151021ED

Page 40178

1 your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

2 butt truth.

3 Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.

4 Mr. Traldi.

5 WITNESS: DRAGAN KIJAC [Resumed]

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

8 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Now I want to turn today to your evidence about events in

11 Sarajevo in 1992.

12 In paragraphs 16 through 19 of your statement, you describe the

13 barricades which were set up in Sarajevo in early March 1992. You say

14 you don't know that the SDS had a Crisis Staff at the Holiday Inn hotel

15 that day and you were at your office the whole time.

16 Have I correctly understood your evidence on this point?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, the Chamber has received the evidence of a Defence witness

19 named Nedjo Vlaski. You knew him personally; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. He was a co-worker of yours in March 1992?

22 A. No.

23 Q. He was --

24 A. In March 1992, no.

25 Q. He was a co-worker of yours, first, in the SNB of the RS MUP

Page 40179

1 during the war; right?

2 A. Yes, there was a decision for him at the MUP. But you're talking

3 about March 1992. At that time, I was the secretary of the city SUP, and

4 as far as I know, Nedjo Vlaski at the time was in the security service of

5 the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Vlaski, your co-worker during the war, testified at

7 transcript page 27790 that you were at the Holiday Inn at the time the

8 barricades were set up. That's the truth; right?

9 A. No, that is not true. I was outside of Sarajevo when the

10 barricades were set up, and I found out about them only in the evening at

11 about 9.00 p.m. And once I learnt that the barricades were erected, I

12 managed to enter the city secretariat. That's where I spent the night.

13 I wasn't at the Holiday Inn, and I didn't leave the office until the

14 situation was -- let me put it this way, was normalised.

15 Q. So Mr. Vlaski, in your submission, is lying that you were at the

16 Holiday Inn?

17 MR. LUKIC: Objection. "Lying" we, first, don't use in this

18 courtroom. Second, it doesn't mean that he can have the other

19 impression. Lying.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Traldi, you wanted to ask the witness, I

21 take it, that this witness contests the truth of that testimony.

22 MR. TRALDI: I do.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And please choose your words in this way yourself --

24 MR. TRALDI:

25 Q. So you then contest the truth of Mr. Vlaski's testimony that you

Page 40180

1 were at the Holiday Inn.

2 A. I don't know what Mr. Vlaski said. I can confirm that the entire

3 time I spent at my office at the city Secretariat of the Interior, that I

4 had two of my assistants with me. Mr. Leotar was a crimes assistant and

5 Mr. Redzep Adzic was the police assistant. I didn't leave anywhere until

6 the situation was normalised. I think remained there for 24 hours

7 directly managing the action from my office. I don't know about

8 Mr. Vlaski. Perhaps he was there, and it's possible that he has his own

9 impressions.

10 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 03838. Now this is an interview

11 with Momcilo Mandic published in Slobodna Bosna in 1998. If we could

12 turn to page 4 in both languages, and if we could zoom in on the middle

13 of the page in the B/C/S at the bottom under [B/C/S spoken].

14 Q. Mr. Mandic is asked about the barricades. He says Krajisnik and

15 Karadzic were in Belgrade. He refers to the Gardovic killing. And then

16 he says towards the end of the paragraph: Rajko Djukic headed

17 the committee for the organisation of barricades. I do not --

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please, please, slowly reading.

19 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 I'll start that sentence again:

21 "Rajko Djukic headed the committee for the organisation of

22 barricades. I do not wish to hide anything. Dragan Kijac,

23 Mico Stanisic, myself, and some others from the MUP took part in this,

24 and we organised everything so as to avoid bloodshed and to show to the

25 public and Izetbegovic they could not act like that ..."

Page 40181

1 So you also organised -- took part in organising the barricades;

2 right?

3 A. Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

4 MR. LUKIC: Sorry. The very text says differently than the

5 proposal, that this gentleman did everything to prevent bloodshed.

6 MR. TRALDI: No. And I --

7 JUDGE ORIE: No, no discussions about that.

8 You, Mr. Lukic, if you think that Mr. Traldi is misquoting any

9 statement, whether he quotes it in a context which is the one you'd like

10 to hear about is a different matter. Then you can say, Please quote

11 literally and then that will be done. And just as you sometimes select

12 certain portions you want to put to the witness, that is what Mr. Traldi

13 is allowed to do as well.

14 So if there is any inaccuracy in the quoting, Mr. Traldi should

15 take care of that. Other things have to remain until re-examination.

16 Is there any problem with the words quoted or a summary which is

17 inaccurate?

18 MR. LUKIC: I have B/C/S version in front of me and I think that

19 it basically is the same as in English. I think that the context is

20 completely different.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Context is fine. Then you can clarify that

22 in re-examination. The only thing we're concerned about at this moment

23 is whether there is any misquote or an inaccurate summary.

24 MR. TRALDI:

25 Q. Sir, the truth is that, like Mr. Mandic says here, you took part

Page 40182

1 in organising the barricades; right?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Traldi, my only problem with your line of

3 questioning is that we don't see in this passage that this witness was at

4 the Holiday Inn on that time.

5 MR. TRALDI: I -- I agree, Your Honour, and I framed the question

6 carefully this time that he took part in organising the barricades. And

7 so what I'm putting to him this time is that what Mr. Mandic said in the

8 interview is the truth.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But what I'm trying to suggest is that question

10 that you are now putting is a shift from the first question and I'm not

11 sure whether indeed we're still pursuing the truthfulness or lack of

12 truthfulness of this witness who testified earlier or whether you're now

13 going into a different topic.

14 MR. TRALDI: Just to make it implicitly clear, Your Honour, the

15 case that I'm putting to the witness is that his description of his role

16 in these events is contradicted on multiple points by multiple sources

17 who knew him and had no incentive to do anything other than tell the

18 truth about his role.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 MR. TRALDI:

22 Q. Just to briefly repeat my question, the truth, like Mr. Mandic

23 says here, is that you took part in organising the barricades; right?

24 A. No, Mr. Traldi. I came as the city secretary on the 24th of

25 February, so it was some days before the barricades. The barricades were

Page 40183

1 erected when the Serbian best man was killed. I think that was on the

2 1st of March, seven days after I took up my duties.

3 I know that Mr. Mandic participated in the barricades and that

4 Mr. Nedjo Vlaski had a self-inflicted injury there. But I did not take

5 part in the organisation of the barricades and I was not at the

6 Holiday Inn at the time. I didn't even know that the Crisis Staff, or

7 however you call it, was in session at the Holiday Inn. And since I was

8 not a member of the Serbian Democratic Party, I did not have any contacts

9 with the Serbian Democratic Party or with the people who -- such as Rajko

10 Dukic who are mentioned here and who were involved in that.

11 On the other hand, at the time you could not move around

12 Sarajevo. It was unsafe. There were both Serbian and Muslim barricades.

13 I did not go to see my family for 24 hours, Mr. Traldi, never mind walk

14 around. There were two barricades very close my apartment, one was a

15 Serbian one, one was a Muslim one. There was firing from there, and

16 other than by telephone, I was not able to contact my family. So then I

17 went to see my family [as interpreted] --

18 Q. Sir, you've now gone well beyond my question. I'm going to ask

19 you to focus on the question that I directly ask you.

