1 Wednesday, 21 October 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 No preliminaries were announced. Therefore, we'll then continue
12 with the examination of the witness, but we first should turn into closed
13 session in order to allow the witness to enter the courtroom.
14 [Closed session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 Good morning, Witness GRM097.
3 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that your
5 still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given yesterday at the
6 beginning of your testimony. And the full Bench is present again.
7 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 WITNESS: GRM097 [Resumed]
11 Examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]
12 Q. Good morning, sir.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Yesterday, at the end of the day, we looked at a cable yesterday
15 from Yasushi Akashi dated 16 August 1994 talking about weapon collection
16 points and with a protocol that was attached and we discussed that.
17 MR. IVETIC: Today I'd like to take a look at P631 in e-court.
18 And I have a hard copy also that we could give to the witness with the
19 assistance of the usher after showing again to counsel. It's the same
20 document from yesterday but I have now the correct number.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And what is the number?
22 MR. IVETIC: P631.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 MR. IVETIC: We have blank screens on our sides. I don't know if
25 that's what Your Honours have as well. Okay.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We -- let me just have a look.
2 Yes, in e-court I have the English version before me but not on
3 my other screen, and I see that others do have it in both versions. But
4 not for us.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: We still don't have any version, but I also see it
7 on other screens it's different in this courtroom. Well, I see a few
8 here. But those who are most in need of looking at the document don't
9 have it.
10 MS. EDGERTON: No. We also have a black screen, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll seek the assistance of technicians or one
13 MR. IVETIC: I do have one more hard copy that I could give to my
14 colleagues in the Prosecution so at least they have it. And then I leave
15 it up to Your Honours whether we should wait or proceed since these are
16 my last questions and I can't move to another area, unfortunately.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, I see that. For us, the disadvantage is that we
18 can't have then -- if we have it in e-court on our screens, we can't
19 follow the transcript and that's important for us as well.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, something appeared on the left screen,
22 although not what we expected.
23 English versions will be printed out for the time being.
24 The witness has it before him. Mr. Ivetic, I take it that you
25 have a copy before you.
1 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, you have a copy before you as well?
3 Then let's proceed for the time being.
4 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
5 Q. Sir, what you have in front of you and hopefully the rest of us
6 will have shortly in front of us is dated 12 September 1994. It is from
7 Akashi UNPROFOR Zagreb to Annan Nations New York and it talks about
8 weapons collections points and discusses the prior document we looked at
9 yesterday dated 16 August 1994 with the protocol. And in the -- first of
10 all, sir, have you had a chance to review this document a few days ago?
11 A. Yes, I have, yes.
12 Q. And in relation to this document, it says in the third
13 paragraph the last lines:
14 "The Bosnian Serb side nevertheless reserved its right to take
15 adequate measures of self-defence in case of attack by the other side.
16 We did not endorse their position."
17 And then the document goes on to say that the protocol that was
18 attached to the prior memo has no legal standing.
19 Now, having read this document, sir, based upon your
20 recollection, knowledge, and understanding of the weapon collection
21 points, what comments do you have about the assertions in this letter
22 about the right to self-defence not being endorsed by the UN?
23 A. This is the first time I've seen this (redacted)
25 (redacted) And this letter is
1 totally not in principle with what was agreed on that day. The whole
2 reason why the weapons collection points were established was because of
3 legitimate Bosnian Serb fears that if the other side broke the agreement,
4 their advantage particularly in infantry would mean that they could
5 quickly overrun territory controlled by what -- the Bosnian Serb army
6 without the heavy weapons to support any counter-attack.
7 And so for that reason, as I said yesterday, the Bosnian
8 government side wanted (redacted)
10 (redacted) agreed on the
11 20-kilometre zone. But to satisfy the concerns, which were legitimate
12 concerns, of the Bosnian Serb army, this is why we established a series
13 of weapons zones -- weapon collections points around Sarajevo so that if
14 attacked - and that was if attacked - that they could then defend
15 themselves. Which, again, it was in the spirit of Article 60 of the
16 Geneva Convention which was attached to the UN Security Council
17 Resolution on the establishment of safe areas, which, of course, Sarajevo
18 was a safe area. And therefore, if attacked, the party that was attacked
19 therefore was no longer bound by the demilitarised aspect of the
21 Q. Thank you. And one other matter that we need to discuss.
22 MR. IVETIC: And if we could go into private session briefly for
24 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
25 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are kindly asked to pause between
2 question and answer, and make sure that they're not too fast in order for
3 the interpretation to be accurate. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that's perfectly clear. We should
5 follow the strong suggestion.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Sir, on behalf of General Mladic and the rest of the Defence team
9 I thank you for answering questions these last two days for us.
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that's the conclusion of my direct
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
13 Witness GRM097, you will now be cross-examined by Ms. Edgerton.
14 You find Ms. Edgerton to your right.
15 Ms. Edgerton, if you're ready, please proceed.
16 MS. EDGERTON: I am. Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. I'd like to start with something that you spoke about later on in
21 your evidence yesterday, and if I can just have your indulgence for a
22 moment to see the transcript of yesterday.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, there's a message that the microphone
24 should be shut off.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'd forgotten that.
1 Please proceed.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence. That's why I asked for
16 indulgence earlier. Perhaps -- just a moment, please.
17 Yes, if we could move into private session, please, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 40123-40132 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MS. EDGERTON: I'm afraid, Your Honour, I was mistaken. I think
4 we'll need to stay in private session for this.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We turn back into private session.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 40135-40141 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 We are not in open session for a long time because we take a
7 break. We'll first move into closed session so as to make the protective
8 measures effective, and we'll resume in 20 minutes. And we'll start in
9 closed session in order to allow the witness to enter the courtroom.
10 We turn into closed session.
11 [Closed session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 I remind both the witness and you, Ms. Edgerton - by the way,
9 also myself - that there should be a break between question and answer,
10 and answer and question.
11 Please proceed.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment.
13 Q. Just by way of an introduction, I want to move on to another area
14 now that took up a substantial part of our time yesterday, and that's the
15 shelling of the market-place in Sarajevo on 5 February 1994.
16 Now, to begin with, you accept, don't you, that the blast that
17 killed so many and injured so many more on the 5th of February was caused
18 by a single mortar shell, don't you?
19 A. That's what the analysis said, yes. That's the accepted version
20 of what happened. There were other conspiracy theories but that's the
21 conclusion that was drawn, yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you were asked about what you accept, not
23 what others accept --
24 THE WITNESS: I accept that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You accept that. So, therefore, the other theories
1 are not yours.
2 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 Please proceed.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
6 Q. And you have never conducted a crater analysis; correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 MS. EDGERTON: And if we could go into private session briefly,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
11 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
4 Q. And are you -- you're -- you didn't know that, just on top of
5 that, that this wasn't an isolated incident that day at all, and, in
6 fact, that UNMOs that day had confirmed 55 mixed impacts coming into
7 Bosnian-held areas and zero outgoing. You're not aware of that, are you?
8 A. I was not aware of that.
9 Q. All right.
10 MS. EDGERTON: And that is in reference to P7538, Your Honours.
11 Q. And you can't read a mortar firing table; correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Your experience is originally as an antitank officer?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And it's also correct that you have never reviewed the specific
16 findings of the UN expert commission that was convened by Ambassador
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And you have no knowledge of any local or other technical
20 investigations that might have been conducted into the incident; correct?
21 A. That's not correct.
22 MS. EDGERTON: If we could go into private session, please,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 40146-40171 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 Witness GRM097, this concludes your testimony in this court. I
1 would like to thank you very much for coming the way to The Hague and for
2 having answered all the questions that were put to you, put to you by the
3 parties, put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home
5 Before you leave this courtroom, we'll go into closed session as
6 to make the protective measures effective. And I take it that we'll --
7 after the break, that we'll resume in open session and that will be in
8 20 minutes from now.
9 Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: That's correct. I would only be asked to excused
11 also while we're in closed session so I can go do other tasks.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes.
13 Witness, you may follow the usher once we are in closed session.
14 We turn into closed session.
15 And we take a break until ten minutes past 12.00.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The microphone is open.
17 [Closed session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes past 12.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you're on your feet.
