Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 42287

 1                           Tuesday, 8 December 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             No preliminaries, therefore the witness can be escorted in the

12     courtroom.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Dodik.

15             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that

17     you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

18     beginning of your testimony.

19             Mr. Tieger will now continue his cross-examination.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           WITNESS:  MILORAD DODIK [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

24        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Dodik, and everyone in the courtroom.

25             Mr. Dodik, just before we adjourned yesterday, you had been shown

Page 42288

 1     a portion of a transcript from a December 1991 session of the SFRY

 2     Presidency in connection with my question to you about the lists of steps

 3     or moves that Mr. Karadzic had and waited for opportune moments to

 4     implement.  You indicated that you did not attend that Presidency

 5     session.  I wanted then to move to 65 ter 02390, page 74 in the English

 6     and page 57 of the Serbian.  And that, Mr. Dodik, is the 38th Session of

 7     the Republika Srpska Assembly.  And at the bottom of the page in both

 8     languages, Mr. Karadzic says the following:

 9             "Let us use Alija's mistake to increase the price of wine,

10     remember how all the SAOs," that is the Serbian Autonomous Regions, "and

11     all those measures before the war always took place following Alija's

12     mistakes; there were 9-10 actions that we carried out," we turn to the

13     next page in English.  I know we're about to turn to the next page in

14     Serbian, "that we carried them out.  We brain-stormed them all together,

15     however, we did not pull all nine moves straight away but we carried them

16     out after Alija made a mistake, it is then that we would make a move and

17     the Muslims would curse his mother afterwards and not ours."

18             So do you remember these remarks of Mr. Karadzic at the

19     38th Assembly, Mr. Dodik?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Do you know whether you were at that session

22     or not?

23        A.   I only see here that it's Mr. Karadzic speaking.  I don't know

24     what session it was and where it was held, but that's included in the

25     minutes.  But I don't remember.  I really don't know and I cannot say

Page 42289

 1     only on the basis of this whether I was present or not.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I would tender that --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I don't remember.  I don't

 4     remember any of this.  And to me it seems just like empty praise and

 5     nothing else.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dodik, would you refrain from commenting on it.

 7     You don't remember.  You've answered the question.  There's no need to

 8     comment as you did.

 9             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 02390 receives number P7762.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

14        Q.   The moves and steps that Dr. Karadzic was referring to at the

15     38th Session and also at the SFRY Presidency included most of the major

16     steps on the path toward the establishment of the republic, that is, the

17     association of communities, Serbian Autonomous Region, establishment of

18     the Assembly, and so on.  Isn't that right?

19        A.   It was such a time that certainly we did make certain moves, and

20     they were completely legitimate from the view of establishing

21     Republika Srpska.  Since Yugoslavia broke up using the people's right to

22     self-determination, which was set out in the constitution of SFRY, the

23     Serbs were entitled to have their own territorial organisation.  That was

24     how it was understood and how I understood it.  So moves of this

25     character constituting an entity were fully legitimate, but they were

Page 42290

 1     always a reaction to something else.  That's also true.

 2        Q.   Well, that's how we began the discussion, Mr. Dodik, and I put to

 3     you that what you're calling a reaction and what Dr. Karadzic liked to

 4     refer to as a reaction was, in fact, the implementation of pre-planned

 5     steps.  And again in that connection, let's turn to P6999.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for that, Mr. Tieger --

 7             MR. TIEGER:  And -- yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- with P7762, I'd forgotten to ask you how many

 9     pages there were and there were 96, I see now.  Could you reduce that to

10     the portion that you --

11             MR. TIEGER:  Of course.  Yeah.  And in circumstances like that,

12     I -- it's -- it's taken as a given that we will reduce it to the

13     appropriate portion, but I'm sorry I didn't mention it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But of course the Chamber should know --

15             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- what will be admitted into evidence, and at this

17     moment you have 96 pages so that will be reduced.  We hear from you in

18     the next two days or perhaps even today.

19             Meanwhile, we have the document you called up on our screens.

20     Please proceed.

21             MR. TIEGER:

22        Q.   Mr. Dodik, this is an interview given by Dr. Karadzic on the 6th

23     of January, 1995, to Srpska Oslobodjenje.  And at page 3 in the English

24     and page 2 in Serbian, at the upper portion of the column at the far

25     left, Dr. Karadzic stated the following:

Page 42291

 1             "We had a list of the actions and steps to take but we always

 2     waited for the Muslims to make a mistake; and after they made one, we

 3     created a union of municipalities and the Serbian autonomous areas next,

 4     followed by the regions and eventually our assembly and, finally,

 5     republic."

 6             Mr. Dodik, that's another reflection of Dr. Karadzic's repeated

 7     insistence and emphasis on the fact that he had all the steps prepared in

 8     advance and he waited for opportune moments to implement them; correct?

 9        A.   I did not have such an impression.  I think that this is just a

10     PR explanation given by Karadzic at the time.  I had no impression that

11     there was an organised plan, especially in terms of municipalities.  I

12     think that municipalities were established by the people on the ground

13     rather than that it was anything pre-planned.  It was only later that

14     policies that were a response to current events were promoted, and I

15     think that this was fully legitimate.  In any case, both the community of

16     municipalities and forming of the republic later on in view of the

17     situation that the Serbian people were in, I think that this would have

18     been done even if Mr. Karadzic had not been the president.  That was --

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... the question is not whether

20     you consider it to have been justified or legitimate or not, just whether

21     or not that was the case, and I think you've addressed your position on

22     that.

23             Now, you said you considered this to be some kind of public

24     relations gesture in 1995, but this Court has received evidence that, for

25     example, in January of 1992 Dr. Karadzic, in a telephone conversation

Page 42292

 1     with Nenad Stevandic, said:

 2             "We have all the moves in the envelopes..." and then said "we

 3     have plans for everything.  They," referring to some of the local Krajina

 4     leaders, "just keep running ahead like oxen after salt."

 5             That's D857, pages 6 through 7, but let me show you a similar

 6     discussion between Dr. Karadzic and Nenad Stevandic that's 65 ter

 7     1D02696, again a conversation that took place well in advance of 1995

 8     when the steps were implemented --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you give the number again.  There's six digits

10     on the transcript.

11             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you give the number again, please.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, sorry.  1D02696.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             MR. TIEGER:

16        Q.   This is a conversation between Nenad Stevandic and

17     Radovan Karadzic that took place in August of 1991, and on page 1 in

18     Serbian and page 1 -- page 1 in English and in page 1 going onto page 2

19     in Serbian.  Let's go to page 2, I think, of the Serbian.  Stevandic

20     says:

21             "Well, Andjelko and Vojo are going for it full tilt quite

22     recklessly.  Brdjanin would like to put a stop to it, have a bit of

23     consultation and reasoning."

24             Dr. Karadzic tells Stevandic:

25             "Tell them not to do anything stupid on any account because then

Page 42293

 1     we are accused of these stupidities."

 2             Goes on to explain that Alija doesn't have any arguments against

 3     the Serbs.  He says that he doesn't want to reach an understanding with

 4     the Serbs, so don't provide him with any arguments.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  We move on to page 2.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   And then Karadzic assures Stevandic:

 7             "We'll do everything Vojo and Brdjo think but after the failure

 8     of the agreements that Alija will bring about, we'll accuse Alija for

 9     this failure."

10             So, Mr. Dodik, contrary to the suggestion that what Dr. Karadzic

11     said in 1995 - simply a PR exercise - this is a contemporaneous

12     reflection of his assurance to his followers that he had the plans and

13     they would be implemented at the opportune moment; right?

14        A.   Well, what Karadzic is saying really made sense at the time.  It

15     was quite rational.  As you see, he is saying that nothing stupid should

16     be done and that no one should take any particular measures and this

17     should be positive, of course.

18        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... we're clear on the

19     relationship between Karadzic and Stevandic, you were asked about -- or

20     you've mentioned Mr. Stevandic in your tape-recorded interview in July of

21     2003, and that's 65 ter 33531.  And here was the exchange that followed

22     and what you said about Stevandic.  The question was:

23             "Now, this Nenad Stevandic, a 23-year-old medical student and the

24     president of the Sokol Society --"

25             And you said:

Page 42294

 1             "Yes, I know the name.  He was very -- I know him.  He was very

 2     present at the manifestations of all sorts that we're asking to get

 3     support for this fight that they were talking about all the time and he

 4     acted in co-ordination with all these people who --"

 5        A.   But excuse me, I don't have it here.

 6        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... quite right.  Please, let's

 7     turn to page 11 of the English and 13 of the Serbian and on both pages it

 8     appears at the bottom third of the page.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not 33531?

10             MR. TIEGER:  Of 33531.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask something still?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You may ask something if it is an appropriate

14     question.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, everything is appropriate.

16     I'm not sure when and with whom this was recorded.  Who was I having this

17     interview with?  In 1993, you recorded me ...

18             MR. TIEGER:

19        Q.   Mr. Dodik, this is the same interview we looked at and went

20     through yesterday at some length, the one that Mr. Grady -- [Overlapping

21     speakers] ...

22        A.   Oh yes, but how can it be from 1993 then?

23        Q.   I'm sorry, 2003 was the date --

24        A.   Just a second.  Just a second.  You said -- oh 2003.  All right.

25             MR. TIEGER:  All right.  Can we move one more page on the

Page 42295

 1     Serbian, please.  Sorry, Madam Registrar, it's the page that has the ERN

 2     at the top L0102603, so should be ...

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That seems to be the number.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  And one more page, please.

 5        Q.   Your answer begins down ... at the bottom of that page and

 6     continues on the top.  Oh ... no, it's still not right.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  One more attempt at that.  Can I see the ERN on

 8     this, please, 2602 -- turn back to 2602, please.  There we are.

 9        Q.   And it begins with the first question that's by the name "PG."

10             "Now this Nenad Stevandic, a 23-year-old medical student and the

11     president of the Sokol Society --"

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We move in English to the next page.

13             MR. TIEGER:

14        Q.   "Yes, I know the name.  He was very -- I know him.  He was very

15     present at the manifestations of all sorts that were asking to get

16     support for this fight that they were talking about all the time, and he

17     acted in co-ordination with all these people who were in the police

18     and ... the authorities."

19             And then Mr. Grady asked:

20             "Did you know his relationship between Radovan Karadzic, himself

21     and Radovan Karadzic."

22             "I know that there -- their relationship was very close, and,

23     since people in Banja Luka knew that he was closely linked with Karadzic,

24     I think that gave Stevandic a great deal of power in Banja Luka."

25             And do you stand by those answers in July of 2003, Mr. Dodik?

Page 42296

 1        A.   Yes, that's how that looked.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  And I would also tender 1D02696, the document

 3     we looked at a moment earlier.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D02696 receives number P7763.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. TIEGER:

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Dodik, yesterday you were asked toward the end of your

 9     examination-in-chief about the assembly session at which the six

10     strategic goals were discussed, and you spoke briefly about the goals as

11     political goals.  Then you were then asked about any kind of plan, oral

12     or written, for Muslims to be -- Muslims and Croats to be expelled from

13     territories under Serbian control, and you said that it was not a goal,

14     not even an unwritten one.  I want to ask you a few questions about those

15     issues.

16             Now, first of all, you must have been aware that the strategic

17     objectives were being implemented by the Army of Republika Srpska;

18     correct?

19        A.   The army had its role that was provided by the law in the

20     constitution.  It's defined there what the role of the army was.  Of

21     course, in every country, in every state, the army implements the

22     decisions of the highest organs and bodies, first of all, the legislative

23     ones and the parliament.  So in the broadest terms, yes.  The army in

24     Republika Srpska primarily had to defend the people in the territory of

25     Republika Srpska from the Muslim aggression and later the joint

Page 42297

 1     Muslim/Croat aggression, and that was the primary goal of the army.  That

 2     was how I understood it and how I saw it.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Can we have 65 ter 11809, please.

 4        Q.   And this is an interview in the beginning of February 1993 in

 5     Novi Glas of General Milovanovic.  For your benefit, Mr. Dodik, if you

 6     can direct your attention to the third paragraph down on the next page in

 7     English, in the left column, sorry -- and it's the -- the third

 8     column ...

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Can we -- can you scroll farther to the left,

10     please.  Thank you.  Now this third column.  Down -- the -- the first

11     column left third row down.  That's it.

12        Q.   There, General Milovanovic states:

13             "So far, our army has achieved four strategic goals, that is, the

14     tasks.  It has fulfilled four tasks, thus enabling the political

15     leadership in the country to work.  We have created the basis so that

16     everybody knows that we exist, regardless of whether somebody recognises

17     us or not, and that is the basis from which we embark on the

18     negotiations."

19             And that, Mr. Dodik, is a reflection of the army's active

20     implementation of the strategic goals which were seen as advancing the

21     Bosnian Serb bargaining position and negotiations; correct?

22        A.   That's what the armies still do in the world to this day, so it's

23     no wonder.  The armies intervene in Syria even today and then the

24     negotiations follow.  So certainly it's the legitimate task of the army,

25     and I think that Mr. Milovanovic has really put it well, and I support

Page 42298

 1     him in what he said.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I would tender 65 ter 11809.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 11809 receives number P7764.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. TIEGER:

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Dodik, with respect to what was encompassed by the

 8     strategic objectives or how they were to be implemented, you did not

 9     participate in the direct formulation of the strategic objectives with

10     President Karadzic and General Mladic when they met on that subject, did

11     you?

