Page 42287
1 Tuesday, 8 December 2015
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
6 courtroom.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 No preliminaries, therefore the witness can be escorted in the
12 courtroom.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Dodik.
15 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that
17 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
18 beginning of your testimony.
19 Mr. Tieger will now continue his cross-examination.
20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 WITNESS: MILORAD DODIK [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dodik, and everyone in the courtroom.
25 Mr. Dodik, just before we adjourned yesterday, you had been shown
Page 42288
1 a portion of a transcript from a December 1991 session of the SFRY
2 Presidency in connection with my question to you about the lists of steps
3 or moves that Mr. Karadzic had and waited for opportune moments to
4 implement. You indicated that you did not attend that Presidency
5 session. I wanted then to move to 65 ter 02390, page 74 in the English
6 and page 57 of the Serbian. And that, Mr. Dodik, is the 38th Session of
7 the Republika Srpska Assembly. And at the bottom of the page in both
8 languages, Mr. Karadzic says the following:
9 "Let us use Alija's mistake to increase the price of wine,
10 remember how all the SAOs," that is the Serbian Autonomous Regions, "and
11 all those measures before the war always took place following Alija's
12 mistakes; there were 9-10 actions that we carried out," we turn to the
13 next page in English. I know we're about to turn to the next page in
14 Serbian, "that we carried them out. We brain-stormed them all together,
15 however, we did not pull all nine moves straight away but we carried them
16 out after Alija made a mistake, it is then that we would make a move and
17 the Muslims would curse his mother afterwards and not ours."
18 So do you remember these remarks of Mr. Karadzic at the
19 38th Assembly, Mr. Dodik?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. All right. Do you know whether you were at that session
22 or not?
23 A. I only see here that it's Mr. Karadzic speaking. I don't know
24 what session it was and where it was held, but that's included in the
25 minutes. But I don't remember. I really don't know and I cannot say
Page 42289
1 only on the basis of this whether I was present or not.
2 MR. TIEGER: I would tender that --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I don't remember. I don't
4 remember any of this. And to me it seems just like empty praise and
5 nothing else.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dodik, would you refrain from commenting on it.
7 You don't remember. You've answered the question. There's no need to
8 comment as you did.
9 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 02390 receives number P7762.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
14 Q. The moves and steps that Dr. Karadzic was referring to at the
15 38th Session and also at the SFRY Presidency included most of the major
16 steps on the path toward the establishment of the republic, that is, the
17 association of communities, Serbian Autonomous Region, establishment of
18 the Assembly, and so on. Isn't that right?
19 A. It was such a time that certainly we did make certain moves, and
20 they were completely legitimate from the view of establishing
21 Republika Srpska. Since Yugoslavia broke up using the people's right to
22 self-determination, which was set out in the constitution of SFRY, the
23 Serbs were entitled to have their own territorial organisation. That was
24 how it was understood and how I understood it. So moves of this
25 character constituting an entity were fully legitimate, but they were
Page 42290
1 always a reaction to something else. That's also true.
2 Q. Well, that's how we began the discussion, Mr. Dodik, and I put to
3 you that what you're calling a reaction and what Dr. Karadzic liked to
4 refer to as a reaction was, in fact, the implementation of pre-planned
5 steps. And again in that connection, let's turn to P6999.
6 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that, Mr. Tieger --
7 MR. TIEGER: And -- yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- with P7762, I'd forgotten to ask you how many
9 pages there were and there were 96, I see now. Could you reduce that to
10 the portion that you --
11 MR. TIEGER: Of course. Yeah. And in circumstances like that,
12 I -- it's -- it's taken as a given that we will reduce it to the
13 appropriate portion, but I'm sorry I didn't mention it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But of course the Chamber should know --
15 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- what will be admitted into evidence, and at this
17 moment you have 96 pages so that will be reduced. We hear from you in
18 the next two days or perhaps even today.
19 Meanwhile, we have the document you called up on our screens.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. TIEGER:
22 Q. Mr. Dodik, this is an interview given by Dr. Karadzic on the 6th
23 of January, 1995, to Srpska Oslobodjenje. And at page 3 in the English
24 and page 2 in Serbian, at the upper portion of the column at the far
25 left, Dr. Karadzic stated the following:
Page 42291
1 "We had a list of the actions and steps to take but we always
2 waited for the Muslims to make a mistake; and after they made one, we
3 created a union of municipalities and the Serbian autonomous areas next,
4 followed by the regions and eventually our assembly and, finally,
5 republic."
6 Mr. Dodik, that's another reflection of Dr. Karadzic's repeated
7 insistence and emphasis on the fact that he had all the steps prepared in
8 advance and he waited for opportune moments to implement them; correct?
9 A. I did not have such an impression. I think that this is just a
10 PR explanation given by Karadzic at the time. I had no impression that
11 there was an organised plan, especially in terms of municipalities. I
12 think that municipalities were established by the people on the ground
13 rather than that it was anything pre-planned. It was only later that
14 policies that were a response to current events were promoted, and I
15 think that this was fully legitimate. In any case, both the community of
16 municipalities and forming of the republic later on in view of the
17 situation that the Serbian people were in, I think that this would have
18 been done even if Mr. Karadzic had not been the president. That was --
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... the question is not whether
20 you consider it to have been justified or legitimate or not, just whether
21 or not that was the case, and I think you've addressed your position on
22 that.
23 Now, you said you considered this to be some kind of public
24 relations gesture in 1995, but this Court has received evidence that, for
25 example, in January of 1992 Dr. Karadzic, in a telephone conversation
Page 42292
1 with Nenad Stevandic, said:
2 "We have all the moves in the envelopes..." and then said "we
3 have plans for everything. They," referring to some of the local Krajina
4 leaders, "just keep running ahead like oxen after salt."
5 That's D857, pages 6 through 7, but let me show you a similar
6 discussion between Dr. Karadzic and Nenad Stevandic that's 65 ter
7 1D02696, again a conversation that took place well in advance of 1995
8 when the steps were implemented --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give the number again. There's six digits
10 on the transcript.
11 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give the number again, please.
13 MR. TIEGER: Yes, sorry. 1D02696.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. This is a conversation between Nenad Stevandic and
17 Radovan Karadzic that took place in August of 1991, and on page 1 in
18 Serbian and page 1 -- page 1 in English and in page 1 going onto page 2
19 in Serbian. Let's go to page 2, I think, of the Serbian. Stevandic
20 says:
21 "Well, Andjelko and Vojo are going for it full tilt quite
22 recklessly. Brdjanin would like to put a stop to it, have a bit of
23 consultation and reasoning."
24 Dr. Karadzic tells Stevandic:
25 "Tell them not to do anything stupid on any account because then
Page 42293
1 we are accused of these stupidities."
2 Goes on to explain that Alija doesn't have any arguments against
3 the Serbs. He says that he doesn't want to reach an understanding with
4 the Serbs, so don't provide him with any arguments.
5 MR. TIEGER: We move on to page 2. Thank you.
6 Q. And then Karadzic assures Stevandic:
7 "We'll do everything Vojo and Brdjo think but after the failure
8 of the agreements that Alija will bring about, we'll accuse Alija for
9 this failure."
10 So, Mr. Dodik, contrary to the suggestion that what Dr. Karadzic
11 said in 1995 - simply a PR exercise - this is a contemporaneous
12 reflection of his assurance to his followers that he had the plans and
13 they would be implemented at the opportune moment; right?
14 A. Well, what Karadzic is saying really made sense at the time. It
15 was quite rational. As you see, he is saying that nothing stupid should
16 be done and that no one should take any particular measures and this
17 should be positive, of course.
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... we're clear on the
19 relationship between Karadzic and Stevandic, you were asked about -- or
20 you've mentioned Mr. Stevandic in your tape-recorded interview in July of
21 2003, and that's 65 ter 33531. And here was the exchange that followed
22 and what you said about Stevandic. The question was:
23 "Now, this Nenad Stevandic, a 23-year-old medical student and the
24 president of the Sokol Society --"
25 And you said:
Page 42294
1 "Yes, I know the name. He was very -- I know him. He was very
2 present at the manifestations of all sorts that we're asking to get
3 support for this fight that they were talking about all the time and he
4 acted in co-ordination with all these people who --"
5 A. But excuse me, I don't have it here.
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... quite right. Please, let's
7 turn to page 11 of the English and 13 of the Serbian and on both pages it
8 appears at the bottom third of the page.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not 33531?
10 MR. TIEGER: Of 33531.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask something still?
13 JUDGE ORIE: You may ask something if it is an appropriate
14 question.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, everything is appropriate.
16 I'm not sure when and with whom this was recorded. Who was I having this
17 interview with? In 1993, you recorded me ...
18 MR. TIEGER:
19 Q. Mr. Dodik, this is the same interview we looked at and went
20 through yesterday at some length, the one that Mr. Grady -- [Overlapping
21 speakers] ...
22 A. Oh yes, but how can it be from 1993 then?
23 Q. I'm sorry, 2003 was the date --
24 A. Just a second. Just a second. You said -- oh 2003. All right.
25 MR. TIEGER: All right. Can we move one more page on the
Page 42295
1 Serbian, please. Sorry, Madam Registrar, it's the page that has the ERN
2 at the top L0102603, so should be ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: That seems to be the number.
4 MR. TIEGER: Okay. And one more page, please.
5 Q. Your answer begins down ... at the bottom of that page and
6 continues on the top. Oh ... no, it's still not right.
7 MR. TIEGER: One more attempt at that. Can I see the ERN on
8 this, please, 2602 -- turn back to 2602, please. There we are.
9 Q. And it begins with the first question that's by the name "PG."
10 "Now this Nenad Stevandic, a 23-year-old medical student and the
11 president of the Sokol Society --"
12 JUDGE ORIE: We move in English to the next page.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. "Yes, I know the name. He was very -- I know him. He was very
15 present at the manifestations of all sorts that were asking to get
16 support for this fight that they were talking about all the time, and he
17 acted in co-ordination with all these people who were in the police
18 and ... the authorities."
19 And then Mr. Grady asked:
20 "Did you know his relationship between Radovan Karadzic, himself
21 and Radovan Karadzic."
22 "I know that there -- their relationship was very close, and,
23 since people in Banja Luka knew that he was closely linked with Karadzic,
24 I think that gave Stevandic a great deal of power in Banja Luka."
25 And do you stand by those answers in July of 2003, Mr. Dodik?
Page 42296
1 A. Yes, that's how that looked.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you. And I would also tender 1D02696, the document
3 we looked at a moment earlier.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D02696 receives number P7763.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Now, Mr. Dodik, yesterday you were asked toward the end of your
9 examination-in-chief about the assembly session at which the six
10 strategic goals were discussed, and you spoke briefly about the goals as
11 political goals. Then you were then asked about any kind of plan, oral
12 or written, for Muslims to be -- Muslims and Croats to be expelled from
13 territories under Serbian control, and you said that it was not a goal,
14 not even an unwritten one. I want to ask you a few questions about those
15 issues.
16 Now, first of all, you must have been aware that the strategic
17 objectives were being implemented by the Army of Republika Srpska;
18 correct?
19 A. The army had its role that was provided by the law in the
20 constitution. It's defined there what the role of the army was. Of
21 course, in every country, in every state, the army implements the
22 decisions of the highest organs and bodies, first of all, the legislative
23 ones and the parliament. So in the broadest terms, yes. The army in
24 Republika Srpska primarily had to defend the people in the territory of
25 Republika Srpska from the Muslim aggression and later the joint
Page 42297
1 Muslim/Croat aggression, and that was the primary goal of the army. That
2 was how I understood it and how I saw it.
3 MR. TIEGER: Can we have 65 ter 11809, please.
4 Q. And this is an interview in the beginning of February 1993 in
5 Novi Glas of General Milovanovic. For your benefit, Mr. Dodik, if you
6 can direct your attention to the third paragraph down on the next page in
7 English, in the left column, sorry -- and it's the -- the third
8 column ...
9 MR. TIEGER: Can we -- can you scroll farther to the left,
10 please. Thank you. Now this third column. Down -- the -- the first
11 column left third row down. That's it.
12 Q. There, General Milovanovic states:
13 "So far, our army has achieved four strategic goals, that is, the
14 tasks. It has fulfilled four tasks, thus enabling the political
15 leadership in the country to work. We have created the basis so that
16 everybody knows that we exist, regardless of whether somebody recognises
17 us or not, and that is the basis from which we embark on the
18 negotiations."
19 And that, Mr. Dodik, is a reflection of the army's active
20 implementation of the strategic goals which were seen as advancing the
21 Bosnian Serb bargaining position and negotiations; correct?
22 A. That's what the armies still do in the world to this day, so it's
23 no wonder. The armies intervene in Syria even today and then the
24 negotiations follow. So certainly it's the legitimate task of the army,
25 and I think that Mr. Milovanovic has really put it well, and I support
Page 42298
1 him in what he said.
