1 Thursday, 27 October 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Are we ready for the witness, Mr. Moore?
6 MR. MOORE: Yes. I believe so. Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, doctor. If I could remind you of the
10 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence, which still
12 WITNESS: VESNA BOSANAC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.
15 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
16 Examined by Mr. Moore: [Continued]
17 Q. Doctor, I'd like to deal now, please, with the following dates,
18 the 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st. May we deal, please, with the evening of
19 the 18th of November. Now, you've already told us that on the 18th you
20 had sent various faxes. Can you in very general terms tell us what the
21 general atmosphere was on the 18th and what occurred, please, and can you
22 try and keep your answers short?
23 A. The atmosphere was very difficult, because previous information
24 that we received that on the 18th the evacuation would start turned out
25 not to materialise. An increasing number of civilians was arriving at the
1 hospital and since we had ran out of food and water and blankets and since
2 there were many women, children and the elderly, the situation was very
4 Q. How many civilians actually came to the hospital on the 18th, in
5 very general terms?
6 A. It's hard to say, but more than 500. The entire upper storey
7 which previously was vacant was filled with civilians.
8 Q. Did those civilians remain at the hospital that day and
9 afterwards? Can you tell us what happened to them?
10 A. On that day, and the following days, rather up until the following
11 day they remained at the hospital.
12 Q. Where were they kept? Where were they staying?
13 A. They were in the main hospital building, where we stayed in the
14 underground premises, rather, the basement, and they were in the hallway
15 on the ground floor and the first floor.
16 Q. Did you either see or were you aware of any evacuation of
17 civilians on the 18th?
18 A. In the negotiations that were conducted in Zagreb, it was said
19 that civilians would be evacuated as well. Marin Vidic was in charge of
20 the evacuation of civilians. He was the government commissioner for the
21 municipality of Vukovar. On the 18th the -- there should have been an
22 evacuation of the wounded in the hospital whereas on the 19th and the 20th
23 the civilians were supposed to be evacuated. This is what I learned on
24 that day.
25 Q. Can we move to the 19th, please? What was your expectation? What
1 did you think was going to happen on the 19th of November?
2 A. Based on my previous conversation with Minister Hebrang on Monday,
3 the 18th, instead of arriving on Monday, the 18th, the Red Cross was
4 supposed to arrive at 8.00 on the 19th, arrive at the hospital.
5 Therefore, we expected that the evacuation would take one day longer,
6 since the European monitors had called to say that they weren't able to
7 arrive on that day, so they were expected on the 19th.
8 Q. When you say 8.00, is that 8.00 in the morning or 8.00 in the
10 A. Morning.
11 Q. So who actually arrived on the 19th?
12 A. At 8.00 in the morning, on the 19th, nobody arrived. I called
13 Minister Hebrang again and was told that he was on his way to Vinkovci and
14 Nustar to await a convoy there. I spoke to Dr. Branic. I spoke twice to
15 General Raseta and informed him that nobody had come, that there was no
16 International Red Cross there.
17 Q. And what did General Raseta then say to you when you informed him
18 of this fact?
19 A. Based on his information, the International Red Cross was in
20 Vukovar, and was by the bridge. I understood this to mean the railway
21 bridge. Therefore, Marin Vidic, another associate of mine, Senka Vuko,
22 and I went to the railway bridge which was located near the hospital to
23 see whether the representatives of the ICRC were there. That was the
24 first time that we saw trucks full of soldiers there, full of soldiers and
25 reservists, who were there at the bridge and were directing civilians who
1 were in a street called Priljevo into the trucks. That was on the 19th in
2 the morning.
3 Q. You've told --
4 A. Around 11.00 in the morning.
5 Q. Thank you very much indeed. You've told us, I think that you
6 spoke to General Raseta more than once. You've told us about one
7 telephone conversation. What about the other telephone conversations?
8 Did you phone him that day again?
9 A. Yes. I called again to say that they were not on the bridge. The
10 soldiers who were at the bridge told me that they knew nothing about any
11 Red Cross whatsoever, and that they were told to go up until the bridge
12 but not cross the bridge, to go to the hospital. I called General Raseta
13 once again and he tried to calm me down, telling me that everything would
14 be all right, and that I should try to get in touch with Colonel Mrksic
15 because he was in charge of that area. I told him that I didn't know how
16 I could get in touch with him and he told me I needn't worry, that they
17 would find me.
18 Q. So did you speak to Colonel Mrksic that day as --
19 A. I did once.
20 Q. Can you tell us when it was, please and how it arose?
21 A. It was on the 19th, on Tuesday. I received a call. I know that
22 Colonel Mrksic told me that everything would be all right, that he was
23 from Vukovar himself, that we attended the same high school, and that
24 everything would be fine.
25 Q. Did you actually meet Colonel Mrksic that day?
1 A. I did. I met with him on Tuesday, on the 19th, in the afternoon,
2 in Negoslavci.
3 Q. And can you tell us how that arose that you went to Negoslavci,
5 A. At around 12.00, a jeep arrived at the hospital, carrying an
6 officer of the JNA and some soldiers. I went outside and inquired whether
7 the International Red Cross and the European monitors were accompanying
8 them. They said no. He said that he hadn't seen them anywhere in the
9 vicinity. I told him that I was expecting them to arrive at the hospital
10 and asked where I could find them, and then he told me that he had seen
11 some vehicles of European monitors in the village of Negoslavci. Then I
12 asked him whether he could take me there.
13 Q. And did you go there with him?
14 A. Yes. I told my colleagues at the hospital and Marin Vidic that I
15 was going to Negoslavci. Then this officer of the Yugoslav People's Army,
16 I don't know his name or rank, drove me to the village of Negoslavci, to a
17 private house there that had -- that was designated as the Main Staff. It
18 had a sign saying something to that effect. I went inside and I met
19 Colonel Mrksic there.
20 Q. Now, you've told us that you were expecting monitors or the Red
21 Cross. They weren't there. Did you mention this to Colonel Mrksic on
22 this occasion?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. And what did he say about the absence of monitors and the
1 A. He said that the monitors would arrive and the Red Cross as well,
2 but that that was not important, but because they were just in the way.
3 They were preventing us from agreeing on evacuation among ourselves. It
4 was easier for us to do that than getting the international observers and
5 the Red Cross involved.
6 Q. When that suggestion was made to you, how did you react to that?
7 What was your view?
8 A. I told him that we could not negotiate on evacuation because the
9 agreement had already been signed between the Croatian government and the
10 representative of the JNA, General Raseta, International Red Cross, and
11 European monitors. I said that it had already been agreed that the
12 hospital ought to have been evacuated. That was supposed to happen on the
13 previous day. That the routes had already been agreed upon and that
14 people were awaiting us in Nustar. I told him that the situation at the
15 hospital was very difficult, that there was gaseous gangrene spreading
16 around, and that evacuation should begin as soon as possible.
17 Q. Did you discuss to him -- did you discuss with him the requirement
18 or your desire to have the monitors actually there when the evacuation was
19 going to occur?
20 A. I said that that included the agreement signed in Zagreb, namely
21 that the evacuation would be organised by the International Red Cross in
22 the presence of European monitors.
23 Q. Now, you told us that you had been informed that monitors were in
24 Negoslavci and you went to Negoslavci originally to see them. Did you
25 actually see them when you were there visiting Colonel Mrksic?
1 A. I saw -- as I was leaving the meeting, as I left the house, at the
2 end of that road, I saw a white vehicle, and I asked the person escorting
3 me to take me there so that I could speak to European monitors. He said
4 that he had to get an approval for that, and after he asked somebody, I
5 assume that he had asked General -- Colonel Mrksic because this is where
6 he took me, he came back saying that that wasn't necessary, that he would
7 take me back to the hospital, and that the monitors would arrive as soon
8 as possible at the hospital.
9 Q. You say that he had asked permission from someone, you assumed it
10 was Colonel Mrksic. What led to that assumption? Was there anything that
11 he did or said?
12 A. He came back from the vehicle, went into the building and then
13 came back again. I thought that he had probably gone back to ask the
14 colonel but I don't know. I remained in the vehicle waiting for him
16 Q. In any event, were you able to speak to the monitors, as they
17 appeared to be?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Why not?
20 A. Because he said that he had to take me back to the hospital.
21 Later, while I was at the hospital, none of the monitors showed up. The
22 first time I talked to the monitors was when I was in the prison in
23 Sremska Mitrovica.
24 Q. At what time approximately did you arrive back at the Vukovar
1 A. At around 4.00 in the afternoon.
2 Q. And what was the situation like at the hospital when you returned?
3 A. Upon return, we came across a lot of people walking in the streets
4 in columns. Among them I recognised my mother. I asked the officer who
5 drove me to stop. I said that that was my mother there. So my mother
6 came into the car and she said that they were taking them to Velepromet.
7 I asked her where my parents in law were and she said that they had been
8 taken out earlier and then once we arrived at the hospital, I saw a lot of
9 soldiers around the hospital and reservists, among whom I recognised one
10 of our former employees, who worked at the hospital before the war. I
11 asked the man who drove me to get my parents in law from Velepromet and
12 bring them to the hospital so that we could stay all together there. And
13 then he recognised -- then he suggested that Bogdan Kuzmic, the man I
14 recognised among the reservists, should go and get them. However, he did
15 not do that within the following hour, and then I repeated my request,
16 wrote down the names of my father- and mother-in-law on a piece of paper,
17 and then one of the people escorting me brought them to the hospital.
18 Q. Thank you very much. When you refer to soldiers, what soldiers
19 are we talking about? Are we talking about Croatian soldiers, JNA, TO?
20 Are you able to distinguish or can you tell the Court exactly what those
21 soldiers were doing?
22 A. I'm referring to the soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army. The
23 reservists and some volunteers who wore various kinds of uniform, then the
24 military police of the Yugoslav army, which supposedly secured the
25 entrance into the hospital. That was according to the officer who
1 accompanied me. However, when I returned in the afternoon, I saw the
2 soldiers and reservists going through the hospital. The hospital was
3 overflowing with people, the wounded, patients, civilians, who had arrived
4 in the previous two days.
5 Q. When you use the phrase "soldiers were going through the
6 hospital," what sort of things were they doing when they were going
7 through the hospital?
8 A. I don't know. To tell you the truth, I don't know who was milling
9 through the hospital. I know that I heard that Bogdan Kuzmic who used to
10 work there and who was now in the capacity of a reservist was going
11 through the hospital appearing to look for people and asking for names.
12 People were afraid because it seemed that he was on the side of those who
13 were killing us. I saw Jovic, Sasa, talking to some soldiers. I asked
14 him to come to my office and then I told him that he should remain in the
15 room where he had been previously, awaiting the International Red Cross
16 together with us, and he said that he would do that. Then I was told that
17 some volunteers wanted to enter the hospital. I came out and I saw some
18 people wearing camouflage uniforms and helmets with some white ribbons,
19 with cockades on their helmets entering the hospital alongside the
20 Yugoslav People's Army soldiers who were supposedly guarding the entrance.
21 I told them that they were not allowed inside the hospital. They were
22 aggressive. They were angry with me. Dr. Ivankovic came out from the
23 surgical clinic and he told them that they should stop with it, that they
24 should calm down, and then he said to me, "Vesna, you should not say
25 anything else. Just go back to your room and sit there."
1 Q. Thank you. Now, you told us that names were being asked for. Was
2 there anything else that was occurring apart from names that caused you
3 concern at that time?
4 A. Everybody was afraid. Mrs. Zeljka Zgonjanin came to tell me that
5 on the floor above us, they were starting to separate the men from women
6 and children. I went out to see what was going on and I could see through
7 the main door that they were taking men outside and putting them on the
8 trucks and driving them away. That was the first time I met
9 Major Sljivancanin. I asked him why they were separating the men, and
10 where they were taking them when we were actually all awaiting evacuation
11 and expecting the first evacuation of the wounded. He was quite arrogant
12 and he told me that I should not meddle in the affairs which were no
13 concern of mine.
14 Q. I want to deal with this piece of evidence in perhaps a little
15 more detail. You say that you saw men being taken outside and placed in
16 trucks. Who was actually taking the men outside?
17 A. Soldiers were, and putting them on lorries.
18 Q. And the men were being taken from where?
19 A. From the main building of the hospital, where they had assembled
20 from all the surrounding shelters all over the town, alongside with women
21 and children, to await evacuation there.
22 Q. When you use the word "men" it can mean many things. It can mean
23 armed soldiers, it can mean doctors in white coats. It can mean any sort
24 of description. Was there anything that made you --
25 A. To the extent that I was able to see, all of them were civilians
1 wearing civilian clothes. Men from the ground floor and first floor were
2 leaving the building and getting on to those lorries.
