Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 42479

 1                           Thursday, 10 December 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before we continue with the cross-examination of Witness Moroz,

12     both parties have announced that there were some preliminary matters to

13     be raised.

14             Mr. Stojanovic.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

16             Just a few pieces of information.  I have been asked to convey

17     that General Mladic would ask to leave the courtroom after the first

18     break and to return to the Detention Unit for personal reasons.  We were

19     not in a position to submit this in writing because there are technical

20     problems in the Defence room.  We cannot write that up because the entire

21     system is down.  The entire computer system is down.  However, the

22     general is prepared to confirm for the record verbally today that he

23     waives his right to attend the session after the first break.

24             Also, I wish to inform you, Your Honours, in view of you said

25     yesterday the expert Dusan Pavlovic will testify in this courtroom next

Page 42480

 1     Monday.  I believe that is the 14th of December.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that information.  I think we gave our

 3     decision on the expertise of Mr. Pavlovic yesterday.  That's then clear.

 4     And that's Pavlovic, then -- that's in the context of scheduling for next

 5     week.  That's well understood.

 6             Perhaps we could deal right away with the absence of Mr. Mladic.

 7             Mr. Mladic, you have a right to be present.  I do understand from

 8     Mr. Stojanovic that you waive that right for the next session.  If you

 9     would please confirm that, then please switch on your microphone and

10     confirm that you -- that it's your wish not to -- not to attend in the

11     next session.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have a family visit.  So I

13     would like to ask that, after this first session, I go back to the

14     Detention Unit and let the lawyers continue their work, according to

15     plan.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that extends for the rest of the day, I

17     take it?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The entire day.  Thank you very

19     much.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's your right to be present, Mr. Mladic.

21     There's no obligation.  Therefore, even without the approval, but the

22     Chamber has to make clear that you waive the exercise of this right.

23     That's then clear.  Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Pavlovic is the first one to

Page 42481

 1     appear on Monday?

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.  He

 3     is the first witness on Monday.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And after Mr. Pavlovic, you have other witnesses for

 5     next week?  As previously scheduled.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have another witness,

 7     Your Honour, the one that we discussed yesterday.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's fine.  That doesn't need any further

 9     explanation.

10             Then we'll start with the examination of Mr. Pavlovic not yet.

11             Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Mr. President, I didn't realise what you were

13     indicating but if it is my opportunity to address the matters we wanted

14     to raise in advance of the next witness, I'd like to do so.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We can do that in open session.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Yes thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. TIEGER:  So I wanted to address several matters.  The first

19     we wish to report back on a matter that the Court asked the parties to

20     try to resolve and that was the question of armed conflict.  The

21     Prosecution and Defence have indeed, been discussing that issue with a

22     view toward reaching agreement and we hope to report back shortly that we

23     have indeed resolved this issue along with some related issues that have

24     arisen during the discussion.  That's not quite as concrete a report as

25     we had hoped to make but I wanted to indicate that indeed steps were

Page 42482

 1     being taken in the right direction.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have an expectation that such agreement would

 3     be reached before Christmas or should we think in terms of 2016 if not

 4     2017, Mr. Tieger?  The Chamber has become wiser on the basis of its

 5     experience.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I would imagine that my raising the expectation that

 7     we could resolve it before the recess would be probably the best way of

 8     ensuring that couldn't happen, but we will try to do.  So we stay in

 9     contact and the issues don't seem to be so intractable that that's beyond

10     the realm of realistic possibility.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that Mr. Stojanovic is smiling so he must have

12     the same expectations and we leave it open which Christmas it will be.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             At the same time, we've also maintained contact about the number

16     of remaining witnesses and wanted to share that information with the

17     Trial Chamber.  In essence, there are three categories of witnesses left:

18     The Tomasica experts; the 92 bis applications opposed by the Prosecution;

19     and international witnesses.  And all of these categories, as I'll

20     indicate in a moment, are very limited.

21             So, first, there are two Tomasica experts as the court is aware.

22     Mr. Radovanovic, Mr. Stankovic.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think Mrs. Radovanovic.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, of course.  I'm sorry.

25             There are two remaining 92 bis applications which are opposed,

Page 42483

 1     Matijevic and Miljanovic.  And in the third category --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I have on my mind Simic and Miljanovic.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Matijevic was opposed, yes.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  And there are approximately six remaining witnesses

 6     in the third category of international witnesses.  Because of the

 7     possibility that their appearances may implicate potential protective

 8     measures which we're not aware at the moment, I won't name them.

 9             We're advised that all of these witnesses involve some level of

10     difficulty in obtaining their appearance, and accordingly, the Defence

11     has indicated its intention to file subpoenas and for that reason the

12     Prosecution anticipates that the Trial Chamber will wish to monitor

13     progress on that front in much the same manner it has with respect to

14     remaining experts.

15             In any event, this difficulty, coupled with the likely completion

16     dates for the expert reports, means that there is a high likelihood that

17     the few remaining Defence witness will not be available to testify

18     immediately after the recess, and, indeed, not in January.

19             And this scheduling issue further implicates the Trial Chamber's

20     earlier comments about final trial briefs and its expectation that the

21     parties would be or had commenced work on those briefs and the Trial

22     Chamber's reference to the possibility that, upon conclusion of the case,

23     the parties might have a matter of weeks within which to submit the

24     brief.  Now, I imagine that you're already aware that we sought guidance

25     informally on that timing and understand now that -- by that I mean that

Page 42484

 1     understanding is the understanding of both the Prosecution and the

 2     Defence.  We share the information that was made available.  That -- that

 3     was essentially a reference to the possibility that the formal end formal

 4     conclusion of the case might be protracted with considerable non-court

 5     time, during which considerable progress could be made on the brief.  So

 6     by way of extreme example, if six months elapsed waiting for one final

 7     witness whose evidence involved one hour of court time, the time that the

 8     Trial Chamber would allot for the brief to be submitted, after

 9     consultation with the parties, would clearly be dramatically less than if

10     the formal end of the case occurred today.  And that's our understanding.

11             But in light of that, and particularly in view of the likely

12     January schedule, the parties appreciate that they need to be gauged in

13     the final brief process.  However, genuine progress on that front is

14     dependent upon an understanding of how much room there is for discussion

15     of any of the many issues involved.  In other words, an understanding of

16     the final trial brief word limit.  Now, the parties have discussed that

17     and agree that, in view of the scope and scale of the case, a word limit

18     comparable to that allotted in the Karadzic case, 300.000 words is

19     appropriate.  And I had the opportunity to explain to Mr. Nilsson

20     informally the multiple advantages to the parties and to the chamber that

21     in our view that word limit provided.  Accordingly, we hope that the

22     Court is in a position to confirm that word limit if it sees fit, prior

23     to the recess.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just try to understand.  300.000 words is

25     approximately 700 pages, isn't it, if we have 400 words on a page, 40

Page 42485

 1     lines, then words.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, it depends on the number of --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's more or less what we are thinking, in

 4     terms of anything between 500 and 800.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  In any event, Mr. President, I have captured with

 8     full accuracy the information that has arisen and exchanged during the

 9     course of our discussions with the Defence and appreciate the Chamber's

10     time this morning.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.

12             Is there any response or any observation the Defence would like

13     to make at this very moment on matters raised by Mr. Tieger?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just to confirm

15     that intensive talks are underway on that topic with the Prosecution and,

16     once again, I wish to inform you that we are seeking a solution and

17     working as efficiently as possible on concluding the Defence case.  We

18     are in constant contact with our experts who are supposed to appear in

19     court.  So all new material that we receive will be forwarded to the

20     Prosecution and to the Trial Chamber in good time.

21             Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

23             I think the Chamber can add to this that decisions on 92 bis --

24     on pending 92 bis motions are -- can be expected, perhaps not all of them

25     but at least some of them soon.

Page 42486

 1             Anything else in this respect?  Looking at today's programme, I

 2     think the cross-examination of Mr. Moroz was scheduled for one hour and a

 3     half, and -- well, before the start, of course, there's no reason yet to

 4     say that you can stick to that, which means that most likely we'll finish

 5     somewhere in the second session today and have no further witnesses for

 6     this week and then we'll continue Monday morning with Mr. Pavlovic.

 7             Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Only to mention, as the Trial Chamber is aware, that

 9     cross-examination will be conducted by Mr. File, and I will cede the

10     floor to him.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then could the witness be escorted into the

12     courtroom.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Moroz.

16             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Moroz, I'd like to remind you that you're still

18     bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

19     testimony, that is, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and

20     nothing but the truth.

21             You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. File.  You find Mr. File to

22     your right.  Mr. File is counsel for the Prosecution.

23             Mr. File, please proceed.

24             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Good morning to everyone.

25                           WITNESS:  SERGII MOROZ [Resumed]

Page 42487

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. File:

 2        Q.   Mr. Moroz, in your testimony on Tuesday at transcript page 42349,

 3     lines 19 to 23, you said:  "But there were several weeks when even on

 4     first floors water was absent and trucks with water tanks were organised

 5     to -- well, to bring water for the population and the main source of the

 6     water during that period was a big reservoir on the brewery, city brewery

 7     because it was the lowest point in the city."

 8             Do you recall saying that?

 9        A.   Yeah.

10             MR. FILE:  Could we look at 65 ter 33555, e-court page 8, please.

11        Q.   I'm going to show you your prior testimony in the Karadzic case

12     which corresponds to transcript page 29544 to -45 in that case.  Starting

13     at line 14, you said:  "Ah, so I meant people went down stairs to ground

14     floor because there -- so the pressure of the water couldn't afford to go

15     up to higher floors and took in tanks and in some -- anything where water

16     can be put, they took water and went upstairs to their apartments.

17             "Q.  The difficulties that you were referring to, though, weren't

18     just the inconvenience of going -- having to go downstairs and get some

19     water, lug it back up the stairs --

20             "A.  Mm-hm.

21             "Q.  -- was it?

22             "A.  Yeah.

23             "Q.  That was the only difficulty that you saw for the civilian

24     population? "

25             And on the next page of the transcript:

Page 42488

 1             "A.  It was only one period, two or three days as far as I

 2     remember, that it was great shortage of water and trucks with water tanks

 3     were going around the old city and people took water out from these

 4     tanks."

 5             So my question is:  When you said in the Karadzic case that this

 6     period lasted two or three days, should we understand that you were

 7     revising that testimony on Tuesday when you said that it lasted several

 8     weeks?

 9        A.   You see, well, I see that there is a contradiction in my words.

10     As far as I remember, it was up to two weeks, the situation.  Why -- let

11     me continue one sentence more.

12             I went to brewery and I know all the story, because I was asked

13     by Ukrainian chief commander, battalion commander, to go to brewery and

14     to agree with bosses there to bring water by tanks to Ukrainian

15     battalion, and in Ukrainian battalion, the situation -- it is also very

16     low, Tito barracks, the old city and very low, the lowest point of the

17     town, and they brought by tanks -- by vehicles with special tanks, water

18     tanks --

19        Q.   Okay --

20        A.   -- to battalion and it last three or four days.  But for the rest

21     of the people, it was up to two weeks.

