Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 40962

 1                           Monday, 9 November 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             No preliminaries.  Therefore, could the witness be escorted in

12     the courtroom.

13             Meanwhile, I address the following matter.  That is about 92 bis

14     statement.

15             On the 8, the 10th and 17th of September of this year, the

16     Chamber conditionally admitted Rule 92 bis packages for Zeljka Milinovic,

17     Draga Milinovic, Bozo Davidovic, respectively.  In those decisions

18     six-week deadlines were imposed for filing relevant attestations and

19     declarations.  The Chamber notes that these have not been filed nor has

20     the Chamber received any communication from the Defence regarding these

21     deadlines.  The Chamber reminds the Defence that the Zeljka Milinovic's,

22     Draga Milinovic's, and Bozo Davidovic's evidence will not be admitted

23     unless the declarations and attestations are submitted.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Marjanovic, I assume.

Page 40963

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we start, the Rules require that you make a

 3     solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.  May I

 4     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  OSTOJA MARJANOVIC

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Marjanovic.

10             Mr. Marjanovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

11     You'll find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.

12             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Marjanovic.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   I would like to ask you to tell us your name and surname, which

18     is what we usually do here in this courtroom.

19        A.   My name is Ostoja Marjanovic.

20        Q.   Mr. Marjanovic, could you please tell me when you were born and

21     where.

22        A.   I was born in 1942 in Prijedor.

23        Q.   I would like that to ask you to describe your schooling and

24     professional career to us in brief terms.

25        A.   I graduated from high school.  After that I got a degree from the

Page 40964

 1     University of Belgrade in mining.  In the 1970s, I started working in the

 2     Ljubija iron-ore mines.  In professional terms, I first worked as head of

 3     shift and then worked my way up to general manager and that is the post I

 4     assumed on the 1st of October [as interpreted], 1991.

 5        Q.   Could you please tell the Court -- did I understand you

 6     correctly:  The 1st of February, 1991?  Until when were you general

 7     manager of the Ljubija mines?

 8        A.   From the 1st of February, 1991, I was president of the management

 9     board as it was called in those days and that's what I was until the end

10     of 1996.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for the

12     transcript, it seems to me that on page 3, line 3, it says the 1st of

13     October, 1991, and the witness actually said the 1st of February, 1991.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  To the extent there was an error in the

15     transcription it has been rectified, it has been corrected by your

16     follow-up question and the answer.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.  Thank you.

19        Q.   Could you please tell the Court, Mr. Marjanovic, whether you did

20     your regular military service and whether you had any kind of military

21     training.

22        A.   In 1969, I did my military service, one year in the air force,

23     and I was just a foot soldier.

24        Q.   After serving in the military doing your regular military

25     service, did you have any kind of rank in the military?

Page 40965

 1        A.   In 1992, in November, as a volunteer, I joined the air force of

 2     Republika Srpska, and I was given the rank of second lieutenant because I

 3     was a sports pilot.

 4        Q.   After the multi-party elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were you

 5     politically involved at any point in time?

 6        A.   No.  Towards the end of 1993 and then up until August 1994, I was

 7     vice-president of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of

 8     Prijedor, and since, at that time the Serbian Democratic Party, the SDS,

 9     appointed personnel, at that moment I was a member of that party,

10     therefore, but when I resigned in August 1994, I left the party as well.

11     Sorry, may I just add one more thing.

12             After the Dayton Accords in 1996, I was a member of the

13     democratic party from Serbia.  I was in the Main Board.  I was on the

14     Main Board.  It was Mr. Djindjic's party.  I supposed to organise the

15     party in Bosnia in Republika Srpska.  Because our programme concept for

16     Republika Srpska differed, I -- we therefore parted ways.

17        Q.   When you said that from 1991 to 1996, you were president of the

18     management board of the Ljubija mine, I would like that ask you to

19     explain to us a bit here in the courtroom what that means and what these

20     duties are.  What is it that the president of the management board of a

21     mine does?

22        A.   If you allow me, I'm going to give you the organisational chart

23     of the Ljubija mines in the briefest possible terms and you will

24     understand my duties on that basis.

25             The mine consisted of 24 organisational units.  Three of them

Page 40966

 1     were production based.  That, the central, eastern -- central mine,

 2     Eastern Mines or Tomasica and Omarska, and then all of these units were

 3     headed by directors.  I chaired this management board that these

 4     directors were members of and they had their offices where the mines were

 5     and I was in the city of Prijedor so, according to the statute, as the

 6     general manager, I acted on the basis of the law and my relations with

 7     the state were based on that.

 8        Q.   At that time, until 1992, how many employees were there in the

 9     Ljubija mines?

10        A.   When I assumed my post on the 1st of February, 1991, the total

11     number of employees was 4.730.  It was a mixed ethnic group in Ljubija,

12     there were Czechs and Poles and Ukrainians, who practically stayed there

13     after the first world war and that's where they worked.  And already in

14     1916, when Austro-Hungary started production in those mines, they started

15     living and working there.

16        Q.   As the war developed did the number of employees go down and did

17     the ethnic composition of the employees of the mine become any different?

18        A.   After what happened in May 1992, and then throughout 1992, the

19     structure changed.  All of these unfortunate events -- well, I have to

20     mention that part of the employees who were ethnic Croats and Muslims

21     left Prijedor already at the end of 1991.  However, all these other

22     unfortunate events that took place in April, May, June 1992 made people

23     leave Prijedor so the structure changed significantly, especially the

24     mine.  It was not operating.  So I could not actually see what the ethnic

25     composition was like.

Page 40967

 1             Also, quite a few of the employees from the Ljubija mines were

 2     involved in the brigades, the 43rd Brigade and the 5th Kozara Brigade.

 3        Q.   As management, as the manager of the mine, did you ever pursue a

 4     policy of discrimination against employees who were non-Serbs in terms of

 5     their further employment?

 6        A.   Since the number of employees went down and the activity of the

 7     mine as well, I had the powers to impose work obligation.  I testified

 8     here earlier on and I had documents that showed orders on work obligation

 9     and the structure was heterogenous.

10        Q.   Until when was the mine operating and until when was it

11     delivering ore?

12        A.   Sorry, it wasn't 1991.  1992.

13             In the beginning of March, it delivered iron-ore to the Zenica

14     steel mill and after all of these well-known events, production stopped

15     everywhere, and even equipment.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just interrupt, Mr. Stojanovic.

17             Sir, you were asked whether you did ever pursue a policy of

18     discrimination against employees who were non-Serbs in terms of their

19     further employment.

20             I don't think I understood your answer.  Did you or did you not

21     practice that policy?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise to you.  Since I

23     said that on the basis of my orders on work obligation, that is to say,

24     I -- I thought that I had responded when I said that the people who had

25     work obligation this different ethnic backgrounds.  So, no, I did not

Page 40968

 1     pursue any kind of policy of discrimination.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Marjanovic, in view of what it was that we called you here

 5     for, I would like to draw your attention to some questions that would

 6     be - how do I put this?  - significant for us here.

 7             The company that you headed, did it, in 1992, have any kind of

 8     construction mechanization in the sense of bulldozers, excavators and

 9     other heavy construction machinery?

10        A.   You've already responded by putting this question.  It is

11     hydraulic excavators and electric bulldozers, Caterpillars, Russian-made,

12     789, those are the types, that is.  So we had several such pieces of

13     equipment but this was mining equipment for mines.  That is to say -- but

14     we also had construction equipment for construction as such, for

15     constructing buildings.

16        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber the following:  When you say that

17     part of the mine included the eastern mine, what do you mean by this,

18     eastern mine, or what did you mean in the company itself when you say

19     that?

20        A.   That's implied because it's 18 kilometres to the east of

21     Prijedor.  The place where the pits are are Busnovi and Maric village.  I

22     don't know where the name Tomasica comes from and which period it dates

23     back to because the villages are named, as I said.

24        Q.   But to make things clearer, this name, Tomasica, does it

25     correspond to that concept in the economic and business sense of your

Page 40969

 1     company, which is Eastern Mines?

 2        A.   Yes.  In our business documents, you will also find the name

 3     Eastern Mines, as well as Tomasica.

 4        Q.   What kind of works were carried out there until 1992?

 5        A.   It's a classical open-pit mine.  The ore was lying at a depth of

 6     150 metres and the width of the pit was 20 to 30.

 7             First of all, the useless layers are removed to reveal the ore.

 8     The ore is transported by dumpers to Susari, I'm talking about the

 9     Eastern Mines, where it is voided of about 20, 30 per cent of moisture

10     and the product thereof is transported to Smederovo.

11        Q.   This kind of works, were they carried out at Eastern Mines or

12     Tomasica until February 1992?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes, all the three units of production in the manufacturing

14     of ore were active.

15        Q.   Did it imply the need for heavy machinery to be used in Eastern

16     Mines, some of the machinery that the Ljubija mines had until 1992?

17        A.   Towards the end of February and beginning of March, through the

18     managers of production units, I ordered that all the heavy machinery,

19     those are machines over 50 tonnes each, be placed in maintenance garages

20     where it was maintained and serviced so that the engines be repaired and

21     the oil stirred so that certain assemblies would not be removed or taken

22     away.  That means that the heavy machinery used in Eastern Mines and

23     Omarska was in mechanical shops, and a certain number of people were

24     taking care of the maintenance.

25        Q.   With the outbreak of war in Croatia in 1991 and in

Page 40970

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992, did there occur a requisitioning of this

 2     equipment and machinery belonging to the company which you headed at the

 3     time?

 4        A.   Yes, already in 1991.  A smaller part of our equipment was

 5     requisitioned, mainly bulldozers, for the needs of the 43rd Brigade,

 6     mainly.  And these requisitioning lists still exist, I believe, in the

 7     old part of the mine.  One part of the Ljubija mine is now

 8     ArcelorMittal company.  I believe the owners are in London.

 9        Q.   Will you tell the Court briefly how does this requisitioning

10     process go legally and in practice?

11        A.   The representative of a military unit either comes personally or

12     sends something in writing to present their demand for certain machines.

13     They fill out forms to confirm that they requisitioned a certain machine.

14     In the requisitioning paper, although they sometimes ask for operators to

15     be supplied too - I did not do that because I didn't have the right to

16     send men together with the machines - and then they would take the

17     machine away and transport them -- haul them away, basically.

18        Q.   From the moment a machine is requisitioned, who manages the

19     machine, who makes requests for its use and who is responsible for it?

20        A.   It's exclusively the entity that requisitioned it.  I have to

21     stress here that sometimes it happened that I would get information from

22     my personnel that a certain machine -- attempts are made to -- to take

23     away a certain machine.  And then I had to intervene for the machine to

24     remain the property of the Ljubija mine, despite the fact that it's being

25     used by a particular military unit.

