Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 42806

 1                           Thursday, 17 December 2015

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into the courtroom.

12     I meanwhile use the time for the following matter.  It's a withdrawal of

13     Defence motions.

14             On the 8th of December of this year, the Defence filed a motion

15     withdrawing its motions for admission of the evidence of Jojin Kljecanin,

16     Bozo Davidovic, Bogoljub Kos, and Dragisa Serdar.  In light of the

17     Defence`s withdrawal of the evidence of Serdar and Davidovic, the Chamber

18     hereby clarifies that D1276 and D1241 are marked not admitted.

19             Could even deal briefly with another matter.  It's about an

20     exhibit number.

21             During the number of Milos Kovac on 1st December document bearing

22     65 ter number 03797 was assigned to Exhibit P7741.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  However, the Registry attached the document to

25     document P7742, and the Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to reassign

Page 42807

 1     Rule 65 ter number 03797 to P7741 in e-court.

 2             Good morning, Mr. Pavlovic.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Morning.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll continue to hear your evidence, but I'd like

 5     to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've

 6     given at the beginning of your testimony.

 7             Mr. Lukic.  And could I also inquire with the parties whether a

 8     time arrangement has been made.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Not that we discussed, but I'll adjust.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

11             Yes, Mr. MacDonald.

12             MR. MacDONALD:  Just to put on the record, Your Honours, with

13     regard to the lists sent by the Defence yesterday morning, the

14     Prosecution has reviewed and would agree to eight documents which we've

15     sent to Mr. Lukic that can come in without Mr. Lukic having to go over

16     them with the witness.

17             We received a new list this morning with some additions it seems

18     and we will review that as well and come back as quickly as possible.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby on the record.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I would read and I provided Your Honours with the

22     list as well, and the Registrar.  I don't know if you were given the

23     list.  If you have it in front of you --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I have a list before me at this moment.

25             MR. LUKIC:  This is the tool to speed up, and it's -- it's mostly

Page 42808

 1     dealing with the second part of that breakthrough after Nova Kasaba,

 2     until that column reached the territory under control of AB and H.

 3             And I would open only three documents to summarise.  It's those

 4     three documents on the second page, and then I will move to burials and

 5     exhumations.

 6             So just to have it on the record, I'll read the numbers, and on

 7     the list you have footnotes from the analysis of Mr. Pavlovic, so we'll

 8     propose to be admitted:  1D05879.  We will ask to be marked for

 9     identification since it lacks translation 1D06272.  Also to be marked for

10     identification, 1D06273 and 1D06274.

11             The following documents are translated and we would tender them

12     into the evidence, and they are:  1D05083, 1D07247, 1D06275, 1D06259.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't seem to have those figures which starts

14     with a seven on my list.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I don't know whether -- you provided us with an

16     earlier list or whether the new list is there as well.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I don't have any starting with 7.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, you said 07.

19             MR. LUKIC:  It's -- let me check.  It's 1D06247.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I'm at 1D06274, not 47.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Under two rows below, you have this one.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  624 -- yes, that I see.

23             Can you say your numbers against, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we ...

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 42809

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, apparently you have a list.  Could you

 2     provide it such a way that we can check that during the break so as --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, that's the list you have in front of you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you -- you read a few numbers out of that

 5     list, and there are not very much in a -- in an order which made it easy

 6     for us to find them.  If you write down just the numbers, I think there

 7     were some six or eight, write them down, if you have them, give them to

 8     Mr. Registrar.  He'll either copy it or give it to us so that we can

 9     check it on our list.

10             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry if I misspoke.  That's the list we have in

11     front of us.  There's nothing else.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I have a list consisting of three pages --

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I think --

16             MR. LUKIC:  Just entered them from the transcript.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  With the help of Mr. Registrar, I think we'll

18     resolve that.  Let's -- let's -- let's first hear your questions and the

19     answers.  And the one you mentioned are the ones not opposed, not

20     objected to by the Prosecution.

21             MR. MacDONALD:  When Mr. Lukic began reading there were some that

22     we didn't oppose, the MFI ones obviously.  But this other list that we

23     got this morning, I'm not sure if Your Honours have it, there are more

24     documents, so ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one list consisting of three pages and

Page 42810

 1     whether that dates from yesterday or from today I wouldn't know, because

 2     there's no date on it.

 3             MR. MacDONALD:  Your Honour, I wonder if I might suggest,

 4     Mr. Lukic has from e-mail from us the ones that we do not object to from

 5     yesterday, from the list from yesterday morning and, thereafter, we can

 6     discuss this new list and we can put it to Your Honours in written form.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's do that and let's try to resolve it and not

 8     use court time for it.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Should I read the rest of the numbers so the

11     Prosecution knows exactly ... I'm afraid there might be some confusion.

12     It will take two minutes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  There is -- take you two minutes.  It's your time,

14     Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

16             So the next one is 1D06275; then 1D06259; the next one 1D06264;

17     next, 1D05888; next, 1D05889; next 1D06276; next, 1D06277; next, 1D06279

18     for identification, lacking translation; next, 1D06250 for

19     identification, lacking translation; next, 1D06281 for identification,

20     lacking translation; and the last one, 1D06282 for identification,

21     lacking translation.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Now we've got your list.  Of course, we don't know

23     which ones are objected to.  We'll hear that from the Prosecution later.

24     Further, I see "Statement of," sometimes given to whom, sometimes not

25     given to whom, so we do not know whether that's a statement prepared for

Page 42811

 1     ICTY purposes or not --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  There is not a single one on this list prepared by

 3     the ICTY.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's at least may remove any concerns about

 5     Rule 92.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Bis or ter, yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Bis or ter.  Please proceed, for the time being.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Next I would call up to see

 9     it on our screens, 1D05890.

10             MR. MacDONALD:  Um, sorry to interrupt.  Your Honours, I wonder

11     if we can go into private session for a moment.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

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Page 42812











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Page 42813

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

25                           WITNESS:  DUSAN PAVLOVIC [Resumed]

Page 42814

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pavlovic, we can see that Lieutenant Selim

 4     Oriz [phoen] on 26th of July, 1995 gave a statement.  I'll just going to

 5     show the last statement to you in order to speed things up although

 6     perhaps we should have seen some other excerpts.  We need to look at page

 7     67 in the B/C/S and page 11 in the English version?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  As far as I can ...

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Fourth paragraph from the bottom, it states:  "In my opinion, we

11     had our biggest losses in the Kamenica sector, when the column was cut

12     off, and after that, panic among the combatants increased.  I think much

13     more could have been done in that respect, that we did not listen to

14     those who came after us."

15             And the last sentence in the document states:  "I estimate that

16     we lost at least 4 to 5.000 able-bodied men."

17             I would like to show you another document now, 1D06280.  It's a

18     section of the transcript during the testimony of Mr. Butler in the case

19     against General Tolimir.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to look at e-court page 67.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all extra

22     microphones be switched off, please.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             MR. LUKIC:  Then we should go to private session.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

Page 42815

 1                           [Private session]

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Page 42816











11  Page 42816 redacted.  Private session.















Page 42817

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 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Can we shortly see 1D06281.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] We're looking at the book by Mr. Carl Bildt.

 9     [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... seek to see page 88 in

10     e-court.  It's page 66 of the book.

11             [Interpretation] In his book, Mr. Bildt, as we can see on page 66

12     of the book states the following:  "[In English] And probably more than

13     4.000 people had lost their lives in a week of brutal ambushes and

14     fighting in the forests, by the roadside and in the valleys between

15     Srebrenica and the Tuzla district, as the column was trying to reach

16     safety."

17             [Interpretation] Do you know where Mr. Bildt was in 1994, 1995?

18        A.   At the point in time when the events in Srebrenica were unfolding

19     in July 1995, Mr. Bildt, as far as I know, was the special peace envoy of

20     the European Union to Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Of course, the reason why

21     I took his opinion as a reference point was because at that position he

22     had insight into information -- intelligence data from the field from

23     international representatives in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and he wrote

24     that later in his book.

25        Q.   Do you know what were his other positions in Bosnia?

Page 42818

 1        A.   Immediately after this period, he became the High Representative

 2     in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   Did he participate in some conferences?

 4        A.   Yes.  In particular, the Dayton Peace Conference.  I think he

 5     took part there.  In any case, he was someone who was well-informed in

 6     terms of intelligence and what was going on in the field, and he was at

 7     the highest level.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We would just propose into evidence cover page and

 9     this page, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we do so, a line before there it reads:

11     "In five days of massacres, Mladic had arranged for the methodical

12     execution of more than 3.000 men who had stayed behind and become

13     prisoners of war."

14             Is that something you gave authority to as well or just the

15     yellow line -- the yellow highlighted portion?  Because you explained how

16     well-informed he was, so I'm wondering whether it's limited to the yellow

17     portion or whether you would also rely on the other part I just read.

18             Could you please answer my question.

19             THE WITNESS:  Oh, sorry.  I --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

21             THE WITNESS:  I -- [Interpretation] I thought the question was

22     for the Defence counsel.

23             I quoted this part from his book regarding the circumstances I

24     was dealing with and that is what I was discussing.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please answer now my question.  The

Page 42819

 1     question was whether you gave some authority to the knowledge and the

 2     ability of Mr. Bildt to know what had happened, whether you then also

 3     accept the previous few lines where he concluded, as I read, that Mladic

 4     had arranged for the methodical execution of more than 3.000 men who had

 5     stayed behind.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I were tasked to deal with that

 7     particular portion, I would have to go through the same process when I

 8     analysed the losses during the breakthrough.  I would have to collate all

 9     the relevant document, analyse them, put them in order in order to

10     produce conclusions, which would require months, if not years, much as I

11     did for my own analysis.  I did not make conclusions based on a sole

12     piece of information or document.  We know what analytical work entails.

13     Many documents, their cross-referencing, their analysis, and collation.

14             As you could see, I took a large number into -- of documents into

15     account.  Perhaps I could have included more, if that was a problem.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I did refer to the entire book.

18     I did not try to steer clear of anything, in particular.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, that again was not my question.  But the

20     authority of Mr. Bildt in this respect, you say, I would have to verify

21     that, and you didn't verify that on the others although, in general

22     terms, you accept Mr. Bildt as someone who was knowledgeable about the

23     events.

24             Is that how I have to understand your testimony?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I was busy with the losses

Page 42820

 1     of the 28th Division sustained during the breakthrough.  This is just one

 2     of many documents that I tried to cross-reference.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You're evading an answer to my question.  Whether

 4     you accept the authority of Mr. Bildt as such and whether you would

 5     accept it on a similar level for the previous lines.  Not to say that he

 6     is necessarily right or wrong, but you praised his knowledgeability and

 7     whether that would -- if there's any reason not to accept that for the

 8     previous lines.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And, incidentally, that sentence that Judge Orie

10     read also relates to losses during the same period in the same area.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I may be of assistance.  I

12     did mention what Mr. Bildt's position at the time was.  He had access to

13     intelligence information for everything.  However, I cannot comment upon

14     the previous sentence because I did not include it in my analysis.  As

15     for the segment I was tasked with, I said, yes, he was in that position

16     and he had access to information.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I asked you whether that would be any less

18     true for the previous sentence.  I'm not -- I didn't ask you whether you

19     agreed with him but whether there's any reason to less or even more

20     accept his knowledge, his ability, to know what had happened in relation

21     to the previous few lines.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I've answered, but I will

23     repeat.  In order for me to comment on any part of his book, I have to

24     put together many documents concerning the topic, and I have to analyse

25     them in order to produce some kind of assessment.

Page 42821

 1             As for the highlighted part, did I that, but I did not do that

 2     for the previous sentence.  Otherwise, it would have been unprofessional,

 3     if I had done that.  I cannot say if it is correct or not.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hope you understand my point of

 6     view.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I fully understand.  I didn't even ask you whether

 8     it was correct or not.  I asked you whether the same praising of his

 9     knowledgeability, whether there's any reason to believe that he was less

10     knowledgeable on the part on the previous sentence, in view of his

11     position, his access to intelligence, all the reasons you mentioned

12     answering Mr. Lukic's questions, whether you -- there's any reason that

13     you would give him less authority on other parts of the book.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said he had access to information

15     in keeping with his position.  That is not in dispute.  It is as it is.

16     What I did say was that I cannot comment on the previous part because I

17     did not deal with it.

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- he did have information, though.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  He was just as well-informed on any matter, not just

21     the lines you focussed on.  Is that --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Only I would comment on this, Your Honour.  Now, you

Page 42822

 1     are seeking the opinion of this witness on something he didn't deal and

 2     did you not permit to us seek his opinion on something he dealt with.  I

 3     just want it on the record.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, first of all, you're not supposed to

 5     comment on what I asked.  You asked questions to this witness about the

 6     background of Mr. Bildt, his access to information and his

 7     knowledgeability.  And that was put in general terms, not exclusively in

 8     relation to that.  The questions what was his position did he have -- I

 9     asked whether there's any reason to believe that he would have been less

10     knowledgeable on a portion of the book on which you did not focus but

11     which I read to him, and I only did so after you had tendered the

12     document.  So I let -- I allowed you to ask all questions you wished to

13     put to the witness.  It was only when you tendered it that I asked this

14     additional question.

15             Mr. Registrar, the number for the book would be ... for the

16     excerpt of the book.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D1396, Your Honours.

18             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honour.  We were just hoping that the

19     date of the book could come in as well.  It's on page 5 [Overlapping

20     speakers].

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you can agree on it, then we don't need

22     page 5.

23             MR. MacDONALD:  Oh.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What's the year when the book was published?

25             MR. MacDONALD:  It's 1998 from our reading, Your Honour.

Page 42823

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  1998.  No objections.  Admitted into evidence.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Can I consult with the client for a

 4     moment?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You can do so if he sticks to our rule that he

 6     should not speak at audible volume.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I can hear Mr. Mladic's voice so ...

 9             No speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic.  Last warning.

10             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Do you know anything about the meeting between Mr. Mladic and

14     Mr. Bildt when they met in Dobanovci on the 14th of July, 1995 around the

15     time when everything was going on?

16        A.   I read hundreds of thousands of documents when I analysed all of

17     it.  Colloquially speaking, I may have touched upon it, but I wasn't

18     particularly interested since it was not directly related to the topic.

