Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 41404

 1                           Tuesday, 17 November 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before I invite the Defence to call its next witness, I'd first

12     like to put on the record that on the 16th of November of this year, the

13     Chamber was informed by the Defence that the Defence withdraws the 92 ter

14     motion for witness Mile Dmicic and will instead call the witness viva

15     voce, and that's what's done today through videolink.

16             Could we start testing the videolink to see whether everything is

17     functioning well.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.  We can hear you; we can see.  Can you

20     hear us; can you see us?

21             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, we can hear; and we can see

22     you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Is the witness already in the videolink

24     room or not yet?

25             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] No, Your Honours.  We will bring

Page 41405

 1     the witness in.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And could you also inform us who else is in

 3     the videolink room.

 4             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, apart from myself

 5     and the witness, there will be only the member of the ITSS, technical

 6     staff of the ICTY.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that information.  Could you

 8     escort the witness into the videolink room.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Dmicic, I presume.  Mr. Dmicic,

12     before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn

13     declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  MILE DMICIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           [Witness testified via videolink]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Dmicic.  Please be seated.

20             Mr. Dmicic, you'll first be examined in-chief by Mr. Lukic.

21     You'll soon see him on your screen.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

22             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dmicic, good morning.

Page 41406

 1        A.   Good morning to you too.

 2        Q.   Would you please be so kind to state your name for the record.

 3        A.   Mile Dmicic.

 4        Q.   Would you give us your father's name?

 5        A.   Simo.

 6        Q.   Mr. Dmicic, when were you born?

 7        A.   On the 9th of October, 1948.

 8        Q.   Could you please tell us what your profession is.

 9        A.   I have a degree in law -- or, rather, I have a doctorate in law.

10        Q.   So what is it that you do nowadays?

11        A.   I'm a professor of constitutional law at the law school of

12     Banja Luka university.

13        Q.   Before the war, the past seven or eight years, what did you do?

14        A.   I was an advisor, I was chef de cabinet.  I was acting

15     secretary-general and deputy secretary-general of the Presidency of the

16     Socialist Federal Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo.

17        Q.   Could you please give us the exact time period when you held

18     these positions.

19        A.   I held these positions from 1984 until the spring of 1992, until

20     the tragic conflicts in the region started.

21        Q.   Who did you co-operate with then, before the war, before the

22     conflict broke out?  Give us some examples.

23        A.   This involved several terms of office of the then-president and

24     Presidency of the Socialist Federal Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So

25     the last term of office that was from December 1990 until April 1992,

Page 41407

 1     that was a Presidency that had seven members.  They were elected in a

 2     free general election in October 1990.  It was headed by the president of

 3     the Presidency, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.

 4        Q.   Have you read the "The Islamic Declaration" by Alija Izetbegovic?

 5        A.   As a person who was employed in the state organs of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina over a longer period of time and as a person who has a

 7     degree in law and, of course, as a participant in certain professional

 8     endeavours that were not only something I had to do for my work but were

 9     also a subject of my interest in terms of my line of work, well, yes, I

10     have read it.

11        Q.   In Bosnia-Herzegovina, did people know of the existence of "The

12     Islamic Declaration" in 1990, 1991, 1992?

13        A.   As for "The Islamic Declaration," as a project and programme and

14     ideological document, and the time involved followed the well-known

15     Sarajevo trial of 1983 onwards, that is, this well-known Sarajevo group

16     that is linked to "The Islamic Declaration" and, of course, as for the

17     substance and orientation and programme-based character of "The Islamic

18     Declaration" is concerned, every well-informed intellectual was aware of

19     its content - and how do I put this? - it would be located in the

20     mid-19th century onwards; that is to say, everything that constitutes a

21     synthesis of thought and activity appearing in "The Islamic Declaration"

22     as a synthetic and comprehensive complete text of a projection, of an

23     Islamic orientation.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could the witness answer the question now?  Did

Page 41408

 1     people know of its existence?

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   There should be a two-fold approach to the matter.  Many of those

 5     who had this so-called Islamic radical concept of the state and society

 6     knew more about that.  Those who were in the sphere of politics and

 7     societal life that we call people of secular orientation, people who

 8     belonged to the option of the then-ruling party, as well as those who

 9     were in favour of an approach based on civil life and co-existence as

10     characterised by socialism as a social order, they knew about it to the

11     extent to which this constituted a general framework of knowledge.

12             Those who belonged to a collectivity of Islamic radicalism knew a

13     lot more and, of course, that was a document that we usually call in

14     everyday life and in professional life, a document of political,

15     ideological programme-based or some other character which will be the

16     basic approach to this document in the 1990s at the time when the

17     Yugoslav Federation was disintegrating.

18        Q.   Thank you.  So how did Serbs view this document in 1990, 1991,

19     1992?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before we continue, the 65 ter summary

21     gives me the impression that the subject matter for this witness is not

22     "The Islamic Declaration."  It exclusively deals with the situation in

23     the Republika Srpska time.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, we --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  There's nothing else in the 65 ter summary.

Page 41409

 1             MR. LUKIC:  We informed the Prosecution, I spoke with Mr. Traldi,

 2     that I will be dealing with "The Islamic Declaration" exclusively with

 3     this witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It's fine.  But is the Chamber to play a role in

 5     this courtroom as well or is it just between the parties and that we -- I

 6     mean, 65 ter summaries are also for the Chamber.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I apologise if we did not inform

 8     the Chambers.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MS. MELIKIAN:  Yes, good morning.  We were informed that the

14     Defence would be dealing with this document but not that they would be

15     dealing with it exclusively, just for the record.

16             MR. LUKIC:  If you want me to, I can deal with other documents.

17     That's not the problem.  But I don't have time, probably.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because I gave two hours.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, two hours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Dmicic, how did Serbs view the document

23     at the time?

24        A.   It's Serb community in Bosnia-Herzegovina, as the second largest

25     in terms of population, primarily has an approach to this document that

Page 41410

 1     is based on historic memory or, rather, knowledge that is based on that,

 2     especially the wars that happened most recently before the latest tragic

 3     events in the area.

 4             Of course, there were certain fears vis-à-vis everything that is

 5     contained in "The Islamic Declaration," especially messages that are in

 6     the domain of expressing views regarding co-existence and life together

 7     in a common state, that is to say, life of the non-Islamic population.

 8     So they viewed in the view it in the context of what would happen if one

 9     of the ethnic communities in Bosnia-Herzegovina were to --

10             MS. MELIKIAN:  [Previous translation continues] ... objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Melikian.

12             MS. MELIKIAN:  Yes.  The answer is going well beyond the scope of

13     Mr. Lukic's question.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although not an objection, but it's a general

15     occurrence this morning, Mr. Lukic.  Could you please take care that the

16     witness remains within the scope of your question.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I don't think that there is anything outside the

18     scope of my question, but it was a bit lengthy answer.  Can I be directed

19     which part is beyond my question, please, from -- my learned friend knows

20     that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it describes the document rather than

22     focussing on the view, unless you say please repeat what the content of

23     the document is.  But, Mr. Lukic, let's -- to some extent, it's also not

24     evidence which is usually given by a witness of fact.  Asking how the

25     community responds is, of course, either an expert question or requires a

Page 41411

 1     thorough laying of a foundation.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dmicic, what about the Muslims in your own

 5     environment, people that you worked with?  How did they view this

 6     document; for example, members of the SDA?  Could you tell us briefly.

 7        A.   We have to few the Islamic community in a two-fold manner.  There

 8     are those that we can identify as supporters of that, given the prefix of

 9     radicalism.  Then also there are the secular people, members of the

10     Communist party who also viewed with fear everything that was presented

11     from the context of the content of "The Islamic Declaration."

12        Q.   As for these ideas from "The Islamic Declaration," did Alija

13     Izetbegovic first present them in "The Islamic Declaration"?

14        A.   It was not the first time that these ideas were presented in "The

15     Islamic Declaration."  I said at the very outset that we encounter these

16     ideas in the world, in the mid-19th century, and then through difficult

17     developments.  However, he was the first one in 1979 to have formed this

18     in a consistent text.  And then, of course, the Sarajevo trial in 1983 -

19     I'm going to use a legal term now - this was in some way made public.  It

20     was made a public document.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on our screens D00557, MNA, please.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Melikian, could I ask you when did Mr. Lukic

23     inform you that he wanted to make "The Islamic Declaration" part of his

24     examination-in-chief?

25             MS. MELIKIAN:  Yes, it was on the list of documents circulated

Page 41412

 1     last week, and then I believe it was yesterday morning, although I can

 2     double-check, that he spoke with Mr. Traldi.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             Mr. Lukic, you know that for "The Islamic Declaration" we have a

 5     history there.  The Defence failed to identify portions which they would

 6     submit.  Yesterday some portions were read from that.  The same remains

 7     valid, so that is, just throw the whole of "The Islamic Declaration" in

 8     is not what the Chamber expects the Defence to do, so focus on specific

 9     portions.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  That's our intention, just those

11     entry questions.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have before us the document we'll

14     be discussing today.

15        Q.   But before that, since, as you told us, you were a participant of

16     the events that preceded the war, to the best of your direct knowledge,

17     how did Alija Izetbegovic see the need for preserving peace in

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19        A.   Mr. Izetbegovic, as we know, is the author of "The Islamic

20     Declaration" from 1979.  He became the president in 1990.  So one should

21     take into account that this is a period of just 11 or 12 years when he

22     came into a situation to be able to transform the context of "The Islamic

23     Declaration" as a programme document into a subject of his duties and

24     responsibilities.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness now answer the question, please.

Page 41413

 1             Witness, you told us a lot, but you didn't give an answer to the

 2     question.  How did Alija Izetbegovic see the need for preserving peace in

 3     Bosnia and Herzegovina?  That was the question.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in answer to that question,

 5     one can briefly say this:  When he came to the position of the president

 6     of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina and joining the process of

 7     searching for solutions for the entire territory of the Federation,

 8     wherein Bosnia-Herzegovina was one federal unit that he represented in

 9     those negotiations, we're talking, therefore, about his participation in

10     the negotiations that were going on at the time.

11             But there were three important options there.  The first one, to

12     put it most briefly, was creating a modern Yugoslav Federation, wherein

13     Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia and Bosnia-Herzegovina would remain,

14     considering that from 1993, the Bosniak people were living in that entire

15     region.

16             There was the second option that was later abandoned; namely, in

17     such a transformed Yugoslav state, to keep Slovenia and Croatia as well.

18             A later option was to pursue an independent state.  That option

19     corresponds to the content of "The Islamic Declaration," if you consider

20     that to be the shortest path between "The Islamic Declaration" and

21     searching for a peaceful solution to the Yugoslav crisis at the time.

22     Thus, Mr. Izetbegovic had a peaceful approach officially, but that was in

23     the first part.

24             In the second part, however, it was obvious that there was a

25     completely different orientation, when the Bosniak and Croatian options

Page 41414

 1     in looking for a solution for Bosnia-Herzegovina became closer together.

 2     That's when the other ethnic communities, that is to say, Serbs, were

 3     becoming discriminated against and outvoted.  There were, therefore, two

 4     conflicting options.

 5        Q.   Did Mr. Izetbegovic make any statements regarding peace and

 6     keeping peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7        A.   Yes.  Mr. Izetbegovic made a well-known statement regarding

 8     sovereignty and peace.  In fact, he made a statement about sacrificing

 9     peace for the sake of creating an independent and sovereign

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That is a very well-known truth.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I again have to urge you to keep the

13     witness linked to your question, because the first lengthy answer of

14     approximately three minutes wasn't an answer either to the question.

15     It's only now when, for the third time, specifically asking about any

16     statements, that the witness gives us a clue to what you asked him

17     before.

18             Could you please try to keep control.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Another introductory question:  What do you know

21     about the war past of Alija Izetbegovic?

