Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 39623

 1                           Monday, 5 October 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before we continue, I'd like to deal briefly with one matter.

12             The Defence filed a video-conference link motion on the 30th of

13     September which, if granted, might be able to be combined with another

14     video-conference link scheduled for the end of the month.  Considering

15     this possibility, the Chamber invites the Prosecution to expedite its

16     response.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Ms. Subotic.  Before we continue, I'd

19     like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration that

20     you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

21             Mr. Weber will now continue his cross-examination.

22             Mr. Weber.

23             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours.

24                           WITNESS:  ZORICA SUBOTIC [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 39624

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]

 2        Q.   Good morning, Ms. Subotic.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   This morning I'd like to direct your attention to incident G-6 in

 5     Alipasino Polje on 22nd of January, 1994.  As part of this incident,

 6     there were three shells that exploded; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And I'll give you a second here.  I see that you're flipping to

 9     that section of your report.

10        A.   Yes, I'd like to open that page.

11        Q.   You were able to examine the remains of only one of the three

12     impacts because two of the craters were no longer visible when you went

13     to the site to examine them in 2010; correct?

14        A.   Yes.  We found traces at Klare Cetkin number 4, in

15     Cetinjska Street number 3, there were no traces remaining and near

16     Rade Koncar, that point of impact was not analysed.  It's not in the --

17        Q.   If you would listen to my questions carefully.  I'd like to go

18     step by step.

19             One of these craters was not preserved because the shell landed

20     in soil and one of the craters was fully repaved; correct?

21        A.   Right.

22        Q.   The only crater that you were able to physically examine in 2010

23     was the remains of the crater that landed on Klare Cetkin Street correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   This was the crater from the shell that landed on the curb;

Page 39625

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes, close to the curb.

 3        Q.   At the time of your visit in 2010, you noticed that this

 4     remaining crater was physically altered with part of the curb being

 5     repaved in the area of the crater; correct?

 6        A.   Yes, a new block was built into the curb.  It was not exactly

 7     repaved but a new block was made and placed into the curb.  If it had

 8     been repaved, then it would all have been covered.

 9        Q.   Your analysis for the impact on Cetinjska number 3, was based on

10     still images from Barry Hogan's video in 2001 and from other photographs

11     that you obtained from a witness in the Karadzic cases; correct?

12        A.   Yes, but we also used the photo documentation made by the

13     crime-scene officer when he was making his on-site investigation, and I

14     believe this street is called Cetinjska.

15        Q.   The investigators measured all three craters and one was found to

16     be significantly larger than the other two, specifically one was 4.8

17     metres long and two of the craters measured less than 180 centimetres in

18     length; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In paragraph 68 of your report, and this is in -- on page 106 in

21     e-court of the English - you note what you feel to be discrepancies and

22     state:  "And police investigators did not use any method to determine the

23     direction available to them, such as, for instance, the central axis

24     method but determined the direction on their estimates."

25             This statement is not accurate; correct?

Page 39626

 1        A.   It is not correct.  They did nothing to document in their report

 2     how they determined it.  They only put it in as a written statement that

 3     a certain direction is indicated.  In crime-scene investigations, that

 4     means nothing.

 5        Q.   You reviewed the evidence of Mirza Sabljica regarding this event.

 6     Did you follow Mr. Sabljica's testimony in this case where he discussed

 7     incident G6, and at transcript page 8058, he stated:  "We used the usual

 8     method.  We used the extra central axis method."

 9             Did you follow that?

10        A.   Yes.  And I didn't deny that he said it.  I just said that it is

11     not documented in their documentation how they did it.  And we reviewed

12     their other documentations where all this is properly documented and

13     shown, including, photographs, in the photo documentation.

14        Q.   Did you base your Mr. Sabljica's evaluation of Karadzic evidence

15     on what you just heard in court or did you read Mr. Sabljica's statement

16     in the Karadzic case where you further described the methods that he used

17     during this incident?

18        A.   You must not forget that I was in the courtroom when he was

19     giving evidence in the Karadzic case.  And immediately after that, when

20     we showed him the traces on the asphalt from the impact of a shell in

21     Klare Cetkin Street number 4, he also agreed - and you will see that in

22     the transcript - that we --

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

24        A.   -- determined the direction correctly.  So these two things are

25     contradictory.

Page 39627

 1        Q.   You haven't fully answered my question.  Did you also read his

 2     statement?

 3        A.   Yes, of course.

 4        Q.   Do you recall from the Karadzic case that you were confronted

 5     with many instances where you made inaccurate, incorrect, or incomplete

 6     representations about the testimony of Mr. Sabljica and other witnesses?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   You repeat many of the same representations in your present

 9     report.  Did you go back and review Mr. Sabljica's evidence or the

10     testimony of other witnesses after your last testimony to make sure that

11     they were accurate?

12        A.   We reviewed everything.  We followed testimonies and we did not

13     find any reason to find any correction whatsoever in the sense that you

14     indicate.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33117,

16     page 32.

17        Q.   This is your testimony from the Karadzic case regarding

18     incident -- it's part of it regarding incident G-6.  The paragraphs are

19     the same so this is in reference to the same paragraph in this report,

20     number 68.

21             Starting at line 19, you were asked:

22             "Q.  Ms. Subotic --"

23        A.   Excuse me, I don't have the translation of this transcript.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Carefully listen to how it is translated to you now,

25     because there's no B/C/S translation existing.

Page 39628

 1             If you need any portion to be reread don't hesitate to ask, but

 2     carefully listen do what comes to new your own language.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   I'm going to start at line 19:

 6             "Q.  Ms. Subotic, at paragraph 68 - I'd like to move on to

 7     paragraph 68 now, which is at page 49 of the English and page 102 of the

 8     B/C/S - you -- if we could zoom in on this photo.  In paragraph 68, you

 9     claim that Mr. Sabljica contradicted himself in his testimony.  You state

10     that although Mr. Sabljica initially stated that this -- the shell that

11     made this impact came in from a direction slightly north of west, you say

12     that he later agreed that the direction shown by the measuring tape on

13     this photograph was not properly established.  And you repeated this in

14     your testimony at transcript page 38262.  Now, you were present when

15     Mr. Sabljica testified so you must know that Mr. Sabljica, in fact, made

16     it very clear that it was improper to establish direction of fire from a

17     photograph and that this is not what they did at the time, and that's at

18     transcript page 7829 -7830 and when he was asked to draw the traces on

19     this photo, he said:

20             "'Well, that's what we can see in the photo at least.'

21             "And that's T.7847 and D755.  And when he was asked to mark

22     tracts on another photo of this crater he said:  'Yes, I will, but I have

23     to stress again that a photo is not really the appropriate way to

24     determine these things but here it is.'

25             "That's T.7849 and D756.

Page 39629

 1             "So when you claim in your report that Mr. Sabljica agreed that

 2     the direction showed by this measuring tape was properly established

 3     you're essentially misrepresenting his evidence because he made it quite

 4     clear that could you not properly establish anything on the basis of a

 5     photograph; right?"

 6             Your answer:  "Mr. Sabljica, in my view, agreed with us and said

 7     that this is the fact that traces are well determined on the asphalt and

 8     that he established the trajectory of the shell correctly."

 9             Do you maintain this view?

10        A.   Mr. Sabljica agreed with the direction that we showed him, and he

11     said that it was properly determined based on the photograph.  I agree

12     with Mr. Sabljica that it is far better to do it on the spot and

13     immediately after the critical event.  It is much better to analyse it

14     and determine it on location.  Then you are likely to get correct

15     results.

16             However, Mr. Sabljica saw perfectly well that the traces we found

17     many years later are more than 3 metres away from the curb and it could

18     no way be an 82-millimetre shell.  That's one.  And two, he agreed with

19     what we determined as a direction is correct.

20        Q.   Are you saying that that Mr. Sabljica actually agreed with you

21     about a photograph being a proper way of determining direction of fire?

22     If you could please answer that question.

23        A.   No.  And he was not asked that.  He was asked whether it was

24     correct that we properly marked the traces as they were on the asphalt

25     and if it is true that the measuring tape that was placed across the

Page 39630

 1     traces indicated the correct direction.  That's what he agreed with.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33188.

 3        Q.   This is Mr. Sabljica's Karadzic testimony that was referenced in

 4     my last question to you.  At transcript page 7829, starting at line 17,

 5     Mr. Sabljica was asked:

 6             "Q.  Do you agree that there is a certain perspective here in

 7     view of the distance from which the photograph was taken?

 8             "A.  You mean in terms of approach to photography?  Yes, there is

 9     a perspective.

10             "Q.  Do we agree that perspective makes it more difficult to

11     establish direction?

12             "A.  I agree, but a direction is not established based on

13     photographs; that's also a very important fact.  We did not use

14     photographs to determine directions, we used exact methods on the site,

15     that is to say" --

16             And if we could have the next page.

17             "... firm traces on surfaces not photographs.  Working on

18     photographs and drawing on photographs can give you completely different

19     results."

20             You were present when Mr. Sabljica said this; correct.

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   Moving on:

23             "If we look at paragraph 68 of your report and again at

24     paragraph 75, you state:  "Mirza Sabljica agreed that according to the

25     map the line extending from number 4 Klare Cetkin Street to the institute

Page 39631

 1     for the blind is due south-west."

 2             The map that you are referring to is the map he marked during his

 3     Karadzic testimony, which was Exhibit D746 in that case.

 4             Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 1D01413, page 93.

 5             During Mr. Sabljica's Karadzic testimony, on this map, which is

 6     before you, at page 7805, line 8, Mr. Sabljica was asked:

 7             "Q.  But you do know what streets these were.  Is that the 8

 8     symbol that we see there at the eastern part, the eastern 8 symbol, the

 9     Klare Cetkin Street and Bosanska Street?

10             "A.  Well, it's about here." - there's a notion [sic] that he

11     indicated - "I can't quite mark the area -- the point of impact where

12     these shells fell, but I'll just indicate the general area."

13             At line 20 on this same page, the question was posed by

14     Mr. Karadzic:

15             "Could you now please indicate, with numbers 1, 2, and 3, the

16     location where they landed?"

17             Mr. Sabljica answered:  "Well, I really can't do that.  As I told

18     you a minute ago, it's a large area and it's built up.  There are a lot

19     of buildings there.  You know what Alipasin Polje looked like.  It's

20     difficult to do that."

21             Could the Prosecution please have the next page.  And if we go

22     down towards line 24 on this page, Judge Kwon even commented during this

23     discussion:

24             "The quality maybe is not very well, Mr. Karadzic.  I think it is

25     a scanned copy from the copy again."

Page 39632

 1             Since you were present during this testimony, you were aware that

 2     when Mr. Sabljica was asked to make markings on this map which Judge Kwon

 3     commented on being a of poor quality, he continuously said that he could

 4     not mark on the map without difficulty.  That is what happened.

 5        A.   I'm sorry, are we talking about the map that is shown on figure

 6     63 in our report?  I don't have now with me the photograph that was shown

 7     to Mr. Sabljica, and it's difficult for me to remember two and a half

 8     years later what it looked like.  I don't know which picture was shown

 9     him.

10        Q.   Do you acknowledge that you witnessed the testimony that I've

11     just read to you?

12        A.   I cannot not accept it because I was there during his testimony.

13        Q.   I'll ask you a more broad question because there are many other

14     instances in your report where you do not provide full explanations or

15     context related to the use of maps or photos with witnesses, such as

16     discussions of poor qualities of maps or photos, or the fact that

17     witnesses either did not agree or were -- it was difficult for them to

18     mark on a certain photo used by Mr. Karadzic.

