1 Wednesday, 18 November 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 We'll start with hearing the testimony of the next witness
12 through videolink. Let's first check whether the videolink is
13 functioning well.
14 At this moment, Madam Registrar, at the other side of the
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We hear you; we see you. Do you hear us? Do you
18 see us?
19 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours. We
20 can hear you; we can see you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, are you ready to call your next witness?
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness be escorted into the
3 videolink room. I do understand that it would be a witness who testifies
4 without protective measures and that it would Mr. Dragan Vujcic.
5 MR. LUKIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar at the videolink location, could you
7 please escort the witness into the courtroom. And could you also tell us
8 who, apart from you, are present in the videolink room.
9 Madam Registrar will tell us in a minute.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar at the videolink location, could you
12 tell us who are in the room with you at this moment?
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, apart from myself,
14 there is the witness and ICTY ITSS technician.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 Good morning, Witness, Mr. Vujcic. Mr. Vujcic, before you give
17 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration, of which
18 the text is now handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 WITNESS: DRAGAN VUJCIC
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 [Witness testified via videolink]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Vujcic. Please be seated.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vujcic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.
3 You'll see him soon on your screen. Mr. Lukic is counsel for the -- for
4 Mr. Mladic.
5 Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vujcic.
9 A. Good morning, Mr. Lukic.
10 Q. Could you tell us for the record slowly your first and last name.
11 A. I am Dragan Vujcic.
12 Q. I'll make a brief pause before I put my questions to you because
13 I'm waiting for interpretation.
14 A. All right.
15 Q. Have you given a statement to the Defence team of General Mladic?
16 A. I have.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see on our screens 1D05895.
18 Q. Mr. Vujcic, can you see it on the screen before you?
19 A. Yes, I can see it, "Witness Statement."
20 Q. On this page before you, do you recognise the signature?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Whose signature is it?
23 A. Mine.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the last page of
25 this document, please.
1 Q. Can you see the signature on this page?
2 A. It's my signature again, Dragan Vujcic.
3 Q. Thank you. Have you had an opportunity to review this statement?
4 Does it reflect accurately what you've said to the Defence team of
5 General Mladic?
6 A. Yes, I have. I've reviewed it and it's accurate.
7 Q. Is it truthful?
8 A. Yes, it's truthful.
9 Q. If I were to ask you again today the same questions, would you
10 give the same answers?
11 A. Yes, I would give the same answers as the first time. That's --
12 that's it.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vujcic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would now like to tender the
15 statement of Mr. Vujcic.
16 MS. D'ASCOLI: No objections, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 1D5895 receives
19 Exhibit Number D1359, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
21 MR. LUKIC: I will just read the short statement of Mr. Vujcic
22 and I will not have any questions for our witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed as you suggest.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Vujcic, I will now read a short version of your statement for
1 the public to know its contents.
2 [In English] I didn't provide copies to the booths. We had some
3 problems with the printer this morning, so I just have one copy of it
4 that I printed yesterday. I'll read slowly.
5 JUDGE ORIE: If you read slowly, that will certainly assist.
6 MR. LUKIC: The witness, Dragan Vujcic, was trained during his
7 regular military service in the JNA to carry out engineering tasks, and
8 he was in the village where he was born in Prijedor municipality when the
9 war broke out. He received his mobilisation papers there on 16th of
10 September, 1991, and he was assigned to the engineering battalion of what
11 was then the 343rd Motorised Brigade of the JNA.
12 He speaks about the structure of his engineering battalion, the
13 number of personnel, manning and equipment levels, and the ethnic
14 structure of the unit. He also describes the war history of his unit and
15 his combat dispositions and asserts that his unit and its equipment were
16 deployed in the Gradacac front, apart from a logistics unit, quartered in
17 the village of Orlovaca in the Prijedor sector whose task was to repair
18 damaged machinery. He says that his unit never received any orders
19 relating to the Tomasica mine and nor were its machines used to bury
20 bodies in Tomasica. Personnel from his unit did not have any part in
21 these burials. In this context, he says that any suggestion that he was
22 ever in Tomasica would not be correct because the first time he heard of
23 Tomasica was through the media when the bodies were being excavated.
24 So that is short summary statement.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vujcic, you'll now be cross-examined by
3 Ms. D'Ascoli. Ms. D'Ascoli will soon appear on your screen.
4 Ms. D'Ascoli is counsel for the Prosecution.
5 Please proceed.
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you, Your Honours, and good morning to
8 Cross-examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:
9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vujcic.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. I will have some questions for you this morning, although I won't
12 keep you for long --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we do not only have questions --
14 MS. D'ASCOLI: Sorry.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- we have some music as well apparently - not my
16 preferred music, but that doesn't matter. Music is over now again.
17 Okay. Let's move on.
18 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, okay.
19 Q. Mr. Vujcic, I was saying I will have some questions for this
20 morning. So, sir, you mentioned in paragraph 5 of your statement, now
21 admitted as D1359, that you were mobilised into the 343rd Motorised
22 Brigade of the JNA on 16 September 1991. At that time your brigade
23 commander was Vladimir Arsic; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That brigade became the 43rd Motorised Brigade of the VRS on
1 19 May 1992, didn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And Colonel Arsic remained commander; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And Captain Dragan Gajic remained your battalion commander?
6 A. Right.
7 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I have D866 on the screen, please, and I would
8 ask that the first page in both languages be displayed.
9 Q. Sir, while the document is appearing on the screens, you
10 mentioned in paragraph 7 of your statement that you were deployed back to
11 Prijedor in May 1992 before leaving again to the front.
12 Now the document is on the screen. This is a 5th Corps daily
13 combat report to the 2nd Military District dated 3 May 1992. I will
14 direct your attention to point 2, the second paragraph of the document on
15 the screen, and you have -- it's the same in the B/C/S, yes.
16 Now, point 2, second paragraph, and I will read:
17 "In the course of 2 and 3 May, one 105-millimetre Howitzer
18 battery and one anti-armour artillery battery of the 343rd Motorised
19 Brigade were relocated to the Prijedor area in order to strengthen the
20 units in the wider Prijedor-Ljubija-Kozarac area."
21 You have seen that, sir, right?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Sir, were you aware that these units were relocated to Prijedor
24 in May 1992?
25 A. I didn't know that because we stayed on in the Croatian
1 battle-field to hand over the minefields to the Nepalese Battalion of the
3 Q. Okay. Let's go to that. So in paragraph 7 of your statement you
4 say that you and the engineers of your battalion returned to Prijedor
5 from the Croatian front in May 1992. You then state that after a short
6 rest period in Prijedor, you were sent to the Gradacac front?
7 A. Yes, yes. That's -- that's right.
8 Q. Now, Gradacac is about 190 kilometres away from Prijedor; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And do you remember when you went to Gradacac after a period of
11 rest in Prijedor?
12 A. It was a short rest, some five days. We mainly stayed in the
13 Zarko Zgonjanin barracks in Prijedor. We parked our motor vehicles, and
14 after five days we left for the front line in Gradacac.
15 Q. Do you mean that it was the same month, May 1992, or was it
16 later, if you remember that?
17 A. Yes, it was in May.
18 Q. And your deployment there was part of the corridor operation? I
19 mean your deployment to Gradacac.
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can we have P3841 to the screen, please. And if
22 we can turn to page 5 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.
23 Q. Sir, the document that will be appearing on the screen is an
24 interview with Radmilo Zeljaja published in the Kozarski Vjesnik in 1994.
25 Now in 1992 Zeljaja was the deputy commander of your brigade; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. D'Ascoli, could you direct us where the B/C/S
3 we can find this part.
4 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes. In the B/C/S it is the fourth column. The
5 part that I'm going to refer to starts at the very bottom where -- and
6 then it continues on -- unfortunately, it continues on page 1 and the
7 last column because it's an article, so it reads in columns. So it will
8 be probably -- we will have to ask the Court Officer to go back and
9 forth. But if I start reading from -- in the B/C/S, it's page 2 at the
10 very bottom of the fourth column, while in English we can follow at
11 page 5 -- yeah. So the English and this is the part that starts with
12 Radmilo Zeljaja being interviewed.
13 Q. So I will read the part that I will be referring to, sir.
14 MS. D'ASCOLI: And at some point in the B/C/S we have to -- after
15 the first line, we have to move to page 1, the beginning of the fifth
17 Q. So maybe, sir, I will ask you to start reading and then I will
18 give you time to catch up. You can also listen to the translation, of
19 course. So I quote -- Zeljaja here is asked about the deployment of the
20 43rd Brigade units to the corridor and he says:
21 "Yes, we were given the task to leave and help the forces to
22 break the corridor of life. At that time, we mobilised the
23 2nd Battalion" --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Can we switch now.
25 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, please move in B/C/S to page 1, the beginning
1 of the fifth column. Thank you.
2 Q. "At that time we mobilised the 2nd Battalion of Major Slijepcevic
3 reinforced it with artillery, armoured, and other units, and set off
4 across Trebava and Doboj to accomplish the task."
5 Could you follow that, sir? Did you read that?
6 A. Yes, yes, I have.
7 Q. Okay. Do you agree that this is the deployment of the
8 43rd Brigade units to the corridor that resulted in you and your unit
9 going to Gradacac?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, continuing with the quote, Zeljaja says:
12 "We arrived at the appropriate region before Saint Vitus Day and
13 we were gradually preparing to be introduced into the battle."
14 Sir, Saint Vitus Day is the 28th of June; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So it was, in fact, late June 1992 when those 43rd Brigade units
17 that went to the corridor were deployed there, wasn't it?
18 MR. LUKIC: I don't see that everybody should read the same way.
19 It says "just before Vidov Dan they were," that's what it says here,
20 "before Vidov Dan," that doesn't say when.
21 JUDGE ORIE: A matter which you can raise in re-examination.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, for the most part, yes.
23 MS. D'ASCOLI: Okay.
24 Q. Can you -- sir, until when did you stay to the Gradacac front?
25 A. We stayed until 1995, from 1992 to 1995.
1 Q. Okay. I move to the different area.
2 Sir, in your statement, paragraph 9, now D1359, you say that the
3 chief engineer was Reserve Captain Slobodan Skoric. He was the chief
4 engineer of your brigade, of the 43rd Brigade; correct?
5 A. Yes, he was the chief of the engineering battalion.
6 Q. And --
7 A. And the commander was Dragan Gajic. I was man number three,
8 Gajic's deputy.
9 Q. Yes, precisely. What was the role of the chief engineer of the
11 A. Well, the chief engineer was in contact with the brigade command.
12 Commands came through him to Commander Gajic; and I, together with the
13 troops, dealt with the digging of trenches, construction of roads,
14 supplies to the brigade with heating, fuel, water, et cetera. We did
15 everything the brigade asked.
16 Q. And what were your dealings with him, with the chief engineer,
17 with Captain Slobodan Skoric? How often would you see him and so on?
18 That's what I mean.
19 A. Well, he spent more time at the brigade command than together
20 with us. Gajic and I were with the troops and we carried out the works,
21 the assignments, we received from the brigade command -- I mean
22 engineering works, any that were needed, placing minefields, barriers,
23 digging trenches, supplying --
24 Q. That's clear, sir --
25 A. -- et cetera.
1 Q. -- thank you.
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Did you know Slobodan Skoric from Prijedor in 1991, before you
4 were both mobilised?
5 [French on English Channel]
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: I'm receiving French.
7 JUDGE ORIE: However much I like the French language, it should
8 not be on the English channel.
9 Please proceed.
10 MS. D'ASCOLI:
11 Q. Sir, can I ask you to repeat your answer.
12 A. Mr. Skoric was the chief of engineers even before the war broke
13 out in 1991. That was an engineering company then at that time. He was
14 always at the head of the engineering units. He was the best person for
15 that in the brigade.
16 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can we have P7385 on the screen, please. And if
17 we go to page 5 in the English and page 6 in the B/C/S, please.
18 Q. So, sir, you knew what his job was before being mobilised, you
19 said chief engineer, head of the engineer units. Do you know where he
20 was working?
21 A. Slobodan Skoric worked at the Ljubija mine as a technical
22 officer. I think he was in charge of construction.
23 Q. Yes. We see on this page -- this is, sir, a report from the --
24 on the work of the company, of the Ljubija mine company, doing war
25 operations in 1992. And on this page we see a list of workers of the
1 company that were mobilised into the VRS. And in fact, I want to direct
2 your attention to the middle of the page where we read:
3 "Mining sector, head Slobodan Skoric."
4 So as you said, you were aware that he was the head of the mining
5 sector at the RZR Ljubija; right?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. Now as head of the mining sector Ljubija, he would have known
8 well the resources, the machines available, at the mine company, et
9 cetera; right?
10 A. Yes, that's right. For the most part, he was the mine's
11 technical director.