5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, good afternoon. Two follow-up exhibit
6 issues. We've uploaded new versions of the two Assembly sessions that
7 I'd used on Monday. First, we've uploaded 65 ter 02362C, which includes
8 the portion of the 22nd Assembly Session already admitted as P7196, and
9 also Ms. Plavsic's remarks were used on Monday. If the Defence doesn't
10 object, we'd ask that the court officer be instructed to replace P7196
11 with 65 ter 02362C and that it be admitted into evidence.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections, Mr. Lukic? Not at this moment. But
13 you know always within 48 hours you have an opportunity to revisit the
15 Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to replace the present
16 version of P7196 by the newly uploaded one as just referred to by
17 Mr. Traldi.
18 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps we ...
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check. Was P7196, was it marked for
23 identification only? If so, we have to decide on admission. If it was
24 already --
25 MR. TRALDI: When I enter it into Ring-Tail, the exhibit status I
1 get is EXH. But it was initially marked during the testimony of, I
2 think, Witness Solaja to make a selection and then it was used again with
3 Witness Sokanovic that --
4 JUDGE ORIE: But present status --
5 MR. TRALDI: But my understanding is --
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll ask Madam Registrar to confirm what the
7 present status is.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: It has exhibit status. Therefore replacement of the
10 content is sufficient and we don't have to need a further decision on
12 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, may I address you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may. But first I think I would like to
14 say, Mr. Kijac, welcome back in court. We were dealing with a few
15 procedural matters when you entered the courtroom. I leave it in
16 Mr. Lukic's hands at this moment, whether he needs to do something which
17 really can't wait until a later moment, and then I would ask a bit of
19 Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 I spoke with Mr. Traldi, and for him to be able to plan his
22 cross-examination, we agreed that I should offer associated exhibits into
23 evidence what I forgot to do yesterday --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yesterday. The day before --
25 MR. LUKIC: The day before yesterday.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then we have to deal with that first,
2 Mr. Kijac.
3 MR. LUKIC: So maybe Ms. Registrar could associate numbers.
4 There is a list.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar, for the associated exhibits
6 have you prepared already a list and have you assigned numbers, or are
7 you in a position to assign numbers now?
8 Yes ...
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 MR. LUKIC: We didn't prepare Madam Registrar for this
11 proceeding. We talk among each other. And maybe Mr. Traldi just can say
12 if he has any objections and then we can assign the numbers later.
13 MR. TRALDI: We have, as set out in our 92 ter response, only an
14 objection to one which is 65 ter 1D05433. That was denied as an
15 associated exhibit in the Karadzic case, denied admission in the context
16 of the same statement, the same document, and in the absence of any
17 compelling reason, we suggest that it also be denied here.
18 When numbers are assigned, I'd just -- Mr. Lukic made a
19 correction to the annex to their filing on Monday and the assignment
20 should refer to 04068 rather than 09661 consistent with the correction he
21 made on Monday.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we then proceed already on the basis of
23 knowing that there are no objections apart from this one. And whatever
24 the Karadzic Chamber may have decided, of course, that's not in any way
25 binding upon us. We may not even fully know why they denied it and we'll
1 make our own assessment, our own judgement on admissibility. But that
2 being clear, I think we could continue at this moment.
3 Madam Registrar will then further prepare a list, perhaps not yet
4 include that one contested associated exhibit, and we proceed meanwhile.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. TRALDI: And just to clarify our position, Your Honour, I
8 certainly hadn't suggested that the Trial Chamber simply unthinkingly
9 adopt what another Chamber had done, but to suggest that, in our
10 submission, the document is not integral and indispensable to the
11 understanding of the witness's statement and so should be denied as it
12 was in that previous case.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that.
14 Then please proceed.
15 Mr. Kijac, we'll now -- again we'll further hear your testimony
16 rather than to bore you with all kind of administrative matters.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you again
19 that you'll still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at
20 the beginning of -- apparently there is a -- is the volume okay?
21 THE WITNESS: No.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you first check whether everything
23 is okay there.
24 Yes? Okay. It works again, so I remind you again that you're
25 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of
1 your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
2 butt truth.
3 Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.
4 Mr. Traldi.
5 WITNESS: DRAGAN KIJAC [Resumed]
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]
8 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. Now I want to turn today to your evidence about events in
11 Sarajevo in 1992.
12 In paragraphs 16 through 19 of your statement, you describe the
13 barricades which were set up in Sarajevo in early March 1992. You say
14 you don't know that the SDS had a Crisis Staff at the Holiday Inn hotel
15 that day and you were at your office the whole time.
16 Have I correctly understood your evidence on this point?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, the Chamber has received the evidence of a Defence witness
19 named Nedjo Vlaski. You knew him personally; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. He was a co-worker of yours in March 1992?
22 A. No.
23 Q. He was --
24 A. In March 1992, no.
25 Q. He was a co-worker of yours, first, in the SNB of the RS MUP
1 during the war; right?
2 A. Yes, there was a decision for him at the MUP. But you're talking
3 about March 1992. At that time, I was the secretary of the city SUP, and
4 as far as I know, Nedjo Vlaski at the time was in the security service of
5 the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Vlaski, your co-worker during the war, testified at
7 transcript page 27790 that you were at the Holiday Inn at the time the
8 barricades were set up. That's the truth; right?
9 A. No, that is not true. I was outside of Sarajevo when the
10 barricades were set up, and I found out about them only in the evening at
11 about 9.00 p.m. And once I learnt that the barricades were erected, I
12 managed to enter the city secretariat. That's where I spent the night.
13 I wasn't at the Holiday Inn, and I didn't leave the office until the
14 situation was -- let me put it this way, was normalised.
15 Q. So Mr. Vlaski, in your submission, is lying that you were at the
16 Holiday Inn?
17 MR. LUKIC: Objection. "Lying" we, first, don't use in this
18 courtroom. Second, it doesn't mean that he can have the other
19 impression. Lying.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Traldi, you wanted to ask the witness, I
21 take it, that this witness contests the truth of that testimony.
22 MR. TRALDI: I do.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And please choose your words in this way yourself --
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. So you then contest the truth of Mr. Vlaski's testimony that you
1 were at the Holiday Inn.
2 A. I don't know what Mr. Vlaski said. I can confirm that the entire
3 time I spent at my office at the city Secretariat of the Interior, that I
4 had two of my assistants with me. Mr. Leotar was a crimes assistant and
5 Mr. Redzep Adzic was the police assistant. I didn't leave anywhere until
6 the situation was normalised. I think remained there for 24 hours
7 directly managing the action from my office. I don't know about
8 Mr. Vlaski. Perhaps he was there, and it's possible that he has his own
10 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 03838. Now this is an interview
11 with Momcilo Mandic published in Slobodna Bosna in 1998. If we could
12 turn to page 4 in both languages, and if we could zoom in on the middle
13 of the page in the B/C/S at the bottom under [B/C/S spoken].
14 Q. Mr. Mandic is asked about the barricades. He says Krajisnik and
15 Karadzic were in Belgrade. He refers to the Gardovic killing. And then
16 he says towards the end of the paragraph: Rajko Djukic headed
17 the committee for the organisation of barricades. I do not --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please, please, slowly reading.
19 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 I'll start that sentence again:
21 "Rajko Djukic headed the committee for the organisation of
22 barricades. I do not wish to hide anything. Dragan Kijac,
23 Mico Stanisic, myself, and some others from the MUP took part in this,
24 and we organised everything so as to avoid bloodshed and to show to the
25 public and Izetbegovic they could not act like that ..."
1 So you also organised -- took part in organising the barricades;
3 A. Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
4 MR. LUKIC: Sorry. The very text says differently than the
5 proposal, that this gentleman did everything to prevent bloodshed.
6 MR. TRALDI: No. And I --
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, no discussions about that.
8 You, Mr. Lukic, if you think that Mr. Traldi is misquoting any
9 statement, whether he quotes it in a context which is the one you'd like
10 to hear about is a different matter. Then you can say, Please quote
11 literally and then that will be done. And just as you sometimes select
12 certain portions you want to put to the witness, that is what Mr. Traldi
13 is allowed to do as well.
14 So if there is any inaccuracy in the quoting, Mr. Traldi should
15 take care of that. Other things have to remain until re-examination.