2 MR. TIEGER: I would tender 65 ter 11809.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 11809 receives number P7764.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
6 MR. TIEGER:
7 Q. Now, Mr. Dodik, with respect to what was encompassed by the
8 strategic objectives or how they were to be implemented, you did not
9 participate in the direct formulation of the strategic objectives with
10 President Karadzic and General Mladic when they met on that subject, did
11 you?
12 A. I was not with them personally, but I was at assembly sessions
13 which decided it; and I don't even know when the two of them met, if they
14 did.
15 Q. And you weren't present at meetings when Dr. Karadzic and
16 Mr. Krajisnik met with General Mladic and the corps commanders to discuss
17 the implementation of the strategic objectives; correct?
18 A. No, I wasn't.
19 Q. And you didn't receive the directives that followed those
20 meetings; right?
21 A. I attended assembly sessions and I know approximately what was
22 discussed. Of course, there are all documents about it. I did not
23 receive directives from anyone. At the time, I was an independent MP in
24 the assembly as I told you before. I had only contact with the group of
25 deputies in the assembly. I did not participate in any other forms of
Page 42299
1 decision-making.
2 Q. Well, let's turn to the some of the assembly sessions in that
3 case.
4 During the course of those assembly sessions, Mr. Dodik, did you
5 hear any indications of an intention or a goal or the process of
6 expelling Muslims and Croats? Any hints about that at all during those
7 sessions, sir?
8 A. There was talk and discussions about the war operations and the
9 conflict that was going on, but I never heard that as a discussion about
10 ethnic cleansing. All the time, from the moment the war began, there
11 were constant demands in the assembly to clearly define goals and to have
12 in mind very clearly what the purpose of that war was. Most of these
13 demands came from deputies -- from constituencies that the Serbs had to
14 flee, such as the valley of the Neretva river, where people who had to
15 leave their homes --
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... the question is not: Tell
17 me about all the things you did hear notice assembly sessions in
18 connection with the war. The question was whether you heard any hints or
19 suggestions at all during those sessions about an intention or goal or
20 the process of moving or expelling Muslims and Croats?
21 A. I've said this.
22 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned earlier that you were present at the
23 assembly session at which the strategic goals were announced. I take it
24 that's a reference to the 16th Assembly Session on May 12th, 1992.
25 A. No, no -- yes, the 12th of May. That session was held in
Page 42300
1 Banja Luka; right? I think I was there.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: There was no need to interrupt Mr. Tieger. Yes.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Well, this Chamber has received in evidence the transcript from
7 the 16th Session at which the strategic objectives were enunciated and
8 explained by Dr. Karadzic, and the VRS was established, General Mladic
9 named as chief of the Main Staff, and so on. After Dr. Karadzic
10 enunciated and explained the objectives, do you recall hearing any
11 mention of or discussion about the "conquests" that were necessary in any
12 places where Serbs were not a majority?
13 A. I don't remember any such thing absolutely.
14 Q. All right. And specifically do you remember reference by the
15 delegate from Brcko about the need for conquests, in particular in Brcko?
16 A. Brcko was an important communication hub. I think it was a
17 legitimate goal, but not from the point of view of ethnic cleansing but
18 from the point of view of compactness and communication.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, it's a bit unclear whether this is a --
20 whether you heard about -- whether you remember a reference by the
21 delegate from Brcko about the need for conquests.
22 Could you please answer that question directly.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge, it was a long
24 time ago. I did not review all those transcripts. I suppose there was
25 such talk.
Page 42301
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the only question was whether you remember;
2 apparently you do not.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. TIEGER:
5 Q. Do you remember hearing any representative express satisfaction
6 that the strategic objectives confirmed that Muslims already removed from
7 a Muslim-majority municipality would not be coming back?
8 A. Possibly, but again I don't remember. A long time has passed.
9 It's possible though that there was such talk.
10 Q. This Chamber has already received -- has also received in
11 evidence the transcript of the very next session held in late July 1992 -
12 that's P4581 - and, in particular, has received evidence of Mr. Dukic's
13 remarks --
14 MR. TIEGER: For the benefit of the parties, that's at page 71 in
15 English and page 72 in Serbian.
16 Q. -- referring to Birac and noting:
17 "If we move further, there is Birac which is 100 to
18 108 kilometres away and has 120.000 Muslims. That is how many there
19 were, but I hope that has at least been halved. And --"
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's best to --
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- I think we -- Mr. Dukic, at least visible, is
22 starting speaking at the bottom of this page in English. Is it the next
23 page where we can find it?
24 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, next page in English, certainly, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And are we on the right page in B/C/S?
Page 42302
1 MR. TIEGER: Start on the right page and we also have to move to
2 the next page.
3 JUDGE ORIE: In the middle of the page from where you read, I
4 think.
5 MR. TIEGER: Next page in Serbian page, the one marked 75. One
6 more page in English, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: No speaking aloud.
8 Yes, now we are on the right page in English at least.
9 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
10 Q. This is a short quote, Mr. Dukic -- excuse me, Mr. Dodik.
11 Mr. Dukic expressing the point that Birac had 120.000 Muslims, at least
12 that's how many there were, but expressing the hope that that had at
13 least been halved.
14 Did you hear that expression from Mr. Dukic who was the president
15 of the SDS Executive Board and the co-ordinator of the Birac SAO?
16 A. No. I've said that I wasn't a member of the SDS, and I couldn't
17 have heard that. I did not hear it from Mr. Dukic. I don't remember. I
18 really don't remember.
19 Q. Well, let's turn to another assembly session. Perhaps you recall
20 this comment then.
21 MR. TIEGER: 65 ter 02362.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dodik, I'm a bit puzzled by your observation you
23 couldn't have heard it because you were not a SDS member. This is an
24 assembly session which is not exclusively for SDS members. So therefore,
25 I'm puzzled by your explanation as why you couldn't have heard it, apart
Page 42303
1 from whether you did hear it.
2 MR. TIEGER: Coming up on --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because Mr. Tieger said that
4 Rajko Dukic was the president of the Executive Board of the SDS, so on
5 those grounds I couldn't, whereas at the assembly sessions --
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... Mr. Tieger was quoting
7 from an assembly session, a quote from a person who had functions within
8 the SDS as well.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. All right. What we have on the screen now is a tape-recording of
12 the 22nd Session of the RS Assembly held on the 23rd and 24th of
13 November, 1992.
14 MR. TIEGER: If we could turn to page 78 in the English and page
15 76 in the Serbian.
16 Q. We see the remarks of Mr. Malojevic directed to the proposed Law
17 on Citizenship, and if we look at the second paragraph in English and the
18 third paragraph down in -- in the -- in the second -- the first
19 paragraph in Serbian, Mr. Malojevic makes this point:
20 "Second, the citizenship of Republika Srpska shall be acquired
21 among other things by birth in the territory of Republika Srpska. This
22 refers to all the Muslims and Croats we expelled, in reality they are
23 citizens of Republika Srpska ..."
24 Now, Mr. Dodik, that's an indication, isn't it, that -- of an
25 intention or goal or process of removing Muslims and Croats?
Page 42304
1 A. To tell you the truth, I don't even remember who that gentleman
2 was. How could I know what he said? I don't know what was adopted in
3 the form of law later.
4 Q. Well, do you recall, as we see later on in that page, that on the
5 basis of Mr. Malojevic's remarks that proposed Law on Citizenship was
6 sent back for review?
7 A. That's what it says. Why would I have to remember all that?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dodik, you don't have to remember anything. If
9 you remember, you should tell us what you remember; if you don't
10 remember, tell us.
11 MR. TIEGER: And I would tender that excerpt, it is part of
12 P7196 -- oh, sorry. My mistake. This is already part of that existing
13 excerpted portion.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So nothing --
15 MR. TIEGER: Correct --
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- needed to be done.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. TIEGER:
19 Q. Let me turn, then, to 65 ter 02382, another assembly session,
20 Mr. Dodik, this one the 34th. And if we could turn to page 33 in the
21 English and 31 in the B/C/S, in the Serbian, we find the remarks of
22 Mr. Milinkovic. And he appears to be expressing satisfaction about what
23 has been achieved and reminding others of that. And he says, in about
24 the third sentence of his remarks:
25 "Gentlemen, I would like to hear which municipality, let alone
Page 42305
1 region, is loosing a bigger part of the territory than gaining compared
2 to the percentage of Muslims and Croats who live [sic] there."
3 "I understand from Herzegovina that it is painful to lose the
4 Neretva valley and part are the Nevesinje and Trebinje municipalities,
5 but I never heard anyone saying they were pleased that 30 per cent of
6 Muslims in Trebinje municipality was wiped out, same in Gacko,
7 20 per cent in Nevesinje, 20 per cent in Bileca, that the hydroelectric
8 plant on Trebisnjica and electric power plant in Gacko are left to
9 Serbs."
10 And he goes on to ask:
11 "Should we be this dissatisfied?"
12 And then turning to page 34 of the English and 32 of the Serbian
13 he continues:
14 "Gentlemen, there is no Serbian state in Bosnian pot without
15 gradual depopulation and relocating. If we want ethnically pure Serbian
16 state, and we do, don't we" --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not see the text in
18 the B/C/S.
19 MR. TIEGER: That should be in the middle of the page on 32,
20 approximately -- well, it's hard to measure the lines, but beginning.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: B/C/S we have page 31.
22 MR. TIEGER: It should be 32. I thought I indicated we should
23 move to 32 -- oh, it's e-court page 32. I'm sorry, but I realise they
24 almost correspond to the hard copy pagination.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I thought we had it on the last page, but I'm not
Page 42306
1 quite sure but I saw the ...
2 MR. TIEGER: Now it's the wrong page -- this is hard -- this is
3 e-court page 32, hard copy page 31.
4 JUDGE ORIE: One page back therefore.
5 I do see approximately in the middle at the last word of a line a
6 reference to "gentlemen."
7 MR. TIEGER: Correct.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Approximately just above the middle of the page.
9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 And thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Again the quote is:
12 "Gentlemen, there is no Serbian state in Bosnian pot without
13 gradual depopulation and relocating. If we want ethnically pure Serbian
14 state - and we do, don't we? - if we all know and emphasise that we
15 cannot live with them, then we have to realise that these draft maps are
16 offering exactly that and there has to be relocation."
17 Now do you assert that you didn't hear this reference to the
18 desirability of Muslim departures and what had happened to that point?
19 A. I think it would be fair, Your Honours, for the Prosecutor, when
20 putting to me these transcripts to first confirm my presence at these
21 sessions so that we can discuss it. I don't even know who this man was.
22 I don't think he was even a deputy, a delegate. It's possible that some
23 people who were not deputies still spoke at some assembly sessions, but I
24 don't remember this man. And especially if it's written in the
25 transcript that I was not present at that session, I don't think it would
Page 42307
1 be fair for you to question me about it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you have any recollection about your
3 presence, please tell us. You think -- you've heard the date, isn't it;
4 and otherwise Mr. Tieger will repeat it. If you say, I don't remember
5 that I was present, please tell us, no problem.
6 Mr. Tieger, the date of the assembly session was?
7 MR. TIEGER: [Microphone not activated]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put on your microphone.
9 MR. TIEGER: 27th through 29th of August, 1993, and the 30th of
10 September, 1993.
11 Q. And just to be clear --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Locations?
13 MR. TIEGER: Oh. Look at the cover. Jahorina.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now you've got the dates, you have got the place.
15 Do you have any recollection as whether you were present or not?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked the Prosecutor to read from
17 the transcript whether I was at that session --
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, I
19 asked you a question. Would you please answer that question. Do you
20 remember that you were present at that meeting on those days, assembly
21 meetings, held in Jahorina.
22 Would you please answer that question.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked you that. There were
24 several sessions at Jahorina, several sessions. I can't confirm whether
25 I was at this particular one, but it's written in the transcript. Why
Page 42308
1 are you trying to run away from it?
2 JUDGE ORIE: We're not running away from anything, but we're
3 insisting on you answering questions that are put to you. So you don't
4 remember specifically whether you were present at these meetings.
5 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. And just before we break, I want to look at one more session, the
8 37th Session of the Assembly of Republika Srpska; that's 65 ter 02388.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you, just at the outset, tell the date and
10 the location to avoid any further questions about that. Obviously 10th
11 of January, 1994.
12 MR. TIEGER:
13 Q. As His Honour Judge Fluegge just indicated, that session was held
14 on the 10th of January, 1994, and in -- in Pale, Mr. Dodik.
15 And if we turn to page 110 of the English and page 82 in the
16 Serbian, we see Dr. Karadzic speaking and he says the following -- and
17 this is ... yeah, you should see that toward the upper portion of your
18 page and this appears just about the middle of the page in English.
19 "I know that at the time when we had some unfinished tasks
20 related to military actions, I just prayed to God that nothing be
21 accepted because we had some tasks to complete."
22 And then he says it is a good time for us to make peace now. And
23 then explains:
24 "I was worried a bit that we would not be able to get more than
25 50 per cent of the territory that we chose. For example, in Doboj the
Page 42309
1 Muslims were in the relative majority. At the census before the last
2 one, we were in the relative majority, but this census speaks about a
3 relative Muslim majority. Nowadays Doboj is almost 100 per cent Serbian.