Page 40971

 1             If you allow me, I'll give you an example.  In 1994, a drill of

 2     230 millimetres diameter was used in building the road from Laniste to

 3     Banja Luka.  A civil engineering from Laktasi was using it for these

 4     works and when I got information that they were trying to take this drill

 5     away permanently, then I asked the owner of that company or the manager

 6     of that company to warehouse this drill in our own depot and the head of

 7     that company took that drill back to Ljubija, where I believe it still

 8     is.

 9        Q.   Did it happen ever that a machine requisitioned by the JNA or

10     later the VRS remain in the mine, or was it taken away for the purposes

11     of some military task?

12        A.   It was mainly transported to another area where it was used in

13     works.  My assumption, if I may say it, was that the army used bulldozers

14     to build roads in impassable areas where they were active.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was whether it happened that

16     the machinery stayed in the mine.

17             Now you said it mainly was transported to another area, but the

18     question was:  Did it happen that the machinery was not transported to

19     another area but remained in the mine?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my knowledge, every

21     machine that was requisitioned was transported away from the mine and

22     returned when the works were finished.  I will give you the example of

23     Koricanske Stijene where the Security Services Centre from Prijedor

24     requisitioned part of our equipment and five days later returned it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And upon return, was it on -- formally handed over

Page 40972

 1     again to the mine or -- so that the mine would be responsible for the

 2     equipment?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Did you, the management of the mine, and you, as the director,

 8     have the possibility to oppose requisitioning of your equipment that was

 9     the property of the mine?

10        A.   No.  There was no such possibility.  We could not prohibit the

11     requisitioning of either people or equipment.  That is to say, we could

12     not oppose mobilisation or requisitioning.

13        Q.   According to the legislations prevailing in 1991, was it at all

14     possible to oppose any requisitioning of machines when they were required

15     for the defence of the country?

16        A.   I'm not very familiar with the legislation, but I'm sure it was

17     not possible to oppose it because, in the beginning of 1991, it was in

18     the interests of the state to engage all the resources for defence.

19        Q.   I'll ask you something else now, related to the organisation of

20     the operation of the mine.

21             At that time, in 1991, 1992 and the other years of war, did your

22     mine have active security around the whole complex and inside it?

23        A.   As part of the mine complex, there are two dams for sludge

24     disposal in Ljubija and in Omarska.  In the end of 1991 and beginning of

25     1992, there was a units of popular defence within the mine, and they had

Page 40973

 1     some weapons.  Upon my orders, the weapons were given to local

 2     communities to defend the dams from demolition or collapse.  The flood,

 3     any flood resulting from the collapse of a dam would destroy all the

 4     settlements downstream.  Until May 1992, this worked well.  After that,

 5     the whole amount of the equipment was returned to the mine and upon my

 6     orders again, all this equipment was given to the military unit in

 7     Palanciste, together with the explosives that were used in the mining.  I

 8     cannot be very precise about whether this was exactly in May or in

 9     April but in any case all of the weapons and part of the -- part of the

10     uniforms were given to the military unit I mentioned.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... sir, what are

12     units of popular defence?  Were these security guards employed by the

13     mine or were these members of the army?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had this doctrine of All

15     People's Defence, which means the army and the people together.  That

16     doctrine prevailed in the former Yugoslavia and it implied that, in the

17     case of the danger of war, all of us had the obligation to be mobilised

18     and accordingly we were issued uniforms and everything except weapons.

19     We also got certain sets of equipment against chemical weapons et cetera.

20     So most of the military-age men had equipment and had uniforms and that's

21     the kind of unit I'm talking about.  As opposed to the security detail of

22     the mine which, according to the law, had different uniforms and

23     short-barrelled weapons.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And did I understand you correctly that you

25     earlier did say these units of popular defence did have weapons?

Page 40974

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one follow-up question.

 4             You earlier said that ... that:  "Weapons were given to local

 5     communities to defend the dams ..."

 6             What local communities are you talking about?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hope to make this clear.  These

 8     weapons were stored in the depot of the mine, and local communes are

 9     Ljubija, Omarska and Tomasica.  Especially Ljubija and then Omarska.

10     Exclusively for the purpose of these dams where sludge was deposited into

11     such a large embankment as to form a dam.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But it's still not clear.  Through what channels

13     were the local communes provided with weapons?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A certain amount of weapons that

15     were stored in the mine were directly issued to the president of the

16     local commune.  I remember in Ljubija it was a Muslim woman who was the

17     president of the local commune, and they kept guard duty at these dams to

18     prevent sabotage.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What quantity should I think of?  For example,

20     the Ljubija, how many weapons did you give to the president of the local

21     commune, that Muslim woman?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If my memory serves me well, not

23     more than six automatic rifles.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 40975

 1        Q.   At any point in time after 1992, did the Army of Republika Srpska

 2     physically secure the mine?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   The people who were the security detail of the mine, during the

 5     war years, did they wear a uniform?

 6        A.   I've said before that there was a special unit of security men

 7     who wore a distinctive uniform.  Each mine had its distinctive uniform,

 8     and they had small-arms.  In the beginning of 1992, anybody could wear a

 9     uniform for several reasons.  First of all, we all had one.  The

10     so-called SNB uniform, the olive-green grey.  And, second, that somehow

11     elevated the person wearing the uniform.  And, third, it was a kind of

12     protection.

13        Q.   Were these men serving their work obligation in the mine or were

14     they members of a military unit?

15        A.   I can say this.  Some workers who were doing their work

16     obligation wore that uniform, but the uniform was also worn by civilians

17     and others inside the villages.  It was difficult at that time to say why

18     somebody is wearing a uniform.  I repeat:  Almost everybody was wearing a

19     uniform.  There was even an order in May 1992 that all managers of

20     companies had to wear a uniform, and I had to wear one too sometime until

21     the end of June.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ... was this

23     uniform the same as the uniform worn by the soldiers, by the army?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the first stage, it was

25     mostly military uniforms of the former JNA.  In the later stage, they

Page 40976

 1     varied.  There were camouflage uniforms, there were those that just

 2     involved a jacket.  Then there were SNB ones, olive-green-grey.  All

 3     sorts.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But did they belong to the military, to the VRS,

 5     now that the JNA was no longer there?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how to answer.  I

 7     cannot say either yes or no.  I've just explained that most citizens wore

 8     uniforms.  They didn't belong to the defence or the army at all.  They

 9     just wore uniforms for their own protection.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  But what I'm asking you is whether these

11     uniforms that these people wore were they similar to those worn by the

12     VRS or was it possible by looking at various units to say, That is an

13     army uniform and that is not an army uniform.  It's a uniform of

14     something else that I may not know.  Or was it indistinguishable?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not make a distinction --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ...

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   Thank you, Ostoja.

20             What about the Eastern Mines, or Tomasica as we've been calling

21     it?  At that time, in 1992 onward, did it also have its own security,

22     physical security that we've been speaking of until now?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Tell us, as for industrial facilities, in this area that we call

25     area that we called Tomasica, what was there within that complex?

Page 40977

 1        A.   The road that leads to the facilities actually leads to a gate so

 2     that civilians could not enter.  After the gate, there is the management

 3     building with a restaurant.  Then further on, there is a service shop to

 4     the right.  Then, on the left is the so-called sitara.  That is actually

 5     a plant where the mine -- where the ore is further dealt on.  Further on

 6     from the sitara, there is a plant for drying ore in two furnaces.  Then,

 7     further on, there is a mixing plant where the ore is brought in and

 8     undergoes this process.  There was another gate too, in addition to the

 9     one that I spoke of.  It's about 100 metres away and it entered the

10     compound of Ferox.  That is a plant that was built on the basis of

11     natural pigment.  They had a mini-plant, a drying plant, a mixing plant,

12     and they were a integral whole.  That is to say, they were an independent

13     entity.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

15     have in e-court an aerial image.  It is 32665.  That's its 65 ter number.

16     So that all of this would be a bit clearer to us, everything that the

17     witness spoke of.

18             65 ter 32665.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I, meanwhile, ask a follow-up question to the

20     witness.

21             You said there was an order sometimes that managers had to wear

22     uniforms as well and you did now and then as well.  Who gave that order?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Executive Board of the

24     Municipal Assembly of Prijedor.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And do you remember when that order was given.

Page 40978

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said in May, and I remember that

 2     I wore a uniform, say, up until the end of June.  I could not give you

 3     the precise date.  1992.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was the Executive Board of the Municipal

 5     Assembly of Prijedor, at the moment of issuing that order, was it still

 6     multi-ethnically composed?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, could you please take a look at the screen in front

12     of you?  You will see a photograph.  And I'd like to ask you the

13     following:  Can you recognise this area depicted in the aerial image?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Would you please tell the Trial Chamber specifically what area

16     this is.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

18     speak into the microphone and could other microphones please be switched

19     off.  We cannot understand him at all.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're invited - and perhaps the microphone

21     could be slightly adjusted as well - to speak into the microphone so that

22     your words will not be lost.  And perhaps you repeat your answer.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the road that leads to the

24     Eastern Mines from the direction of Prijedor.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 40979

 1        Q.   Could I just stop you at this point and I'm going to ask our

 2     usher for assistance.

 3             If you could use the pen to draw an arrow in the form of an arrow

 4     to mark the direction leading to the mine of Tomasica.

 5        A.   This is the direction leading from Prijedor to Tomasica.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7        A.   The road to Maricka goes to the other side.

 8        Q.   Please don't hold this against me, but I'm going to ask you step

 9     by step.

10             In order to make clearer for us could you mark on this map using

11     a line, can you mark the barrier that was the check-point that allowed

12     access to this entire area, the area called Tomasica.

13        A.   The initially built one was here.

14        Q.   Could you please mark that with the letter A.

15        A.   A.  The second is in this area here.  That's B.  That is the

16     access route to Ferox.

17        Q.   Could you please mark the first access point again.  We said we

18     would mark it with the letter A.

19        A.   That's it.  And this is the letter A.

20        Q.   Would you put the letter A there?

21        A.   A.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness has done that, Mr. Stojanovic.  We see a

23     letter A is the upper one in the right lower-hand corner, just above

24     where the witness made a B.  And immediately left from the A and the B,

25     he marked the entrances, the gates.

Page 40980

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   Could you put a circle around the facilities that are on the

 4     left-hand side immediately after the first access point; and could you

 5     please tell the Trial Chamber what are these buildings in relation to the

 6     ones that you mentioned a moment ago.

 7        A.   I'm talking about gate B.  This here is the Ferox plant.

 8        Q.   Could you please put the letter F there.

 9        A.   The letter F.

10        Q.   Above, we also see some buildings.  Could you please put a circle

11     around them and could you tell what you say kind of buildings these are,

12     what kind of facilities these are?

13        A.   When one enters through gate A, to the right is the management

14     building with the restaurant.

15        Q.   Could you please put UZ there, [B/C/S spoken]?

16        A.   Then is the service shop, PSR, [B/C/S spoken].

17        Q.   I would like to ask you to tell us what kind of facility this is,

18     the one above the PSR to the left of this road?

