151217ED

Page 42817

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 MR. LUKIC: Can we shortly see 1D06281.

8 Q. [Interpretation] We're looking at the book by Mr. Carl Bildt.

9 [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... seek to see page 88 in

10 e-court. It's page 66 of the book.

11 [Interpretation] In his book, Mr. Bildt, as we can see on page 66

12 of the book states the following: "[In English] And probably more than

13 4.000 people had lost their lives in a week of brutal ambushes and

14 fighting in the forests, by the roadside and in the valleys between

15 Srebrenica and the Tuzla district, as the column was trying to reach

16 safety."

17 [Interpretation] Do you know where Mr. Bildt was in 1994, 1995?

18 A. At the point in time when the events in Srebrenica were unfolding

19 in July 1995, Mr. Bildt, as far as I know, was the special peace envoy of

20 the European Union to Bosnia and Herzegovina. Of course, the reason why

21 I took his opinion as a reference point was because at that position he

22 had insight into information -- intelligence data from the field from

23 international representatives in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and he wrote

24 that later in his book.

25 Q. Do you know what were his other positions in Bosnia?

Page 42818

1 A. Immediately after this period, he became the High Representative

2 in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Q. Did he participate in some conferences?

4 A. Yes. In particular, the Dayton Peace Conference. I think he

5 took part there. In any case, he was someone who was well-informed in

6 terms of intelligence and what was going on in the field, and he was at

7 the highest level.

8 MR. LUKIC: We would just propose into evidence cover page and

9 this page, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we do so, a line before there it reads:

11 "In five days of massacres, Mladic had arranged for the methodical

12 execution of more than 3.000 men who had stayed behind and become

13 prisoners of war."

14 Is that something you gave authority to as well or just the

15 yellow line -- the yellow highlighted portion? Because you explained how

16 well-informed he was, so I'm wondering whether it's limited to the yellow

17 portion or whether you would also rely on the other part I just read.

18 Could you please answer my question.

19 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. I --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

21 THE WITNESS: I -- [Interpretation] I thought the question was

22 for the Defence counsel.

23 I quoted this part from his book regarding the circumstances I

24 was dealing with and that is what I was discussing.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please answer now my question. The

Page 42819

1 question was whether you gave some authority to the knowledge and the

2 ability of Mr. Bildt to know what had happened, whether you then also

3 accept the previous few lines where he concluded, as I read, that Mladic

4 had arranged for the methodical execution of more than 3.000 men who had

5 stayed behind.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I were tasked to deal with that

7 particular portion, I would have to go through the same process when I

8 analysed the losses during the breakthrough. I would have to collate all

9 the relevant document, analyse them, put them in order in order to

10 produce conclusions, which would require months, if not years, much as I

11 did for my own analysis. I did not make conclusions based on a sole

12 piece of information or document. We know what analytical work entails.

13 Many documents, their cross-referencing, their analysis, and collation.

14 As you could see, I took a large number into -- of documents into

15 account. Perhaps I could have included more, if that was a problem.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I did refer to the entire book.

18 I did not try to steer clear of anything, in particular.

19 JUDGE ORIE: No, that again was not my question. But the

20 authority of Mr. Bildt in this respect, you say, I would have to verify

21 that, and you didn't verify that on the others although, in general

22 terms, you accept Mr. Bildt as someone who was knowledgeable about the

23 events.

24 Is that how I have to understand your testimony?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I was busy with the losses

Page 42820

1 of the 28th Division sustained during the breakthrough. This is just one

2 of many documents that I tried to cross-reference.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You're evading an answer to my question. Whether

4 you accept the authority of Mr. Bildt as such and whether you would

5 accept it on a similar level for the previous lines. Not to say that he

6 is necessarily right or wrong, but you praised his knowledgeability and

7 whether that would -- if there's any reason not to accept that for the

8 previous lines.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And, incidentally, that sentence that Judge Orie

10 read also relates to losses during the same period in the same area.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I may be of assistance. I

12 did mention what Mr. Bildt's position at the time was. He had access to

13 intelligence information for everything. However, I cannot comment upon

14 the previous sentence because I did not include it in my analysis. As

15 for the segment I was tasked with, I said, yes, he was in that position

16 and he had access to information.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I asked you whether that would be any less

18 true for the previous sentence. I'm not -- I didn't ask you whether you

19 agreed with him but whether there's any reason to less or even more

20 accept his knowledge, his ability, to know what had happened in relation

21 to the previous few lines.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I've answered, but I will

23 repeat. In order for me to comment on any part of his book, I have to

24 put together many documents concerning the topic, and I have to analyse

25 them in order to produce some kind of assessment.

Page 42821

1 As for the highlighted part, did I that, but I did not do that

2 for the previous sentence. Otherwise, it would have been unprofessional,

3 if I had done that. I cannot say if it is correct or not.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hope you understand my point of

6 view.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I fully understand. I didn't even ask you whether

8 it was correct or not. I asked you whether the same praising of his

9 knowledgeability, whether there's any reason to believe that he was less

10 knowledgeable on the part on the previous sentence, in view of his

11 position, his access to intelligence, all the reasons you mentioned

12 answering Mr. Lukic's questions, whether you -- there's any reason that

13 you would give him less authority on other parts of the book.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said he had access to information

15 in keeping with his position. That is not in dispute. It is as it is.

16 What I did say was that I cannot comment on the previous part because I

17 did not deal with it.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- he did have information, though.

20 JUDGE ORIE: He was just as well-informed on any matter, not just

21 the lines you focussed on. Is that --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. LUKIC: Only I would comment on this, Your Honour. Now, you

Page 42822

1 are seeking the opinion of this witness on something he didn't deal and

2 did you not permit to us seek his opinion on something he dealt with. I

3 just want it on the record.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, first of all, you're not supposed to

5 comment on what I asked. You asked questions to this witness about the

6 background of Mr. Bildt, his access to information and his

7 knowledgeability. And that was put in general terms, not exclusively in

8 relation to that. The questions what was his position did he have -- I

9 asked whether there's any reason to believe that he would have been less

10 knowledgeable on a portion of the book on which you did not focus but

11 which I read to him, and I only did so after you had tendered the

12 document. So I let -- I allowed you to ask all questions you wished to

13 put to the witness. It was only when you tendered it that I asked this

14 additional question.

15 Mr. Registrar, the number for the book would be ... for the

16 excerpt of the book.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D1396, Your Honours.

18 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour. We were just hoping that the

19 date of the book could come in as well. It's on page 5 [Overlapping

20 speakers].

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you can agree on it, then we don't need

22 page 5.

23 MR. MacDONALD: Oh.

24 JUDGE ORIE: What's the year when the book was published?

25 MR. MacDONALD: It's 1998 from our reading, Your Honour.

Page 42823

1 JUDGE ORIE: 1998. No objections. Admitted into evidence.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Can I consult with the client for a

4 moment?

5 JUDGE ORIE: You can do so if he sticks to our rule that he

6 should not speak at audible volume.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 JUDGE ORIE: I can hear Mr. Mladic's voice so ...

9 No speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic. Last warning.

10 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Do you know anything about the meeting between Mr. Mladic and

14 Mr. Bildt when they met in Dobanovci on the 14th of July, 1995 around the

15 time when everything was going on?

16 A. I read hundreds of thousands of documents when I analysed all of

17 it. Colloquially speaking, I may have touched upon it, but I wasn't

18 particularly interested since it was not directly related to the topic.

19 I do know there was a meeting. I think there were several people

20 involved, including some senior internationals, but that's all I know,

21 I'm afraid.

22 Q. Let us move onto the next topic. We will now deal with the part

23 of the report that deals with the mortal remains of the killed members of

24 the 28th Division of the Army of BH. I wanted to draw the Chamber's

25 attention to P01557. It is General Ratko Mladic's order on returning

Page 42824

1 things to normal in the municipality of Srebrenica.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald.

3 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour. I would normally wait for my

4 friend to pose the question but the Prosecution would object to the

5 documents, the military documents which are -- in the English pages 48 to

6 page 50 of the witness's report being shown to him and the witness

7 commenting upon them. In the Prosecution's submission, it is outside the

8 expertise of this witness to interpret military orders. I believe he

9 also gives a reason with regard to infectious disease and epidemics as to

10 the fate of these bodies. That is outside of his expertise,

11 Your Honours.

12 MR. LUKIC: If I may, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

14 MR. LUKIC: We heard from Mr. Pavlovic at the beginning of his

15 testimony that his primary source in his work in the institute of missing

16 persons in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on today's job, today's position are

17 military documents. The main issue of knowledge for his institute. He

18 worked before, and for his office today. It's -- we have military

19 documents tendered by the Prosecution through Ministry of Interior of

20 Denmark written in Cyrillic that the witness said he she that did not

21 have --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --

23 MR. LUKIC: -- idea what that document is, and to say that

24 gentleman cannot comment on military documents is --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

Page 42825

1 MR. LUKIC: Is --

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... first of all, a witness of

3 fact is not an expert witness. You have presented this expert witness

4 and given his credentials in terms of identification, exhumation and

5 there was another, I think a third section.

6 Now, you now say, Whatever is only indirectly related to that

7 falls within his expertise as well. That's not true. I mean, the

8 analysis of military documents usually requires an extensive military --

9 military expertise which is supported by the training, by the experience

10 in the military field, et cetera, et cetera.

11 Now, you haven't presented this witness as such. You have

12 presented him as a witness in other fields. If this is what you think,

13 you should have presented him as a military expert and then you could

14 have told us.

15 MR. LUKIC: With all due respect, Your Honour, the first

16 operative. First operative in that institute. Everything went through

17 him.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic. I've seen persons who are first officers

19 or even directors of hospitals. That doesn't make them doctors. Let's

20 be clear on that. It's just a comparison. I leave it to that at this

21 moment.

22 Please proceed, but keep in mind, first of all, there's only an

23 overall objection, that there's an objection. I have not ruled on that

24 yet. With your questions, stay within the limits of the expertise of

25 this witness and then please proceed. And you may put questions in such

Page 42826

1 a way that you achieve your aim also by not relying on elements that are

2 not within the scope of his expertise.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. LUKIC: I just mentioned the first document, it's P exhibit,

5 so I don't know what the objection is, whether it should be [Overlapping

6 speakers] ...

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... if you would have listened

8 well, you would know what the objection was. Not to look at this

9 document, but to put a certain type of questions, and Mr. MacDonald

10 clearly explained that he did that unusually at this stage so as to be

11 clear what he expects you to do, and I think the Chamber expects to you

12 to stay within what we told you to do.

13 MR. LUKIC: Can we have on our screens 65 ter number from the

14 Prosecution list 05794, please.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Did you deal with the fate of those who

16 disappeared when you worked for the institute of missing persons in BiH?

17 A. Yes, those who went missing during the war in Bosnia or those who

18 went missing who originated from Bosnia.

19 Q. Did you rely on such documents as this one in the course of your

20 work?

21 A. We would not have been able to do our job had we not relied on

22 military documents when it comes to those who went missing during the

23 war.