22        Q.   Okay.  As we saw in the Karadzic case you also said that this

23     was, "only one period."

24             Did you mean to say that it was the only period during -- or

25     between October 1993 and October 1994 when people did not have running

Page 42489

 1     water in their apartments in Sarajevo?

 2        A.   Well, I can't say that it was the only period.  Probably -- but

 3     it was the only big enough, long enough period --

 4        Q.   Okay --

 5        A.   -- which people, all people kept spare water in their apartments

 6     just for the sake and they -- they can live more or less normally so they

 7     have enough stock of water for one to two days.

 8        Q.   Can you remember when this period was during your time in

 9     Sarajevo, for example, which month it was?

10        A.   It was in winter, definitely.  No, I can't say for sure, but it

11     seems to me it was in February, January or February.

12        Q.   Okay.

13        A.   Something like that.

14        Q.   There were severe water shortages in Sarajevo from the moment you

15     arrived in October 1993; correct?

16        A.   Yeah.

17        Q.   Can we look at 65 ter 30669, please.

18             When this comes up you'll see this is a weekly BH political

19     assessment that's dated 26 October 1993 --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. File, the 65 ter number is given six digits.

21     Can you say it again.

22             MR. FILE:  30669.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

24             MR. FILE:

25        Q.   If we could look at page 3 towards the bottom, you see a

Page 42490

 1     paragraph that begins with:  "WHO experts."

 2             It says:  "WHO experts suggest that the biggest humanitarian

 3     problem facing Sarajevo at the moment may be water.  Recent shelling has

 4     cut the electricity to the Bacevo pumping station and has further

 5     disrupted the water distribution system.  In addition, the Serbs have now

 6     cut off water coming from Moscanica, the small backup system the city

 7     used to use when Bacevo was not functioning.  The amount of available

 8     water in Sarajevo has consequently shrunk considerably.  The incidents of

 9     Hepatitis A in the city is increasing.  An epidemic is possible."

10             Now does that accord with your recollection of the state of the

11     water supply when you arrived in Sarajevo?

12        A.   So it's very -- it looks very much, describing the same period

13     which I talked to you.

14             MR. FILE:  I would tender that document, please, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 30669 receives exhibit number

17     P7774, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

19             MR. FILE:

20        Q.   Do you remember an incident that occurred towards the end of your

21     tenure in Sarajevo starting between the 14th and 15th of September 1994

22     when there was a storm that knocked out one of the main power lines

23     serving central Sarajevo?

24        A.   Frankly speaking, I don't remember that story.

25             MR. FILE:  Can we look at 65 ter number 33551, please.

Page 42491

 1        Q.   When this comes up, you will see that this is an excerpt from an

 2     Agence France-Presse newspaper article from 15 September, 1994.

 3             In the middle of the page it says:  "Sarajevo was deprived of

 4     water and electricity, Thursday, 15 September, after storms and

 5     separatist Serbs cut off supplies to the city.  The cuts marked the first

 6     time the Bosnian capital had been deprived of power and water for 24

 7     hours since a February cease-fire was agreed for the capital.

 8             "The UN Protection Force said one of the two main power lines

 9     into the city had been brought down by storms, while the Bosnian Serbs at

10     Vogosca, north of Sarajevo, were diverting power from the second line to

11     their self-styled capital, Pale.

12             "The lack of power put out of action the Bacevo water-pumping

13     station, which supplies Sarajevo with 80 per cent of its water."

14             Were you aware that the Bosnian Serb side had the capability of

15     diverting electricity supplies from Sarajevo to Pale?

16        A.   Well, I'm not sure for 100 per cent but I suppose they have such

17     possibilities because of this plant I have seen there were different

18     lines in different directions and, of course, they can switch electricity

19     on and off any of those lines.

20        Q.   If there was an electricity cut to Sarajevo, then the water-pumps

21     would stop functioning; right?

22        A.   Not -- the problem is that water field from where water was

23     pumping on the tank, the biggest tank on the mountain of Mojmilo where --

24     on Serbian side, and that is why cutting off Sarajevo itself from

25     electricity doesn't -- yeah, was not connected with operations on -- on

Page 42492

 1     these -- on those water fields.

 2        Q.   Okay.  I understand your point about the reservoir.  I'm just

 3     asking you about the water-pumps themselves.  For example, at the Bacevo

 4     pumping station, if the electricity is cut to those pumps they will not

 5     function; right?

 6        A.   Yeah, yeah.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And this gets to your point which is if the water-pumps

 8     stopped functioning then the only major source of potable water that

 9     would remain in the city --

10        A.   Yes --

11        Q.   -- is whatever was left at that moment in the Mojmilo reservoir

12     or any underground pipes?

13        A.   Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question.

15             Do you have knowledge about all these pumping systems et cetera,

16     for example, are you aware of any urgency facilities to have electricity

17     produced locally?  Do you know something about it or is it just that you

18     assume, as it is usually everywhere, that water is pumped up in a

19     reservoir that from the pressure from the reservoir, it comes down.

20             Do you have any specific knowledge about the systems and

21     especially the solutions in case of electricity cut.

22             THE WITNESS:  Well, I'm not a specialist in water supply.  I'm a

23     military and I had several missions of renovations damaged some parties

24     of the water supply system of Sarajevo, there was a big problem with

25     engines which were pumping water from the area I told you in Ilidza, I

Page 42493

 1     don't remember the specific -- Ilidza is a big area close to Sarajevo,

 2     and there were probably a dozen of engines which should pump water to the

 3     highest point above Sarajevo to tank and then from this tank, water was

 4     going down to Sarajevo and was used by population, industry, so on and so

 5     forth.  I renovated -- organised renovation of probably ten of engines on

 6     this field, and after renovation, I also was on the highest point on

 7     the -- Mojmilo, and I have seen maps with -- how tubes all these pipes

 8     are going down to the -- Sarajevo.  And I -- I -- I saw myself how water

 9     is pumping or not pumping, how closed wells and open wells and what --

10     the results were.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any specific knowledge about generators

12     for electricity --

13             THE WITNESS:  No.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't know --

15             THE WITNESS:  I don't know.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You've not seen them, but you also do not know what

17     they --

18             THE WITNESS:  I've seen, because I also renovated -- organised,

19     organised renovation by specialists, some pylons, some parts of power

20     plant because UNPROFOR supplied in significant amounts special oil for --

21     for pump -- for electricity industry where this -- for this power plant,

22     for instance, and I delivered, in tanks, this oil to Serbian workers, and

23     I must control that this oil is filled in special system to start the

24     operation of the plant --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- yes, I see that for general electricity plants.

Page 42494

 1     Were there any provisions for emergency electricity generators for the

 2     water system or don't you know.

 3             THE WITNESS:  -- I don't know.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             THE WITNESS:  I don't know.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a follow-up.

 7             Sir, when you say you organised the renovations and you organised

 8     the repairs, what you actually mean?  And the question I really want to

 9     find out is:  Were you actually part of the team of technicians who did

10     the job?  Or were you just somebody who tried to find technicians from

11     wherever you could find them and they did the job, and while they did the

12     job, you saw the pipes as you say you saw them and you saw how things

13     looked like.  Which of the two?

14             THE WITNESS:  So my job was, after receiving order to go

15     somewhere and renovate something, either electricity line or water supply

16     system, whatsoever, I contacted specialists on -- one -- one of the

17     warring sides, sometimes both of them, and informed them that we are

18     ready to organise that mission for renovation of this or that facility

19     object.

20             After receiving their reply, positive reply, that they're

21     interested in that, I informed that our liaison officers who should agree

22     that mission with warring sides military -- with military

23     representatives.  And then with a convoy, military -- small military

24     unit, I should gather all workers, engineers involved in the mission to

25     deliver them to the point of our job to -- to ensure their security, and

Page 42495

 1     after our -- after end of the job, to get them back to -- to the sites

 2     where I took them from.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  So you were not part of the technicians.

 4     Thank you so much.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. File.

 6             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Getting back to this question of the water-pumps, when they would

 8     stop functioning, were you aware that that would lead to a drop in water

 9     pressure and water could not be supplied to apartments and houses?

10        A.   Sure.

11        Q.   And do you agree that the Bacevo pumping station supplied

12     Sarajevo with about 80 per cent of its drinking water?

13        A.   I can't say what the percentage of that was.

14        Q.   Okay?

15        A.   But it surely was the greater part, for sure.

16             MR. FILE:  Your Honour I would tender this document, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33551 receives exhibit number

19     P7775, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

21             MR. FILE:

22        Q.   And just to be clear, this Bacevo pumping station was in Bosnian

23     Serb-held territory in Ilidza; right?

24        A.   Yeah.

25        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember that at the same time that the electricity

Page 42496

 1     and water supplies were cut off in mid-September 1994, Bosnian Serb

 2     authorities also turned off the natural gas supply by closing the gas

 3     valves they controlled in Ilidza.

 4        A.   For me it is a surprise, because I was absolutely sure that no

 5     gas supply took place during my whole tour of duty because when speaking

 6     to civilians inside Sarajevo, they never told me that gas appeared.

 7     Because I -- I thought it was cut in the beginning of hostilities and --

 8        Q.   Okay --

 9        A.   And -- they never had gas supply.

10        Q.   So your recollection is that there was no gas supply to Sarajevo

11     during the entire time you were there --

12        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... that it was.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             MR. FILE:  Could we look at 65 ter 18780, please.

15        Q.   When this comes up, you'll see that it's a weekly report of the

16     office of the special co-ordinator for Sarajevo for the week of 12 to 18

17     September, 1994.  It's dated 19 September 1994, sent to Kofi Annan and

18     Yasushi Akashi.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Can we get the English.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, we're back began on the B/C/S.  Could we have

21     English to the right of our screens.  Yes, there it is.

22             MR. FILE:

23        Q.   You'll see from the beginning of this document, it says:  "The

24     week under review was dominated by the most lengthy and comprehensive

25     shut down of utilities which Sarajevo has experienced since the dark days

Page 42497

 1     of last winter.  A combination of storm and war damage completely cut the

 2     electricity supply on 14 September.  With no electricity to operate the

 3     pumps, this inevitably led to the water supply into the city coming to a

 4     halt.  On 15 September, the" -- and for the B/C/S we go to the next page.