19        A.   If you allow me, I would like to draw your attention to the

20     following.  To the left of the PSR is the sitara.  That is where the ore

21     is processed.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23        A.   As the road goes on, there's the drying plant, where the ore is

24     dried.

25        Q.   Further on?

Page 40981

 1        A.   The road continues to the open pit of the Eastern Mines.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In 1992, 1993, 1994 and 1995, these four years of

 3     war, who provided physical security for all these facilities at these two

 4     points?

 5        A.   People from the Ljubija mines provided security for the PSR and

 6     the facilities for preparing ore.  People from Ferox, that's a special

 7     department not within the mine, they provided security for these

 8     facilities of Ferox.

 9        Q.   Members of the Army of Republika Srpska, did they provide

10     physical security at any point in time at these two points that you

11     marked just now?

12        A.   No, not at all.  To the best of my knowledge, and I had to

13     receive information these directors there who covered certain facilities.

14     At the end of 1995, all the way up until the end of 1995, the military

15     did not provide security for any part of these mines.

16        Q.   The mentioned persons who provided this physical security, did

17     they have any kind of military weapons or any kind of personal weapons

18     for that matter, if not military?

19        A.   As for guards from Ljubija, I already mentioned that they had

20     short-barrelled weapons.  As for the people from Ferox, I don't know.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, do you want to tender this marked

22     aerial view of the area?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Just one more

24     question which would involve the necessity of further marking perhaps.

25        Q.   Mr. Witness, just in order to make things clearer for us as we

Page 40982

 1     went through this yesterday, this -- this body of water, this lake, if I

 2     may call it that, could you please tell us what this is about or, rather,

 3     the two lakes that we see in this photograph?  What are they?

 4        A.   The first lake above these plants is the lake of the open pit.

 5     This dates back to 1988 because water came through and then the

 6     exploitation of the mine stopped.  To the north is a deposit of waste and

 7     that is how this second lake was created.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this aerial image be

10     admitted into evidence.  It is 65 ter now 32665.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we proceed to that, I'd like to clarify

12     that where the witness said the road continues to the open pit of the

13     Eastern Mines, that is when he added some arrow-shaped markings going

14     from what he marked as S first to the right and then later further up.

15             No objections.  Madam Registrar.

16             MR. TRALDI:  No objections, Your Honour.  Just for the record, I

17     understood Mr. Stojanovic to be tendering the exhibit as marked by the

18     witness, but it wasn't clear from the words he used.  So I just wanted to

19     make sure I understood what I wasn't objecting to.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I earlier asked whether he wanted to have

21     this tendered.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, aerial view marked by the witness.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives Exhibit D1347, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D1347 is admitted.

Page 40983

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Just a few more questions before the break, Mr. Witness.

 5             Tell us, during 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, in this area of the

 6     Eastern Mines called Tomasica was there any construction machinery that

 7     had not been mobilised and that was nevertheless in this area?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   If you remember, could you please tell us what kind of machines

10     these were or what kind of machine this was that had not been mobilised

11     and that stayed in the area?

12        A.   The completed equipment for the open pit was there.  Dumpers,

13     Caterpillar 70-tonnes bulldozers, Caterpillar graders, G 16.  We call

14     this -- we called this small-scale mechanization, that is to say, for

15     maintenance, excavators that were used for selective excavation.  I think

16     that there were small buses there, up to 12 seats, for the transportation

17     of workers while there was still exploitation.  Practically, the entire

18     mechanization that is indispensable for the operation of the open pit.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It's time for the break.  You said you would have a

21     few questions before the break but how many questions would you have at

22     all for the witness?  Because I think you scheduled him for one hour.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.  I

24     think I have about ten questions left.  And I think that within the next

25     15 minutes or so, I will complete the direct examination of this witness.

Page 40984

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll then first take the break and you'll have 15

 2     minutes after the break.

 3             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we'll resume at five minutes to

 6     11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to enter the

10     courtroom, I briefly deal with the Defence filing of the -- of Rule 92

11     bis motions after the deadline set by the Chamber.

12             On the 17th of August of this year, the Chamber set the deadline

13     of 18th September for the Defence to file any remaining Rule 92 bis

14     motions.  This can be found at transcript page 37908.

15             The Chamber notes that on 29 October, the Defence filed a Rule 92

16     bis motion in relation to Mile Matijevic with no explanation as to why

17     the motion was being filed six weeks after the deadline.  The Chamber

18     would like to hear oral submissions from the Defence as to why this

19     motion was filed late within the next 24 hours.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             MR. LUKIC:  I can say now, Your Honour, that witness is in

22     connection to Tomasica, so probably by that time we didn't have

23     everything sorted out.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but at least such an explanation should be

25     provided if you file such a motion.  Whether that is a valid reason I

Page 40985

 1     leave that open for the time being, but at least you should have paid

 2     attention to it.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If there are any further submissions by either

 5     party, we'd like to hear tomorrow.

 6             Witness, we'll now continue.  Mr. Stojanovic has another 15

 7     minutes of questions for you.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             And the Chamber would appreciate, Mr. Stojanovic, that you put

10     such questions that we can easily link them to what the core of the case

11     is and what is the evidence is presented by the Prosecution.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Marjanovic, did there come a time during the war when the

15     Army of Republika Srpska was physically present at the Eastern Mines of

16     Ljubija?

17        A.   There is one period, and I cannot tell you precisely which month

18     but it was in 1994, when the 6th Sana Brigade, or a part of it, passed

19     through Tomasica and spent the night there.  Which unit and how large it

20     was, I don't know.  This is something that I was told by a soldier who

21     travelled with me from Brcko to Prijedor and he told me that he had been

22     in our laboratory where they broke some equipment and he was talking to

23     me without knowing that I'm the manager of that mine, whereupon he got a

24     bit scared.  But that's the only time when army troops were at the

25     Eastern Mines.

Page 40986

 1        Q.   When in 1992 was the 43rd Prijedor Brigade there, mobilising

 2     people?

 3        A.   That brigade was holding positions facing Gradacac, and the 5th

 4     Kozara Brigade was in the area of Brcko.

 5        Q.   Did there come any time during the years of war when you had

 6     occasion to meet with General Mladic in Prijedor?

 7        A.   No, I never met the general in those four or five years.

 8     Although I had been invited when Karadzic or Krajisnik and others

 9     visited.  To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Mladic has never been in

10     Prijedor.

11        Q.   Does that also apply to 1993, 1994, and 1995?

12        A.   Yes.  From the beginning of 1992 until the Dayton Accords, I

13     never saw him at any meeting that I attended, nor did I hear from anyone

14     else that he had been in Prijedor.

15        Q.   You, as manager of the mine, did you have any obligation to

16     report or inform the Army of Republika Srpska, its Main Staff or the

17     Command of the 1st Krajina Corps about the developments inside or around

18     the Ljubija mines?

19        A.   I had no such obligation.  As for activities inside the mine, the

20     keeping of the equipment and security and protection, I reported to the

21     board of the municipality of Prijedor, in fact, the Secretariat for

22     economy.

23        Q.   As manager of the mine, did you have any knowledge about the

24     burial of corpses around your area?

25        A.   No, none.  When I appeared here as a witness in 2003, I was shown

Page 40987

 1     a map where these grave-sites were identified and then I saw that it was

 2     not only Tomasica but Jakarina Kosa and some others were grave-sites --

 3     sites of mass graves.

 4        Q.   When did you testify?  In which case and when did you receive

 5     that information for the first time?

 6        A.   I believe it was 2003, the month of March.  The case was Stakic.

 7     I spent four days in the courtroom.

 8        Q.   At that time or perhaps later, did you have any knowledge from

 9     where these bodies were brought to be buried there?

10        A.   I have no knowledge at all.  Anything I could say would be an

11     assumption, but I believe my assumptions do not matter.

12        Q.   Thank you for that.

13             And to conclude, do you personally have any knowledge about who

14     led this process of gathering these bodies, the sanitization of the

15     terrain and the burial of the bodies in these areas?

16        A.   If I may use an analogy, if the public security centre from

17     Prijedor sanitized the terrain around Prijedor, Koricanske Stijene and

18     knowing a little about the work of the public security centre and its

19     responsibilities and independence, my guess is that it was done by the

20     public security centre of Prijedor.

21        Q.   Thank you very much for your answers.  Knowing about your health

22     situation, we have no further questions at this moment.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Fluegge has a question before we give an

24     opportunity to the Prosecution to cross-examine the witness.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Marjanovic, a minute ago you were asked by

Page 40988

 1     Mr. Stojanovic:  "When in 1992 was the 43rd Prijedor Brigade there,

 2     mobilising people?"

 3             I'm not sure if you have answered that question.  It was recorded

 4     that you would have said that brigade was holding position facing

 5     Gradacac.

 6             Again, please answer the question:  When in 1992 was the

 7     43rd Prijedor Brigade there, mobilising people, if you know.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  Because the

 9     43rd Brigade was in Slavonia.  When they moved from Slavonia to the area

10     of Gradacac, I don't know exactly, but it was in 1992.  Because my men

11     who were in that unit were returning home from that area.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Marjanovic, you'll now be cross-examined by

14     Mr. Traldi.  You'll find Mr. Traldi to your right.  Mr. Traldi is counsel

15     for the Prosecution.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

19        Q.   Good morning, sir.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   You mentioned a moment ago that you testified in the Stakic case.

22     You were also interviewed by staff of the Office of the Prosecutor in

23     July of last year; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Is it your position that you told the truth on those occasions?

Page 40989

 1        A.   I do.  I do claim that.

 2        Q.   Now from 1991 to 1996, and indeed since then, you lived in

 3     Prijedor town; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   I have a couple of questions about the company now.  Before the

 6     war, RZR Ljubija was the largest employer in Prijedor municipality;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   It was a state-owned company?

10        A.   Yes, a state-owned company.

11        Q.   And you mentioned on direct examination, at temporary transcript

12     page 4, that from 1993 to 1994 you were vice-president of the Municipal

13     Assembly Executive Board.  You hadn't been a member of the SDS before

14     that but you joined the SDS to hold that position; right?

15        A.   No.  I joined the SDS because I accepted the position of

16     vice-president of the Executive Board in order to be able to act within

17     that party.

18        Q.   And Slobodan Balaban, one of the other officials at RZR Ljubija,

19     he was a member of the SDS Municipal Board in Prijedor; right?

20        A.   No.  He was not a member of the Executive Board.

21        Q.   And I think my speed of speech may have been off.  Let me re-ask

22     the question and make sure the translation is correct.

23             Mr. Balaban, one of the other officials at RZR Ljubija, was a

24     member of the SDS Municipal Board in Prijedor municipality; right?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 40990

 1        Q.   Now when you served as vice-president on the Executive Board, the

 2     vice-president of the municipality was a man known as Cigo; right?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   He'd commanded a VRS unit in 1992?

