Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 42642

 1                           Tuesday, 15 December 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is

 9     case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             No preliminary matters were announced.  I suggest that we first

12     briefly move into closed sessions in order to allow the witness to come

13     in, and I would like to deal with a matter as well when we are in private

14     session -- closed session.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17                           [Closed session]

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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

24             Good morning, Witness.  Witness, you will give your --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 42644

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you'll give your evidence today under protective

 2     measures.  The protective measures are pseudonym, image distortion, and

 3     voice distortion, which means that we'll not use your own name.  We'll

 4     address you as "GRM116," that's how we'll call you.  No one outside this

 5     courtroom will see your face or will hear your voice.

 6             You -- there is someone in the courtroom you would know well.

 7     His role has been explained to him, and it's not in any way to intervene

 8     in the examination.

 9             Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a

10     solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you

11     to make that solemn declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  GRM116

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Witness.

17             Witness, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You find

18     Mr. Stojanovic to your left.

19             Can you see the witness, Mr. Stojanovic, sufficiently?

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic, but before

22     we start, we do understand that you brought some papers with you.  Would

23     you please put them aside and only consult them after prior consultation.

24     You don't have to give them -- if you just turn them -- yes.

25             Okay.  So you shouldn't consult them without having asked

Page 42645

 1     permission to do so.

 2             Mr. Stojanovic, if are you ready, please proceed.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             I should like to call up, Your Honours, 65 ter 1D05182 not to be

 5     broadcast.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, sir, if you could look at the screen

10     before you, there is a document, and without reading anything aloud,

11     would you kindly look at that document and tell us if the personal

12     details indicated there are correct.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... could you

14     please look on the right screen.  There is the document you should look

15     at.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- perhaps the usher could assist the

17     witness.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is correct.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should like 65

22     ter 1D05182 to be MFI'd.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  MFI'd for what reason?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Or admitted into evidence.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't understand.

Page 42646

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Not MFI'd, but admitted into

 2     evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You may have been a bit unclear if I understand the

 4     interpreters well.

 5             Mr. Registrar, the number would be ...

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D1387, under seal,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted under seal.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Sir, would you please tell the Court what schools you have

11     finished.

12        A.   The primary school, the secondary school, high school.

13        Q.   What jobs did you do before the war broke out in

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15        A.   I worked as a driver.

16        Q.   Did you do your military service?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Would you tell us where and when.

19        A.   In Capljina and in Doboj.

20        Q.   Would you tell us in which year.

21        A.   In 1980/1981.

22        Q.   Do you have a military rank or military training?

23        A.   In the Yugoslav people's army, I did not have a rank; and in

24     Biseri, in the end, they gave me the rank of sergeant.

25        Q.   Where were you when the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina in

Page 42647

 1     the spring of 1992?

 2        A.   I was in my native town, Visegrad.

 3        Q.   Did you stay there or did you leave Visegrad?

 4        A.   While there were tensions and barricades were put up and while

 5     there was a chance of keeping Visegrad, we stay there; however, when the

 6     Uzice Corps - provoked by the threat of Mirad Sabanovic [phoen], that he

 7     will be blow up the dam - when the Uzice Corps came into town, we left

 8     for Gorazde.

 9        Q.   Could you tell us approximately which month that was in 1992 when

10     you moved to Gorazde?

11        A.   I believe it was April --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'm just concerned, based on the past

14     transcript that I've reviewed and the nature of the witness's evidence,

15     that we might be getting close to compromising whatever protective

16     measures that he might have been provided.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you've heard the concerns expressed

18     by Mr. Weber.  I take it that you'll take care that in -- you'll not be

19     too late in asking for private session.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is right, Your Honour.  I

22     discussed that with the witness yesterday, and we will take care just as

23     we discussed.

24        Q.   How long did you stay in Gorazde, sir?

25        A.   Very briefly.

Page 42648

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your question was not answered, Mr. Stojanovic.

 2     Mr. Weber stood up before it could be answered -- oh, it was answered.

 3     Thank you.  Sorry.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, line 10,

 5     page 6.

 6        Q.   Could you tell us now:  After Gorazde where did you go?

 7        A.   We spent four or five days in Gorazde, and since we were already

 8     at war with the Serbs over there in Visegrad, Hadza Afendic, president of

 9     the Gorazde municipality, had begun talks about the division of Gorazde

10     into the Serb and the Bosniak parts.  We were terrified that this might

11     succeed and one of the men who was us had his own private bus, so we went

12     by that bus to Sarajevo via Sokolac, Han Pijesak, and Golovi.

13        Q.   Upon arrival in Sarajevo, were you at one point engaged into the

14     army?

15        A.   Well, when I came there, there were already barricades in

16     Sarajevo.  At Pofalici, there was a Bosniak barricade, then a Serbian

17     roadblock.  Everything was already prepared for war.  It was not long

18     before military units began to be formed, so I had to join one of them.

19        Q.   Would you tell the Court how it came that you were inducted into

20     the army when you arrived at Sarajevo.

21        A.   This relative of mine -- should you tell the name or not?

22        Q.   At this moment, as far as we are concerned, it's not necessary;

23     but if you need to mention him by name, we can go into private session.

24        A.   I don't mind.  Everybody knows that in Sarajevo anyway.  That

25     relative of mine told me that a new unit was being established around the

Page 42649

 1     Presidency by the name of Biseri, that it was a bit safer, I would not be

 2     over there where the criminals were, so I agreed and joined.  I only

 3     later learned that this unit was called Biseri, and I was practically one

 4     of the first to join that school.

 5        Q.   Would you tell the Court what were the tasks of that unit,

 6     Biseri, that you joined.

 7        A.   Our first assignment was to defend the members of the Presidency

 8     and the building, that is, to guard the building and all the members of

 9     the Presidency and some other VIPs while they were in Sarajevo.  That is

10     to say, every member of the Presidency had security provided at home,

11     security during movement, and the building of the Presidency was guarded

12     non-stop.  And when Alija was away and in view of the fact that the unit

13     consisted mainly of athletic young men who knew karate and martial-arts -

14     and I was the oldest among them - they were trying to pick out handsome,

15     athletic, young men.  And when Alija travelled, he was guarded by men who

16     were in special services even before the war.  The commander was --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the name of the

18     commander, and could the counsel please turn off his microphone when the

19     witness is speaking.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please repeat the name of the

21     commander you just referred to.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Haris Lukovac [phoen].

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Would you tell the Court where was the command post of your unit

25     and your command post?

Page 42650

 1        A.   Just under the Presidency, about 200 metres from the Presidency,

 2     there was a school - it used to be a school for teachers - nowadays it's

 3     a high school.  In that high school very close to the Presidency, we used

 4     the whole ground floor or the whole first floor, all the classrooms.

 5        Q.   Would you tell the Court in greater detail - because we are not

 6     all from Sarajevo - what municipality of Sarajevo was that?

 7        A.   I believe it is the centre municipality.  I don't know exactly

 8     where the boundary lies between old town and the centre, but everybody

 9     knows the Presidency building.

10        Q.   Thank you.  How many men did you your unit number?

11        A.   Roughly - I repeat roughly - around 120, with the proviso that 70

12     were always engaged in the duties that I just explained.  The rest were

13     cooks, doctors, dentists, and there were some members who were not in the

14     unit at all but there were some prominent citizens and to protect them

15     from being mobilised by Uka or Celo or Caco, they had our ID cards as

16     some sort of protection.  And about 70 men were engaged in those tasks,

17     and from time to time, we went to Dobrinja to hold the line together with

18     Vikic's units.

19        Q.   Where did you personally serve, in which buildings did you work

20     as a security man for the members of the Presidency and

21     Alija Izetbegovic?

22        A.   At first, just around the Presidency, mostly at the lower gate

23     facing Skenderija; most of the time I was there.  When Alija's apartment

24     was shelled, then, for security reasons, they moved Alija to the building

25     of that central bank or the national bank or whatever it's called; and

Page 42651

 1     from then on, I spent most of my time there or took turns between the

 2     Presidency and the bank, depending on where Alija was.

 3        Q.   At that time, in 1992, where was the family of Mr. Izetbegovic?

 4        A.   When he moved to the bank, his wife was with him still, and there

 5     was his son Bakir and his son-in-law Jasmin.  But about seven or ten

 6     days, his wife went to join their daughter in Turkey, so his son Bakir

 7     and his son-in-law Jasmin stayed there until the end of the war.

 8        Q.   For what reason did Mr. Izetbegovic, his son, and son-in-law live

 9     in the premises of the central bank?

10        A.   Well, because a shell landed where his flat was, whether by

11     accident or because it was a deliberate hit, we don't know.  Anyway, he

12     had to move -- he to move anyway and it was thought that the central bank

13     building was safe because it was very well guarded.

14        Q.   Would you tell us, what did that place in the central bank where

15     Mr. -- Alija Izetbegovic lived look like?

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Page 42652

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20        Q.   [No interpretation]

21        A.   About seven or ten hours, it depended on how long it took him to

22     do certain things.  Sometimes it was possible to communicate with someone

23     else over the Motorola.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

25             MR. WEBER:  I'm just seeing on the transcript that we might not

Page 42653

 1     have been receiving interpretation for a part of that answer.  I don't

 2     know if that was -- a full answer.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's -- could we move into private session.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises.  The microphone was

 5     switched off for a few seconds.