12        A.   I was not with them personally, but I was at assembly sessions

13     which decided it; and I don't even know when the two of them met, if they

14     did.

15        Q.   And you weren't present at meetings when Dr. Karadzic and

16     Mr. Krajisnik met with General Mladic and the corps commanders to discuss

17     the implementation of the strategic objectives; correct?

18        A.   No, I wasn't.

19        Q.   And you didn't receive the directives that followed those

20     meetings; right?

21        A.   I attended assembly sessions and I know approximately what was

22     discussed.  Of course, there are all documents about it.  I did not

23     receive directives from anyone.  At the time, I was an independent MP in

24     the assembly as I told you before.  I had only contact with the group of

25     deputies in the assembly.  I did not participate in any other forms of

Page 42299

 1     decision-making.

 2        Q.   Well, let's turn to the some of the assembly sessions in that

 3     case.

 4             During the course of those assembly sessions, Mr. Dodik, did you

 5     hear any indications of an intention or a goal or the process of

 6     expelling Muslims and Croats?  Any hints about that at all during those

 7     sessions, sir?

 8        A.   There was talk and discussions about the war operations and the

 9     conflict that was going on, but I never heard that as a discussion about

10     ethnic cleansing.  All the time, from the moment the war began, there

11     were constant demands in the assembly to clearly define goals and to have

12     in mind very clearly what the purpose of that war was.  Most of these

13     demands came from deputies -- from constituencies that the Serbs had to

14     flee, such as the valley of the Neretva river, where people who had to

15     leave their homes --

16        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... the question is not:  Tell

17     me about all the things you did hear notice assembly sessions in

18     connection with the war.  The question was whether you heard any hints or

19     suggestions at all during those sessions about an intention or goal or

20     the process of moving or expelling Muslims and Croats?

21        A.   I've said this.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now, you mentioned earlier that you were present at the

23     assembly session at which the strategic goals were announced.  I take it

24     that's a reference to the 16th Assembly Session on May 12th, 1992.

25        A.   No, no -- yes, the 12th of May.  That session was held in

Page 42300

 1     Banja Luka; right?  I think I was there.

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  There was no need to interrupt Mr. Tieger.  Yes.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. TIEGER:

 6        Q.   Well, this Chamber has received in evidence the transcript from

 7     the 16th Session at which the strategic objectives were enunciated and

 8     explained by Dr. Karadzic, and the VRS was established, General Mladic

 9     named as chief of the Main Staff, and so on.  After Dr. Karadzic

10     enunciated and explained the objectives, do you recall hearing any

11     mention of or discussion about the "conquests" that were necessary in any

12     places where Serbs were not a majority?

13        A.   I don't remember any such thing absolutely.

14        Q.   All right.  And specifically do you remember reference by the

15     delegate from Brcko about the need for conquests, in particular in Brcko?

16        A.   Brcko was an important communication hub.  I think it was a

17     legitimate goal, but not from the point of view of ethnic cleansing but

18     from the point of view of compactness and communication.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, it's a bit unclear whether this is a --

20     whether you heard about -- whether you remember a reference by the

21     delegate from Brcko about the need for conquests.

22             Could you please answer that question directly.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge, it was a long

24     time ago.  I did not review all those transcripts.  I suppose there was

25     such talk.

Page 42301

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the only question was whether you remember;

 2     apparently you do not.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. TIEGER:

 5        Q.   Do you remember hearing any representative express satisfaction

 6     that the strategic objectives confirmed that Muslims already removed from

 7     a Muslim-majority municipality would not be coming back?

 8        A.   Possibly, but again I don't remember.  A long time has passed.

 9     It's possible though that there was such talk.

10        Q.   This Chamber has already received -- has also received in

11     evidence the transcript of the very next session held in late July 1992 -

12     that's P4581 - and, in particular, has received evidence of Mr. Dukic's

13     remarks --

14             MR. TIEGER:  For the benefit of the parties, that's at page 71 in

15     English and page 72 in Serbian.

16        Q.   -- referring to Birac and noting:

17             "If we move further, there is Birac which is 100 to

18     108 kilometres away and has 120.000 Muslims.  That is how many there

19     were, but I hope that has at least been halved.  And --"

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's best to --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I think we -- Mr. Dukic, at least visible, is

22     starting speaking at the bottom of this page in English.  Is it the next

23     page where we can find it?

24             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, next page in English, certainly, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And are we on the right page in B/C/S?

Page 42302

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Start on the right page and we also have to move to

 2     the next page.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  In the middle of the page from where you read, I

 4     think.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Next page in Serbian page, the one marked 75.  One

 6     more page in English, please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud.

 8             Yes, now we are on the right page in English at least.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

10        Q.   This is a short quote, Mr. Dukic -- excuse me, Mr. Dodik.

11     Mr. Dukic expressing the point that Birac had 120.000 Muslims, at least

12     that's how many there were, but expressing the hope that that had at

13     least been halved.

14             Did you hear that expression from Mr. Dukic who was the president

15     of the SDS Executive Board and the co-ordinator of the Birac SAO?

16        A.   No.  I've said that I wasn't a member of the SDS, and I couldn't

17     have heard that.  I did not hear it from Mr. Dukic.  I don't remember.  I

18     really don't remember.

19        Q.   Well, let's turn to another assembly session.  Perhaps you recall

20     this comment then.

21             MR. TIEGER:  65 ter 02362.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dodik, I'm a bit puzzled by your observation you

23     couldn't have heard it because you were not a SDS member.  This is an

24     assembly session which is not exclusively for SDS members.  So therefore,

25     I'm puzzled by your explanation as why you couldn't have heard it, apart

Page 42303

 1     from whether you did hear it.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Coming up on --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because Mr. Tieger said that

 4     Rajko Dukic was the president of the Executive Board of the SDS, so on

 5     those grounds I couldn't, whereas at the assembly sessions --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... Mr. Tieger was quoting

 7     from an assembly session, a quote from a person who had functions within

 8     the SDS as well.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   All right.  What we have on the screen now is a tape-recording of

12     the 22nd Session of the RS Assembly held on the 23rd and 24th of

13     November, 1992.

14             MR. TIEGER:  If we could turn to page 78 in the English and page

15     76 in the Serbian.

16        Q.   We see the remarks of Mr. Malojevic directed to the proposed Law

17     on Citizenship, and if we look at the second paragraph in English and the

18     third paragraph down in -- in the -- in the second -- the first

19     paragraph in Serbian, Mr. Malojevic makes this point:

20             "Second, the citizenship of Republika Srpska shall be acquired

21     among other things by birth in the territory of Republika Srpska.  This

22     refers to all the Muslims and Croats we expelled, in reality they are

23     citizens of Republika Srpska ..."

24             Now, Mr. Dodik, that's an indication, isn't it, that -- of an

25     intention or goal or process of removing Muslims and Croats?

Page 42304

 1        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't even remember who that gentleman

 2     was.  How could I know what he said?  I don't know what was adopted in

 3     the form of law later.

 4        Q.   Well, do you recall, as we see later on in that page, that on the

 5     basis of Mr. Malojevic's remarks that proposed Law on Citizenship was

 6     sent back for review?

 7        A.   That's what it says.  Why would I have to remember all that?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dodik, you don't have to remember anything.  If

 9     you remember, you should tell us what you remember; if you don't

10     remember, tell us.

11             MR. TIEGER:  And I would tender that excerpt, it is part of

12     P7196 -- oh, sorry.  My mistake.  This is already part of that existing

13     excerpted portion.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So nothing --

15             MR. TIEGER:  Correct --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- needed to be done.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. TIEGER:

19        Q.   Let me turn, then, to 65 ter 02382, another assembly session,

20     Mr. Dodik, this one the 34th.  And if we could turn to page 33 in the

21     English and 31 in the B/C/S, in the Serbian, we find the remarks of

22     Mr. Milinkovic.  And he appears to be expressing satisfaction about what

23     has been achieved and reminding others of that.  And he says, in about

24     the third sentence of his remarks:

25             "Gentlemen, I would like to hear which municipality, let alone

Page 42305

 1     region, is loosing a bigger part of the territory than gaining compared

 2     to the percentage of Muslims and Croats who live [sic] there."

 3             "I understand from Herzegovina that it is painful to lose the

 4     Neretva valley and part are the Nevesinje and Trebinje municipalities,

 5     but I never heard anyone saying they were pleased that 30 per cent of

 6     Muslims in Trebinje municipality was wiped out, same in Gacko,

 7     20 per cent in Nevesinje, 20 per cent in Bileca, that the hydroelectric

 8     plant on Trebisnjica and electric power plant in Gacko are left to

 9     Serbs."

10             And he goes on to ask:

11             "Should we be this dissatisfied?"

12             And then turning to page 34 of the English and 32 of the Serbian

13     he continues:

14             "Gentlemen, there is no Serbian state in Bosnian pot without

15     gradual depopulation and relocating.  If we want ethnically pure Serbian

16     state, and we do, don't we" --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not see the text in

18     the B/C/S.

19             MR. TIEGER:  That should be in the middle of the page on 32,

20     approximately -- well, it's hard to measure the lines, but beginning.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  B/C/S we have page 31.

22             MR. TIEGER:  It should be 32.  I thought I indicated we should

23     move to 32 -- oh, it's e-court page 32.  I'm sorry, but I realise they

24     almost correspond to the hard copy pagination.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I thought we had it on the last page, but I'm not

Page 42306

 1     quite sure but I saw the ...

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Now it's the wrong page -- this is hard -- this is

 3     e-court page 32, hard copy page 31.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  One page back therefore.

 5             I do see approximately in the middle at the last word of a line a

 6     reference to "gentlemen."

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Correct.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Approximately just above the middle of the page.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             And thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Again the quote is:

12             "Gentlemen, there is no Serbian state in Bosnian pot without

13     gradual depopulation and relocating.  If we want ethnically pure Serbian

14     state - and we do, don't we? - if we all know and emphasise that we

15     cannot live with them, then we have to realise that these draft maps are

16     offering exactly that and there has to be relocation."

17             Now do you assert that you didn't hear this reference to the

18     desirability of Muslim departures and what had happened to that point?

19        A.   I think it would be fair, Your Honours, for the Prosecutor, when

20     putting to me these transcripts to first confirm my presence at these

21     sessions so that we can discuss it.  I don't even know who this man was.

22     I don't think he was even a deputy, a delegate.  It's possible that some

23     people who were not deputies still spoke at some assembly sessions, but I

24     don't remember this man.  And especially if it's written in the

25     transcript that I was not present at that session, I don't think it would

Page 42307

 1     be fair for you to question me about it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if you have any recollection about your

 3     presence, please tell us.  You think -- you've heard the date, isn't it;

 4     and otherwise Mr. Tieger will repeat it.  If you say, I don't remember

 5     that I was present, please tell us, no problem.

 6             Mr. Tieger, the date of the assembly session was?

 7             MR. TIEGER: [Microphone not activated]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please put on your microphone.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  27th through 29th of August, 1993, and the 30th of

10     September, 1993.

11        Q.   And just to be clear --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Locations?

13             MR. TIEGER:  Oh.  Look at the cover.  Jahorina.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you've got the dates, you have got the place.

15     Do you have any recollection as whether you were present or not?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked the Prosecutor to read from

17     the transcript whether I was at that session --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, I

19     asked you a question.  Would you please answer that question.  Do you

20     remember that you were present at that meeting on those days, assembly

21     meetings, held in Jahorina.

22             Would you please answer that question.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked you that.  There were

24     several sessions at Jahorina, several sessions.  I can't confirm whether

25     I was at this particular one, but it's written in the transcript.  Why

Page 42308

 1     are you trying to run away from it?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We're not running away from anything, but we're

 3     insisting on you answering questions that are put to you.  So you don't

 4     remember specifically whether you were present at these meetings.

 5             Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   And just before we break, I want to look at one more session, the

 8     37th Session of the Assembly of Republika Srpska; that's 65 ter 02388.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you, just at the outset, tell the date and

10     the location to avoid any further questions about that.  Obviously 10th

11     of January, 1994.

12             MR. TIEGER:

13        Q.   As His Honour Judge Fluegge just indicated, that session was held

14     on the 10th of January, 1994, and in -- in Pale, Mr. Dodik.

15             And if we turn to page 110 of the English and page 82 in the

16     Serbian, we see Dr. Karadzic speaking and he says the following -- and

17     this is ... yeah, you should see that toward the upper portion of your

18     page and this appears just about the middle of the page in English.

19             "I know that at the time when we had some unfinished tasks

20     related to military actions, I just prayed to God that nothing be

21     accepted because we had some tasks to complete."

22             And then he says it is a good time for us to make peace now.  And

23     then explains:

24             "I was worried a bit that we would not be able to get more than

25     50 per cent of the territory that we chose.  For example, in Doboj the

Page 42309

 1     Muslims were in the relative majority.  At the census before the last

 2     one, we were in the relative majority, but this census speaks about a

 3     relative Muslim majority.  Nowadays Doboj is almost 100 per cent Serbian.

