Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 41840

 1                           Wednesday, 25 November 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that the Defence had one preliminary

12     matter to raise.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  Yesterday Your Honours had asked

14     for assistance to locate the particular Article 60 of the

15     Geneva Conventions that was the subject of the discussion as to the --

16     self-defence upon being attacked.  We have two witnesses who have

17     provided evidence as to that.  The first is GRM097 at transcript page

18     40083 -- pardon me, 40085, line 13, through 40086, line 25.  And the

19     second is the witness we have today, the expert, Mr. Kovac, in his expert

20     report, 1D5358, page 189, paragraph 5.2 of the same, where it is

21     described as Article 60 of Chapter V under the heading:  "Localities and

22     zones under special protection" of the protocol additional to the

23     Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949.  And Mr. Kovac specifically

24     references paragraph 7 of Article 6 [sic] of this protocol.

25             Thank you.

Page 41841

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which is not about self-defence primarily but

 2     not indeed as the self-defence as understood in Article 51 of the UN

 3     Charter.  That's a different kind of a --

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Exactly.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I better understand now what you were

 6     referring to.  That's ...

 7             Yes.  Thank you for that information, Mr. Ivetic.

 8             I'd like to briefly move into private session before we re-start

 9     with Witness Kovac.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

Page 41842

 1             Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome back in court, Mr. Kovac.  It takes a while

 4     to get in and out.  We regret that, but we were unable to change it.

 5     We'd rather would have preferred to hear your evidence in one flow,

 6     but --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we hope to conclude today.  Perhaps needless to

 9     remind you, but I still have to do, to remind you that you're still bound

10     by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

11     testimony.

12             Mr. McCloskey will now continue his cross-examination.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning.  Good

14     morning, everyone.

15                           WITNESS:  MITAR KOVAC [Resumed]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

18        Q.   And good morning, General.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   As you know, we're continuing the Prosecution cross-examination

21     as the -- as Mr. President told you, and you haven't had a chance to

22     answer my questions as yet.  But hopefully if you listen to the question

23     and answer briefly, we'll be able to all leave in a short time.

24             Mr. Ivetic spoke to you in direct examination and you answered

25     questions briefly about the time-period that General Mladic was outside

Page 41843

 1     the RS and the rules related to whether a person would take over command

 2     or not.  Let me read you the question that Mr. Ivetic gave you and your

 3     answer, and then I'll ask you a couple of questions on this point.  And

 4     this was at page 41393 of the transcript, and the question by Mr. Ivetic

 5     was:

 6             "And by operation of the rules, of regulations, who would be that

 7     someone on the ground who commands when the commander is away?"

 8             And your answer:

 9             "In this specific case, there was no obligation for the commander

10     of the Main Staff to be present constantly.  His second-in-command is the

11     Chief of Staff, General Milovanovic in this instant case, who was dealing

12     with problems in the western part of the theatre of war, in Krajina, in

13     the area of operation of the 1st and 2nd Corps, because there was already

14     intelligence that the Croatian army and the BiH army were planning an

15     incursion into the area of the VRS.  Documents were signed by

16     General Gvero when Mladic was absent.  According to the rules, it was

17     possible for a member of the command, the eldest officer in a certain

18     area, to represent the Main Staff, and I believe in this case that's what

19     happened."

20             Now, from your study of the materials, what dates after the fall

21     of Srebrenica was Mladic absent from the RS?

22        A.   Judging by the documents that I analysed, it was 14 to 17 July.

23        Q.   And were you aware of the agreement between the Prosecution and

24     the Defence that General Mladic crossed over into Serbia the afternoon of

25     14 July from the Zvornik area?

Page 41844

 1        A.   I didn't know exactly about which crossing it was because it

 2     wasn't relevant to me, but it was the period that was relevant.

 3        Q.   And you mention in your testimony that documents were signed by

 4     General Gvero when Mladic was absent.  What documents were signed by

 5     General Gvero on the 14th, 15th, and 16th of July?  You don't have any in

 6     your report.

 7        A.   I mentioned two documents.  One of the documents, I think, is

 8     referenced in the report, and it relates to the treatment of prisoners

 9     and the need for increased security measures in the zone through which

10     the column from Srebrenica was trying to break through and search of the

11     terrain.  That document was of 13 July, if I remember well.

12        Q.   Yes, I agree, it was the 13th of July.  But that was not the

13     period that General Mladic was out of the RS, was it?

14        A.   No.  But he must have been outside of that zone because I don't

15     see otherwise why General Gvero would have signed this document on the

16     13th.  I think already on the 13th, Gvero was the most senior officer

17     from the Main Staff in the protected areas of Srebrenica and Zepa.

18        Q.   Did you learn from your study of the documents that not only was

19     General Milovanovic in the Krajina, but General Tolimir was in Zepa and

20     General Gvero was at the Main Staff headquarters in Han Pijesak on the

21     13th of July?  You agree?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   And did you learn from studies of your materials that on the

24     13th of July that General Mladic was with his troops on the ground in and

25     around the Bratunac area, the Sandici meadow area, the Nova Kasaba area,

Page 41845

 1     and on the evening of the 13th of July in the Vlasenica command post?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And on the 13th of July at the Vlasenica command post,

 4     General Mladic held a small ceremony and -- where he announced that

 5     General Krstic was now the commander of the Drina Corps and

 6     General Zivanovic was not.  Did you learn that as well?

 7        A.   Yes.  Now this question of the ceremony, it was the usual way of

 8     imparting information during military operations to say that somebody

 9     else took over the duties of the corps commander.

10        Q.   Yes.  And did you -- were you able to watch the testimony or read

11     the testimony of Richard Butler, one of the Prosecution military experts,

12     in this case?

13        A.   Yes, I did.

14        Q.   And did you read the part of the testimony where he went over

15     documents in Mladic's name and orders from General Mladic on the 14th and

16     15th of July?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   All right.  Let's go on to another topic.

19             I want to ask you about some parts of your report, which we'll

20     recall is 65 ter 1D5358, which I hope to be able to refer to as "the

21     report" after that.  And if we could go to page 238 in the English and

22     page 235 in the B/C/S, and I want to draw your attention to some parts

23     that are in your paragraph 5.162.  You'll see it come up on the board.

24     And you'll note that right after your underlined part at 5.162, you say:

25             "After the commission of the crimes against captured members of

Page 41846

 1     the 28th ABH Division, the Muslim leadership ..." and you go on.

 2             Well, I now want to skip a few lines but you can go ahead and

 3     read those to yourself, the following lines, as we go down, and start

 4     with about the last third of the paragraph.  And I think you're going

 5     to -- we're going to have to go to page 236 in the B/C/S so you can read

 6     along.

 7             You note, and I believe you're referring to the crime against

 8     captured members of the 28th Division as you begin this:

 9             "This crime had not been planned by the political and military

10     leadership of Republika Srpska.  It was probably designed in order for

11     the media to prepare the international community and public to accept the

12     consequences of the operations executed by the Croatian army, the ARBH

13     and the HVO, with NATO air, intelligence and logistics support, in which

14     ethnic cleansing and crimes in the area of Republic of Serbian Krajina in

15     Croatia were committed as well as in the western part of Republika Srpska

16     in BH, when about 2300 soldiers and civilians were killed and over

17     220.000 people expelled from their homes.  The international public

18     neither saw or heard of these crimes, for the crime in Srebrenica was a

19     screen for continuing the genocide against the Serbian people in Croatia

20     and BH which started in the Ustasha NDH and continued in the final

21     operations in the civil war in 1995."

22             Now, you say in this thesis, manifesto maybe, that the crimes,

23     "it was probably designed in order for the media to prepare ..."  Tell

24     us, what has your investigations --

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. Ivetic.

Page 41847

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I'm waiting for the question to be completed, but if

 2     counsel said he is going to refer to it as "the report" and now he's

 3     referred to it as "the thesis" and "the manifesto," we're -- instead of

 4     making things more simplified, we're making it more complicated.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It is -- Mr. McCloskey was quoting the report and

 6     added some comment which is perhaps not needed, but let's wait for your

 7     question.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's the Prosecution's view that this is a

 9     thesis.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's fine.  It wasn't a question.  Of

11     course, unless you want to ask now whether this is a thesis or not, and,

12     of course, such a discussion will end in nothing.  It is to some extent

13     argument.  Apart from that, it's all probability the expert describes.

14     But you'd like to know what the basis is for this assessment of the

15     probability, because that seemed to be your question.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, I'm getting into all these -- I'm trying to

17     get into all these but I can make it simpler.

18        Q.   Sir, in your study of these materials, can you tell us who do you

19     think it was or what was it that was the designer of this thing that you

20     described?  You say "it was probably designed in order for the media,"

21     you're referring to the crimes in Srebrenica.  Who do you think designed

22     this, if it wasn't the Republika Srpska leaders or the VRS?

23        A.   Well, first of all, I have to note that there can be no mention

24     of any thesis or manifest or a subjective view.  The numbers given in

25     this very paragraph are historical facts, and that's why I did not

Page 41848

 1     further explain them.

 2             As for the specific answer to your question, while studying the

 3     activities of various actors or factors that exerted influence on the

 4     occurrence of the crime in Srebrenica, I recognised three distinct

 5     players.  One is part of the international community; second, the

 6     leadership of the Muslims in Sarajevo, both political and military; and,

 7     three, the military and political leadership of Serbia.  All these

 8     players had a direct impact on the positions that I expressed relative to

 9     the operation in Srebrenica.

10             I believe that this crime towards the end of the war was the

11     least necessary to the military and political leadership of the Serbs.

12     Unfortunately, following some decisions after the entry into Srebrenica,

13     this crime unfortunately occurred.  I will remind you of the discussions

14     of General Morillon at that time with the Serbian President Milosevic,

15     when he said that it shouldn't be allowed for Serbs to enter --

16        Q.   Excuse me, sir.  Excuse me, sir, we know that there were

17     international and other forces involved.  What you say here is that

18     it's -- the crime was not designed by RS and the VRS.  You say it was

19     probably designed in order to do something or other.  Who do you think

20     probably designed it if it's not the Serbs, it's not the Serb army or the

21     Serb civilian structures.

22        A.   I think a great part of the impact on the events in Srebrenica

23     towards -- through the Muslim and Serb leaderships was exerted by part of

24     the structures of the international community, and that the decisions

25     both in Sarajevo as well as the decisions of Bosnian Serbs were

Page 41849

 1     unreasonable and irrational.  Among the Serbian political leadership --

 2        Q.   Okay, sir, it was a simple question.  I'll go on to another

 3     question.

 4             Let's stay on your report.  Let's go to page 184 in the English

 5     and page 182 in the B/C/S.  And let's look at paragraph 5.4.  Why don't

 6     you read that a bit to yourself for a minute.  But what I want to read

 7     out and ask you about are the last about six lines of this paragraph.

 8     And that section is -- is this:

 9             "When all these major issues are reviewed, it is possible to

10     speak more objectively about whether command responsibility attaches to

11     General ... Mladic for the crimes that happened, or whether those crimes

12     happened according to someone else's plan, drawing on ethnic hatred and

13     the vast revenge potential and using mercenaries at the recommendation of

14     those who steered the war in BH and who needed the tragedy in Srebrenica

15     to ethnically cleanse and expel Serbs from the Republic of Serbian

16     Krajina and from the western part of Republika Srpska."

17             So here again, sir, you pose in a question whether these crimes

18     happened according to someone else's plan.  Who -- whose plan?  Who's the

19     "someone else" besides the -- General Mladic, the VRS, or the RS

20     authorities?

21        A.   In several places in my report, it is indicated - and I just

22     started to say that a moment ago when I was interrupted - as to who else

23     was involved in this.  Over the past few years, we've heard --

24        Q.   Excuse me, sir --

25        A.   -- several testimonies by --

Page 41850

 1        Q.   That's not my question.  That's not my question.  We've heard a

 2     lot about people being involved in this.  Whose plan was it, if you know?

 3     You referred to someone else's plan not the RS.  Who else planned it, if

 4     you know?  If you don't know, no problem.

 5        A.   Well, I know.  I know.  But I am not allowed to finish.

 6        Q.   You can tell us who -- who planned and you can explain your

 7     answer but you need to answer the question first.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I object to this manner of badgering

 9     the witness by Mr. McCloskey.  If you look at the answer that was started

10     to given by the witness, he's talking about who's involved in the

11     planning, and Mr. McCloskey interrupts him and says:  Answer my question.

12     He is twice now tried to answer the question and has been interrupted.

13     If Mr. McCloskey does not want this evidence, that shouldn't be -- he

14     shouldn't be allowed to badger the witness as if he is not answering the

15     question when he is trying to.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, when you said that the witness said --

17     started his answer by saying who was involved in the planning, he said

18     who was involved which is not necessarily at the planning.

19             MR. IVETIC:  I beg to differ.  He says "involved in this."  If

20     the question is related --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- Mr. --

22             MR. IVETIC:  -- planning and it says "involved in this," it's

23     planning.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you're interrupting me which you're

25     supposed not to do.  It was just the first sentence of what I wanted to

Page 41851

 1     say.

 2             Witness, if you would first tell us who it was or who they were

 3     to whom you referred as someone else's plan, and then explain - and that

 4     may even be the follow-up question - why you think that it was them that

 5     planned rather than, as you said, someone who is charged?

 6             Could you please tell us who it is, or who they are?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the report I

 8     presented the findings that pertained to these people.  Primarily on the

 9     basis of the statements of Alija Izetbegovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You say on whose authority.  Who are you

11     referring to?  You said:  "I presented the findings that pertain to these

12     people."