24 Q. You are not a military expert.

25 A. No. I'm the head of sector who deals with intelligence and

Page 42827

1 analysis concerning the missing persons and the return of their remains

2 to their families.

3 Q. The document before us is dated the 20th July 1995 from the

4 command of the Drina Corps. We see here that asanacija or sanitation and

5 hygiene measures of the battle-field are concerned.

6 Under item 1, we find the following: "In co-operation with the

7 civil defence organs, health centres and hospitals, the organs of public

8 utilities enterprises and work organisations, and Ministries of Defence

9 of municipalities, immediately organise and proceed with the complete

10 clearing-up of the battle-field ..."

11 What kind of information did you gather? Who took part in

12 asanacija in terms of military and civilian authorities in the second

13 part of July in 1995?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald.

15 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour. We would have two objections

16 to that question.

17 Firstly, the who, if he is basing upon this order it would again

18 be interpretation.

19 Secondly, I think my friend referenced the word "battle-field"

20 which, again, the Prosecution would submit requires a military

21 interpretation for the area being talked about, which, again, outside the

22 witness's expertise, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you lay a foundation for your question,

24 Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: I'll then -- posed open question.

Page 42828

1 JUDGE ORIE: That doesn't make the need to lay a foundation any

2 less.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. In the course of your work at the institute did anyone ever

5 object to you relying on such documents?

6 A. It is impossible. It is one of our primary sources --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Irrelevant question. Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

8 The question is not whether someone else objected to or did not

9 rely on it. We want to know -- the laying of a foundation is not whether

10 others commented on it.

11 Witness, what, in terms of battle-fields, what is your definition

12 of a battle-field and from where do you get that?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not deal with military

14 lexicon definitions. We were looking for those who went missing, and we

15 took into account all documents that assisted us in the process,

16 including, military ones. That was the context we worked in, and it

17 involved intelligence and analysis.

18 JUDGE ORIE: It's not an answer to my question.

19 Could you please put your next question to the witness,

20 Mr. Lukic.

21 Or perhaps I would have one. Witness, do you have any knowledge

22 about who in military structures would be tasked with sanitacija [phoen]

23 on the ground? And could you tell us on what basis you have knowledge

24 about that.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clearly defined in this

Page 42829

1 document who is to be involved. There are rules of service that existed

2 on all sides. It was done by the bodies of civilian protection when

3 ordered by the military structures. That is general knowledge.

4 JUDGE ORIE: It's general knowledge, you say.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is general knowledge when it

6 comes to the work we did.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And those rules of service you are referring

8 to as relevant, could you tell us which rules of service you are

9 referring to?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In what sense? Precisely? You

11 want me to cite the documents and their numbers or something else? I

12 don't understand.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please describe them for me.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rules of service define what

15 asanacija in the battle-field is, and it is specified who is to be

16 engaged.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then point at what rules of service would

18 apply in this context, in the context of this document? Indeed,

19 specifically rules so-and-so or ...

20 And Mr. Mladic is supposed not to speak aloud.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't necessary for me to deal

22 with the details of rules of service. We had to know how it all worked

23 in principle, and we can see it in this document. We can see who was

24 included.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 42830

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To me, it was sufficient to be able

2 to follow it all.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that, that that's your

4 opinion. You said sanitation was done by the bodies of civil protection

5 when ordered by the military structures.

6 Where is that relation between the military structures

7 ordering --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Municipal? I talked about things

9 how they were inherited from the JNA in principle. The same principle

10 was adopted on all sides with variations. However in principle and

11 depending on the situation, it was done by public utilities enterprises

12 and the bodies of civilian protection, i.e., civilian authorities. To

13 what extent any military bodies were included depended on each particular

14 case. It was a chaotic state during the war and things were not all

15 orderly in place.

16 JUDGE ORIE: What were the rules on the involvement of the

17 military authorities in this respect? Should they order it?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not go into such detail. We

19 were interested in the principles.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic, and please keep in mind what we said

22 earlier about sticking to the expertise of the witness.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, if I may just go to your question that

24 started this debate.

25 At page 22, line 1, you said, "Who took part in the asanacija in

Page 42831

1 terms of military and civilian authorities in the second part of

2 July 1995."

3 This was after reading paragraph 1 of this document that's on the

4 list -- that's on the screen by asking who. Do you want additional

5 entities and people in addition to those mentioned in paragraph 1?

6 MR. LUKIC: No, I wanted if this witness has knowledge how it

7 worked in practice at that moment during his work, if he got any

8 additional information who actually did work on the terrain in the field.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you want his knowledge apart from what this

10 order says?

11 MR. LUKIC: Yeah Your Honour. If it's really implemented in

12 practice, if he got that information during his work. If he does not

13 know, he can tell me, I don't know.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know. You go ahead.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Pavlovic, as part of your work at the institute, did you

17 follow this lead? Did you try to find those who went missing, whether

18 some of them were found on the ground and how many were buried?

19 A. It is a well-known fact, from my experience and that of my

20 colleagues as well as on the basis of the analysis of the documents I

21 read, that asanacija was always done in the period following a combat

22 activity. And we can see that in orders such as this one, as well as the

23 statements of those people who survived from the 28th Division. They

24 could see asanacija being implemented in the field. We also have regular

25 reports of VRS members who, for example, asked for additional fuel in

Page 42832

1 order to be -- to bury enemy soldiers. Some of it was done after

2 September 1995 during the joint work of the entity commissions.

3 From 1996 to date, perhaps some 700-plus sets of bodily remains

4 were exhumed, and I put together a list of some 660 people who were --

5 whose bodies were collected on the ground and identified.

6 Q. Just one moment. What was interpreted was that they were

7 exhumed. Were they exhumed or ...

8 A. They were collected from the surface. They were cleared. So

9 after that, there is the question in the context of this order and other

10 information that I referred to, where the rest of the bodies were. I'm

11 talking about thousands of bodies. And then here it is said that it is

12 essential to complete asanacija because, at that time of the year, it was

13 very hot and some diseases would break out and affect people and animals.

14 So on the basis of reviewing documents and some samples, I came to the

15 conclusion that these orders were carried out and that the asanacija was

16 implemented and obviously some of those bodies that were part of this

17 clearing of the terrain were buried in some mass graves.

18 Q. You mentioned a witness statement?

19 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... 1D06282, please.

20 1D06282.

21 JUDGE ORIE: But perhaps before we look at that, perhaps we first

22 take a break.

23 But before we do that, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes,

24 Witness. But before we do that, I saw, Mr. Lukic, that -- you may follow

25 the usher.

Page 42833

1 That what is uploaded from Carl Bildt's book at this moment is

2 the entire book and, therefore ...

3 MR. LUKIC: We have to see with the Prosecution which parts they

4 want uploaded.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please --

7 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- define the excerpts as soon as possible so that

9 we can limit ourselves to a few pages rather than to 446.

10 We take a break and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald.

15 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

16 With regard to the last answer of the witness, the Prosecution

17 would consider that answer is outside of his expertise. We did not

18 object because unfortunately we found the question did not necessarily

19 elicit that answer. However, we appreciate that is now on the record.

20 It was an area that we hadn't intended to cross on, but given that it's

21 on the record now we consider that we consider the most efficient way

22 forward would simply be to cross-examine the witness on that claim,

23 Your Honour.

24 The question I had in mind was Mr. Lukic stating: "Mr. Pavlovic,

25 as part of your work at the institute, did you follow this lead, did you

Page 42834

1 try to find those who went missing" --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: What page and what line.

3 MR. MacDONALD: Sorry. Temporary transcript 26, line 5,

4 Your Honours.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

8 JUDGE ORIE: The witness entered the courtroom while you were

9 speaking. That doesn't cause you any problem from what you said?

10 MR. MacDONALD: No, Your Honour. Although if there's to be

11 further discussion on this, we would ask that it be outside the presence

12 of the witness, but I would --

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, one second.

14 I must admit due to overlapping speakers I do not know whether I

15 have a full recollection of what was said. But if you say you want to

16 cross-examine the witness on that. If Mr. Lukic wants to make any

17 comment you'd rather have it not in the presence of the witness.

18 MR. MacDONALD: Any further discussions right now, Your Honours,

19 yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Any further discussions.

21 Mr. Lukic, if you want to further discuss the matter, then we

22 have to ask the witness -- either to leave or at a later stage to leave

23 at least before the start of the cross-examination. If you say, well,

24 it's on the record. That's what will happen --

25 MR. LUKIC: I will discuss this, and, Your Honour, I would just

Page 42835

1 remind that this witness was called as an expert in tracing, exhumation

2 and identification. So tracing is what we were discussing here. He has

3 to trace first.

4 JUDGE ORIE: So apparently there's some dispute about whether it

5 falls within the field of expertise yes or no. You consider it was.

6 You've asked the question. The question has been answered. Despite your

7 opinion, Mr. MacDonald, you say, you will cross-examine the witness on

8 it.

9 Fine. There seems to be no real problem. Please proceed.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will just recalled 1D06282

11 on our screens, please.

12 This is not translated. And I will just read one short part of

13 the statement. We need -- and this is statement of Suljic, Idriz from

14 30th November 1995. And if we can see page 3, please.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pavlovic, we're looking at paragraph 3 here,

16 the big, long paragraph. Line 10 from the top of the paragraph it states

17 the following: "While we were in Pobudje, we were watching from a hill

18 as the Chetniks in Pervane were walking along the asphalt road and

19 collecting bodies with a loader and loading them into a FAB truck. They

20 were driving them towards the village of Kravica, municipality of

21 Bratunac."

22 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... from D01379 which

23 is federal Ministry of Defence, security and intelligence sector. We

24 read that also 500 Bosniaks were driven by trucks in the same direction.

25 We have P03518 that discusses the matter and we can find it in

Page 42836

1 paragraph 70 of the work of Mr. -- footnote 70 of the work of

2 Mr. Pavlovic.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pavlovic, today you talked about the 700

4 that were collected from the surface, from the ground. And you're

5 talking about your lowest assessment of 4.500 to 5.000 men who were

6 killed during the attempt to break through?

7 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour. My friend has just referenced

8 in his question the conclusion of the witness which Your Honours

9 precisely stated was outside of his expertise the assessment of the

10 number of people who died.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on. What we said about it is clear.

12 Mr. Lukic, at this moment, refers to it. Let's leave it to that and

13 nothing more, nothing less.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. According to you and in your work, what was the conclusion that

17 you reached about where those bodily remains are?

18 A. As I explained in the previous session, and taking into account

19 all the documents that I went through, and in view of my experience in

20 this work, and on the basis of certain information and data, I reached

21 the conclusion that a certain number of bodies of those killed, members

22 of the 28th Division, during the breakthrough, were cleared when the

23 terrain was being cleared after the combat actions. This is also stated

24 in the order that we had the opportunity to see and that they were buried

25 in certain graves --

Page 42837

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name of the

2 corps that the witness mentioned.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the name of the corps you

4 mentioned.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Drina Corps. Assistant

6 commander for logistics of the Drina Corps.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You said in some graves. Which graves did you mean?