4 The people from mountains moved in the town, and so on. We are not out
5 of danger, we are in great danger, and it is for our benefit that all
6 this ended. The end does not suit the Muslims."
7 So, Mr. Dodik, when you indicated earlier that you hadn't heard
8 anything at assembly sessions that provided an indication of an intention
9 or goal or process of removing Muslims and Croats, did you have in mind
10 the remarks of Dr. Karadzic that there had been unfinished tasks related
11 to military actions and specifically ones that resulted in the
12 demographic change in Doboj from being a majority to being almost
13 100 per cent Serbian?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before the witness answers that question --
15 Witness, do you have any recollection as having been present at
16 the assembly session of the 10th of January, 1994, in Pale?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, I did not expect this.
18 At Pale there were at least four or five sessions. I can't remember the
19 dates, and I asked you kindly when putting this document to me to see in
20 the transcript whether my name is there or not. This way, you are
21 maltreating me.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not maltreating you. In these transcripts,
23 there's no systematic --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean the Prosecutor.
25 MR. TIEGER: [Previous translation continues] ...
Page 42310
1 JUDGE ORIE: Neither is the Prosecutor. You said there were at
2 least five. Do you remember, were you present at all five in Pale?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. I remember that
4 I attended some of them.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Now, Mr. Dodik, I am testing your claim about what could be
9 gleaned about the existence of any intention or plan or process of
10 removing Muslims from what was said at the assembly sessions, so I am
11 asking you what sorts of remarks at assembly sessions you had in mind
12 when you said that. And now I'm asking you if you remembered this
13 particular remark by Dr. Karadzic when you asserted that there were no
14 indications of such an intention or goal or process at the assembly
15 sessions.
16 A. I don't remember.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger --
18 MR. TIEGER:
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. TIEGER: I would tender that excerpt, and I see it's time for
21 the break.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 MR. TIEGER: Before you give that a number, I also -- to keep it
24 chronological, I should also tender the previous excerpts from the
25 34th Session.
Page 42311
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you repeat the number.
2 MR. TIEGER: It should be added to P2508.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The previous one or this one?
4 MR. TIEGER: The ones from the 34th, which was 65 ter 02382, that
5 should be added to P2508 and this --
6 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Too quick.
7 Madam Registrar, is that clear to you what should be added?
8 MR. TIEGER: Sorry --
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I'm sure the Prosecution will
10 notify me of the pages when they're uploaded and put in e-court.
11 MR. TIEGER: Right, yeah.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. TIEGER: Okay. And now I would tender these excerpts from
14 65 ter 02388.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Still to be excerpted?
16 MR. TIEGER: Correct.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar, would you reserve a number for
18 the excerpts still to be uploaded.
19 MR. TIEGER: And that will be added to -- it should be added to
20 P3076.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So it still has to be uploaded and then should be
22 added to --
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, I would appreciate
24 notification.
25 MR. TIEGER: Of course.
Page 42312
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
2 MR. TIEGER: And if I may indicate that I will be concluding very
3 quickly after we return, so for the benefit of my colleagues and the
4 Bench.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Very quickly, Mr. Tieger, meaning 15 minutes?
6 MR. TIEGER: I don't think it will be more than 15 minutes, but
7 in that area of -- I mean, in -- I won't --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
9 MR. TIEGER: I won't be using my -- the full amount of my
10 allotted time.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 Then, Mr. Dodik, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes because
13 we'll take a break and we will resume at five minutes to 11.00.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome back, Mr. Dodik.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. TIEGER:
24 Q. Mr. Dodik, it doesn't really change the question of what you had
25 in mind when you said there were no indications at the assembly sessions,
Page 42313
1 but I did attempt to track down assembly session records in response to
2 your point, and I wanted to show you 65 ter 2870 which is an attendance
3 lists of deputies from the 16th Session through the 35th Session, I
4 believe.
5 And if we look at item 21 we see your name, and it indicates you
6 as -- and this indicates the number of the sessions from which the deputy
7 was absent - and a funny way of putting it - indicates that you were
8 absent from the 17th Session -- actually, seems to list that twice; from
9 the 20th -- the 22nd Session; and from the second part of the 34th, which
10 has about three different periods but the question I asked you about was
11 from the first part of that session.
12 So if that clarifies for you whether or not the records indicate
13 your presence or absence at some of the sessions we discussed, there it
14 is.
15 MR. TIEGER: And I'm happy to tender that, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar --
17 MR. TIEGER: Oh, before we do, could we turn to page 2 in the
18 English, before we leave this document. I just wanted to look at one
19 item.
20 Q. And at number 55, we see, again, Djokoslav Milinkovic who I
21 believe you said was not a deputy but who, in fact, appears to be a
22 deputy?
23 JUDGE ORIE: In all fairness to the witness I think that he said
24 that he thought he was not even a deputy.
25 MR. TIEGER: Fair enough.
Page 42314
1 JUDGE ORIE: But didn't give certain information.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. TIEGER: Okay. So I tender that document.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour --
6 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, just one observation. Mr. Dodik did not
7 mention Milinkovic but Milojevic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That would be another -- I do remember it was I
9 think on the same -- we'll check that, I mean ...
10 MR. TIEGER: And with regard to the 30s -- oh.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I think you first -- you were tendering it.
12 Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 20870 receives number P7765.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P7765 is admitted into evidence.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. And --
17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. -- with regard to the 37th Session, which we discussed and I
19 think was also the subject of your inquiry about whether or not you were
20 present and whether or not you spoke, in fact, Mr. Dodik, the records
21 indicate -- a record of the session indicates that you did speak at the
22 early part of the session. However, if we turn to 65 ter 2388, in
23 English page 65 and Serbian page 49, the chairman, Mr. Krajisnik,
24 indicates:
25 "At that stage in the proceedings we have to do a roll-call in
Page 42315
1 order to see how many deputies are present."
2 He starts indicating how many are gone. Nedjo Gavric is done,
3 Milorad Kuzmanovic was feeling bad, et cetera, and then after the
4 notation about polemics from the seat he says:
5 "I have to note this down into the minutes because we agreed that
6 without a consultation - is Dodik here? - if you allow me I would say
7 something that I'm entitled to. It is very irresponsible behaviour of
8 the deputies to leave the session self-willingly because it very often
9 happens that we do not have a quorum present. It is my suggestion that
10 we conclude that Gavric left without permission and Dodik has well."
11 So it appears that you were gone by that point in the session,
12 Mr. Dodik, and the portion of Mr. Karadzic's remarks that I directed your
13 attention to earlier occurred after that point in the session. So if
14 that answers your questions about attendance.
15 I have a couple of additional assembly sessions I wanted to draw
16 your attention to. This Chamber has received in evidence some of
17 Dr. Karadzic's remarks at the 53rd Assembly Session and that's 65 ter --
18 that's P4584, where Mr. Karadzic said:
19 "We've drawn some maps into which a part of the Neretva valley
20 could be integrated and, of course, access to the sea, the Drina, should
21 be clean. These are all priorities. The corridor must be wide."
22 And then if we could turn to 65 ter 02380 at page 49 in the
23 English and page 40 in the Serbian --
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat the number.
25 MR. TIEGER: 02380.
Page 42316
1 Q. And these are the beginning of Mr. Krajisnik's remarks in the
2 middle of the page in English and toward the bottom quarter of the page
3 in Serbian. And Mr. Krajisnik says --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think -- please check if that is the right page
5 in English. At the middle of the page Mr. Kupresanin is speaking.
6 MR. TIEGER: No, it's Mr. Krajisnik, chairman, and he says:
7 "Vojo Kupresanin has asked me" --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, yes, I missed that. Thank you.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik says:
11 "Vojo Kupresanin has asked me a question. I believe that there
12 is one thing that we must understand. We have strategic aims and how
13 angry do you think the Herzegovinians will be because the Neretva is not
14 our border and how angry they will be because the Drina is not clear and
15 how angry they will be because a part of Sarajevo is no more?"
16 Now, Mr. Dodik, those are both expressions at the assembly
17 sessions about the need to have a clean Drina area which included
18 Muslim-majority areas, Muslim-majority municipalities, within that area;
19 right?
20 A. Of course there were Muslims in Podrinje, just like there were
21 Serbs in Sarajevo. The war produced the same result on both sides
22 practically, and it was that people had to leave their original places of
23 residence and move to some other locations. If a calculation were made,
24 you could see that the number of people on either side was practically
25 identical, so we cannot say that it was the Serbs who expelled the Serbs
Page 42317
1 from Sarajevo; but I think that from the beginning we could have worked
2 in a decent manner. You can see the evidence of my presence here. I
3 feel that you wanted to manipulate me by presenting me quotations, noting
4 my absence. I'm addressing myself to the Prosecutor. I did not attend
5 some sessions but you asked me about them. I --
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, when
7 answering a question, you're giving an answer to a question put to you by
8 the Prosecutor and you're addressing the Chamber, and I invited you
9 earlier to refrain from the kind of commentaries you did. I do that
10 again.
11 You may continue.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. Mr. Dodik --
15 A. So I can answer some questions if I remember and if I was
16 present, but to be expected to comment on something that was said when I
17 was absent, this I can't do.
18 As far as this is concerned, well, Krajisnik himself has said
19 everything. I don't remember those speeches of his. The sessions were
20 always tense, very emotional. Many people took the floor and the
21 atmosphere was very different, if you compare what was being said at the
22 beginning in 1991 and then later in 1995. As a rule, it depended on the
23 developments on the ground.
24 Q. Well, Mr. Dodik, first of all, you had an opportunity to look at
25 the assembly sessions and in the attendance record that we reviewed,
Page 42318
1 which appeared to reflect your attendance at the 33rd Session.
2 MR. TIEGER: But in any event, I tender that excerpt
3 Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 MR. TIEGER: And it should be added to P7359 [Realtime transcript
6 read in error "P7539"].
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that is sufficient information for
8 you that this excerpt uploaded under this 65 ter number should be added
9 to P7539 -- then I read from the ... 7539. And you're instructed to do
10 so.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. Mr. Dodik, you just said that people had to leave their original
15 places of residence and move to some other locations. That's because in
16 the case of Muslims from Podrinje that the Bosnian Serb -- Serbs claimed
17 that area, including Muslim-majority municipalities, as reflected in the
18 comments by Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik, that the Drina must be clean;
19 isn't that right?
20 A. You're manipulating again. I said that the Serbs from Sarajevo
21 had also left --
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you may answer
23 a question. I said again and again you should refrain from accusation of
24 manipulation. And I also instructed you not to seek eye contact with the
25 Defence, which you did several times now this morning. Would you
Page 42319
1 please -- please be aware that by this behaviour that may have an effect
2 on the evaluation of your evidence. You're here and we'd like to hear
3 your evidence and to fully consider it. Would you please keep that in
4 mind. I said so three minutes ago, I said so ten minutes ago, so now I
5 expect you to refrain from doing the same.
6 You may answer the question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember these speeches by
8 Krajisnik.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. Well, you -- the strategic objectives and specifically strategic
11 objective number 3, and the need for the -- a clean Drina included
12 Muslim-majority municipalities like, for example, Gorazde; right?
13 A. That wasn't how I understood it. It was not set down anywhere
14 when I took part in deciding on that and in discussions.
15 Q. Well, let's look at another excerpt from the 33rd Assembly.
16 Again, 65 ter 02380. Page 40 --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Before I do so I may give some additional guidance
18 to you.
19 If Mr. Tieger puts something to you, instead of saying that's
20 manipulation, if you disagree, fine, then you say, Mr. Tieger, I do not
21 agree with that because this is how it was. That's -- without
22 accusations giving the testimony we would expect you to without the
23 aggressivity in your answers.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER:
Page 42320
1 Q. We're going to look at another excerpt from the 33rd Assembly
2 Session, this one at page 40 of the English, page 33 of the Serbian.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And it's from July 1993.
4 MR. TIEGER: Correct. And -- but we've fortunately had a chance
5 to look as well at the assembly session attendance records and -- which
6 are now in evidence for that period of time.
7 Q. And this is Mr. Karadzic speaking and you'll find --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry for interrupting you. I said it's from
9 July 1993. It was wrongly recorded.
10 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
11 Q. And Dr. Karadzic says the following:
12 "Gorazde is ours. Perhaps we will have to make some concessions
13 in parts of Sarajevo itself for Gorazde to remain ours because the Drina
14 is of enormous importance for Republika Srpska and for the Serbian people
15 and lastly it is one of the strategic aims for the Drina not to be a
16 border. That is what we adopted here in this Assembly."
17 And that's a reflection of the fact, Mr. Dodik, that
18 Muslim-majority municipalities like Gorazde were embraced by the
19 strategic objectives and considered to be Bosnian Serb; right?
20 A. Well, here you have Karadzic's speech. I do not agree that it
21 was primarily defined as such and that at the end of the war Gorazde
22 remained on the other side.
23 Q. All right.
24 MR. TIEGER: I tender this excerpt, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And that's an excerpt which should be added to
Page 42321
1 something or ...