12 Q. And you yourself knew the RZR Ljubija mine company in Prijedor;
13 right? Were you aware and did you know the type of resources and
14 machines that the company had at its disposal?
15 A. Yes, superficially. I know that they had the mining equipment.
16 They had bulldozers, dumpers, excavators, trucks. Yes, they had all of
18 Q. Okay. Now let's say the 43rd Brigade needed to dig a trench or
19 build a road in Prijedor and your unit and its equipment was at the
20 front - for example, as you said, at the Gradacac front - the brigade
21 would use mobilised resources from Prijedor municipality; right?
22 A. We had military vehicles and military machinery that went with us
23 to the Gradacac front.
24 Q. Yes, I understand that, but can you please answer my question.
25 A. And, yes, we used them. Yes.
1 Q. So my question was: If you -- your units and your machines were
2 away at the front and the 43rd Brigade or other units in Prijedor needed
3 to dig a trench, or build a road, something that would have been done by
4 your unit and by the machines of your units, now would they use mobilised
5 resources from Prijedor when your unit was away, was not there in
6 Prijedor? That was my question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
8 Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: Base for the question: Which other brigade would be
10 on the Prijedor area, if he knows whether ever another brigade would be
11 in Prijedor area.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's not an objection, as a matter of fact. It
13 is a question which you'd like to put to the witness which you of course
14 can put --
15 MR. LUKIC: But the basis for the question -- there is no base
16 for this question, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you think there isn't, then that's
18 certainly is a matter which can you raise in re-examination. But since
19 Ms. D'Ascoli is now aware of your concerns and if she puts the question
20 to the witness perhaps again, she may even take that into account.
21 Please proceed.
22 MS. D'ASCOLI:
23 Q. Sir, can you answer my question.
24 MR. LUKIC: I would object, foundation.
25 MS. D'ASCOLI: I -- Your Honour, the question was -- I wasn't
1 referring to the unit of the witness. I think there is a foundation.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. LUKIC: You said if other -- "brigade."
4 MS. D'ASCOLI: No, I didn't say "brigade."
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, you did.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, first of all, we still behave civilised.
7 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Try not to interrupt each other.
9 Perhaps you read the question again. There may be a translation
10 issue, you never know. I don't know whether Mr. Lukic listened in
11 English or not.
12 Would you please put the question to the witness again,
13 Ms. D'Ascoli, and if there's any objection, then --
14 MR. LUKIC: It's line -- it's page 13, Your Honour --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Speakers are kindly asked not to overlap.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, a second ago I said let's not -- let's
17 invite - and that what's I did - Ms. D'Ascoli to again put the question,
18 either exactly in the same words or in slightly different words, to the
20 Please proceed, Ms. D'Ascoli, and once you have put the question
21 to the witness before he starts answering, Mr. Lukic certainly will have
22 a moment to jump up if he thinks that that's what he should do.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. D'ASCOLI:
25 Q. So I will repeat my question.
1 So let's say the 43rd Brigade needed to dig a trench or build a
2 road in Prijedor, and your unit - meaning the engineer battalion of the
3 43rd - with its equipment was elsewhere, was at the front, was at the
4 Gradacac front. Now the brigade, and I mean other units of the brigade,
5 would use mobilised resources from Prijedor? That was my question.
6 A. That is something that I don't know. In my area of work we had
7 all the military vehicles in the field, excavators, machinery for road
8 construction, bulldozers, trucks. All of those machines mostly were with
9 us at the Gradacac front.
10 Q. Okay.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I think you've answered in the very
12 beginning by saying that you don't know, and then you explained something
13 I think you said before.
14 Please proceed.
15 MS. D'ASCOLI: Now I think we still have P7385 on our screen.
16 Can we please move to page 7 in the English and page 9 in the B/C/S.
17 Q. Sir, there is evidence in this case that the 43rd Brigade
18 mobilised resources from the Ljubija mine company. Besides the document
19 that is now on the screen, I can refer to P7319 or P7423. Were you aware
20 of such mobilisation of resources from the RZR Ljubija to the
21 43rd Brigade?
22 A. Yes, I was aware of that. It was mobilised right at the
23 beginning, once we set off there and we also had the FAP trucks with us
24 there, military vehicles, these 110s, 150s, and we had bulldozers. All
25 of that was at the Gradacac front for the main part. As far as I know,
1 all of that was there and that was where we set up roads, provided the
2 entire brigade with timber and so on.
3 Q. Yes, you just described -- yes, what there is in the statement
4 and the fact that you, with the equipment of your battalion, were away
5 from Prijedor. Now, can I direct your attention to the list of motor
6 vehicles, machines, such as graders, excavators, loaders, that we see on
7 this page.
8 MS. D'ASCOLI: In the English, it is split between page 7 and the
9 following page, but the first one will suffice for my purposes.
10 Q. So, sir, you see in the column War Unit the code 4777 which is
11 the code for the 43rd Brigade of the VRS, your brigade; correct?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. And then we see also the code 8316 which was the one for the
14 5th Kozara Brigade; correct?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Then we see two other codes, 6817, 5456. These were VRS brigades
17 not based in Prijedor; right?
18 A. That was all out in the field mostly at the Gradacac front and
19 Brcko, mostly along those two axes, the Prijedor 5th Kozara and the
20 43rd Motorised Brigade.
21 Q. Were you referring to the code 6817 and 5456 or to all of the
23 A. I'm talking about all of the codes, some were in the 5th Kozara
24 Brigade and some in the 43rd Brigade.
25 Q. Okay. So this is a report on the war operations of the mine in
1 the course of 1992. So were you aware that the equipment of the Ljubija
2 mine company was used by these VRS units?
3 A. Yes, yes, I was and it was out there in the field, in Gradacac.
4 MS. D'ASCOLI: So now can we have P7424.
5 Q. Sir, this is a handwritten log, again from the RZR Ljubija, which
6 provides an overview of the allocated and used quantities of fuel for the
7 VRS for the period January 1992 to May 1993. Now, if you look at, for
8 example, entries number 8 or 13 to 19, these are for the dates June to
9 July 1992. We see references to a D8L, a bulldozer; G16, a grader --
11 A. Yes, I see that. This was road construction in Gradacac. We
12 were tunnelling through a hill using a bulldozer that arrived later from
13 Prijedor. This was mainly happening on the Gradacac front.
14 Q. Now, sir, if you look at the -- for example, entry -- yes,
15 number 19 or number 13 as well as number 15, you see the mention of Luke,
16 Luke dump site. Now, were you aware that this Luke site is on
17 RZR Ljubija property?
18 A. Yes, I see that.
19 Q. Are you aware that this site is on the RZR Ljubija property?
20 A. I didn't know that. I didn't know any of that. All I know is
21 that the machine came up there to Gradacac, that's the dozer, the
22 bulldozer, and we were constructing roads, detours leading to Gradacac.
23 Q. Okay. We have seen that there were a number of bulldozers from
24 the list. Now you said you don't -- you didn't know that this site was
25 on RZR Ljubija property. You said you had never been present in
1 Tomasica; right?
2 A. No, no, I was never up there, no. No.
3 Q. And, in particular, you were not there between June or July 1992
4 and -- well, you said you were at the front until 1995. So you had no
5 idea what was going on at Tomasica or on the RZR Ljubija mine property
6 during that period; right?
7 A. I didn't know anything until a while back when the exhumations
8 were carried out. I didn't even know about the camp. I spent most of
9 the time at the front. My commander and the chief spent more time at the
10 command and in Prijedor, and they would come and go there. So I don't
11 know about them.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. They probably know more than I do. I was at the front. I was
14 this with the troops.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps -- I've one question seeking clarification.
16 Looking at this list and looking at the -- what is read to you,
17 such as I think it was D8L-4/51, is that a type of equipment or is that a
18 single piece of equipment?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't understand
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking you because when it was read to you, you
22 said: This was road construction in Gradacac.
23 Now, how would you know -- if these are not individual pieces of
24 equipment, how would you know whether this was a reference to a similar
25 piece of equipment which was not in Gradacac? I mean, how are you able
1 to link this description to the equipment that was in Gradacac?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that we had rented this more
3 powerful machine, this bulldozer, in order to work on an alternate route,
4 on a detour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you used such a machine -
6 that's your recollection - but do you know whether another machine of the
7 same type was used elsewhere, that is, in another location than Gradacac?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't in Prijedor at all.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I understand that. Now, do you have any
12 explanation as to the mentioning of Luke in some of these -- could you --
13 would you please wait until I have finished my question.
14 Do you have any explanation as to why the word "Luke" appears in
15 this list in the same line with the equipment D8L/51 or other equipment?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have an explanation because
17 I'm not familiar with that abbreviation. I don't know what it means.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You mean what --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what it means.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- what Luke means or what ...
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Yes, I don't know
22 what these numbers mean either. It's an abbreviation of some sort.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You mean the numbers D8L/51, you don't know what
24 that stands for?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what that stands for.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it refresh your memory if it was an
2 abbreviation for a specific type of equipment, type of machinery?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that that's an
4 abbreviation for some kind of machinery. I mean, really, I don't know
5 what it stands for. I see lower down that there is another mention of
6 that underneath also, another 51.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. D'ASCOLI: Just a second. I'll read the last answers. Just
10 a second. Okay.
11 Q. So, sir, do you agree that you don't have any basis to say -- out
12 of the resources and machines mobilised from the RZR Ljubija, you don't
13 have any basis to say which ones and how many stayed in Prijedor on
14 RZR Ljubija mine property and which ones, and how many, were sent - as
15 you claim - to the Gradacac front?
16 A. I don't know. I don't know what was done in Prijedor. This is
17 something that the people in the brigade command probably know, because
18 all the orders came from them.
19 Q. And is there any reason for which you can exclude that parts of
20 the VRS that had stayed in Prijedor could have been involved in the
21 burial of bodies at Tomasica with resources, machines, mobilised from the
22 RZR Ljubija? Is there any reason for which you can exclude that?
23 A. That I don't know. I'm not aware of any of that, because I was
24 out in the field continuously. I was in Gradacac and in -- and I don't
25 know what was going on in Prijedor. I have no idea.
1 Q. Thank you, sir.
2 MS. D'ASCOLI: I don't have further questions, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. D'Ascoli.
4 Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: I hope we'll -- if we can continue for next five to
6 ten minutes, maybe we could finish.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If that is -- if that would be agreeable to
8 Mr. Mladic as well, then we could finish the videolink in five to ten
10 MR. LUKIC: We -- if I could continue, we are -- I need this
12 JUDGE ORIE: The same document?
13 MR. LUKIC: The same document that is in front of us --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. LUKIC: -- which is P7424.
16 JUDGE ORIE: It's still on our screens.
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, thank you.
18 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vujcic, we can see here under number 2 for
20 the 28th of May that it states:
21 "D8/50. Road to Luke ..."
22 Let me ask you: Do you know how often, for example, in
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina there would be an area named Luke? Is that a common
24 name for some region, or is that something specific for Prijedor? Did
25 you come across places or areas with the same name in other
2 A. I don't know what it means, "road to Luke," Luka ... I don't know
4 Q. In late May 1992, were you constructing some roads in the
5 municipality of Prijedor?
6 A. No. We went directly to Gradacac in May.
7 Q. Let me ask you now: Did any other unit from the 43rd Brigade
8 have the ability to do mining, road construction, laying mines? Could
9 the infantry do that or the communications unit?
10 A. Well, those who were in Prijedor would probably have been able to
11 do that. I know that my engineering unit didn't do any of that because
12 we had our hands full at Gradacac.
13 Q. Was there any part of your engineering unit that stayed in
15 A. Yes, we did have those workmen in Prijedor who repaired machines
16 when they broke down. There was perhaps one squad.
17 Q. I've just found out - Mr. Ivetic, my colleague, is showing me -
18 training ground Luke, Gradacac.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you were in Gradacac, did you hear about a part of Gradacac
21 called Luke?
22 A. There are many Lukes there, because it's mostly high ground and
23 Luke is low ground. So when you construct a road, you go to the low
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, when Mr. Ivetic whispered in your ear,
1 Luke training ground, did he tell you that you if you would use that in a
2 question that it would be highly leading and that that's what you're
3 supposed not to do, or didn't he tell you?
4 MR. LUKIC: But I think --
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- no, Mr. Lukic, it's leading. What you could have
6 asked was: Do you know of any location close to Gradacac known by the
7 name Luke or Luka? That's phrasing the question rather than to introduce
8 already that there must be a place where there's a training ground. And
9 let's leave it to that. Let's move on. The question has been put. The
10 question has been answered.
11 Let's move on.
12 MR. LUKIC: But also the witness explained actually what kind
13 of --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- yes, the witness gave an answer which did not
15 follow your lead. That doesn't make the question any less leading. And
16 not any less inappropriate.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Can we have on our screens P3841, please. [Interpretation] In the
20 B/C/S, we need page 2; in English, page 5. The fourth column, that's
21 where we began.