13             Please tell us who "these people" are.  That's the question.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically it is a quotation, an

15     interview of a journalist with Alija Izetbegovic, and he mentions that he

16     spoke to Clinton --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll stop you -- stop you there.  Do you want to say

18     that it is Mr. Izetbegovic who was the one or one of those who planned

19     it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of the participants -- no, not

21     planned the crime, no.  No.  Let's be clear.  Planned the departure from

22     Srebrenica.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think we were talking about the crimes,

24     but -- so it was Mr. Izetbegovic.  Any other person?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And his conversation with Clinton.

Page 41852

 1     And also presenting the results of his conversation and --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's not -- I'm not asking about

 3     conversations.  I'm asking who that other person is.  Do I understand you

 4     that you deduced from that conversation that Mr. Clinton was one of the

 5     other planners?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not of the crime.  The operation,

 7     yes, the operation in the sense of departing from the area of Srebrenica

 8     and the safe area.  One of the witnesses in that respect is the chief of

 9     the SUP or MUP in the municipality of Srebrenica, Mr. Meholjic, and I

10     present his reports and I reviewed a great deal of material where he

11     precisely says what President Izetbegovic told him as far back as 1993 in

12     Sarajevo.  And the agreement to exchange -- okay.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- you're now moving away from the question

14     because what was read to you was about responsibility for the crimes.

15     That was the portion that was read to you from page 182 of your report,

16     and you're now moving away from it and saying, well, others were

17     responsible for -- for what may have happened or withdrawal or whatever.

18     But you're talking about crimes in page 182, and I think that

19     Mr. McCloskey is focusing on who you consider to be responsible for the

20     planning of those crimes.

21             Now, you've mentioned two names:  Izetbegovic, Clinton.  And

22     you've also said that those you consider not to be responsible for the

23     crimes but for whatever they did in relation to Srebrenica.  Do you have

24     names of those you consider to be responsible for the planning of the

25     crimes?

Page 41853

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, everything I said

 2     previously does not pertain to the planning of crimes.  Or participation.

 3     I mean, I'm directly --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  Okay, fine.  The question was focusing on

 5     where you wrote:

 6             "... or whether those crimes happened according to someone else's

 7     plan," that is, someone else having a plan that those crimes will be

 8     committed.

 9             But I do now understand that the persons you mentioned, that you

10     don't consider them to be responsible for the planning of the crimes, the

11     planning which resulted in the crimes.  My question is:  Do you have any

12     other names?  If so, please tell them; if not, I'll invite Mr. McCloskey

13     to move on.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that at this top level

15     nobody planned crimes directly, a strategic level, neither in

16     Republika Srpska or --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that wasn't the question, as a matter of fact.

18     But, Mr. McCloskey, please move on.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Sir, this part of read out to you, it's not footnoted.  You noted

21     earlier with Mr. Weber that much of your material came from General

22     Radinovic.  Are you getting the ideas expressed or the statements

23     expressed in what I read out from Radinovic or is -- from General

24     Radinovic, or is this a result of your own thought?

25        A.   On the basis of the entire material analysed, these are the

Page 41854

 1     results or conclusions of my research.

 2        Q.   Did that include General Radinovic's work for this particular

 3     part?

 4        A.   As for this particular position, I did not see any conclusions of

 5     his to that effect.

 6        Q.   All right.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go now to 1D06016, page 66 in the English,

 8     page 68 in the B/C/S, and this is a report that General Radinovic made

 9     for the Krstic Defence in the year 2000.

10        Q.   And just to remind us of what we previously saw in your report

11     you said:

12             "... drawing on ethnic hatred and the vast revenge potential and

13     using mercenaries at the recommendation of those who steered the war in

14     the BH."

15             So I want to ask you about mercenaries a bit.  Because we see

16     here in the -- in this paragraph and I'll start reading where it says

17     "Goran Matic."

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That is where, Mr. McCloskey?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's the fifth line down in the English and it is

20     B/C/S page 68.  It's 4.3 paragraph.  And we see it really -- yeah, right

21     there.  They've found it - thank you - in the middle of the page, the

22     cursor found it.  But, of course, the witness can take a little extra

23     time to read the whole 4.3 so he can put it in context.  If -- though I'm

24     not really sure it needs to be, from my perspective.

25        Q.   So here General Radinovic says:

Page 41855

 1             "Goran Matic, the federal Republic of Yugoslavia information

 2     minister, talked about the massacre of Muslim civilians at a press

 3     conference when giving information about results of the investigation

 4     conducted against ... Pauk (Spider) group.  That group consisted of paid

 5     Croats, Slovenes, Muslims, and Serbs."

 6             Now General Radinovic goes on to say:

 7             "French intelligence service organised, equipped, and trained the

 8     group to perform the massacre on [sic] Muslim civilians with the aim of

 9     attributing that crime to the Serbs and declaring the Serb military and

10     political strategy to be criminal and the Republika Srpska as a political

11     result of a world crime.  After that scenario, all violence against the

12     Serbs became legitimate."

13             Now simple question.  In your previous paragraph, you refer to

14     mercenaries.  Are these the mercenaries that you're referring to?

15        A.   Not only they.  Skorpions, mercenaries, the crime they committed

16     against prisoners in Srebrenica, a regular, normal Serb soldier would

17     never do anything like that; that is to say, shooting prisoners in the

18     back and recording that.  That is preparing and documenting crimes and

19     that can only be done by mercenaries for a lot of money.

20        Q.   So you find these -- this statement of General Radinovic credible

21     that I just read out?

22        A.   I'm not talking about that group only.  I've just mentioned the

23     Skorpions, primarily.  In my view, this is a paramilitary group that was

24     not under military control.  I actually spoke about the example of a

25     crime that could be committed only by mercenaries.

Page 41856

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

 2     microphones be switched off when the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   Okay.  So you do find this credible but you want to add to it

 5     people like the Skorpions and others?

 6        A.   I'm talking about principled conduct.  An individual paramilitary

 7     organisation or mercenaries, I cannot speak about that in detail.  But I

 8     have mentioned an example of something that I studied to a greater

 9     extent.  That's the Skorpions.

10        Q.   Simple question:  Is Radinovic's statement credible?

11        A.   I don't know.  Maybe there's a problem with interpretation.  In

12     what sense do you mean "credible".

13        Q.   I think we can go on.

14             Let's go to your report at page 232 in the English, page 230 in

15     the B/C/S.  It's paragraph 5.143.  And you do in your report talk

16     repeatedly about people that you believe are responsible for the killings

17     on the ground, and the part I would read to you is:

18             "The mass crimes of executing the prisoners were probably

19     committed by self-organised paramilitary groups from Podrinje, coming

20     from pre-war criminal milieus, as well as by groups of 'avengers,' whose

21     family members had been killed during the war by members of the

22     28th ABH Division.  They probably committed these crimes in co-operation

23     with some officers from security structures or even on the recommendation

24     and under the influence of external factors which had an impact on the

25     course of the development of the war [sic] in the BH."

Page 41857

 1             Okay.  These avengers that were -- and these self-organised

 2     paramilitaries, what has your investigation revealed?  What sort -- who

 3     did they have co-operation with?  You say you think they had

 4     co-operations with some officers from the security structures.  Which

 5     officers from the security structures did these groups that

 6     self-organised?

 7        A.   What I saw in the documents is the link between what happened on

 8     the ground and the members of the security service, part of the units of

 9     the military police, and parts of -- or, rather, units from the

10     Drina Corps.  But the co-ordination of all those developments went

11     through this security structure and the distribution of prisoners in the

12     area of the Zvornik Brigade.  So I'm referring specifically to the

13     officers of the security organ, starting with the security organ of the

14     Drina Corps to the security organ of the Zvornik Brigade, as the persons

15     that are most frequently mentioned in these documents.

16        Q.   And how about the security organ of the Main Staff?  Did you find

17     that in your analysis?

18        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes.  Yes, mentioned in the report, yes.

19        Q.   So was it fair to say you believe that the security organ of the

20     Main Staff, the security organ of the Drina Corps, and the security organ

21     of the Zvornik Brigade co-operated on the ground with those that

22     summarily executed the prisoners?

23        A.   I don't know in what sense, co-operated.  But that they were

24     involved in this entire endeavour of transferring prisoners, yes.

25     Primarily the organs of security of the corps and the Zvornik Brigade.

Page 41858

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're saying that you don't know in what sense to

 2     co-operate.  Is it not in the sense of co-operation as you have used the

 3     word in this paragraph?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in co-operation with an

 5     exchange of information concerning prisoners, yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, you don't define it in the paragraph.  You

 7     just say "co-operation."  And I suppose that's how the question is also

 8     phrased.

 9             Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Well, tell us.  Who are the security officers of the Main Staff

12     that were involved in this co-operation with the people involved in the

13     killings?

14        A.   Well, Colonel Beara, I think, from the level of the General

15     Staff.

16        Q.   From the Glavni Stab, the Main Staff?

17        A.   Yes, the Main Staff, yes.

18        Q.   And who was the Drina Corps security organ person that was

19     involved with the same co-ordination?

20        A.   Lieutenant-Colonel ... right now I simply cannot remember his

21     last name.  But I remember his rank.  It was that of a

22     lieutenant-colonel.

23        Q.   Vujadin Popovic?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  Thank you for your assistance.  Yes.  Vujadin Popovic.

25        Q.   And the Zvornik Brigade security officer, Drago Nikolic?

Page 41859

 1        A.   Yes, captain.

 2        Q.   And Vujadin Popovic's superior officer and commander was

 3     General Krstic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And Colonel Beara's immediate superior was General Tolimir?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And Colonel Beara's commander was Commander Ratko Mladic?

 8        A.   Not directly.

 9        Q.   He was his commander, was he not?

10        A.   Not directly.  There was not a direct chain of command involved.

11     It was through General Tolimir.

12        Q.   Okay.  And these security organs played a significant role in the

13     murders, would you say?

14        A.   Well, how big was the role played by each and every one of them,

15     I cannot say.  I cannot say that it was the chief of security of the

16     Drina Corps or the Zvornik Brigade is responsible for the crime committed

17     against prisoners in such a place or such a place, but they are the ones

18     that most often appear in documents.  That is the case, yes.

19        Q.   Sir, I think you know, but we're not asking you to give us a

20     numerical count of how often people appear in documents.  We're getting

21     your opinion that these security officers were involved in the conduct of

22     the crimes that were carried out.  They helped co-ordinate with the

23     people; correct?

24        A.   In a way, yes, but they are the ones that were responsible in

25     terms of competence; that is to say, how prisoners of war should be

Page 41860

 1     treated.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to your -- another part of your report.  It's

 3     page 228 in the English and 226 in the B/C/S.  It's under 5.134.  And I

 4     want to start -- it's about seven lines up from the bottom of 5.134, but

 5     take a look at the whole 5.134 so you can get a feel for it.

 6             And on this -- I think on the subject matter we've been talking

 7     about you say:

 8             "It is obvious that the decision to transport the prisoners from

 9     Bratunac to the area of the Zvornik Brigade could not have involved

10     anyone from the Zvornik Brigade command.  Only the security organs of the

11     superior commands of the Drina Corps and the VRS Main Staff could have

12     decided that."

13             So when -- as the Court had seen in this case that when busloads

14     of Muslims were transported on the evening of 13 July from Bratunac to

15     the school at Orahovac near Zvornik, and many, many hundreds, in fact,

16     thousands were transported from Bratunac to schools around Zvornik area

17     on the 14th of July, you're concluding here that only the -- Beara and

18     Popovic could have decided that?

19        A.   I found only that communication in documents.

20        Q.   So do you think they're the ones that played a role in that -- in

21     that movement of prisoners, Beara and Popovic?  Or do you -- are you just

22     telling us what's in -- what documents show again?

23        A.   No, they made the decision for the transfer of prisoners, and it

24     was an unreasonable decision.  And the commander of the Zvornik Brigade

25     says that in his interim report.

Page 41861

 1        Q.   So are you suggesting that Colonel Ljubisa Beara is acting

 2     unknown to General Mladic and not under General Mladic's orders?  Is that

 3     what you're suggesting?

 4        A.   Yes, I think that that is the case.  Because these are questions

 5     that have to do with putting up prisoners and, unfortunately, it was done

 6     the wrong way.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I believe it's break time.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It is.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just have one question in relation to this

11     point.

12             If it was not under the direction of General Mladic, are you

13     aware of any disciplinary measures that Mr. Mladic may have taken against

14     these two people?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that, but that was after

16     finding out, after getting information about the crime, when it was still

17     fresh, probably in August, when other events put distance between that

18     period and Srebrenica.  And, of course, I know that he has disciplinary

19     jurisdiction.  He could have taken disciplinary measures.  But these

20     offences are criminal offences, and that's not something that belongs

21     under command responsibility and the chain of command.  Except to

22     initiate proceedings.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'll follow up after break.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we take that break, I think the parties

25     have received some work product of this witness.  I think we had asked

Page 41862

 1     you to bring military documents you -- you referred to that and you said

 2     you had available.  Now, what was delivered through the intermediary of

 3     the Victims and Witness Section, I couldn't read it, I haven't even tried

 4     to read it, but at first glance, it didn't look that much as a military

 5     document.

 6             I decided that it would be made available to the parties so that

 7     they could do with it whatever they wished to do with it.  There is a

 8     copy without a translation in the hands of Chamber's staff and we're

 9     not -- at this moment I think we don't have anyone who can read the

10     language.  So we just have it there and wait and see what the parties

11     will do with it.

12             Mr. Weber.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, that's understood, your communication.

14     With respect to the document, though, the Prosecution doesn't view it as

15     responsive to just the information and list that was requested.  In our

16     brief review of it and attempted review with the translation, it appears

17     to be a further analysis now citing some things.  So that was just would

18     be our position right now.  We don't have a full translation available to

19     obviously appropriately appreciate it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, any further comments on it?

