have matters in evidence which the Chamber -- which do not assist the
13 Chamber but are purely there for the public.
14 MR. IVETIC: That's fair, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 And, Madam Registrar, the status of D1241 is now changed. MFI'd.
17 MR. IVETIC: May I proceed?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. Sir, I do want to ask for some further clarification as to some
21 other parts of your statement. If we can all first look at page 2 and
22 paragraph 9 of the same. And, here, when you say it was a "widely held"
23 belief that Bosnian Muslims were responsible for some of the notorious
24 shelling incidents in Sarajevo, how many such incidents did you have in
1 A. There, I am primarily talking about the two marketplace
3 Q. And your use of the term "Western-oriented intelligence
4 analysts," whom do you mean?
5 A. These would be other Western intelligence allies of Canada
6 working for UNPROFOR.
7 Q. And what led to you believe that this belief of the culpability
8 of the Bosnian Muslims was widely held?
9 A. It was just a belief that we had from being on the ground and
10 experiencing various other things. It was a belief that the Bosnian
11 Muslims were very adept at winning the public relations war and that they
12 understood the value of these such incidents.
13 Q. If we look at paragraph 10 where you say that at least -- that it
14 was widely -- it was a widely held belief within the UN forces that at
15 least one of the marketplace shellings was caused by Muslims.
16 At what level within the UN was this belief held?
17 A. This was held at the highest of levels, at the Force Commander
19 Q. Did you ever personally have occasion to visit Markale market and
20 view the impact imprint of the first Markale market shelling?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Do you know when approximately that would have been?
23 A. No, I'm sorry, I don't recall. It would have been during that
24 first tour though.
25 Q. And what were your impressions of the imprint at that occasion
1 during your first tour when you did view it?
2 A. When we looked at the -- I was with one other person. When we
3 looked at the imprint of the shell or the splatter of the round, it
4 looked to be a trajectory of being straight down. It was also such a
5 narrow street that we had anticipated that if it was a fired round it
6 would have had to have been an extremely accurate round to have landed
7 where it did on such a narrow street.
8 Q. And now in both paragraphs 10 and 11 of your statement, you talk
9 of a photograph. And today you have now clarified that you heard and
10 then also saw the photograph in question. What was your understanding of
11 the position from which the photographer had taken that photograph?
12 A. It was my understanding that the photographer of the photograph
13 was inside the same room that the person who dropped the mortar shell.
14 They were both in the same room.
15 Q. And what was your understanding of the provenance or source that
16 had provided that particular photograph?
17 A. It was provided by the Bosnian Muslim side.
18 Q. Do you recall anything about the rank of the US soldier who
19 showed the photograph or his affiliations?
20 A. Yes, the rank was a US soldier of the rank of a sergeant and he
21 was with the US intelligence cell.
22 Q. And do you have a recollection of how close you were personally
23 to the photograph in question?
24 A. Yes, I would say probably about 10 to 15 feet.
25 Q. Were you alone with the US sergeant at the time the photograph
1 was shown?
2 A. No, there were others in the room too.
3 Q. Did you hear anything about this photo subsequent to the occasion
4 when it was shown to you and others?
5 A. No, I did not.
6 Q. And this meeting or -- pardon me. This occasion when it was
7 shown to you and others, generally speaking, can you tell us what was the
8 function of that gathering. Was it social in nature or official?
9 A. No, it was an official meeting. It was a meeting that was
10 designed specifically to talk about that marketplace shelling.
11 Q. And can you help us to know approximately what time-frame that
12 meeting took place during, in relation to your deployments?
13 A. I'm going to say that it took place probably in the late
14 November or early December time-frame.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Of what year?
16 THE WITNESS: Sorry, sir, that would be in 1994.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. Moving along, in paragraph 12, you say for the second shelling of
20 Markale market you were informed that the round had been recorded by
21 Cymbeline radar but then could not be determined from which side of the
22 confrontation line it had been fired from.
23 What is the basis of your knowledge of that fact?
24 A. That was a direct conversation that I had with a person who had
25 extensive knowledge of the Cymbeline radar and its use.
1 Q. And when would you have spoken with them about this? And again,
2 if you could tie it with a particular time-period of your deployments.
3 A. I'm sorry, I cannot remember.
4 Q. And when you say the second shelling of the Markale marketplace,
5 do you recall the year of that incident, the actual shelling?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you would not mind, you say you don't
7 remember when you had this discussion or this conversation in which the
8 Cymbeline radar was mentioned.
9 Where did that take place, that conversation?
10 THE WITNESS: I had returned to Canada after my deployment and it
11 was after the -- obviously the incident. It would have been fairly
12 shortly after the incident. I was speaking on a telephone with my
13 counterpart who was still back in -- in -- in the theatre. And I was
14 also speaking with some other foreign nationals.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that you had a telephone conference
16 then or were these several conversations?
17 THE WITNESS: It would have been several conversations, sir.
18 JUDGE ORIE: All by phone?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. And let me see if I ...
23 And when you say the second shelling of the Markale marketplace,
24 do you recall the year of the actual shelling that you are referring to
25 as the second marketplace?
1 A. Yes, that's in August of 1995.
2 Q. And do you recall if the UN or NATO undertook any actions as a
3 response to this second marketplace shelling in August of 1995?
4 A. Yes, I do. It's when there was a bombing campaign that started.
5 Q. Do you recall who was in charge of operating the Cymbeline radar
6 system in Sarajevo.
7 A. It was a joint project between the French and the British.
8 Q. And you indicated you talked with your successor in position on
9 the phone. What were the nationalities of the other individuals that you
10 talked about in relation to this?
11 A. British.
12 Q. Now I want to move to paragraph 13 of your statement, which we
13 need to scroll down a bit on the screen to see it. Here, you talk about
14 a Turkish C130 aircraft escorted by US F-16s.
15 First of all, can you clarify for us what is the connection
16 between these planes and the title we see just above paragraph 13, that
17 says: "Arms smuggling by air at Tuzla."
18 A. Well, certainly the connection or the -- was that the Turkish
19 C130 aircraft that was escorted was bringing weapons into the Bosnian
20 Muslim side.
21 Q. And do you have knowledge of who controlled Tuzla or -- pardon
23 Was there a particular facility or location in Tuzla that you had
24 in mind?
25 A. Well, the Tuzla air base is what I was referring to, but I do not
1 know exactly because I have not been to Tuzla, that air base I do not
2 know exactly the runway or which runways were used.
3 Q. And do you know who would have been in control of Tuzla air base
4 at that time?