19             You accept that you don't provide full context for that testimony

20     in your report?

21        A.   I think that in everyone citation the context is cited very

22     precisely.  If you claim different, then I would like you to show me

23     instance by instance.  But I would like your leave for me to give you a

24     full answer.

25        Q.   I'm going to go through many instances today.

Page 39633

 1             And I continue on.  In paragraph 68 of your shelling report,

 2     which is 1D05498, you indicate that Captain Verdy determined the

 3     direction of fire for two of the shells as 4200 mills and 4250 mills

 4     which correspond to 236 degrees and 239 degrees with a margin of error of

 5     plus or minus 5 degrees.

 6             The direction of fire that you appear to have estimated based on

 7     the materials available to you were 238 degrees and 240 degrees.  I'm

 8     locating that in paragraphs 68 and 70 of your report.

 9             Your estimates are within the margin of error of those determined

10     by Captain Verdy; correct?

11        A.   It only means that our assessment was sound.  For precision's

12     sake, I would kindly ask that we rely on professional jargon.  It is not

13     mills.  The unit is called 1.000th part which is different from a mill.

14     Just so that nobody would later on try to convert the mills into degrees

15     and then declare this a mistake.  That unit is used in artillery and it

16     is called the thousandth part it is determined by the 360 degrees in a

17     circle which in one system that is used, amounts to 6.000th units whereas

18     in the western system, the number of thousandths is 6.400.

19        Q.   I asked you a very simple question.  Your determinations of

20     238 degrees and 240 degrees is within the margins of error that

21     Captain Verdy determined; correct?

22        A.   If you followed, I said that our assessment was sound.  They were

23     made -- that assessment was made in Klare Cetkin Street number 4 based on

24     material evidence rather than photographs.

25             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Ms. Subotic, I

Page 39634

 1     take it that you consider your own estimates to be sound.  But the

 2     question was a different one, whether your estimate stayed within a

 3     margin of error what was established by Mr. Sabljica.  Is it within those

 4     margins of error, or is it not?

 5             MR. WEBER:  Mr. Verdy.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Verdy --

 7             MR. WEBER:  Captain --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I apologise.  Is it or is it not?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The values we came up with

10     are extremely close to his.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes that's an answer to the question.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

13             MR. WEBER:

14        Q.   In the report of Captain Verdy - admitted as D178 - Captain Verdy

15     indicates that the direction of fire that impacted number 4 Klare Cetkin

16     Street where five individuals were killed is 4200 mills, or 236 degrees,

17     and for the shell that impacted number 3 Cetinjska Street, is 4250 mills,

18     or 239 degrees correct?

19        A.   Yes, that is correct.

20        Q.   In figure 62 of your report, at page 114, you inverse the

21     measurements taken by Captain Verdy in his UNPROFOR report and indicate

22     that the direction of fire for the shell that impacted on Klare Cetkin

23     Street was 239 degrees and the one on Cetinjska Street was 236 degrees.

24     You did this; right?

25        A.   Yes, we did it based on the material evidence following the

Page 39635

 1     explosion of the mine at the site of impact.

 2        Q.   At paragraph 71 of your report, pages 112 to 113, you claim that

 3     Captain Verdy made a mistake when he recorded the direction of fire of

 4     the two shells and that he inverted the measurements of the two craters.

 5             Without inverting the direction of fire that you did, the

 6     direction of fire for the two shells would not converge but actually they

 7     would diverge; correct?

 8        A.   That is correct.  But they cannot remain the same because of the

 9     traces left by the shells on asphalt when they impacted.  Each shell

10     leave a distinct mark based on the direction of trajectory and based on

11     that, we concluded that without any doubt Captain Verdy made his

12     measurements based on the bearings found on some photographs that were

13     actually taken in mistake, that they were not the accurate photographs.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33189.

15        Q.   This is an annotated map that you saw during your last time here.

16     On this map, there are two black lines representing the direction of fire

17     of 239 and 236 degrees corresponding to Captain Verdy's measurements.

18     There are also two lightly shaded yellow cones which overlap and form a

19     darker yellow shaded area.

20             Do you agree that the possible directions of fire calculated by

21     Captain Verdy would fall within the yellow ranges indicated on this map,

22     based on plus or minus 5 margin of error that he determined?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   In your report, you assume - and I put to you without any

25     support - that these two rounds came from the same mortar.  Now even

Page 39636

 1     assuming that this is true, these rounds would have come from a mortar in

 2     the darker yellow shaded area, correct, where the two cones overlap?

 3        A.   It is professionally impermissible for me to allow you such

 4     comments.  In the course of this entire procedure, which has taken

 5     between 15 and 20 years now, there has been no investigator who would

 6     agree that -- who would not agree that the shells were fired from one and

 7     the same tube.  We have technical facts that -- to support that thesis

 8     and all of the shells landed within only one possible deviation degree

 9     per distance which is something that would be impossible to do if there

10     were more tubes than one.

11             Of course there must be certain corrections between two shells in

12     order to have them hit Klare Cetkin and Cetinjska Street in terms of

13     direction.  Expert Higgs agrees with us that corrections were made in

14     terms of distance.

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... ma'am, my question was much

16     more simple and I would appreciate if you would answer it.

17             If -- the two shots were fired from the same mortar, that mortar

18     would fall into the darker yellow shaded area on what we see before us;

19     correct?

20        A.   Kindly explain to me where you think that would -- that would be

21     the case.  I don't see the point.

22        Q.   If you don't see the point -- at transcript page 39267, you

23     indicated that Captain Verdy's determination of direction of fire

24     conflicted with the direction of fire determined by the CSB investigators

25     who said that the shells came from the direction of the Nedzarici school

Page 39637

 1     for the blind.

 2             I would kindly ask that you be handed an a pen, and I'm going to

 3     ask you to mark this image before us based on your own personal

 4     knowledge, if you could please mark the location of the Nedzarici school

 5     for the blind with an X.  Not based on anything -- aside, ma'am, from

 6     your own personal knowledge.  I believe you've indicated that you've gone

 7     to this location.

 8        A.   Of course.  I visited all of the locations.  There's no problem

 9     there.  But they need to be put back on the map.

10             It should be around here, somewhere.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't see any marking.  Could the usher assist.

12             Apparently there's some technical problem in the marking.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I can come back to it quickly later

14     today then.  Just have her mark on that quickly.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we perhaps already -- one second,

16     please.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It will be repaired over the break most likely, but

19     could we already with the assistance of the usher, can we have the

20     witness indicate where the witness thinks the school for the blind is by

21     using the cursor.

22             Could you assist, Ms. Subotic, you see the arrow which is the

23     cursor?  Could you give instructions so as to move it to where the school

24     of the blind is.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 39638

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you say to the left, up, down?  Could you

 2     please assist the usher.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It should be to the right.  Right.

 4     Not left.  A bit more up.  To the right.  Just behind the red line on the

 5     right-hand side.  To the right.  Down.  Right.  Slowly.  Right, right.

 6             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] More.

 8             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A bit up.  There.  More or less.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             The witness points at a -- one second.  One second, please.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It should be there, approximately.

13     As far as I recall it on this map.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness points at a place which is to the right

15     of where a road is marked 18 E 762052 to the right of that and a little

16     bit up, just south -- just a little bit below where the road is called

17     Stupsko Brdo but still within the red dotted line.  As a matter of fact,

18     the pointer exactly at a road which is parallel to Stupsko Brdo just

19     parallel, just below where that can be read just a bit north of a complex

20     of what seems to be buildings, that is, black small blocks.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   Ms. Subotic, this is --

24        A.   Perhaps even a bit higher up north, because the bearing of the

25     home for the blind is 266, so almost clear west as opposed to -- compared

Page 39639

 1     to the place of the incident.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you again look at the cursor and give

 3     directions.  Is it at the right place now?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's say it is correct.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, not let's say, but is it correct, as far as your

 6     recollection goes?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I recall, it is accurate.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We can make a screen shot, including the cursor.

 9             Madam Registrar, could you take care that a screen shot is made.

10     It is.

11             MR. WEBER:  And Your Honours, I tender that into evidence.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I must say that my technical knowledge, I

13     think it should be uploaded first and then once the screen shot has ...

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar tells me that this is sufficient for

17     having it tendered into evidence.

18             Madam Registrar, the number would be.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  P7553, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   Ms. Subotic, the area that you've indicated, I put to you, is

24     actually much further to the north than the actual school for the blind,

25     and you have indicated an incorrect location.

Page 39640

 1        A.   I wouldn't say so.  Since where we see the figures 8s, that is

 2     the place of the incident.  The institute for the blind has the bearing

 3     of 266 compared to the buildings we considered.  So we can take it as

 4     being the west.

 5        Q.   Okay.  You measured that 266?  Is that your determination that

 6     it's 266 degrees as a bearing from the location of the incident?

 7        A.   Yes.  We took it off Google Earth.  If you followed

 8     Mr. Sabljica's transcript, he agreed with it in his testimony in the

 9     Karadzic case.

10        Q.   I think you're aware that we dispute that.

11             I'd like to discuss more incidents with you here.  Moving on in

12     your report, you comment upon four shellings in the area of Dobrinja

13     between 1993 and 1995.  These are the explosions on 1 June 1993, incident

14     G-4; 4 February 1994, incident G-7; and two unscheduled incidents on 12

15     July 1993 and 18 June 1995, both at water distribution points?

16             On all of the occasions, the explosions were caused by mortar

17     impacts; correct?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   Focussing on the shelling of the football match on 1 June 1993,

20     scheduled incident G-4, you conclude that the direction of fire for this

21     incident was in the south-easterly direction; I'd refer you to

22     paragraph 41 of your report.  On this trajectory, the furthest distance

23     the shell could have been fired from ABiH territory was 200 metres;

24     correct?

25        A.   Why do you think it is the furthest distance?  The separation

Page 39641

 1     lines were quite close there, weren't they?

 2        Q.   Ms. Subotic --

 3        A.   In figure 30 --

 4        Q.   Ms. Subotic, please listen to my question carefully again.

 5             On the trajectory that you claim, the furthest distance the shell

 6     could have been fired from ABiH territory was 200 metres; correct?

 7        A.   No.  According to the map provided by Ismet Hadzic where he

 8     marked the separation lines, we could see that the distance to the

 9     trenches was 270 metres rather than 200.  We provided that in figure 36.

10             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33117,

11     e-court page 16.

12        Q.   This is your past testimony in the Karadzic case.

13             At transcript page 20, you were asked:

14             "Q.  Well, and the trajectory you concluded was the

15     south-easterly trajectory.  So I'm saying that if it was fired from this

16     trajectory, from ABiH territory, the furthest distance it could have been

17     fired from is 200 metres from the incident.  Are we agreed on that?"

18             Your answer was:

19             "Yes."

20             That was your previous answer; correct?

21        A.   Yes.  That information was specified by different witnesses.  We

22     checked it and compared it to the map and came up with 270 rather than

23     200.  I think it to be a more precise piece of information.

24        Q.   A distance of 200 to 250 metres would be on or near the

25     confrontation line; correct?

Page 39642

 1        A.   Yes.  We are talking here about the positions close to the

 2     separation lines, much as we discussed the position of 400 metres, which

 3     was the closest one, and sheltered when viewing from the separation line.

