Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 42723

 1                           Wednesday, 16 December 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.  Courtroom III, today.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is

 9     case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Before we start, I inform

11     the parties that Judge Fluegge for urgent tribunal matters is unable to

12     continue to hear this case today.  Judge Moloto and myself have decided

13     it's in the interests of justice to continue to hear the case.  The

14     absence of Judge Fluegge will be limited in time within the -- apparently

15     there is a problem with the interpretation.

16             Is the translation okay now?  Yes, it's confirmed.  I see Mr. ...

17     I see that Mr. Mladic is confirming and is nodding in the affirmative.

18             It also seems that the e-court transcript issues have been

19     resolved, but I interrupted myself when I said that the -- Judge Moloto

20     and myself have decided it's in the interests of justice to continue to

21     hear the case.  Judge Fluegge is unavailable for today and tomorrow, if I

22     understand him well, for urgent publicly known Tribunal reasons.

23             The Chamber was informed that the Prosecution would like to raise

24     a preliminary matter.

25             Mr. Traldi.

Page 42724

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.  And good morning.

 2             I'm rising this morning just to confirm one procedural point

 3     regarding the upcoming Defence bar table motions.  As Your Honours are

 4     aware, based on the scheduling information we received last week, we will

 5     not be in court when the motions are filed.  Of course, we are in contact

 6     with the Defence, and trying to facilitate resolving the motions

 7     expeditiously.  I have discussed the procedural point I'm raising now

 8     with Mr. Lukic and I was informed yesterday afternoon that the Defence

 9     didn't yet have a position on it.

10             The Chamber' decision yesterday regarding the 92 bis motion for

11     Jasmin Odobasic, and the Chamber's approach to additional portions of

12     transcripts tendered with 92 bis and 92 quater witnesses reflects, in our

13     view, a practical approach to adding necessary context to written

14     evidence tendered by a party, by encouraging the parties to tender what

15     they consider to be necessary contextualising material in their

16     responsive filings.  Our view is this maximizes efficiency and clarity of

17     the record.  We think a similar approach will assist us in focussing the

18     issues in dispute in the litigation of the bar table motions themselves,

19     and I understand that, for similar reasons, this approach has been taken

20     in response to bar table filings in at least one closely related case.

21             Our understanding based on case practice is that this is the

22     approach the Chamber would prefer but because we won't be in court when

23     the motions are filed, to facilitate litigating them quickly and

24     efficiency we just ask the Chamber to confirm our understanding.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will consider that in its full

Page 42725

 1     composition, Mr. Traldi.  Therefore, we'll let you know soon.

 2             You were rather vague:  "In another closely related case."

 3             Could you just say which case it is.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, Your Honour.  Karadzic.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, doesn't surprise me, but ...

 6             Anything the -- well, if -- if there's anything the Defence would

 7     like to raise in this context we'd rather hear from the Defence -- well,

 8     before the start of the recess.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  We'll do that, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we have another technical problem to be

11     resolved.

12             Mr. Ivetic, is not in any way triggered by the Chamber to make

13     speaking more difficult for you, but the microphone of Mr. Ivetic needs

14     some attention in order to avoid that it again gives a lot of noise not

15     produced by Mr. Ivetic.

16             Then all technical problems being resolved, we'll hear from the

17     Defence before the recess.

18             And could we have the curtains down in order to allow the witness

19     to enter the courtroom.

20             Mr. Traldi.

21             MR. TRALDI:  And, Mr. President, I'd just ask to be excused with

22     that matter having been dealt with.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you are excused, Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours.

Page 42726

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Weber.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, just to alert the Chamber, I'm going to

 3     be proceeding this session without any direct LiveNote on my individual

 4     computer.  That will be resolved during the next break.  However, I will

 5     try to follow as best as I can on another screen.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I should have raised the matter because we were

 8     facing similar problems.  Meanwhile, it has repaired for us.  I take it

 9     would be soon.  If it causes you any insurmountable problem, Mr. Weber,

10     don't hesitate to address me.

