Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 40265

 1                           Monday, 26 October 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that there was one preliminary matter to

12     be raised by the Prosecution.  How much time would that take?

13             MS. HASAN:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Just a minute.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Just a minute.

15             MS. HASAN:  Less.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness perhaps already be prepared

17     to enter the courtroom.

18             MS. HASAN:  Yes, Your Honours.  This is in relation to Defence

19     Exhibit D1061, that was admitted last Thursday and we were given an

20     opportunity until today to revisit the admission of that document, and

21     this is just to inform you that we have no objection to its admission.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And it was already admitted, so --

23             MS. HASAN:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we don't have to take any further action.

25             Thank you, Ms. Hasan.

Page 40266

 1             Mr. Stojanovic, viva voce, one hour and a half, is that --

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Gajic --

 5             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I presume.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

 9     make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you.

10     May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  LJUBODRAG GAJIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Gajic.

16             Mr. Gajic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You'll

17     find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for

18     Mr. Mladic.

19             Could you move slightly away from the microphone, not too much,

20     but just a bit.  Yes.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, could you please slowly state your

25     name and surname.

Page 40267

 1        A.   I am Ljubodrag Gajic.

 2        Q.   Mr. Gajic, could you please tell the Court what you are in terms

 3     of your education?

 4        A.   I'm a banking clerk.

 5        Q.   Do you have any kind of military training and education?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Did you serve in the military?  Did you do your military service?

 8        A.   Yes, in the Republic of Serbia, actually the then Federal

 9     Republic of Yugoslavia.

10        Q.   What year?

11        A.   1993, 1994.

12        Q.   Mr. Gajic, where were you born?

13        A.   In Zavidovici, the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you to make a little pause

15     between question and answer so that the interpreters are better able to

16     interpret your words.

17             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Where did you live until 1995?

21        A.   In Valjevo, the Republic of Serbia.

22        Q.   Where do you live now?

23        A.   Likewise, Valjevo, the Republic of Serbia.

24        Q.   In 1995, were you in Bosnia-Herzegovina at any point in time?

25        A.   No, until June 1995.

Page 40268

 1        Q.   What happened in June 1995?  How come you were in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina then?

 3        A.   During the night between the 20th and the 21st of June, the

 4     police in Valjevo came to my house and they said that they needed to

 5     check some documentation related to me.  They brought me in for some kind

 6     of interview, investigation interview.

 7        Q.   What happened after that?

 8        A.   After that, during that night, during that morning, together with

 9     other men who had been brought in, I was taken by bus first to the

10     building of the Ministry of the Interior in Zvornik and Dusko Jevic came

11     there.  Of course then I didn't know him.  And from the people who were

12     there -- from among the people who were there, he chose people for police

13     formations, people who he found suitable.  At that moment I was a citizen

14     of the Republic of Serbia and a person who had regularly done his

15     military service in Serbia, so there were no legal grounds for me to be

16     there where I was then.

17        Q.   Please tell us, when you say all of that happened at the police

18     in Zvornik, what state is Zvornik in?

19        A.   In Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20        Q.   After Mr. Jevic carried out this selection that included you,

21     where were you sent from Zvornik?

22        A.   We were sent to Mount Jahorina.  That mountain is also in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  At that time - how do I put this? - the centre, the

24     training centre for police formations of Republika Srpska was there then.

25        Q.   Throughout this time your group, and you personally, did you have

Page 40269

 1     any contact with the Army of Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   No.  No contact.  We had no contact with the army.

 3        Q.   Could you briefly tell the Court what you did at this training

 4     centre in Jahorina and how things evolved while you were there?

 5        A.   Practically from the 21st of June until the 10th of July, in the

 6     centre we carried out preparations for physical and tactical training.

 7     So we were trained in different ways, to fire from different firearms.

 8     All in all, we were trained physically and tactically, and this was

 9     carried out -- this training was carried out by instructors from the MUP

10     of Republika Srpska.

11        Q.   Did you object?  Did you ask to have your status resolved because

12     you were not a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Republika Srpska?

13        A.   Yes, I protested several times because I was kept there by force.

14     And people who were up there said that I was a deserter.  Although

15     realistically that had nothing to do with me.  Basically all people who

16     were up there were proclaimed to be deserters, and I protested on account

17     of my status several times.

18        Q.   Were you given a specific task at one point in time, and did you

19     leave the training centre at Jahorina?

20        A.   Yes.  On the 11th of July, 1995, we were given a specific task.

21     The unit was lined up in front of the hotel where we were and we were

22     given the specific task to go to eastern Bosnia.  At that moment we did

23     not know where it was that we were going, but that unit that was there,

24     that was undergoing this training, set out towards eastern Bosnia.

25        Q.   Can you tell the Court, to the best of your recollection, what

Page 40270

 1     this task was, what this assignment you were given then was?  Why you

 2     were going to eastern Bosnia.

 3        A.   Mr. Saric, commander of the special police brigade, he lined up

 4     the unit that morning and he said that the unit that was undergoing

 5     training until then was going out for the first time into official

 6     combat.  He did not say where we were going, but he said that we were

 7     going into combat and that we were trained for that purpose during all of

 8     those days while we were there and that the unit was setting out, going

 9     into proper combat, because before that, the unit had not taken part in

10     any kind of combat.

11        Q.   Please don't mind if I pause for a moment.  I'm just waiting for

12     the interpretation.

13        A.   Okay, fine.

14        Q.   Please just do slow down a bit.  To the best of your

15     recollection, how many people set out from the Jahorina training centre?

16        A.   To the best of my recollection, I think it was between 150 and

17     200 men.

18        Q.   How did you set out?  What means of transportation were used?

19        A.   Buses.

20        Q.   And where did you arrive on that day and where did you stay?

21        A.   On that day, the 11th of July, we arrived in the village of

22     Bjelovac, that is close to Bratunac in eastern Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And

23     we stayed in some school that is right by the Drina river.

24        Q.   Were you given a specific new task at any point in time?

25        A.   Early in the morning on the 12th of July, they woke us up and we

Page 40271

 1     boarded these buses and went out on this new specific task.

 2        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether this task was communicated

 3     to you in writing, orally, or whether you were given any kind of specific

 4     duty in relation to this task?

 5        A.   All tasks were communicated to us orally.  And at that moment

 6     when we set out, none of us knew where it was that we were going.  We

 7     passed the town of Bratunac.  And since that was the first time ever that

 8     I was there -- actually, I was there only once.  We set out towards the

 9     town of Srebrenica.  Not far away from Potocari where the separation line

10     was, between the Muslim -- or rather, Bosniak formation and the Serb

11     forces, that's where it was.

12        Q.   On that day as you were carrying out this task, was there any

13     fighting with the forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14        A.   We arrived in the early morning of the 12th of July.  I think it

15     was about 6.00 or 6.30 in the morning.  And the unit was close to this

16     yellow bridge, and that is where the unit got off the buses.  And then

17     again we were given this order orally to wait there.  And after a while

18     we went further ahead - how do I put this? - to break through these lines

19     where the Dutch soldiers were.  They were the ones who kept this

20     separation line.

21        Q.   You mentioned Dutch soldiers.  I want to ask you something in

22     that regard.  Do you remember whether there was any kind of clash or

23     combat with members of the Dutch Battalion that morning?

24        A.   No.  No, the Dutch soldiers did not put up any kind of armed

25     resistance, so there was no fighting with the members of the Dutch

Page 40272

 1     Battalion.

 2        Q.   Did you have any kind of orders in relation to any kind of

 3     possible fighting with members of the Dutch Battalion, and were you

 4     personally told how members of the Dutch Battalion were supposed to be

 5     treated?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, we were told that the Dutch soldiers

 7     would voluntarily surrender.  That's what we were told, there would be no

 8     problems, and that we should treat Dutch soldiers -- I don't know what

 9     the legal term is for this.  Not to treat them as soldiers in that sense

10     but they should be treated as someone who is not going to put up any kind

11     of resistance towards us.

12        Q.   That morning, did you actually encounter members of the Dutch

13     Battalion?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber where this happened and what

16     this contact looked like -- or rather, this encounter with the members of

17     the Dutch Battalion?

18        A.   On the separation line itself, there was this observation post of

19     the Dutch Battalion.  And first a tank set out and we were walking next

20     to that tank -- well, maybe it wasn't exactly this way, but as far as I

21     can remember, there were some barricades there and the tank went through

22     these barricades and we were walking on the left and right next to the

23     tank.  The tank went through this barricade and then it started entering

24     the territory that was then under the control of the Army of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 40273

 1        Q.   What did this contact look like, the one that you spoke of just

 2     now?  With the members of the Dutch Battalion, that is.

 3        A.   At the moment when we entered, there was no conflict situation.

 4     There was no combat.  Nothing like that.  And we were told that the army

 5     and police that were there should move left and right.  They should take

 6     up that area.

 7        Q.   Did you personally have any kind of contact with the members of

 8     the Dutch Battalion?

 9        A.   At that moment I think that Mr. Jevic told me to move right and

10     walk up the observation post.  So I went up and I encountered two

11     soldiers of the Dutch Battalion there, so I was just told to control that

12     particular point.  It was then that I had this informal conversation with

13     members of the Dutch Battalion.

14        Q.   What kind of uniform did you wear at the time?  Did you have any

15     insignia?

16        A.   Our unit had no insignia.  We had very specific green combat

17     fatigues.  Never before or after did I see such uniforms.

18        Q.   Were there any conflicts or was the situation unpleasant when you

19     encountered the members of DutchBat at the observation post?

20        A.   No, quite the contrary.  We engaged in an informal conversation

21     since I spoke English.  We simply started chatting about topics unrelated

22     to war.  They also had some magazines there, music magazines.  Since I

23     was interested in music, we started discussing different music topics,

24     rock bands, et cetera.  So a purely informal conversation that had

25     nothing to do with the situation itself.

Page 40274

 1        Q.   What followed?

 2        A.   After that there was a need to establish linguistic

 3     communication, given the fact that no one else in the unit could speak

 4     English, and the Serbian forces had already entered the area.  That is

 5     why communication had to be established with members of DutchBat.