20 During the course of your answer you said you did not have any --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: I think there is some mistake either in translation

23 or transcribing. The gentleman did not say that he went to see his

24 family.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No, he did not. He said he did not, at least that's

Page 40184

1 what I heard, did not go to see his family. But the issue was not

2 whether there were barricades and what effect they had on the witness.

3 The issue and the question was about whether this witness participated in

4 organising them. That was the issue, but I think everyone understood

5 that the witness said that and certainly the transcript will --

6 MR. LUKIC: Yeah. In 65, line 7, it says: "Then I went to see

7 my family," and he didn't say that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: No. We heard, and I put that on the record a second

9 ago, that we heard he did not go and see his family for such a time, and

10 that will be worked -- I mean, the transcript is not the final one yet.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And in any case, at line 3 he says:

12 "I did not go to see my family for 24 hours ..."

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it seems that it's a minor issue on the

14 whole matter and it will be corrected anyhow.

15 Let's proceed.

16 MR. TRALDI:

17 Q. Now you say -- you said in your last answer you did not have any

18 contacts with the Serbian Democratic Party. In fact, as you say in

19 paragraph 11 of your statement, your appointment in Sarajevo was approved

20 by Radovan Karadzic; right?

21 A. Yes, that's not in dispute, Mr. Traldi, but we cannot link him up

22 with this at the time. There was a tripartite authority, a coalition of

23 three parties, and a few days after this authority was set up

24 Mr. Karadzic called me. That has nothing to do with --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly be asked to slow down.

Page 40185

1 MR. TRALDI:

2 Q. You're being asked by the interpreters to slow down and by me,

3 again, to focus directly on the question that I ask you, which is not

4 about the tripartite system or the history of the government. As you

5 told us on Monday, you're not a politician; right?

6 A. Precisely. I did not have any contacts with the Serbian

7 Democratic Party other than meetings with Mr. Karadzic in May 1991.

8 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'm about to move on, but before I do

9 I'll tender this document.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 03838 receives Exhibit Number P7585,

12 Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

14 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P3009. And I'm turning now to the

15 beginning of April -- end of March/beginning of April 1992 and the

16 RS MUP.

17 Q. You say in your statement that you had no information about the

18 division of the MUP except for a dispatch from Momcilo Mandic.

19 Now this is that dispatch; right?

20 A. I assume so. There's no need for me to read it. We don't need

21 to lose too much time, Mr. Traldi. I assume that that is that dispatch.

22 It's addressed to, among others, the SUP Sarajevo, personally to me. We

23 don't need to check what's in it right now. We don't want to lose time

24 with me having to read the content of the dispatch.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, leave it in Mr. Traldi's hands what he

Page 40186

1 considers is worth to use time on. Mr. Traldi -- listen to his questions

2 and please answer them. If he asks you to read it, you'll read it. If

3 he doesn't ask, then -- but to be sure that this is the dispatch, you

4 might -- you had a look at it, you say it is, even without having read it

5 in its totality again. That's how I understood your testimony.

6 Can you confirm it is or do you need more time to read it?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is it, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

9 MR. TRALDI:

10 Q. Now, you say you spent a weekend in early April 1992 in Pale

11 municipality. You mention you went to Podgrab village and the Pale SJB.

12 Did you also go to the scout's hall while you were in Pale?

13 A. No. If you permit me, Mr. Traldi, I said this and I think I said

14 in my statement that on Friday afternoon I went to Pale with my family,

15 that I was stopped by a Muslim barricade at the exit to Sarajevo held by

16 the Green Berets and the police, and that I was also stopped again in

17 Serb territory --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the simple question was whether you also

19 went to the scout's hall. And by the first word - no - you've answered

20 that question. Whatever you did, if there's any reason to further

21 explore that, Mr. Lukic will do it.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. TRALDI:

24 Q. Had you visited the scout's hall at all in early 1992?

25 A. Scout's hall, I'm sorry, I don't really know what that is. In

Page 40187

1 the beginning, it was translated to me as the sports hall.

2 Q. I'm thinking of a place called Kalovita Brda in Pale.

3 A. No. I was never at that building, unless you're thinking of the

4 MUP building in Pale.

5 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 33291.

6 Now this is part of Milan Scekic's testimony in the

7 Stanisic-Zupljanin case. If we can scroll down -- we have the whole

8 page.

9 Q. So he's asked when he first became aware of talk within the MUP

10 about forming a Serbian MUP. He says:

11 "The first time I heard of it was in 1992" --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: What line are we at?

13 MR. TRALDI: His answer begins at line 17, Your Honour.

14 He says in late March or early April. He says he came out into

15 the street and met two of his colleagues, he cannot recall their names.

16 They asked me if I wanted to join them on their way to Pale. I did, he

17 says, and Mico Stanisic Dragan Kijac, and chiefs of public security from

18 Sarajevo municipalities were present, as well as the representatives of

19 the ten peripheral municipalities.

20 If we could turn to page 3 at the bottom. It says, he is asked:

21 "Mr. Witness, my question is: The meeting in Pale that you

22 talked about where in Pale was the meeting held, if you remember?"

23 He answers:

24 "It was held at Kalovita Brda, formally known as the scout's

25 hall. The meeting was brief. We were given the information and parted

Page 40188

1 ways."

2 If we can turn to the top of page 4, he is asked:

3 "Do you recall who led or chaired the meeting?"

4 He says:

5 "I think it was Dragan Kijac who chaired the meeting ..."

6 Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to whether you chaired a

7 meeting at Kalovita Brda in early 1992?

8 A. Now I understand which building you're referring to. It's the

9 MUP building. It was the MUP building. I don't know what it was used

10 for earlier on. In April 1992, a ministry was established there, the

11 Ministry of the Interior was there. So it wasn't a scout's hall or a

12 sports hall.

13 As far as Mr. Scekic is concerned, well, this must have happened

14 a lot later. He went to Sarajevo at least a month and a half or two

15 after the conflict had broken out, and for that reason, he had unpleasant

16 experiences. So it's quite possible that he thought it was in May or

17 June. But for me to be the chairman of the meeting, well, at the time I

18 could only have been the chairman within my own service. I wasn't the

19 head of the service, Mr. Skipina was, as well as Mr. Mico Stanisic. But

20 I was in Kalovita Brda throughout the period of April.

21 I do apologise, but I had to provide you with some detail in

22 order to describe the relative context.

23 Q. So you contest, just to cut it short, the truthfulness of his

24 testimony that you chaired meetings about the establishment of the RS MUP

25 at Kalovita Brda at the time; right?

Page 40189

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: We should just ... maybe the rest of this

3 paragraph should be read in all the fairness to the witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That is suggested to you, Mr. Traldi. If you follow

5 that suggestion, please do so. If you don't follow it, then Mr. Lukic

6 will have an opportunity to further deal with the matter.