 5        A.   I think so.  I'm not sure.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32093.

 7        Q.   This is part of the 4th Tactical Group bulletin from May of 1994.

 8     Looking at the first paragraph in the text below the heading, we see a

 9     reference to fighters from Mount Kozara setting off on what it describes

10     as the Serb people's decisive battle for survival.  And it refers to the

11     fighters of the 2nd and 5th Battalions strengthened by the Cigo and Zolja

12     strike groups.  The Cigo group, that's the one commanded by the

13     vice-president of the municipality at the time you served on the

14     Executive Board, Momcilo Radanovic; right?

15        A.   That's the end of 1992, I suppose.  At that time I think - but I

16     cannot be sure - that he was vice-president in the Municipal Assembly

17     from Autumn 1993 to August 1994 when I resigned.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Traldi, if are you interested in a complete

19     transcript, then you really should slow down.

20             MR. TRALDI:  I take the point, Your Honour, and I am interested

21     in a complete transcript.

22             I'll tender the document.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 32093 receives exhibit number P7620,

25     Your Honours.

Page 40991

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P7620 is admitted.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32859.

 3        Q.   As it comes up you also served on the SDS commission for

 4     information and propaganda in 1994; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you are invited to repeat the ...

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, a number of a document which we thought would

10     not have been released but has been released by now.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Could we that document, please, 65 ter 32859.

13        Q.   Now this is a decision on the election of members of the

14     commission for information and propaganda.  We see under members your

15     name first and below you, Ostoja Kesar.  Now, he was the editor of

16     Kozarski Vjesnik and of Radio Prijedor; right?

17        A.   Correct.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 31040.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Anything you'd like to do with the present document,

20     Mr. Traldi?

21             MR. TRALDI:  I will tender it.  It's related to the next two and

22     so I'd thought to do them together.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You take them together.  We'll wait for that.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   This is an undated list of SDS Municipal Board commissions.

Page 40992

 1     Under commission for information and propaganda, we see your name and

 2     Mr. Kesar's again.

 3             Then under political council at number 2, we see

 4     Slobodan Balaban.  That's the RZR Ljubija official we discussed earlier;

 5     right.

 6        A.   With your leave, I was a member of the commission, and there was

 7     only one meting held and no more.  And Mr. Balaban was the director of

 8     clay trade company at that time.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  And can we have 65 ter 14313A.  And we're looking

10     for the top of the page in the B/C/S, the second point.  And this is the

11     programme orientation and editorial policy of Kozarski Vjesnik and Radio

12     Prijedor.  We see in the second point:  "Both these information media,

13     especially at this wartime, must act as a political platform of the Serb

14     nation, Army of Republika Srpska, as well as of political and civilian

15     government organs of the Serb nation."

16             Now this was consistent with SDS policy; right?

17        A.   I could not comment upon this.  I was not part of the political

18     leadership of the SDS and what is written here, I can't say anything

19     about it.

20        Q.   You were part of the SDS information and propaganda committee as

21     we saw a moment ago.  You were the vice-president of the Executive Board

22     of the Municipal Assembly, as you testified on direct examination.  Are

23     you sure you're unable to confirm whether what we see in front of us is

24     consistent with the platform of an organisation for which you served on

25     the propaganda and information commission?

Page 40993

 1        A.   If you've been paying attention, I said only one meeting of the

 2     propaganda committee was held that I attended, and I never attended any

 3     more meetings, and the reason was that the concept that I advocated did

 4     not fit into the policies of the SDS.  And for that reason, I cannot

 5     speak about or comment upon the programming orientation of this

 6     newspaper.

 7        Q.   Now, in fact, sir, to be able to opine that your policy didn't

 8     fit in the SDS policy, you'd have to know what the SDS policy was; right?

 9        A.   You are imputing that to me.  I didn't have to know.  I presented

10     my views.  The president of the committee did not agree with it.  That

11     was the only time when I was present there.  And I never came again.

12             The policies were created by the Main Board which also defined

13     their tasks and charted policies.  I was not part of it.

14        Q.   What views did the president of the committee disagree with?

15        A.   First of all, the operation of the economy, the political

16     leadership of the SDS replaced all heads of companies in Prijedor if they

17     were not members of the SDS.  My proposal was that it was the balance of

18     the accounts of a company that should decide whether a manager should

19     stay or go.

20             Also, my view was that leaders of businesses should be decided by

21     open contest.  They did not agree with it.  Instead, they said - and

22     Karadzic confirmed it - that they had to be members of the SDS.  Those

23     were two of my proposals.  They were both rejected, and there was no need

24     even for any more debate.

25             MR. TRALDI:  I'm about to address that answer, Your Honours, but

Page 40994

 1     before I do, I tender the past three documents that's 32859 --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives Exhibit P7621.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  31040.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives Exhibit P7622.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  And 14313A.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives Exhibit P7623.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Now, you testified a moment ago about the SDS position on

13     replacing heads of the companies.  In fact, you know that the Prijedor

14     Crisis Staff ordered that all the Muslims and Croats in all the companies

15     be fired; right?

16        A.   I did not receive that order from the Crisis Staff but from the

17     Executive Board.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please answer the question.  The

19     question was whether you knew that the Crisis Staff ordered such

20     dismissals.  Not how you received it.  The question is:  Were you aware

21     that this was ordered by the Crisis Staff?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was not aware.

25             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 40995

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 33385, page 235.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we look at that, but you did receive an

 3     order, although you say it reached you from the Executive Board?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.  Thank you.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Now, this is part of your OTP interview where you testified a

 8     moment ago you told the truth.  You'd said the SDS did not trust you.

 9     The Crisis Staff did not trust you.  "Because I was speaking," you say,

10     "completely opposite than what they were speaking."

11             And lower down on the page, you're asked:  "What activities of

12     the SDS Crisis Staff did you disagree with?"

13             You answer:  "With release of employees, for example."

14             And turning to the next page, you were asked:  "From the Ljubija

15     mines company?"

16             And you responded:  "In all the companies.  It was an order that

17     employees, Muslims and Croats are to be fired, basically."

18             Now, does that refresh your recollection as to your knowledge

19     that the Prijedor Crisis Staff ordered Muslims and Croats in all the

20     companies in Prijedor municipality to be fired?

21        A.   I said a moment ago that I received a proclamation by the

22     Executive Board, specifically the Secretariat for the Economy, and I

23     probably misspoke in this situation.  I said I disagreed with the Crisis

24     Staff.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'm going ask that a number be

Page 40996

 1     reserved for excerpts of the interview.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, a number to be reserved for

 3     excerpts.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  P7624, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll later see what you, and perhaps also the

 6     Defence, will upload from this interview and then we'll decide on whether

 7     or not to admit it as P7624.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Before I move on, sir, I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play the

10     audio of 65 ter 33385a, another portion of your interview, also part of

11     your discussion of what activities of the Crisis Staff you disagreed with

12     that we saw on the previous page.

13                           [Audiotape played]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, have transcripts been provided to the

15     booth and ...

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that, like with videos, in playing it a

18     second round, we'll receive interpretation.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  So we'll play it a second time now.  And the

20     booths received a transcript of his original words in B/C/S.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so that ...

22                           [Audiotape played]

23             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] After what happened in relation to

24     the Crisis Staff, the cleansing of Prijedor, leveling the old town to the

25     ground, there are quite a few things that they did, not to mention the

Page 40997

 1     establishment of the investigation centre that happened where my people

 2     were, and so on.  I did not agree with that."

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   Now, in what way, when you said those words did you mean that

 5     Prijedor had been cleansed?

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7        A.   On the 30th of May, an attack was carried out against Prijedor.

 8     There were three days of war operations.  There was shelling and there

 9     were houses that were damaged.  The Executive Board of the Municipal

10     Assembly of Prijedor established a commission that was in charge of

11     taking care of the effects of the shelling and the war operations.  They

12     mobilised equipment from the mine, and this equipment was involved in the

13     cleaning of the debris from the buildings that were destroyed.  It was at

14     Berek that the heaviest fighting had been taking place, so that is

15     practically where all the buildings were cleansed with mechanization.

16     Although expropriation of that area had already taken place.

17        Q.   Now you mentioned in your recorded answer a place called

18     Stari Grad.  That's the old town of Prijedor, a Muslim neighbourhood;

19     right?

20        A.   That's correct.  I also mentioned that it was called Berek.  It

21     is one and the same thing.

22        Q.   And the shelling you mentioned, that was done by the VRS; right?

23        A.   I don't know.  I really don't know who it was.  If I were to say

24     anything, I would be making a mistake because I just don't know.

25        Q.   You do know that -- you confirmed that a moment ago.

Page 40998

 1             You stand by, then, your words in the interview that we heard on

 2     the audio; right?

 3        A.   Stand by what?  Sorry?

 4        Q.   Your words in the interview.  The cleansing of Prijedor and the

 5     leveling of the old town to the ground.  You stand by those things;

 6     right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You mentioned there were three days of war operations.  Now,

 9     while roundups of Muslims from the Stari Grad and other neighbourhoods

10     continued, in fact, the VRS had control of the situation within a matter

11     of hours; right?

12        A.   You mentioned roundups of Muslims, I'm not aware of any such

13     thing.  I know that I spent three days in the house because these war

14     operations were underway.  They started about 4.00 a.m. on the 30th of

15     May, and that went on for the next few days.  I can say that at that time

16     I was at home throughout, and I didn't dare go outside.

17        Q.   Now these, the cleansing, the levelling, are these among the

18     unfortunate events you referred to during direct examination that caused

19     Muslims and Croats to leave Prijedor municipality?

20        A.   I think that if you're linking this to the cleansing of the town,

21     the old town, Berek that is, in that period there probably weren't any

22     inhabitants there.  The entire operation took place under the command of

23     the commission that was established by the Executive Board.  The

24     assumption was since expropriation had taken place, the entire area had

25     been expropriated, it is for that reason they were cleansing that area.

Page 40999

 1     There was supposed to be a sports centre there.

 2        Q.   Two follow-up questions.

 3             First, when you say in that period probably there weren't any

 4     inhabitants there, you mean the period when RZR Ljubija equipment was

 5     being used to knock down what remained of the buildings there; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, second, you mentioned the cleansing was something that you

 8     were opposed to in your interview.  You wouldn't be opposed to the

 9     creation of a sports centre.  What were you opposed to about the

10     cleansing?

11        A.   I have to draw your attention to something.  That is the sports

12     centre decision was taken a lot earlier, a year or two before that.  An

13     entire expropriation took place and quite a few of these people from

14     Berek, from the old town, built beautiful houses in the surrounding area.

15        Q.   Sir, I understand you're focussing on the sports centre.  I'd ask

16     you to focus on the cleansing.  What about the cleansing were you opposed

17     to?  What aspects of it.