10 A. Well, in principle, according to the information that I found, it

11 is my opinion that these bodies that were cleared from the terrain were

12 buried in primary and secondary graves, as we refer to them.

13 Q. We will come to that, and we will look at a document.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But before that, I would like to

15 tender document 65 ter 05794.

16 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for that, do you have in mind

17 any graves that were exhumed and were presented in the evidence of the

18 Prosecution, or are you talking about other graves?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned that in the overview,

20 in the table that I submitted. These are graves that relate to the

21 events in Srebrenica in 1995.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That's not my question. My question is, we have

23 received evidence presented by the Prosecution about exhumation in mass

24 graves, and there's quite some detail. People who were identified, who

25 were found in those mass graves. When you're talking about these persons

Page 42838

1 having been buried in graves, do you have the same graves in your mind so

2 that they were found in those same graves, or do you have other graves in

3 your mind?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of exactly which

5 graves were mentioned by the Prosecution. I followed the trail of my own

6 information, and I presented that in the overview that I presented and

7 that I assume you received. I did not deal with information about

8 whether the Prosecution submitted something or not, but I think that this

9 evidence is clear. I -- I did present them.

10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... let me stop you

11 there.

12 The overview -- Apparently, Mr. Lukic, you understand what it is.

13 MR. LUKIC: It's --

14 JUDGE ORIE: -- it's --

15 MR. LUKIC: It's 1D06331. We're just coming to that after we

16 admit those documents.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It's not yet for us. We haven't seen it yet.

18 MR. LUKIC: At the beginning, Judge Moloto asked one question.

19 We just saw shortly that document. We are now going back to it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay --

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: We never really got it. As I said to you the

22 other day, we never got that document. And, you know, it's supposed to

23 have been part of the report and that part of report we never got.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We don't have it. That's one.

25 Second, Witness, do I understand you well that you are not aware

Page 42839

1 of the evidence presented to this Chamber in relation to exhumation of

2 persons, all the evidence, and let's say in the Srebrenica area in 1995,

3 you have no knowledge about what was presented as evidence to this

4 Chamber?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I said that I didn't

6 know in detail what the Prosecution submitted to the Chamber, which

7 graves these were. I didn't deal with that. I was just working on

8 tracing where the bodies could be of the persons who were killed in the

9 breakthrough. Those are the bodies that I was tracing. I was trying to

10 find out where those bodies could be. And so I presented to you the

11 evidence that I acquired.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Let's move on. It's --

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sure you can answer the simple question:

14 Which graves did you deal with? From which graves did you exhumed the

15 people that you analysed?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I submitted that in the material in

17 the analysis --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you've got to

19 know what graves you went to analyse. We will look at the document when

20 it comes, as Mr. Lukic has told us. He is getting to that. But can you

21 answer the question right now.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that we're not

23 understanding each other. I'm talking about the manner in which I, in

24 this segment, reached conclusions in my analytical process. I did not go

25 and exhume anything --

Page 42840

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These skeletons were already

3 exhumed.

4 If you permit me, I can explain.

5 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll get to that.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll get to that. I'm just a bit surprised that

7 talking about large numbers of dead persons having been found in graves,

8 that you cannot tell us whether these were graves which were exhumed by

9 the Prosecution or through the intervention of the Prosecution, or

10 whether these were exhumations done separately by your people.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is something that I can't

12 answer. I'm sorry, forgive me. Perhaps I misunderstood.

13 All the mass graves, primary and secondary graves, linked to the

14 events in and around Srebrenica in July 1995 were exhumed either by the

15 Prosecutor's office, I assume, or by the authorised prosecutor's offices

16 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is clear. No one else could have been

17 performing these exhumations from these graves.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I analysed the data from those

20 exhumations.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the exhumations not performed by your own

22 people but performed by the Prosecution or those instructed by the

23 Prosecution to do so. Is that ...

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Members in my sector took part in

25 the exhumation, each exhumation is an investigative action under the

Page 42841

1 jurisdiction of a specific prosecutor's office, so pursuant to

2 international agreements, we are present during the exhumation process

3 from start to finish. But for specific segments of our work, we use

4 certain sectors. For intelligence aspects of our works, we use the

5 intelligence institutions. For information from exhumations, we

6 co-operate with the prosecutor's offices, and so on and so forth. And

7 this is something that is ongoing until the bodies are handed back to the

8 family members.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. MacDonald,

10 you're on your feet.

11 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honours. With regard to 1D06331,

12 that is the list that Mr. Lukic briefly showed I believe on Monday and

13 plans to proceed to, the witness stated that he provided it with material

14 with his report. We received that list on Sunday evening at 5.30,

15 Your Honours, and we have yet to receive the majority of the supporting

16 documentation underlying it. And I was going to bring this up when

17 Mr. Lukic moved to that list, but seeing as the witness has claimed, I

18 believe, he provided it with the material with his analysis, we didn't

19 get it till Sunday, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it seems to be pretty relevant to know

21 what the witness in this respect presented, because I went through his

22 report searching, for example, for the word mass or mass graves,

23 et cetera and then you hardly find any concrete information. But

24 apparently there is a list unknown to us, although presented by the

25 witness. Let's move on and let's wait for what happens.

Page 42842

1 MR. LUKIC: I can also tell you the concern of Mr. MacDonald, he

2 asked me whether I have statements that support this list I'm going

3 through just in few moments, and I said that Mr. Pavlovic brought some

4 statements, but it was too late to put them in the record and I couldn't

5 ask him since I could not --

6 JUDGE ORIE: When did you receive the list? That's first.

7 The second support for that list maybe have come late.

8 When did you receive that list?

9 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Pavlovic provided that list to us when he came

10 here.

11 JUDGE ORIE: The list of the --

12 MR. LUKIC: 6331. We uploaded as Mr. MacDonald just told us.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pavlovic, you said you expect us to know about

14 that list. When did you provide that list to the Prosecution, the list,

15 the attachment?

16 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

17 JUDGE ORIE: Hmm?

18 MR. LUKIC: To the Defence.

19 JUDGE ORIE: To the Defence, yes.

20 When did you do that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that you knew about the

22 document because, on Monday, you had it in front of you. I brought it

23 with me, and I gave it to the Defence as an overview of specific examples

24 on the basis of which I reached certain conclusions.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And you didn't bother to do that when you presented

Page 42843

1 the report? To the Defence.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be honest, I am not quite versed

3 in all the procedures that have to do with your work, so I am in this

4 situation for the first time. I must say so.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on. It's --

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but in your work, didn't you see that as

7 part of your work as a person who is going to -- who specialising in

8 tracing, exhumation and identification of people who lost their lives in

9 war? Didn't you think we need to know who you have identified?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're probably right. But there

11 was some objective circumstances. To be honest, I didn't even know till

12 the last day whether I would be coming to testify at all. I mean, there

13 was some confusion about whether I would testify or not. Now, I was

14 informed a day or two before. I had no idea that I would actually be

15 coming to testify. There were many things that were unclear, at least as

16 far as I'm concerned. I'm not really somebody who is familiar with this

17 process.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... to court.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because -- excuse me. Because

20 these are working overviews that I used. And I showed that to the

21 Defence when I was speaking with the Defence counsel. I wanted to

22 explain to them how I came to certain conclusions. This was during

23 preparation for testimony.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You didn't think that these were necessary for the

25 court to see. You say you don't understand how we work, and I don't

Page 42844

1 understand how you've bothered to have this list, if you didn't see it as

2 part of your work. If you saw it as part of your work, I don't know why

3 you didn't make it part of your report.

4 You see my problem?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. Of course.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, please move on.

7 MR. LUKIC: I offered for admission 05794.

8 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

9 Mr. Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That Exhibit D1397, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.

12 MR. LUKIC: And the next one, 1D06282.

13 JUDGE ORIE: No objections either.

14 Mr. Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI D1398, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: D1398 is marked for identification.

17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. And now we would move to this one,

18 1D06331.

19 Maybe it's easier if we only go through English version.

20 Q. [Interpretation] We see the document in front of us, the English

21 version of the document. Who drafted this document?

22 A. I drafted this overview.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

24 MR. MacDONALD: Sorry, Your Honours. I discussed with my friend

25 I think this document should not be broadcast [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 42845

1 MR. LUKIC: I thought only on page 4.

2 MR. MacDONALD: It's page 5, actually, but ...

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You have apparently considered what could be

4 broadcast and what not. Please stay on the safe side, Mr. Lukic.

5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Did we get the answer? Yes, yes, you said that

7 you drafted the document.

8 What is this document? What does it show?

9 A. This document gives an overview of specific examples that led me

10 to assess and to conclude that the large number of bodies of casualties

11 of the breakthrough of the 28th Division, which is referred to in

12 military analysis on the Bosniak side, also based on eye-witness reports,

13 media reports, and also scientific research of the actions of the

14 28th Division, as well as testimonies of family members and combatants,

15 so I tried, pursuant to my own work description, to work out where these

16 bodies could have ended up, and this is a kind of overview of all the

17 examples of certain members of the 28th Division indicating where their

18 bodies were cleared from the terrain and possibly where they were buried.

19 Q. It was interpreted that these are all of the cases. Did you

20 include all of them or were these just some kind of samples?

21 A. As I said, this is just an excerpt.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we --

23 MR. LUKIC: No, it's -- it's just some examples, is what the

24 witness said. It's not excerpts. It's not all the examples. Some

25 examples.

Page 42846

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you're not there to do the

2 interpretation. If there's any doubt about it, you know how to deal with

3 that.

4 You say these are examples. How many disputed cases do you have

5 in total?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not enumerate them here. I

7 just mentioned some examples that I could. I don't know exactly. We can

8 count them. In any case, it raises some concern or creates some doubt

9 that I used to follow the lead and, if necessary, I can explain.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I was, first of all, interested in -- if you

11 say, These are examples. First of all, how many examples do we have in

12 this document?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For example, for the first category

14 of arguments, I mention only two or three examples.

15 For the second category, perhaps ten.

16 JUDGE ORIE: How many in total in this document, I asked you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not count them. I'm sorry.

18 We can count them now? It wasn't important to me at that time.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, if you say examples, then it's -- it's

20 some out of a total. How many cases in total you had reason to dispute;

21 that's one. But before you answer that question, could you tell what was

22 the dispute? I mean, what makes it disputed?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like this: I mentioned the

24 categories of argument as I defined them. The first set of arguments and

25 examples includes people who are still missing --

Page 42847

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... stop you there.

2 Where do we find exactly in this document, if we find it in this

3 document, the set of arguments? Or is it in your report? And if it is

4 in your report, where is it in your report?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I specified in the report. I

6 specified what was the basis of dispute and then I followed it up with

7 specific examples.

8 For the first group, or set of examples, we have the people

9 who --

10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... stop you there.

11 Where in this report do we find this first group or first set of

12 examples? Where do we have them? On ...