 6                           [Private session]

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Page 42654











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Page 42655

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 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Witness, could you tell the Court, during the period that you

11     served in the premises of the national bank --

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, before we move on, there was still the

13     outstanding matter of the lack of interpretation from page 11, line 19.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you're right.  Mr. -- you're not following

15     the -- I don't know whether you're following the transcript,

16     Mr. Stojanovic, but there is an issue about a couple of seconds no

17     translation.  Let me just find it again.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me see.  What started as your question but

20     seems to have moved into the answer of the witness, there was no

21     interpretation.

22             Mr. Stojanovic, are you able to find where it is?  It's page 11,

23     line 19.  Could you repeat what you asked where the witness -- at least

24     part of his answer was that -- well, gave some details about

25     apparently -- or how long he was there and whether there was any

Page 42656

 1     communication by Motorola.

 2             Could you please repeat what you asked there.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  With your

 4     leave, I would request that we move into private session again so that I

 5     can mention what failed to be interpreted.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

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Page 42657











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Page 42658

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 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Sir, could you tell the Court while you were performing your

 9     duties during that period of time, which officials, politicians, members

10     of the military, police officials did you meet in the premises of the

11     national bank?  Which of these officials or these individuals would go to

12     visit Mr. Izetbegovic?

13        A.   Well, there was Sefer Halilovic from the military and Mustafa

14     Hajlagovic.  Ismet Bajic from the police would go there; he was the chief

15     of the municipality in the old town.  Avdo Hebib would also go; Reis as

16     well, he was there more than anyone else.  More frequently than anyone

17     else.  At the beginning, for about a month or so, Stevan Kljuic would

18     also go there.  He stopped going there later.  I assume did he not agree

19     with the policies that were being pursued, but in any event he stopped

20     going there.

21        Q.   You mentioned --

22        A.   And there was Avdo Hebib.  I didn't mention him.  He was the

23     right-hand man for everything.  He was an advisor and so on and so forth.

24        Q.   You mentioned that Reis was among the people whom you mentioned.

25     Could you tell the Court who is Reis.

Page 42659

 1        A.   He was the head of the Islamic Community for Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina; that's what he was at the time.  Alija was a fairly

 3     religious man, so Reis exerted a significant influence on him.  Alija

 4     wouldn't do anything without first asking Reis about it.

 5        Q.   When performing your duties, did you ever have an opportunity to

 6     hear the conversations that Mr. Izetbegovic had with his guests in the

 7     premises of the national bank?

 8        A.   Well, they didn't try to conceal anything from me - they had no

 9     reason to do so - so I could hear every word that was said there.  That

10     room is immediately adjacent to the other room.  It was all within a

11     circumference of 5 or 6 metres, so it was possible to always hear

12     everything very clearly.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you also provide security for Mr. Izetbegovic

14     outside the premises of the national bank?

15        A.   Yes, I did, in the building of the Presidency.  I also often

16     provided security when he went out to have a walk in the park.  There was

17     a little park in front of the Presidency.  It was sheltered from shells

18     and everything else so that it was a good place to go for a walk, and

19     whenever he didn't have any visits or meetings in the Presidency, he

20     would go for a walk in the park, sometimes on his own, sometimes with

21     other people.

22        Q.   When you would escort Mr. Izetbegovic on such occasions, were you

23     in a position to hear the conversations that he had with his associates

24     who were out for a walk with him?

25        A.   Well, I had to be able to see what was happening 2 or 3 metres

Page 42660

 1     away from him, never further.  That was the kind of work that was

 2     involved.  I had to observe the area that was about 2 or 3 metres around

 3     him.

 4        Q.   From such a distance, from a distance of 2 or 3 metres, was it

 5     possible for you to hear the conversations that he was having with his

 6     associates?

 7        A.   Yes, it was.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  In the 1992 -- in 1992 and 1993, during this

 9     war-time-period, were you aware of the war-time situation in the city of

10     Sarajevo itself?

11        A.   Yes.  You have to hear about such things.  Of course.

12        Q.   Were you in a position to observe the sort of weapons, equipment,

13     and artillery pieces that the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina had at its

14     disposal in Sarajevo?

15        A.   I didn't see any big guns.  I do know that -- well, initially,

16     there weren't many weapons, the special police, the Territorial Defence

17     had some weapons, usually small-calibre weapons.  I only had 17 bullets

18     in the clip for my automatic rifle, so there wasn't much available as far

19     as weapons are concerned.  I did see two tanks, however; everyone knows

20     about them.  UNPROFOR knows -- or knew about them too.  It was between

21     Leskici and another place.  There were two tunnels.  There were two

22     tracks one track was for the traffic, and those two tanks were hiding in

23     those two tunnels but they didn't open fire very often.  But they would

24     do on occasion.  They would fire a shell or two and then retreat because

25     they were exposed on all sides, so the Serbs could have spotted them and

Page 42661

 1     retaliated.  So it wasn't possible for them to be very active.

 2        Q.   At one point in time you said up until the Marsalka fell.  What

 3     do you mean when you say the fall of the Marsalka,what does that mean?

 4        A.   Well, when the Serbs surrendered the Marsal Tito barracks we

 5     would refer to the fall of the Marsalka to refer to the barracks that had

 6     fallen.  Then there was agreement according to which they weren't allowed

 7     to carry weapons and ammunition --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 9             MR. WEBER:  I'm sorry and if I'm just missing then it's -- my

10     apologies --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. WEBER:  -- but I don't see that reference.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you referred to the witness having

14     said "until the Marsalka fell."  Where do we see that?  Where did the

15     witness say so?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it doesn't appear

17     in the English interpretation, but on page 19, lines 9 to 17, it is in

18     that portion of the transcript that he mentioned this in the B/C/S

19     version.  This is why I wanted to clarify the matter.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it indeed doesn't appear.  Whether the witness

21     said it or not is ...

22             Could you tell us where exactly then it fits into -- because

23     usually if some portions are left out, then we find a sign in the

24     transcript that it's not complete.  Could you tell us where the witness

25     said it?  Because I see two such signs, one after "I only had 17

Page 42662

 1     bullets" -- well, logic requires some inventivity to put it there.  And

 2     the next is "so there wasn't much available as far as weapons are

 3     concerned."  And then the witness then moved on, talking about two tanks.

 4             Was it there that the witness said it?

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it is after

 6     he said that there were not many weapons until the Marsalka fell.  I

 7     think it was page 16 -- line 16, page 19.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  It's -- we'll move on for the time being, and

 9     perhaps it could be verified so that we have -- do the -- does the

10     English booth have any recollection as to anything said about Marsalka

11     falling.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter was not able to hear the

13     witness mention Marsalka but did hear the witness mention something that

14     appeared to be a name of the street, but a name that the interpreter did

15     not recognise.  The interpreter also notes that the witness mumbles a bit

16     and it is not always easy to discern what he is saying.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll then invite him to try to clearly

18     pronounce his words.

19             I leave it to the parties whether we want to verify the original

20     audio on the matter.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I

23     asked these additional questions in order to verify the transcript.

24        Q.   And now, Witness, I would like to put the following question to

25     you.  While you were in Sarajevo, during that period of time, did you

Page 42663

 1     ever have an opportunity of noticing mortars being used by the Army of

 2     Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 3        A.   Every units had at least three or four mortars, those were light

 4     weapons, very mobile weapons.  They said that by the post office they had

 5     two guns, but I didn't see or hear them in action.  As for the mortars,

 6     yes, they all had them with the exception of our unit because we did not

 7     need them.

 8        Q.   Did you have occasion to see those mobile units being used; and

 9     how did this function, if you did see them in action?

10        A.   Well, quite simply, they would go to the cross-roads, close off

11     the cross-roads, then the mortar would be mounted on a sort of trailer;

12     and then it would fire from the trailer for five or six minutes, and then

13     they would flee.  The cross-roads would be opened up again.  The Serbs

14     would notice where fire had come from.  They would retaliate for about

15     three times, about three times, and they would retaliate three times more

16     strongly than necessary.  And then you would have victims.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, how often did you see this happen,

18     Witness?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On one occasion -- perhaps twice,

20     because on one occasion, when I was with my van I had to wait for a while

21     at a certain location -- but everyone knew about it.  People discussed

22     such things quite openly.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Where was that when you observed it yourself?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At Marin Dvor, by the cross-roads

25     near the technical school and in the direction of the Marsal Tito

Page 42664

 1     barracks, towards the railway station.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Towards the underpass.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Another question:  You earlier told us about two

 5     tanks which were not frequently fired.  How often you yourself did see

 6     them firing?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see it with my own eyes

 8     firing, but I saw them two or three times getting out of the tunnel,

 9     igniting, moving.  But the people who were serving close to that

10     location, they said, They don't have much ammunition.  They fire two or

11     three shells and then go back in.  I never saw a tank fire, but I saw the

12     tank themselves several times because they have to be started up

13     regularly because when they stand idle for too long, they became

14     inoperative.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me -- one second, please.  So if you say:  But

16     they didn't open fire very often, they would do so on occasion they would

17     fire a shell or two and then retreat, that's not what you personally

18     observed?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You therefore also did not observe the retaliation

21     fire as a result of that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you be very carefully distinguish between

24     what you saw yourself and what, as you said, was common knowledge or

25     knowledge of your colleagues, because you've presented it for a fact,

Page 42665

 1     whereas I do understand that you're telling us that you heard this from

 2     others that had happened.  Would you make a clear distinction between the

 3     two always about what you saw with your own eyes and what you were told

 4     by others.