 5             "... the gas supply was cut.  Information obtained by technical

 6     experts of this Office, UNPROFOR engineering units and other sources

 7     suggest that the gas supply was almost certainly interrupted by Bosnian

 8     Serbs closing valves in the part of the city which they control."

 9             Were you part of the UNPROFOR engineering units described here

10     that determined the gas supply was almost certainly interrupted by the

11     Bosnian Serb side closing valves that it controlled?

12        A.   Well, I do not remember that any of the officers of the unit I

13     was part of was involved in gas problem of that period.  I told you that

14     in the beginning of my tour in Autumn 1993, only twice I visited gas

15     stations, one visit on Bosnian side, and one visit on Serbian side, and

16     no gas problems appeared in the conversations and tasks of our unit.

17     Probably it was some other unit of UNPROFOR or ...

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is kindly requested to move to the

19     microphone so that he speaks into the microphone.  Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS:  Oh, sorry.  Sorry.

21             MR. FILE:

22        Q.   So the visit that you were discussing on Tuesday when you met

23     with the director of the Bosnian Muslim gas company and the Bosnian Serb

24     gas company, that took place in Autumn 1993?

25        A.   Yeah.

Page 42498

 1        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at the next paragraph of this document.  It

 2     says:  "In spite of extensive efforts being made I UNPROFOR at all

 3     appropriate levels, the week ended with gas still turned off and without

 4     the necessary clearances having been obtained to enable work to begin on

 5     repairing the electricity lines.  A meeting at the technical level, at

 6     which this Office was represented, took place at the airport on 18

 7     September.  This meeting revealed that there was comparatively little

 8     disagreement between the parties on the technical problems involved, but

 9     the necessary repair work to restore the electricity and gas supplies

10     still awaited clearance at the political level."

11             So when this document says, "the necessary work still awaited

12     clearance at the political level," do you understand that specifically to

13     mean that the technical people could fix the power lines but the Bosnian

14     Serb leadership was not letting them have access to the places where

15     repairs had to be made?

16             MR. IVETIC:  Objection.  Misstates the document and the evidence.

17     Nowhere does it say Bosnian Serb leadership.  We don't know which

18     political level is being discussed.

19             MR. FILE:  That's why I'm asking the question, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's --

21             THE WITNESS:  Unfortunately, I can't say anything on that

22     question because I was not involved in the meeting which you have

23     referred to, and -- so level of my competence was lower than the question

24     you are asking me.

25             MR. FILE:

Page 42499

 1        Q.   Okay.  And next time if there is an objection, if you could just

 2     wait for there to be a ruling?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's one.  Second, of course, Mr. Ivetic,

 4     Mr. File referred to the document saying political level and then ask a

 5     question about that level, which was leading by the way.  He did not

 6     misstate the evidence and there was no reason to intervene.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would tender that document please.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do so, the political level could also

10     include the Muslim side, couldn't it?  The two sides might have had to

11     agree?

12             MR. FILE:  That may be the case and that's why I was seeking the

13     witness's view on this document.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 18780 receives exhibit number

18     P7776, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. FILE:  If we could look at 65 ter number 33552, please.

22        Q.   When this comes up, you'll see it's a "New York Times" article

23     published 25 September 1994.

24             Starting with the first paragraph, it says:  "Sarajevo was sealed

25     tight today.  Threats to aircraft from the Bosnian Serbs closed the

Page 42500

 1     airport.  All roads out were barred.  Deprived of water, as well as

 2     electricity and gas for ten days, people holding plastic containers

 3     formed long lines at the Miljacka river.

 4             "It was the 904th day of the siege of Sarajevo.  The sun shone,

 5     gun-fire was intermittent, people pushed wheelbarrows full of water

 6     containers slowly up the hills."

 7             Now, people had to go down to the Miljacka river to retrieve

 8     fresh water because it was one of the points where the water-pipes were

 9     at the lowest elevation in the city; right?

10        A.   You asked me if this article is correct?

11        Q.   I'm asking about the water-pipes near the Miljacka river, if

12     those were at the lowest elevation in the city.

13        A.   Probably, yes.  I'm not sure, but -- this area, indeed, is very

14     low concerning other parts of the city.

15        Q.   And you saw people in -- waiting in long lines for fresh water;

16     correct?

17        A.   No.  First of all, my person opinion that magazine articles --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, we are not seeking your opinion.

19             THE WITNESS:  Oh.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please answer the question.  You said you

21     did not see people waiting in long lines for fresh water.  You said that

22     was not -- you -- would you like to add anything to that answer?

23             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from opinion.  If you want to say what you did

25     see perhaps, then -- or wait for the next question by Mr. File.

Page 42501

 1             THE WITNESS:  Okay I will add what I saw.  September, I'm

 2     surprised that a lot of things now appear that September was a period of

 3     hostilities.  September, August, September and October was the period

 4     when people felt everybody knew that peace is coming.  No shooting inside

 5     Sarajevo at all.  It was the period when UNPROFOR people got permission

 6     to walk around the city freely.  And personally me, with several

 7     officers, start jogging along the Sniper Strasse, the most dangerous area

 8     during hostilities.  And now I see that some hostilities, some water

 9     shortage in September, I don't remember any water shortages.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, you said no shooting inside

11     Sarajevo at all.  No shells fell on the city, no incidents of shooting,

12     for example, sniper incidents occurred.

13             THE WITNESS:  Sorry, sorry.  Inside Sarajevo, no.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS:  We got permission not to wear flak jackets and to

16     walk freely around the city.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

18                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

19             MR. FILE:

20        Q.   In that case, I'd like to clarify something that you said in your

21     Karadzic testimony.

22             MR. FILE:  If we could look back at 65 ter 33555 at page 9,

23     please.

24        Q.   Starting at line 4, you were asked:

25             "Q.  It's the case, though, isn't it, that civilians lived in

Page 42502

 1     constant fear when they had to venture outside their homes to get food

 2     and water?

 3             "A.  Of course civilians suffered from the situation when each

 4     day there was a risk that water can be cut -- could be cut.

 5             "Q.  But the water was cut on a number of occasions and the

 6     civilians had to risk their lives lining up to get water, did they not?

 7             "A.  So of course it took times and efforts to take water.

 8             "Q.  And sometimes they were queueing up for days in order to get

 9     water?

10             "A.  I can't say for this, no, no.  Probably one day, yes; two

11     days, I hardly say -- even the two days they couldn't get water.  And --

12     because the next day these tanks with water started driving around the

13     old city and people queuing -- of course queue -- they waited in queues

14     just to get possibility to fill their tanks with water."

15             Now in your previous answer it is suggested that you didn't see

16     people standing in lines for water.  In your Karadzic testimony, it

17     sounded like you did see.  Can you provide an explanation as to what you

18     saw in terms of people standing in line for water.

19        A.   We -- in both cases, we discuss different periods of my staying

20     in Sarajevo.  I just told you that in September 1994, I saw no queues and

21     no use for queueing for water, because no hostilities were.  And more or

22     less all systems started functioning more or less normally.

23        Q.   Okay.

24        A.   But what you just read, we speak about winter of -- winter,

25     January/February of 1994.  It was earlier than September 1994.

Page 42503

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2             MR. FILE:  Could we look at 65 ter 33554, please.

 3        Q.   And you'll see, when this comes up, it's a "New York Times"

 4     article from the 26th of September, 1994.

 5             It says:  "The Bosnian Serbs reopened the gas supply to Sarajevo

 6     today after a 11-day cut-off but they ensured that the airport remained

 7     closed by threatening to shoot at incoming United Nations flights.

 8             "The airport, which runs between Bosnian Serb and Bosnian

 9     government positions, is essential to the arrival of food aid to the city

10     and to the United Nations peacekeeping operation.  A spokesman for the UN

11     High Commissioner for Refugees, said current food supplies were

12     sufficient for another two weeks.

13             "The agreement to reopen a critical gas valve closed by the Serbs

14     in the suburb of Ilidza west of the city was reached at a meeting of

15     senior Bosnian Serb and Bosnian government officials.  An outline accord

16     was also reached on repairing sabotaged electricity pylons, but no

17     electricity was expected to reach Sarajevo for at least two more days.

18             "Because electricity is needed to pump water into homes, the

19     300.000 people of Sarajevo remained without running water for the 11th

20     consecutive day.

21             "The main traffic in the city now consists of people pushing

22     wheelbarrows, shopping carts, baby carriages and other makeshift

23     contraptions loaded with water taken from pipes near the Miljacka river."

24             Do you recall during your time in Sarajevo observing people

25     pushing these wheeled devices loaded with water taken from pipes around

Page 42504

 1     the city?

 2        A.   Yes, I do remember.  It was the winter of 1994.

 3        Q.   So this description here, would you say that this is an accurate

 4     description of what you saw in the winter-time but not in February?

 5        A.   Yeah.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   But no summer of 1994.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  When you say -- may I ask you this:  Winter of

10     1994, do you mean winter 1993 to 1994.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Or winter 1994 to 1995?

13             THE WITNESS:  The most difficult -- it seems to me, as far as I

14     remember, the most difficult period for common people inside Sarajevo was

15     January and February 1994.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. File, may I ask you clarification.  You said so

18     the description here, would you say that this is an accurate description

19     of what you saw in the winter-time but not in February?

20             For me in a northern hemisphere, February is still winter.

21             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I agree that it is and I

22     intended to say September.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and I take it that you understood the question

24     as such, Mr. Moroz.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 42505

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That you said you didn't see it in September?

 2             THE WITNESS:  No.  I'm absolutely sure that in September, no such

 3     picture could be seen inside Sarajevo.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you didn't see it.

 5             THE WITNESS:  I jogged around the city, and I saw a lot.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And --

 7             THE WITNESS:  And --

 8             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... you did not see this.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Absolutely.

10             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would tender that document and I

11     believe it's time for the break.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I was actually going to object to this one.  If the

14     document doesn't reflect what the witness saw, I don't know if it is

15     appropriate to introduce a newspaper article that has not been confirmed

16     by the witness as being accurate.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Moroz.

18             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, the witness did confirm the accuracy of

19     the document.  He just applied it to a different time-period.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you mean he testified about the description, a

21     description which is found in the document.  Do you withdraw the

22     objection or ...?

23             MR. IVETIC:  Stand by the objection.  This is dated September.

24     So the document proceeds to apply this to September, which the witness

25     said that is not the case so ...

Page 42506

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied.  It is relevant even if the

 5     witness contradicts parts of what is described.  That's not a reason for

 6     non-admission.

 7             Please proceed -- no, no, we do not proceed.  We first hear from

 8     Madam Registrar the number assigned to this document.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33554 receives exhibit number

10     P7777, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

12             MR. FILE:  And just to clarify, Your Honour, I believe it needs

13     to be MFI'd pending a translation.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If there's no translation - I didn't check

15     that - then the status is not admitted but marked for identification.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Not always a B/C/S translation was required and

19     sometimes documents have been admitted even when there was no B/C/S

20     translation, but you raised the matter yourself.  There was no objection.

21     Do you stand by that you'd rather have it admitted with a B/C/S

22     translation?

23             MR. FILE:  In that event, it may not be necessary, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No major problem, Mr. Ivetic.