22 [In English] Then we move to the next -- top of the next
23 paragraph, 5 in B/C/S, please, page 2. Page 2. Yes. Thank you.
24 Q. [Interpretation] It was put to you that Saint Vitus Day was 28th
25 June 1992. When did you set off from Prijedor to the corridor?
1 A. To the corridor? We set off by bus from the barracks. We went
2 by bus from the barracks.
3 Q. But do you remember when?
4 A. I cannot remember now when. Usually you set off in the morning.
5 Q. I mean the date. Did you set out on the 28th of June, 1992, when
6 the corridor was opened up, or before that time?
7 A. Later. We set out later. Because we returned later from the
8 Croatian theatre of war. Because, first, we had to hand over the
9 minefields to the Nepalese battalion of the UNPROFOR. So we arrived late
10 at the corridor. I think a month later, if I remember well.
11 Q. After the corridor was opened up. Towards the end of July or in
13 A. Yes, something like that. May, June, July.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get clarification.
15 Sir, when you say you arrived there later, you arrived later than
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, later than our brigade.
18 After the infantry battalions left. Because we stayed on at the Croatian
19 theatre of war to turn over the minefields and the rest to the Nepalese
20 battalion of the UNPROFOR. I can't remember exactly how long after the
21 departure of the brigade with the infantry battalions. But they went
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you able to remember whether you went there on
24 or before the 28th of June?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Around that time, yes. As far as I
1 can remember.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can't place it whether it was before the 28th
3 or after the 28th?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember now.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a long time ago.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Perhaps we could link it to an event. Did you arrive before the
9 corridor was opened up, or did you arrive when the corridor had already
10 been opened up?
11 A. The corridor had already been opened up. That's when we
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vujcic. We have nothing further.
14 A. Welcome.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. D'Ascoli.
16 MS. D'ASCOLI: Nothing further, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing further.
18 Mr. Vujcic, this concludes your testimony. I'd like to thank you
19 very much for coming to the videolink location and for answering all the
20 questions that were put to you, put to you by the parties, put to you by
21 the Bench. Therefore, again, thank you. And I wish you a safe return
22 home again.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you too. Thanks.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar at the videolink location, we can
25 conclude the videolink now and we'll continue here in The Hague. Thank
1 you for your assistance.
2 We take a break, and we'll resume --
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 11.00.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
7 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Lukic, I was informed -- the
10 Chamber was informed that there was a matter you'd like to raise and
11 perhaps we should do that in private session?
12 MR. LUKIC: Correct, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then we move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Page 41519 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Mr. Lukic, I had one or two on my list as well, but let's see
20 whether you have the same.
21 MR. LUKIC: First, I see that we have the completely new set of
22 our learned friends from the opposite side. But we would ask the
23 Prosecution if we can stipulate that there is a Luke area in Gradacac
24 municipality; and if we cannot stipulate that, since that issue arose in
25 this cross-examination, we would like to upload two documents with this
1 site in Gradacac area, and one of them even contains the exact
2 co-ordinates for that place. That's one matter.
3 And the other matter is I forget yesterday to propose again to
4 have D00557 MFI'd until we propose the portions of the document. We do
5 not intend to -- we do not intend to offer the whole document into
6 evidence but we would make a selection and - in communication with our
7 learned friends from the opposite if they want to include anything from
8 that book or pamphlet - then --
9 JUDGE ORIE: You mean "The Islamic Declaration"?
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Two matters.
12 First, Luke -- something was unclear to me, Mr. Lukic. When you
13 introduced that as a training site, was there -- was that in evidence
14 anywhere up till this moment or did it spontaneously come up and being
15 something -- a new element hidden in your question? I just don't
17 MR. LUKIC: I cannot tell you because Luke you can find in any
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, that's not my question. My question was:
20 Whether anywhere in the evidence we find a reference to Luke as a
21 training site close to Gradacac?
22 MR. LUKIC: I don't know by heart.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. LUKIC: I cannot tell you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, so apparently --
1 MR. LUKIC: But I'll check, maybe I can check.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if you introduce it in a question without
3 knowing --
4 MR. LUKIC: It's not likely, I can tell you, but I cannot exclude
5 the possibility.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. That's one.
7 Then stipulation about a place called Luke near Gradacac.
8 MR. WEBER: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. WEBER: Of course, any additional information that counsel
11 would have regarding information on the record would assist. Other than
12 that, I will speak to my colleagues and get back to the Chamber in terms
13 of the particular question concerning the stipulation today.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's one.
15 Then the second issue was about - and let me just check.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's the selection from "The Islamic Declaration."
18 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, the Prosecution has considered its
19 position with respect to this, and I do understand that the Chamber has
20 inquired about the Defence submissions on multiple occasions about it.
21 We further considered it and discussed it with the Defence, and we
22 indicated that it may be best actually to have the complete document in
23 evidence. And we did -- I was informed subsequent to my last time up
24 about this document, that there had been discussions to actually allow
25 the whole document into evidence. So I appreciate Mr. Lukic's patience
1 with this, but that would be our position.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, of course, the Chamber finds itself in a bit of
3 an odd position because we are blamed for opposing admission of
4 "The Islamic Declaration," which we strongly rejected yesterday. At the
5 same time, if you give us a document of hundred pages with quite a bit of
6 substance and then say: You, Chamber, do whatever you want to do with
7 it, that's of course another matter because Chamber and the Chamber staff
8 will start reading it, will start analysing it, even if it's not related
9 to -- major portions are not related to any questions put to a witness.
10 And it seems that the parties now and then forget that if you dump
11 something into evidence, that this Chamber takes evidence seriously, that
12 is, that we have to look at it. And that's the one and only reason
13 perhaps why we were a bit reluctant to immediately admit it into evidence
14 in its entirety, and not in any way what was suggested by the Defence
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I add one word about translation. There is
17 no translation. We have an English version, a different publication with
18 many differences with respect to the B/C/S original. That -- in fact two
19 originals, and therefore before we discuss the matter and decide on it,
20 we should know if it is really necessary to ask CLSS to produce a new
21 translation of the entire book.
22 MR. LUKIC: We did it already, Your Honour, we sent it to CLSS.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The whole of it?
24 MR. LUKIC: Yeah. If it's all of it now, we'll have to have your
25 help on that issue because CLSS refuses to translate books or documents
1 of that size.
2 JUDGE ORIE: When did you do that, Mr. Lukic?
3 MR. LUKIC: Recently, when the problem arose, that the
4 translation is not correct --
5 JUDGE ORIE: That is yesterday?
6 MR. LUKIC: Then it's yesterday, yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Of course, this Chamber is always willing
8 to assist the parties in getting the translations they need. I think
9 that's constant approach we've taken. At the same time, I think that on
10 the basis of the English version that exists, that the parties would be
11 encouraged to see if we really need all of it, again for the reasons --
12 even if Prosecution would not oppose it and it may be clear that strong
13 positions -- apparently that's at least what -- that's my first
14 impression not having analysed it, strong positions as to an Islamic
15 state and religion and statehood are expressed there, I can see the
16 relevance, but I don't know whether that's everywhere, whether it's all
17 relevant. And before you, I would say, condemn us to have to read it all
18 where there was no reason to introduce it through witnesses, all of it,
19 you get the Chamber's support, but you first seriously should discuss
20 with the Prosecution whether we need it all because ten pages of
21 translation takes a lot of time and resources. Again, if you agree on
22 the matter, if you also make it clear that it is relevant, that we should
23 see it all, then you get our full support; but you should first do that
24 job together.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour the position of Defence is not that
1 we need the whole, but we want to accommodate the Prosecution.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. LUKIC: If they want the whole thing, then it's fine with the
4 Defence; otherwise, we would rather have just portions.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then the Prosecution should make clear why
6 they want more than the Defence wants, where it seems to me at least that
7 "The Islamic Declaration" is a -- something the Defence wants to rely
8 upon in its defence.
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, yes --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. LUKIC: But we have some portions -- because some portions
12 are, I think, not relevant.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
14 Mr. Weber, would you please -- apart from saying let's dump it as
15 a whole, could you please make a serious effort to -- for
16 contextualisation to select any portions in addition what the Defence
17 wants to have in?
18 MR. WEBER: Of course, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then we'll hear from you -- well, let's
20 say, not later than Monday because -- yes? So that -- and if CLSS is
21 starting to translate -- perhaps they could start with the portions --
22 MR. LUKIC: I was corrected, Your Honour. I didn't transfer the
23 message correctly. Our Case Manager just informed us that he is still
24 waiting which parts he should send, so it's not sent yet.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's fine. But awaiting your -- your
1 agreement on what portions should be sent for translation, I think you
2 want to add something to what is already submitted by the Defence. So
3 therefore, you could also say, To start with, not the whole book but
4 these and these portions which were dealt with in court or these and
5 these pages we have selected, and then we don't face further delays.
6 MR. LUKIC: I will ask to be excused. I'll continue working on
7 that immediately.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, before you leave the courtroom, any
9 other matter you would like to raise? If not, I would have one.
10 MR. LUKIC: Nothing further, Your Honour. I will wait until you
11 deliberate yours and then I will try to ask you to excuse me.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 The -- we expected to receive further in information about
14 ongoing conversations about the Dunjic report the beginning of this week.
15 We're now halfway the week, so the Chamber would like to receive an
17 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, Mr. McCloskey is more informed about
18 this --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. WEBER: -- so if I could defer to him.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Mr. President. We have made our
23 view clear, that we're fine with the Dunjic's report and that
24 Mr. Stankovic relying on Dunjic's report and that our preference is not a
25 whole new Stankovic report and the ball is now in their court on that
1 point. So we were hoping to hear from them today as well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, any thoughts developed on how to proceed?
3 But before you answer that, let me try to understand you, Mr. McCloskey.
4 The Dunjic report has not yet been tendered. It's just -- notice
5 has been given. So your suggestion would be that it would be tendered,
6 that it would be admitted, and that Mr. Stankovic would answer any
7 questions the Prosecution would have in relation to the Dunjic report.
8 And of course, he's not the author of that report, so -- and that is all
9 expertise because Mr. Stankovic would appear as an expert but not on his
10 on expert report.
11 I can imagine that under those circumstances that it would be
12 appropriate that Mr. Stankovic writes a very, very, very short expert
13 report, which is that he has read Mr. Dunjic's report and that he agrees
14 with it or that he has no comments on it from his own expertise, or that
15 he says, Well, page 15, that and that conclusion, I would not adopt that.
16 Or -- well, to -- to introduce Mr. Stankovic as expert because, of
17 course, we can't call Mr. Dunjic as expert. At the same time,
18 Mr. Stankovic hasn't produced that report, and I take it that you would
19 still would like to have an opportunity to put questions to an expert
20 about Mr. Dunjic, his report.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, and I was thinking the same
23 thing. Anything brief and to the point even going through and making
24 comments on individual parts of Dr. Dunjic's report is perfectly fine.
25 In addition, what I had mentioned to the Defence is Dr. Dunjic
1 testified at length in the Karadzic case based on a report that is very
2 similar to his Mladic report. And as far as I'm concerned, his testimony
3 from Karadzic could come in, which is fully cross-examined, and avoid the
4 entire problem. I understand they want a live witness and so that's what
5 we are trying to work out, that the live witness come, defend the report,
6 defend his own views of the report, gets cross-examined, and we get this
7 done in a -- hopefully before the end of January is --
8 JUDGE ORIE: I was exploring what you had on your mind because
9 the technicalities involved require some further thoughts about what is
10 in evidence, who testifies about what, own report, someone else's report,
11 what's the basis for that, does he appear as a witness or as an expert
12 witness. These are technical matters which should be -- thoroughly be
13 considered before we -- before the parties suggest a final solution.
14 Mr. Lukic, apart from these technicalities, the main issue, that
15 is, we have a report of which is given notice to the Chamber and to the
16 Prosecution, it's not tendered yet. It is -- what are your plans?
17 MR. LUKIC: Our plan is to bring Mr. Stankovic as soon as
18 possible --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: -- but he has to tell us when. I cannot promise you
21 the date.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you do not intend to ask Mr. Stankovic to
23 write a whole new report. We would work --
24 MR. LUKIC: It's not our intention.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The starting point --
1 MR. LUKIC: It's not our intention.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's not your intention.
3 MR. LUKIC: But he might need to do some work on the report. He
4 has to go through the report, to check, to see if he accepts all the
5 parts or if he can talk about all the parts, so still there is some time
6 required for him to go through the report.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see --
8 MR. LUKIC: But it's not the intention to have a new report.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, to familiarise -- that Mr. Stankovic
10 familiarises himself with the content of the report, that's understood.
11 And that, of course, takes far less time than to produce a report, but it
12 certainly will take some time.