7 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to finish the paragraph.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, one thing I noticed, I don't know whether there

9 comes down in the next paragraph, but you used the plural, "meetings."

10 Whereas I think from what was read it was "a meeting."

11 MR. TRALDI: I'll phrase very precisely.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

13 MR. TRALDI: Or I'll attempt to anyway, Your Honour.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Scekic's full answer is:

15 "I think it was Dragan Kijac who chaired the meeting. I believe

16 Mico Stanisic was present as well. Of course, this was 18 years ago, I

17 may be mistaken, but I would really like to give a fair statement true to

18 what I experienced and what I remember. But I believe this was the case,

19 that Dragan Kijac chaired the meeting and that Mico Stanisic was

20 present."

21 Do you also contest the truthfulness of Mr. Scekic's sworn

22 testimony?

23 A. Look, Mr. Scekic said that this what he thought. I have no

24 reason to dispute this, but -- I can't lead a meeting as minister of the

25 interior. Mico Stanisic would have had to open the meeting and maybe

Page 40190

1 given me the floor. But for me to lead a meeting, to chair a meeting,

2 that wasn't quite the way things were organised within the Ministry of

3 the Interior. Especially because I was the head of the sector at the

4 time, Mr. Traldi. So I was only the head of the sector at the time and

5 nothing more.

6 Q. So thus far, Mr. Vlaski, Mr. Mandic, Mr. Scekic have all

7 misremembered your activities at the time; is that right?

8 A. It is not in doubt as to whether or not they can remember this

9 correctly, but I can remember what the case was better. I don't say that

10 I wasn't at Kalovita Brda and that I spent the entire period of April

11 there. There was an office there about the third of the size of this

12 area, so it wasn't anyone else's office, it was a hall for meetings

13 because the ministry didn't have any room at the time. It was a hall, a

14 room that the 10 or 15 of us would use. We were sitting there at the

15 time --

16 Q. Sir, I'm going to stop you. I hadn't asked for a description of

17 the room. I'd put a fairly straightforward question, I think, and I'd

18 just ask you again to focus on it.

19 Now, you became aware that there were no or very few non-Serb

20 personnel in the RS MUP; right?

21 A. At the time in Pale, yes, it's quite certain that there were no

22 non-Serbs. As for other areas, I don't know. I can speak about the

23 situation up until August. In the State Security Service there were

24 mainly Serbs from the Ministry of Interior or from the State Security

25 Service that I was in charge of. On the whole, they were Serbs. There

Page 40191

1 were no non-Serbs.

2 As for other organisational units in the field, I do believe that

3 there were people from other ethnicities, Muslims and Croats. They

4 worked in certain organisational units. I know some of them and I know

5 some of them who remained there until the end of the war. But I can only

6 tell you what I am aware of, that is, the State Security Service. There

7 were no non-Serbs there. Because the Serbs who had left Sarajevo started

8 establishing a State Security Service in Sarajevo.

9 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 33278. And as it comes up, I

10 will ask that the witness be given 90(E) advice at this time.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kijac, Mr. Traldi has invited me to make you

12 acquainted with Rule 90(E) of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence. And

13 I'll read it to you.

14 The rule says:

15 "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

16 incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

17 answer the question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

18 as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

19 offence other than false testimony."

20 So if you fear that a truthful answer would incriminate yourself,

21 you may address me.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. TRALDI: Now these are the minutes of the expanded session of

24 the expert collegium held on 10 and 11 of November, 1993, in Pale. If we

25 could turn to page 3 in both languages, we see the beginning of the

Page 40192

1 meeting. And at page 4, both languages, in the second paragraph, we see

2 that it begins:

3 "The following persons were present at the session, which was

4 chaired on 10 November 1993 by Dragan Kijac, and on 11 November 1993, by

5 the acting minister, Tomo Kovac."

6 Q. Now in light of your answers about the collegium on Monday,

7 before I move on, I just want to make sure, would you have been

8 psychologically present or psychologically absent while you were chairing

9 the meeting?

10 A. I can't remember having chaired a meeting of the Ministry of the

11 Interior with these individuals. So that didn't correspond to my level

12 of job description. So I'm quite surprised by this. This is the first

13 time I have seen things being formulated in this way. I can't have

14 chaired a meeting of the Ministry of the Interior which included

15 assistants for public safety who had the same status as I did, if not an

16 even higher status.

17 Q. Looking at the bottom of the page we read:

18 "After expounding the agenda, Dragan Kijac opened the discussion

19 on the first item."

20 Now, you've been to enough meetings to know that's the chair's

21 role. It's not just a random guy at the meeting who expounds the agenda

22 and opens the discussion; right?

23 A. I really can't remember. I would say this is quite impossible.

24 I can see that it says Dragan Kijac chaired the meeting, but if you have

25 look at those who attended the meeting, well, I don't have any

Page 40193

1 responsibility for assistants for finance, for assistants for

2 communications, for [indiscernible], for the chief of -- the Chef de

3 Cabinet Radomir Milos. I really cannot be the chairman of such a meeting

4 involving such individuals.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you don't -- you say you were not there.

6 You did not chair that meeting. You did not chair that meeting. Okay.

7 That's --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I said. But as to

9 whether I was at the meeting, I probably was at the meeting.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear. But you don't have to explain

11 always why your answer is the right answer. I mean, to say it's

12 impossible that it was otherwise unless there's some clear physical

13 impossible. But just arguing about why your recollection must be the

14 right one is not something that is important for us at this moment.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. TRALDI:

17 Q. And in fact --

18 A. I do apologise, Your Honour. But I get carried away. Because

19 this is the first time I have seen this today --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, wait for the next question.

21 MR. TRALDI: If we can have page 8 in the English and the bottom

22 of page 7 in the B/C/S.

23 Q. Now we see in the next-to-last paragraph in the B/C/S and in the

24 middle of the page in English, that Stojan Zupljanin explained his

25 proposal for giving what's translated as work contracts to employees of

Page 40194

1 non-Serb ethnicity, stating that he had taken as the main criteria the

2 meeting of general and specific conditions. He mentioned, in particular,

3 that over 400 journalists and 120 TV crew who had visited Banja Luka last

4 year were interested specifically in those persons.

5 Now it's fair to say that what he is interested in is achieving

6 public relations benefits, right, by hiring non-Serbs? That's what he's

7 proposing; right?

8 A. Yes, I had this in mind a while ago when answering your question.

9 In certain centres, there were employees who were non-Serbs.

10 MR. TRALDI: Can we turn to the next page in B/C/S and it will be

11 the second paragraph. First full paragraph, rather.

12 Q. What we read there is that Dragan Kijac, Andrija Bjelosevic,

13 Krsto Savic, and Milenko Karisik were opposed to Zupljanin's proposal,

14 while Goran Macar stressed that no such people could work at the forensic

15 department while the war was ongoing.

16 Now, that's your position as you articulated it to the collegium;

17 right? You were opposed to hiring non-Serbs?