19     I do know there was a meeting.  I think there were several people

20     involved, including some senior internationals, but that's all I know,

21     I'm afraid.

22        Q.   Let us move onto the next topic.  We will now deal with the part

23     of the report that deals with the mortal remains of the killed members of

24     the 28th Division of the Army of BH.  I wanted to draw the Chamber's

25     attention to P01557.  It is General Ratko Mladic's order on returning

Page 42824

 1     things to normal in the municipality of Srebrenica.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald.

 3             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would normally wait for my

 4     friend to pose the question but the Prosecution would object to the

 5     documents, the military documents which are -- in the English pages 48 to

 6     page 50 of the witness's report being shown to him and the witness

 7     commenting upon them.  In the Prosecution's submission, it is outside the

 8     expertise of this witness to interpret military orders.  I believe he

 9     also gives a reason with regard to infectious disease and epidemics as to

10     the fate of these bodies.  That is outside of his expertise,

11     Your Honours.

12             MR. LUKIC:  If I may, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  We heard from Mr. Pavlovic at the beginning of his

15     testimony that his primary source in his work in the institute of missing

16     persons in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on today's job, today's position are

17     military documents.  The main issue of knowledge for his institute.  He

18     worked before, and for his office today.  It's -- we have military

19     documents tendered by the Prosecution through Ministry of Interior of

20     Denmark written in Cyrillic that the witness said he she that did not

21     have --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

23             MR. LUKIC:  -- idea what that document is, and to say that

24     gentleman cannot comment on military documents is --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

Page 42825

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Is --

 2             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... first of all, a witness of

 3     fact is not an expert witness.  You have presented this expert witness

 4     and given his credentials in terms of identification, exhumation and

 5     there was another, I think a third section.

 6             Now, you now say, Whatever is only indirectly related to that

 7     falls within his expertise as well.  That's not true.  I mean, the

 8     analysis of military documents usually requires an extensive military --

 9     military expertise which is supported by the training, by the experience

10     in the military field, et cetera, et cetera.

11             Now, you haven't presented this witness as such.  You have

12     presented him as a witness in other fields.  If this is what you think,

13     you should have presented him as a military expert and then you could

14     have told us.

15             MR. LUKIC:  With all due respect, Your Honour, the first

16     operative.  First operative in that institute.  Everything went through

17     him.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.  I've seen persons who are first officers

19     or even directors of hospitals.  That doesn't make them doctors.  Let's

20     be clear on that.  It's just a comparison.  I leave it to that at this

21     moment.

22             Please proceed, but keep in mind, first of all, there's only an

23     overall objection, that there's an objection.  I have not ruled on that

24     yet.  With your questions, stay within the limits of the expertise of

25     this witness and then please proceed.  And you may put questions in such

Page 42826

 1     a way that you achieve your aim also by not relying on elements that are

 2     not within the scope of his expertise.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I just mentioned the first document, it's P exhibit,

 5     so I don't know what the objection is, whether it should be [Overlapping

 6     speakers] ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... if you would have listened

 8     well, you would know what the objection was.  Not to look at this

 9     document, but to put a certain type of questions, and Mr. MacDonald

10     clearly explained that he did that unusually at this stage so as to be

11     clear what he expects you to do, and I think the Chamber expects to you

12     to stay within what we told you to do.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on our screens 65 ter number from the

14     Prosecution list 05794, please.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you deal with the fate of those who

16     disappeared when you worked for the institute of missing persons in BiH?

17        A.   Yes, those who went missing during the war in Bosnia or those who

18     went missing who originated from Bosnia.

19        Q.   Did you rely on such documents as this one in the course of your

20     work?

21        A.   We would not have been able to do our job had we not relied on

22     military documents when it comes to those who went missing during the

23     war.

24        Q.   You are not a military expert.

25        A.   No.  I'm the head of sector who deals with intelligence and

Page 42827

 1     analysis concerning the missing persons and the return of their remains

 2     to their families.

 3        Q.   The document before us is dated the 20th July 1995 from the

 4     command of the Drina Corps.  We see here that asanacija or sanitation and

 5     hygiene measures of the battle-field are concerned.

 6             Under item 1, we find the following:  "In co-operation with the

 7     civil defence organs, health centres and hospitals, the organs of public

 8     utilities enterprises and work organisations, and Ministries of Defence

 9     of municipalities, immediately organise and proceed with the complete

10     clearing-up of the battle-field ..."

11             What kind of information did you gather?  Who took part in

12     asanacija in terms of military and civilian authorities in the second

13     part of July in 1995?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald.

15             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honour.  We would have two objections

16     to that question.

17             Firstly, the who, if he is basing upon this order it would again

18     be interpretation.

19             Secondly, I think my friend referenced the word "battle-field"

20     which, again, the Prosecution would submit requires a military

21     interpretation for the area being talked about, which, again, outside the

22     witness's expertise, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you lay a foundation for your question,

24     Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I'll then -- posed open question.

Page 42828

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That doesn't make the need to lay a foundation any

 2     less.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   In the course of your work at the institute did anyone ever

 5     object to you relying on such documents?

 6        A.   It is impossible.  It is one of our primary sources --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Irrelevant question.  Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

 8             The question is not whether someone else objected to or did not

 9     rely on it.  We want to know -- the laying of a foundation is not whether

10     others commented on it.

11             Witness, what, in terms of battle-fields, what is your definition

12     of a battle-field and from where do you get that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not deal with military

14     lexicon definitions.  We were looking for those who went missing, and we

15     took into account all documents that assisted us in the process,

16     including, military ones.  That was the context we worked in, and it

17     involved intelligence and analysis.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not an answer to my question.

19             Could you please put your next question to the witness,

20     Mr. Lukic.

21             Or perhaps I would have one.  Witness, do you have any knowledge

22     about who in military structures would be tasked with sanitacija [phoen]

23     on the ground?  And could you tell us on what basis you have knowledge

24     about that.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clearly defined in this

Page 42829

 1     document who is to be involved.  There are rules of service that existed

 2     on all sides.  It was done by the bodies of civilian protection when

 3     ordered by the military structures.  That is general knowledge.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It's general knowledge, you say.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is general knowledge when it

 6     comes to the work we did.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And those rules of service you are referring

 8     to as relevant, could you tell us which rules of service you are

 9     referring to?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In what sense?  Precisely?  You

11     want me to cite the documents and their numbers or something else?  I

12     don't understand.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please describe them for me.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rules of service define what

15     asanacija in the battle-field is, and it is specified who is to be

16     engaged.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you then point at what rules of service would

18     apply in this context, in the context of this document?  Indeed,

19     specifically rules so-and-so or ...

20             And Mr. Mladic is supposed not to speak aloud.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't necessary for me to deal

22     with the details of rules of service.  We had to know how it all worked

23     in principle, and we can see it in this document.  We can see who was

24     included.

25             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 42830

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To me, it was sufficient to be able

 2     to follow it all.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand that, that that's your

 4     opinion.  You said sanitation was done by the bodies of civil protection

 5     when ordered by the military structures.

 6             Where is that relation between the military structures

 7     ordering --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Municipal?  I talked about things

 9     how they were inherited from the JNA in principle.  The same principle

10     was adopted on all sides with variations.  However in principle and

11     depending on the situation, it was done by public utilities enterprises

12     and the bodies of civilian protection, i.e., civilian authorities.  To

13     what extent any military bodies were included depended on each particular

14     case.  It was a chaotic state during the war and things were not all

15     orderly in place.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  What were the rules on the involvement of the

17     military authorities in this respect?  Should they order it?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not go into such detail.  We

19     were interested in the principles.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic, and please keep in mind what we said

22     earlier about sticking to the expertise of the witness.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, if I may just go to your question that

24     started this debate.

25             At page 22, line 1, you said, "Who took part in the asanacija in

Page 42831

 1     terms of military and civilian authorities in the second part of

 2     July 1995."

 3             This was after reading paragraph 1 of this document that's on the

 4     list -- that's on the screen by asking who.  Do you want additional

 5     entities and people in addition to those mentioned in paragraph 1?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  No, I wanted if this witness has knowledge how it

 7     worked in practice at that moment during his work, if he got any

 8     additional information who actually did work on the terrain in the field.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you want his knowledge apart from what this

10     order says?

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah Your Honour.  If it's really implemented in

12     practice, if he got that information during his work.  If he does not

13     know, he can tell me, I don't know.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't know.  You go ahead.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic, as part of your work at the institute, did you

17     follow this lead?  Did you try to find those who went missing, whether

18     some of them were found on the ground and how many were buried?

19        A.   It is a well-known fact, from my experience and that of my

20     colleagues as well as on the basis of the analysis of the documents I

21     read, that asanacija was always done in the period following a combat

22     activity.  And we can see that in orders such as this one, as well as the

23     statements of those people who survived from the 28th Division.  They

24     could see asanacija being implemented in the field.  We also have regular

25     reports of VRS members who, for example, asked for additional fuel in

Page 42832

 1     order to be -- to bury enemy soldiers.  Some of it was done after

 2     September 1995 during the joint work of the entity commissions.

 3             From 1996 to date, perhaps some 700-plus sets of bodily remains

 4     were exhumed, and I put together a list of some 660 people who were --

 5     whose bodies were collected on the ground and identified.

 6        Q.   Just one moment.  What was interpreted was that they were

 7     exhumed.  Were they exhumed or ...

 8        A.   They were collected from the surface.  They were cleared.  So

 9     after that, there is the question in the context of this order and other

10     information that I referred to, where the rest of the bodies were.  I'm

11     talking about thousands of bodies.  And then here it is said that it is

12     essential to complete asanacija because, at that time of the year, it was

13     very hot and some diseases would break out and affect people and animals.

14     So on the basis of reviewing documents and some samples, I came to the

15     conclusion that these orders were carried out and that the asanacija was

16     implemented and obviously some of those bodies that were part of this

17     clearing of the terrain were buried in some mass graves.

18        Q.   You mentioned a witness statement?

19             MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... 1D06282, please.

20     1D06282.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But perhaps before we look at that, perhaps we first

22     take a break.

23             But before we do that, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes,

24     Witness.  But before we do that, I saw, Mr. Lukic, that -- you may follow

25     the usher.

Page 42833

 1             That what is uploaded from Carl Bildt's book at this moment is

 2     the entire book and, therefore ...

 3             MR. LUKIC:  We have to see with the Prosecution which parts they

 4     want uploaded.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please --

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- define the excerpts as soon as possible so that

 9     we can limit ourselves to a few pages rather than to 446.

10             We take a break and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald.

15             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

16             With regard to the last answer of the witness, the Prosecution

17     would consider that answer is outside of his expertise.  We did not

18     object because unfortunately we found the question did not necessarily

19     elicit that answer.  However, we appreciate that is now on the record.

20     It was an area that we hadn't intended to cross on, but given that it's

21     on the record now we consider that we consider the most efficient way

22     forward would simply be to cross-examine the witness on that claim,

23     Your Honour.

24             The question I had in mind was Mr. Lukic stating:  "Mr. Pavlovic,

25     as part of your work at the institute, did you follow this lead, did you

Page 42834

 1     try to find those who went missing" --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What page and what line.

 3             MR. MacDONALD:  Sorry.  Temporary transcript 26, line 5,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness entered the courtroom while you were

 9     speaking.  That doesn't cause you any problem from what you said?

10             MR. MacDONALD:  No, Your Honour.  Although if there's to be

11     further discussion on this, we would ask that it be outside the presence

12     of the witness, but I would --

13             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, one second.

14             I must admit due to overlapping speakers I do not know whether I

15     have a full recollection of what was said.  But if you say you want to

16     cross-examine the witness on that.  If Mr. Lukic wants to make any

17     comment you'd rather have it not in the presence of the witness.

18             MR. MacDONALD:  Any further discussions right now, Your Honours,

19     yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further discussions.

21             Mr. Lukic, if you want to further discuss the matter, then we

22     have to ask the witness -- either to leave or at a later stage to leave

23     at least before the start of the cross-examination.  If you say, well,

24     it's on the record.  That's what will happen --

25             MR. LUKIC:  I will discuss this, and, Your Honour, I would just

Page 42835

 1     remind that this witness was called as an expert in tracing, exhumation

 2     and identification.  So tracing is what we were discussing here.  He has

 3     to trace first.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  So apparently there's some dispute about whether it

 5     falls within the field of expertise yes or no.  You consider it was.

 6     You've asked the question.  The question has been answered.  Despite your

 7     opinion, Mr. MacDonald, you say, you will cross-examine the witness on

 8     it.

 9             Fine.  There seems to be no real problem.  Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will just recalled 1D06282

11     on our screens, please.

12             This is not translated.  And I will just read one short part of

13     the statement.  We need -- and this is statement of Suljic, Idriz from

14     30th November 1995.  And if we can see page 3, please.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pavlovic, we're looking at paragraph 3 here,

16     the big, long paragraph.  Line 10 from the top of the paragraph it states

17     the following:  "While we were in Pobudje, we were watching from a hill

18     as the Chetniks in Pervane were walking along the asphalt road and

19     collecting bodies with a loader and loading them into a FAB truck.  They

20     were driving them towards the village of Kravica, municipality of

21     Bratunac."

22             MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... from D01379 which

23     is federal Ministry of Defence, security and intelligence sector.  We

24     read that also 500 Bosniaks were driven by trucks in the same direction.

25     We have P03518 that discusses the matter and we can find it in

Page 42836

 1     paragraph 70 of the work of Mr.  -- footnote 70 of the work of

 2     Mr. Pavlovic.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pavlovic, today you talked about the 700

 4     that were collected from the surface, from the ground.  And you're

 5     talking about your lowest assessment of 4.500 to 5.000 men who were

 6     killed during the attempt to break through?

 7             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honour.  My friend has just referenced

 8     in his question the conclusion of the witness which Your Honours

 9     precisely stated was outside of his expertise the assessment of the

10     number of people who died.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.  What we said about it is clear.

12     Mr. Lukic, at this moment, refers to it.  Let's leave it to that and

13     nothing more, nothing less.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   According to you and in your work, what was the conclusion that

17     you reached about where those bodily remains are?