11             Yes, the curtains may be up again.

12             Good morning, Witness GRM116.  Before we continue, I'd like to

13     remind you that you're still bound by the some declaration you've given

14     at the beginning of your testimony.

15             You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber.  You find Mr. Weber to

16     your right.  Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.

17             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness apparently draws my attention.

20             Yes, is there anything you'd like to raise at this moment,

21     Witness?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to apologise for the

23     wrong date that I provided yesterday for the beginning of the war.  My

24     brain quite simply froze.  This is a fact everyone knows, just like

25     little children do, about the date of the war in Bosnia.  So I would like

Page 42727

 1     to apologise to you and to the Defence if this caused any damage.  I said

 2     it was in 1990 but everyone knows when it started.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there's no dispute about the -- among the

 4     parties, I think, about when the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina started.  That

 5     it was 1992 rather than 1990.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think there will be any

 7     dispute about this, and I think we can agree about this as we can about

 8     the documents that relate to the matter.

 9             And I would also like to thank the witness on this occasion.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let's proceed.

11             Mr. Weber.

12                           WITNESS:  GRM116 [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

15        Q.   Sir -- good morning, sir.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   Sir, did you review your statement last night?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And, sir, is that how you came to the realisation that some of

20     the information that you provided, whether it be dates and events, were

21     not accurate yesterday?

22        A.   No, I realised that in the corridor.  As far as the date is

23     concerned, as far as my statements are concerned, they are all correct

24     for certain.

25        Q.   The first time you testified was in the Karadzic case; correct?

Page 42728

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You decided to come forward in 2013 after you saw

 3     Mr. Petronijevic on TV discussing the Karadzic proceedings; right?

 4        A.   I don't know whether it was in 2013, but it was around that time,

 5     roughly speaking.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Could we please move into private session.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

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Page 42729











11  Pages 42729-42743 redacted.  Private session.















Page 42744

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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

24             We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes to 11.00, where

25     we'll start -- Mr. Weber, can we start in open session?

Page 42745

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I think that the topic I'm going to go

 2     into right afterwards, although it was partially handled in open session

 3     in the direct examination, I think could trigger him providing personal

 4     information that could identify him, so if we could stay in private

 5     session just out of caution.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll then immediately turn into private

 7     session once we have returned at ten minutes to 11.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into

11     the courtroom.  Once he has taken his seat, the curtains may be drawn up.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And we already could move into private session.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

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Page 42746











11  Pages 42746-42773 redacted.  Private session.















Page 42774

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 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11   (redacted)

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Page 42775











11  Page 42775 redacted.  















Page 42776

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 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nor is 72.

 8             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the document into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be MFI P7787.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

12             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 3355 -- I'm

13     sorry.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  When I said "admitted," I should have said marked

15     for identification.  Unless you would not insist -- it is mainly a list

16     of names, Mr. Stojanovic.  I don't know whether you on the -- I can read

17     it says:  "State delegation of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina on

18     peace talks, Geneva, January 18, 1994," and then a name of -- a list of

19     names follows.  Signed by the Ambassador Mustafa Bijedic.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no problem with the

21     document.  But I would just like to note that in the transcript it was

22     not recorded completely the answer of the witness in B/C/S.  And that is

23     line 13.  Page 53 of the transcript.  And perhaps the witness could

24     repeat what he said regarding the number of people.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I say something?

Page 42777











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19             JUDGE ORIE:  We briefly move into private session.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

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Page 42780











11  Pages 42780-42783 redacted.  Private session.















Page 42784

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

25             We'll briefly have the curtains down, but we'll remain in open

Page 42785

 1     session immediately after the witness has left the courtroom.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petronijevic, you're excused as well.

 5             MR. PETRONIJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that's -- perhaps we should have instructed

 9     the usher to bring the previous witness, which is then continuing now

10     his -- to the courtroom.

11             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, with the Chamber's permission, if myself

12     and Mr. Kimberley can be excused, and we'll change over the seats.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you inform the Chamber.  There was

16     some matter about -- to be discussed with the Prosecution about, I think,

17     how to introduce perhaps factual documents without necessarily seeking

18     the opinion to the extent it would be outside the scope of the expertise

19     of the witness.  Could you first inform us about the result of that.

