Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1013

1 Wednesday, 2 November 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, Mrs. Kolesar. If I could remind

9 you --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11 JUDGE PARKER: -- of the affirmation you made at the beginning of

12 your evidence, which still applies.

13 Mr. Vasic was in the process of still questioning you.

14 Mr. Vasic.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Good

16 afternoon to everyone.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]

18 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Kolesar.

19 A. Good afternoon.

20 Q. First of all I wanted to say the decision to continue our

21 cross-examination today was wise, because it will shorten my

22 cross-examination by a factor of three.

23 I just had a look at yesterday's transcript and I have decided to

24 drop about two-thirds of the questions that I was otherwise going to ask

25 the witness as a result of that?

Page 1014

1 JUDGE PARKER: Splendid news, Mr. Vasic. Are you trying to

2 suggest we should adjourn early more often?

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Not necessarily, Your Honour. I

4 believe this was an exceptional situation. Thank you.

5 Can I have the usher's assistance, please? First of all, I will

6 be using the following document. The number in English is 2D01-0048.

7 B/C/S is 2D01-0036.

8 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, can you see page 1 of the statement you gave to the

9 investigators on your screen?

10 A. Yes, but in English. No, no. This is not the same document. I

11 can see it now.

12 Q. Thank you. Is this the statement you spoke about yesterday and

13 confirmed that you gave this statement to the investigators of the OTP?

14 A. If this is page 1, "Witness," "Witness information," because

15 that's what I see on the screen.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

18 please so that we can adjust the document in such a way that Mrs. Kolesar

19 is looking at the B/C/S version of the document? I will require her to

20 read a portion.

21 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, can you see the B/C/S now?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In my cross-examination yesterday, I asked you about Serb patients

24 who, after the 2nd of May, and the presence of police officers in the

25 hospital, started to express concern because of the presence of these

Page 1015

1 police officers. You answered they had no reason to worry about that.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is on page 55 of

3 yesterday's transcript, the 1st of November.

4 Can the Registrar please show the following page on the screen, a

5 page from 2D01-0049 in the English, and page 29010038 in the B/C/S.

6 Q. Witness, can you see the B/C/S page displayed on the screen?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Please be so kind and read out the last two sentences from the

9 first paragraph of your statement.

10 A. "From the clash at Borovo Selo onwards, the hospital also treated

11 the wounded Croatian police officers, but inside the hospital they were

12 guarded by armed police officers. At this point, the Serb patients,

13 civilians, stopped coming to the hospital because the presence of Croatian

14 police officers in the hospital caused them concern."

15 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, this statement that you gave to the investigators of

16 the Tribunal displays a discrepancy in relation to what we heard from you

17 yesterday. Was your recollection fresher back in 1995, when you gave the

18 statement to the investigators, or would you say that it's clearer today?

19 A. I would say that both then and now, my recollection of this

20 particular situation is vivid, the only question being whether I should

21 word it differently or whether I should have the words translated from the

22 English as we see here. The meaning, however, remains the same.

23 Q. What you're trying to say is that the true meaning of the sentence

24 is as expressed in the English version?

25 A. I don't know English and I can't judge that, but the fact remains

Page 1016

1 that the influx of Serb patients decreased to some extent, precisely as a

2 result of what we talked about yesterday, namely, the presence of police

3 officers who were guarding the wounded. Furthermore, another thing is

4 what I spoke about yesterday. Some people weren't able to make it to the

5 hospital. Any concerns by any Serb patients coming to the hospital were

6 absolutely unfounded, because in all the wards throughout the hospital,

7 including the surgery ward, there was a sufficient number of Serb doctors

8 working, if you like, to prevent anything bad from happening to these

9 people and to ensure that they received the best treatment possible.

10 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can the Registrar please now display

12 the following page: 2D01-0051 in the English version and page 2D01-0041 of

13 the B/C/S.

