Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 41588

 1                           Thursday, 19 November 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before we continue to hear the evidence of the witness, there's

12     one issue I'd like to raise immediately, and that deals with the redacted

13     witness statement of Miroslav Homa [phoen].  On the 18th of November,

14     that was yesterday, the Chamber admitted the redacted witness statement

15     of witness Miroslav Homa into evidence, pending the filing of an

16     attestation and declaration in compliance with the requirements of Rule

17     92 bis (B) of the Rules.

18             The Chamber notes that only the witness's unredacted statement

19     has been uploaded into e-court under Rule 65 ter number 1D01689.

20             The Chamber hereby instructs the Defence to upload or release the

21     redacted witness statement as attached to the Defence motion.  The

22     Chamber also already instructs the Registry to assign the redacted

23     numbers to the exhibit number of the witness statement.

24             And could that be done as quickly as possible.

25             Then could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

Page 41589

 1             Mr. Weber, unless -- is there any urgent matter you have?

 2             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I was just going to keep

 3     the process going of doing some housekeeping as the witness is coming in,

 4     if that is acceptable to the Chamber.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's acceptable.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, at this time, the Prosecution has

 7     uploaded the handwritten notes on the list from the witness under 65 ter

 8     33515.  We have submitted it for translation.  If we could please have

 9     the 65 ter marked for identification at this time with an exhibit number,

10     it would be appreciated.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, 65 ter 33515 would receive number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  P7674, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.  I take it there

14     that may be some further discussion once it has been translated what the

15     probative value of that document would be, so whether it meets all

16     requirements for admission.

17             MR. WEBER:  It is, and if there's any --

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             MR. WEBER:  In those discussions, if there's any other things

20     that are needed to make it clear, we will also discuss that with the

21     Defence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             Good morning, Mr. Kovac.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I am afraid that we will not conclude your testimony

Page 41590

 1     today, which we regret.  We would have very much liked to accommodate

 2     you.  That's one.

 3             Second, we have no possibility for extended sessions and neither

 4     a session tomorrow.  That's -- if we can, we usually try to accommodate,

 5     but we're also afraid that it would not assist sufficiently to conclude

 6     your this week.  I don't know what problems this causes to you.  If there

 7     are urgent problems, which are difficult to overcome, then, of course, we

 8     would have to briefly discuss it.  But, as matters stand now, we do not

 9     expect you to conclude your testimony before the weekend.

10             Mr. Weber will now continue his cross-examination.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13                           WITNESS:  MITAR KOVAC [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]

16        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kovac.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   Were you able to locate that 1994 document from the

19     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps from the deputy commander that we discussed

20     yesterday?

21        A.   Yes.  I looked and I found several documents, but this specific

22     one that I spoke about; it's paragraph 497 of the report in the Serbian.

23        Q.   Thank you very much for checking that.

24             I'm going to continue and I may come back to that in the next

25     session.

Page 41591

 1             In the introduction and parts 1 through 3 of your report, you do

 2     not refer to many primary sources, so I'm not going to spend much more

 3     time talking to you about the topics related to these sections; however,

 4     I do still have a couple of things to go through related to them and the

 5     couple primary sources that you do refer to.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 1D05358,

 7     page 72 in the B/C/S and page 73 in the English.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 3.1 of your report, you discuss a bunch of facts

 9     related to events in Bosanski Brod, starting from 3 March 1992 and

10     thereafter.  You talk about attacks, the geography, military units,

11     excavations of bodies and so on.

12             Now, in the footnote, footnote 159, the only source you cite in

13     this paragraph is Branko Lukic's opening statement in the Stakic case on

14     18 November 1992.

15             In your view, is an opening statement an authoritative source for

16     topics you discuss in this paragraph?

17        A.   As far as of this paragraph is concerned, I checked this in a

18     number of reports and documents relating to the war-time-period

19     discussed, i.e., the analysis, newspaper articles.  There were several

20     sources that refer to this period and this particular area.

21        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to go back to my original question.

22             So, first, is an opening statement an authoritative source for

23     what you cite in this paragraph?

24        A.   As far as I'm concerned, yes; but, like I said, I did consult

25     other sources too.

Page 41592

 1        Q.   Now this has come up a couple of times during the course of your

 2     examination and it relates to an issue of transparency, and you have

 3     often said, Ah, I have consulted many sources, documents, newspapers, I

 4     believe you just said just now, but the fact is you didn't put these in

 5     your report; right?

 6        A.   I said yesterday that I would take one source that I believed

 7     relevant out of a number of sources to indicate what the material in my

 8     report is based on.  As far as this particular point, I saw some

 9     documents, notes regarding crimes that occurred in that area.  I saw at

10     least four or five video recordings of it.

11        Q.   And you didn't put any of those video recordings in this

12     paragraph, right, you didn't cite to any of them?

13        A.   I did not.  Because, like I said, I don't believe that it's

14     necessary to refer to each and every source in the paragraphs that I put

15     in the report.

16        Q.   How about this?  I just wonder about this in terms of your

17     methodology:  Did you even check the Stakic judgement to see what

18     happened -- if what happened in Bosanski Brod was even relevant to the

19     facts in those proceedings or even to see whether or not there are any

20     documentary materials showing that widespread crimes were committed

21     against non-Serbs in the vicinity of Prijedor or in the Omarska, Keraterm

22     and Trnopolje camps?  Did you do any of that?

23        A.   I did watch the footage, not in the Stakic case, but I did view

24     the video material that showed the crimes that occurred at that time in

25     that period.

Page 41593

 1        Q.   You didn't cite that stuff in your report, did you?

 2        A.   These events were not described here and they were not the topic

 3     of the report.

 4        Q.   You didn't think they were relevant to this case?

 5        A.   Not that the sources were not relevant.  It's just that I did not

 6     describe those events.

 7        Q.   You agree that one would need to actually look at 1 KK, 1st

 8     Krajina Corps, orders and reports from 1992 in order to even attempt an

 9     analysis of the VRS actions throughout many of the municipalities in

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina during this time; right?

11        A.   I don't think so.  If I were to review each locality and each

12     municipality, each region in Bosnia-Herzegovina then I would need five

13     years in order to write my expert report.

14        Q.   Sir, in your report, you do not reference a single document from

15     the 1st Krajina Corps.  I put it to you that you have not done a credible

16     analysis related to the VRS's actions or General Mladic's role throughout

17     the entire zone of responsibility in the municipalities that are covered

18     by the 1st Krajina Corps; right?

19        A.   I did not deal overly with the 1st Krajina Corps, but the final

20     operations of the Army of the Republic of Croatia and the Army of Bosnia

21     and Herzegovina.  In Republika Srpska, I did not focus on that in my

22     report.  Mainly, I focussed on Sarajevo and the protected areas of

23     Srebrenica and Zepa.

24        Q.   Okay.  In your report, specifically paragraphs 2. -- excuse me,

25     I'll start again.  2.75, 3.67, 3.70, 5.72, and 5.82 to 5.84, you do refer

Page 41594

 1     to VRS Main Staff Directives 7, 7.1, and 8.  There are not any references

 2     to Main Staff Directives 1 through 6 and Directive 9 in your report.  I

 3     put it to you that do you not credibly discuss the role of the VRS

 4     Main Staff or General Mladic in his commanding role throughout much of

 5     the war without analysing directives such as the ones I just mentioned in

 6     conjunction with other military documents that show their implementation;

 7     right?

 8        A.   I wouldn't agree.  Directive 4 and Directive 7.1 are key ones

 9     relating to those -- these two areas that I mentioned earlier, where

10     combat was happening during the civil war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11        Q.   Your analysis of that is limited to your consideration of what

12     happened in the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa; correct?

13        A.   Sarajevo, Srebrenica and Zepa, because these are the main

14     elements of the indictment.  So when I was deciding on the contents of my

15     report, that's how I structured the contents, and you can see that from

16     the general structure of the report.

17        Q.   So in Directive 4, with respect to Sarajevo, you consider that

18     General Mladic assigns tasks to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps including the

19     fact that he ordered the SRK's main forces to keep Sarajevo and Igman

20     under full blockade and, in accordance with the developments, tighten the

21     circle and cut off and isolate parts of the city and surrounding

22     settlements.

23             You considered that?

24        A.   Could you please show me this directive?  That section that

25     you're referring to.

Page 41595

 1        Q.   Sure.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have P1968, page 11 in

 3     the B/C/S and page 5 of the translation.  And focussing on section (e) of

 4     this directive.

 5        Q.   Sir, my question is very simple:  Did you consider this when you

 6     discuss events in Sarajevo?

 7        A.   Yes, I did consider it, in detail.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Why didn't you include discussion of it in your Sarajevo

 9     section of your report?

10        A.   I don't see anything here that would require to be part of the

11     discussion.  When I see it here, I can see that terms are being used that

12     you mentioned in your question and that you cited.

13        Q.   Okay.  So General Mladic's directives weren't important for you,

14     for you to cite.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Objection.  Misstates the evidence of the witness.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- yes.  That's not for the witness, so if you

17     would please --

18             But you considered apparently this part of the directive, not to

19     contain relevant information so as to deal with it in your report,

20     Witness?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I did consider the

22     directive, but in the way that I actually considered the relevant -- the

23     elements and the assignments issued to the corps, the Sarajevo-Romanija

24     Corps.  But what I'm saying is that item (e) does not contain the terms

25     that you were used in the question that was put to me.  What it says here

Page 41596

 1     is to "keep" Sarajevo, not what was said earlier.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have a look at the question.  Let me just ...

 3     one second, please.

 4             What was read in the question to you is, please compare it

 5     carefully with what's on your screen.  Whether you considered that

 6     General Mladic's assigns tasks to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, including

 7     the fact that he ordered the SRK's main forces to keep Sarajevo and Igman

 8     under full blockade and in accordance with the developments, tighten the

 9     circle and cut off and isolate parts of the city and surrounding

10     settlements.

11             That's what was read to you.  And is what you think is not to be

12     found in paragraph (e) on this page?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you find it there, but it's not

14     verbatim and the terms are not identical.  It says here at the very

15     beginning "to keep in the blockade."

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I think Mr. Weber quoted, if not fully verbatim then

17     approximately verbatim what is read.  There may be a translation issue, I

18     do not know.  But perhaps -- I don't know how it was translated in B/C/S.

19     But what Mr. Weber put to you is whether you considered, whether you -- I

20     think the gist of it was whether you considered it relevant to refer to

21     what is written in paragraph (e) of this order.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did consider it relevant,

23     and I put forward my position that this was a military blockade, a

24     blockade of the city, and I distinguished between an encircled or

25     besieged town, and these terms helped me -- these terms from the orders

Page 41597

 1     helped me to formulate these positions on top of general theoretical

 2     concepts.  And I believe that keeping a part of Sarajevo under blockade

 3     was a legitimate military act.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It was not part of the question, but please proceed.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   At transcript page 41351, you were asked about a portion of Sir

 7     Richard Dannatt's testimony about the 2nd Military District.  The

 8     question was:  "What can you say to about this is it fair or accurate

 9     to -- is that true VRS, in essence, was the 2nd Military District or that

10     the Main Staff of the VRS equated to the command of that district?"

11             Your answer was:  "Quite frankly, there are no facts to support

12     this kind of assertion and this kind of position cannot be based on the

13     projection of personnel or material or the establishment of the Military

14     District when compared to the Army of Republika Srpska."

15             Now, in part 2 of your report, in paragraph 2.48, you state that

16     "the existing elements of the commands of the 2nd VO were the core around

17     which the initial elements of the GS" - which I take it you're referring

18     to the Main Staff - "were formed."

19             Your own report contradicts the answer you gave in court; right?

20             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I think if counsel is going to use the

21     report I think the procedure in this courtroom has been to show the

22     report in both languages so that we all can follow.  I don't know why

23     we're departing from that procedure.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- understanding this not as a question as why

25     it is done wrongly but an invitation for you to do that, Mr. Weber, I

Page 41598

 1     think you'd certainly follow that suggestion.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Of course, Your Honour.  I do think the witness has

 3     it in front of him.  If he needs to refer to it, I will try to get the

 4     page numbers quickly.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is page 62 in hard copy.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And 62 in e-court as well.

 7             MR. WEBER: [Overlapping speakers] ... 62 in e-court in the

 8     English and ...

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  B/C/S, it should be the previous page.

10             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And page 61 in the B/C/S.

11        Q.   Sir, could you please answer the question.

12        A.   I said specifically, also in terms of structure, that it cannot

13     be the same level of command, not if you compare the global organisation

14     of the Military District and the Main Staff of the VRS, there is no

15     overlap, neither in terms of function nor in any other sense.