25             Then I again change now the status from marked for identification

Page 42507

 1     to admitted.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because earlier today you tendered a document

 5     also without a translation, P7775, Mr. File.  So that -- and there was no

 6     objection to that either.

 7             We take a break but we'll take the break slightly longer.  The

 8     Chamber might wish to -- to consider among ourselves to see whether we

 9     are already in a position to give any guidance on the matters raised by

10     the parties earlier.

11             Therefore, we take a break slightly longer.  Mr. Mladic will

12     return to the UNDU, I take it, for that transportation, everything has

13     been prepared.

14             The witness may follow the usher, and we'd like to see him back

15     in half an hour.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and resume at five minutes past

18     11.00.

19                           [The accused withdrew]

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we resume, a few practical matters.

23             First of all, and I'm addressing you, Mr. Stojanovic, do you

24     confirm that the Defence is not in a position to bring a substantial

25     number of witnesses in the month of January or that the difficulties are

Page 42508

 1     such that we'd have to fear that most of the time would not be filled?

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.  For

 3     the reasons that are well known to you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This having been confirmed, the Chamber has

 5     considered these problems and has decided that we would re-start after

 6     the winter recess on Monday, the 1st of February.  Therefore, no sitting

 7     in the month of January.  We know that for the Tomasica experts, it's

 8     still rather unclear when we would hear their evidence, but then the

 9     Chamber expects you to be fully prepared for calling the six

10     international witnesses and, to the extent needed, also any witness for

11     which 92 bis applications will be denied, if there are any such

12     witnesses.  So that should then follow without further gaps in February.

13             This also means that the Defence, because we have heard about all

14     the problems and possibly need -- that there is a need for subpoenas to

15     be issued, but no motion for a subpoena has reached the Chamber until now

16     for those witnesses, and, therefore, without delay, you should work on

17     that so that the Chamber can provide the assistance you need to do what

18     we expect you to do; that is, to examine those witness in the month of

19     February, without gaps in time.

20             Finally, about the word counts, whether it should be 300.000,

21     200.000, or 400.000, the Chamber will consider that.  The Chamber will

22     also make a comparison.  The Chamber will think about it, and before the

23     winter recess we'll hear from us what number of words are allowed in the

24     final briefs.

25             We leave it to that, although there are a few other matters, but

Page 42509

 1     we leave them to this Monday.

 2             Any questions about this?  Any -- if not, could the witness be

 3     escorted into the courtroom.

 4             The Chamber suggests that we would -- in one session hear the

 5     evidence of the witness in cross-examination and in re-examination.  We

 6     are not limited to the one hour which we usually apply if Mr. Mladic is

 7     present.  So, therefore, it's our aim to conclude today's session in

 8     the -- this very same session.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  With the witness.  And I may have a few court agenda

11     items, but these are very short ones.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Moroz, Mr. File will now continue his

14     cross-examination.

15             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             Could we please look at P6555.

17        Q.   When this comes up, you will see that this is an UN document from

18     one day after the newspaper article we were just looking at, it is

19     briefing by special representative Akashi to Kofi Annan, dated 27

20     September 1994.

21             Under utilities, part a, you see:  "The gas supply is back to

22     normal, based on agreement between Karadzic and Izetbegovic to open gas

23     valves."

24             Under b, it says:  "Electricity (see attachment) repairs have

25     begun on the Sarajevo network following Karadzic's agreement to clear the

Page 42510

 1     access of repair team, provided UNPROFOR subsequently also addressed the

 2     problem of the eastern and northern Bosnia power lines of particular

 3     interest to the Serb civilian populations:

 4             "1 repair at Kokoja completed which now provides power to Ilidza

 5     (6 megawatts), Blazuj and water-pumping station at Bacevo (4 megawatts).

 6             "Vogosca pylon being repaired as we write and, therefore,

 7     electricity supply should soon be restored to central and eastern

 8     Sarajevo:

 9             "3 Kiseljak line, east of Raljevo to be repaired tomorrow thus

10     providing electricity to Buca Potok, Western Sarajevo."

11             If we could go to page 2.

12             That doesn't seem to be the correct page 2 in the English?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  This seems to be the correct page.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. FILE:  It is the correct page.

16        Q.   If you look at point c, it says:  "Water --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then we should move to the next page in B/C/S as

18     well.

19             MR. FILE:  Yes, please.

20        Q.   It says:  "Water, as a result of b(i) above, Bacevo station is

21     functioning again and water is beginning to reach western Sarajevo

22     (including PTT building)."

23             So now earlier you saw an UN document describing when utilities

24     were cut.  Now you see an UN document describing when things were brought

25     back on line.

Page 42511

 1             So my question is:  Isn't it possible that you have forgotten

 2     about this episode in September 1994?

 3        A.   Well, the problem is that during Autumn/winter after my arrival

 4     in Sarajevo there were weeks with problems described like that, and in

 5     summer and in September, all the problems appeared but they diminished to

 6     hours, maximum days and that is why people, me including them, didn't pay

 7     much attention to it because our life was already organised to the way

 8     that we get used without water in taps because we had some stocks.

 9     People used to live with shortages of electricity so -- and it was a warm

10     period.

11        Q.   So it's your testimony that --

12        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

13        Q.   -- this type of incident where the utilities are cut for 11 days

14     you might not remember that specifically?

15        A.   Yeah, because I'm absolutely sure that probably there were some

16     periods of switching on both water and electricity for short periods

17     for -- for people just to -- to make stock.

18        Q.   Okay.

19        A.   -- because so long period, 11 days without water and electricity,

20     I am absolutely sure it would be -- I would remember.

21        Q.   Let's look at that.

22             MR. FILE:  If we could have --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question in this context.

24             You also earlier told us there was never any gas as far as you

25     remember during the whole period.  Now we see in late September that it

Page 42512

 1     is before you left that the gas supply is back to normal.  So

 2     apparently -- do you allow for the point that you may have either missed

 3     some information or that you may have forgotten some elements of what

 4     happened at the time?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Once I told you here probably the first day of,

 6     that what I know about life of people inside Sarajevo, it's from their

 7     words and of what I've seen.  And in winter, when people suffered a lot,

 8     they -- they complained to me that no gas, no warm -- hard to survive.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

10             THE WITNESS:  -- and they didn't speak to me -- in summer they

11     didn't speak about gas and I didn't ask them.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If they don't speak about it, for you, it

13     seems that there is no gas or that there is gas?

14             THE WITNESS:  Well, you see it is a gap in my information --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's --

16             THE WITNESS:  -- for that period.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's understood.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. FILE:  If we could please look at 65 ter 33441.

20        Q.   This is a document from the water supply and sewage disposal

21     systems public utility company, the JKP, Vodovod i Kanalizacija which

22     covers the period from April 1992 to October 1995.  If we could please go

23     to page 6 in the English and the B/C/S, this is from the introduction?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which period does it cover, Mr. File?

25             MR. FILE:  April 1992 to October 1995.

Page 42513

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             MR. FILE:

 3        Q.   In the first full paragraph at the top of the page, it describes

 4     that this report was drafted by a working group of the Sarajevo water

 5     utility in late 1995.  And in the third full paragraph, in the middle of

 6     the page, it says that it was based on duty books and documentation

 7     possessed by the company's general manager and section managers.

 8             If we could go to page 65 in the English and page 84 in the

 9     B/C/S, which is in the section covering 1994, four paragraphs down, under

10     September you see from 14 to 27 September (1100 hours) there was not a

11     single well in operation due to an electricity shortage.

12             "On 27 September (1100 hours), and until the end of the month,

13     there were only two wells in working order, which is 18 per cent of the

14     capacity (one for the direction of Mojmilo reservoir and one for the

15     direction of Alipasin most), out of the 11 in working order."

16             So if the Bacevo pump was functioning at 18 per cent capacity,

17     this would also result in very low water pressure and supply to the

18     reservoir; correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Okay.  The last document I want to show you regarding this

21     utilities incident is from the same day; it's P6714.

22             This is a letter from the City Assembly of the Serbian City of

23     Sarajevo addressed to RS President Karadzic, the president of the

24     National Assembly of RS, and the president of the government of RS from

25     the 27th of September, 1994.

Page 42514

 1             MR. FILE:  If we could go to English, the bottom of page 4; also

 2     page 4 in the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   At paragraph 9, what you see is:  "In the most recent using of

 4     Sarajevo for the purpose of raising and lowering tensions in the whole of

 5     former Bosnia and Herzegovina (the cutting-off of electricity, water, and

 6     gas) about 40.000 households in Serbian Sarajevo have suffered

 7     considerable financial damage.  The damage is estimated at around 10

 8     million German marks.

 9             "The Assembly believes that such activities should be carried out

10     with prior consulting and informing of the political organs of the

11     municipalities and city and finding the mechanisms to evenly distribute

12     the financial damage thus created among other regions in the republic as

13     well."

14             Now, this reflects how the utilities network in Sarajevo was set

15     up in such a way that if you cut off the electricity, the water, and the

16     gas to Bosnian-held Sarajevo, you were necessarily also going to deny

17     these services and bring harm to at least some Serb-held civilian

18     neighbourhoods as well; correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Now, based on the information that we have looked at, you would

21     accept that Bosnian Serb authorities shut off the water, the power and

22     the gas to Sarajevo for at least 11 days in September 1994; right?

23        A.   Well, I can't deny or support that because we don't know the real

24     reasons of that.  Probably some technical things because my section was

25     not involved in the repair during this case --

Page 42515

 1        Q.   Okay --

 2        A.   -- that is why I am not -- I know nothing about this political

 3     and all this information exchange and I -- I told you that it was not due

 4     to hostilities.

 5        Q.   Okay --

 6        A.   -- it's for sure.

 7        Q.   I would like to go a different period in your time in Sarajevo,

 8     February 1994.  I'm going ask you about Scheduled Incident G8, which is

 9     the shelling of the Markale market-place on the 5th of February, 1994.

10             On Tuesday, you were talking about your observations of the

11     crater --

12        A.   Yeah --

13        Q.   -- I just wanted to clear up an ambiguity in the transcript at

14     T42370, lines 8 to 9.  The Presiding Judge asked you:  "Do you have any

15     special training in interpreting?"

16             And then your answer was:  "No, no."

17             Just to make sure our record is clear, I will ask you do you have

18     any special training in interpreting traces or craters from mortar

19     explosions?

20        A.   I'm not an expert in that.

21        Q.   Do you have any special training or expertise in ballistics?

22        A.   No, not special.  Only in both cases, the first question and the

23     second, only general, like military general imagination of what is going

24     on in this or that case, I have.