21             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours the footnote number 1 is a book

22     by a BiH military commander that he is citing to and I believe that the

23     figures come from the book.  I have not had a chance to locate the book

24     to check, but it would appear that the witness is attempting to show

25     where some of this information comes from.  But it --

Page 41863

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  -- may not be all-inclusive.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I think he said he had military documents or a

 4     military document available which he could provide and it -- I do

 5     understand from you now that there is a footnote that may refer to any

 6     document but what was provided is not a military document or military

 7     documents in itself.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.  It's a reference to.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And I think, Witness, that's what you said you had

10     available, a military document or military documents, and we just

11     established at this moment that the parties consider what you provided is

12     not a military document or military documents you referred to.

13             I leave to that at this moment.

14             We'll take a break, and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to briefly deal with

20     the testimony anticipated of Mr. Stankovic on, if I could say so, Dunjic

21     evidence.

22             The Chamber would like to have it very clear now what -- where we

23     are and put that on the record.  Where we are is what apparently the

24     parties have -- an approach the parties have agreed upon in relation to

25     Mr. Stankovic's role with regard to the Dunjic expert report.

Page 41864

 1             We do understand that the Dunjic expert report will not and is

 2     not tendered pursuant to Rule 94 bis (C).  Instead, Mr. Stankovic will

 3     annotate the Dunjic report.  The thus annotated Dunjic report will then

 4     be tendered as Mr. Stankovic's expert report.

 5             As Mr. Stankovic has not yet been recognised as an expert by the

 6     Chamber, the Chamber expects the Defence to follow the procedure of

 7     Rule 94 bis, including filing the annotated report, and the Chamber

 8     instructs the Defence to include updates on Mr. Stankovic's progress in

 9     relation to the Dunjic report in its weekly updates.

10             Has this Chamber well understood what approach the parties agreed

11     upon?

12             And meanwhile, I think the witness can be escorted in the

13     courtroom.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, and I -- that does reflect what

15     the Prosecution would like to agree on.  Because of the busyness of

16     everyone that's what we were talking, but I do think we need to hear from

17     the Defence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

19             MR. IVETIC:  I think I could safely say that is what we will do.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then that's agreed.  That's hereby then

21     clarified.  And we'll wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kovac, we'll continue.  I think it would save

24     time if you more directly respond to questions put to you by

25     Mr. McCloskey, rather than to first deal with a few other matters which

Page 41865

 1     are not part of the question.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   Staying in your report, 65 ter 1D5358, let's go to page 208 in

 5     the English and 206 in the B/C/S.  I'd like to look at paragraph 5.83 and

 6     5.84.  This is where you talk about Directive 7 and Directive 7.1, and

 7     I'll read this out briefly.

 8             "It is not disputed that Directive 7 bears the signature of

 9     Dr. Karadzic, just as it is not disputed that General Radivoje Miletic

10     signed it as the person who was involved in its drafting.  It is also

11     beyond dispute that the cover letter with which the directive was

12     distributed to the corps commands was signed by ... chief of the VRS GS,

13     General Manojlo Milovanovic."

14             Paragraph 5.84:

15             "The RS president signed documents proposed to him by the VRS GS

16     with confidence.  A directive is not an executive document, but a whole

17     series of executive documents is prepared on its basis in the form of

18     commands, orders, plans and similar which offered possibilities for

19     correcting what was not formulated well in the directive.  Some ten days

20     after it was issued, General Staff directive number 7/1 was drawn up.

21     Its number indicates that it is a follow-up document to Directive 7.  It

22     is important to note that Directive 7/1 altered a few elements contained

23     in Directive 7, primarily by omitting the incriminatory sentence on the

24     tasks of the Drina Corps.  That means that there was no intention to put

25     civilians in jeopardy and that this formulation can be attributed to the

Page 41866

 1     poor judgement of an operations officer from the VRS GS who wrote the

 2     document and that this mistake was later noticed and removed from the new

 3     combat document, VRS GS Directive number 7.1."

 4             Now to discuss this briefly, let's go to Directive 7 itself which

 5     begins at P01469, page 1.

 6             And, General, we should see the cover page that you referred to

 7     in your report that went out by -- from -- under General Milovanovic.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, it should be page 1 of 1469.  There we go.

 9     Thank you.  In the English.

10        Q.   And, General, that's what you were referring to in your report,

11     briefly?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And we'll try to remember that this is dated 17 March 1995 when

14     the directive is sent out to the corps.

15             Let's go to page 2.  And, General, is it your understanding this

16     is the first page of the actual Directive 7?

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And it's page 3 in the B/C/S.  Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   And for our memory, we'll note that that is dated March 8th.  And

21     I think we can all agree that this was at the last page signed by

22     President Karadzic with a note drafted Colonel Radivoje Miletic, perhaps,

23     and save some time.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now if we could go to the body of the document.

25     Yes, all right.  Thank you for pulling that up.

Page 41867

 1        Q.   That's what you also said in your report, that it was -- I think

 2     you said signed by, but we can see here that it's just typed, that it was

 3     drafted by Radivoje Miletic; correct?

 4        A.   Yes, the typewritten name.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now let's go to the Drina Corps section, which

 7     should be page 17 in both languages, I believe.  I'm sorry, it's page 10

 8     in the English, 17 in the B/C/S.

 9        Q.   And just to remind us, what you had said in your report is you

10     talk about that 7.1 omitted what you call the "incriminatory sentence."

11     So can we agree that the incriminatory sentence you referred to is -- is

12     at the bottom of the page in English and is the -- near the end of the

13     first paragraph in the Serbian and --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First paragraph of the reference to Drina Corps.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, yes.  Thank you.

16        Q.   And I believe you meant by the incriminatory sentence:

17             "By well-planned and well-thought out combat operations create an

18     unbearable situation of total insecurity with no hope of further survival

19     or life for the inhabitants of Srebrenica and Zepa."

20             Is that what you meant when you said that, that that was the

21     incriminatory sentence?

22        A.   Yes, I meant that sentence, which is not in keeping with the

23     logic of the directive or its intention.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered the question by saying that that was

25     the sentence you referred to.

Page 41868

 1             Please.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   Now, if we go back to your report at page 206 in the B/C/S and

 4     page 209, you say that that sentence, and I quote, "can be attributed to

 5     the poor judgement of an operations officer from the VRS GS who wrote the

 6     document, and that this mistake," you call it, "that this mistake was

 7     later noticed and removed from the new combat document."

 8             So who, in your view, is this operations officer who can be

 9     blamed for this statement?

10        A.   I don't know by name, but I believe it was very poor judgement

11     and very badly formulated.

12        Q.   You know that General Miletic was the chief of operations and

13     training in the Main Staff.  So you're not referring to him as the

14     operations officer?

15        A.   He is certainly headed the drafting of the directive, but he was

16     not the only one who participated in its drafting.  He had an operative

17     officer next to him and people who actually did the writing.

18        Q.   So you're saying that it's not Miletic that made this mistake.

19     It was one of his staff, perhaps a lieutenant or a major?

20        A.   I don't think so, and officers of such ranks are not with the

21     staff organ.  They would have to be more senior officers, both by rank

22     and by age.  But it's not up to the chief of the operative organ to be --

23     in fact, he is responsible.  He bears responsibility for this

24     formulation.

25        Q.   Okay.  You go on to say here that it was a mistake and it was

Page 41869

 1     later noticed and removed.  So are you telling us that you believe that

 2     this document that went out, that was signed by Karadzic on the 8th and

 3     it went out a few days later, was missed, this mistake was missed by

 4     Miletic, it was missed by President Karadzic, it was missed by General

 5     Mladic and everybody else?

 6        A.   When it was noticed - that was my logic - it was removed in the

 7     following directive.  But the document had gone out already.  That's what

 8     I assume.

 9        Q.   And for the record, Directive 7/1 - which we don't need go to -

10     P1470, was -- went out on 31 March 1995.

11             So your analysis takes this, not even to an officer, perhaps to a

12     sergeant or a corporal that wrote this?

13        A.   No, we didn't understand each other.  I said the person

14     responsible is the one who signs the document, and in this specific case,

15     that was Colonel - later General - Miletic.

16        Q.   So in your report, when you refer to an operations officer, you

17     meant Miletic?

18        A.   He bears essential responsibility.  But I mentioned in my report

19     that this was imprudently done by an operations officer who phrased these

20     items in the directive.  However, it was Miletic's duty to review and

21     revise the whole text and approve it before giving it to the supreme

22     commander to sign.  That's why I'm saying he is responsible.

23        Q.   And we understand that, General.  My point is:  Are you saying

24     that it was Miletic that phrased this or one of his subordinate officers,

25     because you don't say it in your statement.  You say:

Page 41870

 1             "It can" -- and I quote, "can be contributed to the poor

 2     judgement of an operations from the VRS GS."

 3             So the phraseology was not done by Miletic but someone else;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   I just said a moment ago that he didn't physically write it --

 6        Q.   Please try to answer -- please try to answer my question.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I'll object, Your Honours.  He's answered the

 8     question twice.  Counsel is refusing to listen to the answer.  I'll give

 9     you the citations in a moment.

10             In --

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think we can go on without this tirade.

12             MR. IVETIC:  No, if the question is being posed, if the witness

13     is being told he's not answering --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

15             MR. IVETIC:  -- I have a right to --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

17             MR. IVETIC:  -- for the record show that is he wrong.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you first not continue talking when I

19     try to resolve a matter.

20             If there's an objection, Mr. McCloskey, we'll first listen to

21     that, and if you then later decide to go on and not put the question to

22     the witness, that's fine.  But the Defence has an opportunity to -- yes.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Line -- page 28, line 17, the witness explicitly

24     stated he did not know the name of the officer who drafted it.  When he

25     was asked by Mr. McCloskey whether it was a lieutenant or major, page 29,

Page 41871

 1     lines 2 through 6, the witness said it couldn't be a lieutenant or major

 2     because the officer would have to be of a more senior rank and a more

 3     seniority position.  So he -- the witness has answered twice the question

 4     that Prosecution counsel is accusing him of not answering and that is

 5     inappropriate.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, as a matter of fact, I think, first, if I look

 7     at the two spots you said, the first time he said he didn't know who it

 8     was.  The second was that he didn't know rank.  And now the question was:

 9     But was it somebody else than Mr. Miletic.  That could be -- have been

10     implied in his answers but I think that's what Mr. McCloskey would like

11     to have clear.  But since he said he would move on anyhow, I think

12     that ... I think that there's certainly some merit in your objection,

13     although literally you can't say that the same question was answered

14     already.

15             But before we move on, I have one other question for the witness

16     where he apparently, at least in my view, Mr. Ivetic, didn't fully answer

17     the question, which was -- you were asked whether when Directive 7 was

18     issued, whether Karadzic and Mladic and - who else was it? - had missed

19     that mistake.  You didn't directly answer that question.  You said when

20     it was later noticed, the text was changed.  But do I understand that

21     implicit in this answer is that in the first round, before the mistake

22     was noticed, as you said, that they missed the mistake?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said twice that

24     Miletic was responsible because he signed the document before it was sent

25     out --

Page 41872

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have heard that.  But the question was

 2     whether Miletic, Karadzic, and Mladic would have missed that mistake.  Is

 3     that implicit in the answers you did give, that they have missed it?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not all these persons were involved

 5     in this process that you mentioned in your question.  The chief of

 6     operations forwards it to the supreme commander for signature.  That's

 7     why I believe he is responsible, regardless of who put this language in

 8     the document.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Did Miletic miss it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Did Karadzic miss it?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that in that position, a

13     person doesn't ever have time enough to read the details of the document,

14     he just signs.  He missed it, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Did Mr. Mladic miss it?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether he had any

17     contact with this directive at all.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's -- that's -- now we have an answer to

19     the question.

20             If you are referring to later noticing the mistake, you relied on

21     your logic of the matters.  Is there anything else apart from your logic

22     which makes you believe that it was a mistake which was then noticed and

23     was then corrected?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't see anything else.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, fine --

Page 41873

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Except --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that's an answer to my question.  It's your

 3     logic.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   And we saw that Milovanovic sent copies of this out.  Did he miss

 7     it, the language, General Milovanovic, from your logic or knowledge of

 8     facts?

 9        A.   General Milovanovic only forwarded the directive.  He wasn't

10     responsible in that process to read the document before signing either,

11     and maybe he noticed it after the document was signed.

12        Q.   So does your logic tell you that then-Colonel Miletic sent this

13     document directly to President Karadzic without Mladic or Milovanovic

14     seeing it?

15        A.   Maybe they saw some elements, or maybe they were familiar with

16     elements of the directive, but they didn't have to read it in detail

17     carefully.  I'm talking about their job description, their competencies.

18        Q.   All right.  Let's go to a document.  Perhaps that may shed some

19     light on the intentions of those that wrote this.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to P1505.

21        Q.   And, sir, this is a document that's in evidence here, it's dated

22     4th of July.  You will have a chance to see it.  It's from the commander

23     of the Bratunac Brigade at the time, Lieutenant-Colonel Ognjenovic.  And

24     he said some things in this document that, from the Prosecution's

25     perspective, are remarkable similar to what you call the incriminatory

Page 41874

 1     sentence and so I want to ask you about this.  And if you see, we have

 2     the first page there from Ognjenovic's document.  It starts off with:

 3             "During his recent visit to our corps command, the commander of

 4     the VRS GS indicated that he would soon visit some of the corps units,

 5     including the Bratunac Brigade."

 6             Okay.  Then Ognjenovic continue -- says to his -- to this

 7     particular unit, the 3rd Infantry Battalion, several things.  And we can

 8     tell from this first page that Blagojevic was aware that Mladic had made

 9     some comments.  So I want to go to page 3 in the English and page 2 in

10     the B/C/S --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, you said Blagojevic.  Was that

12     what you wanted to say?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.  Thank you very much.  As we know, Blagojevic

14     became commander of the Bratunac Brigade in May of 1995, and Ognjenovic

15     was commander of the Bratunac Brigade in 1994.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You wanted to say Ognjenovic.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I should have said Ognjenovic.  Thank you

18     for the correction.