16             In terms of personnel, the functions and the duties formulated in

17     the Military District do not coincide with those of the Main Staff.  In

18     the structure of the personnel, there is no similarity, let alone

19     identicality.  I said even then that a number of officers, not from the

20     Military District but from various areas made up the core, the inner

21     circle of the Main Staff which later grew.  So there is no coincidence

22     between those two commands, not even similarity.

23        Q.   Do you stand by your statement that the existing elements of the

24     2nd VO were the core around which the initial elements of the Main Staff

25     were formed.  You stand by that; right?

Page 41599

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the quote be

 2     repeated with the exact reference to the text, please.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   In paragraph 2.48, you stand by your statement that --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The very last sentence of 2.48.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, please read it again.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   The last sentence of paragraph 2.48, I'm quoting:  "The existing

10     elements of the command of the 2nd VO were the core around which the

11     initial elements of the GS were formed."

12        A.   I don't see what's in dispute here.  When you say "elements" then

13     one part --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question is whether you stand by that,

15     whether you still -- whether this is still --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by that statement.  I just

17     want to clarify what it refers to, what it means.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think Mr. Weber was primarily interested to

19     know whether you stand by it.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. WEBER:

22        Q.   As support for your -- for this paragraph, you referred to the

23     23 January 1992 2nd Military District combat readiness report related to

24     the year 1991.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 05580, page

Page 41600

 1     2 of the B/C/S and page 1 of the English.

 2        Q.   Sir, this is the 2nd Military District combat readiness report

 3     that you referred to; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 4 in both

 6     versions.

 7        Q.   At the bottom of the page, it indicates that the -- at the

 8     beginning of January 1992, referring to 10 January 1992, that the command

 9     of the 5th Military District was renamed the 2nd Military District and it

10     came to comprise new units and a new zone of responsibility.

11             The 2nd Military District was established on 10th of May -- or

12     10th of January, 1992; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to page 28 of the

15     B/C/S and page 23 of the English version.

16        Q.   At the bottom of this page, the report indicates:  "The changes

17     in the organisation and establishment of the commands and units of the

18     2nd VO have improved and enhanced the manoeuvrability of units,

19     contributed to more efficient command and control, the provisions -- the

20     provision of combat support, and the organisation and possibilities for

21     armed struggle."

22             Do you agree with this?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could we have a more precise reference for the

24     original, please.

25             MR. WEBER:  Page 28 of the B/C/S.  At the bottom of the page.

Page 41601

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you then read it again, Mr. Weber, slowly.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   Sir, the part that I am referring to is the part that says:  "The

 4     changes in organisation and establishment of the commands and units of

 5     the 2nd VO have improved and enhanced the manoeuvrability of units,

 6     contributed to more efficient command and control, the provision of

 7     combat support, organisation and possibilities for armed struggle."

 8             Do you agree with that?

 9        A.   That's the conclusion of this report.  Concerning certain

10     elements, you can agree that, yes, there were positive effects, but not

11     the whole conclusion.

12        Q.   And you realise that many of the -- that the corps and its --

13     many of the subordinate units of the 2nd Military District did then

14     become part of the Army of Republika Srpska; right?

15        A.   Only part of their forces -- and I mean some of the equipment,

16     infrastructure, logistics.  Just like the case was with the deployment of

17     these units in the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I said that

18     at the beginning.  Depending on which area these units with their

19     logistics were, later they became part of the national army.

20             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness also explain to us.  He said he

22     partly shared the conclusions but not all, not the whole conclusion.  In

23     what respect do you not agree with the conclusion?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The part which talks about the

25     entire Military District, whereas only some of their assets were in the

Page 41602

 1     territory of Republika Srpska.  And it's a fact that only a part of the

 2     equipment which was not pulled back to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

 3     were used in Republika Srpska.  Parts of the equipment that were in areas

 4     that were later taken by Croatian and Muslim forces were taken, mostly

 5     successfully, by the Croatian and Muslim forces, whereas, it says here

 6     that the entire Military District became the basis for establishing the

 7     Army of Republika Srpska, which is not true.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Where do you read that exactly, the entire, in this

 9     portion that was read to you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when it says "changes

11     in the commands and units of the 2nd Military District have contributed

12     to," it doesn't say parts of commands and units.  It says "the commands

13     and units," which means, implicitly, the entire Military District.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then you say not all of that was in

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Does it say anywhere that this only applies for what

16     happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Because I didn't read that either.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This talks primarily about the

18     report relating to the Army of Republika Srpska.  So what is meant are

19     assets and personnel that were in the Serbian territory of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina and became part of the future army, and it doesn't

21     refer to the part of the equipment and personnel that were withdrawn to

22     the territory of Yugoslavia.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

24             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders the document

25     into evidence, 65 ter 05880 [sic].

Page 41603

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  I think it's 05580?

 3             MR. WEBER:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives exhibit number P7675, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 7             Let's have a look at -- what's the entire document is, how many

 8     pages --

 9             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, it is a combat readiness assessment so

10     it is a little bit larger of a document.  There are many attachments to

11     it.  I think it is important in light of all the evidence that the

12     Chamber does have in front of it relating to the units, and many of the

13     attachments refer to the specific units and their composition that we

14     actually need the full document in evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And the full document would mean how many pages?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down for the sake of the

17     interpreters, please.  Thank you.

18             MR. WEBER:  In B/C/S, it is 104, much of which is the

19     attachments.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, select relevant portions that you used

22     with this witness and if there's any need just for two or three quotes,

23     the Chamber is not going to accept 104 pages.

24             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, if I may, I understand the Chamber's

25     concern.  I am asking exceptionally that it be allowed at least to have

Page 41604

 1     the full text of the report and then some limited attachments which would

 2     substantially reduce the overall size of the material.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  To what?

 4             MR. WEBER:  Just checking the B/C/S.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At this moment, I think the -- what is on my

 6     screen as this report is seven pages, so I'm a bit ... no, I'm sorry, I'm

 7     looking at the wrong one.  That's the -- was the previous one.

 8             Make a selection, Mr. Weber.  If you think we do not need all the

 9     annexes then start striking the annexes but we are not, on the basis of

10     the evidence given by this witness, at this moment we're not going to

11     admit 104 pages.

12             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  I will, of course, be guided by

13     the Chamber.  The Prosecution's concern is just that the witness has

14     articulated opinions so and this is a document he references in his

15     report.  So --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  If you, first of all, would slow down.  I think

17     you've taken the witnesses to some portions which apparently contradict,

18     in the Prosecution's view, what he stated in his report and we should

19     look at that.  But we are not going then to analyse the whole of the

20     report against 104 pages contained in this report.  So at this moment,

21     the number just assigned by Madam Registrar is reserved for an excerpt

22     which we will still see to be uploaded in e-court.

23             The Defence has an opportunity to add whatever it thinks needs

24     for contextualisation.

25             Please proceed.

Page 41605

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33437.

 2        Q.   Sir, this is a 4 July 1992 decision to organise and establish the

 3     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The fact is, is that the ABiH was formally

 4     established on this date, on 4 July, and existed before and out of the

 5     formations that were the Territorial Defence units before that; correct?

 6        A.   No.  It developed from the paramilitary units of the Patriotic

 7     League, Green Berets and the Territorial Defence taken together.

 8             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 33437 into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33437 receives exhibit number

11     P7676.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33350 for

14     the witness.

15        Q.   This is a 12 May 1992 order from the 17th Corps command.  Under

16     item 2, the order instructs:  "Conduct a mobilisation of the combat-fit

17     Serbian population ..."

18             Around the time of the VRS being established, the VRS was

19     interested in mobilising the Serb population; correct?

20        A.   Can I see the signature, please.

21             All right.

22        Q.   Do you agree?

23        A.   I agree with the document.  As for your assertion, the Yugoslav

24     People's Army, at that time - that means a month into the civil war -

25     left -- in fact, Croatian personnel and officers, most of them, left the

Page 41606

 1     Yugoslav People's Army.  The JNA started withdrawing, and the part of the

 2     equipment that was planned to be transported to the Federal Republic of

 3     Yugoslavia could not be pulled out without the men, without the --

 4        Q.   You've explained a lot of this in your report.  I would encourage

 5     you to just so we could move along, if you could stay to the topic.  I

 6     was asking about mobilisation.  I think you've answered the question even

 7     in your explanation.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please tender 65 ter --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I haven't heard an answer to the question.

10             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Was the VRS interested in mobilising, for whatever

12     reasons, the Serb population around the time when the VRS was

13     established?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  In its -- in their own units.

15     That was already the beginning, the day of the establishment of the VRS.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 33350 into evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you do it a bit slower then the chance that

20     numbers are not recorded well; although they were now.  That risk is

21     diminished.

22             Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33350 receives exhibit number

24     P7677, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

Page 41607

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 1D05358,

 2     page 113 of the B/C/S and page 115 of the English version.  If we could

 3     focus, please, on paragraph 4.33.

 4        Q.   In paragraph 4.33 of your report, it starts:  "On 22 April 1992,

 5     Muslim armed units and the HVO launched an all-out attack on Ilidza

 6     despite the previously reached agreement on the Cessation of

 7     Hostilities."

 8             The paragraph appears to discuss the attack up until the last

 9     sentence.  This paragraph contains what purports to be factual

10     descriptions of an attack on 22 April; correct?

11        A.   The elements, the framework of that event, yes.

12        Q.   You do not reference any sources in this paragraph to support

13     these facts, do you?

14        A.   It's possible that there is no reference given, but I want to

15     remind you that I looked at the report and footage of combat action from

16     that day in the area of Ilidza.  I saw video recordings.  And even two

17     video reports by British journalists who happened to be in Ilidza on that

18     day.  Their reports were the basis for my description in general terms of

19     this event.

20        Q.   Okay.  I have no idea what reports you're talking about.  But

21     could you not locate a single military document that discusses the events

22     of 22 April 1992?

23        A.   Yes, I found them and I looked at them, including those two video

24     reports.  I didn't consider it necessary to go into detail.  My intention

25     was, rather, to show how ten days after signing a truce, Muslim forces

Page 41608

 1     and part of the Croatian forces launched offensive action against the

 2     purely Serb municipality of Sarajevo.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I put it on the record that the Prosecution has

 5     tendered into evidence reports of Ilidza and what was going on through

 6     some British journalists that they brought as witnesses, one that I

 7     remember, in particular.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It raises for me the question whether what the

 9     witness refers to - and we do not know what exactly he refers to -

10     whether that is in evidence, yes or no.  And that's, I think, one of the

11     functions of footnotes that it enables those who are reading a document

12     to check, to verify whether having access to those sources, if we have,

13     and that's the first question, whether that supports the conclusions as

14     drawn.

15             I'm -- could you tell us a bit more in detail what videos you

16     looked at so we could start, at least, guessing whether that is material

17     which is available to this Chamber, yes or no.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two video recordings and reports by

19     British journalists who happened to be in that area.  And I didn't view

20     them yesterday to be able to describe all the details and tell you which

21     journalists, for which TV station.  If there is anything in this

22     paragraph that is questionable or in dispute, you could point it to me

23     and then I could explain.  Just looking at it now, I cannot remember, but

24     I know what I watched.  I watched a huge number of recordings.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think you said two.  Were there more than

Page 41609

 1     two?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Two by British reporters.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, there may be something in dispute.  There may

 4     not be something in dispute; but we're unable to even think about that if

 5     we don't have access to the sources you say you've used and which are not

 6     specified.

 7             Could the parties try to see, Mr. Ivetic, you apparently have

 8     some memory about videos from that date so that, at least, we could start

 9     guessing whether we have material which may be the same material as the

10     witness relied on.

11             Apart from the two British videos, do you have any other of

12     the -- you said you looked at -- you said even, I think, a huge number,

13     but ... huge number.  Could you give us a bit more information about had

14     huge amount of video material you verified?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, next time I can bring

16     precise references, both concerning these two British reports and the

17     other sources on which this paragraph relies.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you mean by "next time" one of the coming days

19     or ... because I don't expect you to come back in this courtroom again.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A moment ago, it was said the trial

21     will continue.  If it does, then my next appearance here I will bring

22     them.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that there may be some misunderstanding.  This

24     trial will continue by hearing your evidence today, Monday, and -- or at

25     least -- one second.

Page 41610

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  At least we'll continue, although interrupted by

 3     some other evidence early next week.  So if you have that material

 4     available early next week and that would be appreciated, if you have any

 5     information just write it down what it is, give it to VWS and VWS will

 6     give it to the parties and to the Bench.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I meant, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But please include in your list of documents also

10     the military reports you were referring to earlier today.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it means all the underlying materials from

13     paragraph 4.33 you hinted at.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 08680.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic [sic], I'm also looking at the clock.  I

16     don't know how much time you would need with that document.