25        Q.   And the same is true for explosives as well?

Page 42516

 1        A.   Yeah, yeah.

 2        Q.   And you didn't see any official investigation reports at the

 3     time?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   On Tuesday, at page 42365, you talked about the height of the

 6     buildings.  And you said the trajectory of the shell couldn't be so close

 7     to the building.  But you didn't know what the trajectory of the shell

 8     was; right?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Okay?

11             MR. FILE:  Could we look at P538, please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps one question in between.

13             Did you ever measure any of that, that is, the height of the

14     building and the distance between the building and the place where the

15     shell landed?  If there was a shell.

16             THE WITNESS:  Of course not --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Fine.

18             THE WITNESS:  -- but people, civilians knew in that very place

19     where can work and where they do not work never because --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you have explained that in your statement.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. FILE:

24        Q.   This is an excerpt from the UNPROFOR investigation report for

25     that incident.  You were shown this document by my colleague

Page 42517

 1     Ms. Sutherland when you testified in the Karadzic case; correct?

 2        A.   Yeah.

 3             MR. FILE:  If we could go to English page 3 and B/C/S page 3.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If we could have an English version on our screen as

 5     well.  Yes.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. FILE:

 8        Q.   During that Karadzic testimony, you were also shown this page

 9     containing the signature of Lieutenant-Colonel N. Rumyantsev at the

10     bottom right corner of this page; correct?

11        A.   Yeah.

12        Q.   And during that testimony your attention was drawn to

13     paragraphs 12 and 13 towards the top of this page under findings which

14     confirmed the conclusions that the explosion was caused by a conventional

15     120 millimetre mortar and had been fired in a convention manner and

16     detonated upon impact with the ground; correct?  You recall being shown

17     that?

18        A.   Yeah.

19        Q.   And those conclusions are contrary to the conclusions that you

20     say that you heard from Mr. Rumyantsev; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   In the Galic case that was transcript page 18173, which is page

23     51 of D1370, you said you didn't know if he signed anything at all

24     because you hadn't seen the report and you said that you saw no reason

25     why he would tell you things contrary to the findings of the team's

Page 42518

 1     report.  And in your Karadzic testimony, after seeing this report, you

 2     were asked whether this was still your position and you confirmed that it

 3     was.  That was page T29543.  Is that still your position today?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Immediately after Markale I, there was a cease-fire;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Sorry?

 8        Q.   After this incident, after this explosion in the market-place,

 9     there was a cease-fire; hostilities declined?

10        A.   You are right, yes.

11        Q.   And that was effective in terms of reducing the shelling and the

12     sniping that had been going on in Sarajevo up to that point; right?

13        A.   Yeah.

14        Q.   And the combat at that point was low in intensity; right?

15        A.   Became less intensive, yeah.

16             MR. FILE:  Can we look at 65 ter 30744, please.

17        Q.   This is going to be a document from 9th of February, 1994 so four

18     days after that shelling incident.  It's an UNPROFOR status report.

19             MR. FILE:  If we could go to English page 3.

20        Q.   Under electricity, the second half of that comment says:  "During

21     several high level meetings between Silajdzic and Krajisnik in January,

22     it was agreed to repair the line Raljevo-Buca Potok, which is essential

23     for the distribution of electricity to the people of Sarajevo.  Still,

24     clearance for this repair mission has not been given by Pale yet."

25             Now, do you recall participating in any repair missions of that

Page 42519

 1     electricity line in the immediate aftermath of this cease-fire?

 2        A.   Well, I am -- I was during that period, I was involved in several

 3     repair mission on pylons, destroyed pylons, but I don't know if -- it

 4     were the part of that line or some other lines?

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6        A.   I -- I -- I can't say.

 7        Q.   With a reduction in hostilities that would have been a good time

 8     to do those repairs?

 9        A.   Yes, yes, each time when the hostilities, the intensity became

10     lower, our missions of renovations of civilian facilities intensified.

11             MR. FILE:  I would tender that document, please, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 30744 receives exhibit number

14     P7778, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

16             MR. FILE:  Could we please look at 1D00058.

17        Q.   This is going to be a document from roughly two weeks after the

18     shelling in the market-place.  It's another weekly BH political

19     assessment; 17 February 1994.  It will be page 2 of the B/C/S and 1 of

20     the English.

21             The second point you see, it says:  "Sarajevo is calm.  The

22     present cease-fire is by far the most effective ever made -- despite

23     major differences between the parties as to what they are expected to

24     do."

25             If we go to page 3 of the English and page 4 of the B/C/S,

Page 42520

 1     please, five paragraphs down, you see:  "The humanitarian situation in

 2     Sarajevo is relatively good.  Water, electricity and gas are still very

 3     limited, but food has been flowing in well.  The lack of adequate

 4     supplies of especially gas is particularly important as Sarajevo is in

 5     the grip of the coldest weather this winter:  Night-time temperatures

 6     have been falling to below minus 20... centigrade.  The Bosnian

 7     government claims that the valves on gas supply lines have been turned

 8     off by the Serbs, who deny this and said that the problem was originated

 9     in Serbia."

10             Were you aware of how civilians managed to stay warm during

11     winter-time without adequate supply of gas for heating?

12        A.   They used wood and sometimes they created some handmade ovens

13     just to burn wood in them and thus.

14        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to show you a document from about one month

15     after the cease-fire.  This is 65 ter 33009.  This is another weekly BH

16     political assessment from 9 March 1994.

17             Here it says:  "Peace appears to be breaking out in much of

18     Bosnian."

19             And it notes that Sarajevo remains mostly calm and there is a

20     growing sense that war will not return to the city.

21             And if we could go to page 2 in both versions, please.

22             About two thirds of the way down it says:  "Despite these

23     developments there are number of obvious obstacles to full normalisation.

24             "The city is still entirely dependant on humanitarian aid for

25     food.  There is very little water, fuel or electricity.  And the main

Page 42521

 1     roads in and out of the city remain blocked by the Serbs."

 2             Does this accord with your recollection that the city was calmer

 3     than before the cease-fire but there was still very little water, fuel or

 4     electricity?

 5        A.   Well, of course, during ceasefire the situation is calmer.  For

 6     sure.  But all this facility -- facilities which supplied some things

 7     inside Sarajevo were damaged a lot, and they needed -- in several places,

 8     and they needed some time to be renovated.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would tender those two documents we've

11     just looked at.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 1D00058 receives exhibit number

14     P7779.

15             65 ter number 33009 receives exhibit number P7780, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Both are admitted into evidence.

17             MR. FILE:  If we could look again at number 33441, which is the

18     water utility document we looked at before.

19        Q.   I'm going to take you through what happened with the Bacevo

20     pumping station during this relatively calm period.

21             MR. FILE:  If we could go to page 56 in the English and page 72

22     in the B/C/S.

23        Q.   Under February, and this is the 1994 section, it says:  "During

24     this month, the city's biggest water supply problems were caused by power

25     failures at the Bacevo source, and these occurred on 8, 9, 11, 20, 21, 25

Page 42522

 1     and 26 February."

 2             If we could go to the next page, please, in English.  About four

 3     paragraphs down, it says:  "Since there was a lot of work to do at the

 4     Bacevo source," and then it describes the work that needed to be done.

 5             It goes on to say:  "Our teams of qualified workers were set to

 6     go there but they had already been waiting 20 days for UNPROFOR to give

 7     them clearance.  Doing the above-mentioned work would much improve the

 8     relation redness of the Bacevo source and, consequently, water supply to

 9     the city."

10             Now, for UNPROFOR to give clearance for a team of Bosnian workers

11     from Sarajevo to go to the Bacevo pumping station to do repairs, that

12     would have required receiving permission from the Bosnian Serb

13     authorities; right?

14        A.   Both.  Both sides.

15        Q.   If we could go to March which is -- in English, it's same page at

16     the bottom and B/C/S, it's page 72.

17             It says:  "Our facilities mostly had a regular supply of power.

18     However, the amount of water" --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, English where?

20             MR. FILE:  At the very bottom of the page under March,

21     Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MR. FILE:

24        Q.   "However, the amount of water supplied to the city was modest

25     because our teams of qualified workers did not manage to go to the source

Page 42523

 1     to do the necessary repairs of the wells and equipment in order to supply

 2     quantities of water."

 3             If we could go to the next page in English and B/C/S, please.

 4     About four paragraphs down, it says:  "The situation at the Bacevo source

 5     was worrying because of the extent of the breakdown of the wells and the

 6     equipment.  UNPROFOR, however, could not enable our teams to go to the

 7     source and eliminate the breakdowns."

 8             Now, I take it you do not specifically recall escorting a team of

 9     Bosnian workers to make repairs at Bacevo during that month?

10        A.   We started renovation of that equipment a little bit later.

11        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at April, which is the next page in English and

12     it's page 75 in the B/C/S; next page as well.

13             Here it says:  "During the month, we had problems with power

14     supply to the Bacevo source and facilities in the city, which adversely

15     affected the operation of the wells and, consequently, water supply to

16     the city."

17             And then it describes how seven wells at Bacevo were usually

18     operating and nine were out of order, meaning it was operating at 44

19     per cent of its capacity.

20             Then it says:  "Our teams of qualified workers were unable to go

21     to Bacevo to make the necessary repairs of the wells and equipment."

22             Now if we could go to May, which is English page 60, B/C/S page

23     77.  At the bottom of the page, it says:  "With the help of UNPROFOR,

24     teams of our qualified workers managed to go to Bacevo and so a number of

25     wells were brought into operation, which resulted in increased water

Page 42524

 1     supply to the city."

 2             Next page in the English, please, and also next page in the

 3     B/C/S.

 4             Four paragraphs down, it says:  "On the 25th our teams of

 5     qualified workers were allowed access to the source, with UNPROFOR

 6     escort.  Consequently, two wells (B3 and B4) supplying the Alipasin most

 7     pump station were brought into operation, so that the source was

 8     operational at 63 per cent of its capacity, or ten wells ..."

 9             Do you recall whether you participated in this repair mission to

10     Bacevo in the 25th of May 1994?

11        A.   I couldn't support now the exact date of the mission, but I

12     should say that it -- it were a number of missions.  It took around two,

13     probably three weeks, not everyday activity but probably each other day,

14     activity of that repair works.

15        Q.   Okay.

16        A.   Because just let me explain why.  Because, first of all, we

17     were -- there was a reconnaissance, reccy mission like we called it,

18     because people, specialists, went there to find out what spare parts

19     needed, and they start gathering some parts from one engine, one well, to

20     install -- to ignite broken engines.  Then from ten, for instance, make

21     operational two or three.  And then they order some spare parts through

22     UNPROFOR logistics, some logistics departments --

23        Q.   And this process started in May of 1994?

24        A.   No, earlier.

25        Q.   Well, I'm going to ask you about something you said on Tuesday at

Page 42525

 1     transcript page 42349.