 5             Please proceed.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  It's time for the break anyhow.

 8             Witness, we'll --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I just finish in answer to you?

10             Wherever we were in Sarajevo, it was a maximum of 500-, 600-metre

11     distance.  You would always hear.  If something big fired from this side,

12     you would hear that it's a major weapon.  And there were two tanks there

13     so you would knew -- so you would know there was tanks.  And again, when

14     the Chetniks would fire back from Poljine, you would also hear it when it

15     hit Kosevo hill.  You would know that ten or 12 shells in one go.  You

16     couldn't miss it.  It was again 500 to 600 metres away at most.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You were never further away than 500, 600 metres

18     when you heard a shell being fired?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I am talking about now, it's

20     all in the circle Kosevo hill-Bascarsija-Presidency-Skenderija-Pofalici.

21     It's a parameter of about 500, 600 metres.  That's the circle in which I

22     moved with corresponding visibility.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you telling us that Pofalici and, for example,

24     Bascarsija are not more than 5-, 600 metres away, the one from the other?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, but the Presidency is in the

Page 42666

 1     middle.  So 500, 600 metres away from Pofalici, 5- or 600 metres to

 2     Bascarsija.  That's what I'm trying to say.  It was a very narrow circle

 3     in which the Bosniaks were able to move.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  We'll take break.  We have to turn

 5     into ...

 6             One second, one second.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In order to allow you to leave the courtroom,

 9     we'll have the blinds down, and they'll stay down until we resume so that

10     you can enter the courtroom again.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you may follow the usher.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at five minutes to 11.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We are in open session but the curtains are still

17     down.  We wait for the witness to enter the courtroom and then the

18     curtains will be drawn up, and we'll immediately proceed.

19             Perhaps, meanwhile, Mr. Stojanovic, are we on track, as far as

20     timing is concerned?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think so, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's good to hear.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The curtains may be pulled up again, and we'll

Page 42667

 1     continue.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Sir, the next thing I would like to ask you to tell the Court is

 5     whether you had occasion to see whether the weaponry of the Army of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina included anti-aircraft guns known as PATs and PAMs?

 7        A.   Every units had a couple of those except our unit because we

 8     didn't need them.  We had one, in fact, but we gave it to Juka Prazina

 9     and he gave us in exchange some small-arms.  That was right at the

10     beginning of the war.

11        Q.   Did you have occasion to see whether the Army of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina inside the city had sniper weapons?

13        A.   Yes, there were ten or 15 snipers distributed across various

14     units, and in the end they established a platoon consisting of young men

15     who were marksmen before the war or who are expert huntsmen and who knew

16     these weapons.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Can I ask you again some clarification.  You said:

18     "Every unit had a couple of those," and you were referring to PATs and

19     PAMs.  How many units were there?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to clear one thing up.  I

21     didn't mean that every unit had snipers.  PAMs and PATs are one thing and

22     snipers another thing.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm talking exclusively about PAMs and PATs.  You

24     said every units had a couple of them.  How many units were there?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment all the units were

Page 42668

 1     led by former criminals:  Juka Prazina, Celo Bajramovic 1, then the

 2     second Celo --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking you how many units you were referring to,

 4     not who was commanding them.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm telling you most men

 6     rallied around these criminal, five or six, what do I know.  Some had

 7     smaller units in municipalities such as the Green Berets in Bascarsija,

 8     who did not take orders from anyone and who were active only on their own

 9     terrain.  So as for the exact number of these units --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... yes, please

11     proceed, because you're now coming to the answer.

12             THE WITNESS:  I really don't know the exact number of the units

13     because every local community had its own unit.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And did you see these PAMs or PATs with all those

15     units or is it that you heard about them having such PAMs or PATs?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, since I was issued with the

17     van to deliver bread and other supplies for Biseri, I moved a lot around

18     other units as well, so I saw a lot of it with my own eyes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But whether every of those units, not even knowing

20     how many units there were, had them, you can confirm that or do you say,

21     Well, I do not fully know but I saw many of them?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if I don't know how many

23     units there were -- maybe there were units that I don't know and didn't

24     have those weapons.  But let's say that I know a lot of units who --

25     which had PATs and PAMs.

Page 42669

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   If you know, if you have first-hand knowledge, from where did

 4     these sniper units and sniper rifles shoot from the city of Sarajevo

 5     against the positions of the enemy army?

 6        A.   First of all, I must say in that special sniper unit, there were

 7     ten or 15 men.  I didn't hear officially who their commander was, so I

 8     assumed they were directly under the command of Sefer Halilovic.  They

 9     were made up of men from different units.  Most of all, they fired from

10     the building of the -- of the assembly which covered most of Grbavica and

11     the Jewish cemetery along the separation line and all the way down, and

12     the military hospital from which they shot in the direction of the Jewish

13     cemetery with PAMs.  The military hospital was not used above the fourth

14     floor; the rest, on top, was only for military purposes.

15        Q.   Did you have occasion to follow domestic and foreign media

16     coverage of the fighting around Sarajevo?

17        A.   Everyone moved around the Presidency every day, so you couldn't

18     avoid contact with them.  Not necessarily talking to them, but we had to

19     see them and when the members of the Presidency were going into the

20     building.  Yes, there were a lot of reporters, and most of them provided

21     rather positive coverage of the Bosniak side.

22             If I really have to tell you this, Alija Izetbegovic gave it a

23     lot of attention, and I believe this media war was the real defeat of the

24     Serbian side because they did not communicate with the journalists.  When

25     some of the journalists tried to enter the Serbian part, they would be

Page 42670

 1     turned back.  And, from what I heard, they were even mistreated a bit at

 2     these separation lines, so the journalists sided, most of them, with

 3     Izetbegovic, with us.  And when they reported, they reported with quite a

 4     lot of bias.  And there was an order that journalists must not miss

 5     anything, must not suffer any shortage.  We provided all the -- that we

 6     could, even things that were a luxury at the time.  In our language, the

 7     expression is "bird's milk."

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness, do you understand or read the -- any

 9     foreign language, foreign to you?

10             THE WITNESS: [No verbal response]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that you never took notice yourself

12     from any of the foreign media reporting?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not, but at that time nobody

14     did.  At the time that I am talking about, there was no television, there

15     was no electricity, there was no water, there was no radio, there were no

16     newspapers.  So nobody could know any of these things at that time, but

17     later --

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, you've

19     answered my question, that could you not follow that --

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I did understand that you said that you do not

22     speak or understand -- read or understand any foreign language.  That's

23     missing apparently from the transcript.  I didn't follow it.

24             Witness, so if you say that journalists were always biased, it's

25     not because you read their reports as far as the foreign media are

Page 42671

 1     concerned?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've been telling you, in

 3     Sarajevo nobody was able to follow foreign media at the time.  There were

 4     no computers at the time - there were only starting to appear - and there

 5     was no electricity.

 6             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, I'm

 7     asking you this because your comment on the quality of the media

 8     reporting, whereas, at the same time, you're telling us that you were not

 9     able to follow it.  And even you said no one was able to follow it.  Are

10     you certain about that no one in Sarajevo noticed or observed any of the

11     foreign media reporting?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what you're asking, but I'm

13     telling you I didn't know it directly; but many times between them, these

14     officials held talks in which they confirmed that the journalists were

15     doing a good job for us.  That's the point.  I, myself, did not see it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  My next question is:  Could you give us an example

17     of -- you said all the foreign media were not allowed to enter the

18     Serb-held territory.  They were sent back.  Are you certain that this

19     always happened, and what's the basis of your knowledge?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That happened non-stop.  It didn't

21     happen once, on one day.  It happened all the time.  If, for instance, a

22     delegation tried to cross over to their side, they were turned back and

23     they complained.  These complaints passed from one instance to another.

24     That -- that happened during two years.  Every journalist would tell the

25     same story.

Page 42672

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  When you're talking about the delegation, could you

 2     give us one example of where that happened, who it was?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You must have misunderstood me.

 4     It's not a delegation.  Crews of journalists, three or four reporters,

 5     together tried to cross the separation line; the Serbs turned them back.

 6     A couple of days later, a different group of journalists -- maybe I used

 7     the wrong word "delegation."  Two or three days another group tries

 8     again.  And they all say, We can't cross to the other side.  They won't

 9     let us.  But that I saw them crossing over, no, I did not.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Please proceed.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a little follow-up.