5 A. Yes, at that time, it was under the control of the UN.
6 Q. Now apart from this plane at Tuzla, did you have any other
7 knowledge of arms smuggling into the region by way of aeroplane?
8 A. Yes, I did. I had personal knowledge of aircraft landing in
9 Zagreb. They would land fairly frequently once probably a week at least
10 land around midnight, unload, and then leave within two or three hours of
11 the morning. On several occasions I personally watched these aircraft
12 land. I could not see what was being unloaded because they would be
13 farther away on the tarmac. On one occasion, which I was not there for,
14 but certainly heard, there was an explosion of one of the aircraft which
15 rocked the entire city of Zagreb.
16 Q. And now I want to focus on paragraph 15, page 3, and here you
17 state that you received "credible information" that the Bosnian Muslims
18 were violating the Sarajevo weapons exclusion zone in May of 1995.
19 What was the nature of this credible information?
20 A. There was probably two. One was the UN situation reports that we
21 received but the other was satellite imagery.
22 Q. Now, when you say here it was well-known NATO would not launch
23 air-strikes against Bosnian Muslims because they had support of the US,
24 by whom was this well-known?
25 A. It was certainly discussed at the highest levels within UNPROFOR
1 but also within Canada and its other allies within the UN. We had
2 discussed it frequently.
3 Q. Now, if we could focus on paragraph 16.
4 In paragraph 16, you say that you have personal knowledge that
5 there were personnel on the ground in Bosnia tasked with covertly
6 locating and recording Bosnian Serb positions for NATO air-strikes.
7 What was the basis of your personal knowledge?
8 A. Basis of my personal knowledge was that I spoke personally to
9 these people.
10 Q. Now in paragraph 18 of your statement on the same page, you say
11 you know national elements were providing information used in compiling
12 the target lists for NATO air-strikes because you saw such lists.
13 Where did you see this?
14 A. This was within a cell that was run by the British in the UN
15 UNPROFOR headquarters.
16 Q. Okay. Now, in paragraph 22, which starts at the bottom of page 3
17 and continues onto page 4, you say General Rupert Smith must have been
18 aware that forward air controllers on the ground in Bosnia assisted NATO
19 in strikes in May 1995 and that you saw him enter the air operations cell
20 at UNPROFOR HQ in Zagreb.
21 Why do you believe that fact is determinative that he must have
23 A. Certainly when he entered the cell from my knowledge of what was
24 happening within that cell, that was certainly the only main operation or
25 the reason for the cell. So for him to enter into the cell, he would be
1 discussing in my mind that type of information and only that type of
3 Q. Now here ...
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I -- we'll take an early break. There seems to
6 be a little problem with the voice distortion so we'll -- we'll take
7 whatever measure is needed, including an early break.
8 Mr. Ivetic, how much time would you still need?
9 MR. IVETIC: Very short. 15, 20 minutes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Fifteen to 20 minutes.
11 We take an early ...
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We take an early break but not until after we've
14 moved into closed session in order to allow the witness to leave the
16 We return into closed session, and we'll resume after the break
17 in closed session for the witness to enter the courtroom again. And that
18 will be at 20 minutes to 11.00.
19 [Closed session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 Mr. File, you reported when we were still in closed session that
25 you did not receive audio.
1 MR. FILE: That problem is resolved. Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That problem is resolved.
3 I further put on the record that what I said before the break
4 about the voice distortion that it was a false alarm that turned finally
5 out to be nothing wrong so this is a good message.
6 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Sir, we left off talking about paragraph 22 of your statement,
9 the second half of which is visible at the top of page 4 on our monitors
10 at present.
11 Here, you say that you read reports on the work of forward air
12 controllers, special forces, and national elements? Do you know if these
13 reports were shared with others?
14 A. They would have been shared with a very small group of countries,
15 certainly within other allies within the -- that Canada would have had
16 within the UN as well.
17 Q. And in this very same paragraph you also mention UN briefings for
18 whom or at what level were these briefings?
19 A. This was the morning force commander's briefings at UNPROFOR.
20 Q. Now I want to focus on UNMOs which are the main topic of
21 paragraphs 24 through 27 of your statement that we also have on page 4 of
22 your statement.
23 First of all, what category or type of information did you have
24 occasion to receive from UNMOs?
25 A. Mostly I would receive information on weapons emplacements, new
1 fortifications, new weapons coming into the area that UNMO was
2 responsible for, and then general feelings of the population.
3 Q. And now, sir, in paragraph 26 of your statement on this same
4 page, you conclude that paragraph talking about UNMOs by saying: "They
5 were like Rambo."
6 What does that mean?
7 A. What that means was they were usually -- well, the ones that I
8 dealt with which were from Canada and other countries, were usually
9 armed. They believed that they had the responsibility of doing the
10 intelligence collection of their area, and they were very aggressive in
11 their pursuit of their -- their collecting of information within their
13 Q. And now for the next questions, Your Honour, out of an abundance
14 of caution, I'd like to go into private session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
16 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 MR. IVETIC:
10 Q. And if we could return to your written statement and scroll up
11 just a little bit, I'd like to ask you about paragraph 28.
12 And here in this paragraph, you say that you believe "that
13 UNPROFOR headquarters and national contingents advised their forces in
14 Bosnia that once air-strikes by NATO commenced, they may be perceived by
15 the Bosnian Serbs as combatants."
16 You say: "I recall this being discussed at a morning briefing at
17 UNPROFOR headquarters in Zagreb which occurred at the Force Commander
18 level, although I do not know if the Force Commander was present on that
20 For purposes of the advising on the part of UNPROFOR headquarters
21 and the national contingents, what did you understand was the purpose of
22 the same? What was anticipated by them?
23 A. By UNPROFOR we're speaking specifically?
24 Q. Yes, by UNPROFOR.
25 A. Certainly it was my understanding that UNPROFOR was well aware
1 that any bombing or any air-strikes would push the Bosnian Serb side to
2 perceive us -- us being the UN at that time - as being combatants within
3 the war. It's something that we talked about extensively within
4 UNPROFOR. I talked about it a lot with the UNPROFOR intelligence cell
5 that was in UNPROFOR and with Canadians as well, talking to Canadians.
6 Q. And then the last sentence of this paragraph says: "I also
7 personally advised some UNMOs of this fact."
8 And so now in relation to your advising, I think you may have
9 already answered but what was the purpose or the anticipation behind
10 making such advisements?
11 A. It was certainly just related to keeping specifically Canadian
12 UNMOs and -- safe. And just to -- giving them the heads up, a warning,
13 that they could be perceived as being a combatant.
14 Q. Sir, I thank you for answering my questions this morning.
15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this point I have no further
16 questions for the witness.