18 A. There was no hiring, Mr. Traldi. These people worked in the

19 service before the war. They just remained on and worked in the Ministry

20 of the Interior. They weren't new employees, you understand? Before

21 1992, before the war broke out, they worked in the Ministry of the

22 Interior. They remained there and some of them continued to work there

23 until the end of the war --

24 Q. Sir --

25 A. On the other hand --

Page 40195

1 Q. What I've asked you about is your position. Your position as you

2 articulated to the collegium on this occasion was you were opposed to

3 giving contracts to non-Serbs; right?

4 A. Mr. Traldi, it's the same thing again. These are people who

5 worked in the Ministry of the Interior before the war. These people were

6 not new people. As for my opinion, I can't express it to the head of the

7 centre, Stojan Zupljanin, because I have no authority over

8 Stojan Zupljanin.

9 JUDGE ORIE: What about answering the question?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Were you opposed to Stojan Zupljanin's proposal

12 which was read out by Mr. Traldi a second ago? Were you opposed to that?

13 That's the simple question.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't be for or against this

15 proposal because that did not concern my field of activity, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So do I understand, then, that's what's recorded

17 here as your position as expressed during that meeting, that that is not

18 correct?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think it is correct. This

20 was drafted as if I had been the chairman, so I don't think it is

21 correct.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's wrongly recorded. That's your

23 position.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. TRALDI:

Page 40196

1 Q. Sir, you say this can't be correct because it was drafted as if

2 you had been the chairman. If Minister Kovac wasn't present, one of his

3 two under-secretaries would chair the meeting; right?

4 A. Look, you have to understand how the Ministry of the Interior was

5 organised.

6 Q. Sir --

7 A. I don't know who the minister --

8 Q. I'm going to stop you. I'm not asking for a long explanation of

9 the ministry's organisation. I'm asking you about if Minister Kovac

10 wasn't present at the collegium meeting who would chair it, and what I'm

11 putting to you is it would have been one of the under-secretaries; right?

12 Yes or no?

13 A. No. The state security couldn't have a meeting at which there

14 were public employees. You can see that there wasn't a single state

15 employee. How could I have --

16 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is kindly asked to repeat his

17 answer.

18 MR. TRALDI:

19 Q. Sir --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, you were invited to repeat your

21 answer. I leave it to you, Mr. Lukic, whether -- where everyone was

22 about, I think, to try to get the witness back to the question, whether

23 there's any need to do that. You have listened to it, I take it, in

24 B/C/S.

25 Witness, could you please answer the questions rather than

Page 40197

1 explain all kind of things without answering the question. The question

2 was, and you did it very briefly, that it would not be -- if Minister

3 Kovac wasn't there, that it would not be two of the under-ministers who

4 would replace him.

5 Then the simple question is: Who would replace him if he wasn't

6 there?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't know.

8 Minister Kovac wasn't a minister. That's the first thing.

9 JUDGE ORIE: If Mr. Kovac was not there, you wouldn't know who

10 would replace him, apart from whether he was a minister or not. That's

11 an answer to the question.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

13 MR. TRALDI:

14 Q. You just said Minister Kovac wasn't a minister. Is it your

15 evidence now that you don't recall who was the acting minister of the

16 interior in November 1993?

17 A. Well, as to whether he was a -- in an acting position or not, I

18 don't know. There was someone called Ratko Hadzic and there was a sort

19 of vacuum at the time. I don't think that Mr. Kovac was the acting

20 minister, if my memory doesn't fail me, and I think it doesn't.

21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'm about to move on, but before I do,

22 I will tender the document.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 33278 receives Exhibit Number P7586,

25 Your Honours.

Page 40198

1 JUDGE ORIE: P7586 is admitted into -- Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: I -- I do not have objection for now.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then it's --

4 MR. LUKIC: Only we would [overlapping speakers] ...

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- admitted into evidence.

6 MR. LUKIC: We would like to know how this document was obtained

7 by the Prosecution.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, if you could answer the question right

9 away it would be appreciated. Otherwise inform Mr. Lukic at a later

10 stage.

11 MR. TRALDI: It's being checked but we'll answer no later than

12 the break.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

14 MR. TRALDI:

15 Q. Now in paragraph 49 of your statement, sir, turning to a new

16 topic, you say that as of late June and early July 1995, the RDB was

17 focused mostly on the Sarajevo-Trnovo theatre of war. That means that

18 you would have been monitoring events that theatre; right?

19 A. Could you tell me which paragraph you are referring to, please.

20 Q. 49. And while you look for it, sir.

21 MR. TRALDI: I can already inform Mr. Lukic that the last

22 document was seized from the RS MUP CJB Srpsko Sarajevo in Pale in

23 June 2003.

24 Q. Now, sir, if you were monitoring events in the Sarajevo-Trnovo

25 theatre in late June and early July, if your attention was focused there,

Page 40199

1 you would have been monitoring events there; right?

2 A. Yes, given the information that I have, yes.

3 Q. And you'd have been monitoring forces deployed there; right?

4 A. Which forces do you have in mind? There's quite some distance

5 between Sarajevo and Trnovo. If you are referring to Trnovo or are you

6 referring to the Sarajevo theatre of war? Could you try and be more

7 precise? I'm not quite sure which forces you are referring to.

8 Q. Sure. If a new unit was deployed to Trnovo while your attention

9 was focused on it at that time, that's something that wouldn't have

10 escaped your attention; right?

11 A. That's why I've asked you about this. The Trnovo theatre of war,

12 when conflicts broke out in the Trnovo theatre of war, we had an

13 operative who went there from Sarajevo and he monitored the situation and

14 submitted reports to us about the security situation in that battlefield.

15 So we did have an operative there, on the whole.

16 Q. I'm going to start with the Sarajevo side. Now, you knew at that

17 time - early July 1995 - that in the area of Sarajevo under Muslim

18 control the citizens didn't even have the basic conditions for survival;

19 right?

20 A. That is quite a broad concept. Basic conditions for survival,

21 well, that is quite a broad concept. There's no doubt that the situation

22 in Sarajevo was difficult.

23 MR. TRALDI: Can we have, just, I think, for efficiency,

24 65 ter 33181.

25 Q. This is an RDB report dated the 2nd of July, 1995, bearing your

Page 40200

1 name and sent personally to the deputy minister of the interior and the

2 head of the public security department. If we can turn to page 2 in both

3 languages, and it's the third paragraph in the English, we read -- and

4 it's the first full paragraph in the B/C/S:

5 "We are in possession of information that the situation in the

6 area of Sarajevo which is under Muslim control continues to worsen owing

7 to the lack of the basic conditions for survival. For these reasons,

8 citizens have started to abandon the town, passing through the tunnel at

9 their own risk."

10 Now, this was what you knew to be the truth about the situation

11 in Sarajevo at the beginning of July 1995 when your attention was focused

12 on that theatre; right?

13 A. This dispatch shows this was an intercepted conversation between

14 two individuals and one can see that they were commenting on this. The

15 comments were conveyed, were relayed, the comments made in that

16 intercepted conversation, it says, on the basis of the comments made by

17 two Muslims. So it is obvious that this conversation was intercepted and

18 this paragraph was drafted on the basis of that conversation.