17             MR. WEBER:  I will try to go through very quickly.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, by speaking very quickly, you mean.

19             MR. WEBER:  Hopefully --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If it is one or two minutes, okay.  If it's more,

21     we'll take the break now.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. WEBER:  It's okay, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I made a mistake.

25             MR. WEBER:  Process of elimination --

Page 41611

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic will be happy we're thinking of him even

 2     if he's not present in the courtroom.  My apologies to both of you.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   This the JNA 2nd Military District report --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, I said if you can do it in one or

 7     two minutes, fine.  Otherwise, we'll take the break.

 8             MR. WEBER:  I'm going to try to with a few questions.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   This is the 2nd Military District report for 22 April 1992.  Did

12     you review this document?

13        A.   I did review it.  I looked at the main points that I thought were

14     relevant to me, yes.

15        Q.   Okay.  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both versions.

16             In the section on the 4th Corps, there's reference to the very

17     complex situation that threatens to escalate into large-scale interethnic

18     clashes and then it states:  "The overall situation in Sarajevo is

19     creating even [sic] greater uncertainty and concern among the population.

20     At about 1900 hours, heavy weapons again opened fired [sic] on Sarajevo

21     old town."

22             You did not include the fact that the Sarajevo old town was fired

23     upon on this date in your discussion of 22 April 1992, did you?

24        A.   Conflicts had already broken out between JNA units and

25     paramilitary Muslim formations.  These conflicts were going on for

Page 41612

 1     already a month.

 2             As for this here specifically, where was this projectile fired

 3     from and from which unit?  That you don't see anywhere here.

 4             At that time there was no cease-fire or peace.  On the 6th of

 5     April, the civil war had already started; and on the 12th of April, the

 6     Presidency of the BiH issued a decision or a directive, which we

 7     discussed, regarding the attitude or the position towards units of the

 8     JNA as enemy forces.  The same situation was the same here, on the 22nd

 9     of April.

10             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the document into evidence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 08680 receives exhibit number

13     P7678, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

15             Then we'll take the break now.

16             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  We'll take a

17     break and resume at five minutes to 11.00.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  While the witness is not in yet, Mr. Weber, I would

22     like to briefly address the following.

23             On the 16th of November of this year, during the testimony of

24     this same witness, Mr. Mitar Kovac, D1357, an excerpt from the manual on

25     the Law on Armed Conflict was marked for identification pending agreement

Page 41613

 1     between the parties as to the excerpt to be tendered.  That's found at

 2     41379 to -380 and 41472 to -473.

 3             On the 18 November the Defence advised via e-mail that the

 4     parties agreed on the excerpts to be tendered into evidence and uploaded

 5     into e-court as document bearing Rule 65 ter number 1D01255a.  The

 6     Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace D1357 with a new excerpt

 7     and admits D1357 into evidence.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Weber -- please do not proceed because

 9     Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for the witness.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Kovac, before the break I said to you that,

12     please, include in your list of documents also the military reports you

13     were referring to earlier today.  And then you said:  I don't understand.

14             And therefore, I would like to help you to understand what I'm

15     talking about.  On page 20 were asked by Mr. Weber:  "But could you not

16     locate a single military document that discusses the events of 22

17     April 1992?"

18             Your answer was:  "Yes, I found them, and I looked at them."  And

19     then you continued:  "Including those two video reports."

20             These military documents you said you found them and looked at

21     them should be included in the last you promised us, to give us, next

22     week.

23             Do you understand now?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  I have a part of

25     these document with me on my laptop, and I'm not sure if I have one or

Page 41614

 1     several reports, but I do have these two video reports.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The second item I want to raise you -- and that

 5     can be found on page 7, there you said to a question of Mr. Weber:

 6     "Sarajevo, Srebrenica and Zepa, because these are the main elements of

 7     the indictment."

 8             I would kindly ask you to help me to find reference to Zepa in

 9     the indictment.  Can you help me in that respect?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're talking about protected areas

11     so, of course, because of the operation itself, the context of the area,

12     I also spoke about Zepa.  When you speak about Srebrenica and everything

13     that happened in relation to Srebrenica, then it was normal also for me

14     to look at that area around Zepa as well.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But you said something else.  You said:  These

16     are the main elements of the indictment.  Zepa as a main element of the

17     indictment.  Or was it just a slip of the tongue?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's being presented differently,

19     out of the context.  When you talk about Krivaja 95 operation then both

20     protected areas are referred to.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you not answering my question or

22     understanding it.  Or at least you are not answering it.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Mr. Kovac, at the outset of today, I asked you for a reference to

Page 41615

 1     where I could find a document from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and I --

 2     the transcript, and I believe I heard you to say paragraph 497.  Did I

 3     understand -- is that correct, that that's the paragraph where I would

 4     find the document from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

 5        A.   I noted a number of paragraphs here but the one that refers to

 6     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps is paragraph 169, footnote 433.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8        A.   Again, let me repeat that: --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to repeat

10     these numbers.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   Sir, could you please repeat the numbers you just provided.

13        A.   Paragraph 4.196, footnote 433.

14        Q.   I will now go to try to check that at the next break.  Thank you

15     for clarifying.

16             At transcript page 41347, you stated:  "Communications systems

17     were mostly obsolete.  They consisted mainly of the assets of the former

18     JNA, and these communications systems did not make it possible to have

19     realtime communication.  Superior commanders received a picture of the

20     situation on the ground, mainly through reports from lower commanders."

21             The statement is not true because from the very beginning - and

22     I'm referring May 1992 - each VRS corps was required to provide oral

23     reports to the VRS Main Staff twice a day through a secure line in

24     addition to the written reports by the various commands; right?

25        A.   What I said is correct.  This part refers to the comms between

Page 41616

 1     the operations level and the Main Staff.  I was speaking generally about

 2     the system of communications at all levels of command.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P3057.

 4        Q.   This is a 13 May 1992 order from General Milovanovic based on an

 5     oral order from General Mladic.  It requires each corps to call the VRS

 6     Main Staff on a secure line twice a day; correct?

 7        A.   That is correct.  And I did see that requirement at several

 8     places, and a relationship defined in that way between the operations

 9     level and the Main Staff so I'm not disputing that type of communication

10     between the operational and the strategic levels.

11        Q.   Okay.  Just so I know, have you ever seen this document before?

12        A.   Yes.  And this requirement of reporting is mentioned in other

13     documents as well.  Daily reporting requirement.  But they don't always

14     say that it would be the personal contact between the commander of the

15     Main Staff and the corps command, but in their absence it could be the

16     chief of the Main Staff or the corps' Chief of Staff or the duty

17     operations team at the corps because sometimes there would be situations

18     when either the commander or the chiefs of staff of the corps were not

19     personally present.  But there was communications between these two

20     levels.  There was a reporting requirement twice a day, yes.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution also please have Exhibit D333.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What we discussed -- if I'm not mistaken that the

23     translation into English contains a mistake.  The name of the -- of

24     Manojlo Milovanovic is translated as Milanovic by mistake.

25             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Hopefully that was not

Page 41617

 1     my ...

 2        Q.   Sir, this is an order from the 65th -- command of the

 3     65th Protection Regiment dated 23 December 1993.  Again, it's based on a

 4     verbal order by the chief of the Main Staff of the VRS, regarding

 5     reports.  It states that there should be written regular combat reports

 6     and "in future, regular reports will not be written but the regiment

 7     Chief of Staff will call Colonel Miletic on the telephone ... every day

 8     at 0800 hours and 1900 hours ..." on a specific extension.

 9             This is another example of oral reporting that was done between

10     the subordinate commands and the Main Staff; correct?

11        A.   These are staff units that had the same requirement as the corps

12     command, as the command at the operational level.  Yes, that's how it

13     was.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 1D05358.

15     Oh, if I could please go to page 239 in the B/C/S and page 241 in the

16     English.

17        Q.   In your report, in the first paragraph of your summary and

18     conclusions, paragraph 6.0, you state:  "It is difficult to rationally

19     and objectively explain the roots of the hatred between Muslims and

20     Orthodox Serbs.  It is a historical fact that almost all Muslims

21     (Bosniaks) in the territory of BH and of the former Yugoslavia are too

22     [sic] too are of Serbian ethnic origin and that only Islam, as a

23     religion, separated them from the essence of their national being.

24     Encumbered by the syndrome of conversion and co-operation with the

25     occupying regime of the Ottoman Empire, exposed to the scorn of their

Page 41618

 1     Serb brethren and compatriots, they sought a new identity.  Over time,

 2     this need for being different increased and during and after the civil

 3     war in BH, it became even more pronounced, through an attempt to revise

 4     historical facts and destroy everything that they had in common with the

 5     Serbs, primarily the past, language, culture and similar."

 6             Do you stand by this statement?

 7        A.   This is not just my statement.  This is a position that is based

 8     on historical facts and I stand behind every word that is stated here.

 9     Yes, yes, I stand by it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, would you please avoid saying that this is not

11     just your statement.  This is your statement as put to you, and you stand

12     by it.  Whether others share it was not asked.  And apart from that, but

13     I'm perhaps also looking at Defence, it seems to be expert opinion which

14     is beyond the field of expertise of this witness.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. WEBER:

17        Q.   I just want go to one more related comment before I ask you some

18     documents.

19             Could the Prosecution please have page 185 in the B/C/S and page

20     187 in the English.

21             At the end of paragraph 5.11 of your report, where you are

22     discussing the importance of the Podrinje for Serbs, you state:  "An

23     obvious example is the so-called Bosniak language, which essentially does

24     not exist as such but is part of the Serbian language.  Under political

25     influence many terms from the Croatian language have been forcibly

Page 41619

 1     introduced into that language.  Such subordination and domination are

 2     elements of the imposition of a cultural paradigm which is not

 3     historically intrinsic to Muslims, whose biological roots are in the

 4     Serbian people."

 5             Do you stand by this statement?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I take it these were also the views of General Radinovic, which

 8     is who you cite in footnotes 473; correct?

 9        A.   That is correct.  We discussed this issue a number of times.

10        Q.   Do you teach this view about Muslims to your students?

11        A.   I convey it to them in the same way, in lectures; also in my

12     studies, in my books.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P6647 for

14     the witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  In that footnote, Witness, you refer to

16     Mr. Radinovic's testimony in Belgrade.  Could you tell what testimony it

17     was and what case?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't a testimony.  It was a

19     conversation between two people.  I said that I have known him for

20     decades.  I have a friendly relationship with General Radinovic.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because the footnote reads testimony.  But

22     it's a conversation.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   These are the SRK guide-lines from Colonel Luka Dragicevic who at

Page 41620

 1     this time was the assistant commander in SRK for morale, religious and

 2     legal affairs.  In the fifth paragraph, the guide-lines state:  "Our task

 3     is to strengthen the combat morale of our soldiers and officers, and to

 4     build up confidence in our own compatibilities and in the excellence of

 5     Serbian arms.  Yes, we are genetically stronger, better, more handsome,

 6     and cleverer.  Try to remember how many Muslims there were among the top

 7     ten pupils, students or soldiers.  Only a few.  Why?  Because they are

 8     poturice and only the weakest of the Serbs became poturice.  A solid and

 9     well thought out punch on the nose would make them change their fate once

10     again."

11             Do you share these views?

12        A.   No.  Quite the contrary.  Everything that I said speaks of the

13     same genetic national entity.  We're talking about the same people who

14     became different on the basis of their faith.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his last

16     sentence.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's one people, two different

18     faiths, and because of that faith, a new ethnic group was created.  These

19     are facts, these are things that date back 500 years.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   I put it to you that General Dragicevic --

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I think the translator asked for part

23     of it to be repeated and I think Mr. Weber may have missed that.

24             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  I did.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please read in the transcript where it

Page 41621

 1     was.  Because it was already a few lines ago, Mr. Weber, if you would --

 2     so that you guide the witness.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   Sir, you were saying in response to when I asked you whether or

 5     not you shared the views expressed by Colonel Dragicevic.  You were

 6     answering and saying we were talking about the same people who became

 7     different on the basis of their faith.  And then, did you say something

 8     else after that?  If so, could you repeat it.

 9        A.   First, I said that I not share these views and they are contrary

10     to what was said in the positions presented previously.  I said that this

11     is one people with two faiths.  And then those of the Islamic faith, a

12     new ethnic group was created, first of all, during the Communist era.