 4     The people from mountains moved in the town, and so on.  We are not out

 5     of danger, we are in great danger, and it is for our benefit that all

 6     this ended.  The end does not suit the Muslims."

 7             So, Mr. Dodik, when you indicated earlier that you hadn't heard

 8     anything at assembly sessions that provided an indication of an intention

 9     or goal or process of removing Muslims and Croats, did you have in mind

10     the remarks of Dr. Karadzic that there had been unfinished tasks related

11     to military actions and specifically ones that resulted in the

12     demographic change in Doboj from being a majority to being almost

13     100 per cent Serbian?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Before the witness answers that question --

15             Witness, do you have any recollection as having been present at

16     the assembly session of the 10th of January, 1994, in Pale?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, I did not expect this.

18     At Pale there were at least four or five sessions.  I can't remember the

19     dates, and I asked you kindly when putting this document to me to see in

20     the transcript whether my name is there or not.  This way, you are

21     maltreating me.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not maltreating you.  In these transcripts,

23     there's no systematic --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean the Prosecutor.

25             MR. TIEGER:  [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 42310

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Neither is the Prosecutor.  You said there were at

 2     least five.  Do you remember, were you present at all five in Pale?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.  I remember that

 4     I attended some of them.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

 7             MR. TIEGER:

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Dodik, I am testing your claim about what could be

 9     gleaned about the existence of any intention or plan or process of

10     removing Muslims from what was said at the assembly sessions, so I am

11     asking you what sorts of remarks at assembly sessions you had in mind

12     when you said that.  And now I'm asking you if you remembered this

13     particular remark by Dr. Karadzic when you asserted that there were no

14     indications of such an intention or goal or process at the assembly

15     sessions.

16        A.   I don't remember.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger --

18             MR. TIEGER:

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. TIEGER:  I would tender that excerpt, and I see it's time for

21     the break.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Before you give that a number, I also -- to keep it

24     chronological, I should also tender the previous excerpts from the

25     34th Session.

Page 42311

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you repeat the number.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  It should be added to P2508.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The previous one or this one?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  The ones from the 34th, which was 65 ter 02382, that

 5     should be added to P2508 and this --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Too quick.

 7             Madam Registrar, is that clear to you what should be added?

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry --

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, I'm sure the Prosecution will

10     notify me of the pages when they're uploaded and put in e-court.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Right, yeah.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  And now I would tender these excerpts from

14     65 ter 02388.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Still to be excerpted?

16             MR. TIEGER:  Correct.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Madam Registrar, would you reserve a number for

18     the excerpts still to be uploaded.

19             MR. TIEGER:  And that will be added to -- it should be added to

20     P3076.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So it still has to be uploaded and then should be

22     added to --

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, I would appreciate

24     notification.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Of course.

Page 42312

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  And if I may indicate that I will be concluding very

 3     quickly after we return, so for the benefit of my colleagues and the

 4     Bench.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Very quickly, Mr. Tieger, meaning 15 minutes?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I don't think it will be more than 15 minutes, but

 7     in that area of -- I mean, in -- I won't --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  I won't be using my -- the full amount of my

10     allotted time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             Then, Mr. Dodik, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes because

13     we'll take a break and we will resume at five minutes to 11.00.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome back, Mr. Dodik.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. TIEGER:

24        Q.   Mr. Dodik, it doesn't really change the question of what you had

25     in mind when you said there were no indications at the assembly sessions,

Page 42313

 1     but I did attempt to track down assembly session records in response to

 2     your point, and I wanted to show you 65 ter 2870 which is an attendance

 3     lists of deputies from the 16th Session through the 35th Session, I

 4     believe.

 5             And if we look at item 21 we see your name, and it indicates you

 6     as -- and this indicates the number of the sessions from which the deputy

 7     was absent - and a funny way of putting it - indicates that you were

 8     absent from the 17th Session -- actually, seems to list that twice; from

 9     the 20th -- the 22nd Session; and from the second part of the 34th, which

10     has about three different periods but the question I asked you about was

11     from the first part of that session.

12             So if that clarifies for you whether or not the records indicate

13     your presence or absence at some of the sessions we discussed, there it

14     is.

15             MR. TIEGER:  And I'm happy to tender that, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar --

17             MR. TIEGER:  Oh, before we do, could we turn to page 2 in the

18     English, before we leave this document.  I just wanted to look at one

19     item.

20        Q.   And at number 55, we see, again, Djokoslav Milinkovic who I

21     believe you said was not a deputy but who, in fact, appears to be a

22     deputy?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  In all fairness to the witness I think that he said

24     that he thought he was not even a deputy.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Fair enough.

Page 42314

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But didn't give certain information.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  So I tender that document.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, just one observation.  Mr. Dodik did not

 7     mention Milinkovic but Milojevic.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That would be another -- I do remember it was I

 9     think on the same -- we'll check that, I mean ...

10             MR. TIEGER:  And with regard to the 30s -- oh.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you first -- you were tendering it.

12             Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 20870 receives number P7765.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P7765 is admitted into evidence.

15             MR. TIEGER:

16        Q.   And --

17             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   -- with regard to the 37th Session, which we discussed and I

19     think was also the subject of your inquiry about whether or not you were

20     present and whether or not you spoke, in fact, Mr. Dodik, the records

21     indicate -- a record of the session indicates that you did speak at the

22     early part of the session.  However, if we turn to 65 ter 2388, in

23     English page 65 and Serbian page 49, the chairman, Mr. Krajisnik,

24     indicates:

25             "At that stage in the proceedings we have to do a roll-call in

Page 42315

 1     order to see how many deputies are present."

 2             He starts indicating how many are gone.  Nedjo Gavric is done,

 3     Milorad Kuzmanovic was feeling bad, et cetera, and then after the

 4     notation about polemics from the seat he says:

 5             "I have to note this down into the minutes because we agreed that

 6     without a consultation - is Dodik here? - if you allow me I would say

 7     something that I'm entitled to.  It is very irresponsible behaviour of

 8     the deputies to leave the session self-willingly because it very often

 9     happens that we do not have a quorum present.  It is my suggestion that

10     we conclude that Gavric left without permission and Dodik has well."

11             So it appears that you were gone by that point in the session,

12     Mr. Dodik, and the portion of Mr. Karadzic's remarks that I directed your

13     attention to earlier occurred after that point in the session.  So if

14     that answers your questions about attendance.

15             I have a couple of additional assembly sessions I wanted to draw

16     your attention to.  This Chamber has received in evidence some of

17     Dr. Karadzic's remarks at the 53rd Assembly Session and that's 65 ter --

18     that's P4584, where Mr. Karadzic said:

19             "We've drawn some maps into which a part of the Neretva valley

20     could be integrated and, of course, access to the sea, the Drina, should

21     be clean.  These are all priorities.  The corridor must be wide."

22             And then if we could turn to 65 ter 02380 at page 49 in the

23     English and page 40 in the Serbian --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat the number.

25             MR. TIEGER:  02380.

Page 42316

 1        Q.   And these are the beginning of Mr. Krajisnik's remarks in the

 2     middle of the page in English and toward the bottom quarter of the page

 3     in Serbian.  And Mr. Krajisnik says --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think -- please check if that is the right page

 5     in English.  At the middle of the page Mr. Kupresanin is speaking.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  No, it's Mr. Krajisnik, chairman, and he says:

 7             "Vojo Kupresanin has asked me" --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, yes, I missed that.  Thank you.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   Mr. Krajisnik says:

11             "Vojo Kupresanin has asked me a question.  I believe that there

12     is one thing that we must understand.  We have strategic aims and how

13     angry do you think the Herzegovinians will be because the Neretva is not

14     our border and how angry they will be because the Drina is not clear and

15     how angry they will be because a part of Sarajevo is no more?"

16             Now, Mr. Dodik, those are both expressions at the assembly

17     sessions about the need to have a clean Drina area which included

18     Muslim-majority areas, Muslim-majority municipalities, within that area;

19     right?

20        A.   Of course there were Muslims in Podrinje, just like there were

21     Serbs in Sarajevo.  The war produced the same result on both sides

22     practically, and it was that people had to leave their original places of

23     residence and move to some other locations.  If a calculation were made,

24     you could see that the number of people on either side was practically

25     identical, so we cannot say that it was the Serbs who expelled the Serbs

Page 42317

 1     from Sarajevo; but I think that from the beginning we could have worked

 2     in a decent manner.  You can see the evidence of my presence here.  I

 3     feel that you wanted to manipulate me by presenting me quotations, noting

 4     my absence.  I'm addressing myself to the Prosecutor.  I did not attend

 5     some sessions but you asked me about them.  I --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, when

 7     answering a question, you're giving an answer to a question put to you by

 8     the Prosecutor and you're addressing the Chamber, and I invited you

 9     earlier to refrain from the kind of commentaries you did.  I do that

10     again.

11             You may continue.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MR. TIEGER:

14        Q.   Mr. Dodik --

15        A.   So I can answer some questions if I remember and if I was

16     present, but to be expected to comment on something that was said when I

17     was absent, this I can't do.

18             As far as this is concerned, well, Krajisnik himself has said

19     everything.  I don't remember those speeches of his.  The sessions were

20     always tense, very emotional.  Many people took the floor and the

21     atmosphere was very different, if you compare what was being said at the

22     beginning in 1991 and then later in 1995.  As a rule, it depended on the

23     developments on the ground.

24        Q.   Well, Mr. Dodik, first of all, you had an opportunity to look at

25     the assembly sessions and in the attendance record that we reviewed,

Page 42318

 1     which appeared to reflect your attendance at the 33rd Session.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  But in any event, I tender that excerpt

 3     Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  And it should be added to P7359 [Realtime transcript

 6     read in error "P7539"].

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, that is sufficient information for

 8     you that this excerpt uploaded under this 65 ter number should be added

 9     to P7539 -- then I read from the ... 7539.  And you're instructed to do

10     so.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. TIEGER:

14        Q.   Mr. Dodik, you just said that people had to leave their original

15     places of residence and move to some other locations.  That's because in

16     the case of Muslims from Podrinje that the Bosnian Serb -- Serbs claimed

17     that area, including Muslim-majority municipalities, as reflected in the

18     comments by Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik, that the Drina must be clean;

19     isn't that right?

20        A.   You're manipulating again.  I said that the Serbs from Sarajevo

21     had also left --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... you may answer

23     a question.  I said again and again you should refrain from accusation of

24     manipulation.  And I also instructed you not to seek eye contact with the

25     Defence, which you did several times now this morning.  Would you

Page 42319

 1     please -- please be aware that by this behaviour that may have an effect

 2     on the evaluation of your evidence.  You're here and we'd like to hear

 3     your evidence and to fully consider it.  Would you please keep that in

 4     mind.  I said so three minutes ago, I said so ten minutes ago, so now I

 5     expect you to refrain from doing the same.

 6             You may answer the question.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember these speeches by

 8     Krajisnik.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   Well, you -- the strategic objectives and specifically strategic

11     objective number 3, and the need for the -- a clean Drina included

12     Muslim-majority municipalities like, for example, Gorazde; right?

13        A.   That wasn't how I understood it.  It was not set down anywhere

14     when I took part in deciding on that and in discussions.

15        Q.   Well, let's look at another excerpt from the 33rd Assembly.

16     Again, 65 ter 02380.  Page 40 --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I do so I may give some additional guidance

18     to you.

19             If Mr. Tieger puts something to you, instead of saying that's

20     manipulation, if you disagree, fine, then you say, Mr. Tieger, I do not

21     agree with that because this is how it was.  That's -- without

22     accusations giving the testimony we would expect you to without the

23     aggressivity in your answers.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:

Page 42320

 1        Q.   We're going to look at another excerpt from the 33rd Assembly

 2     Session, this one at page 40 of the English, page 33 of the Serbian.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And it's from July 1993.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Correct.  And -- but we've fortunately had a chance

 5     to look as well at the assembly session attendance records and -- which

 6     are now in evidence for that period of time.

 7        Q.   And this is Mr. Karadzic speaking and you'll find --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry for interrupting you.  I said it's from

 9     July 1993.  It was wrongly recorded.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

11        Q.   And Dr. Karadzic says the following:

12             "Gorazde is ours.  Perhaps we will have to make some concessions

13     in parts of Sarajevo itself for Gorazde to remain ours because the Drina

14     is of enormous importance for Republika Srpska and for the Serbian people

15     and lastly it is one of the strategic aims for the Drina not to be a

16     border.  That is what we adopted here in this Assembly."

17             And that's a reflection of the fact, Mr. Dodik, that

18     Muslim-majority municipalities like Gorazde were embraced by the

19     strategic objectives and considered to be Bosnian Serb; right?

20        A.   Well, here you have Karadzic's speech.  I do not agree that it

21     was primarily defined as such and that at the end of the war Gorazde

22     remained on the other side.

23        Q.   All right.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I tender this excerpt, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's an excerpt which should be added to

Page 42321

 1     something or ...