 6             Mr. Jevic, who commanded the unit, asked around trying to find

 7     someone who could speak English.  One of the soldiers overheard my

 8     conversation up at the observation tower with the DutchBat soldiers.  He

 9     approached me then and asked me if I could speak English.  I said that I

10     had some basic knowledge of English from primary and secondary school and

11     that I can communicate in English although not necessarily very well.  He

12     summoned me and he said:  Do join us, we need you.

13        Q.   You said that one of the soldiers told this to Dusko Jevic.  Did

14     you have in mind the members of the RS -- VRS or of the police?

15        A.   I think they were members of the police as far as I remember.

16        Q.   Do you remember what you interpreted for Commander Jevic?

17        A.   As far as I remember, Dusko Jevic wanted to know -- well, there

18     was a wire or a fence separating the people who were inside the factory

19     or a factory where members of the DutchBat were from the rest.  He first

20     asked me to inquire whether there were any civilians inside the factory.

21        Q.   And after that?

22        A.   I don't know how much time passed.  But in any case,

23     Mr. Borovcanin, who was deputy commander of the special police, and

24     Jevic, who was in command of our unit, wanted to enter the factory

25     compound to see for themselves what the situation was like and to see

Page 40275

 1     whether the people there were civilians or whether there were any

 2     military units inside.

 3        Q.   You mentioned that conversation.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And on that count, Your Honours,

 5     could we have P01147.  For identification, it is footage V000-9266.

 6     Could we have a look at some part of the footage from 03:02 to 04:10.

 7             Your Honours, there is a transcript which is already in evidence

 8     in B/C/S.  Just so that we can follow, for the transcript it is on

 9     page 39, line 12, to page 40, line 22.  In the English version of the

10     entire footage, it is the English page 44 from line 12, to page 45,

11     line 15.  If possible, I would like to view the footage 03:02.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, have you provided the --

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             "The highest?  I think at the -- I think at OP Papa" --

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think so

16     because we have the captions, the subtitles.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             "Who is the main man?  Who is the highest chief in this?  The

19     main chief?

20             "Yes?

21             "He is talking with your general there.  Our main chief.

22             "Is there any civilian inside?  Is there any civilian, women,

23     children?

24             "Women and children, yes?

25             "Yes.

Page 40276

 1             "Yes.

 2             "How many?

 3             "I think about 4.000.

 4             "4.000.

 5             "I think about 4.000.

 6             "Is there any Muslim soldiers in the inside?

 7             "No.  I can guarantee that there is no Muslim soldiers" --

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we please stop

 9     the footage ten seconds prior to this still and keep it there.

10        Q.   Mr. Gajic --

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A little bit more so as to be

12     able to see the participants in the conversation.

13        Q.   The footage you just saw, is it the event you just discussed?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   We see two participants in a conversation on the other side of

16     the fence.  Do you understand who they are, and who are the two people

17     seeking information from the Dutch soldiers?

18        A.   You mean on this Serb side?

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   One of them is Commander Dusko Jevic, the other person is myself.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Just one moment.  Was there any mention in that

22     conversation that you can remember that some requests were made by the

23     Serb side for the members of DutchBat to be disarmed?

24        A.   Not that I know.

25        Q.   Were there any requests at that moment to have the people -- the

Page 40277

 1     population in the DutchBat base to leave the base itself since they did

 2     not belong to DutchBat?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now go back to the part you mentioned.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, before we do so could it be checked,

 6     and I'm looking at page 12, line 6, it reads:

 7             "No, I think assure that there is no Muslim soldiers."

 8             Could that be verified later because it doesn't make much sense.

 9     It could be that it was said "I can assure," but I was quite certain

10     about that.

11             Meanwhile, we can proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.

13             So let us continue.

14        Q.   Did you at some point enter the facility, i.e., the UNPROFOR base

15     or Dutch base?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you tell us who entered the facility?

18        A.   Mr. Borovcanin did; Mr. Jevic did; Goran Markovic, who was my

19     platoon commander; and myself.  The four of us.

20        Q.   What did you see in the facility?

21        A.   We saw that there were Muslim civilians there, Bosniaks.

22        Q.   In your view there was some mention of a figure, i.e., 400.  Do

23     you think it was correct once you entered?

24        A.   I think it was correct.  There were several hundred people,

25     although I don't know how many exactly.  I couldn't estimate but I would

Page 40278

 1     say between 350 and 500 people, so the figure of 400 is quite realistic.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, may I briefly interrupt.

 3             Witness, when we saw the footage and heard the interpretation, at

 4     least I heard the figure of 4.000.  Is that part of the communication you

 5     were participating in?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, there were

 7     several hundreds.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   But the question was:  In the course of your conversation between

10     Dusko Jevic and yourself and the members of DutchBat, was there a mention

11     made of 4.000 people?

12        A.   I'm not sure.  It could be.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  We can verify that later with respect

14     to the video.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your intervention.

16        Q.   The next thing I wanted to ask you is this.  In this second

17     contact with the members of DutchBat and the group of people you just

18     described, did you hear of any requests made to have the members of

19     DutchBat disarmed or that they should be limited in terms of freedom of

20     movement?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   What followed during that day, if you can tell us briefly?  What

23     could you see and observe in Potocari?

24        A.   We left the factory, the four people I mentioned.  I don't know

25     how much time passed.  It may have been around 10.30 or 11.00 in the

Page 40279

 1     morning when General Mladic arrived.  It wasn't at this position where

 2     the footage was taken, it was a bit further away, and he found Mr. Jevic

 3     and myself there when he arrived with his entourage.  He greeted us.  He

 4     asked Mr. Jevic what unit he was from and Mr. Jevic said that he was from

 5     the police forces.  Mr. Mladic then commented, saying:  How come it is

 6     always you guys from the police that can be found wherever something is

 7     taking place?

 8             Mr. Jevic held two Motorola radio hand-held devices, one in each

 9     hand, for communication, and Mr. Mladic asked him why he needed two

10     Motorolas.  Mr. Jevic seemed confused and fell silent.  Then

11     General Mladic told him:  I hope you were not going to speak to yourself.

12        Q.   Now that you have a clear idea of the area, where was this

13     conversation taking place as opposed to, for example, the facility, the

14     base?

15        A.   It was some 100 metres away from this location from where the

16     footage was taken, or perhaps 150 metres.  Let's say between 100 and

17     200 metres from that location, a bit higher up.

18        Q.   On that occasion, did General Mladic issue any orders to

19     Dusko Jevic that you could overhear?

20        A.   No.  Later on we were joined by Borovcanin, who was deputy

21     commander of the police -- special -- police special brigade.  From that

22     location where we met him, we returned to the approximate area of the

23     footage.  As far as I remember, there was a very large oak tree there

24     where we took shelter in the shade.  Dusko Jevic was there and Borovcanin

25     and I think Goran Markovic, who was my commander at the time, as well as

Page 40280

 1     some other officers who may have been members of the Bratunac or Zvornik

 2     Brigade.  General Mladic talked to them briefly because they were

 3     representatives of the command structures in place at the time.

 4             Should I continue?

 5        Q.   Let me interrupt you for a moment to put a question, because this

 6     is how we do things here in this system of questioning.

 7             In what direction did the conversation develop further between

 8     General Mladic and the people you mentioned?

 9        A.   General Mladic said that he had issued an order to the civilian

10     authorities of Bratunac town to provide a convoy of vehicles to transport

11     all the population which at the time was in the base and those who later

12     on came to an open area nearby, in order to have them evacuated from the

13     area.

14        Q.   Did General Mladic discuss at all any tasks that UNPROFOR members

15     were to have in that process?

16        A.   I don't remember that.

17        Q.   To the best of your recollection, how long did General Mladic

18     stay there?

19        A.   Starting from that conversation with the officers at that

20     location, General Mladic then left to join the group of people that had

21     assembled there.  It is there that he gave that speech recorded by all

22     Serbian media which went global, where he said that the people would be

23     evacuated and transported to an area controlled by the ABiH side.  To the

24     best of my recollection, I think he spent an hour or an hour and a half

25     there.

Page 40281

 1        Q.   The location where General Mladic talked to the people mentioned,

 2     how far is it from the location where he addressed the civilians -- the

 3     civilian population assembled there?  What is the distance between the

 4     two?

 5        A.   Several hundred metres.

 6        Q.   Were you close to General Mladic when he addressed the people in

 7     Potocari?

 8        A.   Yes, I was behind him as far as I remember.  Dusko Jevic was

 9     there and I stood next to him.

10        Q.   Could you personally hear General Mladic address them?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   How did the population take his words, and what kind of

13     connection was established between him and the people?

14        A.   The people approved of his words.

15        Q.   Did the people want to leave?  In your opinion and in terms of

16     what you can see, because that is what you are testifying to, did those

17     people want to leave?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a

20     good moment.  I would again like to go back to P01147, which is the same

21     footage but I'm repeating it for the transcript.  It is V000-9266.  And I

22     would like us to see a part from 23:09 to 25:25.

23             I'd like to point out again that in the B/C/S version it is the

24     51st page of the transcript, lines 6 through 30.  In English in e-court,

25     it is page 55, lines 4 through 28.  Let us look at that piece of the

Page 40282

 1     footage starting at 23:09 and ending at 25:25.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             "Roger.  I will inform my commander.

 4             "He says that all of the people will get on buses, all these

 5     things they are doing by" -- [indiscernible].

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go back to

 7     23:4023:40.

 8        Q.   This is what I wanted to ask you now, Mr. Gajic.  First of all,

 9     is this the footage that you mentioned a moment ago when you were

10     answering my previous question?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   We see someone here who is interpreting General Mladic's words.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps if we could just go back

14     a bit, 3 or 4 seconds.  If we could rewind, please.  Focus now.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   So to the left of General Mladic there is someone who seems to be

18     interpreting.  That's what it seems like to me.  Were you the person

19     interpreting for General Mladic or was there someone next to

20     General Mladic who was interpreting for him?

21        A.   General Mladic had an official interpreter.  It's this young man

22     there.  I did not interpret at all for General Mladic, as far as I can

23     remember.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, before we continue, Madam Registrar

Page 40283

 1     has drawn my attention to the fact that P1147 is not, as we find it in

 2     the transcript, V000-9266, but rather V000-9265.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Probably the

 5     Registrar is right on that.

 6        Q.   Mr. Gajic, during this address General Mladic says that:  We have

 7     provided food, water, and medicine.  And during this first day we are

 8     going to evacuate women, children, the elderly, and all others who wish

 9     to leave the area voluntarily.  No force.