16 Is there any problem with the words quoted or a summary which is
18 MR. LUKIC: I have B/C/S version in front of me and I think that
19 it basically is the same as in English. I think that the context is
20 completely different.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Context is fine. Then you can clarify that
22 in re-examination. The only thing we're concerned about at this moment
23 is whether there is any misquote or an inaccurate summary.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. Sir, the truth is that, like Mr. Mandic says here, you took part
1 in organising the barricades; right?
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Traldi, my only problem with your line of
3 questioning is that we don't see in this passage that this witness was at
4 the Holiday Inn on that time.
5 MR. TRALDI: I -- I agree, Your Honour, and I framed the question
6 carefully this time that he took part in organising the barricades. And
7 so what I'm putting to him this time is that what Mr. Mandic said in the
8 interview is the truth.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: But what I'm trying to suggest is that question
10 that you are now putting is a shift from the first question and I'm not
11 sure whether indeed we're still pursuing the truthfulness or lack of
12 truthfulness of this witness who testified earlier or whether you're now
13 going into a different topic.
14 MR. TRALDI: Just to make it implicitly clear, Your Honour, the
15 case that I'm putting to the witness is that his description of his role
16 in these events is contradicted on multiple points by multiple sources
17 who knew him and had no incentive to do anything other than tell the
18 truth about his role.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. Just to briefly repeat my question, the truth, like Mr. Mandic
23 says here, is that you took part in organising the barricades; right?
24 A. No, Mr. Traldi. I came as the city secretary on the 24th of
25 February, so it was some days before the barricades. The barricades were
1 erected when the Serbian best man was killed. I think that was on the
2 1st of March, seven days after I took up my duties.
3 I know that Mr. Mandic participated in the barricades and that
4 Mr. Nedjo Vlaski had a self-inflicted injury there. But I did not take
5 part in the organisation of the barricades and I was not at the
6 Holiday Inn at the time. I didn't even know that the Crisis Staff, or
7 however you call it, was in session at the Holiday Inn. And since I was
8 not a member of the Serbian Democratic Party, I did not have any contacts
9 with the Serbian Democratic Party or with the people who -- such as Rajko
10 Dukic who are mentioned here and who were involved in that.
11 On the other hand, at the time you could not move around
12 Sarajevo. It was unsafe. There were both Serbian and Muslim barricades.
13 I did not go to see my family for 24 hours, Mr. Traldi, never mind walk
14 around. There were two barricades very close my apartment, one was a
15 Serbian one, one was a Muslim one. There was firing from there, and
16 other than by telephone, I was not able to contact my family. So then I
17 went to see my family [as interpreted] --
18 Q. Sir, you've now gone well beyond my question. I'm going to ask
19 you to focus on the question that I directly ask you.
20 During the course of your answer you said you did not have any --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: I think there is some mistake either in translation
23 or transcribing. The gentleman did not say that he went to see his
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, he did not. He said he did not, at least that's
1 what I heard, did not go to see his family. But the issue was not
2 whether there were barricades and what effect they had on the witness.
3 The issue and the question was about whether this witness participated in
4 organising them. That was the issue, but I think everyone understood
5 that the witness said that and certainly the transcript will --
6 MR. LUKIC: Yeah. In 65, line 7, it says: "Then I went to see
7 my family," and he didn't say that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No. We heard, and I put that on the record a second
9 ago, that we heard he did not go and see his family for such a time, and
10 that will be worked -- I mean, the transcript is not the final one yet.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And in any case, at line 3 he says:
12 "I did not go to see my family for 24 hours ..."
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it seems that it's a minor issue on the
14 whole matter and it will be corrected anyhow.
15 Let's proceed.
16 MR. TRALDI:
17 Q. Now you say -- you said in your last answer you did not have any
18 contacts with the Serbian Democratic Party. In fact, as you say in
19 paragraph 11 of your statement, your appointment in Sarajevo was approved
20 by Radovan Karadzic; right?
21 A. Yes, that's not in dispute, Mr. Traldi, but we cannot link him up
22 with this at the time. There was a tripartite authority, a coalition of
23 three parties, and a few days after this authority was set up
24 Mr. Karadzic called me. That has nothing to do with --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly be asked to slow down.
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. You're being asked by the interpreters to slow down and by me,
3 again, to focus directly on the question that I ask you, which is not
4 about the tripartite system or the history of the government. As you
5 told us on Monday, you're not a politician; right?
6 A. Precisely. I did not have any contacts with the Serbian
7 Democratic Party other than meetings with Mr. Karadzic in May 1991.
8 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'm about to move on, but before I do
9 I'll tender this document.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 03838 receives Exhibit Number P7585,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
14 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P3009. And I'm turning now to the
15 beginning of April -- end of March/beginning of April 1992 and the
16 RS MUP.
17 Q. You say in your statement that you had no information about the
18 division of the MUP except for a dispatch from Momcilo Mandic.
19 Now this is that dispatch; right?
20 A. I assume so. There's no need for me to read it. We don't need
21 to lose too much time, Mr. Traldi. I assume that that is that dispatch.
22 It's addressed to, among others, the SUP Sarajevo, personally to me. We
23 don't need to check what's in it right now. We don't want to lose time
24 with me having to read the content of the dispatch.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, leave it in Mr. Traldi's hands what he
1 considers is worth to use time on. Mr. Traldi -- listen to his questions
2 and please answer them. If he asks you to read it, you'll read it. If
3 he doesn't ask, then -- but to be sure that this is the dispatch, you
4 might -- you had a look at it, you say it is, even without having read it
5 in its totality again. That's how I understood your testimony.
6 Can you confirm it is or do you need more time to read it?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is it, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. Now, you say you spent a weekend in early April 1992 in Pale
11 municipality. You mention you went to Podgrab village and the Pale SJB.
12 Did you also go to the scout's hall while you were in Pale?
13 A. No. If you permit me, Mr. Traldi, I said this and I think I said
14 in my statement that on Friday afternoon I went to Pale with my family,
15 that I was stopped by a Muslim barricade at the exit to Sarajevo held by
16 the Green Berets and the police, and that I was also stopped again in
17 Serb territory --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the simple question was whether you also
19 went to the scout's hall. And by the first word - no - you've answered
20 that question. Whatever you did, if there's any reason to further
21 explore that, Mr. Lukic will do it.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. TRALDI:
24 Q. Had you visited the scout's hall at all in early 1992?
25 A. Scout's hall, I'm sorry, I don't really know what that is. In
1 the beginning, it was translated to me as the sports hall.
2 Q. I'm thinking of a place called Kalovita Brda in Pale.
3 A. No. I was never at that building, unless you're thinking of the
4 MUP building in Pale.
5 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 33291.
6 Now this is part of Milan Scekic's testimony in the
7 Stanisic-Zupljanin case. If we can scroll down -- we have the whole
9 Q. So he's asked when he first became aware of talk within the MUP
10 about forming a Serbian MUP. He says:
11 "The first time I heard of it was in 1992" --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: What line are we at?
13 MR. TRALDI: His answer begins at line 17, Your Honour.
14 He says in late March or early April. He says he came out into
15 the street and met two of his colleagues, he cannot recall their names.
16 They asked me if I wanted to join them on their way to Pale. I did, he
17 says, and Mico Stanisic Dragan Kijac, and chiefs of public security from
18 Sarajevo municipalities were present, as well as the representatives of
19 the ten peripheral municipalities.
20 If we could turn to page 3 at the bottom. It says, he is asked:
21 "Mr. Witness, my question is: The meeting in Pale that you
22 talked about where in Pale was the meeting held, if you remember?"
23 He answers:
24 "It was held at Kalovita Brda, formally known as the scout's
25 hall. The meeting was brief. We were given the information and parted
2 If we can turn to the top of page 4, he is asked:
3 "Do you recall who led or chaired the meeting?"
4 He says:
5 "I think it was Dragan Kijac who chaired the meeting ..."
6 Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to whether you chaired a
7 meeting at Kalovita Brda in early 1992?
8 A. Now I understand which building you're referring to. It's the
9 MUP building. It was the MUP building. I don't know what it was used
10 for earlier on. In April 1992, a ministry was established there, the
11 Ministry of the Interior was there. So it wasn't a scout's hall or a
12 sports hall.