18        A.   Against destroying buildings that were in good condition and that

19     were operational.

20        Q.   Now we also heard in the recorded portion of your interview that

21     we played a moment ago we heard you refer to an investigative centre.

22     That was at one of the RZR Ljubija mines, Omarska; right?

23        A.   That's right.  The first time I had a document containing

24     instructions to establish an investigation centre was in 2003 when I

25     testified.  Simo Drljaca headed the public security centre and --

Page 41000

 1        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I'm certainly not suggesting

 2     to you at the moment that you established the investigative centre, and

 3     I'll make very clear if I'm suggesting that you did.  But I'd ask to you

 4     focus closely on the questions that I ask you so we can move through most

 5     efficiently.

 6             Now you did learn in late May 1992 that Omarska had been taken

 7     over; right?

 8        A.   No.  I don't understand.  I mean, we're not understanding each

 9     other.

10        Q.   Sure.  Did you learn in late May 1992 that the Omarska facility

11     had been taken over by the army and the police.

12        A.   No.  The police, yes.  The army, no.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 33381, page 66.

14        Q.   This is a part of the testimony in the Stakic case that you

15     testified a moment ago was truthful.  You're asked:  "After the conflict

16     in Kozarac, the facilities in Omarska -- your facilities in Omarska were

17     taken and occupied.  What can you tell us about the way this happened? "

18             And you answered:  "The director of Omarska was Dusko Vlacina.

19     He was director of the production plant there.  And the organisation of

20     watching the facilities in Omarska was under his authority.  I learned a

21     few days after the incident in Kozarac that the army and the police had

22     forcibly entered the facilities in Omarska."

23             Now, do you stand by this portion of your Stakic testimony that

24     I've just read back to you?

25        A.   I can confirm everything you said about that period except for

Page 41001

 1     the centre of public security.  They practically entered the facility and

 2     they took up the management building and the work-shop.

 3             As for the army, that they entered, I cannot say that because

 4     they offered me a contact so that they could move into Omarska and I

 5     didn't want to sign that contract.  But it's possible that they were

 6     there for a while.  It's the JNA.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 33383, page 27.  And as it comes

 8     up, I'll ask that an exhibit number be reserved for excerpts of the

 9     witness's Stakic testimony?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps we already reserve that number now.

11             Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives exhibit number P7625, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the excerpts still to be determined finally,

14     but this number is reserved.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Now at the lower end of the page beginning at line 20, you were

18     asked:  "Sir, didn't you testify that you were aware of the mine being

19     taken over by the army in May?  Let me ask you:  Weren't you aware in

20     May that the army did what you described as a take-over of the Omarska

21     mine?"

22             And you answered:  "That was the end of May."

23             And then you gave a similar explanation.

24             Turning to the next page, at the very bottom you were asked:

25     "You told us that you became aware from security guards, I believe you

Page 41002

 1     told us -" and the lawyer says:  "I'm looking for the page but I can't

 2     find it - that the army and police had entered the facility in late May.

 3     Is that correct?

 4             And you answer:  "Correct."

 5             Do you stand by these two portions of your purportedly truthful

 6     Stakic testimony that I've just read back to you?

 7        A.   It is possible, actually it is certain that the public security

 8     centre or, rather, part of the local population entered forcibly after

 9     having removed our guards and that they took the warehouses.  I stand by

10     that.  They stole tools, equipment that they took to their own homes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  This -- Witness, you certainly are aware of what the

12     gist of the question is.  You carefully left out, apparently, whether the

13     army was involved.  You confirmed the police.  It's now put to you that

14     the three portions in your testimony that you said it was police and the

15     army, and now in your answer to this question, you just -- you are silent

16     on the army and pretend to have answered the question.  You have not.

17             Do you stand by your testimony in Stakic on these last two

18     portions, as well as, as far as the army is concerned?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm 100 per cent sure about the

20     public security centre.  I'm not sure about the army, but it's possible.

21     The JNA at the time.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Now, I see you're eager to identify the army as the JNA.  By the

25     end of May in 1992, you know the army in Prijedor was the VRS; right?

Page 41003

 1        A.   I don't know that.

 2        Q.   I used the word "investigative centre" when I was -- when we

 3     introduced Omarska because it was what you'd said in that portion of your

 4     interview.  You know, in fact, this was a camp; right?

 5        A.   You interrupted me when I spoke earlier on.  I wanted to explain

 6     more extensively so that we could be understanding each other.

 7             At this moment, on the basis of the document that I first saw in

 8     2003, it says the investigative centre.  That's what it says in the

 9     letterhead.  That's the document that I'm speaking of.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Let's have 65 ter 33385, page 122.

11        Q.   Now we see your answer in another part of your purportedly

12     truthful OTP interview here at the bottom of the page.  You're discussing

13     Omarska.  And you say in the second line:  "I will now call it by its

14     real name, camp Omarska."

15             And in B/C/S you can see the words [B/C/S spoken], do you stand

16     by that portion of your OTP interview as truthful and accurate?

17        A.   Yes.  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, where did we see the words "the true

19     name."  Oh, I see in the original.

20             MR. TRALDI:  I believe it's the phrase that starts [B/C/S

21     spoken], which I understand as "now I will."

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And [B/C/S spoken] would then be the -- I don't see

23     the translation yet.

24             MR. TRALDI:  It's on the right now.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's now on the right.  It wasn't before.  Thank

Page 41004

 1     you.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   Now you were asked about this camp in the Stakic case and I want

 5     to just show you part of that testimony.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 33381, page 67.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's now P7625.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  I think it's been reserved for parts of it,

 9     Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Oh, I'm sorry.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   And you were asked:  "From the moment when the facility the were

13     taken over, could you in any way influence the developments at that

14     site?"

15             You responded:  "Firstly, let me tell you that there was no way

16     for me to do anything, to prevent these things.  I'm afraid that at

17     that -- that if I had received a document at that time, I would have made

18     an attempt to prevent these things from happening.  And I frankly don't

19     know what would have happened to me."

20             Now, first, do you stand by that part of your Stakic testimony?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What things that happened at camp Omarska did you mean that you

23     would have attempted to prevent from happening?

24        A.   When I said to prevent, I would have prevented entry into the

25     mine, if I could have.  The establishment of the so-called investigative

Page 41005

 1     centre, on the basis of the original document.

 2             As for what happened inside the camp, I don't know what happened

 3     inside the camp, except for the books that I read written by people who

 4     had spent time there.

 5        Q.   Now you heard at the time that people were being killed in

 6     Omarska; right?  "At the time," meaning in 1992.

 7        A.   I think that it should be quoted in its entirety.  It is true

 8     that I heard, listened, but then I did not believe these rumours because

 9     later on I encountered people who were still alive.

10        Q.   Sir, you discovered that not everyone in Omarska had been killed

11     and consequently discounted what you had heard:  That anyone who had been

12     in Omarska had been killed?

13        A.   I don't know what it is that you're trying to ask me.  I'll try

14     to answer.

15             On the basis of all the rumours that were bandied about - I was

16     not there, I don't know what happened there - later on it turned out that

17     it was confirmed that people had been killed there.  But I did not accept

18     the initial rumours because people were saying in town, there were

19     rumours that were being bandied about that certain people had been killed

20     and then I saw those same people in town afterwards.

21        Q.   Now you, yourself, could see dead bodies of killed Muslims and

22     Croats in the town; right?

23        A.   No.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 33385, page 226.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we do that.

Page 41006

 1             Can I just ask:  When later was it confirmed that people had been

 2     killed at Omarska?  When did you get this confirmation?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the war.  After the

 4     exhumations.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I, nevertheless, ask you a follow-up question.

 7             You say you saw people in town and therefore you didn't believe

 8     the rumours.  Now, those persons, and perhaps you can name one of them,

 9     was it reported to you that they had been in Omarska and that, for that

10     reason, you didn't believe the stories about persons being killed because

11     you saw that person later; or was it reported to you that that person had

12     been killed in Omarska and you didn't, therefore, believe the stories

13     because you saw that person alive later.

14             Which of the two?  And perhaps you could just mention one

15     example.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Generally speaking, concerning the

17     killings that occurred in the territory of Prijedor, Pecani, a settlement

18     that belongs to the town itself and Omarska and other areas belonging to

19     Prijedor, there were stories that were being bandied about and --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Listen.  I'm only interested at this meant in

21     relation to this question about Omarska.  Could you give me one name that

22     was -- that you saw later and ... because of seeing him you didn't

23     believe the rumours about Omarska?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Softic, the optician.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was he reported to you as having been in

Page 41007

 1     Omarska?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I was told that --

 3             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes, please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was told that he had come from

 5     Omarska, took all his equipment and moved to Split and that he gave money

 6     in order to be able to do that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Was he reported as having been killed in Omarska to

 8     you?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, if rumours are that people are killed,

11     why do you disbelieve those rumours because a person you knew who had

12     been in Omarska but not having been reported to have been killed there,

13     that you saw him alive?  Why would that in any way contradict that others

14     may have been killed there?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what to answer.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can give you my assumption.  They

18     probably were.  I was not there.  I cannot say anything with certainty.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's not an answer to my question.  Although

20     the beginning was.  You said I don't know what to answer.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Just one matter for the transcript.  Sir, you were recorded to

24     mention when you were discussing where you heard there been killings, you

25     mentioned a place name Pecani, P-e-c-a-n-i.  We see at line 20 of your

Page 41008

 1     OTP interview in response to the same question that you heard about

 2     killings in a place called Biscani, B-i-s-c-a-n-i, with diacritics in the

 3     appropriate places, of course.  That's where you heard people had been

 4     killed; right.

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   You heard they were Muslims and Croats; right?

 7        A.   The entire settlement of Biscani are Muslims.

 8        Q.   And you heard there were hundreds of people killed there; right?

 9        A.   No, I don't know.  I didn't hear anything about it.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I see we're at time for the break.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We take the break.

12             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 20 minutes past midday.

15                           --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 31041.

21        Q.   Do you recognise the people in this photograph?

22        A.   I do.

23        Q.   Who's the man on the far right looking away from the camera?

24        A.   I think it's me.  Yes, it's me.

25        Q.   And person immediately to your right hand with the moustache,

Page 41009

 1     who's that?

 2        A.   Slobodan Balaban.

 3        Q.   The man next to him in the tie?

 4        A.   Smajil Zahirovic.

 5        Q.   And the men next to him, on the far left?

 6        A.   Ibro Paunovic.  Or Ibrahim, I'm not sure.

 7        Q.   All four of you worked at RZR Ljubija before the war; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You and Mr. Balaban were Serbs, while Mr. Paunovic and Mr.

10     Zahirovic were Muslims?

11        A.   No.  At the time, I was a Yugoslav.

12        Q.   And Mr. Paunovic and Mr. Zahirovic, Muslims?

13        A.   I know about Zahirovic for sure, that he's a Muslim and as for

14     Paunovic.  We were good friends.  I believe that he is a Goranac by

15     origin.  A Gorani man.

