Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 845

1 Monday, 31 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Could the witness be brought in, please.

6 [The witness entered court]


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, Dr. Bosanac, if I could remind you

10 of the affirmation you made at the commencement of your evidence, which

11 still applies. I would also mention that word has been passed to me from

12 the Victims and Witnesses Unit that Dr. Bosanac is concerned whether she

13 might look at the transcript of the proceedings on Friday, as she has a

14 concern that she confused some documents in giving her evidence.

15 I thought I would mention that in court before acting on it, to

16 see whether there was any concern at that occurring.

17 If there is no concern, we will arrange for that to occur. It

18 probably won't be convenient for that to occur before you finish your

19 evidence today, Doctor. If you look at the evidence overnight and feel

20 you have a concern that you made a mistake, that word can be passed to the

21 Chamber and we will arrange for you to be recalled tomorrow to clarify

22 whatever it is that concerns you.

23 Is that satisfactory?

24 Very well. Thank you for that. Now, Mr. Lukic, were you in the

25 course of your cross-examination.

Page 846

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good

2 afternoon to my friends and colleagues from the OTP.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

4 Q. Good afternoon to the witness. I will now continue with my

5 cross-examination of the witness.

6 As for the following set of questions that I'm about to ask you,

7 could you please focus exclusively on the number of wounded and sick who

8 were in fact in the hospital as patients in the last days before the

9 war -- before the fall. Can you please exclude medical staff, the

10 families of the medical staff wounded from this reckoning. You told me on

11 Friday, during your testimony on examination-in-chief, that on the 18th of

12 November, there were no new sick or wounded persons registered at the

13 hospital. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Does that mean that the last wounded and ill persons to be

16 registered in the hospital were registered on the 17th or on the 18th?

17 Can you perhaps remember that?

18 A. I remember that from the 18th of November on, not one new wounded

19 person was admitted into the hospital.

20 Q. I assume that you forwarded this information to Zagreb, more

21 specifically to Dr. Hebrang, in relation to your negotiations on

22 evacuation.

23 A. We spoke on the phone and I told him at the time that there were

24 about 400 wounded and sick to be evacuated.

25 Q. Please, let's take one thing at a time. I'm just asking you about

Page 847

1 whether you forwarded that specific bit of information to Hebrang or not.

2 Perhaps for the benefit of the Chamber, let us be more specific about

3 this. Who was Mr. Hebrang at the time? Which position did he hold?

4 A. He was the health Minister of the Republic of Croatia. He

5 negotiated on the evacuation on behalf of the Croatian government.

6 Q. Can you please try to think back? What I want to know is do you

7 remember, concerning the number of the wounded and ill in the hospital on

8 that day, or on those days, the 17th, the 18th or perhaps the 20th, the

9 last days before the fall, how many were envisaged to be transported out

10 of the hospital in an ambulance, having been classified as immobile, and

11 how many of them were actually able to get on to buses and be taken away

12 on buses? Is this something you remember?

13 A. I remember that at the time, there were about 400 wounded and ill

14 persons in the hospital. About half of them, between 180 and 200 required

15 transport by an ambulance. Those people were either seriously wounded or

16 immobile, were not able to walk.

17 Q. Did all of the wounded and sick persons wish to be taken back to

18 Croatia during the evacuation?

19 A. We drew up lists and we took this into account. Most of those

20 requested to go back to Croatia. Some requested to go to Belgrade or Novi

21 Sad and some of them in fact requested to remain where they were in

22 Vukovar.

23 Q. Do you perhaps know that about 110 wounded and sick requested to

24 go to Belgrade and Novi Sad? Is this something that you're familiar with?

25 A. I'm aware that some of them did in fact request that but I do not

Page 848

1 remember their specific number.

2 Q. Just for the benefit of the claim, Novi Sad, where is Novi Sad?

3 A. Novi Sad is in Vojvodina, Yugoslavia, now Serbia and Montenegro.

4 Q. When you spoke to Mr. Hebrang on the phone about the specific

5 numbers of persons and the facilities to be used during the evacuation,

6 ambulances, and so on and so forth, did he mention that there might be

7 trouble, that he might be facing a lot of trouble organising the requested

8 number of ambulances and other technical necessities?

9 A. He never said he believed they would be facing any difficulty with

10 that. He only said that the first stretch of the evacuation route would

11 be secured by the International Red Cross and the Yugoslav army jointly.

12 And the stretch from Nustar on would have ambulances and medical vehicles

13 waiting for the wounded to be taken away.

14 Q. Therefore, on the 17th, when you spoke to Hebrang you told him

15 that there were between 180 and 200 wounded that required transport by

16 special medical vehicles, isn't that what you told him?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Correction, line -- it's been corrected. Thank you.

19 You testified on Thursday, the 27th, about there being about 180

20 seriously wounded persons and a total of 400 people to be included in the

21 evacuation; isn't that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Two days earlier, before this very same Trial Chamber, you spoke

24 about 450 people needing evacuation. You said that on the 25th, page 15

25 of the transcript. Do you remember that?

Page 849

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. You spoke about these same figures in your statement to the

3 investigators of the OTP in 1995. On the occasion you said that on the

4 17th of November, you had a total of 250 wounded persons and over 100

5 elderly and sick. You did say that in 1995. I suppose you've gone

6 through your statement since. You saw it the other day; it was shown to

7 you.

8 A. Yes, of course, I did read it again. However this is a statement

9 that I gave back in 1995 and I can no longer remember with any degree of

10 accuracy what exactly I said. I know there were between 400 and 450

11 wounded and sick persons at the hospital but I can't be very specific

12 about the figures right now.

13 Q. Well, it's been only two days and the discrepancy amounts to 50

14 persons. So that seems like a significant figure to me.

15 A. That's certainly not all right, but there is something I wish to

16 clarify.

17 Q. Please do so.

18 A. On the last days all of those who arrived, I'm talking about the

19 lightly wounded with surface wounds, dislocated joints, the hospital was

20 brimful with these people. We would dress their wounds and just send them

21 off to nearby shelters. As I said before, in early November, the route

22 along Priljevo street had been blocked. This is a road that we used to

23 transport the wounded to Borovo Komerc, which had a shelter. After that

24 we took them to the Olajnica neighbourhood local shelter and to the

25 Ivolola Riber [phoen] school building shelter. There were plenty of those

Page 850

1 who could have been classified as slightly wounded. They were not

2 registered as patients of our hospital but I envisaged them to be part of

3 the evacuation.

4 Q. But they were not in the hospital itself in those days as

5 in-patients?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know when negotiations took place in Zagreb between

8 Mr. Hebrang and General Raseta? Is this something that Mr. Hebrang shared

9 with you?

10 A. Yes, he did. We spoke on the phone almost on a daily basis and he

11 said that there were continuing negotiations throughout that week,

12 virtually on a daily basis. There had been negotiations to do with

13 previous attempts and previous evacuations. They were having negotiations

14 about this last evacuation throughout that week.

15 Q. When do you think this round of negotiations drew to a close?

16 A. I believe on the 17th. It was a Sunday.

17 Q. If the Registrar could please show the witness the following

18 document: MFI 40, ID. The so-called Zagreb agreement. If we could

19 please have that displayed on the screen?

20 [In English] Marked for identification, 40. [Interpretation] Can

21 you see it? This is an English copy of the document. Do you think we

22 could have a B/C/S version displayed, Mr. Usher, if I can have your

23 assistance, please? [In English] The B/C/S version.

24 A. There must be a printed copy, I think.

25 Q. I'll provide one so you don't have to worry about that. Can you

Page 851

1 please look at paragraph 1 of the document and tell us what you see. When

2 did these negotiations take place and when was the agreement allegedly

3 signed? That's in paragraph 1?

4 A. Yes. I can see that. It says they met on the 18th of November

5 and reached an agreement and so on and so forth, "the following

6 agreement," it says. However this is not something that I can comment on,

7 given the fact that I wasn't present at this meeting. I know that on the

8 17th, the previous Sunday, I had been informed about an evacuation that

9 was to take place on the 18th in the morning hours. Now, as to when

10 exactly the agreement was signed, at what time and how, is something I

11 simply don't know.

12 Q. Can you please look at paragraph 4 of the agreement? You provided

13 information to Mr. Hebrang. This is something you told me a minute ago.

14 How come we see the following figures, 40 seriously ill and 360

15 casualties?

16 A. I really don't know. I gave the exact information that I gave to

17 you a while ago.

18 Q. Very well.

19 A. It says, 360 or so casualties of whom around a third will require

20 stretchers. There was a typo or some sort of misunderstanding that

21 occurred. That much is obvious.

22 Q. Can you please tell me, is there a single word in this document in

23 front of you referring to civilians? Do you see a single reference to

24 civilian persons or medical staff in this document?

25 A. Do you want me to read the entire document or what?

Page 852

1 Q. Not necessarily.

2 A. I'm telling you what I know had been agree. I'm telling you about

3 the information that I provided on that occasion. If you want me to go

4 through the document, I can. I can read it out loud.

5 Q. There is no need for you to do that. I'm just putting it to you

6 that you said, in your examination-in-chief, that Mr. Hebrang had told you

7 that the wounded and ill would be the first to be evacuated and that the

8 civilians would not be evacuated until the next day but you did not in

9 fact see the specific agreement in which there is no reference whatsoever

10 to anything like this. Let's move on. We shall no longer be requiring

11 this document, thank you.

12 Can we now please go back to the appeals that you wrote? Can the

13 witness please be shown the following document, the Exhibit 22? We had a

14 problem identifying this document because it had first been marked as 21.

15 The date on the appeal, on the call for help, is the 3rd of November.

16 That's right. Do you see the document on the screen in front of

17 you?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. You went through this document on examination-in-chief, and you

20 told us that all the information provided in these appeals were accurate

21 and based on information you had obtained from your own unit, your own

22 service.

23 A. Can we please just try to track down a printed copy? Because

24 the -- this is very difficult for me to read.

25 Q. Should be fine now. Can you follow now?

Page 853

1 A. Yes, I can, thank you.

2 Q. What exactly did you ascertain on that day about the number of

3 wounded and ill in your hospital? What does it say here?

4 A. It says 350.

5 Q. And that's accurate, isn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can the witness now please be shown Exhibit 23?

8 Would you please zoom in? Could it be enlarged? Can you see how

9 many patients you had on the following day in the hospital?

10 A. Yes, I can see that, 270.

11 Q. Can you please explain how come you released 70 or 80 patients in

12 one day?

13 A. As I told you, we released whomever we could and released them to

14 the local shelters. In the Borovo Komerc shelter we had an auxiliary

15 hospital running and also there were over 15 other shelters throughout

16 Vukovar and Borovo Naselje where we also sent those who were ready to be

17 released.

18 Q. Could the witness now be shown Exhibit 34, please? [In English]

19 Exhibit 34.

20 [Interpretation] This is your telephone message, as you have

21 described to us, dated on the 18th of November at 0850?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How many patients did you have then?

24 A. 600 patients, plus about 200 in the auxiliary hospital in Borovo

25 Komerc. I expected them to be evacuated at the same time as the people

Page 854

1 from the hospital.

2 Q. But you stated that there were 600 patients in the hospital.

3 That's what it says here.

4 A. What I had in mind was 400 patients in the hospital plus 200 in

5 Borovo Komerc which was an auxiliary hospital where there were also

6 patients.

7 Q. Could we now be shown Exhibit 37?

8 Could we please see the enlarged print?

9 This was composed on the same day, at 1540. This is your message.

10 So several hours later, how many wounded did you have?

11 A. I wrote down "over 500."

12 Q. Which could be 1.000, right?

13 A. Yes, it could be. But I wrote down here "over 500," because I had

14 in mind those who were in the hospital and those in the vicinity. That's

15 what I had in mind when I gave this figure.

16 Q. Did you perhaps have in mind those who were put on patient lists

17 even though they were not patients? And this is how this number came to

18 be so large, increased so rapidly?

19 A. No, I didn't have them in mind. Whom I had in mind were the

20 people in the shelters in the vicinity.

21 Q. So it is your claim that you did not manipulate with the figure of

22 the wounded and patients in your calls for help?

23 A. No, I did not manipulate.

24 Q. Could we go into private session briefly?

25 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.