13 As far as Mr. Scekic is concerned, well, this must have happened
14 a lot later. He went to Sarajevo at least a month and a half or two
15 after the conflict had broken out, and for that reason, he had unpleasant
16 experiences. So it's quite possible that he thought it was in May or
17 June. But for me to be the chairman of the meeting, well, at the time I
18 could only have been the chairman within my own service. I wasn't the
19 head of the service, Mr. Skipina was, as well as Mr. Mico Stanisic. But
20 I was in Kalovita Brda throughout the period of April.
21 I do apologise, but I had to provide you with some detail in
22 order to describe the relative context.
23 Q. So you contest, just to cut it short, the truthfulness of his
24 testimony that you chaired meetings about the establishment of the RS MUP
25 at Kalovita Brda at the time; right?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: We should just ... maybe the rest of this
3 paragraph should be read in all the fairness to the witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That is suggested to you, Mr. Traldi. If you follow
5 that suggestion, please do so. If you don't follow it, then Mr. Lukic
6 will have an opportunity to further deal with the matter.
7 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to finish the paragraph.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, one thing I noticed, I don't know whether there
9 comes down in the next paragraph, but you used the plural, "meetings."
10 Whereas I think from what was read it was "a meeting."
11 MR. TRALDI: I'll phrase very precisely.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
13 MR. TRALDI: Or I'll attempt to anyway, Your Honour.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Scekic's full answer is:
15 "I think it was Dragan Kijac who chaired the meeting. I believe
16 Mico Stanisic was present as well. Of course, this was 18 years ago, I
17 may be mistaken, but I would really like to give a fair statement true to
18 what I experienced and what I remember. But I believe this was the case,
19 that Dragan Kijac chaired the meeting and that Mico Stanisic was
21 Do you also contest the truthfulness of Mr. Scekic's sworn
23 A. Look, Mr. Scekic said that this what he thought. I have no
24 reason to dispute this, but -- I can't lead a meeting as minister of the
25 interior. Mico Stanisic would have had to open the meeting and maybe
1 given me the floor. But for me to lead a meeting, to chair a meeting,
2 that wasn't quite the way things were organised within the Ministry of
3 the Interior. Especially because I was the head of the sector at the
4 time, Mr. Traldi. So I was only the head of the sector at the time and
5 nothing more.
6 Q. So thus far, Mr. Vlaski, Mr. Mandic, Mr. Scekic have all
7 misremembered your activities at the time; is that right?
8 A. It is not in doubt as to whether or not they can remember this
9 correctly, but I can remember what the case was better. I don't say that
10 I wasn't at Kalovita Brda and that I spent the entire period of April
11 there. There was an office there about the third of the size of this
12 area, so it wasn't anyone else's office, it was a hall for meetings
13 because the ministry didn't have any room at the time. It was a hall, a
14 room that the 10 or 15 of us would use. We were sitting there at the
15 time --
16 Q. Sir, I'm going to stop you. I hadn't asked for a description of
17 the room. I'd put a fairly straightforward question, I think, and I'd
18 just ask you again to focus on it.
19 Now, you became aware that there were no or very few non-Serb
20 personnel in the RS MUP; right?
21 A. At the time in Pale, yes, it's quite certain that there were no
22 non-Serbs. As for other areas, I don't know. I can speak about the
23 situation up until August. In the State Security Service there were
24 mainly Serbs from the Ministry of Interior or from the State Security
25 Service that I was in charge of. On the whole, they were Serbs. There
1 were no non-Serbs.
2 As for other organisational units in the field, I do believe that
3 there were people from other ethnicities, Muslims and Croats. They
4 worked in certain organisational units. I know some of them and I know
5 some of them who remained there until the end of the war. But I can only
6 tell you what I am aware of, that is, the State Security Service. There
7 were no non-Serbs there. Because the Serbs who had left Sarajevo started
8 establishing a State Security Service in Sarajevo.
9 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 33278. And as it comes up, I
10 will ask that the witness be given 90(E) advice at this time.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kijac, Mr. Traldi has invited me to make you
12 acquainted with Rule 90(E) of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence. And
13 I'll read it to you.
14 The rule says:
15 "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to
16 incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to
17 answer the question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used
18 as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any
19 offence other than false testimony."
20 So if you fear that a truthful answer would incriminate yourself,
21 you may address me.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. TRALDI: Now these are the minutes of the expanded session of
24 the expert collegium held on 10 and 11 of November, 1993, in Pale. If we
25 could turn to page 3 in both languages, we see the beginning of the
1 meeting. And at page 4, both languages, in the second paragraph, we see
2 that it begins:
3 "The following persons were present at the session, which was
4 chaired on 10 November 1993 by Dragan Kijac, and on 11 November 1993, by
5 the acting minister, Tomo Kovac."
6 Q. Now in light of your answers about the collegium on Monday,
7 before I move on, I just want to make sure, would you have been
8 psychologically present or psychologically absent while you were chairing
9 the meeting?
10 A. I can't remember having chaired a meeting of the Ministry of the
11 Interior with these individuals. So that didn't correspond to my level
12 of job description. So I'm quite surprised by this. This is the first
13 time I have seen things being formulated in this way. I can't have
14 chaired a meeting of the Ministry of the Interior which included
15 assistants for public safety who had the same status as I did, if not an
16 even higher status.
17 Q. Looking at the bottom of the page we read:
18 "After expounding the agenda, Dragan Kijac opened the discussion
19 on the first item."
20 Now, you've been to enough meetings to know that's the chair's
21 role. It's not just a random guy at the meeting who expounds the agenda
22 and opens the discussion; right?
23 A. I really can't remember. I would say this is quite impossible.
24 I can see that it says Dragan Kijac chaired the meeting, but if you have
25 look at those who attended the meeting, well, I don't have any
1 responsibility for assistants for finance, for assistants for
2 communications, for [indiscernible], for the chief of -- the Chef de
3 Cabinet Radomir Milos. I really cannot be the chairman of such a meeting
4 involving such individuals.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you don't -- you say you were not there.
6 You did not chair that meeting. You did not chair that meeting. Okay.
7 That's --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I said. But as to
9 whether I was at the meeting, I probably was at the meeting.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear. But you don't have to explain
11 always why your answer is the right answer. I mean, to say it's
12 impossible that it was otherwise unless there's some clear physical
13 impossible. But just arguing about why your recollection must be the
14 right one is not something that is important for us at this moment.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. TRALDI:
17 Q. And in fact --
18 A. I do apologise, Your Honour. But I get carried away. Because
19 this is the first time I have seen this today --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, wait for the next question.
21 MR. TRALDI: If we can have page 8 in the English and the bottom
22 of page 7 in the B/C/S.
23 Q. Now we see in the next-to-last paragraph in the B/C/S and in the
24 middle of the page in English, that Stojan Zupljanin explained his
25 proposal for giving what's translated as work contracts to employees of
1 non-Serb ethnicity, stating that he had taken as the main criteria the
2 meeting of general and specific conditions. He mentioned, in particular,
3 that over 400 journalists and 120 TV crew who had visited Banja Luka last
4 year were interested specifically in those persons.
5 Now it's fair to say that what he is interested in is achieving
6 public relations benefits, right, by hiring non-Serbs? That's what he's
7 proposing; right?
8 A. Yes, I had this in mind a while ago when answering your question.
9 In certain centres, there were employees who were non-Serbs.
10 MR. TRALDI: Can we turn to the next page in B/C/S and it will be
11 the second paragraph. First full paragraph, rather.
12 Q. What we read there is that Dragan Kijac, Andrija Bjelosevic,
13 Krsto Savic, and Milenko Karisik were opposed to Zupljanin's proposal,
14 while Goran Macar stressed that no such people could work at the forensic
15 department while the war was ongoing.
16 Now, that's your position as you articulated it to the collegium;
17 right? You were opposed to hiring non-Serbs?
18 A. There was no hiring, Mr. Traldi. These people worked in the
19 service before the war. They just remained on and worked in the Ministry
20 of the Interior. They weren't new employees, you understand? Before
21 1992, before the war broke out, they worked in the Ministry of the
22 Interior. They remained there and some of them continued to work there
23 until the end of the war --
24 Q. Sir --
25 A. On the other hand --
1 Q. What I've asked you about is your position. Your position as you
2 articulated to the collegium on this occasion was you were opposed to
3 giving contracts to non-Serbs; right?