13 Second, the transcript of the cross-examination of Mr. Dunjic in
14 Karadzic case, is there any -- any objection to -- because I take it that
15 that's where Mr. Dunjic explained and answered further questions in
16 relation to a report which is, to some extent, similar - if I understand
17 you well - to the report produced in the Mladic case.
18 MR. LUKIC: I -- I cannot give you the answer now. You know that
19 we objected to the use of cross-examination from another case, as it was
20 the proposal at the beginning of the Defence case. So now we would have
21 to depart to that basic standpoint of the Defence, but of course --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there is -- of course the situation is
24 MR. LUKIC: -- yeah, exactly. I -- the situation is completely
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then -- apparently there is no
2 disagreement that no full new report should be drafted and that
3 Mr. Stankovic would familiarize himself and would check whether he would
4 agree. Then could you further discuss with Prosecution and urgently how
5 to deal with the cross-examination in the Karadzic case because that is
6 then an open issue at this moment.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, a solution in which the Dunjic report
10 would admit into evidence without Mr. Stankovic further explaining,
11 without -- without relying on the cross-examination of Mr. Dunjic in the
12 Karadzic case, would that be acceptable for you? So that's just a report
13 in and that's it, 94 bis (C) -- no you don't ask for cross-examination.
14 Of course, you couldn't ask for cross-examination but no -- nothing to
15 replace that?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: My first thought is I'm very, very tempted if I
17 thought the Defence was considering that. That is not something that I
18 had as an option, but I would, of course, discuss that with Mr. Tieger
19 but I am very tempted to do that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Just to have it admitted --
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Have it admitted and we'll argue it in the
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no Mr. Stankovic, no cross-examination in the
24 Karadzic case --
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's a very simple and basic thing which I am
1 very tempted --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- I need to think about it with Mr. Tieger --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's not what you offered a minute ago?
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, because I didn't think they would go for
6 that. I'm looking for a creative solution. I think that may be an
7 excellent solution, but they wanted a witness is what I understood.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, now we have various options, either with
9 Mr. Stankovic who would then have to prepare a while and then would you
10 have to consider how to present him as an expert witness or as a
11 witness -- and most likely as an expert witness. The other option - or
12 in combination with that first one - would be the introduction of the
13 Karadzic cross-examination or perhaps some of the examination-in-chief as
14 well from Mr. Dunjic. And the third option still considered by the
15 Prosecution, although not yet having decided because they didn't thought
16 you would accept that, that is just to have the expert report in and then
17 leave it to argument later.
18 I'm not asking a final decision now, but just to say: No
19 Stankovic, no cross-examination, we have the report and we'll argue on
20 the basis of that report, and then we'll find out what the merits of the
21 report and what the evidentiary value of it is.
22 MR. LUKIC: We will have in mind the third option as well,
23 Your Honour, but I don't have the answer at this moment.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No. Okay. That's fine. Could we hear not any
25 later than by Monday.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Friday we're not sitting. Monday, not close of
3 business, but start of business.
4 MR. LUKIC: Can we -- sometime is a bit difficult to reach
5 Professor Stankovic, so --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you make up your mind that you don't need
7 him, then you don't need to reach him either. So on that option --
8 MR. LUKIC: The third option.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The third option, you don't need him. So you can
10 discuss that or think about it, but we would like to hear from you anyhow
11 Monday morning and -- and Mr. Mladic can consult at low volume.
12 I think we have sufficiently discussed the matter at this moment.
13 Let's move on and let's invite the witness to re-enter the courtroom.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one point.
15 Mr. Lukic, in fact to make a decision on all three options, you
16 don't need Mr. Stankovic. You'd make the decision and then you tell
17 Mr. Stankovic what you have decided. If you need him, you tell him you
18 need him; if you don't, you tell him: We don't need you any longer on
19 the Dunjic case. So you really don't need Mr. Stankovic to make up your
20 mind. It's your course of action that you must decide on.
21 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, but if we decide that we need him still, then
22 we have to work with him --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Of course, you have got to work with him, but you
24 can give us the decision and then carry on to work with him.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
2 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, if I could address a housekeeping
3 matter while the witness is coming in.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. WEBER: Yesterday at transcript page 41747, Exhibit P07668
6 was marked for identification pending a revised translation of the list
7 of names. The revised translation has been uploaded into e-court under
8 document ID 0649-2932-1-ET.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution kindly requests that the
11 Court Officer be asked to replace the current translation with the
12 revised version and the document be admitted into evidence. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we finalise this right away.
14 Madam Registrar, the translation attached to Exhibit P07668
15 should be replaced by the newly uploaded revised translation of that list
16 of names, then including ranks, I take it, identified as a document under
17 doc ID 0649-2932-1-ET and you are accordingly instructed.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The number should be corrected. It should be
20 JUDGE ORIE: If I misread, then -- well, that's hereby clear. It
21 wasn't admitted yet, so P07668 is hereby admitted.
22 Witness, we'll continue. That's to say, that Mr. Weber will
23 continue his cross-examination. I remind you that you're still bound by
24 the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.
25 You may proceed.
1 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33511. At
2 the outset here, I'm going to kindly ask the Court Officer to also hand a
3 hard copy of this document to the witness.
4 WITNESS: MITAR KOVAC [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]
7 Q. Yesterday when we were discussing paragraph 4.220 of your report
8 and the Wikipedia page, the Trial Chamber inquired about your cited
9 source in footnote 464, the Slobodna Dalmacija interview of
10 Emin Garaplija. This interview is now on the screen before us and a hard
11 copy has been provided to you.
12 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 4 of both
14 Q. During this interview, there is only one question and answer that
15 appears to relate to the subject of the paragraph in your report. The
16 interviewer asks:
17 "Who murdered the young couple, a Muslim woman and a Serb man, on
18 one bridge in Sarajevo, on the line of separation? That crime outraged
19 the whole world and Serbs were blamed for it."
20 He then, Garaplija, answered:
21 "That is not true. This was perfidious propaganda of the people
22 who gave orders to Seve. Herenda was specific in connection with that
23 crime in his statement and stated that the couple had been murdered by
24 Dragan Bozic from a sniper rifle. Herenda even described the spot from
25 which Bozic killed them."
1 Here, in this article, there are no references to the names of
2 the couple Admira and Bosko; correct?
3 A. Perhaps they're not mentioned in the article itself, but just
4 looking at it briefly, the gist is the same in the article. Primarily
5 that means that it's what I insisted on, and that was that the fire came
6 from members of the Seve units and this is not something that's in
7 dispute on the basis of this text either.
8 Q. Sir, please focus on my questions because my question
9 specifically pertains to the text that appears in the article. There is
10 no discussion of how Bosko was shot first and then Admira was wounded and
11 died ten minutes later; right?
12 A. From my point of view and from the point of view of a military
13 expertise, that is not something that was really crucial and I didn't put
14 any time into that. What was important to me was the media aspect of it,
15 the misuse of information.
16 Q. Sir, could you please answer my question. That text is not --
17 there's no discussion of that in that text in that article; right?
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Weber, are we sure we have the right B/C/S
19 page on the screen?
20 MR. WEBER: It was page 4 of the B/C/S.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
22 MR. WEBER: Right under the title, towards the top third of the
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sequence I read a few sources
25 about the sequence, this text, I read articles from the press, I read
1 books, but mostly I was dealing with the untruthfulness of the whole
2 incident. I did not deal with who fired first and what the sequence was
3 and exactly how it happened. What was important to me was that the crime
4 was ascribed to the Serb side, whereas it was actually carried out by
5 members of the Seve units; that was what I was focussing on.
6 MR. WEBER:
7 Q. Sir, I don't think you still have answered my question, but I'll
8 give you one more chance. There's no mention of UN forces or how the
9 bodies were buried in the Lav cemetery in 1996, according to the wishes
10 of Admira's parents, in the article; correct?
11 A. Yes, but Herenda's statement is referred to here that -- he is
12 quoted here as a member, "I fired them when they fell ..." and so on and
13 so forth. And then on the second page, paragraphs 3 to 6. So now I
14 couldn't -- I cannot remember all the different six to ten sources that I
15 used in my report. It's a bit difficult now to recall exactly which
16 sentence came from which source. I was really interested in the essence
17 of the case, and I spoke about that a little bit earlier. I did not deal
18 with the killing on the Vrbanija bridge, but I was dealing with making
19 value judgements about this particular event.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You've repeated that now many times; that's clear.
21 Your answer started with a "yes," which was an answer to the question.
22 Referring to the many, many sources, of which only one is found
23 in the footnote, was Wikipedia one of the sources?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of the sources that was
25 consulted, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the language used very much similar; is
2 that coincidence or is that ...?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on a number of sources, if
4 that is the formulation that was the closest reflection of the actual
5 incident, then it's possible that it was taken as the basis for the
6 actual quote itself.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have the B/C/S version
9 on the screen of 1D5358, and if we could go to page 177 of the B/C/S.
10 And next to it, if we could please have the -- bring back up the B/C/S
11 version of 65 ter 33486. And if we could please focus on paragraph 4.220
12 at the bottom.
13 Q. Sir, here we have again your report and also the part of the
14 Wikipedia page. In the highlighted part, we see the names of the couple
15 are mentioned, just like in your report; an explanation of how Bosko was
16 shot first and then Admira was wounded ten minutes later; the reference
17 to the UN forces and how the bodies were buried in the Lav cemetery in
18 1996. The text is almost identical to your report with the minor
19 modification that was made yesterday. This part of your report comes
20 from Wikipedia; correct?
21 A. Not just Wikipedia. This same conclusion was published in a
22 series of articles, both in the Serbian and the Bosniak press, and the
23 essence is not changed.
24 Q. Sir, the only source that you cite for this text or even related
25 to this text in your paragraph is the article that you have before you.
1 This text appears nowhere in that article; correct?
2 A. The formulation doesn't appear, but the essence does. I don't
3 see that it's of dispute if you find out the essence from a number of
4 sources and then cite one source. For one passage, you cannot cite four
5 or five sources that were consulted, because in that case the expert
6 report would not have 600 footnotes but would have thousands.
7 Q. Sir, the article that you contain -- that you have in front of
8 you, which is your one source, does not contain the information that you
9 have in this paragraph; correct? It may refer to the same event, but it
10 definitely does not contain the same details that you describe in your
12 A. The data is not linked to the names or this part that has to do
13 with the reburial in the Lav cemetery in Sarajevo, but these are facts
14 that are beyond dispute.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, please move on.
16 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would
17 tender 65 ters 33486 and 33511 into evidence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 33486 receives
20 Exhibit Number P7670. 65 ter number 33511 receives Exhibit Number P7671,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P7670 and P7671 are admitted into evidence.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. Are there any other direct lifts from Wikipedia in your report
25 that you have not cited to?
1 A. There are internal links, for example, there are key events.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you were on your feet.
3 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I don't know if it's a matter of translation,
4 but I neither heard in the B/C/S nor in the English the formulation that
5 Mr. Weber has suggested as to Wikipedia.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then -- could you please repeat your
7 question, Mr. Weber, slowly.
8 MR. WEBER: Okay.
9 Q. Are there any other portions of your report where you directly
10 lift language from Wikipedia?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Without citing to it.
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. Without citing to it?
14 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are many parts where I
16 consulted Wikipedia, but not literally but just as one of the sources.
17 It was not cited as a source, though, but other sources were cited that
18 spoke about the same event or the same problem.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But part of the question was that you would have
20 lifted languages, that is, means - if I understand you well, Mr. Weber -
21 that you used completely or to a very large extent the text, the
22 language, used on the Wikipedia page without citing it.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot really remember this
24 completely now.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. Did you have the opportunity to review the paragraphs from the
3 Radinovic reports and compare them to your report?
4 A. Yes. I used the afternoon to carry out this task in detail, and
5 I can tell you what my analysis showed --
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... thank you very much for
7 doing that. There were paragraphs that were listed on that sheet that
8 contained substantially similar text to those in the Radinovic reports;
10 A. If I may just state the conclusions of the analysis.
11 Q. Sir, if could you answer --
12 JUDGE ORIE: If you could first answer the question, Witness, and
13 then you'll be given an opportunity to briefly state the conclusions of
14 your analysis.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Out of the 54 paragraphs given in
16 the text, 35 were paraphrased ranging from 10 to 90 per cent. On
17 average, we're talking about 65 per cent.
18 As for 16 paragraphs, there are indirect quotes and they would be
19 given in the next paragraph or would be covering two pages. There are
20 quotes, and I can say what they are about. Three quotes were dropped
21 from the paragraphs. They do exist. Out of the 54 paragraphs, there are
22 quotes for three paragraphs. And if you need more details about the
23 citations, I can provide them.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. Just if we could ask -- if I could ask a couple of
1 question [sic].
2 In the paragraphs in your report that were listed, there were no
3 citations to General Radinovic; correct?