14 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, can you see that portion on the screen in front of

15 you? It should be page 6 of the B/C/S statement.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Yesterday we also spoke about whether ZNG and MUP

18 members came to the hospital in order to change their clothes there. I

19 asked you about the statement you gave to the OTP. I asked you whether

20 you in fact stated that it had been impossible to say who was actually

21 wounded and who was merely pretending, but you said you couldn't remember

22 and that maybe this was something that was taken out of context.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] This is on page 76 of yesterday's

24 transcript, Your Honours.

25 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, the second sentence of the first passage, and the

Page 1017

1 third sentence, can you please read it out.

2 A. I wasn't following. Which specific sentences?

3 Q. The second and the third in the first passage on this page.

4 A. Yes, that's precisely what I'm looking at.

5 "I did not know at the time if there were Croat soldiers or

6 defenders among the civilians inside the hospital, because I did not know

7 who was who and there were too many people. You could not tell who was

8 wounded and who just pretended to be wounded. The lists of wounded were

9 given over to Dr. Bosanac, who was supposed to forward them to the

10 International Red Cross so that they could later organise transport for

11 the wounded."

12 Q. Do you agree with me now when I say that we now have the entire

13 context for this sentence, the entire background?

14 A. Yes, I agree, likewise. Even today, it would be difficult for me

15 to say how, in a crowd of people, I could have known who was really

16 wounded and who was merely pretending. There was no way I could possibly

17 ascertain that. I just registered the fact that people were coming in. I

18 was sure there were people who were really wounded among them, and in all

19 likelihood there were those who were merely pretending. Whether they

20 would be allowed to do that did not depend on me, but there was such a

21 huge crowd, there was no way for me to tell. There were thousands of

22 people passing through, and I was in no position to tell.

23 If I may, I would like to provide this additional explanation.

24 All over the world, according to conventions that you're all familiar

25 with, a wounded person must be protected. It is perhaps not strange,

Page 1018

1 given the situation that we were in, that some people should fight to

2 attain that status, given its protected position.

3 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs. Kolesar, for your answers.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

5 questions for this witness. Thank you.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

7 Mr. Borovic?

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Borovic:

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours; good

10 afternoon to my friends from the OTP.

11 Q. I am Borivoj Borovic, Defence counsel for Miroslav Radic.

12 My first question: Can you please tell us about your conversation

13 with the Tribunal investigators? In which language did you provide your

14 statement?

15 A. I was speaking in Croatian. I signed the English version, but I

16 believe that I was not at the time aware of these -- the discrepancies or

17 of the style of the translation which, however, bring about such awkward

18 situations as we have just witnessed.

19 Q. Do you believe that your words have been clumsily translated into

20 English?

21 A. There is not something that I can say, because I do not speak

22 English. I did not go through the English version in order to be able to

23 fully compare it to the Croatian original.

24 Q. Does that mean that the English version of the statement was never

25 shown to you?

Page 1019

1 A. Well, with the exception of signing the statement right there on

2 the spot, probably not.

3 Q. When was the last time you saw Vesna Bosanac?

4 A. Some days ago, when we saw her off to the airport.

5 Q. Who else was with her?

6 A. You mean right now?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. I was there, and our next witness was with us too. We came with

9 her as far as the van, and I have no idea what happened later.

10 Q. The next witness is called what exactly?

11 A. It's a protected witness.

12 Q. Thank you. How do you know that the next witness is protected?

13 A. I realised yesterday when we talked about Tomislav Hegedus and how

14 Ms. Tuma reacted to that last name. It's not the same person.

15 Q. Did you discuss the trial with Mrs. Bosanac?

16 A. My statement, you mean? If I discussed that with her? We know

17 that this is not permitted. We try to avoid that subject and we have

18 enough to talk about any way.

19 Q. Does that mean that you've been socialising these days but you

20 have not discussed this?

21 A. As you probably realised, Mrs. Bosanac has a plaster cast strapped

22 around her leg. She was bedridden. She couldn't go to breakfast, lunch

23 or dinner. We would bring dinner up to her room so that she could feed

24 regularly. Every day on her way to the courtroom, I would place an

25 elastic band on top of the plaster cast.