 2             You said:  "There were difficulties with the water supplying

 3     because there were periods especially during winter when pumping stations

 4     in Ilidza, where water was pumping into the mountain of Mojmilo were not

 5     operational due to -- sometimes the reason was lack of electricity and

 6     for some period, it was around two months only, there were around 11

 7     dozen -- sorry, there were around a dozen of engines pumping water and

 8     only several of them were in operation and that was there was a -- it was

 9     a lack of water in reservoir in Mojmilo."

10             So this episode that we were just looked at, where Bacevo was

11     operating below its capacity, is this the episode that you were referring

12     to in your testimony?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you would acknowledge, after seeing this documentation, that

15     although you said it was around two months, in fact, it was over three

16     months?

17        A.   Well, I told you around two months, because time has passed and I

18     recollect just my general idea.

19        Q.   Okay.  And the key problem here was getting access to make

20     repairs; right?

21        A.   Yeah.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now, this Chamber has also heard evidence that only four

23     days before the team of Bosnian repair workers was given clearance to go

24     to Bacevo the VRS Main Staff issued an order transmitting Radovan

25     Karadzic's instructions not to obstruct the flow of water, electricity or

Page 42526

 1     gas without his permission.  That's P6557.  And when you were in

 2     Sarajevo, were aware of any such instructions from the Bosnian Serb

 3     political or military leadership?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Now, a month or so later, from June into July 1994 Bosnian

 6     Serb forces were shooting at or near the UNPROFOR repair teams again;

 7     right?

 8        A.   During summer, this period was very calm.  And I do not remember

 9     to be shot at during my mission at that period.

10             MR. FILE:  Could we look at P6553, please.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we do that.  I remember that you might

12     have mentioned this on Tuesday but I just wanted to reconfirm:  How were

13     the qualified working teams constituted in terms of ethnicity?

14             THE WITNESS:  They were -- we have chosen not in accordance with

15     the ethnicity but in accordance with their professional knowledge.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  But did you take -- I thought you mentioned

17     something like taking some people from the Bosnian side of the war and

18     others from the Serb side of the war, irrespective of ethnicity but

19     people coming from opposing camps.  Is that what you understood you to

20     say last time?

21             THE WITNESS:  There were various cases.  For instance, as far as

22     electricity line reparation, pylon reparation, there were specialists

23     only on Serbian side.  As for sewage system clearance, only on Muslim

24     side.  Sometimes I told you that, for reasons I already mentioned, there

25     were joint teams when they -- they wanted to be sure that everything was

Page 42527

 1     done correctly, spare parts installed, so on and so forth.  But as far as

 2     water field renovation, specialists were only on Muslim side.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MR. FILE:  If we could look at -- I see it's come up now, P6553.

 5     This is a meeting -- minutes of a meeting at Sarajevo airport on

 6     electricity.  The top of the first page you see several UN

 7     representatives present, Lieutenant-Colonel Ricquet of UN BH command and

 8     Major Cirefice listed as number 5.  Did you know either of these

 9     individuals?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   If we could go to e-court page 2 for both versions, please.

12     Under paragraph 2.1, you see it says:  "Major Cirefice reported that

13     repairs are being performed on two lines, Velesici-Kosevo and

14     Vogosca-Kakanj.  He said that much time had been lost on the line

15     Velesici-Kosevo because of shooting from both sides.  Works on the line

16     Vogosca-Kakanj had been stopped because of shooting from Serbian side

17     close to Ilijas."

18             If you look down at paragraph 2.4, it says:  "Lieutenant-Colonel

19     talked about problems between BSA and UNPROFOR.  He said that Serbian

20     side obstructs the works by shooting at the teams.  Are the works going

21     to be performed or should the teams be withdrawn?  The repairs on

22     electric power networks are also political problem.  These repairs are

23     being performed on BH side but not on BS side."

24             So does this refresh your recollection as to the amount of

25     shooting that was takes place during this period in 1994?

Page 42528

 1        A.   I missed what date of this document?

 2        Q.   This is the 7th of July, 1994.

 3        A.   My recollections say that shooting, sniper shooting, diminished

 4     by that period significantly.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6        A.   And they were just -- so, you see, my -- my estimation were that

 7     they were just joking.  I was several -- personally, me was several times

 8     shot at, but each time traces of bullets were just close to my legs.  I

 9     am absolutely sure that if they wanted to kill me, they would kill me

10     because they were good snipers, good specialists.

11        Q.   If they were wanting to interfere with repair missions, they were

12     succeeding; right?

13        A.   Yeah.

14        Q.   On Tuesday you also talks about occasions where your section

15     chief said that certain water valves or wells were found closed off or

16     turned off in Bosnian Muslim-held Sarajevo, that was T42350.  Now, it's

17     true if you have a weak water flow or a weak water supply, closing some

18     wells or valves could increase the water pressure to neighbourhoods where

19     the valves were left open; right?

20        A.   Well, probably, yes.

21        Q.   And if you alternated the valves that were open in different

22     neighbourhoods, you could distribute water across a greater part of the

23     city over time; right?

24        A.   Well, the system was rather complicated.  I can't neither support

25     or disprove you.

Page 42529

 1        Q.   Okay.  Did you receive any briefings when you arrived in Sarajevo

 2     in October 1993?

 3        A.   Of course.

 4        Q.   And did you ever learn, either through a formal briefing or

 5     through informal conversations, that before you arrived Sarajevo

 6     Ratko Mladic had used the possibility of restoring the water supply that

 7     had been cut off from Sarajevo as a negotiating tool with your colleagues

 8     at UNPROFOR?

 9        A.   I haven't heard anything about that.

10             MR. FILE:  Could we look at 65 ter number 08230, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. File, are you testing the recollection of the

12     witness or are you seeking to establish that that's what happened?

13     Because if that -- the latter is the case, why would you do that through

14     this witness who said that he didn't hear about it?

15             MR. FILE:  Well, this shows -- it is the latter, Your Honour, and

16     it shows the extent of the witness's knowledge, what he was aware of as

17     well as how he may have interpreted certain events that he saw while he

18     was there.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's also testing the recollection of the witness

20     that what he would have known or should have known.

21             MR. FILE:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's the first and the second.

23             MR. FILE:  That's a better way of putting it, yes.  Thank you,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 42530

 1             MR. FILE:  This is 23 July 1993 report from UNPROFOR headquarters

 2     to -- in Sarajevo to UNPROFOR HQ in Zagreb.

 3        Q.   If you look at page 1, paragraph 1d, it says:  "To ensure his

 4     co-operation, Mladic gave details of road and bridge repairs that he

 5     wished to see made.  Moreover, he asked for the water supply to be

 6     reinstated by UNPROFOR in the town of Donji Vakuf.  This was given as a

 7     prerequisite for the restoration of water to" --

 8             And if we go to the next page:  "... Sarajevo."

 9             So this was something that did you not hear, either through a

10     briefing or any conversations with your colleagues at UNPROFOR?

11        A.   No.  Because the day I arrived, the same day they went home after

12     they finish of duty, so I didn't have chance to communicate with guys who

13     did the job I did after them.

14             MR. FILE:  I would tender that document, Your Honour.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honour, if the witness doesn't know about

16     it, he has tested the recollection of witness with the document and it

17     hasn't caused witness to change his testimony then I'm a bit concerned

18     that we're trying to introduce a document through a witness who doesn't

19     know anything about the document, and that is exactly the former of the

20     two options that Your Honour made rather than the first.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. File.

22             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would expect the witness to know about

23     this information, and the fact that information exists is the other half

24     of the equation, so I think it would assist the Trial Chamber to have

25     this.

Page 42531

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. File, that would justify introducing whatever

 3     information that exists just on the basis of that you expect for whatever

 4     reason - and you may have some reasons for that - that the witness would

 5     be aware of it.  I think you read the relevant portion of the document

 6     which apparently was knowledge available at the time.

 7             The admission is denied.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. FILE:  One moment, Your Honour.

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. File.

13             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   I just have a couple of questions about your answers on Tuesday

15     regarding hearing from a Russian peacekeeper that he saw Muslim soldiers

16     crossing the river at night-time.  Do you recall giving that testimony?

17        A.   Yeah.

18        Q.   You were quoted from your prior testimony at transcript

19     page 42360 as having said:  "The officers [sic] told me that soldiers

20     went from the old city, crossed the river, and then went in a south

21     direction up to the hill, where -- which was the area of Serbian

22     forces -- the position of Serbian forces.  Well, and during the day the

23     fire was done in the direction of the old city."

24             First of all, just to clarify:  You never saw this yourself;

25     right?

Page 42532

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   And were you aware that the confrontation lines went through the

 3     Jewish cemetery and all the way up the hill to Debelo Brdo?

 4        A.   Well, I don't remember just names of that area, but it was the

 5     hill just along so-called sniper strasse.

 6             MR. FILE:  Could we look at P3, page 76, please.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             MR. FILE:

 9        Q.   Here you can see the confrontation lines marked in blue and red,

10     with blue representing the Bosnian Serb side and red representing Bosnian

11     Muslim side.

12        A.   Mm-hm.

13        Q.   This shows the area to the south of the river with the elevation

14     of Debelo Brdo roughly in the middle.  Does this refresh your

15     recollection of the names of those features and the positions of the

16     warring parties at that time?

17        A.   Well, Novo Sarajevo, yes.  Yes, yes.

18        Q.   And were you aware that the Muslim side had its own positions on

19     this hill?

20        A.   Personally me --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

22     speak into the microphone.  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS:  Just a moment.  Because I -- I just look at the

24     map.

25             Well, I never seen Muslim positions in that area.  I don't

Page 42533

 1     know -- no trenches -- I don't know what they used for -- for that, but

 2     in that area, I haven't seen positions of Muslim side.

 3             MR. FILE:

 4        Q.   Okay.  Last set of questions.  You spent -- on a few occasions

 5     today, you talked about the difficult times during the winter between --

 6        A.   Yeah --

 7        Q.   -- 1993 and 1994.

 8             If we could have 65 ter 33008, please.

 9             This is an UNPROFOR fax from Akashi to Andreev regarding security

10     of civil affairs staff in BH dated 18 January 1994, and it encloses a

11     13 January memorandum from Cedric Thornberry, the head of civil affairs,

12     to Mr. Akashi.

13             If we could go to English and B/C/S page 2, please.

14             You'll see that paragraph 2 of this memo states:  "All civilian

15     officers working in Sarajevo have been in life-threatening situations

16     during the last few weeks, near-victims of sniper attacks and mortar

17     bombs.  They are constantly having to decide between not doing their jobs

18     effectively and risking their lives."

19             If we can go to English and B/C/S page 3, please.

20             Under paragraph 4, it says:  "For UN peacekeeping, all staff

21     participants accept a level of risk which would otherwise be intolerable.

22     But the BH situation has been getting worse in recent months - not only

23     in SarajevoSarajevo and Mostar now rank with Kabul and Mogadishu as

24     amongst the most dangerous places in the world."