22        A.   We can identify it best in one statement given to the television

23     when he says that he had been convicted twice; the first time in 1946 for

24     his participation in the Young Muslims Movement; and the second time, in

25     the Sarajevo trial in 1983.  Of course, the rest can be only discussed in

Page 41415

 1     the context of the tragic conflicts between 1992 and 1995 in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you tell us, to what extent the first

 5     and the second conviction had something to do with the war past of

 6     Mr. Izetbegovic?  Let's start with 1946.  Young Muslims Movement, was

 7     that related to the war?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly, because these --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you in one or two lines describe what it

10     had to do with the war.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, commonly known is the role of

12     the Young Muslims in the context of the Second World War, their

13     activities on the enemy side.  I think that is quite sufficient as a

14     fact.  Why?  Because the trial in 1946 qualified it.  And that's why he

15     was convicted and sentenced to three or four years, if I remember well.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Qualified it as what?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the affiliation of the movement

18     to the enemy side.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Now, the 1983 trial, what had that to do with the war past of

21     Mr. Izetbegovic?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can associate it as a

23     continuation of his activity and his work that is defined through "The

24     Islamic Declaration," which was written in 1979, according to

25     Mr. Izetbegovic himself.  And, of course, the Sarajevo trial pertained to

Page 41416

 1     the content and his authorship of "The Islamic Declaration," together

 2     with the group that was co-accused with him.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If I understand you well, it's you associating "The

 4     Islamic Declaration" with the war past of Mr. Izetbegovic and not

 5     specifically the charges brought against Mr. Izetbegovic in 1983 that

 6     links to the war.  Is that well understood?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In part, you are correct.  But I'm

 8     not linking up these two actions completely.  I am just saying that in

 9     terms of development through time, it is the progress of one kind of

10     thinking that will later appear in the 1983 trial discussing this

11     document.  It's a completely legalistic approach --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- actions and --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you've answered my question.

15             Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 3 in both

17     versions.

18        Q.   We have "The Islamic Declaration" before us.  We'll move through

19     the document and try to see the development of this idea.

20             I see in paragraphs 3 and 4 in both versions that Mr. Izetbegovic

21     says the whole Muslim world is in a state of turmoil and changes.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  We do not see the right page.  Interpreter's

23     note.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It seems, Mr. Lukic that the two pages are not

25     corresponding.  Yes.  Now we have corresponding pages.

Page 41417

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, it's page 3.  I asked for page 3.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Both page 3?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  I was just informed it's page 2 in English.

 4     Sorry.

 5        Q.   So it's paragraph 3 and the last sentence in this paragraph says:

 6     "[Interpretation] The era of passivity and inaction has passed forever."

 7             The next paragraph:

 8             "Everyone is trying to take advantage of this time of movement

 9     and change, particularly foreign powers, both from the east and from the

10     west.  Instead of their armies, they are now inserting their ideas and

11     their capital, and with this new mode of influence they are once more

12     endeavouring to accomplish their aim, to ensure their presence and keep

13     the Muslim nations in a state of spiritual helplessness and material and

14     political dependance."

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think the B/C/S is not on the right

16     page.  We move to the second page but this is still to be found on the

17     previous page, isn't it?

18             MR. LUKIC:  Not on this page.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I see that what you were reading is above

20     where it reads "China, Russia and the western countries."  Now, I'm not

21     that much of a B/C/S reader but "Kina and Rusija" sounds very much like

22     China and Russia.  So, therefore, I think we are on the wrong page.

23             MR. LUKIC:  No.  We are on the right page in B/C/S.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Now we are because we moved one page back.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Oh, okay.

Page 41418

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Dmicic, you've read this document.

 2     You've read this paper.  In your view, at the time when you were working

 3     with and for Alija Izetbegovic, how did he see the relations between

 4     Muslims and foreigners?  Do you have any personal knowledge?

 5        A.   One brief conclusion can be made from all this.  The basic

 6     substance of all this is fear and misgiving towards influence on

 7     processes going on in the Muslim world, whether spiritual unity will be

 8     achieved or not, the Islamic society, the Islamic order, and political

 9     independence, because the substance of this message, in fact, is who will

10     have custody of the Muslim world?  Who will have patronage over it?

11             In that sense, he maintained very intensive communication with

12     representatives of the international community, looking for an adequate

13     solution within the framework of the Bosnia-Herzegovinian crisis and more

14     generally the Yugoslav crisis, acting, of course, as the president of the

15     Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We could say that it was a

16     peace-seeking activity of the president.

17             There's just one more question that is raised there.  Which part

18     of the international community dominates in these contacts?  Of course,

19     major influence was felt vis-à-vis the countries of the Islamic world.

20     That is my statement.

21        Q.   [In English] Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If I look at the translation of the original, it

25     seems that it is not a complete translation or some lines are added.  If

Page 41419

 1     you look at the title, it's different.  There is an Arabic title.  I

 2     don't know what it is.  But we have in English two titles.  And then we

 3     have something it could be "Our goal, our motto," and then there's

 4     another line which is not translated.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  The first part of the title we can find on the

 6     previous page in B/C/S, Your Honour, below the picture.  So first two

 7     lines we would find below the --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  -- first page of B/C/S.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just wanted to draw your attention to the fact

11     that this translation seems not to be a translation by CLSS.  It is so

12     different in style, and when you read a portion into the transcript, it

13     was quite different how it was translated then, or the mistakes I saw in

14     the text itself of the translation.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And could I take you back as well to the line below

16     "Our goal and our motto," and that's what Judge Fluegge has drawn your

17     attention to as well, there is one line starting with "Bismillah" and

18     with an, what do you call it, exclamation mark at the end, that line

19     seems not to be translated at all.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I think that that's Arabic text.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whatever it is, but if you present this

22     document, I take it that you'd like to know what the -- the line starting

23     with "Bismillahirahmanirrahim" that's what I can try to -- what does that

24     mean?

25             MR. LUKIC:  I have no idea.

Page 41420

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you should not present this document if you

 2     have no idea and if you want to --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  That's what we have, Your Honour.  We have to present

 4     this document.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  You can ask --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Later on it will be checked.  It's not that we can

 7     present the document.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you present a translation, then it

 9     should be either a translation which is complete, accurate and tested, or

10     you draw our attention to the fact that you were unable to read certain

11     parts of it and that, for that reason, you'll further submit it for

12     clarification.  That's how you should deal with the matter and you have

13     done neither of them.

14             MR. LUKIC:  We can now -- we can propose parts of the document to

15     be admitted, so we --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  -- are not asking for this "Bismillahirahmanirrahim"

18     to be admitted.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you want this page to be admitted?

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And then half of it untranslated for us.

22             MR. LUKIC:  And some parts of the pages could be redacted.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is not redacted yet.  This is a problem.

24             MR. LUKIC:  It is not.  We will see at the end what will be

25     redacted and what will be proposed and offered for admission.

Page 41421

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we'll hear what you will tender or not,

 3     and please be aware that the Chamber will not -- either you read into the

 4     record certain portions.  If that's what you do, fine.  We've done that

 5     yesterday; we can do it again.  Or you tender any portion of it, and

 6     whatever portion you tender, please take care that we have a translation

 7     of that page.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             Now we need page 4 in B/C/S and page 3 in the English version.

11     In B/C/S version, we need paragraphs 3 to 5, and in English version, also

12     paragraphs 3 to 5.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Here, in paragraph 3, in "The Islamic

14     Declaration," it says:

15             "In this conviction we announce to our friends and enemies alike

16     that Muslims are determined to take the fate of the Islamic world into

17     their own hands and arrange that world according to their own vision of

18     it."

19             Next paragraph says that the ideas contained in the declaration

20     are not absolutely new.

21             And in the last sentence of that paragraph, it says:

22             "Its novelty lies in that it seeks to promote ideas and plans

23     into organised action aimed at their implementation.

24             "The struggle towards new goals did not begin today.  On the

25     contrary.  The history of this struggle already knows its shhada

Page 41422

 1     containing pages of the suffering of its victims."

 2             In his political activity, did Mr. Izetbegovic openly express the

 3     wish for conflict, or did he conceal that?

 4        A.   One cannot draw the conclusion concerning the public declaration

 5     of the basic substance that you spoke of.  Communication with the world

 6     and everything that changed within the quest for a solution to the

 7     then-Yugoslav and Bosnia-Herzegovinian crisis indicated that the spirit

 8     of this declaration is in the context of reaching an independent

 9     sovereign state of Bosnia-Herzegovina; that is to say, outside the former

10     Yugoslav Federation, regardless of whether it would be the entire

11     Federation or the rump Federation, as we called it, with the remains of

12     the former Yugoslavia.

13             It is important to recognise here that over 700 million people

14     who belonged to the Islamic world are probably expected to create a

15     community that will be a guarantor --

16        Q.   Mr. Dmicic, I do apologise.  Please.  My question was:

17     Mr. Izetbegovic, did he openly show that he was in favour of conflict or

18     did he try to conceal that?

19        A.   He did not express it or show it openly.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now take a look at page 5 in B/C/S, page 4 in

21     English.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before we move to another page, can we scroll

23     down in the B/C/S version.  I see that the footnote we see in the

24     translation is missing in the B/C/S version, and I have no idea where the

25     footnote I see -- yes, the penultimate line of the text.  But that is

Page 41423

 1     missing in the original.  I have no idea why the translation has

 2     additional information than the original.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Obviously somebody who was translating felt that it

 4     should be explained, what "shhada" means.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Somebody.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  We don't know who translated this document.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have discussed that already.  I just wanted to

 8     draw your attention to that fact.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  This document was first

10     distributed outside Bosnia because when it was printed it could not be

11     distributed in Bosnia and Former Yugoslavia, so probably was first

12     translated --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, is this a translation of the B/C/S

14     original or is it an English version which may deviate from the original?

15             MR. LUKIC:  As I could see it, this is a translation of B/C/S

16     original with some obvious additions.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which makes it a different version.

18             MR. LUKIC:  But it's not separate text.  The text that was signed

19     by Mr. Izetbegovic is translated.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just for my own clarification, do I understand

24     that what's written in B/C/S is what's written by Izetbegovic?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 41424

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And who then -- what is "Jumada al-Ula, 1390"?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  That's what he wrote.  That's how he counted years,

 3     in Islamic way.  This is year of 1390, according to the Islamic calendar.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you say this Islamic -- this B/C/S text has

 5     been translated here by somebody you don't know.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we see the next page in English, please.  But

10     stay with the B/C/S version.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  There we have the year, 1390 as well, but for one

12     reason or another, it's in the language used apparently.  Perhaps in

13     B/C/S that's a different wording compared to the English way of

14     expressing that year.

15             MR. LUKIC:  It's different spelling, same pronunciation.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Can we move now to page 5 in B/C/S and page 4 in

18     English, please.  We need paragraph 6 in B/C/S version and paragraph 3 in

19     English version.  Full text in English version from the beginning of the

20     row.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, it says here:

22             "Every non-Islamic programme may seem to be in contrast -- every

23     non-Islamic programme may seem to be close and within range of its

24     target, but for the Islamic world this is pure utopia, because these

25     programmes lie in the realm of the impossible."

Page 41425

 1             In your view, to what extent was Mr. Izetbegovic open to ideas

 2     that were not Islamic and based on Islam?

 3        A.   One must always bear in mind a completely wise and prepared

 4     political leader.  An Islamic order is possible only when one people, one

 5     ethnic community, has domination.  However, the essence of this is much

 6     broader.  It has to do with later deliberations in "The Islamic

 7     Declaration" about the possibility or, rather, impossibility of

 8     co-existence with non-Islamic people, a non-Islamic population.  That

 9     would be it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, when you are asking for the pages, we are

11     now at e-court page 4, hard copy page 5.  One of the problems is that

12     hard copy page 2 is missing at all in the English.  Earlier you referred

13     to the hard copy page numbering.  So it's a bit confusing, but I think we

14     are now reading from e-court page 4, hard copy page 5.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I was following e-court pages, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, earlier --

17             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know how that mistake happened.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Earlier you referred to hard copy pages.  Please

19     proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  We need again page 5 in B/C/S but now

21     paragraphs 7 and 8, and page 4 in English, paragraphs -- paragraph --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And the word "uvod" which appears on the top of this

23     page, is that translated or -- I don't know --

24             MR. LUKIC:  I cannot see it on this page in English.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, on the page that was still on our screens.

Page 41426

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the word "uvod" appears on top of the first

 3     page where the following text is, "Do we want the Muslim peoples to break

 4     out of the crisis?"  That's at least I see that the -- it's immediately

 5     following the year, which is in the B/C/S original, the previous page,

 6     and then the word "uvod" - I don't know what it means - but apparently is

 7     not translated.  Do you know what it means?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Introduction.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Introduction.  Okay.  Fine.  Well, this is not an

10     official translation, but at least I have now an idea what I'm missing.