Page 1020

1 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs. Kolesar. That is quite sufficient by

2 way of an explanation. Can we now please have yes or no answers, where

3 possible, for the next couple of questions, and then we can take it from

4 there.

5 First question: Was Dr. Popovic replaced, yes or no, as hospital

6 director?

7 A. I wouldn't say that he was replaced. I would say that there was

8 a change in that office. I'm not aware of how that change came about.

9 Q. I think that you didn't quite understand my question. I asked you

10 to give a yes or no answer. Was he replaced or no?

11 A. He was replaced.

12 Q. All right. My second question: Serb doctors and nurses, did they

13 start leaving the hospital after May 1991, yes or no, bearing in mind all

14 the explanations we heard from you yesterday?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. My learned friend Vasic put the statement to you today, where it

17 explicitly says that Serb patients stopped coming to the hospital after

18 May 1991. Today, when the statement was put to you, it seemed to me that

19 you tried to ameliorate that statement, saying that people were unable to

20 come due to legitimate reasons.

21 A. Since you require a yes or no answer, I will try to say this:

22 What I said about people not being able to come pertained only to the

23 surgical ward.

24 Q. Do you know the reason why Serb patients stopped coming after May

25 1991 to the surgical ward?

Page 1021

1 A. I suppose because there was a number of wounded persons there.

2 They came sporadically. There were always some wounded there, and while

3 the wounded were there, police guarded them so this police guarding the

4 patients was the reason why Serb patients refrained from coming.

5 Q. Does that mean, Mrs. Kolesar, that if the Serb patients came,

6 those who were afraid of policemen, that they would be turned back?

7 A. No, they would have been admitted just like all other patients. I

8 stated quite clearly that we had a sufficient number of Serb doctors

9 working in the surgical ward, and if patients did not trust other doctors,

10 there were plenty -- there were certainly plenty of Serb doctors who would

11 have been able to take good care of them in accordance with all the

12 professional rules.

13 Q. Thank you. How do you know then, that they refrained from coming

14 to the hospital as patients, people who were of Serb ethnicity? Who told

15 you they were afraid of armed policemen? Who told you, then?

16 A. It was rumoured. I can't say that I came across a patient who

17 said, You know what, I'm not going to come because there are policemen

18 there. No. But this was rumoured. And it is a fact that in May, we had

19 fewer patients in the surgical ward, fewer patients of all ethnic

20 backgrounds.

21 Q. All right. So after May 1991, was the number of Serb patients in

22 the surgical ward significantly lower or did they stop coming altogether?

23 A. The number of such patients was significantly lower but we did

24 have such patients.

25 Q. To make sure that we understand each other -- well, how come there

Page 1022

1 were some if they stopped coming?

2 A. Let us be clear about this. The city of Vukovar was not blocked

3 off at the time. There were no roadblocks and the roads leading to the

4 hospital were fully accessible. My statement perhaps it is not clear on

5 its face but it mostly concerns the patients, Serb patients, from villages

6 surrounding Vukovar rather than those from the city of Vukovar. Those who

7 lived in Vukovar were absolutely able to reach the hospital because there

8 were no roadblocks there.

9 Q. All right. But you will still agree with me that nevertheless,

10 they stopped coming after May 1991?

11 A. Some of them who couldn't come and didn't want to come most

12 likely.

13 Q. I fully appreciate your attempt to stand by your statement but you

14 have to be quite explicit and clear.

15 My question is this: After May 1991, how many Serb patients did

16 you have in the surgical ward? And let us conclude with this topic.

17 A. It is impossible for me to give an answer to a question phrased in

18 those terms. I didn't go around counting Serb patients and Croatian

19 patients, but I'm telling you firmly that we had patients of both

20 ethnicities but fewer of them. As for the influx of new patients from

21 Serbian villages, it was practically impossible.

22 Q. Do you know what in formal terms the National Guards Corps means?

23 A. Most likely precisely what it means, National Guards Corps. What

24 else could it be?

25 Q. Since the Trial Chamber and I, Witness, do not know --

Page 1023

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- including the Prosecution. Would you be so kind as to explain

3 what it means, just in order to know it in specific terms? Is that a

4 military formation?