 4     As you could probably notice in the captions above and below the

 5     photograph in paragraph 45.  It is the closest point possible to the

 6     existing positions at the confrontation lines.  Or, rather, the -- to the

 7     border cases possible.

 8        Q.   When you visited this location in 2010, the craters were born

 9     down from vehicle and foot traffic along with erosion over time; correct?

10        A.   Yes.  We attached photographs showing what they looked like

11     precisely.

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I see we're at the time for a break.  I

13     was just about to go into a new exhibit.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We are at the time for a break.

15             Ms. Subotic, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  You may

16     now follow the usher.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I was informed that the screen shot didn't work

22     either, so perhaps the marking should be briefly now be done by marking

23     it on the screen because I do understand that the problem that existed

24     earlier has now been fixed.

25             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And I believe up on the

Page 39643

 1     screen is 65 ter 33189, unmarked.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we can do it right away.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, could you stay with the witness because

 5     the screen shot didn't work and, therefore, we'll -- Mr. Weber will

 6     invite the witness to mark again where the school for the blind is.

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   Ms. Subotic, I believe we've resolved our technical difficulties.

 9     If could you please on the image that's before you mark an X at the

10     location where you believe the Nedzarici school for the blind is located.

11        A.   [Marks]

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would

13     tender 65 ter 33189 as marked by the witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think what we should do is to vacate the

15     number that was assigned earlier because the screen shot didn't work and

16     that, Madam Registrar, under the same number now we'll decide on

17     admission of this map marked by the witness.  That would ...

18             THE REGISTRAR:  P7553, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P7553 is now the map, and I think you gave the

20     number a second ago, Mr. Weber.  That is -- let me see, 33189 as now

21     marked by the witness.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   Ms. Subotic --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and, of course, that's admitted.

Page 39644

 1             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   As you indicated in your past testimony, you are aware that there

 3     are different maps that use different grid systems; correct?

 4        A.   I don't understand what you are trying to say with this

 5     "different grid systems."  I know there are different maps but I don't

 6     understand what you mean by different grid systems.  Maps are more or

 7     less with the same grid systems, only the scales differ between maps.

 8        Q.   In your past testimony at transcript page 38410, you stated:  "As

 9     far as I know, there are two systems.  We checked both and we could not

10     find the grid references that would correspond with the location of the

11     parking lot."

12             Next question was:

13             "And what's the basis for your conclusion that there are only two

14     grid systems in the world?"

15             Your answer was:  "I am aware of two grid systems which depend on

16     the number of figures which you read when you do the analysis."

17             You are aware that there are different grid systems; correct?

18        A.   Oh, that's what you mean.  Yes.

19        Q.   According to figure 30 and footnote 131 on e-court page 66 of

20     your report, you plotted the grid co-ordinate provided by Captain Houdet

21     on a series 903 map; correct?  If you could please particularly check

22     footnote 131?

23        A.   Excuse me, the footnote was?  I was looking for the picture that

24     I had forgotten.  I'm sure not sure I heard the number of the footnote.

25        Q.   131.

Page 39645

 1        A.   Yes?

 2        Q.   This is a very familiar map to this Chamber.  It is, for the

 3     record, included on multiple occasions in the Sarajevo map book as the

 4     base map, Exhibit P3.  My question to you, did you realise when you were

 5     doing your report that the scale for the series 903 map is 1 to 12.500?

 6        A.   I think I saw that.  I don't remember.  I don't remember that

 7     detail.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have the -- could we have that map on our

 9     screen because I see a map black-and-white version that mention made of a

10     green circle but in black and white, green is not easy to detect.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is 1D5498.

12             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honour, I'm actually moving on to another

13     exhibit to look at another map.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But, nevertheless, I would like to have a look

15     at what you have drawn our attention to on figure 30.  I just wanted to

16     have a brief look at that.  And that's -- I don't have the -- it's in the

17     English version, it's page 66 --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Picture 30.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that's not an e-court number perhaps.

20             MR. LUKIC:  It's page 62 in English.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

22             Could we enlarge the map.  I think we had the map -- we had the

23     map a second ago.  This is 26.  Could we move onto --

24             MR. WEBER:  I believe it was e-court page 66.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's hard copy page 66 as well.  Yes.  Could we zoom

Page 39646

 1     in on the map itself.  Yes, now I see the green circle.

 2             Yes, please proceed.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P644 for

 4     the witness.  And if we could please go to page 9 of the English original

 5     and page 8 of the B/C/S translation.

 6        Q.   This is Captain Houdet's report which is attached as Annex A to

 7     the 7 July 1993 UN investigation report with two other documents as part

 8     of that annex.  Did you review the full UN investigation report for this

 9     incident?

10        A.   This, certainly, yes.

11        Q.   We'll go through some additional materials in a second.

12             While we're on it, you're aware that Captain Houdet's report

13     refers to two craters; correct?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   At the top of Captain Houdet's report, we see the grid reference

16     and then "map 1/50.000 Sarajevo, sheet 27821, series M709."

17             Captain Houdet used a different series map with a different scale

18     than the one in your report; correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Could you not find a series M709 map or a grid map with a 1 to

21     50.000 scale when you were doing your report?

22        A.   We provided the map that we had at our disposal, the only one we

23     were able to find.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the next page of

25     the original only of this exhibit.  In the English, is the original.  And

Page 39647

 1     if we could make this the full screen, please, and if we could please

 2     rotate it.  There we go.  Ooh.

 3        Q.   This is the map attached to Captain Houdet's report which is part

 4     of the same annex.  In the upper right-hand corner, you see the scale

 5     1 to 50.000; correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   Could we please zoom -- actually, there should be fine.

 8             Do you see the numerical references for the longitude and

 9     latitude grid lines, the -- they appear across the middle of the document

10     on the grid lines, running horizontally, and they're a little bit off to

11     the left of centre, running vertically on the grid lines?  You see those;

12     right?

13        A.   84, 85, et cetera.  That's what you mean.  Those are the numbers

14     we see here.

15        Q.   Do you see the location marked at the point of impact on this map

16     where the two lines representing the direction of fire converge from the

17     south-east?  The top line runs through the number 55 on its way towards

18     Dobrinja.  The lower line runs through the number 54 on its way to

19     Dobrinja from the south-east.

20        A.   Yes.  I cannot see 55 to be honest, but I see a line -- oh, yes,

21     I see it here now.

22        Q.   The point of impact is marked approximately in the centre and a

23     little bit to the left, in the grid corresponding to 87 on the horizontal

24     axis and 56 on the vertical axis; correct?

25        A.   87 on the vertical axis ...

Page 39648

 1        Q.   On the horizontal axis.

 2        A.   I'm sorry, it's very difficult to read these numbers.

 3        Q.   Okay.  The location of the point of impact on this map does not

 4     correspond to the location you marked on a completely different series

 5     map; correct?  That's what we see --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If the witness should say something about the

 7     difference between two maps she should first be able to find the point of

 8     impact as shown in this map.  Perhaps we can zoom in on the upper

 9     left-hand corner of the map.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But still such that -- yes.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   Ma'am, if you could please draw your attention to the screen.

13     You can see where the point of impact is on -- before us; correct?

14        A.   I'm sorry, I just read the co-ordinates given in the report.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you found the point of impact?  That's the

16     question, as plotted on this map.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The way it is drawn into this map,

18     yes.  But I cannot read, I cannot find the numbers given by Captain Verdy

19     [as interpreted] on this map.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I perhaps briefly assist you.  Do you see the

21     numbers which are to the bottom left.  It says -- close to the cursor, it

22     says 84, then next line is 85, then 86, 87, 88, 89.  And if you now from

23     89 move up, you see the first -- the first line is 54, the second is 55,

24     the third is 56.  And then the following is 57.

25             Have you find [sic] your -- these numbers on the map?

Page 39649

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   The location of the point of impact on this map does not

 5     correspond to the location that you marked on the different series map;

 6     right?

 7        A.   To the extent I can find my way around this map that I'd never

 8     seen before, let's say that it's correct, with the proviso that in this

 9     report it says that both shells fell on macadam surface within this

10     playground and this residential building, this is not indicated.  In any

11     case, we determined it was 200 metres from the --

12        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

13        A.   -- from the grounds where a football match was played.

14        Q.   Ma'am, we know what your report says.  If you could please focus

15     on the questions and answer the questions only and we'll move along.

16             I'd like to turn your attention to the video from the local media

17     correspond and related to this incident which was filmed after the

18     shelling on 1 June 1993.  You have seen part of it during your direct

19     examination.  At this time --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could we first establish whether the

21     witness agrees?  Because that was your question because she marked the

22     point of impact at a location different from the one we saw on the map

23     used at the time as part of the report.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Ma'am, did you hear His Honour's comment?

Page 39650

 1        A.   No, I can only check in the afternoon what the difference is

 2     between this map and the map that we used and what the influence is, if

 3     any, of this map on our conclusion.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if I look at this map, it looks as if the

 5     point of impact as plotted in the report made at the time is just below,

 6     south of the main road leading to Lukavica, whereas the centre of the

 7     green circle which you plotted as the point of impact is north of that

 8     road, above that road.

 9             Would you agree with that.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now the question was whether you plotted it at

12     a different place as was done at the time in this report made

13     contemporaneously.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now my question - a very short question - would be:

16     You said I have never seen that report but that map was part of a report

17     at the time.  Does that mean that did you not look at that report?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I reviewed everything that was

19     available to me from this package relating to this incident, and all of

20     that is cited in my report.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And that map was part of the report which you said a

22     map you had never seen before and was not available to you.  Is that well

23     understood?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's well understood.  I did not

25     see it before.

Page 39651

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Though being part of the report which was made at

 2     the time.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very often we received only partial

 4     documents, documents that were not complete and related to different

 5     reports of different incidents.  Some things came to us in a complete

 6     package; others didn't.  And that's nothing unusual in our job.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you make mention of that in your report, that

 8     you did not have access to the full information from the report which you

 9     referred to in your report.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you have probably seen, in some

11     incidents, we did indicate that something was missing; in others, we did

12     not.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you do it in this instance?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe in this specific incident

15     we did not.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:  I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to now play 65 ter

19     33095A.  For the record there's been a provisional exhibit number

20     reserved for it which is I believe is D1250.  But the parties have to

21     work out the agreed full timing of the clip.  It is the local video

22     footage after the shelling on 1 June 1993.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You play which part?

24             MR. WEBER:  We're going to -- if I could just have two seconds

25     into the -- actually, I'm going to play the first ten seconds of the

Page 39652

 1     video.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you just repeat the 65 ter number.

 3             MR. WEBER:  This is 33095A.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. WEBER:  We are paused at 11 seconds -- 11 and a half seconds

 7     into the video-clip.

 8        Q.   The image on the screen is similar to the images that you place

 9     in your report from this video; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Directing your attention to the upper left corner of this image

12     that is now on the screen, you agree that one of the goals is visible

13     between the red and blue cars correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In this part of the video, you cannot see the second goal;

16     correct?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   You also do not see a second row of cars; correct?

19        A.   Correct.  If there is a second row of cars.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could we please play the video another six seconds.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. WEBER:  If we could please play another two seconds.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. WEBER:  There we go.  We are now paused at 19.3 seconds into

25     the video-clip.

Page 39653

 1        Q.   We see a row of cars.  There's no blue car in this row.  And the

 2     cars appear to be positioned differently; correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   In front of the second car from the left, you see another

 5     football goal there; correct?