18        A.   As I explained in the previous session, and taking into account

19     all the documents that I went through, and in view of my experience in

20     this work, and on the basis of certain information and data, I reached

21     the conclusion that a certain number of bodies of those killed, members

22     of the 28th Division, during the breakthrough, were cleared when the

23     terrain was being cleared after the combat actions.  This is also stated

24     in the order that we had the opportunity to see and that they were buried

25     in certain graves --

Page 42837

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the name of the

 2     corps that the witness mentioned.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the name of the corps you

 4     mentioned.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Drina Corps.  Assistant

 6     commander for logistics of the Drina Corps.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You said in some graves.  Which graves did you mean?

10        A.   Well, in principle, according to the information that I found, it

11     is my opinion that these bodies that were cleared from the terrain were

12     buried in primary and secondary graves, as we refer to them.

13        Q.   We will come to that, and we will look at a document.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But before that, I would like to

15     tender document 65 ter 05794.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for that, do you have in mind

17     any graves that were exhumed and were presented in the evidence of the

18     Prosecution, or are you talking about other graves?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned that in the overview,

20     in the table that I submitted.  These are graves that relate to the

21     events in Srebrenica in 1995.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not my question.  My question is, we have

23     received evidence presented by the Prosecution about exhumation in mass

24     graves, and there's quite some detail.  People who were identified, who

25     were found in those mass graves.  When you're talking about these persons

Page 42838

 1     having been buried in graves, do you have the same graves in your mind so

 2     that they were found in those same graves, or do you have other graves in

 3     your mind?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of exactly which

 5     graves were mentioned by the Prosecution.  I followed the trail of my own

 6     information, and I presented that in the overview that I presented and

 7     that I assume you received.  I did not deal with information about

 8     whether the Prosecution submitted something or not, but I think that this

 9     evidence is clear.  I -- I did present them.

10             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... let me stop you

11     there.

12             The overview -- Apparently, Mr. Lukic, you understand what it is.

13             MR. LUKIC:  It's --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- it's --

15             MR. LUKIC:  It's 1D06331.  We're just coming to that after we

16     admit those documents.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not yet for us.  We haven't seen it yet.

18             MR. LUKIC:  At the beginning, Judge Moloto asked one question.

19     We just saw shortly that document.  We are now going back to it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We never really got it.  As I said to you the

22     other day, we never got that document.  And, you know, it's supposed to

23     have been part of the report and that part of report we never got.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We don't have it.  That's one.

25             Second, Witness, do I understand you well that you are not aware

Page 42839

 1     of the evidence presented to this Chamber in relation to exhumation of

 2     persons, all the evidence, and let's say in the Srebrenica area in 1995,

 3     you have no knowledge about what was presented as evidence to this

 4     Chamber?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I said that I didn't

 6     know in detail what the Prosecution submitted to the Chamber, which

 7     graves these were.  I didn't deal with that.  I was just working on

 8     tracing where the bodies could be of the persons who were killed in the

 9     breakthrough.  Those are the bodies that I was tracing.  I was trying to

10     find out where those bodies could be.  And so I presented to you the

11     evidence that I acquired.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Let's move on.  It's --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sure you can answer the simple question:

14     Which graves did you deal with?  From which graves did you exhumed the

15     people that you analysed?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I submitted that in the material in

17     the analysis --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you've got to

19     know what graves you went to analyse.  We will look at the document when

20     it comes, as Mr. Lukic has told us.  He is getting to that.  But can you

21     answer the question right now.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that we're not

23     understanding each other.  I'm talking about the manner in which I, in

24     this segment, reached conclusions in my analytical process.  I did not go

25     and exhume anything --

Page 42840

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These skeletons were already

 3     exhumed.

 4             If you permit me, I can explain.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll get to that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll get to that.  I'm just a bit surprised that

 7     talking about large numbers of dead persons having been found in graves,

 8     that you cannot tell us whether these were graves which were exhumed by

 9     the Prosecution or through the intervention of the Prosecution, or

10     whether these were exhumations done separately by your people.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is something that I can't

12     answer.  I'm sorry, forgive me.  Perhaps I misunderstood.

13             All the mass graves, primary and secondary graves, linked to the

14     events in and around Srebrenica in July 1995 were exhumed either by the

15     Prosecutor's office, I assume, or by the authorised prosecutor's offices

16     in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  This is clear.  No one else could have been

17     performing these exhumations from these graves.

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I analysed the data from those

20     exhumations.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the exhumations not performed by your own

22     people but performed by the Prosecution or those instructed by the

23     Prosecution to do so.  Is that ...

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Members in my sector took part in

25     the exhumation, each exhumation is an investigative action under the

Page 42841

 1     jurisdiction of a specific prosecutor's office, so pursuant to

 2     international agreements, we are present during the exhumation process

 3     from start to finish.  But for specific segments of our work, we use

 4     certain sectors.  For intelligence aspects of our works, we use the

 5     intelligence institutions.  For information from exhumations, we

 6     co-operate with the prosecutor's offices, and so on and so forth.  And

 7     this is something that is ongoing until the bodies are handed back to the

 8     family members.

 9             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. MacDonald,

10     you're on your feet.

11             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honours.  With regard to 1D06331,

12     that is the list that Mr. Lukic briefly showed I believe on Monday and

13     plans to proceed to, the witness stated that he provided it with material

14     with his report.  We received that list on Sunday evening at 5.30,

15     Your Honours, and we have yet to receive the majority of the supporting

16     documentation underlying it.  And I was going to bring this up when

17     Mr. Lukic moved to that list, but seeing as the witness has claimed, I

18     believe, he provided it with the material with his analysis, we didn't

19     get it till Sunday, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it seems to be pretty relevant to know

21     what the witness in this respect presented, because I went through his

22     report searching, for example, for the word mass or mass graves,

23     et cetera and then you hardly find any concrete information.  But

24     apparently there is a list unknown to us, although presented by the

25     witness.  Let's move on and let's wait for what happens.

Page 42842

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I can also tell you the concern of Mr. MacDonald, he

 2     asked me whether I have statements that support this list I'm going

 3     through just in few moments, and I said that Mr. Pavlovic brought some

 4     statements, but it was too late to put them in the record and I couldn't

 5     ask him since I could not --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you receive the list?  That's first.

 7             The second support for that list maybe have come late.

 8             When did you receive that list?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Pavlovic provided that list to us when he came

10     here.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The list of the --

12             MR. LUKIC:  6331.  We uploaded as Mr. MacDonald just told us.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pavlovic, you said you expect us to know about

14     that list.  When did you provide that list to the Prosecution, the list,

15     the attachment?

16             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Hmm?

18             MR. LUKIC:  To the Defence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  To the Defence, yes.

20             When did you do that?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that you knew about the

22     document because, on Monday, you had it in front of you.  I brought it

23     with me, and I gave it to the Defence as an overview of specific examples

24     on the basis of which I reached certain conclusions.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And you didn't bother to do that when you presented

Page 42843

 1     the report?  To the Defence.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be honest, I am not quite versed

 3     in all the procedures that have to do with your work, so I am in this

 4     situation for the first time.  I must say so.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.  It's --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, but in your work, didn't you see that as

 7     part of your work as a person who is going to -- who specialising in

 8     tracing, exhumation and identification of people who lost their lives in

 9     war?  Didn't you think we need to know who you have identified?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're probably right.  But there

11     was some objective circumstances.  To be honest, I didn't even know till

12     the last day whether I would be coming to testify at all.  I mean, there

13     was some confusion about whether I would testify or not.  Now, I was

14     informed a day or two before.  I had no idea that I would actually be

15     coming to testify.  There were many things that were unclear, at least as

16     far as I'm concerned.  I'm not really somebody who is familiar with this

17     process.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... to court.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because -- excuse me.  Because

20     these are working overviews that I used.  And I showed that to the

21     Defence when I was speaking with the Defence counsel.  I wanted to

22     explain to them how I came to certain conclusions.  This was during

23     preparation for testimony.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You didn't think that these were necessary for the

25     court to see.  You say you don't understand how we work, and I don't

Page 42844

 1     understand how you've bothered to have this list, if you didn't see it as

 2     part of your work.  If you saw it as part of your work, I don't know why

 3     you didn't make it part of your report.

 4             You see my problem?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.  Of course.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, please move on.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I offered for admission 05794.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 9             Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That Exhibit D1397, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

12             MR. LUKIC:  And the next one, 1D06282.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections either.

14             Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI D1398, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D1398 is marked for identification.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  And now we would move to this one,

18     1D06331.

19             Maybe it's easier if we only go through English version.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] We see the document in front of us, the English

21     version of the document.  Who drafted this document?

22        A.   I drafted this overview.

23             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

24             MR. MacDONALD:  Sorry, Your Honours.  I discussed with my friend

25     I think this document should not be broadcast [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 42845

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I thought only on page 4.

 2             MR. MacDONALD:  It's page 5, actually, but ...

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You have apparently considered what could be

 4     broadcast and what not.  Please stay on the safe side, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Did we get the answer?  Yes, yes, you said that

 7     you drafted the document.

 8             What is this document?  What does it show?

 9        A.   This document gives an overview of specific examples that led me

10     to assess and to conclude that the large number of bodies of casualties

11     of the breakthrough of the 28th Division, which is referred to in

12     military analysis on the Bosniak side, also based on eye-witness reports,

13     media reports, and also scientific research of the actions of the

14     28th Division, as well as testimonies of family members and combatants,

15     so I tried, pursuant to my own work description, to work out where these

16     bodies could have ended up, and this is a kind of overview of all the

17     examples of certain members of the 28th Division indicating where their

18     bodies were cleared from the terrain and possibly where they were buried.

19        Q.   It was interpreted that these are all of the cases.  Did you

20     include all of them or were these just some kind of samples?

21        A.   As I said, this is just an excerpt.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we --

23             MR. LUKIC:  No, it's -- it's just some examples, is what the

24     witness said.  It's not excerpts.  It's not all the examples.  Some

25     examples.

Page 42846

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're not there to do the

 2     interpretation.  If there's any doubt about it, you know how to deal with

 3     that.

 4             You say these are examples.  How many disputed cases do you have

 5     in total?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not enumerate them here.  I

 7     just mentioned some examples that I could.  I don't know exactly.  We can

 8     count them.  In any case, it raises some concern or creates some doubt

 9     that I used to follow the lead and, if necessary, I can explain.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I was, first of all, interested in -- if you

11     say, These are examples.  First of all, how many examples do we have in

12     this document?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For example, for the first category

14     of arguments, I mention only two or three examples.

15             For the second category, perhaps ten.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  How many in total in this document, I asked you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not count them.  I'm sorry.

18     We can count them now?  It wasn't important to me at that time.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, if you say examples, then it's -- it's

20     some out of a total.  How many cases in total you had reason to dispute;

21     that's one.  But before you answer that question, could you tell what was

22     the dispute?  I mean, what makes it disputed?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like this:  I mentioned the

24     categories of argument as I defined them.  The first set of arguments and

25     examples includes people who are still missing --

Page 42847

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... stop you there.

 2     Where do we find exactly in this document, if we find it in this

 3     document, the set of arguments?  Or is it in your report?  And if it is

 4     in your report, where is it in your report?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I specified in the report.  I

 6     specified what was the basis of dispute and then I followed it up with

 7     specific examples.

 8             For the first group, or set of examples, we have the people

 9     who --

10             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... stop you there.

11             Where in this report do we find this first group or first set of

12     examples?  Where do we have them?  On ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would have to go through this to

14     find them by their first and last name.  I can't remember them all.  But

15     I would be able to indicate them.  For example, the names of people who

16     were found at Tisova Kosa and some mortal remains from the same body were

17     found on the surface, whereas another part of the skeleton was found in a

18     mass grave.  And I have, say, another two examples like that, that I

19     mentioned.  That would be one group.  And they are in the overview.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I go back to my first question.  What is then

21     in dispute about these remains?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no dispute.  It was just

23     something that led me further to consider the process of asanacija of

24     those killed from the 28th Division, indicating that the bodily remains

25     were collected after combat and then buried in certain graves.  Perhaps

Page 42848

 1     only weeks after the event.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And in dispute with what exactly?  I mean,

 3     apparently you have developed some thoughts on how these bodily remains

 4     ended up at certain places.  Are you opposing any other thoughts?  Are

 5     you opposing conclusions drawn by others on those bodily remains?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the title of the document, we

 7     can't find -- no, I see it says "disputed."

 8             Yes.  Maybe I added the title later.  What I wanted to mention

 9     were the examples that in the course of my work may have served as an

10     indication in -- about where some bodily remains ended.  There's no

11     dispute from point of view.  I'm simply trying to find the people who

12     went missing during the breakthrough.  I was just trying to show that

13     some of those people were collected from the surface as part of the

14     asanacija process and later buried in certain mass graves.  There is no

15     dispute, per se.

16             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... no dispute,

17     although you used that in the title.  Well, at least it's now clear that

18     there is no dispute.  These are just cases where you thought that

19     specific attention should be paid to the details in order to find out how

20     and -- how they may have died.  Is that ... under what circumstances.

21             Is that well understood?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  These examples prove that

23     there was asanacija after combat and that these people were then buried

24     in mass graves.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's three steps further.  But I leave it to

Page 42849

 1     Mr. Lukic to further ask questions about it.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before he does, what you've just said, sir,

 4     about that they prove that there was asanacija after combat and these

 5     people were then buried in mass graves, was that the objective your

 6     report?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The objective of my report is to

 8     analyse the losses during the breakthrough of the 28th Division and the

 9     fate of the mortal remains of those who perished, i.e., where they ended

10     up.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where they ended up that was the objective:  To

12     find where they ended up.  Thank you so much.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Where did you get your information from, the information you

15     entered in this document?

16        A.   I referred to the examinations of bone samples.

17        Q.   Who did that?

18        A.   Let me continue.  So bone samples concerning all the exhumations

19     done so far, primarily by the ICMP.  I think there is a report before

20     this Tribunal with the names of those who were exhumed, as well as bone

21     samples and the locations where they were found and taken from.  It also

22     included all of the documents we have referred to previously.  It is in

23     the footnotes.

24        Q.   You mentioned that some bodies were found on the surface while

25     others may have been found partially on the surface and partially in mass

Page 42850

 1     graves.