19        Q.   Okay.  So let's look at -- it's under paragraph -- should

20     be noted as -- well, it's right above what is noted as number 3 in both

21     languages, and it starts, the part that I'm interested in:

22             "We must attain our final goal, an entirely Serbian Podrinje.

23     The enclaves of Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde must be defeated militarily.

24             "We must continue to arm, train, discipline, and prepare the RS

25     army for the execution of this crucial task - the expulsion of Muslims

Page 41875

 1     from the Srebrenica enclave.

 2             "There will be no retreat when it comes to the Srebrenica

 3     enclave, we must advance.  The enemy's life has to be made unbearable and

 4     their temporary stay in the enclave impossible so that they leave the

 5     enclave en masse as soon as possible, realising that they cannot survive

 6     there."

 7             Now what I'm particularly interested in are not the references to

 8     the enemy and defeating the enemy and driving the enemy out.  What I'm

 9     asking about is, isn't this targeting this civilian population when he

10     says that their stay in the enclave, make it impossible so that they

11     leave the enclave en masse.  Doesn't "en masse" include the army and the

12     civilians?

13        A.   Well, this is a negative link to the sentence from the directive.

14     That is my interpretation.

15        Q.   So you think this is incriminatory also.

16        A.   What do you mean "incriminatory"?  I don't quite understand.

17        Q.   Well, like you --

18        A.   Yes?

19        Q.   Like you said about the reference from Directive 7.  If this

20     refers to the civilians and saying the civilians and the army can't

21     survive there, that's very similar to the incriminating comment that you

22     referred to in Directive 7, is it not?

23        A.   Well, the formulation is similar.  That's what I think.

24        Q.   Okay.  And we can see the term in English "survive" is similar to

25     both of them.  So given that similarity that you've acknowledged in

Page 41876

 1     Ognjenovic's report to his troops and the fact that he had made reference

 2     to a recent visit to Mladic to the corps command, do you think that

 3     Ognjenovic would have developed this incriminatory language himself, or

 4     is he getting that from his superior command?

 5        A.   Well, I don't see that there is any reference to a quotation

 6     here.  I don't know how he understood the conversation.  I see that this

 7     is how he transferred it and signed it.

 8        Q.   So you do think he has transferred information from Mladic to

 9     this order?

10        A.   No.  He formulated that and on the basis of what, that I cannot

11     say.  He is the signatory of this document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you earlier relied very much on your logic.

13     Does your logic assist you here in any way?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It does, as I've just said.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean that he is the signatory and that's --

16     that's ...

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every signatory of a combat

18     document is responsible for the document and for what is expressed there,

19     in terms of principles and in terms of powers.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And your logic doesn't say anything about whether or

21     not he would have done this without his superiors knowing of developing

22     these -- this language or correcting him if it was wrong?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is the signatory of the document

24     and it's a public document, and I don't know --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the rest

Page 41877

 1     of the sentence.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But that the formulation is bad,

 3     yes, it is.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps first you finish -- there was one portion of

 7     your answer which was missed by the interpreters.  You said, Witness:

 8             "He is the signatory of the document and it's a public document,

 9     and I don't know ..."

10             Could you please repeat what you then said.  So not extend the

11     answer but just repeat what you then said.  You do not know.  And

12     then ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether anyone drew

14     his attention to this because the document was accessible to superior

15     commands as well.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have one follow-up question.

18             Isn't it true that a commander of a subordinate unit has to give

19     orders to his unit in accordance with orders received from above, from a

20     higher level?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but not orders that are

22     contrary to the law and regulations.  Such orders are not carried out and

23     are not built into combat documents.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That is -- would be the principle.  I'm asking

25     you more about factual proceedings.  The framework is for orders of a

Page 41878

 1     subordinate unit is given by the upper level.  That's correct; yes?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.  But it

 3     doesn't --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But it doesn't ... but it doesn't ... what do you

 5     want to say?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant that a document issuing an

 7     order cannot be a copy of all the things contained in the order of the

 8     superior command.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you find any document which responded to what

11     you said was illegal approach or illegal views on what should be done or

12     any order which was given as a consequence?  Did you ever find a

13     subordinate saying, Hey, this is illegal, I'm not going to follow your

14     orders, or please withdraw your order?  Did you find anything of the

15     kind?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I did, specifically the

17     example of the commander of the Zvornik Brigade in his interim report and

18     position regarding prisoners or, rather, prisoners of war, in the area of

19     responsibility of his brigade.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  But this document is not about prisoners of war.

21     The portion your attention was drawn to was about making life unbearable

22     for the population.  So do you have any example of opposition or a

23     response of the kind as I referred to against this language?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  And I was guided by -- okay.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you've answered my question.

Page 41879

 1             Please proceed.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have another follow-up question.

 3             Sir, in response to a question by Judge Fluegge, you answered at

 4     page 38, line 5:

 5             "I meant that a document issuing an order cannot be a copy of all

 6     the things typed in the order of the superior command."

 7             My follow-up question is:  Could a document issued by a

 8     subordinate commander expand on the order from a superior commander?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, expand in which sense?

10     In terms of content, in terms of tasks?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In terms of content, in terms of tasks, can it say

12     more in its -- in the document than what was said by the superior

13     command?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a war, as it was waged, yes,

15     especially in the descriptive part of the document.

16             As for the task or objective of the activity involved, has to be

17     expressed exactly as it was expressed in the document to the superior

18     command.  As for other elements of the document, they are derived from

19     the document to the superior command.  I mean the part that has to do

20     with combat activities, tasks, issued to subordinate units and also

21     securing units in terms of the combat operations involved.

22             The first part that we are speaking of now is general,

23     descriptive, and each and every command formulates it on the basis of its

24     own view.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And as to the objective, do you say it cannot --

Page 41880

 1     can it expand the objective of the task?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The task pertains to the brigade in

 3     this specific case and it cannot be expanded on.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm asking about the objective of the task, what

 5     the task is intended to achieve.  Can the subordinate expand on that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The objective and the task are

 7     explicitly taken over.  As for this part up here, that is not in the

 8     domain of the objective and task of a specific brigade.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, looking at the document on the screen, I

10     read that he says:

11             "We must continue to arm, train, discipline, and prepare the RS

12     army for the execution of this crucial task."

13             And then he tells us what that is:

14             "The expulsion of Muslims from the Srebrenica enclave."

15             So that's what the task is supposed to achieve, isn't it?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask to take a look

17     at the time of the document, when it was issued.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You -- you can --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In any context it --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- look at the time but just answer my question

21     first.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wrote down the time and the year

23     and that's why I'm saying this.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I know that but that's --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document --

Page 41881

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- not part of my question.  I'm sure can you

 2     answer my question without referring to time.  You can look at the time

 3     later.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  But, Your Honours, if a witness is asking to see

 5     something to answer a question, I believe it is appropriate that he be

 6     allowed to see it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness is asked a question on the basis of what

 8     is shown to him at this moment.  He can answer that question and if he

 9     wants to add anything after that about time-frame and the relevance of

10     such time-frame, he'll have an opportunity to do so.

11             MR. IVETIC:  But he is being shown half of the paragraph.  He is

12     asking to see the rest of the document.  I really think it's a witness's

13     prerogative to ask to see an entirety of a document before answering a

14     question about one small part of a document.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, first of all, I think he has seen it before.

16     But he is now invited to interpret the language of this document as it

17     stands.  Relevance of that language, time-frame, et cetera, is certainly

18     a matter which may be raised after that, but this question can be

19     answered without further looking to the time-frame.  And, as a matter of

20     fact, the witness has shown again and again that matters which are not

21     asked, that he uses those not -- to evade answering a question.

22     Therefore, he should focus now on answering that question.

23             And perhaps Judge Moloto briefly repeats it because there has

24     been quite an exchange of words after the question.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I said:

Page 41882

 1             "Well" - and I quote myself, this is at page 40, line 9 -

 2     "looking at the document on the screen, I read that it says:

 3             "'We must continue to arm, train, discipline, and prepare the

 4     RS army for the execution of this crucial task.'"

 5             "And then he tells us what this is:  'The expulsion of Muslims

 6     from the Srebrenica enclave.'

 7             "So that's what the task is supposed to achieve, isn't it?"

 8             That's my question.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the position was taken

10     out of context and I don't think that that is its meaning.  And I don't

11     think there was a military intention to expel Muslims from Srebrenica

12     either in that period or at all.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're not answering my question.  You are now

14     interpreting this.  My question was originally:  Can a subordinate expand

15     on an order given by a superior?  You said:  No, not as far as objectives

16     are concerned.  But to the extent that he gives directives as to what

17     should be done on the ground, he may.

18             Now I'm saying here, this is an objective, objective is to expel

19     the Muslims from the Srebrenica enclave.  Is that something that a

20     subordinate could add when -- even though it was not included in the

21     command of the superior?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not a task and it's not an

23     objective.  In this document.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This is the final result that must come:  The

25     expulsion of the Muslims from the Srebrenica enclave.  Once that has been

Page 41883

 1     achieved, what else is there for the army to do?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the time of the document,

 3     that was not the objective or the task of this brigade.  And it couldn't

 4     have carried out such a task.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But it is contained in this order, this objective.

 6     And it is at that time when -- of this order.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not saying ... Your Honour, I'm

 8     not saying that the order is a good one.  It's not good.  It's not

 9     precise.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm also --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I'm saying --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm also not talking about its goodness or

13     badness.  I'm just talking about how orders are carried out because you

14     explained that you can exclude some things that are coming from a

15     superior order, and I'm asking the opposite:  Can you expand on orders

16     from the -- from superior orders?

17             Whether the order is good or not good is not the point I am

18     making.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this first part, it is

20     formulated in its own way.  It is not simply copied.  And it is not

21     expressed verbatim as it was presented in the document to the superior

22     command.  Rather, they are operationalized and expressed in terms of the

23     needs of one's own unit, the specific area of responsibility of the

24     brigade, and its surrounding area.  So this part of paragraph 2 does not

25     have to be copied from the document of the superior command and doesn't

Page 41884

 1     have to quote that document.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Obviously you are not answering my

 3     question.  Thank you so much.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if I may, just for purposes of the

 6     record.  At temporary transcript page 42, lines 10 through 12,

 7     Judge Moloto said:  Your interpreting the document, you're not answering

 8     the question.  When in fact just prior to that, Judge Orie at

 9     transcript page 41, line 13 through 14, specifically instructed the

10     witness to interpret the document.  So I want that on the record that the

11     witness was following Judge Orie's instruction.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It's hereby on the record whether it's -- what you

13     said, Mr. Ivetic.  It's on the record, you've said it, it's transcribed,

14     it's there.

15             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me also place on the record that that may be

17     so.  My question didn't ask for any interpretation.  It asked for

18     something else.

19             MR. IVETIC:  I appreciate that, and that's why I did not have any

20     problems with your questions.  I just wanted it on the record that that

21     was said.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   Okay, General, I want to take us back where you and I had left

25     off on this Ognjenovic document.

Page 41885

 1             You had agreed with me or had said that part of this document

 2     was, similar to the other one, problematic.  And I refer to the section

 3     where it talks about "en masse" and "survive" there.  And I want to

 4     explore that a little more because, have you had a chance to review

 5     General Zivanovic, the then-commander of the Drina Corps, his handwritten

 6     notes on meetings that occurred at the corps on July 1st, 1994?

 7        A.   I did not have the opportunity to see these handwritten notes.

 8        Q.   All right.  Well, they haven't been in -- used in open court or

 9     by any -- in -- in this court yet by any witness, as far as I know.  So

10     let's take a look.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  P5273, page 1.

12        Q.   And while we're waiting for that to come up, I'm just showing you

13     a little red book, sir, with "JNA" on it.  This is, we believe, to be the

14     original copy that we -- was obtained from General Zivanovic.  And it

15     says "JNA" on it.  Is that a typical officer's notebook, in your

16     experience?

17        A.   I find it to be familiar based on the visual perception of it.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And what we have -- because the translation is

20     the actual handwritten document which can be difficult to read, so what

21     we've done is we have -- if we could have in the B/C/S side only

22     65 ter 19193B, where we have typed up in Cyrillic precisely what we -- as

23     best as we could, what we see in the handwritten.

24        Q.   I think -- it should be much easier for you to look at.  And if

25     we could also hand to you the first few pages of that typed version so

Page 41886

 1     you can get a feel for it as we begin here with 1 July 1994.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I don't see that the typed Cyrillic

 3     version is part of the exhibit in e-court.  I only see the handwritten

 4     version.  So I'm a little bit confused as to now we have a document

 5     prepared by somebody else, which is not the original, being used instead

 6     of the original that is not part of an exhibit.  I could be mistaken

 7     about this but I only see two documents in e-court.  One is an English

 8     translation, the other one I opened up is handwritten.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think there are three versions in e-court.  One is

10     the handwritten one, but let's check it, whether this is true also for

11     this portion.  Again we were talking about P...

12             MR. IVETIC:  5273.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P5273.  I'll check immediately.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we sent this to the Defence in an e-mail on

15     Monday night to try to avoid any problem.  I know you've been busy.

16             MR. IVETIC:  I have, but whether I got it in e-mail it's still

17     not part of the exhibit as I see it on the screen.  That's my concern.  I

18     don't know where it comes from.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey referred to a 65 ter number and we

20     should try to find it in e-court.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  19193B.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I see this handwritten version in --

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's up there.  That's our typed version now.  As

24     you may remember seeing the handwritten version originally, we now have

25     the typewritten version.