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would have to go through this to

14 find them by their first and last name. I can't remember them all. But

15 I would be able to indicate them. For example, the names of people who

16 were found at Tisova Kosa and some mortal remains from the same body were

17 found on the surface, whereas another part of the skeleton was found in a

18 mass grave. And I have, say, another two examples like that, that I

19 mentioned. That would be one group. And they are in the overview.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then I go back to my first question. What is then

21 in dispute about these remains?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no dispute. It was just

23 something that led me further to consider the process of asanacija of

24 those killed from the 28th Division, indicating that the bodily remains

25 were collected after combat and then buried in certain graves. Perhaps

Page 42848

1 only weeks after the event.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And in dispute with what exactly? I mean,

3 apparently you have developed some thoughts on how these bodily remains

4 ended up at certain places. Are you opposing any other thoughts? Are

5 you opposing conclusions drawn by others on those bodily remains?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the title of the document, we

7 can't find -- no, I see it says "disputed."

8 Yes. Maybe I added the title later. What I wanted to mention

9 were the examples that in the course of my work may have served as an

10 indication in -- about where some bodily remains ended. There's no

11 dispute from point of view. I'm simply trying to find the people who

12 went missing during the breakthrough. I was just trying to show that

13 some of those people were collected from the surface as part of the

14 asanacija process and later buried in certain mass graves. There is no

15 dispute, per se.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... no dispute,

17 although you used that in the title. Well, at least it's now clear that

18 there is no dispute. These are just cases where you thought that

19 specific attention should be paid to the details in order to find out how

20 and -- how they may have died. Is that ... under what circumstances.

21 Is that well understood?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. These examples prove that

23 there was asanacija after combat and that these people were then buried

24 in mass graves.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's three steps further. But I leave it to

Page 42849

1 Mr. Lukic to further ask questions about it.

2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before he does, what you've just said, sir,

4 about that they prove that there was asanacija after combat and these

5 people were then buried in mass graves, was that the objective your

6 report?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The objective of my report is to

8 analyse the losses during the breakthrough of the 28th Division and the

9 fate of the mortal remains of those who perished, i.e., where they ended

10 up.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where they ended up that was the objective: To

12 find where they ended up. Thank you so much.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Where did you get your information from, the information you

15 entered in this document?

16 A. I referred to the examinations of bone samples.

17 Q. Who did that?

18 A. Let me continue. So bone samples concerning all the exhumations

19 done so far, primarily by the ICMP. I think there is a report before

20 this Tribunal with the names of those who were exhumed, as well as bone

21 samples and the locations where they were found and taken from. It also

22 included all of the documents we have referred to previously. It is in

23 the footnotes.

24 Q. You mentioned that some bodies were found on the surface while

25 others may have been found partially on the surface and partially in mass

Page 42850

1 graves.

2 Let us look at page 2 of this document. You mentioned

3 Tisova Kosa. Let's look at the last name on the page.

4 MR. LUKIC: It's not the same as I -- yeah, yeah, we have it.

5 The last name on the second page.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Please explain this entry so that I don't put

7 questions to you.

8 A. We see that the body of this person was collected at Tisova Kosa

9 as part of asanacija. We also have the bone sample number. It is TIS 1

10 and so on. However it was also exhumed from the mass grave Cancarski

11 Put 12. These are exhumation documents. Such information exists with

12 every case of exhumation where the body receives a designated number, as

13 well as bone samples numbers, so it can be seen where the body was found.

14 That information comes from the ICMP report in 2013 that was forwarded.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, it says, "removed as part of

16 sanitation of the terrain on location Tisova Kosa what's the basis for

17 that knowledge? It doesn't say what the source of that information is.

18 Could you tell us on what basis you make this statement?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you find this person in the

20 specific database I just mentioned, you will see that in the ICMP

21 database it stated that the person was found at the two locations, as I

22 said.

23 JUDGE ORIE: No. But you said it was part of a sanitation of

24 terrain. Does is say in the ICMP this was sanitation of the terrain and

25 there -- and how did they establish that it was sanitation of the

Page 42851

1 terrain, rather than just finding parts of a body there?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right, I'm sorry. Of

3 course, I consulted other databases with respect to where people were

4 found. At the institute we do have an overview of where people were

5 found. When discussing asanacija, some people, their bodily remains were

6 found in two or three different places because the bones were dispersed

7 and then there are people whose remains can be found in a number of

8 different graves. We have all that information for the people, the

9 location of Tisova Kosa means that they were collected from the ground on

10 the surface. It can easily be checked and verified.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You certainly are aware that whether people are

12 found as a result of sanitation of the terrain or in any other context is

13 a -- seems to be a rather important matter in this case. Where do you

14 find that this body, apart from being found in Tisova Kosa, that it was

15 found during the sanitation of terrain; and if so, sanitation of the

16 terrain by whom?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Asanacija and exhumation was done

18 by the acting prosecutor's offices at the point in time on orders from

19 the prosecutors who were in charge. As part of the forensic team, there

20 is -- there's a pathologist who marks every bone sample --

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... let me stop you

22 there. So when you say as part of sanitation of the terrain, you're not

23 referring to any sanitation of the terrain by the military after combat

24 or something like that, but you're referring to a search on the terrain

25 by not by the parties to the conflict but, rather, by those who were

Page 42852

1 investigating.

2 Is that what you referred to?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This part of the skeleton was

4 found as part of asanacija after 1996. It is obvious that somebody was

5 collecting the bodies on the surface and buried them because some of them

6 were, indeed, collected.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it now at least becomes a bit clear to me

8 where the word "asanacija" is often used in a totally different context,

9 and I take it that you're aware of that. You don't know that asanacija

10 is often used in evidence before this Chamber in the context of the armed

11 forces -- armed forces --

12 MR. LUKIC: They are not receiving translation.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, there is no translation. Okay. Could we just

14 check. Yes, it's there again.

15 Are you aware that asanacija is often used in evidence as a

16 reference to the armed forces clearing up the terrain after combat

17 situations?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I also discussed that type of

19 asanacija after combat. Perhaps I may have been unclear, but when I

20 mention it here, it involves forensic investigation.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what's now is the specific problem here,

22 apart from that parts of the bodies were found in two different

23 locations? What -- I mean, that happened often as we have heard. What's

24 now the specific problem here? Because you said it proves something.

25 What does it prove?

Page 42853

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In examples such as this, where

2 some remains were found on the surface as part of asanacija by the acting

3 prosecutor's office, whereas another part of the same person was found in

4 a mass grave may indicate or may lead us to suppose that asanacija was

5 done after combat, as foreseen by the order we saw stemming from the

6 Drina Corps.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Well -- let me just re-read what you now said. One

8 second, please.

9 You are telling us that this indicates that this was the type of

10 asanacija stemming from the Drina Corps order. At the same time, you're

11 telling us that this was asanacija by investigative bodies and that's --

12 you're mixing up here -- at least that's what I am putting to you.

13 You're mixing up the asanacija by the armed forces and the asanacija in

14 the context of investigation. What makes you link this asanacija to the

15 Drina Corps order?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Perhaps I was

17 unclear. I can try to clarify.

18 What I'm saying is this: The asanacija performed at Tisova Kosa

19 in regard to this specific person was a forensic investigation, and we

20 have the bone samples, identification numbers. At the same time, other

21 parts of the same person were found in a mass grave elsewhere as part of

22 another asanacija. Such examples may indicate that following an order of

23 the Drina Corps after combat - perhaps a few weeks later - bodily remains

24 were collected, those belonging to members of the 28th Division, and then

25 buried in certain mass graves.

Page 42854

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I now at least understand what is, in my view,

2 rather unclear in this report or in this overview, but at least it has

3 become a bit clearer what you meant.

4 Mr. MacDonald.

5 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 At temporary transcript page 45, Mr. Pavlovic said he consulted

7 other databases with regard to this overview. We have -- we the

8 Prosecution have no idea what they are and we don't seem to have access

9 to that information, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you could have asked that -- that's clear. You

11 could have asked that in cross-examination.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. [Previous translation

14 continues] ... this name we can find in P01901 at page 122. That's ICMP

15 list of missing persons.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Can you give the name again Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: It's P01901.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no. You said -- if you look at page 48, line

19 21 you said, this name we can find in P01901. What is the name we find

20 in that document.

21 (redacted)

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we -- P1901 is not a public document so we

24 should be careful with names.

25 Please proceed.

Page 42855

1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

2 Q. [Interpretation] In this table, are there other examples such as

3 this one where some bodies were collected on the surface as part of the

4 asanacija performed by investigative authorities while, at the same time,

5 other bodily remains belonging to the same people who were found in a

6 mass grave? Do you know any such other examples?

7 A. I can't recall the names, but I think there are two or three

8 other examples. I'm very bad with -- at remembering names. I think

9 there are two examples.

10 Q. Sefik, Dugonic; does he belong in the same category?

11 A. I suppose so but I would have to check because there were many

12 names.

13 MR. LUKIC: It's time for break, and I think that I'll move on.

14 And I don't have much left.

15 JUDGE ORIE: "Not much" is how much?

16 MR. LUKIC: I'm just -- I'll just be dealing with this document.

17 And I'll show one name from this P1901.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take --

19 MR. LUKIC: Probably ten, 15 minutes, I think it would be enough.

20 For me.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Unclear questions and unclear evidence often

22 trigger the need for clarification.

23 You may -- the witness may follow the usher. But the usher has

24 left. So he'll be back in a second.

25 Mr. MacDonald.

Page 42856

1 MR. MacDONALD: Your Honour, we wonder if it's possible if we

2 could get any of the information the witness is referring to for this

3 overview. We don't have it just now.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You -- you mean what exactly?

5 [The witness stands down]

6 MR. MacDONALD: In particular, the databases right now is the

7 first time we've heard about them.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I left it to cross-examination. I take it

9 if --

10 Mr. Lukic, have you any idea what it is?

11 MR. LUKIC: Those databases must be from his work or --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Not from his work? Oh, must be from his work.

13 MR. LUKIC: Must be from his work or maybe he refers to the

14 documents he searched from our databases. Either from us or from his

15 work.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll ask the witness the first thing after the

17 break whether he could identify any of the other databases. I know that

18 you are losing 20 minutes, about that's -- I -- I prefer not to deal with

19 these kind of matters outside the courtroom with the witness, and,

20 therefore, we'll leave it until after the break.

21 MR. MacDONALD: If I can just say one more thing, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MR. MacDONALD: Also, the witness statements that he relies upon,

24 I think. We're not sure but he brought some material with

25 him [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 42857

1 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... I didn't have a chance to

2 ask him, since I discussed it yesterday or the day before with

3 Mr. MacDonald, since I could not contact the witness. So I really don't

4 have answer to that, whether he has -- which they are. We have to ask

5 him.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. MacDONALD: We understand that he would have it, Your Honour,

8 that he brought it to The Hague, the material behind this list.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If he didn't bring it to The Hague, then it's

10 of no use to further insist. We'll ask the witness after the break.

11 We'll take the break and resume at ten minutes last 12.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 12.10 p.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It may be that since we're running out of time that

15 a few decisions which are taken already, that the Chamber may communicate

16 although they're not officially yet on the record what these decisions

17 are so as to allow the parties to continue to work and not to wait until

18 the end of January to hear about what those decisions are, but sometimes

19 we are running out of time, but we'll inform you then by informal means

20 of communication.