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, to P6921.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar informs me that it is already part

 6     of exhibit and perhaps, Madam Registrar, you give the number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the excerpt currently used by the

 8     Prosecutor is currently Exhibit P7359.  That's page 33 and 34 of the

 9     B/C/S and page 40 and 41 of the English.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Tiger.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now a little earlier we talked of P7539.  Is this

14     the same P number?  Earlier it was given 7539 instead of 7359.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, I think that was a transposition of the

16     numbers.  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Which now is the accurate one?  Madam Registrar,

18     you --

19             THE REGISTRAR:  The exhibit is P7359.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's hereby confirmed now.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. TIEGER:

23        Q.   Mr. Dodik, this will be my last questions to you.  I put it to

24     you, sir, that it is on the basis of this type of information that we've

25     just looked at - some of which you heard directly because you were

Page 42322

 1     present at sessions, some of which was known to the other assembly

 2     members who were present, and was readily accessible to you and on the

 3     basis of similar information which was available either through

 4     representatives of the international community or any number of people

 5     with whom you had contact - on the basis of such information that you

 6     once accused the Bosnian Serb leadership at all levels of organised war

 7     crimes and you did that publicly; right?

 8        A.   I did not have information about that.  Possibly in some

 9     political discussions, but I don't stand by that any longer.

10        Q.   All right.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Let's look at 65 ter 33540.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we look at that you said:

13             "I did not have information about that."

14             What did you exactly mean by "that"?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean I?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm seeking clarification of your answer.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ah, yes.  I did not receive

18     information about this so then, of course, I cannot stand by this claim.

19     But I can't deny that I may perhaps have said something like that, but it

20     could have been in some political showdown or in some other similar

21     situation.

22             MR. TIEGER:

23        Q.   Let's that I can one step at a time.  Again I asked for 33540.

24     This is from the BBC.  It's the text of a report by Serbian news agency

25     Beta dated the 12th of January, 2001.

Page 42323

 1             "Outgoing Serb Republic Prime Minister Milorad Dodik today

 2     accused the Serb Democratic Party (SDS) of 'organising and committing

 3     crimes during the war' in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4             "'It must be openly said that crimes have been committed in this

 5     region under the SDS leadership and this must be punished,' Dodik said.

 6     He said that it was to be expected that 'all leading SDS officials at

 7     various levels stand before The Hague Tribunal'."

 8             Now you were asked about that during the course of your -- about

 9     this article during the course of your testimony in the Karadzic case,

10     and you said at transcript page 36903 through -04:

11             "Yes, that was the political struggle between me and the SDS in

12     2001.  It was a time of transition of power.  You can consider this as

13     political discourse which need not necessarily be based on facts but I'm

14     not denying having said this."

15             And then again at transcript page 36906 you said:

16             "I didn't deny what the BBC says."

17             Does that remain your position, Mr. Dodik, that you don't deny

18     having said these things but you chalk them up to politics?

19        A.   Yes, precisely what I said in the quotation that you read out

20     from the Karadzic trial, I do stand by that.

21        Q.   Well, does that mean that what you were saying was true but you

22     decided to say it for political reasons, political advantage; or that

23     what you were saying was not true but you decided for political reasons

24     to accuse the SDS of organised war crimes?

25        A.   It means what you quoted from the Karadzic trial, so you may

Page 42324

 1     quote it again if you like.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please answer the question.

 3     Mr. Tieger put to you two possible interpretations of what you said and

 4     asked which of the two it is.  Could you please answer that question?  Is

 5     it not true but you said it just for political reasons; or is it true but

 6     you expressed yourself on the matter for political gain or political

 7     reasons?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were people who committed

 9     crimes and they ought to be prosecuted and some have been prosecuted, and

10     I do stand by that and it is part of the truth.  But the other part, an

11     abstract qualification of all leading persons from the SDS, could be

12     treated as a political statement.  There were persons who participated;

13     some courts have proved their participation and they ought to be

14     published.  That's what I said and what I said here as well.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:

17        Q.   And you were clear that this open accusation that needed to be

18     said, must be openly said, included the top-level SDS leadership, right,

19     because you explicitly excluded Mrs. Plavsic from that characterisation;

20     correct?

21        A.   Well, that's how this reads, yes.  I do think that she was not a

22     very important person in those processes within the SDS, and that's what

23     I said.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I have nothing further, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I really get a real answer to the

Page 42325

 1     last question.

 2             You excluded Madam Plavsic.  Does that mean that, apart from her,

 3     that your accusation covered also the level at which Madam Plavsic was

 4     functioning?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not accuse anyone.  I was

 6     expressing my political view on this.  In the case of Biljana Plavsic

 7     when I said that she did not have an important role in the SDS

 8     leadership, as I said here in this text --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... let me --

10     you're moving away from my question.  Whether you call it your view on

11     the matter or whether you accused -- excluding or making an exception for

12     Madam Plavsic suggests that in your view or your accusation - whatever

13     you would like to call it - that you covered the top level of the SDS.

14     Is that how we can understand it?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, Your Honour, I said a moment

16     ago that there were people, both at the local level of the SDS and

17     others, who were involved in crimes and should be convicted, and I still

18     think so today.  As far as Biljana Plavsic is concerned, it's exactly as

19     I said here:  She did not play an important part in the leadership of the

20     party.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, you are not -- I try it for a last time to

22     see whether I now get an answer to my question.  You said:

23             "I said a moment ago that there were people, both at the local

24     level of the SDS and others ..."

25             Did "others" include the top level of the SDS?

Page 42326

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say that.  That's for the

 2     Court to determine, but I believe that there was involvement even of the

 3     people who were part of the top leadership.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  And I would tender 65 ter 33540, Mr. President, and

 6     that concludes my examination.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 33540 receives number P7766.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             Mr. Lukic, are you ready to re-examine the witness?

11             MR. LUKIC:  I am, Your Honour, thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

14             Let's keep this document on the screen.

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dodik, we have this BBC report before us.

17     You have just been asked about the criminal liability of SDS members.

18             Did you ever deal with investigations and determining the

19     culpability of people from the top leadership of the SDS?

20        A.   No, I am neither trained nor authorised to do that.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to make one correction at page --

23     yesterday's transcript, page 42260, 23rd line, it was noted that

24     Mr. Dodik said he give 6.000 various political statements.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Which number did you mention?

Page 42327

 1        A.   600.000.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have 02366, 65 ter number, on our screens,

 3     please.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] -- oh, it's added to

 5     that.  Sorry.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   This is the record of the 24th Session of the National Assembly

 8     of Republika Srpska from 8 January 1993.  Page 9 was shown to you.

 9     Page 3 in B/C/S.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... in English and

11     page 64 in B/C/S.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] And it was put to you that proposals were made

13     for Muslims not to be recognised as a nation.  I would need the beginning

14     of this contribution of Vojo Kupresanin to see why this was contested.

15     Mr. Kupresanin says, I quote:

16             "We stumbled over some concepts more than once in the past.

17     Gentlemen, is the Muslim nation a nation at all?  The nation that was

18     manufactured and introduced by a concept of Tito's in 1974, receives a

19     position like the Greeks, to say the least.  Should we throw out this

20     nation as a nation, and say instead that they are Serb people of Muslim

21     faith?"

22             Mr. Dodik, you are a young man, just as I.  Before 1974, do you

23     remember how Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina identified themselves, how did

24     they declare themselves?

25        A.   As Serbs and Croats, or Croats of their particular faith.

Page 42328

 1     Meso Selimovic, a famous author, declared himself as a Serb and many

 2     documents exist about that.  Ivo Andric, the Nobel Prize winner, did the

 3     same and many other intellectuals as well --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the following

 5     sentence.  Could ...

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have to stop here.  We don't receive

 7     interpretation because the interpreters missed a sentence.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I'll --

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Please, the English interpretation stopped at

10     one point and I can continued to listen to you in B/C/S.  It was stopped

11     when you said:

12             "Ivo Andric ... did the same as did many other intellectuals ..."

13        A.   Yes.  Until 1974 in documents in the former Yugoslavia, Muslims

14     were marked as a religious group with a small letter m.  From 1974, the

15     letter m became a capital and it was decided that they should be

16     designated as a nation, and that what's Vojo Kupresanin is saying.  And

17     it was only in 1993 by a decision of the Bosniak Assembly, I believe it

18     was called in Sarajevo, that people receives the name Bosniak.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20        A.   Which indicates that they themselves had a problem with their

21     self-identification in 1991/1992.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you telling Mr. Dodik that's what happened or

23     are you asking him a question?

24             MR. LUKIC:  I think that is he telling us this.  I asked a

25     question.

Page 42329

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It was you who is speaking?  Am I right?  Oh.  I'm

 2     sorry.  The record is different.  Thank you.  I'm sorry.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we briefly see P7662.  That's

 4     the record of the 38th Session.  I have P7662.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think you are referring to P7762.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  You are right, Your Honour.  Yes, you are right.

 7     7762.  Yes.  I apologise.

 8             We need page 74 in English version and page 57 in B/C/S version,

 9     please.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] It was put to you that Mr. Karadzic talked about

11     the implementation of pre-planned steps.  In this connection, I'll just

12     mention the number P6999 was also shown you to, page 3 in English and

13     page 2 in B/C/S.

14             Before the war, did Serbs in their political struggle violate the

15     constitutional rights of Muslims and Croats in those pre-planned moves of

16     theirs?

17        A.   There is no such evidence.  I don't think that happened.  I

18     believe, moreover, that several attempts were made in many ways to reach

19     an agreement.  Well-known is the situation with the so-called

20     Cutileiro Plan, where the leadership of the Serbs accepted the proposed

21     organisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a complex community.

22     Alija Izetbegovic agreed too, as did the Croatian side.  That meeting was

23     in Portugal.  But when Alija Izetbegovic returned to Sarajevo he rejected

24     the plan, while the Serbian side never rejected it; but it was impossible

25     to put it in place because Alija Izetbegovic rejected it.

Page 42330

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm a bit puzzled by -- in your question

 2     you include the pre-planned moves, whereas - if I understood the witness

 3     well - he denied that there were any pre-planned moves.  So, therefore,

 4     to -- but perhaps I may have misunderstood it, but if you would clarify

 5     that because what Mr. Tieger put to him wasn't this an example of

 6     pre-planned moves on what happened.  The witness always said no -- at

 7     least that's how I understood him.

 8             Could you please clarify this.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I will try to find in the transcript and come back to

10     that topic, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   To conclude this discussion, did you see any action by the

14     Serbian side as action to which Muslims and Croats responded; or was it

15     the case that Muslims and Croats made moves to which Serbs responded in

16     that their action?

17        A.   The political and military moves in that time were made

18     exclusively by Muslims and Croats.  As for the events that I was involved

19     in, I see them as a reaction to that -- to those moves and to the

20     political decisions they made after Republika Srpska was established,

21     together with all the rest that was necessary to defend the people, first

22     of all, the people that was exposed almost in equal measure on all sides

23     in Krajina, around Sarajevo, and in Herzegovina.  Of course, I mean to

24     say that there was awareness of the fact that the Muslims were suffering

25     too, but it's a fact that it was a war, and we did not even have enough

Page 42331

 1     information about the suffering of people on the other side.

 2             So all those political and military actions were primarily a

 3     reaction to the situation that was already in place.

 4        Q.   Which side aimed to preserve the status quo, that is to say, the

 5     existing situation.  Which side instead wanted to change the state?

 6     Which side, in other words, was forced to take action?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  The first part of the question was fair and then

10     Mr. Lukic went on to draw the conclusion for the witness that he wanted

11     the witness to confirm.  That's a very leading question.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I think my question was open, which side --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it was not -- yes.  If you say which side did

14     this, and this, and this, then you assume that happened.  And that makes

15     it a leading question, Mr. --

16             MR. LUKIC:  Then I'll rephrase things.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Lukic.  Of course -- and could you also make

18     clear in your questions.  I think the status quo, the status quo of what

19     exactly?  Because the witness has testified several times that the

20     Serbian side very much wished to remain within the Yugoslav --

21     Yugoslavia, whereas the Muslims wanted to move out.  At the same time -

22     but that's a totally different matter - the status quo, that is, who

23     controls what territory on the ground in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Could

24     we please try to clearly distinguish between the two, because in your

25     question, it's -- it's really seeking a lot of confusion.

Page 42332

 1             So could you please -- and even I wonder whether there's any

 2     disagreement about that among the parties.  I think that, Mr. Tieger,

 3     whether the Serbs wanted to stay in -- in Yugoslavia and whether the

 4     Serbs wanted to have certain control over certain territories, I never

 5     felt - but perhaps I'm missing something - that there's disagreement

 6     about that.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Well, it depends to some extent on the time-period,

 8     but basically there's no essential disagreement.  And in addition, I

 9     think it's largely a rehash of what was covered in direct examination.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. LUKIC:  It's not a rehash of what's covered in the direct

12     examination.  It is answering to the whole line of questions who actually

13     took actions and who took reactions, who had plans and who did not have

14     plans.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and we do -- we are not assisted by putting

16     that all together and asking for the status quo.  It depends on status

17     quo of what exactly, at what point in time.  If you want to further

18     clarify it and if you think that that's not clear yet, then you have an

19     opportunity to do so.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   All right.  We've heard -- it's not in dispute that you've said

22     that the Muslim/Croat side was in favour of Bosnia separating from

23     Yugoslavia and the Serbs were against that.  In this situation, according

24     to you, who had to have the active role?  And what did you see on the

25     ground in that respect?  Who had an active role?  Were the Serbs actively

Page 42333

 1     trying to stay in Yugoslavia?  Or was it that Muslims and Croats were

 2     actively trying to separate, to secede?