10             During the course of that day, did you see whether food and water

11     were brought in for this population in Potocari?

12        A.   As far as I can remember, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan.

14             MS. HASAN:  Apologies for the interruption.  Just so that we

15     don't stray too far from -- from the reference, the video that was played

16     is from, as my friend cited, V000-9266.  The trial video is a compilation

17     of four different CDs or four different videos.  Chapter 1, let's say, is

18     V000-9265, but this is the second -- this is the second video which is

19     9266.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hasan.  We'll sort that out.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the portion about the food, water,

23     and medication -- I'm trying to find it again.  Yes, could we look at

24     that.  You said.

25             "... during his address General Mladic says that:  We have

Page 40284

 1     provided food, water, and medicine."

 2             Could we have a look at that again?  My recollection --

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 4             Could we then take a look at 24, from there onwards, from 24:10.

 5     I think we are going to come across it then, because I was reading out of

 6     the transcript and it would be a good thing to see this again.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please stop there.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You are aware that you did not exactly quote

10     what Mr. Mladic -- at least if we read that well.  Organising something

11     is not the same as providing something.  Unless there is any translation

12     issue.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the record I

15     was wish to say that I literally quoted the word:

16             "We have secured transportation for them, we have secured --

17     provided water, food, medicine."

18             Those were the words that I quoted exactly.  No other intent on

19     my part.  If the English version reflects something different, then ...

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We now have a third version.  In the subtitles we

21     find "organised," now you say "secured," and what you read was

22     "provided."

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall repeat that all three

25     times I used the same word, and I shall proceed.

Page 40285

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll check that later on but there is a slight

 2     difference.

 3             Please proceed meanwhile.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   My last question had to do with that, namely, whether this food

 6     and water were provided, and you said yes.  And now I wish to ask you did

 7     you see who it was that provided that and whether this was distributed to

 8     the people?

 9        A.   As far as I can remember, yes.  This aid arrived from Bratunac

10     and I think the members of the Dutch Battalion were also distributing

11     food as far as I can remember.  I don't know whether they had these dry

12     rations or something like that.  And then from Bratunac this aid arrived.

13     I think that bread was brought in and I think that water was distributed

14     somehow.

15        Q.   During this hour, hour and a half, that General Mladic was in

16     Potocari, did you personally notice whether General Mladic talked to any

17     one of the representatives of UNPROFOR or the UN there on the spot?

18        A.   I do not recall.

19        Q.   On that first day, did you see at any point in time that buses

20     had arrived and that the transfer of the civilian population had started

21     towards the destination that they had asked for?

22        A.   As far as I know, the transfer of the population started on the

23     next day, on the 13th of July.

24        Q.   On that first day, did you have an opportunity to see whether

25     there was any kind of separation of the military-aged population, men,

Page 40286

 1     from women, children, and the segments of the populations that are not

 2     combatants?

 3        A.   I don't know.  That did not happen in the zone where I was, as

 4     far as I can remember.

 5        Q.   When you say it didn't happen, are you speaking about all the

 6     days while you were there or are you just talking about the first day

 7     when you were there?

 8        A.   I'm talking about the 12th of July, specifically the first day.

 9     As far as I know, the separation started the next day.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

11     be asked to slightly move away from the microphone.  Thank you.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   On that first day, if that is the 12th of July as you said, did

14     you have any other specific tasks related to the stay in Potocari?

15        A.   I was there with Mr. Jevic and Mr. Djuric, and I helped them

16     communicate with the members of the Dutch Battalion.  There was this

17     specific task.  We can see how many people with were there.  We can see

18     it in the footage.

19             When the aid arrived, then all of these people had to receive

20     this aid.  And then the Dutch soldiers asked me to climb up onto an APC

21     and to pacify the masses, because they did not speak the Serbo-Croat

22     language.  And they told me to climb up onto the APC and to tell these

23     masses of people to calm down, that the food would be distributed.  That

24     was a specific task, for instance.  That is to say, I was mostly with

25     Mr. Jevic and Mr. Djuric, who was company commander in that unit.

Page 40287

 1        Q.   In this footage, you had the opportunity to see that near

 2     General Mladic and the people that he is addressing is a member of the UN

 3     with a blue helmet.  I wish to ask you whether you, on that first day,

 4     interpreted any kind of communication between General Mladic and this

 5     member of the UN wearing that blue helmet?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, no.  Of course, I cannot assert

 7     anything explicitly.  But as far as I can remember, no, I did not

 8     interpret anything.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  How long did you stay in Potocari on that first day?

10        A.   Until the evening hours.  I think that the unit was withdrawn,

11     say, about 2000 hours in the evening.

12        Q.   Where did you go?

13        A.   We returned to the base in the village of Bjelovac by the Drina

14     river.

15        Q.   After General Mladic was in Potocari on the 12th of July and then

16     until 2000 hours when you left Potocari, did General Mladic reappear in

17     Potocari at any point in time?

18        A.   Not as far as I know.  As I said, he was there for about an hour,

19     an hour and a half.

20        Q.   Did you notice the direction in which he left?

21        A.   As far as I can remember, I think he went in the direction of the

22     town of Srebrenica, but I'm not sure.

23        Q.   That night between the 12th and 13th of July, where were you

24     personally, physically?

25        A.   The police base in the village of Bjelovac by the Drina river.

Page 40288

 1     It was an improvised base.  It wasn't really a military or police base.

 2     It was improvised.  It was an elementary school and beds were brought in,

 3     and that's how it was turned into a base.  Nothing more than that.

 4        Q.   On the first day, did you notice any kind of combat around

 5     Potocari, the hills surrounding the area?  Is there anything

 6     characteristic that you remember that would be noteworthy now?  That is

 7     to say, above these locations, above the road where you were?

 8        A.   Before we entered, before this breakthrough, on the right-hand

 9     side -- to the right of this yellow bridge where we were waiting, there

10     was an oldest Zis cannon, 76 millimetres, from the world war, basically.

11     And just before we set out, he fired two or three projectiles in the

12     opposite direction towards the houses, hills, that were perhaps 500 or

13     600 metres away.  We don't know what -- I don't know what they wanted by

14     doing that.  And after that when we entered, I saw on the left-hand side

15     there was some houses, two or three houses, I don't know, that were in

16     flames in the hills, on the left-hand side.

17             As for these moments that you showed now, this wasn't happening.

18     So combat took place only in that period before.

19        Q.   In terms of time, can you tell us approximately when did that

20     take place before General Mladic arrived in Potocari?

21        A.   A few hours before he arrived.

22        Q.   During this first day, while you were there on that day in

23     Potocari until 2000 hours, did you notice any kind of mistreatment or

24     beating of the civilian population?

25        A.   Not where I was.

Page 40289

 1        Q.   I'm going to end before the break.  This night, did you spend it

 2     in Bjelovac?  Were you sleeping, or did you have any other specific

 3     tasks?

 4        A.   The night between the 12th and 13th, we did not have any tasks.

 5     We spent it at that base in Bjelovac.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that this

 8     would be the time for the break, and we are going to move on to the next

 9     day after the break.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break of 20 minutes.  You may follow

11     the usher.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that the issues about the number

17     have been resolved and that, Mr. Stojanovic, you were right in the number

18     you gave; that is, V000-9266.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, Mr. Stojanovic, you are going to proceed

22     to the next day.  I have one question with respect to page 9 of today's

23     transcript.

24             I would kindly ask you for one clarification, Witness.  When you

25     said before you went to the scene what we have seen on the video, you

Page 40290

 1     said:

 2             "At that moment I think that Mr. Jevic told me to move right and

 3     walk up the observation post.  So I went up and I encountered two

 4     soldiers of the Dutch Battalion there, so I was just told to control that

 5     particular point."

 6             I would kindly ask you to explain what do you mean by "control

 7     that point"?  What kind of control are you obliged to do?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said at the beginning of my

 9     testimony, it was quite a specific situation.  The soldiers of DutchBat

10     were not standard prisoners but they could also not freely do whatever

11     they wanted; hence, the specific situation.  Perhaps under the term

12     "control" we could understand me being there so as to make it clear to

13     them that, in a way, the position was taken up by the Serb forces.  It

14     was a very peculiar situation that cannot be described in standard terms.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not a specific explanation what it means

16     to control these people, these Dutch soldiers.  Were they free to move

17     around, to leave that particular location?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could leave the location, but

19     I was told to sort of -- well, since the observation tower was a few

20     metres from the ground, one could observe from there.  Perhaps that is

21     why Mr. Jevic sent me up, to go and observe the situation.  I can't

22     really say specifically what he had in mind.  As far as I remember, the

23     Dutch soldiers moved about freely.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What -- if they were allowed to move freely, what

25     kind of control were you given?  What does it mean, "to control"?

Page 40291

 1     "Control" is something else than "observe."

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said at the beginning, the

 3     situation was quite specific, which is difficult to explain.  They

 4     remained because their equipment was still there.  They didn't want to

 5     leave.  And on the other hand, we were ordered to be there.  So it was

 6     quite peculiar.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I've one follow-up question.  You said they could

 9     also not freely do whatever they wanted.  What were they not allowed to

10     do?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I recall, they could move

12     about freely but they couldn't go just wherever they wanted and do

13     whatever they wanted to.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could they take their vehicles and just move away?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a problem.  I personally

16     had a problem while interpreting with commandeering a vehicle.  There was

17     a problem of that sort on the 13th when the column had left.  Mr. Jevic

18     summoned me to interpret his words, that they needed to deliver a vehicle

19     that had to be given over to the VRS.  It was a very uncomfortable

20     situation for me.  I was supposed to explain to members of the

21     Dutch Battalion to leave the vehicle that had been issued to them.  They

22     told me they couldn't vacate the vehicle.  And then Mr. Jevic told me to

23     tell them that they have to get out, and I interpreted it as such.  Then

24     they said again that they can't leave the vehicle and that they will not.

25     Then Mr. Jevic said that unless they left, he would have to use force and

Page 40292

 1     arms.

 2             It was a very frustrating situation for me.  When they realised

 3     that the situation was very serious, they did get out of this white UN

 4     jeep.  That is why I said that the situation was very specific, peculiar.