19 Q. And the information that you had that you were reporting to the

20 department minister of the interior and to the top of the CJB -- sorry,

21 the top of the SJB, the public security side, was that there's a lack of

22 basic conditions for survival in the Muslim-controlled area of Sarajevo;

23 right? That's what you report up in this document? Yes or no?

24 A. That's correct. But could we please go back to the first page.

25 The 2nd of July, 1995, is the date of this dispatch. As early as

Page 40201

1 the 15th of June there were hundreds of documents that mentioned

2 offensives launched from Sarajevo against our positions. If the

3 situation had been so catastrophic, a large-scale offensive wouldn't have

4 been launched against the Serbian positions. The offensive had already

5 lasted for 20 days by that time. You have scores of documents about this

6 matter. We could have a look at them. I don't know. When you are

7 preparing yourself, you probably saw that in mid-June an offensive was

8 launched in Sarajevo, against Sarajevo.

9 MR. TRALDI: I tender the document, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do, you said, sir, Mr. Traldi, that it

11 bears the witness's name. Can we see where it bears his name, please?

12 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, can we have the end of the document, please?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you so much.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 33181 receives Exhibit Number P7587,

16 Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

18 I have one question. What you're saying is - at least if I

19 understood you well - that the situation was, of course, not defined by

20 what you find here. Now, not in this way does this report say: Ignore

21 this because it's not the real situation, which we heard to the contrary.

22 It says what you can infer from that situation. So I'm a bit puzzled by

23 your answer saying, Well, this was reported as reflecting relevant

24 factual information to the minister, isn't it?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Orie, at that time we did

Page 40202

1 not have such a clear view of Sarajevo to be able to know things. This

2 is an intercepted conversation. We include it, but we don't have the

3 option of verifying it out in the field.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask: Where does it state that this

6 is an intercept, from this document? I'm a bit lost here.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on the basis of

9 comments by two Muslims, it can clearly be concluded. So these are

10 comments. In overviews such as this, you don't see the source of the

11 information. When you receive the dispatch from Sarajevo, then you can

12 conclude what the source of information was. This is just an overview.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The comments of the two Muslims refers to no army

14 success in Hadzici. It doesn't say anything about basic conditions of

15 survival not being present. And in any case, even though -- even if it

16 were referring to that, it doesn't show that this is an intercept. I'm

17 just asking where do we see that this is an intercept? You could have

18 heard Muslims talking to you. That's not an intercept, they're just

19 talking to you. Where do we find in this document that this is an

20 intercept?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Information such as this, you will

22 not get the source of the information. You will see that many things are

23 referred to here. Gojko Susak, what he thinks, then comments by two

24 Muslim citizens, and so on and so forth.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not answering my question, sir, I'm sorry.

Page 40203

1 You're not answering my question.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying, I'm trying to answer

3 you.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no, just show me in this document where we see

5 that this is an intercept. Don't tell me about Gojko somebody.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You cannot see that from this

7 document. No one can see it from this document.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's an answer to my question.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We need to find --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi. No, it's time for a

12 break.

13 MR. TRALDI: I do have one quick follow-up, but I'll save it for

14 after the break, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's do that.

16 Witness, we'll take a break and we'd like to see you back in

17 20 minutes from now. That's 25 minutes to 2.00. You may follow the

18 usher.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I see that you only need a few seconds

24 even. That's --

25 MR. TIEGER: Correct, Mr. President. Thank you. This is in

Page 40204

1 reference to the Defence motion filed on the 8th of October to add

2 witnesses to its 65 ter list. The Prosecution does not oppose.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

4 Then I'll deal briefly with another procedural matter.

5 Madam Registrar has prepared a list of the associated exhibits

6 which are not contested, which are not in dispute, and has assigned

7 numbers to them. That list will be filed this afternoon. And hereby the

8 Chamber admits into evidence D1300 up to and including D1320, and the

9 corresponding numbers are to be found on the list that will be filed this

10 afternoon by Madam Registrar.

11 And again, the one objected to is not included in this.

12 [The witness takes the stand]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kijac, we'll continue. May I urge you again to

14 focus your answer on what was asked. If any further explanation is

15 needed, either by Mr. Traldi or later by Mr. Lukic, they'll ask for it.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. Sir, sticking with the document in front of us, before the break

19 you said the source of the information contained in this report you can

20 conclude that when you received the dispatch from Sarajevo. That

21 dispatch from Sarajevo is the dispatch that the regional national

22 security centre sent to the head office; right?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And on the basis of the various regional dispatches, you and your

25 team would draft the daily report to send to the deputy minister and the

Page 40205

1 head of the public security sector; right?

2 A. Yes, that was the procedure.

3 Q. And you would choose what information from the regional reports

4 to provide to the deputy minister; right?

5 A. Either myself or the chief of analysis, all would receive

6 documents in their sphere of work, the papers, and then they would mark

7 for analysis parts that were interesting. And then the analysis sector

8 would draft a report like this one which would -- which then I would

9 sign.

10 Q. And you and your team would not -- let me start the question

11 again.

12 You and your team would provide to the deputy minister

13 information that you found important, information you found reliable;

14 right?

15 A. We would provide -- well, if I may be a little bit broader,

16 Your Honours, to explain to Mr. Traldi.

17 Perhaps we would receive 100 pieces of information from the

18 field. What you can see, perhaps 20 of them could be used, 80 per cent

19 would not be interesting, but the 20 would be used to draft a document

20 like this. At that point, we would not know how reliable the information

21 was. It was war, you know. We did not have the support in order to be

22 able to monitor any area. We would accept what the operative would send

23 from the field, but we would not have the opportunity to verify it. We

24 would send it like that.

25 Perhaps -- here's an example, if the Court would permit me, I

Page 40206

1 could be a bit more detailed. We get information that a sabotage group

2 infiltrate a certain area. They would say information was available. We

3 would pass that on. This information would not necessarily have to be

4 true. We would be obliged to warn the military intelligence organ that

5 this could possibly happen.

6 Q. But you certainly wouldn't include it if you knew or believed it

7 to be false; right?

8 A. I did not have the option once I received the paper to verify it.

9 You understand? All I would look for is to see whether it was something

10 important or not important. I didn't have the opportunity to verify it

11 because every day something new would happen. In peacetime when he would

12 send information like this to me, I would react in an instructional way.

13 Because, in the service, we would also be providing instructions, so then

14 we would order them to do such and such a thing to verify information.

15 But at this point, from day to day, when things were happening like that,

16 you didn't have the chance to verify this information. Perhaps I can

17 take an example from those documents.

18 In one of our informations, it would say that so many Muslims

19 escaped from Pilica, let's say. Later I read a report done by the

20 international forces and they established that this was not so, but we

21 did include it in one of these information reports. We passed it on, but

22 we didn't know whether this was a verified piece of information or not.