 3        A.   The active role was the role of Muslims and Croats, and that's

 4     what I explained earlier, talking about the unilateral secession of

 5     Slovenia and Croatia from Yugoslavia.  That was obvious even in mid-1991

 6     when in Bosnia-Herzegovina nothing indicated it was in the offing.  Such

 7     support also -- such support by foreign countries to Slovenia and Croatia

 8     was also a requirement for Bosnia and Herzegovina to do so the same.  And

 9     if you look at the dates, you will see that the decisions of the Serb

10     people were always a reaction to what was going on around them.  It can

11     be evidently seen from the chronology and the chronology proves it.

12             As for plans or lack of plans, when you are put in a position

13     where you have to make a decision, then you have to think about what to

14     do.  In that context, almost all of us, regardless of whether we were

15     told to do so or not, we had to do something.  We had to constitute a

16     republic.  If you constitute a republic, then you have to adopt a

17     constitution and laws.  That's the logic of events.  Of course, you can

18     interpret it as a sort of pre-conceived action, but it was simply a

19     necessity.

20             The decision of Muslims and Croats led to a unilateral secession

21     contrary to local legislation.  It was just a reflection of the political

22     will of the political representatives of Muslims and Croats in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  There were no state decisions made to that effect.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dodik.  It's time for the break.  I'll try to

25     finish as soon as I can in the next session so that you can return to

Page 42334

 1     your normal obligations.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break.  Could you follow the

 3     usher, Mr. Dodik.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And before we take that break, Mr. Lukic, you tried

 6     to finish as soon --

 7             Mr. Mladic, would you refrain from communicating with the public

 8     gallery.

 9             Mr. Lukic, as soon as possible means what?

10             MR. LUKIC:  I hope I will finish in less than half an hour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Less than half an hour.  That would also mean

12     that -- I do understand that the next witness was scheduled to arrive not

13     later than 1.00, but we might need him a little bit earlier.

14             And is there any news about his availability before 1.00,

15     Madam Registrar?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the Victims and Witness Section are

17     doing their best to bring the witness earlier.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll see whether he arrives in time so that

19     we would not lose any further time.

20             We take a break and resume at quarter past 12.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps briefly, I think there was an issue about

24     Mr. Malojevic and another person.  At the same time I noted that

25     Mr. Malojevic addressed the others as colleague deputies or so, so --

Page 42335

 1     which is a suggestion that he was a deputy himself as well.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  But I leave that open and I don't think it's that

 4     vital that we should pursue the matter at this moment.

 5             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I owe you one reference too.

 7     When we discussed whether Mr. Dodik mentioned any actions, plans, on the

 8     Serbian side - and it was in connection with the document now P7762 - at

 9     page 3 of today's transcript, line 15, it was the question, and at line

10     20, Mr. Dodik said, I quote:

11             "A.  It was such a time that certainly we did make certain moves,

12     and they were completely legitimate from the view of establishing

13     Republika Srpska.  Since Yugoslavia broke up using the people's right to

14     self-determination, which was set out in the constitution of SFRY, the

15     Serbs were entitled to have their own territorial organisation.  That was

16     how it was understood and how I understood it.  So moves of this

17     character constituting an entity were fully legitimate, but they were

18     always a reaction to something else.  That's also true."

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it looks as if we are now ending up in

20     argument.  I think the emphasis was on the pre-planned.  I leave it for

21     the time being.  I asked it because your question was not about moves but

22     about pre-planned moves.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Can we have 02362 on our screens, please,

25     and we need pages 78 in English version and 76 in B/C/S version.

Page 42336

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] This document or these minutes talk about the

 2     citizenship of Republika Srpska, and you were presented this part where

 3     it is gained, inter alia, by birth.  It's obvious that there was some

 4     uncertainty about this, so Slovenian and Croatian practice is invoked.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need paragraph 4 in the B/C/S

 6     version and paragraph 5 in the English version.

 7        Q.   Where it is said:

 8             "Just an example of how the Slovenes and the Croats did that."

 9             "We have various excerpts.  In Slovenia, the Serbs signed loyalty

10     papers but couldn't get citizenship.  There is not a single Serb who was

11     immediately granted citizenship in Slovenia even if he was born there.

12     All they did was sign loyalty to the Republic of Slovenia."

13             Do you remember now whether any of the Muslims or Croats were

14     stripped of their citizenship because during the war they left the

15     territory that was under the control of the Serbian forces during the

16     war?

17        A.   No, I'm not aware of any such instances of anyone being stripped

18     of their citizenship.  I know that there were many Muslims and Bosniaks,

19     as they were later called, who were even members of the Army of

20     Republika Srpska.  I've known some of them since my childhood, and I know

21     that they experienced no problems with citizenship whatsoever.

22        Q.   You were shown P2508.  What should have been added was a part

23     from 65 ter 2382.  It was the assembly in Jahorina from the 27th to 29th

24     August and the 30th of September, 1993.  You were shown page 33 in

25     English and page 31 in the B/C/S, and we saw all sorts of things that

Page 42337

 1     were proposed.

 2             Were movements of population ever organised as, for example,

 3     between India and Pakistan?

 4        A.   I'm not aware of any such instances.

 5        Q.   With regard to document - we shan't look at it because it's not

 6     necessary - marked as 65 ter 02380 you were shown page 49 in English and

 7     page 40 in B/C/S.  It was a speech of former President Karadzic about

 8     Podrinje and Gorazde and the fulfilment of the third strategic goal.

 9             Do you know whether there was any fighting in Podrinje?

10        A.   Yes, there were some clashes, but what do you mean by "fighting"?

11     You mean at the beginning of the war?

12        Q.   Throughout the war, from Gorazde, for example?  Did Gorazde go to

13     war, because it had been declared a safe zone?

14        A.   Yes, I knew that the units from Gorazde would leave the protected

15     zone and enter the Serbian territory, just as they did in Srebrenica.

16     But the result of it all was that today Gorazde is administered by

17     Bosniaks and Muslims and the number of Serbs remaining there is

18     ridiculous.  But I knew that Gorazde was a protected zone and I could

19     hear from time to time that there were some clashes going on there and

20     that they were the result of the phenomenon that I just described.

21        Q.   President Dodik, thank you for answering our questions.  We won't

22     take any more of your time.  Thank you, and have a safe journey back

23     unless we see each other.

24        A.   Thank you.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 42338

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, any further questions for the witness?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  No.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dodik, this then concludes your evidence in this

 4     court.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to

 5     The Hague.  We're happy that you -- we can release you well in time so

 6     that you can perform your duties and return home because that is what we

 7     wish you, that is, a safe return home again.

 8             You may follow the usher.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I would just ask to be excused so -- to

12     greet President Dodik, and I would have to leave the courtroom for that

13     since he is leaving the city immediately.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you are excused.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Co-counsel is there so ...

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the next witness apparently has arrived.  Could

19     he be escorted in the courtroom.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Just to note quickly, Mr. President, that the Court

23     had asked yesterday about the necessity of tendering certain excerpts

24     from the tape-recorded interview.  Accordingly, I looked back at that.  I

25     think we can cut the number of exerts tendered in half.  The first one

Page 42339

 1     was the one where the witness first initially said he wouldn't confirm

 2     anything that wasn't -- although there was a subsequent apparently

 3     confirmation and in respect of another one, I think the Court indicated

 4     to the witness when he was contextualising that the entire page would be

 5     admitted.  So in light of that, I thought it best not to remove that from

 6     the list, but otherwise we'll -- we will act in accordance with the

 7     suggestion made by the Court yesterday about the need to do so in light

 8     of the witness's confirmation.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do I understand that the witness has not yet

10     arrived at the premises?

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, Mr. Stojanovic, the witness apparently

13     has not arrived.  He was scheduled to arrive not later than 1.00.  I

14     suggest that we take the break now, another 20 minutes, and then have a

15     slightly extended last session which goes until quarter past 2.00.  That

16     would be a session of one hour and 20 minutes then.

17             MR. IVETIC:  We are agreeable.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that's how we will proceed.

19             We take a break, and we resume at five minutes to 1.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

23     courtroom.

24             Mr. Ivetic, I do understand that the 92 ter material now does not

25     anymore include the procedural matters some ten pages of the whole of it.

Page 42340

 1     Final question:  The 92 -- the 65 ter summary refers to the Markale

 2     market, 28th of August, 1995, but that seems to be a mistake.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  That's a mistake, yeah.  It's the first one.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what sounds more logical.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. --

 7             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Moroz.  Before you give evidence, the Rules

 9     require that you make a declaration.

10             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.  As far as I understand, Serbian interpreter

11     works here.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we check -- could you check --

13             THE WITNESS:  So for me it's better to communicate in English.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

15             THE WITNESS:  Yeah ... mm-hmm.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could the witness -- could the earphones be on

18     channel 4, the English.  It is.

19             Mr. Moroz, before you give evidence and I think that's -- was

20     part of previous experience as well.  We'll keep a close eye on whether

21     your mastering of the English language is such that we would allow you to

22     continue in English or not, or whether we would urge you to use your

23     native language.  But we'll start as you suggest.  Would you please make

24     the solemn declaration, of which the text is now handed out to you.

25             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  I solemnly declare that I will speak the

Page 42341

 1     truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  SERGII MOROZ

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Moroz.

 4             Mr. Moroz, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.  You find

 5     Mr. Ivetic to your left.  Mr. Ivetic is member of the Defence team of

 6     Mr. Mladic.

 7             Please proceed.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 9        Q.   Good day, Colonel, sir.  I would first ask that you state your

10     name for purposes of the record.

11        A.   I am Sergii Moroz.  Well, this is my full name.

12        Q.   And, sir, if I can ask you:  Have you previously testified at

13     this Tribunal in other cases?

14        A.   Yes, I testified previously two times, in Karadzic and --

15     just ... Galic.

16        Q.   Galic.

17        A.   Galic case, yes.

18        Q.   And at this time I would ask for 1D03955 in e-court.

19        A.   Okay.

20        Q.   And that will be a transcript from the Galic case dated the 22nd

21     and 23rd of January, 2003.  Do those dates -- are they in accord with

22     your recollection of when you testified in the Galic case?

23             Does that sound right that you testified in January of 2003 in

24     the Galic case?

25        A.   Well, yes, but this is about Russian channels something.  What

Page 42342

 1     does it ... what does it mean?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  If we could -- [overlapping speakers] --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Has the witness the English channel on his screen?

 4     Could we check that.

 5             Yes, we have ...

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, this is English, but this transcript is about

 7     some conversation between Judge and interpreters.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but all together it's 84 pages --

 9             THE WITNESS:  Ah, okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- so it's not only this one page.

11             Perhaps, Mr. Ivetic, you ask him whether he has reviewed it.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

13        Q.   Colonel, did you have occasion to review this transcript first in

14     the Karadzic case and then last night to see if everything is correct?

15        A.   Yes, I have a chance to look -- to look it through.

16             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can briefly turn to page 3 in the e-court

17     which will be transcript page 18116 of the underlying Galic transcript

18     and if we could zoom in on lines 3 through 5.

19        Q.   And, sir, here your answer is recorded as saying:

20             "I graduated from the military institute."

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   "I am professional military retired lieutenant-colonel.  So now I

23     live in Kiev.  I am conflict administrator in Procter & Gamble Ukraine."

24             Is this part of the transcript still correct?  That is to say,

25     are you still employed by Procter & Gamble in that position?

Page 42343

 1        A.   No.  Currently I work in another company Unipharm Incorporated,

 2     it's American company, European small division.  So I am administrative

 3     manager over there, but all the rest remains the same.

 4        Q.   Okay.  So apart from this one correction, do you stand behind the

 5     rest of the transcript as being correct?

 6        A.   Yeah.

 7        Q.   And if were to ask you the same questions as in the transcript

 8     today, would your answers be the same as in the transcript?

 9        A.   Well, of course, when I look through yesterday the transcript, I

10     understood that I forgot a lot of things.  But now I refresh my memory

11     and I'm absolutely sure that those days I talked the truth.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, we would then - based upon that

14     answer - tender 1D03955 as a public exhibit.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 1D03955 receives number

17     D1370.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Admitted into evidence.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, at this time I have a short summary of

20     D1370 which I have prepared and which I explained yesterday to the

21     witness is for purposes of the public to hear what is contained therein,

22     and I have distributed I hope to the booths in the last break.

23             Colonel Sergii Moroz is a retired professional military

24     lieutenant-colonel from Kiev, Ukraine, who was a member of the UNPROFOR

25     forces in Sector Sarajevo between October 1993 through October 1994.  He

Page 42344

 1     was a mission commander within an engineer section.  His unit was a

 2     specific unit within the Sector Sarajevo headquarters whose main task was

 3     renovation and repair of civilian objects, such as electricity lines,

 4     sewage systems, water and gas systems of both warring sides.

 5             In performing the repair work, mixed working teams were formed

 6     consisting of members of the warring sides, who accompanied the UN

 7     engineers.  Co-operation was very productive.

 8             Repair missions were almost every day.  In relation to the

 9     electrical utilities, the repairs were mostly required to be done to

10     pylons on Serbian-held territory.  The damage was caused by gun-fire on

11     the one hand, and by mortar fire from the Serbian side -- from the,

12     pardon, Muslim side on the other hand.