17 Q. Thank you, sir.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
19 Mr. File, is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness?
20 MR. FILE: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. File.
22 You find Mr. File to your right. Mr. File is counsel for the
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. FILE: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. File:
3 Q. Good morning, sir.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. I'll give you the same reminder that Mr. Ivetic gave you, which
6 is because we both speak the same language, let's leave a pause between
7 question and answer for the benefit of the interpreters and the court
9 A. Yes, I understand.
10 Q. First I just want to clarify the nature of your prior testimony
11 related to your time in the former Yugoslavia. You testified once before
12 in this Tribunal in the Radovan Karadzic case; correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And before you that you gave sworn testimony in a 2005 Canadian
15 Superior Court case called Queen against Nicholas Ribic; correct?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could we briefly move into private session.
17 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 MR. FILE:
20 Q. If could you kindly answer the question, sir.
21 A. The question -- the answer to the question would be that would be
22 correct, yes.
23 Q. And in that case you were known by the pseudonym Witness A;
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. It's your position that in both of those proceedings, the
2 Karadzic case and the Ribic case, you told the truth; correct?
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. I'm going to turn your attention to the shelling of the
5 Markale marketplace in Sarajevo on 5 February 1994 which is
6 Scheduled Incident G8 in this case and is often referred to as Markale I.
7 You arrived in Zagreb approximately nine months after this
8 incident; right?
9 A. Yes, that would be correct.
10 Q. And turning your attention to paragraph 11 of your statement as
11 well as your testimony today in your statement you say: "A US soldier
12 told me that the Muslims were responsible for this shelling and displayed
13 what he said was a photograph of a person dropping a mortar shell from a
14 window overlooking the Markale marketplace. I did not examine this
16 Now, on direct examination you confirmed that you saw this
17 photograph from a distance of about 10 to 15 feet; right?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. And the size of the photograph appeared to you to be of a
20 traditional snap-shot size; right?
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. So in inches or centimetres, whichever you prefer?
23 A. 5 by 8, I guess, I do believe.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Inches or centimetres.
25 THE WITNESS: Sorry, sir. That would be inches.
1 MR. FILE:
2 Q. The US soldier flashed it very quickly and then put it away
3 again; right?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. And he did not hold it still and you could not see what was on
6 the picture; right?
7 A. That is correct, yes.
8 Q. But you were led to believe by comments from this US sergeant
9 that it depicted the interior of a room with someone holding a mortar
10 shell; correct?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. Do you recall the name of the US sergeant in question?
13 A. No, I do not.
14 Q. On direct, you said that this happened during a meeting the
15 UNPROFOR headquarters in Zagreb. Who was the most senior UNPROFOR
16 official who was present?
17 A. There would have been one other person probably of a bit higher
18 rank of myself at that time. I was a sergeant at the time. There was a
19 British person also that was there with me. I do believe he was a higher
20 rank, properly a warrant officer.
21 Q. But you can't remember this person's name?
22 A. No, I can't, I'm sorry.
23 Q. You spent the first eight years of your military career in an
24 artillery corps; correct?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. Did you have any experience handling mortar shells?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. So you must have understood that mortar shell versus a variety of
4 safety features that are intended to avoid an accidental explosion caused
5 by the crew that is handling the shells?
6 A. I understand that there are certainly mortar shells -- most
7 mortar shells do have precautions and that they need to be spinning in
8 order to activate the fuse. But there are to my knowledge, there are
9 some that do not require any of the spinning motion and are simply a
10 point detonating fuse, that if they hit something or if a hammer was to
11 hit them, they would go off.
12 Q. So you are aware that one of the safety features of a mortar
13 shell is located in the mortar shell's fuse itself, which is that it will
14 not be armed unless it undergoes the massive acceleration of being fired
15 out of a mortar tube?
16 A. Sorry, I'm obviously not making myself clear. Yes, most mortar
17 shells, I understand, have to have that acceleration to arm the fuse, but
18 there are some mortar shells that are produced that either the fuse can
19 be tampered with so it becomes point detonating, and it does not need to
20 spin. Any kind of detonation or hitting of that fuse will set it off.
21 And there are some mortar shells that are designed that way and do not
22 need to spin.
23 Q. Can you give an example of a mortar shell that would just explode
24 any time it was dropped.
25 A. Yes, it was my understanding and explained to me that the mortar
1 shell in question on the marketplace, the ones that were designed and
2 supplied by Russians or manufactured by Russians, were the ones that were
3 point detonating and did not need to be armed.
4 Q. I'm asking about your knowledge of a model of a mortar shell that
5 is always armed that can explode whenever it's dropped even if it is
6 being handled by a mortar crew?
7 A. You're asking if I know of that as true? Yes, I believe that to
8 be true, yes.
9 Q. But you can't give me a model number of any artillery that does
10 that, any mortar that does that?
11 A. No, I certainly cannot.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I would seek one clarification.
13 In your previous answer you said in -- the mortar shell in
14 question on the marketplace that there were supplied or manufactured by
15 the Russians.
16 Did they tell you that this shell was supplied by the Russians or
17 manufactured by Russians? Is that what they told you?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. It was my understanding that the
19 120-millimetre mortar shells that were being used in the theatre were
20 Russian-manufactured ones.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking in general. Was there any specific
22 about this mortar shell being of a type produced, manufactured by the
24 THE WITNESS: That is what was discussed, Your Honour, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Discussed? I mean, were you told that this
1 specifically was such a Russian-manufactured projectile?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I was told that, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: This specific one.
4 THE WITNESS: This specific one, yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, in your previous answer, you were rather
6 talking general terms, that is, mortar shells used were of Russian
7 origin, which is a bit of a different approach compared to, They told me
8 that this projectile, this mortar shell was a Russian-manufactured one.
9 Now, which of the two was it, that specific explanation given to
10 you, or was it your general understanding of the type of shells that were
11 used in the theatre?
12 THE WITNESS: As far as I can recall, I was told specifically
13 that the mortar that was used or the mortars that were used at the
14 marketplace shelling were Russian designed and manufactured.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you have no personal knowledge whether
16 that's true or not?
17 THE WITNESS: No, I do not, sir.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Please proceed, Mr. File.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a follow-up.
21 Who told you this, sir.
22 THE WITNESS: This was discussed when I was in the room with the
23 Americans and the British.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who told you?
25 THE WITNESS: Who told me? It was an American, sir.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who?
2 THE WITNESS: The American, sir, who was holding the picture.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know his name.