 6        A.   I apologise, which second car?  You mean the red car, the second

 7     red car or white and then red?  I can't see very well.

 8        Q.   I'm referring you to the second red car from the left.  If you

 9     focus immediately in -- towards us from that car where the passenger door

10     would be.  There's a second goal there; correct?

11        A.   On the opposite side.  I'm sorry, the picture is unclear.  I

12     could not say that it's the second goal, but if we could focus better

13     maybe, so we can distinguish things more clearly, maybe I can agree.

14             MR. WEBER:  If we could back up two seconds on the video.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. WEBER:  And I'm going to play it for four seconds.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18        Q.   Are you able to see the second goal in front of the car?

19        A.   There is something in front of the car, but I cannot seriously

20     conclude, unlike with the previous picture, that it is that.  It seems to

21     me too close to the car, or maybe that's the way this video is.

22        Q.   You agree that we're looking at another row of cars from the

23     direction of the goal at the opposite end of the pitch; correct?

24        A.   That, yes.

25             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I'm not going to tender at this time,

Page 39654

 1     pending agreement with the Defence as to what should be included.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think the number has been reserved already

 3     and you would like to add the first 20-plus 03 seconds of this video.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I believe that the Defence showed two

 5     portions of the video one from before what we see on the screen and one

 6     from after what we saw on the screen so if we could -- I think what we'll

 7     agree to is one full segment that includes images that were shown just

 8     now and images that were shown after by the Defence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You say you started at 0 seconds.

10             MR. WEBER:  Correct.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So what was shown before that is that minus or.

12             MR. WEBER:  It was starting at the same time code.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  I see that you mean the part shown by the

14     Defence was a portion which precedes what you have drawn our attention to

15     now.

16             Please proceed.

17             I still have another small question.

18             If we look at figure 30, Witness, who did plot the numbers 8739

19     and 5653 and the green circle?  Who did that?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We drew that to put in the

21     co-ordinates and indicate the place and the co-ordinates given by

22     Captain Verdy in the basic report on the map that we cited below.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Now are those grid references given on that map?  I

24     mean, in general?  Which enabled you to plot it as you did?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those are the grid references cited

Page 39655

 1     in the report.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not what I asked you.  I asked you where you

 3     plotted those grid references, whether they are found such a grid system

 4     on the map on which you plotted them and drew a green circle?  Or did you

 5     implant from any other map, the grid references?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, those are the co-ordinates, the

 7     grid references that correspond to the red circle.  And read from this

 8     map where they are drawn.  The source of these numbers is in the report.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the last thing she

10     said.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last thing you said.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The numeric source of these

13     co-ordinates is in the report of Captain Boudet [as interpreted].

14             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was from where did you take the grid

15     references in general.  Did you take them from the map on which you then

16     finally plotted the grid references as given by Verdy, or did you take

17     them from somewhere else?

18             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, sorry to interrupt.  I believe on this

19     incident it is Captain Houdet.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Houdet.  I'm mixing up all the French names, and I

21     apologise for that.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You took them from this map?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The numbers were taken from the

25     report numerically speaking.  He provided the co-ordinates of the

Page 39656

 1     incident.  On this map, according to its scale, the co-ordinates are

 2     marked in green in the green circle.  I don't know how better to explain.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, in order to plot something on a map, if you

 4     have certain numbers, you need to know what grid system is used in the

 5     map which you mark.

 6             My question is whether the grid system, whether you took that

 7     from the map you used or did you take it from anywhere else?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The co-ordinates shown in the

 9     report, in terms of numbers, were found on the map we used and marked in

10     a red circle.  They were numerically identified as to be able to

11     establish a link with the report.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

13             Please proceed.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             MR. WEBER:

16        Q.   In your discussion of the G-4 shelling, you criticise

17     Richard Higgs for agreeing with Captain Houdet's conclusion as to range

18     and at the end of paragraph 42 of your report, you indicate that

19     Mr. Higgs's conclusion is a sign of bias.

20             From your past testimony, you are aware that Expert Higgs

21     performed an independent analysis related to the crater; correct?

22        A.   Of course I'm familiar with that, and we cite his analysis.  He

23     made use of the same analysis of the crater that we did.  He concluded

24     that there was no reason to analyse further because he saw it only in

25     2001, much after it had happened.  He could see two traces in the field

Page 39657

 1     where, in 1995, there were none.

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 3        A.   -- I think he should have taken all of that into account and not

 4     only the report --

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... please stay focussed on my

 6     questions, and I'm going to go through it as to what happened the last

 7     time you were asked about this.

 8             Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33117 for the witness.

 9     And if we could please go to page 23.

10             This is your past testimony in the Karadzic case where you were

11     discussing paragraph 42 of your report.  Starting at line 3, you were

12     asked:

13             "Q.  Certainly I can do that.  Let me ask it this way.  Mr. Higgs

14     in his Galic testimony concluded when he looked at the crater that it

15     must have come in at an angle of between -- an angle of descent of

16     between 50 and 70 degrees.  So my question for you is:  If he was correct

17     and, in fact, the maximum angle of descent was 70 degree, it's true, is

18     it not, that the mortar would have to have been fired from the SRK side

19     of the confrontation line?  Do you agree with that?

20             "A.  I will agree with you if I look at the tables because I

21     really don't know this by heart, the angles of descent and whether we

22     provided them in this document or not.  I have to have a look at the

23     angles.  I really don't know the tables off the top of my head."

24             Do you stand by this testimony.

25        A.   Of course I do.  I really don't know the tables by heart, and

Page 39658

 1     please don't expect me to.  I don't know all the numerical parts off the

 2     top of my head.

 3        Q.   Your report in this case is dated April 2014, after this

 4     testimony.  When you completed this report for this case, you were aware

 5     of Mr. Higgs's conclusion that, based on what he looked at at the crater,

 6     that the angle of descent was between 50 to 70 degrees; correct?

 7        A.   That is correct.  It was his conclusion.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours -- oh, I see it was just corrected.

 9        Q.   You do not mention Mr. Higgs's conclusion on the angle of descent

10     being between 50 and 70 degrees in your Mladic report, do you?

11        A.   No, we did not.  We mentioned Witness John Hamill who said that

12     it was 65 degrees.  We agree that it was the approximate angle.

13        Q.   You also do not include Mr. Higgs's testimony on 4 November 2013

14     in this case - and I'm referring to transcript page 18762 - where you

15     indicated that he looked at the crater and the angle of descent based on

16     his personal observations using the range tables gave him a minimum range

17     of 300 metres.  You don't reference that in your report either; right?

18        A.   Obviously.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P7549, page

20     54 of the B/C/S and page 80 of the English translation.

21        Q.   Okay.  These are the 82-millimetre mortar tables again.  First

22     let's determine the mills that correspond to the maximum angle of descent

23     of 70 degrees I'm going to do this based on the 1 to 6.000 mills

24     calculation.  If I could direct your attention to the fourth column to

25     the left, there is a number 70 under the column for degrees.  And then

Page 39659

 1     one column over to the right, it states 1166.67.  70 degrees corresponds

 2     to 11166.67 mills; correct?

 3        A.   Of thousandths, not of mills.

 4        Q.   Okay.  You do realise that the tables do refer to mills; correct

 5     and I understand it's on a 1 to 6.000 calculation.  If we could move on

 6     to page 12 of both versions --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, we find both; isn't it?

 8             MR. WEBER:  Correct.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So whether this table refers to --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  I was -- we find here, if I understand

12     well, a translation of both western, which if I understand well, is 1 to

13     6400, and eastern, that is 1 to 6.000 mills, into degrees.  That's what

14     we find here.  So to say that -- to say that it's 1 on a 6.000

15     calculation, that is true for those columns where it says at the top:

16     1-6.000.

17             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. WEBER:  I think we're both understood.  Could the Prosecution

20     please go to page 12 of both versions.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the witness would like to add something.

22             Please.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a moment ago what it was.

24     Yes, just a while ago, I tried to distinguish between mills and

25     thousandths because it is an artillery aspect in use.  All tables are

Page 39660

 1     more or less provided in thousandths as well as all of the sighting

 2     devices which use that unit.  We have a full circle of 360 degrees, in

 3     one system it equals 6.000s, in the other 6.400 thousandths it is may not

 4     be directly related to mills --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a matter of terminology I -- from what I

 6     understood from the evidence, that what you call thousandths are often

 7     referred to as mills in the eastern system, whereas the 1 to 6400 is

 8     often referred to as the mills in the western system, or the mills, if

 9     I -- and I think that is clear in table 8a where the conversion of

10     degrees into thousands, thousands which are here including both 1 to

11     6.000 and 1 to 6400.

12             I think there's no disagreement on what the table tells us.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 12 of both

15     versions.

16        Q.   This is the table for the 82-millimetre M74 on zero charge.

17     Directing your attention to column 9, if you could go down in that

18     column.  Do you see the listing for 1149 right below the zero on the

19     page?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Going over to the far left column this angle of descent, which is

22     roughly around 69 degrees, would correspond to range of 325 metres;

23     correct?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   The line above corresponds to a range of 300 metres; correct?

Page 39661

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   I appreciate it's --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you said for the 325 you have around 69

 4     degrees.  What I see for 325 is 67 --

 5             MR. WEBER:  I'm sorry.  I misspoke.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- degrees and for the one further up, 69 degrees --

 7             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, actually, I think that's the firing

 8     angle.  Not necessarily the angle of descent.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do agree with you.  If we look at 9.  Let's

10     have a look at 9.  9 is the angle of descent.  And that is apparently in

11     mills again.

12             MR. WEBER:  Correct.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And then the question is what kind of mills?

14             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour [Overlapping speakers] ...

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it's all 1 to 6.000 because that is found in

16     columns 3 and 4, where degrees that the conversion of the mills in

17     degrees stems from -- from the 1 to 6.000 type of mill and therefore you

18     say it's reasonable to expect that the angle of descent equally uses the

19     same mills rather than the other system.

20             Is that ...

21             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  And on the previous page that we

22     just looked at we see that 69 degrees is a little bit -- is one one

23     thousandths above this.  It 1150 thousandths in the 1 to 6.000 scale.

24     That's where I'm getting the information from.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

Page 39662

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   An angle of descent of 70 degrees would correlate to a range of

 3     around 300 to 325 metres; correct.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'm about to head into a new incident.

 6     I can keep on going.  I'll just keep going for a couple of minutes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We have five minutes left.  If you'd rather than do

 8     it one stretch then perhaps it would be better to take the break now --

 9             MR. WEBER:  Yes --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- rather than to interrupt it halfway.

11             Ms. Subotic, we'll take another break.  We'd like to see you back

12     in 20 minutes.  You may follow the usher.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes past midday.

15                           --- Recess taken at 11.45 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 12.09 p.m.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21        Q.   Ms. Subotic, turning your attention to incident G-7, the shelling

22     of a queue for humanitarian assistance in Dobrinja on 4 February 1994,

23     the craters had changed by the time of your visit in 2010.  One of the

24     areas on the playground was paved over, and the area where all of the

25     people were lined up still had damage on the building but the crater was

Page 39663

 1     no longer there; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 3        Q.   One of your criticisms - and I'm referring to paragraph 83 of

 4     your report - is that a sketch of the scene in the investigation file

 5     does not have north marked correctly on it.  You indicate that it has an

 6     error of 60 degrees and then you wrote:  "As a consequence of this error

 7     in determining the north, the incoming trajectory was also determined

 8     erroneously."