Page 855

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Page 856











11 Page 856 redacted. Private session.















Page 857

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Dr. Njavro, on the 19th, in the afternoon, was he in the

7 hospital?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know that he also gave a statement to the OTP at the same

10 time you did?

11 A. I'm not aware of that.

12 Q. Will you agree with me that he is one of the persons who was very

13 actively involved in the hospital staff, was quite familiar with what was

14 happening at the hospital?

15 A. I suppose he was.

16 Q. He also claims that Sljivancanin arrived together with Borsinger

17 at the hospital?

18 A. He might have seen that when he arrived in the evening with

19 Borsinger, and I can tell you that in the afternoon I came out of the

20 hospital and (redacted) Dr. Njavro left the hospital and went

21 outside. They were inside in the basement. Therefore, they were unable

22 to know when he arrived there the first time, I think, because they were

23 in the basement.

24 Q. And you're claiming that the civilians were taken out in the

25 afternoon hours?

Page 858

1 A. Yes. It was still light upon my return from Negoslavci, it was

2 around 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon.

3 Q. All right. Let's just take it slowly. Who is Zeljka Zgonjanin?

4 A. Zeljka Zgonjanin is a lady who worked as a representative of the

5 Croatian Red Cross in Vukovar, the city of Vukovar.

6 Q. Did she compile a list of civilians?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Binazija Kolesar was your head nurse; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did Binazija Kolesar move around the hospital in those days or did

11 she mostly sit in the office?

12 A. She moved around.

13 Q. Did she tell you what she said to The Hague investigators when she

14 gave a statement?

15 A. No, she didn't.

16 Q. She claims that civilians were taken in the evening when it was

17 dark, that she approached civilians asking them where they were going, and

18 that civilians told her that Zeljka Zgonjanin had organised for them to be

19 transported in the trucks. So this is what your head nurse stated. Did

20 she have any reasons to lie to the investigators?

21 A. I don't think she had any reasons to lie but I believe that she

22 wasn't sufficiently informed.

23 Q. Binazija Kolesar even claims that she didn't see a single soldier,

24 JNA soldier or paramilitary soldier, taking any civilians out of the

25 hospital that night. At that point in time, you had already been taken to

Page 859

1 Negoslavci; is that right?

2 A. Binazija Kolesar was unable to see that because she was in the

3 hospital in the basement, and this was taking place in the courtyard of

4 the hospital. The door which was normally closed was open at the time,

5 and civilians who were in the hospital were being taken out.

6 Q. So how, then, was Binazija Kolesar, who was in the basement, able

7 to talk with civilians who were in the courtyard?

8 A. I don't know where she talked with them.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore?

10 MR. MOORE: I object to the line of questioning because my learned

11 friend Mr. Lukic is asking the witness to give opinion evidence by way of

12 explanation of what Kolesar saw or did not see. It's a -- the correct

13 approach in my submission is to ask questions in relation to what this

14 witness saw, ask Kolesar what she saw, if there is a disparity to draw the

15 Court's attention to it in due course, but how can this witness pass or

16 give evidence on something that she herself says that she does not know

17 and did not see? She is being asked to speculate.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I think, though, Mr. Moore, it is fair that the

19 witness have an opportunity to comment on any different account of the

20 facts by somebody such as the witness Kolesar, or the potential witness

21 Kolesar, in case there is some explanation that readily occurs to Dr.

22 Bosanac. So that in that respect, I disagree with your submission.

23 But it is also correct, Mr. Lukic, that you are going further than

24 that and you are trying to get this witness to give an explanation for

25 differences and she simply may not be in that position. And if that's the

Page 860

1 case, that's all she can say. She understands one set of facts. If

2 somebody else understands another, she cannot comment further. But I

3 think it's proper for you to draw to her attention the significant

4 differences as you see them and see whether she does have any explanation.

5 Thank you.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I put the

7 question based on the opinion of this witness that Binazija Kolesar was

8 unable to see these things, so this is what she stated herself based on

9 which I put this additional question as to -- the witness was able to see

10 that. However, I do accept your suggestions.

11 Q. At any rate, Mrs. Bosanac, you're aware of the fact that Binazija

12 Kolesar in the afternoon and in the evening, as head nurse, was in the

13 hospital building and was moving about the building. You are aware of

14 that, aren't you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And after all of these things that I put to you, all of these

17 claims, you still stand by your statement that the civilians were taken in

18 the afternoon, that Sljivancanin came in the afternoon, and Borsinger only

19 came in the evening?

20 A. Yes. I'm stating that because that was my experience.

21 Q. I understood it that you were shocked by the fact that civilians

22 were taken in the afternoon; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And why is it that you never mentioned that to Mr. Borsinger when

25 you talked to them in the evening?

Page 861

1 A. Why I didn't state that? I told him that we had been waiting for

2 two days.

3 Q. Yes. I heard you say that. But please don't repeat that. What

4 I'm asking you is: Why did you not ask him about this fact that shocked

5 you?

6 A. I'm telling you, at that point in time I was focused on the

7 evacuation of the hospital and I believed that to be a priority.

8 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that Mr. Sljivancanin, when he was in

9 the hospital, he toured the room, visited the room, where the Crisis Staff

10 was in the hospital? He wanted to see that room. Did he say anything

11 about that, and can you tell us how far that building is from the main

12 hospital building?

13 A. The Crisis Staff of the hospital does not exist as a separate

14 room. The Crisis Staff of the hospital held meetings in August in the old

15 administration building which was totally destroyed. At that point in

16 time, everything took place in the basement of the hospital in the room

17 where I was, which could fit only three to four people.

18 Q. So there isn't a building in the vicinity of the main hospital

19 building which housed the staff?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Could you please tell me this: Several days ago, when you

22 testified in your examination-in-chief, you said that only a part of the

23 medical documentation pertaining to the wounded was ready for evacuation

24 and that a large portion remained there and that it is now missing, as

25 though the hospital never operated in 1991. Is that right?

Page 862

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Please tell me, whose documentation were you able to prepare?

3 Documentation of which patients?

4 A. We prepared for evacuation all patients who were wounded and who

5 were in the hospital, and their documentation. However, that

6 documentation was not evacuated with us. Rather, it remained in the

7 hospital.

8 Q. Isn't it true that each patient had a bag with his or her

9 documentation on him?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Why, then, did you say several days ago that you'd only prepared

12 documents for a limited number of patients?

13 A. I said for those who had been wounded previously. I said we had

14 the documents in their entirety in two boxes for x-rays to be taken away

15 belonging to those hospitals who were no longer there.

16 Q. Did each and every patient about to be evacuated have their

17 medical files, their case histories on them?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you for clarifying that for us, doctor.

20 You testified today, and I believe my colleague Mr. Vasic asked

21 you the same question, that you were sending information on the numbers of

22 patients to Zagreb on virtually a daily basis. You said that on Friday,

23 didn't you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What were those reports made up of? What sort of information did

Page 863

1 they include? Did they have first and last names, that sort of thing?

2 A. First and last names, addresses, diagnosis, ethnic background, and

3 status as a police officer, civilian, soldier.

4 Q. When exactly did you begin to send those reports?

5 A. The 15th of August.

6 Q. On a daily basis?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You also testified on Friday that when you reached Zagreb and were

9 eventually free, you had occasion to look at some of those reports that

10 you had previously written. Did you in fact and where was that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Dating to which period?

13 A. August, September, October, all the way until the 6th of November.

14 Q. Did you continue to send reports after the 6th of November?

15 A. Yes. We typed them into the computer and we sent printed copies

16 too, but I never actually saw those arrive.

17 Q. Did you ask Mr. Hebrang or whoever was in charge of those

18 documents why the other reports from after the 6th of November were

19 missing?

20 A. They said that there had been a communication breakdown, the lines

21 broke down after that date and the reports were no longer able to reach

22 them via computer, and the same applied to the printed copies. Those that

23 were meant for the defence staff, for the Ministry of Internal Affairs,

24 and for the Red Cross. All those remained in the hospital. I was never

25 aware of anyone taking those files away. I think they all stayed back at

Page 864

1 the hospital.

2 Q. How were printed copies forwarded, by fax?

3 A. Yes, by fax.

4 Q. There is not a single printed copy at the health ministry dated

5 after the 6th of November, but the appeals are there?

6 A. Yes. The appeals are there because those documents were preserved

7 by some ladies working for the European Commission Monitoring Mission and

8 they later gave me these reports when I was in Zagreb.

9 Q. What about the printed copies that were sent after the 6th of

10 November? Those were destroyed, weren't they?

11 A. I can tell you what I know about the fate of those documents. And

12 at this point, I am no longer to tell you anything else. Maybe there

13 should be a court order sent to one of these institutions. The defence

14 ministry, Ministry of Internal Affairs or the Croatian Red Cross, to have

15 a look and see if they can track down any of those.

16 Q. Did you in fact ever request from the International Red Cross the

17 specific lists that you gave to Borsinger on the 18th? Did you ever

18 request that?

19 A. We requested many things over the years, but the only thing that

20 we were able to obtain was the list of people who were eventually

21 evacuated on those two days. 120 on the 20th of November and another 54

22 wounded on the next day, a total of 174 wounded. We have lists.

23 Q. We know all these things.

24 A. How do I know whether you know about these things? We haven't

25 spoken about these things so far.

Page 865

1 Q. I believe the Prosecutor might be asking these questions on

2 re-examination because this needs clarifying but what I want to know for

3 the time being is whether, on the 17th or the 18th, you sent any printed

4 reports to Zagreb about the numbers of wounded, sick, and so forth?

5 A. I said that on those days, those three days I was no longer able

6 to fax or phone any messages. I just used the phone link to give them the

7 total of wounded persons at the hospital.

8 Q. Would you agree with me if I put it to you that those reports

9 containing the names of the wounded and ill, even if they in fact existed,

10 would not be convenient for your authorities because they would show the

11 exact numbers of those wounded and ill who ended up in Ovcara?

12 A. You're not right in saying that because I have 97 wounded people

13 who were registered at Ovcara and I have the list on me in case you're

14 interested.

15 Q. You identified those persons as wounded based on the bandages they

16 wore or what?

17 A. No. Based on our database, the database that we had in our

18 computer.

19 Q. At the Zagreb-based health ministry?

20 A. In addition to which I have to state the following. I'm not sure

21 if you're familiar with this. As for the identification of those killed

22 or executed at Ovcara, was conducted by the American -- by an American

23 forensic team and their post-mortems contain all of the conclusions and

24 findings that they reached. There is no doubt about the fact that

25 findings that they reached. There is no doubt about the fact that these

Page 866

1 people were wounded and ill, the people that we are talking about now.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 Q. I'll now be asking you a couple of questions about -- just a

4 minute, please.

5 Can you just please tell me: Where was this database on patients

6 that you kept? Was it in the Vukovar Hospital or in Zagreb and where in

7 Zagreb?

8 A. In the Vukovar Hospital.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. You mean now or back in 1991?

11 Q. In 1991.

12 A. In 1991, it was in our computer in the Vukovar Hospital and it was

13 forwarded to the medical headquarters of the health ministry in Zagreb.

14 Q. On the 6th of November?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. What about the computer that you had in the hospital?

17 Where exactly did you keep this database?

18 A. I think it was later taken to Belgrade. I saw it in the press

19 later on, in a newspaper called Ilustrovana Politika. One of the JNA

20 soldiers were in fact using that computer. There was a photograph in

21 December 1991 that I remember looking at.

22 Q. Where was the shelter of the Crisis Staff in the hospital?

23 A. There was no such thing as a Crisis Staff shelter. The Crisis

24 Staff was not inside a shelter. The only persons inside the shelter were

25 those seriously wounded, women, and children.

Page 867

1 Q. I would like to ask you about your conversation with

2 Mr. Sljivancanin in Negoslavci on the evening of the 19th. How long did

3 that interrogation last, in your estimate, in Negoslavci?

4 A. About half an hour, up to 40 minutes, I reckon.

5 Q. How many people were there at the time?

6 A. There was this person, I'm not sure what his name was. I refer to

7 him as captain in my statement because I heard him called that in

8 Mitrovica. Sasa he was there, Major Sljivancanin, and myself.

9 Q. The three of you?

10 A. Yes, precisely.

11 Q. Please try to think back clearly and tell me exactly whether you

12 remember if during your interrogation at Negoslavci a camcorder was on all

13 the time and whether the whole interview was in fact recorded. Is this

14 something you remember?