 2             Let us look at page 2 of this document.  You mentioned

 3     Tisova Kosa.  Let's look at the last name on the page.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  It's not the same as I -- yeah, yeah, we have it.

 5     The last name on the second page.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Please explain this entry so that I don't put

 7     questions to you.

 8        A.   We see that the body of this person was collected at Tisova Kosa

 9     as part of asanacija.  We also have the bone sample number.  It is TIS 1

10     and so on.  However it was also exhumed from the mass grave Cancarski

11     Put 12.  These are exhumation documents.  Such information exists with

12     every case of exhumation where the body receives a designated number, as

13     well as bone samples numbers, so it can be seen where the body was found.

14     That information comes from the ICMP report in 2013 that was forwarded.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, it says, "removed as part of

16     sanitation of the terrain on location Tisova Kosa what's the basis for

17     that knowledge?  It doesn't say what the source of that information is.

18             Could you tell us on what basis you make this statement?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you find this person in the

20     specific database I just mentioned, you will see that in the ICMP

21     database it stated that the person was found at the two locations, as I

22     said.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But you said it was part of a sanitation of

24     terrain.  Does is say in the ICMP this was sanitation of the terrain and

25     there -- and how did they establish that it was sanitation of the

Page 42851

 1     terrain, rather than just finding parts of a body there?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right, I'm sorry.  Of

 3     course, I consulted other databases with respect to where people were

 4     found.  At the institute we do have an overview of where people were

 5     found.  When discussing asanacija, some people, their bodily remains were

 6     found in two or three different places because the bones were dispersed

 7     and then there are people whose remains can be found in a number of

 8     different graves.  We have all that information for the people, the

 9     location of Tisova Kosa means that they were collected from the ground on

10     the surface.  It can easily be checked and verified.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You certainly are aware that whether people are

12     found as a result of sanitation of the terrain or in any other context is

13     a -- seems to be a rather important matter in this case.  Where do you

14     find that this body, apart from being found in Tisova Kosa, that it was

15     found during the sanitation of terrain; and if so, sanitation of the

16     terrain by whom?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Asanacija and exhumation was done

18     by the acting prosecutor's offices at the point in time on orders from

19     the prosecutors who were in charge.  As part of the forensic team, there

20     is -- there's a pathologist who marks every bone sample --

21             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... let me stop you

22     there.  So when you say as part of sanitation of the terrain, you're not

23     referring to any sanitation of the terrain by the military after combat

24     or something like that, but you're referring to a search on the terrain

25     by not by the parties to the conflict but, rather, by those who were

Page 42852

 1     investigating.

 2             Is that what you referred to?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This part of the skeleton was

 4     found as part of asanacija after 1996.  It is obvious that somebody was

 5     collecting the bodies on the surface and buried them because some of them

 6     were, indeed, collected.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But it now at least becomes a bit clear to me

 8     where the word "asanacija" is often used in a totally different context,

 9     and I take it that you're aware of that.  You don't know that asanacija

10     is often used in evidence before this Chamber in the context of the armed

11     forces -- armed forces --

12             MR. LUKIC:  They are not receiving translation.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, there is no translation.  Okay.  Could we just

14     check.  Yes, it's there again.

15             Are you aware that asanacija is often used in evidence as a

16     reference to the armed forces clearing up the terrain after combat

17     situations?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I also discussed that type of

19     asanacija after combat.  Perhaps I may have been unclear, but when I

20     mention it here, it involves forensic investigation.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what's now is the specific problem here,

22     apart from that parts of the bodies were found in two different

23     locations?  What -- I mean, that happened often as we have heard.  What's

24     now the specific problem here?  Because you said it proves something.

25     What does it prove?

Page 42853

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In examples such as this, where

 2     some remains were found on the surface as part of asanacija by the acting

 3     prosecutor's office, whereas another part of the same person was found in

 4     a mass grave may indicate or may lead us to suppose that asanacija was

 5     done after combat, as foreseen by the order we saw stemming from the

 6     Drina Corps.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well -- let me just re-read what you now said.  One

 8     second, please.

 9             You are telling us that this indicates that this was the type of

10     asanacija stemming from the Drina Corps order.  At the same time, you're

11     telling us that this was asanacija by investigative bodies and that's --

12     you're mixing up here -- at least that's what I am putting to you.

13     You're mixing up the asanacija by the armed forces and the asanacija in

14     the context of investigation.  What makes you link this asanacija to the

15     Drina Corps order?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Perhaps I was

17     unclear.  I can try to clarify.

18             What I'm saying is this:  The asanacija performed at Tisova Kosa

19     in regard to this specific person was a forensic investigation, and we

20     have the bone samples, identification numbers.  At the same time, other

21     parts of the same person were found in a mass grave elsewhere as part of

22     another asanacija.  Such examples may indicate that following an order of

23     the Drina Corps after combat - perhaps a few weeks later - bodily remains

24     were collected, those belonging to members of the 28th Division, and then

25     buried in certain mass graves.

Page 42854

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I now at least understand what is, in my view,

 2     rather unclear in this report or in this overview, but at least it has

 3     become a bit clearer what you meant.

 4             Mr. MacDonald.

 5             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             At temporary transcript page 45, Mr. Pavlovic said he consulted

 7     other databases with regard to this overview.  We have -- we the

 8     Prosecution have no idea what they are and we don't seem to have access

 9     to that information, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you could have asked that -- that's clear.  You

11     could have asked that in cross-examination.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour. [Previous translation

14     continues] ... this name we can find in P01901 at page 122.  That's ICMP

15     list of missing persons.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you give the name again Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  It's P01901.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, no.  You said -- if you look at page 48, line

19     21 you said, this name we can find in P01901.  What is the name we find

20     in that document.

21   (redacted)

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we -- P1901 is not a public document so we

24     should be careful with names.

25             Please proceed.

Page 42855

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] In this table, are there other examples such as

 3     this one where some bodies were collected on the surface as part of the

 4     asanacija performed by investigative authorities while, at the same time,

 5     other bodily remains belonging to the same people who were found in a

 6     mass grave?  Do you know any such other examples?

 7        A.   I can't recall the names, but I think there are two or three

 8     other examples.  I'm very bad with -- at remembering names.  I think

 9     there are two examples.

10        Q.   Sefik, Dugonic; does he belong in the same category?

11        A.   I suppose so but I would have to check because there were many

12     names.

13             MR. LUKIC:  It's time for break, and I think that I'll move on.

14     And I don't have much left.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  "Not much" is how much?

16             MR. LUKIC:  I'm just -- I'll just be dealing with this document.

17     And I'll show one name from this P1901.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Probably ten, 15 minutes, I think it would be enough.

20     For me.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Unclear questions and unclear evidence often

22     trigger the need for clarification.

23             You may -- the witness may follow the usher.  But the usher has

24     left.  So he'll be back in a second.

25             Mr. MacDonald.

Page 42856

 1             MR. MacDONALD:  Your Honour, we wonder if it's possible if we

 2     could get any of the information the witness is referring to for this

 3     overview.  We don't have it just now.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You -- you mean what exactly?

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             MR. MacDONALD:  In particular, the databases right now is the

 7     first time we've heard about them.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I left it to cross-examination.  I take it

 9     if --

10             Mr. Lukic, have you any idea what it is?

11             MR. LUKIC:  Those databases must be from his work or --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Not from his work?  Oh, must be from his work.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Must be from his work or maybe he refers to the

14     documents he searched from our databases.  Either from us or from his

15     work.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll ask the witness the first thing after the

17     break whether he could identify any of the other databases.  I know that

18     you are losing 20 minutes, about that's -- I -- I prefer not to deal with

19     these kind of matters outside the courtroom with the witness, and,

20     therefore, we'll leave it until after the break.

21             MR. MacDONALD:  If I can just say one more thing, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. MacDONALD:  Also, the witness statements that he relies upon,

24     I think.  We're not sure but he brought some material with

25     him [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 42857

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... I didn't have a chance to

 2     ask him, since I discussed it yesterday or the day before with

 3     Mr. MacDonald, since I could not contact the witness.  So I really don't

 4     have answer to that, whether he has -- which they are.  We have to ask

 5     him.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. MacDONALD:  We understand that he would have it, Your Honour,

 8     that he brought it to The Hague, the material behind this list.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If he didn't bring it to The Hague, then it's

10     of no use to further insist.  We'll ask the witness after the break.

11             We'll take the break and resume at ten minutes last 12.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.10 p.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It may be that since we're running out of time that

15     a few decisions which are taken already, that the Chamber may communicate

16     although they're not officially yet on the record what these decisions

17     are so as to allow the parties to continue to work and not to wait until

18     the end of January to hear about what those decisions are, but sometimes

19     we are running out of time, but we'll inform you then by informal means

20     of communication.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC:  I think my learned friend wanted to inquire with the

24     witness whether he has --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes, you are right.  Thank you for reminding me.

Page 42858

 1             You earlier referred to database and other sources.  Could you

 2     tell us, first of all, what they are; second, whether they have --

 3     whether you have them here with you here in The Hague.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are documents that I used in

 5     my analysis, ICMP reports on exhumations and the asanacija, which I cited

 6     in my footnotes.  I have -- other than those documents, I have a

 7     scientific study which was done by Mr. Cekic which I also mentioned in my

 8     footnote, which was done by my colleague Mr. Masovic and another

 9     colleague --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the name.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and these are overviews of mass

12     graves as well as an overview of the localities where the asanacija were

13     carried out.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from the name of Mr. Masovic, you mentioned

15     another name.  Could you please repeat that other name?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are my colleagues from the

17     institute.  Mr. Masovic and then also Mr. Murat Hrtic [phoen] who was the

18     chief of the regional office.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... to repeat the

20     name.  That was the only thing I was asking.

21             And my second question was whether you have those materials with

22     you here in The Hague.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were submitted as part of the

24     analysis.  They were submitted as attachments.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you give them to the Defence?

Page 42859

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave them to the Defence together

 2     with the analysis.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Have they been disclosed, Mr. Lukic?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Everything we received we uploaded.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's move on.  ICMP doesn't come as a

 6     surprise perhaps.  The other materials I leave it in your hands later to

 7     explore what --

 8             MR. MacDONALD:  Well, Your Honour, just to say the list that

 9     we're talking about, 1D06331, the material is there we -- apart from a

10     few witness statements mentioned also in the report.  We don't have any

11     of them and the databases referred to, we don't have that either, so I'm

12     not sure what Mr. Pavlovic is saying what he gave to the Defence and

13     when.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know either.  I can't answer the question at

15     this moment.

16             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic, these witness statements that you relied on in this

19     table, do you have them with you?

20        A.   Yes, I have them here.  In electronic form.

21        Q.   Since the Defence only has four or five witness statements from

22     this table, I think we found only four or five witness statements, how

23     many do you have with you?  The Prosecution will probably ask you that

24     and will probably ask you to hand them over to them, if you can.

25        A.   Yes, I will find them and submit them just as I did with the

Page 42860

 1     other material.  That's no problem.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 6 of this

 4     document.

 5        Q.   We can see here that it says sanitization and the names on the

 6     left-hand side, Sefik, Dugonic; Beriz, Pasic?

 7        A.   Yes, that's that.

 8        Q.   What does this group have -- talk about?  What does it indicate?

 9        A.   Those two names, just like in previous cases, parts of the

10     skeleton were found on the ground on the surface and then the prosecutor

11     undertook some investigative work whereas the rest of the skeleton of

12     these two individuals was found in mass graves.

13        Q.   Are you able to tell us which mass grave on the basis of what is

14     written here?

15        A.   The first person was found in Zeleni Jadar 5.  And then for the

16     second individual, it's the mass grave of Adzici in the municipality of

17     Bratunac.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Let's continue.  I would now like us to look at the

19     second page of the document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just try to explore --

21             Is there any dispute about certain body parts being found at

22     different locations in this respect?

23             Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  This is the first we're

25     hearing of body parts that were found in the -- in the field and then

Page 42861

 1     found in mass graves, and we don't have the -- you know, a complete idea

 2     of the records, and we would like to get them.  This is, as you pointed

 3     out, a significant issue and the -- the quicker we can get the records

 4     and get to the bottom of it, we'll be able to help.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And cross-examine the person properly.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, this material, I mean, this apparently is

 8     something of substance rather than that who is biased and who is doing

 9     wrong, et cetera, this is a -- and that material was only received two

10     days does not clearly appear in the report.  If you say it's important

11     because it's genocide, take your own work and the work of this expert

12     seriously.  Because, as you may have noticed, I asked some questions

13     about this because this is probably a matter of substance, rather than a

14     lot of things which seem to -- have far less substance, but this was not

15     disclosed in time.  Let's leave it to that at this moment and please

16     proceed, for the time being.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Are we on page 2?

18        Q.   [Interpretation] We can see the fifth name.  It's not actually

19     part of that category.  But I'm going to ask you this.  The next category

20     of examples indicating your reasons for believing that they are linked

21     with combat and mass graves, could you tell us what that is.

22        A.   That is the group of examples that also leads to the possible

23     conclusion that this was done, that asanacija was carried out after

24     combat, and that the bodies were buried in mass graves.  These are

25     statements that I went through of eye-witnesses of the events who

Page 42862

 1     referred to the names of those who were killed in the breakthrough, so I

 2     was tracing those persons to see where they were found, and I found that

 3     some of those persons were exhumed from specific mass graves.  And

 4     according to witness statements that I looked at, they were killed during

 5     breakthrough and they remained on the ground, on the surface.

 6        Q.   Could you please look at the third name on this page.  Are you

 7     able to tell us anything on the basis of that example?

 8        A.   This is a specific example of a person - I will not mention the

 9     name - his brother gave a statement and when he provided the statement to

10     the security organs of the Bosniak side, he said that his brother had

11     died in Kamenica, which we already spoke about, but then the person was

12     exhumed from Glogova 2 and Bljeceva 2 mass graves, meaning that the body

13     parts were exhumed from two graves.

14        Q.   Now we would need to look at page --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm still trying to find on page 2 in e-court, we're

16     dealing with which?  I'm not inviting you to --

17             MR. LUKIC:  Third from the top.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Third name from the top.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that.  Yes.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I think -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Well, that's --

23             MR. LUKIC:  We can say that name, I think.  There is no ...

24     [Overlapping speakers] ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The statement ... yes, I'm the overlapping speaker.