13     They were Muslims, and then after or in the course of this war, they

14     became Bosniaks.  So, these are historical facts and they can be looked

15     at when you look at history dating 500 years back.

16        Q.   Colonel Dragicevic is using derogatory language towards the

17     Muslim people in order to advocate subordinates to use violence against

18     them; right?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Weber, could you repeat the name of the

20     Colonel just for the record, please.

21             MR. WEBER:  Dragicevic.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not share these views.  I do

24     not support them and I --

25             MR. WEBER:

Page 41622

 1        Q.   Sir, that wasn't my question.  I was asking you about

 2     Colonel Dragicevic.  Colonel Dragicevic is using derogatory language

 3     towards Muslim people in order to advocate his subordinates to use

 4     violence against them; right?

 5        A.   They are derogatory terms, and they are inappropriate.  They're

 6     inappropriately used.  They're historically incorrect.  And I'm not able

 7     to say what were the motives for him to use them.  They are incorrect and

 8     using them is irresponsible.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we continue, may I take you back for a

10     second to the expert testimony on Srebrenica by Mr. Radinovic.  You said

11     it was a conversation, not testimony.  You refer, however, to page 14,

12     which suggests that there is any document made on the basis of that

13     conversation.  Is there; and are you willing to share it with us?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't dwell on that too much

15     yesterday, the analysis.  We did exchange opinions.  We talked.  We did

16     not draft any kind of a formal document.  There is no document as such.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But in footnote 473, you were referring to page 14.

18     Now, how could page 14 exist if there's no document?  I just -- it reads:

19     Radovan Radinovic, military expert testimony on Srebrenica, Belgrade,

20     2010, page 14."

21             And I asked you previously about in what case that testimony was.

22     You said it was just a conversation.  Now I'm asking you where we can

23     find page 14, and you say there is no document, which puzzles me.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you were telling me

25     about a part of it, without me seeing the document so I wasn't even aware

Page 41623

 1     which footnote we were talking about.  That footnote refers to his

 2     personal text about Srebrenica.  I don't know whether he was preparing a

 3     book, so that was material in preparation for it, but it's his personal

 4     text.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But if you refer to it in a footnote, then that

 6     suggests that it was available to you and that the reader can check the

 7     accuracy of your conclusions or opinions on the basis of this footnote

 8     reference.

 9             Do you have that text?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will take a look to see if I have

11     it in electronic form, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And are you willing to share it with us?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I'm going to see if I

14     have it on my laptop in electronic form.  And if I do, of course, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  Yes, I was just checking

16     whether I had been unclear as to the footnotes.  Well, it was clearly

17     introduced as a citation in footnote 473, so, therefore, let's move on.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Let me just draw the attention of the witness to

19     his bibliography as annexed to his report.  Item 59, it says:  "Radovan

20     Radinovic [B/C/S spoken]," translated as military expert testimony on

21     Srebrenica, D160, whatever that mean, Belgrade, 2000.  In footnote 473,

22     there's a reference to the year 2010.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  As there is in some of the previous footnotes as

24     well, there's always a reference is to 2010.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just wanted to draw the attention of this

Page 41624

 1     witness to this fact when checking his documents and providing us with

 2     more details.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33449.

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I have been informed that possibly

 7     material you're looking for is from the 2000 Krstic report of

 8     Mr. Radinovic.  If that assists.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know.  We asked the witness to clarify 2000

10     against 2010 whether it's evidence or he said it was a conversation

11     just -- we'll hear from him.

12             MR. WEBER:  All right.

13        Q.   Mr. Kovac, I want to look at two documents together.  This is a

14     21 February 1993 SRK command order related to the presentation of the SRK

15     combat readiness analysis for the period of 4 April to 31 December 1992.

16             According to the first paragraph, this event would take place at

17     0900 hours on 27 February 1993.

18             This would have been the first SRK combat readiness analysis

19     during the war; correct?

20        A.   I think so, yes.

21        Q.   The responsibility for providing the closing remarks at such an

22     important event would fall upon the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija

23     Corps, General Galic at the time; right?

24        A.   Well, usually according to regulation, it would be the commander.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, just while we still have it in our

Page 41625

 1     minds, I've checked the B/C/S original.  Footnote 473 has the date 2000

 2     not 2010, so the English translation has a scribner's error.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And would that be true for the other footnotes?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I don't know.  You didn't give the numbers so I

 5     couldn't check any further.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll have a look at it.  Thank you.

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   Sir, I don't know if you completed your answer.  You said:  Well,

 9     usually according to regulation, it would be the commander ...

10             You're referring to the commander of the corps; correct?

11        A.   Yes, yes, the corps commander, the unit commander.

12             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33460.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it released, Mr. Weber?

15             MR. WEBER:  Checking.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the delayed answer is it now is.

19             MR. WEBER:  Correct.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MR. WEBER:  I didn't mean to build in suspense.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   This is the closing speech which in the first line refers to the

25     first analysis of the combat readiness of the SRK.  The speech was

Page 41626

 1     provided to the Office of the Prosecutor by General Galic's Defence in

 2     2001.  You agree that this relates to the combat readiness presentation

 3     that we looked at in the last document; correct?

 4        A.   I think so.

 5        Q.   Under the third point, it states:  "Our priority is that we must

 6     strive for further and full application of the hitherto to criterion of

 7     success.  The value of each individual and each unit is the measure in

 8     which they have safe-guarded the Serbs and Serbian territory and how many

 9     poturice they have liquidated and how much of their territory they have

10     seized."

11             This is also another example, like we looked at in the last

12     document, of using such derogatory language to encourage violence against

13     Muslims; right?

14        A.   This first part of this statement, in terms of controlling the

15     territory and the protection of the Serbian people, is all right.  The

16     second part, which uses the pejorative term "poturice," Turkish convert,

17     is not all right.  But, unfortunately, it was part of the terminology

18     used in the civil war.

19        Q.   You agree it would be really irresponsible for a corps commander

20     to be using such language at such an important event like the

21     presentation of an annual combat readiness event; correct?

22        A.   That second part, I believe, is inappropriate.  The one speaking

23     about Poturice and Turkish territory, et cetera.

24             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ters 33449 and 33460 into

25     evidence.

Page 41627

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33449 receives exhibit number

 3     P7679.

 4             65 ter number 33460 receives exhibit number P7680, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Both are admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   Let's turn to Sarajevo and see if we can agree on a simple

 8     standard military definition of a siege.

 9             A siege is a military blockade of an area where actions are taken

10     to force those inside the besieged area to either surrender or

11     capitulate; right.

12        A.   In our terminology of the art of war, siege and blockade are two

13     different things.  These are not synonyms.

14        Q.   Okay.  A siege is a holding of an area where actions are taken -

15     so something more than just a blockade - to force those inside the

16     besieged area to either surrender or capitulate; right?

17        A.   That's exactly where the difference lies.  Blockade does not

18     force those who are inside either to surrender or to leave that place.

19     Neither the civilian population nor the military forces, if it's a

20     defended city.  And that's where the difference lies between siege in its

21     archaic and medieval meaning and blockade as a legitimate military action

22     taken and accepted by all armies.

23        Q.   At the end of paragraph 4.56 of your report --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we do that, Mr. Weber, I'm not quite

25     sure that the witness accepts your definition of siege in any way.  I

Page 41628

 1     mean, now that you defined it without using the word "blockade."

 2             Can we hear from the witness do you agree with the definition as

 3     reformulated, sir.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't agree.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             Thank you --

 7             MR. WEBER:  I'll just it give one quick chance to see if maybe I

 8     can break it down simply.

 9        Q.   Do you agree a siege involves military forces holding an area?

10        A.   That they holding an area, yes.  But you also put other elements

11     in the definition which do not correspond to the blockade.  That is,

12     forcing the population and military forces, et cetera.

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... the area that they hold, you

14     agree, surrounds the besieged area; correct?

15        A.   Geographically, the space is such that you can say that they are

16     encircling it and Sarajevo was never encircled.  I mean, the Muslim part

17     of Sarajevo.

18        Q.   I'm just going step by step to see if we can agree on the

19     concepts.

20             The area what is encircled then by the forces, there are then

21     actions taken to force those inside that area to either surrender or

22     capitulate; right?  And I'm leaving it broad because there are different

23     types of actions that could be taken.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I will object to the question as being

25     vague because we're talking about vagueties [sic].  If we're talking

Page 41629

 1     about a military expert and expertise, there are texts, there are

 2     military texts, there are military sources that give definitions.  I used

 3     some in direct.  I don't see why the Prosecution is using vague

 4     terminology.  Actions, what kind of actions?  Why don't we talk about

 5     specifics here?  Instead of at hour five of the cross-examination, we're

 6     talking about vagueties.

 7             MR. WEBER:  I'm trying to agree on a basic definition.  And I --

 8     we'll get to many different actions here.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, first of all, do not interrupt Mr. Ivetic when

10     making an objection.

11             If you say you'll further specify perhaps you could do it the

12     other way around.

13             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  Sure.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  First, pay attention to specific actions and see if

15     you can agree on any definition.  Apart from that, of course, this

16     Chamber is primarily interested in the facts rather than whether you

17     could qualify them as A, B or C, because it's not the qualification, it's

18     the factual situation that will guide us primarily.

19             But, please proceed.

20             MR. WEBER:  Let me try this a different way.

21        Q.   At the end of paragraph 4.56 of your report, you state that

22     General Michael Rose said in his book that Sarajevo had not been a

23     besieged city.  I take it you referenced General Rose on this point

24     because he is clearly someone of such military experience that he would

25     certainly know whether or not Sarajevo was even under siege; right?

Page 41630

 1        A.   Yes, that's the meaning in which I used it.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33442 for

 3     the witness.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Weber, you referred to paragraph 4.56 of the

 5     report.  Can you verify, please, the number.  I don't know find such a

 6     paragraph.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Page 124, Your Honours.  In English.

 8             MR. WEBER:  It's at the very end of the paragraph, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   This is General Rose's book.

12             MR. WEBER:  Could we please go to page 18 which is the first page

13     of the text of the introduction to the book.

14        Q.   General Rose's book starts:  "When I arrived Sarajevo at

15     night-fall on the 23 January 1994, it had been a city under siege for two

16     years and seemed deserted.  Amid the rubble of shattered buildings, its

17     350.000 inhabitants were living like rats in cellars, only venturing out

18     at night to search for their means of survival.  Sarajevo was where the

19     war had started but would not end."

20             Did you read the very first paragraph of General Rose's book?

21        A.   No, I did not read this paragraph.  Of course, in drafting my

22     military expert report, I used people who knew English well, and who

23     found this passage regarding his view of the siege.  This passage here

24     I'm not disputing it.  It was his personal feeling on the day or the

25     night when he arrived there.  And I can also add that Sarajevo looked

Page 41631

 1     like a ghost town ...

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 46 of the

 3     book.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so --

 5             Do I understand that English texts you're relying on that you

 6     didn't read them yourself or that you relied on others who had read it

 7     for you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.  Because my

 9     main second language is Russian.  I know English only at beginning --

10     beginner's level.  Very basic understanding.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             MR. WEBER:  Could we please go to page 46 of the book.

13        Q.   Sir, I'll read the paragraph.  It's the third paragraph on this

14     page, where General Rose says:  "I might as well have saved my breath.

15     The next morning, the headlines in the local newspaper, the Oslobodjenje,

16     reported that I did not consider the citizens of Sarajevo to be under

17     siege.  Neier also wrote to the Secretary-General of the UN urging him to

18     order me to 'reverse' my plan to redeploy observers from their task of

19     counting shells, as this procedure kept the international spotlight on

20     the attacks that were being mounted."

21             This is the part of the book that you mean to reference in your

22     report; right?

23        A.   Yes, correct.

24        Q.   The next paragraph?

25             MR. IVETIC:  And I put on the record that the footnote actually

Page 41632

 1     refers to two pages although Mr. Weber has only shown one.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  I just wanted to know if it was a part of the

 3     book.

 4        Q.   The next paragraph --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  And the part of the book that is cited is two pages.

 6             MR. WEBER:  I --

 7             MR. IVETIC:  So you are misstating the footnote.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Not all at the same time.  I think the footnote

 9     states page 40, page 41 and apparently that's a reference to the hard

10     copy.

11             MR. WEBER:  I'm -- Your Honours, I think that I cannot locate any

12     other similar part besides this part in the English version.  So I did

13     try to look for those pages.  If counsel has other pages he would like me

14     to refer to I'd be happy to hear from him over the next break.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He mentioned page 41.