23 It was up to us to ring the alarm at a given point in time.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that's a rather long explanation of how it

25 worked. But if you had some doubts, you would express that in a report,

Page 40207

1 isn't it, or if you would have some doubts on whether it was reliable or

2 not?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have that kind of

4 insight, whether something was verified or not, whether it was suspicious

5 or not. I just would get the piece of paper.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I take you to page 1 of this

7 document.

8 Almost at the bottom, in English at least, I don't know where it

9 is in -- yes, I think it's also the semi-last paragraph. It says:

10 "According to unverified information, a member of UNPROFOR has reported

11 that there were about," this and this and this. So isn't it true that

12 your answer just a second ago squarely contradicts what we find here in

13 the report, that if there were reasons to make clear that it was

14 unverified, and you would do that if there is doubt, isn't it, that you

15 would put that in the report. You said you couldn't do that, but I see

16 that it was done in the report.

17 Do you have an explanation for that? A short explanation,

18 please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would depend on the dispatch.

20 This dispatch that came regarding 5.000 Mujahedin from Islamic countries,

21 it says that it was an unverified piece of information and that is how we

22 would convey it. Where this is stated, then we would also pass it on

23 like that. We would also mention it.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which is not fully consistent with all your

25 previous answers where you didn't make such a -- such a condition.

Page 40208

1 But let's move on.

2 Mr. Traldi.

3 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to turn now to the Trnovo part of the

4 Sarajevo-Trnovo theatre. And can we have P345. And this is another of

5 General Mladic's notebooks from the war. If we could have page 209 in

6 the English, 211 in the B/C/S.

7 We see here in the English - and we're just getting the B/C/S -

8 General Mladic's notes of a meeting on 30 June 1995 with Slobodan

9 Milosevic at the VJ General Staff.

10 If we could turn to page 211 in the English, 213 in the B/C/S, we

11 see under Milosevic's initials a discussion of the 5th Corps and then a

12 mention of Krupa. And turning to the next page, at the end of

13 Milosevic's remarks, we read:

14 "Jovica should resolve logistics problems and let the RS resolve

15 this problem of holding up convoys."

16 And then we see someone with the initials JS is recorded as the

17 next speaker in General Mladic's notes.

18 Q. Now, given the level of the meeting and what you've read here,

19 you can tell that JS and Jovica, those refer to your counterpart in

20 DB Serbia, Jovica Stanisic; right?

21 MR. LUKIC: Objection. Calls for clear speculation.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's a leading question, that's clear. But

23 the witness can answer the question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't be able to say.

25 MR. TRALDI:

Page 40209

1 Q. How many Jovicas with the last initial S can you think of who

2 would have been at a level to attend this meeting?

3 MR. LUKIC: Objection. Where do we see that in JS that it's

4 Jovica?

5 JUDGE ORIE: JS, I think it is -- Mr. Traldi.

6 MR. TRALDI: Sure, Your Honour. First, I'd put to the witness a

7 question, but, second, the basis for my question is that Milosevic says

8 what Jovica should do and then JS is the next speaker. I think that's

9 sufficient to put a question on cross-examination.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is denied.

11 MR. LUKIC: So the previous sentence --

12 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no. I given a ruling. The previous

13 sentence is sufficient basis to put the question, not to draw any

14 definitive conclusions. It's sufficient basis for the question.

15 Please proceed. A question which is leading, indeed.

16 MR. TRALDI:

17 Q. Do you need me to repeat the question, sir?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. This is a meeting with Mladic and Slobodan Milosevic at the VJ

20 General Staff. How many people with the first name Jovica and the last

21 initial S can you name who as of 30 June 1995 were at a sufficient level

22 of seniority to attend this meeting?

23 A. I cannot think along those lines.

24 Q. Try with me. This isn't a casual gathering. It's a meeting at

25 the VJ General Staff. The two people that you know are there are the

Page 40210

1 president of Serbia and the commander of the VRS Main Staff. How many

2 Jovicas -- let me put it to you this way.

3 If this were a piece of information that were coming before you

4 in your work as -- in national security, in your intelligence work, you

5 would act on the basis that the most likely conclusion is that's

6 Jovica Stanisic that's being referred to, wouldn't you? Yes or no?

7 A. First of all, Mr. Traldi, this is something that would not come

8 to my desk. Let's understand each other. We were not a service that was

9 monitoring such high-level people. Try to put a question to me and I

10 will try to answer it. First of all, to go into this, I can't even read

11 it. I mean, if you put a question to me, I will reply. I mean, there's

12 no dispute about that.

13 Q. Sir, I appreciate --

14 JUDGE ORIE: A question was put to you, and then you answered

15 that you couldn't think in those lines. Simple question now is: Could

16 you know, could you give us any name of a person by the initials JS who

17 would be in such a position to attend a meeting where Mr. Milosevic and

18 Mr. Mladic would be present? Can you give us any suggestion?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot be thinking along those

20 lines, Your Honours. At this point, I cannot recall initials, who was

21 the prime minister, who was the president of the republic, and all those

22 different initials.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If there would have been a person present

24 there by the first name Jovica, and if the last name would be -- would

25 start with an S, would you have any suggestion who that could have been?

Page 40211

1 And Mr. Traldi suggests to that you it may have been Jovica Stanisic.

2 But if you have any other idea of who that could have been, you're

3 invited to tell us.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not ruling it out.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That was not my question, whether you could rule it

6 out. My question was whether you could think of any -- witness, the

7 question was whether you could think of any other person by the first

8 name Jovica, last name starting with an S, who would be at such a level

9 that he could attend such a meeting.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this moment, no.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. TRALDI: Can we have page 213 in the English, page 215 in the

14 B/C/S.

15 Q. Now we see JS is recorded beginning at the bottom of the page by

16 General Mladic to say:

17 "They should not be engaged (we gave 80 from you Erdut, we gave

18 80 from Djeletovci ..."

19 Now, you know that DB Serbia had a unit known as the Skorpions

20 based at Djeletovci; right?

21 A. I know that there was a unit there called the Skorpions, but I

22 don't know who was in charge of that unit.

23 Q. Let's see if we can refresh your recollection.

24 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 06767.

25 Q. Now this is a document coming from General Mladic dated the

Page 40212

1 1st of July, 1995, the next day, re the telegram of the MUP of Serbia's

2 antiterrorist unit from the 30th of June, 1995. He describes how he

3 should be informed if anyone is seriously wounded in the Trnovo sector.

4 And then turning to the next page in the English, says:

5 "The MUP of the RS in Pale shall notify representatives of the

6 MUP of Serbia and Colonel Golic of our decision."

7 Now, the MUP of Serbia had to be informed about decisions about

8 how information would come about events in the Trnovo sector because

9 there were MUP Serbia forces present there; right?

10 A. First of all, I would comment it like this. I'm seeing this

11 paper for the first time. It's the 1st of July, 1995, and you can see

12 that it's addressed to the RS Pale MUP. At that point in time I was not

13 representing the MUP of Pale. So combat units and what was being used

14 was something that was addressed at the minister of the interior, not to

15 the chief of the department. We don't have units in the field, don't

16 participate in the front. All we do is report what we observe in the

17 field. And up here at the top you can see that this is addressed to the

18 RS Pale MUP, not to the National Security Service. You can look at the

19 information of the Main Staff. That's where it says that it's been

20 sent to me, that it's addressed personally to Dragan Kijac.

