Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 42032

 1                           Tuesday, 1 December 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

12             Mr. Traldi, do you think that - I think you have some two and a

13     half hours left - that you will be able to conclude the cross-examination

14     within that time?

15             MR. TRALDI:  I'll certainly endeavour to, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because the Chamber was informed that the

17     witness had a strong wish to be able to return home.  He has -- because

18     he has commitments tomorrow.

19             Mr. Stojanovic.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, judging by what I have

21     today, it would be ten minutes, I think.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then perhaps the witness himself could

23     also add to ...

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Kovic.

Page 42033

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that you'd very much wish to be able

 3     to return, if possible today.  You have commitments at home.  You can

 4     certainly contribute to that, to achieving that aim by giving focussed

 5     answers on the questions.  I think it already went quite a bit better

 6     yesterday.

 7             Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination but not until

 8     after I have reminded you that you have still bound by the solemn

 9     declaration given at the beginning of your testimony.

10             Yes?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will stay here in The Hague as

12     long as is necessary to the Court and to the Defence.  That's my evidence

13     for you.  My other obligations are a different matter.  I will stay here

14     as long as you need me.  And, of course, I -- I accept your suggestions.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's appreciated.  And, nevertheless, we will see

16     whether we can accommodate you.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                           WITNESS:  MILOS KOVIC [Resumed]

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

22        Q.   Good morning, sir.

23        A.   Good morning.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31857.

25        Q.   Now, this is an article in Sedam Dana by Slavisa Sabljic titled:

Page 42034

 1     Black flags in a village that was sacrificed.  Turning to page 2 in the

 2     English, in the middle, and at the bottom of the left-hand column in the

 3     B/C/S he refers to an attack on Kijevo by members of the JNA,

 4     territorials from Knin, and the Krajina policemen, on the one hand, and

 5     the MUP of the Republic of Croatia and the National Guard Corps on the

 6     other.  And then turning to page 3 in the English, the middle of page 1

 7     in B/C/S, below the picture, he writes:  "In fact, Kijevo is a village

 8     without any villagers now and no one knows if anyone will ever return

 9     there.  This was a big village with about 1.000 inhabitants.  They were

10     exclusively Croats."

11             Now, you mentioned Kijevo a couple of times in your reports and

12     you criticised Dr. Donia's references to it.  The truth is, after the

13     attack, what used to be a Croat village of 1.000 people was empty; right?

14        A.   No.  And I can explain why.

15        Q.   Is it your evidence that Croats remained there after the attack?

16        A.   No.  I could not agree with your interpretation of what happened

17     there, but as for the report of Robert Donia, which is discussed here, I

18     can explain.

19        Q.   Sir, I'd asked you a simple question.  It was empty of its Croat

20     population after the attack; right?  Yes or no.

21        A.   That part of your question, yes; but your interpretation of the

22     event, no.  And I said I can explain.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 31861.

24        Q.   This is an article from Belgrade Radio on 26 August, 1991.  We

25     see it begins that:  "At 1210 at one of numerous firing positions toward

Page 42035

 1     Kijevo, we heard the following message:  Kijevo no longer exists."

 2             That's an accurate reflection of the scale of the destruction of

 3     the village; right?

 4        A.   The question is whether Kijevo existed after the fighting in

 5     Kijevo; right?  Whether it was devastated in the measure it is said here.

 6     I wasn't there.  I can't testify to whether Kijevo still existed or

 7     whether it was destroyed to that extent.  But, as I said, I would like to

 8     have the opportunity to explain, especially about the report of Dr. Donia

 9     and what he says about it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Not the report of Dr. Donia was put to you.  What

11     was put to you is a newspaper article, it was referred that you

12     criticised Dr. Donia and then Mr. Traldi started asking you about what,

13     as far as you know, what happened in Kijevo.

14             Therefore -- yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  I can say that, yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 31857 and 31861.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 31857 will be Exhibit P7725.

20             And 65 ter 31861 will be Exhibit P7726.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P7725 and 7726 are admitted.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 33374.

23        Q.   This is an article titled:  The Serbian Vukovar shall live,

24     published in a magazine called Velika Srbija in February 1992.

25     Velika Srbija was published by the Serb Radical Party; right?

Page 42036

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   The SRS was a Serb nationalist party; right?

 3        A.   Depends on what you understand by nationalist.  These are labels.

 4     Somebody can be an imperialist or a nationalist.  It all depends.  I

 5     would not like to go into ideological labelling.

 6        Q.   Well, sir, the name of the publication, Velika Srbija, that's

 7     translated as Greater Serbia; right?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   And that was part of the goal the accomplishment of Greater

10     Serbia was part of the goal of that party and its president, Vojislav

11     Seselj; right?

12        A.   Greater Serbia is an ideal from the 19th and early 20th

13     century --

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

15        A.   And in that there was nothing contestable.

16        Q.   I hadn't asked you who had that goal in the 19th century.  I

17     asked you whether a specific person and his political party had that goal

18     in 1992.  That's Vojislav Seselj and the SRS.  Do you agree that they had

19     that goal in 1992?

20        A.   If you define the nationalism, make your question precisely and I

21     will answer it.  What is a nationalist?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that was one of the previous questions.

23     Would you now answer the present question, whether Greater Serbia was one

24     of the goals of the party led by Mr. Vojislav Seselj.  That's the

25     question.

Page 42037

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Considering that Seselj himself

 2     says it was an objective of his party, there is no reason for me to

 3     challenge it.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   Now, we begin -- we read at the beginning, the author says:  "At

 6     the beginning of December, together with a group of volunteers, I visited

 7     Vukovar, a city which no longer exists."

 8             If we turn to page 4 in English, 3 in B/C/S, the very end of the

 9     article --

10             MR. TRALDI:  Just have the very end in English.  And that will be

11     page 5 - sorry.

12        Q.   We read three paragraphs before the end:  "Only the skeletons of

13     buildings were left as a warning sign.  The Count and the Nobel prize

14     winner were left homeless.  Everybody is Vukovar is homeless."

15             Now again, you criticise Dr. Donia's description of events in

16     Vukovar in your report.  You don't contest that this is the scale of the

17     damage that Vukovar experienced; right?

18        A.   If you want me to confirm whether there was devastation in

19     Vukovar, yes, whether there was fighting, yes.  Donia's interpretation,

20     no.  Let me just say this.  The JNA was attacked in Vukovar.  These were

21     defence actions of the Yugoslav People's Army and that goes for Kijevo

22     too.  So the JNA was attacked, Vladimir Seks, the president of the

23     Croatian Parliament, announced an attack earlier on the barracks of the

24     Yugoslav People's Army.  Knowing that is quite enough for you to

25     understand this.

Page 42038

 1             MR. TRALDI:  I tender 65 ter 33374.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P7727, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 20710.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you repeat the number.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  20710.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   This is a transcript of an intercepted conversation on the 21st

11     of April 1992 between Goran Saric and Mico Davidovic, members of the

12     Republika Srpska and federal MUPs, respectively.  We see on this page

13     they introduce themselves.

14             Turning to page 4 in the English and 2 in the B/C/S - at the

15     bottom in the B/C/S - Saric says:  "The town of Sarajevo is well, okay,

16     normally Bijeljina, Zvornik and this part that has been solved, Krajina

17     and that is solved, as well.  It is known who owns that."

18             Pausing there for a moment, you agree that Bijeljina, Zvornik and

19     Krajina, that is to say, the ARK were all territories claimed by the

20     Serbs; right?

21        A.   No, no.  No, and I can explain.

22        Q.   You do not agree that the Serbs claimed Bijeljina, Zvornik and

23     the ARK?

24        A.   No, and I can explain.

25        Q.   I'll be very interested to hear it.

Page 42039

 1        A.   Thank you.  Yesterday you submitted to the honourable Court the

 2     war objectives of the Republika Srpska.  Those were strategic objectives

 3     and you insisted on them.  It says there that Republika Srpska should

 4     liberate the Serbian Krajina and Podrinje and connect them with a

 5     corridor.  It doesn't say exactly there which cities and towns should go

 6     to Republika Srpska.  On the contrary.  From the debates in the

 7     Parliament of Republika Srpska one can see that the leadership of

 8     Republika Srpska was prepared for an exchange of territories, and I have

 9     statements by General Mladic himself.  If it is important to the Court,

10     I'll read them out.

11             So you cannot put it this way.  The cities claim ready not

12     clearly defined.  Boundaries are contested.  They will perhaps change

13     during the conflict.

14        Q.   Sir, now Saric then says, turning to page 3 in the B/C/S and I'll

15     come back to that point in a moment:  "However, as for Sarajevo, whether

16     there will be life in it or not, that is a big question that nobody in

17     the world can answer."

18             And then a few lines below:  "Well, there is such psychosis and

19     tension there that is questionable whether it is going to be Vukovar or

20     not."

21             Now at this point, late April 1992, Sarajevo was already being

22     shelled by Bosnian Serb forces; right?

23        A.   No.  Sarajevo was shelled by regular units and they were

24     attacking the Yugoslav People's Army, irregular unconstitutionally armed

25     units of the two parties, HDZ and SDA.  Those are facts that you have in

Page 42040

 1     every history textbook.  I'm surprised you don't know that.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, would you refrain from laughing or

 4     whatever, and remain silent and listen carefully.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 14712.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, you're speaking aloud.  This is the last

 8     warning.

 9             Please proceed.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I continue answering the

11     previous question?  Or shall I stop here?  I have something to add.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... sir?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it in the hands of Mr. Traldi.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Turning to page 2 in the English only.  And this is a 2nd

17     Military District report from 8th of April 1992.  Towards the bottom of

18     the page in the B/C/S, under 4th Corps, we read:  "During the afternoon,

19     the members of Territorial Defence from Pale municipality opened mortar

20     fire on the sector Vratnik and on the old part of the city of Sarajevo.

21     After the intervention of the command of the 2nd Military District, the

22     fire stopped."

23             Now, this is an example of the urban core of Sarajevo being

24     shelled by Bosnian Serb forces before the conversation we described;

25     right?

Page 42041

 1        A.   No.  And I can explain.  You have specific facts about attacks

 2     from all infantry weapons on the Yugoslav People's Army precisely at that

 3     moment.

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... what we see here in the

 5     Yugoslav People's Army's report is that Bosnian Serb forces, to wit, the

 6     TO of Pale municipality, are shelling the old part of Sarajevo; right?

 7        A.   If you wish to take only that fragment from the whole of that

 8     situation, then the answer is yes.  I have no reason to doubt what a

 9     general of the Yugoslav People's Army says.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I tender 65 ter 20710 and 14712.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits P7728 and P7729 respectively,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P7728 and P7729 are admitted.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P4583.

16        Q.   Now, staying with Sarajevo, this is a recording or transcript of

17     the recording of the 50th Session of the Republika Srpska Assembly, held

18     in Sanski Most in 1995.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have page 354 in the English; 304 in the

20     B/C/S.

21        Q.   This is part of -- one of General Mladic's speeches.  And in the

22     middle of the page he says -- in the middle of the page in B/C/S:  "When

23     Markale was pounded, you know what happened then" --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where in the English.

25             MR. TRALDI:  The top of the page, end of the first paragraph,

Page 42042

 1     Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   "But I can say that never in my life was I condemned as I was for

 5     Markale."

 6             Now on page 61 of your Donia report in English and page 80 in

 7     B/C/S, you refer to Dr. Donia quoting this and you write:  "This may even

 8     have sounded to the author as an admission of guilt by General Mladic

 9     that VRS artillery had pounded Markale, causing two instances of

10     large-scale tragedy for the civilians of Sarajevo, but without the

11     missing part of the sentence, it is not possible to see what

12     General Mladic intended to say."

13             Did you bother to check whether any part of the sentence cited by

14     Dr. Donia was actually missing?

15        A.   I don't understand your question.  Could you make it clearer.

16     What you did want to ask?  You are asking many questions.  Could you put

17     a shorter, clearer question.  I would appreciate it.  Are you talking

18     about my report?  Then tell me the page.  You are putting a lot of

19     questions.  Please focus.

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I've given the page numbers

21     in both languages in your report.  I'm happy to do it again.  61 in the

22     English, 80 in the B/C/S.  And to help you understand what I'm put to you

23     at the moment, if we could keep the B/C/S on the screen and call up

24     page 248 in the English of Exhibit P2001, Dr. Donia's highlights report.

25        A.   Yes, please go ahead.  I'm ready.  I wanted to assist you to

Page 42043

 1     focus.  I don't need assistance.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, perhaps you could start with -- you criticised

 3     Dr. Donia for leaving out part of the sentence, the missing part of the

 4     sentence.  Would you first tell us exactly what part of the sentence

 5     Mr. Donia left out.  That was the simple gist, I think, of the first

 6     question.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  Certainly.

 8             You said it's page 80 in my report.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Yes.

11        A.   Could you tell me which paragraph?

12             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have page 80 in front of me.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  In the middle of the page, the end of that second

15     paragraph.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no such thing here.  I can

17     read to you what's written here.

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... two times the

19     word "Markale" in B/C/S.

20             Mr. Stojanovic.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Page 80.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, I

23     think we are looking at page 80 in Serbian and the Prosecutor meant page

24     80 in English, I suppose.

25             MR. TRALDI:  That's not correct.  There are not even 80 pages in

Page 42044

 1     the English version of the report.  It's page 80 in the Serbian.

 2        Q.   And, sir, you say, you refer to the quote that Judge Orie

 3     directed to you.  You say, without the missing part of the sentence a

 4     reader can't tell what General Mladic meant.

 5             What I'm putting to you is, if you look at the end of the second

 6     paragraph on the left side of your screen and you look at footnotes 317

 7     at the bottom on the right side of your screen, what you'll see is there

 8     is no missing part of the sentence; right?

 9        A.   Considering that what I have in front of me does not correspond

10     to that description, I should like to ask you to display this on the

11     screen so I can see it.  I'm looking at page 80 in my report and there is

12     no such thing.  In order to be able to answer, could I please see it on

13     the screen.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... before we move on, so we

15     don't have to call up every document repeatedly --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It could that be the witness has only -- and I have,

17     I think, one side of the screen, left-hand side of the screen is in

18     Cyrillic.

19             Do you have that before you?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  But what I have before me is

21     this document from Sanski Most.  It is not my report.  I have a printed

22     copy of my report here and there is no such thing on page 80.

23             I can speak on the basis of memory.  However, this is a serious

24     court and it makes it incumbent upon me to know exactly what I'm talking

25     about.