 9             At the end of the paragraph, however, you write:  "At first

10     sight, the error made in marking the north on the sketch of the scene may

11     appear accidental and immaterial but the final conclusion must be

12     reserved until after we have analysed the manner in which the incoming

13     trajectory of the shells was determined and after we have verified

14     whether this error in determining the north has affected the conclusion

15     about the incoming direction of the shell."

16             If the sketch was not used in the process of determining the

17     incoming trajectory of the shells, then any error in marking the

18     direction of north on the sketch would be immaterial; correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P867, which

21     is the investigative file for this incident, and could we please go to

22     English page 12 and B/C/S page 11.

23        Q.   This is the forensic report for incident G-7 which tells you how

24     the direction was determined, and a little further down in -- under

25     item 4, the report says:  "Incoming direction of the mortar shell was

Page 39664

 1     determined with magnetic compass ..."

 2             You do not mention this fact in your report; correct?

 3        A.   That is not correct.  In this report we mention twice this type

 4     of determining direction, and we dispute it based on technical aspects or

 5     results of the shell at the place of impact and we also dispute it on the

 6     basis of a map and its position.  The map has a large scale, and as can

 7     be seen from the photograph, it was placed without any reference points.

 8     In that case you can position it whichever you want compared to a

 9     compass --

10        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

11        A.   -- I think you may have seen that in the report but I don't know

12     why you fail to mention it.

13        Q.   I'm going to go through what you didn't cite in the report.  You

14     are mentioning other items.  If, over the next break, you could just tell

15     me where you refer to this quote from the report that we have on the

16     screen that would be appreciated.

17             Could the Prosecution please have page 32 of the B/C/S version

18     only --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Can the witness have the quote on the screen printed

20     out for her because --

21             MR. WEBER:  Of course, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Because to ask her where to find it's mainly about

23     the magnetic compass being used for the determination.

24             Witness, you are invited to -- during the next break to find in

25     your report where you refer to determining the incoming direction of the

Page 39665

 1     mortar shell with a magnetic compass and I think the emphasis is on --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  If I may assist, Your Honour, it's on figure 77.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Figure 77.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it already.

 5             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it already.  It is the

 7     second paragraph following figure 75, where this type of determination is

 8     mentioned.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you've --

10             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I was trying to specifically refer to

11     the forensic report.  We see that she does refer to this photo which is

12     where I'm going next.

13        Q.   This is a photo from the photo file.  This is the photo that you

14     do refer to and it shows that the magnetic compass pointed and pointed to

15     the north, correct?  Along with the incoming trajectory of one of the

16     shells?

17             And maybe to assist the witness, we can zoom in on the compass.

18        A.   Yes.  And in your opinion, what can we see on the compass?  The

19     north?  I have no objection to it being so.  But it doesn't determine the

20     incoming trajectory and there is no reference point on the basis of which

21     the trajectory could be determined in that way.  The direction of north

22     is shown on a compass always the same way.

23        Q.   When you testified about this in the Karadzic case, you claim

24     that the individual who drew the sketch, Witness KDZ-166, agreed with

25     you.  You said:  "Due to this error of 60 degrees, they drew erroneous

Page 39666

 1     conclusions about the direction from which the shells had arrived.  I

 2     think that KDZ-166, the witness agreed with this when we presented to him

 3     the situation as depicted here."

 4             And this is at transcript page 38271 in the Karadzic case.

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6        Q.   Now, ma'am --

 7        A.   Sorry, I thought that was the question.

 8        Q.   Now ma'am -- you were also confronted with the language that

 9     KDZ-166 had actually used which was at transcript page 8297 of the

10     Karadzic trial where the witness was asked:  "Now we have a new northerly

11     direction so if you change it from 90 degrees to some 30 or 40 degrees,

12     does that affect the direction from which the shell came? "

13             The witness answered:  "No, it doesn't.  I did not plot the

14     direction onto my sketch from which the shell came because that part of

15     the work, that is, to establish the direction, was done by ballistics

16     experts."

17             In your present report in this case, you then don't make

18     reference to this fact, do you?

19        A.   As we said, it is irrelevant whether he determined the incoming

20     trajectory or not.

21             On the sketch --

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

23        A.   -- showing the place.

24        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Sabljica who is one of

25     the ballistics expert who investigated the scene was also asked about

Page 39667

 1     this and said the sketch was irrelevant to determining direction of fire.

 2     The reasons he gave was:  "Because what we did in our investigations had

 3     to do with the actual situation and the actual trace evidence found at

 4     the site."

 5             This is the Karadzic transcript, page 7800.

 6             You also leave this part of Mr. Sabljica's testimony out for this

 7     incident; correct?

 8        A.   Absolutely not.  As you just read, we stated here that we wanted

 9     to determine whether it has any importance that the sketch was drawn the

10     way it was drawn, whether it is -- it somehow influenced the conclusions.

11             We cited all the analyses we made of the material evidence and on

12     the basis of which we determined the incoming trajectory.  It was very

13     close to what the sketch shows.  But you know perfectly well, you have

14     seen it.  We made all our conclusions based on the material traces that

15     were on the scene and the material evidence in keeping with the rules of

16     the profession and science based on the documents that the investigators

17     made the next day, which does not detract from their relevance.

18        Q.   I get that's kind of your standard answer today.  But what I'd

19     like to specifically ask you is there's nothing in the investigative file

20     or anywhere else indicating that the sketch was actually used to

21     determine the incoming trajectory; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Another theory you have --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, one short question.  Does the witness

25     still have to try to find the use of the compass or were you just wrong

Page 39668

 1     in saying that -- in suggesting that it was not in her report.  Because I

 2     think in the footnote it clearly states - footnote 361 - where it is

 3     taken from.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I don't see reference to the report that

 5     I referred to in the footnotes --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  Footnote 361.  Close to the

 7     photograph --

 8             MR. WEBER:  I see.  I see.  The photo --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... no, but it also states

10     where the photo is taken from, isn't it?  Security service centre photo

11     documentation number 3 -- 234.  That's the footnote related to this

12     picture in which the use of a compass is shown.

13             MR. WEBER:  I understand what Your Honour is saying.  I'm not

14     going to persist on it, however, what I was asking was about is the

15     report which is a different document than this photo that's cited there.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But the witness has explained at least that

17     she even has shown in her report how a compass was used in this context

18     in order to determine the direction of the origin of fire.

19             MR. WEBER:  May I proceed?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may proceed.

21             MR. WEBER:

22        Q.   Another theory that you have is that four shells landed in the

23     immediate area of the humanitarian line, not three, but that the

24     investigators covered up - and I'm referring to your report

25     paragraph 81 - the fourth shell because it could shot from come from VRS

Page 39669

 1     positions; right?

 2        A.   Well, you know, no, it's not right.  It says here that this shell

 3     provides exclusive evidence that such fire could not have come from that

 4     direction.  That is to say, it rules out the possibility that this fire

 5     came in from the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska.  I understood

 6     you to be asking something different.  In fact, that's how I understood

 7     your question.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 80, you write:  "The photo file contains a shot

 9     showing the damage to the edge of the footpath which could not have been

10     caused by a shell exploding on the footpath but only from the shrapnel of

11     a shell that exploded in the playground."

12             And then you refer to a figure of your report.  I'd like to look

13     at the original photo.  Could we please Exhibit P867, page 24 of the

14     B/C/S version only.  And if the witness could be provided with assistance

15     in terms of a pen.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Just for the record, it's figure 67 from the report.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the picture taken from the

18     same material we are looking at right now.

19             MR. WEBER:

20        Q.   I wanted to start with the fresh image here.  Could you please

21     trace with a pen what you consider to be the shrapnel damage that could

22     not have been caused by the shell that hit the footpath.

23        A.   This damage is also marked in our report.  I will now mark it

24     again here.

25             As can be seen, this damage is at 90 degrees relative to the edge

Page 39670

 1     of the curb and since the shell came in from the right upper corner

 2     towards symbol 1, this is --

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... --

 4        A.   -- what is called in artillery a dead angle where shrapnel cannot

 5     arrive from the shell that exploded where the number 1 is.

 6             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the marked image into

 7     evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  The marked image receives exhibit number P7554,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

12             MR. WEBER:  If we could go to 65 ter 1D5498.  English page 136

13     and B/C/S page 132.

14        Q.   I want to turn your attention to figures 74 and 75 which look to

15     be both visible in the English version.  Here you appear to be

16     essentially saying that the pattern damage on the right-hand wall in the

17     alcove of the apartment building could not have occurred if the shell

18     came in from SRK positions.

19             In figure 74, you have what appears to be a wing pattern of shell

20     fragments that is empty towards the front in the direction of the part of

21     the wall.  My first question to you is:  These are two-dimensional images

22     that depict the area from above; correct?

23        A.   Yes, they are.

24        Q.   In reality, if we looked at the top image, for example, figure

25     74, from a horizontal perspective, showing the incoming angle of descent,

Page 39671

 1     the shrapnel of the mortar would disperse in 360 degrees and go outward

 2     toward the building striking the area under number 3; correct?

 3        A.   Sorry, but I don't think that's quite correct.

 4             First of all, what do we call the area under number 3?  What is

 5     that?  Mihajlo Pupin Street number 3?  Is that what you're trying to say.

 6        Q.   I'm just referring to it just because it's in the diagram.  Let

 7     me put it another way; if the mortar would be entering at a downward

 8     angle of 45 degrees or more, there would also be fragments that would

 9     project straight out in front of the shell; right?

10        A.   A shell cannot fall under 45 degrees or less.  A minimal angle of

11     descent for a 120-millimetre shell is 52 or 55 degrees.  There is no such

12     thing as 45 degrees or less.  That does not exist.  Mortar cannot hit at

13     such an angle.  It doesn't happen.

14        Q.   I was saying 45 degrees or more so if -- if a mortar fell at an

15     angle of descent of greater than 45 degrees, there would be fragments

16     that would project straight out in front of the shell; correct?

17        A.   Yes.  But very little, in a very small amount.  If you look at

18     the photographs which --

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

20        A.   -- depict a real picture you will see that it's not as you say.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... well, I would dispute that

22     and the Chamber has that evidence.  I want to keep on moving along.  If

23     you could please listen to my questions.

24             In paragraph 97 of your Markale report, you say:  "It is

25     well-known that the stabiliser penetrates the ground when it is fired

Page 39672

 1     with charge 3 or a higher charge.  When a mortar shell is fired with

 2     charge 1 or charge 2, the stabiliser falls in the immediate vicinity of

 3     the crater or it is propelled back along the approximate trajectory of

 4     the shell."

 5             In this instance with respect to the shell that hit near the

 6     building, you agree the 120-millimetre stabiliser was fully embedded in

 7     the crater on the asphalt surface; correct?

 8        A.   On figure 68, we see a stabiliser that fell in Mihajlo Pupin

 9     Street number 3 and it not fully embedded.  On the contrary.  It is lying

10     on the surface with deformations that show that during its descent it

11     changed positions, which means it had prior landing on a different

12     surface and that's one of the reasons why we did not accept that the real

13     incoming trajectory was properly determined using compass.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

15        A.   -- that's taken from the pictures made by the investigators

16     marked by 7.  That's the stabiliser we are talking about.

17        Q.   You agree that one of the mortar shells were embedded on this

18     instance; correct?