11     Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  In the last page in English version on

13     this page, we will have to move to the next page when we finish this

14     part, and then in B/C/S version, it's somewhere in the middle of the

15     page.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] "History demonstrates one fact:  Islam is the

17     single idea which has been able to excite the imagination of the Muslim

18     people" --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Can we move in English to the next page, please.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's already there.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Thank you.  Top of the page then.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] "No other ideal, foreign to Islam, has ever

23     managed to hold sway in any meaningful way either in culture or at state

24     level.  All that is great and noteworthy in the history of the Muslim

25     peoples has been done under the banner of Islam.  Only a few thousand

Page 41427

 1     tried warriors of Islam forced Britain to withdraw from Suez in the

 2     1950s, while the combined armies of the Arab nationalist regimes are now,

 3     for the third time, loosing the battle against IsraelTurkey, as an

 4     Islamic country, ruled the world.  Turkey as a plagiary of Europe, is now

 5     a third-rate country."

 6             Further down it says:  "A Muslim can die only in the name of

 7     Allah and for the glory of Islam or flee from the battle-field."

 8             How did Alija Izetbegovic view Islamic countries that espoused

 9     western democracy?

10        A.   If one carefully analyses the content in that part, it is

11     understandable that one gains the impression that western democracies are

12     not being accepted because they spoil Islam.  Thereby, the very core in

13     the application of this content is that Bosnia-Herzegovina should be

14     organised as a society in which the interest of Islam would be protected.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Now we need page --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it's time for a break.

17             MR. LUKIC:  It's break time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes, and we'd

19     like to see you back after that.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you have now spent one hour on a matter

22     which was not announced to us.  It was chaotic, to say the least.  It

23     elicited expert witness where this witness is not presented as an expert.

24     To some extent, it's calling for an exiguous of texts rather than for

25     factual knowledge of the witness.  The Chamber expects you after the

Page 41428

 1     break to continue with the announced evidence which is about

 2     Republika Srpska and what the witness can tell us about that.  If any

 3     time remains at the end, that is, before you have consumed your two

 4     hours, then you still have an opportunity to continue this line of

 5     questioning.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I'm going to continue with "The Islamic

 7     Declaration."  If you want to prevent me from examining this witness, you

 8     can do that, I know --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

10             MR. LUKIC:  -- but he --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the examination of witnesses --

12             MR. LUKIC:  You are trying to prevent us from putting this

13     document into evidence from the beginning of this trial.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, this is my last warning:  If you

15     interrupt me again, you will have to ask co-counsel to come in to replace

16     you.  Is that clear to you?

17             Mr. Lukic, examination of witnesses is under the supervision of

18     the Chamber.  This was a non-announced 65 ter subject.  As I said before,

19     you're eliciting evidence which is not evidence elicited by a witness of

20     fact.  It is calling for exiguous.  Further, it is at a level of

21     relevance which is so low that the Chamber hereby instructs you to first

22     address the other matters on the 65 ter list, and if any time remains,

23     you can fill the remaining time to continue with what has turned out to

24     be, until this very moment, evidence characterised by what I said earlier

25     and, apart from that, presented in a chaotic way.

Page 41429

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic, think it over during the

 3     break.  This is our instruction.  We take a break and we resume at five

 4     minutes to 11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic, I briefly respond to what you said.

10             Page 25, line 5, you said:  "You are trying to prevent us from

11     putting this document into evidence from the beginning of this trial."

12             Mr. Lukic, this Chamber firmly rejects any such allegation.  We

13     invited the Defence to select the portions which it wished to tender into

14     evidence.  We had no follow-up on that.  This Chamber has never, never

15     obstructed in any way that you present a witness who will deal with "The

16     Islamic Declaration" but what you're doing today is to present - and it's

17     not for the first time - a B/C/S version of "The Islamic Declaration"

18     with another version in English which certainly not is a complete

19     translation.  You present this through a witness who is presented as a

20     witness of fact, although he's invited to give his opinion about many of

21     these things.  That is what happened.

22             This Chamber, not now, not in the past, not in the future, will

23     in any way, in any way make it more difficult for you to have "The

24     Islamic Declaration" in evidence.  But do it, present it, in the

25     appropriate way.  That's one.

Page 41430

 1             Second, I must admit that I missed the word on page 6, you said:

 2     "We informed the Prosecution, I spoke with Mr. Traldi, that I'll be

 3     dealing with 'The Islamic Declaration' exclusively with this witness."

 4             Now I do understand, I missed that word, "exclusively".  By the

 5     way, it also means that where you had not informed the Prosecution that

 6     you would exclusively deal with "The Islamic Declaration" that they had

 7     to prepare for what was still in the 65 ter summary, which is an

 8     inappropriate way of communicating, because the Prosecution would have

 9     saved its time by not dealing with the other matters where you

10     exclusively wished to deal with "The Islamic Declaration" but you only

11     announced, if I understood Ms. Melikian well, that you would deal with

12     it, not that you would deal exclusively with it.

13             I also am aware now that where you do not want to tender any

14     other evidence, that this is the only thing you have remaining, where I

15     invited you to deal with the other matters in your 65 ter -- found in the

16     65 ter summary; therefore, whereas, I had consulted my colleagues that

17     you could not go on as you did, that is, in chaos and presenting expert

18     evidence through a witness of fact, that remains valid.  And I -- just

19     give me one second.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Although we were not unanimous, we will give you the

22     full hour remaining, the Chamber allows you, within the limits I set, to

23     continue to examine this witness in relation to "The Islamic

24     Declaration."  At the same time we have great doubts as to whether that

25     can be done on the basis of this English version of the document.

Page 41431

 1             I leave it to that.  And we'll stop you exactly after two hours.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, if I just may add one thing.  CLSS does

 3     not translate books, so we have to use the translation we have.  They --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, whenever you seek the assistance of the

 5     Chamber, you get everything you need.  You know that.  Whether it's what

 6     other states should provide, whatever -- whatever is there.  If that

 7     causes you a problem, first of all, make clear to the Chamber in court

 8     that you're working on the basis of an English version which is not

 9     exactly the same.  You had not spent a word on it, let alone that you

10     would have asked us in advance to get that translation.  Whether we could

11     find, whether there is perhaps elsewhere a published English translation

12     which is more accurately following the B/C/S version, not on the day of

13     the testimony, in chaos, with a witness of fact.

14             I leave it to that.  You may proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to remind you of your guidance you gave

18     me on page 9 from line 5 that I should focus on specific portions, so

19     that's why I'm going through specific portions and all my questions

20     were --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But one of my concerns was not to elicit an

22     exiguous of this text from the witness.  That's for experts.  Ask him

23     questions which a witness of fact can answer.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 41432

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dmicic, my questions so far have been and

 2     will continue to elicit your personal experience and knowledge regarding

 3     the speeches, the actions, and the conduct of Mr. Izetbegovic while you

 4     worked with him.  The Chamber does not wish to listen to expert opinion,

 5     especially since you have not been announced as such, so please

 6     concentrate on your personal knowledge.

 7             Let us look at page 17 in B/C/S and page 23 in English, please.

 8     Second paragraph in B/C/S, last sentence.  The last paragraph in English

 9     and it continues on the next page.  Sorry, paragraph 2 in English.

10             This sentence reads, after a certain introduction:  "Whoever

11     rises against Islam will not reap anything but hatred and resistance."

12             I would like to know, were you ever present when Mr. Izetbegovic

13     threatened with terrorism?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you show us where he threatens with terrorism,

15     please.

16             MR. LUKIC:  It's paragraph 2, Your Honour, on this page, last

17     sentence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Which deals with hatred and resistance.  That's

19     terrorism?  That's the same?

20             MR. LUKIC:  No.  I'm asking this witness if --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you are leading the witness by drawing his

22     attention to this portion of the document and then translating and

23     relating this to terrorism.  That's leading, Mr. Lukic, and it's even

24     leading very much.  You could have asked this question without even

25     pointing to "The Islamic Declaration," because you're asking for the

Page 41433

 1     personal experience of this witness.  And then if you want to relate that

 2     later to the document, that's the non-leading way of introducing this.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] You've heard that I did not put my question very

 6     artfully.  Do you have any comment on this last sentence by

 7     Mr. Izetbegovic?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the microphone of the counsel be switched

 9     off.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you are asking me for an answer,

11     yes or no, if somebody rises against Islam, the answer can only be that I

12     have not had the opportunity to hear such public statements.  This could

13     perhaps be turned only in one context, that is so say --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The question is answered.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   You've answered my question.  You were not present.

17             Have you ever heard anything said by Mr. Izetbegovic?

18        A.   No, no, I haven't heard any such thing in public.

19        Q.   Thank you.  On the same page, 17 in B/C/S and 23 in English, the

20     last paragraph in English, the fourth paragraph in B/C/S, Mr. Izetbegovic

21     says in this paragraph, he talks about the liberation of Turkey from

22     Greece, the heroic resistance in Libya during Italian occupation, the

23     recent example of the battle against English over Suez, the war for the

24     liberation of Algeria, for the preservation of Indonesia, and for Islamic

25     influence in Pakistan.

Page 41434

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's on the next page, I take it.  Yes.  Please

 2     proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] What is your direct knowledge from talking to

 5     people from the Party for Democratic Action and the SDS and any

 6     conversations you might have had with Mr. Izetbegovic?  How did he see

 7     the struggle of other countries for Islam?

 8        A.   Since I worked in the Presidency, an organ that then represented

 9     our federal unit, there was no such talk during the sessions.  Whether

10     there was such discussions with international or national officials in

11     the Party for Democratic Action, I don't know.  I see this passage as

12     part of a tendency that occurred 16 or 17 times in the conclusion of the

13     Presidency, that young men from the Bosniak and Croatian communities

14     should not be sent to the Yugoslav People's Army.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The last part is not related to your question, but

16     if you have never heard Mr. Izetbegovic to express himself on either

17     Turkey, Libya, Suez, or Algeria and Pakistan, then you could wait for the

18     next question put to you by Mr. Lukic.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was just going to say to you, Mr. Lukic, you

20     just said to the witness he must try to answer your questions and you're

21     going to ask questions of fact not opinion.  Your last question was how

22     did he see the struggle of other countries for Islam?  You are seeking

23     his opinion, how he sees --

24             MR. LUKIC:  If he heard him telling --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's a different question.  How did he see is

Page 41435

 1     one thing; have you ever heard him say something is quite another.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  But at --

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're asking for fact.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  But at least his answer was artful.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm talking about your question.  Okay.  Maybe

 6     sure that your questions are formulated in such a way that you elicit

 7     facts from the witness.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] So we continue on page 17 in B/C/S and page 24

13     in English, in e-court.  In the B/C/S version, it's the last paragraph;

14     in the English, it's the second one.

15             It says:  "The clear feelings of the Muslim masses need a thought

16     that would move them and direct them."

17             The last sentence in this paragraph says:  "That can only be the

18     Islamic thought."

19             What did you see?  In which way did Mr. Izetbegovic, as the

20     number one man of the largest Muslim party, convey messages and govern

21     that part of the population of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22        A.   The specific characteristic that appears in this, namely, when a

23     certain person is, at the same time, the presiding member of a state

24     organ and the leader of a political party - in this case, the SDA - can

25     actually indicate that within the entire life of the republic, through

Page 41436

 1     the media, through political gatherings, through the involvement of

 2     certain religious organs and individuals, through changes in general

 3     conduct, through changes in language that already became customary in

 4     communicating with the Islamic world, also having the work of state

 5     organs stopped during religious holidays, perhaps in that context it is

 6     possible to give thought to the answer that this question requires.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Paragraph 3 in the English version, and we need --

 8     and we need page 18 in B/C/S.  The last paragraph in the B/C/S version on

 9     this page.  In the first paragraph, we have the introduction and then the

10     last one says:

11             "There is only one way out.  The creation and gathering of a new

12     intelligentsia which thinks and feels in an Islamic way.  This

13     intelligentsia would then hoist the banner of the Islamic movement and,

14     together with the Muslim masses, start action for its implementation."

15             What did you see in practice?  What happened in practice that

16     could be reflected from this part of "The Islamic Declaration"?