21 Q. Sir, we may have occasion to look at some of those documents, but

22 at the moment you've answered at least one question but not the one that

23 I asked you. You know based on having an operative in the Trnovo

24 theatre, where you said your attention was focused at the beginning of

25 July 1995, you know there were MUP Serbia forces present there, just

Page 40213

1 like -- or consistent with what General Mladic is writing in this

2 document; right?

3 A. I would like to look at the dispatch saying that these forces

4 were there. Could you please show that to me? I don't want to speculate

5 right now.

6 JUDGE ORIE: No. You were asked whether you know it. If you

7 know it, tell us; if you don't know it, don't tell us. Don't invite

8 Mr. Traldi to present to you the evidence of what he asks you.

9 Do you -- simple question therefore: Were you aware that there

10 were MUP Serbia forces present there? And we're talking about Trnovo.

11 You were not --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, sir, we had nothing to do

13 with the combat forces.

14 JUDGE ORIE: My question was not whether you something to do with

15 it, but whether you knew it. And your answer is simply no.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

17 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 09562.

18 Q. As it comes up, there were also RS MUP units on the Trnovo front;

19 right?

20 A. What do you take RS to mean?

21 Q. Republika Srpska, sir.

22 A. Well, in Trnovo, there was a police staff. This is the first

23 time I have seen this piece of paper, and you can see that Savo

24 Cvjetinovic, whom I know, was the head of that staff.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, stop -- stop you again. Were there also

Page 40214

1 RS MUP units on the Trnovo front? If you know, tell us; if you don't

2 know, tell us as well.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of this paper I can

4 see that they were present there.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking to interpret a document. That

6 document is shown to you, perhaps, but the question is: Were they there?

7 If you know tell us; if you don't know, tell us as well.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Mr. Orie, but you

9 must allow me to --

10 JUDGE ORIE: No --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- formulate my answer in a couple

12 of sentences.

13 JUDGE ORIE: No. You are only allowed to answer the questions

14 and not tell us what you would say on a question that was not put to you.

15 Mr. Traldi.

16 Yes, by the way, we'd like to have an answer still, because I've

17 asked you now three times. Where there also RS MUP units at the Trnovo

18 front?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the minister of the

20 interior deploys the units. I don't know where the units were.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was his sole authority to decide

23 where the units would be deployed.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Again -- I'm not talking about authority. I can

25 imagine of three answers: Yes, they were there; no, they were not there;

Page 40215

1 or I don't know. Which of the three is it? Irrespective of who sent

2 them there, whatever happened, whose authority it was, is it a yes; is it

3 a no; or is it I don't know?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that they were there. I'm

5 not trying to evade this, Mr. Orie.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And what's the basis for your assumption?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's because special police

8 brigade units and special police units mainly participated in helping the

9 army wherever there was an offensive. Trnovo was a location where every

10 two or three month there was large-scale combat. I assume, I believe

11 this is the case, that Ministry of Interior units co-operated with the

12 Republika Srpska army because they were present in all battlefields. But

13 as to whether it was the 2nd or 3rd Company or special police brigade, I

14 really could not say.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer is: Yes, but I do not know what

16 specific units. I see you nodding yes. That's hereby on the record.

17 Why don't you tell us this immediately? Why don't you tell us: What

18 units exactly there were, I do not know, but I know that such units were

19 there?

20 Mr. Traldi will now put his next question and you're invited to

21 answer the question.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Orie, I said that this was my

23 assumption. I nodded in the sense that wanted to indicate that it was my

24 assumption, as I have already said.

25 MR. TRALDI:

Page 40216

1 Q. Now in the tenth line down on the B/C/S, sir, we read that part

2 of the defence line is held by the Skorpions and then it says "MUP

3 Serbia." You mentioned a few moments ago you knew was a unit in

4 Djeletovci called the Skorpions. You -- does this refresh your

5 recollection as to whether that was a MUP Serbia unit?

6 A. No, Mr. Traldi. No. I know of the existence of the Skorpions.

7 I read it about it in print. For about 15 years there was Skorpions in

8 existence, but as to being able to confirm that they were in the Trnovo

9 area, I can't confirm this.

10 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you --

11 A. It's probably 90 per cent certain. You probably have a paper to

12 that effect.

13 Q. I'm going to interrupt you and ask you again to try to answer my

14 question. Does this, yes or no, refresh your recollection as to whether

15 the Skorpions were under the control of MUP Serbia as Mr. Cvjetinovic

16 writes here?

17 A. I can't answer such a question. I can't answer such a question.

18 How am I to know whether they were there or not? If you had asked me

19 with my own men, I would have said they were under my authority.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The simple answer is: It doesn't refresh my

21 recollection. That's apparently the gist of what you say.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. TRALDI:

24 Q. So do I understand correctly that the National Security Sector of

25 the Republika Srpska, when its attention was focused on a particular

Page 40217

1 theatre, it could miss the entry of affiliated forces? It wouldn't be

2 aware of what organisations those forces were affiliated with even if it

3 exchanged information on a daily basis with that other organisation?

4 That's the level of intelligence work you're telling me the National

5 Security Sector of the Republika Srpska did?

6 A. That's quite right. I had no information as to whether they were

7 there or not. Our people didn't focus on the situation of the army and

8 the police. They focused on the situation as regards the lines. That's

9 one matter. And the time we are speaking about is July. There was

10 already an offensive in Glamoc, Visoko, Krajina, and so on and so forth.

11 Q. I'm going to --

12 A. Three days after the appearance of this paper --

13 Q. I think you've answered my question.

14 MR. TRALDI: I tender the last two documents.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 09562 receives Exhibit Number P7588,

17 Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 06767 receives Exhibit Number P7589,

21 Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

23 MR. TRALDI:

24 Q. Sir, sticking with events in July 1995, do I correctly understand

25 from your Karadzic testimony that your evidence is you didn't know about

Page 40218

1 the massacres in Srebrenica until the year 2000?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P7025.

4 Q. This is an article by Robert Block published in the London

5 Independent on the 17th of July, 1995, titled: "Bodies pile up in horror

6 of Srebrenica." He starts by referring to a videocamera panning across

7 the ground in front of a building, then refers to what initially appear

8 to be bundles of abandoned belongings. But then in third paragraph the

9 reporter says there are many dead Muslim soldiers. He says this is was a

10 report by the independent Serb television channel, Studio B, and that the

11 scene looked like a place of summary execution.

12 Did you miss this information when it was published about

13 2.000 kilometres away on the 17th of July, 1995?

14 A. Well, first of all, I have to say that in my statement I said

15 that from the 14th to the 18th I was at my deputy's wedding. I wasn't in

16 the area of Republika Srpska.