Page 41887

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's in e-court --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  As a matter of fact, the handwritten version, I

 4     found that in e-court so --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I don't have a problem with the handwritten.  I'm

 6     saying that the exhibit that's been tendered, P5273, has a handwritten

 7     and has a typed version.  It does not have a typed B/C/S version.

 8     Therefore, if we're using -- mixing and matches parts of two different

 9     documents, I think either something needs to be added to P5273 or -- or

10     some more information.  That's the problem I have.  It might be in

11     e-court under another number, but it doesn't address the fact that this

12     exhibit that is being referred to now is being compared to another

13     document without both languages of the exhibit as it's been admitted.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll check that.  Of course, the importance of it

15     is, Mr. Ivetic, whether the typewritten version, which I remember we have

16     used in some -- at some times, whether the typewritten version fully

17     corresponds with the handwritten version, whether there's any dispute

18     about the accuracy of the transcription into a typewritten version.  If

19     there's anything of the kind you are concerned about, please tell us

20     immediately.  If there's not for the time being, it should be uploaded

21     and should be made part of the exhibit as we look at --

22             MR. IVETIC:  My concern is we don't have anyone in e-court --

23     pardon me, in the courtroom today who can do that analysis since

24     Mr. Stojanovic can't -- actually, Mr. Stojanovic can check it.  I

25     apologise.  We will have him check to see the correlation between the

Page 41888

 1     typed and the handwritten.  I --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's appreciated.  Please proceed.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, that's, of course, why we sent it on Monday.

 4     And this is a convenience for the witness so he doesn't have to try to

 5     sort out the handwritten.

 6        Q.   Okay.  General, now, we're looking at General Zivanovic's

 7     handwritten notes which are dated 1 July, which we -- it's the

 8     Prosecution's position is the 1 July meeting when Mladic was at the corps

 9     that was referenced in Ognjenovic's previous document.  And I can tell

10     you, having leafed through it a bit, we can see the people noted in his

11     notes as present at that meeting were General Mladic, Pandurevic, Andric,

12     Krstic, Ognjenovic, Kusic, Furtula, Tolimir, Gvero.  So those are members

13     of -- some of those are brigade commanders of the Drina Corps and some of

14     those were members of the Main Staff.  I think we know the players at

15     this point.

16             So let's now explore a bit.  Let's see if General Zivanovic's

17     notes reflect anything like what we saw in Ognjenovic's document of a few

18     days later.  And remembering the issue is, is this -- the survive issue,

19     is something that came out of the hand of an operations officer or is

20     this something that perhaps the Main Staff has developed?  So let's go

21     to --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, I'm looking at the clock.  Perhaps it

23     would be good if the witness has an opportunity to read through these

24     documents during the break and that you then ask questions that he is

25     more familiar with the text.

Page 41889

 1             Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.  You're invited to

 2     just glance through that document that has been given to you.  You may

 3     follow the usher.

 4             Mr. McCloskey, as far as timing is concerned, and I'm not only

 5     addressing you but also addressing Mr. Ivetic.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  It's -- we resume at quarter past 12.00.  What is

 8     then to be expected.  Will be able to conclude the evidence of this

 9     witness today?

10             Mr. Ivetic is nodding yes but it takes two to tango.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I very much hope so.  Let me see how much time I

12     have taken and what else I have --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You have approximately half an hour left.  Perhaps

14     in view of the questions by the Chamber a little bit more, but ...

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  A little bit over half an hour.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I will make every effort to finish that up and --

18     unless you really want me to continue onward.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Would that leave you sufficient time for

20     re-examination, Mr. Ivetic?

21             MR. IVETIC:  It would, Your Honours.  Right now, I have 40 to

22     45 minutes total and I can try to --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, that's not -- I mean, we have still two

24     breaks to go and have two hours and 15 minutes left so -- but I take it

25     that the parties will stick to their assessments.

Page 41890

 1             We'll take a break and resume at -- well, now, 20 minutes past

 2     midday.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to urge the witness again to try to

 9     give direct answers to the questions.  That's most important.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   Okay.  General, let's go through these notes and see what we can

13     make of them.

14             We first see 1 July 1994 and then Vlasenica.  Vlasenica is the

15     location of the headquarters of the Drina Corps; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   All right.  Then we see General Mladic is underlined and there's

18     several bullet points.  Take a look at those.  But then we need to go to

19     the next page in the B/C/S typed because it's my understanding that this

20     notation that General Zivanovic makes:

21             "We are on our way to clear the enclaves."

22             Do you see that on the note, General?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   All right.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next page in the English, and it

Page 41891

 1     should be page 3 in the typed B/C/S.

 2        Q.   We see Colonel Andric there, and under --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We are not on the right page in B/C/S yet.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Should be page 3.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There we are.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's Cyrillic, okay.  I didn't know that.  Thank

 7     you.

 8        Q.   So Colonel Andric, we can agree he was the brigade commander for

 9     the Sekovici Brigade?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And we see Mladic's name written.  And then it says:

12             "You have enough troops."

13             Can logic tell us that General Mladic must have told Colonel

14     Andric that he has enough troops?

15        A.   In what sense and what for?  It could be a general statement or

16     it could refer to a specific mission.  We can't see from this.

17        Q.   I agree.  But I just want -- we can agree that General Mladic

18     said:

19             "You have enough troops."

20             But we don't know what he means besides that?

21        A.   We don't even know whether he said it.  In fact, I don't know

22     whether he said it or not.

23             I have a general problem with a handbook, with a copy book as a

24     document.

25        Q.   Okay.  Let's continue to go through it, despite your problems,

Page 41892

 1     and if there's anything I can help with, let me know.

 2             Let's now go to page 4 in the B/C/S, staying on the page we are,

 3     we see Kosoric.  Wasn't there a Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric in the

 4     Drina Corps intelligence department?

 5        A.   I'm not sure.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And we see a reference to Krstic.  At that time in 1994,

 7     Radislav Krstic would have been the Chief of Staff deputy commander of

 8     the Drina Corps?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   If we go to page 3 in the English, should be page 5 in the typed

11     B/C/S, we go down and again we see Mladic's name and some bullet points.

12     And it says here:

13             "The enclave is not so that they survive but so that they

14     disappear."

15             MR. IVETIC:  And that does not correlate to the B/C/S that's on

16     the screen.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then, could we move --

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Should be B/C/S page 5.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  What we have is -- this is not, I think -- I'll

20     just ... this is not the right page.  This is also not the right --

21             MR. IVETIC:  The text was there.  It's just different from --

22     than it is in the English.  That the --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could we go back to the page where we have

24     above each other, I think, where Ognjenovic is supposed to start --

25             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah.  And so here in the B/C/S, it says [B/C/S

Page 41893

 1     spoken].  Enclaves are not to survive but to disappear.

 2             So the additional, "that they," is not in the B/C/S that is in

 3     the English.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That is your -- whether that's an accurate

 5     translation or not, that is how -- that is for CLSS to decide.  But we

 6     are now, I think, on the right page.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  And this was a recently revised CLSS

 9     translation and I would -- if we have these issues, we can discuss it

10     outside the presence of the witness, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If there's any matter remaining, then I take

12     it that it will be either agreed by the parties upon or it will be sent

13     to CLSS to specifically verify this portion.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   The term "survive" is similar to the terms used in Directive 7

17     and in Ognjenovic's document we saw from 1994, isn't it?

18        A.   The term itself, yes, but the meaning is not the same.

19        Q.   Yes, well, we see the meaning as:

20             "The enclave is not so they survive but so that they disappear,"

21     and I think we'll leave it at that.

22             As we go down farther, we can see under Mladic - this is --

23     should be B/C/S the next page, page 6 on my note - "reduce the enclave."

24             All right.  Now let's -- we've seen Zivanovic's note.  Let's take

25     a look at Zivanovic's other notebook for 1995 which we also got from him.

Page 41894

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, before we do so.  The Chamber would like to

 2     have that one sentence over the next break be reviewed by CLSS if that's

 3     possible - it's just one sentence - to see whether there's really some

 4     different meaning.  Mr. Ivetic raised the matter.  Whether it's just

 5     language or whether it's more, we do not know, and we'd like to have that

 6     one sentence be verified.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  We were concerned and did

 8     that a few days ago, and my only request would be if we try to get the

 9     same -- not that there's many people left at CLSS, but if we have the

10     same group, then we will be on better grounds.  Because you know

11     languages better than I are not perfect.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But was it specifically focusing on that

13     sentence?

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And that sentence was confirmed as having received

16     an accurate translation by CLSS.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  This is CLSS focusing on this.  We asked

18     them to, and this is what they gave us and that was provided the Defence.

19     This has all been done days before, though I know Mr. Ivetic has been

20     busy.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Under those circumstances, Mr. Ivetic, I think

22     it would not have been appropriate to say what it says in English and

23     whether it's right or wrong.  If you are aware of this verification --

24             MR. IVETIC:  I am not.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- then you should have raised -- you were not

Page 41895

 1     informed about it?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I, as I stand here, am not aware of that.  And I'm

 3     reading what is the official text --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  -- and this new document that was given to me on

 6     Monday --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's --

 8             MR. IVETIC:  -- so when it could have been confirmed, I don't

 9     know.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand now and if there's any doubt

11     about that, of course, that should be sorted out, but that specifically

12     this line has been verified by CLSS very recently, focusing especially on

13     this line.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And then we leave it to that.  And if there's any

16     doubt, then the party which wishes to raise that has an opportunity to do

17     so.

18             But, meanwhile, we'll continue.  And I withdraw the Chamber's

19     request of having this one line being confirmed during the next break.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And so it's clear, the typed Cyrillic is not a

22     translation of anything.  It's -- it's a transcript of the handwritten.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It's clear that that's what it is.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  All right.

25             So we're back to P05274, page 25 in the English, and if we, doing

Page 41896

 1     the same thing we did before, go to 65 ter 19192B, page 1.

 2             The P number was P5274.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is not the corresponding page.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The 65 ter was 19192B.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is a 54 --

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, I -- I'm sorry, I must have the wrong

 8     number.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  What we have now is 54 pages.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah.  Let's just go to the handwritten, then,

11     that goes along with the English.

12             MR. IVETIC:  I think that's it.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Oh.  Okay.  Thank you.  Don't know where I went

14     wrong there, but thank you for getting it up.

15        Q.   Okay.  General, we can see that -- well, it's off my page, but if

16     we can make the English bigger, there should be a date - there we go - of

17     8 March 1995.  We'll make yours bigger as well, so hopefully you can see

18     that.  It should be there.  Yeah.  And as we'll recall that was the date

19     on the doc -- on Directive 7 that Karadzic signed, and we see it says

20     "GS - KM."  What does that mean?

21        A.   Command post of the Main Staff.

22        Q.   All right.  And it conveniently lists who is present.  We see

23     Mladic and General Tomic.  General Tomic was the finance and planning

24     chief, was he not?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 41897

 1        Q.   And Colonel Skrbic was in personnel?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You've told us about Colonel Beara, and we know about

 4     Colonel Ognjenovic.  And we have discussions referred here.

 5             So let's go to the next page in English, should be the next page

 6     in the Serbian as well.  And we see that someone is -- says that they are

 7     ashamed because they're not a colonel.  And that continues.  We get into

 8     a bit about UNPROFOR, enemy aircraft towards Srebrenica, bring down.

 9     That's -- Mladic's name is written next to that.  Then it says:  In

10     Srebrenica - details control.  Then Mladic's name is written.

11             So let's go to the next page, and what we see here is a note that

12     Zivanovic has written down:

13             "Make life impossible."

14             That is similar to what we see in the language that you've spoken

15     of in Directive 7 and in Ognjenovic's report of 1994, is it not?

16        A.   I just said a moment ago, I reviewed now and I reviewed during

17     the break these words, and I cannot say based on words in a copy book

18     what somebody had in mind and what it means.

19        Q.   Of course, that wasn't the question.  Would you agree with me

20     that it's similar to the -- what was -- you called it the incriminatory

21     language of Directive 7 and the language in Ognjenovic's order of 1994?

22        A.   I don't know what it relates to.  I don't see it from here.  Of

23     course, it's incriminating.  "Make life impossible."  But what does this

24     simple sentence relate to?  To whom?  I can't see it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We're not there yet.  We're just looking at whether

Page 41898

 1     this is a corresponding textual element to the documents we have been

 2     shown before.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I think we'll leave those final questions to

 5     the Chamber on that particular issue.

 6        Q.   But with one question.  You have said that it's an operations

 7     officer of some sort, we don't really know if it's an officer or an

 8     enlisted man, that made this mistake and it got overlooked by several

 9     people.  Now that you have seen this same similar topic of survival and

10     making life impossible discussed at the highest levels of the VRS, does

11     your logic tell you that perhaps you're wrong about that this is -- this

12     is something that's coming only from an operations guy that made a

13     mistake?

14        A.   My logic tells me that this copy book displayed in this way,

15     expressed in this way, does not reflect the essence.  When I analyse a

16     combat document, I understand it.  A copy book of an individual doesn't

17     mean anything to me, nor can I conclude what it's about based on one or

18     two words in a paragraph.  I have no idea what the writer meant to say.

19        Q.   Okay.  You mentioned when we were talking about the

20     self-organised paramilitaries and groups of avengers working with or

21     being -- co-ordinating with security officers, you as an example gave the

22     Skorpion unit.  So I take it you're aware of the -- the film where ten

23     members of the Skorpion unit can be seen together with six Muslim men and

24     boys and then at some point we see those men and boys, like you say, shot

25     in the back?

Page 41899

 1        A.   [No interpretation]

 2        Q.   Let me take to you a document, 65 ter --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the witness answered in the affirmative.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Oh, I'm sorry, I --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It was half nodding, half -- please proceed.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to 65 ter 01931.