17        A.   At the outset, I said that the impression is two-fold.  Within

18     the population and within the intelligentsia, the situation was as

19     follows:  There was a certain part of members of the academic community

20     or elsewhere in terms of Islamic feelings and thoughts, as the

21     declaration says, but perhaps here it primarily has to do with the

22     following:  Already then in terms of public speech, in terms of the

23     media, publishing, and, of course, particularly through the activity of

24     religious communities or, rather, the religious community of that people,

25     it is something that we could call action, term it action, aimed at

Page 41437

 1     setting up an Islamic movement and order in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 2             An analyst from the place where I worked can be placed within the

 3     context of this part of my answer.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a follow-up question.

 5             Sir, what is the name of this analyst you are referring to?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm speaking in general terms, that

 7     is to say, carrying my own impressions.  Also following headlines, titles

 8     of books, not to go into all of that, or headlines in newspapers and what

 9     leaders said -- I do apologise.  They --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to interrupt you because I just asked you

11     for a name.  You said it is general observation.  We are not so much

12     interested in general observations but in facts.  And, therefore, I would

13     like -- if I understand you correctly, you were referring to newspaper

14     articles, headlines and the like, and that is the basis of your knowledge

15     for answering the last question of Mr. Lukic.  Is that correct?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and I stand by that.  Thank

17     you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             This is not really what I would like to know about.  Your

20     question, Mr. Lukic, it was, what happened in practice?  And this is not

21     an answer to your question.

22             MR. LUKIC:  It is not.  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dmicic, what happened in the media amongst

24     the top people in the media?  Were there any changes at the helm at the

25     time?  What happened?  Sarajevo Oslobodjenje.

Page 41438

 1        A.   It is hard now to go back to the identification of individual

 2     names.  However, there are three main political parties that appeared on

 3     the scene then.  Of course, since they are protagonists of power, then in

 4     the public media, in publishing houses, in institutions that are of

 5     public interest, each and every one of them wanted their own people to

 6     come to the helm.  Now --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I stop you again.  It goes exactly in the

 8     same direction as we earlier said it should not go.

 9             Do you know of any change, other people coming to the helm,

10     where, when, who?  If you could tell us, we'd be interested to hear.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot identify names.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, next question, please.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             Can we see page 19 in B/C/S and page 25 in English, please.

15     [Interpretation] Second paragraph in both versions.

16        Q.   We see what is written there.  I quote:

17             "The briefest definition of the Islamic order defines it as the

18     unity of religion and law, upbringing and power, ideal and interest, the

19     spiritual community and the state, willingness and force."

20             Did you have an opportunity to see whether this was being carried

21     out in practice; and, if so, in which way.

22        A.   My statement in relation to your question should be viewed in the

23     context of the duties I carried out in the Presidency of the Socialist

24     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was not a parliamentary organ that

25     proposed bills, as well as other measures that have to do with the

Page 41439

 1     definition of Islam as an order and its implication, for example, in the

 2     field of legislation, that was passed at the time and that was in force.

 3     Because this period --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness.  Witness, I stop you there.  I'll stop you

 5     there.

 6             Could you give us facts which, in your view, are an expression of

 7     what was just read to you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the very definition that

 9     appears here, the unity of faith and law, and not to go into all the

10     rest, says --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I was asking about facts.  Could you please first

12     give us the facts you have on your mind, and then tell us how and why you

13     consider them to be an expression of what is written here in relation to

14     the definition of the Islamic order?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is hard to give an answer to

16     that question, both in terms of the time involved, the functioning of the

17     Presidency, when I was carrying out certain duties there.  It is possible

18     to present some of the facts that would be an answer to this question in

19     terms of identifying facts.  I'm speaking about a general approach.

20     Probably --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness.  Witness, give us facts.  That's what I'm

22     asking are you for, not further explanation of why it is difficult or why

23     you, nevertheless, rather than giving facts would rely on general

24     observations.

25             Could you please give us the facts which reflect what is written

Page 41440

 1     here, in your view?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is hard from the context of this

 3     question to give the facts that you are speaking of.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then listen carefully to the next question

 5     Mr. Lukic will put to you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will try.

 7        Q.   Did Alija Izetbegovic have a permanent position regarding what

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina should look like?  Should it be divided, centralised,

 9     non-centralised?

10        A.   These are three approaches.

11        Q.   Please tell us about the approaches that he had.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I mean Alija Izetbegovic.

14        A.   Yes.  The first one had to do with remaining within the rump

15     Yugoslav Federation, that is to say, an all-embracing, united

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The second approach was the creation of --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  He answered that in the first session of today,

18     the three versions.  You should put another question to the witness.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   When speaking of Bosnia-Herzegovina, what was his position?  Did

21     he have one?  Was it a constant one?  Should it be centralised,

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina?  And later on, when the war started, there were no

23     more talks about remaining in Yugoslavia.

24        A.   He changed his positions.

25        Q.   Was it supposed to be divided?

Page 41441

 1        A.   All the time in the public and vis-à-vis the international

 2     community -- well, one should understand the crisis and solutions of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Bosnia-Herzegovina appears within the borders of the

 4     former Yugoslav state, the so-called avnoj borders --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is not an answer to your question, please.

 6     The witness is not answering your question.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Dmicic, you've heard this.  Do you have any knowledge as to

 9     what Alija Izetbegovic's views were after the war broke out and did he

10     stick to one position?

11        A.   No.  Following the processes happening in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in

12     the beginning, Bosnia-Herzegovina as a federal state, then later on,

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina divided into these three state-forming entities, and

14     within that, we have his government in fact, that is to say, factually.

15     It was only part of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  One should have that knowledge

16     within the framework of this question and the answer that is now being

17     discussed.

18        Q.   So Alija Izetbegovic, was he in favour of a centralised

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina all the time?  Was he in favour of a divided

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina all the time?  Or did he change his positions?

21        A.   Within the framework of his view, all three approaches emerged.

22     However, one must bear in mind that authority was exercised over a part

23     of Bosnia-Herzegovina once it was divided after the tragic conflict

24     started.  So that is where the order that we are discussing prevailed.

25     That is where these units were that were created --

Page 41442

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness is not answering your question.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh well ...

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me give it another try.

 4             You said after the war broke out.  After the war broke out, was

 5     Mr. Izetbegovic, was he in favour of a division or was he in favour of a

 6     united Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 7             Witness.  Witness, could you please answer the question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I emphasise that throughout the war

 9     until the Dayton Accords, Bosnia-Herzegovina functioned as three states.

10     That was in practice; whereas, Bosnia-Herzegovina was internationally

11     recognised as a state.

12             So Mr. Izetbegovic held out himself to be in the international

13     community a representative of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The purpose was to

14     keep Bosnia-Herzegovina whole, including the tendencies we've already

15     discussed.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, to make the best out of it, Mr. Lukic, you

17     could understand the answer to be that Mr. Izetbegovic was in favour of

18     keeping it as a whole, but there are other tendencies mentioned as well,

19     which are not entirely clear to me.

20             Let's try to get the questions so focussed that there is at least

21     a chance that after a few introductions that we get an answer.

22             And could you please start answering the question instead of

23     giving introductory remarks.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have page 19 in B/C/S and 25 in English,

Page 41443

 1     please.  Are we on this page, the same page?

 2             [Interpretation] In the B/C/S, it's highlighted in the fourth

 3     paragraph, and in English, it's the last paragraph.

 4        Q.   It says:  "History does not know a single truly Islamic movement

 5     that was not, at the same time, a political movement as well."

 6             Do you have any comment from practice?  Have you seen such

 7     conduct in practice, while you worked in the Presidency of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  What conduct, Mr. Lukic?  The line reads that

10     history has not seen ever that.

11             Are you asking the witness whether he observed any facts in

12     practice which would match with this observation?  Is that -- that's

13     different question from the one you asked.

14             So could you give us any fact you observed in practice which

15     would match with what is given here as a rather general statement about

16     history and a political movement -- Islamic movement being a political

17     movement at the same time?  Any facts that you could match with that?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If one accepts the fact, my

19     impression and my knowledge is just as I said before.  We are talking

20     about carrying out in parallel political and statesman's functions,

21     pursuing the ideas of "The Islamic Declaration" in his political activity

22     and in his activity as a statesman.

23             As for facts, it is difficult to speak in such terms.  This is a

24     programme document.  This is an ideological platform for political

25     activity, and the activity was just beginning, in the early days of the

Page 41444

 1     conflict, while the joint Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina still

 2     functioned.  The war lasted three or four years.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- after the Dayton Accords even --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I interrupt you again.  If you are talking

 6     about activity, what activity do you have on your mind which would match

 7     with this generally phrased statement in "The Islamic Declaration"?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We could mention, for instance, one

 9     of his speeches, if I remember well in Bihac, which was along the lines

10     that:  All this will be translated into practice from "The Islamic

11     Declaration" and that a large number of young people stand behind it,

12     prepared to put this programme into practice.  You can find the

13     appropriate headlines or titles in this field.  It was a huge output from

14     the Party for Democratic Action and a large number of authors whom I

15     won't mention now.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you have -- well, "answered the question" is

17     perhaps a bit too much, but you at least told us that he promulgated the

18     same ideas during a speech in Bihac, and that's a fact, a speech in

19     Bihac, although not facts which match exactly with what was written.

20             Next question, please, Mr. Lukic.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have one question to the witness.

22             When did Mr. Izetbegovic deliver this speech?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the date, but it

24     was -- could it be the 1st of April, 1990?  That can be checked.  It's in

25     the book published by the Party for Democratic Action, a collection of

Page 41445

 1     statements and speeches by the president.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  You have answered the question.

 3             Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             Can we have page 21 in B/C/S and 28 in English.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] We see the heading:  "Islam is not just a

 7     religion."

 8             In B/C/S, it's page 26 and page 35 in English where

 9     Mr. Izetbegovic speaks about the striving of all Muslims to unite into

10     one community, one single community.  In English, it's paragraphs 1 to 3.

11     In paragraphs also 1 and 3, in the third, it says:  "One community is" --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter has not found this passage yet,

13     please.

14             MR. LUKIC:  It's the last paragraph before "property."  "Islam is

15     the first ..."

16             And the last sentence in this paragraph, I would read in B/C/S

17     now.

18             [Interpretation] "Islam is its idealogy and pan-Islamism its

19     politics ..."

20             MR. LUKIC:  And now page 47 in B/C/S and 59 in English, please.

21     We need first paragraphs in both versions.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] In the first sentence already, we see

23     "Pan-Islamism and Nationalism" is the heading, and the first

24     paragraph begins:

25             "In one of the arguments for the Islamic order today, we said

Page 41446

 1     that the tendency to gather together all Muslims in Muslim communities in

 2     the world was a natural function of the Islamic order.  In today's

 3     circumstances, this striving means a struggle to create a great Islamic

 4     Federation from Morocco to Indonesia, from tropical Africa to Central

 5     Asia."

 6             Did you have occasion in reality to see with which countries

 7     Mr. Izetbegovic created the closest ties and relations?

 8        A.   I can say that the largest number, from what I managed to find

 9     out working in the Presidency, the largest number of ties were with

10     countries of the Islamic world.  But in the Islamic Federation, reference

11     is made to creating a federation.  That means countries which do not need

12     to be territorially linked.  This was a problem --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The question was with which countries he created

14     the closest ties.  Please name the countries.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said mainly the dominant

16     countries of the Islamic world at the time, from Indonesia to the

17     Middle East.  Those are the countries where Mr. Izetbegovic spent some

18     time working in certain companies of Bosnia-Herzegovina --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To a certain extent, now you have answered the

20     question.

21             Please, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at page 22 now in B/C/S

23     and 29 in English.  In B/C/S, it's the second paragraph; in English, it's

24     the last one.

25        Q.   It reads:

Page 41447

 1             "The first and foremost of these conclusions is certainly the

 2     conclusion about the incompatibility of Islam with non-Islamic systems.

 3     There can be neither peace nor co-existence between the Islamic faith and

 4     non-Islamic social and political institutions."

 5             This is an oft-quoted passage.  I'm certain that you've heard it

 6     before.

 7        A.   Essentially this is a striving for domination.  In the

 8     circumstances of Bosnia-Herzegovina, such domination was possible only

 9     with --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, the question was --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There was no question.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  There was no question, as a matter of fact.