Page 42863

 1     Apologies for that.  Do we have that statement?  Is it in evidence?  Is

 2     it available?  Where is it?

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic.

 5        A.   I cannot say it off the top of my head, if I submitted it or not.

 6     I submitted some statements additionally as well, so I just cannot say it

 7     off the top of my head.  The statements are with me.  I have them.  So I

 8     can provide any of them, if any of them are missing.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald.

10             MR. MacDONALD:  For the last two examples, both of the ones on

11     page 2, we did not receive those statements, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, therefore, we're unable to --

13             MR. LUKIC:  I verified we did not -- because those statements

14     were brought late and we did not have time.  We had that virus, we

15     couldn't upload anything, so we [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You have them?

17             MR. LUKIC:  I didn't even take them from Mr. Pavlovic since I

18     said it was -- it's too late, we cannot upload them but I think that he

19     can check.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

21             MR. LUKIC:  And we are ready and I think that Mr. Pavlovic would

22     agree that he can be recalled for cross-examination if the Prosecution is

23     not ready to proceed and he will be -- can be back in a month.  Because

24     of this issue, we anticipated and he agreed to be back whenever

25     necessary.

Page 42864

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald.

 2             MR. MacDONALD:  We found some statements, Your Honours, from a

 3     search of our own systems, so we do have some cross-examination for

 4     Mr. Pavlovic on this matter.  But depending upon Your Honours' guidance,

 5     it would be whether --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... well, we'll consider how

 7     to proceed whether you would already start cross-examination or that

 8     cross-examination would be postponed or ... we'll consider that.  But at

 9     least it's clear that some of the materials a party may wish to have in

10     order to prepare for cross-examination may not be available at this

11     moment.

12             MR. LUKIC:  And maybe my proposal, if Mr. MacDonald wants to sit

13     with somebody from the Registry and collect from Mr. Pavlovic what they

14     need, then just to be in presence of Registry.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's all practicalities we'll consider.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Okay --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

19             Next page we cannot broadcast.  It's -- and we need page 5.  So

20     it should not be broadcasted so technicians should be warned probably.  I

21     don't know.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you please look at the sixth name on this

23     page.

24        A.   Yes, I see it.

25             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Is the statement

Page 42865

 1     available which is mentioned here?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Give me one second.

 3             It's not disclosed through -- through us.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   What can you tell us?

 7        A.   In the statement of the witness of the event that he provided to

 8     the security organ, it can be seen that that person in question died

 9     during the breakthrough.  I cannot now determine whether they died a

10     natural death or were killed, but they were found in the Zvornik 2 mass

11     grave.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I see only one name.  You're talking about "they."

13     "They were found."

14             Is that the sixth on the list?  I see that one name.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I have one name too, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you explain why you said "they" where we

17     find only one name?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that specific individual was

19     found in the Zvornik 02 grave.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 7 of the

22     document.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And if you have any recollection still looking at

24     the present one, apparently there's witness statement who says he died

25     around Buljim.  Do you remember whether that witness statement was a --

Page 42866

 1     whether he observed him when he died?  Or what did that witness say

 2     exactly about the circumstances of death around Buljim?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I took examples where the

 4     eye-witness said that they saw an individual die or get killed, not that

 5     they heard but that they actually saw the person dying or being killed.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So if we would have a look at that statement, then

 7     we would find that that person saw (redacted) die in the area of

 8     Buljim.  Is that your testimony?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Now, we're talking about a

10     different individual; is that correct?  The one above the one that we

11     were talking about; is that right?

12             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry, I

13     didn't --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  Very well.  I'm not

15     sure if we can mention names.  Here the way it is phrased in the comment,

16     perhaps it's not precise enough, but I was taking examples that I

17     mentioned, i.e., exclusively examples where a witness said that they

18     actually were an eye-witness and saw the person get killed or die.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's then true for entry 5 and 6 of -- because

20     I refer to 5.  I think you refer to 6.  But both are the same in this

21     respect on page 5 in e-court; 5 out of 13.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Well, you talked about name 5 in response to Judge Orie's

25     question.  Now, I would like to ask you about name number 7 on this same

Page 42867

 1     page.  Is that a similar example as the previous one?

 2        A.   Yes.  According to the eye-witness statement, which he gave to

 3     the security organs, this specific person was killed at the beginning of

 4     the breakthrough in the area of Buljim on the 12th of July and was

 5     exhumed from the Cerska mass grave.

 6        Q.   And then what did you tell us?  The people that you cited here as

 7     examples, were they found in primary or secondary, or both in primary and

 8     secondary graves?

 9        A.   From what I was able to see, their bodily remains were found both

10     in primary and secondary graves.

11        Q.   I would just like to say that on page 2 you already dealt with

12     Buljim and person number 5.  Now, I would like to ask you what the next

13     group of examples is that would point to the conclusion that asanacija of

14     the terrain was carried out in 1995 when people killed in combat were

15     buried in mass graves?

16        A.   The next group of examples --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

18             Mr. MacDonald.

19             MR. MacDONALD:  That's an incredibly leading question,

20     Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It's -- it certainly is.  It's, at the same time, of

22     course, it's part of the report so therefore if doesn't -- I mean, the

23     main basis not putting leading questions you bring to mind of a person a

24     certain thought whereas if this is already explained in the report, it is

25     not bringing it to his mind.

Page 42868

 1             MR. MacDONALD:  I would agree but I think Your Honours asked

 2     about where the different groups in this list are and there don't appear

 3     to be any, so I don't understand.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Let's -- let's -- the mere fact that

 5     it's to some extent leading does not result in me ruling that the witness

 6     shouldn't answer the question.

 7             Could you please answer the question?  And if need be, Mr. Lukic

 8     will repeat to you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer that question by

10     Mr. Lukic.  I already started answering.

11             The next group of examples refers to persons who appear in death

12     certificates that are issued after the final identification has been done

13     and they're issued by the court.  So next to the report of final

14     identification, a death certificate is issued.  On the other side of the

15     document, towards the bottom, cause of death is mentioned and while

16     examining the certificates of death in some examples I observed that some

17     persons had sustained injuries from explosive devices and those persons

18     were exhumed from graves, and I enclosed those certificates of death with

19     the report.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just get clarification.

21             The question was the next group and then you also answered about

22     the next group.  Could I be guided as to what group is this that you are

23     talking about?

24             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see page 8 of this document, Your Honour, and

25     then [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 42869

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ... I'm looking -- I see

 2     page 5 of the document.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I first asked the question not to lead.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure, and I understand.  I just --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Okay, yeah.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just want to know what we are talking about.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  And now we are talking about page 8 from this

 8     document.  It will be shortly in front of us.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's better.  Now I have something different.

10             So we're talking about the whole page?

11             MR. LUKIC:  Now I will direct the attention of the witness to

12     Alic, Husein, and we will need ...

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What number is he?

14             MR. LUKIC:  We need row 2 on the right-hand side.  So ...

15             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

16             MR. LUKIC:  It's number 268 and we need right side of the page.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pavlovic, can you see --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... could we

19     see 268.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, it's on the left-hand side.  Can we.  It's 288,

21     sorry.  Or 286.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we are looking at the third row, number 288.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  286 doesn't appear on page 8.

25             MR. LUKIC:  It does.

Page 42870

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me have a look.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it 286 or 288 you are talking about.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Let me check.  I'm semi-blind, Your Honour, you know

 5     that.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I didn't know that.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  It's obvious.  Give me one second.  It's -- it's 288.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you see the name, Husein Alic?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   What can you -- will you please tell us what we should look at on

13     this page and what would you like to explain to us from this page?

14        A.   Looking at the documents from the final identification of this

15     person and while reviewing the certificate of death that is signed by the

16     pathologist in the investigation, I saw that the injuries the person

17     sustained were of -- were caused by explosives and, as a result of that,

18     it seemed to point me in the direction of -- well, I know from the

19     operational sense, I know that the 28th Division was shelled, they ran

20     into mines, and they were also committing suicide by using grenades so

21     these would be possible injuries sustained by those means.  So then I

22     said that after the asanation [as interpreted] these persons were buried

23     in mass graves.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What does that prove apart from that we haven't seen

25     the -- the post-mortem?  At least I'm not aware of it.  What does it

Page 42871

 1     prove?  It's -- you suggest, I think, that he must have died in a combat

 2     situation where explosives were used.  Could it be any other environment

 3     where explosives were used?  I mean, what's your conclusion?  Apart from

 4     that a person which apparently died from explosive -- I don't know yet,

 5     shrapnel or other things.  He was found in a mass grave.  That's

 6     apparently the facts you rely on.  What does that tell us?  More than

 7     what I said.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I mentioned, I relied on witness

 9     statements and ABiH military documents.  It is clear from those sources

10     that the 28th Division was exposed to heavy artillery shelling.  They

11     came upon minefields and committed suicide; in certain cases by hand

12     grenade.  That is why I found it interesting, given the context and that

13     there is a possibility, in addition to other evidence I mentioned, that

14     this, too, could lead us to the assumption that after combat there was

15     asanacija and that people were buried in mass graves.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But could you exclude that explosives were

17     used in other circumstances?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In terms of this specific location,

19     I can't say anything.  I'm simply trying to raise an issue, open up a

20     possibility.  I did not draw a conclusion.  There is a possibility that

21     would be in keeping with some other sources.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I now better understand.

23             Mr. Lukic, those materials, are they available?  Because you

24     point at a specific example, so I take it that you have reviewed the

25     underlying documentation.  Apart from the format of this part of the

Page 42872

 1     report being totally different from what we saw before, any explanation

 2     for that to be elicited from the witness?

 3             Witness, we see numbers; not sequential.  We see all kind of

 4     information.  That's quite different from what we saw in the beginning.

 5     What explains the difference in format between the beginning of this

 6     report and the present portion we're looking at?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is it a question for me?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  [Interpretation] As I said already, this was

10     a kind of overview of mine of certain examples that I forwarded to the

11     Defence, and this is how they decided to present it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I then understand that the Defence has created

13     these green lines, et cetera, totally different from these first part of

14     these examples, and if what is the case I'd like to know.  Mr. Lukic

15     seems to be nodding no.  So he is apparently not accepting an answer

16     which says that you gave it to the Defence and it was formatted by them.

17             MR. LUKIC:  We merged those two documents into one.  That's what

18     we did but we didn't put this green --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Where does this material come from?  Let's say on

20     from page 8 where the different format starts and of which we see now the

21     first page, page 8 to 12, I think, or perhaps even 13.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

23             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... which is a totally

24     different format.  Could you tell us where you got that from?  Witness.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I created this overview, and, in

Page 42873

 1     principle, there were two different formats, but the issue on hand is the

 2     same.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The numbers we start with, that is, the

 4     very -- the grave-site number, where is that taken from and what does it

 5     present?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you can see -- I'm sorry.  This

 7     is basic information about each location.  It's a kind of overview.  As I

 8     was going through everything, I was creating a sort of an outline or

 9     overview for me to find things more easily.  That is what I relied on.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I was talking about numbers.  I see that the first

11     entry bears number 281; the second is 286; the third is 288.  That at

12     least suggests that there was a list with sequential numbers.  Is it

13     taken from any other list?  What do these numbers stand for?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I copied it from different sources.

15     I can't recall exactly what the figures stand for precisely.  The number

16     is unimportant to me specifically.  There's no reason for me to deal with

17     it.  What was important to me for my work were the co-ordinates the

18     exhumation dates, locations, designation of location, that is what was

19     important for my work.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it may -- if we are in these kind of numbers,

21     it suggests that there were over 200 and even goes far beyond that.

22             Numbers of grave-sites, is that a mass grave-site, is that an

23     individual grave?  Because I see that the co-ordinates are quite

24     different as well.  As far as I can see now, none of them corresponds

25     with another, which suggests a lot of graves and that may be relevant for

Page 42874

 1     us.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The co-ordinates describe

 3     particular locations and they have to vary from location to location.

 4     When discussing specific events there were many exhumations and asanacija

 5     exercises.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, sometimes if you have a mass grave the

 7     co-ordinate would be the same, isn't it.  You would have a lot of bodies

 8     in exactly the same location.  Yes.  Okay.  You apparently agree with

 9     that.  Now, if you have 200 or 300 different locations, then we are

10     apparently moving from mass graves to individual graves and therefore I'm

11     asking you what does this all mean?  Are these people found in individual

12     graves, are these people found in mass graves and ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we go to the right of the table,

14     you will see the type of grave.  Is it a mass grave, individual grave, is

15     it asanacija, meaning on the surface.  But we need to go to the right of

16     the table.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's do so.  Because we'd like to understand

18     what is presented to us as evidence.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's good.  Each line describes a

20     location, and it is stated whether it is a primary or secondary mass

21     grave or is it part of asanacija.  Every line stands for one location,

22     and it also includes some of my comments with regard to specific

23     locations.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say "every line," which line are you

25     talking about?

Page 42875

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lines from left to right.  I'm

 2     not discussing columns.  I'm discussing the lines.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I see two columns.  One is MG, mass grave; and the

 5     next column is type of grave.

 6             Now, the mass grave, there are numbers with it.  What do these

 7     numbers stand for?  For the number of dead people found there or --

 8     what -- what does it mean?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the total number of bodies

10     and parts of bodies found in a specific mass grave, be it primary or

11     secondary, as we can see in the next column.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which seems to suggest that there were a lot

13     of different mass graves dealt with here.  Because we have all different

14     numbers, 1 -- 288, 224, 242, 200, 305, 244.  These are all different mass

15     graves then.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And do you have a complete list of mass graves which

18     were considered?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We see here the mass graves that

20     were encompassed in my work.  It doesn't mean they are all here, and it

21     does not include such locations where mortal remains were found on the

22     ground.  This is just a portion that was important to me for what I was

23     doing.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question was:  Do you have a complete list of

25     mass graves which you considered?  Do you know how many mass graves

Page 42876

 1     you -- you looked at, you considered?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the list more or less, the

 3     one I dealt with.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did deal with a full list of all

 6     mass or individual graves.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But just --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is not the question.  The question is the

10     full list of the graves that you looked at, that you investigated, not

11     the full list of graves, of mass graves, but the list of those that you

12     considered.  These ones, how many are they?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The list is before us.  This is the

14     list.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So we move a little bit to the left, further

17     to the left of this.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To the left.  Not to the right.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then I have --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's it.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I would like to go to the beginning of this page.