21 [The witness takes the stand]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

23 MR. LUKIC: I think my learned friend wanted to inquire with the

24 witness whether he has --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, you are right. Thank you for reminding me.

Page 42858

1 You earlier referred to database and other sources. Could you

2 tell us, first of all, what they are; second, whether they have --

3 whether you have them here with you here in The Hague.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are documents that I used in

5 my analysis, ICMP reports on exhumations and the asanacija, which I cited

6 in my footnotes. I have -- other than those documents, I have a

7 scientific study which was done by Mr. Cekic which I also mentioned in my

8 footnote, which was done by my colleague Mr. Masovic and another

9 colleague --

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and these are overviews of mass

12 graves as well as an overview of the localities where the asanacija were

13 carried out.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from the name of Mr. Masovic, you mentioned

15 another name. Could you please repeat that other name?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are my colleagues from the

17 institute. Mr. Masovic and then also Mr. Murat Hrtic [phoen] who was the

18 chief of the regional office.

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... to repeat the

20 name. That was the only thing I was asking.

21 And my second question was whether you have those materials with

22 you here in The Hague.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were submitted as part of the

24 analysis. They were submitted as attachments.

25 JUDGE ORIE: When did you give them to the Defence?

Page 42859

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave them to the Defence together

2 with the analysis.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have they been disclosed, Mr. Lukic?

4 MR. LUKIC: Everything we received we uploaded.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's move on. ICMP doesn't come as a

6 surprise perhaps. The other materials I leave it in your hands later to

7 explore what --

8 MR. MacDONALD: Well, Your Honour, just to say the list that

9 we're talking about, 1D06331, the material is there we -- apart from a

10 few witness statements mentioned also in the report. We don't have any

11 of them and the databases referred to, we don't have that either, so I'm

12 not sure what Mr. Pavlovic is saying what he gave to the Defence and

13 when.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know either. I can't answer the question at

15 this moment.

16 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Pavlovic, these witness statements that you relied on in this

19 table, do you have them with you?

20 A. Yes, I have them here. In electronic form.

21 Q. Since the Defence only has four or five witness statements from

22 this table, I think we found only four or five witness statements, how

23 many do you have with you? The Prosecution will probably ask you that

24 and will probably ask you to hand them over to them, if you can.

25 A. Yes, I will find them and submit them just as I did with the

Page 42860

1 other material. That's no problem.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 6 of this

4 document.

5 Q. We can see here that it says sanitization and the names on the

6 left-hand side, Sefik, Dugonic; Beriz, Pasic?

7 A. Yes, that's that.

8 Q. What does this group have -- talk about? What does it indicate?

9 A. Those two names, just like in previous cases, parts of the

10 skeleton were found on the ground on the surface and then the prosecutor

11 undertook some investigative work whereas the rest of the skeleton of

12 these two individuals was found in mass graves.

13 Q. Are you able to tell us which mass grave on the basis of what is

14 written here?

15 A. The first person was found in Zeleni Jadar 5. And then for the

16 second individual, it's the mass grave of Adzici in the municipality of

17 Bratunac.

18 Q. Thank you. Let's continue. I would now like us to look at the

19 second page of the document.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just try to explore --

21 Is there any dispute about certain body parts being found at

22 different locations in this respect?

23 Mr. McCloskey.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. This is the first we're

25 hearing of body parts that were found in the -- in the field and then

Page 42861

1 found in mass graves, and we don't have the -- you know, a complete idea

2 of the records, and we would like to get them. This is, as you pointed

3 out, a significant issue and the -- the quicker we can get the records

4 and get to the bottom of it, we'll be able to help.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: And cross-examine the person properly.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, this material, I mean, this apparently is

8 something of substance rather than that who is biased and who is doing

9 wrong, et cetera, this is a -- and that material was only received two

10 days does not clearly appear in the report. If you say it's important

11 because it's genocide, take your own work and the work of this expert

12 seriously. Because, as you may have noticed, I asked some questions

13 about this because this is probably a matter of substance, rather than a

14 lot of things which seem to -- have far less substance, but this was not

15 disclosed in time. Let's leave it to that at this moment and please

16 proceed, for the time being.

17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Are we on page 2?

18 Q. [Interpretation] We can see the fifth name. It's not actually

19 part of that category. But I'm going to ask you this. The next category

20 of examples indicating your reasons for believing that they are linked

21 with combat and mass graves, could you tell us what that is.

22 A. That is the group of examples that also leads to the possible

23 conclusion that this was done, that asanacija was carried out after

24 combat, and that the bodies were buried in mass graves. These are

25 statements that I went through of eye-witnesses of the events who

Page 42862

1 referred to the names of those who were killed in the breakthrough, so I

2 was tracing those persons to see where they were found, and I found that

3 some of those persons were exhumed from specific mass graves. And

4 according to witness statements that I looked at, they were killed during

5 breakthrough and they remained on the ground, on the surface.

6 Q. Could you please look at the third name on this page. Are you

7 able to tell us anything on the basis of that example?

8 A. This is a specific example of a person - I will not mention the

9 name - his brother gave a statement and when he provided the statement to

10 the security organs of the Bosniak side, he said that his brother had

11 died in Kamenica, which we already spoke about, but then the person was

12 exhumed from Glogova 2 and Bljeceva 2 mass graves, meaning that the body

13 parts were exhumed from two graves.

14 Q. Now we would need to look at page --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm still trying to find on page 2 in e-court, we're

16 dealing with which? I'm not inviting you to --

17 MR. LUKIC: Third from the top.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Third name from the top.

19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that. Yes.

21 MR. LUKIC: I think -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well, that's --

23 MR. LUKIC: We can say that name, I think. There is no ...

24 [Overlapping speakers] ...

25 JUDGE ORIE: The statement ... yes, I'm the overlapping speaker.

Page 42863

1 Apologies for that. Do we have that statement? Is it in evidence? Is

2 it available? Where is it?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Pavlovic.

5 A. I cannot say it off the top of my head, if I submitted it or not.

6 I submitted some statements additionally as well, so I just cannot say it

7 off the top of my head. The statements are with me. I have them. So I

8 can provide any of them, if any of them are missing.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald.

10 MR. MacDONALD: For the last two examples, both of the ones on

11 page 2, we did not receive those statements, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, we're unable to --

13 MR. LUKIC: I verified we did not -- because those statements

14 were brought late and we did not have time. We had that virus, we

15 couldn't upload anything, so we [Overlapping speakers] ...

16 JUDGE ORIE: You have them?

17 MR. LUKIC: I didn't even take them from Mr. Pavlovic since I

18 said it was -- it's too late, we cannot upload them but I think that he

19 can check.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

21 MR. LUKIC: And we are ready and I think that Mr. Pavlovic would

22 agree that he can be recalled for cross-examination if the Prosecution is

23 not ready to proceed and he will be -- can be back in a month. Because

24 of this issue, we anticipated and he agreed to be back whenever

25 necessary.

Page 42864

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald.

2 MR. MacDONALD: We found some statements, Your Honours, from a

3 search of our own systems, so we do have some cross-examination for

4 Mr. Pavlovic on this matter. But depending upon Your Honours' guidance,

5 it would be whether --

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... well, we'll consider how

7 to proceed whether you would already start cross-examination or that

8 cross-examination would be postponed or ... we'll consider that. But at

9 least it's clear that some of the materials a party may wish to have in

10 order to prepare for cross-examination may not be available at this

11 moment.

12 MR. LUKIC: And maybe my proposal, if Mr. MacDonald wants to sit

13 with somebody from the Registry and collect from Mr. Pavlovic what they

14 need, then just to be in presence of Registry.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That's all practicalities we'll consider.

16 MR. LUKIC: Okay --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

19 Next page we cannot broadcast. It's -- and we need page 5. So

20 it should not be broadcasted so technicians should be warned probably. I

21 don't know.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please look at the sixth name on this

23 page.

24 A. Yes, I see it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Is the statement

Page 42865

1 available which is mentioned here?

2 MR. LUKIC: Give me one second.

3 It's not disclosed through -- through us.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. What can you tell us?

7 A. In the statement of the witness of the event that he provided to

8 the security organ, it can be seen that that person in question died

9 during the breakthrough. I cannot now determine whether they died a

10 natural death or were killed, but they were found in the Zvornik 2 mass

11 grave.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I see only one name. You're talking about "they."

13 "They were found."

14 Is that the sixth on the list? I see that one name.

15 MR. LUKIC: I have one name too, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you explain why you said "they" where we

17 find only one name?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that specific individual was

19 found in the Zvornik 02 grave.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 7 of the

22 document.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And if you have any recollection still looking at

24 the present one, apparently there's witness statement who says he died

25 around Buljim. Do you remember whether that witness statement was a --

Page 42866

1 whether he observed him when he died? Or what did that witness say

2 exactly about the circumstances of death around Buljim?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I took examples where the

4 eye-witness said that they saw an individual die or get killed, not that

5 they heard but that they actually saw the person dying or being killed.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So if we would have a look at that statement, then

7 we would find that that person saw (redacted) die in the area of

8 Buljim. Is that your testimony?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Now, we're talking about a

10 different individual; is that correct? The one above the one that we

11 were talking about; is that right?

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry, I

13 didn't --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. I'm not

15 sure if we can mention names. Here the way it is phrased in the comment,

16 perhaps it's not precise enough, but I was taking examples that I

17 mentioned, i.e., exclusively examples where a witness said that they

18 actually were an eye-witness and saw the person get killed or die.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And that's then true for entry 5 and 6 of -- because

20 I refer to 5. I think you refer to 6. But both are the same in this

21 respect on page 5 in e-court; 5 out of 13.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Well, you talked about name 5 in response to Judge Orie's

25 question. Now, I would like to ask you about name number 7 on this same

Page 42867

1 page. Is that a similar example as the previous one?

2 A. Yes. According to the eye-witness statement, which he gave to

3 the security organs, this specific person was killed at the beginning of

4 the breakthrough in the area of Buljim on the 12th of July and was

5 exhumed from the Cerska mass grave.

6 Q. And then what did you tell us? The people that you cited here as

7 examples, were they found in primary or secondary, or both in primary and

8 secondary graves?

9 A. From what I was able to see, their bodily remains were found both

10 in primary and secondary graves.

11 Q. I would just like to say that on page 2 you already dealt with

12 Buljim and person number 5. Now, I would like to ask you what the next

13 group of examples is that would point to the conclusion that asanacija of

14 the terrain was carried out in 1995 when people killed in combat were

15 buried in mass graves?

16 A. The next group of examples --

17 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.

18 Mr. MacDonald.

19 MR. MacDONALD: That's an incredibly leading question,

20 Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- it certainly is. It's, at the same time, of

22 course, it's part of the report so therefore if doesn't -- I mean, the

23 main basis not putting leading questions you bring to mind of a person a

24 certain thought whereas if this is already explained in the report, it is

25 not bringing it to his mind.