 8        Q.   As that's coming up there, General, were you aware -- when you

 9     described Sarajevo you said one of the sections, I think, was the Trnovo

10     area and so I think you're familiar with some of the combat and

11     situations that were going on in the Trnovo area in July 1995?

12        A.   1995?

13        Q.   Yes.

14        A.   From the documents, yes.  From several documents.  I mean

15     primarily the monographs of the commander and the Chief of Staff of the

16     1st Corps and the combat documents of both sides.

17        Q.   And did you see from those documents that the Drina Corps had to

18     send units to assist the Serb forces on the -- at the Trnovo front?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And did you -- did you note that one of those forces was a

21     temporarily created brigade called the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade?

22        A.   It's a unit of temporary composition, yes.

23        Q.   Let's take a look at this document which is on this general

24     topic, and I think we can all see from looking at the Serbian version

25     that is it typed signed Ratko Mladic, SR.  It's dated 19 July.  And I

Page 41900

 1     really just want to touch base briefly on what this document's about.

 2             We see in the second paragraph it's a -- it's a reference to the

 3     4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade command for troop rotation in Trnovo.

 4     And if we look at General Mladic's order, point 1, he explains that due

 5     to the Drina Corps units' activities regarding the liberation of Zepa,

 6     searching the terrain, and blocking and destroying the remnants of Muslim

 7     groups from Srebrenica in the greater area of Cerska, Kamenica, and

 8     Pobudje, the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade remains at its present

 9     combat positions in the greater Trnovo until further notice.

10             So the -- by the 19th of July, the 4th Drina Light Infantry

11     Brigade is still stuck in Trnovo; correct?  On Mladic's orders?  Is that

12     correct?  I'm sorry, if you answered, I didn't --

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   Okay.  I'm sorry.  Okay.  Now I want to show you, and I'm not

15     going into great detail, I don't think it's necessary, but a map we

16     picked up from the Drina Corps collection.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could start off with 65 ter 33401.  And

18     if I could hand a bigger version, I think it will be helpful for the

19     General to take a look at.  We've provided these maps in big form to the

20     Defence a few days ago.  If he could just take a look at it to

21     familiarize himself with it.

22             And for the English readers, could we blow up the top so we can

23     get an idea of what that says.  The top left.

24             Okay.  And we see that it's the work map of the chief of

25     intelligence and security of the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade, which

Page 41901

 1     is printed out over the top of Sarajevo.

 2             Now can we go back and look at the blue marks on this map, kind

 3     of blow up the blue part, and with the English translations.

 4        Q.   Now, General, what I wanted to ask you about is, very briefly,

 5     what is this?  We see blue, we see red.  Is this a sketch of the Muslim

 6     positions and -- in blue and the Serb positions in red?

 7        A.   Yes, the Muslim or Bosniak forces are marked blue and the red are

 8     Serbian.  But a good part of the Muslim forces are in the area that was

 9     controlled by the United Nations.

10        Q.   All right.  And just in the very south of this map, our English

11     tell us that one of the initials of the Serb forces is the 1/4, which has

12     been translated as the 1st Battalion of the 4th Drina Light Infantry

13     Brigade.  Is that your understanding of that -- that -- those initials

14     down in the bottom south of the -- of this map, for the Serb forces?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   All right.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could I offer this into evidence, this -- this

18     map.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P7711, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, and also could I offer 01931 into evidence

23     too.  That was the Mladic map -- excuse me, the Mladic order regarding

24     the rotation of troops.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

Page 41902

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P7712, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P7712 is admitted into evidence.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. McCloskey, can you repeat the 65 ter number of

 4     this.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  01931.

 6             Now can we go to 65 ter number 33469.

 7        Q.   And, General, we can see, if we look at the Serbian sides, that

 8     this is from the commander, Major-General Radislav Krstic.  And I really

 9     just want to get from you, we see what -- what this is.  It's talking

10     about the transportation of men from the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade

11     and it issues an order in that effect.  And it gives the route by which

12     the men from these units are to go to get to Trnovo.  And we can see that

13     it's direction Bratunac, Milici, Vlasenica, Han Pijesak, Sokolac, Pale,

14     Dobre Vode, Trnovo.  That's in paragraph 2.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I'd like to offer that into evidence and get

16     a map that up will help us with this.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, I think there have to be

18     questions asked of the witness if they're going to offer a document

19     through a witness.  I don't see that one has as to this document.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  He's absolutely right.  I asked -- I forgot to

21     say:  Am I correct in the reading of that and my interpretation of it.

22     It's a bad way to save time.

23        Q.   Is that right, General?

24        A.   I didn't hear the interpretation.  I just heard the document

25     itself.  What you said is written in the document.

Page 41903

 1        Q.   And it is basically Krstic giving the directions of where the

 2     unit providing the reinforcements to Trnovo is to go; is that right?

 3        A.   Well, as the superior officer that was his obligation as well,

 4     yes.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If could I offer that in now.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 33469 will be

 9     Exhibit P7713.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P7713 is admitted.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   Now, General, you have a good working knowledge of the important

13     locations in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

14        A.   Well, some, yes.

15        Q.   And you -- you have a working knowledge of roughly where the

16     front lines were, very roughly, in 1995?

17        A.   In principle, yes.

18        Q.   And it's true when you -- people had to travel during the war

19     time they had to, of course -- both sides had to take into account where

20     those fronts lines were, so direct route to places may not have been as

21     direct as they would have been in peacetime?

22        A.   That's right.  One had to go around many roads, yes.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we see 65 ter 33523.

24        Q.   And if this will help, you could take a look at it.  It's another

25     map that we provided to the Defence.  And it's actually a composite of

Page 41904

 1     two maps that are already in evidence, so we've been able to put the --

 2     roughly where the front lines were from those other two maps.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   And just in looking at the maps, all we've really done here is,

 6     aside from helping remind you of roughly where the front lines were,

 7     we've noted the areas that we found on the map, the various cities, and

 8     plotted them out towards Trnovo and then onto the village of Turovi.

 9     Does that roughly accord to the locations that you -- that you recall and

10     would those be the right locations for the various towns and villages

11     that we've noted here?

12        A.   Well, this copy is not exactly legible.  It's only the names that

13     can be seen, and the lines, sort of.  Now, to what extent this is right,

14     to what extent it corresponds, I really cannot say.  It cannot be seen

15     very well.

16        Q.   It's not meant -- it's meant to show the towns in relation to the

17     front lines and their general position.  Does it roughly accord with your

18     recollection of that?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer that map into evidence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P7714, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P7714 is admitted.

24             Mr. McCloskey, I'm looking at the clock.  Mr. Ivetic you gave an

25     estimate of 40 minutes.  Is that still - I have to ask you - a valid

Page 41905

 1     estimate?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, 40, 45.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  40, 45.  Then, Mr. McCloskey, you've used

 4     approximately your time by now.  There were five minutes left.  Could you

 5     try to conclude in ten minutes from now.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I will try to get through

 7     this in -- in five minutes.  And there was one more document that was in

 8     response to the issue that --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you use your time to do what you can do in

10     those ten minutes, that would be appreciated.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  All right.  We need P3096.

12        Q.   And we'll soon be seeing, General, a document from Dragomir

13     Milosevic, the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, dated

14     23 July 1995, and it's a regular combat report to the Main Staff of the

15     VRS.  And I just want to note a couple of the things that -- here and ask

16     you to help me.

17             Under "the enemy" it says:

18             "The enemy forces attacked our units at Trnovo line during the

19     day.  That is at 1145 hours.  The most violent attack was launched at the

20     Runjevic feature, the point of convergence between the Ministry of

21     Interior, MUP (Skorpions) and the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade."

22             And then it describes the weapons used.  And then under "our

23     forces," it says:

24             "The MUP units (Skorpions) and the 4th Drina Light Infantry

25     Brigade successfully repelled the enemy attack and inflicted heavy losses

Page 41906

 1     on the enemy."

 2             And then it describes some more and it actually describes that in

 3     paragraph 3, that there were -- some Skorpions were wounded as well as

 4     the other forces of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now if we could go to -- it's a cutout from the

 6     big map that you saw that was the combat map from the Drina Brigade.

 7     This should be 65 ter 33505.

 8             Now, if we could blow that up a little bit, centring on the

 9     centre of the map right now.  Okay.  That's good.

10        Q.   In the centre, we see the Runjevica feature where the -- were the

11     1st Battalion of the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade is noted in

12     handwriting.  Would that be the feature referred to in Milosevic's

13     report?

14        A.   I think so.

15        Q.   And in that report, it says that the attack was launched at the

16     convergence between the Skorpion and the Drina units.  Can you tell us,

17     militarily, would those two units be side by side normally in a defence

18     line or would they be all mixed up together?

19        A.   In war time, there were different situations and the speed was

20     there to react to attacks by the other side.  As for this area,

21     specifically in this period, according to Muslim sources and according to

22     Serb sources, was a period of intensive offensive activities when the

23     Serb forces did not have enough units.  So both --

24        Q.   General -- I'm sorry, General.  I -- it was a simple question.

25     Are -- the Skorpions unit are adjacent to the Drina unit, right?  They're

Page 41907

 1     not all mixed up as they are on that defence line?

 2        A.   According to what was said here, next to, adjacent to.  And in

 3     principle, forces do not mix.  But you asked me in principle whether such

 4     cases were possible and that's how I answered.  But what I found out was

 5     adjacent to.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Can you put an SK on that Runjevic feature so that we can

 7     note that that's where they -- that's where that attack came at them, the

 8     Skorpions and the Drina outfit?  I know we don't know at this point know

 9     exactly where they were, but just put it anywhere on the Runjevic feature

10     since we do know that.

11        A.   I cannot assume where this smaller unit was.  This is a small

12     unit in terms of its number of personnel.  And on a map like this, it can

13     be 4 millimetres on the slopes of Runjevica to the south-west of

14     Runjevica.  So I cannot put something there that I cannot see in the text

15     itself.  I cannot see the exact position.

16        Q.   No, and that's a fair point.  I don't want the exact position,

17     and I just -- if you can just mark generally SK so that we can reflect

18     that you agree that this is the feature where the two units fought the

19     Muslims.

20        A.   The question was interpreted --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second.

22             Mr. McCloskey, we see where it says "1/4,DLPB," we see Runjevica

23     close to the elevation 992 there.  If that is the area you are referring

24     to.  If that's the area I think the witness said was what was referred

25     to, then we don't need it any further if the map is there.  Even without

Page 41908

 1     the marking we would know what part is dealt with.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   And we see here that this -- the red line to the far left, as we

 5     look at it, basically goes in a roughly north/south direction.  And from

 6     this document, we don't know whether the Skorpions are on the north of

 7     the Drina units or the south, do be?

 8        A.   Well, I cannot see it on the basis of the document either.

 9     That's what I said that I --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, do you know or do you not know?  If you

11     don't know, please tell us.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where they were.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, your last two or three minutes have

14     started.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to P07588.  Oh, sorry, could we put

16     this in evidence first.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And it's good that you asked already for the next

18     document so that it will be there.

19             Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33505 will be Exhibit P7715,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   And this is a document from the police force staff to the office

25     of the minister, the Pale police force staff.  So this is a MUP document.

Page 41909

 1     And this describes the location of the MUP forces as they're laid out,

 2     and I briefly would direct you to that.  And I specifically note that it

 3     says:

 4             "The defence line as far as above Turovi village is held by a PJP

 5     company from Doboj and a police company from Jahorina.  And on the right

 6     of the company from Doboj facing" --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. McCloskey please indicate where he is

 8     reading from in the B/C/S.  Thank you.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  In the middle.

10             "And on the right of the company from Doboj facing Runjevica, the

11     defence line is held by the Skorpije MUP of Serbia."

12             Now, can we go back to the last map we had up on the board, 7715.

13     P7715.

14        Q.   Now, sir, it's the position of the Prosecutor that if you go to

15     the Turovi village, which we see in this map in the bottom near the

16     right, and we go up as described, that show -- that would indicate that

17     the Skorpions are to the south of the 1st Battalion of the 4th Light

18     Infantry Brigade.  Just take a look at the document a little bit, if

19     you'd like.

20             And I can hand that to you so you can look at the map and the

21     document at the same time.

22             And if you agree or disagree or you don't know, either -- any of

23     those are, of course, appropriate.

24        A.   I don't know what the question is.

25        Q.   Do you agree with me that based on the information in that

Page 41910

 1     report, that that would show that the Skorpion unit are to the south of

 2     the Drina Light Infantry Brigade?  Because while it doesn't mention the

 3     light infantry brigade in that document, it does note the units as going

 4     up towards the north, to the Runjevic feature.  But, again, I -- I leave

 5     that up to you.

 6        A.   A moment ago, when it was being read out, it said to the right of

 7     the Drina Light Infantry Brigade.  It's probably a reference to this

 8     1st Battalion.  And now on this basis it is concluded, according to the

 9     text, that it is to the left.  So it can be to the left, south-west of

10     the 1st Battalion of the 4th Brigade.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, the time is over.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have one more map that would tie this into

15     the indictment --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The time is over.  That's -- because otherwise

17     you've spent more time than you asked for.  The Defence still needs

18     another 45 minutes, 40 to 45 minutes.  They'll get 40.  We leave it to

19     that.  But let me just consult with my colleagues.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm overruled, Mr. McCloskey.  But then we should

22     prepare for at least some -- a little bit of additional time beyond

23     quarter past 2.00.  I hope that that will be available.  Otherwise we

24     would have to have a session tomorrow for 15 or 20 minutes, which is not

25     something I think the parties were seeking, neither is the Chamber.

Page 41911

 1             One map.  Try to deal with it as quickly as you can.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to 65 ter 33517.

 3        Q.   You mentioned you looked at the materials, or you know about the

 4     Skorpion murders.  And this map will be ...

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we -- I think that needs to be gone back a

 6     little bit.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, my eyes are not seeing what I'm having to

 9     show.