23     Yeah.  That's here.  Here.  Here.  Here.

24             Now if you look at the heading in red, it says grave-site number.

25     Now, my -- from that, I read and I thought you explained that earlier,

Page 42877

 1     that the 281 is the number of the grave.  Is that what you said?  At some

 2     stage you said it didn't mean anything to you, but then you later said it

 3     was the number of the grave.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the number of location

 5     chronologically, either of a mass grave or a location where bodies were

 6     found on the surface.  That's all.  It was unimportant to me.  What was

 7     important to me was to have the location, the date, what was found --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you are

 9     explaining something that I'm not asking.

10             Let me ask.  We see on this page, the highest number is 344.

11     Assuming that that is -- I'm just making an assumption that is the

12     highest number of these graves here.  Is it -- does it mean that, in

13     fact, you saw 344 -- or there were 344 graves around?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you are discussing the topic or

15     theme of my work, I did, say, 200 exhumations per day.  In the course of

16     my work, over 700 were performed there were many exhumations an examples

17     of asanacija.  So those figures are great.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But a great number of people can be found in one

19     grave.  I'm not talking about the number of people exhumed.  I am not

20     talking about the number of graves from where exhumations took place.

21     I'm asking:  Should we accept that the number of graves, whether they are

22     mass graves or single graves, goes up to 344.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Are you discussing a specific

24     event or are you talking about exhumations in general in Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina?

Page 42878

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not about a specific, I'm not asking about

 2     exhumations.  I'm talking about the number of graves out of which

 3     exhumations took place.  I'm saying is it your evidence that right

 4     through the war the number of various graves that can be associated does

 5     go as far as 344, possibly more because you didn't investigate all of

 6     them.

 7             So 344 would be the number of graves the heading says grave-site

 8     number.  So number of the grave-site, that's what the heading says, and

 9     I'm saying:  Were there 344 grave-sites?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Bosnia and Herzegovina, there

11     were many grave-sites, many more than 344.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You've answered my question.  That's all I've been

13     asking for, for all this time.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, could I, a bit on the same subject.  Could we

15     move slightly further to the right.  Yes, there we are.  That's what I

16     need.

17             We see one column, type of grave.  On the first entry, it says:

18     Secondary mass grave and the line before that, it says MG, mass grave,

19     and gives a number.  You told us that that is the number of bodies

20     exhumed from that mass grave.  Is that well understood?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I ask you to move just a

22     little further to the right, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is good.  Thank you.

25             It actually represents examples from the fourth group, as I refer

Page 42879

 1     to it, that I found interesting.

 2             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- as can you see --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you mind to answer my question.

 5             288, did I well understand that, for the first entry, that 288 is

 6     the number of persons exhumed from that mass grave?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the total number.  We are

 8     discussing the column before the column where we see secondary mass

 9     grave.  So 288.  It's the total number of bodies and bodily parts exhumed

10     from that specific mass grave.  So full bodies and parts of bodies.  And

11     then I classified it further.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So these classifications are done by you?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked on the column entitled:

14     Complete bodies.  I checked that and I can explain why.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you check it or did you establish it?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I arrived at these figures by

17     checking the documents I had at my disposal, which I have already

18     referenced.  I can explain what it means and what I did.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I now slowly start seeing what the document is

20     about.  Took me a while but that's perhaps I'm a bit slow.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

22             Mr. MacDonald.

23             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             Just for the record to say that again the Prosecution was unaware

25     these were two different reports, nor had the Defence formatted them, nor

Page 42880

 1     have we the underlying material.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's hereby on the record.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] You mentioned the fourth category.  Please

 6     explain what you wanted to say.  We already dealt with the first three.

 7     What would be the fourth?

 8        A.   In trying to trace the bodies of those who perished in the

 9     breakthrough, what struck me as illogical was that there was a certain

10     number of complete bodies in graves defined as secondary mass graves.  In

11     keeping with our practice and based on my experience in the sector and

12     that of my colleagues, it was illogical to have such high numbers of

13     complete bodies in secondary graves, because those bodies are usually dug

14     up by construction machinery and put on a truck and then unloaded from

15     the truck into the next grave after a certain period of time.  So there

16     should have been decay of tissue and dispersion, literally put.  The

17     bodies must have fallen apart to a certain extent, and that raised

18     issues.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I think no one asked the picture to be moved.  Could

20     we go back to where we were.  Yes.

21             So you're surprised by the number of complete bodies in the

22     secondary mass graves.  Let's have a look at entry number 1, yes, we

23     leave it to that secondary mass grave, complete bodies 50, body parts

24     238.  For the second, could you explain what body parts there means

25     because you said 224 was the number of bodies exhumed.  Complete bodies,

Page 42881

 1     224.  And apparently some 47 other things remained there as well.

 2             Do you know what that stands for, 47 cases BP or RAV01-?-?  What

 3     does that stand for?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now we're talking about a primary

 5     grave at Ravnice Glogova.

 6             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... we'll move onto

 7     the next one.  It's the secondary grave at entry number 3.  Twenty-six

 8     complete bodies, where 242 were exhumed.

 9             Next item, secondary mass grave 59 complete bodies.

10             Next one, secondary mass grave out of 305, 9 complete bodies.

11             Next entry, 79 complete bodies out of 244.  You say you were

12     surprised by the number because you would expect body parts to fall off.

13     If I read this, most of the bodies were incomplete and only a very

14     limited number anywhere between -- I would say anywhere between 5 and 25

15     or 30 per cent were complete bodies.  What did then surprise you so much

16     about these numbers?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If a body part found in a mass

18     grave doesn't mean it's an entity in and of itself.  As you can see, if

19     you look at the fourth secondary mass grave, 200 were exhumed, 200

20     complete body parts, out of those, there were 59 complete bodies and 98

21     entities arrived from the location in total.

22             It means that a number of different body parts can represent a

23     single entity.  If we look at the sixth example of Kamenica Cancari 02;

24     244 was the total of remains exhumed.  Out of that 79 complete bodies,

25     165 body parts and out of that, 113 were identified.  In other words,

Page 42882

 1     body parts -- a number of body parts usually means that they may belong

 2     to a single set of bones so out of 113 total identified there were 79

 3     complete bodies, and the rest of these identities were arrived at based

 4     on the study of the body parts assembled rather than complete bodies.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Although it's not an answer to my question, I

 6     noticed that where you earlier said that the number in the column mass

 7     grave with a number was bodies exhumed and you apparently now are telling

 8     me, which perhaps may be very logical that it's not bodies exhumed from

 9     that, but that it could be bodies or body parts.

10             Please proceed.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do, in this column where you say ID

12     total, you call that entities.  What do you mean by entities?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Actually I meant to say identity.

14     Identity of a person.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Does -- I do understand that that's then -- how many

17     individuals with distinct features could be established on the basis of

18     what was found in a mass grave; for example, by identification through

19     DNA?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It means what the final

21     number of those who were identified by DNA analysis was.

22             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

23             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

25             Yes, Mr. MacDonald.

Page 42883

 1             MR. MacDONALD:  Just very briefly, Your Honour.

 2             It appears from the answer to Mr. Lukic's question, the witness

 3     states there should have been decay of tissue and dispersion, literally

 4     put.  And that, as a basis for his categorisation here, the Prosecution's

 5     submission this is far outside of his expertise.  He is not a forensic

 6     pathologist, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Though it could be part of the experience of

 8     someone who is involved in identification.  Because the different body

 9     parts may play a role in double identification.  So it's on the record,

10     but I would not be too much concerned about that.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you think the job is finished after producing

14     this table?

15        A.   No.  These are simply some of my observations based on experience

16     and expertise.  I raised issues.  As is generally the case concerning

17     these events, investigative measures need to be performed in order to see

18     why this was possible, how was it possible that there was such a high

19     number of complete bodies as well as the rest, how it all came about.

20        Q.   You attended these exhumations.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you see what kind of machinery was used?

23        A.   For the most part, they were loaders with a fork --

24        Q.   How big is this fork or spoon?

25        A.   It can be up to 2 metres or so.  Then diggers are also used with

Page 42884

 1     the spoon moving from up/down to put the load onto a truck.  That one is

 2     about 1 and a half metres, I think.  But I can't really say anything

 3     specifically.  It needs to be checked.  I don't know what specific kind

 4     of machinery was used to dig up the primary graves and how the load was

 5     put onto trucks.  Depends on specific cases.  And I think it is

 6     important; however, I do not have the necessary information to comment.

 7     I do suppose, though, that similar machinery was used to the machinery

 8     that we have.

 9        Q.   Let's look at page 2 briefly because there's a name we will need.

10             The third name on the page, Amir Zukanovic.  According to the

11     statement of a witness he died at the beginning of the breakthrough.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are we on the right page?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the page.  The fifth

14     person.

15             MR. LUKIC:  It's the fifth person.  Sorry.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do keep this name in mind.

19             Let us look at [In English] [Previous translation continues] ...

20     that this document is not for broadcast.  It is P01901.  It's ICMP list.

21     And we need page 209 in English.  English version only, please.  We don't

22     need B/C/S.

23             [Interpretation] We see that very name in the fourth line of this

24     document.  Although there were witnesses who claimed that he was killed,

25     he is on this list.

Page 42885

 1             In your view, is it fine to have somebody who is claimed to have

 2     been killed found on the ICMP list?

 3        A.   I don't see anything strange with this person being on the list.

 4     This is the list of missing persons as reported by their family members.

 5     So we should have all those included who potentially died during the

 6     breakthrough.  These are all of the people who died through the

 7     breakthrough under different circumstances and their families were not

 8     familiar with their fate.  So there is nothing there that would be in

 9     dispute.  I think one of the Judges also commented upon it when

10     Mr. Milutin Misic was testifying the date and place of disappearance as

11     designated here is only initial information in order to continue

12     searching for that person.  I don't see anything problematic about this,

13     if I understood your question correctly.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.  But can I understand something about the

15     last part of your answer.  You're saying it is initial information in

16     order to continue searching for that person.

17             I see this very number 4 person, it looks like this person's

18     remains were found in a grave-site in Cerska.  Is there anything that

19     still needs to be done if he has been found and identified.  We say he is

20     identified.  What still has to be done with him?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a list with the first and

22     last name and everything else, including the preliminary information as

23     to where the person was reported to have gone missing.  But specifically

24     the judicial and investigative information, it's investigation I don't

25     know where that was done and I don't know where the person was assumed to

Page 42886

 1     have gone missing.  This is a list to trace or search for missing

 2     persons.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you said this

 4     is a list which must be used to continue searching for the person.  I'm

 5     saying the last column says grave-site and my understanding -- if I

 6     misunderstand, please tell me.  My reading means that the first person

 7     was found in Zeleni Jadar grave-site.  Other one in Ravnice.  Other one

 8     in Sandici.  My question to you was:  If the remains are found in the

 9     grave-site, why do you say their search must still be continued?  They've

10     been found.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  In that specific case, yes.

12     All I said was that all the persons were there who were killed in the

13     breakthrough, in combat and everybody else is there as well.  So I don't

14     see anything of dispute in the fact that that person is located there.

15     When I meant further investigation, I meant persons who had still not

16     been identified.  Perhaps I made an error there.  I focussed on the place

17     where it says date and place of disappearance.  This is the starting

18     point for the information.  This is where the process begins.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and what we have to do, first of all, is to

21     look at that statement of a person who gave information about when and

22     where he died because the quote is about the moment but just limited to

23     that.  And that's, of course, what the Chamber would like to have a look

24     at, to be able to further explore what now appears on this list and

25     whether what that tells us.

Page 42887

 1             Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.  You said you needed ten

 2     minutes.  We went through a few things.  Well, I think, as a matter of

 3     fact, overall that you had your ten minutes and you had got far more

 4     information by questions put by the Chamber.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I finished.  I just want to tender this document.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  So then we would like to hear from the Prosecution

 8     how would they like to proceed.  Obviously, they cannot finish today.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we don't need to do that in the presence of the

10     witness.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is this document number?

12             MR. LUKIC:  It's 1D06331.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please activate your microphone.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  1D6331 will be Exhibit D1399 under seal.

17             MR. MacDONALD:  Sorry, Your Honours.  The Prosecution would

18     object to this document coming in at this time.  There's a whole number

19     of reasons for that.  Firstly, the late receipt of this, the lack of the

20     underlying materials.  Beyond that, we consider this list, in essence, to

21     be part of the report.  It's the analysis of the accused -- witness, my

22     apologies, and we consider it should have been part of his report.  On

23     that basis, we would ask Your Honours to treat it in the same way.  MFI

24     it just now, hear cross-examination on it, potentially some more things

25     and then decide in the due course of time whether Your Honours also

Page 42888

 1     accept it or not.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  We do not object to this approach.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, I would like to have it MFI'd.  I

 4     would like to repeat the number.  I've forgotten it, and it does not yet

 5     already appear on the transcript.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  D1399.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 1D06331 will be MFI D1399, under seal.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D1399 is marked for identification.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And why is it under seal?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Because the parties indicated that at least some of

11     the pages were containing confidential information.  Therefore, it's

12     marked for identification, under seal.

13             Witness, you may already follow the usher.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We were just considering how to proceed,

17     Mr. MacDonald.  The first question is whether we'd try to finish the

18     cross-examination of this witness today which seems not to be feasible.

19     Because there's too many open matters, especially underlying materials

20     which are not clarified.  That's one.

21             The second issue is that if such materials would be provided, we

22     should find a way to communicate with the witness what he's expected to

23     provide because the Defence, at this moment, is not in a position to

24     further sit down with him anymore.

25             Our initial thoughts now are that we would not start the

Page 42889

 1     cross-examination today.  That we would do that early February.  And,

 2     second, that the Defence and the Prosecution would sit together and to

 3     make a list of materials, either by a precise description such as witness

 4     statement of Mr. A, B, and C, referred to in this document, page

 5     so-and-so, entry 3, and perhaps in more general terms, we'd like to have

 6     any database produced by whatever -- I mean, you have gone through his

 7     report.  Sometimes it's clear what he relied on.  Sometimes it's less

 8     clear.  And there, of course, we would -- you may not be in a position to

 9     identify with utmost precision what you are seeking but at least you

10     could give a hint at what you need so as in order to prepare for

11     cross-examination.  Those would be our thoughts at this moment.  I give

12     you until after the break to consider that and perhaps even discuss it

13     amongst yourselves, and if we would not continue today, then I would have

14     a bit of a list of agenda items still to be considered today.