19        A.   Yes, that's the one that fell on the footpath.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let's focus on that one, and I'm sorry if I added to that

21     confusion there.

22             And as you acknowledged in the Karadzic case, according to the

23     firing tables for 120-millimetre mortars, this would indicate a minimum

24     firing distance of 600 metres for this shell, the one that was embedded;

25     correct?

Page 39673

 1        A.   If that is according to the firing tables, it is correct.

 2        Q.   You make some other comments in paragraph 88 of your shelling

 3     report about the images of the embedded stabiliser.  You indicate that

 4     the embedded stabiliser was at almost a vertical angle but the marks on

 5     the asphalt do not indicate that the shell was fired with the maximum

 6     elevation.  In other words, this means that, at the time of the explosion

 7     and as the stabiliser penetrated into the soil, its position changed.

 8             First of all, you -- the fact is that this was looked at as part

 9     of the investigation and the report drafted by Mr. Sabljica, who

10     personally inspected the site specifically, stated that this embedded

11     tail-fin was "facing east."

12             Right?

13        A.   I don't know whether what he saw is accurate and whether what he

14     wrote was accurate.  I don't want to go into that.  I know the way the

15     fins are turned has absolutely no technical relation to where the

16     projectile came from.

17             The link only exists and it is correct if the descent and the

18     position of the stabiliser coincides with the direction determined based

19     on the traces on the asphalt according to the central axis method.  If

20     these two directions coincide that's the only situation where you can

21     determine incoming trajectory based on the position of the stabiliser.

22     The only things mentioned there are absolutely unacceptable for the

23     reasons that are explained in detail in this report.  If you wish me to,

24     I can repeat them for the umpteenth time but it depends on a large number

25     of technical parameters that have to --

Page 39674

 1        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 2        A.   -- all be present for this to happen.

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I want to now discuss with

 4     you incident G-5 on the 12th of July, 1993 --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you move to another incident --

 6             MR. WEBER:  Sure.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- I have one question for the witness.  Can we

 8     have on the screen again, P7554, the photograph of the footpath where you

 9     indicated by a circle the impact of a shrapnel.

10             I can already put my question.  It will come up soon.  How did

11     you determine that this is the place where a shrapnel penetrated the

12     ground?  When you encircled this photograph, I couldn't quite follow why

13     you decided that this is a place of an impact of a shrapnel.  Can you

14     explain that further?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly.  Certainly.  If this is

16     the footpath, this is the surface where this defect, this damage is

17     located.  On that surface, it's absolutely -- when the shell falls here

18     and projects shrapnel normally, it's absolutely impossible for this

19     damage in this place to occur at 90 degrees.  Because all the damage, all

20     the projection of shrapnel, goes into the area ahead or laterally.  It

21     cannot be found on a surface which is 90 degrees to that surface, to the

22     other surface.  We call that in artillery a dead angle.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I stop you.  This is not what I asked you

24     for.

25             I wanted to know where we can see on this photograph that there

Page 39675

 1     is a damage caused by shrapnel.  I don't see a damage there.  On what

 2     observation did you base your claim that at this location there was a

 3     damage caused by a shrapnel?  I don't see anything there.  Did you use

 4     different information?  Have you visited the site?  Or what is it what

 5     you based your observation on?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly we visited the location.

 7     And when we visited the location, this footpath had been repaved.  You

 8     could not see it then.  We used this photograph where you see this little

 9     defect in the shape of an arch that I marked here.  If we looked even

10     more carefully, if we could analyse this photograph even better, we would

11     probably find other damage from shrapnel.

12             This is the impact of a larger piece of shrapnel that is visible.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In my view, there's nothing visible which could

14     indicate that there is a damage which is caused by shrapnel.

15             I just don't see anything like that.  And I wanted to ask you for

16     assistance so that I can really -- from this photograph, take that there

17     is a damage on the site of the footpath.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just explained this.  This is

19     this little arch pointing downwards and it's on the side of this curb.  I

20     marked it -- the way I marked it looks like a smiley.  This is the damage

21     that is very clearly seen on the photograph.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is your opinion.  Thank you.

23             Mr. Weber.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just ask you if you would look at it, I

25     think it may be some rubble that is there.  What makes you so sure that

Page 39676

 1     what you marked is, indeed, shrapnel traces rather than some rubble or

 2     whatever?  From this photograph.  And that's what we seek your

 3     assistance, to better -- you made an arc, but you can make an arc on

 4     rubble as well and ...

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a clear trace based on the

 6     rules of our profession.  There are several other traces that indicate

 7     impact on the edge of the playground in the photo documentation these

 8     points of impact are marked.  There is testimony to those points of

 9     impact.  There are traces on the ground that could not have been created

10     in any different way.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now you are explaining a lot of other things.

12     What we are seeking is your assistance to establish clearly that this is

13     not rubble but this is shrapnel impact.  And testimonies, et cetera, you

14     drew this conclusion on the basis of this photograph, and, therefore,

15     we're seeking your assistance to be able to better understand how you

16     could consider with certainty this to be shrapnel impacts.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, you have here,

18     right -- to the right, there is another trace of shrapnel.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, for what you say now, we would again put the

20     same question to you:  What makes you so certain about what looks as dark

21     and -- that that is shrapnel impact rather than anything else?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if you look at the upper

23     photograph, you will see that wherever shrapnel hit on this footpath, all

24     of these spots are dark, and we certainly know that the projectile did

25     land above.  Wherever there is violent deformation of the surface from

Page 39677

 1     shrapnel, all these spots are dark.  You will see the same dark spots on

 2     the footpath above.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's mainly because it's dark that explains that

 4     it's shrapnel impact rather than any other matter that could appear to be

 5     dark, such as rubble sometimes is as well.  Could have a dark colour as

 6     well, isn't it?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course it could be.  Certainly.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have one follow-up question.

 9             If this would be shrapnel impact, then apparently from another

10     explosion, because you say it could not have been caused by this

11     explosion.  Did you find anything about an explosion within, well, let's

12     say, a few metres from there which would have caused this shrapnel

13     impact, as you consider it to be?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.  We analysed this

15     explosion in great detail in this report.  In photo documentation, it is

16     marked as 1, and it is on the edge of the playground.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please answer my question.  Your claim is

18     that what you marked in red is, first of all, shrapnel impact; second,

19     not caused by the impact at number 1, if I understand you well?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Which raises the question as to what impact then

22     caused this shrapnel traces which could not have been caused by explosion

23     number 1.  Did you find anything to explain that on those days or just

24     before it or just after it, that another shell exploded at a very, very

25     short distance from number 1?

Page 39678

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We found that on that same day,

 2     there was an explosion on the edge of the playground, and this comes from

 3     that shell.  There were also witnesses in this case who spoke about it.

 4     That's the fourth shell that they did not investigate.  The

 5     investigators, I mean.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And what was exactly the distance between the point

 7     of impact and this shrapnel trace -- these shrapnel traces?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  I marked it the

 9     other day during examination.  Let me just open that page so you can

10     follow more easily too.

11             Here it is.  The picture, the still, taken from a video made by

12     the investigators, figure 66.  And figure 65.

13             On both of them, one can see that it's very close, looking down

14     that path, that is to say, along the playground.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  How close?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it can't be more than half

17     a metre, looking down the path.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   I now want to discuss with you incident G-5 on 12 July 1993.

22             In paragraph 62G of your report, you state:  "It is particularly

23     striking that although investigator Hamdija Cavcic that the reports of

24     the Bosnian police and UNPROFOR were made independently of each other,

25     UNPROFOR's report lists the names of the members of the Bosnian

Page 39679

 1     investigation team present there, and it is clear that the reports used

 2     the same data probably given by the Bosnian investigators to UNPROFOR

 3     which means that these two -- that these were not two independent reports

 4     whose results match."

 5             Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 11231 for the witness.

 6             And if we could go to page 2.

 7             This is the UNPROFOR report of its investigation.  Under the

 8     heading, "Crater Characteristics," it says:  "Form of the spray shows the

 9     direction of 5100 mills (WWN)."

10             That corresponds to 287 degrees; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   That direction of fire corresponds to the west, north-west;

13     correct?

14        A.   North-west, yes.

15        Q.   Nowhere in this report does it say that UNPROFOR, that their

16     calculation of the direction of fire came from data provided by the CSB;

17     right?

18        A.   It doesn't.  We did not even put it in our report that they

19     referenced it.

20             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 11231 into evidence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 11231 receives exhibit number P7555,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have exhibit --

Page 39680

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- I'm a bit puzzled by putting 287 degrees at

 2     north-west.  It's slightly north of north-west?  Yes, I -- because you

 3     said that "direction of fire corresponds to the west, north-west;

 4     correct?"

 5             So not to be understood as to the west of north-west but, rather,

 6     slightly to the north of north-west because it's more than 270 degrees

 7     which is west.

 8             MR. WEBER: [Microphone not activated]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I take that you do not disagree, Ms. Subotic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's fine.  It's north, north-west,

11     meaning that it is in the quadrant demarking north and west.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             Please proceed.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I made a mistake, as a matter of fact.  I

16     made a mistake.  287 is slightly west of north-west rather than --

17     because north-west would be 315.  Yes.  I apologise for making this

18     mistake and very kind of you, Ms. Subotic, to agree that it's in that

19     quadrant demarking north and west which avoids to comment on my mistake.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have D01251.  And if we

22     could please go to English page 6 and B/C/S page 10.

23        Q.   This is the portion of the investigative file containing the

24     report of the on-site ballistics investigation by Mr. Cavcic.  In the

25     B/C/S version, toward the bottom of the page, which is about two-thirds

Page 39681

 1     of the way down in the English version, you see the conclusion that the:

 2     "Traces form an irregular arc direction north-west west."

 3             And then if we could please have page 11 of the B/C/S, the next

 4     page.

 5             I'm sorry, if we can go back one.  There you go.

 6             Toward the end of the report, you see his conclusion regarding

 7     incoming direction of fire as north-west west.

 8             The fact is that the CSB assessment of direction of fire was done

 9     independently based on traces on the ground, not from data provided by

10     someone else; right?

11        A.   Members of the CSB investigation team were on the scene, and they

12     probably drafted this report we are looking at.  It is just that it is

13     quite unclear when someone writes that there are traces in the direction

14     of west north-west not linking it to any particular photograph.  I could

15     simply say --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

17     repeat the last sentence.

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

19             MR. WEBER:

20        Q.   Ma'am, I see that you're reading stuff back from your report.

21     Could you please answer my question.  That they independently --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do that.  The interpreters asked the

23     witness to repeat the last sentence.

24             You said at a certain moment:  "I could simply say," and could

25     you repeat from what you then said.

Page 39682

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could simply say that it is not

 2     orientated whatsoever.  Because if you put it that way, it could be

 3     placed in any which direction, not supported by any photographs or other

 4     evidence.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   According to the CSB investigation on-site report that you have

 7     in front of you, they determined the direction of fire based on traces on

 8     the grounds.  That's what we read here; right?

 9        A.   That is correct.  However, the traces on the scene do not

10     indicate that.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could we please go into private session briefly.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 39683

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19             Witness, we'll soon take a break - not immediately - but you

20     already may follow the usher.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I promised to prepare

22     something for you over the break.  I don't know whether you still want it

23     and I would kindly ask the Prosecutor what it is that I had to prepare.

24     There was a quote, I think?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 39684

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A quote of ours that we managed to

 2     locate?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that was about the compass method used.  And

 4     Mr. Weber --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We found it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no need to do it any further because we

 9     found it as well.  Mr. Lukic was kindly assisting in pointing us at the

10     relevant paragraph.