10        Q.   What you're seeing is, of course, the Runjevic feature and what

11     we have -- the Prosecution has marked on this map in yellow boxes the

12     co-ordinate of where the -- a body was picked up, and in the area of the

13     mass executions of these people, the house location is where a house that

14     is seen on the video is -- is -- was noted in the -- in the film and the

15     arrival site is along the road where the people were in a -- in a truck.

16             Now, we can see that this execution area is very close to the

17     front line where the Skorpions were wounded on the 23rd of July.  My --

18     my last question on this topic is:  To pull ten people off a very

19     important defence line, would that not have to be authorised by the

20     superiors in -- in charge of that defence?

21             MR. IVETIC:  Objection.  Misstates the evidence.  The witness on

22     this topic did not say they were pulled from the front line.  He said the

23     opposite.  It is RM280.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I don't know whether -- were you quoting

25     the evidence, Mr. McCloskey?

Page 41912

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey was putting a question to the witness,

 3     not necessarily quoting what the evidence was at the time.  And

 4     therefore --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Then foundation.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Foundation is a -- I think that Mr. McCloskey may

 7     put this question to the witness.  If there's any foundational issue, you

 8     can revisit that.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please again put the question to the

11     witness, Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   Sir, if ten members of a unit were on that front line, would they

14     not have to have the authorisation of their superiors to be pulled off

15     it?

16        A.   No, because this is a MUP unit and we can see on the basis of all

17     of this, they had their own area of responsibility.  And I said already

18     at the outset I saw that footage several times.  I think that it was made

19     by murderers, professional murderers, with the intention of selling that

20     footage later on and in order to discredit the struggle of the people.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You're going far beyond the question that was put to

22     you and thus you're abusing the time available to Mr. McCloskey.

23             The answer was no.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I offer this map into evidence.

Page 41913

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 33517 will be Exhibit P7716, Your Honours.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, that ends my presentation.  I

 4     did -- there was one question related to questions asked by Judge Moloto

 5     that I have one document about.  I don't want to keep us here.  I don't

 6     want to us be in court tomorrow, but I do have that.  That would maybe

 7     take five minutes, I hope.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me then first check at all whether we could have

 9     a extended session.

10             Mr. Registrar.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Fifteen minutes is, as I'm told, possible.  Which

13     means that if you would stop in four minutes from now, we would have a

14     break and resume at a quarter to 2.00 and Mr. Ivetic would have

15     45 minutes.

16             And I see Mr. Mladic is nodding that he agrees.

17             P7716 is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we have 65 ter 2318 up on the board.

19     And let's get the Serbian up.  And could we blow up the right-hand

20     corner?

21        Q.   Sir, we see that this is noted to be a transcript of an

22     audio-taped recording of a conversation between Colonel General

23     Ratko Mladic and Dusan Kozic, prime minister of the RS, 23 October 1995

24     at 1640 hours.  And then we see handwritten:

25             "Tosa, they took it all down well, I'm only not sure whom he

Page 41914

 1     mentioned in addition to Djukanovic."

 2             And then we see this initial.  Do you recognise General Mladic's

 3     initial?

 4        A.   No, I have never seen his initials.

 5        Q.   And it's the Prosecution's position the initials next to that are

 6     the initials of Zdravko Tolimir.  Have you ever seen Zdravko Tolimir's

 7     initials?

 8        A.   Only signatures on combat documents.  I've never seen his

 9     initials.

10        Q.   And do you know that Tosa was Tolimir's nickname that Mladic used

11     to call him?

12        A.   I don't know.  I was a young officer at that time, a captain.  I

13     was not familiar with that level of command.

14        Q.   All right.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to page 12 of this transcripted

16     conversation in English, and B/C/S page 11.

17        Q.   And they're talking about some sort of a job to do, and Kozic

18     concludes in the middle of the page:

19             "So it means Beara."

20             And Mladic responds:

21             "No, if only it was Beara.  Beara wouldn't do anything to bypass

22     the system, anything to bypass my orders.  Beara is in the cross-hairs,

23     poor man."

24             And then it goes on.

25             MR. IVETIC:  I think the question misstates the document.

Page 41915

 1     They're not talking about some kind of job.  They're talking about the

 2     fallen pilots.  So if you're going to present a --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I haven't heard a question yet if I -- apart from

 4     that, Mr. Ivetic, you're invited not already to stand when you're still

 5     waiting for making an objection, but rather jump up if you make an

 6     objection.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   And that contradicts your view that you expressed earlier, that

10     Colonel Beara would be acting on his own without Mladic's knowledge?

11             MR. IVETIC:  Object to the question.  Misstates the prior

12     evidence which was in relation to events in Srebrenica.  This has not

13     been tied to Srebrenica, at least not in the question, not in the text

14     I've read, and I've read the whole document.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I agree.  It's not about Srebrenica.  It's about

16     the relationship between Beara and Mladic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The objection is overruled.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   You can answer the question, sir.

20        A.   I didn't say that Beara was a renegade in that sense and that he

21     wasn't complying with orders.  But what he was doing there and that

22     communication that I saw in the documents indicates that he was doing

23     that on his own as part of his job in co-operation with the subordinate

24     security organs and that he didn't need any approval for that.  No

25     special approval.

Page 41916

 1        Q.   And this particular document suggests that Beara would be very

 2     loyal to General Mladic and follow his orders, doesn't it?

 3        A.   I don't see anything about loyalty.  I see that he is

 4     subordinate, not in the first line of subordination but the second line

 5     of subordination in the Main Staff.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, I think we now really came to the

 7     point.  The witness has answered this question.  We are at the last page

 8     of the document.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  You didn't give me a chance to close,

10     Your Honour.  That's it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Do it.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I close.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Given the closure, I have a follow-up question

15     which I -- which I had earlier but let pass, but now this topic is being

16     come backed to.

17             When we talked about Beara earlier in the day and you said that

18     he did what he did without Mladic's consent, I wanted -- you said Mladic

19     didn't have the jurisdiction to discipline but he could initiate

20     proceedings.  Are you aware of any proceedings that he initiated in that

21     respect?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether he ever found

23     out or whether he initiated proceedings.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not the question.  The question is:  Are

25     you aware of proceedings that he initiated whether --

Page 41917

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, Mr. President, could I offer this

 5     document into evidence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Registrar, and could the witness already be

 7     escorted out of the courtroom.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 02318 will be Exhibit P7717, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P7717 is admitted into evidence.

11             We take a break.  We'll resume at ten minutes to 2.00.

12             What is not yet on the record is that I said that I saw

13     Mr. Mladic confirming and nodding that he had -- did not object to such

14     an extended session.

15             We take a break and we'll resume at ten minutes to 2.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 1.29 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.50 p.m.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

20             Witness, could I you urge you again to try to answer the

21     questions as directly as possible.

22             Please proceed.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  Good afternoon.

24                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

25        Q.   I'd like to look at P1505 which was shown to you today.  This was

Page 41918

 1     shown to you today in relation to questions relating about orders,

 2     relating about tasks, et cetera.  Looking at the heading on this

 3     document, [Interpretation] "Information for brigade members, submitted

 4     to," [In English] is this document a command document, that is to say, an

 5     order of any type?

 6        A.   No, it's not an order.  It's just information as envisaged by

 7     documents made, prepared in unit commands.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  For the next questions we should go into private

10     session.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 41919











11  Page 41919-41922 redacted.  Private session.















Page 41923

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 5             MR. IVETIC:

 6        Q.   General, at the very beginning of your cross-examination by the

 7     Prosecution, you were asked about two documents that had the word

 8     "ciscenje," and these were P7664 and P7665.  Although Mr. Weber promised

 9     that he would get to the definition of that word with you at transcript

10     page 41581, lines 13 through 16, in fact, he did not.

11             Militarily speaking, can you give us a definition of the term

12     "ciscenje teren," or "cleansing of the terrain" in English?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  I was just making sure it was working.

15             I believe that the documents didn't refer -- Mr. Ivetic is now

16     asking for a definition of something more than what, I guess, I was

17     referring to.  I referred to ciscenje, he's adding the -- now a factor

18     that did not derive from I believe I was originally drawing the attention

19     to.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If -- well, the main issue is not and I even

21     wondered whether there was any need to tell that did not ask, et cetera.

22     Mr. Ivetic is now asking a question, and we'll later find out whether

23     it's about the same subject as you dealt with or whether there's any

24     difference.

25             Please proceed.

Page 41924

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   General, can you answer.  What is the definition of "ciscenje

 3     teren"?

 4        A.   In military terminology, clearing or cleansing is a concept that

 5     means searching the terrain for armed enemy formations in the area of

 6     responsibility, in the area of action, or the area of employment of

 7     forces.  So within one's own disposition or in the area of use of forces,

 8     and it pertains to armed units.

 9        Q.   In a military sense, is there any difference between ciscenje and

10     ciscenje teren?

11        A.   Ciscenje is a general term, whereas clearing the terrain means,

12     in fact, pertains to armed elements armed units, terrorists, sabotage

13     groups, et cetera.  That's what cleansing or clearing the terrain would

14     mean.

15        Q.   And you were asked about P7667.

16             MR. IVETIC:  And I'd like to call that document up on the screen.

17        Q.   We see here the document is from the SDB, state security sector.

18     It mentions SDB and MUP.  Would either the SDB or MUP, under normal

19     conditions, be services that fall under the command structure of the JNA?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Looking at the appearance and format of this report, does it

22     resemble -- does it have the elements that would be expected of a report

23     sent to a military commander of the JNA?

24        A.   I don't see any military elements.  I see information or

25     intelligence that falls within their jurisdiction.

Page 41925

 1        Q.   Early in the cross-examination you were questioned at length

 2     about portions of your expert report that rely upon Professor Radinovic.

 3     In relation to those paragraphs where you adopted text or conclusions

 4     shared by Professor Radinovic, what steps did you take to verify the

 5     information at issue before using the same?

 6        A.   I used the database of the original documents given me for review

 7     that I indicated at the beginning of my testimony.  That means the

 8     database of the forces of the VRS and partly documents of the BiH army

 9     and some of the HVO, but there were much less of them.

10        Q.   Did Professor Radinovic know that you were preparing an expert

11     report for this case?

12        A.   Yes.  Naturally, we contact -- we were in contact a lot while he

13     was making his expert report for Karadzic and while I was making mine for

14     this case.

15        Q.   Did Professor Radinovic ever voice any objection to your use of

16     materials from his own expert reports?

17        A.   No.  On the contrary.  He gave me himself his material and even

18     his documents and some monographs and books, and sometimes we discussed

19     the findings that he arrived at and that I arrived myself at.

20             MR. IVETIC:  If we can now call up P7086.

21        Q.   While we wait for it, this was a document you were asked about at

22     transcript page 41578.  And we'll see it's from the command of the Birac

23     Brigade and signed by Major Svetozar Andric.

24             Andric testified at this trial, at transcript page 34773 to

25     34775, about this, and I'd like to quote two parts of his testimony about

Page 41926

 1     this order to you.

 2             The first part is as follows:

 3             "This order pertained to all, not only Muslims.  Serbs were also

 4     moving out because this was a combat area.  So at the same time Serbs

 5     left, went to Zvornik and Srbinje.  In order to protect the people there

 6     I ordered that women and children be allowed to go to Kalesija and

 7     Gracanica because of combat operations.  Then also because of revenge.

 8             "People, refugees were coming in from Gracanica, Kalesija, Tuzla,

 9     and we had to prevent any kind of revenge that could be taken by them,

10     and that is why I have to say that it is precisely this order of mine

11     that saved thousands of people.  Had we left these people in the combat

12     area, I believe that many would not be alive today.  So it is precisely

13     this order that contributed.

14             "And later on, we will see that the same persons were exchanged

15     and that to this day they live together with their families."

16             And the second part of the testimony in relation to this document

17     is as follows:

18             "I don't know whether -- well, from the combat zone, both Muslims

19     and Serbs were moved out because that was basically a front line.  We did

20     not have any depth in our front, Mr. President.  We did not have a depth

21     of the front.  We just had the front line.  So how could you control what

22     was happening in depth?  Just one example:  A brigade defends 10 to

23     15 kilometres principle, whereas the zone of my brigade is

24     150 kilometres.  150 kilometres.  Along one line you have 100 kilometres

25     in depth.  You cannot prevent revenge.  You cannot --"

Page 41927

 1             And that's where the testimony ended.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I see counsel on his feet.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, just for the record, I do not believe

 5     that this fully accurately conveys the testimony related to the document

 6     in particular.  I would just note that a portion on page 34775 --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, if you think it's taken out of context,

 8     you have an opportunity to address that later --

 9             MR. WEBER:  But just for the record, I'm not --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You're inviting Mr. Ivetic to read that to the

11     witness.  I have it in front of me so I know exactly what -- that it was

12     a literal quote but it was not all of it.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Do you understand what Andric is talking about in relation to,

16     first, removing people from combat zone, and then, second, this concept

17     depth of the front?  From a military perspective what are those two

18     concepts?

19        A.   As I see it, this testimony represents the actual conditions on

20     the ground.  It's one month into the beginning of the civil war and the

21     commander was not able to -- with those forces that had not yet been

22     established as a proper army was not able to control even the front line,

23     let alone behind the lines, and deal with various groups in villages and

24     populated areas.  This approach to the departure of the population under

25     the control of the armed forces was, indeed, an act of salvation, an act

Page 41928

 1     of rescue, in the whole combat area and in the area of Podrinje

 2     generally.

 3        Q.   If we can now move to P3822 which was also shown to you by the

 4     Prosecution.  That's at transcript page 41580 and onwards.  And once we

 5     pull up that document, I'd like to look at the -- exactly the part that

 6     the Prosecution highlighted which was section 1b.