13     Mr. Lukic said:  "This is an oft-quoted passage.  I'm certain that you've

14     heard it before."  That's an assumption.  Fine.  Do you seek affirmation

15     of that assumption or would you like to add a question?

16             MR. LUKIC:  I would like to add a question.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please do so.

18             MR. LUKIC:  The gentleman started to respond so I kept silent.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  You just stopped speaking, Mr. Lukic.  You

20     didn't put a question to the witness.  But you now do.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   So, Mr. Dmicic, were there, in practice, any attitudes towards

23     the army, the state, the institutions that would follow these lines?

24        A.   If you mean attitude towards institutions, it was about

25     domination in parliamentary decision-making.  It's about the attitude

Page 41448

 1     towards young Bosniaks joining the Yugoslav People's Army.  It's about a

 2     general striving to create an independent and sovereign state.  Because

 3     we are talking about 1992, a period when the circle of Yugoslavia's

 4     breakup was full and there began a search for solutions to the internal

 5     reorganisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in terms --

 6        Q.   Just a moment.  The Party for Democratic Action, that is to say,

 7     the party of the Bosniak people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, did it create its

 8     own army before 1992?

 9        A.   Yes, they did.  It's the Green Berets --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, why do you ask a leading question?

11             MR. LUKIC:  It's already in evidence in this case, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why do we need to answer the question to --

13             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation].

14             MR. LUKIC:  I already asked attitude toward military or toward

15     state or ...

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ask him when was the SDA formed.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

18        Q.   You've heard this, Mr. Dmicic.  Do you know when the SDA was

19     established?

20        A.   I think it was in 1989, one year before the multi-party elections

21     in 1990.  By that time, all the national parties were formed because they

22     were all present at the multi-party elections in September 1990.

23             Just after returning from --

24        Q.   Which one was founded first?  Which national party was formed

25     first in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 41449

 1        A.   The SDA, that of the Bosniak people; then the HDZ, the party of

 2     the Croatian people; and then the SDS.  That was formed in July of the

 3     previous year and was then was able to participate in the multi-party

 4     elections in 1990.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, although that seems to be a very

 6     repetitious of seeking of evidence, I think the order in which the

 7     parties were formed, I think we've heard it five, six, or seven times.

 8     Unless there's any specific matter.  The Chamber has considered how to

 9     proceed.  You'll have 15 minutes after the break.  Strictly.  Not one

10     minute more.  We'll take a break.  We'll resume at quarter past 12.00 and

11     you have until 12.30 to conclude your examination-in-chief.

12             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

13                           --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.14 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, your last 15 minutes starts now.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             We need page 22 in B/C/S and 29 in English version from this

18     document, please.  In B/C/S, it's paragraph 2.  I will read in B/C/S the

19     bolded version.  In English, it's the fifth line from the bottom of the

20     page.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] So the second part in bold letters in B/C/S

22     says:

23             "By claiming the right to order its own world itself, Islam

24     obviously excludes the right or possibility of action on the part of any

25     foreign idealogy in that area."

Page 41450

 1             Do you have any comment from your own practice?

 2        A.   If Islam is an integrated system of belief, the essence of the

 3     impression pertains to the following:  Activity was identical in a way in

 4     the Presidency --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

 6     microphones please be switched off.  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We said already at the beginning it

 8     is this unity of worldly life and religious life in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you.  We are in a hurry so I'm going to skip a few things.

11             Let us look at page 43 now in the B/C/S version and page 55 in

12     the English version.

13             It is Islamic governance that is dealt with here.  We need

14     paragraph 3 in B/C/S and it's the last paragraph in the English version.

15     This is what it says here:

16             "The Islamic movement should and can start to take over power as

17     soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough to be able not only

18     to topple the existing non-Islamic government, but also to build up a new

19     Islamic one."

20             How was this viewed in pre-war life in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21        A.   During its pre-war life, Bosnia-Herzegovina was an equitable part

22     of the Yugoslav Federation, a federal unit with three state-forming

23     peoples with equal rights, introducing a philosophy, morality, code of

24     conduct, a new life, if I can put it that way, within Bosnia-Herzegovina,

25     on the basis of the proclamations declared in this declaration are an

Page 41451

 1     intimation of creating a Bosnia-Herzegovina as an independent state.  I

 2     point that out once again, that it had already gone through all of those

 3     stages.  Building a new government means in temporal terms to wait and

 4     create conditions to ensure the domination of one or more peoples

 5     involved in a joint effort in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So we can only view

 6     this in temporal terms, that is to say, advocating the creation of

 7     conditions for toppling the existing system and creating a new one, of

 8     course, that would be based on the premises of this document.  That is

 9     what I have to said.

10        Q.   What about the referendum and the referendum question regarding

11     the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Was there a particular position

12     on that?

13        A.   The referendum question is one of the worst points in the quest

14     for a solution in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Had the compromised solution

15     refused by Mr. Izetbegovic been adopted, then probably there wouldn't

16     have been a war and --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, this is opinion evidence rather than anything

18     else, and apart from that, the facts, I think, if the witness would come

19     to that --

20             MR. LUKIC:  He knows the facts.  He is trying to explain.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you would not have interrupted me.

22     The facts have reached us several times.  Just from the top of my head, I

23     can tell you it was the 15th of October and that was the assembly session

24     which was then part left, et cetera.  All those facts, I think, are well

25     presented in the evidence.

Page 41452

 1             The witness started with giving an opinion.  If you had asked for

 2     facts, then I might have said, isn't this repetitious evidence.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   What action did Mr. Izetbegovic take after the war in relation to

 6     the Dayton Agreement?

 7        A.   The Dayton Peace Agreement stopped the war and ensured the

 8     establishment and functioning of the system of the state of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina since the parties were not quite satisfied with the

10     solution, but, of course, the solution did provide for peace and a

11     continuation of normal life.  As the Dayton Accords --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I interrupt you again.  The question was

13     what action did Mr. Izetbegovic take after the war in relation to the

14     Dayton Agreement?  What action did he take; could you please tell us?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a single sentence, continuing

16     the struggle for a centralised unitary Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That is my

17     answer in a single sentence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Did he write any submissions; and, if so, to

22     whom?  Did he involve the constitutional court of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23             Can you hear me?

24        A.   I can.

25        Q.   Did Mr. Izetbegovic involve the constitutional court in the

Page 41453

 1     resolution of certain matters, and what happened after decisions were

 2     made?  Could you please briefly just describe this to us.

 3        A.   Even today, after 15 years, once the constitutional norm was no

 4     longer there concerning the possibility of a different --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'll stop you again.  I'll interrupt you

 6     again.  Although the question as was leading as could be, but I can ask

 7     you a leading question:  Did he involve the constitutional court of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Did he, or did he not?  After the war.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, because the Presidency

10     of Bosnia-Herzegovina as --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- an organ which --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you don't have to explain why.  Witness, you

14     don't have to explain why.  You confirmed --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I want to say --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Under the circumstances, I can interrupt you.

17     You cannot interrupt me.

18             You have confirmed - and that was the question - that he involved

19     the constitutional court.

20             Listen to Mr. Lukic's next question.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Was the constituent quality of peoples discussed?

23        A.   Only two years after Dayton, Mr. Izetbegovic made a submission to

24     the constitutional court regarding the constitutional or constituent

25     quality of the peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that led a situation

Page 41454

 1     throughout the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, although the entities

 2     espoused in the Dayton Accords with their subjectivity and identity were

 3     there as they were before the Dayton Accords.  That would be it.

 4        Q.   Was this changed subsequently?  Were there any constitutional

 5     amendments?  What happened?

 6        A.   Immediately after that, the decision of the constitutional court

 7     that were made up until 2000, the High Representative, by implementing

 8     this decision, passed tens of amendments regarding the entities.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the end of

10     the sentence.

11             MR. LUKIC:

12        Q.   The interpreters didn't hear the last part of your answer so

13     please repeat it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this way, the High

16     Representative in 2002 passed tens of constitutional amendments and fully

17     implemented the decision of the constitutional court of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina, thus ensuring the constituent quality of all three

19     peoples in the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20        Q.   Just one more question.  Do you know in which way and to what

21     extent Mr. Izetbegovic was involved in bringing in Mujahedin from Arab

22     countries in order to wage war on the side of the Muslims in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24        A.   My knowledge is primarily --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please put this question now not in a

Page 41455

 1     five-time leading way.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Do you know that Mujahedin came to Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 5        A.   I know.  First of all --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Both speakers are speaking

 7     at the same time.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were certain persons who had

 9     connections from earlier on, and there's information to the effect that

10     there were 10.000 of them.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you have any knowledge as to who was involved in bringing

13     Mujahedin into Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14        A.   I can just say concerning a general position that these were

15     basically persons who maintained contacts and relations with the

16     countries that we mentioned in our previous statement; from the political

17     and diplomatic life of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, perhaps it would assist you if I would

19     ask the witness in what year that happened.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You heard the question put by Judge Orie.  What year did they

22     arrive in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Mujahedin?

23        A.   Our information is that it was already in 1992, particularly in

24     1993.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You referred twice to information, both about the

Page 41456

 1     number of 10.000 and now about the years.  Do I understand that you have

 2     no personal knowledge of it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We must bear in mind the fact that

 4     I was no longer on the staff of the Presidency of the Republic of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I lived in Republika Srpska.  So territorially, I

 6     lived in a completely different area.  All other information can come

 7     only from the media and --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the simple answer, therefore, is, no, I

 9     don't have that.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   You don't have any personal knowledge, of course, and you told us

14     just now why that is the case.  As --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It is now time for your last question.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   As you lived in Republika Srpska, what kind of knowledge did you

18     acquire?  Who took part in bringing in the Mujahedin?

19        A.   I have already said that this is knowledge but it is not facts

20     that I could see myself.  It is mainly these persons who were involved in

21     political life or diplomatic life and had direct links to the countries

22     that dominated in terms of co-operation with Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is

23     to say, between 1990 and 1992, the pre-war period.  That would be my

24     answer.

25             So this is knowledge but not facts that I could have seen

Page 41457

 1     directly.  I mean documents and the like.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, page 53, line 12, says "[Previous

 3     translation continues] ..." where I spoke.  What I said is it's now time

 4     for your last question.  I repeat that.  You have one extra granted to

 5     you by our transcriber.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  So it is good when you are not recorded in the

 8     transcript.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Just tell us one more thing.  What are these

10     countries with which Bosnia-Herzegovina had contacts in terms of bringing

11     in Mujahedin and what is your knowledge in that respect?  And that would

12     be my last question.

13        A.   My knowledge is that this is mainly Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, and

14     other countries that we've already mentioned within my previous

15     statements.  These are already generally known facts.

16        Q.   Mr. Dmicic, thank you for having answered our questions.  That is

17     all that the Defence of General Mladic had for you for the moment.  Thank

18     you once again.

19        A.   You're welcome.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

21             Witness, Mr. Dmicic, you'll now be cross-examined by

22     Ms. Melikian.  You will see her on your screen soon.  Ms. Melikian is

23     counsel for the Prosecution, but apparently she wants to say something

24     first.

25             MS. MELIKIAN:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 41458

 1             We have no questions for the witness.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions in cross-examination.

 3             Then, Mr. Dmicic, this then concludes your testimony in this

 4     court.  I'd like to thank you very much for making yourself available and

 5     for having answered all the questions that were put to you.  I usually

 6     say by the parties and by the Bench, but in this case I should say by the

 7     Defence and by the Bench.  I wish you a safe return home again.

 8             No speaking aloud.

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You are excused, Mr. Dmicic.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  This concludes the videolink.

14             Is your next witness ready?  Because we asked him to remain on

15     standby the second half of the morning, and since we'll not continue with

16     the videolink at this moment --

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, but maybe it would be wise to have

18     a short break since I have to go and pick up by my colleague Mr. Ivetic

19     who is in the back.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's fine.  Then we take a bit of an earlier

21     break.  Mr. Lukic ...

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  My problem is that if we would take the break now,

24     that we'd have still 75 minutes to go until quarter past 2.00 and that

25     might be too much for Mr. Mladic.  So, therefore, if you could get

Page 41459

 1     Mr. Ivetic in two or three minutes, then we'll just wait for him.  And if

 2     he rushes a bit then ...