4 A. Mr. Traldi, it's the same thing again. These are people who
5 worked in the Ministry of the Interior before the war. These people were
6 not new people. As for my opinion, I can't express it to the head of the
7 centre, Stojan Zupljanin, because I have no authority over
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE ORIE: What about answering the question?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Were you opposed to Stojan Zupljanin's proposal
12 which was read out by Mr. Traldi a second ago? Were you opposed to that?
13 That's the simple question.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't be for or against this
15 proposal because that did not concern my field of activity, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So do I understand, then, that's what's recorded
17 here as your position as expressed during that meeting, that that is not
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think it is correct. This
20 was drafted as if I had been the chairman, so I don't think it is
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's wrongly recorded. That's your
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. TRALDI:
1 Q. Sir, you say this can't be correct because it was drafted as if
2 you had been the chairman. If Minister Kovac wasn't present, one of his
3 two under-secretaries would chair the meeting; right?
4 A. Look, you have to understand how the Ministry of the Interior was
6 Q. Sir --
7 A. I don't know who the minister --
8 Q. I'm going to stop you. I'm not asking for a long explanation of
9 the ministry's organisation. I'm asking you about if Minister Kovac
10 wasn't present at the collegium meeting who would chair it, and what I'm
11 putting to you is it would have been one of the under-secretaries; right?
12 Yes or no?
13 A. No. The state security couldn't have a meeting at which there
14 were public employees. You can see that there wasn't a single state
15 employee. How could I have --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is kindly asked to repeat his
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. Sir --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, you were invited to repeat your
21 answer. I leave it to you, Mr. Lukic, whether -- where everyone was
22 about, I think, to try to get the witness back to the question, whether
23 there's any need to do that. You have listened to it, I take it, in
25 Witness, could you please answer the questions rather than
1 explain all kind of things without answering the question. The question
2 was, and you did it very briefly, that it would not be -- if Minister
3 Kovac wasn't there, that it would not be two of the under-ministers who
4 would replace him.
5 Then the simple question is: Who would replace him if he wasn't
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't know.
8 Minister Kovac wasn't a minister. That's the first thing.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If Mr. Kovac was not there, you wouldn't know who
10 would replace him, apart from whether he was a minister or not. That's
11 an answer to the question.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
13 MR. TRALDI:
14 Q. You just said Minister Kovac wasn't a minister. Is it your
15 evidence now that you don't recall who was the acting minister of the
16 interior in November 1993?
17 A. Well, as to whether he was a -- in an acting position or not, I
18 don't know. There was someone called Ratko Hadzic and there was a sort
19 of vacuum at the time. I don't think that Mr. Kovac was the acting
20 minister, if my memory doesn't fail me, and I think it doesn't.
21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'm about to move on, but before I do,
22 I will tender the document.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 33278 receives Exhibit Number P7586,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P7586 is admitted into -- Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: I -- I do not have objection for now.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then it's --
4 MR. LUKIC: Only we would [overlapping speakers] ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- admitted into evidence.
6 MR. LUKIC: We would like to know how this document was obtained
7 by the Prosecution.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, if you could answer the question right
9 away it would be appreciated. Otherwise inform Mr. Lukic at a later
11 MR. TRALDI: It's being checked but we'll answer no later than
12 the break.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
14 MR. TRALDI:
15 Q. Now in paragraph 49 of your statement, sir, turning to a new
16 topic, you say that as of late June and early July 1995, the RDB was
17 focused mostly on the Sarajevo-Trnovo theatre of war. That means that
18 you would have been monitoring events that theatre; right?
19 A. Could you tell me which paragraph you are referring to, please.
20 Q. 49. And while you look for it, sir.
21 MR. TRALDI: I can already inform Mr. Lukic that the last
22 document was seized from the RS MUP CJB Srpsko Sarajevo in Pale in
23 June 2003.
24 Q. Now, sir, if you were monitoring events in the Sarajevo-Trnovo
25 theatre in late June and early July, if your attention was focused there,
1 you would have been monitoring events there; right?
2 A. Yes, given the information that I have, yes.
3 Q. And you'd have been monitoring forces deployed there; right?
4 A. Which forces do you have in mind? There's quite some distance
5 between Sarajevo and Trnovo. If you are referring to Trnovo or are you
6 referring to the Sarajevo theatre of war? Could you try and be more
7 precise? I'm not quite sure which forces you are referring to.
8 Q. Sure. If a new unit was deployed to Trnovo while your attention
9 was focused on it at that time, that's something that wouldn't have
10 escaped your attention; right?
11 A. That's why I've asked you about this. The Trnovo theatre of war,
12 when conflicts broke out in the Trnovo theatre of war, we had an
13 operative who went there from Sarajevo and he monitored the situation and
14 submitted reports to us about the security situation in that battlefield.
15 So we did have an operative there, on the whole.
16 Q. I'm going to start with the Sarajevo side. Now, you knew at that
17 time - early July 1995 - that in the area of Sarajevo under Muslim
18 control the citizens didn't even have the basic conditions for survival;
20 A. That is quite a broad concept. Basic conditions for survival,
21 well, that is quite a broad concept. There's no doubt that the situation
22 in Sarajevo was difficult.
23 MR. TRALDI: Can we have, just, I think, for efficiency,
24 65 ter 33181.
25 Q. This is an RDB report dated the 2nd of July, 1995, bearing your
1 name and sent personally to the deputy minister of the interior and the
2 head of the public security department. If we can turn to page 2 in both
3 languages, and it's the third paragraph in the English, we read -- and
4 it's the first full paragraph in the B/C/S:
5 "We are in possession of information that the situation in the
6 area of Sarajevo which is under Muslim control continues to worsen owing
7 to the lack of the basic conditions for survival. For these reasons,
8 citizens have started to abandon the town, passing through the tunnel at
9 their own risk."
10 Now, this was what you knew to be the truth about the situation
11 in Sarajevo at the beginning of July 1995 when your attention was focused
12 on that theatre; right?
13 A. This dispatch shows this was an intercepted conversation between
14 two individuals and one can see that they were commenting on this. The
15 comments were conveyed, were relayed, the comments made in that
16 intercepted conversation, it says, on the basis of the comments made by
17 two Muslims. So it is obvious that this conversation was intercepted and
18 this paragraph was drafted on the basis of that conversation.
19 Q. And the information that you had that you were reporting to the
20 department minister of the interior and to the top of the CJB -- sorry,
21 the top of the SJB, the public security side, was that there's a lack of
22 basic conditions for survival in the Muslim-controlled area of Sarajevo;
23 right? That's what you report up in this document? Yes or no?
24 A. That's correct. But could we please go back to the first page.
25 The 2nd of July, 1995, is the date of this dispatch. As early as
1 the 15th of June there were hundreds of documents that mentioned
2 offensives launched from Sarajevo against our positions. If the
3 situation had been so catastrophic, a large-scale offensive wouldn't have
4 been launched against the Serbian positions. The offensive had already
5 lasted for 20 days by that time. You have scores of documents about this
6 matter. We could have a look at them. I don't know. When you are
7 preparing yourself, you probably saw that in mid-June an offensive was
8 launched in Sarajevo, against Sarajevo.
9 MR. TRALDI: I tender the document, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do, you said, sir, Mr. Traldi, that it
11 bears the witness's name. Can we see where it bears his name, please?
12 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, can we have the end of the document, please?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you so much.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 33181 receives Exhibit Number P7587,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
18 I have one question. What you're saying is - at least if I
19 understood you well - that the situation was, of course, not defined by
20 what you find here. Now, not in this way does this report say: Ignore
21 this because it's not the real situation, which we heard to the contrary.
22 It says what you can infer from that situation. So I'm a bit puzzled by
23 your answer saying, Well, this was reported as reflecting relevant
24 factual information to the minister, isn't it?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Orie, at that time we did
1 not have such a clear view of Sarajevo to be able to know things. This
2 is an intercepted conversation. We include it, but we don't have the
3 option of verifying it out in the field.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask: Where does it state that this
6 is an intercept, from this document? I'm a bit lost here.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on the basis of
9 comments by two Muslims, it can clearly be concluded. So these are
10 comments. In overviews such as this, you don't see the source of the
11 information. When you receive the dispatch from Sarajevo, then you can
12 conclude what the source of information was. This is just an overview.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: The comments of the two Muslims refers to no army
14 success in Hadzici. It doesn't say anything about basic conditions of
15 survival not being present. And in any case, even though -- even if it
16 were referring to that, it doesn't show that this is an intercept. I'm
17 just asking where do we see that this is an intercept? You could have
18 heard Muslims talking to you. That's not an intercept, they're just
19 talking to you. Where do we find in this document that this is an
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Information such as this, you will
22 not get the source of the information. You will see that many things are
23 referred to here. Gojko Susak, what he thinks, then comments by two
24 Muslim citizens, and so on and so forth.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not answering my question, sir, I'm sorry.