 5     In a way, they were free and yet they were not.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So they could take a walk but they couldn't

 7     take their vehicles, they could not move their equipment.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             Please proceed.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  For example, their personal

12     weapons had not been taken away, but they were not allowed to use it

13     either.  So all of it was half-way, and it's very difficult to answer the

14     Judge's question to describe the situation clearly.  It was such that

15     they were neither free nor prisoner.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I also have a follow-up, sorry.

18             Sir, when you mentioned controlling the point much earlier, you

19     are talking about the 12th.  Now, this incident that you are explaining

20     as to why they couldn't move their vehicle you say was on the 13th.  It's

21     not quite clear what had happened on the 12th for you to take control of

22     the point that you said you took control of.  Are you able to explain

23     that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I explained about the 13th, it

25     had to do with the situation I was in, to give you an illustration.  That

Page 40293

 1     is why I referred to this situation on the 13th.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that.  What I'm saying is on the 12th

 3     where there was no situation of a vehicle, what was it that you were

 4     taking control of?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The territory that had originally

 6     been controlled by the units of the ABiH, the Muslim units.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, it's not entirely clear to me.

 9             If the same would have happened on the 12th - that is, that they

10     wanted to move and take their vehicles, perhaps take their equipment - on

11     the 12th, they would not have been allowed to do so either?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose so.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will follow-up on Judge Orie's

16     last question.

17        Q.   Were there any such situations that they wanted to leave and

18     somebody restricted their movement on the 12th of July?

19        A.   No, not that I know of.

20        Q.   Let me then conclude the topic by asking you this:  Were you

21     personally ordered that if they decided to leave with a vehicle that you

22     were supposed to stop them?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'll move on to the next day, the 13th of July.

25     Please tell the Court what was your specific task on that day.

Page 40294

 1        A.   My specific task on the 13th of July was to evacuate the

 2     population present from the area with the assistance of vehicles such as

 3     buses and trucks that were supposed to have been provided by the civilian

 4     authorities of Bratunac.

 5        Q.   To the best of your recollection, when did you arrive in

 6     Potocari?

 7        A.   We arrived in the morning, but not too early in the day as far as

 8     I remember.

 9        Q.   Had the vehicles already arrived or did you arrive before them?

10     The vehicles to evacuate the people.

11        A.   I don't remember exactly --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

13     repeat the end of his answer.  It was unclear.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last part of your

15     answer.  You said you didn't remember exactly and what did you then say?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think we arrived before the

17     vehicles, although I am not 100 per cent certain.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   In the location where you were, was there any pressure on the

20     people to leave or was it their will to board the buses to take them to a

21     different destination?

22        A.   The people wanted to leave the territory voluntarily because it

23     was an area affected by war.  And as far as I know, they left the area of

24     their own will.

25        Q.   On that second day in Potocari, were there any UNPROFOR or UN

Page 40295

 1     members present?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   On the 13th, did you at any point see General Mladic in Potocari?

 4        A.   Yes, he passed through.  I saw him but did not stop, unlike on

 5     the 12th.  In any case, he was around.

 6        Q.   You said he did not stop but just went through.  Can you remember

 7     in which direction and where was he going?

 8        A.   As far as I remember, I think he was en route from Srebrenica to

 9     Bratunac.  As far as I remember.

10        Q.   On that second day, i.e., the 13th of July, was any food and

11     water provided for the population in Potocari?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Were you able to observe who organised the distribution of the

14     water and food?

15        A.   The civilian authorities of Bratunac sent bread and water.  I

16     personally distributed food on that day, the 13th.

17        Q.   On that second day, the 13th, did you see if there was any

18     separation of military-age or able-bodied men from the rest of the

19     population in Potocari?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Can you explain to us how it developed, this separation process?

22        A.   At the moment when a column was formed comprised of trucks and

23     buses, people started boarding the vehicles at two locations.  One

24     location was the factory and the other on the road where there were far

25     more people than at the factory.  It included the meadows nearby, near

Page 40296

 1     the road.  At those two locations, the people started boarding the

 2     vehicles.

 3             At the moment when people approached, so, say, a family, a

 4     husband and wife, on entering a bus or a truck they were then separated.

 5     All adult males were separated from women at that point in time.

 6        Q.   Where were the men taken then?

 7        A.   There was a house called white house.  The men who had been

 8     separated were then taken to the house, as far as I know.

 9        Q.   Could you recognise any of the people in charge of the separation

10     process?

11        A.   No.  The people who participated on the 12th were both members of

12     police and military formations combined, but I didn't know most of those

13     involved in it.

14        Q.   Did you ever have occasion to hear why those able-bodied men were

15     being separated?

16        A.   There was some rumour.  Once it was all done, I heard from some

17     members of the Bratunac, the soldiers, that they were supposed to be

18     taken for an exchange.  That's what I heard.  But at the moment as they

19     were being separated, I didn't know what it was about.  It was also a

20     surprise to me because General Mladic had said the previous day that all

21     would be evacuated from the location.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I seek one point of clarification.

23             You were asked what people were in charge of the separation

24     process.  And then you said:

25             "The people who participated on the 12th were both members of the

Page 40297

 1     police and military formations combined ..."

 2             And that you didn't know most of those involved in it.  Now, was

 3     that any different on the 13th when the separation took place?  Was it

 4     also police and army or was it anything else?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same people who were there on

 6     the 12th were there on the 13th -- well, they were similar.  I wasn't

 7     familiar with the military structures then, but they took part in it.

 8     There were also some people from the police unit I belonged to, but I

 9     didn't know them personally.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   For the record, I would just like to ask you something to

13     clarify.  When you discuss those people, could you observe if those

14     people separated anyone on the 12th?

15        A.   Not on the 12th.  As far as I know, at the place where I was,

16     there was no separation.  The separation process started on the 13th when

17     the column was formed, and I could see that with my own eyes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  At the place where the process was developing on the

19     13th, did you at any point see General Mladic?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   On the 13th, if you'll recall, did you have to interpret any kind

22     of communication between UNPROFOR members and the police structures you

23     belonged to?

24        A.   Yes, from time to time, but much less.  Because by that time the

25     official interpreters had arrived and there was no need for me.

Page 40298

 1        Q.   Can you recall any such conversations and who took part?  Were

 2     there any conversations with interpretation that you were present at?

 3        A.   What I remember is once the separation process had been completed

 4     and the people were taken to the so-called white house, it was then that

 5     the members of DutchBat protested.  They said that the area was

 6     overcrowded, that there were too many people there, and that the

 7     conditions were poor.  That is what I remember.  I don't remember who was

 8     there precisely because I didn't know the Dutch soldiers.  I didn't know

 9     whether they were officers, soldiers, or whatnot.  In any case, I do

10     remember that they expressed their dissatisfaction with the status of

11     those people.

12        Q.   Can you remember who they expressed that dissatisfaction to?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Let me reformulate, then.  Did they express their dissatisfaction

15     to the army or the police officers -- the police COs?

16        A.   To the police officers.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wanted to do

18     something later, but for practical purposes I may well do it now.  Could

19     we again go back to P01147.  For the transcript, it is footage V000-9267.

20     I would like to view the footage from 07:57 to 09:0507:57 to 09:05.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please stop right now

23     for a second.

24        Q.   Mr. Gajic --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, we see subtitles, we hear no text.

Page 40299

 1     So it's unclear who says what is found in the subtitles.  Is there any

 2     way that we could also -- or is it intentionally that you didn't want to

 3     have sound included in what we see?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, I would like us to hear the

 5     soundtrack as well, and I would kindly ask that we be assisted here in

 6     the courtroom so that we can hear the sound.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we then restart the footage you've shown us

 8     but now with sound.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we pause for a second.

13     Could we just go back a bit, 3 seconds back.  Thank you for your

14     assistance.

15        Q.   Mr. Gajic, in this video footage, 80:8:10 - I'm saying this for

16     the record - do you recognise any of the people over there?

17        A.   No.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, it's 80:10, not 80:8:10.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it is 08:1008:10.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's what we are looking at now.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do you see yourself in this still?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Could you please tell the Court, as you describe it, where it is

Page 40300

 1     that you see yourself in this still?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not understand what

 3     the witness said.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please continue.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness please repeat his answer which was

 8     not interpreted.

 9             Where do you see yourself in this still, Witness?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the right.  The very right.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go on until

13     09:05.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             "I am talking about overcrowding in that place.  Where all the

16     men are being taken, it's too crowded.  They are sitting on each other.

17     That's why I want to speak."

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Gajic, is that the conversation?  Has this video footage

20     reminded you of the conversation that you spoke of a moment ago and the

21     objections in relation to the situation?

22        A.   Yes.  In addition to this, I think that the members of the Dutch

23     Battalion said that too.  I don't remember who the officers were who

24     objected to the status.  Believe me, I don't remember this footage at

25     all, so ...

Page 40301

 1        Q.   All right.  Did you interpret anything on that day, any

 2     communication between Mr. Djuric, Mendeljev, and somebody else, some

 3     representative of UNPROFOR?

 4        A.   I cannot recall.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one clarifying question.

 7             When this dissatisfaction was expressed, did you receive it or

 8     were you interpreting it?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that I interpreted

10     it.  The basic thing that I do not recall is who it was that was carrying

11     out this conversation.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So you don't know to whom you interpreted your

13     words --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the words spoken in English.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And members of the United Nations

17     and the members of the Dutch Battalion, both expressed their

18     dissatisfaction over the status of the people who were at the white

19     house.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, at that point in time was there exclusively

21     presence of the police unit you were in, or were there soldiers around as

22     well?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was combined, military and

24     police structures.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that the military would have heard those

Page 40302

 1     words as well?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I'm just going to put an additional question to you.  In view of

 7     your own capacity, would you interpret any words like this to any members

 8     of the military, or would you interpret this to your own superiors?

 9        A.   I had to do with the police officials, so as far as I know I was

10     not interpreting this to the military.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And now in view of your last answer that had to do

12     with the conversation between Djuric and members of UNPROFOR, I would

13     like to use P01147 again.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And yet again this is from the

15     video, V000-9267.