3 Q. Did you express any direct concern to Sljivancanin himself about
4 these men being taken away with no monitors being present?
5 A. Of course I did, as I've said before. That's why I came outside
6 to request protection. I asked where they were taking them but he was
7 quite arrogant. He said I had no business being there asking these things
8 and I should go back to my office.
9 Q. Yes, but the question is really quite specific. Did you actually
10 mention to him that there was an agreement, an evacuation agreement, where
11 monitors were supposed to be present?
12 A. Yes, yes. I told him that we were expecting the International Red
13 Cross and European monitors.
14 Q. And his reply about the European monitors coming was what?
15 A. He said they would be there eventually, that I should just go back
16 to my office and wait there.
17 Q. What time was that about, when you spoke to Sljivancanin?
18 A. About 5.00 or 6.00 p.m.
19 Q. And how many trucks did you see come or how many civilian, male
20 civilians, did you see taken away?
21 A. I was only outside for a brief while. I saw the truck outside the
22 entrance and I saw people getting on to it but I can't tell you exactly
23 how many trucks there were or how many people for that matter.
24 Q. Thank you very much. That was the first time that you met
25 Major Sljivancanin. Did you meet him again that day or evening?
1 A. I met him again that evening. He entered my office and said, "You
2 have been waiting for the Red Cross for so long. Well, they are here
3 now." He was accompanied by two Red Cross representatives, one of them I
4 recognised later, Nicholas Borsinger. There was another rather small man
5 who introduced himself as a doctor, and there was an interpreter present
7 Q. Did you speak to Nicholas Borsinger about what had occurred prior
8 to his arrival?
9 A. At last someone was there, more specifically the International Red
10 Cross. I had been convinced that they would be the ones conducting our
11 evacuation in much the same way as the previous evacuation had been
12 organised by the Medecins Sans Frontieres one month before. I told them
13 that we had spent two days waiting for them and that the situation in the
14 hospital was very difficult. I told them we were quite disappointed to
15 see them arrive this late. He said that they brought with them some help,
16 some medical equipment and medicine, that perhaps we could use this to
17 alleviate the situation. I told them that it was already too late, that
18 perhaps this might prove useful but that the main thing was for an
19 evacuation to take place.
20 Q. What about the wounded? How were you going to deal with the
21 wounded with Nicholas Borsinger? How was he to ascertain who was --
22 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic?
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this is a leading question.
25 The witness said exactly what she had done. She talked to Borsinger and
1 now the Prosecutor is suggesting that they were talking about the wounded.
2 I think this is putting a subject to the witness. She was quite clear
3 about what their conversation had been about. The first question by the
4 Prosecutor should have been, Did you in fact talk about anything else, and
5 then a question like this might have followed.
6 MR. MOORE: In my submission I'm perfectly entitled to ask a
7 witness whether there were any specific topics mentioned.
8 JUDGE PARKER: You certainly are, Mr. Moore. The correct position
9 lies between your position and that of Mr. Lukic, and we won't waste time
10 negotiating it. You may certainly turn the witness's attention to a new
11 topic, but there seems to be concern about this conversation and this area
12 so you should not lead and you should not get into the position of
13 suggesting what may have been the conversation, and your questions went
14 too far in that direction.
15 MR. MOORE:
16 Q. Can you remember any other topic that was discussed?
17 A. We talked about the difficult situation in the hospital. I was
18 adamant that we should go to the hospital so that he could see for himself
19 what the situation was, or, rather, how desperate. I must say I was
20 disappointed. My impression was that Mr. Borsinger was scared of all that
21 he could see around him of the situation that he ended up in. I was quite
22 disappointed. This was different from what we had all expected from the
23 International Red Cross and the international community as a whole.
24 Major Sljivancanin, who was with him, asked if we had made any evacuation
25 lists. I said that we had drawn up lists of people who were wounded with
1 their specific diagnoses. I gave him one bundle of those lists. He was
2 adamant that I should hand over all the lists that I had or rather all the
3 copies. I asked, "Why? Aren't we supposed to keep some of the copies?"
4 But he insisted that he should have all of the copies in order to be able
5 to compare. I yielded and gave him all the copies. He asked me if these
6 were all the people to be evacuated and I told him these were all the
7 wounded people in the hospital but that there were names that weren't
8 included on the list, such as nurses and doctors, family members of those
9 wounded, and hospital staff.
10 At this point I expected that the International Red Cross people
11 would remain with us throughout the evacuation. I expected that the
12 wounded would be categorised, classified, according to the seriousness of
13 their injuries and according to when they should be evacuated and where
14 to. Mr. Borsinger then told me that they were unable to stay, that they
15 were supposed to drive back to Belgrade. He said they would return the
16 following morning at 8.00. I was shocked by this. I couldn't believe my
17 ears. I said, "Why? Why don't you stay with us until the evacuation is
18 completed?" He said that there was still nothing he could do about this
19 evacuation. This was an additional surprise and shock. I was expecting
20 the International Red Cross to organise the evacuation itself pursuant to
21 the agreement that had been signed, but he said he had no power over this,
22 that he had no power whatsoever over how exactly the JNA would be
23 organising this evacuation. I asked him to stay with us to witness the
24 evacuation, even if he was himself in no position to actually organise
25 one. He said he would be back the next morning at 8.00 and off they went.
1 Q. When Mr. Borsinger informed you that he would be returning the
2 next day, namely the 20th, at 8.00 in the morning, did he say that in the
3 presence of Major Sljivancanin?
4 A. They were in my office, all of them, Major Sljivancanin and he.
5 There was this doctor who said that he was from Switzerland. He stayed
6 for a brief while and then left.
7 Q. Thank you. Presumably, then, Mr. Nicholas Borsinger left; is that
9 A. Yes. They all left.
10 Q. Now, you've told us about giving lists to Major Sljivancanin. Did
11 you actually give Borsinger a list as well?
12 A. I gave first copy to Borsinger and the remaining copies to
14 Q. And the people who were on that list, can we just in general terms
15 try and assess how many people were on the list that you gave?
16 A. The list contained about 400 people.
17 Q. And the 400 people, were they subdivided in any way?
18 A. Yes. Those seriously injured, who required an ambulance to be
19 transported, there were about 180 of those. The remaining patients were
20 able to move or half mobile, as it were, and could leave on buses.
21 Q. You've told us that Borsinger and Sljivancanin and the others all
22 left. Did you remain in the hospital that night?
23 A. No. Not that night. Later on, Sljivancanin returned on his own
24 and asked me to track down Dr. Antic. He wanted to speak to her. She
25 left to talk to him.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. I was --
3 Q. That clearly relates to in the hospital, but did you leave the
4 hospital was the question? Or the question actually was, did you remain
5 in the hospital that night?
6 A. That's what I was saying. I was picked up by an officer, a
7 captain, who was there with Sljivancanin. He took me away. He said he
8 had been told to take me back to Negoslavci, which is what he did, and
9 that's where I spent the night, between the 19th and the 20th.
10 Q. Can we deal, please, with Negoslavci? When you were going there,
11 who did you think you were going to see? Or the reason that you were
12 going there?
13 A. On my way there, the thought occurred to me that I might meet
14 Colonel Mrksic there because I had met him before in the same building.
15 However, when I arrived, I didn't see Colonel Mrksic. Major Sljivancanin
16 was there and another man was standing next to him. I think this other
17 man was a captain because that's how they referred to him later on.
18 Q. I'd like to deal, please, with this meeting with Sljivancanin and
19 the gentleman whom you believed was a captain. Where did you actually
20 meet Sljivancanin and the captain?
21 A. In Negoslavci, the same building where I had previously met
22 Colonel Mrksic on the same day.
23 Q. Now, was it in a different office, a different part? Can you be
24 more precise?
25 A. The same office, the same room, as far as I know, where I had
1 previously met Colonel Mrksic.
2 Q. And was Sljivancanin standing or not?
3 A. They were both seated at a table. I sat down opposite
5 Q. And did you have a discussion with Sljivancanin at this table?
6 A. Yes. Or, rather, he started questioning me. He questioned me
7 about the whereabouts of the Croatian soldiers, about the whereabouts of
8 Jastreb. Jastreb was the nickname of Vukovar's defence commander. I told
9 him I didn't know. The last time I had been with him was days before. He
10 was quite gruff and quite strict. He said how was it possible I had no
11 idea who had been killing his lads and his soldiers?
12 I said I simply didn't know who had been killing them and likewise
13 I had no idea why he, Sljivancanin, had brought them there in the first
14 place, in order to destroy Vukovar. The other man seated next to him said
15 I should watch my mouth because they had other methods to -- they knew for
16 a fact that I had to know all these things because they had been listening
17 in to all my conversations, phone conversations, with Zagreb. I said I
18 had no idea what they wanted me to tell them, that there was no way I
19 could help them about Jastreb's or the soldiers' whereabouts. I said that
20 we, the hospital staff, had been treating everyone alike, Croatian
21 soldiers, JNA soldiers, Serb soldiers, civilians. Sljivancanin then
22 started taunting me, asking me how much I believed Tudjman was prepared to
23 pay in order to have me released, whether I would be my same humanitarian
24 self in one of their other hospitals at Petrova Gora. I felt miserable
25 and I was no longer willing to engage in this conversation.
1 Q. How long did that conversation last?
2 A. I can't really say but I think about half an hour.
3 Q. Did you remain at Negoslavci that evening or were you taken back
4 to Vukovar?
5 A. He called one of the soldiers and told him to take me somewhere to
6 spend the night. I requested that I be driven back to the hospital. He
7 said there was no way he could allow that because there, there were
8 shoot-outs so they sent me to a building which they were using as some
9 sort of war hospital. In passing, I saw some mattresses on which soldiers
10 were lying. They took me through a long hall which was used as a
11 dormitory, to another smaller one where I sat down on a bed and spent the
12 night there. At 6.00 sharp the following morning, another soldier came
13 along to take me away. He drove me in a jeep and Marin Vidic was already
14 in the vehicle when I got in. So he drove both of us back to the
16 Q. Can I just deal, please, with when you return to the hospital on
17 the morning? You said that at 6.00 sharp you left Negoslavci. How long
18 did it take you to get back to the Vukovar Hospital, approximately?
19 A. About half an hour.
20 Q. And when you got back to the hospital, where did you go?
21 A. To my office, which we referred to at the time as the Crisis
23 Q. And when you were in your office, did you remain in your office?
24 A. I remained in my office. I was guarded by a soldier who was
25 carrying a rifle. Sljivancanin said that I should convene a staff meeting
1 of the hospital at 7.00 sharp in a large conference room big enough to
2 hold all of the hospital's personnel.
3 Q. Doctor, just before we go on to that, you said that you were
4 detained by a soldier in your office. Did he say anything to you at that
5 time while you were in your office sitting with him? Did he explain why
6 he was there?
7 A. He said he had been told to be in the room. The phones kept
8 ringing but he would not allow me to pick up the phone. At first he
9 answered the calls but then after some time he stopped answering the
11 Q. Did you speak to him about answering the telephone or using the
13 A. Yes. I inquired why he was refusing to allow me to answer the
14 phone. There had been calls from Zagreb from the health ministry, from
15 the government, from all over. I asked him to allow me to answer the
16 phone, to convey the situation to whoever was on the other end, and he
17 said that he had been given orders to prevent me from answering the phone.
18 Q. Now, can we move on, please, Major Sljivancanin? You have told us
19 that he came and told you to convene a meeting at 7.00. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes. He said that we should assemble all of our medical staff in
21 a large room that was big enough to hold a meeting with everybody there.
22 I asked nurse Biba and my other associates to inform all the doctors and
23 all the chief nurses to come for a meeting to this room where plaster
24 casts can be made in peace time, that being the largest room in the entire
1 Q. This is a meeting at 7.00. You've already told us that the
2 previous evening there had been a discussion in the presence of
3 Sljivancanin where the evacuation was to be at 8.00. Did you mention to
4 Sljivancanin that the monitors would be coming that day or not?
5 A. When do you mean? When did I mention that?
6 Q. I'm asking if you did.
7 A. That day, you mean? On Wednesday?
8 Q. The 20th. You've told us you got back on the 20th. You've told
9 us that you were in the morning --
10 A. No, I didn't. I just bade my time. I was hoping that as
11 Borsinger had announced, they would be there at 8.00.
12 Q. In relation to the actual meeting itself, how long did it take to
13 gather all the parties?
14 A. I think between 15 and 20 minutes, then everyone was there. The
15 room was nearly full. In addition to Sljivancanin, there were doctors
16 there wearing JNA uniforms, about five or six of them, I think.