1 You're not answering my question.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying, I'm trying to answer
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no, just show me in this document where we see
5 that this is an intercept. Don't tell me about Gojko somebody.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You cannot see that from this
7 document. No one can see it from this document.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's an answer to my question.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We need to find --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi. No, it's time for a
13 MR. TRALDI: I do have one quick follow-up, but I'll save it for
14 after the break, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's do that.
16 Witness, we'll take a break and we'd like to see you back in
17 20 minutes from now. That's 25 minutes to 2.00. You may follow the
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I see that you only need a few seconds
24 even. That's --
25 MR. TIEGER: Correct, Mr. President. Thank you. This is in
1 reference to the Defence motion filed on the 8th of October to add
2 witnesses to its 65 ter list. The Prosecution does not oppose.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
4 Then I'll deal briefly with another procedural matter.
5 Madam Registrar has prepared a list of the associated exhibits
6 which are not contested, which are not in dispute, and has assigned
7 numbers to them. That list will be filed this afternoon. And hereby the
8 Chamber admits into evidence D1300 up to and including D1320, and the
9 corresponding numbers are to be found on the list that will be filed this
10 afternoon by Madam Registrar.
11 And again, the one objected to is not included in this.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kijac, we'll continue. May I urge you again to
14 focus your answer on what was asked. If any further explanation is
15 needed, either by Mr. Traldi or later by Mr. Lukic, they'll ask for it.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. Sir, sticking with the document in front of us, before the break
19 you said the source of the information contained in this report you can
20 conclude that when you received the dispatch from Sarajevo. That
21 dispatch from Sarajevo is the dispatch that the regional national
22 security centre sent to the head office; right?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And on the basis of the various regional dispatches, you and your
25 team would draft the daily report to send to the deputy minister and the
1 head of the public security sector; right?
2 A. Yes, that was the procedure.
3 Q. And you would choose what information from the regional reports
4 to provide to the deputy minister; right?
5 A. Either myself or the chief of analysis, all would receive
6 documents in their sphere of work, the papers, and then they would mark
7 for analysis parts that were interesting. And then the analysis sector
8 would draft a report like this one which would -- which then I would
10 Q. And you and your team would not -- let me start the question
12 You and your team would provide to the deputy minister
13 information that you found important, information you found reliable;
15 A. We would provide -- well, if I may be a little bit broader,
16 Your Honours, to explain to Mr. Traldi.
17 Perhaps we would receive 100 pieces of information from the
18 field. What you can see, perhaps 20 of them could be used, 80 per cent
19 would not be interesting, but the 20 would be used to draft a document
20 like this. At that point, we would not know how reliable the information
21 was. It was war, you know. We did not have the support in order to be
22 able to monitor any area. We would accept what the operative would send
23 from the field, but we would not have the opportunity to verify it. We
24 would send it like that.
25 Perhaps -- here's an example, if the Court would permit me, I
1 could be a bit more detailed. We get information that a sabotage group
2 infiltrate a certain area. They would say information was available. We
3 would pass that on. This information would not necessarily have to be
4 true. We would be obliged to warn the military intelligence organ that
5 this could possibly happen.
6 Q. But you certainly wouldn't include it if you knew or believed it
7 to be false; right?
8 A. I did not have the option once I received the paper to verify it.
9 You understand? All I would look for is to see whether it was something
10 important or not important. I didn't have the opportunity to verify it
11 because every day something new would happen. In peacetime when he would
12 send information like this to me, I would react in an instructional way.
13 Because, in the service, we would also be providing instructions, so then
14 we would order them to do such and such a thing to verify information.
15 But at this point, from day to day, when things were happening like that,
16 you didn't have the chance to verify this information. Perhaps I can
17 take an example from those documents.
18 In one of our informations, it would say that so many Muslims
19 escaped from Pilica, let's say. Later I read a report done by the
20 international forces and they established that this was not so, but we
21 did include it in one of these information reports. We passed it on, but
22 we didn't know whether this was a verified piece of information or not.
23 It was up to us to ring the alarm at a given point in time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that's a rather long explanation of how it
25 worked. But if you had some doubts, you would express that in a report,
1 isn't it, or if you would have some doubts on whether it was reliable or
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have that kind of
4 insight, whether something was verified or not, whether it was suspicious
5 or not. I just would get the piece of paper.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I take you to page 1 of this
8 Almost at the bottom, in English at least, I don't know where it
9 is in -- yes, I think it's also the semi-last paragraph. It says:
10 "According to unverified information, a member of UNPROFOR has reported
11 that there were about," this and this and this. So isn't it true that
12 your answer just a second ago squarely contradicts what we find here in
13 the report, that if there were reasons to make clear that it was
14 unverified, and you would do that if there is doubt, isn't it, that you
15 would put that in the report. You said you couldn't do that, but I see
16 that it was done in the report.
17 Do you have an explanation for that? A short explanation,
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would depend on the dispatch.
20 This dispatch that came regarding 5.000 Mujahedin from Islamic countries,
21 it says that it was an unverified piece of information and that is how we
22 would convey it. Where this is stated, then we would also pass it on
23 like that. We would also mention it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which is not fully consistent with all your
25 previous answers where you didn't make such a -- such a condition.
1 But let's move on.
2 Mr. Traldi.
3 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to turn now to the Trnovo part of the
4 Sarajevo-Trnovo theatre. And can we have P345. And this is another of
5 General Mladic's notebooks from the war. If we could have page 209 in
6 the English, 211 in the B/C/S.
7 We see here in the English - and we're just getting the B/C/S -
8 General Mladic's notes of a meeting on 30 June 1995 with Slobodan
9 Milosevic at the VJ General Staff.
10 If we could turn to page 211 in the English, 213 in the B/C/S, we
11 see under Milosevic's initials a discussion of the 5th Corps and then a
12 mention of Krupa. And turning to the next page, at the end of
13 Milosevic's remarks, we read:
14 "Jovica should resolve logistics problems and let the RS resolve
15 this problem of holding up convoys."
16 And then we see someone with the initials JS is recorded as the
17 next speaker in General Mladic's notes.
18 Q. Now, given the level of the meeting and what you've read here,
19 you can tell that JS and Jovica, those refer to your counterpart in
20 DB Serbia, Jovica Stanisic; right?
21 MR. LUKIC: Objection. Calls for clear speculation.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's a leading question, that's clear. But
23 the witness can answer the question.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't be able to say.
25 MR. TRALDI:
1 Q. How many Jovicas with the last initial S can you think of who
2 would have been at a level to attend this meeting?
3 MR. LUKIC: Objection. Where do we see that in JS that it's
5 JUDGE ORIE: JS, I think it is -- Mr. Traldi.
6 MR. TRALDI: Sure, Your Honour. First, I'd put to the witness a
7 question, but, second, the basis for my question is that Milosevic says
8 what Jovica should do and then JS is the next speaker. I think that's
9 sufficient to put a question on cross-examination.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is denied.
11 MR. LUKIC: So the previous sentence --
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no. I given a ruling. The previous
13 sentence is sufficient basis to put the question, not to draw any
14 definitive conclusions. It's sufficient basis for the question.
15 Please proceed. A question which is leading, indeed.
16 MR. TRALDI:
17 Q. Do you need me to repeat the question, sir?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. This is a meeting with Mladic and Slobodan Milosevic at the VJ
20 General Staff. How many people with the first name Jovica and the last
21 initial S can you name who as of 30 June 1995 were at a sufficient level
22 of seniority to attend this meeting?