16             So let us take a look at 69, line 30, B/C/S transcript, to

17     page 70, line 5.  And in the English version, it is transcript page 75,

18     lines 21 through 26 in e-court.  And could we please take a look at 05:41

19     to 06:10.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please stop there for a

22     moment?  Thank you.

23             For the record, can I just say that we stopped at 06:07.

24        Q.   And I'd like to ask you, Mr. Gajic, can you recognise anyone in

25     this video footage?

Page 40303

 1        A.   The man whose back is turned to us is Mendeljev Djuric, the

 2     company commander in my unit.  I am in the middle, and to the right is a

 3     Dutch soldier.  I don't know whether he is a soldier or an officer.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we play the rest up until

 6     06:10.  It's just a few more seconds.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You have this video footage in front of you.  Djuric says:

10             "Let us tell them to go and get them from up there.  Miki!  To go

11     around and see if anybody else -- well, it's their job to collect them

12     and get them to the buses and wait."

13             This video footage jog your memory that these were the words of

14     Mr. Djuric that you would have interpreted?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   When Mr. Djuric says that you should interpret this to members of

17     UNPROFOR, that they should go around and see if anybody else would go,

18     and that that is their job, what did Mr. Djuric mean by that?

19        A.   He probably meant that members of the Dutch Battalion should go

20     above the road and check whether everybody had left, whether everybody

21     had boarded the buses.  That is how I understand this conversation.

22        Q.   At any point in time on that day, did you have the opportunity to

23     see that members of UNPROFOR took active part in this evacuation of the

24     population?

25        A.   I don't recall.  Members of the Dutch Battalion took active part.

Page 40304

 1     Well --

 2        Q.   So this active participation of the members of the Dutch

 3     Battalion, how was it reflected in terms of the evacuation of the

 4     population?

 5        A.   Well, they helped in the organisation itself, because this was an

 6     enormous number of people, so that these people could get on to the buses

 7     and trucks as fast as possible.  I think that you can see in this video

 8     footage that they were giving food and water.  And it was an enormous

 9     number of people there and all of that had to be co-ordinated.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

11     be asked to stay a bit away from the microphone.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You're again invited to move a little bit away from

13     the microphone.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put one question to clarify a matter.  We

15     heard the name Miki in the video several times.  Who is Miki?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's my nickname.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   While we still have the still before us, you are wearing, well, I

20     would say something that seems to be blue.  It looks like the colour

21     blue.  It's a flak jacket, isn't it, a blue flak jacket?  So is that

22     true?  And how come you have that?

23        A.   That's a police flak jacket, and we were issued with that.  I

24     think that when we arrived at the base in Bjelovac by the Drina river

25     that they gave us these flak jackets for protection.  But it's just an

Page 40305

 1     ordinary vest that is worn by the police underneath their shirts.  It had

 2     no special purpose.  I mean, I know what a real flak jacket looks like

 3     because I did my military service.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  But my question is basically whether this is the kind

 5     of vest that was worn by members of UNPROFOR or the Dutch Battalion?

 6        A.   It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Dutch Battalion.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  And I would like to end by dealing with

 8     one more topic.

 9             On this second day, did you walk up to the white house at all?

10        A.   No.  I passed by it but I didn't enter it.  I did pass by it.

11     This house is next to the road.

12        Q.   In front of this house, did you see certain personal belongings

13     or something like that, or some equipment, in front of this white house?

14        A.   Yes.  This was a huge pile of things like that, and I assumed

15     that they had belonged to the people who were separated and brought into

16     that house.  This was a huge pile of different things, bags, things.

17        Q.   As you were passing by that road -- or rather, in front of the

18     white house, did you see any passports, as personal documents belonging

19     to a physical person, a citizen?  Did you see anything like that on the

20     road?

21        A.   I did not notice anything like that.  I noticed this huge pile of

22     bags, these personal belongings that these people had probably packed

23     when they were setting out for this evacuation.  So these were their

24     personal belongings, probably.  That's what I noticed.  There was this

25     huge pile in front of the house.

Page 40306

 1        Q.   Thank you.  At any point in time on that day, the 13th of July,

 2     do you remember that there was any communication between these two men

 3     that you see before you now, Mr. Djuric and this gentleman with the blue

 4     cap, a member of UNPROFOR?  Do you remember that Mr. Djuric says -- or

 5     rather, that the member of the DutchBat says to Mr. Djuric something

 6     about passports or asks him something about passports on this road, and

 7     that Mr. Djuric gave him some answer in relation to these passports?

 8        A.   I don't remember that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And I'm going to finish by asking:  To the best of

10     your recollection, how long did you stay in Potocari there?

11        A.   I think until 1800 hours.

12        Q.   Was the evacuation over by then?

13        A.   It was over before that.

14        Q.   I'm going to slow down.  To the best of your recollection, when

15     did this evacuation end?

16        A.   Between 1500 hours and 1600 hours.

17        Q.   In that period in the afternoon in Potocari, did you perhaps see

18     General Mladic at any point in time?

19        A.   The general was there on the 13th, but I don't remember really

20     when.

21        Q.   Are you talking about when he passed by?

22        A.   Yes, when he passed by.  But I really don't remember when it was

23     that he passed by because I just saw him.  I mean, there wasn't any kind

24     of communication or anything, so, I mean, really I ...

25        Q.   To the best of your recollection, all these people in Potocari,

Page 40307

 1     did they leave the area of Potocari then?  Were they driven in the

 2     direction of Kladanj?

 3        A.   Women and children?  Yes.

 4        Q.   And the separated men?

 5        A.   The separated men remained at the white house and around the

 6     white house.

 7        Q.   Were you in Potocari?  Actually when you left Potocari, did these

 8     men stay in that building that you call the white house?

 9        A.   Yes, they stayed there.

10        Q.   And can you tell the Trial Chamber where it was that you went

11     after completing this work in Potocari?

12        A.   We returned to the base in Bjelovac again.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And I'm going to finish with the following question:

14     Generally speaking, how long did you stay --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you have announced now three times

16     your last question.  Will this be your real last question?  Because I am

17     also looking at the clock and the time you --

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So you'll now hear the last question of

20     Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   So let us end on this note:  To the best of your recollection,

23     how long did you stay in Bosnia-Herzegovina?  When did you go back home?

24        A.   It was on the 22nd of July that the dispatch arrived.  We were at

25     Treskavica, at our positions there.  On the 23rd of July, I was

Page 40308

 1     transferred to Jahorina, to the command centre.  And on the 24th of July,

 2     in the morning, I returned the equipment that I had been issued with and

 3     I returned to Valjevo.  I returned home on the 24th.

 4        Q.   Indeed, this was the last question that I had.  Thank you very

 5     much, indeed.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a question for clarification.

 7             When you left on the 13th, was the pile of personal belongings

 8     still there in front of the white house?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you have any knowledge of what eventually

11     happened to this pile of belongings?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I've also one or two follow-up questions.  One is:

15     You observed the evacuation and the separation, if I understood you well?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any recollection of individuals being

18     asked about whether they wanted to go back home or whether they wanted to

19     board the buses or whether they wanted to stay there?  Was any such

20     questions put to those who then finally boarded the buses?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The people were separated by

22     force.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that's the separation, that is, if I

24     understand you well, women and children from the adult men.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

Page 40309

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And -- so if men wanted to stay with their -- with

 2     the women and the children, they were not allowed to do that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose so.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And those persons who were separated from women and

 5     children, were they wearing civilian clothes or military attire or ...

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were mostly civilians.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You say "mostly."  What did you observe apart from

 8     civilian clothing --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Almost all of them.  Almost all.

10     Or perhaps someone might have had, say, camouflage pants but the rest was

11     civilian clothes.  In any case, they were mostly civilians.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you have not yet answered my question as to

13     whether individuals were asked, to the extent you can recollect, whether

14     they wanted to stay, or are -- you only talked about the separation.  But

15     by -- I mean the women and children, were they asked:  Would you rather

16     go home or stay here, or would you rather go on this bus?  Were such

17     questions asked, if you know?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No questions were asked.  When they

19     set out to board the buses and vehicles, they were separated suddenly.

20     Nobody asked them anything nor could they -- could there be any

21     questions.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  They were just then -- they --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the people were queueing,

24     approaching the vehicles.  And, for example, there was a family of four -

25     the wife, a daughter, a father, and son - the wife and daughter would be

Page 40310

 1     allowed to board a truck and someone would take the males away to the

 2     side.  So the men could not get through.  And they had no time, nobody

 3     asked them anything.  Your question was about that.  Perhaps they could

 4     have answered something if they had been asked previously, but no one

 5     asked them anything.  They were forced to obey.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But then the women and children were separated from

 7     the men.  Were they asked:  Under these circumstances would you rather

 8     stay or would you go back home?  Or was there any questions asked to

 9     them?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now I have another question for you.

14             Have you any knowledge about people, officials, who have compiled

15     lists of names?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  There is some buzz

17     coming from a piece of equipment.  Could you please speak up?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I will repeat.  Do you have any recollection if

19     anybody compiled lists of names of these men sent -- separated and then

20     accommodated in the white house?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no recollection.  They were

22     not separated selectively.  All adult males were separated from the

23     families and the women.  As far as I know, there was no screening, no

24     selection.  As far as I could see.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you have no knowledge about any lists

Page 40311

 1     compiled of the names?  Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to start its

 4     cross-examination?  If you want to cross-examine the witness.

 5             MS. HASAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Gajic, you'll now be cross-examined by

 7     Ms. Hasan.  You'll find Ms. Hasan to your right.  Ms. Hasan is counsel

 8     for the Prosecution.

 9                           Cross-examination by Ms. Hasan:

10        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Gajic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12        A.   [In English] Good morning.  [Interpretation] Good morning.

13        Q.   Just some points of clarification about the unit that you were

14     in.  Now, you were a member of the 1st Company of the Jahorina training

15     centre; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And you were part of the 2nd Platoon of that company?

18        A.   No, the 1st.

19        Q.   Who was your platoon commander?

20        A.   Goran Markovic.

21        Q.   And as far as you recall, Mendeljev Djuric was the company

22     commander; is that right?

23        A.   That is correct.

24        Q.   Do you recall Mendeljev Djuric going by any nickname?

25        A.   Mane.

Page 40312

 1        Q.   And do I have it right that Dusko Jevic was Mane's superior?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Gajic, when you spoke about the men who were taken

 4     across the factory to the white house, across from the factory to the

 5     white house, and you mention that you had seen a pile of belongings, now,

 6     these men were made to drop those belongings outside the house as they

 7     entered; isn't that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan.