Page 42045

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have a Cyrillic text on your screen?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have Cyrillic but it's not my

 3     report.  Do you understand what I'm saying?  This is the document from

 4     Sanski Most.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

 5             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... understand what

 6     you are saying and the issue now is whether the transcript of the meeting

 7     of Sanski Most, what is missing -- what is the missing part which was not

 8     quoted by Mr. Donia, that's the first question.  Because if you blame him

 9     for not giving the full quote, then the first question is:  What is

10     missing and you have an opportunity to compare.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Uh-huh.  [In English] Okay.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please tell us what part of the sentence is

13     missing.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I agree to answer from memory

15     because I still cannot see the section that is being discussed.

16             MR. TRALDI: [Previous translation continues] ...

17             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm answering --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We are at this moment comparing the text.  You

20     criticised Dr. Donia for -- quotes a text, you say there is a missing

21     part, and we now give the original to you and the simple question is what

22     part was left out by Dr. Donia?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are saying that that's what I'm

24     saying.  I wish to answer your question but this is my text that is being

25     discussed and the text of Dr. Donia.  And the text that was shown to us.

Page 42046

 1     Please do show me my text and I will answer your question.

 2             Do you understand what I'm saying?  There are three documents

 3     that are being discussed.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 6        A.   May I.

 7        Q.   If we go one step at the time, while we've got this document on

 8     the screen, looking at the end of the second paragraph on your left.  On

 9     your screen, please, sir?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On your screen.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Sir, that's -- you're looking at the binder --

13        A.   Yes, yes, that's okay.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... paragraph on the left and

15     the bottom on the right, footnote 317, do you agree that the text is the

16     same?

17        A.   On the left-hand side, there is a text that is type written.

18     Just tell me which paragraph it is on the right-hand side?

19        Q.   On the left, it's end of the second paragraph, beginning [B/C/S

20     spoken] "kad su tucene Markale."

21             On the right, it's the bottom of the page, footnote 317,

22     beginning [B/C/S spoken] "kad su tucene Markale."

23        A.   Yes, that is all right.  That's the footnote.  Can I now see what

24     I said.  The Prosecutor is asking me about what I wrote.  So could you

25     please be so kind as to show me what it is that I wrote, or could you

Page 42047

 1     kindly tell me which page this is in my report.

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 3             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   While this is still on the screen, can you confirm that the text

 6     is the same or are you unwilling to do that?

 7        A.   Of course, of course, it's the same.  Two sentences are the same.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have D1369 MFI, page 61 in the English and 80

 9     in the B/C/S in e-court.

10             Sorry, the pages have changed from the version we initially

11     received.  Can we get page 83 in e-court.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  B/C/S, you mean.

13             MR. TRALDI:  In the B/C/S, yes.  And it will be at the top.

14        Q.   Now, you quote Dr. Donia referring to this.  You say:  "It may

15     have sounded like an admission of guilt."  You say:  "Without the missing

16     part of the sentence it's not possible to see what General Mladic

17     intended to say."

18             Do we agree now there's no missing part of the sentence?

19        A.   Before I answer the question, could you please show me in the

20     text itself, Dr. Donia's text.  Not the footnote.  Could you show me the

21     text itself of Dr. Donia, that page, and then I'm going answer your

22     question.

23        Q.   Why are you unable to answer the question now?

24        A.   Why are you not able to show me that page in the report of

25     Dr. Donia?

Page 42048

 1        Q.   Sir, I understand you might prefer to ask the questions, but the

 2     reason that you said there was a missing part of the sentence when, in

 3     fact, there isn't, is you didn't check this yourself; right?

 4        A.   No.  I can explain as well.

 5        Q.   Go on.

 6        A.   In the report of Dr. Donia entitled:  Important excerpts from the

 7     debate in the Assembly of Republika Srpska, there are many quotations

 8     that were taken out of context.  We didn't even discuss that here.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

10        A.   What does that mean?  That means --

11        Q.   I'm not inviting you to repeat other generalised criticisms.  I'm

12     asking you:  You made a criticism here that was wrong because you didn't

13     check the assembly session text yourself; right?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

15             It's not fair for the Prosecution to say this.  The witness asked

16     whether a further explanation is needed, and he gave a direct answer why

17     he does not accept such a position by the Prosecution explicitly and now

18     he is not allowed to explain.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the witness should first answer the question

20     and we -- let's go back to the basics.

21             We've seen that Dr. Donia in the footnote quoted a text.  You're

22     criticizing him for leaving out a part of the sentence.  You've now seen

23     the transcript of the meeting.  What part of the sentence is missing?

24     That's a simple question.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked to see the main body of the

Page 42049

 1     text that I used so that I could see that page, and that is what I

 2     haven't been able to see until now.

 3             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you have an

 4     opportunity to look at that during the next break.  If it brings you to

 5     further comments, fine; but now you should answer the question.

 6             The question is:  What part of the sentence is missing?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of this quotation that

 8     I provided here and on the basis of what was shown to me here, it doesn't

 9     seem that something is missing.  However, I say here that this statement

10     made by General Mladic may have sounded like an admission to the author.

11     Taking things out of context can lead us to different conclusions.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

14        A.   This ask a specific example of that kind of thing.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You're moving away from the questions.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have answered.

17             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... well.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.  We have now on the record that the

19     witness says that it seems that nothing is missing from that sentence.

20             Please proceed.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I repeat the last question of Mr. Traldi.

22             Did you check the -- the transcript of the assembly session

23     yourself?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read what is contained in

25     Dr. Donia's report, and that is contained therein.

Page 42050

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In -- that means you didn't check the original

 2     transcript of the assembly session.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was expected to provide an expert

 4     opinion on the report of Dr. Donia.  I analysed that document.  I read

 5     the reports from some sessions, and I haven't read reports from other

 6     sessions.  As a historian, you cannot --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... did you check

 8     this part of the assembly session transcript?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This part, no.  No.  This part, no.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How were you able to say a part of the speech of

11     Mr. Mladic was missing in the -- in the report of Mr. Donia without

12     checking the original?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  Could this page please

14     be shown to me --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So not the footnote but that page

17     in Dr. Donia's report itself and then I will answer the question.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I'm not interested in that anymore.  You have

19     answered the question.  You didn't check yourself.

20             Mr. Traldi.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Because you didn't read the assembly sessions yourself, you don't

23     know whether particular excerpts accurately reflect the tone of discourse

24     in the assembly, do you?

25        A.   No, I can explain that.

Page 42051

 1        Q.   And so when Dr. Donia selects excerpts on the basis of years of

 2     comprehensive study of the assembly sessions and you say they might be

 3     taken out of context, he is the one who is actually an expert on the

 4     context, not you; right?

 5        A.   Yes, the conclusion is that he is making a mistake but I really

 6     cannot believe that you are asking me this.  Anybody can answer this

 7     question for you.  No one needs to be a historian to do that.  Do allow

 8     me to answer.  May I?

 9        Q.   You've said some things --

10        A.   Please go ahead.

11        Q.   If you'd like to answer the question directly, I'd appreciate it.

12        A.   Imagine records from the British Parliament.  They're called

13     Hansard and they've been published for centuries.  And imagine if

14     sections of speeches made by MPs were to be taken out of context --

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues]

16        A.   The entirety of their speeches -- yes.

17        Q.   What I'm putting to you is, let's take Hansard as an example.  If

18     you had studied those records of the British Parliament for 20 years and

19     you were saying that these are the excerpts that tell you what they were

20     talking about and what their policy was, you'd be doing that on the basis

21     of study, conclusions, expertise.  If some guy came along and said, Well,

22     these might be taken out of context without reading the whole transcript,

23     that person's opinion wouldn't be worth very much, would it?

24        A.   The interpretation I received here was "some guy."  If that is

25     correct interpretation.  I'm a historian and I was asked to come here as

Page 42052

 1     an expert.  I --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... witness, try to

 3     understand the gist of the question.  And don't lose yourself in marginal

 4     matters.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  These are marginal

 6     matters.

 7             So your position is that from the outset we should appreciate the

 8     knowledge and experience of Dr. Donia.  That cannot be the position of an

 9     impartial observer.  He could have studied something for 20 years and

10     reached erroneous conclusions.  His report shows that he is partial and

11     that he is avoiding sources, and that's my answer to your question.

12        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you one question.  The quote which is

14     found in your report ends with three dots after the word "Markale."  I

15     see that it's both true for the B/C/S version and for the English

16     version.  Were you under the impression when you wrote this down that

17     something else was following?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And did you then check whether that was true or not?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's why I kindly asked to have a

21     look at the main text, so I could see what it says there, and

22     persistently the text is not being shown to me.  You understand?  I need

23     to see what it was that I looked at, when I looked at the main body of

24     the report.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You have an opportunity to -- I take it that the

Page 42053

 1     relevant page can be given to the witness.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  We'll arrange for that, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You will get that during the break and you can look

 4     at it.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Now what General Mladic had said next was:  "Mr. President, I've

 8     never, because I'm a professional soldier, I respect my profession

 9     because of the people who have to follow it.  I have never turned off the

10     gas in Sarajevo nor was the gas turned off on my orders without you

11     knowing it."

12             Now that's an admission that Mladic ordered the gas turned off in

13     Sarajevo.  He's just saying Karadzic knew too; right?

14        A.   No.  He says here, "I never turned off."  "Never turned off."

15     That's what it says here.

16        Q.   "Without you knowing it."  That means:  When I did it, you knew

17     about it.  Right?

18        A.   No, you cannot interpret it that way, this sentence.  We cannot

19     know what the author of the sentence wanted to say.  You have to ask him.

20     I'm not a psychoanalyst.  I'm a historian.

21        Q.   So now you don't know what the right interpretation is; right?

22        A.   I'm not sure that I understood your question, but the answer is

23     no.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P431, page 38 in English and 32 in

25     B/C/S.

Page 42054

 1        Q.   This will be General Mladic's speech at the 16th Assembly.  He

 2     says at the bottom of the page in English:  "We should not say we will

 3     destroy Sarajevo.  We need Sarajevo."

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Where is it in B/C/S.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I believe it's at the top, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   "We are not going to say that we are going to destroy the power

 7     supply pylons or turn off the water supply.  No.  Because that would get

 8     America out of its seat.  But, gentlemen, please, fine, well, one day

 9     there is no water at all" --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters have not found the place.

11     Could we please have a little bit of time.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please locate exactly from where you are

13     reading and perhaps repeat the reading, Mr. Traldi.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Approximately the tenth line from the bottom in

15     English.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Does that suffice for the interpreters?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Working on it.

18             Found it.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   I'll start from the beginning.

21             "We should not say we will destroy Sarajevo.  We need Sarajevo.

22     We are not going to say that we are going to destroy the power supply

23     pylons or turn off the water supply.  No.  Because that would get America

24     out of its seat.  But, gentlemen, please, fine, well, one day there is no

25     water at all in Sarajevo, what is it we do not know, damage, we should

Page 42055

 1     fix it, no, we will fix it, slowly.  And the same with the electrical

 2     power."

 3             So what General Mladic is declaring, the day he was appointed

 4     commander is the intents to manipulate the supply of basic humanitarian

 5     needs to the population of Sarajevo; right?

 6        A.   No.  I can explain.

 7        Q.   Go ahead.

 8        A.   Mr. Traldi, you are doing the same thing that Mr. Donia did in

 9     his report --

10        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

11        A.   -- this report of Dr. Donia.

12        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

13        A.   May I proceed?

14        Q.   -- is one question at a time and I'd ask you to answer those

15     questions.  Are you able to do that?

16        A.   Of course, of course.  I don't know if you're able to put one

17     single question.

18        Q.   I read you --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, now you stop commenting on whether

20     Mr. Traldi puts the right question or not.  Mr. Stojanovic is in a

21     position to object to any question which is unclear or not.  It's not for

22     you.  If you don't understand the question, you can say, I don't

23     understand the question.  But here you're simply invited to tell us why

24     you think that this text is not about the manipulation of the basic

25     supplies, as Mr. Traldi put it to you.

Page 42056

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I respond?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because already in the next

 4     sentence that Mr. Traldi has omitted, there is a reference to electricity

 5     and water being turned off for the JNA.  It's the very next sentence.

 6     Same method.  Just like Donia.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   Yeah.  The next sentence Donia -- the next sentence Mladic says,

 9     "Zadar and Sibenik and Split, they disconnected the army's power supply.

10     The army had none for six months, but I told them while I'm here, you

11     will not get it and they didn't, apart from when I felt like letting them

12     have some."

13             So as you do with Dr. Donia's reports what you've just done is

14     grasp for a different explanation but, in fact, the JNA barracks that you

15     were referring to, one, were in Croatia, and, two, were used by

16     General Mladic as he brags about here as a pretext for cutting off

17     utilities to cities in Croatia.  Right?

18        A.   Mr. Traldi, that was in Yugoslavia, not Croatia.  At the time

19     Yugoslavia existed as an internationally recognised state and they are

20     attacking the regular army, the JNA.  I cannot believe you're putting

21     this question to me.

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

23             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... witness, you

24     apparently are mixing up two things.  First, what Mr. Mladic said he

25     would do, which is understood by Mr. Traldi as manipulating the supply of

Page 42057

 1     basic needs; second - and that's a totally different question - whether

 2     in history or on the basis of what happened elsewhere that there may have

 3     been good reasons for doing that or it can be explained why one would

 4     wish to do that.  But we are now focussing now, first of all, on the

 5     first question, that is, what Mr. Mladic said, whether that is an example

 6     of manipulating the supply of basic needs.  That's the question.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat:  I'm a historian, I'm not

 8     a psychologist.  Manipulation, non-manipulation, you have to ask the

 9     person who said that.  If you want me to confirm that what is written

10     here is written her, I can confirm that.  But you don't need a historian

11     for that, you can get anybody who can read Cyrillic, regardless of

12     context.

13             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is context that a historian is

15     supposed to deal with.  Yes, that is what is written here, yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  For context you first have to know context is given

17     for what and that is what Mr. Traldi asked you about.

18             Let's move on.  If you continue to avoid the questions and to

19     rather refer to the background where the questions are about the core of

20     what is written, this may devaluate your evidence and you should be aware

21     of that.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Two sentences later, Mladic says:  "Therefore, we have to wisely

25     tell the world it was they who were shooting, hit the transmission line

Page 42058

 1     and the power went off.  They were shooting at the water supply

 2     facilities.  There was a power" --

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to the next page in English.

 4        Q.   -- "cut at such and such a place, we are doing our best repairing

 5     it.  This is what diplomacy is."

 6             Now, one of the bits of context that would be interesting for a

 7     statement like this from a commander is orders from his immediate

 8     subordinates to carry out of the same policy; right?