23 A. I cannot think along those lines.
24 Q. Try with me. This isn't a casual gathering. It's a meeting at
25 the VJ General Staff. The two people that you know are there are the
1 president of Serbia and the commander of the VRS Main Staff. How many
2 Jovicas -- let me put it to you this way.
3 If this were a piece of information that were coming before you
4 in your work as -- in national security, in your intelligence work, you
5 would act on the basis that the most likely conclusion is that's
6 Jovica Stanisic that's being referred to, wouldn't you? Yes or no?
7 A. First of all, Mr. Traldi, this is something that would not come
8 to my desk. Let's understand each other. We were not a service that was
9 monitoring such high-level people. Try to put a question to me and I
10 will try to answer it. First of all, to go into this, I can't even read
11 it. I mean, if you put a question to me, I will reply. I mean, there's
12 no dispute about that.
13 Q. Sir, I appreciate --
14 JUDGE ORIE: A question was put to you, and then you answered
15 that you couldn't think in those lines. Simple question now is: Could
16 you know, could you give us any name of a person by the initials JS who
17 would be in such a position to attend a meeting where Mr. Milosevic and
18 Mr. Mladic would be present? Can you give us any suggestion?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot be thinking along those
20 lines, Your Honours. At this point, I cannot recall initials, who was
21 the prime minister, who was the president of the republic, and all those
22 different initials.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If there would have been a person present
24 there by the first name Jovica, and if the last name would be -- would
25 start with an S, would you have any suggestion who that could have been?
1 And Mr. Traldi suggests to that you it may have been Jovica Stanisic.
2 But if you have any other idea of who that could have been, you're
3 invited to tell us.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not ruling it out.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That was not my question, whether you could rule it
6 out. My question was whether you could think of any -- witness, the
7 question was whether you could think of any other person by the first
8 name Jovica, last name starting with an S, who would be at such a level
9 that he could attend such a meeting.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this moment, no.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. TRALDI: Can we have page 213 in the English, page 215 in the
15 Q. Now we see JS is recorded beginning at the bottom of the page by
16 General Mladic to say:
17 "They should not be engaged (we gave 80 from you Erdut, we gave
18 80 from Djeletovci ..."
19 Now, you know that DB Serbia had a unit known as the Skorpions
20 based at Djeletovci; right?
21 A. I know that there was a unit there called the Skorpions, but I
22 don't know who was in charge of that unit.
23 Q. Let's see if we can refresh your recollection.
24 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 06767.
25 Q. Now this is a document coming from General Mladic dated the
1 1st of July, 1995, the next day, re the telegram of the MUP of Serbia's
2 antiterrorist unit from the 30th of June, 1995. He describes how he
3 should be informed if anyone is seriously wounded in the Trnovo sector.
4 And then turning to the next page in the English, says:
5 "The MUP of the RS in Pale shall notify representatives of the
6 MUP of Serbia and Colonel Golic of our decision."
7 Now, the MUP of Serbia had to be informed about decisions about
8 how information would come about events in the Trnovo sector because
9 there were MUP Serbia forces present there; right?
10 A. First of all, I would comment it like this. I'm seeing this
11 paper for the first time. It's the 1st of July, 1995, and you can see
12 that it's addressed to the RS Pale MUP. At that point in time I was not
13 representing the MUP of Pale. So combat units and what was being used
14 was something that was addressed at the minister of the interior, not to
15 the chief of the department. We don't have units in the field, don't
16 participate in the front. All we do is report what we observe in the
17 field. And up here at the top you can see that this is addressed to the
18 RS Pale MUP, not to the National Security Service. You can look at the
19 information of the Main Staff. That's where it says that it's been
20 sent to me, that it's addressed personally to Dragan Kijac.
21 Q. Sir, we may have occasion to look at some of those documents, but
22 at the moment you've answered at least one question but not the one that
23 I asked you. You know based on having an operative in the Trnovo
24 theatre, where you said your attention was focused at the beginning of
25 July 1995, you know there were MUP Serbia forces present there, just
1 like -- or consistent with what General Mladic is writing in this
2 document; right?
3 A. I would like to look at the dispatch saying that these forces
4 were there. Could you please show that to me? I don't want to speculate
5 right now.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No. You were asked whether you know it. If you
7 know it, tell us; if you don't know it, don't tell us. Don't invite
8 Mr. Traldi to present to you the evidence of what he asks you.
9 Do you -- simple question therefore: Were you aware that there
10 were MUP Serbia forces present there? And we're talking about Trnovo.
11 You were not --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, sir, we had nothing to do
13 with the combat forces.
14 JUDGE ORIE: My question was not whether you something to do with
15 it, but whether you knew it. And your answer is simply no.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
17 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 09562.
18 Q. As it comes up, there were also RS MUP units on the Trnovo front;
20 A. What do you take RS to mean?
21 Q. Republika Srpska, sir.
22 A. Well, in Trnovo, there was a police staff. This is the first
23 time I have seen this piece of paper, and you can see that Savo
24 Cvjetinovic, whom I know, was the head of that staff.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, stop -- stop you again. Were there also
1 RS MUP units on the Trnovo front? If you know, tell us; if you don't
2 know, tell us as well.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of this paper I can
4 see that they were present there.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking to interpret a document. That
6 document is shown to you, perhaps, but the question is: Were they there?
7 If you know tell us; if you don't know, tell us as well.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Mr. Orie, but you
9 must allow me to --
10 JUDGE ORIE: No --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- formulate my answer in a couple
12 of sentences.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No. You are only allowed to answer the questions
14 and not tell us what you would say on a question that was not put to you.
15 Mr. Traldi.
16 Yes, by the way, we'd like to have an answer still, because I've
17 asked you now three times. Where there also RS MUP units at the Trnovo
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the minister of the
20 interior deploys the units. I don't know where the units were.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was his sole authority to decide
23 where the units would be deployed.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Again -- I'm not talking about authority. I can
25 imagine of three answers: Yes, they were there; no, they were not there;
1 or I don't know. Which of the three is it? Irrespective of who sent
2 them there, whatever happened, whose authority it was, is it a yes; is it
3 a no; or is it I don't know?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that they were there. I'm
5 not trying to evade this, Mr. Orie.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And what's the basis for your assumption?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's because special police
8 brigade units and special police units mainly participated in helping the
9 army wherever there was an offensive. Trnovo was a location where every
10 two or three month there was large-scale combat. I assume, I believe
11 this is the case, that Ministry of Interior units co-operated with the
12 Republika Srpska army because they were present in all battlefields. But
13 as to whether it was the 2nd or 3rd Company or special police brigade, I
14 really could not say.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer is: Yes, but I do not know what
16 specific units. I see you nodding yes. That's hereby on the record.
17 Why don't you tell us this immediately? Why don't you tell us: What
18 units exactly there were, I do not know, but I know that such units were
20 Mr. Traldi will now put his next question and you're invited to
21 answer the question.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Orie, I said that this was my
23 assumption. I nodded in the sense that wanted to indicate that it was my
24 assumption, as I have already said.
25 MR. TRALDI:
1 Q. Now in the tenth line down on the B/C/S, sir, we read that part
2 of the defence line is held by the Skorpions and then it says "MUP
3 Serbia." You mentioned a few moments ago you knew was a unit in
4 Djeletovci called the Skorpions. You -- does this refresh your
5 recollection as to whether that was a MUP Serbia unit?
6 A. No, Mr. Traldi. No. I know of the existence of the Skorpions.
7 I read it about it in print. For about 15 years there was Skorpions in
8 existence, but as to being able to confirm that they were in the Trnovo
9 area, I can't confirm this.
10 Q. Sir, I'm going to interrupt you --
11 A. It's probably 90 per cent certain. You probably have a paper to
12 that effect.
13 Q. I'm going to interrupt you and ask you again to try to answer my
14 question. Does this, yes or no, refresh your recollection as to whether
15 the Skorpions were under the control of MUP Serbia as Mr. Cvjetinovic
16 writes here?
17 A. I can't answer such a question. I can't answer such a question.
18 How am I to know whether they were there or not? If you had asked me
19 with my own men, I would have said they were under my authority.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The simple answer is: It doesn't refresh my
21 recollection. That's apparently the gist of what you say.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. TRALDI:
24 Q. So do I understand correctly that the National Security Sector of
25 the Republika Srpska, when its attention was focused on a particular
1 theatre, it could miss the entry of affiliated forces? It wouldn't be
2 aware of what organisations those forces were affiliated with even if it
3 exchanged information on a daily basis with that other organisation?