 3             MR. LUKIC:  And --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic.  Again.  No, to no

 5     one, never.

 6             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know if VWS brought our next witness yet into

 8     the building, so that's why I'm not sure that we can continue

 9     immediately.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that could be.

11             Madam Registrar, could you try to find out with VWS whether the

12     next witness is already there.  Otherwise, I have a matter which we

13     should deal with in private session anyhow.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's unclear yet whether the witness has

16     arrived or not.

17             Meanwhile, we'll use the time by dealing with a matter we should

18     deal with in private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 41460

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14             Our information is at this moment that the witness would be here

15     in five minutes.  Now, we can do two things:  Either take the break now

16     and have a little bit of a longer session.  Another thing we could do is

17     that I deal with a few procedural matters first, that we'll then continue

18     until quarter past 1.00 or a little bit longer so that we have the full

19     session and that we'll then hear the witness starting from five minutes

20     from now.  I think the latter would be the best so that we have no long

21     sessions.

22             Then I'll deal briefly with a few matters and I'd like to be

23     informed once the witness has arrived.

24             The first one is about Exhibit P5273 which is an excerpt from a

25     handwritten notebook which was admitted into evidence on the 13th

Page 41461

 1     February of 2014.

 2             The Prosecution e-mailed the Chamber and the Defence on the 11th

 3     of November, 2015, advising that a revised English translation which

 4     includes two amendments at page 3 had been uploaded into e-court under

 5     doc ID 0672-2270-1ET.  The Defence responded on the 16th of

 6     November stating that it did not object to the replacement of the

 7     translation.  The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the

 8     English translation of Exhibit P5273 with the revised one of which I just

 9     read the number.

10             The next item deals with Exhibit P7072 and is also about an

11     English translation, a replacement.  This document confirming Jandranko

12     Palija's military service was admitted into evidence on the 28th

13     January of 2015.  At transcript pages 30815 through 30817, the Chamber

14     identified a discrepancy between the original and the translation with

15     regard to Palija's dates of birth.

16             On 2nd of November, the Prosecution e-mailed the Chamber and the

17     Defence advising that a revised English translation had been uploaded

18     into e-court under doc ID 0049-1779-ET-1.

19             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the

20     translation of Exhibit P7072 with a revised one and gives the Defence one

21     week from today to revisit the matter.

22             And since I'm almost done, although the witness has arrived, I

23     briefly deal with P6921, that is the reassignment of an exhibit number.

24             On the 17th November of last year, 2014, during the testimony of

25     Milos Milincic, P6921 was reserved for document bearing 65 ter number

Page 41462

 1     02366a which is an excerpt from transcript from the RS Assembly.

 2     Additional pages were used with Vojo Kupresanin on the 11th and the 16th

 3     of December.

 4             On the 4th of November, 2015, the Prosecution e-mailed the

 5     Chamber and the Defence advising that it had uploaded all excerpts of

 6     this document into e-court as document bearing Rule 65 ter number 02366b.

 7             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to assign exhibit

 8     number P6921 to the new document and admits it into evidence, and the

 9     Defence has one week from today to revisit that matter.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  There's one left.  We will postpone that until

12     later.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             Apologies, Mr. Kovac, for not paying proper attention to you

15     entering the courtroom.

16             Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

17             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kovac, I, however, have to remind that you

19     you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the

20     beginning of your testimony.

21             Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

22                           WITNESS:  MITAR KOVAC [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

25             MR. WEBER:  Thank you.

Page 41463

 1        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Kovac.

 2        A.   Good afternoon.

 3        Q.   Last Thursday, at transcript page 41317 to 18, you indicated that

 4     you interviewed General Grubac and Milenko Lalovic as sources of

 5     information for your report.  General Radovan Grubac was the commander of

 6     the Herzegovina Corps of the VRS; correct?

 7        A.   He was the commander of the Herzegovina Corps, and Lalovic is a

 8     colonel.  Maybe I misheard that you called him general.

 9        Q.   We'll go one by one.  Let's go in order, though.  Novica Gusic

10     was the commander of the Nevesinje Brigade of the Herzegovina Corps;

11     correct?

12        A.   General Grubac was the commander of the Herzegovina Corps.

13        Q.   Yes.  Sir, please listen to my questions carefully.  Novica Gusic

14     was the commander of the Nevesinje Brigade of the Herzegovina Corps;

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes, Novica Gusic.  But I said I talked to Colonel Milenko

17     Lalovic, commander of a battalion in that brigade.

18        Q.   During the war, Milenko Lalovic was a battalion commander in the

19     Nevesinje Brigade; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33245 for

22     the witness.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, your microphone is on.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   I'm going to go through a set of documents and then ask you some

Page 41464

 1     questions.

 2             This is a 27 June 1992 regular combat report from General Grubac

 3     to the VRS Main Staff.  In item 2, related to the combat readiness of the

 4     corps, the report states:  "The Nevesinje Brigade is 'cisti' the area

 5     along the Podvelezje line and taking measures to seize the Velez

 6     feature."

 7             Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33246 for the witness.

 8             This is a 28 June 1992 regular combat report from General Grubac

 9     to the VRS Main Staff.  In item 2, related to the combat readiness of the

10     corps, the report states:  "The principal task of the Nevesinje Brigade

11     is still to ciscenje Podvelezje and Velez feature."

12             My question:  The Nevesinje Brigade was carrying out operations

13     near the town of Nevesinje and the Velez feature in late 1992; correct?

14        A.   No, it was not an operation.  Those were regular combat

15     activities in the area of responsibility of the brigade.

16        Q.   These activities were being carried out by a brigade under

17     General Grubac's command; correct?

18        A.   No, he was not the brigade commander.  Or maybe I'm getting the

19     wrong interpretation.

20        Q.   I'll re-ask my question.  These activities were being carried out

21     by a brigade under General Grubac's command; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have P7657 for the

24     witness.

25        Q.   This is a list of imprisoned individuals from the area of Velez

Page 41465

 1     mountain on 26 June 1992.  On this list there are 26 women and 20

 2     children, the youngest of which was a baby that was seven days old.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the last page of

 4     both versions.

 5        Q.   At the end of the document, there's information that 30 persons

 6     from the list have been identified and buried and there are 42 persons

 7     that have not yet been found.  In preparation for your report, did

 8     General Grubac or Milenko Lalovic tell you how they cleansed these areas

 9     of Muslims?

10             MR. IVETIC:  Objection; misstates the evidence, misstates the

11     documents.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's any issue about misstating a document,

13     Mr. Weber, would you please quote it.

14             MR. WEBER:  I've gone to the two documents.

15        Q.   Did General Grubac or Mr. Lalovic tell you how they ciscenje'd

16     these areas?

17        A.   All this is taken out of the context a little.  Even that term

18     "cleansing" is in quotation marks.  It does not relate to population.  It

19     relates to inserted groups and the mountain that was important to both

20     Serbs and Muslims in that area.  And the whole context of this document

21     is being associated with ethnic cleansing of the population, which was

22     not the case.  They did not tell me about such things, nor did we discuss

23     such things.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33487 for

25     the witness.

Page 41466

 1        Q.   This is a 14 June 1992 Nevesinje Brigade report from Colonel

 2     Novica Gusic.  Under item 3 of the report, he informs the Herzegovina

 3     command that "measures should be taken immediately with the aim of moving

 4     out the population from the brigade's area of responsibility and

 5     especially Croatian and Muslim population because this has a negative

 6     effect on the mood and morale of units."

 7             Sir, the fact is that when the brigade was carrying out the

 8     ciscenje of villages, they were moving out Muslim and Croatian

 9     populations; right?

10        A.   I don't think so.  I think this is a one-sided view of the

11     situation three months after the start of the civil war.  I said

12     yesterday that the people, all the three nations - Muslim, Croats, and

13     Serbs - followed their armies wherever they controlled some territory,

14     and these are the initial months of the civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter numbers 33245, 33246,

16     and 33487 into evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33245 receives exhibit number

19     P7664.  65 ter number 33246 receives exhibit number P7665.  And 65 ter

20     number 33487 receives exhibit number P7666, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  All three are admitted into evidence.

22             Could I ask one clarifying question.  You said this is a

23     one-sided view.  Did you mean the view expressed in the document or the

24     view as you apparently heard it in the question put to you by Mr. Weber?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant the attitude to this

Page 41467

 1     specific situation and the time of these events in that area.  Because

 2     what is shown here is the moving of only one part of the population,

 3     Muslims and Croats, from the area of the Nevesinje Brigade.  What is not

 4     seen is that this was a process in both directions.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm not asking you to elaborate on that.

 6             You said it was a one-sided view.  Were you referring to the view

 7     expressed in the document, or were you referring to the view which you

 8     apparently heard in the question of Mr. Weber?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant it was a one-sided view

10     compared to the objective situation on the ground at the time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It's still not an answer to my question.

12             But please move on, Mr. Weber.

13             MR. WEBER:

14        Q.   According to the first page of your curriculum vitae, you were a

15     lead researcher at the Art of War Institute between September 1991 and

16     September 1999.  Did you hold this position in the JNA and then in the

17     Yugoslav army, also known as the VJ?

18        A.   Yes.  I held that position at the institute in both those

19     periods.

20        Q.   Yes.  Were you a part of the JNA and then the VJ when you held

21     that position -- those positions?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   In your CV, I don't see any reference to your deployments to

24     Croatia after September 1991 or to Bosnia in 1993.  You do not include

25     these deployments in the description of your professional career;

Page 41468

 1     correct?

 2        A.   It's included in the part that lists the duties within the

 3     troops.  It says that I was commander of an artillery battalion, and,

 4     after that, Chief of Staff of an artillery regiment.  I also said that I

 5     was sent for temporary work in the duration of six months without --

 6     without abandoning my duties at the institute and that was subject to a

 7     legal arrangement.

 8        Q.   You were deployed to the Croatian Krajina in the fall of 1991 as

 9     part of the 145th Light Infantry Brigade, known as the Plaski Brigade;

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes.  Yes, in that brigade.

12        Q.   The commander of the 145th Brigade was Petar Trbovic; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution, please, have 65 ter 14406 for

15     the witness.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for that, I have one follow-up

17     question on one of the previous matters.

18             Witness, you said when we looked at that document, paragraph 3,

19     well, the population wanted to follow their armies.  That's what the

20     situation was but the document says otherwise.  The document doesn't say,

21     We should facilitate the Muslims and the Croats to follow their armies.

22     But they say, We should take measures to remove them because they have a

23     negative effect on the mood and the morale of the unit.

24             That's something entirely different.  Would you agree with me

25     that that is not consistent with the earlier explanation you gave?

Page 41469

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honours, that it is

 2     consistent, because these are events of the three months after the

 3     beginning of the war.  The people moved all the time, and the whole first

 4     year of the civil war, people went to areas controlled by their own

 5     armies.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But the document says something different.  The

 7     document says, We should take measures to move them out because they have

 8     a negative effect on the mood and the morale of the units.  That's

 9     something different.  I mean, whether right or wrong, I leave that alone.

10     But I still have difficulties in understanding how you consider this to

11     be consistent with, if I understand you well, a kind of spontaneous

12     movement of populations.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part, people moved

14     spontaneously, but this specific measure shown in the act is not an

15     intention to remove the population.  Instead -- I don't know how to

16     describe it.  It's the beginning of the war, when that population too

17     could have been endangered by paramilitaries, by neighbours.  The spiral

18     of mutual revenge and conflict was continuous in that area, especially

19     during the Second World War.  It's difficult to understand for somebody

20     who is not closely associated by history to that area.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That may all be true.  I was focussing on what I

22     read in this document.  Do you find any support in this document for your

23     view on what may have happened?

24             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honour, to avoid any confusion, I believe

25     the witness might be looking at a different document now.

Page 41470

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  It's the document which we had on our screen, and I

 2     think I quoted it almost literally a second ago.  It was paragraph 3 of

 3     that document.  If you want to look at it again, then we'll put it on the

 4     screen again.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  Could I please have

 6     that document.  And, if possible, could the question be more precise in

 7     relation to this third paragraph.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, it was 65 ter 33487, which I believe

 9     has now been admitted as Exhibit P7666.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  What I asked you is that the whole of your

11     explanation of people moving and what may have been the reasons, being in

12     danger, et cetera, whether you find any support for that in the text of

13     this document.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so, if one knows in detail

15     what the situation was in that area and at this time when the civil war

16     started.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm asking you -- you have explained all

18     that.  I'm asking you whether you find any support for your views in the

19     text of this document.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indirectly, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a way which involves knowing the

23     interethnic situation on the ground and relations there.  And this was

24     given rise to two or three years before the war and especially when the

25     civil war started, and already 35.000 Serbs were moved out of --

Page 41471

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'll look whether what you tell us now is

 2     found in the text of the document, yes or no.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 14406 for

 5     the witness.