Page 42868

1 MR. MacDONALD: I would agree but I think Your Honours asked

2 about where the different groups in this list are and there don't appear

3 to be any, so I don't understand.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Let's -- let's -- the mere fact that

5 it's to some extent leading does not result in me ruling that the witness

6 shouldn't answer the question.

7 Could you please answer the question? And if need be, Mr. Lukic

8 will repeat to you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer that question by

10 Mr. Lukic. I already started answering.

11 The next group of examples refers to persons who appear in death

12 certificates that are issued after the final identification has been done

13 and they're issued by the court. So next to the report of final

14 identification, a death certificate is issued. On the other side of the

15 document, towards the bottom, cause of death is mentioned and while

16 examining the certificates of death in some examples I observed that some

17 persons had sustained injuries from explosive devices and those persons

18 were exhumed from graves, and I enclosed those certificates of death with

19 the report.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get clarification.

21 The question was the next group and then you also answered about

22 the next group. Could I be guided as to what group is this that you are

23 talking about?

24 MR. LUKIC: Can we see page 8 of this document, Your Honour, and

25 then [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 42869

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... I'm looking -- I see

2 page 5 of the document.

3 MR. LUKIC: I first asked the question not to lead.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure, and I understand. I just --

5 MR. LUKIC: Okay, yeah.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to know what we are talking about.

7 MR. LUKIC: And now we are talking about page 8 from this

8 document. It will be shortly in front of us.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's better. Now I have something different.

10 So we're talking about the whole page?

11 MR. LUKIC: Now I will direct the attention of the witness to

12 Alic, Husein, and we will need ...

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: What number is he?

14 MR. LUKIC: We need row 2 on the right-hand side. So ...

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

16 MR. LUKIC: It's number 268 and we need right side of the page.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pavlovic, can you see --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... could we

19 see 268.

20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it's on the left-hand side. Can we. It's 288,

21 sorry. Or 286.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we are looking at the third row, number 288.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

24 JUDGE ORIE: 286 doesn't appear on page 8.

25 MR. LUKIC: It does.

Page 42870

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let me have a look.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it 286 or 288 you are talking about.

4 MR. LUKIC: Let me check. I'm semi-blind, Your Honour, you know

5 that.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I didn't know that.

7 MR. LUKIC: It's obvious. Give me one second. It's -- it's 288.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Do you see the name, Husein Alic?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. What can you -- will you please tell us what we should look at on

13 this page and what would you like to explain to us from this page?

14 A. Looking at the documents from the final identification of this

15 person and while reviewing the certificate of death that is signed by the

16 pathologist in the investigation, I saw that the injuries the person

17 sustained were of -- were caused by explosives and, as a result of that,

18 it seemed to point me in the direction of -- well, I know from the

19 operational sense, I know that the 28th Division was shelled, they ran

20 into mines, and they were also committing suicide by using grenades so

21 these would be possible injuries sustained by those means. So then I

22 said that after the asanation [as interpreted] these persons were buried

23 in mass graves.

24 JUDGE ORIE: What does that prove apart from that we haven't seen

25 the -- the post-mortem? At least I'm not aware of it. What does it

Page 42871

1 prove? It's -- you suggest, I think, that he must have died in a combat

2 situation where explosives were used. Could it be any other environment

3 where explosives were used? I mean, what's your conclusion? Apart from

4 that a person which apparently died from explosive -- I don't know yet,

5 shrapnel or other things. He was found in a mass grave. That's

6 apparently the facts you rely on. What does that tell us? More than

7 what I said.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I mentioned, I relied on witness

9 statements and ABiH military documents. It is clear from those sources

10 that the 28th Division was exposed to heavy artillery shelling. They

11 came upon minefields and committed suicide; in certain cases by hand

12 grenade. That is why I found it interesting, given the context and that

13 there is a possibility, in addition to other evidence I mentioned, that

14 this, too, could lead us to the assumption that after combat there was

15 asanacija and that people were buried in mass graves.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But could you exclude that explosives were

17 used in other circumstances?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In terms of this specific location,

19 I can't say anything. I'm simply trying to raise an issue, open up a

20 possibility. I did not draw a conclusion. There is a possibility that

21 would be in keeping with some other sources.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I now better understand.

23 Mr. Lukic, those materials, are they available? Because you

24 point at a specific example, so I take it that you have reviewed the

25 underlying documentation. Apart from the format of this part of the

Page 42872

1 report being totally different from what we saw before, any explanation

2 for that to be elicited from the witness?

3 Witness, we see numbers; not sequential. We see all kind of

4 information. That's quite different from what we saw in the beginning.

5 What explains the difference in format between the beginning of this

6 report and the present portion we're looking at?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is it a question for me?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 THE WITNESS: Okay. [Interpretation] As I said already, this was

10 a kind of overview of mine of certain examples that I forwarded to the

11 Defence, and this is how they decided to present it.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Do I then understand that the Defence has created

13 these green lines, et cetera, totally different from these first part of

14 these examples, and if what is the case I'd like to know. Mr. Lukic

15 seems to be nodding no. So he is apparently not accepting an answer

16 which says that you gave it to the Defence and it was formatted by them.

17 MR. LUKIC: We merged those two documents into one. That's what

18 we did but we didn't put this green --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Where does this material come from? Let's say on

20 from page 8 where the different format starts and of which we see now the

21 first page, page 8 to 12, I think, or perhaps even 13.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... which is a totally

24 different format. Could you tell us where you got that from? Witness.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I created this overview, and, in

Page 42873

1 principle, there were two different formats, but the issue on hand is the

2 same.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The numbers we start with, that is, the

4 very -- the grave-site number, where is that taken from and what does it

5 present?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you can see -- I'm sorry. This

7 is basic information about each location. It's a kind of overview. As I

8 was going through everything, I was creating a sort of an outline or

9 overview for me to find things more easily. That is what I relied on.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I was talking about numbers. I see that the first

11 entry bears number 281; the second is 286; the third is 288. That at

12 least suggests that there was a list with sequential numbers. Is it

13 taken from any other list? What do these numbers stand for?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I copied it from different sources.

15 I can't recall exactly what the figures stand for precisely. The number

16 is unimportant to me specifically. There's no reason for me to deal with

17 it. What was important to me for my work were the co-ordinates the

18 exhumation dates, locations, designation of location, that is what was

19 important for my work.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it may -- if we are in these kind of numbers,

21 it suggests that there were over 200 and even goes far beyond that.

22 Numbers of grave-sites, is that a mass grave-site, is that an

23 individual grave? Because I see that the co-ordinates are quite

24 different as well. As far as I can see now, none of them corresponds

25 with another, which suggests a lot of graves and that may be relevant for

Page 42874

1 us.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The co-ordinates describe

3 particular locations and they have to vary from location to location.

4 When discussing specific events there were many exhumations and asanacija

5 exercises.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, sometimes if you have a mass grave the

7 co-ordinate would be the same, isn't it. You would have a lot of bodies

8 in exactly the same location. Yes. Okay. You apparently agree with

9 that. Now, if you have 200 or 300 different locations, then we are

10 apparently moving from mass graves to individual graves and therefore I'm

11 asking you what does this all mean? Are these people found in individual

12 graves, are these people found in mass graves and ...

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we go to the right of the table,

14 you will see the type of grave. Is it a mass grave, individual grave, is

15 it asanacija, meaning on the surface. But we need to go to the right of

16 the table.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's do so. Because we'd like to understand

18 what is presented to us as evidence.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's good. Each line describes a

20 location, and it is stated whether it is a primary or secondary mass

21 grave or is it part of asanacija. Every line stands for one location,

22 and it also includes some of my comments with regard to specific

23 locations.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say "every line," which line are you

25 talking about?

Page 42875

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lines from left to right. I'm

2 not discussing columns. I'm discussing the lines.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: I see two columns. One is MG, mass grave; and the

5 next column is type of grave.

6 Now, the mass grave, there are numbers with it. What do these

7 numbers stand for? For the number of dead people found there or --

8 what -- what does it mean?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the total number of bodies

10 and parts of bodies found in a specific mass grave, be it primary or

11 secondary, as we can see in the next column.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which seems to suggest that there were a lot

13 of different mass graves dealt with here. Because we have all different

14 numbers, 1 -- 288, 224, 242, 200, 305, 244. These are all different mass

15 graves then.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And do you have a complete list of mass graves which

18 were considered?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We see here the mass graves that

20 were encompassed in my work. It doesn't mean they are all here, and it

21 does not include such locations where mortal remains were found on the

22 ground. This is just a portion that was important to me for what I was

23 doing.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question was: Do you have a complete list of

25 mass graves which you considered? Do you know how many mass graves

Page 42876

1 you -- you looked at, you considered?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the list more or less, the

3 one I dealt with.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did deal with a full list of all

6 mass or individual graves.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But just --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is not the question. The question is the

10 full list of the graves that you looked at, that you investigated, not

11 the full list of graves, of mass graves, but the list of those that you

12 considered. These ones, how many are they?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The list is before us. This is the

14 list.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So we move a little bit to the left, further

17 to the left of this.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: To the left. Not to the right.

19 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I have --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's it.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I would like to go to the beginning of this page.

23 Yeah. That's here. Here. Here. Here.

24 Now if you look at the heading in red, it says grave-site number.

25 Now, my -- from that, I read and I thought you explained that earlier,

Page 42877

1 that the 281 is the number of the grave. Is that what you said? At some

2 stage you said it didn't mean anything to you, but then you later said it

3 was the number of the grave.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the number of location

5 chronologically, either of a mass grave or a location where bodies were

6 found on the surface. That's all. It was unimportant to me. What was

7 important to me was to have the location, the date, what was found --

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you are

9 explaining something that I'm not asking.

10 Let me ask. We see on this page, the highest number is 344.

11 Assuming that that is -- I'm just making an assumption that is the

12 highest number of these graves here. Is it -- does it mean that, in

13 fact, you saw 344 -- or there were 344 graves around?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you are discussing the topic or

15 theme of my work, I did, say, 200 exhumations per day. In the course of

16 my work, over 700 were performed there were many exhumations an examples

17 of asanacija. So those figures are great.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: But a great number of people can be found in one

19 grave. I'm not talking about the number of people exhumed. I am not

20 talking about the number of graves from where exhumations took place.

21 I'm asking: Should we accept that the number of graves, whether they are

22 mass graves or single graves, goes up to 344.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Are you discussing a specific

24 event or are you talking about exhumations in general in Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina?

Page 42878

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not about a specific, I'm not asking about

2 exhumations. I'm talking about the number of graves out of which

3 exhumations took place. I'm saying is it your evidence that right

4 through the war the number of various graves that can be associated does

5 go as far as 344, possibly more because you didn't investigate all of

6 them.

7 So 344 would be the number of graves the heading says grave-site

8 number. So number of the grave-site, that's what the heading says, and

9 I'm saying: Were there 344 grave-sites?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Bosnia and Herzegovina, there

11 were many grave-sites, many more than 344.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've answered my question. That's all I've been

13 asking for, for all this time.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, could I, a bit on the same subject. Could we

15 move slightly further to the right. Yes, there we are. That's what I

16 need.