15 A. No.

16 Q. "No," does that mean you don't remember or you're actually certain

17 that no camcorder was there?

18 A. I don't remember. I'm quite sure I was recorded at the barracks

19 but not in Negoslavci. I don't think there was one.

20 Q. Do you remember that on that occasion, you told the then

21 Major Sljivancanin that on the last day a large number of National Guards

22 Corps members arrived in the hospital and that you opposed this, that you

23 opposed them entering the hospital?

24 A. I said that a large number of civilians had arrived, and this was

25 something that I had opposed.

Page 868

1 Q. Why oppose civilians being there?

2 A. Because the hospital was overcrowded as it was with wounded and

3 ill. We had no running water, no electricity. They came. They were

4 there for two days just squatting around. We had nothing but tea to give

5 children to drink.

6 Q. So that was your reason?

7 A. Yes, precisely.

8 Q. Tell me about the morning of the 20th, the 20th of November when

9 you were returned to the hospital from Negoslavci. Prior to the meeting

10 at the plaster room, do you remember that you were with Sljivancanin and

11 Dr. Ivezic, another Colonel in your office, the two of them were alone

12 with you at the beginning?

13 A. No, I don't remember that.

14 Q. You don't remember?

15 A. There was an officer, carrying a rifle, who was in the room

16 throughout. He was with me throughout. He answered the phone and he

17 wouldn't allow me to answer the phone myself.

18 Q. Yes, we know that. But what about the morning?

19 A. I was returned at about 6.30 in the morning and there was one man

20 there with me.

21 Q. Do you remember that this doctor, Colonel, from the military --

22 the medical academy tell you personally that the patients had to be

23 brought in and examined?

24 A. No. I don't remember that. I just remember that Sljivancanin

25 told me that I was no longer in charge of the hospital, that I should

Page 869

1 convene all of my staff in the plaster room, so-called plaster room.

2 That's all I remember.

3 Q. Would I be wrong in saying that you yourself in fact proposed that

4 this meeting take place, the meeting with the medical staff and the

5 doctors who arrived from the military medical academy to deal with these

6 medical examinations would I be wrong in saying that?

7 A. Major Sljivancanin requested that we find the biggest room

8 possible in which we could meet. I told him that the best place to meet

9 was the so-called plaster room because that was the only vacant empty room

10 or hall inside the whole hospital.

11 Q. What about this doctor you said was with him then. You said there

12 were about six or seven persons there, that's what you said isn't it?

13 A. Yes that's what I saw in the plaster room when I came. They were

14 just standing there.

15 Q. Do you remember whether any of them said to set up mixed teams of

16 doctors who would then examine patients? Do you remember anything about

17 that?

18 A. No. This is not something that I heard at the time.

19 Q. There were six or seven doctors who arrived in the plaster room

20 along with Major Sljivancanin. You did say that, didn't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You were taken from the plaster room back to your office, I

23 expect, weren't you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember that you talked with Mr. Sljivancanin alone at

Page 870

1 this point in time?

2 A. No. I just know that there was that one man there who was

3 watching me and keeping me from answering the phone myself.

4 Q. You don't remember you actually asked Sljivancanin what would

5 become of you now?

6 A. No. What do you mean by that?

7 Q. Whether you would be allowed to go back to your family in Zagreb.

8 A. No. I believed at the time that the hospital would be evacuated,

9 that I would remain and go to Borovo Komerc in order to help with

10 evacuating the wounded and ill from Komerc.

11 Q. Do you remember Sljivancanin asking you about an officer named

12 Rajko Tomic and that, in Sljivancanin's presence, you made a phone call to

13 Zagreb to ask about this Rajko Tomic, do you remember that?

14 A. No. I read about this in Sljivancanin's book but it's not

15 something that I remember happening.

16 Q. Do you remember that in your presence he called someone on that

17 same phone asking them what to do with you? You don't remember that?

18 A. No, I don't.

19 Q. Very well. I would like to hear about some details. I find this

20 very interesting. Can you please describe this interrogation in the

21 barracks basement on the evening of the 20th? Who brought you there, how

22 long were you there for, what did you talk about, and who exactly was

23 there?

24 A. I spent the whole day in the barracks with Marin Vidic in a first

25 floor room. The man who brought us there came back at about 6.00 in the

Page 871

1 afternoon, late in the afternoon. He said the situation had changed, the

2 major was facing some sort of difficulty, the evacuation had been

3 completed, and that we will to stay there and spend the night. He took us

4 to a different room with many beds in it, and we just sat down, each of us

5 on one bed and we were being guarded throughout, watched throughout.

6 At about 10.00 in the evening a soldier came into the room and

7 told me to follow him. Marin also stood up to follow but he told him to

8 stay put and took me downstairs. I think it was the ground floor that he

9 took me to but I'm not certain.

10 There were several officers waiting there, wearing camouflage

11 uniforms. There was one lady, also wearing a camouflage uniform. They

12 had cameras there, camcorders, and they asked me whether I agreed to give

13 a statement. I asked what sort of statement? They said well, about the

14 situation at the hospital. I said I had nothing against that. And

15 eventually I gave some sort of a statement there, I'm not sure how long it

16 took. It may have taken about 15 minutes, between 10 and 15 minutes. The

17 lady spoke to me in such a way that I felt a certain amount of hostility.

18 They all appeared to be angry with me. Her son had been a soldier. He

19 was in the barracks. And the barracks came under fire. I remember the

20 details of that conversation. I was then taken outside the barracks in a

21 Black Maria paddy wagon, the sort of vehicle they use to transport

22 prisoners.

23 Q. Thank you very much. We heard about this already. Can we now

24 please go through the statement that the witness gave at the Sremska

25 Mitrovica prison? I believe Mr. Borovic showed her a portion of the

Page 872

1 statement some days ago. This is 3D000001. That's the B/C/S. And 3 D

2 00-0126 for the English. Both versions have been scanned and are in the

3 E-Court system. In order to expedite proceedings, I prepared a hard copy

4 for Mrs. Bosanac. So if Mr. Usher could please assist me with this. We

5 would like to have there displayed on the screen but maybe she will find

6 it handier to actually use a hard copy. This is both the English version

7 and the B/C/S.

8 Can we please have the following page displayed in E-Court,

9 3D00/0110. That's for the B/C/S. For the English, 3D000181. [In

10 English] English version.

11 [Interpretation] Mrs. Bosanac, the green marker there should help

12 you to find the right page. This is something that I prepared for you.

13 If you could please turn up that particular page, the first that is marked

14 in green. It says 345 at the top corner, the last three numbers, doesn't

15 it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you please slowly read passage two. It starts with the words

18 "Colonel Branko."

19 A. To Colonel Branko who conducted an interview with me and analysed

20 what had happened, I wish to thank him sincerely, I believe it reads, for

21 his humane treatment and giving me hope that there were peace loving or

22 peace seeking people in the JNA, and people who want a peaceful

23 coexistence of all the peoples in it these areas. He treated me in a fair

24 manner both as a human being and as a doctor. Statement given by Vesna

25 Bosanac, the 17th -- the 7th of November 1991. Sremska Mitrovica.

Page 873

1 Q. Let us clarify, please. Colonel Branko was the man who

2 interrogated you at Sremska Mitrovica?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I can see here that this statement is quite voluminous. Can you

5 tell me how long the interrogation or interview lasted?

6 A. When I arrived in Mitrovica on the 21st of November, the date here

7 is wrong. Obviously wrong. It says the 7th of November. It wasn't then.

8 It was when I was leaving Mitrovica and perhaps in haste I wrote the date

9 inaccurately. But the interview lasted until the 11th of November which

10 means about three weeks.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we be shown page 3D000136?

12 That's the English version. B/C/S version is 3D000021.

13 MR. MOORE: Would it be possible for my learned friend to call out

14 the page number at the bottom of the English translation? I find that

15 sometimes easier to find. If it's possible. Thank you very much.

16 MR. LUKIC: English version is page 11.

17 MR. MOORE: Thank you.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Take the previous portion, Mrs. Bosanac. Take a look at what is

20 marked in red and please refer to that page. The last three digits are

21 256; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you please read out slowly the second paragraph?

24 A. You mean "in previous days"? "In previous days Dr. Njavro toured

25 the ill and selected the wounded for convoy in accordance with his

Page 874

1 criteria among whom there were the most numerous were guards and civilians

2 and, among them, was also a soldier of JNA Zivkovic, Ivan, who surrendered

3 after being wounded."

4 Q. And when my colleague and I asked you about Ivan Zivkovic, you

5 told us that you'd never heard that name?

6 A. Yes. But you have to bear in mind that I wrote this statement

7 after the fall of Vukovar and that in the following 14 years, I never gave

8 a thought to this man.

9 Q. In that case, if you have any doubts, it's better for you to say

10 you don't know than to state something firmly.

11 A. Well, you asked me whether I knew Ivan Zivkovic and the name

12 didn't sound familiar. I wrote this 14 years ago, and I have no

13 recollection of this name.

14 Q. Well, do you have recollection now?

15 A. Well, I just read this, and of course I know that I wrote this

16 down at the time, but in the meantime I forgot the name. Even now, I

17 cannot assign a face to this name.

18 Q. Would you please tell Their Honours who Ivica Arbanas was?

19 A. Ivica Arbanas at the time, during the war, had a position -- I'm

20 not sure what his position was, but he frequently came to the hospital to

21 visit some wounded people. This is how his name is familiar to me.

22 Q. Did he do something in the police force?

23 A. He was not a policeman, not in the sense of a policeman wearing a

24 police uniform. He had a camouflage uniform similar to the one worn by

25 the members of the National Guards Corps.

Page 875

1 Q. And at the time, you knew that Arbanas wanted to keep Ivan

2 Zivkovic there as a source of information?

3 A. That's what I thought at the time but I couldn't be sure whether I

4 saw this myself or this is something that he had told me.

5 Q. If I were to refresh your memory and tell you this: Do you

6 remember that this soldier, Ivan Zivkovic, was supposed to be taken to

7 Zagreb against his will? I assume that they wanted to interrogate him

8 there. Do you know anything about that?

9 A. No. I really was not involved in compiling that list. Some

10 civilians came to inquire whether they could join the convoy and were told

11 no, that only the wounded could go with the convoy.

12 Q. Could you please turn the next page? It's the same page for the

13 English version?

14 JUDGE PARKER: I think we might pause at this moment before you go

15 to the next page.

16 We will have a break now until just after a quarter to 4.00 and

17 resume then.

18 --- Break taken at 3.27 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 3.50 p.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Let us continue examining this document. I think that we are now

23 on the page with the last three digits, 257?

24 A. Yes?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And for my learned from the

Page 876

1 Prosecution, we are still focusing on page 11 of the English translation.

2 This first passage is quite a lengthy one and there is a sentence in it

3 starting with the following words, "one of the members of the European

4 mission ..." Would you please read that out.

5 A. "One of the members of the European mission noticed that in the

6 hospital, and in front of the hospital," I suppose that's what it says,

7 "there are a lot of Croatian soldiers." And then I replied that "in

8 addition to security personnel, there was no one else except for those who

9 were curious, the wounded, the family, those who were leaving."

10 Q. In order to avoid any confusion, this pertains to the part of the

11 statement dealing with the October evacuation. That part of your

12 statement. At least that's how it looks to me. It pertains to the 18th

13 of October 1991. Do you remember the dialogue you had with the

14 representative of the European Monitoring Mission? That's how you called

15 that person, although it must have been a person from Medecins Sans

16 Frontieres. Would you please take a look at that page again.

17 A. Yes. I have looked at it.

18 Q. Do you remember that anyone from those NGOs or representatives of

19 international organisations escorting the convoy, did any of them notice

20 that there were a lot of soldiers in the hospital or around the hospital?

21 Do you remember that detail?

22 A. I can't remember that detail now. When I wrote this down it was

23 probably something that was discussed. I remember that Mladen Jasreb

24 [phoen] told me that once European monitors arrive, I should try and bring

25 them to the municipal building to see Marin Vidic. I asked them when they

Page 877

1 arrived and they said that they couldn't go anywhere else because they

2 were there in order to deal with evacuation, and then Marin Vidic and

3 another person came to the hospital to talk to them. I did not

4 participate in that conversation. I don't know what they talked about.

5 But I know that in addition to the security personnel, there were no other

6 soldiers in the hospital.