4 A. He is cited in these 19 paragraphs that I mentioned a moment ago,
5 whereas in the 35 paragraphs that are paraphrased and relate to facts -
6 and I can tell you what the nature of the concepts is, it's geographic
7 concepts and the structure of forces and such things - the same thing is
8 expressed in a different way in the percentage that I have stated.
9 Q. Sir, I see that you probably went through that quite carefully.
10 Did you mark the individual paragraphs that you -- the 35 that you agree
11 with and the ones that you feel that you do attribute to Mr. Radinovic or
12 do not have a substantial overlap, did you mark those?
13 A. Yes. Every one is marked either as paraphrased or expressed
14 differently. Sixteen citations have already been given for the said
16 Q. If it's okay with you and with the Chamber - I don't want to
17 belabour going through all 50 examples - but if we could see that list,
18 it would be appreciated.
19 A. [In English] Yeah, okay.
20 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, while the review might answer
21 this for us, but I note that two different numbers have appeared in the
22 translation for the paragraphs with citations, both 16 and 19, although
23 16 has been used twice. So I don't know which is the correct number,
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could it be shown to the Defence as well.
1 I don't know whether this document would greatly assist you,
2 Mr. Weber, but just have a look at it. Another way of dealing with the
3 matter would be to ask the witness to write down the numbers of the
4 paragraphs of the category of the 19 or 16, but perhaps you have a look
5 at it during the next break and then we'll see how we can perhaps --
6 MR. WEBER: I was being hopeful that the list would illuminate
7 that, but if it doesn't, it doesn't.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes -- well, I don't know. I can't read the
10 MR. WEBER: If we could just before the break just look at one or
11 two examples.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And perhaps -- if the witness for the moment
13 keeps his own note -- well, perhaps you ...
14 MR. WEBER: Okay. This is helpful.
15 JUDGE ORIE: It's helpful.
16 MR. WEBER: I might not understand the language, but I can make
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, it's helpful. Okay, then --
19 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 1D5358,
20 page 67 of the B/C/S; and next to it, 65 ter 1D06026, page 18.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And perhaps to assist the witness in his
22 recollection, wouldn't it be fair that you would be given now his notes
23 for a second so that if you ask any questions that he can familiarise
24 himself again with what he wrote about it. And we are at what number?
25 Perhaps a copy could be made of the -- but first, give it to the witness.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. Sir, I'd like to focus your attention to paragraph 2.68 of your
3 report, which is on the left-hand side of the screen; and then in
4 General Radinovic's 2002 Galic report, if we could focus on paragraphs 37
5 and 38 at the bottom page.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MR. WEBER: Yes.
8 Q. This paragraph of your report relates to how command and control
9 functioned in the VRS. First of all, can you confirm that the
10 paragraph of your report, number 2.68, does not contain any citations?
11 A. Right, it does not. And it's 70 per cent paraphrased from
12 paragraphs 37 and 38 of the report of Mr. Radinovic.
13 Q. And I noted that you said it was 70 per cent paraphrased in your
14 notes, but could you please look at the text that's sitting in front of
15 you. The fact is that your paragraph is almost identical in language to
16 paragraphs 37 and 38 of Mr. Radinovic's report; correct?
17 A. In the first part, yes.
18 Q. I see the first -- paragraph 37 corresponds to the first sentence
19 of your report. Could you continue in paragraph 38, starting with the
20 second sentence in paragraph 2.68 of your report.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So General Radinovic's report is almost identical to yours in
23 text up to the words that we see towards the end of paragraph 38 that say
24 "nivo i komandovanja"; is that correct?
25 A. Up to the words "nivo i komandovanja," halfway through the third
2 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I note that appears twice in the paragraph. I
3 don't know if counsel was aware of that.
4 MR. WEBER: Yes. I was speaking from the -- thank you very much.
5 I was speaking from the reference to it, the second line from the bottom
6 of the page.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The right side of the screen.
8 MR. WEBER: The right side of the screen. Thank you.
9 Q. It's almost identical to the text of your paragraph, correct, up
10 until that point, paragraphs 37 and 38?
11 A. Yes, but there is a continuation in my text, the last sentence
12 which summarises the previous vision of the system.
13 Q. I'm sorry, that's a bit confusing to me because I see your
14 paragraph ends with the same phrase; and then in General Radinovic's
15 report, he continues on with the sentence at the very last line of the
16 page "jedini ozbiljni problem."
17 You're referring to General Radinovic' report, not your own;
19 A. Yes, that's the difference in relation to these two paragraphs,
20 so it's 80 per cent identical. The rest of the text is completely
22 Q. So --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue talking about 70 or 80 per cent,
24 we should clearly define 80 per cent or 70 per cent of what? Your text,
25 what percentage of your text is not taken from the other text? Whether
1 the other text gives something more is a different question. What in
2 your text -- 268, paragraph 268, what percentage of that text is taken
3 from the Radinovic report?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's 100 per cent identical in this
5 part from 37 and 38.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we moved from 70 to 80 to now 100. We
7 should always be very carefully if you say for most of them that
8 percentage is taken. If you actually are telling us: By leaving out
9 some portions of the original text, I consider it to be 70 per cent,
10 whereas the 70 per cent you're referring to is for the full 100 per cent
11 identical. Without any reference to the original report, paragraph 268
12 is for the full 100 per cent identical to a text found in Mr. Radinovic's
13 report. Is that well understood?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed -- no, as a matter of fact, rather
16 not proceed, Mr. Weber, because it's time for a break.
17 We'd like to see you back in 20 minute, Witness. Yes, could that
18 be returned to the Prosecution.
19 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honours, I'll make copies over the break.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps that's best if you want to continue to
21 work on that.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break and resume at 25 minutes past
25 --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.
3 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, if may make use of the time.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, if we could -- I think it would
6 expedite just the topic that we were talking, if we could tender the
7 handwritten list that the witness did that we took into our possession.
8 We're having copies made right now. We will have it translated and then
9 come back to the Chamber and formally tender it into evidence, if that's
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then hear from you.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
15 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Q. Mr. Kovac, I'm not going to spend much more time on the matter we
17 were discussing, but I do have another few questions about it.
18 If one of your students copied from another source and didn't
19 cite or attribute that text to that other source, what -- what would you
20 do as their professor?
21 A. Essentially this is an uncited part of the text through the use
22 of about 500 pages of the report of Mr. Radinovic and in question are 35
23 paragraphs, which is a small fraction of that text.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please answer the question. I remind you
25 of that, because we do understand from a message from the Victims and
1 Witness Section that you have commitments elsewhere and that you would
2 very much like to conclude your testimony as quickly as possible. Now,
3 it certainly assists in just answering the questions, instead of two or
4 three times not answering the question and then reminded of the question.
5 So if would you please focus. The question was: What would do you with
6 students if they would -- yes.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please -- please answer the question. Mr. Weber
9 will listen because that's what he's supposed to do.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to ask him to draw his
11 attention that he should be more careful, but I don't see it's a big
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. Sir, my question was just a very simple one. What would you do
16 if one of your students handed in something that didn't cite to another
17 source --
18 MR. IVETIC: Asked and answered.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was the answer.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The question was answered, Mr. Weber. That was when
22 you were perhaps --
23 MR. WEBER: Sorry, I was distracted --
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- dealing with other matters.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although Judge Moloto wants to follow-up.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You say that you wouldn't see it as a very
3 important thing. Am I to understand that you don't consider plagiarism
4 as a very serious breach of professional ethnics by writers?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here there can be no question of
6 something like that. I said that it was only 3 per cent of paraphrasing.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Stop. Let me stop you. I'm not asking you about
8 here. I'm asking you about your student. You're saying you wouldn't see
9 what your student did as very serious, and I'm saying: Do I understand
10 you to say you don't regard plagiarism as a serious breach of
11 professional ethics in writing?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Plagiarism is taking over the
13 greatest part of the text, not individual paragraphs or sentences; and
14 plagiarism is quite clearly defined in scientific work.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... answer my
16 question. Do you regard plagiarism as a serious misconduct or not?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but it's not plagiarism. This
18 is not plagiarism.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... saying this
20 is plagiarism. I'm just asking the question. Thank you so much. You
21 have answered me.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
23 THE WITNESS: Okay.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. Sir, since you rely on General Radinovic's analysis and many of
1 the same documents, I would like to show you part of his testimony in the
2 Karadzic case and then I'll ask you a few questions.
3 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33481,
4 page 7. If we could focus on line 14.
5 Q. At line 14 of transcript page 41447 in the Karadzic case,
6 General Radinovic was asked:
7 "Q. By working on this case, you learned that -- what the six
8 strategic goals were, and they were actually pursued by the Bosnian Serb
9 leadership and also by General Mladic as commander of the VRS Main Staff.
10 They all shared -- shared these six goals; right?
11 "A. Well, I can suppose they were, but I wasn't involved in
12 that, so I don't know. I don't know that first-hand. I learned about it
14 "Q. But by studying the documents you learned that, that they
15 were all pursuing these goals?
16 "A. Yes."
17 First, do you accept that General Radinovic's analysis of the
18 documents is accurate?
19 A. I think it is.
20 Q. By studying the documents for this case, you agree that the
21 Bosnian Serb leadership and General Mladic as commander of the VRS
22 Main Staff all pursued the six strategic objectives; correct?
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would object that now we're getting
24 a different word than is in the transcript. Strategic goals were
25 mentioned and now we're talking about strategic objectives. If we're
1 talking about something, we need to be very specific about it and maybe
2 even make sure that the witness is talking about the same thing that
3 we're referring to.
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I phrased my question fine, and so I'm
5 asking it -- that's how I'd like to put it to the witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then you're free to ask the question as you
7 wish. You are aware now of what Mr. Ivetic said.
8 Could the witness answer the question.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now quickly when this part of the
10 text is so quickly translated, I said the correlation is correct, but I
11 cannot say yes or no before making a comparative analysis of the text of
12 the translation. And as to what I heard, I think the analysis is
13 correct, the analysis of the interdependence, the correlation.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. You personally participated in operations that furthered the
16 strategic objectives during the war; correct?
17 A. I don't know which objectives specifically you mean.
18 Q. But you participated in Operation Lukavac 93; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Operation Lukavac 93 was in furtherance of the six objectives;
22 A. No, no six objectives. Lukavac 39 was a classical military
23 operation to liberate a previously captured area, and you cannot link it
24 to these six goals, six objectives.
25 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you are translated to have said the six
2 objectives or the six goals; that means for you it's the same. I ...
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: There is no difference in
4 our language, in the B/C/S.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to that. We received information from
6 the interpreters about there being no difference in language, in your
8 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
9 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter -- or
10 Exhibit P02508, page 38 of the English and page 41 of the B/C/S.
11 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that, earlier you said:
12 "I don't know which objectives specifically you mean," when
13 reference was made to the six strategic objectives.
14 You are familiar with the strategic objectives, six in number, as
15 they were published; and did you understand it a reference to those six
16 strategic objectives or ...
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean there is no direct relation
18 to the six strategic objectives. This operation was a classical military
19 one and it is not linked to all the objectives.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what you said. But earlier you said: I
21 don't know what objective -- which objective specifically you mean to --
22 in response a question by Mr. Weber. But you are familiar with the six
23 strategic objectives as adopted and published?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am familiar.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. This is a portion of General Mladic's speech at the 34th Assembly
3 of Republika Srpska, and I'd like to direct your attention to the centre
4 of the page before you concerning his discussion of Operation Lukovac 93.
5 General Mladic states:
6 "Further, Mr. President, it would be the biggest mistake and
7 catastrophe if we do not impose our own will regarding these maps and if
8 do not exit to the sea. Please, the operation is Lukavac 93. I have
9 deliberately named it as such because at Treskavica there is a geographic
10 point named Lukavac from which the sea can be seen."
11 The fact is, is that Operation Lukavac 93 was even named in
12 furtherance or related to one of the six strategic objectives, gaining
13 access to the sea; correct?
14 A. This states a wish, a desire; however, the operation itself does
15 not contain the elements that are directly linked to that goal.
16 Q. Now, the first --
17 MR. WEBER: I'm done with the document, unless Your Honours had
18 any other questions on it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We don't have.
20 MR. WEBER: Okay.
21 Q. Now, the first of these strategic objectives was the separation
22 from the other two national communities. What documents did you
23 reference in your report that show the VRS pursued this objective, if you
24 could refer us to any?
25 A. Separation between the two or, rather, all the three ethnic
1 communities was a process that went on the whole time of the war and is
2 linked essentially to all the command documents of all the three armies.
3 Separation between armies meant, in that civil war, also separation
4 between the peoples.
5 Q. So it's your evidence that all of the VRS command documents
6 pursued the first strategic objective of separation from the other
7 national communities; is that what you're saying?
8 A. That's not what I'm saying. I said precisely that it refers to
9 all the three armies and all the three ethnic communities.