10             Witness, did you see that personally, that they dropped their

11     belongings there, or is it your conclusion on the basis of that --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my conclusion.  I didn't see

13     it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please always be very clear in what you

15     saw and what you --

16             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- concluded.

18             MS. HASAN:

19        Q.   Okay, Mr. Gajic.  Then who was it that took the personal

20     belongings from these men?  Are you aware of that?

21        A.   I suppose it was done by the soldiers and police officers who

22     were present.

23        Q.   Okay.  I just would like to take you on this point back to an

24     interview you gave in Belgrade.  If you recall, that took place on the

25     5th of May, 2011, before the High Court in Belgrade.  Do you remember

Page 40313

 1     that?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.  I testified.

 3        Q.   And you told the truth?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MS. HASAN:  Could we take a look at 65 ter 33279, page 45 in the

 6     English, page 40 in the B/C/S.

 7        Q.   Now, I suppose, sir, that you can follow in either the B/C/S or

 8     the English, as you wish.  In the English, it's about -- starts at the

 9     third paragraph, and in the B/C/S it's approximately two-thirds of the

10     way down the page.  And you were asked by the deputy prosecutor of the

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina office of the prosecutor:

12             "Apart from the personal belongings from the separated men which

13     you mentioned, did you see any other things being taken from them?"

14             And your answer was:

15             "No, personal belongings were taken, bags."

16             Then you're asked:

17             "Did you see personal documents being taken away from them?"

18             Answer:

19             "Yes, I did.  I mean, I learned later that they were taken away,

20     even money was taken away, so that."

21             Question:

22             "Do you know who did that?  That is, members of which unit did

23     that?

24             "Well it was done by, partly, for instance, by the army and

25     partly by the guys I was with."

Page 40314

 1             Question:

 2             "So members of the unit in which you were?"

 3             Answer:

 4             "Yes."

 5             Mr. Gajic, was that -- were those truthful answers that you gave?

 6     Do you stand by that testimony?

 7        A.   The answers are truthful.  I did not personally see possessions

 8     being taken.  It says here in the third paragraph from the bottom I think

 9     I learned later that they were taken away, the things.  I could see stuff

10     being taken away, but I didn't see when exactly.  What I did see was an

11     enormous pile of items in front of the house.

12        Q.   And in seeing that pile collect in front of the house, it was

13     your conclusion that these belongings were taken from the men by members

14     of the army and by members of your unit.  Have I understood you

15     correctly?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, on the 13th of July, you depart and you return back to

18     Bjelovac.  Were there guards securing the men who were still in the white

19     house?

20        A.   I suppose there was a military unit that was left behind to guard

21     the people at the white house, but I don't know any more than that.  We

22     left the area at around 6.00 p.m.  All the people that had been separated

23     were in the white house and just behind it.  It is certain that someone

24     was left there to guard them.  I don't know who but I think a military

25     formation was left behind.  As far as I know, all members of my unit were

Page 40315

 1     withdrawn from that area.  As far as I know.

 2        Q.   Now, after that second day that you were in Potocari, you

 3     returned to your base at the school.  And am I correct that you are then

 4     awoken at around midnight, thereabouts, and you receive a new assignment?

 5     Do I have the chronology right?

 6        A.   Yes, you are right.  The unit set out to a new task immediately

 7     after midnight.  Perhaps between 1.00 and 2.00 a.m.

 8        Q.   And you are taken -- if you can correct me if I'm wrong on this,

 9     but you are taken by buses to a location very near to the Kravica

10     warehouse?

11        A.   That is right.  At that moment we didn't know where we were

12     going.  Later when we arrived, it turned out to be a facility of the

13     agricultural co-operative in Kravica.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.  This

15     part --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This part of examination leaves

18     the topics covered by examination-in-chief.  I don't think such questions

19     have been asked of the witness.  I did not deal with that part of his

20     testimony.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, do I have to remind you what the

22     limits are for cross-examination?  Could you tell me what is in the Rule

23     which says which are the boundaries for cross-examination?  Is that

24     exclusively the subject matter touched upon in examination-in-chief or is

25     there more in the Rules?

Page 40316

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Rule does envisage this

 2     possibility of going beyond.  I am aware of that fact.  However, these

 3     questions have been very specific and that is why I wanted my objection

 4     recorded in the transcript before the Prosecutor continues.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any issue about specificity in that Rule?

 6     What -- could you tell me what questions can be asked in

 7     cross-examination apart from what is touched upon in

 8     examination-in-chief?  There are two other categories.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, if you were to examine me,

10     Your Honour, I don't have the Rules before me, but I know that any

11     question that goes beyond examination-in-chief that could compromise the

12     testimony could be put in cross-examination.  I have no doubt about that.

13     And that is not in dispute.

14             However, for these specific questions --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, let me read the Rule which you

16     should have done yourself before you raised this objection.

17             "Cross-examination shall be limited to the subject-matter of the

18     evidence-in-chief and matters affecting the credibility of the witness

19     and, where the witness is able to give evidence relevant for the case for

20     the cross-examining party, to the subject-matter of that case."

21             Your objection makes me believe that you may have ignored the

22     last portion of that Rule, and Ms. Hasan may proceed.

23             MS. HASAN:  Your Honour, I note that it's time for the break.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It's time for the break.  You're right, Ms. Hasan.

25             Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to see you

Page 40317

 1     back at quarter past 12.00.  You may now follow the usher.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at quarter past 12.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.

 9             MS. HASAN:

10        Q.   You'll recall, Mr. Gajic, that we just left off talking about

11     your deployment on the night -- morning -- early morning hours of the

12     14th of July.  Now, where was it in relation to the Kravica warehouse or

13     the Kravica farming co-operative that you were dropped off with the

14     buses, as far as you remember?

15        A.   It was exactly in front of the warehouse in Kravica.  That is

16     where we got off the bus.  As we were leaving the bus, we were ordered to

17     go in the direction of Konjevic Polje as part of a column.  As we were

18     getting off the bus, we could see soldiers holding some people at

19     gunpoint.  Since it was dark, we couldn't see what was going on exactly,

20     but there were people in the warehouse itself who were being shot at by

21     the two soldiers we saw there.  We continued moving towards

22     Konjevic Polje and then we stopped, and I stopped some 400 to 500 metres

23     away from the warehouse itself.

24        Q.   The soldiers that you mentioned outside of the Kravica warehouse,

25     which unit, if you know, did they belong to?

Page 40318

 1        A.   At the moment as we were getting off the bus, I didn't know.

 2     However, later, when we came to replace the soldiers who were on the

 3     road, we learned that they belonged to the Sekovici Special Police

 4     Detachment.

 5        Q.   And just briefly if you can tell us what it was that you were

 6     tasked to do?

 7        A.   Our task was to secure the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje

 8     at that moment.

 9        Q.   And did your task include the capture of Muslim men?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And did you capture any Muslim men?

12        A.   Yes.  I think two or three people surrendered on that part of the

13     road where I was.  I didn't capture them.  They surrendered themselves

14     because previously a vehicle had gone through calling to the people to

15     surrender.

16        Q.   And these two, I think you said, two --

17        A.   Two or three.  I don't remember exactly.

18        Q.   Two or three men that were -- that surrendered and were captured,

19     what -- what did you do with them?

20        A.   The task was that those who surrendered themselves be put on the

21     trucks moving along the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road.  Those who

22     surrendered were put on those trucks and taken to the warehouse at

23     Kravica.

24        Q.   Do you recall the types of trucks that were carrying these

25     captured Muslim men?

Page 40319

 1        A.   They were military trucks, as far as I remember, that used to

 2     belong to the SFRY Army.  There was a larger truck, i.e., 150, that could

 3     hold more people, and there were two 110s or number 7s that could hold

 4     fewer.  In any case, the three trucks were used to transport the people.

 5        Q.   These men that were transported to the Kravica warehouse, what

 6     happened to them, if you know?

 7        A.   I know they were liquidated.

 8        Q.   And what do you mean when you say "they were liquidated"?

 9        A.   Killed.

10        Q.   And in addition to these men that were sent to the Kravica

11     warehouse and killed there, did you receive any other information about

12     what had happened at the Kravica warehouse prior to your arrival there in

13     the early morning hours of the 14th?  And as far -- as best as you can

14     recall, tell us what it is that you learned.

15        A.   I don't remember specifically.  There was an incident that we

16     learned about later on, but I do not know any specific details about the

17     incident.  It involved members of the Sekovici Special Brigade and the

18     people who were held prisoner there.  I don't know any other details.

19     There was some talk that an incident happened, but I don't know any

20     details.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, could I just ask clarification on one

22     matter.

23             You said the two or three which surrendered were taken to the

24     Kravica warehouse and they were killed.  Now, how do you know that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At approximately 10.00 a.m. until

Page 40320

 1     5.00 p.m. on the 14th of July, one could hear occasional bursts of fire

 2     from the direction of the warehouse.  At first we didn't know what was

 3     going on, but later the rumour had it that the people were being killed

 4     there in front of the co-operative.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So therefore it was your conclusion.  What you

 6     know is that they were taken there --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and you concluded --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- on the basis of what you heard --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and on the basis of what rumours told you after

13     that, that they had been killed.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was my conclusion on that

15     basis.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I again may urge you.  For us it's important to know

17     exactly what you've seen and what you tell us has happened which you have

18     not seen yourself.  So part of it you have seen, you have heard some

19     things.  "Heard," I mean fire.  And then other is rumours.  Could you try

20     to always be as precise as possible, especially in that respect.

21             Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I also have one or two questions for

23     clarification.

24             Sir, you mentioned a little earlier that two soldiers were

25     shooting people in the Kravica warehouse as you passed there.  Do you

Page 40321

 1     remember that part of your evidence?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were you able to see more or less how many people

 4     were there inside the warehouse who were being shot at?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not saying an exact number but an estimate.