20     And, second, could you tell us how much time you would still need.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             MR. LUKIC:  I think that I shorten my time by proposing to the

23     Prosecution and we informed the Chamber some documents we would offer

24     without calling them up on our screens.  And I don't know the answer yet

25     because we didn't have time to see if Mr. MacDonald agrees.

Page 42786

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll hear from him.  But let's first welcome

 2     the witness into the courtroom.

 3             Mr. Pavlovic, please be seated.  I'd like to remind you that

 4     you're still bound by your solemn declaration.

 5             Mr. Lukic, since the chair now seems to be in the right position

 6     to testify, but could you give us -- let's just assume that

 7     Mr. MacDonald -- yes, Mr. MacDonald would accept your invitation, how

 8     much time would you still need?

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated] two and a half hours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Two and a half hours.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll consider whether we'll grant you that portion

13     in time.  I mean, it's all the way in which you presented the expert

14     report.  Try to speed up but let's see how things happen.

15             Mr. MacDonald, how much time you would need?

16             MR. MacDONALD:  We're still on two hours for cross-examination

17     but I wonder if Your Honour wanted to hear back about the --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, also.

19             MR. MacDONALD:  I am afraid that the Prosecution won't be

20     agreeing, certainly not wholesale, to this list Your Honour.  In essence,

21     we have a running list of objections, for example, we found seven without

22     translations so far, which we are still trying to get through to process.

23     We found one witness who seems to be on the Defence's list of witnesses

24     to call; that's GRM241.  I don't know if my friend planned to be dropping

25     that witness or not.  But this would be an inappropriate way to introduce

Page 42787

 1     his evidence if Defence was still trying to call him as well.

 2             Your Honour will see as a third category there are three

 3     statements which are not referred to in the report and to come in without

 4     reference to the report without any testimony on these documents, in

 5     essence, it's a bar table motion rather than anything else, Your Honour.

 6     And the first one, in particular, the testimony from the Karadzic case,

 7     we would object to that coming in untested, Your Honour, certainly.  I

 8     can't say that's a full list of objections yet, Your Honour.  I am afraid

 9     we only got this this morning.  But that's what we have so far.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

11             MR. LUKIC:  The first one was mistakenly there and I checked that

12     we cannot offer without calling this document up, the first one from the

13     list.  It's 1D06267.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that used for the witness to draw any

15     conclusions?

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, it is.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you should have thought about that when

18     tendering the expert report.

19             At least you know now of some of the -- of some of the

20     objections.  Could you already please keep that in mind.  Continue your

21     conversations with Mr. MacDonald.  And also keep in mind that if you

22     present this material without translation, that that's, of course, not

23     the way to proceed.

24             Please proceed, and as I earlier said, we -- the Chamber is

25     really insisting on finishing the evidence of this witness this week.

Page 42788

 1             We'll have to find a solution.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would quote which

 4     documents just for identification when we reached them in our questions.

 5             And, first of all, I forgot to offer into evidence used two days

 6     ago at transcript page 42637, line 13, and it's the document 1D06269.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

 8             MR. MacDONALD:  No, Your Honour.  The only thing I would add is

 9     this is referenced in the report and the reason I say that is there is a

10     partial translation of the part that my friend read out which I'm not

11     sure he took you to on Monday.  I had the footnote.  I can't find it

12     right now, but I will endeavour to find it, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And it will be marked for identification for the

14     time being.  Mr. Registrar, 1D06269 would receive number ...?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D1391, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  And the last document in relation to

19     Kamenica area we would offer -- give me just one second.  1D06326.  That

20     one is translated.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I've not heard yet of any objections.

22             Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D1392, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  D1392 is admitted into

25     evidence.

Page 42789

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           WITNESS:  DUSAN PAVLOVIC [Resumed]

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Pavlovic.

 7        A.   Good day.  And I would like to wish good day to everyone in the

 8     courtroom.