10 Q. Are there any documents that you reviewed in your report that
11 come to mind - VRS documents - that clearly indicate to you that the VRS
12 was pursuing the first strategic objective, the separation of the
13 national communities?
14 A. That was done, in fact, even before the Army of Republika Srpska
15 was established. And when I spoke about the Sarajevo theatre of war,
16 during the defence the initial armed formations of the armed people
17 affected the separation between the peoples; and the armies, when they
18 were arrived, when they were established, already found that situation on
19 the ground.
20 Q. We'll come back to this topic. Did you rely on
21 General Radinovic's material because you agreed with his opinions and
23 A. I have known General Radinovic a long time, more than 30 years.
24 He used to be my superior and an example I tried to follow. On many
25 things we agree and we exchanged views and findings in our expert
1 reports, and we lent each other assistance to the extent possible; and I
2 believe that in many things we do agree, but there are also issues where
3 we do not agree completely.
4 Q. Okay. Let's explore this.
5 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33435a.
6 Q. Coming up will be a speech by General Radinovic at a rally for
7 Vojislav Seselj in Belgrade. This speech was published in one of
8 Mr. Seselj's books in 2005. Directing your attention to the second
9 paragraph of the speech where General Radinovic states:
10 "Why was he arrested in the first place? Well, simply because
11 Seselj is a metaphor for Serb patriotism and the Serb identity."
12 Do you agree with General Radinovic that Seselj is a metaphor for
13 Serb patriotism and the Serb identity?
14 A. I didn't even know about this statement of his or about this
15 rally. Personally I do not think in exactly the same way.
16 Q. Okay. You are aware that Vojislav Seselj advocated for the
17 creation of a Greater Serbia, connecting parts of the Republics of
18 Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
19 A. I know about such statements and such acts.
20 Q. Later in the speech General Radinovic states:
21 "I would like -- I would just like to underline a few of my
22 professional -- personal impressions on The Hague, i.e., The Hague
23 Tribunal, where I was misfortunate enough to have had occasion to be
24 several times, trying to testify in the defence of Serbian generals. So
25 further to what I believe most deeply and what I have learned, The Hague
1 Tribunal is a powerful means of the West's extended aggression against
2 our country."
3 Do you share these views with General Radinovic?
4 A. I don't have a complete position on that, but having attended
5 this part of the trial so far, I can see that there is a pretty one-sided
6 views of many matters. In scientific research and work, when one comes
7 to any judgement about events during armed conflict without access to
8 documents or being aware of the positions of the other side, it is
9 impossible to get to the truth. In these entire proceedings so far, what
10 is being done is mostly an analysis of documents and actions of only one
11 side, which points to a conclusion that we cannot talk about objective
12 findings regarding specific events. And then from that aspect, the
13 The Hague and The Hague Tribunal have been recognised among the Serbian
14 people as an instrument whose goal is not to get to the ultimate truth
15 but to confirm an already created media image of the war in the former
16 Yugoslavia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Kovac, I would like to ask you: Can you
18 explain what you mean when you say, and I quote: "But having attended
19 this part of the trial so as far ...," what do you mean by that?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I specifically meant was that
21 as soon as you refer to or try to clarify a specific time-frame of an
22 event, this is prevented, it's interrupted. A specific example:
23 Yesterday when we were speaking about Podvelezje, I tried to provide a
24 couple of assertions regarding the status of inter-ethnic relations at
25 the beginning of the civil war in that area during that period and I was
1 not able to do that.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I hear what you are saying. Later in your
3 previous answer, you said:
4 "In these entire proceedings so far, what is being done is mostly
5 an analysis of documents an actions of only one side."
6 Again, what do you mean by "these entire proceedings so far"?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I mean is my participation so
8 far, my testimony here so far, and that documents, orders, directives,
9 and actions are not being taken into consideration at the same time of
10 the other party to the conflict. Without such an approach in scientific
11 research, I am saying it is impossible to view all of the dimensions of
12 an event or get to the truth. I'm talking about the main principles,
13 scientific research principle, when one is considering conflicts, wars,
14 crisis, and so on because all of these crisis, armed conflicts, wars, are
15 something that occurs from two sides at least and you cannot just look at
16 one side in order to reach a decision. We're talking about the political
17 and military dimension as well when we're considering this.
18 This is what I thought.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I understand your position, but it is not
20 correct. It's not your task to criticise the Chamber.
21 Mr. Weber.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And I have one other question since you are saying
23 this. Was there anything you couldn't write in your report to bring to
24 our attention so that we could consider it? Was there any limitation?
25 Did you experience any limitation in what you would put in your report?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, Your Honours, I
2 apologise. I was not criticizing the work of the Court --
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... well, Witness,
4 we'll read what you said and then we'll consider whether this is
5 criticism or not, but I do understand that you did not intend to do it.
6 But could you please answer my question? You said that it was a
7 problem that it was all one-sided. Now, my question to you is: Was
8 there any limitation in presenting your views on the matter in your
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did have limitations, and I noted
11 those right at the very beginning, and that is the number of documents
12 and their contents that referred to the operations of the Croatian army,
13 the HVO, and Bosnia and Herzegovina. So I was indirectly trying to get
14 to them through monographs, books, studies, and the like that were
15 published in those countries.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Who imposed those limitations?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The actual situation. I could not
18 get those documents. I couldn't receive orders, plans for actions of the
19 B and H army and the Croatian army covering this period.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have you asked the Defence to seek the
21 assistance of the Chamber to get access to materials that you were
22 missing, that were missing?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, several times in conversations
24 with the Defence lawyers, I did note the problem of sources relating to
25 combat documents and plans of the other armies that were party to the
1 civil war.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you say the Tribunal prohibited
3 access to those materials? Because you said that it's the Tribunal who
4 is one-sidedly dealing with the matter. So I'm just -- I'm taking your
5 observation seriously and I want to hear from you in what way this
6 Tribunal, in one way, was an obstacle to get to the sources you thought
7 you would need to write your report.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know in what manner, but I
9 was not able to get those sources.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, there are two different questions. First,
11 whether you had access to the sources; and second, whether this Tribunal
12 contributed specifically in not having access. These are two -- what did
13 you intend to say, that you didn't have access; or that the Tribunal was
14 more or less prohibiting or assisting in you not having access to it? I
15 just would like to know what you were referring to.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not get the documents
17 through the Defence. I don't know what their relationship is vis-ŕ-vis
18 the Court, whether they were able to do so or not.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So you would say, I didn't have access. I asked for
20 it to the Defence, but whether the Tribunal did what it should have do --
21 should do, that is, to facilitate the Defence in getting access to that,
22 that you don't know that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That part I don't know, but I just
24 mentioned the example yesterday about the issue regarding stating
25 information about a specific event, but it was insisted that answers be
1 given on specific items in the order, specifically the order of the
2 Herzegovina Corps.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand what you mean.
4 Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, I rose for a different point so
6 I'm not actually addressing this that you have been -- in relation to. I
7 just wanted to make clear that when the witness was interrupted in terms
8 of explaining that he was not criticising the Chamber, I want to make it
9 clear that he was, at both instances, answering a question posed by
10 Mr. Weber and answering a question posed by Judge Fluegge. So what the
11 witness was doing was answering the questions that were posed to him,
12 which I believe we will all agree is the task of a witness here, to
13 answer questions posed to them. So I want to make sure that in
14 translation there wasn't any kind of inference that the witness is not to
15 answer questions that he's been asked.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No one blames the witness for answering the
17 question, and he sometimes does answer questions. But to say that if
18 there's a duty to answer a question, that doesn't mean that there's no
19 implicit criticism in the answer and the witness can be asked about such
20 criticism. And of course, at the end of this short line of questioning,
21 Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber of course would very much like to know, in view
22 of the answers of the witness, where its assistance was sought to get
23 access to certain documents and where we said: Well, we're not going to
24 assist you.
25 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, my memory is a bit faulty
1 because it's been about three and a half years, but we did ask for access
2 to other cases, including cases against Bosnian Muslim and Croatian
3 defendants. And I believe that some of those motions for access to
4 documents from other cases were denied. I could be wrong because I'm
5 only going off of memory --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, it's important -- by this Chamber?
7 MR. IVETIC: This Chamber has been the only Chamber seized of
8 this case since the beginning of my involvement.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. If we -- if we failed to do what we're
10 supposed to do --
11 MR. LUKIC: Again, I could be wrong. I'm only working off a
12 faint memory that I have.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please refresh your memory in the coming
14 days and let us know by Monday because -- of course this Chamber is
15 trying to do its job as seriously as we can.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 33435a
18 into evidence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P7672, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
22 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33436 page 1
23 of the B/C/S and page 2 of the English translation.
24 Q. Sir, coming up is the -- is a 22 April 1994 Nin interview of
25 General Radinovic. Directing your attention to the question in the
1 centre column, which is part of a discussion on the importance of
2 Gorazde, it states:
3 "You're talking about the significance it has for the Muslims.
4 And for the Serbs?"
5 General Radinovic answers:
6 "What is important for us is that the Muslims do not achieve this
7 goal, that is, that the so-called green transversal be severed. It is
8 important to us that the SR Yugoslavia border towards the former BiH be
9 as secure as possible, and it will be more secure if this section of the
10 border is in possession of the, I hope, new Serb state."
11 The new Serb state that General Radinovic is speaking about in
12 1994 would connect parts of Serbia, the RSK, and the Republika Srpska;
14 A. Yes. Under that name, yes, that is so.
15 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please go to page 2 of the
16 B/C/S and page 5 of the English translation.
17 Q. On this page, in the upper portion of the far right column in
18 front of you, General Radinovic is asked about whether one can find fault
19 with whether some cities were not predominantly -- were not predominantly
20 Serb before the war, mentioning Brcko and Zvornik. He answers:
21 "The matter at hand is that it has to be acknowledged that a
22 state cannot continue to exist if it has no essential prerequisites and
23 one of them is the territorial connectedness of the entities populated by
24 an ethnic majority. In the final demarcation to, an injustice will have
25 certainly been done to different localities but this can be balanced out
1 through a certain exchange of territories."
2 We'll go step by step here. First, the Serb political and
3 military leadership sought a territorial connected state consisting of
4 areas where Serbs would be in an ethnic majority; that's what happened
5 during the war, right?
6 A. That is correct, but that applies to Muslims, Croats, and Serbs.
7 Q. In the areas where the Serbs were not a majority before the war,
8 this would result in an injustice to those living in part -- those living
9 in parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
10 A. At the beginning when I was commenting on the civil war in
11 Bosnia, yes, that led to the transfer of people from one area to another.
12 I don't want to waste time by mentioning figures, but -- for example,
13 after the war, approximately 120.000 Serbs from Sarajevo left that city.
14 They went to live in other areas, to Podrinje, to Semberija, to Posavina.
15 Many of them emigrated to Western countries, including Australia, Canada,
16 and others.
17 Q. Sir, it resulted in an injustice to people in a whole lot of
18 other municipalities too, like Brcko and Zvornik; right?
19 A. In many mixed communities, yes, but this applies to all three
21 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 33436 into evidence.
22 MR. IVETIC: I would object, Your Honours. The part that has
23 been presented to the witness he has answered. The Prosecution's
24 cross-examination that they asked for this witness was on his expert
25 report, his expert opinions. This document has nothing to do with the
1 expert report, nor the expert opinions of this witness. Therefore, they
2 cannot bring in an interview with somebody -- if they want to bring an
3 interview of somebody, they need to bring a witness to authenticate the
4 interview, they need to bring a witness to comply with the Rules for
5 statements taken outside of court that they want to rely upon. So in
6 this sense, since I think we've endeavoured enough of this questioning by
7 Mr. Weber that not relate to the expertise of this witness -- we have yet
8 to even start talking about the expertise of this witness and his
9 conclusions -- and here we are already into the second or third hour.
10 When are we going to get to the expertise of this witness?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
12 MR. WEBER: Your Honour --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic is supposed not to speak aloud; he should
14 stick to that.
15 Mr. Weber.
16 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I am really not going to respond to most
17 of what Ivetic -- Mr. Ivetic just said. Put simply, he has heavily
18 relied on General Radinovic. He's expressed opinions in his report. I
19 think it's perfectly fair game to put to this witness views that
20 General Radinovic held during the war; that's what I've done.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is overruled. At the same time,
23 Mr. Weber, you're encouraged to avoid that we finally deal with
24 Mr. Radinovic only -- irrespective of how much the witness relied on it
25 and rather go to the report primarily.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, thank you very much. Could the
3 Prosecution --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, I think it was in the -- the document was
6 Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 33436 receives
8 Exhibit Number P7673, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 06009,
12 page 22 of the B/C/S and page 20 of the English.