16             MR. WEBER:  But, Your Honour, if I may continue.

17        Q.   The next paragraph General Rose states:  "It was clear to me that

18     this adverse publicity against me in my time in command could prove

19     disastrous.  So I immediately called a meeting with the prime minister,

20     Haris Silajdzic, and explained to him that whoever had reported my views

21     to the ... papers had got it wildly wrong."

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  "To the local papers."

23             MR. WEBER:  " the local papers had got it wildly wrong.

24     What I had actually said was that I did not want to develop a siege

25     mentality and that I wished to live in Sarajevo like any other citizen."

Page 41633

 1        Q.   When you were looking at General Rose's or when you had General

 2     Rose's statements referred to you did you consider whether or not he had

 3     actually repudiated them or rejected them in his own book?

 4        A.   From this, we can clearly see the political but also the media

 5     influence on the stances of General Rose.  I think that --

 6             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... would you please

 7     answer the question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am trying to answer.  Could he

 9     then put the question more precisely?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think Mr. Weber it was a pretty precise

11     question but perhaps you repeat it, Mr. Weber, so as to assist the

12     witness.

13             MR. WEBER:

14        Q.   When you were considering the statements of General Rose in his

15     book, did you further consider whether or not he had rejected them, any

16     statements or qualified them any statements in the book itself?

17        A.   If there are two statements, I took the one that is closer to my

18     understanding of the situation in the city of Sarajevo.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to page 50.

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             MR. WEBER:

22        Q.   On this page, in the third paragraph, General Rose describes his

23     views of General Mladic.  In the paragraph, General Rose states Mladic:

24     "Had a reputation among his soldiers for bravery and success in the

25     fighting that took place in 1991 in the Krajina region of Croatia.  For

Page 41634

 1     him, the dominant role of battle was the attack.  He was revered by his

 2     soldiers for his habit of jumping into a tank and leading from the front.

 3     He was also deeply religious and once told me that he prayed every day

 4     for the lives of his men.  Nevertheless, he saw nothing wrong in using

 5     terror as a weapon or civilians as targets for his artillery if this

 6     advanced his strategy.  Mladic suffered rapid changes of mood and used a

 7     combination of persuasion, trickery and intimidation to win arguments."

 8             You do not refer to General Rose's impression of General Mladic

 9     and his willingness to use terror in your report, do you?

10        A.   That's the position of General Rose.  I do not share that opinion

11     and it never occurred to me to include it in my report.  I believe, on

12     top of it, that it's not correct.

13        Q.   Did you review the 16th Assembly Session of the Serbian Republic

14     on 12 May 1992?  You referred to this in paragraph 2.49 of your report.

15        A.   Can we display it?  Of course I did, if it's in the paragraph.

16             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P431, page

17     35 in the B/C/S and page 43 in the English.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for that.  For the record it

19     should be clear that Mr. Weber that you were always referring to e-court

20     pages of the book of General Rose; whereas, apparently the witness in his

21     footnotes, correctly or not, is referring to hard copy pages.

22             MR. WEBER:  Thank you for clarifying that, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Because page 50 in e-court is page 33 in the hard

24     copy.

25             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

Page 41635

 1        Q.   Before you is General Mladic's speech at the 16th Assembly

 2     Session.  At the bottom of the page before you.

 3             MR. WEBER:  And Your Honours, this is the middle of the page in

 4     the English.

 5        Q.   General Mladic states:  "With artillery, I will clear the path

 6     for the soldiers.  What I do care?  I do not have to go down Volunteer

 7     Street.  I shell them until I have driven him crazy.  Once we have driven

 8     him crazy, he will either flee of his own accord or, he does not even

 9     have to run away.  Once we have approached we will capture him, and let

10     us not play the game of taking prisoners."

11             General Mladic was willing to shell individuals in order to drive

12     them crazy; right?  That's what he says in his own words.

13        A.   Not in that way as you are putting it.  It's a pejorative term

14     for the effect of action against people who are defending themselves, who

15     are in the course of accomplishing missions.  It's classical

16     neutralisation of the target.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'm about to go on a new topic.  If we

19     can take the break at this point.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But before we do that, a few lines further

21     down it also says, "and let's not play the game of taking prisoners."

22             Any comment on that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think we can look at two

24     words outside of the context.  This discusses a situation of one ambush

25     after another against units of the -- the VRS as was done in

Page 41636

 1     Dobrovoljacka Street while the JNA was withdrawing.  I don't know in

 2     which other context I should interpret these words.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that comment.  You may follow the

 4     usher.

 5             Mr. Ivetic, if it would help you in any way on the footnotes on

 6     the testimony whether it's -- we referred to, first of all, 473 where you

 7     say the original says 2000.  Could I draw your attention to 472 where, in

 8     the B/C/S, it says 2010.  To footnote 469, where it says 2010 as well --

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in the B/C/S.  And then to 468 where, in the

11     B/C/S, it reads 2002, whereas in the English, no year is referred to at

12     all.

13             That -- I don't know who prepared the translation of the -- is it

14     a CLSS translation which might then need to be -- to some extent be

15     corrected?

16             Well, I leave it in your hands at this moment.

17             We take a break and resume at quarter past 12.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber apologises for the late re-start.  The

21     witness can be escorted in the courtroom.

22             Meanwhile, I'll briefly deal with Exhibit P3096 which is a SRK

23     combat report, which was admitted into evidence on the 12th of December,

24     2013.  On the 11th of November of this year, the Prosecution e-mailed the

25     Chamber and the Defence advising that:  1, in the first paragraph of the

Page 41637

 1     translation, "Runjevica facility" should read "Runjevica feature," and 2,

 2     a revised translation had been uploaded into e-court under doc ID

 3     0620-1092-1 ET.  The Defence responded on the 12th of November, stating

 4     that it did not object to the replacement of the translation.

 5             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the English

 6     translation of the P3096 with the revised one.

 7             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   Diverzantsko-teroristicka grupa, also known as DTG units, are

11     manned with snipers; correct?

12        A.   I don't know which part of the text or which event we're talking

13     about.

14        Q.   I'm speaking generally.  DTG groups are manned with snipers.  You

15     mentioned them at various points throughout your report.

16        A.   Not necessarily.  The composition and the equipment for sabotage

17     and terrorist groups would be defined by the action they would be

18     carrying out, so it's not always true that they would also have snipers.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P4517, page

20     6 of the B/C/S and page 9 of the English translation.

21        Q.   Sir, this is the 31 May 1993 VRS Main Staff assessment related to

22     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  In the bottom paragraph before you, the

23     assessment states:  "The activities of ..."

24             And in the original, it says:  "Diverzantsko-teroristicka grupa

25     should be used in further operations, as well as ambushes and surprise

Page 41638

 1     activities, so that there is a constant negative effect on the morale of

 2     the Muslim forces and population.  That they have a sense of fear and

 3     constant insecurity from the activities of our forces."

 4             Sir, I put to you that it was the instruction of the VRS

 5     Main Staff for the SRK to use DTG groups to instill a sense of fear

 6     against the civilian position of Sarajevo and not just the Muslim forces;

 7     right?

 8        A.   I can just see the beginning of this document.  Actually, can I

 9     see the beginning of the document?

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Weber, did you hear the request --

11             MR. WEBER:  That's fine.  I don't if know the witness can --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I mean, you put to the witness what the document is

13     and if the witness asks to find -- to have a look at it, then you should

14     give it to him.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             I asked to see the beginning of the document because this term,

17     "sabotage terrorist groups," for the most part in the doctrine literature

18     and documents of the JNA was used to designate parts of enemy groups that

19     infiltrated one's own area of combat.  That's why I asked to look at the

20     beginning.  All the groups that were infiltrated into the enemy

21     disposition were called sabotage groups, or reconnaissance groups.  And

22     that's why I believe that this paragraph that you indicated, in the

23     military sense, is incorrectly written and from my own personal

24     professional point of view, was not properly presented, either as -- in

25     terms of the contents or the heading.

Page 41639

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Sir, this is -- this relates to the VRS forces.  This is a VRS

 3     document.  In the recommendation, the instruction that's in it relates to

 4     the DTG groups of the VRS; right?

 5        A.   Yes, I'm not disputing that that's what it says.  But I think

 6     that that is not in keeping with the doctrinary practice and I think

 7     there is an error made by the person who drafted the document.  They

 8     could have talked about sabotage groups but not about sabotage terrorist

 9     groups.

10        Q.   Okay.  The -- the fact is, is that the SRK used snipers to

11     terrorise the civilian population of Sarajevo.  You're aware of that;

12     right?

13        A.   Not in that way, no.  In my report, I stated findings about the

14     use of snipers by both of the warring parties.

15        Q.   Oh, okay.  So what I'm asking is simply about one of the warring

16     parties.  The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps used snipers to instill a sense of

17     fear into the civilian population of Sarajevo.  You are aware that;

18     right?

19        A.   I believe that that is incorrect.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33361.

22        Q.   Sir, this is a 11 April 1993 ABiH document you reference in

23     footnote 356 of your report, under section A, related to the SRK's

24     grouping of forces.  The document shows that the SRK had snipers nests in

25     the area of Grbavica; correct?

Page 41640

 1        A.   Not only in the area of Grbavica.  Snipers were deployed there

 2     along the entire line of the front, stretching 240 kilometres.  Here,

 3     they're being put in the context only of the inner part of old town but

 4     they were also deployed in the urban areas of the city, on both sides.

 5     Yes.

 6             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 33361 into evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33361 receives exhibit number

 9     P7681, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Therefore, admitted.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   In paragraph 4.148 of your report, you indicate:  "Although the

13     greatest responsibility for civilian casualties in the Muslim part of

14     Sarajevo lies with the authorities and commands in the Muslim part of the

15     city, the civilian population failed to comply with the necessary safety

16     measures that are implicit in an area that has become a battle-field."

17             At the end of the paragraph, by way of illustration, you refer to

18     a single sentence from a United Nations report from UNMO Cutler.  You did

19     not consider all the relevant information from this document when you

20     were drafting your report; right?

21        A.   I don't know what you mean when you say "all the relevant

22     information."

23        Q.   Do you feel that you considered all the relevant information from

24     this report when presenting your analysis in your own report.

25        A.   Yes.  This conclusion was formulated in that manner, yes.

Page 41641

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33452.

 2        Q.   This is the report that you referenced in the footnote, the --

 3     Colonel Cutler's 2nd January 1993 report.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Could we go to page 3, please, and focus on

 5     paragraph 8.

 6        Q.   In paragraph 8, we see the sentence you quote in your report.

 7     It's in the middle of the paragraph.  It states:  "However, the

 8     resilience of the Sarajevo people continues to amaze me.  Most go about

 9     their daily business as if there was no war."

10             Did you read the beginning of this paragraph about the conditions

11     of the hospitals in Sarajevo or the part -- following sentence where it

12     states "there is no question that much of the population would not

13     survive without the enormous air and road lift -- air and road lift of

14     the UNHCR humanitarian aid that comes in."

15             Did you read those parts?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to the first page of

18     the document.

19        Q.   And on this page in the second paragraph, the UN report states:

20     "On the eve of the summit talks on the situation in BiH, there's an

21     uneasy calm laying over the besieged and sorrowful city of Sarajevo.

22     Snow lays on the ground in the city as it enters the 24th day without

23     electricity or water."

24             When you were reaching your conclusions about civilians going out

25     into public and exposing themselves to fire, you did not consider that

Page 41642

 1     they may have needed to go outside due to the lack of utilities or to

 2     obtain humanitarian aid to survive, did you?

 3        A.   I must also note the fact that Sarajevo is a city where I grew

 4     up, where I completed high school, and I know completely that all these

 5     facts are relevant.

 6        Q.   Okay.  If you knew that they were relevant, you don't mention any

 7     of these facts in your consideration of why civilians were caught out in

 8     the open during the war; right?

 9        A.   That is not so.  I wanted to go on to say that Sarajevo, as a

10     city here in this report, is just being -- the part that is being looked

11     at is the old part of the town, the central part.  The same applied to

12     the rest of the town which was under Serb control, the citizens of

13     Vogosca and Ilidza lived in exactly the same conditions.  So the same

14     description would apply to the way they lived also.  That's why I am

15     mentioning it.  The life of the civilian population in the Serbian and

16     the Muslim parts of the city was equally difficult and equally tragic.

17        Q.   Your paragraph relates to the Muslim part of Sarajevo.  So what

18     I'm asking you, sir, is the fact that you did not consider in your

19     analysis of the Muslim part of Sarajevo of why civilians were caught out

20     in the open, the fact that they might had to go out to get humanitarian

21     aid or just water to survive; right?

22        A.   I don't know what you mean, when you say to go out.  You mean to

23     leave the city which was under a blockade?  Is that what you're saying?