17 Sljivancanin gave a speech, explaining to everyone that the JNA had just
18 successfully liberated Vukovar and that all the hospitals would now be
19 within the jurisdiction of the military hospital in Belgrade. He said
20 that all the personnel should be classified according to whether they
21 wanted to leave and be evacuated or stay and work at the hospital. He
22 said that I was no longer in charge, that I was no longer manager, but
23 that the military medical academy was now taking over the hospital. That
24 soldier then walked me back to my office. I waited for the International
25 Red Cross to come. As I was waiting, my mother entered my room to see if
1 I was there, if everything was okay. She told me that my father-in-law
2 had left the hospital. I asked where did he go? And she said that a
3 soldier had passed by saying that all those who were able to walk should
4 leave. He grabbed the opportunity because he had great pains in his leg
5 and he had trouble just sitting where he was.
6 Q. Doctor, I just want to deal with the meeting itself. You've told
7 us that all the medical staff were there. Did you see -- perhaps you
8 could be kind enough to -- when you were at the meeting, did you see any
9 exchange between JNA doctors and some of what I will call the Vukovar
10 doctor hospitals -- hospital doctors?
11 A. I saw that some people recognised each other. One of my
12 colleagues recognised some of the doctors, and he went to greet him but
13 the other wouldn't talk to him. I personally didn't recognise any of the
14 doctors. I didn't know who they were. Later on, I heard that one of them
15 went by the last name of Ivezic. I also heard some other names but I
16 didn't know these people before.
17 Q. As far as you're aware, did any of the doctors who worked in the
18 hospital have children, sons or daughters, who had visited Vukovar or had
19 come to Vukovar on the 18th, 19th, as part of the JNA contingent?
20 A. I remember that the son of Dr. Ivankovic came to the hospital with
21 the volunteers who were calling themselves White Eagles. I remember that.
22 Q. And what about Dr. Ivankovic? Did he stay or leave?
23 A. He immediately declared that he would stay.
24 Q. Was there any discussion about the way the Vukovar Hospital had
25 been used throughout the struggle prior to the surrender of Vukovar?
1 A. You mean there at the meeting?
2 Q. There at the meeting or just after the meeting.
3 A. As far as I know, no. I have no information to that effect.
4 Later on, I gave a statement in the prison in Sremska Mitrovica about
5 that, as well as in the barracks in Vukovar, but in the hospital itself,
6 no, I don't know.
7 Q. Now, how long did you remain at the hospital that day?
8 A. I can't recall the exact amount of time, but perhaps after an
9 hour, this same officer who had taken me to Negoslavci came, saying that
10 he had orders to take Marin Vidic and me to the meeting with the
11 International Red Cross.
12 Q. And where did they say there was going to be the meeting with the
13 International Red Cross?
14 A. They didn't say anything. He simply said he would take us to the
16 Q. Did you mention anything to him about that the International Red
17 Cross were coming at 8.00 that morning and it would not be necessary?
18 A. No. He said that he was issued orders to take us to the meeting
19 with the International Red Cross.
20 Q. So when -- where were you taken, then, please?
21 A. They took us to the barracks of the Yugoslav People's Army in
22 Sajmiste. We went to a room where there was a young man in the military
23 police uniform who told us we should just sit there and that woe come and
24 fetch us in half an hour.
25 Q. And did anybody come to collect you from that room at the JNA
2 A. Nobody came until the evening hours. A soldier came, bringing in
3 a sausage and some bread. That was at around three in the afternoon.
4 Then once again, the same person who had brought us there walked into the
5 room in the evening, saying that there had been some changes, that the
6 evacuation had been carried out, and that we had to stay -- spend the
7 night in the barracks.
8 Q. Bearing in mind that you'd been told you were going to a meeting
9 with the Red Cross apparently that morning, clearly didn't do so, and then
10 were told that there was a change, did you say anything to that officer
11 about those changes?
12 A. I didn't say anything to the officer because he was simply issued
13 orders to drive us there. I expected that somebody in charge would come,
14 such as Sljivancanin or Mrksic. However, none of them came. They came to
15 fetch me at 10 in the evening. Marin had to stay on there. They didn't
16 take him out. They only took me to give the statement in the barracks in
17 a room where there were a number of officers, a woman wearing a uniform.
18 There were cameramen. They recorded this. They asked me to give a
19 statement about the functioning of the hospital and my own role during the
21 Q. Dr. Bosanac, just before you proceed --
22 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I don't know when the Court is
23 considering taking a break. I'll explain why so there is no problem about
24 it. I can proceed quite easily. If one looks at the hard copy that the
25 Court has, one can see on the index number 6. The doctor does not know to
1 what I am referring at this time but the Defence do. This is a document
2 that was created by Dr. Bosanac last week when I went to Vukovar. It has
3 not been -- it has been shown to the Defence, as soon it was possible to
4 do so, but has not been admitted in as an exhibit in a formal way. I felt
5 it was only fair that the Defence should see this prior to Dr. Bosanac
6 giving evidence. I was actually going to deal with it but I wanted to see
7 if there were any objections to that course.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Do we understand that you suggest an adjournment
9 now so that you can have discussions with the Defence?
10 MR. MOORE: Well, the Defence know that I clearly was intending to
11 use it at some time. We had referred to perhaps Dr. Bosanac coming back
12 on another occasion to deal with other matters. I can deal with it now or
13 I can deal with it later. I'm quite relaxed about that.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Is the answer yes?
15 MR. MOORE: It could be yes or it could be no. I don't really
16 mind one way or the other --
17 JUDGE PARKER: No. Is the answer that you were planning to
18 discuss with the Defence during the break what course should be taken
19 about this matter at this stage?
20 MR. MOORE: Well, I'm wondering if the Defence want to make any
21 objection now because if they do, I'm quite happy to argue it now. It's
22 not something that they have been caught unawares, as it were.
23 JUDGE PARKER: I see Mr. Lukic, you're volunteering.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before the witness
25 entered the courtroom, we were informed by the Prosecutor that he had been
1 in Vukovar, or rather that he had talked to Mrs. Bosanac and that she had
2 given him some documents which had not previously been disclosed to us and
3 that he would perhaps put a question based on those documents. At the
4 time he didn't told us that this would involve this document marked as
5 annex 6 in this set of documents. He simply said that this involved some
6 documentation from the hospital. This is what we discussed. We said that
7 in principle, the position of the Defence would be such that they do not
8 want to cross-examine a witness before familiarising themselves in detail
9 with a document and obtain instructions from their clients. This is the
10 first time that my colleagues and I hear that it pertains to this
11 particular document. I don't know what this entails. As far as I can
12 see, this is a list of victims and I don't know if this pertains to this
13 document, that this is what he talked about with Mrs. Bosanac. If that
14 was the case we would ask the Prosecutor that if he does put any questions
15 to the witness relating to that, that we be given extra time in order to
16 analyse this. So we don't know to what document this pertains. Our
17 initial belief was that this involved some medical documentation and this
18 is why we are somewhat taken by surprise now.
19 MR. MOORE: I can deal with the matter quite easily. I can leave
20 this topic to another occasion because they come into two different
21 categories. I needn't go into it in open court. So I can deal with this
22 comment on a later occasion. I'm quite happy to do that.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore. I think that will be the
24 most practical at the moment but could the Chamber further ask of you that
25 you make clear to the members of the Defence what it is that you propose
1 about this document and what its nature and origin is, because that seems
2 to be unknown and obscure at the moment. And with that information, it
3 may be that the Defence will be in a position to cross-examine the witness
4 on the topic during the present session of evidence. I mean by that while
5 the witness is here at this moment. What the Chamber is concerned about
6 is to avoid, if possible, the need for Dr. Bosanac to return at some later
7 time. That would be an unfortunate occurrence if it proved to be
8 necessary. So if that can be avoided, we would like that to happen.
9 MR. MOORE: To assist the Court, this document quite simply is at
10 the back of the indictment. It is the name of alleged victims.
11 Dr. Bosanac, as indeed my learned friends, looked at this document and was
12 asked if she would be able to recognise the names of any of the
13 individuals and their functions, whether they were civilian, military.
14 Indeed she devised her own category. So this document itself comes from
15 the indictment. It was disclosed to my learned friends. And the
16 categories, S, C, are her categories.
17 JUDGE PARKER: I see. So this is not a new document.
18 MR. MOORE: It is a document --
19 JUDGE PARKER: All that you are proposing from it is the doctor,
20 from her knowledge of the hospital staff and patients and so forth, to
21 have her identify which patients fell into different possible categories?
22 MR. MOORE: Correct.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Of the list of names that are in the indictment?
24 MR. MOORE: Correct. The second category of documents, again, my
25 learned friends have not seen that, is basically the patient lists through
1 1991, clearly targeting, let us say, from June onwards, the names of
2 patients, the nature of the injury, where they were injured, the
3 treatment, and what happened to them, whether they were male, whether they
4 were female. It's something that had not been achievable before we had
5 requested on an RFA for the actual documents so that we could compile our
6 own list. That was not -- we got no reply in relation to that from the
7 authorities. By pure chance I managed to find that there were -- there
8 was a document that was in existence in computer form, which gave those
9 details. We now have those details, but that has only recently arrived.
10 It came with Dr. Bosanac. And I only obtained that myself on Monday. So
11 that has gone to the evidence unit to be collated and has not as yet
12 received an ERN number and has not as yet been looked at with any great
14 So they break into two categories. There document is from the
15 back of the indictment. It relates to the individuals. The other relates
16 to the nature of injuries, the number of people, the extent of injury,
17 whether it be proportionate or disproportionate, which goes, shall I say,
18 to a broader issue, what might be considered the widespread and systematic
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
21 [Trial chamber confers]
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic?
23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
24 I would like to add something that perhaps could be useful. The
25 Defence does not quite understand whether the list we received from our
1 learned friend represents notes of Mrs. Bosanac based on the computer
2 documentation mentioned by the Prosecutor or whether this is a reflection
3 of her memories, as an aide-memoire, in which case it is not a problem.
4 However, if this was produced on the basis of documentation that has not
5 been processed yet, then in that case, the Defence should be given extra
6 time to prepare for cross-examination and the opportunity to see the
7 documentation used in order to produce this.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.
9 Mr. Moore?
10 MR. MOORE: Yes, I can help with regard to it. The list that is
11 in the -- from the back of the indictment was, as far as I'm aware,
12 created from her memory. People that she thought she knew and their
13 specific occupations. In relation to what I will call the computer
14 records, as far as I'm aware, she did not refer to that when she was
15 compiling the list. However, I can clarify it when she is on oath. But
16 that is my understanding.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.
18 The Chamber's view is that the list which you have at your tab 6,
19 which is from the indictment and on which the witness has made, as you
20 understand it from her memory and knowledge, annotations, can be dealt
21 with in the course of her evidence at this moment. It is not really
22 practical for the Chamber to make any ruling in respect of this further
23 information based upon newly acquired computer record until it is
24 available to the Defence and to the Chamber. It is of concern that if you
25 had the document on Monday, we still don't have it. If you would take
1 that firmly on board, Mr. Moore. But that being the case, we would hope
2 that it will be able to be distributed very quickly. That will then
3 enable the Defence to determine whether they need an opportunity to
4 prepare for some questioning on the basis of that document, and it would
5 enable the Chamber to determine whether that request by the Defence was
6 reasonable. We can't do that at the moment, as neither the Defence nor
7 the Chamber has any knowledge.
8 So with respect to the document at tab 6, you may proceed at the
9 moment, and we await the entirely new documents at the earliest
10 opportunity. That I think brings us to a convenient time to adjourn.
11 Mr. Moore, you have something further?
12 MR. MOORE: Yes, it's just one small problem so the Court thinks
13 that we are not being dilatory. The document we have has names and then
14 of course diagnoses. The problem that we have is quite simply this: They
15 are hospital records. The names of the individuals usually can only be
16 released with the permission of the patient. In addition to that, the
17 occupation of the person and the address of the person is on that list as
18 well. Now, it is quite clear that some of those individuals who were on
19 the hospital records were what I will call Croatian defenders or fighters,
20 and there is a clear reluctance by individuals for their names to be
21 disclosed to the Defence. So that is why that that matter has not been
22 dealt with in the way that one normally would do. I can certainly
23 disclose the document immediately with regard to the names being excluded
24 or any identifiable or identifying features. But the problem is, and I
25 cannot give a definitive answer on that, as whether in actual fact any
1 individual who is nominated in a document, where it may strike at their
2 safety, whether in fact one is entitled to disclose such material.