13 Q. Sir, this is a 21 January 1993 session of the council for
14 co-ordinating state policy. Present at the session are a number of
15 individuals, including General Mladic, Radovan Karadzic, Nikola Koljevic,
16 Momcilo Krajisnik, and Slobodan Milosevic, among others. At the bottom
17 of this page, we see that Radovan Karadzic is speaking. He says:
18 "There was 50/50 of us in Zvornik. The number of inhabitants of
19 Zvornik is now the same, approximately 50.000, and they are all Serbs.
20 More than 24.000 Serbs from Zenica and Central Bosnia have arrived and
21 stopped in Zvornik."
22 This is an example of how municipalities, like Zvornik, were
23 ethnically redistributed during the war; correct?
24 A. I must say, in comparison with other areas, the same way that the
25 ethnic structure was changed in Mostar when we're looking at Serbs.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please focus your answer.
2 Whether the same thing happened elsewhere in the opposite way is
3 certainly a matter which may be relevant, then you'll be asked about it
4 by the Defence or later by Mr. Weber, but could you please answer the
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am just commenting on the
7 question in the way that I am viewing it right now. It's simply --
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you're not
9 invited to comment on the question. You're invited to answer the
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seems as if what is being asked
12 of me is to say, yes. When there is a deliberate way of putting a
13 question to me, it seems that I'm expected to say yes. I cannot respond
14 to a question in that manner. If these are yes-and-no questions, then I
15 cannot answer these questions.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, can you say no, you can say yes, you
17 can say -- but what you're supposed to do is to stick to the issue which
18 is part of the question, and the issue was about Zvornik and not about
19 what happened elsewhere. If that's relevant, questions will be put, for
20 example, by the Defence. And this perhaps also explains perhaps some
21 misunderstanding of what a trial, that is this one, how it is conducted.
22 That is one party asks you questions, you're supposed to answer those
23 questions; another party has introduced a 500-page report in which you
24 may have expressed whatever you thought relevant, and then additional
25 questions can be put to you by the Defence. That's how it works.
1 Could you pleas answer the question.
2 MR. IVETIC: But, Your Honours, the question was: Is this an
3 example -- is Zvornik an example of what is going on in other
4 municipalities. Without talking about other municipalities, the witness
5 cannot answer the question. So I'm confused as an attorney as to what is
6 going on here, because the question asked in relation to other
7 municipalities is Zvornik an example? The witness started answering it
8 and he was not allowed to answer, so I really am concerned.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, what concerns you here is
10 incomprehensible to me. The question is: Is this an example of what
11 happened during the war? You can answer yes or no, and if you want to
12 add other examples that support this example, it's up to you to do so;
13 or, if not, you in re-examination can ask about other examples to
14 elaborate on that. There is no need when you are asked about an example
15 to then start giving a litany of other examples which are not being
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if that question that you posed was
18 asked to the witness, I would agree with you; but that's not the question
19 that Mr. Weber posed. The question Mr. Weber posed introduced other
20 municipalities, and therefore the witness - in my opinion - is quite
21 right to answer in the way he did.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we --
23 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, let me just try.
24 Mr. Weber asked: This is an example of how municipalities, like
25 Zvornik, were ethnically redistributed during the war; correct?
1 Now the witness can say either this is an example or it is not an
2 example. He thinks that he should say yes; he can say no as well. And
3 then Mr. Weber may have follow-up questions to find out why this
4 witness - and that's apparently what he wishes to do - why the witness is
5 concerned about the way in which the question was phrased.
6 So if you think it's not an example, Witness, you just say no,
7 and then Mr. Weber will put further questions or Mr. Ivetic will later
8 put further questions to you. There's no way that are you expected to
9 say yes. You can say no if you think it's not an example. Therefore,
10 carefully listen to the question. Don't comment - as the witness said he
11 did - on the question, and listen to the next question put to you by
12 Mr. Weber.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You could also say you don't know, if you don't
14 know the answer to the question.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MR. WEBER:
17 Q. Mr. Kovac, what we see here is an example of how municipalities,
18 specifically referring to this example with Zvornik, were ethnically
19 redistributed during the war; correct?
20 A. Yes, for all three warring parties.
21 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 65 of the
22 B/C/S and page 55 of the English translation.
23 Q. During this meeting there's much discussion and continued
24 discussion of maps. On this page, General Mladic is speaking and he
1 "[As read] They are, in every way, going to try to negate the
2 state of facts by the principle of non-recognition of territories
3 conquered by force, which is not the case in the maps, not even as
4 regards this -- not event as regards this principle."
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think you should repeat the sentence.
6 MR. WEBER:
7 Q. "They are, in every way, going to try to negate the state of
8 facts by the principle of non-recognition of territories conquered by
9 force, which is not the case in the maps, not even as regards this
11 By January 1993, the VRS had conquered territories in
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina by force; you're aware of that, right?
13 A. All three armies conquered by force during the civil war.
14 Q. Okay. The VRS did that; correct?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, if the witness says all three parties,
16 then the VRS is included. There's no need to -- please proceed.
17 MR. WEBER:
18 Q. The paragraph ends with the statement:
19 "They don't want to give the same to us."
20 In the context of this paragraph, General Mladic is complaining
21 that the maps being negotiated do not reflect the areas that the VRS
22 conquered; correct?
23 A. I neither see the map nor do I know which areas are being
24 discussed, so I cannot draw a conclusion.
25 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I'm going to come back to this document
1 a little bit later in my examination and I'm going to move on to another
2 topic, but if this is an okay time for the break.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's time for the break.
4 But before we take that break, Witness, I'd like to add something
5 to an earlier conversation that was conducted in this courtroom. The
6 question was about whether this is an example of that. Now apparently,
7 after thinking it over, it may have been unclear and Mr. Weber may not
8 have been very clear on it being an example of what. Apparently you
9 understood the question - although that was certainly not explicit - that
10 this is an example of what happened to municipalities where then a Serb
11 majority came in, or whether this was an example of something that
12 happened in all municipalities where one ethnicity became the majority
13 after certain events, and that would then be for the whole of the
15 Now, Mr. Weber has not been very explicit in that respect in his
16 question. So apart from a "yes" or a "no" or "I don't know," if the
17 question is unclear to you, you may ask for clarification of that
18 question. At the same time, apparently you interpreted the question in a
19 certain way, that is, that Mr. Weber was asking about this was an example
20 of what happened to non-Serb majority municipalities that then became a
21 Serb majority. That's how you interpreted it. The question wasn't clear
22 in that respect. You considered it important to broaden it and to make
23 it example of perhaps of what happened in all municipalities.
24 Now, if you would have asked: Mr. Weber, do you mean it to be an
25 example of what happened in municipalities where finally there was a Serb
1 majority at the end, or did you ask me about what happened in all
2 municipalities, irrespective of what ethnicity finally ended up to the
3 majority? That would have been a fair request for clarification. But
4 that's different from commenting on a question as you understood it. You
5 could have asked for clarification.
6 We take a break, and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes from
8 THE WITNESS: Hvala.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 1.40 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to -- yes,
14 Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have used the break to refresh my
16 recollection as to a decision by this Trial Chamber of 7 September 2012,
17 where this Trial Chamber in a written decision denied the Defence access
18 to confidential documents from the case of Prosecutor versus Rasim Delic,
19 who was commander of the ABH army; the case of Prosecutor versus
20 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Kubura, also a member of the ABiH; to the case
21 of Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic, commander-in-chief --
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should slow down. It's impossible to follow
23 for the transcriber.
24 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. The case of Prosecutor versus
25 Sefer Halilovic, who was commander-in-chief of the ABiH, and for which we
1 were also denied access; to the case of Prosecutor versus Zdravko Mucic
2 et al., which was in relation to Celebici camp in Konjic municipality;
3 and also the case of Prosecutor versus Naser Oric, who was commander of
4 the 28th Division in the Srebrenica area --
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's all in that that one decision, Mr. Ivetic?
6 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then we'll re- visit that decision and see
8 what the reasons were, whether it was unwillingness to assist the Defence
9 or whether there were any other reasons which led us to those decisions.
10 We'll have a have look at it. Thank you for informing us.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
13 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. In paragraph 26 of your report, this is in the introduction, you
16 "It is true that all the three peoples in BH were exposed to
17 ethnic cleansing and crimes."
18 Just for clarity, the three peoples that you are referring to are
19 the Bosnian Serbs, the Bosnian Croats, and the Bosnian Muslims; correct?
20 A. I mean Serbs, Muslims, and Croats, and they're not only Bosnian.
21 This adjective, Bosnian, does not feature in practice among the people,
22 it's not used.
23 Q. You say it does not feature in practice among the people. What
24 people are you referring to?
25 A. Well, this attribute, Bosnian, because Bosnia-Herzegovina was
1 established as a socialist republic in the former SFRY and it has
2 predominantly the Bosnian and the Herzegovinian parts. When you say
3 "Bosnian," it excludes Herzegovina. That's why we use the terms Serbs,
4 Croats, and Muslims, later called Bosniaks.
5 Q. In the paragraph, you describe how Serbs were subjected to ethnic
6 cleansing. How were the Muslims ethnically cleansed?
7 A. In one paragraph, it can be expressed as follows. From the
8 beginning of the civil war, by establishing front lines between
9 paramilitary formations and later with the establishment of the armies,
10 with the movement of armies, people were moved from one territory to
11 another, controlled by their own army. So they were moved in the same
12 way as Croats and Serbs.
13 Q. You consider this to be ethnic cleansing?
14 A. Well, it's arguable whether it was by ethnic cleansing, but you
15 can say that a division among the peoples occurred. Some people left
16 their territory in the initial period under the pressure of
17 paramilitaries, but generally you can apply that term.
18 Q. They never left under pressure from the VRS?
19 A. They left from the pressure of all the three armies.
20 Q. What crimes were committed against the Muslims? And if could you
21 be specific as possible as to where the crimes occurred and when they
23 A. Well, my first association is the mass crime in Srebrenica, and
24 that stands as a symbol of the mass crime in Srebrenica, although there
25 are crimes less known and less covered by the media that were committed
1 in the course of the civil war.
2 Q. Okay. What lesser-known crimes were committed against Muslims?
3 And if you could again be as specific as possible.
4 A. I'm using the term "lesser" under quotation marks. Every crime
5 is a crime. I am speaking only in terms of the number of victims, and
6 again, I don't want to play even with the number of victims. But there
7 were crimes in other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina as well. I specifically
8 couldn't remember an event now, but when we talk about losses in the
9 Sarajevo battle-field, if around five and a half thousand Muslim soldiers
10 are killed and 2.500 Serb soldiers get killed, then in all this killing
11 crimes are perpetrated.
12 Q. You aware that thousands of civilians were killed inside the
13 inner ring of Sarajevo during the war; correct?
14 A. In my report, I cited various sources, and different numbers are
15 encountered as to the suffering of civilians, both Serbs and Muslims in
17 I know that the commander of the 1st Corps of the BH army at the
18 end of the war spoke about the losses in his corps, the number of those
19 killed and wounded, seriously or less seriously; but I remember the
20 figure of 10.400 total of civilians killed in Sarajevo, both Muslims and
21 Serbs. If necessary, I can say something about the structure
22 Mr. Mehanowski [phoen] made an analysis of the losses in the civil war in
24 Q. We'll come back and discuss Sarajevo, in particular. Can you
25 tell us now specifically as possible what crimes were committed against
1 Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war?
2 A. Against the Croats? I know in Central Bosnia, in the area of
3 Lasva, Zenica, Travnik, around Kiseljak, and towards Mostar, from
4 Jablanica in the direction of Mostar, I don't know specific place names,
5 but I know that in the period when the HVO and the BH army were in
6 conflict, significant crimes against the civilian population and property
8 Q. Are you aware of any crimes committed by the VRS against the
9 Croat population?
10 A. Against the Croatian population? I don't know of any mass
11 crimes. I cannot remember any mass crimes, only individual ones. At the
12 time of an intensive conflict between the Croats and Muslims, the Serbian
13 side provided logistics and helped rescue the Croatian population from
14 Central Bosnia and transferred them across their territory up to western
16 Q. Can you tell us a single document that you reference in your
17 report which indicates any member of the VRS committed a crime?
18 A. A great number of reports refer to units on lower tactical level
19 and paramilitary formations that committed crimes, and this report does
20 not deny that.
21 Q. Okay. You make reference to the six strategic --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I --
23 MR. WEBER: Sure.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- ask you: I understood the question to be - but
25 please correct me when I am wrong - whether you referenced any document
1 in which the commission of a crime by VRS members is mentioned. Your
2 answer was:
3 "A great number of reports refer to units on lower tactical level
4 and paramilitary formations that committed crimes."