13             When they said they -- they can't cross over because they won't

14     let them, were they telling you or who were they telling?  Did you hear

15     them say so?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of the foreign journalists

17     hung around the Presidency because there was always something happening

18     there.  People from UNPROFOR were coming all the time, and there was talk

19     about it all the time.  And if there was a shooting incident -- the

20     journalists were, in any case, all the time around the Presidency and in

21     small groups.  They were always talking.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I repeat my question.  Did they tell you or did

23     you hear them say they couldn't be let in?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we really have to be that

25     precise, I heard myself - I don't know how many times - when the

Page 42673

 1     interpreters were talking between themselves, we were not able to cross

 2     over to the other side, we were turned back, time and time again.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You heard the interpreters.  Thank you so much.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Sir, you mentioned units under the command of people whose names

 6     you mentioned Juko, Caco, Celo 1, and Celo 2.  Could you please tell the

 7     Court where these units under the command of the said persons were

 8     stationed?  Where were they based?

 9        A.   That can be verified very easily.  Even the UNPROFOR visited them

10     very often on their own business.  One of them was even stationed in a

11     kindergarten.  Juka Prazina was at the in Kosevo hill and Skerliceva

12     Street, which is facing the Kosevo Hospital.  The little Celo, I mean

13     Delalic -- no, Bajramovic, he had a base in a place called -- near the

14     cathedral.  The commander at Alipasino Polje was also in a kindergarten.

15     All these units were located in kindergartens.  So when the Serb

16     artillery would start firing, the journalists would report that a

17     kindergarten was targeted, without adding that Juka Prazina was in that

18     kindergarten or his troops, so the report was not complete.  They

19     reported only what was convenient for them.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I appreciate there's a lot of general

22     testimony going on, but I just want to express the concern that it's

23     being offered without any time-frames which could be relevant.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, perhaps you could take that point

25     and see whether the Chamber will be provided with more precise details.

Page 42674

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Witness, you've heard this.  Let me just ask you:  When you give

 3     us such an answer about the locations of the commands of the said units,

 4     which time-period do you mean?  When were these units located in

 5     kindergartens?

 6        A.   From the beginning of the war until the time when I got out.

 7     Except for Juka Prazina -- because there occurred a conflict between

 8     those criminals, and Alija told them they have to make up and accept

 9     command or take their loot and take it out of the city.

10             I'll continue later, but let me just answer this question.  As

11     long as they were in Sarajevo, they were in those buildings.  You can

12     check that anywhere.  It's even in the UNPROFOR reports.   The whole time

13     they were in Sarajevo.  When Juka Prazina left Sarajevo, this place where

14     he used to be in Skerliceva Street a unit came there that later replace

15     Biseri as the security detail of the Presidency.

16             As far as I know, the two years that I was there, none of them

17     moved out of those buildings, except for those who were forced to go.

18        Q.   Do you have any information about the name of the unit of

19     Juka Prazina and their number?  Was it a brigade or a battalion?

20        A.   There were about 5.000 men with one of them and another 5.000

21     with Celo, the others had less, 2- or 3.000.  Celo, the other Celo, had

22     200 or 300 men with him.  I don't know if that was a battalion or what

23     kinds of unit, but each of them pursued their own policies; so Sarajevo

24     was very often blocked because of their internal clashes.  Every now and

25     then, Bascarsija would be blocked by one of them.  They would put up

Page 42675

 1     barricades, and that lasted for six months, maybe even a year.  And then

 2     later on, under the pressure of the international community - who

 3     insisted that they had to get rid of criminals and also because the army

 4     got stronger in the meantime and were able to deal with them together

 5     with the police - in any case, Alija called them all to the meeting,

 6     saying that they should either put themselves at the command of the army

 7     or take their loot and go.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I would like to put a question to

 9     the witness.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud.  Judge Fluegge just announced

12     that he would like to put a question to the witness.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In your previous answer, Witness, you said:

14     "It's even in the UNPROFOR reports."

15             Did you read UNPROFOR reports yourself?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not read those reports,

17     but you have to bear in mind that the little bit of Sarajevo that

18     remained in -- on lower ground, there was constant movement.  You would

19     see where the UNPROFOR was going, where our police were going.  It was

20     such a small bit of the city that when you are up and about, you always

21     see.  But the reports, I didn't read.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Why did you say it's even in the UNPROFOR

23     reports, if you don't know anything about it?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that, at the time, the

25     UNPROFOR recorded everything, the whereabouts of each unit.  They

Page 42676

 1     recorded every shell that was fired.  If a military unit was somewhere,

 2     they would go, inspect, and see who was there.  They had records for

 3     everything.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Previous translation continues] ... and,

 5     therefore, you just conclude that it must have been reported by UNPROFOR

 6     as well.

 7             Another question:  You said the international community insisted

 8     that they --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, no speaking aloud.  You've done that now

10     two, three times over the last ten minutes.  Next time it will have

11     consequences.  You know exactly how to consult with counsel, and full

12     opportunity it given to you to do that, but under these conditions.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, you said the international community

14     insisted that these units had to get -- that the -- that the BiH had to

15     get rid of criminals and also because the army got stronger in the

16     meantime.

17             How did you know what the international community requested?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't really understand

19     everything you said.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then I repeat.  In one of your previous answers,

21     you said:

22             "And then, later on, under the pressure of the international

23     community, who insisted that they had to get rid of criminals," and so on

24     and so forth.

25             What -- how do you know that the international community --

Page 42677

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear the international

 2     community [indiscernible].  At all the meetings, were they insisting on

 3     this?  All the generals who arrived said that the crime had to come to an

 4     end.  They exerted pressure on Alija.  They wanted him to have them

 5     removed from Sarajevo or to have them integrated within military units.

 6     They would then be given ranks and therefore they would also have certain

 7     responsibilities and they would then be placed under Joint Command.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you -- were you present when international

 9     generals, foreign generals, were talking to Mr. Izetbegovic?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't present.  But I was

11     present when politicians from our area would comment on the matter and

12     say that it was perhaps time.  They said that a lot of pressure was being

13     put on them, that it was necessary to start removing the criminals.  This

14     was a subject that was constantly discussed on a daily basis.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this clarification.

16             Mr. Stojanovic.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Witness, could you just be a little briefer in your answers.  I

19     will try to put very direct questions to you.

20             At the time that you are now referring to, who was the commander

21     of the 1st Corps of the ABiH in Sarajevo?

22        A.   I think it was Talijan and then Karavelic came later.

23        Q.   Did you know someone called Jovo Divjak?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   Did you ever have the opportunity of seeing whether he went to

Page 42678

 1     see Mr. Izetbegovic during that period of time?

 2        A.   I didn't mention Divjak in my statement, but I even had personal

 3     contact with him, although very brief.  I would greet him, ask him how he

 4     was, whether he was all right.  He went to the Presidency quite often,

 5     but it was said that Divjak and Stjepan Sibak, a Croat, were the most

 6     competent officers in the ABiH, at least among the officers who were in

 7     Sarajevo at the time.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell the Court whether you had the

 9     opportunity during the two war-time years that you spent in Sarajevo to

10     leave the town of Sarajevo?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Could you please tell the Court how --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  There's been many references to a period of time and

15     now there's a reference to the two war-time years he spent in Sarajevo.

16     If we could just -- my impression right now is that that's 1992 and 1993,

17     but I don't know if that's clear from the record.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the two war-time years could you

19     please specify them.  Apparently the witness left Sarajevo, but what

20     years did you have on your mind?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Witness, to the best of your recollection, when exactly did you

23     work and stay in Sarajevo?

24        A.   I left Sarajevo towards the end of May or in the middle of May -

25     roughly speaking - 1992.  The Biseri unit was dismantled at the time.  A

Page 42679

 1     different unit arrived, or was to arrive --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   For the sake of the transcript, could you please repeat the year

 5     when your unit was dismantled and when you left Sarajevo.

 6        A.   April, May -- we started in 1990, perhaps a little earlier, but

 7     according to the documents, when we were first given our official duty,

 8     it was April, May 1990 up until -- well, at the time no one really knew

 9     the dates very well apart from those who kept diaries, but it was up

10     until 1992, May 1992.  That is when I left as authorised by the

11     commander.

12        Q.   I will show a document to you.  We will then go through it

13     together, and then I will put some questions to you.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the following

15     document in the e-court system, please.  1D --

16             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Stojanovic,

17     the answers are not consistent in any way.  Before you show a document to

18     the witness, could we first try to find out exactly what the witness's

19     recollection is without looking at the documents.

20             You said you left Sarajevo, you were talking about May, April.

21     You sometimes mentioned 1990; at other moments, you mentioned 1992.  When

22     did you -- would you please wait for my question.

23             When exactly did you leave Sarajevo?  What month?  What year?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May 1992 is when I left (redacted)

25     unit.  That is when I left Sarajevo.

Page 42680

 1             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But April --

 3             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you've answered

 4     my question.

 5             For how long did you not return, stay away from Sarajevo?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never returned again.  I spent

 7     two years during the war there, and I then went to my sister's in Germany

 8     and I didn't go back to the war.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Two years you spent there, as you said.  You spent

10     two years during the war there.  What were those years?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1980s [as interpreted] -- 1990,

12     1991, and half of the year 1993, from April or May 1990 till May 1992.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So just now to summarise, you were in Sarajevo

14     between May 1990 until April/May 1992.  You then left Sarajevo and -- if

15     you would -- if would you just wait for my full summary.  Then you left

16     Sarajevo and did not return there after that.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I do apologise - I wouldn't

18     want to leave this unclarified.  You said 1992, April/May, but it's very

19     important for me for it to be known that it was May.  Because something

20     happened in April that, amongst other things, made me leave in May.