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MR. TIEGER: Yes, to P6921.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar informs me that it is already part
6 of exhibit and perhaps, Madam Registrar, you give the number.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the excerpt currently used by the
8 Prosecutor is currently Exhibit P7359. That's page 33 and 34 of the
9 B/C/S and page 40 and 41 of the English.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tiger.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now a little earlier we talked of P7539. Is this
14 the same P number? Earlier it was given 7539 instead of 7359.
15 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, I think that was a transposition of the
16 numbers. Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Which now is the accurate one? Madam Registrar,
18 you --
19 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit is P7359.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's hereby confirmed now.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. Mr. Dodik, this will be my last questions to you. I put it to
24 you, sir, that it is on the basis of this type of information that we've
25 just looked at - some of which you heard directly because you were
Page 42322
1 present at sessions, some of which was known to the other assembly
2 members who were present, and was readily accessible to you and on the
3 basis of similar information which was available either through
4 representatives of the international community or any number of people
5 with whom you had contact - on the basis of such information that you
6 once accused the Bosnian Serb leadership at all levels of organised war
7 crimes and you did that publicly; right?
8 A. I did not have information about that. Possibly in some
9 political discussions, but I don't stand by that any longer.
10 Q. All right.
11 MR. TIEGER: Let's look at 65 ter 33540.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Before we look at that you said:
13 "I did not have information about that."
14 What did you exactly mean by "that"?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean I?
16 JUDGE ORIE: I'm seeking clarification of your answer.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ah, yes. I did not receive
18 information about this so then, of course, I cannot stand by this claim.
19 But I can't deny that I may perhaps have said something like that, but it
20 could have been in some political showdown or in some other similar
21 situation.
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. Let's that I can one step at a time. Again I asked for 33540.
24 This is from the BBC. It's the text of a report by Serbian news agency
25 Beta dated the 12th of January, 2001.
Page 42323
1 "Outgoing Serb Republic Prime Minister Milorad Dodik today
2 accused the Serb Democratic Party (SDS) of 'organising and committing
3 crimes during the war' in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 "'It must be openly said that crimes have been committed in this
5 region under the SDS leadership and this must be punished,' Dodik said.
6 He said that it was to be expected that 'all leading SDS officials at
7 various levels stand before The Hague Tribunal'."
8 Now you were asked about that during the course of your -- about
9 this article during the course of your testimony in the Karadzic case,
10 and you said at transcript page 36903 through -04:
11 "Yes, that was the political struggle between me and the SDS in
12 2001. It was a time of transition of power. You can consider this as
13 political discourse which need not necessarily be based on facts but I'm
14 not denying having said this."
15 And then again at transcript page 36906 you said:
16 "I didn't deny what the BBC says."
17 Does that remain your position, Mr. Dodik, that you don't deny
18 having said these things but you chalk them up to politics?
19 A. Yes, precisely what I said in the quotation that you read out
20 from the Karadzic trial, I do stand by that.
21 Q. Well, does that mean that what you were saying was true but you
22 decided to say it for political reasons, political advantage; or that
23 what you were saying was not true but you decided for political reasons
24 to accuse the SDS of organised war crimes?
25 A. It means what you quoted from the Karadzic trial, so you may
Page 42324
1 quote it again if you like.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please answer the question.
3 Mr. Tieger put to you two possible interpretations of what you said and
4 asked which of the two it is. Could you please answer that question? Is
5 it not true but you said it just for political reasons; or is it true but
6 you expressed yourself on the matter for political gain or political
7 reasons?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were people who committed
9 crimes and they ought to be prosecuted and some have been prosecuted, and
10 I do stand by that and it is part of the truth. But the other part, an
11 abstract qualification of all leading persons from the SDS, could be
12 treated as a political statement. There were persons who participated;
13 some courts have proved their participation and they ought to be
14 published. That's what I said and what I said here as well.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
16 MR. TIEGER:
17 Q. And you were clear that this open accusation that needed to be
18 said, must be openly said, included the top-level SDS leadership, right,
19 because you explicitly excluded Mrs. Plavsic from that characterisation;
20 correct?
21 A. Well, that's how this reads, yes. I do think that she was not a
22 very important person in those processes within the SDS, and that's what
23 I said.
24 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I really get a real answer to the
Page 42325
1 last question.
2 You excluded Madam Plavsic. Does that mean that, apart from her,
3 that your accusation covered also the level at which Madam Plavsic was
4 functioning?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not accuse anyone. I was
6 expressing my political view on this. In the case of Biljana Plavsic
7 when I said that she did not have an important role in the SDS
8 leadership, as I said here in this text --
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... let me --
10 you're moving away from my question. Whether you call it your view on
11 the matter or whether you accused -- excluding or making an exception for
12 Madam Plavsic suggests that in your view or your accusation - whatever
13 you would like to call it - that you covered the top level of the SDS.
14 Is that how we can understand it?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, Your Honour, I said a moment
16 ago that there were people, both at the local level of the SDS and
17 others, who were involved in crimes and should be convicted, and I still
18 think so today. As far as Biljana Plavsic is concerned, it's exactly as
19 I said here: She did not play an important part in the leadership of the
20 party.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Again, you are not -- I try it for a last time to
22 see whether I now get an answer to my question. You said:
23 "I said a moment ago that there were people, both at the local
24 level of the SDS and others ..."
25 Did "others" include the top level of the SDS?
Page 42326
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say that. That's for the
2 Court to determine, but I believe that there was involvement even of the
3 people who were part of the top leadership.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 MR. TIEGER: And I would tender 65 ter 33540, Mr. President, and
6 that concludes my examination.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 33540 receives number P7766.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
10 Mr. Lukic, are you ready to re-examine the witness?
11 MR. LUKIC: I am, Your Honour, thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
14 Let's keep this document on the screen.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dodik, we have this BBC report before us.
17 You have just been asked about the criminal liability of SDS members.
18 Did you ever deal with investigations and determining the
19 culpability of people from the top leadership of the SDS?
20 A. No, I am neither trained nor authorised to do that.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. LUKIC: I just want to make one correction at page --
23 yesterday's transcript, page 42260, 23rd line, it was noted that
24 Mr. Dodik said he give 6.000 various political statements.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Which number did you mention?
Page 42327
1 A. 600.000.
2 MR. LUKIC: Can we have 02366, 65 ter number, on our screens,
3 please.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] -- oh, it's added to
5 that. Sorry.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. This is the record of the 24th Session of the National Assembly
8 of Republika Srpska from 8 January 1993. Page 9 was shown to you.
9 Page 3 in B/C/S.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... in English and
11 page 64 in B/C/S.
12 Q. [Interpretation] And it was put to you that proposals were made
13 for Muslims not to be recognised as a nation. I would need the beginning
14 of this contribution of Vojo Kupresanin to see why this was contested.
15 Mr. Kupresanin says, I quote:
16 "We stumbled over some concepts more than once in the past.
17 Gentlemen, is the Muslim nation a nation at all? The nation that was
18 manufactured and introduced by a concept of Tito's in 1974, receives a
19 position like the Greeks, to say the least. Should we throw out this
20 nation as a nation, and say instead that they are Serb people of Muslim
21 faith?"
22 Mr. Dodik, you are a young man, just as I. Before 1974, do you
23 remember how Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina identified themselves, how did
24 they declare themselves?
25 A. As Serbs and Croats, or Croats of their particular faith.
Page 42328
1 Meso Selimovic, a famous author, declared himself as a Serb and many
2 documents exist about that. Ivo Andric, the Nobel Prize winner, did the
3 same and many other intellectuals as well --
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the following
5 sentence. Could ...
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have to stop here. We don't receive
7 interpretation because the interpreters missed a sentence.
8 MR. LUKIC: I'll --
9 Q. [Interpretation] Please, the English interpretation stopped at
10 one point and I can continued to listen to you in B/C/S. It was stopped
11 when you said:
12 "Ivo Andric ... did the same as did many other intellectuals ..."
13 A. Yes. Until 1974 in documents in the former Yugoslavia, Muslims
14 were marked as a religious group with a small letter m. From 1974, the
15 letter m became a capital and it was decided that they should be
16 designated as a nation, and that what's Vojo Kupresanin is saying. And
17 it was only in 1993 by a decision of the Bosniak Assembly, I believe it
18 was called in Sarajevo, that people receives the name Bosniak.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 A. Which indicates that they themselves had a problem with their
21 self-identification in 1991/1992.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you telling Mr. Dodik that's what happened or
23 are you asking him a question?
24 MR. LUKIC: I think that is he telling us this. I asked a
25 question.
Page 42329
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was you who is speaking? Am I right? Oh. I'm
2 sorry. The record is different. Thank you. I'm sorry.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we briefly see P7662. That's
4 the record of the 38th Session. I have P7662.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think you are referring to P7762.
6 MR. LUKIC: You are right, Your Honour. Yes, you are right.
7 7762. Yes. I apologise.
8 We need page 74 in English version and page 57 in B/C/S version,
9 please.
10 Q. [Interpretation] It was put to you that Mr. Karadzic talked about
11 the implementation of pre-planned steps. In this connection, I'll just
12 mention the number P6999 was also shown you to, page 3 in English and
13 page 2 in B/C/S.
14 Before the war, did Serbs in their political struggle violate the
15 constitutional rights of Muslims and Croats in those pre-planned moves of
16 theirs?
17 A. There is no such evidence. I don't think that happened. I
18 believe, moreover, that several attempts were made in many ways to reach
19 an agreement. Well-known is the situation with the so-called
20 Cutileiro Plan, where the leadership of the Serbs accepted the proposed
21 organisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a complex community.
22 Alija Izetbegovic agreed too, as did the Croatian side. That meeting was
23 in Portugal. But when Alija Izetbegovic returned to Sarajevo he rejected
24 the plan, while the Serbian side never rejected it; but it was impossible
25 to put it in place because Alija Izetbegovic rejected it.
Page 42330
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm a bit puzzled by -- in your question
2 you include the pre-planned moves, whereas - if I understood the witness
3 well - he denied that there were any pre-planned moves. So, therefore,
4 to -- but perhaps I may have misunderstood it, but if you would clarify
5 that because what Mr. Tieger put to him wasn't this an example of
6 pre-planned moves on what happened. The witness always said no -- at
7 least that's how I understood him.
8 Could you please clarify this.
9 MR. LUKIC: I will try to find in the transcript and come back to
10 that topic, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. To conclude this discussion, did you see any action by the
14 Serbian side as action to which Muslims and Croats responded; or was it
15 the case that Muslims and Croats made moves to which Serbs responded in
16 that their action?
17 A. The political and military moves in that time were made
18 exclusively by Muslims and Croats. As for the events that I was involved
19 in, I see them as a reaction to that -- to those moves and to the
20 political decisions they made after Republika Srpska was established,
21 together with all the rest that was necessary to defend the people, first
22 of all, the people that was exposed almost in equal measure on all sides
23 in Krajina, around Sarajevo, and in Herzegovina. Of course, I mean to
24 say that there was awareness of the fact that the Muslims were suffering
25 too, but it's a fact that it was a war, and we did not even have enough
Page 42331
1 information about the suffering of people on the other side.
2 So all those political and military actions were primarily a
3 reaction to the situation that was already in place.
4 Q. Which side aimed to preserve the status quo, that is to say, the
5 existing situation. Which side instead wanted to change the state?
6 Which side, in other words, was forced to take action?
7 MR. TIEGER: [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
9 MR. TIEGER: The first part of the question was fair and then
10 Mr. Lukic went on to draw the conclusion for the witness that he wanted
11 the witness to confirm. That's a very leading question.
12 MR. LUKIC: I think my question was open, which side --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it was not -- yes. If you say which side did
14 this, and this, and this, then you assume that happened. And that makes
15 it a leading question, Mr. --
16 MR. LUKIC: Then I'll rephrase things.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Lukic. Of course -- and could you also make
18 clear in your questions. I think the status quo, the status quo of what
19 exactly? Because the witness has testified several times that the
20 Serbian side very much wished to remain within the Yugoslav --
21 Yugoslavia, whereas the Muslims wanted to move out. At the same time -
22 but that's a totally different matter - the status quo, that is, who
23 controls what territory on the ground in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Could
24 we please try to clearly distinguish between the two, because in your
25 question, it's -- it's really seeking a lot of confusion.
Page 42332
1 So could you please -- and even I wonder whether there's any
2 disagreement about that among the parties. I think that, Mr. Tieger,
3 whether the Serbs wanted to stay in -- in Yugoslavia and whether the
4 Serbs wanted to have certain control over certain territories, I never
5 felt - but perhaps I'm missing something - that there's disagreement
6 about that.