11             You may follow the usher.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take a break, I'd like to briefly address

15     a matter and do that before we continue with the examination of

16     Witness Subotic.  The Chamber would like to address some of the Defence's

17     submissions made in court some two weeks ago.

18             The key issue with respect to expert witnesses is the following:

19     Expert witnesses should testify according to their field of expertise.

20     Witness Zorica Subotic was presented, and I quote from the Defence notice

21     of the 10th of April, 2015:  "As ballistics, fire-arms and cold weapons

22     expert."

23             According to her CV, the witness has special identified knowledge

24     in this field.  The Chamber has not limited and will not limit a party in

25     eliciting evidence from an expert witness, if this evidence falls within

Page 39685

 1     the scope of his or her expertise.  This includes testimony about the

 2     facts the expert bases his or her report findings on.  Such a facts may

 3     also be testimony of a witness of fact.  However, in the view of the

 4     Chamber, it is inappropriate for an expert witness to evaluate the

 5     reliability and credibility of such fact witnesses or such a fact

 6     witness.  It is for the Chamber to exercise this evaluation in view of

 7     the totality of the evidence before it.  This is the background of the

 8     Chamber's efforts to support the parties and control the conduct of

 9     proceedings during the examination of witnesses.  In this context, the

10     Chamber refers the parties to Rule 90(F) of our Rules which provide the

11     following:

12             "The Trial Chamber shall exercise control over the mode and order

13     of interrogating witnesses and presenting evidence so as to:  (i) make

14     the integration of witnesses and for the ascertainment of truth; and (ii)

15     to avoid needless of consumption of time."

16             The Chamber is aware that some of its interventions were

17     understood in a different way.  However, in the interests of a fair - and

18     I stress - expeditious trial, we all should do our utmost best to adhere

19     to these principles.

20             This was the Chamber's short statement.

21             We take a break and resume at 1.30.

22                           --- Recess taken at 1.11 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 1.34 p.m.

24             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

Page 39686

 1             MR. WEBER:  If at this time I could just make use of the moment

 2     to tender 65 ter 33095B, as in boy.  It's a video-clip from the 1 hour,

 3     59 minute, and 54 second mark through 2 hours, 1 minute, and 38 seconds

 4     of ERN V000-2479, which is the video referenced in relation to incident

 5     G-5 in footnote 225 of the report.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             MR. LUKIC:  It hasn't been used so ... I don't know how could we

 8     check it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

10             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, it's referenced by the expert.  I'd like

11     to go through the incident in an expeditious possible manner and we would

12     just ask that the video that is referenced in the report be admitted.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if the expert witness relies on it, is

14     there any reason why we should not have an opportunity to check that

15     footnote by having it in evidence?

16             MR. LUKIC:  Of course not, Your Honour, only we have A here

17     referenced before and ... 33095A.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is exactly what I wanted to ask Mr. Weber:

19     What is the difference between the A version and B version.

20             MR. WEBER:  Same video.  It's a rather long video.  There are

21     multiple incidents depicted on it.  With respect to the A version, that

22     related to earlier incident and now in that same video we would like to

23     tender the portion that relates to the incident at hand, which is

24     incident G-5.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the B version includes the A version.

Page 39687

 1             MR. WEBER:  No.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  These are two different parts of the same entire

 3     video.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Correct.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So you excerpted various portions relate to the

 6     specific incidents.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  That video, as I understand it, was admitted under

 9     D1250.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you check that --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was not admitted.  It was marked for

12     identification, but only the A version which was shown to us.

13             MR. LUKIC:  A is even -- no, I think that D1250 is the whole

14     video.

15             MR. WEBER:  And I believe that relates to incident G-4 and we'd

16     like to admit the portion for G-5.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would please verify that and then revisit the

18     matter once it has been verified.

19             Witness, apologies for dealing with all kind of administrative

20     matters, although still related to your testimony.  Mr. Weber will now

21     continue his cross-examination.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   You testified at transcript page 39255 and wrote in your report

24     at paragraphs 53 and 54 that there were military facilities nearby the

25     site of the shelling on the 12th of July, 1993.

Page 39688

 1             First of all, could you please confirm that this assertion is not

 2     from your personal knowledge but, rather, based solely based on the

 3     statement of another witness in a different trial?

 4        A.   Well, we referenced that in footnote 195.  That's the testimony

 5     of Ismet Hadzic in the Galic case.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I'm a bit confused on your theory about the possible

 7     military facility and this incident.  Is it your theory that the ABiH

 8     fired the shell on 12 July 1993 trying to target their own military

 9     command in Dobrinja or are you throwing this out there, just in the event

10     that the Chamber agrees with the rest of the evidence that shows that it

11     came from SRK territory.  Which is it?

12        A.   None of the two.  Quite simply, we tried to put in all the

13     information we had in order to have the most complete picture possible of

14     the event, without any intention of showing that the BH army targeted

15     themselves or create a route for retreat for ourselves.  If -- because

16     that kind of evidence, as you said yourself, does not pass.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just get clarification.

18             When you say:  "Create a route for retreat for ourselves."

19             Who are the "ourselves" here?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean myself and my colleague who

21     co-authored the report.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what would you be --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Poparic.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what would be you retreating from?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not mean retreat.

Page 39689

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We just tried to put all the facts

 3     in one place so that you, as the Trial Chamber, would have a complete

 4     insight.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  You -- but said you didn't want to create a

 6     route for retreat for yourselves.  What would you be retreating from?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's a matter of

 8     interpretation.  Because the theory of the Prosecution was that we had

 9     one of these two things in mind.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that.  I'm just trying to understand

11     your answer.  I understood the Prosecution's question clearly, but I

12     don't understand your answer why you say "create a route for retreat" for

13     yourselves, referring to your and your co-author.  I'm trying to find out

14     what are you retreating from.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that we provided

16     all the information that we had and that we believe were necessary to the

17     Trial Chamber.  We did not have the intention, either to say that the BH

18     army targeted themselves, for whatever reason, or to create a backup

19     position for ourselves in the sense that if our analysis is not accepted,

20     to have a fallback position saying that it was, in fact, a military

21     target.  None of these things.  We just wanted to the Trial Chamber to

22     have a clear and complete insight into the situation on the ground when

23     the incident happened.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 39690

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33202 for

 2     the witness.

 3        Q.   This is a 12 July 1993 SRK Command order from General Galic to

 4     continue the execution of Operation Lukavac '93.  This order is issued on

 5     the same day of the G-5 shelling.  Directing your attention to the third

 6     paragraph which states:  "In order to inflict on the enemy the biggest

 7     possible losses and prevent the consolidation of enemy units, which are

 8     in disarray, and prevent the hampering of the execution of further combat

 9     activities for liberating Serb Mount Igman and Serb villages at the foot

10     of the Mount Bjelasnica and connecting Serb Trnovo with Ilidza and

11     Hadzici via Mount Igman."

12             Dobrinja sits in between Trnovo and Ilidza; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   I put it to you that the shelling of the water distribution line

15     in Dobrinja on 12 July was committed by the VRS and was part of ongoing

16     operations at the time.  This is what happened; correct?

17        A.   Certainly not.  The material evidence on the ground shows that it

18     is not correct.  We analysed that in detail.  If you want us to go

19     through that evidence step by step, we can.  But to take such a general

20     view just because of that order, we cannot do that.  Because of the

21     evidence on the ground.

22             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 33202 into evidence.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 33202 receives exhibit number P7556,

25     Your Honours.

Page 39691

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   Turning to the shelling of the water distribution point on 18

 4     June 1995, you discuss this between pages 166 and 184 of your shelling

 5     report.  You do not reference any UN materials for this incident;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   You realise that Enes Turkusic, as he has testified both in this

 9     case and in the past Karadzic case, did not determine the direction of

10     fire in this incident from the sketch, which you discuss; right?

11        A.   No, he stated that he had determined the direction of fire by

12     method of elimination.  That's one.  And, two, the traces at the point of

13     impact.

14             Through a procedure of elimination, which he did not explain

15     during his evidence in Karadzic when we asked him to explain that to us,

16     he said he couldn't do it without his sketch, and if you or your

17     colleagues had been able to supply him with that sketch, maybe he could

18     have explained it better.

19        Q.   The Prosecution doesn't agree with you but I'm not going to dwell

20     on it because the Chamber has the evidence.  I'm going to move on and

21     discuss the incident in Bascarsija on 22nd December 1994.

22             For this incident, you reviewed the investigative file from the

23     Bosnian MUP; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   The old town area of Sarajevo contains many stores where many of

Page 39692

 1     the city's residents shop; correct?

 2        A.   Correct.  I suppose they did their shopping back then, too.

 3     There are many shops there, although in war time, God knows how much was

 4     available to buy.

 5        Q.   It's not clear so I'm asking you directly here, do you believe

 6     that there were two explosions on this date?  One or two?

 7        A.   Certainly two explosions.

 8        Q.   You --

 9        A.   And that is not contested.

10        Q.   You were aware from your review of the investigative materials

11     that shell fragments from two M70 76-millimetre shells were found at the

12     scene; correct?

13        A.   76-millimetre M70.  Parts of shells that were found belonged to a

14     76-millimetre projectile of the type M70, yes.

15        Q.   It is not uncommon to find a fuse from a projectile at or near

16     the location of a mortar or artillery explosion.  You know this; right?

17        A.   Well, it's rather unusual for it to be found complete.  If it was

18     the fuse that caused the explosion, one should follow through the whole

19     process.  The fuse was the one that initiated the explosion.  So it is

20     the first thing that falls apart into fragments.  It does not remain on

21     the spot, whole.

22        Q.   Okay.  The Chamber has heard evidence about that.  We're not in

23     agreement about it.  I'd like to address the issues raised in your report

24     regarding the first explosion at Danila Ilica Street.  In paragraph 103

25     of your report, you suggest that the scene of the incident was altered

Page 39693

 1     substantially.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.  We just heard that the

 4     Chamber has heard the evidence that after the explosion of mortar or

 5     grenade shell, it is common to have whole fuse.  That's what was said.

 6             MR. WEBER:  No, that's not what I said.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Okay, then, can you explain, please what this Chamber

 8     heard, what was your intention.  Page 70, line 6, please.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I was attempting to address was in what

10     we -- it's not agreement, just to be specific, is the condition of the

11     fuse that was recovered at the scene which I believe the Chamber has

12     heard evidence about.

13             MR. LUKIC:  You believe or you know?

14             MR. WEBER:  Mr. Lukic -- I'm coming to it, Judges.

15             MR. LUKIC:  And I would like to have that quotation then.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well now.  It was a marginal observation about

17     what would be in evidence or not, and I think, as a matter of fact, that

18     you didn't want to put that to the witness in any way.  So, therefore, I

19     can imagine that you would like to know, Mr. Lukic, and Mr. Weber will

20     certainly tell you what you thinks about it during the next break.

21             Meanwhile, it is not part of the examination of the witness and

22     just a marginal observation; right or wrong.

23             Mr. Weber.

24             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 39694

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   In paragraph 103 of your report, you suggest that the scene of

 3     this incident was altered substantially, and this was relating to the

 4     first explosion.  Your theory is that the scene of the first explosion

 5     was altered by the polices in the course of the on-site investigation,

 6     including by digging up a crater manually in the asphalt and covering

 7     marks designed to look like shrapnel in metal shutters during the two

 8     hours and 40 minutes when the investigators were on the scene.