3 JUDGE PARKER: What you are saying, Mr. Moore, suggests to me at
4 this moment at least, I've not had a chance to discuss with my other
5 members of the Chamber, that you may find yourself unable to make any use
6 of this further document at all. Or at least, you might only make
7 reference to part of it after there has been some intensive deliberation
8 of issues involving confidentiality, and fairness of the trial.
9 MR. MOORE: Yes.
10 JUDGE PARKER: So unless and until we hear more of it, from the
11 Chamber's point of view it will regard it as not a document in the trial.
12 MR. MOORE: Very well.
13 JUDGE PARKER: You will have to take formal measures to bring it
14 within the trial process and if there are issues of the nature that you
15 indicate, clearly they will have to be formally dealt with.
16 MR. MOORE: Yes. Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 10 minutes to the hour of 11.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.
21 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
22 Your Honour, would the E-Court throw up the following document
23 number 04637997 -- perhaps "produce" is more attractive than "throw up".
24 And I'd like to refer to the following pages, they are 998, 999, 000, 001,
25 and 002. I, of course, can do it by way of the hard copy method if there
1 is any electronic problem.
2 Thank you very much.
3 Q. Dr. Bosanac, you had the dubious pleasure of my company last week
4 when I saw you in relation to this case and your evidence. Do you
5 remember being shown this document by the investigator and being asked if
6 you would be able to identify any of the individuals or actually nominate
7 whether -- what they were doing at the hospital? Do you remember that
8 particular conversation?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. If we just deal with page 998, please, and if it is possible to
11 highlight the index at the top, which is handwritten. Thank you very
12 much. Doctor, is it correct to say that that is your handwriting?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what exactly does this represent, please?
15 A. I attempted to mark the names, indicating which people I knew and
16 what was the position, what was the role of these people, whether they
17 were medical staff, non-professional staff, whether they were civilians or
18 Croatian soldiers. And what you see in the heading is the key, the
19 legend, where I used the asterisk to mark the hospital workers, then I
20 used the cross to mark the non-professional staff at the hospital. "S" is
21 the symbol I used for wounded soldiers, and then the next category,
22 political enemies or opponents, was the most difficult category because I
23 wasn't quite sure as to who played which role. And then I used letter "C"
24 to denote civilians.
25 We can go name by name and I can tell you what I know about some
1 people. I need to mention once again that I don't know all the people.
2 However --
3 Q. Doctor, before you do that, I just want to deal with the legend in
4 a little more detail. So if we start at the very top, there is a star and
5 then what seems to be "WH." That is the workers in the hospital; is that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Coming down we have got a cross, perhaps it's -- my copy is rather
9 bad, it seems to be "HW." And then like an "H" again. Is that right?
10 A. Yes. Help workers at the hospital.
11 Q. So we've got help workers and then we've got what I call ditto.
12 So help workers in the hospital, including civilians and soldiers, is that
13 what you've written down?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The "VS" is soldiers?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then a slightly unusual "W," in my language, I suppose, "P,"
18 then a cross?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Political opponents. And then "C" for civilians.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now it's not my aim to go through all these individuals. I'm sure
23 you can be asked lots of questions about it. But when it came to putting
24 the marks here, are you absolutely certain in relation to all your marks
25 or are -- how exactly, what was the process that you adopted?
1 A. I'm certain about the ones that I did mark. I placed question
2 marks wherever I was not certain.
3 Q. Well, I am not going to go through this list. It's
4 self-explanatory, I would submit. Would you very quickly like to go
5 through one more time to confirm the marks that you have had -- or the
6 marks that you have made? I don't know if there is a translation problem.
7 Perhaps the question can be asked again.
8 Does the doctor require any more time to look at this list?
9 A. No. I do not require any more time, but I would like to say that
10 at the bottom of this table, if I may, it says there is a cross and there
11 is a missing person whose remains have not been identified. But that's
12 not consistent with the list. Most of the persons in this list have been
13 identified, their bodies, that is, from the mass grave at Ovcara. So this
14 must be an old list or, rather, an old document.
15 Q. When it came to actually compiling or shall I say ticking the
16 names and assessing who was what, did you have any help when you marked
17 out this category, whether they be soldiers, political opponents, help
18 workers, et cetera, or did you do it by yourself?
19 A. By myself.
20 Q. Doctor, I have no further questions for you on this matter. Thank
21 you very much.
22 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I wonder --
23 JUDGE PARKER: Are you planning to tender that?
24 MR. MOORE: That's -- there was another document as well. There
25 is the peace agreement I think was not tendered as an exhibit and also
1 this document. So --
2 JUDGE PARKER: You have this document at the moment. Are you
3 tendering this?
4 MR. MOORE: I am tendering both for exhibits.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Separately, though?
6 MR. MOORE: Of course.
7 JUDGE PARKER: This document, which is the marked schedule or
8 annex to the indictment -- Mr. Vasic?
9 THE REGISTRAR: This will be exhibit number 30 --
10 JUDGE PARKER: If you would pause a moment, please.
11 Mr. Vasic, sorry.
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. In view of
13 the fact that my colleague proposed these two documents separately, I rose
14 on behalf of all three Defence teams to give our position on the agreement
15 that we spoke about. I assume that it is the agreement that we discussed.
16 All of us Defence teams have certain reserves about this document. This
17 is one of the few -- very few documents the authenticity of which the
18 Defence teams are likely to be challenging. We are facing a situation
19 where we have to check the facts in relation to this document.
20 Therefore, the Defence would like to have this document marked for
21 identification in case we find certain facts that are inconsistent, we
22 would then be challenging the authenticity of this document.
23 This is an agreement which the Prosecutor claims was signed in
24 Zagreb, the so-called evacuation agreement. Based on what the Prosecutor
25 has disclosed to the Defence, it appears that five parties were involved
1 in this. The agreement bears three signatures. At the bottom of the
2 agreement itself, where we find the signatures of the JNA representative,
3 the words "JNA" were added by hand, in our submission. That is easily
5 As for the signatories of this agreement, at this point in time
6 the Defence would like to say we have serious doubts that it was signed
7 the way my colleague from the Prosecution said it was. The Defence is
8 making an effort to check these facts and will duly be informing both the
9 Trial Chamber and our learned friends from the OTP of the result of our
10 inquiries. Namely, whether we intend to challenge the authenticity of
11 this document or whether we intend to withdraw any doubts that we may have
12 at this time.
13 Therefore, the Defence moves that this document be marked for
14 identification until such time as we have had an opportunity to check the
15 necessary facts in relation to how this agreement was signed.
16 As for the other proposed document, the Defence has no objections.
17 The list that the witness, Mrs. Bosanac marked based on her recollection
18 of events, as she said herself. Thank you.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, we will deal first with the list taken
20 from the annex to the indictment. That will be received as an exhibit.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 39, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
23 Do you have any submission about the proposal that the agreement
24 which you have been referring to should now be marked for identification
25 rather than exhibited?
1 MR. MOORE: No. We accept that the Defence are entitled to check
2 the authenticity and would make no objection at this stage.
3 JUDGE PARKER: The agreement document, which has been referred to
4 in the course of evidence, will be now marked for identification. The
5 number of that?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Would be number 40, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE PARKER: You've got the document now electronically?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 Yes, Mr. Moore, anything further?
11 MR. MOORE: No, thank you very much.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 Doctor, Defence counsel will now, I expect, want to ask you some
14 questions. I turn first to Mr. Vasic.
15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will be the
16 first to cross-examine the witness on behalf of the Defence.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:
18 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Bosanac.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. I wish to introduce myself first of all, I'm Miroslav Vasic, first
21 of all, appearing on behalf of Mile Mrksic. We speak the same language.
22 Therefore I would like to ask you to please make a short break after my
23 questions so that the interpreters can accurately interpret the
24 proceedings, in order to allow everybody else in the courtroom to follow
25 our exchange.
1 Yesterday, when answering a question by my learned friend, you
2 said you became manager of the medical centre in Vukovar on the 25th of
3 July 1991. Were you appointed after the previous manager, a Serb, had
4 resigned facing pressure from the Croatian health ministry?
5 A. The previous manager, Dr. Rade Popovic, a neuropsychiatrist,
6 resigned. He was from Montenegro, as a matter of fact. He resigned. I'm
7 not sure about the reasons why he did so, but he resigned. I was a member
8 of the employees' council and I was appointed acting director by vote.
9 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs. Bosanac. Do you know whether in May
10 1991 a new manager was appointed to Radio Vukovar, a Croat replacing a
12 A. I don't know exactly who was the manager and when, but I remember
13 I listened to the radio and the information was that Professor Lenjak had
14 become manager of Radio Vukovar.
15 Q. While listening to the radio, did you perhaps hear that in May
16 1991, Radio Vukovar changed its name?
17 A. I'm not sure when that occurred. I know that it was now called
18 Croatian Radio Vukovar.
19 Q. Thank you. I would like to deal now with the background of what
20 preceded the events you testified about during the examination-in-chief.
21 You're an intellectual and you must be aware of the fact that after the
22 multi-party elections in Croatia, in the Republic of Croatia in 1990 which
23 resulted in an HDZ victory, the constitution of the Republic of Croatia
24 was changed?
25 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.
1 Q. Can you perhaps tell me whether these changes in the constitution
2 changed the constitutional position of Serbs in Croatia, in the Republic
3 of Croatia?
4 A. I can't say. I did not study the constitution that closely.
5 Q. Do you know what the results of the elections were in 1990 in
6 Vukovar municipality? Who won?
7 A. I can't say exactly but I know that the local elections took place
8 in the spring of 1991. That's in fact what I believe. It was not in
9 1990, as you stated. I can't talk about the specific percentages but I
10 know that several parties entered the municipality and that Slavko
11 Dokmanovic became president of municipality, while Mr. Soldo was president
12 of the executive committee. These are things that I remember but I can't
13 give you the exact results.
14 Q. Do you remember which party Slavko Dokmanovic was a member of?
15 A. I can't be sure about this but I think it was a Communist Party,
16 just that I can't remember which one. I can't say.
17 Q. Was Ivica Racan perhaps the president of that party for all of
18 Croatia at the time?
19 A. I really don't know. I know that there was a split in the
20 Communist Party at the time, one faction being in favour of Croatia, the
21 other in favour of Yugoslavia. But I really can't remember.
22 Q. Do you know for how long Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic remained president
23 of Vukovar municipality?
24 A. Not in terms of exact dates but I know it was after the notorious
25 occurrences in Borovo Selo when 12 Croatian police officers were killed.
1 Tensions began to mount and some roadblocks had already been set up. I
2 remember watching Novi Sad television. Mr. Dokmanovic was there, whether
3 in Trpinja -- he was from Trpinja but I can't remember it was Trpinja or
4 not. He was from one of those villages and he was explaining to the
5 viewers why he was not able to go to work. I'm not sure whether it was
6 June or July. I just know what I heard. Mr. Dokmanovic was unable to go
7 to work in Vukovar and the Croatian government appointed an acting
8 president, Mr. Marin Vidic, also known as Bili.
9 Q. Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic was an ethnic Serb, wasn't he?
10 A. I think so. But I don't know. I did not know
11 Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic personally.
12 Q. What about the commissioner appointed by the Croatian government?
13 What ethnic group did he belong to?
14 A. He was a Croat. Marin Vidic. He was from Lovas.
15 Q. Do you know which party the commissioner belonged to?
16 A. No.
17 Q. If, as you said, Slavko Dokmanovic was supposed to reach Vukovar
18 through Trpinja would he have had to go through Borovo Naselje?
19 A. Yes. He could have taken a roundabout route but the one you have
20 just suggested was certainly the shortest.
21 Q. Do you know anyone named Blago Zadro?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In January 1991, was this person president of the executive
24 committee of the HDZ?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Do you know anyone named Tomislav Mercep?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. In January 1991, was he president of the municipal committee, the
4 municipal HDZ committee for Vukovar?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Was he perhaps the secretary of the secretariat for All People's
7 Defence for Vukovar municipality?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know that in July in Borovo Selo, a cleansing operation had
10 been carried out to cleanse the northern sector of Borovo Naselje. This
11 was something conducted by the HDA [as interpreted] in order to expel the
12 ethnic Serbs from that village?
13 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
14 Q. Do you know about the situation at the Vukovar police station in
16 A. I know that Mr. Stipo Pole was chief of the police station. For a
17 while, the post was held by someone I didn't know. Whether he was killed
18 in Borovo Selo or whether the change was caused by something else, I don't
19 know. But in the summer of 1991, when I became hospital manager, Stipo
20 Pole was chief of the Vukovar police station.
21 Q. Do you know that in the spring of 1991, Serb members of the
22 Vukovar police station were fired and that a large number of Croat reserve
23 police officers were brought in as replacements?