4 THE WITNESS: Do I know his name? No, sir.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I -- one second, please.
6 Yes, did you report this information anywhere?
7 THE WITNESS: That it was a Russian shell?
8 JUDGE ORIE: No. That the photograph was shown to you where it
9 was told that this was a person in a room who would throw, shell a mortar
10 shell from a window.
11 THE WITNESS: It was not discussed with UNPROFOR but I would have
12 sent it back to Canada in a situation report.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So you have reported in a situation report that you
14 were told that a photograph was shown to you, although at a distance,
15 where it was explained to you that this was the -- a person throwing a
16 mortar shell on the Markale market?
17 THE WITNESS: That is correct, sir, yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Though, needless to say, of course, that if there's
19 any documentary support for this, of course, the Chamber would very much
20 like to receive that.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. FILE:
23 Q. And just to clarify, you haven't provided that -- a copy of any
24 report that you drafted to anyone related to this case; correct?
25 A. That is correct, yes.
1 Q. Do you have a copy of that report?
2 A. No, I do not.
3 Q. You testified at transcript -- temporary transcript page 12 that
4 you were told the photo was "provided by the Bosnian Muslim side."
5 So your understanding was that Bosnian Muslims provided UNPROFOR
6 with documentation of their own conspiracy, and you just accepted that?
7 A. Just a small clarification. Not UNPROFOR but provided the US.
8 Q. But that didn't change the conclusion that you still accepted
9 that that was the case when you were told this; right?
10 A. That is correct, yes.
11 Q. You also testified about visiting the location of this shelling
12 at temporary transcript pages 11 to 12. And just to clarify, you said
13 you didn't know when you visited the location but it was sometime during
14 your first tour. So that's between November 1994 and July 1995; right?
15 A. That is correct, yes.
16 Q. And you said you visited this location with one other person?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. Do you remember who that was?
19 A. Once again, I just remember it was my British counterpart that
20 was working with the British forces but I do not know his name, no.
21 Q. At transcript page 12, you described the location as being on a
22 "narrow street."
23 But you're aware that the Markale I incident happened in a market
24 square, not a street; right?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. You were not given the task by your superiors to go to the scene
2 of this incident many months after it took place to try to determine who
3 was responsible; right?
4 A. That is right. It was not tasked, no.
5 Q. And you did not consult any of the reports drafted by the on-site
6 investigation teams; right?
7 A. That is right.
8 Q. You did not look at any of the photographic or video evidence
9 from the scene immediately after the explosion; correct?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. You were not aware of how the tail-fin of 120-millimetre mortar
12 had lodged in the pavement or the angle of entry it revealed; correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. You never, in the course of your career, served as part of a team
15 that conducted forensic examinations of mortar craters in order to
16 determine the origin of fire of a specific mortar round; correct?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Okay. I'm going to switch topics now.
19 MR. FILE: Could we please have 65 ter number 33154. This may be
20 listed as "under seal," but I believe it is not necessary to have it
21 under seal.
22 Q. This is a copy of your testimony from the Ribic case that we were
23 talking about earlier.
24 MR. FILE: Could we go to e-court page 64, please.
25 Q. So before I ask about this, the content, the format of this is
1 the two of the lawyers in the case reading testimony that you had
2 previously given out of the presence of the jury; right?
3 A. That's correct, yes.
4 Q. So when you see answers from Mr. DePoe he's reading your sworn
5 testimony; correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. So directing your attention to the bottom half of the page you
8 were asked the question: "Is it true that the orders to take hostages
9 came from the top level of the Serb leadership? "
10 The answer was: "I received this intelligence information from
11 direct sources.
12 "So this is done at a very high level. This is not a local
13 commander in the field gets to make the decision to take hostages.
14 "Certainly within the Serbian army and the Muslim" - and we're
15 now on the next page in e-court: "...and Croat for that matter, it's the
16 old Soviet style or old Communist style of mentality that a person
17 doesn't make a decision, a soldier doesn't make a decision unless it
18 comes from higher up. You want that authority because, not like Canada,
19 if you make a mistake, you may get charged and then have you a
20 court-martial. Here you get shot. Even the battalion commanders are
21 going to be very careful about what they do because they'll get shot if
22 they make the wrong decision.
23 "So, these type of things would be very high up."
24 Do you recall giving that testimony?
25 A. I don't recall the specific but I recall generally that that
1 would be my impression, yes.
2 Q. And when you said "very high up," you were talking about very
3 high up in the military structure; correct?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. In paragraph 14 of your statement, you indicate that you were
6 present in the former Yugoslavia in May 1995 when the NATO air-strikes
7 were carried out in Pale, but you personally were not in Pale at the
8 time; right?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. So any information that you have about what was going on on the
11 ground in Pale, you had received second-hand. You didn't observe it
12 yourself; right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And the information that you received about the hostage crisis
15 was delayed by hours or even a day; right?
16 A. I'm not sure I'm understanding exactly the question. I don't --
17 it would be hours, yes.
18 Q. In the Karadzic case, at transcript page 32033, you were shown a
19 copy of your testimony from the Ribic case, where you said: "It's within
20 maybe hours or a day or whatever, but it's not minute by minute."
21 Do you recall that?
22 A. No, I don't. But I do believe that it is probably something I
23 would have said and I'm trying to say the same thing right now, that it
24 was within hours, not minute by minute.
25 Q. Okay. I want to also ask you about some of the general comments
1 you make about UNMOs in your statement, especially paragraphs 24 to 27.
2 The basis for your opinions here comes from your interaction with
3 them as sources of information; is that right?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. And in your statement at paragraph 26, you also discussed this
6 today at temporary transcript 21, you say: "Although UNMOs were supposed
7 to be unarmed, many of them had weapons. They were like Rambo."
8 Now from your answer today, when you talked about them being
9 armed and aggressive what you meant by this is that they looked and acted
10 like Rambo; correct?
11 A. That is correct, yes.
12 Q. You're talking about the film character Rambo; right?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. You would admit that is an exaggeration?
15 A. Yes, I would.
16 Q. You are aware that engaging in this kind of exaggeration could
17 have the effect of demeaning your United Nations colleagues from that
19 A. May I have a minute to think about that question.
20 Q. You may.
21 A. Yes, I would agree with you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: A lot of the question is lost in the transcript at
23 this moment. I know that it will be worked over this evening, but
24 perhaps you could read it again not to ask the witness to answer it again
25 but at least we have it also written form before us if we want to further
1 consider the matter.
2 MR. FILE: Yes, Your Honour.
3 Q. The question was: You are aware that engaging in this kind of
4 exaggeration could have the effect of demeaning your United Nations
5 colleagues from that time?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that was the question the witness has
7 answered. It may also have reminded you, Mr. File, that speaking more
8 slowly gives certainly a good transcript.