17 We see one column, type of grave. On the first entry, it says:

18 Secondary mass grave and the line before that, it says MG, mass grave,

19 and gives a number. You told us that that is the number of bodies

20 exhumed from that mass grave. Is that well understood?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I ask you to move just a

22 little further to the right, please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is good. Thank you.

25 It actually represents examples from the fourth group, as I refer

Page 42879

1 to it, that I found interesting.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- as can you see --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you mind to answer my question.

5 288, did I well understand that, for the first entry, that 288 is

6 the number of persons exhumed from that mass grave?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the total number. We are

8 discussing the column before the column where we see secondary mass

9 grave. So 288. It's the total number of bodies and bodily parts exhumed

10 from that specific mass grave. So full bodies and parts of bodies. And

11 then I classified it further.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So these classifications are done by you?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked on the column entitled:

14 Complete bodies. I checked that and I can explain why.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Did you check it or did you establish it?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I arrived at these figures by

17 checking the documents I had at my disposal, which I have already

18 referenced. I can explain what it means and what I did.

19 JUDGE ORIE: No, I now slowly start seeing what the document is

20 about. Took me a while but that's perhaps I'm a bit slow.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

22 Mr. MacDonald.

23 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Just for the record to say that again the Prosecution was unaware

25 these were two different reports, nor had the Defence formatted them, nor

Page 42880

1 have we the underlying material.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's hereby on the record.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. [Interpretation] You mentioned the fourth category. Please

6 explain what you wanted to say. We already dealt with the first three.

7 What would be the fourth?

8 A. In trying to trace the bodies of those who perished in the

9 breakthrough, what struck me as illogical was that there was a certain

10 number of complete bodies in graves defined as secondary mass graves. In

11 keeping with our practice and based on my experience in the sector and

12 that of my colleagues, it was illogical to have such high numbers of

13 complete bodies in secondary graves, because those bodies are usually dug

14 up by construction machinery and put on a truck and then unloaded from

15 the truck into the next grave after a certain period of time. So there

16 should have been decay of tissue and dispersion, literally put. The

17 bodies must have fallen apart to a certain extent, and that raised

18 issues.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I think no one asked the picture to be moved. Could

20 we go back to where we were. Yes.

21 So you're surprised by the number of complete bodies in the

22 secondary mass graves. Let's have a look at entry number 1, yes, we

23 leave it to that secondary mass grave, complete bodies 50, body parts

24 238. For the second, could you explain what body parts there means

25 because you said 224 was the number of bodies exhumed. Complete bodies,

Page 42881

1 224. And apparently some 47 other things remained there as well.

2 Do you know what that stands for, 47 cases BP or RAV01-?-? What

3 does that stand for?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now we're talking about a primary

5 grave at Ravnice Glogova.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... we'll move onto

7 the next one. It's the secondary grave at entry number 3. Twenty-six

8 complete bodies, where 242 were exhumed.

9 Next item, secondary mass grave 59 complete bodies.

10 Next one, secondary mass grave out of 305, 9 complete bodies.

11 Next entry, 79 complete bodies out of 244. You say you were

12 surprised by the number because you would expect body parts to fall off.

13 If I read this, most of the bodies were incomplete and only a very

14 limited number anywhere between -- I would say anywhere between 5 and 25

15 or 30 per cent were complete bodies. What did then surprise you so much

16 about these numbers?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If a body part found in a mass

18 grave doesn't mean it's an entity in and of itself. As you can see, if

19 you look at the fourth secondary mass grave, 200 were exhumed, 200

20 complete body parts, out of those, there were 59 complete bodies and 98

21 entities arrived from the location in total.

22 It means that a number of different body parts can represent a

23 single entity. If we look at the sixth example of Kamenica Cancari 02;

24 244 was the total of remains exhumed. Out of that 79 complete bodies,

25 165 body parts and out of that, 113 were identified. In other words,

Page 42882

1 body parts -- a number of body parts usually means that they may belong

2 to a single set of bones so out of 113 total identified there were 79

3 complete bodies, and the rest of these identities were arrived at based

4 on the study of the body parts assembled rather than complete bodies.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Although it's not an answer to my question, I

6 noticed that where you earlier said that the number in the column mass

7 grave with a number was bodies exhumed and you apparently now are telling

8 me, which perhaps may be very logical that it's not bodies exhumed from

9 that, but that it could be bodies or body parts.

10 Please proceed.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do, in this column where you say ID

12 total, you call that entities. What do you mean by entities?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Actually I meant to say identity.

14 Identity of a person.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

16 JUDGE ORIE: Does -- I do understand that that's then -- how many

17 individuals with distinct features could be established on the basis of

18 what was found in a mass grave; for example, by identification through

19 DNA?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It means what the final

21 number of those who were identified by DNA analysis was.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

23 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

25 Yes, Mr. MacDonald.

Page 42883

1 MR. MacDONALD: Just very briefly, Your Honour.

2 It appears from the answer to Mr. Lukic's question, the witness

3 states there should have been decay of tissue and dispersion, literally

4 put. And that, as a basis for his categorisation here, the Prosecution's

5 submission this is far outside of his expertise. He is not a forensic

6 pathologist, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: No. Though it could be part of the experience of

8 someone who is involved in identification. Because the different body

9 parts may play a role in double identification. So it's on the record,

10 but I would not be too much concerned about that.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Do you think the job is finished after producing

14 this table?

15 A. No. These are simply some of my observations based on experience

16 and expertise. I raised issues. As is generally the case concerning

17 these events, investigative measures need to be performed in order to see

18 why this was possible, how was it possible that there was such a high

19 number of complete bodies as well as the rest, how it all came about.

20 Q. You attended these exhumations.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you see what kind of machinery was used?

23 A. For the most part, they were loaders with a fork --

24 Q. How big is this fork or spoon?

25 A. It can be up to 2 metres or so. Then diggers are also used with

Page 42884

1 the spoon moving from up/down to put the load onto a truck. That one is

2 about 1 and a half metres, I think. But I can't really say anything

3 specifically. It needs to be checked. I don't know what specific kind

4 of machinery was used to dig up the primary graves and how the load was

5 put onto trucks. Depends on specific cases. And I think it is

6 important; however, I do not have the necessary information to comment.

7 I do suppose, though, that similar machinery was used to the machinery

8 that we have.

9 Q. Let's look at page 2 briefly because there's a name we will need.

10 The third name on the page, Amir Zukanovic. According to the

11 statement of a witness he died at the beginning of the breakthrough.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we on the right page?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the page. The fifth

14 person.

15 MR. LUKIC: It's the fifth person. Sorry.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Do keep this name in mind.

19 Let us look at [In English] [Previous translation continues] ...

20 that this document is not for broadcast. It is P01901. It's ICMP list.

21 And we need page 209 in English. English version only, please. We don't

22 need B/C/S.

23 [Interpretation] We see that very name in the fourth line of this

24 document. Although there were witnesses who claimed that he was killed,

25 he is on this list.

Page 42885

1 In your view, is it fine to have somebody who is claimed to have

2 been killed found on the ICMP list?

3 A. I don't see anything strange with this person being on the list.

4 This is the list of missing persons as reported by their family members.

5 So we should have all those included who potentially died during the

6 breakthrough. These are all of the people who died through the

7 breakthrough under different circumstances and their families were not

8 familiar with their fate. So there is nothing there that would be in

9 dispute. I think one of the Judges also commented upon it when

10 Mr. Milutin Misic was testifying the date and place of disappearance as

11 designated here is only initial information in order to continue

12 searching for that person. I don't see anything problematic about this,

13 if I understood your question correctly.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. But can I understand something about the

15 last part of your answer. You're saying it is initial information in

16 order to continue searching for that person.

17 I see this very number 4 person, it looks like this person's

18 remains were found in a grave-site in Cerska. Is there anything that

19 still needs to be done if he has been found and identified. We say he is

20 identified. What still has to be done with him?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a list with the first and

22 last name and everything else, including the preliminary information as

23 to where the person was reported to have gone missing. But specifically

24 the judicial and investigative information, it's investigation I don't

25 know where that was done and I don't know where the person was assumed to

Page 42886

1 have gone missing. This is a list to trace or search for missing

2 persons.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... you said this

4 is a list which must be used to continue searching for the person. I'm

5 saying the last column says grave-site and my understanding -- if I

6 misunderstand, please tell me. My reading means that the first person

7 was found in Zeleni Jadar grave-site. Other one in Ravnice. Other one

8 in Sandici. My question to you was: If the remains are found in the

9 grave-site, why do you say their search must still be continued? They've

10 been found.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In that specific case, yes.

12 All I said was that all the persons were there who were killed in the

13 breakthrough, in combat and everybody else is there as well. So I don't

14 see anything of dispute in the fact that that person is located there.

15 When I meant further investigation, I meant persons who had still not

16 been identified. Perhaps I made an error there. I focussed on the place

17 where it says date and place of disappearance. This is the starting

18 point for the information. This is where the process begins.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and what we have to do, first of all, is to

21 look at that statement of a person who gave information about when and

22 where he died because the quote is about the moment but just limited to

23 that. And that's, of course, what the Chamber would like to have a look

24 at, to be able to further explore what now appears on this list and

25 whether what that tells us.

Page 42887

1 Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock. You said you needed ten

2 minutes. We went through a few things. Well, I think, as a matter of

3 fact, overall that you had your ten minutes and you had got far more

4 information by questions put by the Chamber.

5 MR. LUKIC: I finished. I just want to tender this document.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. LUKIC: So then we would like to hear from the Prosecution

8 how would they like to proceed. Obviously, they cannot finish today.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we don't need to do that in the presence of the

10 witness.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is this document number?

12 MR. LUKIC: It's 1D06331.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please activate your microphone.

16 THE REGISTRAR: 1D6331 will be Exhibit D1399 under seal.

17 MR. MacDONALD: Sorry, Your Honours. The Prosecution would

18 object to this document coming in at this time. There's a whole number

19 of reasons for that. Firstly, the late receipt of this, the lack of the

20 underlying materials. Beyond that, we consider this list, in essence, to

21 be part of the report. It's the analysis of the accused -- witness, my

22 apologies, and we consider it should have been part of his report. On

23 that basis, we would ask Your Honours to treat it in the same way. MFI

24 it just now, hear cross-examination on it, potentially some more things

25 and then decide in the due course of time whether Your Honours also

Page 42888

1 accept it or not.

2 MR. LUKIC: We do not object to this approach.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, I would like to have it MFI'd. I

4 would like to repeat the number. I've forgotten it, and it does not yet

5 already appear on the transcript.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: D1399.

7 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 1D06331 will be MFI D1399, under seal.

8 JUDGE ORIE: D1399 is marked for identification.

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: And why is it under seal?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Because the parties indicated that at least some of

11 the pages were containing confidential information. Therefore, it's

12 marked for identification, under seal.

13 Witness, you may already follow the usher.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: We were just considering how to proceed,

17 Mr. MacDonald. The first question is whether we'd try to finish the

18 cross-examination of this witness today which seems not to be feasible.