16        Q.   What was his religious background?

17        A.   Believe me, I don't know which religion the Gorani people are.

18        Q.   Paunovic and Mr. Zahirovic, have you ever seen either of them

19     after the war?

20        A.   No.  Except for Balaban.

21        Q.   You mentioned earlier that some of your people were in Omarska.

22     The Chamber has received evidence that Mr. Paunovic disappeared from

23     Omarska in June 1992, P2303 and P5588.  Was he one of the people you had

24     in mind?

25        A.   Could you please repeat the question?  This photograph is

Page 41010

 1     distracting me.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, the last -- if you have someone on your

 3     mind, in what context.  Needs to be clarified.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   When you mentioned earlier in your testimony, or in the recorded

 6     portion of your interview that we played for you, that some of your

 7     people were in Omarska.  Was Mr. Paunovic who evidence indicates

 8     disappeared from Omarska in June 1992 and who you've never seen again,

 9     one of the people that you were thinking of, was one of your people that

10     was in Omarska?

11        A.   No.  Because Smajil Zahirovic was living at my place and I know

12     from that that he gone to Omarska.  That's why I said it.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tender the photograph.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31041 receives exhibit number P7626,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   Now, earlier today in the context of resources, company

20     resources, mobilised by the Prijedor SJB, you mentioned

21     Koricanske Stijene.  What RZR Ljubija resources were used for at

22     Koricanske Stijene was to dispose of the bodies of more than 100 Muslim

23     men who had been murdered by members of the Prijedor police; right?

24        A.   I don't know the number, but from the trials of some individuals

25     over Koricanske Stijene, I know they were members of the public security

Page 41011

 1     centre.  And about the machinery, I had explained that it was

 2     requisitioned by the public security centre.

 3        Q.   Now, again, you've answered parts of the question but not all of

 4     it.  What that machinery was used for was to dispose of the bodies of the

 5     people who'd been murdered; right?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 31036.

 8        Q.   You've seen this before.  This is a certificate for a pistol

 9     given to you by Simo Drljaca in appreciation for the co-operation and

10     assistance you provided to the Prijedor police.  You received this

11     pistol; right?

12        A.   Correct.  But, please, in my statement, in fact, in my evidence

13     in the Stakic case, I gave a more detailed explanation how that pistol

14     was gifted to me.  If necessary, I can repeat it.

15        Q.   If you can keep it to a sentence or two, I'd invite you to do so

16     now.

17        A.   I can do that even more briefly.

18             That pistol was given to me by the minister of economy of Serbia.

19     He sent it through Mr. Lovro, the head of the public security centre.  At

20     that time, I was at loggerheads with Simo Drljaca, and this man had come

21     from Novi Sad, told me that he had brought me this pistol.  I said I did

22     not have a licence, and he signed this document so that I can get a

23     licence.

24        Q.   Now, this isn't a licence.  It's a statement referring to

25     co-operation and assistance; right?

Page 41012

 1        A.   Excuse me, this is an explanation that would allow me to get a

 2     licence.  He could have written it differently.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you're right, and, at the same time

 5     you're, to some extent, misleading the witness because it clearly in the

 6     last line says that this document serves to get a registration for the

 7     weapon and that's what the witness is referring to.  And now to say it's

 8     not a licence, strictly spoken, it is true, but at the same time, it's

 9     confusing the witness and I invite you to refrain from doing that.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I take the point can we have 65 ter 33431.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, I see that the pistol was given

12     to the witness by a certain Mr. Lovro, as recorded, but this document

13     seems to purport to come from the Ministry of the Interior, Security

14     Services, Banja Luka public security station.  And it doesn't mention

15     Mr. Lovro as the giver of this present.  On the contrary, it is given in

16     gratitude for the witness's co-operation that he provided to the --

17     public security station.  According to the document.

18             So my question to you then is:  How does Lovro, Mr. Lovro come

19     into this?  It looks like it's a gift from the public security station.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.  I told you the whole path

21     this pistol followed before it came to me.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one small question.

24             You said he signed the document.  Do I have to understand that

25     this document is not signed by Simo Drljaca or ...

Page 41013

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I read to you this Mr. Lovro told you

 3     that he had brought you this pistol.  You said you didn't have a licence.

 4     And:  "He signed this document so that I can get a licence."  But that

 5     is -- you are then referring not to Mr. Lovro any further but to

 6     Mr. Drljaca.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No -- no, you are right.  It is

 8     correct because this is a document from the public security centre.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 33431.

11        Q.   Now this is a certificate also stating, "Grateful for

12     co-operation and assistance provided."  Also coming from Mr. Drljaca.

13     And this time the pistol's going to a man named Milorad Sipka.  He was

14     the director of the Eastern Mine, also known as the Tomasica mine in

15     1992; right?

16        A.   Correct.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tender the last two documents.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 31036 receives exhibit number

20     P7627.

21             65 ter number 33431 receives exhibit number P7628.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P7627 and P7628 are admitted into evidence.

23             Could you tell us, witness, had that same Mr. Lovro come to that

24     other person to give him a pistol?  Or don't you know or ...

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  At the time when I

Page 41014

 1     was at the public security centre, Mr. Sipka was not there.  I was not

 2     present at that transaction.  I don't know.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   And, sir, just before leaving Mr. Drljaca, you know that in 1993

 7     he was promoted to a position in the minister of the interior's cabinet;

 8     right?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 33383, page 5.

11        Q.   This will be another portion of your Stakic testimony.

12             You were asked:  "When you say that Simo Drljaca left and took up

13     a position as a deputy, did he go to Bijeljina at that time?

14             You answer:  "I think he was supposed to be based in Bijeljina,

15     his office should have been in Bijeljina.  I have information that he

16     spent quite some time in Novi Sad.  What was the reason for his stay in

17     Novi Sad, I really don't know.  But he would turn up in Prijedor, too,

18     and quite often."

19             You were asked:  "Was that a promotion or a demotion for

20     Simo Drljaca?"

21             And you responded:  "If a person is first the chief of the MUP of

22     Prijedor, and then leaves to take up the position of a deputy or an

23     assistant - I'm not sure what the official title of the position was -

24     well, that should be considered a promotion."

25             Do you stand by this portion of your Stakic testimony as truthful

Page 41015

 1     and accurate?

 2        A.   I must confess that this testimony was a long time ago, and I'm

 3     not sure whether he was a deputy or maybe a deputy of a representative,

 4     so I really don't know.

 5        Q.   Just to focus on the part I'm most interested in, does this

 6     portion of your testimony refresh your recollection that he was promoted

 7     in 1993?

 8        A.   I cannot say either yes or no.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, we'll include that in the portions for

10     which an exhibit number has already been reserved.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Only this page or also -- because I see that

12     on the previous page of what is in e-court now, that's page 4 out of 96

13     pages.  That there's more said about the position Simo Drljaca took up.

14     That's immediately preceding the portion you read to him.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Of course, we're happy to include anything the

16     Chamber considers relevant.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but just to better understand page 11758, I

18     think the introduction at page 11757, where it's described, "He was to be

19     the first man of Republika Srpska MUP with headquarters at Bijeljina."

20     That perhaps sheds some additional light on.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Having heard the portion that Judge Orie has reminded you of, of

23     your Stakic testimony, does that, again, refresh your recollection as to

24     what position he was to get in 1993?

25        A.   Thank you for giving me this opportunity.

Page 41016

 1             After he was in Bijeljina, he stayed in Novi Sad, and after all

 2     these events, he returned to his position as the head of the public

 3     security centre in Prijedor, if that is of any assistance.  That's

 4     correct.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The issue was whether Drljaca, to become the first

 6     man of the Republika Srpska MUP, with headquarters at Bijeljina, whether

 7     that refreshes your memory as to what kind of a position Mr. Drljaca was

 8     appointed to.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Can we have 65 ter 32871.

12        Q.   Now, this is a piece in Kozarski Vjesnik published the 6th of

13     November, 1992.  At the top, under the reference to Mr. Karadzic, we read

14     that -- we read the description that Kozarski Vjesnik is taking advantage

15     of the presence of numerous top civilian and military leaders of

16     Republika Srpska.

17             Now you know, don't you, that the Republika Srpska Assembly was

18     held in Prijedor at the end of October and very beginning of

19     November 1992?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And turning to page 2 in the English and on the left in the B/C/S

22     of page 1, it's the bottom here of page 2 in the English and the start of

23     the article reflecting General Mladic's quotes in the B/C/S.  We see

24     General Mladic is quoted.  Now you testified on direct that Mladic was

25     never in Prijedor.  Does this refresh your recollection that he was there

Page 41017

 1     in the fall of 1992?

 2        A.   No.  I don't know that he has been in Prijedor.  I repeated that

 3     umpteen times.

 4        Q.   And anyone who was in Prijedor at the end of October 1992 would

 5     have been able to see with their own eyes the devastation that had been

 6     wreaked on Muslim neighbourhoods, Muslim villages in the vicinity of the

 7     town; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 32871.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  32871 receives exhibit number P7629.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P7629 is admitted.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P3278.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Give the P number again.

15             MR. TRALDI:  3278, please.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I'll be looking for page 19 in the English; 17 in

18     the B/C/S.

19        Q.   This is a transcript of some interviews with Prijedor Chronicle,

20     including one with you.  At the end of your remarks in the middle of the

21     page in both languages, you say:  "I estimate that there is a high level

22     of understanding between us and the military, and especially good" --

23     sorry.  "Exceptionally good co-operation with the local leadership of

24     Prijedor municipality.  I do not think that Ljubija deserves to be

25     especially highlighted because it fits into the mosaic of joint efforts

Page 41018

 1     to create this new" - and there's a suggested translation of "system,

 2     which is our goal."

 3             Now do you stand behind what I've read back to you from this

 4     interview about the high level of understanding between RZR Ljubija and

 5     the military and the exceptional co-operation with the local leadership

 6     of Prijedor municipality?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, you personally knew the 43rd Brigade commander,

 9     Vladimir Arsic; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You attended meetings he organised; right?

12        A.   No.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 33381, page 21.

14        Q.   Now, beginning here at line 10 you were asked:  "Did you know

15     Mr. Arsic?  I'm not mentioning his ranks because -- his rank because the

16     rank changed."

17             You answer:  "Yes, I knew him."

18             You explain his positions in 1990 and 1991.  And you say:  "And

19     if you will allow me, having said that, I knew him.  I had opportunity to

20     attend meetings organised by him in my capacity as a businessman.  I

21     believe that he is a native of Serbia.  He was from Serbia.  He was

22     exceptionally -- I would like to use a word 'arrogant' but that is not

23     what would describe him.  He was domineering.  When he issued orders, he

24     did it in a very domineering tone."

25             And you add a few lines later:  "He just issued orders and he

Page 41019

 1     expected people to obey his orders and to deliver."