4 That's the level of intelligence work you're telling me the National
5 Security Sector of the Republika Srpska did?
6 A. That's quite right. I had no information as to whether they were
7 there or not. Our people didn't focus on the situation of the army and
8 the police. They focused on the situation as regards the lines. That's
9 one matter. And the time we are speaking about is July. There was
10 already an offensive in Glamoc, Visoko, Krajina, and so on and so forth.
11 Q. I'm going to --
12 A. Three days after the appearance of this paper --
13 Q. I think you've answered my question.
14 MR. TRALDI: I tender the last two documents.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 09562 receives Exhibit Number P7588,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 06767 receives Exhibit Number P7589,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
23 MR. TRALDI:
24 Q. Sir, sticking with events in July 1995, do I correctly understand
25 from your Karadzic testimony that your evidence is you didn't know about
1 the massacres in Srebrenica until the year 2000?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P7025.
4 Q. This is an article by Robert Block published in the London
5 Independent on the 17th of July, 1995, titled: "Bodies pile up in horror
6 of Srebrenica." He starts by referring to a videocamera panning across
7 the ground in front of a building, then refers to what initially appear
8 to be bundles of abandoned belongings. But then in third paragraph the
9 reporter says there are many dead Muslim soldiers. He says this is was a
10 report by the independent Serb television channel, Studio B, and that the
11 scene looked like a place of summary execution.
12 Did you miss this information when it was published about
13 2.000 kilometres away on the 17th of July, 1995?
14 A. Well, first of all, I have to say that in my statement I said
15 that from the 14th to the 18th I was at my deputy's wedding. I wasn't in
16 the area of Republika Srpska.
17 Q. Sir, I'm not at the moment inviting you to repeat your statement.
18 Did you miss the information on the 17th of July? Yes or no?
19 A. I didn't have any such information. With your leave, Mr. Traldi,
20 may I say something else, one more sentence? With your leave, I would
21 like to say the following. Studio B as in the interrogation with -- or
22 examination with [indiscernible], I didn't which film was concerned. I
23 heard about the Studio B making this recording public. It was
24 confiscated later on. But Studio B is a media company that can only
25 broadcast in the area of the Belgrade municipality, so the broadcast
1 can't be received elsewhere in Serbia. I was in Montenegro at the
2 wedding, so I couldn't have been informed about such things at the time.
3 Q. And I understand you claim you were in Montenegro. Do you also
4 claim that when you got back nobody was talking about a video published
5 just a few dozen kilometres away, broadcast just a few dozen kilometres
6 away, showing huge numbers of dead Muslims?
7 MR. LUKIC: Few dozen kilometres away. Belgrade is not a
8 few dozen kilometres away. If it's local station it's crucial --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic --
10 MR. TRALDI: I'll defer to Mr. Lukic on the distance, I think.
11 Perhaps for efficiency, I'll simply move to the next document. Can we
12 have 65 ter 33169.
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: It's just a blank white page apparently which is
15 under this number.
16 MR. TRALDI: I think we've just released it, Your Honour, and I
17 apologise for the delay.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Give it another try, Madam Registrar, since
19 it's released now.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: What apparently -- no, we now have -- at least I see
22 on other screens around me, not all the screens are giving the same
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It appeared in e-court instead of the transcript.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's on some our of screens. Life is not always
2 fair to everyone.
3 MR. TRALDI: I can summarise the essential part for efficiency,
4 Your Honours.
5 Looking at the ninth paragraph in the middle of the first column,
6 we read that a group of Bosnian Serb special police forces under the
7 command of Ljubisa Borovcanin had been responsible for some of the
8 executions. We read about a video and we see that "the Bosnian Serbs in
9 Pale have tried to have it confiscated."
10 Q. Is it your evidence that on 22nd of July, when the Studio B video
11 had been shown on Belgrade TV, when it had made it to coverage in
12 North American newspapers who were reporting on executions allegedly
13 committed by forces including RS MUP forces, and when the Bosnian Serbs
14 in Pale were trying to have the video confiscated, you still somehow
15 managed to avoid learning about the executions? Yes or no?
16 A. The Bosnian Serbs from Pale, I don't know who they are. That's
17 the first thing. It certainly wasn't me or my service. We didn't have
18 such information on the 22nd. And on the 25th, I was already in the
19 Krajina area.
20 Q. So your answer is, yes, you somehow missed the information again
21 on the 22nd; right?
22 A. I didn't receive such information. If I had received such
23 information, I probably wouldn't have missed it.
24 Q. Now, you did know in 1996 that witnesses -- early 1996 that
25 witnesses before this Tribunal had already at that time described
1 executions of large numbers of Muslim men and boys; right?
2 A. No.
3 MR. TRALDI: I see the time. I wonder, just to complete this
4 line, if I might have two minutes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the interpreter's booth, whether --
6 yes, there's a thumbs-up for your suggestion, Mr. Traldi.
7 MR. TRALDI: Can we have P3355.
8 Q. Now, you recognise your signature here on the first page, right,
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, sorry, Mr. Traldi, the P number as
11 transcribed, we haven't reached 3300 yet. Can you repeat the number,
13 MR. TRALDI: 3355, Your Honour, thank you.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
15 MR. TRALDI:
16 Q. And you recognise your name and signature here on the first page;
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to page 2, the third paragraph from
20 the bottom in the English.
21 Q. We see references to two witnesses in The Hague who had made
22 statements that they were present at the time the VRS shot civilians in
24 So by 1996, you did know, didn't you, that witnesses before this
25 Tribunal were already at that time describing the executions; right?
1 A. Could you enlarge the paragraph, zoom in on the paragraph,
3 Mr. Traldi, this is a text from the IFOR source. Is that what we
4 are referring to. An IFOR base in Dubrave near Tuzla, is that the part
5 you are referring to?
6 JUDGE ORIE: It's the paragraph after that, I take it,
7 Mr. Traldi.
8 MR. TRALDI: [Microphone not activated] It is. Thank you,
9 Your Honour.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you be so kind as to zoom in,
11 please. Yes.
12 MR. TRALDI:
13 Q. So you agree now that did you know this in 1996; right?
14 A. This is information from the State Security Department that I
15 received, and I just conveyed it to the Ministry of Justice, which at the
16 time had started having contact with The Hague representatives. But this
17 isn't the only paragraph that is in question. There is a paragraph that
18 precedes it. I would like you to read it out as well. It's not just a
19 matter of an investigation. This is something that we received from
20 other sources cooperating with us.
21 Q. Sir, I didn't put to you that it was an investigation, certainly.
22 What I put to you was you knew witnesses were saying it, you denied it.
23 I understand you've now corrected that. And that completes my questions
24 on the document. With one exception, actually.
25 MR. TRALDI: Can we just see the end.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not denying this. All I am
2 saying is that this was alleged. I provided information that such things
3 were being done, but I didn't have any concrete information. Information
4 has to be verified. There were rumours. There were rumours, I don't
5 deny that. But this information arrived on my desk from associates or
6 collaborators among the Muslims. It says what it says, and I don't cast
7 doubt on that.
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. Now, the last thing you write -- or the last paragraph you write
11 "We are sending you this information believing that it could be
12 used for the defence."
13 And that was your priority on hearing that there were allegations
14 that the VRS and MUP forces had massacred thousands of defenceless
15 people. Your priority was to get information to the Ministry of Justice
16 so a defence could be organised; right?
17 A. Well, look, at the time, people spoke about Srebrenica. There
18 were rumours. They started performing exhumations. We sent this to the
19 Ministry of Justice that then established initial contact with
20 Ms. Louise Arbour. Naturally, we wanted to clarify matters because in an
21 earlier part of the document it says that one of the commanders killed
22 30 men, 30 people, and eyewitnesses made statements to such an effect. I
23 wasn't aware of that, and I cannot make such a claim now. An operative
24 drafted this, and we relayed the information. Let's have a look at the
25 first paragraph, please.
1 Q. Sir, if Mr. Lukic wants to show that you on re-direct, he is
2 welcome to. We'll explore your attempts to clarify matters before the
3 Tribunal more tomorrow.
4 MR. TRALDI: For now, I appreciate everyone's indulgence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Kijac, we'll adjourn for the day. We'd
6 like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30. And I again instruct you
7 that you should not speak or communicate with whomever about your
8 testimony, whether already given or whether still to be given. You may
9 now follow the usher.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow,
12 Thursday, the 22nd of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
13 courtroom, I.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.24 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of
16 October, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.