 7     You're not --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  It was night-time, that is

 9     why we couldn't see.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then you talked about these trucks that

11     were carrying people to the Kravica later as you walked along.  You've

12     mentioned the three that were -- the people who surrendered.  Were they

13     the only three in those trucks or were there other people in the trucks

14     who were transported to Kravica at that point?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people were brought in front of

16     the warehouse in this way:  Those Bosniaks who surrendered were put on

17     trucks which went up and down the road from Kravica towards

18     Konjevic Polje.  Those who surrendered were put in the trucks.  And when

19     a truck was full, after it had done its round, it went back.  And the

20     people who had surrendered would then be taken -- were then taken to the

21     agricultural co-operative in Kravica.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  You say the trucks were full.  That was the

23     answer to my question.  More or less how many people could each truck

24     carry?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 110 cannot hold many people,

Page 40322

 1     perhaps six or seven.  Of course, some can also stand while others are

 2     seated.  As for the 150, together, standing and seated, there could be

 3     around 25 or 30 people.  The 150 is far greater than the other truck.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were you able to note how many times each of these

 5     trucks went up and down with the load to Kravica?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think between eight and ten

 7     times.  I don't know exactly.  But this would just be an estimate of

 8     mine.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Between eight and ten times carrying either

10     25 or seven people.  Thank you so much.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it wasn't always full.  It

13     wasn't always full.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand.

15             MS. HASAN:  Could we take a look at 65 ter 33279, page 31 in the

16     English, and page 28 in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   And, Mr. Gajic, this again is the examination that was conducted

18     in Belgrade on the 5th of May, 2011, before the High Court there.  And

19     just towards the end in the English and about the middle of the page in

20     the B/C/S, you were asked about what had happened to the persons who were

21     transported to the Kravica warehouse who had surrendered, and then you

22     were asked, question:

23             "Did you hear only about them or some others as well?"

24             Answer:

25             "And we also heard that those who had been there previously from

Page 40323

 1     Sekovici, they had practically carried out a large number of these

 2     executions."

 3             Question:

 4             "Who did you hear that from?"

 5             Answer:

 6             "Well, from the guys who went down there."

 7             Question:

 8             "What does 'guys who went down there' mean?"

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan, may I interrupt you.

10             MS. HASAN:  Yes.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the text we just had in front of us, now we've

12     moved to the next page, it is slightly different.  Can we go back?  It

13     says:

14             "From the guys who were there," not "went down there."  "Who were

15     there."

16             MS. HASAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And then the judge said:

18             "What does 'the guys who were there' mean?"

19             MS. HASAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Answer:

21             "Well, from the guys I was with in the platoon.  We were

22     stationed some 400 to 500 metres above.  I did not go down there.  I was

23     not present.  I did not watch the goings-on."

24             Now, what I've read so far, Mr. Gajic, do you stand by those

25     answers you gave?

Page 40324

 1        A.   I said here that I found out from the guys who were with me in

 2     the platoon, that's what I meant.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, we're now looking for the second time to

 4     this transcript or report about an interview.  I'm a bit confused, and

 5     perhaps the parties could seek an agreement on that.  It was presented as

 6     an interview that was given in Belgrade.  It was before the High Court in

 7     Belgrade.  And a little bit further down, it says that questions were

 8     asked by the deputy prosecutor of the Bosnia and Herzegovina office of

 9     the prosecutor.

10             Now, I can imagine a few situations.  That is, that it was a

11     letters rogatory examination by one prosecutor in another jurisdiction,

12     but it's a bit unclear to me -- I don't know whether the parties could

13     seek an agreement on what is exactly the procedural context in which we

14     have to look at this interview.

15             MS. HASAN:  I can discuss it with Mr. Stojanovic.  It's clear

16     from -- which I didn't put on the screen, which was this was -- these

17     were proceedings pursuant to letters rogatory by the BiH war crimes

18     office and were conducted in Belgrade.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I saw Mr. Stojanovic nodding in the

20     affirmative, so the Chamber then takes it that this is the procedural

21     context in which the witness was at that time interviewed.

22             Please proceed.

23             MS. HASAN:

24        Q.   Mr. Gajic, now when you learned about what had previously

25     happened at the Kravica warehouse, did you at that point in time hear any

Page 40325

 1     story or account of a Serb soldier being killed and a policeman being

 2     wounded?

 3        A.   No, not at that moment.  No.

 4        Q.   And --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I invite you again to move a little bit away

 6     from the microphone.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MS. HASAN:

 9        Q.   And just as a point of clarification, you had learned this not

10     the day of the 13th of July but the day that you were present there on

11     the 14th of July?  That you had learned about the executions that --

12        A.   Yes.  It was the incident that had occurred.  People talked about

13     it a lot.  I didn't really put any questions.  Before we came it was

14     talked about, that some incident had occurred.

15        Q.   I'm going to move on now and ask you about the next task that you

16     had received.  And after your deployment on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje

17     road, am I correct that you receive an assignment to sweep the terrain?

18        A.   That's right.  You're right.  The morning of the 15th.  That's

19     when we set out to sweep the terrain.

20        Q.   Now, I'll get back to when this sweep took place, but do you

21     recall the area in which your -- you and your unit performed this sweep?

22        A.   We set out from this road where we were and we went uphill, that

23     is to say, along that part from Kravica towards Konjevic Polje, over

24     those hills between Kravica and Konjevic Polje.  That's where the sweep

25     of the terrain took place.

Page 40326

 1             MS. HASAN:  Now, if we can look at 65 ter 05235, please.  It will

 2     momentarily come up in B/C/S as well.  There it is.

 3        Q.   So we see here that it's a very urgent order from the special

 4     police brigade.  You see on the bottom there it's from the commander

 5     Goran Saric.  And it's addressed to, among others, the Zvornik CJB public

 6     security centre, Ljubisa Borovcanin, and it says there Assistant Special

 7     Police Brigade Commander Dusko Jevric.

 8             Mr. Gajic, do you know of a Dusko Jevric who was the assistant

 9     commander?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Sorry, is it Dusko Jevric or Dusko Jevic?

12        A.   Jevic, not Jevric.  Jevic.

13        Q.   All right.  Let's look at item 1.  And item 1 says:

14             "Urgently form a combat group of battalion strength in the

15     Kravica - Konjevic Polje sector, using the Doboj Special Police

16     Detachment, two/seminar/ companies from Jahorina, and two PJP/special

17     police units/ with the following task:  During the course of today, 17

18     July 1995, conduct a search of the terrain in the Pobudje sector in order

19     to clear finally the right side of the Milici - Drinjaca road and then

20     concentrate forces to search Cerska.

21             "The commander of the Combat Group 2, comprising the units listed

22     in the previous item, is Assistant Special Police Battalion Commander

23     Dusko Jevric."

24        A.   Jevic.

25        Q.   It goes on at item 3:

Page 40327

 1             "Perform the task on 17 July 1995 and prepare to search the

 2     terrain on the left side of the road."

 3             And very briefly, item 4:

 4             "Form Combat Group 1 for the second part of the front."

 5             And it goes on to say:

 6             "Borovcanin shall appoint the commander and command and control

 7     both Combat Groups."

 8             Now, you were sent on -- to search the -- to sweep the terrain

 9     and Dusko Jevic was your superior there; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, but as we were sweeping the terrain on the 15th of July,

11     Dusko Jevic was not there.  What you showed just now is a completely

12     different event.  It has nothing to do with what it was that I was

13     talking about.

14        Q.   Okay.  When you searched the terrain, were you performing this

15     tasks -- task together with members of the army?

16        A.   Yes.  It was a combined sweep, members of the police and members

17     of the army together.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

19     be asked again to keep away from the microphone.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps it might be a solution to have the

21     microphone slightly lower, perhaps, because -- if it would still be clear

22     enough.  Yes.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the way it stands.

24             MS. HASAN:

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Gajic, you mentioned that this sweep that involved two

Page 40328

 1     companies from Jahorina was not the one you were referring to that you

 2     say took place on the 15th of July.  Have I understood you correctly?

 3        A.   Yes, that's right.  There was one sweep of the terrain when we

 4     went on the 15th in combination with the Bratunac Brigade, as far as I

 5     can remember, and it was from the area of Kravica towards Konjevic Polje;

 6     whereas what you showed, it says here the right bank -- actually, can you

 7     return this?  It says the right-hand area of the Milici-Drinjaca road.

 8     Geographically or substantially this is totally unrelated.  On the 17th,

 9     18th, that's when the sweep of the terrain did take place, but I did not

10     participate in that.

11             So these are two different events.  On the 15th of July there was

12     one sweep of terrain, and I think that on the 17th and the 18th there was

13     this other sweep, as far as I can remember.

14             So part of our police units had stayed on - had stayed on - in

15     that area there around Bratunac.  And then, as far as I know, they went

16     to sweep this terrain.  That is what you've shown us just now.  But I did

17     not take part in the latter.  I took part in the sweep of the terrain on

18     the 15th of July.

19        Q.   You are aware, aren't you, that your platoon commander,

20     Goran Markovic, was convicted as well as Dusko Jevic, Mendeljev Djuric,

21     for having taken part in the sweep of the terrain that took place on the

22     17th and 18th of July?

23        A.   Goran Markovic was set free, as far as I know.  As far as I know.

24     He was not accused, as far as I know.  And I did take part in these court

25     proceedings.  And I don't know -- I don't know these details.  Mr. Jevic,

Page 40329

 1     Mr. Djuric, they were accused.  I don't see that there was anything that

 2     was challenged there, as far as I know.  I mean ...

 3        Q.   Okay.  You're not aware of Mr. Markovic's conviction.  Where were

 4     you then on the 17th of July if you weren't ...

 5        A.   Well, at Jahorina.

 6        Q.   And you were there for how many days?

 7        A.   I think it was two or three days.  And then we were given a new

 8     assignment.

 9        Q.   Where did you go?

10        A.   We went to the foot of Mount Treskavica.  The name of the place

11     is Duga Poljana.

12             MS. HASAN:  I don't have this on the screen, Your Honours, I

13     don't have the judgement uploaded.  And if I may just read an excerpt

14     from that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, any objections to introduce the text

16     of the judgement by --

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I have no

18     problem.  And I believe this will be clarified once this judgement is

19     shown to the witness, if that is what this is about.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I think what Ms. Hasan announced is that

21     she cannot show it to the witness at this very point in time.