 7             General, if you look at the text contained in this combat report,

 8     in section 1b, and keep in mind my question which is:  From a military

 9     perspective, if a professionally trained military officer were to receive

10     such a report, would it, in your opinion, put him on notice of any

11     potential wrong-doing on the part of subordinate soldiers?

12             So please read 1b to yourself and then let us know the answer to

13     that question.

14        A.   I think the term is used here in the meaning of the basic

15     military concept, and it pertains to armed groups and units in that zone.

16        Q.   And now let's keep in mind this document is dated

17     22 September 1992.

18             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like to look at an earlier document, P718, which

19     is from the command of the 2nd Romanija Brigade dated 22 August 1992.

20             And if we can go to the second page in both, I'm looking for

21     the -- yes, the very last part of this document that says:

22             "Within this territory in the villages of Micivode, Raktitnica,

23     Kramer Selo, and Novoseoci, there is a certain number of extremists who

24     are peaceful for now.  They are not causing problems to the Serbian

25     population but we are keeping them under control."

Page 41929

 1        Q.   If there are extremists in an area, the same area that was the

 2     subject of the last document we looked at, do you consider the military

 3     actions that were reported in the previous document to be appropriate to

 4     handle extremists?

 5        A.   I think so.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like to look at D130, and this will be dated

 7     27 July 1992 from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and I would ask that we

 8     focus on the second paragraph.  It's the second paragraph, part 1.  And

 9     the translation is a little bit different than the one I have so I'll

10     read from the screen.  And it says:

11             "Muslim population surrendered their weapons and lethal assets to

12     representatives of the 2nd Romanija Brigade in the village of Novoseoci,

13     5 to 6 kilometres south of Sokolac, Glasinacko Polje.  The surrender was

14     done as agreed, and it is believed not all of the weapons have been

15     surrendered."

16             In your opinion, would the existence of armed extremists in this

17     area justify the actions of the army that were reported in the report --

18     combat report that we just looked at from September 22nd, 1992?

19        A.   Yes, that's simply a necessary measure.

20        Q.   Now I'd like to turn to your report.

21             MR. IVETIC:  1D5358, paragraph 4.220 of the same, which should

22     be ... should be on page 177 of the B/C/S, 179 and 180 of the English.

23        Q.   This is in relation to the couple that was killed on the Vrbanja

24     bridge.  And during cross-examination you were asked about this text

25     being identical only to Wikipedia and not other sources.

Page 41930

 1             MR. IVETIC:  At this time, I would ask that 65 ter 1D6179 be

 2     called up.  It is a Serbian-language newspaper, "Kurir," from its web

 3     site, dated 18 May 2013.  And we have a draft translation that we have

 4     prepared and I have a hard copy for the witness, with the help of the

 5     usher.  And we see here that this publicly available document does talk

 6     about the burial in Lukavica, does talk about the burial at the request

 7     of Admira's parents in Sarajevo cemetery afterwards.

 8        Q.   I'd ask to you look at the Serbian original of this document,

 9     compare it to paragraph 4.220 of your report, and tell us if this is

10     perhaps one of the other sources that you identified at transcript

11     page 41534, line 24 and onwards, during the cross-examination, in

12     addition to the Wikipedia page?

13        A.   This is one of the sources.  There were quite a few other papers

14     that provided information about the event.  I'm sorry that the essence of

15     the crime was not referred to then, the crime perpetrated by the special

16     forces of the Muslims.  Because one can see how monstrous this was, the

17     planning of the crime and its purpose, that was attained within the media

18     war concerning this so-called siege of Sarajevo and the terrorisation of

19     the civilian position.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put one question to the witness with

21     respect to this.

22             You said you used this also in preparing your report.  Why is it

23     not footnoted?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said then as well that with

25     regard to one and the same thing, I would have six or seven sources and

Page 41931

 1     then I would refer to one of the sources, simply so that one of these

 2     sources could be found there.  That's it.  That's the main reason.  If I

 3     were to footnote all the sources that I used, then I would have done

 4     that.  It's just that I wrote the way any monograph is written.  That was

 5     my style of writing.  So that was one of the sources, so there.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  We would tender this to be marked for identification

 8     since the English translation is not an official one.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do so, I just want to say that line of

10     examination was leading, Mr. Ivetic.  You could have asked the witness

11     quite simply what other sources did you consult and could lead that,

12     rather than show him this and then ask him:  Is this one of the sources

13     that you could have -- that you may have looked at.

14             MR. IVETIC:  He was already asked --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just want to put that on the record.

16             MR. IVETIC:  And in the transcript section that I referenced, he

17     was already asked and he said he looked at a variety of other sources

18     including other newspaper articles.  The Prosecution said this text could

19     only be found in Wikipedia.  We found that it's found in other articles

20     as well.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We all know that.  We all know that, Mr. Ivetic.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You could have asked him, you, yourself, what

23     other sources did he consult rather than show him that.  That's what's

24     leading.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And just for my ... yes.

Page 41932

 1             Please proceed.

 2             Mr. Weber.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I asked for it to be marked for identification.

 4             MR. WEBER:  No objection.  I believe this just goes to the --

 5     further the issue of transparency.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, what number?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be MFI D1365, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is marked for identification.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

10             MR. IVETIC:

11        Q.   You were asked at transcript page 41644 about your criticism of

12     civilians in Sarajevo that did not leave the front lines.  And that was

13     in relation to paragraph 4.148 of your report, which is at page 153

14     English and Serbian page 150.

15             I'd like to look at a document with you.

16             MR. IVETIC:  1D6180.  It is from the International Committee of

17     the Red Cross from their official web site.  Again, it's 1D6180.

18             And I'd first like to turn to page 9.

19        Q.   And the part under ICRC at the top says:

20             "To fulfil its task of disseminating IHL, the ICRC has delegates

21     around the world teaching armed and security forces that:  'A military

22     objective remains a military objective even if civilian persons are in

23     it.  The civilian persons within such an objective or its immediate

24     surrounds share the danger to which it is exposed.'"

25             Is what is written here consistent with your understanding of the

Page 41933

 1     situation?

 2             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I just -- continuing the concern

 3     expressed by Judge Moloto, I'm a little concerned about just the

 4     non-open-ended nature of the information.  If there was a question that

 5     was posed, that then there's a further explanation of the --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Is this consistent with his understanding of the

 7     law.  We're asking --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you can also lead a witness in his

 9     understanding of the law, so these two are unrelated.  The objection is

10     leading.  Your answer is:  I can lead if it is about the understanding of

11     the law.  And I don't think that that's -- that's an exception to the --

12     but -- but let's just -- Mr. Weber has expressed his concern.  That's it.

13     You have answered to that.

14             Let's ask the witness to answer -- let's ask the witness to

15     answer the question.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in this sense, civilian

17     facilities -- civilian buildings taken by military forces are

18     unfortunately targets.  And may I present the following position here?

19     Now, I don't know whether this was mistakenly stated to the information.

20     I did not say that civilians, that it was their fault because they didn't

21     take care of themselves.  On the contrary.  I insisted that military

22     forces and the authorities should have removed civilians on the Serb side

23     and on the Muslim side.

24             MR. IVETIC:  If we can tender this document.

25             MR. WEBER:  We do object to it.  I mean, in the context that it

Page 41934

 1     is being offered, it is not clear even in relation to the witness's

 2     answer, the relevance is unclear at this time, and we do not have the

 3     full context of the document, I believe, even before us.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  We do have the full document in its entirety.  It's,

 5     I believe, ten pages or nine pages.  It's the law.  It's to help

 6     Your Honours know the law.  It is entered from the bar table.  As the

 7     Prosecution did with at least 2.000 documents.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, strong language doesn't make strong arguments

 9     because you always opposed against this calling from the bar table.  But

10     if you would like to have it admitted because it's relevant in the

11     context of the testimony of the witness, then ...

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would -- could you please upload the relevant

14     page of this 1987 document apparently where it appears, whereas you know

15     that we have extensive 2005 documentation of the ICRC.  But if you could

16     upload the relevant page so as to -- so that the Chamber knows the law

17     better, that would be appreciated.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, this entire document of nine pages is

19     a summation of the law published by the ICRC.  These are their citations

20     from their official web site.  They have the law for Canada, Angola,

21     Belgium, France, United States, it's all in this document with citations.

22     I'm asking for this document to be --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You want the whole of the document.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, it's nine pages --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Not only the ICRC part but also Oppenheim, America's

Page 41935

 1     Watch, Africa Watch, everything.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think we need further submissions of the

 4     parties and also an opportunity to further read the matter because these

 5     are complex matters.  Civilians inside a military objective is a rather

 6     complex legal issue, as you may be aware of, and touches upon other

 7     matters as well.  I would -- under those circumstances, I would postpone

 8     a decision on admission and invite the parties to make further

 9     submissions on this way of teaching the law to this Chamber.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But it could be marked for identification.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1366, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

14             And I don't think -- we don't have a translation in B/C/S yet.

15             MR. IVETIC:  No, no, no.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's another reason to mark it for identification.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Right.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. IVETIC:  If we can call up P431 and look at page 35 in the

20     Serbian, page 43 in the English.

21        Q.   This was shown to you by Mr. Weber at transcript page 41634 and

22     it is General Mladic's speech at the 16th National Assembly.

23             MR. IVETIC:  And I assume that we'll go to the pages that I

24     hopefully cited correctly.  My transcript is non-responsive.  Again, it's

25     page 35 in the B/C/S and page 43 in the English.

Page 41936

 1             And we don't need to read the whole thing but it's there so

 2     people can see that I'm not changing the facts.

 3        Q.   You were asked about the comments of not taking prisoners, and if

 4     you read the entire selection, we see that the talk is about mercenaries.

 5     And there are no conventions in international law binding to us as far as

 6     he, a mercenary, is concerned.

 7             What is your knowledge of the status of mercenaries under the

 8     Geneva Conventions, especially Article 47 of the Additional Protocols?

 9     Do they share protections offered to prisoners of war?

10        A.   No.  That goes for national legislation as well.  That's the way

11     it was in the former SFRY.  And that is what the regulations of the newly

12     created states say too.  Mercenaries are a category of people who do not

13     enjoy all the protection that imprisoned military personnel do.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, again, you are referring to Article 47

15     of the Additional Protocols, that's in the plural.  Does that mean that

16     you meant --

17             MR. IVETIC:  I meant protocol.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And then which Additional Protocol did you have in

19     mind?

20             MR. IVETIC:  My understanding it is protocol.  That's what I have

21     written down, and let me just double-check.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You are aware that there are more than one.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, yes.  Well --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  1977?  Which one were you referring to?

25             MR. IVETIC:  I was referring to Additional Protocols.  The

Page 41937

 1     witness has answered.  I can ask the witness if he knows which one.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, no, no --

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I have the text --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I want you if you refer in a question to

 5     Additional Protocols, if there are more of them, and unless you say they

 6     all have like common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, they all have a

 7     common Article 47 in those protocols, if you don't say that, then I think

 8     you are putting a question which might confuse the witness.  Because if

 9     there is no such Article 47 common to the Additional Protocols we have a

10     problem in understanding the question.  At least I have.

11             MR. IVETIC:  AP, Roman I, Article 47.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you are referring to first

13     Additional Protocol.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             Then could you -- specifically the question was directly in

17     relation to Article 47 of the first protocol.  Are you aware of the

18     content of it, Witness?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not directly.  That article.  I

20     spoke in principle about the difference in status between a mercenary and

21     a military prisoner of war.  I am not that familiar with legal norms, so

22     I cannot know exactly what is defined in each and every article.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps you read the relevant portion to the

24     witness.  If you insist.  And otherwise we'll move on.

25             MR. IVETIC:  I was satisfied with his answer especially with the

Page 41938

 1     national legislation.  I have just one other question and it's to ask him

 2     to look at that map which to his left.  A copy has been given to the

 3     Prosecution last week.  We've also seen it this week.

 4        Q.   Just to see if we can identify if that is one of the maps that

 5     was listed as an attachment to his report since this is the one that

 6     was -- could not be scanned and had to be sent to me in hard copy and I

 7     honestly don't know if this is one of those or not.

 8        A.   That's not the map.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Then I have no further questions on that map.

10             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, I'm done.  I apologise.  We've

11     gone a little bit over the time that was foreseen.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at you, Mr. Weber, Mr. McCloskey, we

13     really have -- we have an extended session but we should finish in --

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We have no further questions, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions.  Then let me see whether we

16     have any further questions.  Let me check one tiny little thing.

17             I have no further questions for you either.

18             Mr. Kovac, this concludes your testimony in this court.  I'd like

19     to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having

20     waited very patiently a few occasions because your testimony was

21     interrupted several times.  We highly appreciated that -- we highly

22     appreciate that you made yourself available in this way.  You've answered

23     the questions that were put to you by the parties, by the Bench.  We wish

24     you a safe return home again.  You may follow the usher.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 41939

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, just before the witness is actually

 2     excused, we had that handwritten document of the comparison of the

 3     paragraphs originally that the witness provided to the Chamber and we do

 4     have a present in court.  We have no objection to having it being

 5     returned to the witness before he leaves.  We have scanned it in.  I just

 6     wanted to raise that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If -- if you would --

 8             The original will you returned to you -- yes.

 9             The original is now returned to you.  A copy has been made but

10     that you have at least also your own copy, which is the original copy of

11     the notes you made.  Thank you again.

12             You may follow the usher.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and the week, but not after

16     having thanked all those assisting us deeply for, again, their

17     flexibility.  It's now for a second day.  Also, Mr. Mladic for making it

18     possible for -- to have no session tomorrow, which I think would suit the

19     parties very well.  Thanks to all.

20             We adjourn until Monday, the 30th of November, 9.30 in the

21     morning, in this same courtroom, I.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.44 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day of

24                           November, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.