7 MR. TIEGER: Well, it depends to some extent on the time-period,
8 but basically there's no essential disagreement. And in addition, I
9 think it's largely a rehash of what was covered in direct examination.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. LUKIC: It's not a rehash of what's covered in the direct
12 examination. It is answering to the whole line of questions who actually
13 took actions and who took reactions, who had plans and who did not have
14 plans.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and we do -- we are not assisted by putting
16 that all together and asking for the status quo. It depends on status
17 quo of what exactly, at what point in time. If you want to further
18 clarify it and if you think that that's not clear yet, then you have an
19 opportunity to do so.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. All right. We've heard -- it's not in dispute that you've said
22 that the Muslim/Croat side was in favour of Bosnia separating from
23 Yugoslavia and the Serbs were against that. In this situation, according
24 to you, who had to have the active role? And what did you see on the
25 ground in that respect? Who had an active role? Were the Serbs actively
Page 42333
1 trying to stay in Yugoslavia? Or was it that Muslims and Croats were
2 actively trying to separate, to secede?
3 A. The active role was the role of Muslims and Croats, and that's
4 what I explained earlier, talking about the unilateral secession of
5 Slovenia and Croatia from Yugoslavia. That was obvious even in mid-1991
6 when in Bosnia-Herzegovina nothing indicated it was in the offing. Such
7 support also -- such support by foreign countries to Slovenia and Croatia
8 was also a requirement for Bosnia and Herzegovina to do so the same. And
9 if you look at the dates, you will see that the decisions of the Serb
10 people were always a reaction to what was going on around them. It can
11 be evidently seen from the chronology and the chronology proves it.
12 As for plans or lack of plans, when you are put in a position
13 where you have to make a decision, then you have to think about what to
14 do. In that context, almost all of us, regardless of whether we were
15 told to do so or not, we had to do something. We had to constitute a
16 republic. If you constitute a republic, then you have to adopt a
17 constitution and laws. That's the logic of events. Of course, you can
18 interpret it as a sort of pre-conceived action, but it was simply a
19 necessity.
20 The decision of Muslims and Croats led to a unilateral secession
21 contrary to local legislation. It was just a reflection of the political
22 will of the political representatives of Muslims and Croats in
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were no state decisions made to that effect.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dodik. It's time for the break. I'll try to
25 finish as soon as I can in the next session so that you can return to
Page 42334
1 your normal obligations.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break. Could you follow the
3 usher, Mr. Dodik.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: And before we take that break, Mr. Lukic, you tried
6 to finish as soon --
7 Mr. Mladic, would you refrain from communicating with the public
8 gallery.
9 Mr. Lukic, as soon as possible means what?
10 MR. LUKIC: I hope I will finish in less than half an hour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Less than half an hour. That would also mean
12 that -- I do understand that the next witness was scheduled to arrive not
13 later than 1.00, but we might need him a little bit earlier.
14 And is there any news about his availability before 1.00,
15 Madam Registrar?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the Victims and Witness Section are
17 doing their best to bring the witness earlier.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll see whether he arrives in time so that
19 we would not lose any further time.
20 We take a break and resume at quarter past 12.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps briefly, I think there was an issue about
24 Mr. Malojevic and another person. At the same time I noted that
25 Mr. Malojevic addressed the others as colleague deputies or so, so --
Page 42335
1 which is a suggestion that he was a deputy himself as well.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE ORIE: But I leave that open and I don't think it's that
4 vital that we should pursue the matter at this moment.
5 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I owe you one reference too.
7 When we discussed whether Mr. Dodik mentioned any actions, plans, on the
8 Serbian side - and it was in connection with the document now P7762 - at
9 page 3 of today's transcript, line 15, it was the question, and at line
10 20, Mr. Dodik said, I quote:
11 "A. It was such a time that certainly we did make certain moves,
12 and they were completely legitimate from the view of establishing
13 Republika Srpska. Since Yugoslavia broke up using the people's right to
14 self-determination, which was set out in the constitution of SFRY, the
15 Serbs were entitled to have their own territorial organisation. That was
16 how it was understood and how I understood it. So moves of this
17 character constituting an entity were fully legitimate, but they were
18 always a reaction to something else. That's also true."
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it looks as if we are now ending up in
20 argument. I think the emphasis was on the pre-planned. I leave it for
21 the time being. I asked it because your question was not about moves but
22 about pre-planned moves.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Can we have 02362 on our screens, please,
25 and we need pages 78 in English version and 76 in B/C/S version.
Page 42336
1 Q. [Interpretation] This document or these minutes talk about the
2 citizenship of Republika Srpska, and you were presented this part where
3 it is gained, inter alia, by birth. It's obvious that there was some
4 uncertainty about this, so Slovenian and Croatian practice is invoked.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need paragraph 4 in the B/C/S
6 version and paragraph 5 in the English version.
7 Q. Where it is said:
8 "Just an example of how the Slovenes and the Croats did that."
9 "We have various excerpts. In Slovenia, the Serbs signed loyalty
10 papers but couldn't get citizenship. There is not a single Serb who was
11 immediately granted citizenship in Slovenia even if he was born there.
12 All they did was sign loyalty to the Republic of Slovenia."
13 Do you remember now whether any of the Muslims or Croats were
14 stripped of their citizenship because during the war they left the
15 territory that was under the control of the Serbian forces during the
16 war?
17 A. No, I'm not aware of any such instances of anyone being stripped
18 of their citizenship. I know that there were many Muslims and Bosniaks,
19 as they were later called, who were even members of the Army of
20 Republika Srpska. I've known some of them since my childhood, and I know
21 that they experienced no problems with citizenship whatsoever.
22 Q. You were shown P2508. What should have been added was a part
23 from 65 ter 2382. It was the assembly in Jahorina from the 27th to 29th
24 August and the 30th of September, 1993. You were shown page 33 in
25 English and page 31 in the B/C/S, and we saw all sorts of things that
Page 42337
1 were proposed.
2 Were movements of population ever organised as, for example,
3 between India and Pakistan?
4 A. I'm not aware of any such instances.
5 Q. With regard to document - we shan't look at it because it's not
6 necessary - marked as 65 ter 02380 you were shown page 49 in English and
7 page 40 in B/C/S. It was a speech of former President Karadzic about
8 Podrinje and Gorazde and the fulfilment of the third strategic goal.
9 Do you know whether there was any fighting in Podrinje?
10 A. Yes, there were some clashes, but what do you mean by "fighting"?
11 You mean at the beginning of the war?
12 Q. Throughout the war, from Gorazde, for example? Did Gorazde go to
13 war, because it had been declared a safe zone?
14 A. Yes, I knew that the units from Gorazde would leave the protected
15 zone and enter the Serbian territory, just as they did in Srebrenica.
16 But the result of it all was that today Gorazde is administered by
17 Bosniaks and Muslims and the number of Serbs remaining there is
18 ridiculous. But I knew that Gorazde was a protected zone and I could
19 hear from time to time that there were some clashes going on there and
20 that they were the result of the phenomenon that I just described.
21 Q. President Dodik, thank you for answering our questions. We won't
22 take any more of your time. Thank you, and have a safe journey back
23 unless we see each other.
24 A. Thank you.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
Page 42338
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, any further questions for the witness?
2 MR. TIEGER: No. Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dodik, this then concludes your evidence in this
4 court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to
5 The Hague. We're happy that you -- we can release you well in time so
6 that you can perform your duties and return home because that is what we
7 wish you, that is, a safe return home again.
8 You may follow the usher.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I would just ask to be excused so -- to
12 greet President Dodik, and I would have to leave the courtroom for that
13 since he is leaving the city immediately.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are excused.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Co-counsel is there so ...
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the next witness apparently has arrived. Could
19 he be escorted in the courtroom.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
22 MR. TIEGER: Just to note quickly, Mr. President, that the Court
23 had asked yesterday about the necessity of tendering certain excerpts
24 from the tape-recorded interview. Accordingly, I looked back at that. I
25 think we can cut the number of exerts tendered in half. The first one
Page 42339
1 was the one where the witness first initially said he wouldn't confirm
2 anything that wasn't -- although there was a subsequent apparently
3 confirmation and in respect of another one, I think the Court indicated
4 to the witness when he was contextualising that the entire page would be
5 admitted. So in light of that, I thought it best not to remove that from
6 the list, but otherwise we'll -- we will act in accordance with the
7 suggestion made by the Court yesterday about the need to do so in light
8 of the witness's confirmation.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand that the witness has not yet
10 arrived at the premises?
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, Mr. Stojanovic, the witness apparently
13 has not arrived. He was scheduled to arrive not later than 1.00. I
14 suggest that we take the break now, another 20 minutes, and then have a
15 slightly extended last session which goes until quarter past 2.00. That
16 would be a session of one hour and 20 minutes then.
17 MR. IVETIC: We are agreeable.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that's how we will proceed.
19 We take a break, and we resume at five minutes to 1.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the
23 courtroom.
24 Mr. Ivetic, I do understand that the 92 ter material now does not
25 anymore include the procedural matters some ten pages of the whole of it.
Page 42340
1 Final question: The 92 -- the 65 ter summary refers to the Markale
2 market, 28th of August, 1995, but that seems to be a mistake.
3 MR. IVETIC: That's a mistake, yeah. It's the first one.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what sounds more logical.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. --
7 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- Moroz. Before you give evidence, the Rules
9 require that you make a declaration.
10 THE WITNESS: Sorry. As far as I understand, Serbian interpreter
11 works here.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we check -- could you check --
13 THE WITNESS: So for me it's better to communicate in English.
14 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
15 THE WITNESS: Yeah ... mm-hmm.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could the witness -- could the earphones be on
18 channel 4, the English. It is.
19 Mr. Moroz, before you give evidence and I think that's -- was
20 part of previous experience as well. We'll keep a close eye on whether
21 your mastering of the English language is such that we would allow you to
22 continue in English or not, or whether we would urge you to use your
23 native language. But we'll start as you suggest. Would you please make
24 the solemn declaration, of which the text is now handed out to you.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay. I solemnly declare that I will speak the
Page 42341
1 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: SERGII MOROZ
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Moroz.
4 Mr. Moroz, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic. You find
5 Mr. Ivetic to your left. Mr. Ivetic is member of the Defence team of
6 Mr. Mladic.
7 Please proceed.
8 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
9 Q. Good day, Colonel, sir. I would first ask that you state your
10 name for purposes of the record.
11 A. I am Sergii Moroz. Well, this is my full name.
12 Q. And, sir, if I can ask you: Have you previously testified at
13 this Tribunal in other cases?
14 A. Yes, I testified previously two times, in Karadzic and --
15 just ... Galic.
16 Q. Galic.
17 A. Galic case, yes.
18 Q. And at this time I would ask for 1D03955 in e-court.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. And that will be a transcript from the Galic case dated the 22nd
21 and 23rd of January, 2003. Do those dates -- are they in accord with
22 your recollection of when you testified in the Galic case?
23 Does that sound right that you testified in January of 2003 in
24 the Galic case?
25 A. Well, yes, but this is about Russian channels something. What
Page 42342
1 does it ... what does it mean?
2 MR. IVETIC: If we could -- [overlapping speakers] --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Has the witness the English channel on his screen?
4 Could we check that.
5 Yes, we have ...
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is English, but this transcript is about
7 some conversation between Judge and interpreters.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but all together it's 84 pages --
9 THE WITNESS: Ah, okay.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- so it's not only this one page.
11 Perhaps, Mr. Ivetic, you ask him whether he has reviewed it.
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
13 Q. Colonel, did you have occasion to review this transcript first in
14 the Karadzic case and then last night to see if everything is correct?
15 A. Yes, I have a chance to look -- to look it through.
16 MR. IVETIC: And if we can briefly turn to page 3 in the e-court
17 which will be transcript page 18116 of the underlying Galic transcript
18 and if we could zoom in on lines 3 through 5.
19 Q. And, sir, here your answer is recorded as saying:
20 "I graduated from the military institute."
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. "I am professional military retired lieutenant-colonel. So now I
23 live in Kiev. I am conflict administrator in Procter & Gamble Ukraine."
24 Is this part of the transcript still correct? That is to say,
25 are you still employed by Procter & Gamble in that position?
Page 42343
1 A. No. Currently I work in another company Unipharm Incorporated,
2 it's American company, European small division. So I am administrative
3 manager over there, but all the rest remains the same.
4 Q. Okay. So apart from this one correction, do you stand behind the
5 rest of the transcript as being correct?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. And if were to ask you the same questions as in the transcript
8 today, would your answers be the same as in the transcript?
9 A. Well, of course, when I look through yesterday the transcript, I
10 understood that I forgot a lot of things. But now I refresh my memory
11 and I'm absolutely sure that those days I talked the truth.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, we would then - based upon that
14 answer - tender 1D03955 as a public exhibit.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document 1D03955 receives number
17 D1370.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Admitted into evidence.
19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this time I have a short summary of
20 D1370 which I have prepared and which I explained yesterday to the
21 witness is for purposes of the public to hear what is contained therein,
22 and I have distributed I hope to the booths in the last break.
23 Colonel Sergii Moroz is a retired professional military
24 lieutenant-colonel from Kiev, Ukraine, who was a member of the UNPROFOR
25 forces in Sector Sarajevo between October 1993 through October 1994. He
Page 42344
1 was a mission commander within an engineer section. His unit was a
2 specific unit within the Sector Sarajevo headquarters whose main task was
3 renovation and repair of civilian objects, such as electricity lines,
4 sewage systems, water and gas systems of both warring sides.