19 Because there's too many open matters, especially underlying materials

20 which are not clarified. That's one.

21 The second issue is that if such materials would be provided, we

22 should find a way to communicate with the witness what he's expected to

23 provide because the Defence, at this moment, is not in a position to

24 further sit down with him anymore.

25 Our initial thoughts now are that we would not start the

Page 42889

1 cross-examination today. That we would do that early February. And,

2 second, that the Defence and the Prosecution would sit together and to

3 make a list of materials, either by a precise description such as witness

4 statement of Mr. A, B, and C, referred to in this document, page

5 so-and-so, entry 3, and perhaps in more general terms, we'd like to have

6 any database produced by whatever -- I mean, you have gone through his

7 report. Sometimes it's clear what he relied on. Sometimes it's less

8 clear. And there, of course, we would -- you may not be in a position to

9 identify with utmost precision what you are seeking but at least you

10 could give a hint at what you need so as in order to prepare for

11 cross-examination. Those would be our thoughts at this moment. I give

12 you until after the break to consider that and perhaps even discuss it

13 amongst yourselves, and if we would not continue today, then I would have

14 a bit of a list of agenda items still to be considered today.

15 MR. MacDONALD: Just one comment, Your Honours. If you don't

16 mind, the Prosecution would request to begin cross-examination today, in

17 particular with the list my friend has gone over with the witness. We

18 believe that we can begin to cross-examine him effectively given some of

19 the materials we have.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You think it really be important to start. And how

21 much time would you need for that.

22 MR. MacDONALD: I would hope to finish with materials we have

23 found I would hope to be finish that topic today, Your Honours. If we

24 had about 40 minutes perhaps and then perhaps continue with the new

25 materials.

Page 42890

1 JUDGE ORIE: We have after the break we would have another 25

2 minutes and we could extend until, if that is agreeable for the Defence -

3 Mr. Lukic, could you carefully listen as well - we can continue today

4 until 3.00 at the ultimate. But we have a few matters as well we'd like

5 to raise. If you say you can make -- and if you prefer to start your

6 cross-examination and, well, let's say, use 40 minutes today, you would

7 have from ten minutes to 2.00 to 2.30 and then half an hour would be left

8 to deal with some agenda items. We'll consider that for a possibility

9 and then the witness to be re-called for further cross-examination.

10 Mr. Lukic, any comments on this.

11 MR. LUKIC: No comments at all. Whatever Your Honours find

12 appropriate.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I wouldn't be so generous if I were you.

14 We take a break and resume at ten minutes to 2.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 1.27 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 1.50 p.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Have the parties met already to see how they could

18 organise getting additional background materials from the witness?

19 MR. MacDONALD: No, Your Honour. Not yet. And in terms of what

20 Your Honours thoughts were, the Prosecution would have the following

21 comments. That this witness appears to have brought material which my

22 friend refused to take and we don't know what's in there. We don't know

23 the universe of that material so in terms of making a list of what we

24 don't have, it's not possible for us to do that. So we would like all

25 the material that the witness brought, Your Honour.

Page 42891

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that point. The witness at one point in

2 time said that he consulted hundreds of thousands of documents. I don't

3 know whether you're seeking hundreds of thousands of documents. And the

4 reason why I referred to that is because sometimes it is clear that

5 relies on materials which is not available and there is a clear reference

6 to a statement of Witness A or B or C and to include to start with and if

7 you'd like to have the other 900.000 documents, then try to phrase it in

8 such a way.

9 MR. MacDONALD: I can say just now, Your Honour, certainly the

10 witness statements the witness has identified he relies upon. But

11 there's also, if Your Honour would recall, he said he checked databases

12 at his work. We need that as well.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess what Judge Orie is trying to say is that

14 maybe, instead of asking for materials that he brought, you must ask fro

15 materials that he relied on for his report.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: I know that we provided Mr. Pavlovic with the

18 documents disclosed by the Prosecution to us.

19 [The witness takes the stand]

20 MR. LUKIC: So that's why [Overlapping speakers] ...

21 JUDGE ORIE: If you have a list of documents you provided to the

22 expert then it might be helpful and therefore it's good if you would

23 meet, that you make a list of what those materials are.

24 MR. LUKIC: Those are batches we received from the Prosecution.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That may already assist. Perhaps not in

Page 42892

1 every detail.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I apologise, Your Honour, but it's very clear

3 that this man brought materials that he refused to take and said it was

4 too late. That's what we want.

5 MR. LUKIC: Okay.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: As well as everything he reasonably relied on and

7 we can work that out.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's first start --

9 MR. LUKIC: Just for the record, we do not object to any

10 disclosure by this witness. I'm just telling you that really hundreds of

11 thousands of documents that he went through and whether he read

12 everything we don't know.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well.

14 Mr. Pavlovic, we'll now start with the cross-examination of you.

15 We'll go on until approximately 2.30, perhaps 2.35. I do understand that

16 you feel a bit tired. That will not conclude your evidence in this

17 courtroom. We'll give you further instructions and we'll further address

18 this matter at the end of the first part of the cross-examination.

19 You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. MacDonald. Perhaps if you

20 move to him and -- yes, you wanted to ask me something?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I don't know if I

22 have the right to say so. But, actually, I am not feeling very well.

23 Before the end of the previous session I was actually thinking about

24 asking you to cut the hearing short. I do have some physical limitations

25 in the neck area, and I am not feeling that well. So what I would like

Page 42893

1 to ask you, is if I may be excused from testifying further today, if we

2 could finish today, because I'm not able to continue. I'm concerned that

3 I will just simply not be able to focus enough and follow the proceedings

4 if we continue the way that I'm feeling now.

5 So that is what I wanted to ask you, Your Honour, if possible.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we decide on your request, I'd like to hear

7 from the parties. I'm especially interested to hear from the parties

8 because the Chamber felt that the Prosecution had a certain specific

9 interest in starting cross-examination today.

10 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour, and if I may add, we will

11 address some of the examples that Mr. Lukic addressed with the witness,

12 and we believe we've found some of the documents that Your Honour was

13 asking for, that Mr. Pavlovic relied upon.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that point. But do we -- the issue was

15 whether we could continue at this very moment or not. That's the issue.

16 It is clear that you had -- apparently a keen interest in starting today

17 rather than to wait for another four or five weeks, six weeks. If

18 there's any specific point which you'd like to raise in a shorter period

19 of time, we'd like to know.

20 MR. MacDONALD: Not beyond the submissions we've made. If the

21 witness is feeling ill, it's in Your Honours' hands with regards to what

22 happens.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

24 MR. LUKIC: I just know that Mr. Pavlovic cannot sit for a long

25 time. While we were working he had to stand up and stand for a while --

Page 42894

1 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

2 MR. LUKIC: What?

3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll not invite him to stand to give his testimony.

4 That's ...

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll meet your request, Witness. That is, that

7 we'll not yet adjourn but at least that we'll not continue to hear your

8 evidence at this moment, and we'd like to see you back somewhere early in

9 February. Perhaps it would be best to start with this witness as the

10 first witness.

11 I, again, instruct you that you should not speak about your

12 testimony with whomever or communicate in writing, whatever, but whatever

13 means, testimony already given or still to be given and that would be

14 valid for the -- until you reappear in this courtroom.

15 Apart from that, you may have noticed that this Chamber was often

16 seeking access to materials underlying either your report or certainly

17 the document we discussed where you gave us, you said, examples of -- of

18 where you had question marks, at least matters you thought to be further

19 explored. That's one category.

20 Then, second, you apparently brought materials to The Hague where

21 there was insufficient time for the Defence to go through them with you.

22 Could you tell us how much material that is?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a lot. A lot of material that

24 I went through. But what I've understood what this refers to, it refers

25 to this last material that we were going through. Mainly witness

Page 42895

1 statements, witnesses who saw people killed during the breakthrough. And

2 I think that is what is missing. Certain statements.

3 At this point, though, I cannot say whether I found the

4 statements in the documents that I received from the Defence. I assume

5 that that was so for the majority of the cases and then also --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Whatever you brought to The Hague, are you willing

7 to share that with the Chamber and you give it to the Victims and Witness

8 Section? Because you're not in a position to discuss the matters either

9 with the Prosecution or with the Defence. Are you willing to share all

10 that material you brought to The Hague with the Tribunal?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, of course, that's what I

12 was told by the Defence also when I received it that it was strictly

13 confidential that I cannot show it anywhere, and that when we finish with

14 my testimony, to return the entire material to the Defence. And all the

15 rest that I used --

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... all the rest

17 that you used ...

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The rest that I used, if it's not

19 from the database of documents that I got from the Defence, of course,

20 I'm going to make everything available to you. Because, of course, I

21 wouldn't have used it in the first place if I didn't intend to provide

22 that as documentation that I used in the process of my work. I hope that

23 that is clear.

24 JUDGE ORIE: You're therefore invited -- could you make that

25 available in electronic format, those materials.

Page 42896

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, of course.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Because if it's a lot perhaps it's better to

3 start -- and would you keep any originals that you may have apart from

4 giving electronic versions to the Victims and Witness Section. That

5 would also include databases, whatever you used, because we were

6 struggling with the supporting materials.

7 When do you think you could make that available, if it's ...

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tomorrow. I'm going to sit down

9 today to try and find everything and to give it to the service, as you

10 called it, the section for Victims and Witnesses. I assume that they

11 will get in touch with me, that they will be in touch with me, so that I

12 could give these materials to them.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They certainly will be in touch with you.

14 It's highly appreciated that you want to do it immediately that the

15 Prosecution has sufficient time to further review those materials.

16 Well, I have given you my instructions. I would like to thank

17 you for your co-operation in providing us the materials.

18 Mr. Lukic.

19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I'm sorry, also if Mr. Pavlovic used any

20 database apart from our database maybe, I don't know, what he used, maybe

21 something -- it's something from other organisations. Maybe he should be

22 instructed to share that with Your Honours as well.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I thought that was included in my instructions

24 but to avoid any lack of clarity. Whatever you used as databases also

25 perhaps what you didn't get from the Defence, if you have any other

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1 databases which I used, don't hesitate to include those in the materials

2 you are providing to us.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Including the materials that I

4 received from the Defence. That is also what you mean, isn't it? Right.

5 Right.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Everything. Because we want to avoid that in a

7 month's time, we are sitting here and have to establish that we still do

8 not have access or at least, the parties would not have access to

9 underlying materials.

10 Then you excused for the moment. You'll hear when -- through the

11 Victims and Witness Section when we'd like to see you back. If there are

12 any dates when you are not available - I'm thinking in terms of the first

13 half of February - please inform the Victims and Witness Section about

14 unavailability in that period of time.

15 THE WITNESS: Mm-hm.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then you may now follow the usher. I hope that you

17 feel better soon.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for your

19 understanding.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll use the time to deal with a few matters

22 on the agenda. The Chamber always tries to have an empty agenda before

23 we go for longer periods of recess. In order to avoid any

24 misunderstanding when I announced an extended session prior to that we

25 had explored to that extent that was possible at all, and, again, we