 2             Do you stand by the portions of your Stakic testimony that I've

 3     just read back to you?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   And you were then asked when we are talking about him we also

 6     mentioned the sentence which he used to explain to other non-military how

 7     things would develop from then on, and you relied:  "The sentence was

 8     things that he said, they would be.  That's why I said previously that he

 9     didn't put up with discussions.  I mean, yes, the discussion was okay,

10     but eventually, he had the last call, and things would be what he decided

11     them to be."

12             Do you also stand by that portion of your Stakic testimony?

13        A.   I do, but I want to add one thing:  Typical soldier.

14        Q.   Now aside from him, you also met with a lieutenant-colonel named

15     Radovan Rajlic in the 43rd Brigade; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, one of the things that needs further

18     explanation.

19             When first asked whether you attended meetings he organised, you

20     said no.  And then a portion was read of your Stakic testimony in which

21     you said you attended meetings he had organised.  You attended them as a

22     businessman.  Which of the two -- why -- why you first say I did not

23     attend; and in Stakic you said you did?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not attend meetings that he

25     had militarily with his associates but I attended meetings in restaurants

Page 41020

 1     that he had organised there, where we discussed the economy, the

 2     military, and so on.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you carefully listen, then, to the

 4     question before you answer it.  Because Mr. Traldi did not ask you

 5     whether you attended any military meetings but whether you attended any

 6     meetings he had organised.  And apparently it was mixed military and

 7     business meetings, as you explained later on.

 8             So, therefore, carefully listen to the questions.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   And you've previously testified that RZR Ljubija handed over all

12     its mining explosives to the army before the war.  That's the truth;

13     right?

14        A.   It is true, but I don't know if the term is -- well, it was in

15     May 1992.

16        Q.   And you also, at Colonel Arsic's request, gave the army geodesic

17     maps of the RZR Ljubija property; right?

18        A.   That was in 1991.  These are geodesic maps because we had a

19     service that handled that.  We had enough maps for the area of Prijedor.

20        Q.   And those would show which areas of the mines were working and

21     which areas were not; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   I'm going to step away from the 43rd Brigade for a second.  Can

24     we have 65 ter 01369.

25             Now this is a list of territorial maintenance resources approved

Page 41021

 1     by General Mladic for Operation Drina.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 2 in the English and zoom

 3     in on the left in the B/C/S, point 10, in both languages, we see Ljubija

 4     RZ or RZ Ljubija in the original.  Did the Ljubija RZR serve as a

 5     resource for the 14th Logistics Base for the VRS throughout the war?

 6        A.   We provided services to the army.  You can draw your own

 7     conclusion.  We maintained some of their machinery and they paid us

 8     regularly for that.

 9        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to ask you two very specific questions --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but could we first receive an answer to the

11     previous question.

12             MR. TRALDI:  I was just going to break it up into two specific

13     questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I leave it in your hands.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   First, providing services to the army including serving as a

17     resource for the VRS's 14th Logistics Base like we see in this document;

18     right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And second, did RZR Ljubija serve as a resource for the

21     14th Logistics Base throughout the war?

22        A.   I don't know of this term, logistics base.  I don't know what is

23     meant by that.  We did provide services to the military, that is to say

24     maintaining their equipment, yes.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Throughout the war?

Page 41022

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 01369 receives exhibit number

 5     P7630.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 7             The equipment which is listed here, that was not equipment that

 8     was provided by the mine, by the Ljubija mine, or did that also include

 9     any equipment that had been -- had been ordered to give to the military

10     by the mine?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know of this document.

12     I've explained before that on the basis of mobilisation, we did give some

13     of this machinery to the military and also in Prijedor, we maintained

14     some of their machines.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And maintenance of your own machinery which

16     was mobilised by the military, where did that maintenance take place?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the central work-shop in

18     Prijedor.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because you earlier testified that once you

20     had to -- you were demanded to give equipment, that they would take it,

21     take it elsewhere, and then upon return, it was yours again.

22             Now I do understand that some of your equipment but also some of

23     the original army equipment was kept in your premises for maintenance,

24     though still --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 41023

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- though still under control of the military.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that mean that your previous answer is not --

 4     is not accurate?

 5             Could you please answer my question whether, then, you withdraw

 6     your previous answer as inaccurate or ...

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, mobilisation of the

 8     mechanization of the Ljubija mines occurred from 1992 onwards.  Certain

 9     machines that were not ours but were military machines were maintained at

10     the central work-shop in Prijedor.

11             As for the return of our machines, they were maintained in our

12     central work-shop in Prijedor.  Nobody else had authority over those

13     machines while they were being maintained by us.  There were certain

14     bills that were sent for the services rendered, for the maintenance of

15     the machinery.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But your own machines which were mobilised - so

17     machines that did not originally come from the army but was your

18     equipment, your machinery - which were then -- I think you said

19     requisitions - I must say I ...

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Requisitioned, then it could be that being

22     requisitioned or being mobilised for army purposes that it would still be

23     in your garages for maintenance while still under control of the army?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assert that the answer is no.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If it was requisitioned or mobilised for army

Page 41024

 1     purposes where then was that equipment maintained and serviced?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mobilisation sometimes took a month

 3     or two or somewhat longer.

 4             When the machinery was returned, we would maintain it in our

 5     work-shop and then it would stay there.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   Sir, just to go back to one of your answers a moment ago

 9     regarding geodesic maps.  Now, in your interview you stated that you'd --

10     that Colonel Arsic had requested those from you at the beginning of 1992.

11     In your testimony a moment ago, you said 1991.  Do you grant now that it

12     may have been the beginning of 1992 when the request was made?

13        A.   I think it's possible that it's the end of 1991, beginning of

14     1992.  It's more than 20 years that all of this happened.  Don't expect

15     me at my age after all these years to be able to say exactly when.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P7385.

17        Q.   This is a --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you repeat the number.

19             MR. TRALDI:  7385.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's a P number.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

22        Q.   This is an annual report of RZR Ljubija dated December 1992.  You

23     ordered this report to be made; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Turning to page 3 in both languages, in the middle, we read --

Page 41025

 1     and in the English -- sorry, it's the bottom in the B/C/S.

 2             "Additional measures were taken to ensure general security in the

 3     enterprise and very close co-operation was also continued with the army

 4     Main Staff and the public security centre."

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Where are you reading from?

 6             MR. TRALDI:  In the English, it's the paragraph just below the

 7     capitalised words, "AUTHORITIES, POLICE and the ARMY," and it's the

 8     second half of that paragraph.

 9        A.   If thank you.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And the B/C/S the very end of the page.

11        Q.   Do you see that text, sir?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, your co-operation with the army was primarily with the

14     14th Logistics Base and the 43rd Brigade, as we've seen; right?

15        A.   I don't know.  The 14th Logistics Brigade?  This is the first I

16     hear of it.  I don't know what that is.

17        Q.   Now, it also says immediately before that that, already in early

18     June, only around ten days after the fighting in the town, the army and

19     police took over all direct securing of facilities, property and

20     persons."

21             Now during your examination-in-chief, you suggested that your

22     security guards just happened to be wearing military uniforms.  What your

23     report at the time says is the truth, that it was the army doing the

24     securing; right?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  I think that this is

Page 41026

 1     wrong.  I would again like to ask the Prosecutor where it says that, that

 2     it was the army that had secured that.  That is a misrepresentation.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  I read the English literally.  I understand the

 4     relevant B/C/S words - just apologising for my limited skills in the

 5     language - to appear at the end of the third line in the paragraph where

 6     it says [B/C/S spoken], which I understand to be the part translated as

 7     "army and police."

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it -- do you -- is -- you still take it that it's

 9     misrepresented?  Then ...

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think so, Your Honour.  With

11     your permission I would like to read out the entire sentence to the

12     witness.  It is the first sentence in the last paragraph in B/C/S.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's another part.  That was not the part quoted.

14     You can read it to the witness if it is of any relevance in

15     re-examination.

16             And, of course, Mr. Traldi is certainly aware that if by leaving

17     out another portion he would distort the gist of the text he is now

18     warned because he is aware that he shouldn't do that.  We'll wait for you

19     to see -- we'll first wait for Mr. Traldi to see whether he repeats his

20     question, as he did, and then, second, we'll hear from you in

21     re-examination.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC:  Okay.

23             MR. TRALDI:  I think we are referring to the same sentence.  And

24     so the simplest thing is to address it now.

25        Q.   Witness, if you see where the words [B/C/S spoken] appear at the

Page 41027

 1     beginning of the last paragraph in B/C/S, if you could just read aloud

 2     from there to the words [B/C/S spoken]?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. --

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that there

 5     is a problem with the translation again from B/C/S into English and I

 6     think that the meaning of the sentence has been completely distorted.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing you should then say, Mr. Stojanovic,

 8     is there is a translation issue here.  Leave it to that.  Don't tell

 9     whether it changes the gist of what is written or not.

10             Mr. Traldi asked the witness to read the original B/C/S version.

11     So, therefore, if you would have waited, then we'll see what comes out in

12     the English language.

13             Please proceed.

14             The witness is invited to read what Mr. Traldi invited him to

15     read.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Already in the beginning of the

17     month of June, that is to say, only some ten days from when the fighting

18     took place in town, complete direct security of buildings, property and

19     persons were taken over by the military and police.  Additional measures

20     were also taken in carrying out general security in the company but what

21     also continued was the very close co-operation with the Main Staff of the

22     army and the centre of public security."

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   I'll put a form of the question that I would have put to you

25     initially.  We haven't read in there anything about people who happened

Page 41028

 1     to be wearing military uniforms.  What we've read about is the army, the

 2     military, the police; right?

 3        A.   If you allow me, at the time in Prijedor there was at least 15 to

 4     18 armies.  Every village had its own army and --

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... what I asked you about is

 6     your report describing your security that you also testified about, I put

 7     it to you, inconsistently during your direct examination.  What we see

 8     here is the army, the military, the police, not people who happened to be

 9     in uniform; right?  Yes or no.

10        A.   You're not allowing me to explain the situation.  You mention --

11        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're invited to answer the question.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear the question.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the question.  It's about --

15     I can imagine that it's about inconsistency between what we read here and

16     what you testified before.

17             But, Mr. Traldi, please put it again to the witness.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   We read here in your report describing your company's security

20     that you also testified about, I put it to you inconsistently, during

21     your direct examination, what we see here is the army, the military, and

22     also the police doing the security.  There is no reference to people who

23     happened to be wearing military uniforms.  That's correct, isn't it?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Can you point me to the reference to people who happened to be

Page 41029

 1     wearing military uniforms in this report?

 2        A.   You mentioned the vice-president of the municipality, the man

 3     called Cigo and he had his own army.