 6        Q.   This is a Korenica SDB security service Official Note about the

 7     attack on Saborsko on 12 November 1991.  First of all, Plaski is located

 8     just to the north of Saborsko; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, that is where it is located.

10        Q.   The Official Note indicates that the attack included the Plaski

11     TO, Territorial Defence, and units of the JNA.

12             In the second paragraph, there's discussion of the ciscenje of

13     houses and the remaining terrain that followed the attack.  The last

14     sentence of the paragraph states:  "Today, the 13th of this month, we

15     have continued 'ciscenje' the remaining terrain villages and

16     inhabitants."

17             Your brigade participated in this attack; correct?

18        A.   That period is one month before I arrived, and I don't have any

19     precise knowledge about that.

20        Q.   Okay.  You agree that ciscenje of inhabitants includes civilians;

21     correct?

22        A.   What the signatory of the document meant by that word is

23     something that I don't know.  Whether he meant that forces, armed forces,

24     that were there should be driven out or whether he was referring to the

25     inhabitants, the civil population there, that is what I don't know.

Page 41472

 1        Q.   Okay.  I put it to you that you were deployed to areas of Croatia

 2     around the time in which villages were being ciscenje'd or inhabitants

 3     were being removed from villages in the Croatian Krajina; right?

 4        A.   No, that's not correct.  When we arrived as members of the JNA,

 5     there was a precisely defined front line between the two warring parties.

 6     As for all of these developments, the cleansing of the Serb and Croat

 7     populations on both sides of the front line, that was already over.

 8             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 14406 into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 14406 receives exhibit number

11     P7667, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P7667 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'm about to go into other document and

14     this is an okay time.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we take the break first.

16             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  We'll resume

17     at 25 minutes to 2.00.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           --- Recess taken at 1.13 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

22             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if I can use this time to address a

23     housekeeping matter.  It's with respect to D1357 marked for

24     identification.  This is the manual from the United Kingdom, JSP 383.

25     The Defence was kind enough to send a full version to the Prosecution

Page 41473

 1     yesterday evening, and the Prosecution has had the opportunity to review

 2     it.  We have no objection to the admission of the manual, provided that

 3     the cover page and chapter 5 is what's admitted.  If the Defence could

 4     upload that, then we have no objection to it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, cover page, chapter 5, is that -- oh,

 6     Mr. Ivetic, yes.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  We will do that, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And then once it's uploaded, you'll inform us and

 9     then we'll decide on admission.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 00743.

13        Q.   Mr. Kovac, this is a 18 May 1992 2nd Military District request

14     for officers.  The document is from General Mladic.  You are listed as

15     the second person on the list; correct?

16        A.   As far as I can see in the document, yes.

17        Q.   Did you know General Mladic before May 1992?

18        A.   I knew of his existence.  I didn't know him personally.

19        Q.   Were you still deployed in Croatia at this time?

20        A.   Well, that is the period until the arrival of UNPROFOR.  I don't

21     know the exact date.  It is possible that I was still there or that I was

22     returning from Croatia, so that period.  But in May, I did return from

23     Croatia.

24        Q.   Where were you between May 1992 and the beginning of 1993?

25        A.   In the institute.  The Institute of warfare, that is.

Page 41474

 1        Q.   You were in Belgrade?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 743 into evidence.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document number 743 receives exhibit number

 6     P7668, Your Honours.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Actually, Your Honours, if we're going to be talking

 8     about the list of names, I think the list of names and ranks, at least

 9     the portion relied upon, should be translated since in the English I see

10     we don't have that.  We just have the generic list of 14 names and the

11     ranks without information that's being discussed by the Prosecution.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do agree with you, that it's not there, and

13     though the Chamber meanwhile thinks that it knows what a pukovnik is, for

14     example, but if it's -- of course, we'll send it for further -- we'll ask

15     the Prosecutor to send it for further translation.  At the same time, if

16     it's only about Mr. Kovac which you want to deal with it, then it looks

17     as if it's artillery captain first class, which is -- that's at least how

18     I understand it.  If that's it, we could perhaps save the effort.  But if

19     you think it's relevant and important for us to know what the ranks of

20     all the others are, then we'll certainly invite the Prosecution to do so.

21             Mr. Ivetic, you think we should know what Mr. Risic and all the

22     others, what their ranks are?

23             MR. IVETIC:  Well, I don't know.  You left it saying if the

24     Prosecution wishes to rely upon it.  I don't know what the Prosecution

25     wishes to rely upon.

Page 41475

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you only want to rely on the Mitar Kovac entry.

 2             Is there anything else, Mr. Weber?

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, the Prosecution has tendered many

 4     similar lists like this where I believe it is clear what it is.  I think

 5     it would fall under the category of there were many requests for lists of

 6     officers from the --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So if it's --

 8             MR. WEBER:  -- so the quantity might be relied upon.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not an answer to the question.  Do you want to

10     rely on the ranks of all the other persons mentioned?

11             MR. WEBER:  We could possibly do that as a part of a larger group

12     of exhibits.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So you will send it for a full translation.

14             Please proceed.

15             Oh, yes, it should be MFI-ed, Madam Registrar.  You've assigned a

16     number already.  Yes.  That's P7668 which is now marked for

17     identification, pending translation -- I should say pending full

18     translation.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   Mr. Kovac, when you were deployed as part of the

22     Herzegovina Corps in 1993, you still received payments from the VJ;

23     correct?

24        A.   In that period, yes, because I hadn't handed over my duty yet.

25        Q.   At transcript page 41295, you indicated that you served as an

Page 41476

 1     artillery officer in the VRS between January and August 1993.  You were

 2     in the Herzegovina Corps during Operation Mac and Operation Lukavac 93;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   No.  Just during Operation Lukavac 93.

 5        Q.   During Operation Lukavac 93, the Herzegovina Corps captured Mount

 6     Treskavica, Mount Bjelasnica, and Mount Visocica; correct?

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think you should repeat the names slowly.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   Mount Treskavica, Mount Bljesnica, and part of Mount Visocica.

10     This is what happened during Operation Lukavac 93, correct, from the

11     Herzegovina Corps end?

12        A.   Not only the Herzegovina Corps, also acting in concert with part

13     of the forces of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  And it's not that it was

14     taken.  Rather, this territory was returned, territory that had been

15     taken by the Muslim forces a year before that, in 1992.  So it liberated

16     the area that had previously been taken by the Muslim forces.

17        Q.   From 1999 until 2014, the primary focus of your work pertained to

18     strategic planning and the development of national defence policies in

19     the Republic of Serbia; correct?

20        A.   No.  From 1999 until 2004, I was head of a department in the

21     mentioned institute, and I was involved in leading research projects that

22     are listed in the CV.

23             As from 2004 onwards, I was appointed chief of Department for

24     Strategic planning in the Ministry of Defence in the sector for defence

25     policy.

Page 41477

 1        Q.   Your research and publications between 1999 and 2014 related to

 2     your work as a member of the Ministry of Defence and the military

 3     institute in Serbia; correct?

 4        A.   Well, not only at the military institute.  While I was at the

 5     institute, yes, that is until 2004.  And then after that, research work

 6     was in the form of teaching at the Military Academy, later on at the

 7     University of Defence.  And it was carried out within projects of some of

 8     the schools of Belgrade university or rather faculties of the University

 9     of Belgrade.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say between 1999 and 2004 or 2014?

11             MR. WEBER:  2014.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  2014.  Okay.  Thank you.

13             MR. WEBER:  And I could have done both for the Ministry of

14     Defence and military institute.

15        Q.   You mentioned your book, "History of the Art of War," and the

16     fact that there were multiple volumes.  Your co-authors of this

17     publication on different volumes were Janacka Sarakovic [phoen] and

18     Bozidar Forca?

19        A.   Forca.

20        Q.   Correct?

21        A.   Not only they.  So you found these three names somewhere but

22     there were eight researchers in that period, that five-year period.  Most

23     of them were involved in the first monograph that pertained to the period

24     until 1920.  I had the role of project leader and I --

25        Q.   If we can just continue.  You've explained a lot of this already.

Page 41478

 1             In fact, most of your articles and publications were with a group

 2     of co-authors; is that correct?

 3        A.   No.  Most of them are author publications, single-author

 4     publications.

 5        Q.   You wrote an article entitled:  "Military Aspects of NATO

 6     Aggression on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" with Bozidar Forca,

 7     which was published in 2000?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   This is one of the articles that you do not mention in your CV;

10     correct?

11        A.   Well, I said that it's about 135 articles and that I had only

12     provided some of them in my CV.

13        Q.   I return to your book.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33492a.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have the corresponding -- yes, there it

16     is.

17             MR. WEBER:  Yes.  Thank you very much.

18        Q.   This is one of your publications concerning the History of

19     Military Arts, the one that you co-authored with Colonel Forca; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could we actually please return to the first page.  I

22     see it's uploaded out of order.

23        Q.   One of the consulting editors on this publication was General

24     Radovan Radinovic; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 41479

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to page 4 in both

 2     versions.

 3        Q.   This is the section of the book on military control.  In the

 4     first paragraph, you describe the continuous interconnected cycle in

 5     which military control is exercised; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You describe the five functions that are mutually causal and

 8     continuous.  They are, first, planning; second, organisation; third,

 9     commanding, issuing orders; fourth, co-ordination; and, fifth, control.

10             A commander exercises military control over forces under their

11     command through the continuous performance of these functions; correct?

12        A.   This is not a new classification of functions.  These functions

13     of command and control go back to the classics, to the present day, so,

14     yes.

15        Q.   In the next paragraph you discuss the role of the commander and

16     state:  "The commander was considered to be the main actor in commanding

17     who had the exclusive right to make decisions and issue orders."

18             I'm just going to pause here.  General Mladic, as the commander

19     of the VRS, possessed the exclusive right to make decisions and issue

20     orders; correct?

21        A.   I think that are you comparing the wrong period from this book to

22     something that happened in 1990 onwards.  This, from the book, is from

23     1920 until 1945.  These are generalisations of theoretical and empirical

24     knowledge that primarily has to do with the Second World War.

25        Q.   Doctrinally speaking, and you've described how these are very

Page 41480

 1     well-known things, General Mladic, as the commander of the VRS, possessed

 2     the exclusive right to make decisions and issue orders; right?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Misstates the evidence.  General Mladic was not the

 4     commander of the VRS.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:  He was appointed to the commander of the Army of

 7     Republika Srpska on 12 May 1992.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's evidence given by you at this moment, but I

 9     think what Mr. Ivetic may be pointing at is that the president of the

10     Republika Srpska is the Commander-in-Chief or the supreme commander.

11     Let's not -- I mean, we know what we're talking about, more or less, and

12     that you are referring to General Mladic in his position as the --

13             MR. WEBER:  Commander --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- commander, not the Commander-in-Chief perhaps.

15     But let's -- I mean, is there any dispute about these matters?  If not,

16     let's then move on.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, if we're talking about a

18     military expert or trying to use expertise, being precise is important.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

20             MR. WEBER:  The witness is present and he does understand --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please rephrase your question using the right

22     terminology.

23             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

24        Q.   First of all, you agree that the commander of an army has the

25     exclusive right to make decisions and issue orders; right?

Page 41481

 1        A.   That's the case in every army of the world.  He has the exclusive

 2     right to make decisions within his powers.

 3        Q.   The rest of the sentence indicates that the commander could

 4     transfer part of his powers and responsibilities with respect to issuing

 5     orders to his assistants, which did not exclude his liability for a

 6     successful realisation of his duties.  In other words, a commander can

 7     delegate some duties but they are still responsible for the tasks to be

 8     carried out; correct?