22             Ms. Hasan, but at least could you be very clear as far as which

23     court, what date, first instance, appeal, whatever --

24             MS. HASAN:  Your Honours --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 40330

 1             MS. HASAN:  -- I'm going to withdraw actually -- withdraw my

 2     questioning on that.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can agree on

 4     that.  I was defence counsel in that case and we can agree what the final

 5     judgement was in relation to Goran Markovic, so we really shouldn't take

 6     up more time with this.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MS. HASAN:  I agree, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan withdraws her question in relation to this

10     matter.

11             Then please proceed with your next subject matter.

12             MS. HASAN:

13        Q.   Mr. Gajic, in the sweep that you conducted you encountered some

14     captured Muslim men; is that correct?

15        A.   When we were returning along that road - that is to say, we've

16     completed the sweep of the terrain and we arrived in Konjevic Polje - we

17     went down there, and then we boarded buses and we went back along this

18     road from Konjevic Polje towards Bratunac.  I don't know exactly how many

19     kilometres, because I'm not familiar with the terrain at all.  I've never

20     been there since and I have never been there before that, that part of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We came across this group of captives, Muslim

22     civilians who were captives.  I think it was a military formation that

23     had taken them prisoner, and they were keeping them there on the

24     right-hand side, to the right of the road.

25        Q.   Sir, you're recorded as saying that:

Page 40331

 1             "I think it was a military formation that had taken them

 2     prisoner ..."

 3             Let's just break that down.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You thought -- what you're saying is you saw members of the

 6     Muslim army who were -- no.

 7        A.   No, it was civilians.  Civilians.  People were not in uniform.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Those were the -- the men who were captured; am I right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   The civilians.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And who was it who was securing these men, this group of people?

13        A.   Members of some military unit.  I'm not aware of which unit it

14     was.  We just stopped there briefly at that location and then we went on

15     towards the base in Bratunac.

16        Q.   And on what side of the road as you're travelling from

17     Konjevic Polje to Bratunac did you see these prisoners?

18        A.   I've already said.  On the right-hand side.

19        Q.   Did you ever receive any information about what happened to those

20     prisoners?

21        A.   No.

22             MS. HASAN:  I've nothing further, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hasan.

24             Any further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few questions, Your Honour.

Page 40332

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gajic, if I understood you correctly, during

 4     the night of the 14th of July you were deployed 4- or 500 metres away

 5     from the Kravica co-operative?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Between your positions and the agricultural co-operative of

 8     Kravica, on that day, the 14th, did you notice any members of the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska there?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Mr. Djuric --

12        A.   Gajic.

13        Q.   Sorry.  On that day, did you notice Mr. Mendeljev Djuric nearby

14     anywhere on that day?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Would you please tell us, when you started sweeping the terrain

17     on the 15th of July, could you please describe for the Court what it was

18     that you found along this route where you were moving?  What did you

19     observe, what did you notice?

20        A.   When we set out to sweep the terrain, as soon as we started going

21     up there was this forest there and we noticed a few bodies in very bad

22     shape.  You couldn't even tell, because they were in such bad shape,

23     whether they were civilians or military.  As we went further on, we came

24     across the dead bodies of members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And

25     then at one point when we reached -- I don't know what to call it, a

Page 40333

 1     height, we noticed an enormous trace, say, 15 metres wide, where a Muslim

 2     column had passed as they were moving, I assume, towards the territory

 3     held by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  These traces could be seen

 4     for kilometres, and probably many people went that way, I cannot say how

 5     many.  But it was so wide and it was so clear, so it certainly must have

 6     been several kilometres.  As you look at it, you could see it for

 7     kilometres.  We came across equipment that had been thrown -- thrown

 8     away, also weapons that had been thrown away.  We found all of that

 9     en route.

10        Q.   Did you notice any people who had committed suicide?

11        A.   At one location there were a few bodies hanging.  Now, I have to

12     say very clearly to the Judge that it is my conclusion that these people

13     had committed suicide, but that I don't know.  But we did see people

14     hanging in the woods.

15        Q.   How long did this sweep of the terrain last?

16        A.   The sweep of the terrain lasted during that morning of the

17     15th of July and ended about 3.00 in the afternoon when we went down to

18     Konjevic Polje, and from there we went back to the base.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one clarification.

20             You said that you also found weapons that had been thrown away.

21     Now, apart from whether you were there when they were thrown away, but

22     how many weapons, approximately, and what kind of weapons?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Different types of weapons.  We

24     came across hand-held launchers, so-called bazookas.  Then individual

25     weapons, that is to say, automatic rifles, pistols.  As for the exact

Page 40334

 1     number, I cannot say, but there were tens of pieces of weaponry like that

 2     strewn about the meadows on both sides of the road.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I'm just going to ask you to tell the Court the following.  As

 6     for this transfer along the Kravica-Konjevic Polje is concerned and then

 7     your stay there and the task that you were given on the 14th and then the

 8     task you were given on the 15th concerning the sweep of the terrain, did

 9     you get this assignment - you - from police officials or from military

10     officials?

11        A.   Police officials, I assume.

12        Q.   You personally, your unit, did you ever get any concrete orders

13     from any military officers?

14        A.   As far as I know, no.

15        Q.   Mr. Gajic, thank you.  On behalf of the Defence of

16     General Mladic, we have no further questions for you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have quite a few questions.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19                           Questioned by the Court:

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, can I just take you back to the Kravica

21     warehouse.  You remember you mentioned the two policemen who were

22     shooting people in the Kravica warehouse?

23        A.   One was shooting and there was this other one who was standing

24     behind him protecting his back, but it was one of them that was doing the

25     shooting.

Page 40335

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  That's an excellent detail.

 2             Do you know what army they belonged to, those two soldiers?

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  I do apologise.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You object to a question by --

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] He said "policeman."  I do

 6     apologise.  I do apologise.  I believe that I either received the wrong

 7     interpretation or it was misspoken.  He said "policeman," whereas what I

 8     heard was "soldiers" and ...

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it was an inappropriate intervention because

10     the witness used both.

11             Please proceed.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Judge.  I was trying to find the place

13     because I --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Soldiers, page 53, line 11:

15             "... we could see soldiers holding some people at gunpoint.

16     Since it was dark, we couldn't see what was going on exactly ..."

17             That's where the soldiers are mentioned, whereas later I think

18     there was another --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but I think earlier he talked about two

20     soldiers shooting --

21        A.   Later we learned that they were ...

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Anyway.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know, as I ask my question, what army they

25     belonged to, those two who -- one of whom was shooting inside the Kravica

Page 40336

 1     or at the Kravica warehouse?

 2        A.   They were members of the special police brigade from Sekovici.

 3     What I said was that as we were leaving our buses, we couldn't see well.

 4     At that moment we didn't know what unit they belonged to.  Later we found

 5     out that the unit in question was a police unit from Sekovici.  They were

 6     members of the police force.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And the Sekovici Special Brigade was a police

 8     force.  I leave the question now, but I'm going to look for the time --

 9     the place where you talked about two soldiers.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions, Ms. Hasan, after you have

11     concluded your consultation with Mr. McCloskey?

12             Ms. Hasan, I addressed you, but you may have missed it because

13     you took off your earphones.  If you could just look at the transcript.

14             MS. HASAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  If I could just have one minute,

15     I'm just seeing if I have one more question -- one question.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, one minute for one question.

17                           [Prosecution Counsel confer]

18             MS. HASAN:  Nothing further, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hasan.  If you'd give us one minute

20     for perhaps one question as well.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, I found the piece of evidence.  At page 53,

22     line 10, you said -- no, is it line 10?

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right.  Sir, on page 53, starting at line 12, you

25     say:

Page 40337

 1             "Since it was dark, we couldn't see what was going on exactly,

 2     but there were two people in the warehouse itself" --  sorry, I'm sorry.

 3             "... who were being shot at by the two soldiers we saw there."

 4             Okay.  Well, this is how you are recorded and I can see you are

 5     shaking your head.  But that's how --

 6        A.   Not correct.  I said as follows:  As we were leaving the bus,

 7     which was stopped right next to the agricultural co-operative at a

 8     distance of 7 to 8 metres, as we were leaving the bus I could see

 9     silhouettes.  One of them belonged to a soldier standing at the very

10     entrance of the warehouse, and we could see that he fired in a particular

11     direction every now and then.  There was another soldier standing behind

12     him covering his back, so to say.  That's what I said about the two

13     soldiers.  They were actually policemen, but I didn't know at the time

14     who or what they were.  Later on we learned that they were members of the

15     Sekovici Special Brigade.  When we rotated, we took over from them.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  This is a completely new correction of your

17     testimony.  It doesn't tally with what you are recorded as having said.

18     The point at which I'm talking about is the same point where you talked

19     about leaving the bus, and you said:

20             "We were ordered to go in the direction of Konjevic Polje as a

21     part of a column.  As we were getting off the bus, we could see soldiers

22     holding some people at gunpoint.  Since it was dark, we couldn't see what

23     was going on exactly, but there were people in the warehouse itself who

24     were being shot at by two -- by the two soldiers we saw there."

25             There is no mention of a silhouette and there is no mention of

Page 40338

 1     police at this point of your testimony.  You are talking about soldiers.

 2     So it's a correction of your testimony.  Thank you so much.  I have no

 3     further questions.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Everything being clarified, we have no further

 6     questions.

 7             Mr. Gajic, I'd like to thank you very much at the conclusion of

 8     your testimony for coming a long way to The Hague and for having answered

 9     the many questions that were put to you, both by the parties and by this

10     Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

11             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We are close to the point where we would take a

15     break.  Would you prefer to take the break now, Mr. Stojanovic, and then

16     start the evidence of the next witness, which is Mr. Poparic, if I am

17     well informed, after the --

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.  I

19     would like to seize this opportunity to advise you that Mr. Poparic only

20     just arrived in The Hague today.  In that regard, he could only appear as

21     of tomorrow.  For the remainder of 40 minutes of work or so today, we

22     have no other witnesses.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Which then means that we would adjourn for the day.

24             Often, of course, we urge you to keep witnesses ready, but in

25     view of the special circumstances where you could, under normal

Page 40339

 1     circumstance, expect Mr. Poparic to start his testimony later as he now

 2     will do, there is no reason whatsoever to make similar comments as we've

 3     made in the past.

 4             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the

 5     27th of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.09 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day

 8                           of October, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.