24 A. No. I'm not familiar with that.
25 Q. You mentioned the 2nd of May events in Borovo Selo. Can you tell
1 us whether, after what happened there, wounded Croatian police officers
2 were brought to the hospital?
3 A. I know that an ambulance from the Vukovar medical centre was sent
4 out. I was not part of the hospital management at the time. I'm not sure
5 who was in charge. I know that some people had been killed and that the
6 wounded had been brought in, and then taken elsewhere by helicopter. I'm
7 unable to provide any details, though. At the time, I worked at a
8 specialist medical station. I conducted medical examinations of children.
9 Q. But you were, after all, working at the hospital, weren't you. In
10 view of that fact, did you know that the ethnic makeup of those employed
11 by the hospital actually changed between May and July, at the expense of
12 Serbs? Isn't it true that ethnic Serbs were leaving the hospital?
13 A. Yes. I do know that many of them no longer came to work. They
14 left the hospital. They no longer came to work. They were probably using
15 their annual leave and whatever days off they had. I saw them on Serbian
16 television, that they were setting up a war hospital in Bobota, some of
17 them at least.
18 Q. You did not speak to any of the Serbs working in the hospital at
19 the time? You didn't speak to them about why they were leaving, whether
20 perhaps they were afraid of something?
21 A. Personally, I did not speak to any of them. I was on duty one
22 night with a nurse from Negoslavci. Her husband phoned and told her to go
23 home immediately because they were taking their children to Sid. She was
24 taken aback. She said she would not allow her children to go anywhere and
25 that she was unable to leave work. She was shocked and surprised. My
1 impression was that she was really taken aback. However, the next day she
2 did not turn up for work. In my opinion, this is something that was
3 organised. People were taking their children to Serbia. I also had some
4 patients from Borovo Selo. Their mothers had said that they would like to
5 come and visit the hospital but that they were not allowed to go. Rather,
6 they were being sent by boat across to Backa.
7 Q. After the 2nd of May, was a Crisis Staff established at the
8 hospital? And was the task of this Crisis Staff to prepare the hospital
9 for an emergency? Was, in fact, a state of emergency declared?
10 A. I can't say what happened after the 2nd of May. I can tell you
11 what happened after I was appointed manager of the Vukovar Hospital.
12 Q. Were you in fact a member of this staff at one point in time?
13 A. I was the person who set it up. I really don't know whether there
14 had been a staff before I came along.
15 Q. At the time, were there any soldiers in the barracks in Vukovar?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But there were no armed clashes at the time, right?
18 A. There were soldiers in the barracks, military vehicles drove
19 through the town and a daily basis on their way to Borovo Selo and back.
20 Armoured military vehicles were passing to and through.
21 Q. Do you know that in the spring of 1991, Serb houses were torched
22 and demolished in Vukovar and the Borba media company kiosk was in fact
24 A. I can't say exactly when I heard this but I did hear that some of
25 the pubs or bars were blown up. The rumour was that the owners themselves
1 had planted the explosive in order to collect the insurance money, but it
2 wasn't really certain who had done that. One thing I'd like to point out
3 is that the armed clashes in Vukovar started after 12 Croatian police
4 officers had been killed in Borovo Selo.
5 Q. Are you trying to say that there were -- was some combat activity
6 immediately following the 2nd of May 1991?
7 A. In your question, in one of your questions, you said during the
8 summer, when there was still no conflicts. And what I was trying to say
9 is, is that the conflict actually broke out when those policemen were
10 killed. In July, the first shells started landing on Borovo Naselje.
11 Q. Do you know the following names: Vlada Skeledzija, Branko
12 Mirijanic [phoen], Mladen Mirkic? They were from Borovo Naselje?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know that at one point in time the barracks in Vukovar was
15 placed under siege by the members of the National Guards Corps?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know that on the 3rd of September 1991, upon orders of the
18 commissioner, the water supply was cut off for the barracks as well as
19 electricity, following which there was an armed attack on the barracks?
20 A. I'm not aware of that.
21 Q. Do you know when the municipal Crisis Staff in Vukovar was
23 A. I don't know the date, but I think that was in July.
24 Q. Who were members of that Crisis Staff?
25 A. The Crisis Staff was led by the government commissioner,
1 Mr. Marin Vidic. In addition to him, there were people from civilian
2 protection, from the water works company, and so on. I know that the
3 person representing the hospital on the staff was Dr. Matos.
4 Q. Were there any military commanders or MUP commanders on the Crisis
6 A. I did not attend those meetings regularly. And I'm not sure how
7 this Crisis Staff functioned. I know I went several times, once or twice,
8 to attend the meetings. Then I saw Mr. Polet, a representative of the
9 police force, but I saw no military representatives. That was in August.
10 Q. Can you tell me whether the people you mentioned were also members
11 of the HDZ, in addition to being members of the Crisis Staff?
12 A. No. They were not. I don't know nor a fact but I don't think
13 that they were.
14 Q. Can you tell us how come that you, as hospital director, were not
15 a member of the Crisis Staff? How come that another doctor from the
16 hospital was on the staff but not you?
17 A. Well, I had to deal with various organisational issues, and to go
18 to the meetings was something that somebody else could do and come back
19 and brief us at the hospital. Therefore, Dr. Matos was designated as the
20 go between the hospital and the Crisis Staff.
21 Q. Was there also a war hospital within the Vukovar medical centre?
22 A. Well, unfortunately, in view of the situation that developed in
23 the following months, it turned into a war hospital, but it did not exist
24 as a separate unit within the Vukovar medical centre. What happened was
25 that practically the entire hospital, starting in late August until late
1 November when it was occupied, functioned as a war hospital.
2 Q. Isn't it true that Dr. Njavro Djuro was in charge of the war
4 A. He was designated by the main medical staff in Zagreb as chief of
5 war surgery because he happened to be a surgeon.
6 Q. In examination-in-chief, we saw that, according to your words, you
7 applied to all relevant highest authorities in the Republic of Croatia who
8 did nothing to change the difficult situation in which the hospital found
9 itself. Was there somebody else perhaps who was better placed than you to
10 address such requests to the authorities of the Republic of Croatia?
11 A. I don't know whether there was another person other than me. I
12 wasn't the only one who sent out faxes and asked for help. A lot of us
13 did that. Dr. Njavro, myself, Marin Vidic. Croatian Radio Vukovar kept
14 issuing calls for help.
15 Q. Dr. Matos who was a member of the Crisis Staff, did he perhaps
16 have greater power when it comes to the dealings with the authorities of
17 the Republic of Croatia?
18 A. Dr. Matos was the liaison between the hospital and the municipal
19 Crisis Staff. Therefore, I do not think that he had greater power or
20 greater authority, if this is what you prefer, to ensure that the Vukovar
21 Hospital got more help. It was absolutely impossible, in view of the
22 weapons that the JNA had brought to Vukovar. Not a bird could fly
23 through, let alone eight convoys. There with were so many planes flying
24 over and so many shells and bombs.
25 Q. Throughout the conflict, were there any helicopters that flew
1 between the rest of Croatia and Vukovar, and were there any helicopters
2 landing at the stadium near the hospital?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Didn't you propose, in one of your calls for help, that the
5 assistance for the hospital be provided in that way, because that was the
6 only viable option?
7 A. Naturally I did. I proposed all kinds of options, but there was
8 no chance for a helicopter to get there without being shot by the JNA
10 Q. Can you tell me whether you, as hospital director, appointed a
11 doctor to serve as a liaison with the National Guards Corps?
12 A. What do you mean National Guards Corps?
13 Q. Well, I mean the military formation. Was there a doctor who was a
14 liaison with them?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Yesterday, you spoke about the artillery firing, multi-barrelled
17 rocket launchers firing from the left bank of the Danube and you were able
18 to see them. Can you please tell us whether these tanks and multi-barrel
19 rocket launchers were located in Backa which is in the Republic of Serbia?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Does this mean that these units were outside of the territory of
22 Vukovar municipality?
23 A. That is still a contentious issue. I personally believe that the
24 border runs through Bend and that on the left bank of the Danube, where I
25 personally saw tanks, that that part is still considered the territory of
1 the former municipality of Vukovar.
2 Q. As I see it, that's on the north side of Vukovar municipality.
3 A. That's on the left bank of the Danube, directly across the city of
5 Q. Yesterday, during your testimony, you said that the planes
6 attacked Mitnica even though there was no combat activity there. Don't
7 you know that on the 18th of November, Mitnica battalion, which was part
8 of the National Guards Corps, surrendered? It was part of the National
9 Guards Corps of Vukovar.
10 A. I do know that on the 18th of November, some of the members of the
11 National Guards Corps, led by Filip Karaula surrendered. However,
12 yesterday in my testimony, I did not mention that Mitnica was a civilian
13 settlement and that there was not a single military target that could be
14 bombed by planes. As far as I know, members of the National Guards Corps
15 held borderline positions towards the area where the siege was laid, siege
16 of Vukovar. The planes destructed everything, schools, hospital, just
17 about everything.
18 Q. Mrs. Bosanac, I apologise. I have to interrupt you and ask you
19 this. Wasn't this the last stronghold of the National Guards Corps that
20 remained there until the 18th of November? So can we agree on this, that
21 the stronghold of the National Guards Corps is a legitimate military
23 A. I can't say that that was the National Guards Corps stronghold
24 because there was not a single military facility there which could have
25 housed them.
1 Q. Do you know something about the course of the combat in Mitnica?
2 A. I only know what I heard. I never personally went there.
3 Q. Thank you. In your testimony, when you were asked by my learned
4 friend, you said that the members of the JNA reached the hospital for the
5 first time on the 19th of November 1991. Is that true?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You also said that an officer came with two soldiers and took you
8 to Negoslavci. Did this officer enter the hospital building in the
9 morning of the 19th?
10 A. He came to the reception desk of the hospital.
11 Q. On the previous day, on the 18th, in the presence of a JNA
12 officer, did you speak in the hospital with General Antun Tus, accusing
13 him of not sending aid and saying that that was the cause of the fall of
14 Vukovar and that it was too late to send any kind of assistance?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you know that members of the National Guards Corps, in the last
17 days of combat, killed -- killed people and threw them out of the hospital
18 in order to make space for them there?
19 A. That's not true. At least not while I was at the hospital.
20 Q. Did you at least hear such stories?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know that weapons were found at the hospital, discarded by
23 the members of the National Guards Corps?
24 A. I heard that for the first time in prison, when I was interrogated
25 about whether there were any weapons in the hospital.
1 Q. Thank you. When you were in Negoslavci, did Colonel Mrksic thank
2 you for treating soldier Jovic?
3 A. Yes, he did.
4 Q. Did Colonel Mrksic send food and water to the hospital which
5 arrived approximately at the same time when you returned from Negoslavci
6 to the hospital?
7 A. Yes, he did.
8 Q. Yesterday, you said that during those last days, the 17th, 18th,
9 and 19th, civilians started arriving in the hospital, because they knew
10 there would be an evacuation. How were they able to know that, if they,
11 as you told us, stayed continuously in shelters and basements? How were
12 they able then to acquire such information?
13 A. They probably heard it from each other, heard that an evacuation
14 was being prepared. People knew about that.
15 Q. The flow of the wounded, did that subside after the 17th of
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What about the wounded who were members of the National Guards
20 A. The number of the wounded did decrease. The last major intake was
21 on the 15th of November, in the evening.
22 Q. Members of the Guards and MUP who were withdrawing from other
23 parts of the town, were they all moving in the direction of the hospital?
24 A. Members of the National Guards Corps and police force in those
25 days, upon piercing and breaking the siege, were actually leaving Vukovar.
1 Only the wounded were in the hospital.
2 Q. What you are trying to say is that the majority of ZNG members and
3 police force left Vukovar despite this siege?
4 A. I don't know whether the majority of them managed to flee Vukovar,
5 but I know that following these operations a lot of them ended up in
6 prisons throughout Serbia.
7 Q. The entire command structure, including the commander of Vukovar
8 defence, Mile Dedakovic and the second commander, Borkovic, did they all
9 leave Vukovar?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Yesterday, when asked by my learned friend, you said you were
12 concerned about what was going to happen once the military reached the
13 hospital, and do you know that one of the main conditions for the Mitnica
14 battalion to surrender was the condition that it surrender to the
16 A. No.
17 Q. If we know that the Mitnica Battalion surrendered in Mitnica, that
18 the command structure of the National Guards Corps and MUP had left
19 Vukovar, can you tell us what happened to their other members? Did they
20 perhaps seek shelter in the hospital?
21 A. No. I can't say. I don't know who you have in mind. They did
22 not seek shelter in the hospital. Most of them tried to break through.
23 They were making attempts to break through, for several nights in a row,
24 just before the end.