21             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... could I ask you

22     one --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't want it to appear as if I

24     left before that event in April.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that also mean that on from May 1992, you were

Page 42681

 1     not functioning anymore as a personal security detail for

 2     Mr. Izetbegovic?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever see him --

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever see him directly after May 1992?

 7             I think you were nodding no, but could you please confirm in

 8     words --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said "no," but very softly.  I do

10     apologise.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

15     have a look at a document in e-court, 65 ter 1D05187, without it being

16     broadcast, with your leave.  1D05187.  And I would like to stress the

17     fact that it should not be broadcast.

18             Your Honours, we have an unofficial translation of this document

19     into B/C/S, and I'll ask the witness --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We'd like to see the English on our screens as well.

21     Yes.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

24        Q.   In this document that you can see in front of you, sir - do have

25     a look at it, it's on the screen - in relation to the question about your

Page 42682

 1     status, the Prosecutor was told that you were a member of the sector for

 2     the protection of buildings and for the protection of individuals in the

 3     Ministry of the Interior in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina from

 4     the 20th of May, 1992, to the 12th of May, 1994.  It says that you were a

 5     member of the reserve forces and that you had the rank of a sergeant as

 6     of the 1st of September, 1993.  The name of the unit was Biseri.  And

 7     during the war-time-period in ABH this unit had the duty of protecting

 8     the president of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 9             Can you see this, sir?  So today you are telling us here or,

10     rather, on page 39, line 3, of the transcript you say that you were in

11     this unit from May 1990 until May 1992.  In this document, it's from

12     May 1992 until the 12th of May, 1994.  Can you tell us whether this

13     document is right?  Was that the two-year period that you spent in your

14     unit, from 1992 to 1994?

15        A.   [No verbal response]

16        Q.   When did the war in Bosnia begin?

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... witness.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   When did the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina begin?

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you should wait for the answer.

21     You put a long question and wait for the answer.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And Mr. Weber was on his feet before the

23     answer was given.  It may be that he wanted to object.  You did not?

24             MR. WEBER:  No.  I was just going to say what Judge Fluegge just

25     said.

Page 42683

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that we should wait for the answer.

 2             Witness, could you please -- do you still remember the question?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1990.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   When you say "1990," what do you have in mind?  What happened in

 6     1990?

 7        A.   Well, the war in Bosnia.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

10     tender this document, 1D05187.

11             MR. WEBER:  I still don't think that we have [Microphone not

12     activated] -- I still don't think we have the answer to that question

13     about the veracity of the document, but anyway we don't object to the

14     admission of the document.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It follows.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  And counsel said:  Under seal, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number would be ...?

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit D1388, under seal, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted, under seal.

21             Witness, could I ask you the following.  You said earlier that we

22     should not forget that you didn't leave in April but it was in

23     May because you remember exactly what triggered, apparently, your

24     departure from Sarajevo.  Could you tell us what that was then exactly

25     that triggered you to leave Sarajevo?

Page 42684

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Markale.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But that was not in 1992, was it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Markale I.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was that in 1992?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then a follow-up question.  What exactly was

 7     it, then, that the Markale event triggered you to leave Sarajevo?  What

 8     was it?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well ... I'm still going over the

10     dates.  I'll get there.  I was present when there were discussions about

11     how Markale should be dealt with, set up.  I know what took place, and I

12     know about the number of victims, the final number of victims, so I

13     was -- discussed it, given that this unit -- well, given that a different

14     unit was being formed for the protection of individuals and buildings.

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I then ask you ...

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I then ask you:  Was that a week after

21     Markale?  Was that a month after the Markale event?  Was it three months

22     after the Markale event?  Do you remember what triggered exactly you to

23     decide to ask to ask to be allowed to --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a month, roughly speaking.

25     You must understand, it wasn't just one thing.  Things accumulated, there

Page 42685

 1     was this, there was that.  A thousand things accumulated.  And then

 2     finally, if I didn't have the commander's favour I would have had to

 3     remain there, whether I wanted to or not, but I was in the commander's

 4     favour.  Given everything that had accumulated -- well, I asked him,

 5     Well, will you let me go?  He said I will.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it then approximately one month after Markale

 7     you were allowed to leave and that you left?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, about a month, month and a

 9     half.  Really, don't ask me about dates because I'll always have doubts.

10     Whenever you mention one date, I'll have certain doubts.  It was a month,

11     month and a half, something like that; it wasn't shorter, but it wasn't

12     really longer.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Earlier you insisted that we should properly

14     understand that it was not April but it was May - so you were insisting

15     very much on the month - when you left.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know -- well, yeah, because in

17     April that slaughter took place at the market.  If I had left in April, I

18     wouldn't have been there when that happened, so it was May.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And that triggered your recollection.  So you say

20     since the Markale incident happened in April and since I left

21     approximately one month after that, it must have been May and could not

22     have been April.  Is that well understood?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is more or less correct.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What is less correct, apart from the more correct?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is important is for everything

Page 42686

 1     to be correct.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Stojanovic, we are close to the time where we take a break.

 4     If you have a few questions, do not hesitate to put them to the witness;

 5     if you have a longer series of questions, then perhaps we should take the

 6     break first.

 7             One second.

 8             I leave it in your hands.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be the right

10     time to have a break, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, Witness.  We'd like to see you

12     back, but you should wait for a second until the curtains are down.  And

13     we will resume with the curtains down at quarter past 12.00.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we'll resume at quarter past

16     12.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

20     courtroom.  Once he's in, we'll draw the curtains up.

21             Any problem with the translation?  If so, could you please

22     verify.

23             Is it resolved, Mr. -- not yet.

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's now resolved.

Page 42687

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The curtains can be drawn up.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can we continue, Witness?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Before the break, if you remember, we mentioned the Markale

 9     events.  My question is as follows:  When performing your official

10     security duties for Mr. Izetbegovic, did you ever have the opportunity of

11     hearing Markale being mentioned before the incident that you referred to?

12        A.   Yes, Markale was discussed quite often.

13        Q.   Could you please tell the Court what you personally heard about

14     Markale.

15        A.   Well, first of all, if I may, I would like to provide a more

16     detailed explanation because I can't simply ...

17             MR. WEBER:  We just have a -- a -- we're going into the

18     substance, and it's not -- I don't think it's -- some things are quite

19     that clear at this point, but I don't know what the witness is going to

20     say.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Neither do we know what he is going to say.

22             Witness, could you please answer the question.  The question was

23     what you personally heard about Markale.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, if we're going to

25     talk about Markale, we have to explain why all this was done for Markale,

Page 42688

 1     according to them.  Sarajevo had been at war for two years, and

 2     militarily was in a weak position -- in a weaker position, and both Alija

 3     and Reis thought that --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please tell us what you heard

 5     about it.  We don't need the background explanation.  This Chamber has

 6     heard a lot of evidence about various views on what happened in Markale.

 7     We'd like to hear from you what you heard about this.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is something I heard too.

 9     This isn't a conclusion I have drawn, but if I don't tell you about this,

10     about what happened before Markale, about why it was necessary to do what

11     was done at Markale, according to Izetbegovic's reasoning, Reis's

12     reasoning, and the reasoning of others, they were expecting military

13     intervention, and they were looking for ways of trying to bring this

14     about.  They knew - and this something that they discussed amongst

15     themselves - that they were in no position to stand up to the Serbs.

16     They knew that they would lose in the war.  So all this is something that

17     they did in order to provoke military intervention on the part of the

18     international community.  The first time that --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  These are all rather sweeping statements.  What

20     meetings did you attend or where did you hear that, this from whom

21     exactly and in the presence of -- whom were there, and then what did they

22     exactly say?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but I really have

24     to insist.  It's easy for me to say these things --

25             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Witness, I have

Page 42689

 1     to insist that you should answer the question.  You learned apparently

 2     things about Markale.  That's what I understand.  Who did meet?  What was

 3     said?  And when was it?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The meetings were going on all the

 5     time.  It was mostly the same people around the table.  Because all the

 6     major decisions were made there, not in the Presidency.  And it's very

 7     likely that none in the Presidency knew about these decisions.

 8             This is not my inference.  Reis and Alija were talking and saying

 9     that there is no other way for them to make the international community,

10     to intervene militarily, but to create a major massacre.  And before

11     that, there was talk that every day we are losing 50 to 70 men without

12     achieving any effect.  Reis repeated constantly that, As you are all

13     going to heaven anyway, it doesn't matter.  They should sacrifice

14     themselves for the right cause.  They knew that they could not resist

15     militarily, and they were looking for a way to make the international

16     community intervene militarily.  To achieve that, at the time there were

17     very few truces.  There were a couple of truces with the Serbs with a

18     lull in shelling, so there were a lot of people in the streets and most

19     of them were in the markets.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Let me stop you there, Witness, and ask you a specific question.

22             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].

24        Q.   It seems I can continue.  What did Reis Ulema say in your

25     presence to Mr. Izetbegovic?