 9        Q.   I neglected you a little bit because of some technical matters.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on our screens, please, 1D06262, please.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] We're going to see the document in just a little

12     bit.  We now see it on the screen.  This is the Agency for Investigation

13     and Documentation, AID, sector Tuzla, dated the 1st of February, 1996.  A

14     record of his statement was made; it's a statement by Suljo Halilovic.

15             In the statement, we need to see the first page that we're seeing

16     on the screens now.  We need to look at paragraph 2 in the B/C/S version

17     and paragraph 3 of the English version.  It begins with:  "Near Kamenica,

18     before the asphalt road reading from Konjevic Polje to Nova Kasaba in the

19     village of Kaldrmica, fire from Praga self-propelled anti-aircraft gun

20     was opened."

21             And then it goes on to say:  "In my estimation about 1.000 people

22     were killed as a consequence of the Chetnik attack."

23             Which area was this?

24        A.   This is an area between Kamenica that we also discussed the

25     previous day, where there were a lot of victims, and the

Page 42790

 1     Konjevic-Nova Kasaba road.  So there's a distance of about 5 or 6

 2     kilometres between these two points.  And it says that this was before

 3     the asphalt road in the Kaldrmica village.  That's where the

 4     28th Division was withdrawing.  So that would, roughly speaking, be the

 5     location mentioned by the witness who gave a statement to Mr. Ruez.  When

 6     we were referring to Burnice -- Kamenica, Burnice, [indiscernible] and

 7     the road that I have already mentioned.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you assist me in telling me where

 9     we were in the report at this moment.  Focussing on what?

10             MR. LUKIC:  It's 55H.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, we're close to the moment,

12     if not yet at the moment where we should take a break.  I leave it in

13     your hands whether you have one or two questions left or you take the

14     break now.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I can use two or three minutes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   This area, Kaldrmica, is it a different area from Kamenica?

19        A.   Yes.  Kamenica is above Kravica and Sandici from that point to

20     Kaldici to the Konjevic Polje-Nova Kasaba road.  Well, there is a bridge

21     over the Jadar there, and the units of the 28th Division withdrew at that

22     point.  I said the distance between those points was 5 or 6 kilometres as

23     the crow flies.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC:  We would tender this document into evidence,

Page 42791

 1     Your Honour.

 2             MR. MacDONALD:  No objection, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 1D6262 will be Exhibit D1393,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Two more documents in relation to this location.  The

 8     first one is 1D06328, translated, and we would ask that one to be

 9     admitted into evidence.

10             MR. MacDONALD:  No objection, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit D1394, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

14             MR. LUKIC:  And then the next one is 1D06320, not translated yet.

15     We would propose it to be marked for identification.

16             MR. MacDONALD:  No objection, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D1395, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

20             MR. LUKIC:  And we are ready for the break now, Your Honour, if

21     it suits you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll take a break.

23             Mr. Pavlovic, it was rather short, but we'll continue in 20

24     minutes from now.  You may follow the usher.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 42792

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.21 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.44 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald, could we already ask the usher to

 5     escort the witness into the courtroom because there was a preliminary

 6     matter.  Yes.

 7             MR. MacDONALD:  Just a short one, Your Honour.

 8             The last document that was put forward for admission which I

 9     believe is MFI D1395, I misread my notes.  The Prosecution would object

10     to that on the basis that we don't know what it says yet and it's not

11     referenced in the report.  It is MFI'd already, but just to put that on

12     the record, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So for an additional reason, it's now MFI'd.  Please

14     proceed, once the witness has taken his seat.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Because of this, obviously

18     we have to go back.  If we can have D1395 MFI on our screens, please.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pavlovic, this document hasn't been

21     translated and it's not referred to in the report.  This is additional

22     documentation.  So there is something I will ask you now.  As you can

23     see, it is a document from the security sector of the Army of Bosnia and

24     Herzegovina, the 2nd Corps command, dated the 10th of October, 1995,

25     signed by the assistant commander for security, Colonel --

Page 42793

 1        A.   Zivic [as interpreted].

 2        Q.   Ziljic, Mehmed.  It's Mevludin Hrlic's statement, Hanjic

 3     Mevludin's [as interpreted] statement.  If we could have a look at the

 4     second page, please.  We need the last 17 lines on this page.