9 MR. FILE: Thank you for the reminder, Your Honour.
10 Q. To your knowledge, none of the UNMOs that you claimed were armed
11 were part of the group that was taken hostage in May 1995; correct?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Now also in your statement at paragraphs 16 to 22, you talk about
14 the presence of forward air controllers in Bosnia. To your knowledge, no
15 one in the group that was taken hostage in May 1995 was one of these
16 forward air controllers; correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 MR. FILE: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
19 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 THE WITNESS: That last question, could I have you say it once
22 more? Just because I'm --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Your last question.
24 THE WITNESS: The last question.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- if -- do you have a transcript on your
1 screen before you.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, yeah.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then you can re-read it paragraph [sic] 37, line 3,
4 where starts now also in your statement, so you could re-read that
6 Therefore, page 37, line 3. And if there's anything you'd like
7 to add, please let us know.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Yes, I can see the question. When you talk about the forward air
10 controllers in the group that was taken hostage, which group are you
11 referring to?
12 MR. FILE:
13 Q. I'm actually just going to refer you to your previous testimony.
14 MR. FILE: If we could look at 65 ter number 33152. This will be
15 e-court page 14. If we could go to page 15, please.
16 Q. You can see at the bottom of that page, actually. It says --
17 MR. FILE: If we go back to the previous page. I apologise.
18 Q. At the last line of the page, you were asked: "Were any of the
19 hostages who were taken into custody in May 1995 some of ..." --
20 And then we can go to the next page: "... these forward air
21 controllers of which you speak? "
22 And your answer is: "No, not that I'm aware of."
23 That was your testimony from the Karadzic case; correct?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please switch off your microphone, Mr. File.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.
2 MR. FILE: I have nothing further, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. File.
4 I would have a few more questions, but I need a little bit of
5 time to prepare myself for it.
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you have seen that photograph. You were
8 told that this was someone who was at a window overlooking the
9 Markale market with a mortar shell. Could I, first of all, ask you, what
10 were you able to verify from that distance? Could you confirm that this
11 was what was depicted on that photograph, or did you say it was at such a
12 distance I couldn't see it but you just accepted that the description was
14 A. Yes, Your Honour. It was strictly waved in front and then put
15 back down. I had -- did not have an opportunity to see anything
16 whatsoever on the picture itself.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, you thought this to be relevant.
18 A. Yes. I certainly believed what the person was telling me was --
19 because the discussion was based on -- on -- on that marketplace
20 shelling. So I certainly believed it to be relevant.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have you given it some thought on - apart from
22 the technicalities of the mortar shells - whether it would be likely that
23 someone would throw a mortar shell from a window and that mortar shell
24 then to end at the place where the shell exploded?
25 A. Yes, I've given it a lot of thought, the photograph, and the
1 actual dropping of the mortar shell. If you're asking do I honestly
2 believe that they dropped a mortar shell? Am I understanding is that the
3 question you want me to answer?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's what was suggested to you and indeed,
5 that you think about whether this was likely to have happened and if you
6 would call that belief, then I would not contradict you.
7 A. Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, it is something I would believe
8 would have been -- would have occurred or could have occurred at that
9 time in Bosnia, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No, my question is not whether that could have
11 occurred in Bosnia, to throw a shell from a window, but whether it was
12 likely that someone would have thrown a shell from one of the surrounding
13 buildings on the Markale market and for it then to detonate at the place
14 where it did so.
15 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do think that it is likely that that
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any idea of what weighs a mortar shell
19 A. 120-millimetre mortar shell, I would -- I would be just guessing,
20 because I have handled mortar shells of that size. They are very heavy.
21 They have to be in the 50-pound range, 30, 40, 50-pound range. But that
22 would be a guess, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you consider that the distance between the
24 place where the shell exploded and the building from which it would have
25 been thrown was such that you could just by throwing put a -- well, let's
1 just assume a 50-pound shell over that distance?
2 A. Yes, Your Honour. That is actually probably the thing that
3 cemented the most in my mind that it is possible. Looking at where the
4 shell impacted, it's not a long ways away.
5 JUDGE ORIE: How long is it approximately?
6 A. Three feet from where the building is.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You mean the small market building or do you mean
8 one of the surrounding buildings where people may have worked and lived?
9 A. As far as I can remember and recall, directly behind where the
10 shell impacted. The building right behind it. It's only about three
11 feet from the building, if I remember correctly.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, what is behind the impact depends on
13 where you stand. Would you agree with that?
14 A. That's correct, Your Honour, yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If you change your position then, of course, what is
16 behind the shell is another feature comparing to where you were a second
18 Could you tell us, you said 3 metres from --
19 A. 3 feet.
20 JUDGE ORIE: 3 feet.
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Are you now thinking in terms of three feet from a
23 high-rise building several floors or are you talking about a lower
24 construction which would have been the market building?
25 A. No, it was from my recollection it was a three-storey or so
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we have P868, page 50. I was unable to
3 verify whether I had the right page on my e-court because it didn't
4 function well, but I hope that ...
5 Could we move ... let me see. One second, please.
6 If you just allow me one second so as to prepare myself for my
7 follow-up questions. I'm having ...
8 I have technical problems with my own e-court.
9 One second, please.
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: I have some technical difficulties, but let's move
13 on. Let's take the next page in the photograph.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise, but I haven't overcome my technical
17 I still need a bit of time but one second, please.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I do note that we are almost at the
19 time for the break. I don't know if that would assist.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is once I leave the courtroom I don't
21 have access to my e-court any further.
22 MR. IVETIC: I thought so.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could we go to page 52 in e-court.
24 Witness, this is a view of the Markale market. Just forget about
25 any arrows. Could you tell us what type of building you said the shell
1 fell at a distance of 1 metre, well, 3 feet of? Perhaps you see it best
2 on the left-hand picture which is a photograph rather than a --
3 A. I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm looking at that, but I'm still
4 confused on both pictures as to where the actual road is.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm inviting the parties to agree on it, but as far
6 as my recollection assists me, what is seen just in the very front of
7 this photograph is the -- is a car, which is on the road, which passes by
8 the market.
9 MR. FILE: Yes, that's our understanding, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
11 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours, and I believe there's a rail that
12 separates the pedestrian walkway that we see just above the car.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you see therefore the street is just in the
14 front part of the photograph? We see some stalls on the market.
15 Could you give us an indication as to where you think that shell
16 fell at 3 feet from a multi-storey building?