7 Q. So that could not have been described as a lot of soldiers?

8 A. No. And I really don't know what that conversation pertained to.

9 I can't remember.

10 Q. All right. Let us conclude with these interrogations you were

11 subjected to in Sremska Mitrovica, and what I put to you about the

12 attitude that you had towards Colonel Branko. Was this statement taken

13 under coercion? Did you put in that statement anything that wasn't true,

14 that was inaccurate? Do you remember that?

15 A. That entire situation in the prison in Sremska Mitrovica put me

16 under huge pressure. The way I arrived there, the way I was admitted in

17 there, the way I spent the first night in jail, those were very difficult,

18 very bad conditions and, for me, it was a huge psychological shock, and an

19 enormous pressure that I was put under. Once I arrived in the room with

20 other women, when I was not alone any more, I went to those interrogations

21 every day. In those interviews Colonel Branko treated me decently. The

22 statement was not phrased precisely as I wanted to phrase it. I wanted to

23 describe accurately the situation in Vukovar. However, he demanded that I

24 write that in accordance with the instructions and questions he put to me.

25 He told me not to write about the number of shells, the shooting, which I

Page 878

1 wanted to describe. He told me to leave that for later. Therefore, this

2 statement was guided, guided by Colonel Branko, and I have to say that I

3 experienced all kinds of things in that prison. I assume that you're not

4 interested in that.

5 When I was supposed to leave, or rather when I was transferred to

6 Zagreb -- to Belgrade, the warden of the prison came suddenly --

7 Q. That's not part of my question.

8 A. Just a second. You asked me under what conditions I gave that

9 statement and whether the statement was true. So I have to answer. So

10 Colonel Branko asked me whether I could write in one sentence how he

11 treated me. I wrote that down at that point in time, describing my

12 feelings, and I was delighted because I was leaving the place. As for the

13 other facts, I can't say specifically because I tried to write down things

14 as I remembered them. The only thing that I wrote down inaccurately - and

15 I remember it to this day - had to do with the circumstances surrounding

16 my older son Damir. I stated there that he had left Vukovar earlier

17 because he had been wounded and he was indeed wounded but he didn't leave

18 earlier. In fact he didn't leave until the 17th in the evening. And as

19 far as I remember, that was the only untrue item I put in in there. At

20 the time I didn't know where my husband was, what had happened to him,

21 what kind of complications he would face because of all that.

22 MR. LUKIC: I would like to tender this document into evidence.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore? Are you rising?

24 MR. MOORE: No objection to that course.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I thought I saw you trying to get to

Page 879

1 your feet.

2 That will be received in evidence, Mr. Lukic.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 45, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I don't have many more questions left. And before I turn to

7 another topic, I would like you to answer some questions concerning which

8 my client gave me instructions in the course of the break.

9 I asked you about the shelter of the hospital Crisis Staff and you

10 gave me your answer. I have another question related to that. In the

11 vicinity of the hospital, was there a shelter of the Crisis Staff of the

12 Vukovar defence and Mr. Mile Dedakovic?

13 A. I've already stated that that shelter was located in the yard of

14 the building housing the Secretariat for National Defence, which is about

15 1 kilometre from the hospital, exactly across from the museum of Count

16 Jelovac [phoen].

17 Q. So you are claiming that there was no shelter of the Crisis Staff

18 of Mr. Mile Dedakovic in the makeshift housing 50 metres from the

19 hospital?

20 A. No. There wasn't. And in addition to that, there were no --

21 there was no makeshift housing there either.

22 Q. Do you know when were surgeon Jovic and the other two soldiers

23 taken out of the hospital? When did they leave hospital?

24 A. I don't know that. All I know is that that afternoon, I saw in

25 the 19th of November from my office, I saw Sasa talking to some soldiers

Page 880

1 near the door. Then I called out to him, towed him to go back to his room

2 and to await the ICRC evacuation there. He said he would wait. But later

3 I didn't see him. So I don't know when he left.

4 Q. Do you remember by any chance whether Mr. Sljivancanin asked you

5 to see surgeon Jovic and the soldiers. Did he ask you whether he talked

6 to you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did he not ask for that or do you not remember?

9 A. I don't remember him asking that. And had he asked for that I

10 would have sent somebody to fetch him just as I asked somebody to go fetch

11 the doctor that he asked for.

12 Q. Well, that's precisely what I'm interested in. When did he ask

13 you to get in touch with Mrs. Gordana Mandic?

14 A. In the evening after the conversation with the ICRC. That could

15 have been at around 8.00.

16 Q. Evening?

17 A. Yes. Before I was taken to Negoslavci, or perhaps at around 9.00.

18 Q. Let us just correct the name in the transcript. The lady's name

19 is Gordana Antic, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell me who Ante Aric is, what did he do, how he ended up

22 in your office and how did he come to be taken out of the barracks

23 together with you and Dr. Njavro?

24 A. He was not taken out of the barracks. Ante Aric was a male nurse,

25 and he came there to assist us, together with the doctors who arrived in

Page 881

1 late September of 1991. He was a male nurse. I don't know when he was

2 taken out of the hospital and where to, or, rather, later in a

3 conversation with him I heard that he had been taken to Negoslavci and

4 that he even saw some wounded in the basement of a private house. I saw

5 him when I was taken out of the barracks, when I was put in a Black Maria

6 when I entered that vehicle, Dr. Njavro and Ante Aric were already there.

7 Q. In Negoslavci after that conversation with Sljivancanin, when you

8 were taken to this school where the temporary house -- temporary hospital

9 was housed, were you bound?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did anybody mistreat you on that occasion?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you remember whether you were taken there in the presence of

14 JNA colonel who was the head of that hospital? Does the last name

15 Jovanovic mean anything to you?

16 A. No, I don't remember. None of those people introduced themselves

17 or mentioned their names. The only person who did introduce himself was

18 Colonel Mrksic when I first arrived in Negoslavci. None of the other

19 people I had contacts with introduced themselves. As for Veselin

20 Sljivancanin, I realised it was him only when I was in prison when I saw

21 in a magazine his photograph and a statement by him stating that he had

22 liberated Vukovar. This is when I recognised him as Veselin Sljivancanin.

23 Q. Just to wrap this up I'll ask you a couple of questions. When you

24 testified in chief, you said, when talking about the day of the

25 evacuation, you had been waiting for the European monitors to arrive. You

Page 882

1 were under the impression that they were in a position to conduct the

2 evacuation in an effective way; isn't that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But you didn't see them at that point; you only saw them later on

5 in the prison at Mitrovica?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You've been saying all these days that about 400 to 450 wounded

8 were supposed to be evacuated, some seriously, some slightly wounded;

9 isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If I were to tell you that on that day, 82 seriously wounded

12 persons and 263 slightly wounded persons were evacuated, would you say

13 that I'm wrong? Just say yes or no, please?

14 A. Yes, you are wrong.

15 Q. Would I be wrong in saying that there remained another 52 wounded

16 who were evacuated on the following day?

17 A. The exact number is 54.

18 Q. Okay. So I'm wrong. Would I be wrong in saying that 110 wounded

19 decided to go back to Serbia?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. This information was provided by the European Monitoring Mission

22 who actually attended the evacuation on the 20th of November?

23 A. The problem is people had been taken to Ovcara before the monitors

24 arrived.

25 Q. Please allow me to ask the question, if you will.

Page 883

1 Do you actually believe that this information is accurate?

2 JUDGE PARKER: That was an observation that ought to be heard.

3 You have said what you want to say about the figure, have you,

4 Dr. Bosanac?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

7 Thank you, Mr. Lukic. I was just concerned you may have stopped

8 the witness before she finished.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My final question is:

10 Q. Does the witness place any trust in the European Monitoring

11 Mission whom she had awaited so in those days?

12 A. Of course, but I must say this again: They did not arrive at the

13 Vukovar Hospital in time and for this reason, their information is not

14 accurate.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

16 This concludes my cross investigation.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

18 Doctor, I have been informed that you now no longer need to see

19 the transcript of last Friday any further; is that correct?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct. I have the

21 transcript in my possession. I have found out in the meantime that they

22 were taken off the Internet.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. So there is nothing you want to clarify

24 about your evidence on Friday?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing further.

Page 884

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. In that event, Mr. Moore, we can turn

2 to you.

3 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much indeed.

4 Re-examined by Mr. Moore:

5 Q. Doctor, I have a few very questions for you but may I deal with

6 the first question? You were asked about the statement that was compiled

7 and whether in actual fact you had signed it. Would you be kind enough,

8 please, to look at the following document and confirm whether it is your

9 signature on each and every page?

10 I wonder if perhaps that could be done, please.

11 The Court may remember that we went through the various details

12 because the signature was missing because it was an abstract from the

13 statement itself.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That's page 1. Can we just continue the process, please?

16 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

17 This is Mira Medic's signature.

18 Q. Would you be kind enough just to be shown the original document,

19 please? It's sitting to your right.

20 MR. MOORE: I'm sure the doctor can be handed the document. It

21 doesn't have to --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


24 Q. And are all those the pages that you've identified, doctor?

25 A. Yes.

Page 885

1 Q. Thank you very much. Now I'd like you, please, or perhaps the

2 Court Usher would be kind enough to turn to what I will call the English

3 version, which you have there because it is in English, and go to the page

4 4 of 13, because you were asked questions about that. The bottom

5 right-hand corner, 4 of 13?

6 JUDGE PARKER: Can it be clarified for the claim what document it

7 is that we are dealing with, please, Mr. Moore?

8 MR. MOORE: This was the document that was cross-examined upon,

9 whether in actual fact it was an English original, the process that was

10 undertaken, because there was a discrepancy on what I will call page 4 of

11 13, whether in actual fact it was by November of 1991 or on November of

12 1991, if my memory serves me correctly.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Was that document marked identification?

14 MR. MOORE: It was certainly cross-examined on and that topic was

15 cross-examined on --


17 MR. MOORE: -- because there was a discrepancy between the Croatian

18 and the Serbian translation, if I can put it in simplistic terms for me.

19 It may well be that it was marked for identification but I'm absolutely

20 certain that it was cross-examined on, on that topic. And there was

21 questions --

22 JUDGE PARKER: No question of that. We are just trying to

23 identify the document.

24 MR. MOORE: Yes.

25 JUDGE PARKER: If it was marked, are you able to indicate the

Page 886

1 number?

2 MR. MOORE: From my recollection, it wasn't marked as an exhibit

3 per se.


5 MR. MOORE: It was marked or it wasn't marked but the issue was --

6 well, twofold, one, was it signed --

7 JUDGE PARKER: We understand that. Just we want to know whether

8 it is a document that is in the system marked for identification or not.

9 MR. MOORE: Not that I'm aware of, no.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. Thank you. So this is a fresh

11 document.

12 MR. MOORE: Yes. It was the document cross-examined upon. Thank

13 you very much.

14 Could we turn, please, then to the area or the page where

15 Dr. Bosanac was cross-examined on? That was 4 of 13. Are we able using

16 our splendid technology to highlight the second paragraph of that, please,

17 of the original document, which is in English? And, in English, is it

18 right that the actual paragraph starts, "By November 1991"? The point was

19 more for clarification. I think it was left really pending to assist the

20 Court. There was a request for the original which we have now obtained.

21 I'm entirely in the Court's hand in relation to that. I see no reason it

22 should be made an exhibit but if issue is going to be taken on later

23 proceedings then I would ask it be made an exhibit for clarification. I'm

24 entirely in my learned friends' hands in relation to that.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Can you identify the document by its date, and its

Page 887

1 nature for the record?

2 MR. MOORE: Yes, I can. It is the statement of Dr. Vesna Bosanac.

3 It is dated, date of interviews are the 19th and 20th of June 1995 and the

4 21st and 23rd of July 1995. My hand --

5 JUDGE PARKER: To whom?

6 MR. MOORE: I beg your pardon?

7 JUDGE PARKER: To whom was the statement made?

8 MR. MOORE: The statement was compiled with the assistance of two

9 interpreters, one is a lady called Ivanka Anicic who apparently translated

10 questions in English to Croatian and Croatian answers into English. That

11 is on the 19th and 20th of June 1995. And then Mira Medic reading the

12 English translation into Croatian to the witness on the 21st and 23rd of

13 June. And the interpreter's certification, if my numbering is correct,

14 would be 00327823.