13             In relation to water supplies, drinking water was always

14     available in Sarajevo.  The only difficulties were due to low water

15     pressure, such that civilians had to take water in a reservoir from the

16     ground floor up to their apartments on higher floors.

17             As to the gas supply, due in part to Russia cutting or

18     diminishing the gas supply, and second that is correct gas pipelines were

19     damaged in places.

20             As to the supply of water, nearly all the valves to wells were on

21     the Muslim side in Sarajevo.  When the UN received complaints of the

22     Muslim side that the Serbs had cut off the water, upon inspection, it was

23     revealed the valves on the territory controlled by the Muslim army were,

24     in fact, closed.

25             During his deployment, the witness nearly every other day during

Page 42345

 1     the evening experienced that the Muslim side would fire mortars from near

 2     the PTT building where he was situated and the Serb side would respond.

 3     Ukrainian soldiers of UNPROFOR at the Tito barracks complained to him

 4     that it was hard to sleep because the Muslim side often did the same near

 5     that location.

 6             It was the opinion of the witness that such Muslim mortars had no

 7     military purpose.

 8             At the beginning the uniforms and weapons of the Muslim side were

 9     obsolete but near the end of the witness's deployment, he saw new

10     uniforms and new weapons in their possession.

11             As to the Markale explosion in 1994, a Russian UNMO involved in

12     the investigation told the witness that the investigation revealed that

13     the shell could not have come from the Serb side and that the explosion

14     was too great to have been one mortar shell.  The Russian officer was of

15     the opinion that a special explosion device was brought into the

16     market-place.  Another Russian who was a member of UNPROFOR told the

17     witness the Russian Battalion had seen, via night-vision goggles, that

18     the Muslim soldiers would go into the neutral zone and further onto the

19     zone of the Serb side and the next day fire would come from that same

20     area into the city.

21             And that concludes the summary.  And I would have some additional

22     questions for the witness, but with the assistance of the usher we can

23     perhaps provide him with a hard copy, which might be easier to read, of

24     the transcript than the version on the screen.

25             And while we give time for that to happen, I can ask to turn to

Page 42346

 1     page 11 of the transcript in e-court.  Page 11 should correspond to

 2     transcript page 18124 of the Galic transcript.

 3        Q.   And if we could focus on lines 1 through 8, sir.  Here you were

 4     asked the question as follows:

 5             "Q.  Mr. Moroz, can you tell us whether when going out for repair

 6     work whether did you form some mentioned working teams.  Was there any

 7     need for that?"

 8             And your answer is recorded as:

 9             "A.  Yes, there were such cases when mixed teams were

10     formulated and usually it was done for two reasons.  Sometimes one of the

11     warring sides provided repair parts, and they want -- they wanted to be

12     sure that these repair parts are really installed in the object.  It was

13     one of the reasons."

14             Sir, can you tell us in relation to these mixed working team as

15     what was the attitude of both the Serb and Muslim sides toward these

16     mixed teams?

17        A.   Well, worker who participated in those teams understood the

18     importance for both sides of the job they did, and so they do it like

19     normal important job.

20        Q.   And were there any problems encountered in the work of those

21     mixed teams?

22        A.   As far as professional point of view, no problems occurred

23     because those people usually knew each other for long time, before war

24     they worked together.  But as for their personal relationship during

25     the -- the job, they tried to be very polite and very conservative in

Page 42347

 1     relations because it was my personal opinion that they didn't want to be

 2     accused of their friends that they keep relationship with the enemy.

 3        Q.   And now if we can turn to page 14 in e-court and that would be

 4     transcript page 18127 of the Galic transcript, and I'd like to look at

 5     lines 18 through the end of the page and it says here -- the question you

 6     were asked is as follows:

 7             "Q.  And did you know what caused the damage of these cables in

 8     Vogosca which then had such an effect that you indicated, that is, power

 9     cuts?"

10             And you answered as follows:

11             "A.  So sometimes it was gun-fire and so the damage was not very

12     big.  Just one of the wires was cut.  And the other reason was mortar

13     fire from the Muslim side in the direction of Volkswagen plant because,

14     as far as I know, so I'm sure of that because Muslim workers often told

15     me that there were rumours inside the city that on that plant an

16     ammunition work-shop was organised.  I've been to that plant during the

17     mission, and I" - and we need to turn the page - "hadn't seen any working

18     activity on that plant, because it was seriously damaged."

19             If I can first focus on this reference to the Volkswagen plant,

20     can you -- can you explain for us where that plant is located in

21     reference to the power plant?

22        A.   So it was very close to the power plant and I think that it was

23     built there just to use the electricity from this power plant.  Well, and

24     I've seen the territory of this and I personally was inside that

25     territory.  Because my boss, French officer, asked me, just have a look

Page 42348

 1     on the territory, because there were rumours that some work-shop of

 2     ammunition production is organised there.  Well, I asked Serbian

 3     engineers to accompany me on the territory, so they did it, and so I -- I

 4     saw that only just spare parts were obsolete, very old, are piled there,

 5     so no activity, no transport traffic so that everything was calm there.

 6        Q.   And the power plant that is mentioned, to which side in the

 7     conflict did that plant provide electricity, which of the warring sides?

 8        A.   For both sides.

 9        Q.   And if we could focus on the part of your answer where you

10     mentioned that wires were cut by gun-fire.  Could you explain your

11     impression of how that happened.

12        A.   So it's actually not my impression, but I -- I asked workers on

13     both sides why wires are cut so often, what was the reason.  Because when

14     pylon is damaged by a shell, by shelling, it's visible and everything

15     understandable.  But why wires are cut.  And I was told that probably

16     fragments of -- of shells are reasons of that, and they told me that

17     sometimes snipers so boast in front of other soldiers how so precise they

18     are and they fired from sniper rifles shoot in the direction.  Probably

19     that, but that were the reasons.

20        Q.   And now beginning at line 12 of the same page, you were asked

21     about problems supplying water to parts of Sarajevo.  And here you

22     mention how pumping water from reservoirs was utilised but due to lack of

23     electricity or parts sometimes that didn't work.

24             And if we can turn to the next page, and here at the top you say

25     that due to the low pressure some people had to carry water up from the

Page 42349

 1     ground floor to their apartments, and then you say at lines 9 through 10:

 2             "Nevertheless, to drink water -- drinking water was always inside

 3     the city."

 4             And I'd like to ask you:  To what part of the city did this

 5     apply, which side had drinking water available in this nature?

 6        A.   Well, there were difficulties with the water supplying because

 7     there were periods, especially during winter, when pumping stations in

 8     Ilidza, where water was pumping into the mountain of Mojmilo, were not

 9     operational due to -- sometimes the reason was lack of electricity and

10     for some period, it was around two months, only -- there were around a

11     dozen of engines pumping water and only several of them were operation.

12     And that is why there was a -- it was a lack of water in reservoir in

13     Mojmilo.  Just to make water pressure enough for people to use it, in the

14     evening, so engineer officer closed wells on the mountain of Mojmilo just

15     to make enough stock of water in the tank on the city, and in the

16     morning, he is -- he opened that well.  Well, but even this water was not

17     enough to make enough pressure for -- for the city, and only ground or

18     first floor of buildings have it.  I speak mostly about the old city.

19     But there were several weeks when even on first floors water was absent,

20     and trucks with water tanks were organised to -- well, to bring water for

21     the population, and the main source of the water during that period was a

22     big reservoir on the brewery, city brewery, because it was the lowest

23     point in the city.

24        Q.   Okay.  And now if we could turn to page 75 in e-court which

25     should correlate to transcript page 18205 of the Galic transcript I would

Page 42350

 1     like to focus on line 17 onward where Judge El Mahdi asked you some

 2     additional questions about the water and the question was as follows:

 3             "Thank you" --

 4        A.   Just a moment.

 5        Q.   Yeah --

 6        A.   Page 18 --

 7        Q.   18205 in the paper copy.  And so line 17 and onwards the Judge

 8     asked you:

 9             "Thank you.  Then if I may, I'd like to move on to another

10     subject on which I need clarification.  It has to do with the water

11     supply.  And I'm quoting you in English: [In English] "-- Was the section

12     chief who examined personally pipelines.  And very often he was -- he

13     came from the mission in a bad mood because on Muslim side wells were cut

14     off."

15             And you answered:

16             "Closed.  Not cut off probably.  I put in a wrong way.  They were

17     closed."

18             And then General -- pardon me, Judge El Mahdi went on to say:

19             "And who was it who did" - if we can turn the page - "that?

20     Which side?  Was it the Muslim side which closed the wells?"

21             And you answered:

22             "Yes."

23             And then the Judge asked:

24             "Why would they do that?  What would they gain in this way, in

25     your view.  Was it the sabotage or what was it? "

Page 42351

 1             And you answered as follows:

 2             "So the greater part of valves -- I think nearly all valves were

 3     on Muslim side, and so I can't be sure about the purpose of this closure,

 4     but usually the day when it was closed UNPROFOR got complaint from Muslim

 5     side that Serbs cut off water from Sarajevo.

 6             Judge El Mahdi said then:

 7             "Yes.  And it was then said -- it was claimed that it had been

 8     done in the area that was controlled by the Muslim army; is that so?"

 9             "A.  Yes.

10             Judge El Mahdi:

11             "And how often did this happen?  Was it once or more often?"

12             And you answered:

13             "No, no, much more than once.  Dozens of times during my tour of

14     duty, especially in the first half during winter and spring 1994."

15             Now I'm going to ask you in relation to these circumstances,

16     these dozen or so times, when your commander came back in a bad mood

17     after finding that the valves to the wells were closed, do you know if it

18     was ever officially reported within UNPROFOR that this was the case?

19        A.   Well, I don't know what were his actions -- what actions he did

20     after such trips but usually after each mission we filled in form in

21     computer and send it like a report or so -- the report of the day.  And

22     probably -- I'm sure he did some reports, but whether it -- what were the

23     results and who analysed those reports, I don't know.

24        Q.   Thank you for that.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Who is the "he"?

Page 42352

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   Could you answer the Judge's question, who is the "he" that

 3     you've been referring to?

 4        A.   It was the officer -- French officer, major -- his name Philippe

 5     but I don't remember the last name because for me French last names it's

 6     very difficult to remember.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was he one of your supervisors?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Nevertheless, I can't say that I do remember all

 9     supervisors in my life.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But was he one of your supervisors?

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes, yes.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS:  Well, Philippe, well I don't remember.  More than

14     20 years have passed, unfortunately.  But I remember that he was very

15     frustrated about that because from the humanitarian point of view he

16     couldn't understand why somebody did such things.

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   And if we could turn to page 22 in e-court and that will be

19     page 18135 of the Galic transcript and it will be talking about the gas

20     supply.  And I'd like to focus beginning at line number 4 --

21        A.   Just a moment --

22        Q.   Yes.

23        A.   I'll find it.

24        Q.   18135, sir.  Take your time.

25        A.   Yes, I found it.

Page 42353

 1        Q.   And so beginning at line 4 the question posed was:

 2             "In what way?  What information did you have concerning the gas

 3     supply to the city, and where was the city supplied with gas from?"

 4             And you answered as follows:

 5             "So I got an order from my chief to visit first gas company

 6     inside the city, and I had conversation with the chief - I do not

 7     remember his name - to clarify the reasons there were not gas in the

 8     city.  So the answer was that first Russia cut -- or diminished, reduced,

 9     gas supply to Bosnia; and the second, that gas pipelines in some places

10     were damaged and due to that, gas pressure is very low in the city.

11     After that I went to the Serbian side and spoke to -- I mentioned this

12     man Krajisnik.  And he confirmed that information, that gas supply is

13     reduced to a great extent and there were damages on the line but due to

14     low pressure it is very difficult to find the places of the leak, gas

15     leak on the lines.  So only two times I've been involved in such missions

16     and -- so no other missions I had."

17             And the first question I want to ask is:  When you say first went

18     to a gas company inside the city, which warring party controlled that gas

19     company?

20        A.   It was the Muslim side, and it was just distributing company,

21     which was responsible for gas lines inside the city.

22        Q.   And was it explained to you what was meant when they said Russia

23     cut or diminished the gas supply to Bosnia?

24        A.   Well, of course, first reaction of the director was Serbs are --

25     are responsible for that.  But after conversation why they did -- they

Page 42354

 1     switched off -- they cut gas, after that he explained me which you just

 2     read, the reasons you've just read.  And, well, the Serbian side was

 3     responsible and controlled big pipelines which received gas from Russia,

 4     and the director of this company, transporting company, Krajisnik,

 5     explained me nearly the same which I had from the director of the

 6     first company.

 7        Q.   And in relation to the gas that was affected, which gas -- which

 8     of the warring parties was affected by these problems in the gas supply?

 9        A.   Both sides.

10        Q.   Next, I want to move to a different topic and I want to look at

11     page 27 in e-court, and that will be transcript page 18140 of the hard

12     copy of the Galic transcript.  And I'd like to look at lines 16 and

13     onwards on this page, and if we're all there the question starts off

14     asking you:

15             "You personally during your stay, did you know about firing from

16     mortars?  And if you did, could you tell us in which situations."