Page 42690

 1        A.   We are losing 50 or 70 men every day anyway, and nobody hears

 2     about it and nobody cares.  If we lose 200 people, everybody will be

 3     outraged there will be an outcry, and maybe there will be an effect.  And

 4     the purpose was to provoke a foreign military intervention.

 5        Q.   What did Mr. Izetbegovic respond to this theory from Reis that

 6     you heard?

 7        A.   At first, Alija Izetbegovic was reluctant to accept this, but

 8     Reis managed to convince him very quickly that it is the right thing to

 9     do, that there is no alternative to create a unified Bosnia-Herzegovina

10     and that every sacrifice has to be made to achieve it.

11        Q.   Who, in your hearing, mentioned the possibility of an incident at

12     Markale?

13        A.   Well, that idea came from Reis, and it was carried out by

14     Sefer Halilovic and Talijan.

15        Q.   Will you tell the Court, please, how Sefer Halilovic and Talijan

16     put it into practice.

17        A.   Whether they had help from outside or --

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, the questions have gotten a little bit

20     leading and they --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes -- well, the last question is not, I think.

22             MR. WEBER:  And we --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- so therefore, we leave at this moment and we'd

24     like to hear the witness of the witness.

25             MR. WEBER:  We -- okay --

Page 42691

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. WEBER:  It's a little unclear and we've jumped, I see.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please resume your answer.  You started by

 4     saying is -- whether he had help from outside ...

 5             Would you please resume your answer from there.  It is about

 6     Halilovic and Talijan putting into practice the idea.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant their officers.  I don't

 8     know if anyone was assisting them from the officers when they were making

 9     that plan.  In any case, the two of them together put forward that plan

10     that our mortar be placed facing Spicaste Stijena, and it was known that

11     there, in Mrkovici village, the Serbs had artillery, and they fired very

12     often in that direction.  So they decided on that axis and the angle of

13     slope would be difficult to determine.  So our fire should be directed in

14     the direction they usually use, from Mrkovici village.

15             Up there, there were regularly UNPROFOR officers recording how

16     many shells landed every day.  Whether those people were less careful --

17     in any case, there was only one UNPROFOR crew there.  From their telling,

18     it was Pakistani men, but I don't really know.  And the arrangement was,

19     when they discussed that plan, Reis and Alija agreed, and they told

20     Sefer, Go ahead and do it.  And Sefer just said, Talijan will take care

21     of it.  I think Talijan, as a former JNA officer, was an artillery man.

22             And that's the whole story.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question.

24             You said:  "From their telling, it was Pakistani men," when you

25     referred to the only one UNPROFOR crew there.  Who told you that?

Page 42692

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what they said there.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Who said that?  Was it Sefer Halilovic?  Was it

 3     Talijan?  Was it Izetbegovic?  Who told you that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think -- please don't take my

 5     word for it.  I cannot swear to it.  But when he was explaining to Alija

 6     and Reis and the others the plan, how it should be carried out, I think

 7     he mentioned the Pakistani UNPROFOR men.  When they were counting shells,

 8     for some reason, they could -- and he gave no further explanation.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  When you say "he," are you talking about Talijan, or

10     were you talking about --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About Sefer, about Sefer, because

12     he was the one explaining the plan; and later he said, Talijan will take

13     care of it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And were those four persons you mentioned the only

15     ones being present during that meeting?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Among the present were Jasmin and

17     Bakir.  They were always there.  They never left Alija's side, with very

18     rare exceptions, but neither of them had any say.  They were not asked

19     for their opinion and they didn't volunteer it.  They were there, but

20     they did not participate at all.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Were these six persons the ones being present during

22     that meeting?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean Hebib?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the -- the rest --

Page 42693

 1     he was silent.  He was silent.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  He was there as well.  I think that's the seventh

 3     name I hear, but I may -- I heard Izetbegovic, Reis, Halilovic, Talijan,

 4     and the two sons of Izetbegovic.  And you now added Hebib.  Was he

 5     present as well?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  Sorry.  My mistake.

 7     He wasn't present.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a follow-up question.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My mistake, I'm really sorry.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have a question.  At which time during the day

12     took this meeting place?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, he wasn't there.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again my question.  At which time during the day

15     took this meeting place?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I really don't know.

17     It was in daylight.  Whether it was noon, or 3.00, or 4.00 p.m., I don't

18     know.  The meetings were going on all the time.  One usually remembers

19     what was said, but one doesn't look at the watch all the time.  But it

20     was day.  And these meetings were numberless.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In which room did that take place?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The room in the national bank, as I

23     described in the beginning; if I need to describe it again, it's not a

24     problem.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I wanted to know if it was in that room.  Thank

Page 42694

 1     you.

 2             Who was there first, at the beginning of the meeting?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really have no clue.  I know that

 4     Alija and I came together with Reis.  They were already there.  Now, who

 5     arrived first, I don't know.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And who arrived next?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We arrived last.  They were already

 8     there.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you stay in the same room during the meeting?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was always in the corridor, in

11     the room adjacent.  There is a very small corridor, 3 metres perhaps,

12     which is a passage to that room.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And there, did you stay or sit?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a chair I could sit down,

15     but whether I did at that moment -- I probably did.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was there --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not like with the others, a

18     lot of formality.  For instance, when you enter Tudjman's office, his

19     guards were at attention.  This was all more informal, less ceremony.

20     When they would take tea for themselves, they would bring me a cup.  He

21     wasn't a stickler for procedure, that you had to remain standing.  When

22     Alija speaks to you, he treats you as an equal.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you please describe the entrance of the room

24     where the meeting took place?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.

Page 42695

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please do so.  No, describe it with -- describe

 2     it with your own words.  Describe it with your own words -- please, when

 3     I'm speaking, don't interrupt me.  Describe it with your own words

 4     because we need it on the record.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When you go from the Presidency

 6     towards Bascarsija, you get to the building of the central bank, or call

 7     it national bank or whatever you will --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... sorry, you

 9     obviously misunderstood me.  The entrance from the corridor where you

10     have been to the room where the meeting take place.  Describe the

11     entrance, please.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, but I just wanted to say

13     that it was in a recess with a little corridor.  There is a street, the

14     main street where the tram goes, and a small side street; and when you

15     look up that street, when you turn your back to the tram station, it's to

16     the right.  To the right, there is a large garage.  Four cars were parked

17     there in the extension behind that door where we entered.  So on this

18     side of the building, when you get into that little corridor, there is an

19     entrance through the garage.  And that corridor is about 3 metres long,

20     and that's where I stayed.  And inside there was a very big room.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And between the corridor where have you been in

22     the big room where the meeting took place is there a door?  Is there an

23     entrance?  Is there a curtain?  How did it look like?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a direct entrance from that

25     corridor where I was, but they divided that big room with partitions, and

Page 42696

 1     there were beds for the three men who slept there --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You have explained that, but you are not

 3     answering my question.

 4             I have another question.  Were you the only guard at that moment,

 5     or were there other guards as well?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was one more who took turns

 7     with me, as I said in the beginning.  Let me not mention his name again.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... was this

 9     guard present during that meeting as well?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  There was always only one

11     guard.  I am only talking about what I heard.  And if Office of the

12     Prosecutor should ask the second guard about my story, God knows what he

13     heard when he was on duty.  This way, you get only half the picture from

14     what I can recount.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand that.  You have answered my

16     question.

17             My last question is:  How long did this meeting last?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An hour at most.  It's difficult to

19     say now.  It was all prepared beforehand.  It couldn't have lasted more

20     than an hour, but it's really difficult for me to say 20 years later

21     exactly.  But as the discussion went, it couldn't have lasted more than

22     an hour, an hour and a half.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You say it was all prepared beforehand.  What do

24     you mean by that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They got the assignment to organise

Page 42697

 1     it, to decide how best to carry out that mortar - what shall I call it? -

 2     mortar attack.  They had prepared it in advance, and they just came to

 3     tell Alija and Reis what they were going to do.  These two heard them out

 4     and said, All right.  Go ahead and do it properly.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And at the beginning you said Izetbegovic was

 6     first reluctant to accept the proposal by Reis.  Was that the beginning

 7     of the meeting?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  It's before all these

 9     discussions, when intersections began to be used as targets, when more

10     casualties were caused than necessary, before all these events, when

11     people were stopped at intersections -- but when one thing after another

12     started, there was less and less resistance all the time.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The proposal with respect to Markale made by Reis

14     was not during this meeting, or was it?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the beginning, when they were

16     discussing the whole strategy of it, when it was discussed that there and

17     especially in the protected areas, such as Srebrenica, a more massive

18     massacre should be caused for the international community to intervene,

19     then, in the early days, Alija had doubts.  But when things started

20     running their course and when Markale was suggested, he agreed -- he

21     didn't have any problem anymore.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means -- let me just clarify that.  At least

23     two meetings took place.  One meeting between Izetbegovic and one with --

24     and with Reis and the other one including the other persons you have

25     mentioned; correct?

Page 42698

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There could have been ten, but I

 2     was present only to what I told you.  I can only tell you what I know.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many of these meetings where this was

 4     discussed have you observed or heard personally?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Who was present during the first meeting?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Always the same people.  Always the

 8     same people.  They decided everything, and they carried out everything.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have no further questions.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] -- follow-up questions.