15 JUDGE PARKER: And I'm trying to get on to the record to whom the

16 statement was made. Is it an interviewer by the OTP?

17 MR. MOORE: It is a statement compiled for the OTP and, as I

18 say --

19 JUDGE PARKER: And it was the subject of cross-examination, I

20 think, by Mr. Borovic.

21 MR. MOORE: It was. And he specifically dealt with "by November"

22 or "on November." As I say, page 413. I wouldn't seek to make it an

23 exhibit unless there was some issue in relation to that point.

24 JUDGE PARKER: I would suggest that the document be marked for

25 identification.

Page 888

1 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

2 THE REGISTRAR: The document number will be 46.

3 MR. MOORE: I wonder perhaps if we -- if that is the case, for my

4 part, OTP would like to retain the original unless there is any objection

5 to that course, and a photocopy with the signatures being used for the

6 Court. If, however, the Court wants the original, of course the Court

7 must have that.

8 JUDGE PARKER: I would suggest that once you've allowed the

9 members of the Defence teams to sack the original, that unless there is

10 any particular objection, that a photocopy version might become the

11 exhibit.

12 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. Perhaps while that's being done,

13 I can continue in re-examination, with the Court's leave.

14 Q. Doctor, you were asked about your participation as a doctor in the

15 Vukovar Hospital. Throughout the period, and I will say September,

16 October, and November, did you perform any operations on any patient?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Perhaps for completeness, if we go back, August and July, did you

19 at any time perform operations on any patient in those months?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you. May we deal, then, please, with what I will call JNA

22 soldiers being in a separate room? You're aware of the questions from the

23 Defence on that topic. Why was it JNA soldiers were kept in a separate

24 room in the hospital?

25 A. Because at the time when they arrived in the hospital, as wounded

Page 889

1 persons, the hospital was already overflowing with both wounded and

2 civilians. Dr. Njavro and I believed it was a good thing to keep them

3 apart so that Dr. Njavro could go and visit them. They were easily

4 accessible. We believed that in this way they would not be facing any

5 additional problems, such as being taunted by other patients.

6 Q. Thank you. May we move on to the level of treatment of patients?

7 There has been a suggestion that patients' treatment or perhaps lack of

8 treatment was determined by ethnicity, namely that these soldiers and

9 others of that same ethnic background or persuasion received lesser

10 treatment. Is that correct or not?

11 A. It's not correct. I felt taunted myself when I was asked those

12 questions because that is just not true.

13 Q. What were the principles that guided you as a doctor in the

14 Vukovar Hospital over September, October, November, when we deal about

15 treatment?

16 A. I complied with all the professional guidelines and professional

17 code of ethics. Those were the only guidelines that I followed, namely to

18 help everyone who was sick or wounded and do the best job possible under

19 the circumstances.

20 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like you to be shown what I believe to

21 be a Defence Exhibit, and I believe it to be Exhibit 43. It is a ruling

22 apparently at the military court in Belgrade. Would you be kind enough to

23 be shown that document?

24 JUDGE PARKER: It is not an exhibit, Mr. Moore. It's marked for

25 identification as 43, I believe.

Page 890

1 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much indeed.

2 Q. Now, doctor, have you got what I will call the little blue folder?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And would you --

5 A. Or, rather, I don't, I'm sorry, a blue folder.

6 Q. I'm hoping you've got the same colour as I have. Would you be

7 kind enough to go to the very last divider which is a lime green?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And if you look at the first document after that, on the top

10 right-hand corner, there seems to be page 270, 271, and then 272.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I can't tell exactly what page we are referring to in that

13 translation but you are asked and have been asked about an incident in the

14 first half of November 1991, the wounded soldier Boban Gacic. Have you

15 found that?

16 A. I need to find it first. Yes. I've got it now.

17 Q. I think it's at the top of page 271. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Now, you see what's particularised there,

20 that he was brought to the hospital where he was operated upon. I won't

21 go into the details. Do you have any recollection of such a person being

22 brought to the hospital?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And can you remember exactly what his injuries were?

25 A. I can't remember specifically. But I heard from my colleagues

Page 891

1 that he had been wounded and that as they were dressing his wounds, they

2 noticed that this was an incipient case of gaseous gangrene.

3 Q. This is the first half of November. I'm not going to go into your

4 faxes that you were sent or that you sent. Were you able or did you have

5 the medication at that time to deal with gangrene gas?

6 A. We had crystal penicillin at the time which we administered in

7 booster doses more often than not. I state with full responsibility that

8 all the medicines that we had in our possession were duly administered and

9 all the steps were taken to save that soldier's life. I even remember my

10 colleagues talking about what a wonderful lad he was. They even became

11 friends and they felt sorry that he ended up involved in this war. I know

12 that when he eventually died, everybody was greatly saddened.

13 Q. Thank you very much. The second soldier that's referred to is the

14 13th of November, the following paragraph. That is a soldier called Ivica

15 Nestorovic. Have you found that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, here again it's alleged that you were informed about this

18 young man but that you apparently denied him access to the hospital. Can

19 you remember the circumstances in relation to that?

20 A. This is certainly not true. At this point in time, I no longer

21 had any phone communication or any other form of communication with Borovo

22 Komerc. I only heard later, once I'd been released from prison and

23 reached Zagreb, about this patient, that he had been brought in, that he

24 was seriously wounded, and that they weren't able to operate. But that

25 they provided whatever assistance they could, whatever they had, despite

Page 892

1 which he died. I remember this because Colonel Branko kept asking me

2 about these soldiers and he kept referring to Ivica Nestorovic who at the

3 time I was not able to recall. It was later when I got to Zagreb that I

4 heard about this person having been brought to Komerc. There was a

5 makeshift hospital there as we know and some nurses were there. But I

6 can't say that I recollect him being brought into the hospital, nor was I

7 ever informed of his presence.

8 Likewise, I need to add the following, now that we are talking

9 about this subject matter. When cross-examining, counsel asked me if I

10 knew who Dr. Kovacic was. I confirmed that I did but later I went back to

11 this document and realised that the reference is probably not to the

12 Dr. Kovacic I know but most likely to a different person. There is a

13 reference here to Dr. Kuzmanovic's statement about the fact that Dr.

14 Bosanac and Dr. Kovacic had been informed about this statement. The

15 Dr. Kovacic I know was neither at Komerc nor at the hospital. Therefore,

16 I don't think the reference is to the same doctor. And I can say nothing

17 further about it. All I can say with certainty is that I was not

18 informed.

19 Q. Thank you. Finally I have one last question. You were asked by

20 my learned friend Mr. Lukic about various lists and numbers, and you

21 replied that you had a list of 97 people who were registered as wounded

22 and subsequently killed in Ovcara. Do you still have that list or do you

23 have that list with you now?

24 A. I still have it.

25 Q. Do you have it in court with you?

Page 893

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Before we refer to it, how was the list compiled?

3 A. I received from the ministry, from the organisation of the

4 defenders and mutual solidarity, and I had requested from the missing

5 persons administration it in relation to Colonel Ivan Grujic that on the

6 20th of December 2005, which is when you visited Vukovar, to provide an

7 accurate list, a last one, of persons identified from the mass grave at

8 Ovcara. I realised that you had a list entitled missing persons. And I

9 know that as time goes by, every Monday, more and more bodies are

10 identified because this is an ongoing process. I requested this and asked

11 them to send me a document which I intend to leave in the possession of

12 the Tribunal. There is an attachment specifying the names of 192 persons

13 whose bodies have been identified as executed at Ovcara. At this point I

14 went back to our database, the one that we have discussed. I tracked down

15 names of these same persons and we have managed to come up with a list

16 containing the first and last names of 97 persons. This is the list that

17 we discussed, and I have brought it along with me for my testimony.

18 Q. Would you be kind enough, please, to pass it to the usher? And

19 perhaps if I could just look at it for a moment, please, with the Court's

20 leave.

21 If Your Honours would give me a moment, please.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, clearly it's a document I think that my

24 learned friends have not seen. And I, for my part, feel that it would be

25 an appropriate document for them to see at this stage. We would be

Page 894

1 seeking to make it an exhibit, at the moment, because it's just recently

2 arrived. It is not in English, there is no translation for it, and it

3 also involves graphs, bar charts, and other material. I, for my part,

4 perhaps would submit that Defence should see it and if there is going to

5 be any argument about it or a course to be adopted, it should be dealt

6 with now. As matters stand, I would submit it is a document that should

7 be made an exhibit, as it goes to a relevant issue in the trial.

8 JUDGE PARKER: I would think that it -- before we go off the

9 screen, 49 line 28, the date is given as 20 December 2005. That must be

10 erroneous.

11 MR. MOORE: Well, I'm told that it's the 20th of October.

12 JUDGE PARKER: 2005.

13 MR. MOORE: 2005. And if there's an error then the error is not

14 mine.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I'm not concerned as to whose error but to

16 get that right.

17 Now, I would suggest that the document might again be made a

18 document marked for identification.

19 MR. MOORE: Yes.

20 JUDGE PARKER: You would rely for its admission on the evidence

21 which you have adduced from this witness.

22 MR. MOORE: That is correct.

23 JUDGE PARKER: And it should now be made available in due course

24 to the Defence and translated.

25 MR. MOORE: Yes.

Page 895

1 JUDGE PARKER: And at that point then you can return to the

2 document to tender it as an exhibit, if there are no objections. If there

3 are objections, to have those objections considered and ruled upon.

4 MR. MOORE: Exactly. And Your Honour may remember, and

5 Your Honours may remember that I did indicate at the very outset that

6 there was a documentation which the Defence -- the Prosecution only

7 received last week, or I think it was the previous week, which was being

8 translated. There was a difficulty in relation to the revealing of

9 individuals' names who were still alive and are still alive but nominated

10 as being military-involved on what I will call the Croatian side. And to

11 some extent it overlaps I suspect with this document. So it may have its

12 additional documentation to go with it. But perhaps if I could pass it

13 now to the Defence, with the Court's leave and, as I say, and Your Honour

14 has ruled that perhaps it can be marked for identification and be dealt

15 with later.

16 JUDGE PARKER: I think it could go to the Defence -- ah, are you

17 saying -- I'm not quite sure why it should be right now that we delay

18 while it goes to the Defence. That's my concern.

19 MR. MOORE: Well, there is no need to delay as such. This would

20 be my last topic of re-examination, and it may well be I only do it by way

21 of caution, if there is any matter that should be raised, it should be

22 raised perhaps before Dr. Bosanac would leave the Court.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Well, do make it available now. I'm not sure that

24 it gives the Defence any fair opportunity to examine the document in a few

25 moments. That's why I felt it should now be marked and we simply wait

Page 896

1 until they have had full time to look at it and you have had a chance to

2 have it translated.

3 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Then we could deal with the question of its

5 admissibility.

6 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I wonder if any Defence counsel disagrees with

8 that? I see nobody disagreeing. Oh, Mr. Lukic?

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one matter that I would like to

10 raise and I think this is something that concerns all three Defence teams.

11 That has to do with Mr. Moore's tactical approach when it comes to the

12 presentation of this document. If before the examination-in-chief he told

13 us that there was a document that he would later on send to us, and if we

14 concluded our cross-examination in which we raised this issue, then we do

15 not mind this document being marked as for identification. But we do

16 have -- we want to be enabled to cross-examine this witness on the basis

17 of this document, but we need to familiarise ourselves with the document

18 first. And then once we do that, we would then tell the Chamber whether

19 we want Mrs. Bosanac to come back to be examined on that issue alone. We

20 simply cannot comprehend that a document is being introduced now at the

21 end of cross-examination and not two weeks prior to this, only now after

22 the cross-examination is concluded. This is why we would like this

23 document to be given to us so that we can get acquainted with it and then

24 after that, we can tell you whether we want to examine Mrs. Bosanac or

25 perhaps Mr. Grujic on that issue.

Page 897

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. -- Thank you, Mr. Lukic. Yes, Mr.

2 Borovic?

3 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will be

4 very brief. I have an objection to make. The Prosecution is in

5 possession of this document several days now, and we think that they are

6 not following the instruction of 48 hours. I think that they need to

7 abide by the instructions set by the Trial Chamber. I fully agree with

8 Mr. Lukic. An additional thing I want to raise is that we do not have the

9 translation of this document and we are now denied an opportunity to

10 cross-examine on this very important document. Therefore, we think that

11 it can only be marked for identification; however, not admitted. Thank

12 you.