 9        A.   Yes, that could be the context.  But the context of this

10     statement is also the attack against Serbs and against the JNA or,

11     rather, at this moment, the Army of Republika Srpska.  That is the

12     primary context.  The war had started.  The endangerment of the Serb

13     areas of Sarajevo.  And, of course, firing at the JNA or, rather, the

14     Army of Republika Srpska.  That's the context.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter - and I'll be very quick with

16     this document, Your Honour - 06129.  I was perhaps a little quick.

17     06129.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, low volume.  Mr. Mladic, low volume.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   We see a Drina Corps order from the 31st of May, 1993.  The

21     deputy commander Colonel Skocajic is relaying a verbal order from the

22     corps commander, Colonel Zivanovic, to demolish the water tower and tank

23     in the area of Zeleni Jadar, the water supply system for Srebrenica.  He

24     writes:  "Since this has not been done so far, this task is to be

25     executed immediately, by June 1, 1993 at the latest, and it is to be

Page 42059

 1     presented to the public as if Muslim forces did it."

 2             Now that's the same policy we saw Mladic saying and calling

 3     diplomacy, destroying the water supply in the surrounded area and

 4     presenting it as if the Muslims had done it to themselves; right?

 5        A.   No.  There, you have the statement of General Mladic in the

 6     assembly.  Here, you have an order by a colonel who gave a verbal order

 7     to a lieutenant-colonel and -- Lieutenant-Colonel Urosevic.  You said you

 8     would show us this order.  You showed us a verbal order of a colonel to

 9     the lieutenant-colonel.  It's unbelievable how you connect these things,

10     Mr. Traldi.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tender the document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 06129 that will be Exhibit P7730,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

16             I'm really puzzled by your last answer, Witness.  Are you saying

17     that what was said in that assembly session, that is, doing A, saying

18     that someone else did it or that you didn't do it, is not similar to what

19     we find here in a still military context, doing A, saying that someone

20     else did it.  That is, just lying about what you did.  Do you see that

21     there's some corresponding elements in what was said in the assembly

22     meeting and here, as far as the content, the gist of it is?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a similarity, there are

24     corresponding elements, et cetera.  This is not proof.

25             I did not say that this was a corresponding element or a

Page 42060

 1     similarity.  I said, in principle, people -- things can be similar.  But

 2     this is not evidence.  It's not an order by General Mladic.  You have his

 3     words in the assembly, and you have one colonel and one

 4     lieutenant-colonel.  No, this is no proof.  No, no.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, don't bother about what is evidence of

 6     what, because you are here just to answer the questions.  And whether

 7     it's evidence or not, I think you should leave that, after we've heard

 8     the parties on it, to us.

 9             We take a break.  You may follow the usher.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And could the witness be provided with the relevant

12     portion of Dr. Donia's report.  And if you would have the number for us

13     again so that we can look at it on our screens as well.

14             MR. TRALDI:  It's P2001.  And the reason I called up the footnote

15     in the English is the B/C/S is across two pages which I'll track down

16     now.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll be able to follow if there's any

18     comment from the witness.

19             MR. TRALDI:  It's highlight 317 in both versions, for ease of

20     reference.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But, of course, a footnote always refers to

22     the main text, and that's what the witness may want to have a look at.

23             We take a break, and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

Page 42061

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Because I put shortly on the record the following.

 2             It's an issue pertaining -- pertinent to the testimony of

 3     Savo Strbac.

 4             In the interests of transparency, the Chamber informs the parties

 5     that an article authored by witness Savo Strbac, entitled, "How I

 6     testified for Mladic" has come to the Chamber's attention.  This article

 7     was published in print and online by the Serbian news outlet Vecernje

 8     Novosti on 19 November, 2015.  The Chamber leaves it to the parties as to

 9     whether there should be any follow-up on the point.

10             But if we became aware of it then I think it would be appropriate

11     for you to know that we were.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 32544.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I may say something?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You may say something.  Keep it brief.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've looked at what has been given

17     me, and I can tell you my opinion.  I absolutely stand by what I wrote in

18     my report concerning that statement of General Mladic in the assembly.

19     I've read the relevant part.  I stand by what I've written, and thank you

20     very much for showing it to me.  It's only appropriate to discuss it.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm a bit confused.  Because earlier you said

22     there was no missing part of the sentence and in your report you say a

23     part of the sentence is missing.  Now, to what extent do you still say

24     there's a part missing, of the sentence.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Allow me to explain.  It's about

Page 42062

 1     the three dots that you mentioned.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... three dots,

 3     yes, please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.

 5             I have before me, Page 184 of the report by Dr. Donia.  That's

 6     the page in his text in B/C/S, or in Serbian.  It's 135, page 135 there

 7     is a footnote.  I don't think you have the opportunity to see it now but

 8     it would be good for you to look at it.  What it looks like in the report

 9     by Dr. Donia.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we have access on our computers to the

11     report at this moment.

12             So please proceed.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mm-hm.  So once again, page 184 in

14     B/C/S, 135 in English, the footnote.

15             What is this about, in fact?  Look at how Dr. Donia quoted the

16     statement by Mladic.  It runs counter to the basic rules of the

17     profession of historian.  If you are able to look at it now, please look

18     at it.  It's fragment 317.  It says:  "When Markale was targeted, you

19     know all what happened, but I was never in my life criticized like then."

20     And then three dots.  Those are the three dots you asked me about.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I see your point.  You repeated that, and you

22     concluded from the fact that there were, as a matter of fact, in the

23     original report four dots - not three but that's a detail - that you

24     thought if he quotes it this way, there must be something else.  He left

25     that out.  And without checking, you just concluded that what was left

Page 42063

 1     out, which finally is not left out, that you concluded that that missing

 2     part would shed a different light on what he said.

 3             Is that -- that you are blaming Dr. Donia for adding the dots and

 4     that you fully, professionally, dealt with that by not checking the

 5     original source and concluding that what was missing, which is not

 6     missing, would have changed the meaning of it?  I have no other way of

 7     understanding if you draw our attention to the dots.

 8             Please -- when I'm wrong, please briefly explain why I am wrong.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every profession has its own clear

10     rules.  When you are citing a source, if you put three dots - there are

11     three dots here, and I'm speaking about the B/C/S version - that means

12     you left something out.  These are rules of the profession.  Each

13     profession has its own strict rules.  They were not observed here.

14             And just very briefly, a reader who reads this -- and you will

15     notice in the English version which I also have before me, the next

16     paragraph begins with quotation marks - that's the English version - and

17     when the next paragraph happens, that means that something is really

18     missing.  So what is the conclusion?  A reader reading this in this case,

19     me -- yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... let me stop you

21     there.  It's very clear that quoting something with dots where nothing

22     follows, you pointed out that that's against the rules of your

23     profession.

24             Now, my next question would be is it within the rules of your

25     profession without knowing what was left out, without even checking the

Page 42064

 1     original source that to criticise that the meaning would you quite

 2     different with the left-out part, is that within the rules of your

 3     profession?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it does.  Because --

 5             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, and I can explain

 7     that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think that you explained that you didn't

 9     check the original source and you say that's within the rules of your

10     profession.  That's fine.

11             Let's move on.

12             Please proceed.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that was not my explanation.

14     Excuse me.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Sir, this is a 29 May 1992 "New York Times" article entitled;

18     Serbian gunners pound Sarajevo.

19             It begins by stating:  "Defying international threats of

20     sanctions against Belgrade, Serbian forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina

21     pounded Sarajevo with artillery and rocket fire early today in the

22     heaviest bombardment the capital of the war-torn republic has faced, and

23     kept up the shelling throughout the day, officials and witnesses there

24     said."

25             Now, you mentioned the shelling on Vase Miskina Street on the

Page 42065

 1     27th of May in your report but you do not mention this shelling; right?

 2        A.   Donia meticulously noted down all the shellings.  There was no

 3     need for me to do it.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the record, the article is from the 29th of

 6     May, published on the 30th of May.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             Could we have 65 ter 33103.

 9        Q.   Now, this is a Bosnian MUP investigative file for shelling on 28

10     May 1992 at 2355 hours at Dzemala Bijedica Street, number 78.  We see

11     from the table of contents it includes the death certificate.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have page 3 in both versions.  This is

13     Official Note from the file.  The note states in pertinent part in the

14     second paragraph:  "On 28 May 1992, at 2355 hours, Gacanin, Edina has

15     noticed a huge lightning coming from the direction of Lukavica towards

16     her window, after which a tremendous blow was heard at the corner of the

17     wall between the kitchen and dining-room, following the tremendous

18     detonation in the corridor as a consequence of which a big hole was

19     created, through which Edina fell down into the apartment underneath."

20             And it said -- it says at the end she learned later that her

21     neighbour, Simo Sigud, 74 years old, died.

22             Now I have two questions.  First, Lukavica was held by the VRS in

23     May 1992; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And second, this is an example of the indiscriminate shelling of

Page 42066

 1     civilian areas in Sarajevo that caused the suffering that you referred to

 2     in your report?

 3        A.   Yes.  But this is completely irrelevant to the subject of my

 4     expertise, and I can explain why.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 33102.

 6        Q.   This is a 26 February 1995 Bosnian MUP Novo Sarajevo report on

 7     activity in the area of Velesici since the start of the war.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 2 in the B/C/S; 3 in the English.

 9        Q.   In the middle of the page in the B/C/S, we see an entry for the

10     28th of May, 1992.  We see:  "Between 2200 and 0600 hours the Velesici

11     area was shelled from the aggressor's positions at Mrkovici, at which

12     time there was significant material damage to facilities and Salko Fatkic

13     suffered minor injures."  Mrkovici was also held by the VRS in May of

14     1992; right?

15        A.   Correct.  And this is an another irrelevant document from Muslim

16     sources.  I'm not sure that you have read my report, actually,

17     Mr. Traldi, because if you had read it, my main objection is systematic

18     use of sources from only one side.  I still am waiting for you to show a

19     document about the suffering of Serb people, rapes of women committed by

20     people like Caco, Dedo, Celo.  I expect that from you, Mr. Traldi, in the

21     interests of truth and justice.  I'm not sure you read my report.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I tender the last three documents, 32544, 33103, and

23     33102.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 32544 will be Exhibit P7731.

Page 42067

 1             65 ter number 33103 will be Exhibit P7732.

 2             And 33102 will be Exhibit P7733.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P7731 to P7733 are all three admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 03815.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, turning to the Serb-claimed areas of Sarajevo, you know

 6     there were massive Muslim departures from those areas during 1992 and

 7     1993; right?

 8        A.   Yes.  Just as Muslims kept Serbs in their part of Sarajevo by

 9     force, held them in private prisons and killed them.

10        Q.   Now, so this is a report from the Rajlovac Red Cross, 1993.  We

11     see it's filled out for Rajlovac.

12             Now, Rajlovac was one of the municipalities the Serbs had

13     established in the Sarajevo area; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And before the war, it was part of Novi Grad municipality; right?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   Now we see the latest information the Red Cross is reporting is

18     about 5.000 people live in Rajlovac, of which 98 per cent are Serbs.

19     This is an example of the massive departures of Muslims that we just

20     talked about; right?

21        A.   Certainly.  Just as Sarajevo, as a city, as a whole, was left by

22     157.000 Serbs after its so-called liberation.  I am waiting for you to

23     mention that too.  157.000 Serbs.  Thousands of Yugoslavs disappeared

24     from Sarajevo.  Where are they, Mr. Traldi?  Maybe Ghostbusters chased

25     them out?

Page 42068

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kovic, stop giving this kind of comment.  Answer

 2     the questions.  And I have one question for you before we continue.  If

 3     others - and that may well have happened and I'm serious about that - if

 4     others committed crimes, does that make crimes by another party any less

 5     a crime?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's a good question.  I am not

 7     contesting the crimes that were committed by Serbs.  Really not.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you then please refrain from -- we are not

 9     writing the history of the whole of the war.  We are called to have a

10     trial in which no doubt about that, where responsibility for an accused

11     has to be established or not.  You are insisting again and again and

12     again on that others committed crimes as well.  Not to say whether they

13     did or they did not, but that's perhaps as background sometimes of some

14     importance but that's not the core of this case.  I want you to

15     understand it, that we're not writing history of war but that we are

16     preparing a judgement, whatever that judgement will be, on an indictment

17     against one accused.

18             Would you please keep that in mind because that also shows

19     there's no need to again and again and again to draw the attention to the

20     crimes committed by others which may well be the case.  I'm not in any

21     way expressing myself or the Chamber is not expressing itself on that.

22     But there's no need at this moment.  And also you do not have to invite

23     Mr. Traldi to bring any opinion about what others did.  You apparently

24     have difficulties in understanding what a criminal trial is, so you are

25     hereby urged to refrain from such comments.

Page 42069

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   Now you mention in your Donia report the VRS quickly achieved the

 4     capture of [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something, please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... listen to the

 7     next question of Mr. Traldi and answer that question.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   You mention in your Donia report that the VRS quickly achieved

10     the capture of key military and industrial complexes in areas including

11     Rajlovac, we agree that you did not mention that when the VRS took over

12     Rajlovac non-Serbs, large numbers of non-Serbs were expelled; right?

13        A.   That is a irrelevant question.  It was not the subject of my

14     report.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  What is an irrelevant question or not is not for you

16     to decide.  Please answer the question.

17             If you can.  If you can't, please tell us you can't answer the

18     question.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a historian, and you are saying

20     I should not be speaking about history.  You invited me as a historian,

21     as an expert.  This question can be answered by someone who is not a

22     historian.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the Defence has called you as an expert

24     witness.  Listen to the next question of Mr. Traldi and answer it.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can answer the previous question first.

Page 42070

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You said I can refuse to answer a

 2     question, Your Honour.  That's what you said.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't say that.  I say that if you can't answer a

 4     question [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... right.

 6     I can't answer.

 7             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... [Previous translation

 8     continues] ... the only reason why you can't answer a question is because

 9     you do not know the answer.  If that is what you are telling us, please

10     make that clear.  Is it that you can't answer it because you have no

11     knowledge, direct or indirect?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot contest that parts of the

13     city of Sarajevo controlled by the Serbs were left by a certain amount of

14     population.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Those people were expelled; right?

18        A.   I cannot answer this question.  I was not there.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 22933.

20        Q.   Now this shows -- this is a decision on the appointment of the

21     municipal commission for the 1993 census in Vogosca.  You're aware the

22     Republika Srpska did a census in 1993; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 22935.

25        Q.   Now this is a table that was put together in the Karadzic case on

Page 42071

 1     the basis of 65 ter 02559, the 1991 census, and 65 ter 22934, the 1993

 2     Vogosca census results.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  And for the Defence the relevant part of 65 ter

 4     02559 is pages 44 through 47 in the B/C/S.