5 In performing the repair work, mixed working teams were formed
6 consisting of members of the warring sides, who accompanied the UN
7 engineers. Co-operation was very productive.
8 Repair missions were almost every day. In relation to the
9 electrical utilities, the repairs were mostly required to be done to
10 pylons on Serbian-held territory. The damage was caused by gun-fire on
11 the one hand, and by mortar fire from the Serbian side -- from the,
12 pardon, Muslim side on the other hand.
13 In relation to water supplies, drinking water was always
14 available in Sarajevo. The only difficulties were due to low water
15 pressure, such that civilians had to take water in a reservoir from the
16 ground floor up to their apartments on higher floors.
17 As to the gas supply, due in part to Russia cutting or
18 diminishing the gas supply, and second that is correct gas pipelines were
19 damaged in places.
20 As to the supply of water, nearly all the valves to wells were on
21 the Muslim side in Sarajevo. When the UN received complaints of the
22 Muslim side that the Serbs had cut off the water, upon inspection, it was
23 revealed the valves on the territory controlled by the Muslim army were,
24 in fact, closed.
25 During his deployment, the witness nearly every other day during
Page 42345
1 the evening experienced that the Muslim side would fire mortars from near
2 the PTT building where he was situated and the Serb side would respond.
3 Ukrainian soldiers of UNPROFOR at the Tito barracks complained to him
4 that it was hard to sleep because the Muslim side often did the same near
5 that location.
6 It was the opinion of the witness that such Muslim mortars had no
7 military purpose.
8 At the beginning the uniforms and weapons of the Muslim side were
9 obsolete but near the end of the witness's deployment, he saw new
10 uniforms and new weapons in their possession.
11 As to the Markale explosion in 1994, a Russian UNMO involved in
12 the investigation told the witness that the investigation revealed that
13 the shell could not have come from the Serb side and that the explosion
14 was too great to have been one mortar shell. The Russian officer was of
15 the opinion that a special explosion device was brought into the
16 market-place. Another Russian who was a member of UNPROFOR told the
17 witness the Russian Battalion had seen, via night-vision goggles, that
18 the Muslim soldiers would go into the neutral zone and further onto the
19 zone of the Serb side and the next day fire would come from that same
20 area into the city.
21 And that concludes the summary. And I would have some additional
22 questions for the witness, but with the assistance of the usher we can
23 perhaps provide him with a hard copy, which might be easier to read, of
24 the transcript than the version on the screen.
25 And while we give time for that to happen, I can ask to turn to
Page 42346
1 page 11 of the transcript in e-court. Page 11 should correspond to
2 transcript page 18124 of the Galic transcript.
3 Q. And if we could focus on lines 1 through 8, sir. Here you were
4 asked the question as follows:
5 "Q. Mr. Moroz, can you tell us whether when going out for repair
6 work whether did you form some mentioned working teams. Was there any
7 need for that?"
8 And your answer is recorded as:
9 "A. Yes, there were such cases when mixed teams were
10 formulated and usually it was done for two reasons. Sometimes one of the
11 warring sides provided repair parts, and they want -- they wanted to be
12 sure that these repair parts are really installed in the object. It was
13 one of the reasons."
14 Sir, can you tell us in relation to these mixed working team as
15 what was the attitude of both the Serb and Muslim sides toward these
16 mixed teams?
17 A. Well, worker who participated in those teams understood the
18 importance for both sides of the job they did, and so they do it like
19 normal important job.
20 Q. And were there any problems encountered in the work of those
21 mixed teams?
22 A. As far as professional point of view, no problems occurred
23 because those people usually knew each other for long time, before war
24 they worked together. But as for their personal relationship during
25 the -- the job, they tried to be very polite and very conservative in
Page 42347
1 relations because it was my personal opinion that they didn't want to be
2 accused of their friends that they keep relationship with the enemy.
3 Q. And now if we can turn to page 14 in e-court and that would be
4 transcript page 18127 of the Galic transcript, and I'd like to look at
5 lines 18 through the end of the page and it says here -- the question you
6 were asked is as follows:
7 "Q. And did you know what caused the damage of these cables in
8 Vogosca which then had such an effect that you indicated, that is, power
9 cuts?"
10 And you answered as follows:
11 "A. So sometimes it was gun-fire and so the damage was not very
12 big. Just one of the wires was cut. And the other reason was mortar
13 fire from the Muslim side in the direction of Volkswagen plant because,
14 as far as I know, so I'm sure of that because Muslim workers often told
15 me that there were rumours inside the city that on that plant an
16 ammunition work-shop was organised. I've been to that plant during the
17 mission, and I" - and we need to turn the page - "hadn't seen any working
18 activity on that plant, because it was seriously damaged."
19 If I can first focus on this reference to the Volkswagen plant,
20 can you -- can you explain for us where that plant is located in
21 reference to the power plant?
22 A. So it was very close to the power plant and I think that it was
23 built there just to use the electricity from this power plant. Well, and
24 I've seen the territory of this and I personally was inside that
25 territory. Because my boss, French officer, asked me, just have a look
Page 42348
1 on the territory, because there were rumours that some work-shop of
2 ammunition production is organised there. Well, I asked Serbian
3 engineers to accompany me on the territory, so they did it, and so I -- I
4 saw that only just spare parts were obsolete, very old, are piled there,
5 so no activity, no transport traffic so that everything was calm there.
6 Q. And the power plant that is mentioned, to which side in the
7 conflict did that plant provide electricity, which of the warring sides?
8 A. For both sides.
9 Q. And if we could focus on the part of your answer where you
10 mentioned that wires were cut by gun-fire. Could you explain your
11 impression of how that happened.
12 A. So it's actually not my impression, but I -- I asked workers on
13 both sides why wires are cut so often, what was the reason. Because when
14 pylon is damaged by a shell, by shelling, it's visible and everything
15 understandable. But why wires are cut. And I was told that probably
16 fragments of -- of shells are reasons of that, and they told me that
17 sometimes snipers so boast in front of other soldiers how so precise they
18 are and they fired from sniper rifles shoot in the direction. Probably
19 that, but that were the reasons.
20 Q. And now beginning at line 12 of the same page, you were asked
21 about problems supplying water to parts of Sarajevo. And here you
22 mention how pumping water from reservoirs was utilised but due to lack of
23 electricity or parts sometimes that didn't work.
24 And if we can turn to the next page, and here at the top you say
25 that due to the low pressure some people had to carry water up from the
Page 42349
1 ground floor to their apartments, and then you say at lines 9 through 10:
2 "Nevertheless, to drink water -- drinking water was always inside
3 the city."
4 And I'd like to ask you: To what part of the city did this
5 apply, which side had drinking water available in this nature?
6 A. Well, there were difficulties with the water supplying because
7 there were periods, especially during winter, when pumping stations in
8 Ilidza, where water was pumping into the mountain of Mojmilo, were not
9 operational due to -- sometimes the reason was lack of electricity and
10 for some period, it was around two months, only -- there were around a
11 dozen of engines pumping water and only several of them were operation.
12 And that is why there was a -- it was a lack of water in reservoir in
13 Mojmilo. Just to make water pressure enough for people to use it, in the
14 evening, so engineer officer closed wells on the mountain of Mojmilo just
15 to make enough stock of water in the tank on the city, and in the
16 morning, he is -- he opened that well. Well, but even this water was not
17 enough to make enough pressure for -- for the city, and only ground or
18 first floor of buildings have it. I speak mostly about the old city.
19 But there were several weeks when even on first floors water was absent,
20 and trucks with water tanks were organised to -- well, to bring water for
21 the population, and the main source of the water during that period was a
22 big reservoir on the brewery, city brewery, because it was the lowest
23 point in the city.
24 Q. Okay. And now if we could turn to page 75 in e-court which
25 should correlate to transcript page 18205 of the Galic transcript I would
Page 42350
1 like to focus on line 17 onward where Judge El Mahdi asked you some
2 additional questions about the water and the question was as follows:
3 "Thank you" --
4 A. Just a moment.
5 Q. Yeah --
6 A. Page 18 --
7 Q. 18205 in the paper copy. And so line 17 and onwards the Judge
8 asked you:
9 "Thank you. Then if I may, I'd like to move on to another
10 subject on which I need clarification. It has to do with the water
11 supply. And I'm quoting you in English: [In English] "-- Was the section
12 chief who examined personally pipelines. And very often he was -- he
13 came from the mission in a bad mood because on Muslim side wells were cut
14 off."
15 And you answered:
16 "Closed. Not cut off probably. I put in a wrong way. They were
17 closed."
18 And then General -- pardon me, Judge El Mahdi went on to say:
19 "And who was it who did" - if we can turn the page - "that?
20 Which side? Was it the Muslim side which closed the wells?"
21 And you answered:
22 "Yes."
23 And then the Judge asked:
24 "Why would they do that? What would they gain in this way, in
25 your view. Was it the sabotage or what was it? "
Page 42351
1 And you answered as follows:
2 "So the greater part of valves -- I think nearly all valves were
3 on Muslim side, and so I can't be sure about the purpose of this closure,
4 but usually the day when it was closed UNPROFOR got complaint from Muslim
5 side that Serbs cut off water from Sarajevo.
6 Judge El Mahdi said then:
7 "Yes. And it was then said -- it was claimed that it had been
8 done in the area that was controlled by the Muslim army; is that so?"
9 "A. Yes.
10 Judge El Mahdi:
11 "And how often did this happen? Was it once or more often?"
12 And you answered:
13 "No, no, much more than once. Dozens of times during my tour of
14 duty, especially in the first half during winter and spring 1994."
15 Now I'm going to ask you in relation to these circumstances,
16 these dozen or so times, when your commander came back in a bad mood
17 after finding that the valves to the wells were closed, do you know if it
18 was ever officially reported within UNPROFOR that this was the case?
19 A. Well, I don't know what were his actions -- what actions he did
20 after such trips but usually after each mission we filled in form in
21 computer and send it like a report or so -- the report of the day. And
22 probably -- I'm sure he did some reports, but whether it -- what were the
23 results and who analysed those reports, I don't know.
24 Q. Thank you for that.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who is the "he"?
Page 42352
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. Could you answer the Judge's question, who is the "he" that
3 you've been referring to?
4 A. It was the officer -- French officer, major -- his name Philippe
5 but I don't remember the last name because for me French last names it's
6 very difficult to remember.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was he one of your supervisors?
8 THE WITNESS: Nevertheless, I can't say that I do remember all
9 supervisors in my life.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: But was he one of your supervisors?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: Well, Philippe, well I don't remember. More than
14 20 years have passed, unfortunately. But I remember that he was very
15 frustrated about that because from the humanitarian point of view he
16 couldn't understand why somebody did such things.
17 MR. IVETIC:
18 Q. And if we could turn to page 22 in e-court and that will be
19 page 18135 of the Galic transcript and it will be talking about the gas
20 supply. And I'd like to focus beginning at line number 4 --
21 A. Just a moment --
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. I'll find it.
24 Q. 18135, sir. Take your time.
25 A. Yes, I found it.
Page 42353
1 Q. And so beginning at line 4 the question posed was:
2 "In what way? What information did you have concerning the gas
3 supply to the city, and where was the city supplied with gas from?"
4 And you answered as follows:
5 "So I got an order from my chief to visit first gas company
6 inside the city, and I had conversation with the chief - I do not
7 remember his name - to clarify the reasons there were not gas in the
8 city. So the answer was that first Russia cut -- or diminished, reduced,
9 gas supply to Bosnia; and the second, that gas pipelines in some places
10 were damaged and due to that, gas pressure is very low in the city.
11 After that I went to the Serbian side and spoke to -- I mentioned this
12 man Krajisnik. And he confirmed that information, that gas supply is
13 reduced to a great extent and there were damages on the line but due to
14 low pressure it is very difficult to find the places of the leak, gas
15 leak on the lines. So only two times I've been involved in such missions
16 and -- so no other missions I had."
17 And the first question I want to ask is: When you say first went
18 to a gas company inside the city, which warring party controlled that gas
19 company?
20 A. It was the Muslim side, and it was just distributing company,
21 which was responsible for gas lines inside the city.
22 Q. And was it explained to you what was meant when they said Russia
23 cut or diminished the gas supply to Bosnia?
24 A. Well, of course, first reaction of the director was Serbs are --
25 are responsible for that. But after conversation why they did -- they
Page 42354
1 switched off -- they cut gas, after that he explained me which you just
2 read, the reasons you've just read. And, well, the Serbian side was
3 responsible and controlled big pipelines which received gas from Russia,
4 and the director of this company, transporting company, Krajisnik,
5 explained me nearly the same which I had from the director of the
6 first company.
7 Q. And in relation to the gas that was affected, which gas -- which
8 of the warring parties was affected by these problems in the gas supply?
9 A. Both sides.
10 Q. Next, I want to move to a different topic and I want to look at
11 page 27 in e-court, and that will be transcript page 18140 of the hard
12 copy of the Galic transcript. And I'd like to look at lines 16 and
13 onwards on this page, and if we're all there the question starts off
14 asking you:
15 "You personally during your stay, did you know about firing from
16 mortars? And if you did, could you tell us in which situations."