13 JUDGE PARKER: I agree, Mr. Borovic. Mr. Vasic? Could I mention

14 before you speak that unless I have misunderstood things, there are two

15 documents, not one. One was mentioned by Mr. Moore before he commenced

16 the evidence of the witness. That was a document which he said had come

17 into his possession, it was being dealt with, and as soon as it could be

18 translated and made available, it would be. This second document is the

19 one which Dr. Bosanac was now produced in court and made available to

20 Mr. Moore. That is being moved, and that was called for in

21 re-examination, because its existence became known to Mr. Moore during

22 cross-examination by Mr. Lukic. It was Mr. Lukic that produced from the

23 witness the information that she had this document containing this -- some

24 97 names. So this is a second document which no one of you, as Defence

25 counsel, nor Mr. Moore as prosecuting counsel, knew about when adducing

Page 898

1 the evidence. Am I right in that, Mr. Moore?

2 MR. MOORE: Yes, you are.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. So be aware of that.

4 With respect to the first document, Mr. Moore did indicate that

5 when it was translated and could be made available, if there was a need

6 for cross-examination, then, of course, that would need to be dealt with.

7 With this new document, he at the moment wants it to go into evidence, the

8 Chamber has indicated it should only be marked for identification to

9 enable Defence counsel to have a look at it and, if there are difficulties

10 with it, of course, then submissions will be put.

11 I don't know whether that helps you, Mr. Vasic but I thought I

12 would mention that before you made your further submission.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours. The

14 situation you just described now is absolutely clear. I would like to

15 support what my learned friends said. I also need to point out that my

16 learned friend from the Prosecution, in the beginning of the

17 examination-in-chief, stated that he had documents pertaining to the

18 database in relation to the report sent by the Vukovar medical centre

19 concerning the wounded and sick. It seems to me that this document that

20 my learned friend just received from Mrs. Vesna Bosanac corresponds to

21 that same database and represents a part of the documentation mentioned by

22 my learned friend from the Prosecution.

23 At any rate, perhaps the Prosecutor could tell us when he saw this

24 document, was it during the proofing session or was it perhaps only today.

25 But if I remember well, before the examination-in-chief, the Prosecutor

Page 899

1 told us that the examination-in-chief related to the newly discovered

2 documents would be postponed until later date when the translations were

3 ready and everything else could be prepared. It seems to me that the

4 document we saw today in the courtroom comes from the same batch of

5 documents and pertains to the same topics that my learned friend wanted to

6 examine about at a later date in this trial.

7 Therefore, I think that the comments of Mr. Lukic pertaining to

8 the tactical approach of the Prosecution are very valid, as are his

9 arguments about the need to enable the Defence to cross-examine on these

10 documents, because this is something that is needed in order to ensure a

11 fair trial.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

13 Mr. Moore?

14 MR. MOORE: Well, thank you very much for the compliments about my

15 tactical approach. Can I just deal with this issue. This document has

16 come as a direct consequence of Mr. Lukic's cross-examination. I was not

17 aware of this document. I noticed Mr. Lukic, having been told that the

18 list existed, did not ask to see it. Therefore I asked for it to be shown

19 in re-examination.

20 I have indicated at the very outset of the trial that Dr. Bosanac

21 had brought documentation which was documents that needed to be translated

22 for everyone and there had been agreement between Prosecution and Defence

23 that that should be deferred until the translation had been concluded and

24 at an appropriate time for all parties. I do not know what this document

25 says. Some of it is in B/C/S. Some of it relates to names, and I suspect

Page 900

1 diagnosis, and I suspect it is a compilation but I'm guessing. I suspect

2 it is a compilation of documents that have been received or information

3 received by Dr. Bosanac, and the database that existed at the hospital.

4 But I can take it no further than that. All I'm submitting is, in

5 re-examination I'm entitled to ask questions if a topic has arisen in

6 cross-examination. The topic that arose here was that Dr. Bosanac said

7 that she had a list to say that there was 97 people who were registered as

8 wounded and killed at Ovcara. In my submission, that is a relevant issue.

9 I have not tried to circumvent any rules. I have not tried to circumvent

10 any rulings. I am quite happy to accommodate my learned friends as much

11 as I possibly can. But there are two distinct criteria here: One, am I

12 entitled to re-examine on the topic; the answer, I would submit, is yes.

13 Two, if it's marked for identification, I have no problems in relation to

14 that.

15 But to make suggestions that I have behaved improperly is not

16 correct. And I'm disappointed my learned friends should make such

17 suggestions.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, the Chamber's appreciation is that it

19 was not clear to Defence counsel that there were two documents or that

20 this was one that you had not previously seen and were unaware of. And I

21 think that explains entirely their concerns and their submissions. And I

22 am sure that, the position having been made clear, that that has cleared

23 the air so to speak. The Chamber has grasped what you say. The Chamber,

24 though, has taken the view that it should not yet be exhibited but merely

25 marked for identification precisely to enable the Defence to have proper

Page 901

1 time to consider the document and the question then of its admissibility

2 or not can be considered in due course. Not today.

3 We are well conscious that it may unfortunately be necessary for

4 the doctor to return to give evidence about the first list which you

5 mentioned, which you say she brought with her --

6 MR. MOORE: Yes.

7 JUDGE PARKER: -- and, regrettable as that is, nevertheless it may

8 be necessary for us to impose on the doctor to come again. That being so,

9 there may arise an opportunity, if you pursue the tendering of this

10 document, or should the Defence wish, to look at the question of whether

11 cross-examination and examination on this further document should be

12 allowed as a departure from the ordinary procedure. And we will certainly

13 consider that if either Prosecution or the Defence wish to proceed along

14 that route when there has been time to look at this further document and

15 assess it in light of what else is known. So all of that will remain for

16 the future.

17 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

18 JUDGE PARKER: At the moment, the document -- does it bear a date

19 or a heading that we can readily identify it?

20 MR. MOORE: It has a date which seems to be the 20th of October.

21 There seems to be a reference of 519/08/05/2. And the recipient is

22 Dr. Vesna Bosanac, and the signature is a ministry signature from Zagreb,

23 and it seems to be Grujic, Grujic. And for completeness it appears to be

24 a list of 192 names with dates of birth, and I suspect locations of birth.

25 Then another chart that seems to be compiled with 97 names, dates of

Page 902

1 birth, names and, I suspect, diagnoses. And then added to it are a number

2 of what I will call bar charts in B/C/S, and the document will remain as

3 one. It is clear that someone has done an analysis.

4 JUDGE PARKER: The document you describe will be received, marked

5 only for identification.

6 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be number 47.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And you will provide copies of that to

10 the Defence and translations of it as soon as is practicable.

11 MR. MOORE: Yes, we will.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And you will provide the original now,

13 please, to the Registry so that there can be a copy of it now put into the

14 record. You will then get it back for the purpose of copying, et cetera.

15 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much, indeed.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?

17 JUDGE PARKER: You have a question, do you?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I would like to clarify

19 something concerning this document. I received from the ministry the

20 letter that was just admitted here, and an enclosure containing a list of

21 192 identified persons killed in Ovcara. This chart and a graph that were

22 enclosed came from the analysis that we conducted at the hospital where we

23 compared the list of those killed and identified in Ovcara and the

24 database that Mr. Moore spoke of earlier. I thought that this

25 clarification would be useful.

Page 903

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, doctor. I think we can leave it at

2 that, and it will be a question for later whether further questioning

3 about this document is necessary and appropriate.

4 Are there any further questions, Mr. Moore?

5 MR. MOORE: There are no further questions, thank you very much.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Doctor, for the moment, I'm glad to be able to tell

7 you that concludes the course of evidence. As you have understood, it may

8 become necessary for you to be called back to deal with these further

9 issues. When -- whether that will occur and when it may be, I can't tell

10 you at the moment. May we, though, thank you for coming. We appreciate

11 you had the difficulty of travelling with an injury, and we thank you for

12 your assistance.

13 We will, I think, rise now. It will be a convenient time for a

14 break. And that will enable the doctor, then, to leave the Court. I did

15 mention on Friday that as this was the first day of late sittings, we

16 would adjourn earlier as a gentle break-in for everybody to the new times,

17 but tomorrow, prepare to sit through until 7.00.

18 Today, at a time convenient, around 6.15, we will adjourn for the

19 day.

20 We will resume now at 5.15.

21 --- Break taken at 4.56 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 5.19 p.m.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Is it Mrs. Tuma that will be taking this witness?

24 MS. TUMA: Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. If we could have the next witness,

Page 904

1 please.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please take the card that is given to you

6 and read the affirmation aloud.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter].

9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

10 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.

12 Mrs. Tuma will ask you some questions.

13 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Examined by Ms. Tuma:

15 Q. Mrs. Kolesar my apologies for making you wait a couple of hours

16 before starting this afternoon's session and are you comfortable?

17 A. I am.

18 Q. Ms. Kolesar, what kind of profession do you have?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel please speak into the microphone?

20 MS. TUMA: Thank you for this. I'm learning.

21 Q. Mrs. Kolesar could you please tell us in the courtroom what kind

22 of profession you have?

23 A. I'm a retired nurse.

24 Q. And when did you retire?

25 A. I retired in 1996.

Page 905

1 Q. And can you please tell us about your educational background?

2 When you were trained in your profession?

3 A. Following secondary school, I went to a three-year medical school

4 for nurses.

5 Q. When was -- when did you examine as a nurse?

6 A. In 1961.

7 Q. And where was it?

8 A. I completed the medical school for nurses in Osijek, and I have

9 worked in the hospital in Vukovar since 1961.

10 Q. And in what capacity? You were working as a nurse but was there a

11 specific capacity you were working in the Vukovar -- the hospital Vukovar?

12 A. I worked as a registered, meaning senior, nurse. From 1962 to

13 1991 I was head nurse in the surgical ward.

14 Q. Who was your superior in your -- in the surgery ward? Now we are

15 talking about 1991 from the fall, spring, summer, and fall 1991.

16 A. From 1988 and on, Dr. Mladen Ivankovic was head of the surgical

17 ward.

18 Q. Who was the director of the hospital in -- during the spring of

19 1991 and was it changed later on, and what time, and how was the change

20 done?

21 A. In 1991, Dr. Rade Popovic was director of the hospital. In the

22 course of the summer, either in June or in July, a change occurred.

23 Dr. Popovic was no longer the director, but, rather, Dr. Vesna Bosanac was

24 appointed director.

25 Q. Do you happen to know the reason for the change of director of the

Page 906

1 hospital?

2 A. No, no. This had nothing to do with my work. It did not affect

3 my work in any way, this change of director, and I couldn't tell you the

4 real reason for that.

5 Q. How many nurses were you supervising, Mrs. Kolesar, when you were

6 working as a chief nurse? Now we are talking about spring, summer, and

7 autumn of 1991, just to make us to show your capacity as a chief nurse.

8 A. The job of the head nurse in the surgical ward was to control and

9 educate medical staff or, rather, to monitor and educate the medical staff

10 and janitors. There were about 100 nurses and about 25 janitors or

11 cleaning ladies. In addition, there were also medical technicians who

12 worked in the surgical ward as plaster technicians or they worked in the

13 clinic itself.

14 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar. I will move on and ask you to describe

15 just briefly about the setup of the hospital in peace time and, let us

16 say, before May 1991. How many beds could the hospital take for the total

17 number of patients at the time? Now we are talking about before May 1991.

18 A. The hospital had about 400 to 450 beds. Perhaps 420 would be the

19 most accurate figure. It had almost all wards, paediatrics, neurology,

20 psychiatry, surgery, gynaecology, so all wards were represented. We also

21 had full diagnostical capabilities and the full capacity of the hospital

22 was 450 patients. All wards operated normally. The hospital was very

23 well equipped. One part of it was new, the other part was renovated, and

24 the work was conducted absolutely normally. The hospital was part of the

25 medical centre. The medical centre included health clinics which provided

Page 907

1 primary health care. So the total number of employed staff members in the

2 entire medical centre was 900 to 950.

3 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar. When it comes to the ethnicity of

4 patients and medical staff, were there any kind of differences or was it a

5 mixture or was it any kind was prevailing the other sort of ethnicity

6 amongst the patients and the medical staff at this time?