 5        Q.   Looking at just a couple of entries here on the first page, we

 6     see second, D. Vogosca, 1991, 124 Muslims; 1993, just a line.  No

 7     representation of any Muslims.  Kremis, 1991, 59; 1993, none.

 8     Krivoglavci, 1991, 61; 1993, zero.  Semizovac, we see, turning to page 2

 9     in the English, 1991, 427; 1993, 16.  And there are other examples,

10     Svrake 1991, 1036; 1993, zero.  This is another example of the

11     large-scale flight by Muslims from the Serb-claimed areas of Sarajevo;

12     right?

13        A.   No.  I can explain.

14        Q.   Go on.

15        A.   This is evidence that there is no Muslim population in these

16     places anymore.  This is not evidence of ethnic cleansing.  These are

17     numbers, tables, showing that these people are no longer there.  And one

18     more thing.  If I may, you said Blagovac in 1991, there were 16 Muslims

19     and I think you said something else, 160 or something.  16, in fact, and

20     then in 1993, none.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you introduced yourself the ethnic

22     cleansing.  That was not part of the question.  That was flight of

23     Muslims and apparently you are defending or you are responding to matters

24     which are not put to you in the question.

25             Would you carefully listen to the question and the way in which

Page 42072

 1     Mr. Traldi phrases it and then answer that question rather than a

 2     question you may have on your mind but which was not put to you.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender the last three documents:  65

 5     ter 03815, 22933, and 22935.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  03814 will be Exhibit P7734.

 8             22933 will be Exhibit P7735.

 9             And 22935 will be Exhibit P7736.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P7734 through P7736 are admitted into evidence.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 06017.

12        Q.   As it comes up, sir, you know one of the ways that Muslims were

13     removed from the Serb-claimed municipalities around Sarajevo was through

14     exchanges; right?

15        A.   Yes, there were exchanges.  Of course, I do not accept your

16     interpretation, but, yes, there were exchanges.

17        Q.   Well, the results of the exchanges was Muslims who had previously

18     lived in the Serb-claimed areas now lived in the urban core of Sarajevo;

19     right?  One of the results of the exchanges.

20        A.   Yes, I can agree with that.

21        Q.   Now this is a letter from the Bosnian exchange commission chair

22     Filip Vuckovic.  He mentions a proposal for discussion on further

23     exchanges.  He says several have been carried out.  It refers to the

24     Vrbanija bridge, Brijesca, Ilidza.  I'm just waiting for the transcript,

25     sir.

Page 42073

 1             Those are all places in the Sarajevo area; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now turning to page 5 in the English, and I'm afraid we don't

 4     have the full document in the B/C/S so I'll come back to it.  Can we have

 5     65 ter 20851.

 6             Now this is an intercepted conversation between Momcilo Mandic

 7     and Momcilo Krajisnik dated 26th June 1992.  Turning to page 3 in both

 8     languages, Mandic says, "There this Vuckovic, a member of the youth

 9     organisation, a Serb, who is criticizing us because we have 400 prisoners

10     here, you know?"

11             And Krajisnik asks if he's a Communist and what he wants.

12             And Mandic says:  "He is the president of that exchange

13     commission."

14             Krajisnik asks:  "Their commission?"

15             Mandic says:  "Yes."

16             And Krajisnik asks:  "And what is it that he wants?"

17             And Mandic says:  "War prisoners, no, they are ex for them.

18     They're hardly interested in people, they are interested in ammunition

19     and meat and now we let those women and children go to Vrbanija, to go to

20     their own people, he says that's ethnic cleansing what we do ..."

21             That's a reflection of Vrbanija, one of the locations we saw in

22     Vuckovic's letter being a place that women and children were exchanged in

23     the urban core of Sarajevo; right?

24        A.   No.  I have to explain something here.

25        Q.   Go on.

Page 42074

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You may explain, but only explain what is an answer

 2     to the question.  Don't explain things which are not included in the

 3     question.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The source that is being used here

 5     is an intercepted telephone conversation.  As a historian, I have to ask

 6     about the source.  This is typed up.  From the point of view of history

 7     as a science, this document is not relevant and --

 8             MR. TRALDI: [Previous translation continues] ...

 9             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, please

10     answer the question.  This Chamber will deal with any authenticity matter

11     that is relevant for us.

12             Please answer the question.  And if you say you can't answer

13     that, then -- because you have no knowledge of it, but don't be bothered

14     about authenticity.  Because that's for the parties to raise and for the

15     Chamber to decide.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were exchanges of

17     civilians, and there were opinions amongst the Serbs that the Presidency

18     and Alija Izetbegovic do not really care very much about the lives of

19     their civilians, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You have --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I confirm what we read out just

22     now, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... about civilians.

24     Women and children?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm that.  There were

Page 42075

 1     exchanges of civilians.  I cannot confirm that.  Civilians were

 2     exchanged.  That's a fact.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 20851.  Ms. Stewart

 4     has the CD.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P7737, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   We saw a reference to prisoners.  You know but don't mention in

10     your report that large numbers of non-Serb civilians were held prisoner

11     in the Serb-claimed areas around Sarajevo; right?

12        A.   That is irrelevant for my report.  There were prisoners on both

13     sides, yes, including prisoners that were held by Serbs, yes.

14        Q.   Including large numbers of non-Serb civilians in those areas;

15     right?

16        A.   Yes, yes.  There's no reason to contest that.  The number?  Well,

17     the number hasn't been ascertained.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 15189.

19        Q.   Now, this is a 21 December 1992 SRK command telegram order to

20     Butmir KP Dom.  That's one of the places that those civilians were

21     detained; right?

22        A.   I cannot confirm that.  I mean, I see the document in front of

23     me.

24        Q.   Now it says:  "Pursuant to the order you ought to seek the

25     correspond commander's approval prior to every exchange of prisoners of

Page 42076

 1     war."

 2             If we could have -- sorry, just very briefly we see it refers to

 3     an order of the Republika Srpska minister of justice.  If we could have

 4     65 ter 12812.  It gives the number 1/2-243.

 5             Here we see an order, number 1/2-243 from the minister of justice

 6     of Republika Srpska, to all penal and correctional institutions.  An

 7     order instructing the personnel of the main facilities of penal and

 8     correctional institutions housing and guarding prisoners of war not to

 9     carry out exchanges without the prior approval of the president of a

10     competent high court and the commands of the corps in charge.

11             Did you consider it relevant for your report that the VRS had

12     control of the Muslims who were detained in the Sarajevo area, that they

13     couldn't be exchanged without the corps commander's approval?

14        A.   Robert Donia writes about all of that.  There was no need for me

15     to go back to these topics.  That was covered in his report.  You have

16     the report of your expert historian that you retained.  Why would I write

17     about that?

18        Q.   I take it you don't dispute any of that; right?

19        A.   I'm able to read the text that is in front of me.  That's the way

20     it was written.  That is what is written there.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that wasn't the question.  The question is

22     whether you dispute that the VRS had control over the Muslims who were

23     detained, they couldn't be exchanged without the corps commander's

24     approval.  That was the question, whether you contest that.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can accept that, yes.  Yes,

Page 42077

 1     there's no reason -- yes, there's no reason for me to contest that.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 03797.

 3        Q.   Now, this is a list from the VRS commission for exchange and

 4     release labelled Kula prison list.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  If we turn to the end of the document.

 6        Q.   We see Captain Bulajic's name, the head of the commission for

 7     exchange, and in the bottom right, the commander of the SRK,

 8     General Galic.

 9             Does that refresh your recollection as to whether Kula was one of

10     the places that the Muslims were detained in the Sarajevo area?

11        A.   There were several places where civilians were detained on the

12     Serb and on the Muslim side.  In Muslim prisons there weren't any lists

13     of this kind.  This shows that there was some organisation here as

14     opposed to the private prisons that the Muslims had.  So I can confirm

15     what I see before me.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender, first, the Vuckovic letter

17     for which we've now fixed the upload that was referred to in the

18     intercepted conversation, that's 65 ter 06017, and then this series of

19     the last three documents.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that letter the one where you said we don't have

21     the complete document and therefore we'll move on.  Did you intend to put

22     any question to the witness in relation to that?

23             MR. TRALDI:  The link I was going to draw was the link between

24     the location mentioned, the Vrbanija bridge in the letter and the

25     location referred to as well as the author, Mr. Vuckovic, who is then

Page 42078

 1     referred to in the intercept.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And you don't need the witness for that.  That's

 3     your ...

 4             MR. TRALDI: [Microphone not activated] put to him that it's the

 5     same person and the same location, but I think --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  06017 will be Exhibit P7738.

 8             65 ter number 15189 will be Exhibit P7739.

 9             65 ter 12812 will be Exhibit P7740.

10             And 65 ter 03797 will be Exhibit P7741.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections raised by the

12     Defence, P7738 through P7741 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   I'm going to turn to a different topic, sir.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 07871.  I'm sure it was my fault.

16        Q.   Now, this is a diary of the ICFY negotiating team from April and

17     the beginning of May 1993.

18             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have page 46 in the English, 82 in the

19     B/C/S.

20        Q.   This reflects a meeting on the 24th of April, beginning at

21     9.00 a.m. with the Bosnian Serbs.  Refers to Karadzic, Mladic, Krajisnik.

22             Turning to page 48 in the English, 86 in the B/C/S.  And if I

23     could just have a second.  We don't have ... the B/C/S of the part that I

24     was interested in.

25             We do now.

Page 42079

 1             We see that the author - the Chamber has received evidence that

 2     that's one of the negotiators named Herbert Okun records, "RM wants

 3     entire west bank of Drina."

 4             I asked you this morning if Bijeljina and Zvornik were Serb

 5     claimed areas, and you said, well, there were strategic objectives but

 6     some territories could be exchanged.  The truth is Mladic's position was

 7     the entire west side of the Drina had to be Serb; right?

 8        A.   No, that was not the position of General Mladic, necessarily.  I

 9     can read his statements here for you.  Just as you read General Mladic's

10     statements, I have some statements here too, those that are contained in

11     Dr. Donia's reports, and they testified to something completely

12     different.  These are parts of his speeches from the assembly not this

13     kind of source.  I can read it out for you, I can tell you about it.  I

14     can tell you that General Mladic says, Let us not go to places that are

15     not our own.  We are just going to defend our own homes.  This is a

16     defensive war.

17             As for towns themselves, I already said that within those six

18     strategic objectives that you mentioned yesterday it is quite clear that

19     borders were not clearly marked.  They were open and that they would be

20     the result precisely of such talks as those referred to here.

21             As for this source that you showed here, if I'm not mistaken,

22     this is an American negotiator.  A moment ago on this that you showed us,

23     it was obvious that Vance and Owen were under enormous pressure from the

24     U.S.A. to give the Muslims as much as possible, so I have to say that

25     this source is a very highly contested one as far as I'm concerned.  This

Page 42080

 1     is an American negotiator.  You will correct me if I am wrong.  This is,

 2     indeed, an interested party, so allow me to challenge the objectivity.

 3             As for General Mladic's statements, they are contained in the

 4     report of Dr. Treanor, these are important speeches and I can show you

 5     this and can you have it there so General Mladic says, No, we're just

 6     going to defend what is ours.  Even the Army of China could not attain

 7     the objectives that you have set out here.  So what you quoted yesterday,

 8     the statement of General Mladic from his interview that is one thing.  By

 9     the way it is not called Nin as you called it.  It is called Nin.  One

10     should know a bit of Serbian.

11             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask that this document be marked for

12     identification.  We'll separate out this meeting and ask that this

13     meeting be admitted.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, could you please reserve a number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, the number reserved will be

16     Exhibit P7742.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is reserved for an excerpt still to be uploaded.

18             Witness, is there any specific reason why you contest the

19     accuracy of what Mr. Okun did write down on this page, apart from that

20     you don't trust him as a -- as a part of a negotiating team which had its

21     own interests?  But do you have any reason to say, Well, this is -- he

22     wrote this down for himself but he wrote down something which was not

23     said?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to respond to you as a

25     historian.  That's how I was brought here.  These are his notes.  And the

Page 42081

 1     United States is a highly interested party in this war.  They even became

 2     a warring party once they went to war.  That's what it's all it's about.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what you told already and then I asked you a

 4     different question.  Do you have any reason why, in this notebook, which

 5     are -- is supposed to serve the memory of Mr. Okun, why he would have

 6     written down here something what was not said?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Quite simply, that's one of the

 8     rules of the craft.  Just likes Zimmermann's notes.  I can believe it but

 9     not necessarily.  I can say, yes, I agree, but I have to keep a certain

10     distance.  Do you understand that?  It is one of the rules of the craft.

11     Each and every profession and job has rules of its own.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Although it's not an answer to my question, it's

13     clear that you do not have any specific reason why it would be not be

14     accurate what he wrote down here.

15             Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 02368.  That will be page 42 in

17     the English and 43 in the B/C/S, first paragraph.

18        Q.   Now this is part of the transcript of the 23rd Session of the RS

19     Assembly dated the 19th of January, 1993.  Did you ever look at that

20     session in preparing your report?

21        A.   My task was to read Robert Donia's report and I carried out my

22     task very conscientiously and very carefully.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not an answer to the question.  If you continue

24     to refuse answer questions, we have to consider what to do with that.

25     The question simply was whether you consulted this transcript of this

Page 42082

 1     meeting.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No, I did not.  Just show me

 3     the date then and let's see where and when it was held.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  So on the one hand you say, no, I didn't consult it.

 5     At the same time you do not know what date it is.

 6             Mr. Traldi, what date is it.  We could go, perhaps, to the

 7     relevant page and then we put the question again.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Traldi already explained it to you:  19th of

 9     January, 1993.  You should have listened to the question.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have not seen the

11     transcript.  No, I haven't.  I saw what I found in the report.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   Now, this is part of the remarks by Rajko Djukic.  Do you know

15     what his position was?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Now, the Chamber has evidence that he was the SDS co-ordinator

18     for the Birac region and president of their executive committee.  He says

19     in the second paragraph:  "It is clear to everyone that there can no be

20     Serbian state nor a community of Serbian states nor life or prospects for

21     the Serbian people without Podrinje from Foca to Bijeljina."

22             This is an example of, again, the whole Drina area being claimed

23     by the Serbs; right?

24        A.   You quoted the statement of a gentleman who came from a small

25     part of Republika Srpska who was in charge of that particular part.  He

Page 42083

 1     does not represent that group that makes key decisions.  This is just one

 2     statement made in the assembly.  You have to make a distinction between

 3     decision-makers and those who are at a far lower level.  That's a basic

 4     rule.