17 And your answer reads as follows:
18 "Well, during my missions, we were not fired -- our missions
19 were -- as far as I remember, were not fired by mortars. Usually it was
20 just exchange -- fire exchanged between warring sides. And we were -- at
21 that moment we were somewhere in the middle. But the greater mortar
22 activity was during the night, and very often just close to PTT building
23 where I was staying during the night, Muslim side -- Muslim soldiers
24 fired from mortar and then it was an answer from Serbian side. Nearly --
25 especially during winter 1994, nearly each other day the night" - if we
Page 42355
1 can turn the page - "started from the mortar exchange. And the same
2 story was with Tito barracks where Ukrainian battalion was located.
3 Officers complained to me that it's hard to sleep because very often fire
4 exchanges [sic] took place."
5 Now, the first question: This PTT building where you say you
6 were located, what else was located at that building such that you would
7 be there during the night?
8 A. Sorry, will repeat, please, your question.
9 Q. Who or what was located at the PTT building?
10 A. So Sector Sarajevo headquarters were -- was located over there.
11 Q. Okay. And do you know if anyone ever complained to the Bosnian
12 Muslim side about their firing of mortars close to where the UN was?
13 A. Well, I don't know if it was done officially, but I know that
14 officers who contacted -- liaison officers who contacted both sides
15 informed them about such shelling.
16 Q. And if we could focus on the return fire from the Serbian side,
17 were there complaints made by the Bosnian Muslim side about that return
18 fire?
19 A. Well, again, I don't know if it was done officially, but in the
20 conversation with Serbian soldiers and officers, I heard that they
21 complained that and asked me why UNPROFOR doesn't stop it. Well -- but
22 all of that was unofficial conversation on my level.
23 Q. Understood. And if we could turn to page 38 in the Galic
24 transcript, which will correlate to transcript page 18151, you are again
25 being asked about this shelling from the PTT building and this time the
Page 42356
1 Judge's question beginning at line 14 is as follows:
2 "May I interrupt you. I think that this is not exactly the
3 information that you're seeking, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
4 "Do you have any personal opinion as to whether militarily it is
5 acceptable to fire from a place which is -- was a short distance from the
6 PTT building?
7 And your answer was as follows:
8 "Well, my opinion is the following: From the military point of
9 view, there was no use firing mortar shelling from that area."
10 And, sir, I'd like for you to explain to us militarily why --
11 what you meant when you said there was no use in the mortar shelling that
12 the Bosnian Muslim side was doing from near the PTT building.
13 A. Well, when mortar shelling is used, it -- it should be from a
14 militarily point of view some targets should be reached. Well, some -- I
15 don't know units, diminished, destroyed, but it should be accompanied by
16 infantry actions, small-armour shelling, so on and so forth. It should
17 be some co-ordinated actions. But when people did four, five round
18 shelling and then -- so withdrew their weapons from that point and that
19 is all, I see no reasons in that. Just only -- just only to make it
20 public, to make it some familiar noise.
21 Q. And now if we could turn to another topic --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic --
23 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- before you turn to another topic.
25 Could you tell us where did those shells land?
Page 42357
1 THE WITNESS: I don't know, because usually it was at night and
2 it was somewhere in the mountains. So ... it was a very often from my
3 point of view, because I saw only the place of shelling from the balcony
4 where I lived. We -- I personally several times saw it and where shell
5 was directed, it was very hard to -- to determine.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have another question. You said shelling
7 with mortars doesn't make any sense if there's no follow-up infantry, et
8 cetera. Was that common that if one of the parties was shelling using
9 mortars, that there be would a follow-up with infantry? Could you please
10 explain that for both sides.
11 THE WITNESS: There were several military operations, so
12 considerable clashes, when infantry and even heavy mortar was used in
13 some areas of Sarajevo. But usually this mortar exchange fire was very
14 sporadic, and it seems to me it was just to exert psychological pressure
15 on each other. Both sides used that tactics.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because this Chamber has heard quite some
17 evidence about mortars being fired and very often without any infantry
18 activity accompanying it.
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is that what you refer to as just psychological
21 pressure?
22 THE WITNESS: Yeah, yeah.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, could you give us an assessment on how
24 much of the mortars being fired was the psychological pressure and how
25 much of it was in support of any infantry activity?
Page 42358
1 THE WITNESS: It's hard to say, but I can say that more or less
2 big infantry actions was during my year of duty in Sarajevo, probably a
3 couple of months. All the rest it was just sporadic fire exchange,
4 sniper activities -- snipers killed a lot of people, mostly civilians, in
5 Sarajevo.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I asked you without referring to any one
7 of the sides, was that the same for both sides or was there a difference
8 in this respect?
9 THE WITNESS: I saw -- personally me, I saw mostly inside
10 Sarajevo because I lived in PTT which was located inside Sarajevo, and so
11 was moving around the city on APC. Also most -- the greater part of my
12 missions were inside Sarajevo. That is why I saw more.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say because of your limited movement you
14 were -- naturally saw only part of it and that is mainly, if I understand
15 you well, incoming fire in Muslim-held territory.
16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yes, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. And now if we can turn to page 64 in e-court of the transcript,
21 and that will correlate to page 18186 in the paper copy of the underlying
22 Galic transcript. And I'd like to start at line 23 of the same in
23 relation to an answer that you are giving. And you say:
24 "Yes. I remember now what I meant when saying that. Serbs --
25 the Serbian side very frequently blamed Muslim side that Muslim snipers
Page 42359
1 used neutral zone or even went on Serbian territory, shoot from the
2 Serbian" - next page - "territory at civilian citizens and even killed
3 them just to -- just to provoke firing back and to blame Serbian side in
4 atrocities. I couldn't -- so personally I couldn't neither prove nor
5 disprove that. But I had a conversation with a Russian UNPROFOR officer
6 which I met after the Russian battalion arrival in February -- it seems
7 to me it was in February, yeah -- in February 1994. They had -- the
8 Russian Battalion had a couple of check-points just close to the river on
9 the -- again, on the south bank of the river. Now, I know that. Well,
10 and this officer, lieutenant, it seems to me -- it seems to me I remember
11 his family name Chervonenko. It is a Ukrainian family name. That is why
12 I remember."
13 And then you were asked to spell the name and you say at line 17
14 onward:
15 "Of course not. It is misspelt. So C-h-e-r-v-o-n-e-n-k-o.
16 Correct. And I met him during one of my missions. So I need his
17 information how to find the spot of the water pipeline damage. And after
18 the mission I had a conversation with him and asked about shooting
19 activity in his area. And he told me an interesting thing. The
20 Russian Battalion was equipped the with night vision binoculars, night
21 vision equipment, and his soldiers and personally he himself during the
22 night duty saw Muslim soldiers going into the neutral zone and further.
23 And during the next day there was active shooting from that direction" -
24 and if we just go to the top of the next page to finish up - "and he told
25 me that such night movements of soldiers equipped with sniper rifle was
Page 42360
1 regular, nearly each night.
2 "Well, that is -- that is why I told you that I think there were
3 reasons by Serbian side to demand that all cease-fire agreements should
4 be signed by all warring parties."
5 And then you were asked a follow-up question at line 18 on the
6 same page, if we could scroll down to that, by the Judge. You were
7 asked:
8 "Sir, would you please clarify your answer as to were there some
9 soldiers coming from where, crossing from what part and what part, and
10 then subsequently the fire was observed."
11 And your answer was:
12 "The officer told me that soldiers went from the old city,
13 crossed the river, and then went in the south direction up to the hill
14 where -- which was the area of Serbian forces -- the position of Serbian
15 forces. Well, and during the day the fire was done in the direction of
16 the old city."
17 Now, Colonel, in relation to what you're describing here that the
18 Russian Battalion officer told you about, what was the belief of the
19 Russians as understood by you of who was actually conducting this firing
20 in the direction of the old city?
21 A. I -- my previous opinion and his words, his opinion when we
22 discussed that in informal situation, were that both are -- both sides
23 are shooting in both directions. And, of course, there were Serbian
24 snipers who wanted to reach military aim; and there were Muslim snipers
25 who shoot the same direction, just to gain probably political or some
Page 42361
1 other things, just to accuse Serbian side about atrocities. But, at the
2 same time, he told me then from Serbian side military people also went to
3 the old city and disappeared there and it was movement -- all night was
4 movement in both directions, and it was for 100 per cent it was very hard
5 to say who shoot where.
6 Q. Thank you. And now if we could turn to page 40 in e-court and
7 that will be transcript page 18153 of the Galic transcript. And if we
8 could focus on line number 23, and you were asked as follows:
9 "Last question: Did you happen to see weapons in the city of, of
10 whatever nature? And if yes, what did you see and where?
11 "A. Well, usually I had close contacts with civilians inside the
12 old" - if we could turn the page at the top - "city, because streets were
13 narrow and it was a safe area to walk. As for the weapons, I already
14 told you that in the first period of my tour of duty I saw that weapons
15 was rather obsolete -- I mean on Muslim side inside the city. Sometimes
16 it were shotguns of Second World War period. But at the time just before
17 I left Sarajevo, I could say that at that period soldiers were dressed in
18 new uniforms and they had new small fire."
19 Now, first of all, could you explain for us in addition to the
20 new uniforms you say they had new small fire. What did you mean by
21 saying "new small fire," what kinds of things?
22 A. I mean guns and automatic guns.
23 Q. And was this discussed within UNPROFOR -- was it discussed where
24 these new uniforms and weapons were coming from?
25 A. Well, of course, in personal conversations with officers, for us
Page 42362
1 it was very strange how blocked city can survive in blockade and more --
2 moreover, fight back, because for shooting and shelling you need weapons
3 and shells and ammunition. So there were rumours - only rumours - that
4 it was some underground tunnel. My colleagues, Ukrainian officers, who
5 often were on duty in the airport told me that they heard that some
6 tunnel is in the airport area. Muslim workers which I worked with told
7 me that there was special tunnel somewhere in the old city in the area
8 Bascarsija; I can mispronounce it, but it sounds like something like
9 that. It was famous area in Sarajevo for criminal activity. And during
10 the war, it was the centre of drugs, illegal weapons, so on and so forth.
11 And civilians told that somewhere -- the tunnel is somewhere there. But,
12 of course, I never seen myself this tunnel and cannot support those
13 rumours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: When asking about rumours, Mr. Ivetic, have you
15 checked with the Prosecution whether there's any dispute about the
16 existence of a tunnel at the airport? Because we now hear that there
17 were rumours about that. Is it the position of the Prosecution that
18 there was or there wasn't or do you have no position on that?
19 MR. FILE: We believe there was indeed a tunnel there.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And you, Mr. Ivetic?
21 MR. IVETIC: The tunnel at the airport there was. We're heard
22 now about a different tunnel and we had three witnesses of the
23 Prosecution that denied the tunnel in the airport --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, no, I want to -- Mr. Ivetic, if would you
25 have focussed your questions on another tunnel, I would not have
Page 42363
1 intervened. My question is: We now hear of rumours of a tunnel of which
2 apparently both parties agree that -- unless you disagree that it existed
3 at a certain point in time.
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I cannot lead -- ask leading
5 questions, so I have to ask open-ended questions and then use the answers
6 from the witness to elicit information about this secretary tunnel that
7 we did not have previously.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I wouldn't mind if would you take off your
9 hand from your mouth when you're speaking. But I think you can -- you
10 could have introduced the matter of another tunnel by putting to the
11 witness what is apparently not in dispute, such as it's not in dispute
12 between the parties that there was a tunnel at the airport. Is that the
13 only tunnel you are aware of on a the basis of his early testimony.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
16 Q. Colonel, if we could follow up. You indicated the old city and
17 then you tried to pronounce it. Is the area that you referring to
18 located near Bascarsija?
19 A. Yeah, probably you pronounce it better than me.
20 Q. And apart from the rumours as the two tunnels, was there any
21 other discussion amongst yourself at UNPROFOR as to any potential source
22 for the new weapons and uniforms that the Muslim side had at the end of
23 your tour?
24 A. Well, there also some people -- for instance, Serbians were
25 absolutely sure, Serbian side was absolutely sure the UN convoys were
Page 42364
1 used for that. And there was -- they supposed that it somehow -- some
2 trucks which were added to UN convoys and were -- and so drove inside the
3 city. Well, I don't know if it is true or not, but there was one rather
4 big scandal when Serbian side shoot at UNHCR convoy and several trucks
5 disappeared. And Serbs told that they took away weapons with their
6 trucks. But what was -- again, it was like rumours or -- I haven't seen
7 any official documents regarding that.