17 A. I'm sorry, Your Honour, but could you have somebody indicate to
18 me where the shell landed?
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I'm asking you.
20 A. I don't recall -- this picture does not in my mind -- make me
21 remember what I saw whatsoever.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then bear a second with me.
23 Could we go to page 13 in this same document.
24 Before I put a question to you, do the parties agree that what is
25 depicted here, right or wrong, is -- at least the dark dot, is where the
1 one who drew this sketch locates the impact?
2 MR. IVETIC: Without knowing how this diagram was made, no
3 Your Honours, I would suggest page 55 of the document which is a
4 photograph of the actual place where the projectile fell. That might be
5 better than a drawing prepared by an unknown person.
6 MR. FILE: Your Honour, that is what we understand it to be. It
7 is showing the relationship between the location of the impact and the
8 location that the individual mentioned at the bottom of the page.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And, Mr. Ivetic, you thought it would be
10 better to have a look at page 55.
11 MR. IVETIC: In the B/C/S original.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's look at page 55 in the original and then
13 we may go back to 13.
14 Could we enlarge a bit the middle part.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm putting to you - and please respond -
17 if this is the place of impact and it is in a sketch - and you see that
18 on your screen as well, I think - is depicted, right or wrong, that
19 there's no way that the point of impact would be been 3 feet of a
21 A. I would agree, absolutely.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that all your thoughts about how likely
23 there would have been to throw a mortar shell with your hands reaching
24 this place is that your thoughts were, rather, on loose grounds if the
25 distance is, indeed, totally different?
1 A. I am at a loss. I do not recognise the picture. You showed a
2 picture before of a building right beside a tall building. So.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If you are -- I'm asking you now --
4 A. Mm-hm --
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- not to again start thinking about the matter but
6 to either confirm or deny with proper reasons that what you see here,
7 that this point of impact is not within 3 feet of any building,
8 irrespective of what building we're talking about.
9 A. If that is the impact I would absolutely agree with Your Honour,
10 yes, it's not within 3 feet.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you have told us that you have been on
12 that market and you could have known unless you say this you say this is
13 not what you saw as an impact on the ground of the market.
14 A. That is correct, Your Honour, yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Did you at that time -- were you able -- because
16 that was at the basis of your thoughts that this was within 3 feet of a
18 A. The basis of my thoughts were, yes, because it was within 3 feet
19 of a high-rise building it was able to be dropped.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But looking at this, is that still your
22 A. No, it is not.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 Any further questions, Mr. Ivetic?
25 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Yes, we'll first take a break.
2 That's -- I'm reminded by my colleagues that it's time for the break.
3 But before we take the break, we first move into closed session
4 so as to allow the witness to leave the courtroom.
5 [Closed session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
23 Q. Sir, during cross-examination, you were asked about the
24 photograph that was shown to you and you said that it was flashed and
25 then put away and then at temporary transcript page 39 in answering
1 questions of the Judges you said there was a discussion as to the
2 Markale market shelling during the course of that meeting.
3 The first question I want to ask you is did that discussion into
4 the shelling -- the first shelling of Markale marketplace take place
5 before or after the photograph was flashed to yourself and others in that
7 A. It would have been immediately right after.
8 Q. And do you have any approximation as to how long that discussion
9 lasted, talking about the Markale marketplace shelling after that
10 photograph had been flashed?
11 A. Fifteen, 20 minutes.
12 Q. And you identified or mentioned a sitrep that you would have sent
13 back to Canada about this. Do you recall what security classification
14 level such sitreps would have been marked with at the time they were
16 A. This one was -- when I said a sitrep, it was a phone call that I
17 had made. I recall calling back to Canada and discussing the incident.
18 It would have been -- as far as classification it would have been secret
19 and it probably would have been Canadian eyes only.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would it have been Canadian ears not eyes because
21 it was a telephone call?
22 THE WITNESS: Pardon me, sir? I'm sorry, I didn't understand the
23 question, sir.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said it was a telephone call. It was not a
25 written document.
1 THE WITNESS: No, it was a telephone call.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it would have been for Canadian ears, not eyes.
3 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's correct. Yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
5 MR. IVETIC:
6 Q. Sir, I want to thank you for answering my questions and for
7 coming here to testify.
8 MR. IVETIC: I have no further questions for the witness. We do
9 have one matter that we need to discuss before the guests from Canada
10 leave the courtroom. As far as I'm concerned we could excused the
11 witness but we would want to jointly address you on another matter
12 following the witness's departure, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Questioned by the Court:
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would have a question for the witness.
16 Twice you mentioned counterparts today. The first time you said
17 you were back in Canada but you were "speaking on a telephone with my
18 counterpart who was still back in the theatre."
19 Who was that counterpart?
20 A. I'm sorry, Your Honour, I do not recall the name of the person
21 who replaced me in theatre.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was a Canadian intelligence officer.
23 A. That is correct, sir.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The second time you mentioned a counterpart was,
25 and I quote from page 32, line 12: "Once again, I just remember it was
1 my British counterpart that was working with the British forces but I do
2 not know his name."
3 How long did you work together with this British counterpart of
5 A. Probably about three or four months of my tour.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you don't know his name?
7 A. No, I am afraid not, sir.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you know any names?
9 A. No, I don't.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like take you back to this photograph.
11 Was it a colour photograph or a black-and-white photograph?
12 A. As far as I could tell, black and white, sir.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did anybody look at this photograph during that
14 discussion which followed the showing of the photograph?
15 A. No, not at all.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Who was it who had this photograph in his hand?
17 A. The United States sergeant that was part of the intelligence
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What was his name?
20 A. I do not remember, sir.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then I would like to take you back to
22 paragraph 28 of your statement. There you say, I quote: "I believe that
23 UNPROFOR headquarters and national contingents advised their forces in
24 Bosnia that once air-strikes by NATO commenced, they may be perceived as
25 Bosnian Serbs -- by the Bosnian Serbs as combatants."
1 Who are those you are referring to in this sentence?
2 A. I'm sorry, Your Honour, I don't see the word "those" in the
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: "I believe that UNPROFOR headquarters and
5 national contingents advised their forces."
6 Who are these?
7 A. Their forces, you're talking about UNPROFOR, their forces? That
8 would be in headquarters, any of the UNPROFOR nations that were involved
9 in the UNPROFOR headquarters, it was discussed that there would be -- it
10 would be possible seeing the UN as being one-sided and being combatants.
11 So what I'm referring to there is anyone who was sitting in that UNPROFOR
12 meeting at that time, because the UNPROFOR meetings were open to all
13 UNPROFOR countries they were allowed to have people at that meeting, any
14 of these people would have gone back to their own national people, their
15 contingents in theatre and explained it to them that they may be seen as
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Who was heading this meeting?