 5        Q.   Now, the president -- and perhaps I was ambiguous when I set out

 6     his position, the president of the SDS executive committee for all of

 7     Bosnia.  That's not just somebody from a small part responsible for that

 8     part; right?  That's one of the national leaders.

 9        A.   If that is in question, then the relevance of the statement goes

10     up.  A moment ago you said that he was co-ordinator for Birac and

11     president of the Executive Council for Birac.  That's what you said a

12     moment ago.  And now you've changed what you said.  Let us just establish

13     that.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P355, page 60 in English and 68 in

15     B/C/S.

16             And as it comes up, I'd ask that that session be marked and we'll

17     excerpt Mr. Djukic's reports.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, could you already reserve a number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  The number reserved for 65 ter 02368 will be

20     P7743.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, reserved for excerpts of the minutes to be

22     uploaded.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, if we could have page 60 in both languages.

24     We have the transcript in B/C/S but that will be, I think, easier to work

25     with anyway?  And we see here an entry in General Mladic' notebook from

Page 42084

 1     17 September 1992, a meeting with the Foca Tactical Group, we see at the

 2     start a reference to its commander, Colonel Kovac.  And turning to page

 3     66 in both languages, we see Mladic's remarks over Miroslav Stanic, the

 4     head of the War Presidency:  "Foca was supposed to be the second Islamic

 5     centre for Muslims in Europe.  The population of Foca before the war was

 6     42.000, of which number around 51 per cent were Muslims, 49 per cent

 7     Serbs and Montenegrins.  Now the percentage of Serbs in Foca is 99

 8     per cent."

 9             Now, this is an example of the combination of the first goal,

10     ethnic separation, with the third goal, Serb control of the Drina valley,

11     as Mladic and Djukic said in the last two exhibits we saw; right?

12        A.   Absolutely not.  The first objective was separation.  It doesn't

13     say expulsion anywhere.  The third is control over Eastern Bosnia.

14             It's not written there anywhere that anyone should be expulsed.

15     So my answer is emphatically no.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have P431.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any -- In your question, Mr. Traldi, at

18     least in the English, it's transcribed as the first goal ethnic

19     separation, whereas the witness in his answer said the first objective

20     was separation, it doesn't say expulsion anywhere, so I do not know

21     whether the witness heard your words be translated as "expulsion" or

22     whether it was translated to him in B/C/S as "separation."

23             Witness, did you hear that in your own language that the word

24     "expulsion" was used or was it translated to you as "separation"?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday we read here in court the

Page 42085

 1     six strategic objectives.  We've read the text.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What I wanted to know is whether the words of

 3     Mr. Traldi where he said "ethnic separation," whether that was translated

 4     to you as "separation."

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I cannot testify

 6     what was said.  I can only testify how I understood his question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, your answer was absolutely not.  The first

 8     objective was separation.  It doesn't say expulsion anywhere, which

 9     suggests that the question by Mr. Traldi was translated to you in terms

10     of expulsion.  If that's the case, then I will invite Mr. Traldi to

11     repeat the question.  If it is not the case, then we do not understand

12     your answer criticising that another word was used; whereas, Mr. Traldi,

13     at least in English, used the word "separation."

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will answer.

15             Just exactly as it is written here.  You have a correct

16     translation into English of what Mr. Traldi said.  He was talking about

17     the six objectives, strategic objectives.  Ethnic separation combined in

18     his question with the third objective, the valley of the river Drina.  I

19     understood it implies the expulsion of people.  This is about expulsion.

20             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... so I do

21     understand now that it was translated to you in your own language as

22     "separation" but you interpreted that as including expulsion and,

23     therefore, you answered the question not on the basis of what Mr. Traldi

24     asked you but on the basis of your own interpretation of his words.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no --

Page 42086

 1             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here --

 3             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... if that's not

 4     the case, then I have to establish that you didn't answer my previous

 5     question.

 6             Let move on.  We'll consider whether or not to verify how it was

 7     explained to you in your own language.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Actually, Your Honour, I'm looking at the clock.

10     And I see we're at the time for a break.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we're at the time for a break.

12             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Witness.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at quarter past 12.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I use the time to briefly deal with a matter which

18     is the filing of Rule 92 bis attestations.

19             On 9 November of this year, the Defence filed Rule 92 bis

20     attestations for Zeljka Malinovic and Dragan Malinovic which have been

21     uploaded into e-court with the relevant statements attached.  The Defence

22     requests that the statements that were conditionally admitted into

23     evidence be replaced by the new versions.  The Chamber hereby grants the

24     Defence's request, instructs the Registry to replace D1231 and D1235 with

25     the newly uploaded versions and confirms the admission of D1231 with

Page 42087

 1     associated exhibits D1232 to D1234 and D1235 into evidence.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Can we please have P6730.  And it's MNA.

 5        Q.   This is a document coming from the Republic of Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina's state exchange commission.  It's dated 10 February, 1993.

 7     It refers in the first paragraph to girls of Muslim ethnicity being held

 8     captive and abused in a brothel in Miljevina.  That's in Foca, the

 9     municipality we were just discussing; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Turning to page 5 in the English, 4 in the B/C/S, we see

12     Izetbegovic issue a decision pardoning convicted person named

13     Nikola Ostojic.  And page 6 in the English, 5 in the B/C/S, the second

14     exchange referenced that Ostojic is exchanged for five people, including

15     at least three women.

16             So the exchanges of women also happened in the area covered by

17     the third strategic objective in the Drina area; right.

18        A.   Yes, yes, with the proviso that -- never mind, I'll stick with

19     yes.

20        Q.   Now, we saw in General Mladic's notebook that Foca had become 99

21     per cent Serb.  Holding people in what is referred to as a brothel until

22     they are exchanged is the sort of thing that would drive people out of

23     the region as soon as they had an opportunity to go; right?

24        A.   Certainly, just as in brothels for Serbian women held by Muslim

25     soldier, yes.

Page 42088

 1             MR. TRALDI:  I asked that that be admitted.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's the same number but not any further marked

 5     not admitted but now admitted.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's what I wanted to clear

 9     up.  It has its P number.  Does it mean the whole document is coming in

10     or will it receive a new number?  What is the proposal of the Prosecutor?

11             MR. TRALDI:  I'm tendering the whole document.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC:  Okay.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Mr. Registrar, the number already

14     assigned was ...

15             THE REGISTRAR:  P6730, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And the status changed from marked not admitted to

17     admitted into evidence.

18             Witness, I notice that you persistently continue to always refer,

19     if the question is about what happens in brothels, you are immediately,

20     although not asked, referring to brothels held by other parties.  You

21     were invited not to do that.  And I urge you again to not do that.

22     Because it's not part of the question.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 33348.

25        Q.   Now, this is a list for exchange.  We see the receipt stamp from

Page 42089

 1     the Bosnian Ministry of Defence, Tuzla District Secretariat, that it

 2     comes from the Serbian armed forces command of the Chetnik assault

 3     detachment, commission for exchange of prisoners of war in Pelemisi.

 4             We can turn to page 3 in both languages, please.

 5             We see a list of what are referred to as:  "Your people for

 6     exchange."

 7             Just taking a quick look, we see Muslim names here; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And if you look at, for instance, numbers 17, 18, 19, 30, 31, and

10     38, you see their ages, they're all minors; right?

11        A.   That is not seen in the Serbian text or perhaps the copy is bad,

12     but I see it in English.

13        Q.   Well, if you look at number 17, you see a handwritten "16 G" next

14     to it; right?

15        A.   Yes.  You can vaguely see it, but then very next passage is

16     totally invisible but I see it in English translation, yes.

17        Q.   And G is the first letter of the word "godine" or year in Bosnian

18     and Serbian languages; right?

19        A.   Yes, yes.  The fact that these names are accompanied by numbers

20     somebody is obviously taking into account and taking care to mention that

21     they are minors.  They're not treated like all the rest.

22        Q.   Now, for numbers 17, 18, 19, which have the minor notes, we see

23     Meriz Nevladin [phoen] and Kadir Manjic, and at number 38, if we scroll

24     to the right in B/C/S and a little bit up we see Ferida Osmanovic --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The English -- okay.

Page 42090

 1             MR. TRALDI:  I'm just going to ask you to remember those names

 2     for a moment and ask that we go into private session.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, could I just ask one question.

 4             If you look at numbers, and perhaps we move to the left again,

 5     numbers -- could we scroll a bit down.  Numbers 29, 30, and 31.  By the

 6     names, could you in any way tell us whether that gives a clue to the

 7     gender of these persons?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that a question to me?

 9             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, these are girls.  These are

11     women's names.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we move --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have a follow-up question.

14             With respect to the minors, you said they are not treated like

15     all the rest.  How do you know?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.  I see what is

17     shown to me, and I see that only next to some names age is indicated,

18     which implies that somebody is paying attention to the fact that they are

19     minors.  You see that other names have no age indication.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means you don't know that they are treated

21     like all the rest.  They are only referred to in a different way in this

22     document.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I said.  I said I

24     supposed that somebody was taking care of this, since they've written it

25     down.  I -- that's all I can say, based on what I see.

Page 42091

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 42092











11  Page 42092 redacted.  Private session.















Page 42093

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  I'd tender 65 ter 33348, which was the list for

 5     exchange.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P7745, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 06009.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see the transcript.  I have

11     the same on both screens.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you now have a B/C/S version on your screen?  The

13     transcript --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was not my question.  I have

15     documents on both screens.  I don't see the LiveNote anymore.

16             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... and could --

17     could the usher assist and see whether ...

18                           [Trial Chamber and Usher confer]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It will reappear very soon.  It's a consequence of

20     moving from private session into open session so it will be there in a

21     second.  The more we talk, the sooner it's there.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Sir, this is the 21 January 1993 session of the council for

24     co-ordinating state policy.  If we turn to page 59 in the English, 70 in

25     the B/C/S, and if we can turn one page back in the B/C/S, just to get the

Page 42094

 1     start.

 2             And we see Mr. Karadzic is speaking and he refers to exchange.

 3     And then in the second paragraph, he says:  "We now have to make" -- and

 4     we're turning to the next page in the B/C/S at the top.

 5             Second sentence:  "We now have to make arrests again, so as to be

 6     able to" --

 7             Turning to the next page in English:  "... exchange."

 8             So what he is stating is a policy of indiscriminately arresting

 9     non-Serbs for exchange; right?

10        A.   You have the next sentence:  "They are keeping Serbs in the

11     village.  They are asking for seven criminals in exchange for civilians."

12     You are again taking a sentence out of context.  So my answer is no, and

13     I explained why.

14        Q.   I understand you would like to focus on what they, which I take

15     to be the other side is doing.  What Karadzic is saying is, We have to

16     arrest people, not because they've committed any crime, but so we can

17     exchange them; right?

18        A.   That is written here.  That's what I received.  That's only I can

19     say.  But that's all I can say about this document, together with the

20     sentence that follows, which says that Muslims are keeping Serbian

21     civilians and they want seven criminals in exchange.

22        Q.   Can we have page 20 in the English, 22 in the B/C/S.  At the

23     bottom we see Karadzic is speaking and he says, starting in the second

24     sentence:  "There was 50/50 of us in Zvornik.  The number of inhabitants

25     of Zvornik is now the same, approximately 50.000 and they are all Serbs.

Page 42095

 1     More than 24.000 Serbs from Zenica and Central Bosnia have arrived and

 2     stopped in Zvornik" --

 3        A.   Excuse me, it's not visible here.  I have the impression that

 4     this is the wrong page.  I can't see that statement by Radovan Karadzic.

 5             It's in English here, but it's not here in Serbian.  Could we

 6     just see the next page in Serbian?  Yes.

 7        Q.   I think we do now have page 22 in the B/C/S?

 8        A.   Mm-hm.  Yes.

 9        Q.   So what Karadzic says is:  "There was 50/50 of us in Zvornik.

10     The number of inhabitants of Zvornik is now the same, approximately

11     50.000, and they are all Serbs.  More than 24.000 Serbs from Zenica and

12     Central Bosnia have now arrived and stopped in Zvornik."

13             Now, first, I asked about Zvornik and Bijeljina and whether they

14     were claimed by the Bosnian Serbs this morning, does the fact, as

15     Karadzic says, that Zvornik had become entirely Serb-populated refresh

16     your recollection as to whether it was claimed by the Bosnian Serbs?

17        A.   Serbs took over Zvornik.  From the Muslim perspective, they

18     captured it.  From the Serbian perspective, it was liberated.  But I

19     stand by my position.  It is not part of the six strategic objectives

20     discussed yesterday.  You can see from this that Serbs had been expelled

21     from Zvornik.  That's what you've just read.  From Tuzla, they were

22     violently, mercilessly expelled.  That's what you've just read, from

23     Zenica, from Central Bosnia, and I would add Tuzla as a special example

24     of the ethnic cleansing of Serbs.

25        Q.   Where's Zvornik relative to the Drina river?

Page 42096

 1        A.   Sir, I go at least twice a month to Zvornik.  I know that place

 2     very well.  It's just as if I asked you where New York is relative to the

 3     Hudson river.  You want me to answer?  It's on the Drina river.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you could have left out the whole explanation

 5     because we do not travel with you twice a month.  So if you would have

 6     just said it's at the Drina river then would you have answered the

 7     question.  It seems that it amuses you.  It doesn't amuse the Chamber.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, this is the third witness this meeting

10     has been used with.  I think we have used five or six different portions.

11     We can meet with the Defence, but under those circumstances, I would

12     think it would be reasonable exceptionally to have the whole thing.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.  79 pages.

14             MR. TRALDI:  I grant that it's an exception, Your Honours, but

15     it's been used several times in many different parts.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If it helps for the whole

17     document to be admitted, we don't object.  But it should be one document

18     under one P number; I think that would be practical.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The whole of the document will be marked for

21     identification.  The Chamber will consider whether or not, because I

22     don't have the clear recollection of what portions were used or not, but

23     whether that justifies the admission of all 79 pages, we'll have a look

24     at that.

25             For the time being, the whole of the document would, Mr.

Page 42097

 1     Registrar, receive number ...

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI P7746, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and is marked for identification.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 02382.

 6             I don't believe we have the right document.  02382.  And it

 7     should be the 34th Session of the RS Assembly which doesn't look like

 8     this.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the meantime, may I leave the

10     courtroom for a moment?  Is that allowed?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the usher will accompany you.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I can use the time meanwhile for other matters.