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Please, we cannot yell at witnesses.  I heard

 6     this [Overlapping speakers] ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... Mr. Lukic, Mr. Lukic, only

 8     in exceptional circumstances, counsel who is not examining the witness

 9     should intervene.  The -- if there's any rule that there should be no

10     yelling, and I do agree that there should not be, that is valid for you

11     as well.  Because you were yelling at least as much as -- let me say, you

12     used the volume of your voice which was at least similar to, if not even

13     higher, than Mr. Traldi did.

14             Mr. Traldi, could you repeat the question.  And, Witness, could I

15     invite you to answer the question rather than tell us things that were

16     not asked.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  With regard to the sight

18     translation of the sentence that was provided, the sentence is ambiguous

19     in the original.  It can either be by or from the military and the

20     police.  Thank you.

21             MR. TRALDI:  I don't think that will change my question but if

22     anyone disagrees, I'd invite them to say so now.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   Sir, there's nothing in your report about your security, produced

Page 41030

 1     by your company, at your direction, referring to people who happened to

 2     be wearing uniforms.  It refers to the army, it refers to the military,

 3     and it also referred to the police.  That's the truth; right?  Yes or no.

 4        A.   I don't know.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have page 7 in both languages.  Sorry, can we

 6     have 8 in the B/C/S.

 7        Q.   Now, we see here a list of weapons and equipment provided to, on

 8     the right side, different war units.  We see the code 4777 for all of the

 9     weapons and equipment.  That's the code for the 43rd Brigade of the VRS;

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Turning to the next page in B/C/S, we see motor vehicles,

13     machines and equipment provided to different units.  We see a lot of 4777

14     again.  And some 8316, that's the quote for the 5th Kozara Brigade;

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And at the top we see 6817 and 5456, those are VRS brigades, not

18     based in Prijedor; right?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do we have the same page in English?

20             MR. TRALDI:  So the list of motor vehicles, machines and

21     equipment starts at the bottom of the page in English and continues to

22     the next.  But the specific numbers I was drawing the witness's attention

23     to, all appear on this portion, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 41031

 1        Q.   Do you recall what unit 6817 applies to?

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   But you'd agree with those numbers there that the RZR Ljubija was

 4     providing motor vehicles, machines and equipment to VRS units both within

 5     Prijedor and units from outside it; right?

 6        A.   The 43rd Brigade was constantly outside of Prijedor from 1992

 7     onwards.  The 5th Kozara Brigade from 1992 onwards was also outside

 8     Prijedor.  A very small part of machinery we provided to the air force.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I see we're close to the time for the break.

10     Your Honour, I am about to turn to a new topic and so if this is a good

11     point -- otherwise I do have one other document I could use quickly.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it would be better to take the break now.

13     Could you --

14             First of all, Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, could you give us an impression as to

17     how much time you would still need.

18             MR. TRALDI:  I think approximately half an hour, Your Honour, but

19     I can be more specific after the break.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00, because we take a

21     break of 20 minutes.

22                           --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 1.40 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:  To come back to the Chamber, I think half an hour

Page 41032

 1     may have been slightly ambitious.  I will be within my original estimate

 2     so certainly less than a full hour but it may be a few minutes more than

 3     30.

 4             In the interests of being as expeditious as possible, if we could

 5     have 65 ter 32870 on our screens.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Now, here on our screens, sir, at the top of the page in the

11     B/C/S we see an article titled, "Headed For Victory and Unity."  Refers

12     in the first paragraph to a meeting held in the great hall of the Ljubija

13     RZR and it's dated 31 July, 1992, the article.

14             At the bottom of the page in the English and the third paragraph

15     in the B/C/S we see remarks by Colonel Arsic, discussing the decisive

16     battle that is being fought for the Krajina.  Now, this is one of the

17     meetings that you attended with him and with other business and political

18     figures; right?

19        A.   I did not attend this meeting.

20        Q.   As head of RZR Ljubija, you wouldn't have attended a meeting

21     between civilian and military authorities and business people held in the

22     great hall of RZR Ljubija?

23        A.   I certainly did not attend because I would remember that meeting.

24     I have no memory of such a meeting.  I must have been away.

25        Q.   Were you in Prijedor at the end of July 1992?

Page 41033

 1        A.   Yes, I was.

 2        Q.   Now you lived in down-town Prijedor.  The Chamber has received

 3     evidence that about a week before this meeting, more than 100 detainees

 4     at Keraterm camp were killed in room 3.  You're aware of that crime;

 5     right?

 6        A.   I heard about it.

 7        Q.   And the people you heard had been killed in Biscani, that also

 8     happened about a week, ten days before this meeting; right?

 9        A.   Excuse me, some -- from 11 July or 12th until the 20th, I was in

10     Serbia.  When the corridor was opened up, I took my son to Belgrade.  It

11     could have been in that interval, when I wasn't there.

12        Q.   Sir, I hadn't asked about your travel at the time.  What I'd

13     asked about was the people that you heard had been killed in Biscani,

14     you'd heard that they were killed at ten days before this meeting; right?

15        A.   I heard about the killing in Biscani, but I cannot locate it in

16     time.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 31866.

18        Q.   This is a press article not yet translated from a website called

19     Balkan Transitional Justice, and we read, "Bosnia charges 15 Serbs for

20     Zecovi massacre."  And we see about five paragraphs down that the

21     defendants are specifically charged with killing 29 men and women in

22     Zecovi on July 25th, 1992.

23             Did you also hear that Bosnian Muslims and Croats had been

24     murdered in Zecovi shortly before the 31st of July?

25        A.   At that time I did not know.  But I know now after these people

Page 41034

 1     were arrested.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I would tender 65 ter 32870 and ask

 3     that 65 ter 31866 be marked for identification pending a translation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 32870 receives Exhibit P7631.

 6             65 ter number 31866 receives Exhibit P7632.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P7631 is admitted into evidence.

 8             P7632 is marked for identification.

 9             Mr. Traldi, I'm just looking at the 12 December, 12014.  The way

10     of introducing, pending prosecutions is uncommonly done by the

11     Prosecution through websites, rather we have -- now, the witness does not

12     contest that he heard about it, but I would certainly not encourage the

13     Prosecution to provide us with this kind of typically legal information

14     through websites where I've got no idea what weight to give to it.

15             But there was no objection.  It's just, perhaps, some guidance

16     that there are better sources to present this evidence.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   Now, sir --

20             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 33385, page 97.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   This is a portion of your OTP interview.  You say in the middle

24     of the page:  "From Prijedor non-Serbs, so I will use this terminology so

25     I avoid saying Croats and Muslims, from Prijedor non-Serbs were sent to

Page 41035

 1     the territory of Federation.

 2             "In the beginning, they paid to avoid going, to avoid leaving or

 3     going to Federation ... and later they paid to go."

 4             First, do you stand behind the truthfulness and accuracy of the

 5     portion of your OTP interview I've just read back to you?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   Second, the reason they were so desperate as to pay to leave was

 8     the crimes that some of which we've gone through today, the killings in

 9     Biscani and Zecovi that you've heard about, the crimes at Omarska, the

10     crimes elsewhere in Prijedor; right?

11        A.   You've explained it all to me.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Traldi, although are you trying to speed up,

13     you should slow down when you are reading in order to get a good

14     transcript.

15             MR. TRALDI:  I take the point, Your Honour.  And I'd referred in

16     line 14 to Zecovi and Omarska which weren't captured.

17        Q.   Sir, I want to turn now to graves on the RZR Ljubija property.

18     You know that there were mass graves at Redak on the central mine

19     property on Jakarina Kosa and on Tomasica on the eastern mine property;

20     right?

21        A.   The name is not Radak; it's Redak.  I've already explained that I

22     saw it in 2003 in a map that was shown to me when these places were

23     identified.

24        Q.   Now, you know people - at least some of the people exhumed from

25     Redak - were killed on central mine property in late July 1992; right?

Page 41036

 1        A.   Possibly.  I don't know the details, but it's possible.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have back -- and it's the version of 65 ter

 3     32665 marked by the witness.  I'm afraid my notes are incomplete.  D1347.

 4             If we can zoom in on the middle of the aerial image.

 5        Q.   Just to the left of the lake that we now see on the right, you

 6     know there's a mass grave in that area; right?

 7        A.   Well, if you help me, I don't know this light spot to the left of

 8     the lake, I suppose that is the deposit of waste from Ferox, judging by

 9     the shape.

10        Q.   And there's a -- there's a dumping-ground over there; right?

11     Used by the RZR.

12        A.   Ferox is an independent enterprise but it's in the immediate

13     vicinity of the mine.

14        Q.   Now, the geodesic maps you provided the VRS would have identified

15     this as an area where there was no mining going on; right?  The geodesic

16     maps provided to what was at the time the 343rd Brigade of the JNA that

17     was transformed a couple of months later into the 43rd brigade of the

18     VRS, under the same commander and the same deputy commander?

19        A.   The maps were given in 1991, and according to the law, geodetical

20     surveys are made every year to record any changes, and these maps were

21     made to reflect the activity and works.

22        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence that bulldozers and

23     excavators were being used by the VRS at this site between 20th and 25th

24     of July, 1992.  Now, when your company's records showed bulldozers

25     working for the VRS at dumping sites where no mining was going on,

Page 41037

 1     nowhere near any front line, what did you think they were doing?

 2        A.   I didn't think anything.  It's the grounds of Ferox.  They have

 3     their own machinery.  At that time, I didn't have any information about

 4     activity in that area.

 5        Q.   You acknowledge, though, it's possible the VRS could have been

 6     involved in the burials at Tomasica; right?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, could we in one way or another clarify

 9     the issue of, in your questioning, referring to company records showing

10     bulldozers working for the VRS, whereas the witness said Ferox had their

11     own machinery.  That's ... either by going to the records or by asking

12     further questions to the witness, but ...

13             MR. TRALDI:  Can we go into private session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 41038











11  Pages 41038-41042 redacted.  Private session.















Page 41043

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             Madam Registrar, could you assign a number to the document.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  P7633, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

16             Mr. Traldi, I'm looking at the clock.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I was just reminded of the same thing.  I will have

18     a few minutes tomorrow morning, probably about ten.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What about 65 ter 33385?

21             MR. TRALDI:  I'd called up the version marked by the witness.  I

22     had just done so somewhat awkwardly but the marked version is already in

23     D1347.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, that's a different one and I've been

Page 41044

 1     corrected.  33385 is the interview and the interview, the number has been

 2     reserved for excerpts but I wouldn't be seeking to tender the whole thing

 3     and so I uploaded the excerpts that we seek to tender at the end.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's both true for the interview and for the

 6     evidence given in the Stakic case.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, before we adjourn for the day, I'd like to

 9     instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in any way with

10     whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony given today or

11     whether that's testimony still to be given tomorrow.  And I'm quite

12     confident that tomorrow we'll not take that much of your time any

13     further.

14             We -- you may now follow the usher.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow,

18     Tuesday, the 10th of November, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

19     courtroom, I.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day of

22                           November, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.