7 A. It made absolutely no difference what the ethnic background of a

8 patient was. There were no problems with the personnel. All of us worked

9 together. One couldn't say that there were more people of this ethnic

10 background than that ethnic background. Perhaps there were more Serb

11 doctors, but as for the other staff members, they were all equally

12 represented. One couldn't tell that one ethnic group dominated.

13 Q. And what was your, as a chief nurse at the hospital, and

14 supervising other nurses, the principle that guided your work as a nurse

15 towards the patients? What kind -- what treatment did you give the

16 patients? When there any differences when it comes to ethnicity in that

17 sense?

18 A. There is no such principle known to the science of medicine and

19 the same applies to nurses. Doctors take an oath and the same treatment

20 is accorded everyone and the same applies to nurses. All patients are

21 always treated equally. The staff, too, are treated equally regardless of

22 their position. This is the guiding principle in all hospitals, I should

23 assume. As for the medical staff, I appreciated honest, hard-working

24 people.

25 Q. And was it also regardless of what kind of conditions the staff,

Page 908

1 medical staff, was working under?

2 A. The same thing. There were no better or worse conditions, as it

3 were. There were some jobs that were perhaps a bit easier and some that

4 were a bit more difficult, but this in no way was affected by the ethnic

5 composition.

6 Q. Thank, Mrs. Kolesar. I suppose you're aware of an event that

7 happened on the 2nd May 1991, when some Croat policemen were killed. Did

8 that event create any kind of differences in the setup of the hospital or

9 personnel and patients?

10 A. It is certain that the 2nd May of 1992 very much affected

11 everything that from then on happened in town, not to the same extent in

12 the hospital, I would say, with the possible exception of our surgery

13 ward. After the 2nd of May, they always had to be prepared to admit a

14 certain number of wounded on any given day. Up to that point, we had no

15 special beds that were awaiting wounded people. On the 2nd of May we had

16 to start improvising and start discharging patients that were nearing full

17 recovery, in order to make room for the wounded police officers and

18 wounded civilians alike.

19 Q. Did it have any special affect on the kind of patients --

20 A. This certainly affected both ethnic groups. Everybody who was on

21 their way to the surgery ward was having second thoughts. Do I really

22 have to go there? Is this really necessary? There was a lot of confusion

23 about town and no one was certain what would happen, whether the JNA

24 attacks would continue or not. At any rate, the entire hospital was fully

25 operational and this includes all the wards, with the exception of the

Page 909

1 surgery ward. They had to have a certain number of beds available and a

2 greater number of doctors and nurses available for emergencies and for any

3 wounded people coming in.

4 Q. The crisis committee, Mrs. Kolesar, can you please describe what

5 that is? And when it -- what it was and when it was set up and for what

6 reason.

7 A. The Crisis Staff was established as early as the month of May or

8 perhaps early June. Its purpose was to prepare the hospital to admit a

9 greater number of patients than was the norm. Of course, the hospital had

10 more beds than were being used but the question was, were these adequate

11 conditions? For example, if there was an attack against the hospital and

12 work became impossible in the surgical theatres, they had to be moved

13 elsewhere where they could continue to operate normally. The purpose of

14 the Crisis Staff was to provide a make shift facility to provide

15 sufficient staff and to provide supplies in terms of water, electricity,

16 medicine, everything you need to treat a patient. The Crisis Staff

17 comprised the chief of surgery, the director, the chief nurse, the chief

18 nurse of the surgery ward, and all the chiefs of all the departments that

19 were deemed to be helpful in this emergency.

20 Q. What were at the time in May 1991, any kind of preparation so to

21 say made in the hospital in order to facilitate if there should be any

22 ongoing attacks on the silty itself and that could have any kind of

23 impacts on the hospital as such?

24 A. When the new wing of the hospital was built back in 1975 or 1976,

25 one of the conditions imposed was that an atomic shelter should be built.

Page 910

1 Therefore the hospital had ha atomic shelter and this was a safe area. It

2 was never used and it was never maintained. It was never meant to be used

3 for medical work until Borovo Selo happened. It was at this point that

4 during the summer, that means in June, July and August, the atomic shelter

5 was redone in a manner of speaking so that it could be used by both

6 doctors and patients but it only had four small rooms with some auxiliary

7 rooms. There was a -- there was a surgical theatre and a room used by

8 duty doctors. We set up equipment in the basement, and this was now the

9 room where operations were performed and intensive care administered.

10 This was a matter of necessity. In addition to that, there were sporadic

11 attacks by the JNA on Vukovar throughout the summer and we at the Crisis

12 Staff worked out a detailed plan of how the wounded would be evacuated

13 from the wards into the atomic shelter. The two buildings were connected

14 by an underground corridor. Midway down the corridor was the door to the

15 atomic shelter. Therefore all the wards that were on the first and second

16 floor had priority in being evacuated. The ground floor came last.

17 Unfortunately, there was an attack that occurred about the 15th of August,

18 an attack on Vukovar, and this was a test, as it were, on how the atomic

19 shelter would be used in the future. All the patients were taken to the

20 atomic shelter and, once the attack was over, they were returned to their

21 respective wards.

22 Q. I thank you, Mrs. Kolesar. I will now move on to show to the

23 Court and also to the parties here a chart that has been disclosed to the

24 Defence as well, and that is a description of the hospital so that we all

25 know that we are talking about and what kind of -- so all can see when

Page 911

1 Mrs. Kolesar is made a reference to the atomic shelter or the corridor so

2 we know what we are talking about here.

3 And that is a chart with an ERN number 04639058, for the Court

4 officer, and I guess it also has been disclosed to the Defence as well.

5 Have everyone access and also the witness access on the screen to

6 that document?

7 A. I can see it. I have it.

8 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, do you recognise this drawing?

9 A. Yes, of course I do.

10 Q. And why?

11 A. This is an expromptu drawing which represents the hospital

12 buildings. You can see the road and you can see the Danube. You can even

13 see the connecting corridor running between the new building and the

14 so-called old building of the hospital.

15 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mrs. Kolesar. Who has made this

16 drawing?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. And when was that?

19 A. Some days ago.

20 Q. That's correct.

21 MS. TUMA: And I will just give information for the Defence and

22 for the Court that this drawing was made by Mrs. Kolesar during the

23 proofing the other day, last week.

24 And it's not signed. I would like to add that. But it has been

25 identified by Mrs. Kolesar as done by her. And I would like later on to

Page 912

1 admit this into evidence.

2 Q. Mrs. Kolesar now we move on to give us, please, a description of

3 the hospital. We have been earlier talking about the old building, the

4 new building and the corridor and atomic shelter. Can you please show on

5 this drawing the different kinds of parts of the hospital that you have

6 been talking about? Can anyone show the witness how she will do that,

7 please? Thank you so much.

8 A. This is an amateur drawing, but I hope that we can use it to

9 clarify the respective positions of everybody involved, where people

10 worked and where people stayed. I'm listening.

11 Q. Thank you. You were talking about the atomic shelter. Can you

12 please show on this chart where the atomic shelter were located?

13 JUDGE THELIN: Excuse me, there would be a paper copy and we could

14 put it on the overhead perhaps, and see where the pointings are made?

15 MS. TUMA: Yes, we have paper copies as well. Yes. Okay. Thank

16 you for that, Your Honour.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The atomic shelter is actually

18 between the two buildings, between the so-called old hospital and the

19 so-called new hospital. It's linked to an underground corridor connecting

20 the two buildings.

21 It's between the new section and the old section of the hospital.

22 There is an underground corridor that connects the two buildings. There

23 is an entrance and it comprises four large rooms and several smaller rooms

24 used for storage for keeping supplies, or even for cooking meals. There

25 are two lavatories included.

Page 913

1 Q. And the old building and the new building that you mentioned

2 earlier, can you show on the chart where the new building and where the

3 old billing is?

4 A. This is the old building, and to the left is the new building.

5 Q. And the corridor that is connecting the old and the new building,

6 can you please show that, Mrs. Kolesar?

7 A. It's right here. I'll underline it. The size here on this sketch

8 does not correspond with its actual size on the spot, but it more or less

9 represents the situation.

10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Can you please also Mrs. Kolesar show us the

11 whole hospital area, if there were any gates into the hospital area from

12 any kind of road.

13 A. The entire hospital area is made up of an area leading from the

14 road to a parking lot in front of the hospital, and then you have the main

15 entrance with the reception area. If you take this entrance, you're able

16 to access all the wards and all the rooms of the hospital. Across the

17 yard, you have a section which is also adjacent to a road. Here again

18 there is an entrance to the hospital. There is a roundabout here which

19 can easily be accessed by an ambulance and patients requiring urgent

20 assistance can be transported to the hospital more expeditiously.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar. You just mentioned across the

22 yard. Where is the yard in the hospital area? Can you please mark that?

23 A. It is actually between the two buildings, the old and the new, and

24 it extends to an area which is behind the new building.

25 Q. Thank you. And the emergency exit? Where is that located on the

Page 914

1 chart, please?

2 A. The emergency exit was only here in the surgery ward. That was

3 the only one. I am marking it now.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The surgery clinic, interpreter's correction.

6 MS. TUMA: We can put the map or the chart aside and we can go

7 back to the chart later on in the examination-in-chief. Thank you, Mrs.

8 Kolesar. This was for a description for the parties in order to have some

9 idea of, and also for myself, how the setup of the hospital were at the

10 time.

11 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, when started the real attack on Vukovar city? When

12 was that?

13 A. I think it coincided with the 2nd of May, although that was an

14 event of local significance and only a handful of police officers were

15 attacked. However, from that time on, the JNA vehicles were continually

16 in motion leaving the barracks and going, for example, to Borovo Selo. So

17 we would come across many of those although they had not yet started

18 firing and pounding us, but their presence was permanent. And then in

19 June or July, there were sporadic attacks.

20 I'm no military expert myself, but it certainly seemed that the

21 attacks were being launched either from a ship on the Danube or from

22 across the Danube, from the opposite river bank, because that's what the

23 impacts indicated, the way the houses that were hit were hit. For

24 example, today I see a building it's intact. The next morning I go to

25 work and I see that these same buildings have in the meantime been

Page 915

1 destroyed which started changing the cityscape. The first major attacks

2 happened in Borovo Selo. There were several major attacks especially in

3 July and August. And the wounded that were -- that started coming in at

4 the time were coming in from Borovo Naselje.

5 Q. Okay. Mrs. Kolesar you're talking about the major attacks in June

6 and July. Was it other attacks than the city itself? Were there other

7 areas that were targeted as well, according to your knowledge?

8 A. Of course. The neighbouring villages must have been targeted too,

9 I assume, because at a later date I saw that they had been destroyed. I'm

10 not sure about the timing but if we are talking about the town and its

11 surroundings, I'm mentioning Borovo Naselje, I can also mention Luzac.

12 Throughout the summer, I can't say there were daily attacks but there

13 certainly were attacks occurring every now and then. What were the

14 reasons behind these attacks and what had prompted them is not something

15 that I can judge.

16 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, you just mentioned some villages in the

17 neighbourhood of Vukovar city. How far away from Vukovar city were those

18 villages located?

19 A. The largest settlement in the surroundings of Vukovar is the town

20 of Ilok and the distance between Vukovar and Ilok is 35 kilometres. It

21 was part of Vukovar municipality, and needless to say, the people of Ilok

22 went to Vukovar to receive medical treatment. They only had a local

23 health centre there. All the other villages Opatovac, Stompajvci [phoen],

24 Tolonik [phoen], and so on and so forth were a little closer, distances

25 being 9 kilometres, 20 kilometres and so on and so forth.

Page 916

1 On the opposite side you had Borovo Selo, the distance being

2 perhaps nine or ten kilometres or not even that much. Trpinja was very

3 close. Brsadin was 8 or 9 kilometres, Petrovci, 9, Negoslavci likewise.

4 They all went to the Vukovar Hospital to receive medical treatment.

5 Q. All those -- do I understand you right, Mrs. Kolesar, when you --

6 do you mean that all those villages or cities you were mentioning right

7 now, they were -- that they were all shelled throughout June and July 1991

8 and that the hospital received wounded patients from those areas?

9 A. Let me give you an example. The wounded from Novi Cakovci there

10 had been an attack at some point in the summer. They came in, they were

11 wounded, and they were all civilians. About five or six persons were

12 admitted. They managed to reach the Vukovar Hospital at this early stage.