24        Q.   No.  I mean to go outside of their homes.

25        A.   Yes, everybody had a need to do that.  They did have the need for

Page 41643

 1     that, yes.

 2             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 33452 into evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33452 receives exhibit number

 5     P7682, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             Witness, could I ask you, in paragraph 4.148 you say these

 8     civilians were behaving irresponsibly, where going out, going to work was

 9     already dangerous.  How do you know when people were moving around, why

10     they did that?  And why do you say that going to work is dangerous that

11     you should have stayed inside for other reasons.  Could you tell us what

12     your basis of knowledge is why all those people moving around were out?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is being discussed here is the

14     line of contact.  We're talking about the population that was in the area

15     of contact and in the combat disposition area of units at the front.

16     This is the direct line of contact.

17             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... my question was

18     about a different thing.  You write in your report:  They unnecessarily

19     went out.

20             How do you know whether it was necessary or not to go out?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This does not refer to the entire

22     city.  It only refers to the confrontation line which was in the inner

23     area of the city.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, that's not what you write in your

25     report.  You say the civilian population failed to comply with the

Page 41644

 1     necessary safety measures that are implicit in an area that has become a

 2     battle-field.  By this, we mean unnecessary movements, taking walks, any

 3     groupings or loitering in the areas at risk.  We've seen evidence of

 4     persons trying to fetch water out of their homes in an area where they

 5     were not safe.  So is it your position that they should have stayed

 6     inside without water and not have gone out and not to group behind the

 7     bridge because they considered that, perhaps, the safest place to get

 8     that water?

 9             Is that your position?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that is not my position.  And I

11     did not express myself that way.

12             I'm speaking about the zone or the immediate zone next to the

13     area of conflict.  The military authorities and the military units were

14     supposed to release the civilian population from those areas so that they

15     would not fall victims there.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you are blaming the civilian population,

17     not only authorities, but you are clearly distinguishing between the

18     responsibility of the authorities and the civilian population failed to

19     comply with the necessary safety measures by going out, unnecessarily.

20             If you happen to live close to where a confrontation line was, do

21     you think you should stay inside and then be without water?  Is that what

22     the population should have done?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The population in the area of

24     the front where the military units were deployed should have been moved

25     out.  That would be the best way to reduce the suffering of the civilian

Page 41645

 1     population and possible casualties.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine that you say that.  But that's not what

 3     your report tells us.

 4             Do you agree that are you blaming the population itself for

 5     failing to take the -- comply with the safety measures?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Quite the contrary.  Later, in

 7     several places, I do say that the commands were supposed to do that

 8     together with the authorities, to move the civilians out of those areas.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, I note for the record that the

10     rest of the paragraph which you didn't read talks about confrontation

11     line and talks about commands, rather than moving people out, encouraging

12     mass gathering in the confrontation line.  So I think the question posed

13     by Your Honour is misleading as to the text in the report because it is

14     in the report.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I read literally from the report the portion.

16             MR. IVETIC:  It's in the same paragraph.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, again, please don't interrupt me.

18             If you think that further questions should be put to the witness

19     to give the proper context then have you an opportunity to do so in

20     re-examination.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   In paragraph 4.16 of your report, you discuss a number of things

24     but amongst them you talk about Islamic religious facilities and cultural

25     centres that paint the picture of Sarajevo as an Islamic city and how it

Page 41646

 1     was no longer a multi-ethnic city but one of the largest Islamic cities

 2     and Islamic cultural centres in Europe.  You also describe how the Muslim

 3     houses have been restored and how the Serb parts are left burned.

 4             When was the last time you were in Sarajevo?

 5        A.   I have been there for the past three years.  Each year

 6     consecutively.

 7        Q.   You agree that's still much visible war damage to many of the

 8     buildings throughout the entire city?  Areas that were held by both ABiH

 9     forces and also VRS forces.

10        A.   What I noticed were just odd parts that were damaged on certain

11     high-rise buildings.  The houses that were demolished, including my own

12     house, have not been rebuilt.  They have been left as they were, and it's

13     been 20 years now since then.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33439 for

16     the witness.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Weber, there seems to be a small e-court

19     crash which needs to be repaired before we can continue.

20             MR. WEBER:  I'm in Your Honours' hands.  The remainder of the

21     material that I do have to go through before handing over to

22     Mr. McCloskey relates to documents in e-court.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I don't know how much time it takes to get

24     back to a functioning e-court system.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 41647

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll be informed about how much time that takes.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I think if we take an early break because it will

 5     certainly take a couple of minutes to have it function again.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I believe Ms. Stewart might be able to

 7     do a little magic.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If you want to give it a try we understood that in

 9     approximately five minutes the e-court problems would be over.  If we

10     could continue on that basis, then let's give it a try.

11             Yes.

12             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

13        Q.   Just for the record, this is displaying 65 ter 33439.

14             If footnote 327 of your report, you reference the final report of

15     the expert commission established pursuant to Security Council resolution

16     780, number S/1994/674.  Before us, are appendices 4 and 5 to the report

17     which can he see referenced at the top of the page with the same number.

18     Did you review these appendices, when you were preparing your report?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Appendix 4 provides an overview of the most frequently hit

21     targets and dates when the shellings were recorded.  Do you agree that

22     areas including the down-town city centre --

23             MR. WEBER:  If we could scroll down on the page, please.

24        Q.   -- Ilidza, old town, Bascarsija, and on the next page, I believe

25     even Dobrinja appears.  Do you agree that these areas -- that these areas

Page 41648

 1     were regularly shelled, subjected to shelling, starting in April 1992?

 2        A.   We see here areas both under Serb and under Muslim control.  And

 3     what "regularly" means, I don't know.  But that there was mutual action,

 4     that's true.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to page 6 of the

 6     document which will be appendix 5.

 7        Q.   There is the appendix describes over 50 Muslim cultural and

 8     religious structures that were damaged by shelling during the war.  You

 9     agree that Muslim cultural and religious structures shelled -- were

10     shelled in Sarajevo and many sustained substantial damage during the

11     conflict; right?

12        A.   Many.  I don't know what that adjective means.  Some were --

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... over 50.

14        A.   I don't know the exact number.  But many of them were occupied as

15     military-use buildings, I know that.

16        Q.   Sir, I put it to that you there's nothing in this document that

17     indicates that.  We're not really able to flip through it right now, but

18     I think can you even see from the heading that there's no information on

19     it.

20        A.   You mean that they were used as military buildings?

21        Q.   Sir, I'm going to move on.

22             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence,

23     65 ter 33439.  If we could reserve a number.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives exhibit number P7683, Your Honours.

Page 41649

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

 2             MR. WEBER:  I do not know if e-court is back up?  Okay.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I more precisely should have said that

 6     number is reserved because it's not available in e-court, whereas I used

 7     the term "marked for identification."

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It will take at least ten more minutes.  Perhaps it

10     would be wiser to take the break first and have a functioning system

11     after the break.

12             We'll take a break and we'd like to see you back in 20 minute,

13     Mr. Kovac.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at quarter past 1.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 12.56 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we -- wait for one second.

19             First of all, Madam Registrar, is the e-court functioning again?

20     It apparently is functioning again.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to raise a matter.

22             The Chamber would like to come back to a comment made by

23     Mr. Ivetic before the break.  Mr. Ivetic, you blamed the Presiding Judge

24     having misled the witness by putting his question to him.  On behalf of

25     Judge Moloto, I have to reject this allegation.  First, it shows a wrong

Page 41650

 1     interpretation of what the Presiding Judge put to the witness.

 2     Judge Orie literally quoted from the witness report and asked the witness

 3     for his comment.  To qualify this as misleading is wrong and

 4     unacceptable.

 5             Second, it is inappropriate to criticise a judge in this way.

 6     Mr. Ivetic, you should think about your language.  If you want to come

 7     back to the Chamber not immediately but after having thought about it.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I must just add that, in fact, there was no basis

 9     for that criticism.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be -- I think Judge Fluegge - and

12     I don't take the primary role here - invited you to think it over and

13     then to address the matter again if you wish.  Therefore, I would

14     previous that the witness is escorted in the courtroom now.  If you

15     wouldn't -- if you wanted to address the matter, Mr. Ivetic, but I'm

16     consulting Judge Fluegge.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You have an opportunity.  That's at least what my

19     colleague considers a wise thing to do, you have an opportunity to do

20     that at the end of this session.

21             We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into the courtroom.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

24             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25        Q.   Mr. Kovac, in writing the Sarajevo section of your report, you

Page 41651

 1     refer to many documents from the ABiH.  I'm going to go through a few

 2     more of them with you.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33358 for

 4     the witness.

 5        Q.   This is a document you reference in footnote 333 of your report.

 6     It is a 9 January 1994 ABiH 102nd MBR order for engineering support for

 7     defence.  It has the same sequential number as the document in your

 8     footnote.

 9             Directing your attention to the second paragraph of item 1, which

10     relates to VRS actions, it states:  "They have shown maximum savagery in

11     operations so far, destroying the city, killing civilian inhabitants, and

12     using them in some cases as human shields."

13             The ABiH materials that you reviewed for your case showed and

14     discussed the fact that the VRS was destroying the city, killing

15     civilians, and, in some cases, using them even as human shields; right?

16        A.   I don't think that's correct, especially this part referring to

17     human shields.  I don't know what the author of that passage meant.

18        Q.   Well, sir, my question was more basic.  I'm not really even

19     asking whether or not you agree with this or not.  I'm just asking

20     that's -- that was information related to the destruction of the city and

21     the killing of civilians that were in the materials that you reviewed;

22     right?

23        A.   But it's inaccurate information.

24             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the document into evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 41652

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33358 receives exhibit number

 2     P7684, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             Mr. Weber, before the break, you have shown through Sanction on

 5     the screen 65 ter 33439 for which P7683 was reserved.  Is it -- it is

 6     released, I take it, in e-court.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then 65 ter 33439 is now receiving P7683.

 9             MR. WEBER:  I believe that the -- okay.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I misspoke.  76 -- no.  7683 was reserved for it and

12     is now admitted into evidence.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   In paragraph 4.81 of your report, you discuss the artillery

16     ability of the ABiH and reference one ABiH document from 12 March 1993.

17     You indicate that the document claims:  "Operations Group Igman has a 152

18     M84 Nora Howitzer and a 152 D-20 Howitzer," and then you include an

19     ellipse.

20             You do not give an exactly accurate depiction of the information

21     in the document and the ABiH's ability to use these weapons, did you?

22        A.   No, that relates to only one part of the front line:  The outer

23     ring of the Sarajevo theatre of war.  And it relates to large-calibre

24     weapons.

25        Q.   You feel that you gave an accurate impression of the ABiH's

Page 41653

 1     ability to use these weapons from the document in your report?

 2        A.   Far from it.  It refers only to some large-calibre weapons.  It

 3     does not reflect the entire artillery of the 1st Corps of the ABiH.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Let's get to the heart of the matter.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33451 for

 6     the witness.

 7        Q.   This is the document from OG Igman that you cite in your report.

 8     The first paragraph indicates that the shells corresponded to the wrong

 9     type of Howitzer.  And the full sentence, which you quote, states:

10     "Operations Group Igman was a 152 M84 Nora Howitzer and a 152 D- 20, and

11     the available shells can not be used unless previously improved."

12             You left this latter part off of your report and inserted an

13     ellipse to conceal the fact that the ABiH could not use the shells for

14     these Howitzers; right?

15        A.   No, that's not right.  It's the same weapon of Russian and

16     Yugoslav manufacture.  The only difference was in the length of the hull,

17     the casing, and it can be solved in the work-shop and it was solved very

18     easily so that second part of the sentence really has no significance.

19     That was just the situation at one moment.

20        Q.   You only cite one document in the paragraph?

21             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution will tender 65 ter 33451 into

22     evidence.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33451 receives exhibit number

25     P7685, Your Honours.

Page 41654

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33364.

 3        Q.   This is an ABiH combat readiness assessment that you appear to

 4     cite on multiple occasions in your report.  In the top half of the page

 5     before -- actually, if we could go to page 2 of the B/C/S and page 3 of

 6     the English translation.  In the top half of the page before you, the

 7     assessment discusses the ability of the VRS to control the city with

 8     artillery and then states:  "Through such a firing system, the efficient

 9     use of our forces in offensive combat has been greatly disabled ..."

10             The paragraph does go on to note achievements in the area of Zuc.

11             You acknowledge that the ABiH's offensive ability had been

12     greatly disabled by the VRS artillery during the war; correct?