25             It goes on to say:  "Accommodation is often insecure and movement

Page 42534

 1     to and from places of work and residence is habitually hazardous in

 2     Sarajevo."

 3             Now, during this period, 1994, January and before, you were fired

 4     on while attempting to carry out your duties in repairing utilities

 5     lines; right?

 6        A.   Yeah.

 7        Q.   And was some of that fire from the Bosnian Serb side?

 8        A.   I can't say who -- who fired at me.  It -- at my mission.

 9        Q.   Okay.  You were also fired on while travelling between your

10     accommodation in the Marsal Tito barracks and your headquarters in the

11     PTT building; right?

12        A.   Yeah.

13             MR. FILE:  I would tender that document, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 33008 receives exhibit number

16     P7781, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

18             One question for you, Witness.  If you say, I can't say who fired

19     at me, do you mean to say that you couldn't even tell us whether you were

20     fired from both sides when you did your missions or that it was ...

21             THE WITNESS:  The problem of identification of the source of

22     shooting was that the greater part of that was from the area -- neutral

23     zone area.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

25             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I also realised I may have omitted to

Page 42535

 1     tender number 33441 before, which was the water utility document.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's 84 pages, isn't it?  You want us to read

 3     all of them, where you used three or four?

 4             MR. FILE:  I'm not asking you to read all of them, although it is

 5     a resource that covered the entire period of the --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. File, if you present it into evidence, all of

 7     it, we read all it.  And, therefore, just to say, We dealt with those,

 8     the whole of the document, the usual solution for that is that you make

 9     an excerpt of relevant pages and that you -- perhaps with a cover page,

10     if need be, and perhaps specifically in relation to the pages mentioned

11     also the in-between cover pages where it says, This is 1994 so that we

12     have a clear orientation as far as timing is concerned.

13             Before we decide, Mr. Ivetic, do you have any objections

14     against --

15             MR. IVETIC:  I have an objection to the whole thing coming in

16     when we've not had evidence or witnesses to authenticate the document and

17     to discuss what's in it.  So, yes, I have an objection to the whole thing

18     coming in.  I don't have an objection to what Your Honour has suggested,

19     which is the selection.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.

21             Could we then hear from you, Mr. File, what is the origin of the

22     document.

23             And, Mr. Ivetic, if you have any specific concerns about the --

24     about the authenticity of the document, please convey to us what they

25     are.

Page 42536

 1             But, first, for you, Mr. File.

 2             MR. FILE:  Yes, Your Honour.  The pages from the introduction

 3     that I referred to at the -- during the first use of that document

 4     describe the -- its provenance and what it's based on, which is a working

 5     group from that public utility company, and that the information is based

 6     on their own records.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you There.  I mean, if I write a

 8     document saying that I, the president of state X, issue a certain order,

 9     then saying the authenticity is proved by just saying, Well, that's what

10     the document says.  Of course, authenticity is a problem, and I was

11     primarily interested in provenance, where did you find it, was it in an

12     archive, rather than to say, That's what the document says.  Because

13     there's no dispute about that, I take it, Mr. Ivetic.

14             MR. FILE:  Our records show that we've received it from AID

15     Sarajevo on 5th of April, 2000.  That's the information that we have in

16     our evidence records.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And does it say anything about where AID got it

18     from?  Because I don't know whether the AID is usually keeping the

19     records of water supply companies.

20             MR. FILE:  I don't believe that information is indicated,

21     Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Would you please try to find out whether

23     there is any other knowledge about it.

24             And now I'm addressing you, Mr. Ivetic.  What are your specific

25     concerns about ...

Page 42537

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I appreciate that you supported my idea

 3     that we should have an excerpt rather than whole of the document, but I

 4     think you still had concerns remaining, authenticity.

 5             Could you specify what especially supports your suspicions about

 6     the authenticity of this document.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             Throughout this trial, we've had numerous objections as to

 9     questionable documents that have come from AID which, again, is the

10     secret police in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We've had the witness -- testimony

11     of a witness from that service who talked about the head of the AID

12     basically talking about how to fix a trial and talking about illegal

13     activities that were undertaken by that agency.  That was Mr. Garaplija.

14             So under those circumstances, and as Your Honours rightly pointed

15     out, it is kind of strange that documents supporting -- purporting to be

16     from a utility company are in the hands of the secret police of that same

17     entity.  It would be different if they got it from the Serb side; but if

18     it's purported to be from the government side and it's coming through the

19     secret police, I'm a little bit -- I don't see how it would get into

20     their possession.  They're not - to my knowledge - the custodians of such

21     records.  The utility companies themselves would be and the Ministry of

22     Energy would be.

23             So to say a document came from the secret police raises great

24     suspicions in my mind.  Again, I don't know, because we've just received

25     this document for the first time in the notification for this witness so

Page 42538

 1     I have not had a chance to do any investigations on the Defence side.

 2     I'm just always hesitant to see a large document of 84 pages that we're

 3     told comes from the secret police and might talk about all sorts of

 4     things, since I haven't read it all, to have the whole thing come into

 5     evidence without having a proper witness to talk about these things and

 6     to see whether what's in that document is actually always 100 per cent

 7     accurate or reflects confirmed information.

 8             That's all I have to say.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There's nothing in the document itself - I

10     mean, inconsistency in information or something of the kind - but your

11     suspicion is that it may have been an 84-pages falsification of a

12     document.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Or that parts of it are.  I don't know.  We've just

14     received it.  I haven't had a chance to read all 84 pages, to be quite

15     honest, Your Honours.

16             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would just add if you look at the parts

17     of the document that we've examined today it is corroborated by other UN

18     documents, by newspaper articles, the descriptions of the time-periods

19     for shortages are corroborated within both this document as well as -- as

20     other submissions that we've made.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, I appreciate what you've said, but

23     does that argument you are putting go to saying you don't want a page of

24     this document admitted, or are you prepared to accept excerpts?

25             MR. IVETIC:  I think I've said already once and, Your Honour,

Page 42539

 1     Judge Orie has said it.  I don't have a problem with the excerpts that

 2     have been confirmed by this witness to come in.  That's not a problem.

 3     The problem is the whole 84 pages.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So an excerpt would not -- despite your doubts as to

 6     authenticity, would, nevertheless -- would not for those pages where the

 7     witness testified about events.  That's --

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Exactly.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. File -- yes, then I may have misunderstood

10     you in that respect, and Judge Moloto apparently was listening better to

11     you.

12             Mr. File, if you -- you know that no admissibility issues arise

13     if you upload the relevant pages you dealt with.  I leave it in your

14     hands at this moment whether or not to persist or to choose that way.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, we -- that's -- that's fine.  We're happy

18     to tender excerpts.  I would also include the introduction which

19     describes the nature of the document which we looked at briefly for

20     clarification.  And just for the record, we don't believe that this is a

21     fabrication in any way.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that you'll show to Mr. Ivetic the

23     excerpts before you finally upload them and see whether there's any

24     disagreement about what portions. But --

25             MR. FILE:  Yes, Your Honour --

Page 42540

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I also do understand it is very limited, the

 2     initial pages and, apart from that, timing and the pages you used.

 3             MR. FILE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll ask Madam Registrar to already reserve a

 5     number for those excerpts still to be uploaded.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  P7782, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That number is reserved.

 8             Could we hear from you after you've discussed the matter with

 9     Mr. Ivetic.  And I know the winter recess is coming close, well, let's

10     say, before Christmas, and it doesn't make any difference anymore now

11     which Christmas it is because we'll not be sitting in January.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. FILE:

14        Q.   So final document I want to show you is 65 ter 33553.

15             I just want to show you a description of life in Sarajevo roughly

16     six to seven months after the February cease-fire during the utilities

17     cut-off that we were discussing at the beginning of this

18     cross-examination.  This is from the 19th of September, 1994.

19             I'm going to read the first five paragraphs of this and then ask

20     you a question.

21             It says:  "Six months after a NATO ultimatum stopped the Serbian

22     shelling of Sarajevo, this city has entered a nightmare-ish twilight zone

23     in which the horrors are less palpable than exploding shrapnel but more

24     insidious and just as destructive.

25             "Deprived of their freedom surrounded by green hills that mock

Page 42541

 1     them with their inaccessibility, often without water and electricity,

 2     people complain of living in an agonising limbo where the adrenaline

 3     caused by terror has been replaced by mounting anxiety and a wave of

 4     depression.

 5             "'The feeling now is of being in a room with all the windows

 6     closed,' said Jasmin Spahovic, a policeman.  'When I think of the coming

 7     winter, I think of having to burn my furniture for heat.  We're broke,

 8     we're surrounded, and we feel like animals in a zoo.'

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should slow down.

10             MR. FILE:  "Doctors, psychologists and social workers say

11     stress-related illnesses in Sarajevo have soared to unprecedented levels

12     over the past few months.  Dr. Zeljko Trgrancic, a psychologist at the

13     Kosevo Hospital, said one-quarter of hospital beds were now occupied by

14     people suffering from what he called post-traumatic stress disorder.  'In

15     the first phase of the war, there was shock, but people still had

16     reserves of strength ... but this year, since the shelling eased off, we

17     have seen mounting suicide, depression, apathy, and alcoholism.  We

18     estimate that stress disorders in the city are now at nine times pre-war

19     levels.'"

20             So my question for you is:  Even in light of your observations of

21     the civilian activity that came after the February 1994 cease-fire, you

22     don't exclude that this description of the civilian population in

23     Sarajevo in September could be accurate; right?

24        A.   Well, to my mind, he -- this article -- so shifted a little bit

25     accents to the worst side.  Because my personal experience in relations

Page 42542

 1     with journalists, I made several interview.  I gave several interview to

 2     journalists from -- rather respected journalists, and when I read with my

 3     photo the article which arrived after my interview, I read nothing what I

 4     told a journalist about.

 5        Q.   Okay.  When --

 6        A.   And that is why I should say there is -- I accept that people

 7     suffered a lot and stress was very big.  And when the situation became

 8     calmer, all the stresses came around and they suffered a lot.  It's

 9     psychological.  But as far as the whole atmosphere of the city is

10     concerned, I see nothing of the kind that I have seen because it was --

11     September was a period of hope.

12        Q.   So to clarify, when you were speaking of the civilian population

13     trying to get on with their lives and regain a sense of normalcy during

14     the cease-fire, you would still accept that, under the surface, they may

15     have been deeply scarred by the traumas?