25 Q. This breakthrough, was that a form of armed combat or do you just
1 mean getting through?
2 A. I mean just getting through. They didn't know what lay in store
3 for them but they broke out anyway.
4 Q. Therefore it seems that the blockade was not as tight as you
5 suggested to us yesterday.
6 A. It was very tight when humanitarian aid was supposed to arrive.
7 Still, many people managed to leave, many of them were captured and spent
8 months in prisons in Serbia. Many of them were killed, and are still
9 listed as missing.
10 Q. You mentioned humanitarian aid missions. Can you confirm that a
11 Medecins Sans Frontieres convoy that evacuated the wounded from the
12 Vukovar Hospital on the 18th of December, in fact -- the 18th of October,
13 in fact deviated from the route that had been agreed with the Croatian
14 National Guards corps commander in Bogdanovci?
15 A. I really can't speak about that. I wasn't part of the convoy
16 myself. I know that the convoy was derailed, as it were, and that it
17 spent the next night and day travelling over muddy fields and coming
18 across a minefield. I know nothing else because I wasn't part of the
19 convoy myself, nor did I have any other information.
20 Q. Do you know about the convoy that was supposed to arrive on the
21 13th of October, and which eventually made it to the Vukovar barracks? Do
22 you know that they couldn't get through to the hospital because the ZNG,
23 National Guards Corps, and MUP command refused to allow them to get
25 A. I don't know why it eventually failed to get through, but I know
1 that they were carrying a lot of medical equipment and medicine that they
2 were made to unload in the barracks and go back without a single pill and
3 a single drip. That's one thing that I know.
4 Q. Can you tell us how the list of the wounded people who arrived in
5 the hospital was made? Did you use notebooks for that purpose?
6 A. There were files, documents, kept in the following way. Any
7 admission would be registered, the wounded, the sick.
8 Q. Was that in fact a notebook that was being used to record these
10 A. No. It was not a notebook, really. There is the register book.
11 It's actually quite big and it's usually kept on the table of the medical
12 centre of the clinic. Information was entered into this register book on
13 the state of the patient, on what sort of surgery a patient undergoes,
14 specialists were typewritten and compiled of patients wounded that were
15 then sent to the health ministry, to the police headquarters, to the
16 Defence Staff.
17 Q. In these register books, in addition to the first and last name of
18 a patient, was their status also reflected?
19 A. Not in the register book but the lists that were sent, that were
20 passed on to the ministry, always clearly stated whether somebody was a
21 member of the National Guards Corps or a civilian, a child or a police
23 Q. Do you know someone named Branko Stankovic? He was a patient at
24 your hospital.
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you, in fact, have an overview of all the patients being
2 admitted into the hospital?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. But you do not remember this particular patient or are you saying
5 that he was never admitted?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. What about Toma Jakovljevic?
8 A. Yes, I know him.
9 Q. Do you know what became of him before combat operations ceased in
11 A. When I was in prison, when I was being interrogated, I know what
12 happened when he was wounded, when he was in the hospital, and then we
13 sent him to Komerc. This is something that I heard in prison.
14 Q. That he was killed there, right?
15 A. I heard that his dead body was found. I don't know how or when he
16 was killed.
17 Q. Do you know what became of the following soldiers, Slavmir Destir
18 [phoen], and Milan Biber who were admitted into the hospital on the 20th
19 of August 1991?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You mean you don't remember or are you saying that they were not
23 A. I can't remember the names of the soldiers who were killed or
24 wounded when they came across some mines on the Borovo road. I think one
25 of them was called Slaven [phoen] but I can't be certain. If these are
1 the people you're talking about, these soldiers who were wounded at that
2 time, they were brought in a van for lack of an ambulance, of course, to
3 the barracks occupied by the JNA.
4 Q. In relation to these soldiers, there is no information indicating
5 that they were taken anywhere, in fact. They are listed as missing in the
6 military files. This is not something that you can tell us about?
7 A. I really don't know.
8 Q. Do you know what happened to Nedeljko Turekalo, admitted on the
9 30th of October 1991, to the Vukovar Hospital?
10 A. I can't remember the name. I can't remember that he was ever
11 brought in, and I don't know what happened.
12 Q. Do you remember a wounded soldier named Ivan Zivkovic who was in
13 the hospital and who joined the convoy that left Vukovar on the 18th of
15 A. I can't remember every single name.
16 Q. You told us yesterday about the special treatment awarded soldiers
17 such as Sasa Jovic, that they were being guarded by the National Guards
18 Corps and being treated by Dr. Njavro. Did you assign Dr. Njavro to treat
19 these patients, or was he assigned by somebody else?
20 A. Dr. Njavro was the chief surgeon of the hospital. He him self
21 decided to treat them, to treat them alone.
22 Q. The National Guards Corps police had a special interest in these
23 people, didn't they?
24 A. Yes. They were worrying, they were making phone calls to inquire
25 about their situation. That sort of thing.
1 Q. Were they in fact being guarded by a member of the National Guards
2 Corps called Damjan Samardzic, also known as The Big Bojler?
3 A. Yes. He was the person who was assigned. He was watching them
4 and that must be one of the reasons they killed him at Ovcara even before
5 they shot everybody else there.
6 Q. My apologies, the name of Damjan Samardzic was not recorded in the
8 Can you tell us when it was that Mile Dedakovic, the Vukovar
9 Defence commander, left Vukovar? Do you know the time?
10 A. I can't say exactly. It was in early October. That's what I
12 Q. When did you get to meet the new commander, Borkovic, also known
13 as Mladi Jastreb?
14 A. I met him in early September, when Mile Dedakovic appointed
15 Borkovic as coordinator for civilian protection and for the municipal
16 Crisis Staff. That was the first time I saw him. Later on, I used to see
17 him at the headquarters whenever I went there to send faxes.
18 Q. While Borkovic was commander of the Vukovar defence, did he not in
19 fact disconnect your phone lines, the hospital phone lines, connecting you
20 to the outer world?
21 A. No. He said 10 days earlier that there would be a blockade, an
22 information blockade to prevent information from reaching anyone outside.
23 My phone lines were operational all the way to the very end, which I used
24 to send out my appeals. And the same applied to Radio Vukovar.
25 Q. Did he not in fact do the same thing to the Crisis Staff? Did he
1 not disconnect their lines, cut off their lines of communication?
2 A. I don't know what he did about the Crisis Staff, but I know that I
3 myself was sending these faxes throughout all the way until the 15th of
4 November. If you go back to the documents, you can check the dates and
5 see for how long I continued to send out these appeals by phone.
6 Q. Is it not true that for a while you were using a phone that was
7 not in the hospital in order to send your messages, a phone that was
8 located else where?
9 A. I used the hospital telephone but I used the fax machine which was
10 in the Defence Staff building and the police building. That's until the
11 time that the police building was destroyed. But I had the phone
12 throughout. The first time I was unable to talk was on the 20th, in the
13 morning, when I was brought back to the hospital from Negoslavci.
14 Q. In your statement mentioned yesterday by my learned friend, the
15 Prosecutor, the statement that you gave the security bodies while you were
16 in prison, Colonel Branko, more specifically, did you not say that
17 Borkovic had cut off your communication lines as well as those of the
18 Crisis Staff?
19 A. I can't say exactly what I stated on that occasion. I do know
20 that he said he would impose an information ban on all information leaving
21 Vukovar. That was 10 days before the fall of Vukovar. I took this to be
22 a sign of his desperation, of his helplessness, his inability to do
23 anything about it. But as I've already said I was able to physically use
24 the phone on all days until the 20th. Most of the other phone lines had
25 been demolished and you couldn't call just anyone you liked. You couldn't
1 just call outside whenever and whoever you wanted to call.
2 Q. You spoke today about categories of persons and the markings that
3 you made pursuant to a request by the Prosecutor. I'm talking about the
4 list that was tendered today.
5 There is a category there defined as help worker at the hospital.
6 Can you please specify what that means?
7 A. Those were persons helping out at the hospital, auxiliaries
8 working as butchers, storage people, porters. They were carrying water.
9 Q. I wanted to ask you whether that category includes civilians and
10 soldiers also?
11 A. Yes. That's precisely what I was about to say. There were
12 persons who had been tasked with a security detail by the Defence Staff
13 and they were at the hospital as security. There were people from the
14 police who were in charge of collecting weapons, identifying dead bodies
15 and sending lists off to the police. That is why I defined the category
16 as I did.
17 Q. Who was it who defined this category? Who had the authority to
18 say who was and who was not a helping worker, help worker?
19 A. The defence commander sent certain people to the hospital to help
20 out and to provide security. So did the chief of police.
21 Q. Thank you. A while ago we mentioned Colonel Branko who you gave
22 your statement to. Can you describe his physical appearance, if you still
23 remember what he looks like?
24 A. It's difficult. Not very small, not very tall. Say, medium
25 build, dark hair. Balding slightly.
1 Q. Thank you. Were you in a position to see a letter of protest
2 which reads indictment, and was in fact sent to the leaders of the
3 Republic of Croatia?
4 A. By whom?
5 Q. Where the government of the Republic of Croatia is accused of
6 having betrayed Vukovar? Perhaps you would like some water.
7 A. No, no. I'm thinking about what indictment and what letter you
8 have in mind.
9 Q. Did you see a letter of protest entitled "indictment"
10 or "accusation" sent by the Crisis Staff to the Croatian government
11 accusing them of having betrayed Vukovar and its defenders as well as its
13 A. I believe that I actually saw parts of that letter, after I was
14 released from prison.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please go into
17 private session for a moment? I would like to ask the witness some
18 questions in reference to witnesses who have been granted protection.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
20 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. You said that between 80 and 90 shells, bombs and missiles hit the
21 hospital daily. This means that from the 15th of August to mid-November,
22 that would come up to between 6 and 7.000 various shells, and over 40.000
23 kilograms of explosives. Don't you think that, in view of these figures,
24 and this amount, the hospital should be completely razed to the ground and
25 we would not be able to see the footage that we saw when you were examined
1 in chief by our learned friend?
2 A. I stated about the facts that I'm sure of, and that I knew about.
3 I didn't count bombs, shells, and all other ordnance every day. I don't
4 know whether you ever visited Vukovar after the 20th of November. Had you
5 visited it, then you would have known that that was true. This is what
6 landed on the hospital, and hundred times more various ordnance landed on
7 the entire town.
8 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Bosanac.
9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have any further
10 questions, as we have agreement among us Defence counsel not to overlap in
11 our questions.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The witness said in
13 fact that she did count the ordnance that fell on the hospital, not "did
14 not count," as is recorded.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Did you hear that last correction, Mr. Vasic? It
16 wouldn't have troubled you. It only troubled those who were hearing an
17 English-language interpretation. You would have heard the answer in
19 Thank you, Mr. Vasic.
20 I think probably this is a convenient time to break, and we can
21 continue cross-examination after the break.
22 We will resume at 20 minutes to one. That's at 12.40.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore?
1 MR. MOORE: Your Honours, just one matter I'd like the Court's
2 guidance on, please. We have just had served on us some documents by the
3 Defence that are going to be used in cross-examination. Well, of course,
4 I don't in any way criticise the Defence ability to cross-examine on
5 documents, but with the utmost respect, in fairness to the Prosecution in
6 this instance, it would have been helpful if we have at least see the
7 documents so we have a chance to read them, assimilate them and to mount
8 an objection if it's necessary. We have always given the Defence the
9 documents that we intend to rely upon; they have had opportunities to do
10 so. My understanding is that people have got to be even-handed. I
11 understand Mr. Lukic's point about surprise but nevertheless this is not
12 surprise. This is disadvantage. And that in my submission is
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, without calling on the Defence, there is
15 a fundamental distinction; that is the Prosecution has an obligation to
16 disclose all relevant documents for and against its case to the Defence.
17 Under the more traditional view of disclosure by the Defence, there is no
18 equivalent obligation on the Defence. And that, of course, is what was at
19 the point of this issue which was debated and decided yesterday --
20 MR. MOORE: Yes.
21 JUDGE PARKER: -- that is about disclosure. It is well-recognised
22 that an unsatisfactory consequence of the traditional view is that
23 documents may be produced of which the Prosecution has no familiarity and
24 which they must, on the run, as it were, decide whether the document can
25 be the subject of valid objection and, even more problematic, whether they
1 will be in a position to deal effectively with that document in
2 re-examination, when the time comes. Because of that unsatisfactory
3 element, as I indicated yesterday, some jurisdictions in the world are
4 gradually changing to some degree from the traditional rigid position so
5 as to enable the trial to run more smoothly and to enable counsel to be in
6 a better position to deal with issues as they arise. It's often said in
7 shorthand it's not in the interests of justice for there to be trial by
8 ambush, and in a sense, this traditional position enables trial by ambush.