5 A. You're asking me too much. I'm not a soldier. I can't know

6 whether they belong to a particular specific military formation such as

7 the JNA. At any rate, their name was National Guards Corps, and they were

8 the people who defended Vukovar. I couldn't tell you exactly the formal

9 military formation that they belonged to.

10 Q. Did you ever see a member of ZNG or National Guards Corps?

11 A. No, not lined up in a group, but I saw them as wounded.

12 Q. Since you did see some members, would you please explain to me and

13 the Trial Chamber whether such persons were brought in or came in wearing

14 a military uniform?

15 A. Most of them had camouflage uniforms.

16 Q. Did they have any military insignia?

17 A. I wouldn't be able to say. There probably was an inscription

18 somewhere saying National Guards Corps but I don't remember it. I

19 wouldn't even be able to tell you whether that inscription was on their

20 sleeve or some place else.

21 Q. These formations, their members, were they armed?

22 A. I suppose that they didn't go to defend the city barehanded but I

23 didn't see any weaponry, nor did I go to their positions.

24 Q. Well, what did you hear?

25 A. They had to have weapons, if they are military, then they had to

Page 1024

1 have weapons.

2 Q. I think that you could have answered this in shorter terms, so let

3 us do that in future in order not to waste time.

4 A. All right.

5 Q. Since yesterday, you said that one of the doctors was a member of

6 the Main Staff of the defence of the city, would you please tell us, do

7 you know that National Guards Corps had its main joint command in the city

8 of Vukovar? Are you aware of that?

9 A. Dr. Matos who was the member of the staff conveyed back to us the

10 instructions that pertained to us on transforming a civilian hospital into

11 a hospital that would be at all times prepared for an influx of the

12 wounded.

13 Q. Did you know who was the chief of the National Guards Corps in

14 Vukovar or not?

15 A. No, no. I won't be able to tell you that. I have no idea who

16 held that post during that period of time.

17 Q. Thank you. From the beginning of the conflict that you described,

18 up until the 17th of November 1991, as head nurse, do you know how many

19 members of the ZNG and policemen came to the hospital, were brought into

20 the hospital or came there on their own?

21 A. I don't know the figure right now. It's been 14 years. I

22 wouldn't be able to tell you how many precisely members of the ZNG and

23 policemen came to the hospital.

24 Q. All right. Yesterday you mentioned six soldiers and that's the

25 only number you mentioned yesterday.

Page 1025

1 A. Well, those are the people who spent sometime at the hospital and

2 I was able to get to know them better during that time.

3 Q. All right. Thank you. Did some of the doctors that you had

4 contacts with keep record of members of military formations, ZNG,

5 specifically their military affiliation and so on?

6 A. I think that information was entered into the official register

7 book.

8 Q. Who secured the hospital and -- rather, was hospital secured from

9 the outside?

10 A. There were guards there. I don't know who installed them there in

11 the hospital. I moved very little about the compound of the hospital but

12 I know for a fact that there were guards there. What I saw were the

13 policemen who guarded the entrance leading into the emergency room, but

14 they were not armed. I suppose that the guards who guarded hospital

15 buildings were armed, but I can't claim that with certainty.

16 Q. Thank you. If I were to tell you that director of your hospital,

17 in her testimony here, stated that the outside security of the hospital

18 consisted of members of the ZNG and that policemen provided security

19 inside the building, what would you say? Would you think -- would you

20 contradict that?

21 A. No, I wouldn't. I think that is probably right.

22 Q. So what is right, then? Is it what Vesna Bosanac stated, that the

23 outside security was provided by the members of the ZNG or what you

24 stated, that it was done by policemen?

25 A. I can repeat what I stated.

Page 1026

1 Q. Go ahead.

2 A. I said that the entrance into the emergency room was guarded by

3 unarmed policemen, and just like Dr. Bosanac, I claim that the entire

4 compound of the hospital perimeter was most likely guarded by the members

5 of the ZNG. That makes quite a difference, because the inside area is the

6 area where the patients were, whereas the area outside has nothing to do

7 with that.