 5             You say this also would occur -- or, rather, in the column, there

 6     were people who would die.  They'd probably been stabbed but it was

 7     difficult to identify the perpetrator.  They say that the column was --

 8     they waited for the column in Kamenica, about 1800 hours on the 12th of

 9     July, 1995.  "We lined up when fire was suddenly opened from all sides.

10     And people were falling all over.  Chemical weapons were also used and

11     people were rendered mad by this so they even killed each other with

12     their own personal weapons and grenades.  They also opened fire on anyone

13     they would see so the slaughter there was one of the worst slaughters

14     ever.  I went down Pobudje with a group of people to the canyon that

15     river Kravica and we were ambushed again there, and on that occasion,

16     about 100 individuals died.  Then I arrived in the village of Krajinovici

17     and there were a lot of people that I saw there.  We then moved down the

18     asphalt road to Konjevic Polje or, rather, to Kaldrmica.  The Chetniks

19     were waiting for us again there and they opened fire on that mass.  And

20     on that occasion, many individuals were killed or wounded."

21             Which area are we referring to here, Mr. Pavlovic, could you

22     please assist us.

23        A.   The witness, the eye-witness to the events in the first part that

24     you have read out is speaking about the events at Kamenica and is

25     repeating things that we have already discussed.  Reference is made to

Page 42794

 1     large-scale combat, widespread panic, to the fact that people are

 2     fighting amongst themselves because there was panic and fear.  There were

 3     -- there was a significant number of victims, and the second part that

 4     you read out refers to the area that the previous eye-witness also

 5     mentioned, the witness whom we have already discussed.  This is the

 6     Krajinovici area from Kamenica onwards towards Kamenica and the Konjevic

 7     Polje-Nova Kasaba road.  So between Kasaba and that road, the distance is

 8     about 5 or 6 kilometres.  It is 2 or 3 kilometres from Kamenica and it's

 9     perhaps about 1 kilometre from the road.  Roughly speaking.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have document 1D06255,

11     please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber is fully puzzled by what

13     you're doing at this moment.  I mean, what you're doing is you put a

14     statement to the witness which is not apparently used in his expert

15     report.  You ask him to interpret that statement and that's it.  And more

16     or the less of the whole of the gist of what happens is that you invite

17     this witness to reconstruct the facts on the ground.  He is called as an

18     expert for totally different matters, and it is for this Chamber to

19     evaluate all of the evidence which is before it.  This witness doesn't,

20     at this moment, add that much to it.  If it says Kamenica in the one and

21     Kamenica in the other, then we could expect that it's the same.  But this

22     is all in the context of the witness telling us what happened.  It's for

23     the Chamber to decide what happened, on the basis of all the evidence

24     before it, and not to adopt or follow an expert who is not called an

25     expert on the matters involved.  To adopt any of his conclusions on the

Page 42795

 1     materials he apparently has used or sometimes not even used in his

 2     report, we totally are puzzled by that.

 3             I hope you understand that and keep that in mind, if you

 4     continue.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Particularly in the light -- in light of the fact,

 6     Mr. Lukic, that you now reading from this document after Mr. MacDonald

 7     has stood up to say he is objecting to it because he doesn't know what it

 8     means.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  That's why I went back because it was MFI'd

10     already [Overlapping speakers]

11             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]

12             MR. LUKIC:  -- for cross-examination.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just those questions doesn't make it any more

14     admissible.  You say this witness is seeing the document for the first

15     time today and then he's giving us an interpretation.

16             MR. LUKIC:  No, it's not an interpretation.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But it's not in his report.

18             MR. LUKIC:  That's additional documents that he provided us with.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's not in his report.

20             MR. LUKIC:  This one is not in his report.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's the point.