15             First the remaining issue from the testimony of Savo Strbac.

16             Exhibit P7646.  On the 12th of November of this year, the

17     Prosecution e-mailed the Chamber and the Defence, first, advising that

18     the redacted B/C/S version of Exhibit P7646 had been uploaded into

19     e-court under Rule 65 ter number 33419a, and, second, requesting that the

20     corrected version, now consistent with the English version, replace what

21     is currently contained in Exhibit P7646.  The Chamber instructs the

22     Registry to replace Exhibit P7646 with the document uploaded under 65 ter

23     number 34419a.

24             Mr. Stojanovic, you're on your feet.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  Just

Page 42098

 1     one request while this brief pause is on, could Mr. Mladic leave the

 2     courtroom.  He needs to go to the bathroom.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber does not oppose, although we would

 6     continue in the meantime unless you would say, let's take an early break

 7     but then the last session would be a little bit over one hour.  So it's

 8     up to you whether we take an early break and then Mr. Mladic being

 9     present all the time or that -- or that he would agree that we'll

10     continue while he is leaving the courtroom.

11             Which of the two?

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I just have a second?

13                           [Defence counsel confer]

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

15     can we have an early break and a longer session after that?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll take an early break.  And we will --

17     first of all, the witness -- we'd like to see you back, Mr. Kovic, in 20

18     minutes.

19             You may follow the usher.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Just so it doesn't get lost we don't need the

21     witness but the transcript, I believe, recorded 65 ter 334419a for P7646,

22     and it's actually 33419a.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I may have misspoken whatever it is, it's hereby

24     accurately now on the transcript.  Is it ... well, it's now still --

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 42099

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's correct anyhow.  We take an early break

 2     and we resume at ten minutes past 1.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.48 p.m

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.10 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, before we resume, has the Chamber

 6     understood well that there are no other witnesses available until the

 7     start of the videolink on Thursday, which was scheduled for 2.00 in the

 8     afternoon.  Is that ...

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We have some concerns about that, because that's a

11     whole day lost tomorrow where we could have heard evidence, and also for

12     Thursday morning if the videolink is scheduled for three or three and a

13     half hours then we would still have time to hear other evidence perhaps

14     in the morning hours, but we'll consider how to proceed.  But, of course,

15     if there's no witness, there's no witness, but how we'll deal with the

16     time lost, we'll consider that.

17             Mr. Traldi, you're on your feet.

18             MR. TRALDI:  I am, Your Honour.  Just one more brief transcript

19     matter.  At transcript page 59, line 7 in the temporary transcript and it

20     was in private session but I don't think this change would necessitate

21     going back in, I was recorded to refer to Exhibit P2725, and had intended

22     to refer to P7275.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then the next one being P7276, two

25     sequential exhibits.

Page 42100

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Precisely.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby corrected.

 3             Mr. Traldi, any time estimate I mean, if we have no witnesses

 4     tomorrow it would mean that we don't conclude today it might mean that we

 5     have to come back for ten minutes or half an hour tomorrow.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. Stojanovic and I spoke about how much time each

 7     of us respectively need, and based on our calculations, it's possible we

 8     would run until 2.20 or 2.25 today.  If everyone was willing to do that,

 9     everyone, including the witness, would be free of court responsibilities

10     tomorrow.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if we move forward and that's best done by

12     focussing on the question, then there's a fair chance that we could

13     conclude today.  Otherwise we would like to see you back tomorrow for

14     only a very short session which may not be very attractive neither for

15     you nor for the parties or the Bench.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 80 in the English, 85 in the

18     B/C/S, at the bottom.

19        Q.   This is part of the 34th session of the Republika Srpska

20     Assembly.  Did you review this session?

21        A.   No, I did not.

22        Q.   Now we see here part of Dr. Karadzic's remarks and he says, among

23     other things:  "We have preserved," and it's about ten lines up from the

24     bottom in the English:  "We have preserved 250.000 places of the living

25     space where Muslims used to live."

Page 42101

 1             Now what we just saw before the break in the Zvornik [sic] before

 2     the war 50/50 after the war the same number of people but all Serbs,

 3     that's one illustration of what was done with those preserved living

 4     space, moving Serbs in; right?

 5        A.   I'm sorry, this is unclear.  What does this mean?  250.000 places

 6     living space where Muslims lived.  I'm not sure I understood what that

 7     meant.  What does that mean?  500, 600 Serbs south of Bihac, that's all.

 8     What is this 250.000 places?  Is it settlements?  Is it what?

 9        Q.   What I'm putting to you, like we just saw in Zvornik, RS policy,

10     Republika Srpska policy, was to move Serbs into the living spaces that

11     Muslims had used to live in, that had been abandoned by their previous

12     residents because of the war and the crimes that had been committed

13     against them.  That's the truth; right?

14        A.   No.

15             MR. TRALDI:  I ask that this page be added to Exhibit P2508.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you uploaded in that same document including

17     this page.

18             MR. TRALDI:  No.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So then we'll wait for it to be uploaded and then

20     we'll decide on the replacement of P2508 by the newly uploaded version.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 33286.

23        Q.   This is one more exchange list, detainees from Trnovo, Kalinovik,

24     Gacko, Foca, Nevesinje and other places who it says were exchanged with

25     Kalinovik.  If you look, just for instance, at number 1, that's a Muslim

Page 42102

 1     woman's name; right?

 2        A.   Of course, yes.

 3        Q.   Now Kalinovik is -- where's Kalinovik relative to the Neretva

 4     river?

 5        A.   Again, a geography-related question.  How do I put this?  It is

 6     east of the Neretva river.  It's a very well-known place.  Several great

 7     men were born there in the Kalinovik area.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you please focus.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   So what we see here again is the detention of civilians in the

11     area covered this time by strategic objective 4, control over the

12     Neretva; right?

13        A.   This is a list of civilians of Muslim ethnicity, yes.  Strategic

14     objective number 4 does not refer to detention, et cetera, so this is not

15     the result of any policy.  It doesn't have to be linked to what we read

16     in relation to those strategic objectives.  We have a list here, and

17     anybody who knows how to read can read this.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 33490.

19        Q.   Now this is a certification from the RS MUP, dated 13

20     September 1993.  Djordjislav Askraba, a RS MUP employee, had worked at

21     the Kalinovik public security station and then, as agreed, the Kalinovik

22     military command, he transferred to work in the Army of Republika Srpska.

23             MR. TRALDI:  And could we have the second page, please, in both

24     languages.

25        Q.   In the second period, second paragraph, we read from 7 July to 7

Page 42103

 1     August 1992 with the consent of the SJB, Djordjislav Askraba, police

 2     employee, was seconded to the Army of Republika Srpska, to duties and

 3     tasks of commander of the detail for providing security for detained

 4     persons of Muslim ethnicity.  So this shows again the VRS is detaining

 5     civilians in -- in the geographic region covered by strategic objective

 6     4; right?

 7        A.   Well, the answer is yes because that is what it written here.

 8     But do allow me to say that it is obvious that you are basing your

 9     questions to me on those strategic objectives of Republika Srpska that we

10     discussed yesterday.  I mean, all the time we are providing illustrations

11     for the implementations of these strategic objectives.  I think it is

12     necessary for us to see what General Mladic himself says about these

13     strategic objectives.  I have that here and I can read it out to you if

14     you wish.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, leave it to the parties to ask you

16     questions.  You've written your report.  You wait for the questions and

17     then you answer them.  And what else we need is for the parties and for

18     this Chamber to decide.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender the last two documents, 33286

21     and 33490.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibits P7747 and P7748

24     respectively, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Both are admitted into evidence.

Page 42104

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Now, sir, I'm going to step back.  I'm going to try to do it very

 3     briefly, to some of your evidence about the relationship between the Serb

 4     authorities in BiH and the JNA before the war in Bosnia.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 17258.

 6        Q.   Now, what we see here is a request by the RS Assembly to the JNA

 7     dated the 11th of December, 1991.  At point 1, we see a -- we see a

 8     reference, first to using all available means to protect the territories

 9     of Bosnia and Herzegovina as integral parts of the state of Yugoslavia,

10     and then that the assembly is requesting -- or the assembly is referring

11     to its decision on the territories of municipalities, local communes and

12     populated places in Bosnia and Herzegovina which are considered the

13     territory of the federal state of Yugoslavia.

14             Now, this is the request you refer to on page 79 of the B/C/S, 60

15     of the English of D1369 that you say is a call to protect BH from

16     internal and external enemies, including Croatian and Muslim

17     paramilitaries; right?

18        A.   Page 79 you said of this report?  79?

19        Q.   Yes, sir.

20        A.   Mm-hm.  No, that's not on page 79.  I have to say that.  It's not

21     that page.  Could you please check.  I have my text printed here.  It's

22     the text about the report of Robert Donia; right?

23        Q.   I'm sorry, we discussed earlier that the page numbers in the

24     version we initially received had changed and I hadn't accounted for

25     that.

Page 42105

 1             If you could look at the middle of page 82 in the B/C/S, I think

 2     you'll find the reference.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And for English?

 4             MR. TRALDI:  And English, the page, I'm confident, remains the

 5     same.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes, yes, I found it.

 7     Yes.  "JNA to carry out its constitutional obligation and defend

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina as part of Yugoslavia from all external and internal

 9     enemies."  Yes.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Now, could we please have 65 ter 17179.

11        Q.   Now, this is another document sent to the chief of the Main Staff

12     of the SFRY armed forces and the commanders of the 2nd and 4th Military

13     Districts.  We read at the top that:  "Due to the hard-core position of

14     the ... Croatian and Muslim peoples to separate from Yugoslavia,

15     representatives of the Serbian nation in BH," and describes actions

16     forming the RS offering to confederalise BH.

17             And the second paragraph says the RS Assembly is "firmly

18     determined to institutionalise peacefully and legally the remaining

19     Serbian territories of BH within Yugoslavia.  Therefore, in accordance

20     with the decision to proclaim a republic, organs of authority have been

21     formed on all levels; they will soon establish full control on the

22     territory of Republika Srpska of BH."

23             Now you don't mention this request in your report, do you?

24        A.   You don't even have the date here.  I would appreciate it if you

25     could tell me, you didn't mention it at all, and that is very important.

Page 42106

 1     A moment ago, it was December 1992.

 2        Q.   Now, we can say on the basis of discussions in the RS Assembly

 3     including comments by Dragan Kalinic at the 6th session reflected at

 4     Dr. Donia's highlight 151 in his report, that this would have followed on

 5     discussions held on the 26th of January, 1992.  We can see, if we turn to

 6     the end of the document, page 3.  That's in the English but we'll need to

 7     go back to page 2 in the B/C/S.  Just above the words "organs of

 8     Republika Srpska," the deadline for carrying out certain tasks is 25

 9     February.  So we can say contextually it must be between 26 January and

10     25 February that this document was sent.  Does that assist you, sir?

11        A.   Yes, yes.  Here, we can already hint at what period the document

12     is from.  A moment ago I pointed out that the Assembly of the Serb People

13     of Bosnia-Herzegovina is asking the JNA to carry out its constitutional

14     obligation, that is to say, Article 240, Robert Donia is writing about

15     that himself.  And what it says there is that they are asking the army to

16     defend the constitutional order of the country.

17        Q.   What I'm putting to you is, in this one, which you don't refer

18     to, what they are saying is give us guns and help us establish Serb

19     authority.  That's the truth; right?

20        A.   War is starting, everybody is being armed.  Everybody is saying

21     give us weapons.  Some people are asking the JNA for weapons.  Some are

22     asking Germany.  I quote that in one text.  When General Blagoje Adzic

23     says that Croat units have German weapons.  So here it is the JNA that is

24     being requested to defend the constitutional order of the country that

25     still exists.  And I don't see what is in dispute there.  I could have

Page 42107

 1     mentioned this document as well.  It would have only reinforced my own

 2     thesis.  Thank you for having drawn my attention to it.

 3        Q.   You're welcome.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  And I tender the last two documents.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 17258 will be P7449.

 7             And 17 --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  7449 or 7749?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  P7749.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  And 65 ter 17179 would be Exhibit P7750.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P7749 and P7750 are admitted into evidence.

13             MR. TRALDI:  If we can go back to the previous page in the

14     English.

15        Q.   At point 9 we read the assembly asking for "urgent deployment of

16     a JNA unit of adequate strength to the Kljuc municipality."

17             We see lower down a reference to the forest location of Laniste.

18     Now, turning to the top again of page 3 in the English, we see that the

19     deadline for carrying out tasks 5 through 8 is 25 February, task 9

20     whenever possible.

21             Now, in that regard, could we have P352, page 122.  And that will

22     be the English and B/C/S transcript.

23             Now, here we see General Mladic's notes of a meeting on the 26th

24     of March, 1992.

25             Turning to page 130, we see notes on reporting on the

Page 42108

 1     preparations of units for relocation to new locations.

 2             Turning to page 136, for the 594th Engineering Regiment of the

 3     then-9th Corps of the JNA, he is noting the possibility of moving it to a

 4     place called Laniste.  And so Mladic is helping or discussing helping

 5     fulfilling the RS Assembly request here; right?

 6        A.   No.  General Mladic is carrying out his constitutional duty.  At

 7     that moment Yugoslavia is still in existence.  Bosnia-Herzegovina hadn't

 8     even declared independence at that point in time, as I've already said,

 9     the constitution, Article 240, requires the army to defend the

10     constitutional order of the country.  So General Mladic is carrying out

11     his duty here.  At that moment, from a formal and legal point of view,

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina is part of Yugoslavia.  It exists.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Can we move into private session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 42109











11  Page 42109 redacted.  Private session.















Page 42110

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 19650.

 6        Q.   This is the transcript of a speech by President Karadzic to the

 7     Herzegovina Corps on the 13th of May, 1995.  Now, Karadzic is discussing

 8     negotiations.  He discusses the Contact Group Plan, discusses the

 9     ambition of the West.  But he also says during the course of the speech

10     that the Bosnian Serbs inherited a lot of things in JNA storehouses

11     dispersed a lot from the territories under the control of Croats and

12     Muslims.

13             That's an accurate reflection of the co-operation between the JNA

14     and the Bosnian Serb authorities in arming what would become the VRS;

15     right?

16        A.   Could you please indicate that section to me?  Where does it say

17     that?

18        Q.   Sir, I don't have it -- I don't have the right page -- sorry.

19     Page 6 in the English and 3 in the B/C/S, second paragraph?

20        A.   This big paragraph, you mean?

21        Q.   Yes.  And we're looking --

22        A.   Oh, I see.  This is a completely different page from the one we

23     looked at a moment ago.