9 We are well aware of all of that, but if the Defence feels it has
10 reason not to disclose a document, unless we see from a pattern of conduct
11 that that is being unnecessarily abused, we, at the moment, take the
12 position that the traditional position, which has prevailed long in this
13 Tribunal, should continue in this trial. A consequence is, unfortunately
14 for the length of the trial, that you may need to seek to delay
15 re-examination, you may have to make objections to a document which, had
16 you been more fully prepared, would you not have needed to do so. Those
17 things may happen. And it also may mean that you may have to seek a delay
18 in your re-examination. You may even need to mount a submission for leave
19 to call evidence in rebuttal. All of that prolonging may be a consequence
20 of what can occur. There is nothing knew about that in this trial. It's
21 typical of trials in this Tribunal, and under the traditional adversarial
23 In the interests of the speed and efficiency of this trial, which
24 the accused have more interest in than anybody else because I'm sure the
25 sooner they can get this trial concluded and know exactly where they
1 stand, the better it is for them. In the interests of that, we would very
2 much encourage Defence counsel at this stage, unless they have particular
3 reason with a particular document, to have common sense and courtesy, and
4 try and allow the Prosecution to have some advance knowledge of the
5 documents they may intend to use, both in cross-examination and when the
6 Defence comes to be presenting their respective cases. If that can be
7 done, for the most part, we can minimise unnecessary delay, unnecessary
8 adjournment, unnecessary need to recall witnesses, and so on.
9 What I have said, though, I trust it would remain clear that at
10 the moment the Chamber is prepared to recognise and respect that Defence
11 counsel may have particular reason, with a particular document, to want to
12 deal with it without notice. As long as that isn't being abused, the
13 present position of the Chamber is, as indicated yesterday, that it will
14 not interfere with that way of conducting the Defence case.
15 But as indicated yesterday, we will be keeping the position under
16 review and we may come back as the practice direction and the rules allow,
17 to requiring an earlier notice of all documents, if the position is not
18 handled sensibly and responsibly.
19 Now, I trust those impromptu comments will make clear the
20 Chamber's understanding and appreciation of the position and that we are
21 constantly watching how this is handled by counsel, and while I've been
22 speaking of Prosecution and Defence, at the moment I'm doing so in the
23 context of the Prosecution case. The reverse applies when the Defence is
24 presenting its case equally.
25 So, Mr. Moore, the answer is we are sorry and concerned that you
1 have just got a bundle of documents. It may be a position aggravated at
2 the moment because of the earliness of the trial and the complications of
3 getting documents ordered with the change of plan with regard to the
4 electronic court system. I would hope that the Prosecution will find that
5 as the trial progresses you will have reasonable notice of the majority,
6 if not all of documents that will be used in cross-examination.
7 MR. MOORE: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic?
9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I am
10 Mr. Borovic representing Miroslav Radic. I said this with the benefit of
11 the witness. Before I begin my cross-examination I need to give an
12 explanation to the Trial Chamber. And I would ask the president of the
13 Trial Chamber to give an instruction to the Defence.
14 We said today that we received last night the documents that were
15 promised to us by the approximate several days ago. We received it
16 yesterday with the translation and, in the future, this ought to be done
17 in accordance with instructions received from the Trial Chamber and in
18 the -- in accordance with the agreement we made yesterday.
19 In order to be sure that we all interpret the instructions in the
20 same way, I would like to know whether, on occasion, I would be able to
21 use the statements of witnesses who have not yet testified in trial. I am
22 not saying that that would be my motive, to do that, to have them admitted
23 in advance, but, since all of these documents have been disclosed to us,
24 what we would like to do is to present certain documents when examining
25 witnesses. This is needed in order for -- in order to achieve trial
1 efficiency and to ensure fair proceedings and, since we have the witness
2 before us here today, we think it would be wise to present certain
3 documents to this witness in order to avoid any waste of time in the
4 future. Thank you.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, for the purposes of cross-examination,
6 you would not normally be able to tender, for example, the statement of a
7 witness who had not yet given evidence, as part of your case. You may
8 well, however, having read a statement that's been provided to you of
9 evidence that is expected to be given by a witness, you may well want to
10 put to a witness now giving evidence questions to see whether that witness
11 agrees with what you understand will be said in the future or disagrees
12 with it. You can do that normally without having need to show the witness
13 the actual statement. You simply say, "If a witness were to say this or
14 that, is that something you agree with?" Or "you know very well Mr.
15 Smith. Would it surprise you to learn that Mr. Smith has made a statement
16 indicating that things happened very differently from what you have said?
17 And he said this or that." I just use those as simple illustrations of
18 the way you may test with a present witness evidence that may arise at
19 some future time.
20 Separately from that, there may be times where a particular
21 document which has been disclosed to you by the Prosecution in its
22 disclosure, or which you have and you believe to be an authentic document,
23 and which appears to be contrary to evidence that's being given by a
24 present witness, you may well want or need to put that actual document to
25 the witness and say, "Now, this document appears to contradict what you're
1 saying," or whatever it may be and get the witness's reaction to the
2 document. In that case, unless the Prosecution agrees to the document
3 then becoming evidence, you would need to have the document marked for
4 identification and at some later time, you would need yourself to prove
5 that document in evidence by some proper means. If it's a document which
6 is going to be presented by some future Prosecution witness, when that
7 future Prosecution witness is giving evidence, you in your
8 cross-examination might put that document to that witness, have the
9 witness identify and authenticate the document, and then it could be
10 transferred from merely being marked for identification to becoming an
12 Is that a sufficient indication for you of where the Chamber sees
13 the position?
14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is more than
15 sufficient. I'm very grateful to you for your instructions. In order not
16 to waste any time in the future, I asked for this instruction to be given
17 to us now. Thank you.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I'm merely outlining to you the law relevant
19 to admissibility in cross-examination, the general law, at least as I
20 understand it. I would suggest that you and all other counsel might use
21 that as a basis for your approach to questioning and the use of documents
22 in cross-examination. If you have a particular problem, of course, you
23 may always raise that with the Chamber. But you can treat that as an
24 indication of our general position. Thank you.
25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Borovic:
2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I shall begin with my first
4 Q. This has to do with one of the questions already asked by my
5 colleague, Mr. Vasic. The first question was whether Mr. Rade Popovic
6 resigned as hospital manager as the witness stated or was he in fact
7 removed from that position? My question is: Does the witness know
8 Binazija Kolesar?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Was she employed by the hospital? Was she working at the hospital
11 during these combat operations?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Binazija Kolesar, according to a statement she gave the OTP, which
15 my learned friend can no doubt confirm, on the 20th of June 1995, page 2,
16 paragraph 2, states that the manager of the Vukovar general hospital
17 before Dr. Vesna Bosanac was Dr. Rade Popovic, and he was removed from his
18 post in 1991. I move that these documents be made evidence and can the
19 usher please distribute to all participants, as well as to the witness,
20 evidence from tab 1?
21 JUDGE PARKER: They can be distributed at the moment for the
22 purposes of examining. We'll look at the question of whether they should
23 be evidence a little later.
24 MR. MOORE: We would object to that course. If it's the document
25 that my learned friend is referring to, which is dated the 18th of July,
1 the correct procedure, in my submission, is for the doctor to look at this
2 document to ascertain whether she has seen the document before, has any
3 knowledge of the document or created the document, if she does not know of
4 the document, in my submission, she should not be then asked any questions
5 in relation to it. It may well be that this document can be adduced as
6 evidence as part of the Defence case but a witness in my submission, if
7 they say they don't know the document, or to what it relates, in my
8 submission, is inadmissible.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, I think we are in firm agreement. You
10 misunderstood the purport I have said. It can be distributed now so that
11 it's in the hands of parties, as Mr. Borovic then puts the document to the
12 witness. I said we would look later at the question of whether or not it
13 should be admitted in evidence. And that will be determined in part on
14 the witness's reaction to the document and what she knows of it. Is that
15 clear enough, Mr. Borovic?
16 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Crystal clear, Your Honour. I
17 expected that once I've asked my questions, the Prosecutor would be
18 reacting, which they did with no delay. I'm now preparing to have the
19 document distributed to the witness and to ask her questions about the
20 document, and about Kolesar Binazija's statement which I have just quoted.
22 Q. My first question therefore: Is it true what Kolesar Binazija is
23 saying here, namely that Dr. Popovic was in fact removed from his post.
24 MR. MOORE: With the utmost respect I object to that. Kolesar's
25 statement does not say that. It says "replaced," not "removed."
1 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, this is
2 in fact precisely what the statement says, that the manager of the general
3 hospital before Dr. Vesna Bosanac was Dr. Rade Popovic who was removed in
4 1991. This is not the same as resigning from your post.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, we are getting tied up with the
6 document. The question you put was not related to the document at all.
7 It was simply asking the doctor whether Dr. Popovic was removed in 1991.
8 And you haven't yet had an answer to that. When you get an answer to that
9 from the witness's knowledge, you may then want to say, if you have a
10 document that is contradicting that, you may want to show the witness the
11 document and ask the witness whether she recognises the document, whether
12 she agrees with its content, if it says something different from what you
13 are putting to the witness. Is that helpful?
14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, whatever you say is
15 helpful. Needless to say. But I closely followed the questions of my
16 colleague, Mr. Vasic. In answer to the same question, the witness
17 insisted that Dr. Popovic resigned of his own free will and this is why
18 I'm trying to ask the question in a different way by showing the witness
19 this statement which claims that he did not in fact resign but rather was
20 removed from his post. I'm trying to show the witness this document.
21 Therefore, I will try to re-ask this same question now.
22 JUDGE PARKER: You're not only re-asking the question. You're
23 wanting now to have the witness examine this document and see whether that
24 changes her mind. Is that what you're wanting to do?
25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, yes. That is precisely
2 JUDGE PARKER: Good. And is the document the first document in
3 the bundle that you've provided? A letter of the 1st of December 1991?
4 Or is it some other document?
5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I enclosed a document dated the 18th
6 of July 1991. This is a request for dismissal by the justice ministry.
7 It's in tab 1, as I have stated previously.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I was misled by the endorsement that's
9 up at the top right-hand corner in handwriting. It's -- the date of the
10 document is the 18th of July 1991.
11 Now, I believe that Dr. Bosanac has that, a copy of that in front
12 of her.
13 Do you recognise the document at all, doctor?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Now, could you direct the doctor's attention,
16 please, Mr. Borovic, to the particular paragraph that you're concerned
18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I'll start with the bit where
19 it says, "Subject," request for the removal of or dismissal of director,
20 Dr. Rade Popovic.
21 Q. The question is: Was this a request by the ministry prompted by
22 the doctor's proposal to resign or was there a different reason behind
24 A. I will first answer your first question. Do you want me to answer
25 your first question about Binazija Kolesar or the other one?
1 Q. As the Court pleases. Perhaps you should start by answering the
2 first question.
3 A. I stand by my previous statement. Dr. Rade Popovic resigned of
4 his own free will from his post as manager of the Vukovar general
5 hospital. I was present at the meeting of the workers council when he
6 handed in his resignation. Binazija Kolesar was not an employee of the
7 hospital administration at the time. What she stated was perhaps based on
9 Q. Can the witness now please answer the second question?
10 A. I don't know whether this letter, sent by the health ministry on
11 the 18th of July 1991 to the chairman of the workers' council, was sent
12 after the dismissal request -- whether Dr. Popovic himself handed in a
13 request to resign or not. This is something that I don't know. It was
14 only after I was myself appointed manager of the hospital, or, rather,
15 acting manager, that I first laid eyes on this document.
16 In as far as that is relevant to the Court, perhaps it would be a
17 good idea to call Rade Popovic such himself to testify. He still works at
18 the Vukovar Hospital. And a correction, if I may, he did not resign from
19 the hospital altogether. He just resigned from his post as manager but he
20 continued to work as a neuropsychiatrist within the hospital itself.
21 Q. Therefore, Binazija Kolesar, a witness who appeared quite decided
22 in her statement when saying that he was dismissed and had not in fact
23 resigned, is not speaking the truth?
24 A. I wasn't -- I was there when he handed in his resignation.
25 Q. So what would be your answer to my question?
1 A. My answer is I was physically present at this meeting where he
2 handed in his resignation.
3 Q. But I asked you whether Binazija Kolesar was speaking the truth or
4 are you speaking the truth?