13        A.   It's a fact that VRS had stronger artillery forces numerically,

14     but BH army had better conditions for camouflaging their artillery

15     weapons inside the city.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the document 65 ter 33464

18     into evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 33464 receives exhibit number P7686,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   In paragraph 4.56, you state:  "It should be borne in mind that

25     the Blue Routes?

Page 41655

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could you please check whether the

 2     document really bears 65 ter number 33464 or was it 33364?

 3             MR. WEBER:  Thank you very much.  It's 65 ter 33364.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. WEBER:  My apologies.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And that document has now been admitted as P7686.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   In paragraph 4.56, you state:  "It should be borne in mind that

10     the Blue Routes supplying the city with humanitarian relief functioned

11     throughout the war."

12             In paragraph 4.62 of your report, you state that:  "It should

13     also be borne in mind in all of the periods of the war, RS and its army,

14     the VRS, always allowed the passage of humanitarian relief convoys for

15     the civilian population."

16             Your assertions that the Blue Routes functioned throughout the

17     war and that the VRS always allowed the passage of humanitarian aid are

18     false.  Do you agree?

19        A.   No, they're not false.  Blue convoys always passed except in

20     periods when transports were discovered to carry ammunition and

21     explosives.  That's when delays occurred in the passage of humanitarian

22     aid because cases with shells, ammunition, and other lethal assets

23     destined for the ABiH were discovered.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31182 for

25     the witness.

Page 41656

 1        Q.   This is a 15 March 1995 UNPROFOR memorandum containing a

 2     chronology of events for the Blue Routes during their existence.  It

 3     doesn't mention any of the things that you just mentioned but I will go

 4     through a bunch of the entries for you.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 in both

 6     versions.  I'm going to redact my last comment.  In fact, it does mention

 7     it as a reason that was given by the Bosnian Serbs during the course of

 8     the events.

 9        Q.   The first entry relates to a 17 March 1994 agreement to establish

10     the Blue Routes.  Under entry for 26 July 1994 we see that Radovan

11     Karadzic informs UNPROFOR of the cancellation of the agreement on the

12     passage of traffic across the airport and he blames the Muslim activities

13     as the reason, some of the ones that that you just described.  We see on

14     the next date that the roads across the airport were closed.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the next page in

16     both versions.

17        Q.   At the end of the entry for 11 January 1995, related to a series

18     of meetings, there's reference to implementation of modalities from 17

19     March 1994 with the intention of opening the routes no later than 14

20     January 1995.  At the end of that the entry for 15 January, which is on

21     the next page, this chronology indicates the roads remained closed.

22             This chronology does indicate --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Next page in the English, please.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   This chronology does indicate that between 1 February 1995, the

Page 41657

 1     airport routes were opened to international organisations and then later

 2     opened to civilian traffic on 6 February 1995.  The Sarajevo-Visoko

 3     route, according to this, was opened on 10 February and then closed on 25

 4     February 1995.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Next page in English, please.

 6             MR. WEBER:  And if we could go to the final entries.  The one

 7     related to the 12th of March.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give good guidance --

 9             MR. WEBER:  Last page.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- as to where to proceed.

11             MR. WEBER:  Second-to-last page in the B/C/S.

12        Q.   We see according to the 11 March entry that after the sniping of

13     two Serb girls, the Blue Routes were closed then on 12 March 1995.  So,

14     first of all, based on this chronology, the fact is that there were

15     substantial periods that the Blue Routes were not open during the war;

16     correct?

17        A.   I don't think that's true.  I think this states precisely the

18     reasons and arguments supporting my previous assertion.  There was

19     sniping by Muslim forces and the abuse of humanitarian convoys to

20     transport ammunition and weapons.  If this was raised to the level of

21     president, that means that these violations were rather frequent.

22        Q.   I put it to that you the Bosnian Serb forces, the VRS, closed the

23     Blue Routes, for example, on this last occasion in retaliation for a

24     sniping event.  They were willing to do that; right?

25        A.   It was not retaliation.  It was a regular action.  If you let

Page 41658

 1     through a humanitarian convoy and Muslim forces go on to snipe, that's a

 2     causal relationship between these two things.  Because that was the route

 3     of the convoy, the humanitarian convoy.  Maybe somebody was trying to

 4     obstruct the passage of humanitarian convoys, somebody from the special

 5     force, special Muslim forces in Sarajevo.  That's how I see it.  If

 6     somebody is receiving humanitarian aid it's not logical for them to kill

 7     two young girls in that same area.

 8             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 31182 into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives exhibit number P7687, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  It is admitted into

12     evidence.

13             Witness could you tell us where these two Serbs were killed,

14     apart from Grbavica, what special location.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were killed all over the city.

16             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's specifically this report --

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, these

19     two girls could not have been killed all over the city.  I'm asking you

20     about where these two girls were killed.  More specifically than only

21     Grbavica.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not look into the location of

23     every killing but I know the area, the points where killings took place

24     in the city.

25             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 41659

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not write an expert report on

 2     the killing of these two girls.  But it is a fact.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said because that was the route of the

 4     convoy.  Not knowing where they were killed, it -- I need further

 5     explanation as why they were killed at the route of the convoy.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not talking precisely about

 7     the street, but it's -- it was on the route of the convoy, its entry from

 8     the direction of Nedzarici towards Stup and towards old town.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Now Grbavica, is that on the road between Nedzarici

10     and the old town.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The quickest route from Nedzarici to the old town is

13     not on the side of the Miljacka river where Grbavica is, isn't it?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's on the opposite bank but these

15     are parallel roads along the river, yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You say it's close enough.  I have another question

17     for you.

18             You are talking about smuggling of explosives and ammunition and

19     the Chamber has heard evidence about that over limited number of

20     occasions.  How many of these occasions happened, in your view, which

21     would explain that the Blue Routes were not used temporarily?  How many

22     incidents of the smuggling are you aware of?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was a cause-and-effect

24     relationship.  I think that was for the only reason for delays or for --

25             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, why

Page 41660

 1     don't you answer my question?  My question is:  How many incidents of

 2     smuggling ammunition and explosives through convoys of humanitarian aid

 3     are known to you?  Is it two or three?  Is it ten?  Is it 20?  Please

 4     tell me.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact number.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Approximate number?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Around ten times that I know of.

 8     But I did not try to determine the number.  I dealt with the occurrence.

 9     It was already a regular activity and a problem for the -- the Army of

10     Republika Srpska.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say it's a regular activity, then the number

12     is relevant, isn't it, because that makes it either regular or

13     incidental.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If it's several times including the

15     number that I mentioned, it's a regular occurrence in the four years of

16     war.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, Mr. Ivetic, if in re-examination -- I have

18     a recollection of a few incidents.  It's not my recollection that there

19     were ten, but if there's anything there which could assist the Chamber in

20     getting a -- a better knowledge of the -- how regular and how frequent

21     that was that would be appreciated.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 10111 for

24     the witness.  Page 4 of both versions.

25        Q.   This is a 29 March 1995 UNPROFOR report.  In paragraph 11 it

Page 41661

 1     contains information on the Blue Routes and states:  "The BSA have

 2     claimed they will close the Blue Routes for 30 days for every Serb killed

 3     in the Sarajevo area."

 4             This is a threat to cut off humanitarian aid as retaliation;

 5     correct?

 6        A.   No, that's not correct.  Because it's a different context of the

 7     combat situation in the Sarajevo theatre of war in that inner ring.  If

 8     you allow me, I'll clarify.

 9        Q.   Sir --

10             MR. WEBER:  I tender the document at this time, 65 ter 10111.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives exhibit number P7688, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   In footnotes 339 and 340, you quote Asim Dzambasovic's Karadzic's

16     testimony and, for the record, he testified without protective measures

17     in that case.  You quote him for the proposition that there were 60.000

18     soldiers in Sarajevo.  Did you review all of this witness's testimony for

19     your report?

20        A.   Not the entire testimony.  And I also compared other data

21     indicating that, and they are not in keeping with this particular figure.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33484.  If

24     we could go to page 41.

25        Q.   Coming up will be a part of Mr. Dzambasovic's Karadzic testimony,

Page 41662

 1     a different section that the one you cite in your report.

 2             And if we could please start at line 20.

 3             In that case, Mr. Dzambasovic was asked:  "Thank you.  And also

 4     yesterday, in relation to your position as Chief of Staff in the

 5     1st Corps, you were asked about the manpower of the corps, and you

 6     affirmed that it was roughly 60.000 soldiers.  And I have three questions

 7     on this topic.  The first is:  Of that 60.000, how many were actually --

 8     were located outside the encircled city of Sarajevo?

 9             "A.  I personally think -- well, right now, I don't have the

10     exact" --

11             MR. WEBER:  If we could have the next page, please.

12             "... figures here, but I think that in the city, itself, there

13     were about 30.000 men, and that many outside the city as well.  At that

14     time, Gorazde was within the area of responsibility of the 1st Corps too,

15     so the Army of Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the area of Gorazde,

16     was within the 1st Corps.  Also, the unit in Zepa at the time was within

17     the 1st Corps.  That is the period of 1992 and 1993.

18             "Q.  Thank you.  And of the 30.000 who were inside the city, how

19     many were located at the confrontation lines at any given time?

20             "A.  Well, approximately, it is my estimate right now - again, I

21     cannot give you an exact figure - but I think it is between 4.000 and

22     5.000.

23             "Q.  Thank you.  And of the 30.000 soldiers located inside the

24     city, how many of them had weapons?

25             "A.  Well, one quarter, roughly, had weapons."

Page 41663

 1             You did not include this information in your report; correct?

 2        A.   Because it's incorrect.  The commander of the 1st Corps in the

 3     study that I cited provided different data regarding the number of men

 4     and weapons.  That's why I said that there was several sources of

 5     information about the strength of the 1st Corps during the war, including

 6     the -- those who were inside the -- Sarajevo and those outside.  So the

 7     corps commander and his Chief of Staff provided incorrect information

 8     about the number of men.  I believe that the corps commander did know the

 9     information regarding his own corps.

10        Q.   This Chamber has received some evidence on these numbers before

11     even during this time-period from witnesses who have indicated that it

12     was not much more than this number, maybe 35.000, high 30.000s.  You

13     agree that a large amount of the 1st Corps forces were located outside of

14     the city in what you would refer to as the external ring; correct?

15        A.   No, that is incorrect.  The bulk of the 1st Corps forces were in

16     the town, including police and special forces, and independent unit that

17     were linked with the General Staff of the B and H army.  The number that,

18     in my opinion, applied to the town in this figure is about 30.000.  At

19     this time around 1993.  I would not say that it was 4.000.  The entire

20     corps was armed.  There were no unarmed soldiers, and the weapons were

21     not passed back and forth.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 01010.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the problem is, I think, that in footnote

25     339, you presented as if that witness said that there were 60.000 men,

Page 41664

 1     right or wrong, in Sarajevo; whereas, reading the testimony, then it is

 2     clear that he intends to say that there were 30.000 in Sarajevo and

 3     30.000 somewhere else.

 4             That's the problem.  Whether he is right or wrong, because that

 5     now becomes the focus, is not really what is of concern at this moment.

 6     It may be very important.  But, at this moment, the issue is that you

 7     present it as if this witness said 60.000 in Sarajevo where, when reading

 8     same page, next page, just a few lines further down, that he says it was

 9     30.000.  Again, right or wrong, but you are using a source in a way

10     which -- well, perhaps gives us not the full information.  And that's one

11     of the concerns that are expressed by Mr. Weber, and if you want to

12     comment on that, please, have you an opportunity to do so.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I would like to.

14             Quite the opposite.  I said that there were certainly sources of

15     information regarding structure and strength of the 1st Corps in that

16     period and I did present that information in the text.  As far as I was

17     concerned, the most objective information was given by the commander of

18     the corps and his Chief of Staff in monographs that they published after

19     the war.  I did cite them in the footnotes of my report.  The bulk of the

20     forces, roughly two-thirds right until 1995 were situated in Sarajevo, in

21     the inner area of Sarajevo, on a front of some 55 kilometres.

22             MR. IVETIC:  For the record --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not really an answer to my question because I'm

24     not saying that there are no other sources, I'm not saying whether you're

25     right or wrong in your analysis of all those sources.  What I'm saying is

Page 41665

 1     that the concern expressed by Mr. Weber is - and that's what I was

 2     seeking your comment on - is that you present this witness as saying that

 3     there were 60.000 in Sarajevo, whereas reading a few lines furthers down,

 4     he says there were 30.000 in Sarajevo.

 5             I leave it to that at this moment.  Your comment apparently has

 6     not fully addressed the matter I raised.