 9             Have I stated your theory correctly?

10        A.   Some of the things you said are correct; others are not.

11             It is correct that we stated the scene was altered.  It is true

12     that we said the earth was moved, and that is visible; but it is not

13     correct that we said that they covered anything up.  It's not in my text.

14     If you read it carefully, you will see that.  Each alteration that we

15     noticed is marked with numbers and is very easy to follow.

16        Q.   If there was an explosion, the police would not have needed to

17     carve markings to look like shrapnel because there would have been

18     shrapnel from the explosion; right?

19        A.   Of course.

20        Q.   The police would not have needed to dig a crater if there was an

21     explosion because there would be a crater; right?

22        A.   Of course.

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

24        A.   But I'm -- if you are talking about the -- an explosion created

25     by a projectile, not any type of explosion.

Page 39695

 1        Q.   You understood me correctly.

 2             In your report, one reason you come to the conclusion that the

 3     scene was altered is that the crater is too big for a 76-millimetre

 4     artillery round and I'm referring to -- to -- for example, page 148 of

 5     your report.  It appears that you explain that -- or you analogise the

 6     fact that such an artillery round has a similar explosive charge as an

 7     82-millimetre mortar.

 8             First, do you base this on photographs from the MUP file, this

 9     conclusion?

10        A.   Well, we did not have any other photographs.  We only had the MUP

11     photo documentation.  And it's true that this M70 76-millimetre

12     projectile is similar to an 82-millimetre shell in terms of explosive

13     mass.  It has -- one has 600 and the other has 680 grams.  So it's -- one

14     has an explosive mass of 15 per cent higher.

15        Q.   In your view, do mortars and artillery shells cause similar or

16     different patterns on the ground upon impact?

17        A.   They always leave different traces upon impact, but the size of

18     the crater is primarily defined by the mass of the explosive charge.

19        Q.   A mortar shell of a similar calibre as an artillery shell, I put

20     it to you, produces more shrapnel, less of a blast effect and a different

21     pattern based upon the rotation or non-rotation of the shell during its

22     flight; right?

23        A.   First of all, a shell, an artillery shell, certainly rotates

24     during flight because of system of stabilisation is stabilisation through

25     rotation.  These are stable projectiles.  And, second, a mortar

Page 39696

 1     projectile rotates only slightly and its rotation is much smaller than

 2     that of an artillery projectile.  I don't know exactly what you were

 3     driving at with this question.  If you -- if you make it clearer, maybe I

 4     can answer more precisely.

 5        Q.   In simplest terms, what I'm putting to you is that you're

 6     comparing apples and oranges, because there is more shrapnel, less of a

 7     blast effect, and a different pattern between a mortar shell of a similar

 8     calibre as a given artillery shell?

 9        A.   I wouldn't agree with you that I am comparing apples and oranges.

10             The number of pieces of shrapnel depends on a number of factors

11     which is probably beyond the scope of our discussion here.  You cannot

12     say in a blanket fashion that there are more shrapnel with a mortar

13     shell.  It depends on far greater number of parameters than we can

14     discuss here now.

15             Secondly, I suppose that a mine shell, having 15 per cent more of

16     explosive should create at least this kind of crater, if not greater.

17             Another thing that we disagree on is the trace left on a surface.

18     It is different when it comes to an artillery projectile as opposed to a

19     mortar projectile.  That is true.

20        Q.   All right.  In addition, the size -- well, you cite the damage to

21     the shutter shown in the photo file as a reason you believe the site may

22     have been altered.  You claim that, and I quote from paragraph 105 of

23     your report:  "It is impossible for so much shrapnel to hit the window

24     without any of it hitting the wall."

25             When making this conclusion you also refer to the testimony of

Page 39697

 1     Ekrem Suljevic and state in the same paragraph that Mr. Suljevic:  "Did

 2     not explicitly state why the damage to the wall was not marked in circles

 3     on these photographs."

 4             I'd like to now turn to Mr. Suljevic's testimony.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33156.  And

 6     if we could scroll down to about line 21.

 7        Q.   This is the testimony of Ekrem Suljevic in the Karadzic case on

 8     6 September 2010, page 6203, the same portion that you reference in

 9     footnote 417.  Starting at line 21, during this testimony, Mr. Suljevic

10     was asked:

11             "Q.  How do you explain that will are some markings on the

12     shutter, most probably marked by chalk, whereas we see now no damages

13     inflicted by fragments on the wall?

14             "A.  I wouldn't dare claim that, based on this photograph.  If we

15     were to examine it more carefully, we may be able to find some damages,

16     but they aren't marked.  But the narrative under the photograph says that

17     the purpose of this photograph was to show the damage done to the metal

18     shutter."

19             Were you present when Mr. Suljevic gave this explanation?

20        A.   Of course.  Mr. Suljevic provided his explanation as recorded.

21     However, the gist of the problem is that underneath the photograph in the

22     photo file there's no reference made to any wall marks.

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... ma'am, we have the answer.

24             You did not quote or mention Mr. Suljevic's non-agreement with

25     the proposition that the photograph shows no damages on the wall or his

Page 39698

 1     explanation to Mr. Karadzic of the purpose of the photograph being to

 2     show damage on the shutter; right?

 3        A.   I remember him saying that, but not as explicitly as it is

 4     recorded here.  At least not as far as I remember.

 5             In any case, it is illogical and I know how such records are

 6     made.  It is illogical that somebody would write something that is

 7     incorrect underneath a photograph.  There is no situation in which --

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... you're explaining.  I'm just

 9     putting to you you're not accurately reflecting the evidence of the

10     witness in your report.  We see another occasion of that; right?

11        A.   If that's your opinion, then let it lie.  But I don't think we

12     inaccurately presented the witness's statement.  I disagree with that.  I

13     was present during the cross-examination.

14        Q.   In your report at paragraph 98 you note that UNPROFOR members

15     from the 4th French Battalion and UNMOs from the SC2 group stationed at

16     Sedrenik were at the scene of the shelling on the -- in December 1994.

17     Do you really believe that investigators managed to conceal the fact that

18     they had altered a scene, including by manually excavating a crater in

19     the asphalt and carving marks to look like shrapnel and metal shutters

20     from seven UN officials who were on the scene at the time?

21             Do you expect us to really believe that?

22        A.   I am not in a position to believe or disbelieve.  I wasn't

23     present.  I look at technical evidence, so to say, as a consequence of

24     the physical forces.  I analyse those.  If you can't accept that, I don't

25     know how to continue this conversation with you.  Whether I believe in

Page 39699

 1     something or not has no place in my report.

 2        Q.   The UN investigators analysed the craters and, like the police,

 3     they concluded that the shells were -- well, that the craters were the

 4     result of shells fired from the south-east; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Let's talk about the second explosion at number 3 Petra Kocica

 7     Street.

 8             In relation to the second explosion you claim in paragraph 107 of

 9     your report that the round at the second site was activated while it was

10     stationary.  Are you saying that this was a staged static explosion?

11        A.   First of all, I did not say that it was elevated but placed flat

12     because the crater as we have it in figure 98 taken over from the photo

13     file --

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

15        A.   Or the recording taken --

16        Q.   I don't know if it was recorded correctly.  I meant to say that

17     it was activated while it was stationary not elevated.  Are you saying

18     that this was a staged static explosion?

19        A.   I have no other choice but to state that given the technical

20     parameters in the field and the traces, material traces that we examined.

21        Q.   You cannot give me a name of any witness or individual who saw

22     this explosive device planted; right?

23        A.   I apologise.  But, really, based on what could I provide you with

24     such a name?

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33162 for

Page 39700

 1     the witness.

 2        Q.   Before you are the technical specifications for a --

 3             MR. WEBER:  And if I could please actually go forward.  I'm

 4     sorry.  If we could go to the second page in both versions.

 5        Q.   Before you are the technical specifications for a 76-millimetre

 6     artillery round from the ammunition manual.  Based upon these

 7     specifications, a 76-millimetre artillery round is 64 centimetres long

 8     and weighs over 8 kilograms; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   These specifications are quite different from an 82-millimetre

11     shell.  Here, the entire 76-millimetre shell weighs 8.2 kilos of which it

12     appears 5.2 kilograms is the steel jacket.  Whereas as we discussed

13     earlier, I believe, the 82-millimetre shell, the entire round weighs just

14     over 3 kilograms.

15             The steel jacket of a 76-millimetre shell is significantly higher

16     and thicker than an 82-millimetre mortar shell; correct?

17        A.   Of course.  But let me correct interpretation.  I heard the

18     interpreter twice say full jacket, but it is actually the round that the

19     weight referred to.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you may ask a question about

21     interpretation.  You are not here to correct the interpretation.  If you

22     have any concerns in that respect, then we'll verify it.  Because our

23     interpreters are --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- are experts in their field.  Therefore, you, as a

Page 39701

 1     layperson may, again, express any concerns, but it will always be

 2     verified and will be dealt with at the level of expert knowledge for

 3     interpretation.

 4             Mr. Lukic, if there are any concerns, then the -- you -- the

 5     witness said -- let me just ... one second, please.

 6             You said that you heard twice the word "full jacket."  It doesn't

 7     not appear on the transcript in English, and I don't remember that I've

 8     heard --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  She's listening to B/C/S channel.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But in the B/C/S channel, I think there would

11     be no -- or is that the words of Mr. Weber were not accurately

12     translated?

13             MR. LUKIC:  I think so.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And then if that's the case, please point at which

15     concerns you may have and then it will be verified.

16             MR. LUKIC:  The question could just be restated.  But I see it on

17     the screen.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just check one second, please.  If there are

19     any concerns in this respect --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Page 77, from line 14 could be checked.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  77, line 14.

22             Mr. Weber, that is -- I have on 77, line 14:  "These

23     specifications are quite different from an 82-millimetre shell.  Here,

24     the entire 76-millimetre shell weighs 8.2 kilos of which appears 5.2

25     kilograms is the steel jacket.  Whereas we discussed earlier, I believe,

Page 39702

 1     the 82-millimetre shell, the entire round weighs just over 3 kilograms."

 2             Any concerns left, Mr. Lukic?

 3             Mr. Weber, I --

 4             The witness raised the matter --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  The -- let the translator to translate this time all

 6     the way through.  I don't know if there's any concerns now at

 7     Ms. Subotic's side.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If any concern remains, Mr. Lukic, then we'd

 9     have to compare the previous translation of the same words spoken by

10     Mr. Weber and the -- the interpretation and now the interpretation of my

11     words when I literally read from the transcript what Mr. Weber is

12     supposed to have said.

13             If there's any concern, we'll hear from you.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if I could tender 65 ter 33162 into

16     evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 33162 receives exhibit number P7557,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P7557 is admitted into evidence.

21             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, just quickly completing for the

22     day Mr. Lukic inquired about Mr. Suljevic's testimony regarding the fuse.

23     I would refer counsel to transcript page 8533 of these proceedings and

24     the discussion in that page.  And I see that it's the time.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It certainly is.

Page 39703

 1             Ms. Subotic, I give you the same instructions as I did before,

 2     that is, not to speak or communicate in whatever way about your testimony

 3     with whomever, whether already given or still to be given.  We'd like to

 4     see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom.  You may

 5     now follow the usher.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow,

 8     Tuesday, the 6th of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom,

 9     I.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day of

12                           October, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.