13 Q. During this time frame, June and July 1991, was the hospital

14 itself attacked at any point in the summer 1991?

15 A. Yes. I was just about to say that. The section with the surgical

16 theatres had been targeted from the Danube, from the river. The buildings

17 were in danger. They had not caved in yet but several shells landed on

18 the hospital roof.

19 Q. At this time, June, July we are talking about, was there any

20 marking of the hospital?

21 A. We are talking about the month of July. The hospital was marked.

22 Q. In what way, then, and where, please?

23 A. It was marked. There was a huge red cross out in the yard. Given

24 the fact, though, that the new building was very tall, it wasn't possible

25 to place the cross on top of the building. So the Red Cross was placed on

Page 917

1 the roof of the infection ward, which was a little bit lower than the

2 surrounding buildings. One thing is for sure, however. The hospital was

3 visibly marked. One mark being out on the lawn between the two buildings

4 and the other being on the roof of the infection ward.

5 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, you have on your right-hand the chart that you were

6 so kind enough to draw the other day so we can see it more clearly. Can

7 you please show on that chart where the marking of the hospital was at the

8 time?

9 A. The marking was at the parking lot. It was a concrete area behind

10 the new building. The other sign was on the roof of the infection ward

11 building.

12 Q. Would you say that those markings were clearly visible?

13 A. I assume they had been arranged in such a way as to be clearly

14 visible. The people whose job it was to put those up seemed certain that

15 they would be sufficient to clearly mark the hospital.

16 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar.

17 MS. TUMA: We can leave the chart for a moment again. And then I

18 would like to move on to the time period between August and up to

19 mid-November.

20 Q. During this time frame, were you living in the city of Vukovar or

21 were you at any point of time moving into the hospital?

22 A. I live in the town of Vukovar itself, close to the centre of town.

23 I made these daily trips to the hospital from my home, from where I live.

24 I went to work every day regardless of what I was seeing along the way on

25 a daily basis, things being demolished, houses destroyed that used to be

Page 918

1 in perfect condition. We continued to go to work all the way until the

2 25th of August when this changed. On the 25th of August, the town itself

3 was subjected to a heavy aviation attack. Lots of wounded started

4 streaming into the hospital. All the wounded from all the other wards had

5 been taken to the atomic shelter or to the hospital basement. Until the

6 20th of November not a single wounded person and not a single bed were

7 ever returned to any of the wards. Between the 25th of August and the

8 20th of November, all the hospital tasks were performed in the basement,

9 in the underground corridors and in the atomic shelter.

10 Q. What part of the hospital was not able to be in use due to the

11 attacks? And was that from a specific point in time?

12 A. Well, from that time on, from the 25th of August onwards, the

13 staff working there and the patients were facing grave danger, and

14 operations were no longer performed in the surgery ward. For a while,

15 these continued in the gynaecology ward on the first floor but that too

16 became dangerous after a while because all the window panes had been

17 shattered and there was no way to keep the room sterile. From the very

18 beginning of the aggression against Vukovar, but more specifically from

19 late August onwards, those could no longer be used. We used the equipment

20 from those rooms but we no longer used the rooms themselves.

21 Q. Okay. Mrs. Kolesar, you just mentioned that on the 25th of

22 August, there was an aviation attack. Can you tell us more about that and

23 about how that affected the people, and if you could see any consequences

24 in your -- in terms of your profession as a nurse at the hospital? Were

25 there civilians or people coming into the hospital as wounded? Can you

Page 919

1 tell us more about that, please?

2 A. The attack on the 25th was extremely fierce. A very large number

3 of civilians were killed because they were not prepared for something like

4 that. So I can say that this attack surprised both them and us. Later

5 on, the people start living the so-called basement lives. Everybody hid

6 in their own neighbourhoods where they could find shelter in their

7 basements and so on. Therefore, later on, even though the attacks became

8 even more fierce, fewer civilians were injured or killed because people

9 became more careful. They stopped using their houses and they only used

10 the basement areas and practically lived underground. The wounded could

11 be brought to the hospital in our hospital vehicles. We still had water

12 and electric supply, and, if our ambulances went to the spot, they would

13 bring the wounded back to the hospital. Sometimes the wounded would be

14 transported in private vehicles.

15 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, on the 25th of August you just mentioned that there

16 was a large number of civilians that was wounded and killed. Do you have

17 today any kind of recollection how many, about, patients were coming to

18 the hospital on that day?

19 A. Definitely 30 to 40, definitely 30 to 40 people were wounded.

20 What I'm trying to say is that all of these people received treatment in

21 our hospital. They were all admitted into hospital. The advantage at the

22 time was that the roads leading to Vinkovci and their hospital were still

23 open so one could travel through Bogdanovci, Marinci, Nustar, and reach

24 Vinkovci. We treated the seriously wounded and operated on them and did

25 everything we could but we also evacuated them so as not to subject them

Page 920

1 to the conditions that I described, meaning living in the atomic shelter

2 and improvised areas. That in turn enable us to be ready for the influx

3 of new patients.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you. Mrs. Kolesar you just mentioned 30 to 40

5 patients that got to the hospital on the 25th of August 1991. Were

6 they -- what kind of people were they, the 30 to 40 people that arrived to

7 the hospital on the 25th of August?

8 A. Normal, scared and wounded people. There were children among

9 them, women, senior men and women. Just residents of Vukovar.

10 Q. Normal civilians, people, then, was it so?

11 A. Civilians, yes. Most of them were civilians. I can't say whether

12 there was among them perhaps a uniformed defender or somebody else. They

13 were also sometimes wounded and for us they were just regular patients.

14 Anybody who was wounded at any time, any member of any army, was admitted

15 and treated just like any other patient. The treatment that civilians or

16 any other uniformed persons received was absolutely identical.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you. And earlier you mentioned here, Mrs. Kolesar,

18 that you went -- you travelled between your home and the hospital. Was

19 there any time that you couldn't do that and, if so, why?

20 A. Since my house is near the hospital, I normally went on foot.

21 After the 25th of August, perhaps occasionally I could have gone home when

22 there were fewer attacks and so on, but my presence at the hospital was

23 necessary because it was questionable whether we would be able to return

24 to the hospital if we went home. There was that possibility that, due to

25 attacks, we would be unable to go back to work in the hospital, and this

Page 921

1 pertained not only to me but to all other staff members who lived in

2 Vukovar and elsewhere.

3 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, on your daily walks between your home and the

4 hospital before you moved so to say to the hospital, what did you see

5 around you in the morning and in the afternoon or in the evening when you

6 were walking between, and what changes do you see during those days when

7 you were looking around on your daily walk so to say between your house

8 and the hospital?

9 A. En route, every day, one could see new destruction. What I wish

10 to say is that one could be injured while en route. More and more

11 buildings were destroyed. The road was also damaged, hit. One day, the

12 drivers tried to drive me home and it was almost impossible to drive on

13 the road leading to my house because of all the potholes caused by shells,

14 bombs and so on. Therefore, all of the roads were damaged and it was very

15 difficult to drive to the hospital or anywhere else from one part of the

16 town to the other one, because of the damaged roads. Likewise, it was

17 very difficult to transport the wounded, because of these roads. As for

18 the houses, there were daily new destructions.

19 Q. How about -- how was the medical staff? Could they -- were they

20 compelled, so to say, any point in time to move to the hospital or could

21 they, as you, Mrs. Kolesar, walk between or travel between the home and

22 the hospital? And how about their families?

23 A. Most of the nurses and even doctors, naturally, wanted to spend

24 the night in their own homes, under normal circumstances. Their children,

25 spouses, families, lived in basements. They went home because their

Page 922

1 shifts would be such that they worked for 24 hours and then were free for

2 24 hours. Therefore, they didn't need to spend that free time in the

3 hospital. If it was possible, they went back home, but we also needed to

4 be sure that they would be able to come back to the hospital when they

5 needed -- when we needed them. And this was the system that was in place

6 up until September, and every morning we would be awaiting the arrival of

7 our staff. We also had to draw up new schedule, depending on who arrived

8 to work that day. And this applied both to nurses and to the cooks,

9 cleaning ladies and so on. We needed to make sure that all of the work

10 could be performed. Therefore, this system was in place up until the end

11 of September when it became almost impossible to anybody to go home,

12 except for the people who lived right next to the hospital.

13 Q. And why was this so, Mrs. Kolesar?

14 A. This was so because new destruction was continuously inflicted on

15 the city. It was impossible for these people to spend time in their

16 apartments or in their houses. There was no safety for them, or, rather,

17 they felt safe only when they had their families with them. As a result

18 of that, five, six, or ten nurses brought their children to the hospital,

19 aged between 2 and, say, 15 years. So for me personally, it was easier to

20 make a roster and to organise the work.

21 Q. During this time frame when we are talking about August and

22 November, when it comes to patients that got to the hospital, that were

23 wounded, how many patients at an average, every day, would you recall that

24 received treatment or went to the hospital in order to be treated?

25 A. On average, we had about 30 wounded persons. There were days when

Page 923

1 we had ten and there also were days when we had 80 of them. It all

2 depended on the ferocity of the JNA attacks, either aviation attacks or

3 shelling attacks. So there were different days when there were days when

4 we could treat somebody efficiently and quickly, and there were such days

5 when it was impossible to provide immediate assistance to all 80 of the

6 wounded. We had to do triage. We had to give priority to those who were

7 most seriously wounded. However, everybody received treatment in the

8 conditions that prevailed at the time. Not a single person was left

9 unattended. Everybody received a tetanus shot or an antibiotic or was

10 operated on. After that, we placed them in the rooms that we used.

11 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar. When it comes to those average of 30

12 wounded a day about, what kinds of nationalities were there amongst those

13 people and what kind of people were there? Were there civilians or were

14 there armed soldiers? Can you tell us about that, please?

15 A. Most of them were civilians but, naturally, there were wounded

16 defenders. That was unavoidable. There was no other hospital that they

17 could have gone to. So this hospital was open both for civilians and

18 wounded defenders.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. Up until the 19th of October, we had organised convoys which

21 enabled us to send away some of the wounded. So, while the road through

22 the cornfields was still open, we were able to transport elsewhere the

23 most seriously wounded persons. And the last occasion when such persons

24 were evacuated was on the 19th of October when we evacuated 120 severely

25 wounded persons. That in turn enabled us to admit new patients.

Page 924

1 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar. We will come to that in a while.

2 How was the conditions in the hospital? How was -- was there any

3 changes in the conditions, working conditions, in the hospital, due to the

4 attacks on the hospital itself? Could you perform surgery? Were there

5 water? Were there electricity? Were there medicine and food for the

6 patients?

7 A. In September, in early September, and up until mid-September, we

8 still had normal supply of electricity and water. Following that, we had

9 neither electricity nor water. Electricity came from a generator, and

10 water came from water supplies. Our water reserve contained 12.000 litres

11 of water. We used that for our daily work and then we needed to refill

12 it. So in order to have a steady supply of water, we had to constantly

13 bring in or transport water. The main assistance in that regard was

14 provided by the firemen who used their cisterns to transport water for us.

15 The water was placed in water depots and we used approximately two and a

16 half thousand litres of water a day in order to prepare food, wash

17 laundry, to wash patients and to perform surgeries. Electricity was

18 supplied by generators. We received some generators from the Borovo

19 factory. We never had to suspend any surgeries due to lack of water or

20 electricity. So we had to ensure that we had sufficient quantities of

21 laundry water in order to have normal sanitary conditions, and enough

22 electricity in order to conduct operations.

23 A. These were certainly not normal working conditions. I don't know

24 if you can imagine daily life of so many people under such circumstances.

25 When we had only the minimum needed to ensure sanitary conditions. We had

Page 925

1 to make sure that what we feed them was not poisonous, that it was not

2 contagious. We had to make sure that lavatories operated in normal

3 conditions. We had to make sure that our patients had beds that were

4 clean enough.

5 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar.

6 MS. TUMA: I think we can end there for today.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mrs. Tuma. As you realised we reached

8 the time when we were to adjourn today. We will resume tomorrow at 2.15.

9 Mrs. Kolesar, I must ask you if you would return tomorrow to

10 continue your evidence at 2.15 in the afternoon. Thank you very much.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.20 p.m., to

12 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day of November,

13 2005, at 2.15 p.m.