 7             Mr. Ivetic.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  For the record, paragraph 4.39, which has the

 9     witness's calculations, precisely talks about what was in the city and

10     outside the city.  The report does not, as I read it, rely upon the

11     numbers of 60.000 that is in the transcript citation.  The transcript

12     citation is being cited for other conclusions, and in this section 4.39,

13     the sources for the varying estimates are given and there is a

14     description of the forces that were outside of the city of Sarajevo so I

15     believe if we want to have the record be full and complete, we have to

16     read the entirety of the report, not take matters out of context.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's on the record.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  This is a 1st Corps command intelligence organ report

20     dated 14 July 1993.  We see it's from Asim Dzambasovic.  It indicates in

21     item 3 that Ratko Mladic has ordered that Sarajevo is to be attacked with

22     all available means and that panic should first be created through the

23     use of snipers.

24             Did you find documents like this in your review of the ABiH

25     materials?  This is not one of the ones that in your report.

Page 41666

 1        A.   I did not quote it because this is classic propaganda and part of

 2     media war that was being waged on the Sarajevo front.  I looked at the

 3     ratio of forces, and the number of sniper weapons in the

 4     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and the 1st Corps of the B and H army, and this

 5     objective picture and the ratio of snipers would not give us this

 6     particular result.

 7        Q.   Okay.  You call this propaganda.  We see it's an intelligence

 8     organ report that is marked "Military Secret, Strictly Confidential" and

 9     it's not sent to any media or press.  I see it's sent to all brigades, OG

10     Igman and to the files.  This is a confidential document; right?

11        A.   If it is sent to OG Igman then there are really very little

12     reasons for these things to be mentioned there.  The --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat what he said.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no tactical need for the

16     information referred to in paragraph 3.

17             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 01010 into evidence.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would ask that if --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             Yes, you want to object.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, I do.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine --

23             MR. IVETIC:  The interpreters have asked for the witness to

24     repeat his answer.  We have not had that happen, therefore I will object

25     at this point procedurally to admitting an exhibit without getting the

Page 41667

 1     evidence relating to it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I thought, as a matter of fact, that the witness

 3     continued but could you please -- the interpreters -- let me see where it

 4     is exactly.  Yes.

 5             You are recorded as having said:  "If it is sent to OG Igman,

 6     then there are really very little reasons for these things to be

 7     mentioned there.  The --

 8             And then the interpreters missed what you said then.  And I'll

 9     read to you where they resumed recording what you said.  You said:

10     "There is no tactical need for the information referred to in

11     paragraph 3."

12             What did you say in between these lines?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That the bulk of the snipers from

14     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and from the 1st Corps were located in the

15     inner ring as it is referred to in the documents.  In the inner part of

16     the city.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This being completed now.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 01010 receives exhibit number

21     P7689, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P7689 is admitted into evidence.

23             Witness, may I again draw your attention to really focussing on

24     what is asked.  The last question was about if you call it propaganda,

25     how could an internal document be propaganda?  Now, you may have an

Page 41668

 1     answer to that.  I do not know.  But at least you didn't give an answer

 2     to that question.  If you have an answer, then please tell us what it is.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have an answer to that

 4     question.  The media war was waged throughout the conflict on the

 5     Sarajevo front.  Mostly it was construed by the political aspect and then

 6     it was implemented in the military operational sense.  When I speak about

 7     that operational sense, I'm talking about staged, planted events that

 8     would disturb the international public and allegedly point to the

 9     barbaric actions of the Army of Republika Srpska.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the issue really raised by Mr. Weber, as I

11     understood it, is that if you want to distribute propaganda, as you said

12     the document was, you'd rather not do that in an internal document but do

13     it in a press release or draw the attention of the public, rather than

14     put that into a document which is expected not to go beyond those who are

15     addressed.  That was the issue, I think, Mr. Weber raised and which has

16     not fully been addressed in your answer.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you permit me to continue.

18             That area, the relationship towards the media, was implemented

19     internally through command documents and by utilizing a part of the

20     special forces of the B and H army on the Sarajevo front.  Reports were

21     provided, incidents were staged, there was sniper actions that were used

22     for propaganda purposes.  So the army and their documents were also part

23     of this propaganda machine.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If I understand you well, the input in those

25     internal documents and the effect of the activities taken on the basis of

Page 41669

 1     that, that are the propaganda elements rather than this to be a

 2     propaganda document itself.  Is that well understood?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --

 4             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... thank you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

 6     ... yes, this third --

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P4422 for

 8     the witness.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What's the exhibit number?

10             MR. WEBER:  P4422.

11        Q.   This is a 14 December 1993 supplement to VRS directive number 6

12     to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  This order is from General Mladic.  And

13     in the first paragraph, he orders formations from multiple VRS corps, the

14     MUP and VJ special forces to prevent a breakthrough towards Sarajevo from

15     the direction of Central Bosnia and Gorazde.

16             Just stopping here, this Chamber has received evidence that VJ

17     forces were sent into Bosnia.  Are you aware that this happened at the

18     end of 1993 and beginning of 1994?

19        A.   Yes, yes, I do know about those operations by the Muslim army and

20     they were partially presented in the report both from the aspect of the

21     composition and their objectives.

22        Q.   I'm totally lost at what you just said.  I referred to the VJ,

23     the Yugoslav army and this is a VRS Main Staff document.  I asked you

24     whether or not you were aware that VJ special forces were sent into

25     Bosnia at the end of 1993, beginning of 1994?

Page 41670

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I object to the question.  Actually the original

 2     question referred to the breakout.  I don't believe that the breakout

 3     refers to the JNA or the VRS.  I believe that it refers to precisely the

 4     forces that the witness was answering as to.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 6             MR. WEBER:  I believe my question did focus on the VJ forces.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's any misunderstanding about what your

 8     question was focussing upon, please put it again to the witness so we

 9     don't have any confusion.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   Are you aware that VJ special forces were sent into Bosnia end of

12     1993 beginning of 1994.

13        A.   That was not the question I had earlier.  Could I please have a

14     specific question to which I can give a proper answer.

15             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, you're

16     an intelligent man.  You followed that Mr. Weber was invited to again put

17     a question to you, and then there's no need to comment on the previous

18     question because you should have understood that Mr. Weber now formulated

19     his question so as to avoid any misunderstanding and to receive your

20     answer, not your comment.

21             Could you please answer the question.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to many, actually

23     according to several documents, yes, the B and H army, primarily the

24     document or the monograph of the commander of the 1st Corps, that's where

25     I saw the number and the manner of engagement of a portion of those

Page 41671

 1     forces.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  "Those forces," meaning VJ special force?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They explicitly mention about 30

 4     specials from the Army of Yugoslavia.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But just a follow-up.  You are saying you read

 7     this in document of the B and H army.  The question relates to not a

 8     document of the BH army but a document that comes I think from the

 9     Republika Srpska from the Army of the Main Staff saying, in fact, that VJ

10     forces, special forces be used.  This is the document on the screen.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All it says here is a different

12     number.  I'm not disputing what is stated here or what I said before.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... not asking you

14     about numbers.  I'm saying you are referring to BH documents when, in

15     fact, you are being asked about a VRS document.  It is a VRS document

16     that is saying that VJ special forces be used as part of this operation.

17     So don't deviate from the VRS and then go and tell us about the BiH when,

18     in fact, you are being asked about a document by the VRS.

19             You may proceed.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that it says here ...

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Proceed, Mr. Weber.

22             MR. WEBER:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

23        Q.   I'm just going to try and expedite this so we can finish for the

24     day.

25             We see in this supplement to the directive of -- number 6 that

Page 41672

 1     the end of the point 1 that there is reference to the -- to provide

 2     conditions for the division of Sarajevo into two parts, which I believe

 3     is relatively consistent with your report.

 4             And then if we could scroll down in the English, we see that the

 5     operation is to be carried out in two phases and the readiness for attack

 6     is to be on the 19th of December, 1993.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could we please have the next page in both -- both

 8     versions.  According to the -- actually, I'm sorry.  Might have to go

 9     back to the previous page in the B/C/S.

10        Q.   We see under point 2, this was operation was called Operation

11     Pancir-2 and, again reference to Operation Pancir-2 at the very end of

12     the document.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 33007 for

14     the witness.

15        Q.   This is a 9 February 1994 SRK command report from General Galic

16     from the Butile forward command post to the VRS Main Staff, which says to

17     the Lukavica KM for their information.

18             If we could focus on item 5 of the report which is on page 2 in

19     both versions, General Galic states, among other things:  "The directives

20     and decisions of the Supreme Command are being implemented."

21             Then under item 8, General Galic states:  "The decision on

22     further operations remains unchanged.  Active and decisive defence of all

23     positions while creating conditions for the continuation of Operation

24     Pancir and camouflaging of defensive positions in keeping with the new

25     military and political situation."

Page 41673

 1             This Chamber has received evidence that there was quite

 2     significant activity, shelling activity that commenced at around the 20th

 3     of December 1993 coinciding with these operations and they continued

 4     throughout the month of January and in early February.  Do you agree that

 5     this report here shows that the directives and supplements that were

 6     issued by General Mladic were continued to be in effect and the SRK was

 7     continuing with Operation Pancir between the end of December 1993 and 9

 8     February 1994?

 9        A.   I don't agree in that particular way.  This is a different

10     interpretation of the actual situation on the ground.  If you wish, I can

11     explain.

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders the last

13     document into evidence and I believe, yes, the Defence for an opportunity

14     to potentially have a moment at the end of today's proceedings and I can

15     stop here.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We will at least adjourn for the day very soon.

17             Witness -- first of all -- no, we can deal with that once the

18     witness has left the courtroom.

19             Witness, we'd like to see you back at 9:30 in the morning on

20     Tuesday, I think, it would be.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just -- could the parties assist me?  The

23     videolink evidence for Monday how much time would that take.

24             MR. IVETIC:  It's not videolink, it's live.  It may take a part

25     of Tuesday as well, based upon the estimates.

Page 41674

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please -- could you please remain

 2     available on Tuesday, the 24th of November in the morning hours, when,

 3     most likely, we'll resume hearing your testimony.  And I again instruct

 4     you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way with

 5     whomever about your testimony.  If that's clear, you may follow the

 6     usher.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  Thank you.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the last document tendered, Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33007 receives exhibit number

11     P7690.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P7690 is admitted into evidence.

13             Mr. Lukic [sic], you have drawn our attention to paragraph 3.

14     Mr. Ivetic, yes.  I'm in a bad condition today.

15             Mr. Ivetic, you have drawn our attention to paragraph 438 of the

16     witness's report.  Could you perhaps verify because I see that one of the

17     sources there is again Radinovic expert report in 2000 with a page

18     numbers on it and there are a few other footnotes there, where it's a bit

19     unclear to me whether that's material which is in evidence or is not in

20     evidence, such as a statement Mr. Koljevic apparently gave to the

21     Defence, so that we have an opportunity to -- to further look into what

22     you've drawn our attention to.

23             Then the last matter Mr. Weber raised -- I leave that in the

24     hands of my colleagues.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ivetic, you wanted to --

Page 41675

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I do.  Before we get to that, I believe Your

 2     Honour meant paragraph 4.39, not 4.38, since the citations you're reading

 3     are from that paragraph, which is the paragraph I cited to.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  4.39.  That's what I had in my mind.  Footnote

 5     252 and the previous ones.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, first of all, my apologies to the

10     Chamber if my perhaps inartful manner of trying to exercise my

11     professional duties in compliance with my professional obligations caused

12     you dismay.  I stand by the fact that Judge Orie's question, neither read

13     into the record the words and text of the paragraph he was citing which

14     was 4.148, nor the preceding paragraph, 4.147 which I believe both parts

15     contain precisely the language and facts which the Judge's question, as

16     formulated, asserted that the witness had not written in his report.  In

17     such circumstances, I believe it is my obligation to correct the record.

18             And that's all I have to say.

19             Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ivetic, I think it's not time to discuss it

21     at length, but one thing I would like to draw your attention to, that

22     is -- just a moment.  Page 55, line 13, and -- no, 56, line 7.

23     Judge Orie said:  "You are clearly distinguishing between the

24     responsibility of the authorities and the civilian population failure to

25     comply with the safety measures by going out unnecessarily."

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 1             Judge Orie made it very clear that there are -- that the report

 2     refers, on one the hand, to the authorities and, on the other hand, to

 3     the civilian population, that they failed to recognise their safety

 4     needs.

 5             I leave it to that.  I take it that you apologised in a very

 6     reserved manner.  I think we should leave it to that for the moment.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll adjourn for the day and resume on Monday, the

 8     23rd of November, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of

11                           November, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.