15             MR. MacDONALD:  Just one comment, Your Honours.  If you don't

16     mind, the Prosecution would request to begin cross-examination today, in

17     particular with the list my friend has gone over with the witness.  We

18     believe that we can begin to cross-examine him effectively given some of

19     the materials we have.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You think it really be important to start.  And how

21     much time would you need for that.

22             MR. MacDONALD:  I would hope to finish with materials we have

23     found I would hope to be finish that topic today, Your Honours.  If we

24     had about 40 minutes perhaps and then perhaps continue with the new

25     materials.

Page 42890

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We have after the break we would have another 25

 2     minutes and we could extend until, if that is agreeable for the Defence -

 3     Mr. Lukic, could you carefully listen as well - we can continue today

 4     until 3.00 at the ultimate.  But we have a few matters as well we'd like

 5     to raise.  If you say you can make -- and if you prefer to start your

 6     cross-examination and, well, let's say, use 40 minutes today, you would

 7     have from ten minutes to 2.00 to 2.30 and then half an hour would be left

 8     to deal with some agenda items.  We'll consider that for a possibility

 9     and then the witness to be re-called for further cross-examination.

10             Mr. Lukic, any comments on this.

11             MR. LUKIC:  No comments at all.  Whatever Your Honours find

12     appropriate.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I wouldn't be so generous if I were you.

14             We take a break and resume at ten minutes to 2.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 1.27 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 1.50 p.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Have the parties met already to see how they could

18     organise getting additional background materials from the witness?

19             MR. MacDONALD:  No, Your Honour.  Not yet.  And in terms of what

20     Your Honours thoughts were, the Prosecution would have the following

21     comments.  That this witness appears to have brought material which my

22     friend refused to take and we don't know what's in there.  We don't know

23     the universe of that material so in terms of making a list of what we

24     don't have, it's not possible for us to do that.  So we would like all

25     the material that the witness brought, Your Honour.

Page 42891

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that point.  The witness at one point in

 2     time said that he consulted hundreds of thousands of documents.  I don't

 3     know whether you're seeking hundreds of thousands of documents.  And the

 4     reason why I referred to that is because sometimes it is clear that

 5     relies on materials which is not available and there is a clear reference

 6     to a statement of Witness A or B or C and to include to start with and if

 7     you'd like to have the other 900.000 documents, then try to phrase it in

 8     such a way.

 9             MR. MacDONALD:  I can say just now, Your Honour, certainly the

10     witness statements the witness has identified he relies upon.  But

11     there's also, if Your Honour would recall, he said he checked databases

12     at his work.  We need that as well.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess what Judge Orie is trying to say is that

14     maybe, instead of asking for materials that he brought, you must ask fro

15     materials that he relied on for his report.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's -- Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I know that we provided Mr. Pavlovic with the

18     documents disclosed by the Prosecution to us.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             MR. LUKIC:  So that's why [Overlapping speakers] ...

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have a list of documents you provided to the

22     expert then it might be helpful and therefore it's good if you would

23     meet, that you make a list of what those materials are.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Those are batches we received from the Prosecution.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That may already assist.  Perhaps not in

Page 42892

 1     every detail.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I apologise, Your Honour, but it's very clear

 3     that this man brought materials that he refused to take and said it was

 4     too late.  That's what we want.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  As well as everything he reasonably relied on and

 7     we can work that out.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's first start --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Just for the record, we do not object to any

10     disclosure by this witness.  I'm just telling you that really hundreds of

11     thousands of documents that he went through and whether he read

12     everything we don't know.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well.

14             Mr. Pavlovic, we'll now start with the cross-examination of you.

15     We'll go on until approximately 2.30, perhaps 2.35.  I do understand that

16     you feel a bit tired.  That will not conclude your evidence in this

17     courtroom.  We'll give you further instructions and we'll further address

18     this matter at the end of the first part of the cross-examination.

19             You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. MacDonald.  Perhaps if you

20     move to him and -- yes, you wanted to ask me something?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I don't know if I

22     have the right to say so.  But, actually, I am not feeling very well.

23     Before the end of the previous session I was actually thinking about

24     asking you to cut the hearing short.  I do have some physical limitations

25     in the neck area, and I am not feeling that well.  So what I would like

Page 42893

 1     to ask you, is if I may be excused from testifying further today, if we

 2     could finish today, because I'm not able to continue.  I'm concerned that

 3     I will just simply not be able to focus enough and follow the proceedings

 4     if we continue the way that I'm feeling now.

 5             So that is what I wanted to ask you, Your Honour, if possible.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we decide on your request, I'd like to hear

 7     from the parties.  I'm especially interested to hear from the parties

 8     because the Chamber felt that the Prosecution had a certain specific

 9     interest in starting cross-examination today.

10             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honour, and if I may add, we will

11     address some of the examples that Mr. Lukic addressed with the witness,

12     and we believe we've found some of the documents that Your Honour was

13     asking for, that Mr. Pavlovic relied upon.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that point.  But do we -- the issue was

15     whether we could continue at this very moment or not.  That's the issue.

16     It is clear that you had -- apparently a keen interest in starting today

17     rather than to wait for another four or five weeks, six weeks.  If

18     there's any specific point which you'd like to raise in a shorter period

19     of time, we'd like to know.

20             MR. MacDONALD:  Not beyond the submissions we've made.  If the

21     witness is feeling ill, it's in Your Honours' hands with regards to what

22     happens.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I just know that Mr. Pavlovic cannot sit for a long

25     time.  While we were working he had to stand up and stand for a while --

Page 42894

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

 2             MR. LUKIC:  What?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll not invite him to stand to give his testimony.

 4     That's ...

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll meet your request, Witness.  That is, that

 7     we'll not yet adjourn but at least that we'll not continue to hear your

 8     evidence at this moment, and we'd like to see you back somewhere early in

 9     February.  Perhaps it would be best to start with this witness as the

10     first witness.

11             I, again, instruct you that you should not speak about your

12     testimony with whomever or communicate in writing, whatever, but whatever

13     means, testimony already given or still to be given and that would be

14     valid for the -- until you reappear in this courtroom.

15             Apart from that, you may have noticed that this Chamber was often

16     seeking access to materials underlying either your report or certainly

17     the document we discussed where you gave us, you said, examples of -- of

18     where you had question marks, at least matters you thought to be further

19     explored.  That's one category.

20             Then, second, you apparently brought materials to The Hague where

21     there was insufficient time for the Defence to go through them with you.

22     Could you tell us how much material that is?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a lot.  A lot of material that

24     I went through.  But what I've understood what this refers to, it refers

25     to this last material that we were going through.  Mainly witness

Page 42895

 1     statements, witnesses who saw people killed during the breakthrough.  And

 2     I think that is what is missing.  Certain statements.

 3             At this point, though, I cannot say whether I found the

 4     statements in the documents that I received from the Defence.  I assume

 5     that that was so for the majority of the cases and then also --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Whatever you brought to The Hague, are you willing

 7     to share that with the Chamber and you give it to the Victims and Witness

 8     Section?  Because you're not in a position to discuss the matters either

 9     with the Prosecution or with the Defence.  Are you willing to share all

10     that material you brought to The Hague with the Tribunal?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, of course, that's what I

12     was told by the Defence also when I received it that it was strictly

13     confidential that I cannot show it anywhere, and that when we finish with

14     my testimony, to return the entire material to the Defence.  And all the

15     rest that I used --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... all the rest

17     that you used ...

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The rest that I used, if it's not

19     from the database of documents that I got from the Defence, of course,

20     I'm going to make everything available to you.  Because, of course, I

21     wouldn't have used it in the first place if I didn't intend to provide

22     that as documentation that I used in the process of my work.  I hope that

23     that is clear.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You're therefore invited -- could you make that

25     available in electronic format, those materials.

Page 42896

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, of course.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Because if it's a lot perhaps it's better to

 3     start -- and would you keep any originals that you may have apart from

 4     giving electronic versions to the Victims and Witness Section.  That

 5     would also include databases, whatever you used, because we were

 6     struggling with the supporting materials.

 7             When do you think you could make that available, if it's ...

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tomorrow.  I'm going to sit down

 9     today to try and find everything and to give it to the service, as you

10     called it, the section for Victims and Witnesses.  I assume that they

11     will get in touch with me, that they will be in touch with me, so that I

12     could give these materials to them.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  They certainly will be in touch with you.

14     It's highly appreciated that you want to do it immediately that the

15     Prosecution has sufficient time to further review those materials.

16             Well, I have given you my instructions.  I would like to thank

17     you for your co-operation in providing us the materials.

18             Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I'm sorry, also if Mr. Pavlovic used any

20     database apart from our database maybe, I don't know, what he used, maybe

21     something -- it's something from other organisations.  Maybe he should be

22     instructed to share that with Your Honours as well.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I thought that was included in my instructions

24     but to avoid any lack of clarity.  Whatever you used as databases also

25     perhaps what you didn't get from the Defence, if you have any other

Page 42897

 1     databases which I used, don't hesitate to include those in the materials

 2     you are providing to us.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Including the materials that I

 4     received from the Defence.  That is also what you mean, isn't it?  Right.

 5     Right.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Everything.  Because we want to avoid that in a

 7     month's time, we are sitting here and have to establish that we still do

 8     not have access or at least, the parties would not have access to

 9     underlying materials.

10             Then you excused for the moment.  You'll hear when -- through the

11     Victims and Witness Section when we'd like to see you back.  If there are

12     any dates when you are not available - I'm thinking in terms of the first

13     half of February - please inform the Victims and Witness Section about

14     unavailability in that period of time.

15             THE WITNESS:  Mm-hm.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you may now follow the usher.  I hope that you

17     feel better soon.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for your

19     understanding.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll use the time to deal with a few matters

22     on the agenda.  The Chamber always tries to have an empty agenda before

23     we go for longer periods of recess.  In order to avoid any

24     misunderstanding when I announced an extended session prior to that we

25     had explored to that extent that was possible at all, and, again, we

Page 42898

 1     found great co-operation by those assisting us in this courtroom.

 2             I'll start with a first item dealing with final trial briefs.

 3             Last week, the parties made submissions in court in relation to

 4     the final trial briefs.  The Chamber grants the parties' request to fix

 5     the word limit to 300.000 words.  In relation to timing, the Chamber

 6     considers that it is still too early to address how many weeks or months

 7     after future events the final briefs should be filed.  There are a number

 8     of Defence witnesses remaining, the Chamber may take some time to decide

 9     on all evidentiary matters prior to closing the Defence case.  There will

10     be a rebuttal and possible rejoinder case and the Chamber may require

11     some time finally to close the entire case with the filing of the last

12     evidentiary decision.

13             The Chamber has taken note of the parties' submissions but

14     maintains that any periods of non-sitting, for example, this coming

15     January, must also be used by the parties for its final brief

16     preparations.  The Chamber will not grant an extended period of time

17     after the close of the case for the preparation of final briefs,

18     especially if the parties had various opportunities to prepare prior to

19     the closure.

20             I move onto my next item, and we move into private session for

21     that.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 42899

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

18             Next item deals with documents used with Yasushi Akashi.

19             During Akashi's testimony on the 23 and 24th of November, exhibit

20     numbers were reserved for a number of documents pending the Prosecution

21     uploading excerpts.  The Prosecution informed the Defence and the Chamber

22     via an e-mail on the 26th of November that the excerpts had been uploaded

23     into e-court.  The Defence has not objected.  In light of this, the

24     Chamber instructs the Registry to carry out the following changes:

25             1.  Replace P7692 with the B/C/S excerpt and corresponding

Page 42900

 1     English translation uploaded into e-court as Rule 65 ter number 11148a.

 2             2.  Replace P7693 with the excerpted pages uploaded into e-court

 3     as Rule 65 ter number 02393a.

 4             3.  Attach the excerpted pages uploaded into e-court as Rule 65

 5     ter number 04472a to P7704.

 6             P7692, P7693, and P7704 are hereby admitted into evidence.

 7             Next item still deals with associated exhibits related to the

 8     same witness.

 9             On 23 November the Defence stated that it would try, at the end

10     of the witness's testimony, to reduce the number of associated exhibits

11     tendered pursuant to Yasushi Akashi's Rule 92 ter motion.  This can be

12     found at transcript pages 41679 through 682.  Ultimately, there was

13     insufficient time to give the Defence the opportunity to do so in court.

14     The Chamber hereby gives the Defence one week to make submissions on this

15     matter.

16             Next item deals with P7541 tendered through Radoje Vojvodic.

17             On the 8th of September of this year, P7541, a list of military

18     observers, was marked for identification, pending the provision of an

19     English translation.  This can be found at transcript page 38837.

20             On the 10th of December, the Prosecution informed the Chamber and

21     the Defence via e-mail that an English translation has been uploaded

22     under doc ID 0687-4507-ET.  The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to

23     attach this translation to the original and admits P7541 into evidence.

24             Should the Defence dispute the translation, it may inform the

25     Prosecution and the Chamber within a week, but should then submit the

Page 42901

 1     document to CLSS for verification.

 2             Next item is an oral decision on the admission of P7449 through

 3     P7453 all tendered through expert witness Ewa Tabeau on 2 July 2015

 4     during the reopening of the Prosecution's case in-chief.

 5             In relation to P7449 through P7453, Tabeau's proof of death

 6     report for Tomasica, the corrigendum to the report, the annexes to the

 7     report, an addendum to the report, and a PowerPoint presentation of the

 8     report, the Defence submits that it does not have access to Tabeau's

 9     "keys" matching victims and therefore the report's methodology is up

10     clear.

11             This can be found at transcript pages 36879 to 36881.

12             The Defence also submits at transcript page 36879 that the:

13     "...numerous errors in the report and the perceived bias of the witness

14     do not render the report to be of an expert such that it would assist the

15     Chamber."

16             Furthermore, in relation to P7453, the PowerPoint presentation,

17     the Defence argues that to the extent it provides additional information

18     beyond that contained in the report, such information was not provided in

19     a timely manner in accordance Rule 94 bis, since it was only provided to

20     the Defence on 30th of June 2015, just days before the witness testified.