11             Sir, you indicated that Halilovic and Talijan implemented this

12     idea.  Were you present when they did?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not, but I was present when

14     they --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you've

16     answered my question.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't.  You can't --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... were you

19     present when they implemented the plan.  You say you were not.

20             Listen to my next question.  How do you know that they did

21     implement that plan and that it was them who did?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, that's something different.  I

23     was present when Alija approved their plan and its execution, Alija and

24     Reis.  They always spoke with one voice.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

Page 42699

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Judge Moloto, please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have explained that, and I've heard that.  I'm

 3     now taking a step further.  I'm asking you how you came to know that

 4     Halilovic and Talijan did, in fact, implement the task, the idea, because

 5     you say you were not there when they did it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second meeting, when it

 7     happened, it was all within seven days, at most.  They came to say that

 8     they had tried but it didn't work.  Perhaps they miscalculated, so the

 9     shell fell on a roof near the Markale market.  They missed only by

10     2 metres --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... can I stop

12     you, please.  You're now telling me of a meeting when they came to

13     report.  I'm asking you about when the plan that was being implemented.

14     How did you know that, in fact, they did implement the plan?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to tell you this.  They

16     organised a second meeting where I was present and they explained to Reis

17     and to --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... I appreciate

19     what you want to tell me but please answer my question first.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] -- what's wrong with

22     this microphone?

23             How did you know that it was Halilovic and Talijan who

24     implemented this plan?  You say you were not there with them when they

25     did it.

Page 42700

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Alija sent them.  That meeting

 2     finished.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you are

 4     obviously not answering my question.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to tell you there was

 6     another meeting.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They came to --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking you about another meeting.  I'm

11     asking you about the implementation of the plan.  And I'm just wanting --

12     you can tell me about the meeting later, but that's not what I'm asking

13     you.  I'd just like to know if you were not present when the --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how they knew.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... about how

16     people knew.  I'm asking you how you know that it was Halilovic and

17     Talijan who implemented the plan.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you deliberately trying to

19     confuse me?  I'm telling you quite clearly.  If you let me speak, it will

20     be clear.  But if you deliberately interrupt me, I can't tell you

21     anything.  Please listen to me at least for once.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's try again.

24             Tell me, in your own words, how you do know that Halilovic and

25     Talijan implemented this plan.

Page 42701

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the first meeting, everything

 2     was arranged; Alija authorised it and left.  On the second meeting -- at

 3     the second meeting, Talijan returned, as well as Sefer Halilovic, to

 4     submit a report to Alija; and they gave him reasons for which they were

 5     unsuccessful for which the shell had missed.  There were three meetings.

 6     I heard them submitting a report, and that is an answer to your previous

 7     question.  They came to explain the reasons for which they hadn't

 8     succeeded.  Alija said, Try again.  That was the agreement.  And then

 9     they said that they would have to wait for that UNPROFOR position with

10     that vehicle and they then left, and that was the end of the story.

11     Later we all heard about what happened at Markale, and that's it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  May I -- if I understand you well, you were present

13     when there was a report about the failed attempt, but you concluded that

14     they had implemented the plan when you heard about a successful mortar

15     round hitting the Markale market?

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about it and I saw it.  As

18     to who is responsible, you will have to draw your own conclusion.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Was there any further report in a meeting with

20     Izetbegovic once the market was hit?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

22             Even if there was meeting, it was probably held when the other

23     guard was present, so that -- I don't know that Markale was subsequently

24     discussed.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one small question, a detail again about the

Page 42702

 1     corridor of 3 metres long.

 2             If you would come from the garage, go through that corridor of

 3     3 metres long, was there a door when entering the large room?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a door only in the

 5     external wall, the main external wall.  This wasn't really a garage.  It

 6     was a sort of a makeshift garage, sort of makeshift roof had been erected

 7     over those luxury cars.  Do you understand what I'm saying?  I don't know

 8     how to explain what this gate looked like.  Just a minute, please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I just wanted to know whether you could move,

10     walking from the garage - makeshift or not - into that room without going

11     through a door; or was there a door between where the cars were parked

12     and where the room was?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a door in the external

14     wall, a reinforced metal door, because it was a bank and you know the

15     kind of doors they have.  But there was this corridor then, and then

16     there were no more doors and you would suddenly enter the room.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Where you were seated, was that before that door you

18     had you to go through to the room?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Behind.  It was linked to this

20     room, and that is where I sat on the first two occasions.  I spent two

21     shifts on the outside, and then the shelling in the vicinity intensified,

22     so Alija said, Don't stay out there, come inside, it's safer.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what you told us before.

24             Mr. Stojanovic.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll now move onto

Page 42703

 1     the next subject.

 2        Q.   Do you know the commander of the 28th Division of the ABiH,

 3     Naser Oric?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you ever meet Mr. Oric in the room for which you provided

 6     security for Mr. Izetbegovic?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   As far as you can remember, how many times did Naser Oric go to

 9     the room we have mentioned?

10        A.   I know of three times.  On one occasion, I went to fetch him in

11     Dobrinje.  I took him to the Holiday Inn; he stayed there, slept over.

12     And then on the following day, I took him from the Holiday Inn to the

13     central bank building.  I know that he came on two other occasions.

14     That's when I saw him.  As for the other occasions on which he came, I

15     don't know.  But on the other occasions, I didn't escort him.  I escorted

16     him there only on one occasion.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you personally have the opportunity of hearing

18     the conversation held between Mr. Oric and Mr. Izetbegovic?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Could you tell us what the two of them discussed and whether

21     anyone else was present at those discussions.

22        A.   Well, Reis was always there, Sefer was always there, and Talijan.

23     And these two men were also always there, but they never participated in

24     the discussions.  I'm referring to Jasmin and Bakir.  They only listened

25     to what was said.

Page 42704

 1        Q.   What was the subject of those discussions that you heard?

 2        A.   They were always discussing Srebrenica, the situation in Bosnia

 3     and Herzegovina.  They said that this situation was in no way acceptable

 4     for us, that a way had to be found to make the international community

 5     intervene and to intervene militarily to put an end to the situation.

 6     Naser was ordered to create some disorder down there, to provoke the

 7     Serbs to intensify their shelling, and the purpose of all of this was to

 8     provoke an international intervention.  That is what was considered to be

 9     imperative because we weren't having any military success, so everything

10     was being done to provoke a military intervention.

11        Q.   What sort of incidents are you referring to?  What sort of

12     incidents was the command of the 28th Division supposed to provoke?

13        A.   Well, he was given the task to form groups of three or four men

14     who could always get through the roadblocks, and he was to create as much

15     chaos as possible in the Serbian villages, to anger the Serbs, and make

16     them shell Srebrenica.  Since Srebrenica was a safe haven, that would

17     mean that these people would have to get involved.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Can I ask you one clarifying question.

19             You said you were aware of three occasions where Mr. Oric met

20     with Mr. Izetbegovic.  You said only one of them you attended.  But you

21     also told us "they were always discussing Srebrenica."

22             Could you explain to me how you could tell us that that's what

23     they always did if you are, at the same time, telling us that you were

24     only once present during such a meeting?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's a mistake, either mine or

Page 42705

 1     yours.  I was at the meeting three times.  But I only escorted him only

 2     on one occasion from Dobrinja, but I was present at the three meetings.

 3     As to whether there were other meetings, I don't know.  I also -- I was

 4     also present when discussions were held.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You said:  "As for the other occasions on which he

 6     came, I don't know."

 7             And indeed you said you escorted --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Apart from those three occasions.

 9     If there were any other occasions -- I know about three occasions, but I

10     don't know about any other occasions apart from those three.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

12             Mr. Stojanovic.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   During those three meetings that you attended, did they discuss

15     the fact that incidents such as the ones you have described actually

16     occurred in the field around Srebrenica?

17             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, leading.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

19             Mr. Stojanovic, would you please rephrase.  But is there -- is

20     there dispute about the fact that sometimes actions were taken from the

21     Srebrenica area and surrounding Serb-held territory?

22             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, no, but that's not the concern.  It's

23     whether the witness's recollection and leading the witness's recollection

24     on to that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, I see that point.  But it's of no use to

Page 42706

 1     discuss it anyhow if there's no dispute about the matter that this

 2     sometimes happened.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic and keep both in mind, both about

 4     the leading and when there's no dispute that sometimes such actions were

 5     taken.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we're discussing

 7     whether -- not whether the incidents happened but whether, according to

 8     the orders -- but we're discussing the orders that came from those

 9     meetings.

10        Q.   Witness, at the three meetings that you attended, did Mr. Oric

11     report to Mr. Izetbegovic about what was happening in relation to these

12     incidents in Srebrenica and around Srebrenica?

13        A.   He didn't really submit many reports about that, but when he was

14     last there, when he received a direct order on the last occasion he was

15     there, not before that, he didn't really receive any orders and didn't

16     have to give reports.  He just spoke about the general situation in

17     Srebrenica and about what was happening.  But on the last occasion, on

18     the third occasion, when he received a direct order to form groups of

19     three men who would infiltrate Serbian territory, well, after a certain

20     period of time I heard how they were saying that Naser was doing his work

21     very well.  That's all.  As to what that meant, I don't know.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And before the break, I just have one more subject to

23     deal with.