22             MR. LUKIC:  But still describes the same events.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, having not access to the whole of the

24     document, of course, I'm not inviting you to read the whole of it, but

25     you select portions just as the witness selected documents and that

Page 42796

 1     apparently, at least that's what I assume, is that you expect this

 2     Chamber to adopt the same conclusions on a different set of materials,

 3     not necessarily all the other materials included, and then adopt

 4     conclusions which are not within the scope of the expertise of this

 5     witness.  Because this witness is not a expert in evaluating evidence on

 6     what happened on the ground, yes or no.  He is an expert in the fields

 7     for which is he presented as an expert.

 8             Please proceed, and, again, try to keep in mind both my

 9     observations and those of Judge Moloto.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  But the work of this

11     witness is "Analysis of losses incurred by the 28th Division of B and H

12     Army during the breaking through from" --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the title.  You asked him to write about it.

14     His expertise is explained in a different way.  And his expertise does

15     not include drawing conclusions on events that may have happened on the

16     basis of personally selected materials by this witness rather than on the

17     basis of the evidence before this Chamber.  Rightly so, because we'll

18     have to do that job.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have 1D06255, please.

21                           [Defence counsel confer]

22             MR. LUKIC:  I was just warned that it's actually D1379, what I'm

23     looking for.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] While we are waiting, this is a document from

25     the federal Ministry of Defence, the security sector, and the sector for

Page 42797

 1     intelligence affairs.  It's the details of the events and the activities

 2     of certain individuals preceding the fall of Srebrenica.

 3             51B, 55Y, 97B, 62Dz, are the footnotes that also refer to this

 4     document.  It's been partially translated.  We need to see the 14th page

 5     in the B/C/S version, and in the English version --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat the page reference.

 7     Page 2 in the English version.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S version, it's in the

 9     middle of the page.  It refers to an area on to the column.  In the

10     English version, it's the first paragraph, nine lines from the bottom.

11     From the last line in the first paragraph.  Nine lines towards the top,

12     in fact.

13             It says in the earlier -- evening hours in the Ljesina area, the

14     Nova Kasaba-Konjevic Polje area was secured and it says that there were

15     groups of about 100 who started crossing over through the road.  And then

16     it say there is was an intense -- an intense artillery and infantry

17     attack launched against the column at that time.

18             Now I'd move onto page 15 in the B/C/S version, page 15, the

19     second part of the second paragraph.  And in the English version, it's

20     page 3, the sixth line from the bottom of the page.

21             It says:  Mujic Besic [as interpreted] from the Kamenica area ran

22     into Dzemal Topic with another 15 people.  They saw about 1.000 dead

23     Bosniaks next to the asphalt.  Mujic saw an [indiscernible] for a freshly

24     dug mass grave that had not been properly covered and there was an

25     unpleasant smell.

Page 42798

 1             A little further below, it says what Dzemal Hasanovic stated.  It

 2     says:  In his testimony, he stated that in the immediate vicinity of

 3     Konjevic Polje he was an eye-witness to when Chetniks fired tank shells

 4     at the column from very close range and in his estimate on that occasion

 5     they killed over 500 Bosniaks in this way.  The corpses of these victims

 6     were transported all night in trucks in a direction he was unaware of.

 7             What is the location that we are referring to here, Mr. Pavlovic?

 8        A.   This is the Nova Kasaba-Konjevic Polje road, which is very

 9     important because there were large-scale battles there and large-scale

10     losses.  The first witness or eye-witness speaks about the area nearer to

11     Nova Kasaba because he talks about Dzugum, the settlement of Dzugum.  He

12     had saw 1.000 Bosniaks that had been killed by the very asphalt.  The

13     other witness mentioned an area in the immediate vicinity of Konjevic

14     Polje.  From Nova Kasaba and Dzugum, it is at a distance of a few

15     kilometres, and in his estimate he saw over 500 Bosniaks who had been

16     killed on that occasion, and their corpses were taken away in trucks, I

17     assume, so as to make the road practicable again.

18        Q.   I'll ask you about the mass grave later referred to by this

19     witness and also I'll ask you about the bodies that were driven away.