5 Now, that's not exactly the same, whether you are referring to
6 documents dealing with crimes committed or that you have referenced
7 documents referring to units, where you do not deny that they had
8 committed crimes. Therefore, I don't know to what extent your answer is
9 really an answer to the question: Have you referred to documents which
10 specifically deal with crimes committed by members of the VRS?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, for instance, the document --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, but I was mainly concerned
13 about whether the understanding of the question and the answer was
14 linking to the question. But if you give that example, that would most
15 certainly assist.
16 THE WITNESS: Okay.
17 [Interpretation] For example, the order of the Chief of Staff of
18 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, where it is noted that some of the men of
19 their own accord opened fire without receiving any orders and it is
20 defined which measures should be taken in future, if it happens again,
21 against such individuals.
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that order is referenced in the
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, was that -- you will understand that I have no
1 recollection. Was that because they have violated discipline, or was it
2 that they had committed crimes against the opposite party? Because,
3 again, that's not the same, because opening fire without instructions
4 does not necessarily mean that you commit a crime. You may violate --
5 Could you tell us whether it's described in that document as a
6 crime committed against, I take it, the other party, either civilians or
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not stated explicitly, but it
9 can be concluded - it can be inferred - that if somebody opened fire of
10 their own accord without orders, that they could have committed a crime,
11 such as killing an innocent person or persons in that area. It's not
12 explicitly linked, no.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's not an example where a document is referred to
14 where it's clearly stated that VRS soldiers committed a crime, but you
15 say could have been. Yes.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. WEBER:
18 Q. Just to follow up on your example, what's the date of that
19 document? And if you can, give me -- I presume it's in the Sarajevo part
20 of your report. Who was it from, if could you tell us?
21 A. In the Sarajevo chapter the year is 1994 - I cannot remember the
22 date - but it's in the footnote, both the reference to the document and
23 the signatory is mentioned. I know he's the Chief of Staff of the
24 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
25 Q. In 1994 that would be Dragomir Milosevic?
1 A. No, not the commander. I said Chief of Staff.
2 Q. Is this the beginning half of 1994; and, if so, would that be
3 Dragomir Milosevic?
4 A. No, it's not the first half. It's the second half of 1994.
5 Q. Sir, if you could just help us out tomorrow morning with a
6 reference is to that document, it would be appreciated, if you wouldn't
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just -- who was the Chief of Staff at that time of
9 the SRK?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember off the cuff.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know only the position.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. You make reference to the six strategic goals of the RS in
16 paragraph 4.206 of your report, along with their acceptance at the
17 16th Assembly Session on 12 May 1992. I'd like to go through some
18 documents with you now for the rest of the day and ask you some questions
19 about how these were implemented.
20 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P07086.
21 Q. This is a 26 May 1992 Birac Brigade order. Item 6 of the order
23 "Move women and children out of the Muslim villages to Kalesija
24 and Gracanica, whereas the men are to be taken away to collection
1 This order shows the army implemented the first objective by
2 moving non-Serbs from villages; correct?
3 A. I would say this: You see in the signature, it is a brigade
4 commander, a major. It's two months into the war. It's the area of
5 Podrinje where the Muslim and Serb villages were intermixed, and it's an
6 act of moving people to areas under the control of their army. It says
7 here "move." I don't see the dimension of mistreatment anywhere.
8 Q. You agree it's the Serb forces, the VRS, that is doing this;
10 A. I agree. Both armies did that, the BH army and the Serb army.
11 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P7408.
12 Q. We are now going to discuss a sequence of documents. First, this
13 is operational order number 1 from SRK Commander Stanislav Galic dated
14 14 September 1992. This order was issued shortly after General Galic
15 became commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; correct?
16 A. According to these elements, yes.
17 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both
19 Q. Under section 4.6, related to the tasks of the brigades,
20 General Galic orders the Rogatica Brigade to take the sector of
21 Mount Gosina in co-ordination with the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade.
22 You were aware that Mount Gosina is located to the south of the village
23 of Nevosoci which is located in the municipality of Sokolac; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33447.
1 Q. This is a 10 September 1992 SRK command regular combat report
2 from General Galic to the VRS Main Staff.
3 MR. WEBER: If we could go to item 3 of the report.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you're on your feet.
5 MR. IVETIC: The English version that I have goes from item 2 to
6 4, so I'm not quite sure where item 3 would be exactly.
7 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I might have gone to the incorrect
8 document. I'll come back to it first thing in the morning once I check
9 the upload.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P6641 for
12 the witness.
13 Q. This is a 20 September 1992 2nd Romanija Brigade attack order
14 from Radislav Krstic.
15 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both
17 Q. On this page, we see that Colonel Krstic, at the time, orders the
18 1st and 5th Battalions to carry out an attack along the Olovo axis - do
19 you see that? - among other areas.
20 A. This is almost illegible. I cannot make it out. Half of the
21 words cannot be read.
22 MR. WEBER: If the Court Officer could please assist and enlarge
23 points 5 and 6 for the witness.
24 Q. Is that better, sir?
25 A. It's a little better, but there's certainly 40 per cent of the
1 text I can't read.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Are there specific portions, because apparently this
3 text is translated and therefore deciphered first. If there are any
4 specific portions you think you couldn't read, then we could ask
5 Mr. Weber to slowly read the English translation so as to make you
6 familiar with what the original is supposed to say. And, I take it,
7 Mr. Ivetic, that you'll keep a close eye on it, that it corresponds with
8 the original.
9 MR. WEBER:
10 Q. Sir, I look in the -- under item 5 that the 1st mtb shall carry
11 out the attack from the -- and it's a little bit unlegible [sic] but,
12 Grah, a specific trigger point, and then, legible, is Krusevo Biostica
13 river line, along the Donje Krusevo-Prgosevo-Olovo-Olog access. Do you
14 see that?
15 A. Yes. I see it in the English.
16 Q. Are you able to see under -- in the next section, number 6, that
17 the 5th mtb is to carry out an attack using the main forces and as part
18 of the line that they're supposed to operate on, it includes Olovo?
19 A. I see that, yes.
20 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P3822.
21 Q. This is a 22 September 1992, 2nd Romanija Brigade combat report
22 from Colonel Krstic to the VRS Main Staff and SRK command.
23 Focussing on item 1b, as in boy, the report states: "Units from
24 our brigade carried out activities yesterday in the area of Mount Gosina
25 in a joint operation with the Rogatica" -- the word "brigade," I see, is
1 actually missing from the translation but in the original "with the aim
2 to reach the Praca valley. Units of the 1st and 5th mtb also engaged in
3 activities in the direction of Olovo with the aim to establish conditions
4 to move into attack and take control of Olovo and the
5 Nisici-Olovo-Han Pijesak road. During the day, the village of Nevosoci
6 was ciscenje in Glasinacko Polje."
7 This report indicates that General Galic's and Colonel Krstic's
8 orders that we saw previously were carried out; correct?
9 A. From this report, you can only see the concept. What the effects
10 are, we cannot see. Unfortunately, this concept is pejorative.
11 Cleansing, "ciscenje," and the connotation is pejorative. Tell me what
12 you understand this term to mean, "ciscenje"?
13 Q. We'll come to that term in a second but what I'm asking you
14 actually is that we looked at General Galic's order and then following on
15 from that, Colonel Krstic's order, and you'd agree those orders were
16 carried out by the 2nd Romanija Brigade; correct?
17 A. I think this report ties in with the previous order. At least
18 the time sequence, the dates, seem to indicate so. Although perhaps
19 not ...
20 Q. You've commented already, and we see as part of these operations
21 the 2nd Romanija Brigade reports that it ciscenje'd the village of
22 Nevosoci on 22nd September 1992.
23 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have P4162 for the
25 Q. I'm going to go through two more documents with you on this
1 before the end of the day.
2 This is an Associated Press article about 41 Muslims being buried
3 in Bosnia. In the third paragraph, it states: "Nevosoci died on
4 September 22, 1992, when Serb units assembled the small farming
5 population in front of the mosque. Forty-five males were marched away.
6 Damir Ocuz, at 14, was the youngest. Edhem Karic was 85. Everyone else
8 This article is consistent with other evidence that the
9 Prosecution has led in this case, including, P717, P727 and, lastly,
10 P3170, which reflects that two mentioned people, and others, including
11 Damir Ocuz and Edhem Karic, were murdered.
12 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have P17 [sic] for the
14 Q. We're just look to look at this document and then I'll try and
15 ask my follow-up questions for the day.
16 P719; my apologies.
17 This is a 26 September 1992 approval from Colonel Krstic. It
18 certifies that a conscript of the 2nd Romanija Brigade can transport a
19 bunch of furniture and appliances from Nevosoci to Sokolac. It also
20 indicates that the conscript has chosen a house in Nevosoci for future
22 So based on the last two documents that we looked at, the fact
23 is, is that activities that ciscenje the village of Nevosoci resulted in
24 Muslims being removed and members of the VRS occupying their houses;
1 A. I can't see the direct connection to members of the VRS. It's
2 about one of the residents who came to live in that house, somebody who
3 also had left his home. It's not a soldiers who's moving in but a family
4 that had left another area.
5 Q. Sir, I see your focussing on the immediate document that is
6 before you. The reason I went through a whole sequence of them was to
7 eventually ask you that question.
8 So, not just exclusively this document but the series of
9 documents we looked at, show that, in fact, operations or activities to
10 ciscenje the village resulted in Muslims being removed and Serbs moving
11 into their houses; right?
12 A. I think it's a one-sided conclusion, and I don't think it is
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I actually see the time.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one clarifying point before we break off.
17 Sir, you said you can't see the direct connection to members of
18 the VRS within this document. This document gives approval to
19 Dragomir Bozic from the 2nd RM BTBR. Isn't that a VRS unit?
20 And then it says in the second paragraph: "The above mentioned
21 items will be transferred until final moving into a house in Nevosoci
22 which the above-named has chosen for future living."
23 Now "the above-named" is Dragomir Bozic, who comes from a
24 battalion of the VRS. Is it not so?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but it's he and his family.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not just a resident. It is this person, this
2 resident who is a soldier of the VRS. Now, your answer was you don't see
3 direct connection to members of the VRS. Now he is a member of the VRS.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But he is with his family.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we'll adjourn for the day. Chamber is
8 aware, and the parties are aware as well, I think, that you'd like to
9 conclude your testimony tomorrow. I don't know whether that's possible
10 or not. If that requires any further actions, then please inform VWS.
11 And I'm looking at both parties to see whether it's feasible.
12 Mr. Weber, you say it's not -- at least that's what I understand from
13 your nodding no.
14 MR. WEBER: You're correct.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time have you used until now and what
16 time did you announce?
17 MR. WEBER: I will check and give a more precise identification
18 in the morning.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because a simple no is not binding on the
20 Chamber as you --
21 MR. WEBER: Yes. I do anticipate that we'll probably be through
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll see. We'll further -- well ...
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: You've used two hours and 30 minutes until now, I do
2 Then, Witness, I again instruct you that you should not speak or
3 communicate to anyone about your testimony, whether given already or
4 still to be given, and we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning
5 at 9.30.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Before we adjourn, your reference to the decision of
8 - what was it? - the 2012 decision in which the Chamber denied access to,
9 you are referring to the decision in which, I think, for --
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- 28 cases access was granted and that for five
12 cases where there was no geographic overlap or no temporary [sic]
13 overlap, and, therefore, that the forensic purpose was insufficiently
14 demonstrated in the view of the Chamber, that that's the decision you are
15 referring to.
16 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours. The five decisions on cases as
17 to Muslim commanders of the ABiH in Sarajevo and in Srebrenica, yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was temporary and geographic overlap.
19 And, please, do you remember whether you sought certification to appeal
20 that decision?
21 MR. IVETIC: At this distance from that decision any answer I
22 give would not be reliable since I don't know.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. We'll -- and then another question is:
24 Did you -- because this witness specifically said something about that he
25 wished to have access to certain documents. Did you ever follow that up
1 by asking for specific documentation where there was an overlap so as to
2 seek the assistance of the Chamber in that respect?
3 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, I only met with the witness when
4 he came here in The Hague, so the discussions with him and I were two
5 days before he started testifying.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please check whether the witness has had
7 conversations with members of the Mladic Defence team and whether there
8 ever was a request which were then followed up in court so that we could
9 have assisted, or perhaps would have denied assistance, in getting access
10 to those documents specifically for this expert report.
11 MR. IVETIC: I would be surprised if there were, since I think I
12 would be aware of anything that was brought into the courtroom -- well, I
13 certainly don't recall having personally made such a request to the
14 Chamber. I could say that with certainty.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, where the -- I may have pronounced not very
17 precisely, I talked about the temporarily and geographic overlap and not
18 about the temporary overlap but I --
19 MR. IVETIC: Temporal, I think, is the --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Temporal. Yes. Overlap in terms of time and
21 geography so that avoids any further problem.
22 With the apologies for the late adjournment, we'll resume
23 tomorrow, 19th of November, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom,
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of
2 November 2015, at 9.30 a.m.