8 Q. And one other topic that you were asked about during the Galic
9 trial was the topic of the Markale shelling in 1994, and that is
10 discussed at several places in the transcript. I'd like to go to page 32
11 in the transcript which is page 18145 of the transcript, and I want to
12 talk about your own observations after going to the scene of the market
13 after the explosion. And on this page it will start with line 6 and go
14 to 16. And here you say:
15 "Well, it will be a little bit long answer. First I have had --
16 I've seen the results of the explosion on TV, so nearly 20 or 30 minutes
17 after the explosion all that was life report on local TV. Well, the next
18 day I had mission not far from the market-place, and I visited that and
19 just saw -- examined the place of the explosion. And for me -- so on TV
20 it was told that it was a mortar shell. After I've seen what I saw, the
21 market-place, for me it was very strange that it was -- the cause of the
22 explosion was identified as mortar shell because it was inside the city
23 and buildings are rather high, and so to my mind trajectory of the
24 shell -- so that the place of the explosion couldn't be at the place it
25 was."
Page 42365
1 Now, in relation to your personal observations, what did you mean
2 by saying it was very strange the place of the explosion couldn't be at
3 the place it was?
4 A. Well, after a rather -- after some time of working inside the old
5 city, you understand, with the help of civilians who live there, what
6 side of the city is safe, what is unsafe, and usually if you -- during my
7 first mission, when I went by foot on unsafe side, people always told me,
8 So come out of there because better work here, not there, and the main
9 reason was mortar shelling. And I should say that the place of -- where
10 traces of this explosion were couldn't be so close to buildings because
11 they were rather high and the trajectory of shell couldn't be so close to
12 the building.
13 Q. And in relation to your trip to the Markale market-place, how did
14 you know the exact place of the explosion? Did someone tell you where to
15 look?
16 A. Well, this market-place is not so big, first of all. Then on TV,
17 everything was shown in details.
18 Q. And then at several times in the Galic transcript you talk about
19 a Russian in the UNMO mission to hold you the mortar shell could not have
20 come from the Serb side. I want to turn to page 45 in e-court,
21 transcript page 18167 of the Galic transcript, and here you are talking
22 about what this Russian told you and from line 1 it reads as follows.
23 The question is:
24 "Sir, could you repeat what you said. Did he tell you that the
25 mortar could not have come from the Serb side or --"
Page 42366
1 And your answer:
2 "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Judging from the possible trajectory is
3 the first reason. The second reason, that the direction of fragments
4 left after the explosion on asphalt showed it couldn't be from the
5 Serbian side. And the second -- the might -- a number of fragments of
6 the explosion was so huge that any -- and a number of victims was very
7 big. It couldn't have be done by mortar shell, by mortar round?
8 "Q. So what you're saying is he told you that it could not have
9 been a mortar shell or that the shell could not have originated from the
10 Serb side? Which of it?
11 "A. Both. Both. It can be -- if it were a shell -- a mortar
12 shell, it couldn't come from Serbian side. But the character of the
13 explosion shows that the explosion was bigger than any mortar -- any
14 mortar.
15 "Q. Did he tell you what it would have been?
16 "A. No. His supposition was that a special explosion device was
17 brought into the market-place."
18 And, sir, my first question: How did you understand and what did
19 you mean when you said that the number of victims was very big, it
20 couldn't be done by a mortar shell.
21 A. Well, statistics show that in results of mortar shelling, usually
22 by one round, only several -- several person can be killed. For me, when
23 I arrived in Sarajevo and saw on asphalt traces of mortar explosions was
24 very strange that they were insignificant. And then I was explained that
25 usually -- both sides used not big mortars which were -- which can be
Page 42367
1 moved by hand. That is why they were -- their might was not so big. And
2 traces were just not very deep inside asphalt or probably asphalt was of
3 a very good quality. But in the market, the trace was much deeper and it
4 was -- the fragments which were traces of fragments which were on asphalt
5 were dispersed evenly in all directions. And usually when trajectory --
6 when mortar shell was coming and after explosion, it was some angle of
7 these fragments.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, part of the testimony we hear now is
9 hearsay from another person who apparently gives expert opinion, although
10 we do not know whether he qualifies as an expert, and we now are asking
11 this witness to interpret the words of that unknown person that may or
12 may not qualify as an expert, we do not know, because we don't know who
13 it is.
14 Now similarly, in addition to that, you are eliciting evidence at
15 this moment from the witness which apparently is something for which we
16 heard a lot of experts, and that's not what really assists the Chamber
17 greatly in finding the truth on these matters.
18 You may proceed and please keep this in mind.
19 MR. IVETIC: I will, Your Honours. But I think that what the --
20 part of the witness has been telling us is based on his own observations
21 from the scene, and I can ask him if that's accurate. But that's how I
22 understood the portion of his answer to be related to his personal
23 observations from viewing the site. But --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that's part of -- I started with the
25 first part, which I said was not assisting. The second part still
Page 42368
1 requires -- of course, he observed a few things, but he also drew a lot
2 of conclusions about that and that means that he makes it opinion
3 evidence, expert evidence, where his qualifications as an expert are not
4 established.
5 So you have responded to part of my observation, and that part
6 also still stands as to the extent it assists this Chamber.
7 Please keep this in mind when you continue.
8 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: While you are still on this page, maybe I could
10 just ask some question for clarification.
11 Sir, you said -- this is page 18167 that the -- "so his
12 supposition was that a special explosion device was brought into the
13 market-place. What kind of special explosion device could this be that
14 could be brought into the market?
15 THE WITNESS: I can say, because I am sure -- you see, I visited
16 the market-place several times after --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... sure. Okay. You don't
18 know. Sorry. You don't know what kind.
19 Now if it is brought on to the market-place, would it be able to
20 make such a deep crater as you said it was?
21 THE WITNESS: Deeper traces --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not traces. Crater.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Crater, okay. Was deeper because
24 probably the explosion was bigger.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. But you've got to know the explosion -- you
Page 42369
1 don't know the explosion, he didn't know the explosion because you
2 both [Overlapping speakers] ... that's a -- that's guess-work now, isn't
3 it?
4 THE WITNESS: Well, when you see a big cave, you understand that
5 explosion was bigger than [Overlapping speakers] ...
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... that's very true. But
7 if you did see a big cave like -- it more explains that this thing came
8 at force rather than being put there and making a hole.
9 THE WITNESS: No, no, no. Because I can compare what I have seen
10 in other places.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Thank you. You don't agree.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you said when you see a big cave. Can you
13 describe how big that cave was. How deep it was, what its dimensions
14 were.
15 THE WITNESS: Usually after traces on asphalt after --
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm asking you --
17 THE WITNESS: -- normal and widely seen --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, no, no, I'm stopping you here. You said,
19 When you see a big cave. Did you see a big cave on the Markale market.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you describe the dimensions of that cave; that
22 is, length, width and depth.
23 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was -- diameter was around 30 centimetres
24 and the depth was 5, 7 centimetres. As far as I remember.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
Page 42370
1 THE WITNESS: But you -- as -- as -- as to compare to hundreds of
2 traces which were around the city, there were usually 2, 3 centimetres
3 depth and the round was 10, 15 centimetres and then all the rest, traces.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So you drew your conclusions on the basis that the
5 diameter was 30 centimetres rather than 10 to 15, and then the depth was
6 5 to 7 centimetres compared to 2 or 3 centimetres you observed elsewhere.
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any special training in interpreting --
9 THE WITNESS: No. No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. IVETIC:
13 Q. Sir, this Russian officer you spoke with -- and at transcript
14 page 18155 of the Galic case, you say it's Mr. Rumyantsev.
15 Where were you both when you talked about this Markale shelling?
16 A. We were in informal -- somewhere at night, informal situation in
17 PTT building.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I see we're about -- looks like a
19 minute or half a minute past -- before the break. I have approximately
20 three more questions so I don't know if we should continue or if we
21 should end for the day.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We had already an extended session because we
23 started a bit earlier. I think for tomorrow we don't need the whole of
24 tomorrow's time anyhow and the next witness would be available only on
25 Thursday.
Page 42371
1 MR. IVETIC: I think the next witness is available tomorrow and
2 Thursday via videolink. That was my understanding. But we could check
3 that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- then I may be -- for both days he would
5 be available on --
6 One second, please.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber, if those who are assisting us have no
9 problems with it, then the Chamber would prefer that you, with three
10 questions, conclude your examination-in-chief. And, of course, it also
11 depends on whether Mr. Mladic, because we'll easily move to tomorrow if
12 that is preferred.
13 MR. IVETIC: I think I saw my client nodding and so I would --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I saw a similar thing, Mr. Ivetic.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. IVETIC:
17 Q. Now, in the Galic -- pardon me. At the time that you discussed
18 this with Mr. Rumyantsev, did you have any access to any official reports
19 of the incident?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And in the Galic transcript, you were -- and the Karadzic case,
22 you were asked about a Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolay Vasilievich Rumyantsev,
23 and that was at transcript page 18170 through -72 of the Galic transcript
24 and at 29539 and 29541 of the Karadzic transcript. And in the Galic
25 case, you talked about an Aleksei Rumyantsev. Do you know if the Russian
Page 42372
1 officer whom you spoke with and whom you remembered to be Aleksei
2 Rumyantsev is the same or different than Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolay
3 Vasilievich Rumyantsev that you were asked about in these prior cases?
4 A. Probably I named him -- his first name in wrong way because I
5 knew -- I studied at the military institute with another guy Rumyantsev,
6 and that is why I remember clearly the name of this UNMO officer, because
7 he also studied at the same military institute but a little bit later
8 than me. And probably I just mixed up their names and that is why I
9 named him Aleksei Rumyantsev. But I never knew his second -- father
10 name, Vasilievich, that is why ... but I am sure that I am speaking at
11 the officer, UNMO Russian officer, then he was major not
12 lieutenant-colonel. In Sarajevo, he was a major, well, and his name was
13 Rumyantsev.
14 Q. And now has -- the Prosecution has examined you in both the Galic
15 and the Karadzic cases. Has anything caused you to change or doubt your
16 memory of what the Russian officer named Rumyantsev whom you spoke with
17 about the Markale market explosion?
18 A. I'm absolutely sure that everything I told during those two cases
19 is the truth. And after my first visit of the market-place and we
20 exchanged views on what was happened -- what had happened in the market
21 with Rumyantsev, I visited on -- with missions the market area several
22 times, and several times I came to the place, and after our discussion
23 and when he pin-point some things, peculiar things which I should pay
24 attention to, I paid, and that is why I am absolutely sure what I'm
25 talking about.
Page 42373
1 Q. Sir, thank you again for your patience and for answering my
2 questions.
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I'm completed with direct, and then I
4 await Your Honours' preferences as to with -- with which witness we start
5 with tomorrow.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
10 But perhaps -- no, I -- I have to ask you to still wait for us
11 because thinking about scheduling.
12 Mr. Tieger.
13 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, if there's a question about moving what had
14 been fixed as the commencement of the videolink for tomorrow, it also
15 implicates the scheduling for the Prosecution - specifically in this case
16 me and my availability on Thursday - so I had anticipated, as discussed,
17 that we would be beginning on -- tomorrow morning.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There was some confusion about -- amongst
19 ourselves about the availability of the videolink.
20 I do understand that the next witness would be ready tomorrow to
21 start at 9.30 his videolink evidence. The Chamber would like to start
22 tomorrow mourning with that videolink evidence.
23 Mr. Ivetic, could you remind me about the times needed so that we
24 can give a better instruction to the present witness.
25 MR. IVETIC: If I remember correctly, the time estimates are one
Page 42374
1 and a half on the Defence and two and a half on the Prosecution.
2 MR. TIEGER: That's my recollection as well.
3 JUDGE ORIE: One and a half and two and a half makes up four
4 hours. Perhaps some additional questions.
5 Could the Prosecution tell us how much time -- I think it was one
6 hour and a half for the cross-examination of this witness.
7 MR. FILE: Yes, Your Honour, and that remains the same.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which would mean anyhow that we would have a
9 session on Thursday because we'll not finish the videolink evidence
10 tomorrow and the present witness.
11 Now since we need a session on Thursday anyhow, I think it would
12 be best to start cross-examination on Thursday morning and ask this
13 witness to be available on Thursday morning.
14 If that is agreeable to all parties, Witness, tomorrow we will
15 not start with your cross-examination. That will be only on Thursday.
16 Therefore, we'd like to see you back Thursday, 9.30 in the morning most
17 likely, it can be that you have to wait for a second, but 9.30 in the
18 morning for cross-examination.
19 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, just so we're clear. Assuming that we don't
20 complete the videolink tomorrow, although I know the parties will be
21 attempting to do so, I presume we would continue with the videolink on
22 Thursday morning until completed?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we hope that we will be able to complete
Page 42375
1 it tomorrow.
2 Witness, we'd like to see you back on Thursday morning, 9.30 in
3 the morning, and we hope to start right away; but if not, I beg for some
4 patience. I further instruct you that you should not speak or
5 communicate in whatever way, with whomever, about your testimony, whether
6 that is testimony already given or testimony still to be given on
7 Thursday.
8 If that's clear, you may follow the usher.
9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, absolutely clear.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we adjourn for the day, and we'll resume
12 tomorrow, the 9th of December, 9.30 in the morning, this same courtroom,
13 I.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.24 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day of
16 December, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.
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