 9        A.   I would kindly ask you to separate the findings from monographs

10     until 1995 and your specific questions about General Mladic.  In this

11     period, General Mladic was not born or was a child.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The year was 1945,

13     not 1995.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not fair to compare something

15     from the period of up to 1945.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, at this time we have a lot of other

17     doctrinal stuff in.  The Prosecution would just tender 65 ter 33492a into

18     evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33492a receives exhibit number

21     P7669, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Did you write the report entitled:  "Report on the Command

Page 41482

 1     Authority of General Ratko Mladic in the War in Bosnia and Herzegovina"?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you personally author each of the paragraphs of the report?

 4        A.   Yes, he personally -- I personally authored it.  But in the

 5     footnotes, there are things that I took over from other documents and

 6     expert reports, as I mentioned in the previous days.

 7        Q.   You're saying the contents of the report are a product of your

 8     own analysis and work.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Are there any paragraphs in your report where you significantly

11     borrow text from another source without attributing either the

12     conclusions or the text to the other source?

13        A.   There are no such documents.  Passages are marked where they

14     contain positions taken based on some other analysis or document, and I

15     listed the expert reports that I used the most, both from the Defence

16     side and the Prosecution side.

17             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 1D05358.  If

18     we could please go to page 177 of the B/C/S and page 179 of the English

19     translation.  If we could please focus on paragraph 4.220.

20        Q.   This is your report in this case.  You discussed a number of

21     things in paragraph 4.220, including the murder of two young Sarajevans

22     on 19 May 1993.  Focussing your attention on the sentence starting on the

23     third line from the bottom of the page in the B/C/S with the words "prvo

24     je na mostu smrtno pogodjen Bosko." [Phoen]

25             In the English, the sentence starts:  "First Bosko was shot dead

Page 41483

 1     on the bridge."

 2             Do you see this part of the paragraph?

 3        A.   Yes, I see it.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Could I have the next page in both versions.

 5        Q.   You continue your discussion of the facts related to this event

 6     up until the phrase "Emir prenesena na groblje Lav u Sarajevu," [phoen],

 7     which is translated in the English as "the Lav cemetery in Sarajevo as

 8     Emir's parents wished"; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You do not attribute any of this information to Wikipedia, do

11     you?

12        A.   It's not only from Wikipedia.  It's from several sources,

13     cross-referenced information, and the one that was closest to me is

14     stated in the footnote, as you can see here from the newspaper

15     Slobodna Dalmacija, Free Dalmatia.

16             MR. WEBER:  Could we please leave the B/C/S version on the screen

17     and bring up 65 ter 33486 next to the report.  If we could please focus

18     on the highlighted portion.

19        Q.   Mr. Kovac, before you is a highlighted version of the B/C/S

20     Wikipedia page for the Romeo and Juliet murders in Sarajevo from

21  Could you please focus on the highlighted part that

22     starts with the phrase "prvo je na mostu" [phoen] through the sentence

23     that ends "Lav u Sarajevu."

24             You borrowed this text from Wikipedia for your report; right?

25        A.   No, from -- it's from Slobodna Dalmacija.

Page 41484

 1        Q.   Well, the only part of the text that is different from your

 2     report is a single phrase, "su se obe stranje u subukobu," [phoen],

 3     meaning both parties of the conflict.  It appears that you have changed

 4     this phrase to "su se Srbi i Muslimani," [phoen], which is translated as

 5     "while Serbs and Muslims."  That's the only difference between this

 6     Wikipedia text and the text in your report; correct?

 7        A.   It's a paraphrase of the text based on the source of Slobodna

 8     Dalmacija, as stated in the footnote.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well, the one source that's actually cited in this

10     Wikipedia page is from Mr. Emin Garaplija and the same interview

11     publication which you have in footnote 484 of paragraph 4.220.  The

12     Wikipedia page is where you got your source; right?

13        A.   No, that's not right.  It's the newspaper Slobodna Dalmacija.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, have you checked the Slobodna Dalmacija

15     source?

16             MR. WEBER:  I am aware of it but I see that it's also listed

17     right here on --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But you are more or less suggesting to the witness

19     that he copied it from Wikipedia.  There is, of course, a possibility -

20     and that's the reason why I'm asking you - that Wikipedia has copied from

21     Slobodna Dalmacija which then might result in the same text to be found

22     on Wikipedia compared to what is found in the witness's report.  Have you

23     considered that, and would you please in the following questions or

24     perhaps tomorrow pay attention that it's a possibility as well.

25             MR. WEBER:  Very well.

Page 41485

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You have considered it?

 2             MR. WEBER:  I am aware of the source.  I will, of course, proceed

 3     accordingly tomorrow.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One other observation.  The footnote should be

 6     464.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Are you aware that Mr. Garaplija has made a variety of claims

 9     after his 1997 conviction for maltreating Nedzad Herenda, and do you

10     realise these theories or many of these claims have been rejected by

11     courts in Bosnia, including the Human Rights Chamber of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13        A.   I've read many texts, both from the press and monographs related

14     to this case, and I formed my own opinion based on all that information.

15        Q.   Okay.  Are you aware that his claims have been rejected by courts

16     in Bosnia?

17        A.   No, I didn't know that.

18        Q.   Did you review all of the source materials referenced in the

19     footnotes of your report?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Just to finish off today with a couple of general questions.

22             You stated that you had a talk with Nenad Petrusic about the

23     scope of your work and the material that is available for your report.

24     What specifically did you understand the scope of your report to be?

25        A.   Well, I did not think of the physical scope.  I thought more

Page 41486

 1     about the structure of the report that should cover the key issues

 2     related to the civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina and primarily in the

 3     territory of the Sarajevo theatre of war and the protected areas of

 4     Srebrenica and Zepa.

 5        Q.   Okay.  In our review of the source materials referenced in your

 6     report, we found that you often appeared to have drawn upon the analysis

 7     of Radovan Radinovic.  We see that -- we counted up that General

 8     Radinovic is the most commonly referenced source in your report, and

 9     there appears to be at least 84 references to his previous reports;

10     correct?  He is the most commonly referred to person in your report;

11     right?

12        A.   Most frequently I referred to that one, but I referred also to

13     Butler, Butler's reports.  Mostly I used General Radinovic, and that's

14     true.

15        Q.   In comparing your report and General Radinovic's reports, we

16     appear to find a significant number of paragraphs where the text,

17     conclusions and analysis were substantially similar or the same as

18     General Radinovic's but where there were no references to one of General

19     Radinovic's reports.

20             Mr. Kovac, with the Chamber's permission, I'm going to hand you a

21     document that lists some examples of overlapping paragraphs where it is

22     not apparent to us that you cite General Radinovic.  I have courtesy

23     copies for the Chamber and the Defence.  And just if we could describe it

24     quickly.  Each one on the list contains entries with paragraph numbers

25     from your report and paragraph numbers from one of General Radinovic's

Page 41487

 1     reports.  I also have available B/C/S hard copies of General Radinovic's

 2     reports so you can compare them to your report.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Again, with Your Honours' leave, after court today,

 4     I'd like to give the witness the four binders of the reports and ask the

 5     witness to compare the listed paragraphs from his report to the

 6     corresponding paragraphs from General Radinovic's reports.  I can then

 7     ask further questions once the witness has looked at this.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, the binders of which reports, of the

 9     Radinovic's reports?

10             MR. WEBER:  They are the -- the four binders each contain the

11     separate Radinovic reports in each one and they are listed on the -- and

12     they're provided on the list.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we ask the witness to do a lot of

14     homework, Mr. Weber apparently puts it to you that you many, many

15     portions of your report are similar in text with the Radinovic's reports

16     without a reference to those reports.  Do you agree with that, or do you

17     disagree?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not talking in advance about

19     any specific paragraph or passage.  I'll first have to consult this.  But

20     wherever I explicitly expressed positions identical to the analysis of

21     General Radinovic, I referred to the source and provided a footnote.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The issue, however, is - and that's apparently

23     what Mr. Weber puts to you - that where you do not perhaps explicitly

24     express positions which -- but that you adopt more or less the text as we

25     find it in these other reports, without a clear reference to the

Page 41488

 1     Radinovic's reports.

 2             Do you allow for the possibility that you have done that in so

 3     many instances?  And briefly counting, I think we're talking about some

 4     30 or more paragraphs.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible that where a footnote

 6     is given, it relates to two or three paragraphs, especially if they were

 7     reformulated or commented in my own way because it's the same substance,

 8     the same event, the same documents.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you're putting this to the witness.

10     You're apparently tried to analyse it.  Are we talking about similar

11     language?  Are we talking about 90, 95 per cent of the words the same?

12     Are we talking about 40 per cent?  Or 70 per cent?  Could you give us an

13     impression as --

14             MR. WEBER:  I would say over 75 per cent of the words.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Of the words.  Then we are talking verbatim about

16     the words used in the same order.

17             MR. WEBER:  Substantially the same, yeah.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness for 30 or more paragraphs as listed

19     here, would you agree that your text would, for 75 per cent, be verbatim,

20     the same, as the Radinovic reports where you have not footnoted

21     Mr. Radinovic's report or reports?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The source is stated in the way

23     that I said.  If the paragraphs were reformulated and expressed in my own

24     way, then there is no footnote.  And in the sense of value --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Even if 75 per cent of the text remains identical to

Page 41489

 1     the one in Mr. Radinovic's report?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't see a problem if even

 3     that percentage is true, if the same words were used, considering that

 4     it's the same event.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was not asking whether you see a problem in

 6     it.  I'm just trying to just establish what we are talking about.

 7             Are you willing to compare it and to see whether you agree that

 8     for those paragraphs, that substantially the same text is used as by

 9     Mr. Radinovic?  Are you willing to compare that overnight so that we hear

10     from you tomorrow?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will compare them.  I said

12     at the outset that that analysis and Butler's analysis were the primary

13     sources I used.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you similarly quoted?  That means used the same

15     words from the Butler reports as well in a similar way; that is, 75

16     per cent of a paragraph using the same words as we find them in

17     Mr. Butler's report?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When a passage or a paragraph was

19     cited, it could have been the same, 40, 50 or 70 per cent.  The substance

20     was expressed in the same way and a footnote was provided.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And also without a footnote?  Because I do

22     understand that Mr. Weber is pointing at those paragraphs where, quite

23     substantially, text is the same as in the Radinovic report but without a

24     footnote.  Have you similarly adopted major parts of the text of

25     Mr. Butler's reports without footnoting?

Page 41490

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Footnotes were given and even

 2     my comment was added, or a clarification of that paragraph.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you're invited to work overnight on --

 4             Mr. Ivetic, would you still want to have a look at the binders

 5     before they are given to Mr. Kovac?

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I would, especially since I'm surprised that they

 7     cover four binders.  That doesn't --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that the parties will look at the

 9     binders and see whether there's any disagreement on that, and once

10     they've done so, that it be given to the VWS so as to provide them to the

11     witness.

12             MR. IVETIC:  I'm prepared to do that, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, Witness, you'll later receive the

14     binders with the reports of Mr. Radinovic, and you're invited to compare

15     on the basis of this list whether, indeed, you have adopted a large

16     portion, and you heard Mr. Weber talking about some 75 per cent minimal,

17     of his text in your report without a specific footnote in that

18     paragraph to the Radinovic reports.

19             If you'd like -- if you'd do that, we would appreciate to hear

20     from you tomorrow.  Because we'll adjourn for the day, and we will resume

21     tomorrow, Wednesday, the 18th of November, though we do not need you

22     right in the beginning because we'll first hear the evidence of another

23     witness, which most likely takes approximately one hour and a half, I

24     think.  Mr. Lukic?  Mr. Ivetic?  I don't know who to address because we

25     have a videolink tomorrow.

Page 41491

 1             MR. LUKIC:  In the conversation with the Prosecution, we think

 2     that we might finish tomorrow's first witness in the first session.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean the Defence or the whole of the testimony?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  The whole of the testimony.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The whole of the testimony.

 6             Then could you please take care that you are standing by here in

 7     this building from quarter to 11.00.  That would -- and I again instruct

 8     you that you should not speak or communicate with whomever about your

 9     testimony, whether already given or still to be given.

10             If that's all clear to you, you may follow the usher.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all clear.  Thank you.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and with our apologies to

14     those assisting us going beyond the time, we resume tomorrow, Wednesday,

15     the 18th of November, 2015, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom,

16     I.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.25 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of

19                           November, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.