18 A. I do not recall.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What was the function of that person?
20 A. That I do not recall either.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which -- which nationality?
22 A. There was a British intelligence that was also giving a briefing
23 and it may have came from him. He was -- and I do not recall his name
24 whatsoever. But it was at the commander's level of briefing that was
25 done every morning.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you remember any name of any of the
2 participants of that meeting? If you are hesitant to mention the name in
3 public session you may ask for moving into private session.
4 A. May I speak with the Canadian representatives first.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You're supposed not to speak to them but apparently
6 the representatives of the government have not expressed any concerns.
7 It was offered to you to give the name in private session. If I do not
8 hear of any objections to that solution, if we would follow that course.
9 MS. SOLIMAN: We're fine with going in private session.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
11 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you attend this meeting, sir, of -- that you
16 referred to in paragraph 28? Where this matter was discussed?
17 A. Yes, I did, sir.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you assumed that your Canadian colleague
19 attended. You are not recollecting that you saw him there.
20 A. No, I'm recollecting that we spoke around that time-frame, but I
21 don't know whether -- he was a briefer for -- for that UNPROFOR meeting,
22 and I don't recall -- there was -- because there was four or five
23 briefers, whether he was at that meeting or not. At the first one. But
24 he certainly would have had the same type of -- of thought process that I
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But you said you assume he attended the
2 meeting. Surely you would have seen him if he had attended the meeting
3 if you were also there?
4 A. Yes, because he would probably have been briefing. But I don't
5 recall whether it was him that gave the actual briefing or not.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you mentioned with respect to the photograph
7 that the person who was briefing you about it sort of flashed it and put
8 it down. It was something like an 8 by 5 inches photograph, according to
9 your statement?
10 A. Yeah, I'm saying 8 by 5 but I'm talking about a normal
11 photograph, a snapshot. It wasn't a blown-up version or anything. I'm
12 just saying 8 by 5 and I'm just doing that by quick arithmetic in my
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: And this was at 15 feet distance.
15 A. That's correct, sir.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you see a picture or did you just see a paper
17 with something on it or were you able to make out what was on the
19 A. No, I was not able to make out anything on the picture
20 whatsoever, sir.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You cannot say for certain that you saw the
22 picture of a person throwing out a bomb.
23 A. That's correct, Your Honour, yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said at page 12, line 18 of your testimony
25 today that this photograph was provided by the Bosnian side.
1 A. Yes, I do remember. Yes, correct.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the basis for your assertion that it was
3 provided by the Bosnian side?
4 A. I was told that by the Americans.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it is not your own personal knowledge. You
6 were told.
7 A. That is correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few more questions for you.
10 The Americans that told you that it was provided by the Bosnian
11 side, were that the same Americans that told you what was depicted on
12 that photograph but which you couldn't see?
13 A. Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Now I would like to go back to P - what
15 was it? - 868 and to page 54 and I need the B/C/S only.
16 This, again, is a picture of the Markale market as it was in the
18 Witness, do you see that there is behind the stalls that there is
19 a lower construction -- it's perhaps difficult to see. Whether it's one
20 or two floors up or even three. Is that where you gained the impression
21 that it may have been thrown from those buildings or from, rather, from
22 what we see further in the back or to the right or to the left, which are
23 higher up buildings?
24 A. As far as I can recall, it would have been the -- the building to
25 the right.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The building where we see above the stalls at least
2 four floors.
3 A. That is correct, sir.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I then take you to page 27 of the same
6 Witness, here are some measurements on what still is said to be
7 the Markale market. The building you pointed at - but I'm speaking
8 agreement of the parties - would be building number 5, if I ...
9 Any disagreement?
10 MR. IVETIC: I think it might be number 2, actually, based upon
11 if the representations of the three equally spaced rectangles on the
12 bottom are stalls, and if the three or four equally spaced rectangles
13 along the middle of the page going from left to right are also stalls
14 then I think building number 2 [Overlapping speakers] ...
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then we go back to the previous photograph, page
16 20 -- page 54. And perhaps we could have them next to each other. That
17 is, page 27 and 54.
18 Witness, do you see the cursor on that? Could we move the cursor
19 a little bit further to the right, further to the right. There. Is that
20 where the cursor now, is that the building you referred to earlier when
21 you said "the building to the right"?
22 A. Yes, it is, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Can we then -- I'm again seeking the parties' input
24 on whether that would -- in the understanding of the parties be anything
25 else and that witness -- than building number 5.
1 MR. FILE: Your Honour, it's our position that that is building
3 MR. IVETIC: I understand that the Prosecution position. I am
4 hardly well placed in the courtroom to now look at a document that was
5 not announced to make any kind of representations. I just can't do that
6 without having reviewed the record in full.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you presented a witness who tell us what
8 happened on the Markale market from windows where possibly shells were
9 thrown on the market but if you say you can't, at this moment, express
10 yourself on it we'll have to do without. I'm drawing the attention of
11 the parties to this one because there are more measurements, right or
12 wrong, but there are measurements on this map which were not on the map
13 that I showed the witness earlier.
14 Witness, in view of the measurements, what is presented here as
15 the point of impact is at metres and metres and metres away from that
16 building you indicated.
17 Do you have any reason to challenge the accuracy of what is
18 depicted here compared to what you told us earlier?
19 A. No, I don't, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 I have no -- one second, please. I'm just checking some of my
23 Yes, I'm not going to put any further questions, but for the
24 parties to consider whether they would have any further questions, I draw
25 your attention to P538, page 56, which gives more measurements, again
1 right or wrong, but at least matters are measured there.
2 I leave it to that for the time being. But if the parties would
3 just check in order to see whether that would trigger any further
4 questions, then they have an opportunity to do so.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: If there are any further questions, the parties may
7 put them to the witness. If they need further time to look at the
8 exhibit I just referred to, then they could ask for more time.
9 Mr. File, any other questions.
10 MR. FILE: Yes, Your Honour. I just have one question that
11 follows directly from Mr. Ivetic's examination.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 Further cross-examination by Mr. File:
14 Q. Mr. Witness, at transcript page 31 of today's transcript, you
15 said that you would have "sent a sitrep to Canada" regarding the
16 photograph we were talking about.
17 And then at transcript page 47 you said that this would have been
18 a phone call to Canada. Without mentioning any names in open session,
19 can you recall with any certainty the name of the person you spoke to on
20 the phone when you called Canada?