20     This document has already been admitted.  We would like to refer to the

21     document referred in the footnote 62C.  We'd like to tender it.  1D06235.

22             MR. MacDONALD:  If it is the statement by Nedzad Ademovic, I seem

23     to recall that it was tendered already, although I'd very to check.

24     Perhaps not.  I know it's been used before, I'm pretty sure.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document D1378, Your Honours.

Page 42799

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I stand corrected.  Sorry.  And we would just mention

 2     in connection with this, the document mentioned in footnote 62C, with two

 3     diacritics, it's already admitted as P03378.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Let me ask you this:  How is it that in your

 5     work on the basis of these documents you found that, while crossing the

 6     road and in the breakthrough, only 700 members of the column were killed?

 7        A.   I must tell you that because of my professional experience and

 8     training and the education I went through in Yad Vashem in Israel, I

 9     adopt a conservative approach, while estimating the victims.  I said at

10     least 700.  Perhaps there were more.  What I did here was that I

11     proceeded on the assumption that some witnesses, because this is an area

12     of some 2 kilometres of the road, perhaps did not see the same bodies,

13     and also perhaps they --

14        Q.   Just one moment.  Did you say they did not see or that they did

15     see the same bodies?

16        A.   That they did see perhaps the same bodies.  Because the first

17     witness speaks about Dzugum near Nova Kasaba, the other one talks about a

18     location near Konjevic Polje so perhaps he doesn't know that terrain

19     sufficiently.  Perhaps it looked to him as if there were more than there

20     actually were.  So I proceeded with a large dose of caution when I stated

21     this number and then I took the numbers of another eye-witness who spoke

22     about 200 killed while crossing the road near Sandici.  So I cited that

23     number for all of those reasons.  I did the same thing while estimating

24     the first part of the breakthrough.  So as an expert in this segment of

25     my work when we're making a reconstruction in order to be able to know

Page 42800

 1     where we should look for somebody, that is my approach, and I stand by

 2     it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, is there any reason why the 200 could not be

 4     the accurate number?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that I already

 6     explained, that I allow for the possibility that certain witnesses saw

 7     the same group of those killed or at that point in time perhaps it could

 8     have seemed to them because they were seeing it as it was happening, that

 9     due to panic or fear that it seemed to them as if they were seeing more.

10     So on the basis of some other statements that I saw, sometimes even 1700

11     were mentioned.  But that is not my approach.  My approach is very

12     conservative.  I'm trying to look at all the circumstances, when

13     something happened, how it happened, when the witness saw it, did he see

14     it as it was happening or a couple of weeks later, as we had also

15     witnesses.  So that's how it was.  I hope that I have helped.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  My question is if one witness says 200 and another

17     says 1700, why would it be 700 -- I do understand that you didn't take

18     the maximum, you find somewhere in the middle.  Why not take the minimum,

19     200.  I mean, what's in your expertise which tells you, apart from just

20     weighing a bit that evidence which is not, I think, your specific

21     expertise, but, it's, rather a task for this Court, why don't you say,

22     well, one says 200, could be 200.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said 200, I meant a

24     completely different location near Sandici.  As the crow flies that is

25     some 5 or 6 kilometres farther away.  It doesn't refer to this other

Page 42801

 1     particular section of the road.  It's kilometres away from that area.  So

 2     the witness is speaking about 200 being killed while crossing the road in

 3     Sandici.  This is a different section.  We didn't read that statement but

 4     it's quoted in my work.  So I took two lowest estimates, two lowest

 5     numbers.

 6             I have to be cautious here, and I cannot just give any general

 7     evaluations.  I have to have certain parameters that I'm using in my work

 8     and in my methodology.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you are saying the 200 is about a totally

10     different location is therefore totally irrelevant for your assessment.

11     Nevertheless you mentioned that as an element in being very cautious.  I

12     have difficulties in understanding how that works, but ...

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Are these 200 irrelevant or did you take them into account?