24        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

25        A.   All right.

Page 42111

 1        Q.   He says, "It is a fact of the matter that we inherited a lot of

 2     things in the JNA storehouses.  We managed to disperse a lot of things

 3     thanks to General Kovacevic who was a colonel at the time and with the

 4     agreement between Krajisnik, myself, and General Mladic, we managed to

 5     disperse a lot of things from the territories under the control of Croats

 6     and Muslims.  That is how we inherited these things."

 7             And that's a reflection, again, co-operation between the JNA and

 8     the Bosnian Serb leadership in arming Bosnian Serb forces, particularly

 9     the VRS; right?

10        A.   The answer is only partially yes because at that moment, Muslim

11     and Croat forces were shooting at the JNA.  When the Serbs received those

12     weapons, the Yugoslav People's Army was under attack from Muslim and

13     Croat forces.  So would the JNA have to give weapons to those shooting at

14     it?  I wrote that in my report.  The JNA was trying to call up Croat and

15     Muslim conscripts --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, witness, you're invited to slow down.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mm-hm.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you resume from where why you said the JNA was

20     trying to call up Croat and Muslim conscripts and resume from there.

21             THE WITNESS:  I can't see this -- okay.  No, no, it's all right.

22     No.  No.  Yeah.  Yeah.

23             [Interpretation] When I'm talking I follow what is written in the

24     LiveNote and I didn't have it now.

25             So I said that call-ups were sent by the JNA to Muslim and Croat

Page 42112

 1     conscripts regularly but they did not respond.  Instead, party-based

 2     armies were formed that attacked the Yugoslav People's Army.  What was

 3     the JNA supposed to do at that moment?  It was defending itself.

 4             So I am not denying that part of the weapons that the JNA had

 5     ended up in Serb hands.  That's what you asked me.  But just take into

 6     account the situation.  The JNA could not give weapons to those who were

 7     then shooting at it.  It just couldn't be expected.  It's the real

 8     situation, as it was.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I ask that this speech be marked and

10     we'll make a selection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, would you reserve a number for an

12     excerpt still to be uploaded.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 19650 will be P7752.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  It's marked for identification or, as a

15     matter of fact, it's reserved for the excerpt to be uploaded.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart now to play a video

18     65 ter 27978c starting at 58 seconds.  For the booth, this will be where

19     Mr. Stanic starts speaking.  And we've had it confirmed so it will only

20     be necessary to play it once.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you give us a moment to find this

22     transcript, please.  We have different numbers not the 65 ter.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the interpreters' booth tell us when they are

24     ready.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Now, Your Honour.  Thank you.

Page 42113

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll now look at the video.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The atmosphere is Srbinje was

 4     magnificent today.  A rally that brought together several thousand people

 5     from this town and the neighbouring municipalities was held in support of

 6     Dr. Radovan Karadzic, President of Republika Srpska, and

 7     General Ratko Mladic, the army chief of Republika Srpska, the Chief of

 8     Staff of the VRS.  The rally was held with the slogan, We won't give you

 9     our Nemanjics without bloodshed, and it was aimed against the provision

10     of The Hague Tribunal which had charged them for alleged war crimes.  The

11     rally was organised by the Municipal Board of the Serbian Democratic

12     Party.  Besides the representatives of the Srbinje municipality, the

13     following people attended the rally:  Zoran Vujanovic, deputy president

14     of the Serbian Democratic Party of Republika Srpska, Bozidar Vucurevic,

15     mayor of the Trebinje municipality, Mirko Mijatovic, deputy in the

16     National Assembly of Republika Srpska, Dr. Dusko Kornjaca, mayor of the

17     Cajnice municipality, Drago Pejovic, deputy in the National Assembly from

18     Cajnice and others.

19             Miroslav Stanic, president of the SDS Municipal Board in Srbinje

20     was the first to greet the participants and the people of Srbinje and the

21     neighbouring municipalities.

22             "Stanic speech:  Dear brothers and sisters, dear guests, I would

23     like to greet you all with a sincere wish that there be no more war, but

24     with a firm resolution that we shall be the creators of our own happiness

25     and our own future.  The young people do not remember, but those of us

Page 42114

 1     who are somewhat older and who -- and those who are really old here know

 2     very well that we used to organise meetings and rallies in support of

 3     Patrice Lumumba, Che Guevara, the Carinthian Slovenes, the

 4     Czechoslovakians, the Khmer Rouge and many others whose names are now

 5     almost unpronounceable.  So why not support ourselves today?  We want to

 6     choose our own leaders for ourselves.  We, the Serbs living to the west

 7     of the Drina river, know very well that our leaders are Dr. Radovan

 8     Karadzic and General Ratko Mladic.  We do not care much who the president

 9     of the Muslim Croatian Federation will be and even less of America or

10     Russia.  We know that the local people there, the local voters, will

11     decide that.  Why should then others make decisions here for us?  My

12     personal opinion about this unprecedented international hunt for our

13     leaders is well known but I hope that other participants will present

14     this even better.  In the name of justice, in the name of democracy, in

15     the name of your will, the will of the people, I greet you all once

16     again."

17             MR. TRALDI:  Now --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, I'm a bit puzzled.  It was supposed to

19     start and -- the speech would start but we heard a lot of comment before

20     that.

21             MR. TRALDI:  I think I probably expressed myself unclearly and so

22     we did get the introduction but --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

24             MR. TRALDI:  It's done now.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's done.

Page 42115

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Sir, what Mr. Stanic says -- so two questions.  First, he is

 3     referred to as the president of the Municipal Board in Srbinje.  That had

 4     previously been called Foca which we talked about before; right?

 5        A.   Yes, Foca is an old medieval name for this town which was part of

 6     the Serbian state in the Middle Ages.  It was a mistake to change that

 7     name.  It was an ancient town.  It was part of the Serbian state.  It was

 8     a mistake to change the name of Foca.

 9        Q.   And when he says we the Serbs west of the Drina river know our

10     leaders are Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic, that's an accurate

11     reflection of Mladic as well as Karadzic's power and responsibility in

12     Republika Srpska; right?

13        A.   I asked you more than once to be clear about the date.  Again,

14     you haven't told me when this happened to see whether at this time they

15     were the responsible ones in Republika Srpska.

16        Q.   I can tell you that it was during the war so Karadzic is the

17     president and Mladic is the commander of the Main Staff.

18        A.   So that's the most precise can you get?  During the war.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, don't comment.  You can ask, and I will ask

20     Mr. Traldi now whether he has any further details as to the date of this

21     speech.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I'll check our records.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Not immediately.

Page 42116

 1        Q.   Are you unable to answer the question?

 2        A.   I am able to answer this question, of course, it's obvious that

 3     this gentleman recognises the authority and the powers of

 4     Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic.  You can hear that in his speech.  You

 5     can't take anything away from it.  Or add to it.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this video.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P7753, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             Mr. Traldi, could you give us a further time estimate?

11             MR. TRALDI:  I would say about 15 minutes, possibly 20,

12     Your Honour, and that's --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Try to finish in 15 minutes, if possible.

14             Mr. Stojanovic has your time estimate changed?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This moment, Your Honour, no.  We

16     reckon with two documents and about ten minutes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Then, please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have Exhibit P3076.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Now, this is part of the transcript of the 37th Session of the

23     Bosnian Serb Assembly.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 18 in English; 13, B/C/S.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's the 10th of January, 1994.

Page 42117

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   General Mladic is speaking and he says in this long paragraph at

 3     the end:  "The next thing is that this is our historical chance to create

 4     a state.  Not any kind of state, but an all-Serbian state of a round

 5     shape with access to the sea and horogravske and horografske facilities,

 6     and as little enemies as possible, those who could be our potential

 7     enemies and raise against us again in a few years."

 8             Now, first, you mention in your reports and you mentioned this

 9     morning some of General Mladic's comments at the assembly.  You do not

10     mention this one; right?

11        A.   Yes, I mentioned the comment of General Mladic from 12 May 1992.

12     Obviously you have different statements by General Mladic.  The question

13     is which one to pick.  I would like to draw your attention to the fact

14     that say something and to do something are two different things.

15             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... witness,

16     Mr. Traldi has chosen to take you to this speech.  So would you please

17     answer in that respect.  I think it was the January 1994, if I'm --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

19             MR. TRALDI:  That's right.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So that's we're focussing on now.  But now

21     hopefully before you answer the question, do you have any explanation

22     what "Horogravske" means because in the English translation, it seems to

23     be an unknown expression.

24             Could you assist us?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Leaning well on the sea, I don't

Page 42118

 1     know what this means.  Maybe it's a military technical term that I don't

 2     know.  I see it for the first time.  I really don't know.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Any of the parties could assist us.  It may have got

 4     something to do with the transcription or the recording of -- because two

 5     times the word is in one line and grafske might have to do something with

 6     writing.  But the witness cannot assist us.

 7             Could you now please answer the question that was put to you by

 8     Mr. Traldi.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question was whether I put this

10     statement in my report.  No, I didn't.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Now, an all-Serbian state, that's exactly what we saw happened in

13     Rajlovac, Vogosca, and Foca; right?  It was all Serb or almost entirely

14     Serb.

15        A.   No.  No.  All Serb does not mean that in that Serbian state there

16     would be no Serbs [as interpreted].  That's not correct.  The leadership

17     of Republika Srpska and General Mladic want the preservation of a

18     multi-ethnic Yugoslavia.  That is rejected.  Secession occurs and now in

19     Sarajevo, Alija Izetbegovic -- my answer is no.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you also check the transcript in English page

21     85, line 20, sounds a bit illogical.  I don't know whether the witness

22     made a mistake or, but would you please clarify that.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Sir, first, you said all Serb does not mean in that Serbian state

25     and you were recorded to say there would be no Serbs.  Did you mean to

Page 42119

 1     say it doesn't mean there will be no non-Serbs?

 2        A.   Yes, yes I'll repeat.  The --

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You want a specific answer.  It

 6     doesn't imply that in these territories there would be no non-Serbs.  It

 7     only means the democratic right of the Serbian people to

 8     self-determination, as required by all the other Yugoslav peoples, and

 9     which is a completely legitimate right.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Now, sir, I'm interested in focussing on these particular

12     remarks.  So when Mladic says this all-Serbian state will have, among

13     other things, as little enemies as possible, those who could be our

14     potential enemies and raise against us in a few years, who do you

15     understand him to mean?

16        A.   Newly formed states in the territory of Yugoslavia for which

17     General Mladic fought like all the other leaders of Republika Srpska are

18     fragmented.  Look at the borders even today, the borders created --

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

20        A.   -- after the breakup --

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... of the limitation of

22     borders.  Who do you understand him to mean when he says "as few enemies

23     as possible"?

24        A.   What do I mean -- who does he mean?  I'm a historian, I'm not a

25     psychologist.

Page 42120

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  If you look at the end of the next --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I see that the witness thinks that as a

 4     historian he -- where he can't answer the question so then we accept that

 5     he can't do that because he is a historian and unable then to interpret

 6     any texts.  Well, let's then move on.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   In the next paragraph at the end, sir, General Mladic says:  "We

 9     have to understand that Muslims and Croats who are like this represent a

10     danger by this knife."

11             Does that assist you as a historian in figuring out who he meant

12     were the enemies?

13        A.   I don't see that.  Is that in the next paragraph?  I can't see

14     that passage.  Must be on the next page in B/C/S.  If you could just

15     point it out to me.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... it was just

17     at the end of the previous page.  We have now moved to the next one.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Look at the last line.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Uh-huh.  Very well.

21             Of course, this is not about Muslims and Croats here, not the

22     Muslims and Croats who remain within the borders of that Serbian state.

23     It could refer equally to those who stayed outside in the territory of

24     Herceg-Bosna, in the territories controlled by the Muslims.  The whole

25     debate was about the Serbs' desire for a multi-ethnic state in Yugoslavia

Page 42121

 1     and the Muslim leadership rejected that and they wanted their own

 2     unitarian Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   When you say "the whole debate," you're not talking about a

 4     debate at the 37th session of the Republika Srpska Assembly, you're

 5     talking about a debate in January, February, 1992; right?

 6        A.   This is not discussed at this session of the assembly but it

 7     remains a topic for historians to this day; what did Serbs want?  This is

 8     January 1992 -- 1994.  It's been years into the war.  Serbs are again

 9     working for separation.  That's the first war objective.  They had lost

10     their illusions about the possibility to live in that state, and they

11     have a democratic right to choose what they want.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Finally can we have P431.

13        Q.   This is the 16th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly.  You refer

14     to several of General Mladic's comments at this session in your report.

15             Can we have page 34 in the English and 33 in the B/C/S --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The 12th of May 1992.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:

18             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Your Honours.  The 12th of May, 1992 is

19     the date.

20        Q.   General Mladic says here, about ten lines down from the top in

21     the English, "Please, let not only put our minds into what we are doing

22     but also think thoroughly about it and let us be cautious about when to

23     keep mum.  No, the thing that we are doing, needs to be guarded as our

24     deepest secret."

25             If what Mladic was talking about at this assembly session was, as

Page 42122

 1     you said, peace and living together, that wouldn't have needed to be kept

 2     secret, would it?

 3        A.   No.  Anyone who has served in the army knows there are secrets

 4     which are not discussed in the army.  General Mladic is a general of the

 5     Serb army.  There are things that are not talked about.  It's part of the

 6     war.  Anyone who did his military service knows that.  General Mladic

 7     functions as a soldier.  Please allow me in my answer to this question to

 8     read out what Mladic said on 12 May 1992.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

10        A.   Just a short passage.

11        Q.   Sir, please focus on the passage we're discussing.  Mladic next

12     says:  "What our representatives appearing in the media at political

13     talks and negotiations are going to say, and they do need to present our

14     goals in a way that will sound appealing to the ears" --

15        A.   Excuse me, just could you show me where it is.  I can't see the

16     passage.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you not interrupt Mr. Traldi when he is

18     putting a question to you.  Rather, listen to what he reads.  But since

19     we're interrupted anyhow now, Mr. Traldi, if you could find the portion

20     in B/C/S so as to accommodate the witness, that would be appreciated.

21             MR. TRALDI:  If I could just have a moment, Your Honour.

22        Q.   I'm sorry, my Cyrillic is not the strongest, and so it's taking

23     me a little bit of time.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, if could you assist, or Mr. Ivetic,

25     that would be appreciated as well.

Page 42123

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am just looking, Your Honour.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you just show me in English

 3     and then I'll find it more easily in Serbian.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   It's about ten lines down in the English.  You see a line saying

 6     starting with the word "republic," and it's about three lines down to the

 7     right, starting:  "And please ..."