24             When performing your duties, in the course of your duties, did

25     you ever provide security for any of the presidents for the neighbouring

Page 42707

 1     countries?

 2        A.   Yes, for Tudjman.

 3        Q.   Could you tell the Court something about this, but just briefly.

 4     Could you tell the Court what exactly you did and what you saw.

 5        A.   Well, there was a war between us and the Croats which was

 6     ongoing.  I believe that they had gone for a walk in a little park in

 7     front of the Presidency, and Reis said that we had to make peace with

 8     someone, that we won't wage war on so many sides because a war was being

 9     waged again the Croats and against the Serbs and against local criminals

10     Baboj [phoen] and Velika Kladusa.  He said we can't put up such

11     resistance, we can't fight a war against everyone.  We have to make peace

12     with someone.  We can't make peace with the Serbs because in military

13     terms the Serbs were doing well, so it wouldn't be possible to make peace

14     with them; they wouldn't want to.  And so we had to make peace with the

15     Croats.  And there was one good thing.  He said, "We've got two pieces of

16     shit and we have to bite into at least one piece."  So they decided to

17     make the peace with the Croats and I think Sacir --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  If the interpreter heard the name correctly.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- helped them.  Alija used him to

20     ask Tudjman to come to Sarajevo through the intermediary of the

21     Americans.  They listened to him and ten days later Tudjman came to

22     Sarajevo although he was a terrible criminal for most of the people in

23     Sarajevo because there had been quite a lot of victims in Mostar and so

24     on and so forth.  We called Croats around the cathedral to welcome him.

25     There was some other people from our community.  So when Tudjman came

Page 42708

 1     out, he thought he would receive -- he wouldn't be well received, but

 2     they chanted his name and he was nicely surprised.  That improved his

 3     mood.  And he went to see Alija.  They had a meeting and Tudjman probably

 4     liked the role of a peacemaker.  The peace agreement was soon signed.  If

 5     you need me to go into further detail, I can.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  We'll stop now.  It's time for a break, and then I

 7     will put a few more questions to you after the break, after which we will

 8     conclude my examination.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the curtains be pulled down.

10             We take a break, Witness, and we'd like to see you back in

11     20 minutes.

12             Mr. Stojanovic, as far as timing is concerned, could you tell us

13     where we are?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have one more

15     subject to deal with.  I have three or, rather, four documents.  I don't

16     think I will need more than 15 minutes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll have those 15 minutes after the break.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And I think I won't be using up

19     more time than I had requested.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, you would not, if you would -- certainly not.

22             We take a break, and we resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 1.19 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 42709

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the curtains be drawn up again.

 3             Before I give an opportunity to Mr. Stojanovic to continue, I've

 4     one short question, and please try to keep your answer short as well.

 5             We discussed before the break this meeting where six persons were

 6     present, where Mr. Izetbegovic had approved plans by Sefer Halilovic and

 7     Talijan to develop a -- an incident, a serious incident, in order to

 8     provoke the international community to take action.

 9             Now, was Mr. Ceric present at that meeting when Izetbegovic

10     approved it or was he not?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was.  And I know that because

12     Alija's two relatives and Ceric had come from the Presidency together and

13     there were the two of them waiting there, so I know that's why he was

14     there too.  Throughout that time --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand your answer.  But earlier we

16     discussed those present and you didn't mention him.  So would you please

17     Ive accurate in your answer, because now you add a seventh person.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think there's a

20     misunderstanding as to whether he was mentioned or not.  He wasn't

21     mentioned personally but in terms of his function.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- you're not supposed to give evidence.  It

23     wasn't mentioned as such.  If you want to draw your attention to things I

24     may have overlooked, then please give me the page and the line number and

25     then I'll seriously look at it.

Page 42710

 1             Please proceed.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And please put your next question to the witness.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Witness, in the previous session, you testified about how many

 6     people were present in response to a question put to you by the Court.

 7     My question will be a direct one now.  Did you mention the function, the

 8     function of the person you call Reis?

 9        A.   Well, I can't remember whether I said that Reis -- whether I

10     mentioned the name, that he was there.  In any event, if there's a

11     mistake, it can be corrected.  Reis Afendija, Mustafa Ceric did attend

12     the meeting.

13        Q.   For the sake of the transcript page 57, lines 10 to 12 of today's

14     hearing.  With your leave, I will move on to the following question.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.  This certainly was helpful,

16     Mr. Stojanovic.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Sir, while you were performing the duties that you have

19     described, did you have the opportunity to leave the town of Sarajevo?

20     Did you have that possibility?

21        A.   Yes, and I took advantage of such opportunities on three

22     occasions.

23        Q.   Could you tell the Court where you went on these three occasions

24     when you left the town of Sarajevo?

25   (redacted)

Page 42711

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we turn into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 42712

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Witness, could you please tell us how you managed to leave the

 5     town of Sarajevo.

 6        A.   Well, I have an UNPROFOR card, or I had an UNPROFOR card.  That

 7     was also the case for certain other individuals in the Presidency,

 8     although not for many, and with such a card we had the right once every

 9     three months to take advantage of an UNPROFOR flight to Ancona or to

10     Frankfurt.  It depended on what was available.  I took advantage of that

11     right on three occasions.

12        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for counsel.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Could you please tell us how you crossed the demarcation line

16     between the warring factions in Sarajevo on those three occasions?

17        A.   Well, since the card I had was an UNPROFOR card, and I wasn't

18     always alone, I was in a group of individuals who were using these cards,

19     they usually have -- a personnel carrier would pick these people up, take

20     them to the airport in Sarajevo.  We would wait for a transport plane, a

21     cargo plane; those are the planes that were usually used.  They would

22     unload the goods they had brought to Sarajevo and then would return to

23     Ancona or Frankfurt.  I flew to Frankfurt twice and once to Ancona

24     because that was the last flight, there wasn't going to be another one

25     for a week.  So I said, I'll go to Ancona, and then I drove on from

Page 42713

 1     there.

 2        Q.   Tell us, did you ever use the tunnel below the airport to get

 3     out?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you ever have the opportunity of personally seeing any

 6     military equipment and weapons being transported to Sarajevo?

 7        A.   Well, there's nothing secret about this.  Whatever was

 8     transported there -- well, I mean, the tunnel was made for those

 9     purposes.  That was the only purpose of that tunnel.

10        Q.   After the visit of Mr. Tudjman to Sarajevo that you discussed

11     before the break, did you notice a different, more intensive delivery of

12     weapons?

13        A.   Weapons began to arrive more regularly, and even before that, it

14     was said that we have enough weapons over there in Split.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

16             MR. WEBER:  The question was leading.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Very.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The previous one as well.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  What should we do to remind you of avoiding such

21     leading questions, Mr. Stojanovic?  I think we're ...

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will mind your instruction,

23     Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please do so.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 42714

 1        Q.   You started saying something, Witness.

 2        A.   Can I speak freely in private session?

 3        Q.   If you wish for a private session, we can organise it.

 4        A.   I have to explain how the weapons came in and then I have to

 5     mention Germany and names and humanitarian aid.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave,

 7     could we now go into private session?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  What the witness told us is not a reason to go into

 9     private session.  You can -- as long as it doesn't reveal your identity,

10     you can speak freely about Germany or whatever, humanitarian aid, names

11     in Germany, everything is fine as long as it does not reveal your

12     identity.

13             So please tell us whether you would continue in open session.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just ask.  (redacted)

15     (redacted)  Now if I have to

16     mention -- in fact, the Prosecutor reacted.  Now I have to mention it

17     again.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 42715











11  Pages 42715-42720 redacted.  Private session.















Page 42721

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 9             Witness, we'll resume tomorrow, because now we'll adjourn for

10     this day.  We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 where we

11     expect to be able to conclude your testimony.  You'll then be

12     cross-examined.

13             For the Registry, the next -- we're resuming with the next --

14     with the witness who started earlier his testimony certainly will not

15     take place in the first and perhaps not even in the second session.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I do expect to be under my time

17     estimate, so it's possible in the second session.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, therefore, that witness should remain on

19     standby during the second session.

20             Witness, before we adjourn, I want to instruct you that you

21     should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever about your

22     testimony, whether that's testimony you've given today or whether it's

23     testimony still to be given tomorrow.  Once the curtains are down, you

24     may follow the usher.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 42722

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And for counsel having assisted the witness, the

 2     same instruction for you:  That you should not speak or communicate in

 3     any way with whomever, including your client, to discuss or communicate

 4     in whatever way about this testimony.

 5             You may follow the usher.  We'll adjourn for the day, and we will

 6     resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the 16th of December, 9.30 in the morning in

 7     this same courtroom, I.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I apologise.  When I said "this same courtroom, I,"

10     I made a mistake, because tomorrow we'll be in Courtroom II -- III.

11     Well, it's not easy to count to three for a man with moderate

12     intellectual capacities.

13             Let's adjourn, and we'll see you back tomorrow.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

17                           December, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.