21 A. No, sir, I cannot.
22 MR. FILE: I don't have anything further, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. File.
24 Then, Mr. Ivetic, before we allow the witness to leave the
25 courtroom, first of all, we'd have to turn into closed session and then
1 you want to address the matter you had on your mind in closed session as
3 MR. IVETIC: In closed session or ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know.
5 MR. IVETIC: Yes, we should initially be in closed session for
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now another matter, is there any chance - I
8 don't know what you have on your mind - that we would need the witness
9 for it any further or could you exclude that because --
10 MR. IVETIC: Oh, the other matter has nothing to do with this
11 witness. Right? Or, one moment.
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MR. IVETIC: I'm told we may need to have the witness here for
14 the first part of the submission. The other part has nothing to do with
15 the witness, so now I would ask that we go into private session and then
16 I would defer to our friends from Canada.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So we would then first move into private
18 session. Then we would -- once we've done with the witness we would move
19 in closed session. And then we would deal with the second matter in
20 closed session or should we return into open session then, Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: I think once we have the discussion in private
22 session we'll be able to then announce at a point that we go back into
23 open session.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We move into private session.
25 [Private session]
11 Page 39061 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 Witness, I'll repeat what I just started saying. That is, that
9 we'd like to thank you very much for coming the long way to The Hague and
10 for having answered all the questions that were put to you, put to you by
11 the parties, put to you by the Bench. And I wish you a safe return home
12 again. If you would wait until the curtains are down, then you may
13 follow the usher and leave the courtroom and you are excused.
14 We turn in closed session.
15 [Closed session]
22 [Open session]
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, should we proceed even with the
24 curtains or should we wait for the curtains?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's wait for the curtains. People might not see
1 you, Mr. Ivetic.
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
4 Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 With relation to the videolink for this coming Monday both of the
7 officers from the Canadian government that are with us today will be
8 attending that videolink as per Your Honours' oral rendering of the
9 permission to do so yesterday. We had originally scheduled that for 6.00
10 a.m. Canadian time which was 12.00 noon local time. In discussions with
11 my colleagues from Canada, I have been advised that the building opens at
12 6.00 in the morning and they may have some difficulty getting everyone
13 through the security check right at 6.00 so the joint proposal would be
14 to move the start time one hour later so that it would be 7.00 a.m.
15 Canadian time and 1300 hours The Hague time.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you remind me what the scheduled times are
17 that the Defence would need.
18 MR. IVETIC: The Defence has 1 hour and 30 minutes and I think
19 we'll be well within that time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And the Prosecution for that witness had scheduled?
21 MR. FILE: The Prosecution has also said hour and a half for
23 JUDGE ORIE: So that makes all together three hours, that is, two
24 breaks and we would then most likely that would take us until 5.00, 5.30
25 of -- in our time.
1 MR. IVETIC: In Dutch time, yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in Dutch time. I think that causes no
3 problems. Then we'll start at local Canadian time 7.00 in the morning,
4 and 1.00 in the afternoon time in The Hague.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. And I think that's much
6 appreciated and I do want to thank our colleagues from Canada for
7 attending here and for all the co-operation that they have provided.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's appreciated not only by the parties but
9 by the Bench as well. I hope I didn't speak for you, against your will,
10 Mr. File.
11 MR. FILE: Not at all, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We have to deliver one decision. There is no need
13 for you to remain present. We thank you for coming and for assisting in
14 receiving the evidence we need.
15 You are free to leave the courtroom, and the usher will show you
17 MS. WICKLER: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If you would wish to stay, that's fine. It's all
19 public. But as you wish.
20 I would like to deliver a brief decision. I don't think that the
21 screen is obstructing any view for anyone in the public gallery.
22 I'll deliver the Chamber's decision on the admission of P7368,
23 which is a newspaper article dated the 17th of November, 1995 and was
24 marked for identification during the testimony of Drasko Vujic on the 4th
25 of May of this year.
1 The Defence submitted via an e-mail on 4 August that it objects
2 to the admission of P7368 as Vujic opposed its content and was not
3 familiar with the article.
4 On the 31st of August, the Prosecution submitted - again via an
5 e-mail - that P7368 should be admitted into evidence as Vujic recognised
6 the author of the article and commented on the quality of his work. The
7 Prosecution further submitted that Vujic also acknowledged that he had
8 "encountered a small unit of Arkan's" in his area of responsibility as
9 suggested in the article.
10 The Chamber recalls the applicable law for the admission of
11 evidence which is set out in Rule 89(C) of the Rules of Procedure and
12 Evidence, which allows a chamber to admit any relevant evidence which it
13 deems to have probative value. The Chamber further recalls its guidance
14 of 29 October 2012 transcript pages 4133 to -34, in which it explained
15 that if the content of a document used during a witness's examination is
16 sufficiently linked to the witness's testimony, the document can be
17 admitted through that witness, even if the witness is unfamiliar with the
19 P7368 discusses the area of responsibility of Arkan's Men, and
20 Vujic testified that he had encountered a unit of Arkan's Men in that
22 Therefore, the Chamber finds that P7368 is sufficiently linked to
23 Vujic's testimony and that it is relevant and of probative value pursuant
24 to Rule 89(C) of the Rules and, therefore, P7368 is admitted into
1 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.
2 As far as our programme is concerned, no witnesses available
3 for -- further today and tomorrow, Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honours. We have exhausted the
5 witnesses available, and the next witness available is the videolink from
6 Canada scheduled for Monday.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One second.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Ivetic, it's good for us to know that the
10 next witness will give his testimony this Monday, starting at 1.00. What
11 else is to be expected? We have now experienced two weeks with working
12 on approximately half or less of our capacity, needless to repeat that
13 the Chamber is greatly concerned about it and will further consider what
14 it will do in terms of time allocated to the Defence.
15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, as Your Honours know, this week was
16 due to several scheduling issues with other witnesses that had been
17 intended for this week. I can report for next week that the witness who
18 would appear after the completion of the videolink is one of the experts
19 that has drafted four expert reports for this matter, and based upon the
20 estimates for direct and cross-examination should take the remainder of
21 that week, and even bleed into the next week potentially, so that is --
22 is what I can report to you the latest situation, as it were.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You mean a thousand pages may take some time to get
25 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, the Chamber urges the Defence - not
2 only for the coming week where there seems to no problem but also for the
3 weeks to come after that - to avoid that it ever happens again what
4 happened during the last two weeks.
5 We'll adjourn for the day, and we'll resume Monday, the 21st of
6 September 1.00 in the afternoon, The Hague time, in this same courtroom,
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.55 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of
10 September, 2015, at 1.00 p.m.