21     These submissions can be found on transcript page 36883.

22             In response, the Prosecution submits that P7453, the PowerPoint

23     presentation is merely a exemplification of the report to facilitate the

24     presentation of Tabeau's evidence in court and that while it includes

25     some corrections to the report, those corrections were already included

Page 42902

 1     in P7450 which is the corrigendum.  These submissions can be found on

 2     transcript page 36884.  In relation to the "keys":  The Prosecution

 3     submits that the methodology is clearly spelled out in the report and

 4     also refers to it included in previous reports already admitted into

 5     evidence.  This submission can be found at transcript page 36880.

 6             The Chamber recalls that the applicable law for the admission of

 7     evidence is set out in Rule 89(C) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,

 8     which allows a chamber to admit any relevant evidence which it deems to

 9     have probative value.  Although Rule 94 bis does not provide specific

10     guide-lines on the admissibility of expert evidence, the jurisprudence

11     has established the following requirements for the admissibility of an

12     expert report:  The proposed witness is qualified as an expert, the

13     expert report is relevant and of probative value, and the content of the

14     expert report falls within the accepted expertise of the expert witness.

15             The Chamber notes its decisions of the 7th of November, 2013 and

16     the 24th of February, 2015 recognizing Tabeau as an expert in the field

17     of demographics and statistics more generally, and that the proof of

18     death report for Tomasica and the related documents fall within the scope

19     of her expertise.

20             The Chamber finds that Tabeau's proof of death report for

21     Tomasica and the related documents are relevant because they relate

22     directly to the re-opening of the Prosecution's case - namely, exhumation

23     of the Tomasica grave-site.

24             In relation to the Defence submissions about not having access to

25     Tabeau's "keys" and that the reports methodology is unclear, the Chamber

Page 42903

 1     notes that the report's methodology is set out in section 2 of the report

 2     and therefore this submission is unsubstantiated.  Further, the Chamber

 3     understands that the Prosecution had offered previously to make these

 4     "keys" available once they had been recreated.  This can be found at

 5     transcript page 36880.  To the extent that the Prosecution has not made

 6     these "keys" available to the Defence as to today's date, the Chamber

 7     invites the Prosecution to make them available to the Defence at its

 8     earliest possible convenience.

 9             With regard to the Defence submissions concerning errors and

10     bias, the Chamber does not exclude the possibility that errors and

11     elements that could be perceived as expressions of bias could reach a

12     level so as to deprive an expert report of its probative value.  The

13     Chamber has admitted expert reports in this case that contain some errors

14     and were not always entirely free from elements that could be perceived

15     as expressions of bias.  In its evaluation of the expert reports, as with

16     all evidence, the Chamber will consider such errors and elements when

17     assessing the weight to be accorded to the evidence.  The Defence has not

18     demonstrated that the errors and alleged bias reach such a level so as to

19     deprive the relevant documents of their probative value.  The Chamber

20     therefore finds that Tabeau's proof of death report and the related

21     documents have probative value and are admissible pursuant to Rule 89(C)

22     of the Rules.

23             The Chamber considers P7453, the PowerPoint presentation of the

24     report, to be a demonstrative exhibit only and therefore finds that the

25     Defence concerns in relation to the timing of its disclosure and its

Page 42904

 1     content are without merit.

 2             Therefore, the Chamber considers that P7449 through P7453 meet

 3     the standards of admission pursuant to Rules 89(C) and 94 bis of the

 4     Rules and admitted them into evidence.

 5             P7451 and P7452 are to remain under seal.

 6             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

 7             I now move on to the Rule 92 bis attestation for the redacted

 8     statement of Witness Miroslav Homa.

 9             On 18 November, the Chamber conditionally admitted

10     Miroslav Homa's redacted Rule 92 bis statement, pending the filing of the

11     attestation and declaration.  On 19 November the Chamber noted that the

12     unredacted witness statement had been uploaded into e-court, and

13     requested that the Defence upload or release the redacted witness

14     statement.  The redacted statement and required attestation and

15     declaration have since been uploaded under doc ID 1D29-0168.

16             The Chamber instructs the Registry to replace D1360 with the

17     newly uploaded documents and hereby admits D1360 into evidence.

18             I now move to excerpts of documents used with Milos Kovic.

19             During the testimony of Milos Kovic on 30th of November and the

20     1st of December, P7724 was marked for identification, while P7723, P7742,

21     P7743 and P7752 were reserved, all of which were pending excerpts to be

22     uploaded into e-court.  On the 9th, the 11th and the 14th of December,

23     the Prosecution, via e-mail, informed Chamber and Defence that it had

24     uploaded into e-court revised versions of the relevant documents bearing

25     Rule 65 ter numbers 07617a, 03580a, 07871a, 02368a, and 19650a

Page 42905

 1     respectively and requested replacement and admission of all

 2     aforementioned revised excerpts.

 3             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace P7723,

 4     P7724, P7742, P7743, and P7752 with the excerpts uploaded into e-court

 5     and admits them into evidence.

 6             The Defence has no objection to the admission of P7752 and has

 7     one week to revisit the four other documents.

 8             I now move to excerpts of documents used with Mitar Kovac and

 9     Milos Kovic.

10             During the testimony of Mitar Kovac and Milos Kovic on the

11     19th of November and 30th of November, excerpts of documents bearing

12     Rule 65 ter number 33442 were put to the witnesses.  The document was

13     tendered through Milos Kovic and P7718 was reserved for excerpts to be

14     uploaded into e-court.

15             On 11th of December, the Prosecution via e-mail informed the

16     Chamber and the Defence that the relevant excerpts had been uploaded into

17     e-court under Rule 65 ter number 33442b.

18             The Chamber instructs the Registry to replace P7718 with the

19     newly uploaded excerpts and admits it into evidence.  The Defence has one

20     week to revisit the matter.

21             I now move to the remaining issue from the testimony of Ostoja

22     Marjanovic, P7624.

23             On 9th November, this number was reserved for excerpts of

24     document bearing Rule 65 ter number 33385 which is the transcript of the

25     witness, Ostoja Marjanovic's prior interview with the Prosecution.  This

Page 42906

 1     can be found at transcript page 40996.  On 11 December, the Prosecution

 2     advised the Chamber and Defence via e-mail that the excerpts had been

 3     uploaded into e-court under Rule 65 ter number 33385b.  The Chamber

 4     hereby instructs the Registry to assign P7624 to these excerpts and

 5     admits into evidence and the Defence has one week to revisit the matter.

 6             A few remaining issues from the testimony of Mile Dosenovic.

 7             D1195.  On the 13th of August, 2015, D1195, a radio intercept was

 8     marked for identification, under seal, pending English translation.

 9             On the 28th of October, the Defence advised via e-mail that the

10     translation had been uploaded under doc ID 1D26-3907.  The Prosecution

11     responded, confirming that it did not object to the translation.  The

12     Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to attach the translation to D1195

13     and admits D1195 into evidence under seal.

14             D1196.  On the 13th of August, D1196, a map, was marked for

15     identification, under seal.

16             On the 30th of October, the Prosecution informed the Chamber and

17     the Defence via e-mail that it does not object to its admission but that

18     the map is already in evidence as part of D1200.  The Chamber hereby

19     instructs the Registry to mark D1196 as not admitted.

20             P7499.  On the 17th of August, P7499, a military document, was

21     marked for identification pending the verification of its translation.

22             On the 30th of October, the Prosecution informed the Chamber and

23     the Defence via e-mail that a revised translation had been uploaded into

24     e-court under doc ID 0051-0433-1-ET.

25             The Defence responded on the 3rd of November confirming that it

Page 42907

 1     did not object to the revised translation, and the Chamber hereby

 2     therefore instructs the Registry to replace the translation of P7499 with

 3     the revised one and admits P7499 into evidence.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will review what I said about D1196,

 6     whether there's any potential mistake there, and if so we'll revisit that

 7     matter after the winter recess.

 8             Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  This may be overcautious,

10     but could we move quickly into private session for one matter.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 42908

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 8             Remaining issue from the testimony of Ostoja Marjanovic, P7625.

 9     On the 9th of November of this year, P7625 was reserved for various

10     excerpts of documents bearing Rule 65 ter numbers 33381 and 33383, which

11     are transcripts from the witness, Ostoja Marjanovic's prior testimony in

12     the Stakic case.  This can be found at transcript page 41001.

13             On the 11th of December, the Prosecution advised the Chamber and

14     the Defence via e-mail that the excerpts had be uploaded into e-court

15     under 65 ter number 33381a.  The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to

16     assign P7625 to these excerpts and admits it into evidence.  The Chamber

17     has one week to revisit the matters -- the Defence.  Apologies.

18             I move on to the admission of B/C/S translations.

19             During the testimony of Witness Yasushi Akashi, a number of

20     exhibits were admitted into evidence without B/C/S translations, and a

21     number were marked for identification, pending B/C/S translations.

22             The Prosecution has since informed the Defence and the Chamber

23     that the relevant translations have been uploaded into e-court.  Should

24     the Defence dispute any of the translations, it is free, as always, to

25     seek verification from CLSS and revisit the matter.  In light of this,

Page 42909

 1     the Chamber instructs the Registry to carry out the following changes:

 2             Attach the B/C/S translation uploaded into e-court as doc ID

 3     R001-5622-BCST to P7694.

 4             Attach the B/C/S translation uploaded into e-court as doc ID

 5     R001-3977-BCST to P7695.

 6             Attach the B/C/S translation uploaded into e-court as doc ID

 7     R001-4194-BCST to P7698.

 8             Attach the B/C/S translation uploaded into e-court as doc ID

 9     R013-9911-BCST to P7701 MFI.

10             Attach the B/C/S translation uploaded into e-court as doc ID

11     R001-5622-BCST to P7703 MFI.

12             And attach the B/C/S translation uploaded into e-court as doc ID

13     R010-4879-BCST to P7705 MFI.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P7701, P7703, and P7705 are now admitted into

16     evidence.

17             The Registry has drawn my attention to the fact that portions of

18     the transcript may be missing.  I think we have four items.

19             I take that the missing parts will be worked over this evening,

20     but the parties could verify how ... I'll copy the relevant portion so as

21     for both ourselves and for the parties to further later verify whether

22     the transcript is complete in this respect.

23             And perhaps I should slow down.

24             With regard to P7702, the record did not accurately reflect that

25     this document was admitted into evidence.  This can be found at

Page 42910

 1     transcript page T41779.  The Chamber hereby places on the record that

 2     P7702 is admitted into evidence.

 3             I have another five items to go, so we'll most likely finish

 4     before 3.00.

 5             Next item, translation verification for Exhibit D775.

 6             On the 26th of August of this year, the Chamber invited the

 7     Defence to verify the translation of Exhibit D775.

 8             On the 21st of October, the Defence informed the Chamber and the

 9     Prosecution via e-mail that a complete translation had been uploaded into

10     e-court under doc ID 1D26-2872.  The Chamber hereby instructs the

11     Registry to replace the current translation of D775 with the document

12     bearing doc ID 1D26-2872.  The Prosecution has one week to revisit the

13     matter.

14             Exhibit P4909.  This exhibit, a military order signed by the

15     accused, was admitted into evidence on 13 February 2014.  The Prosecution

16     e-mailed the Chamber and the Defence on the 20th of November, 2015

17     advising that a revised English translation had been uploaded into

18     e-court under doc ID 0280-8993-1-ET.  The Chamber hereby instructs the

19     Registry to replace the English translation of Exhibit P4909 with the

20     revised one and gives the Defence one week to revisit the matter.

21             Next item deals with the replacement of the translation of

22     Exhibit P7469.  This is an article published in the Toronto Star and was

23     admitted into evidence on 22 October 2015.  The Prosecution e-mailed the

24     Chamber and the Defence on the 1st of December, advising that a revised

25     B/C/S translation had opinion uploaded into e-court under doc ID

Page 42911

 1     M000-3014-BCST.

 2             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the B/C/S

 3     translation of Exhibit P7469 with the revised one and gives the Defence

 4     one week to revisit the matter.

 5             P235.  Exhibit P235 was admitted into evidence under seal on the

 6     24th of September, 2012.  The Prosecution e-mailed the Chamber and the

 7     Defence on 1st of December advising that a revised English translation

 8     had been uploaded into e-court under doc ID 0531-6633-1-ET.

 9             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the English

10     translation of Exhibit P235 with the revised one and gives the Defence

11     one week to revisit the matter.

12             Last item, Exhibit P7072.  This exhibit, a document confirming

13     Jadranko Palija's military service was admitted into evidence on 28th of

14     January 2015.  The Chamber instructed the Registry to replace the English

15     translation of this exhibit on the 17th of November and gave the Defence

16     one week to revert.

17             On the 1st of December, one week after the deadline set by the

18     Chamber, the Defence e-mailed the Prosecution advising that there was one

19     small error in the revised translation.  On the 1st of December, the

20     Prosecution responded, advising that a revised English translation had

21     been uploaded into e-court under doc ID 0049-1779-2-ET.

22             The Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to replace the

23     translation of Exhibit P7072 with the revised one.

24             This was the last item on our ...

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 42912

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just verify for myself whether I had read --

 2     earlier in today's session a ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  My agenda is empty.  Is there anything the parties

 5     would like to raise?

 6             Nothing.  Then I put on the record again that Judge Fluegge was

 7     not with us today.  Yesterday it was announced he was unable sitting for

 8     a relatively short period of time but that covered these two days.

 9             Lastly, it is the last day before the recess.  We'll not be in

10     court for quite a number of weeks.  In between we have holidays, in which

11     many of us may celebrate religious ceremonies, has a religious meaning;

12     some in December, some in January.  I wish that everyone finds, though

13     the circumstances under which we are may be quite different, but the

14     Chamber wishes everyone to find what it seeks during this recess period,

15     either religiously or just not in relation to religion.  That's what we

16     wish you.

17             We stand adjourned, and we'll resume, I think on the 1st of

18     February, 2016.

19             We stand adjourned.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.51 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day of

22                           February, 2016, at 9.30 a.m.