17 Q. Sir, I'm not at the moment inviting you to repeat your statement.

18 Did you miss the information on the 17th of July? Yes or no?

19 A. I didn't have any such information. With your leave, Mr. Traldi,

20 may I say something else, one more sentence? With your leave, I would

21 like to say the following. Studio B as in the interrogation with -- or

22 examination with [indiscernible], I didn't which film was concerned. I

23 heard about the Studio B making this recording public. It was

24 confiscated later on. But Studio B is a media company that can only

25 broadcast in the area of the Belgrade municipality, so the broadcast

Page 40219

1 can't be received elsewhere in Serbia. I was in Montenegro at the

2 wedding, so I couldn't have been informed about such things at the time.

3 Q. And I understand you claim you were in Montenegro. Do you also

4 claim that when you got back nobody was talking about a video published

5 just a few dozen kilometres away, broadcast just a few dozen kilometres

6 away, showing huge numbers of dead Muslims?

7 MR. LUKIC: Few dozen kilometres away. Belgrade is not a

8 few dozen kilometres away. If it's local station it's crucial --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic --

10 MR. TRALDI: I'll defer to Mr. Lukic on the distance, I think.

11 Perhaps for efficiency, I'll simply move to the next document. Can we

12 have 65 ter 33169.

13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: It's just a blank white page apparently which is

15 under this number.

16 MR. TRALDI: I think we've just released it, Your Honour, and I

17 apologise for the delay.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Give it another try, Madam Registrar, since

19 it's released now.

20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: What apparently -- no, we now have -- at least I see

22 on other screens around me, not all the screens are giving the same

23 image.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It appeared in e-court instead of the transcript.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 40220

1 JUDGE ORIE: It's on some our of screens. Life is not always

2 fair to everyone.

3 MR. TRALDI: I can summarise the essential part for efficiency,

4 Your Honours.

5 Looking at the ninth paragraph in the middle of the first column,

6 we read that a group of Bosnian Serb special police forces under the

7 command of Ljubisa Borovcanin had been responsible for some of the

8 executions. We read about a video and we see that "the Bosnian Serbs in

9 Pale have tried to have it confiscated."

10 Q. Is it your evidence that on 22nd of July, when the Studio B video

11 had been shown on Belgrade TV, when it had made it to coverage in

12 North American newspapers who were reporting on executions allegedly

13 committed by forces including RS MUP forces, and when the Bosnian Serbs

14 in Pale were trying to have the video confiscated, you still somehow

15 managed to avoid learning about the executions? Yes or no?

16 A. The Bosnian Serbs from Pale, I don't know who they are. That's

17 the first thing. It certainly wasn't me or my service. We didn't have

18 such information on the 22nd. And on the 25th, I was already in the

19 Krajina area.

20 Q. So your answer is, yes, you somehow missed the information again

21 on the 22nd; right?

22 A. I didn't receive such information. If I had received such

23 information, I probably wouldn't have missed it.

24 Q. Now, you did know in 1996 that witnesses -- early 1996 that

25 witnesses before this Tribunal had already at that time described

Page 40221

1 executions of large numbers of Muslim men and boys; right?

2 A. No.

3 MR. TRALDI: I see the time. I wonder, just to complete this

4 line, if I might have two minutes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the interpreter's booth, whether --

6 yes, there's a thumbs-up for your suggestion, Mr. Traldi.

7 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P3355.

8 Q. Now, you recognise your signature here on the first page, right,

9 sir?

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry, Mr. Traldi, the P number as

11 transcribed, we haven't reached 3300 yet. Can you repeat the number,

12 please.

13 MR. TRALDI: 3355, Your Honour, thank you.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

15 MR. TRALDI:

16 Q. And you recognise your name and signature here on the first page;

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to page 2, the third paragraph from

20 the bottom in the English.

21 Q. We see references to two witnesses in The Hague who had made

22 statements that they were present at the time the VRS shot civilians in

23 Srebrenica.

24 So by 1996, you did know, didn't you, that witnesses before this

25 Tribunal were already at that time describing the executions; right?

Page 40222

1 A. Could you enlarge the paragraph, zoom in on the paragraph,

2 please.

3 Mr. Traldi, this is a text from the IFOR source. Is that what we

4 are referring to. An IFOR base in Dubrave near Tuzla, is that the part

5 you are referring to?

6 JUDGE ORIE: It's the paragraph after that, I take it,

7 Mr. Traldi.

8 MR. TRALDI: [Microphone not activated] It is. Thank you,

9 Your Honour.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you be so kind as to zoom in,

11 please. Yes.

12 MR. TRALDI:

13 Q. So you agree now that did you know this in 1996; right?

14 A. This is information from the State Security Department that I

15 received, and I just conveyed it to the Ministry of Justice, which at the

16 time had started having contact with The Hague representatives. But this

17 isn't the only paragraph that is in question. There is a paragraph that

18 precedes it. I would like you to read it out as well. It's not just a

19 matter of an investigation. This is something that we received from

20 other sources cooperating with us.

21 Q. Sir, I didn't put to you that it was an investigation, certainly.

22 What I put to you was you knew witnesses were saying it, you denied it.

23 I understand you've now corrected that. And that completes my questions

24 on the document. With one exception, actually.

25 MR. TRALDI: Can we just see the end.

Page 40223

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not denying this. All I am

2 saying is that this was alleged. I provided information that such things

3 were being done, but I didn't have any concrete information. Information

4 has to be verified. There were rumours. There were rumours, I don't

5 deny that. But this information arrived on my desk from associates or

6 collaborators among the Muslims. It says what it says, and I don't cast

7 doubt on that.

8 MR. TRALDI:

9 Q. Now, the last thing you write -- or the last paragraph you write

10 begins:

11 "We are sending you this information believing that it could be

12 used for the defence."

13 And that was your priority on hearing that there were allegations

14 that the VRS and MUP forces had massacred thousands of defenceless

15 people. Your priority was to get information to the Ministry of Justice

16 so a defence could be organised; right?

17 A. Well, look, at the time, people spoke about Srebrenica. There

18 were rumours. They started performing exhumations. We sent this to the

19 Ministry of Justice that then established initial contact with

20 Ms. Louise Arbour. Naturally, we wanted to clarify matters because in an

21 earlier part of the document it says that one of the commanders killed

22 30 men, 30 people, and eyewitnesses made statements to such an effect. I

23 wasn't aware of that, and I cannot make such a claim now. An operative

24 drafted this, and we relayed the information. Let's have a look at the

25 first paragraph, please.

Page 40224

1 Q. Sir, if Mr. Lukic wants to show that you on re-direct, he is

2 welcome to. We'll explore your attempts to clarify matters before the

3 Tribunal more tomorrow.

4 MR. TRALDI: For now, I appreciate everyone's indulgence.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Kijac, we'll adjourn for the day. We'd

6 like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30. And I again instruct you

7 that you should not speak or communicate with whomever about your

8 testimony, whether already given or whether still to be given. You may

9 now follow the usher.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow,

12 Thursday, the 22nd of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

13 courtroom, I.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.24 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of

16 October, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.