 8        A.   It seems it's not here.  Not on this page.  There's no mention of

 9     Republika Srpska Krajina.  Maybe the previous page.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  From what I see, Mr. Traldi, it may not be on this

11     page because reference to numbers often help me.  I see in the English

12     not the 10.000, neither do I see in the B/C/S the numbers 650 kilometres

13     and 150 kilometres.

14             MR. TRALDI:  I take the point, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Sir, to facilitate letting you go home, I'm just going to put to

16     you the evidence the Chamber has received, if that works for everybody.

17     Which is what we have in the English, which is General Mladic describing

18     what's being done at this assembly as the deepest secret, saying that

19     what our representatives appearing at political talks and negotiations

20     are going to say has to be presented in a way that will sound appealing

21     and that our people must know how to read between the lines.

22             Now, that wouldn't be necessary unless what they were talking

23     about doing was something criminal; right?

24        A.   Absolutely not.  Every army, every country has things that are

25     not publicly discussed.  It doesn't have to be criminal.  Why would we

Page 42124

 1     conclude that it is?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But this is discussion is not taking place in the

 3     army.  It's taking place in the RS Assembly.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?  Of course.  These

 5     are the highest state bodies of Republika Srpska.  All parliaments of the

 6     world have something called closed session.  Are you going to accuse them

 7     that they are discussing crimes?  Unless have you a negative bias towards

 8     a given --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... closed

10     session, he is just telling them in a public session that they must keep

11     some things secret.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer to this question is no.

13     That is not implied.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

15             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I apologise, but my recollection of the

16     evidence that the Chamber has received is that this is also a closed

17     session of the assembly.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If that is so, then thank you so much.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Sir, the Chamber has also received evidence, it has the whole

21     speech.  You quote Mladic saying:  "Therefore, we cannot cleanse" - it's

22     on page 35 in the English - "nor can we have a sieve to sift so that only

23     Serbs would stay, or that the Serbs would fall through and the rest would

24     leave."

25             Now, you refer to this part in your report.  The Chamber has

Page 42125

 1     received evidence that he continues as we see:  "Well, that is, that will

 2     not, I do not know how Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic would explain this

 3     to the world."

 4             So he is, again, expressing concern about public reaction in that

 5     comment; right?

 6        A.   It requires a major effort to follow this because we don't have

 7     the Serbian text, so I'm listening to the interpretation and following

 8     the English text.  But I will try to answer.

 9             At this session, it's the 12th of May, 1992, if I'm not mistaken

10     in Banja Luka, General Mladic is speaking as a reasonable man who is

11     warning of all the problems and troubles that are there.  If you will not

12     give me an opportunity to read out what he said, and I did not refer to

13     this in my report, didn't find it in Dr. Donia's report, if this is

14     evidence for the indictment, then what did General Mladic say that cannot

15     be included in the indictment?  I'm drawing your attention to 16 through

16     18, these are statements of General Mladic at this session and --

17             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... witness, again,

18     it may be it's already in evidence.  You don't know.  I have no clear

19     recollection.  We leave it to the parties and you were called by the

20     Defence so whatever was important, the Defence could have asked you

21     either in the examination-in-chief or to include that in the report.  So,

22     therefore, leave it to them, and don't seek to impose upon us what we

23     should hear from you because you consider it to be relevant and

24     important.

25             Mr. Mladic is seeking for a -- but he first should sit down.  And

Page 42126

 1     meanwhile, we'll ...

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You apparently do not understand the structure of

 4     criminal proceedings, Witness, that's a pity.  Because it takes a lot of

 5     time.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, I understand that very

 7     well.  You do not wish to hear what General Mladic said.

 8             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... we wish to hear

 9     what the parties, including the Defence who called you as a witness to

10     whatever.  I mean, this Chamber is open to everything.  But it is the

11     parties and the Chamber who will consider what is relevant or not and not

12     for you to decide at this moment.

13             Mr. Traldi, any further questions, because we are ...

14             MR. TRALDI:  Just one final one.

15        Q.   Sir, we've seen Mladic call at the assembly calling for an

16     all-Serbian state.  We've seen municipality after municipality that had

17     become ethnically all-Serb.  Is it your conclusion as a historian that

18     that's somehow a coincidence?

19        A.   Can you put that question more clearly.  I didn't understand it.

20     What is a mere coincidence?  I will be happy to answer your question.

21        Q.   That municipality after municipality in the Republika Srpska had

22     become, by population, 99 or 100 per cent Serb.

23        A.   So what is the question?

24        Q.   We saw him call for an all-Serb state.  We saw that happen in a

25     bunch of municipalities on the ground.  Is it your evidence that that's

Page 42127

 1     somehow a coincidence?

 2        A.   No, it's hard to answer this question.  It is suggestive.  I can

 3     give a more extensive answer.  It has to do with the democratic will of

 4     the Serb people.  I mean, it doesn't have to be a coincidence, and it may

 5     be a coincidence.  However, your question already implies answer.

 6             What does coincidence mean?  Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina are

 7     struggling for self-determination and for the creation of a Serb state.

 8     They are not struggling for ethnically pure territories.  No.  They

 9     fought for a multi-ethnic Yugoslavia.  It is the 12th of May.  Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina was recognised as independent so war only started, if we're

11     talking about this session.  So Serbs are struggling for a multi-ethnic

12     Yugoslavia.  That Serb state could not have been without minorities.

13     That is what they struggled for.

14             MR. TRALDI:  I have no further questions for this witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions in re-examination.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few, Your Honours.

18             Could we please have P7725 in e-court.  Paragraph 4.

19                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

20        Q.   The document that you were cross-examined on during my

21     colleague's cross-examination.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you say -- thank you.  It's corrected on the

23     transcript.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   If you remember, Professor Kovic, there was a question that had

Page 42128

 1     to do with what happened in Kijevo.  And at one point, on page 3 of

 2     today's transcript, you said that:  "If necessary, I can explain in

 3     greater detail what it was that happened in Kijevo."

 4             I would kindly ask you to tell the Trial Chamber why you felt it

 5     was necessary to say something like that.

 6        A.   In the report of Robert Donia, the importance of Kijevo is

 7     insisted upon as a turning point in the activity of the JNA and

 8     General Mladic himself.  Purportedly after that, the JNA started

 9     attacking, not only protecting.  If that were true, General Kukanjac

10     would have razed Sarajevo to the ground.  The JNA in Sarajevo and all the

11     attacks and humiliations against the JNA, what happened after Kijevo show

12     that Kijevo is of no significance, no special significance.

13     General Ninkovic was commander there, not General Mladic.  He carried out

14     his duty there.  And, number three -- Spiro Ninkovic, that is.  So it is

15     the month of August 1991, the JNA is being fired at from all conceivable

16     weaponry.  I already said that Vladimir Seks had ordered an all-out

17     attack against the JNA, so you have an armed force that is defending

18     itself in its own territory and defending the constitutional order of

19     that country, and that is it's constitutional duty.  That is what I

20     wished to say.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

22     be asked not to speak that closely into the microphone.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you stay a little bit away from the

24     microphone.  Not that much but to -- not coming too close.

25             Please proceed.

Page 42129

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] P7729.

 2        Q.   During the cross-examination today, you were asked about this

 3     document, Professor Kovic.  As can you see here, the date is the 8th of

 4     April, 1992.

 5             Let us please focus on paragraph 4.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So, in English, could we please

 7     move onto the next page and look at paragraph 4.

 8        Q.   In the second subparagraph, it says:  "During the afternoon,

 9     mortar fire was opened on the sector of Vratnik and the old part of the

10     city of Sarajevo by the members of the Territorial Defence of the

11     municipality of Pale.  After the intervention of the command of the 2nd

12     Military District, the fire stopped soon."

13             This is my question:  April 1992, the TO, what does that mean?

14     And under whose command is the TO in April 1992?

15        A.   TO is Territorial Defence.  It is very important because

16     Territorial Defences primarily in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina -

17     but also in the Republic of Croatia - became the nucleus of the armed

18     unlawful units so the Muslim and Croat forces grew out of that.

19             This document shows that the army - and it's General Kukanjac, he

20     is the commander of the 2nd District - he is separating the parties.  The

21     Prosecution is trying to prove through this that the Serbs were firing at

22     the city.  And it is the 8th of April, and the JNA is separating the

23     forces and fire is opened at the JNA in the territory of Sarajevo.

24     General Kukanjac as Alija Izetbegovic said on that day, when he was taken

25     prisoner and the day he spent at General Kukanjac's, it was the 3rd of

Page 42130

 1     May, he said that he saw tanks that the general could use to destroy the

 2     entire town and he never did that.  That is the role of General Kukanjac.

 3     And that is almost a year after Kijevo.  That is the situation in

 4     Sarajevo --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 6     stay away from the microphone, not come that close, and could he please

 7     slow down.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are again invited not to come too close

 9     to the microphone and also to slow down your answers.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would kindly ask you to answer the last

11     question which you didn't do.

12             Under whose command is the TO, the Territorial Defence, in

13     April 1992.  Short answer, please.  That was the answer of

14     Mr. Stojanovic.  That was the question of Mr. Stojanovic.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot give a precise answer to

16     that question because Territorial Defences were disintegrating into

17     individual fragments.  It was certain that they were not under the

18     control of the JNA.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you, Professor.  Thank you.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P7728 in

22     e-court now.

23        Q.   Professor, it's that intercept that you were asked about today.

24     The date is the 21st of April, 1992.  According to this typewritten text,

25     it is a conversation between Goran Saric and Mico Davidovic.  Judging by

Page 42131

 1     the names of these persons, could you try to assume - unless you know

 2     them personally - what ethnic community they belong to, what people?

 3        A.   Judging by their names and surnames, they're probably ethnic

 4     Serbs, although in our part of the world, sometimes it is a bit difficult

 5     to tell.  Davidovic, Saric.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Let us move onto the next page both in B/C/S and in

 7     English?

 8        A.   If you allow me.  Davidovic is a frequent Serb last name.  Saric,

 9     not exactly.  But it's very hard to say what the exact ethnic background

10     will be.

11        Q.   All right.

12        A.   Well, it's sort of --

13        Q.   If you follow this conversation, if this is the way it was,

14     Goran Saric says to Mico Davidovic:  "Well, for the time being, that's

15     why I am, fuck, I actually do nothing, and currently I cannot leave

16     Sarajevo."

17             And then it's conversation goes on.  Goran Saric again, three

18     lines down says:  "Well, we actually did nothing.  I didn't in the

19     beginning when I was forced to flee somewhere, damn it, from the

20     apartment.  So I am here ..."

21             This is my question:  In view of the time of this telegram, the

22     21st of April, 1992, did you have information about this, that Serbs were

23     not allowed to leave town at the time and that Serbs had to leave their

24     apartments where they had lived until then, as is mentioned here?

25        A.   Yes.  In that part of Sarajevo that was under the control of the

Page 42132

 1     Muslims, the Serbs were expelled from their apartments, or those who were

 2     not allowed to leave, they would pay for their life.  They would usually

 3     give their apartments in order to be able to survive.  Those who fled on

 4     their own from Muslim-controlled areas in Sarajevo were usually captured

 5     and liquidated in horrendous ways.

 6             It's interesting here that Davidovic doesn't know who Goran Saric

 7     is going to join.  He says here, Who are you with?  So you have people

 8     who still don't know who they're going to be with, who have a mixed

 9     ethnic background.  And since Yugoslavia, the multi-ethnic state of

10     Yugoslavia, was broken up, there are people who realistically don't know

11     where they belong, and that is the position of Serbs in Sarajevo as well.

12        Q.   I'm going to end in the following way.  Several times today

13     during your cross-examination you mentioned General Mladic's speech at

14     the assembly held on the 12th of May, 1992.  I just wish to draw your

15     attention to something; namely, that this document has already been

16     admitted into evidence in this case, as Judge Orie had indicated to you.

17     It is already in evidence here.

18             So my point is:  What was your point?  Why did you insist on that

19     part of General Mladic's speech at the assembly on the 12th of May, 1992?

20        A.   General Mladic, immediately after reading these six strategic

21     objectives of Republika Srpska that the Prosecutor insisted upon, he

22     replies by saying, That some things don't have to be achieved at all

23     costs.  That the Serb army should defend --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Previous translation continues] ... Witness, are you

25     reading the statement?

Page 42133

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  No.  No.  No.  No.

 2     No.  I'm trying to save your time, and I'm trying to tell you what it

 3     says there.  He says --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... it is in

 5     evidence.  So we can read that ourselves.  So could you please answer the

 6     question put to you by Mr. Stojanovic --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In two words, General Mladic

10     insists that the Serb army has to defend its homes and the graves of

11     their ancestors, as he put it, in a spirited way.  The Serb army is not

12     the Chinese army that they could take huge territories.  So this is the

13     position of a professional, a military professional.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Thank you, Professor Kovic, for your answers and thank you for

16     the efforts made for the Defence of General Mladic.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we thus conclude

18     the examination of our expert witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, any further questions?

20             MR. TRALDI:  No, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one final question.

22             You earlier said a couple of times that we apparently did not

23     want to hear what Mr. Mladic said on the 12th of May.  Since you now know

24     that it is in evidence before us, do you still insist that this Chamber

25     who has admitted the transcript of the 12th of May session into evidence,

Page 42134

 1     that we are unwilling to look at that evidence?

 2             I'm not asking for long explanations.  I just want to know from

 3     you whether you still insist that this Chamber, as you said, apparently

 4     does not want to see that evidence.

 5             No -- no speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until this moment, I was not

 7     allowed to say publicly before everyone what General Mladic said on

 8     12 May.  Now I've said it.

 9             Also --

10             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness,

11     Witness, it's, again, not an answer to my question.  And apparently you

12     consider that we could best use our time by hearing repetitious evidence,

13     what we heard already before.

14             I leave it to that.

15             We will adjourn.  You are --

16             Mr. Mladic, refrain from speaking aloud.  Mr. Mladic.

17     Mr. Mladic, we'll exclude you from the next session if you continue to

18     behave like you do at this moment.

19             Witness, no reason to look at Mr. Mladic, just address -- just

20     like in our direction.  We thank you very much for coming a long way to

21     The Hague, for having answered the questions which are put to you by the

22     parties and by the Bench, and even more than that.  We wish you a safe

23     return home again.

24             You may follow the usher.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 42135

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we will resume Thursday,

 3     the 3rd of December, 2.00 in the afternoon, but we'll not adjourn until

 4     I've thanked all those who have been so flexible to allow us to continue

 5     today in order to avoid that everyone would have to come back tomorrow

 6     for another session.  It's highly appreciated.

 7             We stand adjourned.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.33 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of

10                           December, 2015, at 2.00 p.m.