16        A.   No, that's not something that can be irrelevant.  Had it been

17     irrelevant, I would not have included that in my work --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last

19     sentence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last sentence which was

21     not heard.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my work, I tried to find

23     statements by eye-witnesses that I believed had a certain weight and

24     relevance because of who provided them and when they provided them.  The

25     statement by the eye-witness who said that 200 were killed between the

Page 42802

 1     12th and the 13th while crossing the Sandici road is a statement that

 2     possesses relevance.

 3             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes.  That's

 4     apparently is not a repetition of the last sentence.

 5             Now, one of the answers asked about the relevance of the 200

 6     is -- that's not something that can be relevant and then an answer to the

 7     next question you say the statement by the eye-witness who said that 200

 8     were killed between the 12th and the 13th while crossing the Sandici road

 9     is a statement that possesses relevance.

10             I'm lost.  And I asked you about it because it was part of your

11     answer when you explained how cautiously were approaching the matter, you

12     specifically mentioned the 200 as an element which caused you to be very

13     cautious so I'm -- it's unclear it me, let's me say that at this moment

14     but I don't know whether the same is true for my colleagues but at least

15     for you to know, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   We are operating on the basis of interpretation --

18        A.   I apologise, I didn't hear the entire question because of the

19     overlapping speech and interpretation.

20        Q.   [In English] Sorry, today is cabin behind me so I cannot follow.

21             [Interpretation] Today, since we're working on the basis of

22     interpretation, today, did you ever say today in your testimony that

23     these 200 were irrelevant?

24        A.   No.  I think that I did not say that the statement or that the

25     number were irrelevant.  I said that they were relevant.

Page 42803

 1        Q.   And one more thing that I noticed.  Did you ever said that in one

 2     statement you said that somebody referred to 1700?

 3        A.   No, no, I did not say that.

 4        Q.   What did you say what do you think when you mentioned the number

 5     1700?

 6        A.   What I wanted to say was that if I were to automatically add up

 7     or make general conclusions, then I could come to a conclusion that it

 8     was 1700.  However, my approach is different, and I already explained

 9     that.

10        Q.   And these 700, are they from the same location that you found or

11     were they from different locations?

12        A.   These 700 include those bodies that were seen on the section of

13     the road Konjevic Polje-Nova Kasaba and 200 in the section of the road

14     near Sandici, and these two locations are some 5 to 7 kilometres apart.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Your microphone was not activated.  But I could

17     imagine that you were drawing my attention to the fact that it is a

18     quarter past 2.00.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             Mr. Pavlovic, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'll resume tomorrow.

22     I will discuss for one second with the parties how to proceed tomorrow,

23     but you are already allowed to follow the usher, but not until after you

24     have confirmed that you understand my instruction that you should not

25     speak or communicate in whatever way, with whomever, about your

Page 42804

 1     testimony.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, has the last break resulted in any

 5     further update on how to proceed?  Because tomorrow this Chamber thinks

 6     that it is -- it's fully in line with a fair trial that we should

 7     conclude hearing the testimony of this witness tomorrow.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, this is genocide count in our indictment

 9     and we don't think that we should be rushed in any way.  We really have

10     to go with this expert through certain documents and we would offer

11     another for admission.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, apparently it escaped your mind what we

13     said again and again and again, that is, that the existence of such

14     statements do not in any way allow, within the scope of the expertise of

15     this witness, to draw the kind of conclusions he draws, and we urged you

16     again and again and again to focus on what the expertise of this witness

17     is.

18             Now, if he, in his daily work, pays attention to background

19     offered to him and he draws any conclusions on that, that's his sake.

20     But he's here presented as a witness in a certain field, and most of the

21     exercise he makes is beyond that field of expertise.

22             We have emphasised that again and again.  You are invited to seek

23     agreement with Mr. MacDonald how to proceed in such a way tomorrow that

24     we can conclude the evidence of this witness.  If not, the Chamber will

25     set time limits.  Just for your information.

Page 42805

 1             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, the 17th of

 2     December, 9.30 in the morning, and I think we are back in courtroom 1

 3     tomorrow.  We are.

 4             We stand adjourned.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of

 7                           December, 2015, at 9.30 a.m.