5 A. I know for a fact that I am the one speaking the truth.
6 Q. Thank you. In answer to a question by my learned friend Mr. Vasic
7 whether explosives were laid to Serb shops, we heard the witness say that
8 she was familiar with one particular case where the Serbs laid explosives
9 to their own shop in order to collect the insurance. My question to the
10 witness in relation to this incident is: Does the witness in fact know
11 who is -- who Delika Mirsic [phoen] is?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. Is this a person that the witness mentioned in her previous
14 statements to various military and judicial authorities?
15 A. No.
16 Q. In Sremska Mitrovica, did the witness give a statement referred to
17 by the Prosecutor today? Did she give many statements or just this one
18 that was mentioned by the Prosecutor during his examination?
19 A. During my captivity in Sremska Mitrovica and Belgrade, I gave a
20 written statement concerning a number of different situations, both before
21 and during the war in Vukovar.
22 Q. My specific question is: The statement that was referred to by
23 the Prosecutor today, given by the witness during her captivity in the
24 Sremska Mitrovica prison, her detention, she confirmed that she did indeed
25 give this statement and signed it -- sign it, she certainly not happy that
1 she was in prison there but she certainly stated that she was there in
2 prison. I would now like to read a portion of the statement which has a
3 heading. We will have this shown if necessary and I think the Prosecutor
4 can confirm that this is the very statement, because they quoted the
5 statement today. There is --
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, could you show a copy of the document
7 to the witness, and the witness, I would expect, would know better than
8 anybody whether it was the statement she made.
9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,
10 please? Thank you.
11 Q. The first question is: Is this the statement that the witness
12 herself wrote?
13 A. I confirm that this is the statement that I wrote in prison in
14 Sremska Mitrovica.
15 Q. Thank you. Next question.
16 A. In future, sir, please, if you would be so kind to allow me to
17 finish my sentence.
18 Q. By all means. Please go ahead.
19 A. I just wish to say I confirm that to the extent that I can see
20 this is indeed my handwriting, and a portion of the statement that I wrote
21 while I was in detention in Sremska Mitrovica. There is one thing that I
22 wish to point out to the Trial Chamber, however. I wrote this statement
23 in detention, and under duress. I was being guided and instructed as to
24 what I was supposed to write and how.
25 Q. I have not tendered this document in my capacity as Defence
1 counsel. I'm merely showing a statement which you have just confirmed
2 that you wrote and signed.
3 Can the witness please read out this portion that I have now
4 shown, just below the heading, "The mining and torching of cafes owned by
5 Serbs," whether this will in fact be tendered into evidence and what the
6 probative value of the document might have is something that the Court
7 will determine later on. Can you just please read the first portion of --
8 A. The first portion of the page, you mean?
9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wanted her to read
10 out the bit where it says "the mining and torching of Serb-owned cafes."
11 This statement runs into dozens of pages and that is one reason why I am
12 not yet tendering it.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying again that I wrote this
14 statement under duress, in detention. I was being guided and instructed
15 as to what and how I was supposed to write. Whether I heard that
16 Serb-owned cafes and houses were being torched in Vukovar, the heading
17 itself, too, was dictated to me by the interrogator. "The torching and
18 mining of Serb-owned cafes" ...
19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Can the witness please continue reading the text?
21 JUDGE PARKER: Is this a document we have a copy of in this
22 bundle, Mr. Borovic?
23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The reason is I
24 will not be tendering this document into evidence today.
25 JUDGE PARKER: If you're wanting us to appreciate what is there
1 written, it would be appropriate in all future cases to have copies
2 available for the Chamber, if you're putting a paper document to the
3 witness. I take it, Mr. Moore, you have a copy?
4 MR. MOORE: I have an English translation, but I don't know to
5 which part my learned friend is referring. I suspect it may be on the
6 English version 1224 on the hard copy but I suspect the problem will arise
8 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on for the moment, Mr. Borovic.
9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the witness --
10 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry, over your shoulder I see Mr. Lukic trying to
11 get a word in.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to be of assistance, both
13 to the Chamber and the rest of the parties in the courtroom. My team has
14 prepared this document to be tendered in -- when we conduct our
15 cross-examination. It is ready, and even though it is not our turn yet, I
16 think that it is ready now. The entire document has about 160 pages,
17 together with an English translation, and our team has prepared that in
18 the electronic version. Perhaps that could be done now through the
19 Registrar so that we can use this document now when my colleague,
20 Mr. Borovic, is questioning the witness.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic. I think that will
22 be of assistance to Mr. Borovic and to the Chamber, so that we will be
23 able to follow what is being put. Hopefully it will be able to be turned
24 up in a moment.
25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence teams have
1 divided among them various documents to be tendered during their bits of
2 cross-examination or examination, and this is what the Defence team of
3 Mr. Sljivancanin has told us. The numbers are 3D 00-001 for the B/C/S
4 version and 3D 00-0126 is the English version.
5 [Trial chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for your patience, Mr. Borovic. We have
7 overcome some parts of the technical issues. Please continue.
8 Now, what we do need to be guided to is where in the
9 English-language version we will find the passage you are referring to.
10 Are you able to tell us that?
11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] As I said, it's somewhere in the
12 middle of the text. There is a subheading, "The cafes are being set on
13 fire and blown up." It's on page 107 of the B/C/S text.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
15 Mr. Moore, are you able to convert to the English text?
16 MR. MOORE: If the Court turns to the hard copy for a moment
17 and --
18 JUDGE PARKER: We don't have it.
19 MR. MOORE: Well, I have it on my number, ERN number, and I have a
20 copy here which is Y0041224. That is the number that I have and the
21 subtext that I think it may relate to is how a cafe owned by Serbs was
22 torched and blown up. So the number is Y0041224. I believe that may be
23 the section but I don't speak B/C/S, I'm afraid.
24 JUDGE PARKER: We will look at page 54 and 55 and see -- just
25 doing a quick lot of mathematics.
1 MR. MOORE: Yes, that's correct.
2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will try to be of
3 assistance. Page 55 of the English version, number 3D 00-0180. The text
4 is -- the relevant portion is somewhere in the middle.
5 [Trial chamber confers]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.
7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
8 In the interests of justice, I have to be patient and persistent.
9 Thank you.
10 Q. Could the witness please read the text.
11 A. Your Honours, could this be shown on my monitor, please? I would
12 like to see what you are seeing on your monitors because on my monitor I
13 only have the first page of the said statement. I want to be sure that
14 you can follow and check what I'm reading. Or do you want me to reply
16 JUDGE PARKER: What was the page number in the B/C/S version,
17 Mr. Borovic?
18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] 107. And this is precisely the page
19 we gave to the witness.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I have in front of me is page
21 9, 109. I ask that the English translation of this page be shown on the
22 monitor so that I can compare the two to make sure that that is precisely
23 the page.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Do you read a heading, "How a cafe owned by Serbs
25 was torched and blown up" on the page in front of you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that.
2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I can be of
3 assistance here. I have another copy of the B/C/S version. There is a
4 single subheading there. You have the same page on your screens. And
5 could this please be shown to the witness?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it on my screen now.
7 Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
9 Now, you're asking the witness to read this to herself before you
10 ask questions or do you want her to read it aloud?
11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask her to read it
12 out loud because previously she stated, loud and clear, she didn't know
13 Darko Markobasic, and from this portion here you will see how things
14 actually lie. This is something written in the handwriting of the
16 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated]
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Naturally, but prior to this, I
18 would like to state that I did not reply to the question put by Defence
19 about Marko -- Darko Markobasic and I didn't say that I didn't know him.
20 I said that I knew him. Whereas what I actually said was, when asked by
21 you, that I did not say so in any statements I have given.
22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Bosanac. Now, could you please read the text?
24 A. "I, as well as many other citizens, were unpleasantly surprised
25 upon learning that every four or five days a Serbian restaurant is blown
1 up. The Borba kiosk in Vukovar and Borovo Naselje was blown up as well.
2 Later on, it was rumoured that this had been done by former criminals,
3 such as Darko Markobasic and the like. At the time, they were members of
4 the Tomislav Merced Guards and that of Plisa Marin [phoen]. I remember
5 that the first one to be blown up was the Sareka [phoen] kebab shop owned
6 by Djordje Betic [phoen] near the market. I was especially shocked by
7 that because that was the first terrorist attack. I knew the owner
8 personally, and I frequently went to that place with my sons. Later on,
9 the Borba kiosk at the market was blown up. The next one was the Brdo
10 cafe near the log market." Now I have read it.
11 Q. Thank you, Witness. Do you still stand by your statement that you
12 have never previously in any of your other statements mentioned Darko
13 Markobasic? Or rather Davor Markobasic?
14 A. Your Honours, I wrote this down in prison, 14 years ago. I
15 completely forget that I ever mentioned this. What actually happened here
16 is that I heard this. I never personally witnessed anything like this.
17 Q. Thank you. Now we heard from the witness that she knows who
18 Tomislav Mercep is. My question is as follows: In June of 1991, did
19 Mercep, Tomislav limit the freedom of movement of the citizens of Vukovar
20 and were there any permits issued and signed by him?
21 A. I heard that he had some permits signed by him, or rather the
22 staff of the All People's Defence secretariat.
23 Q. Thank you. We heard that due to the amount of work at the
24 hospital, the witness, when asked by my learned friend, Mr. Vasic,
25 answered something, and I will now put a question related to that.
1 How is it that all of those faxed calls for help were not sent to
2 Vinkovci or to the National Defence Staff through various help workers,
3 drivers, and so on, or through the policemen securing the hospital? And
4 why did she instead personally left the hospital daily in October and
5 November in order to send a fax?
6 A. I wrote these faxes personally. I believed them to be important.
7 And I wanted to send them personally. Everybody had their tasks in the
8 hospital. They were all busy. Every time one left the hospital, one
9 exposed oneself to a great risk, and only if you were lucky and God
10 protected you, you had a chance of staying alive. I did not want to
11 expose anyone to the risk and send them out to send the fax. So that's
12 why I did that myself.
13 Q. My next question is as follows: Did she have direct telephone
14 line to the police, the Defence Staff in Vukovar, or that in Vinkovci?
15 A. I had a direct telephone line.
16 Q. Thank you. At a certain point in time, did the Serb patients stop
17 coming to the hospital?
18 A. What do you mean by "Serb patients"?
19 Q. Patients of Serbian ethnicity?
20 A. People of all ethnicities kept coming, Croats, Serbs, and
21 everybody else.
22 Q. Does that mean that the answer is that the Serb patients didn't
23 stop coming to the hospital?
24 A. The only patients who did not come to the hospital were those who
25 were outside of the siege. Within the city of Vukovar and Borovo Naselje,
1 patients of all ethnicities continuously came to the hospital.
2 Q. The next question I would like to show the witness Binazija
3 Kolesar's statement. The OTP is, of course, in possession of this
4 statement. 19th and 20th of June 1995, page 3, paragraph 1. The
5 statement reads, "After the killing of the Croatian police officers in
6 Borovo in 1991, Serb doctors and nurses started leaving their jobs at the
7 hospital, saying that they were afraid of the return of the Ustashas who
8 would then slit their throats. Many Serb patients likewise stopped going
9 to the hospital. The overall number of patients decreased."
10 Just another sentence: "From the Borovo Selo clash onwards, the
11 hospital also treated wounded Croatian police officers but they were being
12 guarded by armed police officers inside the hospital. It was then that
13 the Serb civilian patients stopped going there because of the concern
14 caused them by the presence of Croatian policemen at the hospital."
15 My question for the witness is: What Binazija Kolesar is stating,
16 is it true or not?
17 A. According to my knowledge, my information, patients from all
18 ethnic backgrounds were coming to the hospital throughout. As for the
19 Serb medical staff leaving, I would just like to say that some, and I
20 emphasise "some" of the doctors and nurses did indeed stop coming to work.
21 As for the other facts, you can't ask me that's true or not. According to
22 the information I have, it is certainly not true.
23 Q. Thank you. We mentioned Mile Dedakovic, also known as Jastreb
24 today. My question is, where was his headquarters in Vukovar? Does the
25 witness know that?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Where?
3 A. It was in the garden of a building that was being used as the All
4 People's Defence secretariat.
5 Q. Was this a military facility?
6 A. To me, a barracks would be a military facility. This was just an
7 every day, unmarked building that was being used as the All People's
8 Defence secretariat. The headquarters of the staff itself was
10 Q. In that same building?
11 A. Sorry?
12 Q. The staff.
13 A. In the garden of that building.
14 Q. Thank you. What about the Croatian police? Where did they have
15 their own headquarters at the time?
16 A. At the police building, which was near the Court building.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, we've reached the time, I'm afraid.
18 We just adjourn now and resume tomorrow at nine in the morning, if I could
19 ask you to return then, doctor. Thank you.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day of October,
22 2005, at 9.00 a.m.