17             And your answer reads as follows:

18             "Well, during my missions, we were not fired -- our missions

19     were -- as far as I remember, were not fired by mortars.  Usually it was

20     just exchange -- fire exchanged between warring sides.  And we were -- at

21     that moment we were somewhere in the middle.  But the greater mortar

22     activity was during the night, and very often just close to PTT building

23     where I was staying during the night, Muslim side -- Muslim soldiers

24     fired from mortar and then it was an answer from Serbian side.  Nearly --

25     especially during winter 1994, nearly each other day the night" - if we

Page 42355

 1     can turn the page - "started from the mortar exchange.  And the same

 2     story was with Tito barracks where Ukrainian battalion was located.

 3     Officers complained to me that it's hard to sleep because very often fire

 4     exchanges [sic] took place."

 5             Now, the first question:  This PTT building where you say you

 6     were located, what else was located at that building such that you would

 7     be there during the night?

 8        A.   Sorry, will repeat, please, your question.

 9        Q.   Who or what was located at the PTT building?

10        A.   So Sector Sarajevo headquarters were -- was located over there.

11        Q.   Okay.  And do you know if anyone ever complained to the Bosnian

12     Muslim side about their firing of mortars close to where the UN was?

13        A.   Well, I don't know if it was done officially, but I know that

14     officers who contacted -- liaison officers who contacted both sides

15     informed them about such shelling.

16        Q.   And if we could focus on the return fire from the Serbian side,

17     were there complaints made by the Bosnian Muslim side about that return

18     fire?

19        A.   Well, again, I don't know if it was done officially, but in the

20     conversation with Serbian soldiers and officers, I heard that they

21     complained that and asked me why UNPROFOR doesn't stop it.  Well -- but

22     all of that was unofficial conversation on my level.

23        Q.   Understood.  And if we could turn to page 38 in the Galic

24     transcript, which will correlate to transcript page 18151, you are again

25     being asked about this shelling from the PTT building and this time the

Page 42356

 1     Judge's question beginning at line 14 is as follows:

 2             "May I interrupt you.  I think that this is not exactly the

 3     information that you're seeking, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

 4             "Do you have any personal opinion as to whether militarily it is

 5     acceptable to fire from a place which is -- was a short distance from the

 6     PTT building?

 7             And your answer was as follows:

 8             "Well, my opinion is the following:  From the military point of

 9     view, there was no use firing mortar shelling from that area."

10             And, sir, I'd like for you to explain to us militarily why --

11     what you meant when you said there was no use in the mortar shelling that

12     the Bosnian Muslim side was doing from near the PTT building.

13        A.   Well, when mortar shelling is used, it -- it should be from a

14     militarily point of view some targets should be reached.  Well, some -- I

15     don't know units, diminished, destroyed, but it should be accompanied by

16     infantry actions, small-armour shelling, so on and so forth.  It should

17     be some co-ordinated actions.  But when people did four, five round

18     shelling and then -- so withdrew their weapons from that point and that

19     is all, I see no reasons in that.  Just only -- just only to make it

20     public, to make it some familiar noise.

21        Q.   And now if we could turn to another topic --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic --

23             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- before you turn to another topic.

25             Could you tell us where did those shells land?

Page 42357

 1             THE WITNESS:  I don't know, because usually it was at night and

 2     it was somewhere in the mountains.  So ... it was a very often from my

 3     point of view, because I saw only the place of shelling from the balcony

 4     where I lived.  We -- I personally several times saw it and where shell

 5     was directed, it was very hard to -- to determine.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have another question.  You said shelling

 7     with mortars doesn't make any sense if there's no follow-up infantry, et

 8     cetera.  Was that common that if one of the parties was shelling using

 9     mortars, that there be would a follow-up with infantry?  Could you please

10     explain that for both sides.

11             THE WITNESS:  There were several military operations, so

12     considerable clashes, when infantry and even heavy mortar was used in

13     some areas of Sarajevo.  But usually this mortar exchange fire was very

14     sporadic, and it seems to me it was just to exert psychological pressure

15     on each other.  Both sides used that tactics.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because this Chamber has heard quite some

17     evidence about mortars being fired and very often without any infantry

18     activity accompanying it.

19             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that what you refer to as just psychological

21     pressure?

22             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, yeah.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, could you give us an assessment on how

24     much of the mortars being fired was the psychological pressure and how

25     much of it was in support of any infantry activity?

Page 42358

 1             THE WITNESS:  It's hard to say, but I can say that more or less

 2     big infantry actions was during my year of duty in Sarajevo, probably a

 3     couple of months.  All the rest it was just sporadic fire exchange,

 4     sniper activities -- snipers killed a lot of people, mostly civilians, in

 5     Sarajevo.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I asked you without referring to any one

 7     of the sides, was that the same for both sides or was there a difference

 8     in this respect?

 9             THE WITNESS:  I saw -- personally me, I saw mostly inside

10     Sarajevo because I lived in PTT which was located inside Sarajevo, and so

11     was moving around the city on APC.  Also most -- the greater part of my

12     missions were inside Sarajevo.  That is why I saw more.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You say because of your limited movement you

14     were -- naturally saw only part of it and that is mainly, if I understand

15     you well, incoming fire in Muslim-held territory.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  Yes, yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. IVETIC:

20        Q.   And now if we can turn to page 64 in e-court of the transcript,

21     and that will correlate to page 18186 in the paper copy of the underlying

22     Galic transcript.  And I'd like to start at line 23 of the same in

23     relation to an answer that you are giving.  And you say:

24             "Yes.  I remember now what I meant when saying that.  Serbs --

25     the Serbian side very frequently blamed Muslim side that Muslim snipers

Page 42359

 1     used neutral zone or even went on Serbian territory, shoot from the

 2     Serbian" - next page - "territory at civilian citizens and even killed

 3     them just to -- just to provoke firing back and to blame Serbian side in

 4     atrocities.  I couldn't -- so personally I couldn't neither prove nor

 5     disprove that.  But I had a conversation with a Russian UNPROFOR officer

 6     which I met after the Russian battalion arrival in February -- it seems

 7     to me it was in February, yeah -- in February 1994.  They had -- the

 8     Russian Battalion had a couple of check-points just close to the river on

 9     the -- again, on the south bank of the river.  Now, I know that.  Well,

10     and this officer, lieutenant, it seems to me -- it seems to me I remember

11     his family name Chervonenko.  It is a Ukrainian family name.  That is why

12     I remember."

13             And then you were asked to spell the name and you say at line 17

14     onward:

15             "Of course not.  It is misspelt.  So C-h-e-r-v-o-n-e-n-k-o.

16     Correct.  And I met him during one of my missions.  So I need his

17     information how to find the spot of the water pipeline damage.  And after

18     the mission I had a conversation with him and asked about shooting

19     activity in his area.  And he told me an interesting thing.  The

20     Russian Battalion was equipped the with night vision binoculars, night

21     vision equipment, and his soldiers and personally he himself during the

22     night duty saw Muslim soldiers going into the neutral zone and further.

23     And during the next day there was active shooting from that direction" -

24     and if we just go to the top of the next page to finish up - "and he told

25     me that such night movements of soldiers equipped with sniper rifle was

Page 42360

 1     regular, nearly each night.

 2             "Well, that is -- that is why I told you that I think there were

 3     reasons by Serbian side to demand that all cease-fire agreements should

 4     be signed by all warring parties."

 5             And then you were asked a follow-up question at line 18 on the

 6     same page, if we could scroll down to that, by the Judge.  You were

 7     asked:

 8             "Sir, would you please clarify your answer as to were there some

 9     soldiers coming from where, crossing from what part and what part, and

10     then subsequently the fire was observed."

11             And your answer was:

12             "The officer told me that soldiers went from the old city,

13     crossed the river, and then went in the south direction up to the hill

14     where -- which was the area of Serbian forces -- the position of Serbian

15     forces.  Well, and during the day the fire was done in the direction of

16     the old city."

17             Now, Colonel, in relation to what you're describing here that the

18     Russian Battalion officer told you about, what was the belief of the

19     Russians as understood by you of who was actually conducting this firing

20     in the direction of the old city?

21        A.   I -- my previous opinion and his words, his opinion when we

22     discussed that in informal situation, were that both are -- both sides

23     are shooting in both directions.  And, of course, there were Serbian

24     snipers who wanted to reach military aim; and there were Muslim snipers

25     who shoot the same direction, just to gain probably political or some

Page 42361

 1     other things, just to accuse Serbian side about atrocities.  But, at the

 2     same time, he told me then from Serbian side military people also went to

 3     the old city and disappeared there and it was movement -- all night was

 4     movement in both directions, and it was for 100 per cent it was very hard

 5     to say who shoot where.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And now if we could turn to page 40 in e-court and

 7     that will be transcript page 18153 of the Galic transcript.  And if we

 8     could focus on line number 23, and you were asked as follows:

 9             "Last question:  Did you happen to see weapons in the city of, of

10     whatever nature?  And if yes, what did you see and where?

11             "A.  Well, usually I had close contacts with civilians inside the

12     old" - if we could turn the page at the top - "city, because streets were

13     narrow and it was a safe area to walk.  As for the weapons, I already

14     told you that in the first period of my tour of duty I saw that weapons

15     was rather obsolete -- I mean on Muslim side inside the city.  Sometimes

16     it were shotguns of Second World War period.  But at the time just before

17     I left Sarajevo, I could say that at that period soldiers were dressed in

18     new uniforms and they had new small fire."

19             Now, first of all, could you explain for us in addition to the

20     new uniforms you say they had new small fire.  What did you mean by

21     saying "new small fire," what kinds of things?

22        A.   I mean guns and automatic guns.

23        Q.   And was this discussed within UNPROFOR -- was it discussed where

24     these new uniforms and weapons were coming from?

25        A.   Well, of course, in personal conversations with officers, for us

Page 42362

 1     it was very strange how blocked city can survive in blockade and more --

 2     moreover, fight back, because for shooting and shelling you need weapons

 3     and shells and ammunition.  So there were rumours - only rumours - that

 4     it was some underground tunnel.  My colleagues, Ukrainian officers, who

 5     often were on duty in the airport told me that they heard that some

 6     tunnel is in the airport area.  Muslim workers which I worked with told

 7     me that there was special tunnel somewhere in the old city in the area

 8     Bascarsija; I can mispronounce it, but it sounds like something like

 9     that.  It was famous area in Sarajevo for criminal activity.  And during

10     the war, it was the centre of drugs, illegal weapons, so on and so forth.

11     And civilians told that somewhere -- the tunnel is somewhere there.  But,

12     of course, I never seen myself this tunnel and cannot support those

13     rumours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  When asking about rumours, Mr. Ivetic, have you

15     checked with the Prosecution whether there's any dispute about the

16     existence of a tunnel at the airport?  Because we now hear that there

17     were rumours about that.  Is it the position of the Prosecution that

18     there was or there wasn't or do you have no position on that?

19             MR. FILE:  We believe there was indeed a tunnel there.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And you, Mr. Ivetic?

21             MR. IVETIC:  The tunnel at the airport there was.  We're heard

22     now about a different tunnel and we had three witnesses of the

23     Prosecution that denied the tunnel in the airport --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, no, I want to -- Mr. Ivetic, if would you

25     have focussed your questions on another tunnel, I would not have

Page 42363

 1     intervened.  My question is:  We now hear of rumours of a tunnel of which

 2     apparently both parties agree that -- unless you disagree that it existed

 3     at a certain point in time.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I cannot lead -- ask leading

 5     questions, so I have to ask open-ended questions and then use the answers

 6     from the witness to elicit information about this secretary tunnel that

 7     we did not have previously.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I wouldn't mind if would you take off your

 9     hand from your mouth when you're speaking.  But I think you can -- you

10     could have introduced the matter of another tunnel by putting to the

11     witness what is apparently not in dispute, such as it's not in dispute

12     between the parties that there was a tunnel at the airport.  Is that the

13     only tunnel you are aware of on a the basis of his early testimony.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Colonel, if we could follow up.  You indicated the old city and

17     then you tried to pronounce it.  Is the area that you referring to

18     located near Bascarsija?

19        A.   Yeah, probably you pronounce it better than me.

20        Q.   And apart from the rumours as the two tunnels, was there any

21     other discussion amongst yourself at UNPROFOR as to any potential source

22     for the new weapons and uniforms that the Muslim side had at the end of

23     your tour?

24        A.   Well, there also some people -- for instance, Serbians were

25     absolutely sure, Serbian side was absolutely sure the UN convoys were

Page 42364

 1     used for that.  And there was -- they supposed that it somehow -- some

 2     trucks which were added to UN convoys and were -- and so drove inside the

 3     city.  Well, I don't know if it is true or not, but there was one rather

 4     big scandal when Serbian side shoot at UNHCR convoy and several trucks

 5     disappeared.  And Serbs told that they took away weapons with their

 6     trucks.  But what was -- again, it was like rumours or -- I haven't seen

 7     any official documents regarding that.