16        A.   Yeah, yeah.  Surely.  Surely.

17             MR. FILE:  Nothing further, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. File.

19             Mr. Ivetic, any further questions in re-examination?

20             MR. IVETIC:  I do.  Just shortly.

21                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

22        Q.   Colonel, you started telling us about your own personal

23     experiences dealing with interviews given to the media that were not, I

24     guess, accurately recorded.  What about the situation that you saw in

25     Sarajevo?  How was the media reporting about what was going on in

Page 42543

 1     Sarajevo?  How did it compare to what you were seeing during your tour?

 2     Do any other -- apart from your interviews, do any other incidents come

 3     up in your memory that did not accord with what you were seeing in

 4     Sarajevo?

 5        A.   Well, inside PTT building officers discussed a lot.  The

 6     reflection in media, the situation in Sarajevo.  And the general -- the

 7     general impression was that no -- how to say it?  No relevant information

 8     were reflected in media.  No -- neither in Russian, neither in Ukrainian,

 9     what we have access to.  No Americans, no British, no French.  I don't

10     read French, and I ask French officers what French journalists TV says

11     about the situation in -- in -- and they answered me:  Lie like

12     everybody.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could I ask you the following in that context.

14             Now and then we've seen media reports -- and I'm not taking any

15     position as to the accuracy, but sometimes this Chamber was able to

16     verify the accuracy on the basis of other documentation, whether that

17     would be reports, UN reports, BiH reports, Bosnian Serb reports,

18     whatever.  Are you saying that whatever was written is always wrong

19     anyhow?

20             THE WITNESS:  No.  No, I'm speaking about media.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm talking about media as well.  You say

22     whatever they write in the media, it's -- it's not true anyhow?

23             THE WITNESS:  All media stands on lie or other side.  And it

24     is -- sometimes lie is 1 per cent, really, when I read magazines in

25     Sarajevo, I am asking myself, Where I am now?

Page 42544

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You say it's -- it wasn't -- it's often not

 2     objective.  If you say lie was 1 per cent or did you want to say that lie

 3     was 100 per cent?

 4             THE WITNESS:  Well, it's my personal estimation.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but if lie is 1 per cent then there's still 99

 6     per cent truth.

 7             THE WITNESS:  But sometimes 1 per cent is more important than 99

 8     truth.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Fine.  I leave it to that.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

11             MR. IVETIC:

12        Q.   If I can ask you to clarify your previous answer.  You said that

13     you don't read French and you asked the French officers what the French

14     journalists and TV say about the situation.  And what is in the

15     transcript I'm not sure records what you said that they told you.

16             So could you again repeat for us what the French told you about

17     the French TV and news.

18        A.   They told me that a lot of lie there.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now I think we have the full answer.

20             One other item I'd like to talk with you about.  It's a document

21     that was used with you and it is now received the number P7779.  And I'd

22     like to have page 4 in the B/C/S, page 3 in the English, and if my notes

23     are correct, it should be the fifth paragraph from the top.

24             It's actually going to be the sixth paragraph from the top on the

25     English.

Page 42545

 1             So this is just after the part that was read to you by the

 2     Prosecution where they stopped.  And it says:  "BH authorities in

 3     Sarajevo appear to be diverting even more food than usual away from

 4     intended beneficiaries.  The civilian population of Sarajevo may be

 5     receiving less than a third of the aid brought into the city.  It is not

 6     entirely clear what is happening to the balance:  Some resurfaces on the

 7     black market; and some of it is diverted to the military; most, however,

 8     cannot be accounted for."

 9             Is that a situation that was discussed or known of within

10     UNPROFOR in Sarajevo, that the BH Muslim authorities were diverting food

11     from its citizens?

12        A.   It was commonly accepted.  We even discussed that because we knew

13     it for sure.  Because we have seen in the market, products, some goods

14     which were delivered by UNHCR, like humanitarian aid.  And it was rather

15     expensive.

16        Q.   Colonel, I have no further questions for you.  I'd like to thank

17     you for your time and patience these last few days.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. File, any need for further questions?

19             MR. FILE:  No, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Moroz, this concludes, then, your testimony

21     because the Judges have no further questions for you either.  I'd like to

22     thank you very much for coming to The Hague, a long way to The Hague, for

23     having answered all the questions that were put to you, put to you by the

24     parties, put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home

25     again.

Page 42546

 1             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, following the usher or leading the usher to

 5     the doorway is two different ways of moving in this courtroom.

 6             Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You're on your feet.  I have a few court agenda

 9     items, but I'll give you first an opportunity to raise whatever you would

10     like to raise.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             I was in the public gallery this morning while Mr. Tieger was

13     explaining our conversations, although he mentioned Defence, and he was

14     talking to me, and since I heard that you might decide on the issue of

15     the final brief on Monday, I was called by Mr. Ivetic since he was not

16     privy with my conversation with Mr. Tieger to say and confirm or try to

17     explain - not to deny - my conversations with Mr. Tieger.  And although

18     it was said at page 7, line 6, that Mr. Tieger thinks that he captured

19     with full accuracy the information that has arisen and exchanged during

20     the discussion with the Defence, at this moment, I have to differ, with

21     all due respect, and I will try to explain our position.  Maybe there was

22     no -- enough understanding in between the parties.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please --

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Thank you --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- bring to our attention whatever you wish.

Page 42547

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             I want to emphasise to the Court that the Defence did agree with

 3     the OTP on the word limit, being 300.000 words, as Mr. Tieger stated.  We

 4     also talked about the time needed for the final brief.  The Defence

 5     position is that we would need nine months, and the Prosecution position

 6     is that they would ask for six months.

 7             The bottom line is that the Defence cannot start with writing the

 8     final brief before we file our bar table motion, and it's due on the 18th

 9     of January next year, as I remember.  Every member of our team is

10     involved in that task when not engaged with our witnesses.

11             Also, we have to finish our work with the remaining witnesses, in

12     particular, with our expert witnesses who require thorough preparation.

13     We cannot commit ourselves to anything else before at least their

14     testimony is complete.  As there are only three of us, we do not have

15     luxury that the Prosecution does to have numerous people to -- asking --

16     to assign tasks to.  We believe that the time we have requested is a

17     realistic and extremely reasonable given the circumstances.

18             We can think maybe of six months only after our expert witnesses

19     finish their testimony.

20             That's actually the position of the Defence, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that --

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify

23     this issue.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber will consider the matter, and I

25     said there are a few matters -- we briefly discussed during the break the

Page 42548

 1     submissions made by the parties, and we explicitly considered that the

 2     timing further down the road is not a matter on which we would decide

 3     now.  There were too many uncertain elements in it, and the Chamber heard

 4     that Mr. Tieger was very much emphasizing that, depending on the time up

 5     to the moment where the case is closed, the Defence case is closed, that

 6     that would be a relevant aspect of the matter as well.  But we have not

 7     yet, at this moment, considered it.  But your position now is clear.

 8             And Mr. McCloskey is on his feet.  And I think Judge Fluegge may

 9     have a question as well.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, before Mr. McCloskey responds.

11             Just for my understanding, you said:  "We can think maybe of six

12     months only after our expert witnesses finish their testimony."

13             MR. LUKIC:  That's where we mentioned also six months.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Six months --

15             MR. LUKIC:  After the finishing of the testimony of our expert

16     witnesses, meaning --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Until the deadline for the final brief.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  That was my question.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, you're again on your feet.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't want to complicate this, but please do

23     not take as what Mr. Lukic said as the Prosecution requesting for six

24     months.  We have not made any specific request, and should the Court ask

25     us to, we will.  But I think we can take what Mr. Tieger said and leave

Page 42549

 1     it at there for now.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I mentioned what he apparently was

 3     emphasizing very much, that the time when we would not be sitting on a

 4     daily basis, perhaps waiting for a last portion of evidence, whether that

 5     would be experts or one witness who was not easy to reach or to get to

 6     The Hague, that that should be taken into consideration.  That's what I

 7     understood what Mr. Tieger's emphasis was.

 8             Any other matter?

 9             If not, I have, as I said before, a few short court agenda items.

10     I'll deal with them briefly before we adjourn.  They are all remaining

11     issues from the testimony of witness Mitar Kovac.

12             First deals with Mitar Kovac's expert report, Rule 65 ter number

13     1D5358.

14             In its oral decision of the 16th of July, 2015, granting

15     Mitar Kovac the status of a military expert, the Chamber observed that

16     some of the information contained in his expert report which is Rule 65

17     ter number 1D5358 is beyond the scope of the witness's expertise.  The

18     Chamber therefore advised the parties to focus their examination of the

19     witness on those aspects of the report which relate to the witness's area

20     of expertise, and this can be found at transcript pages 37478 to -481.

21     Also, on the 19th of November during the witness's testimony, the Chamber

22     noted on the record that there are some problems with the English

23     translation of the report, and this is to be found at transcript

24     page 41636.  And in light of the foregoing, the Chamber requests the

25     Defence to verify and correct the translation and to identify which

Page 42550

 1     portions of the report it intends on tendering into evidence.

 2             Next issue is about P7681.

 3             On the 19th of November, 2015, Exhibit P7681, a military report,

 4     was admitted into evidence.

 5             On the 23rd of November, the Chamber noted on the record a

 6     discrepancy -- that a discrepancy existed between the original document

 7     and the English translation and asked the Prosecution to verify and

 8     correct the translation.  This is to be found at transcript pages 41701

 9     to -702.

10             On the 24th of November, the Prosecution informed the Chamber and

11     the Defence, via e-mail, that a revised translation has been uploaded

12     into e-court under doc ID 0205-6890-1-ET.

13             And the Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the old

14     English translation of the document with the new one.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if there's any issue with the new -- with the

17     new translation or the -- then we'd like to hear from the Defence, well,

18     let's say, not later than Tuesday.

19             The last one is about "The Islamic Declaration."

20             On the 18th of November, 2015, during the testimony of

21     Mitar Kovac, the Chamber instructed the parties to agree which extract of

22     "The Islamic Declaration" would be tendered into evidence; to be found at

23     transcript page 41522 to -525.  The declaration was previously marked not

24     admitted without prejudice as D557.

25             On the 19th of November, the Defence informed the Chamber and the

Page 42551

 1     Prosecution, via e-mail, that the proposed excerpt was uploaded into

 2     e-court under Rule 65 ter number 1D00172a.

 3             Any objection against this excerpt by the Prosecution?

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, we're going to need to just take a

 5     good look at that and --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that.  We often have followed the practice

 7     that we already instruct Madam Registrar to -- to -- to replace the old

 8     version -- oh, to assign the number and that we admit it but that you can

 9     revisit the matter within, let's say, before Christmas again.  Because it

10     is a bit more work perhaps.

11             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to assign D557 to this

12     excerpt as uploaded of which I just gave the number and admits D557 into

13     evidence.

14             And the Prosecution has an opportunity to revisit the matter

15     before Christmas.

16             Then we have one remaining issue from the testimonies of

17     Zorica Subotic and Mile Poparic.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The item I wished to address will not be addressed

20     because some additional information on the matter contained in it was

21     received by the Chamber.  Therefore, we'll first look at that in more

22     detail.

23             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume Monday, the 14th of

24     December, 2015, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.41 p.m.,

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 1                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of

 2                           December, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.