 8        Q.   And one other topic that you were asked about during the Galic

 9     trial was the topic of the Markale shelling in 1994, and that is

10     discussed at several places in the transcript.  I'd like to go to page 32

11     in the transcript which is page 18145 of the transcript, and I want to

12     talk about your own observations after going to the scene of the market

13     after the explosion.  And on this page it will start with line 6 and go

14     to 16.  And here you say:

15             "Well, it will be a little bit long answer.  First I have had --

16     I've seen the results of the explosion on TV, so nearly 20 or 30 minutes

17     after the explosion all that was life report on local TV.  Well, the next

18     day I had mission not far from the market-place, and I visited that and

19     just saw -- examined the place of the explosion.  And for me -- so on TV

20     it was told that it was a mortar shell.  After I've seen what I saw, the

21     market-place, for me it was very strange that it was -- the cause of the

22     explosion was identified as mortar shell because it was inside the city

23     and buildings are rather high, and so to my mind trajectory of the

24     shell -- so that the place of the explosion couldn't be at the place it

25     was."

Page 42365

 1             Now, in relation to your personal observations, what did you mean

 2     by saying it was very strange the place of the explosion couldn't be at

 3     the place it was?

 4        A.   Well, after a rather -- after some time of working inside the old

 5     city, you understand, with the help of civilians who live there, what

 6     side of the city is safe, what is unsafe, and usually if you -- during my

 7     first mission, when I went by foot on unsafe side, people always told me,

 8     So come out of there because better work here, not there, and the main

 9     reason was mortar shelling.  And I should say that the place of -- where

10     traces of this explosion were couldn't be so close to buildings because

11     they were rather high and the trajectory of shell couldn't be so close to

12     the building.

13        Q.   And in relation to your trip to the Markale market-place, how did

14     you know the exact place of the explosion?  Did someone tell you where to

15     look?

16        A.   Well, this market-place is not so big, first of all.  Then on TV,

17     everything was shown in details.

18        Q.   And then at several times in the Galic transcript you talk about

19     a Russian in the UNMO mission to hold you the mortar shell could not have

20     come from the Serb side.  I want to turn to page 45 in e-court,

21     transcript page 18167 of the Galic transcript, and here you are talking

22     about what this Russian told you and from line 1 it reads as follows.

23     The question is:

24             "Sir, could you repeat what you said.  Did he tell you that the

25     mortar could not have come from the Serb side or --"

Page 42366

 1             And your answer:

 2             "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.  Judging from the possible trajectory is

 3     the first reason.  The second reason, that the direction of fragments

 4     left after the explosion on asphalt showed it couldn't be from the

 5     Serbian side.  And the second -- the might -- a number of fragments of

 6     the explosion was so huge that any -- and a number of victims was very

 7     big.  It couldn't have be done by mortar shell, by mortar round?

 8             "Q.  So what you're saying is he told you that it could not have

 9     been a mortar shell or that the shell could not have originated from the

10     Serb side?  Which of it?

11             "A.  Both.  Both.  It can be -- if it were a shell -- a mortar

12     shell, it couldn't come from Serbian side.  But the character of the

13     explosion shows that the explosion was bigger than any mortar -- any

14     mortar.

15             "Q.  Did he tell you what it would have been?

16             "A.  No.  His supposition was that a special explosion device was

17     brought into the market-place."

18             And, sir, my first question:  How did you understand and what did

19     you mean when you said that the number of victims was very big, it

20     couldn't be done by a mortar shell.

21        A.   Well, statistics show that in results of mortar shelling, usually

22     by one round, only several -- several person can be killed.  For me, when

23     I arrived in Sarajevo and saw on asphalt traces of mortar explosions was

24     very strange that they were insignificant.  And then I was explained that

25     usually -- both sides used not big mortars which were -- which can be

Page 42367

 1     moved by hand.  That is why they were -- their might was not so big.  And

 2     traces were just not very deep inside asphalt or probably asphalt was of

 3     a very good quality.  But in the market, the trace was much deeper and it

 4     was -- the fragments which were traces of fragments which were on asphalt

 5     were dispersed evenly in all directions.  And usually when trajectory --

 6     when mortar shell was coming and after explosion, it was some angle of

 7     these fragments.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, part of the testimony we hear now is

 9     hearsay from another person who apparently gives expert opinion, although

10     we do not know whether he qualifies as an expert, and we now are asking

11     this witness to interpret the words of that unknown person that may or

12     may not qualify as an expert, we do not know, because we don't know who

13     it is.

14             Now similarly, in addition to that, you are eliciting evidence at

15     this moment from the witness which apparently is something for which we

16     heard a lot of experts, and that's not what really assists the Chamber

17     greatly in finding the truth on these matters.

18             You may proceed and please keep this in mind.

19             MR. IVETIC:  I will, Your Honours.  But I think that what the --

20     part of the witness has been telling us is based on his own observations

21     from the scene, and I can ask him if that's accurate.  But that's how I

22     understood the portion of his answer to be related to his personal

23     observations from viewing the site.  But --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, that's part of -- I started with the

25     first part, which I said was not assisting.  The second part still

Page 42368

 1     requires -- of course, he observed a few things, but he also drew a lot

 2     of conclusions about that and that means that he makes it opinion

 3     evidence, expert evidence, where his qualifications as an expert are not

 4     established.

 5             So you have responded to part of my observation, and that part

 6     also still stands as to the extent it assists this Chamber.

 7             Please keep this in mind when you continue.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While you are still on this page, maybe I could

10     just ask some question for clarification.

11             Sir, you said -- this is page 18167 that the -- "so his

12     supposition was that a special explosion device was brought into the

13     market-place.  What kind of special explosion device could this be that

14     could be brought into the market?

15             THE WITNESS:  I can say, because I am sure -- you see, I visited

16     the market-place several times after --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... sure.  Okay.  You don't

18     know.  Sorry.  You don't know what kind.

19             Now if it is brought on to the market-place, would it be able to

20     make such a deep crater as you said it was?

21             THE WITNESS:  Deeper traces --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not traces.  Crater.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Crater, okay.  Was deeper because

24     probably the explosion was bigger.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  But you've got to know the explosion -- you

Page 42369

 1     don't know the explosion, he didn't know the explosion because you

 2     both [Overlapping speakers] ... that's a -- that's guess-work now, isn't

 3     it?

 4             THE WITNESS:  Well, when you see a big cave, you understand that

 5     explosion was bigger than [Overlapping speakers] ...

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ... that's very true.  But

 7     if you did see a big cave like -- it more explains that this thing came

 8     at force rather than being put there and making a hole.

 9             THE WITNESS:  No, no, no. Because I can compare what I have seen

10     in other places.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Thank you.  You don't agree.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you said when you see a big cave.  Can you

13     describe how big that cave was.  How deep it was, what its dimensions

14     were.

15             THE WITNESS:  Usually after traces on asphalt after --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm asking you --

17             THE WITNESS:  -- normal and widely seen --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, no, no, I'm stopping you here.  You said,

19     When you see a big cave.  Did you see a big cave on the Markale market.

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you describe the dimensions of that cave; that

22     is, length, width and depth.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, it was -- diameter was around 30 centimetres

24     and the depth was 5, 7 centimetres.  As far as I remember.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 42370

 1             THE WITNESS:  But you -- as -- as -- as to compare to hundreds of

 2     traces which were around the city, there were usually 2, 3 centimetres

 3     depth and the round was 10, 15 centimetres and then all the rest, traces.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  So you drew your conclusions on the basis that the

 5     diameter was 30 centimetres rather than 10 to 15, and then the depth was

 6     5 to 7 centimetres compared to 2 or 3 centimetres you observed elsewhere.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any special training in interpreting --

 9             THE WITNESS:  No.  No.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. IVETIC:

13        Q.   Sir, this Russian officer you spoke with -- and at transcript

14     page 18155 of the Galic case, you say it's Mr. Rumyantsev.

15             Where were you both when you talked about this Markale shelling?

16        A.   We were in informal -- somewhere at night, informal situation in

17     PTT building.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I see we're about -- looks like a

19     minute or half a minute past -- before the break.  I have approximately

20     three more questions so I don't know if we should continue or if we

21     should end for the day.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We had already an extended session because we

23     started a bit earlier.  I think for tomorrow we don't need the whole of

24     tomorrow's time anyhow and the next witness would be available only on

25     Thursday.

Page 42371

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I think the next witness is available tomorrow and

 2     Thursday via videolink.  That was my understanding.  But we could check

 3     that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I -- then I may be -- for both days he would

 5     be available on --

 6             One second, please.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber, if those who are assisting us have no

 9     problems with it, then the Chamber would prefer that you, with three

10     questions, conclude your examination-in-chief.  And, of course, it also

11     depends on whether Mr. Mladic, because we'll easily move to tomorrow if

12     that is preferred.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I think I saw my client nodding and so I would --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I saw a similar thing, Mr. Ivetic.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. IVETIC:

17        Q.   Now, in the Galic -- pardon me.  At the time that you discussed

18     this with Mr. Rumyantsev, did you have any access to any official reports

19     of the incident?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   And in the Galic transcript, you were -- and the Karadzic case,

22     you were asked about a Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolay Vasilievich Rumyantsev,

23     and that was at transcript page 18170 through -72 of the Galic transcript

24     and at 29539 and 29541 of the Karadzic transcript.  And in the Galic

25     case, you talked about an Aleksei Rumyantsev.  Do you know if the Russian

Page 42372

 1     officer whom you spoke with and whom you remembered to be Aleksei

 2     Rumyantsev is the same or different than Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolay

 3     Vasilievich Rumyantsev that you were asked about in these prior cases?

 4        A.   Probably I named him -- his first name in wrong way because I

 5     knew -- I studied at the military institute with another guy Rumyantsev,

 6     and that is why I remember clearly the name of this UNMO officer, because

 7     he also studied at the same military institute but a little bit later

 8     than me.  And probably I just mixed up their names and that is why I

 9     named him Aleksei Rumyantsev.  But I never knew his second -- father

10     name, Vasilievich, that is why ... but I am sure that I am speaking at

11     the officer, UNMO Russian officer, then he was major not

12     lieutenant-colonel.  In Sarajevo, he was a major, well, and his name was

13     Rumyantsev.

14        Q.   And now has -- the Prosecution has examined you in both the Galic

15     and the Karadzic cases.  Has anything caused you to change or doubt your

16     memory of what the Russian officer named Rumyantsev whom you spoke with

17     about the Markale market explosion?

18        A.   I'm absolutely sure that everything I told during those two cases

19     is the truth.  And after my first visit of the market-place and we

20     exchanged views on what was happened -- what had happened in the market

21     with Rumyantsev, I visited on -- with missions the market area several

22     times, and several times I came to the place, and after our discussion

23     and when he pin-point some things, peculiar things which I should pay

24     attention to, I paid, and that is why I am absolutely sure what I'm

25     talking about.

Page 42373

 1        Q.   Sir, thank you again for your patience and for answering my

 2     questions.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I'm completed with direct, and then I

 4     await Your Honours' preferences as to with -- with which witness we start

 5     with tomorrow.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

10             But perhaps -- no, I -- I have to ask you to still wait for us

11     because thinking about scheduling.

12             Mr. Tieger.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, if there's a question about moving what had

14     been fixed as the commencement of the videolink for tomorrow, it also

15     implicates the scheduling for the Prosecution - specifically in this case

16     me and my availability on Thursday - so I had anticipated, as discussed,

17     that we would be beginning on -- tomorrow morning.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There was some confusion about -- amongst

19     ourselves about the availability of the videolink.

20             I do understand that the next witness would be ready tomorrow to

21     start at 9.30 his videolink evidence.  The Chamber would like to start

22     tomorrow mourning with that videolink evidence.

23             Mr. Ivetic, could you remind me about the times needed so that we

24     can give a better instruction to the present witness.

25             MR. IVETIC:  If I remember correctly, the time estimates are one

Page 42374

 1     and a half on the Defence and two and a half on the Prosecution.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  That's my recollection as well.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  One and a half and two and a half makes up four

 4     hours.  Perhaps some additional questions.

 5             Could the Prosecution tell us how much time -- I think it was one

 6     hour and a half for the cross-examination of this witness.

 7             MR. FILE:  Yes, Your Honour, and that remains the same.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which would mean anyhow that we would have a

 9     session on Thursday because we'll not finish the videolink evidence

10     tomorrow and the present witness.

11             Now since we need a session on Thursday anyhow, I think it would

12     be best to start cross-examination on Thursday morning and ask this

13     witness to be available on Thursday morning.

14             If that is agreeable to all parties, Witness, tomorrow we will

15     not start with your cross-examination.  That will be only on Thursday.

16     Therefore, we'd like to see you back Thursday, 9.30 in the morning most

17     likely, it can be that you have to wait for a second, but 9.30 in the

18     morning for cross-examination.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, just so we're clear.  Assuming that we don't

20     complete the videolink tomorrow, although I know the parties will be

21     attempting to do so, I presume we would continue with the videolink on

22     Thursday morning until completed?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But we hope that we will be able to complete

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 1     it tomorrow.

 2             Witness, we'd like to see you back on Thursday morning, 9.30 in

 3     the morning, and we hope to start right away; but if not, I beg for some

 4     patience.  I further instruct you that you should not speak or

 5     communicate in whatever way, with whomever, about your testimony, whether

 6     that is testimony already given or testimony still to be given on

 7     Thursday.

 8             If that's clear, you may follow the usher.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, absolutely clear.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we adjourn for the day, and we'll resume

12     tomorrow, the 9th of December, 9.30 in the morning, this same courtroom,

13     I.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.24 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day of

16                           December, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.