8 Q. All right. Mrs. Kolesar, I'm glad we clarified this. Basically,

9 you echoed what Dr. Bosanac said, that the outside security consisted of

10 members of the ZNG who had to be armed. They didn't guard the hospital

11 unarmed?

12 A. I suppose so.

13 Q. Can you tell us why were you assigned a task from the Main Staff,

14 as you told us, to start preparing atomic shelter as early as May 1991?

15 Why as early as that there was a need to reactivate atomic shelter?

16 A. Why? I will tell you. Atomic shelter was used to store bed-linen

17 there. Therefore, it wasn't prepared to be used as an atomic shelter. We

18 had not a single bed installed there and it's quite a task to organise all

19 that. Assumption that things would unfold the way they did unfold, and

20 occasionally we did have sporadic attacks, was absolutely logical. We had

21 to react in this way. Every hospital has to be prepared for events that

22 might unfold and has to ensure that they have safe environment for their

23 patients. Now, as to those who issued that task knew exactly what was

24 going to unfold, I wouldn't be able to tell you that, but my task was to

25 prepare this area for patients who would potentially come there.

Page 1027

1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us specifically who issued that

2 instruction in accordance with which you acted?

3 A. I think it was an instruction of the municipal staff, which was

4 then conveyed to the hospital.

5 Q. Thank you. Do you know how this was structured? Why would an

6 instruction from municipal staff be mandatory for you? Was the workers'

7 council duty-bound to pass a decision or was this instruction mandatory

8 for you on its own?

9 A. Well, I was the person to whom this -- for whom this instruction

10 was mandatory. I was the last link in the chain and I had to do it.

11 Q. You told us about this auxiliary hospital that existed in Borovo

12 Komerc, in the atomic shelter there. Did you know of any other atomic

13 shelters in the city of Vukovar?

14 A. I knew of only one other one, in a neighbourhood called Olnica

15 [phoen]. I didn't visit either of these two shelters, and I regret that.

16 Q. Why?

17 A. Because I didn't see how it was prepared and under what

18 circumstances people lived in those shelters. I only know how people

19 lived in our shelter.

20 Q. All right. In August 1991, did you see two planes of the JNA

21 which were downed, or did you hear of that?

22 A. On Saturday, at around noon, or in the afternoon - I'm not sure -

23 we heard the planes flying above. Since it was possible to watch that, I

24 did observe it. As for the moment when the plane was downed, I didn't see

25 that but I heard it.

Page 1028

1 Q. One or two?

2 A. They said the two planes were downed. You have to realise that

3 all of us talked among ourselves, discussed it, therefore we heard that

4 two planes were downed. The mere idea of two downed planes made me think

5 that something else would ensue.

6 Q. Which was what?

7 A. It was what happened on Sunday.

8 Q. Does that mean that after the two JNA planes shot down, what

9 follows next -- what followed next was a punishment?

10 A. Yes. The way I saw it, what happened the next Sunday was

11 punishment, or at least that was my experience.

12 Q. Do you know the exact date? You're talking about Saturday and

13 Sunday. Which dates are we talking about?

14 A. The Saturday was the 24th of August and the Sunday was the 25th.

15 Q. Thank you. August. Let me check what that means. Ah, August,

16 okay. Do you know who shot down those JNA planes that were flying over

17 the town? Did you hear anything about that?

18 A. I heard but I didn't see.

19 Q. Did anyone boast about that?

20 A. No, not to me. Perhaps there was someone boasting to their mates

21 but I certainly wasn't someone that anyone like that was likely to come to

22 in order to boast about shooting down a plane.

23 Q. No, that's not what I was asking about. I was asking more about

24 something that the Trial Chamber is probably unaware of. Did those planes

25 just drop like that by themselves or were they shot down from someone

Page 1029

1 firing from the ground?

2 A. I don't think there are too many planes that just fall like that.

3 I think they must have been shot down. They must have been engaged in

4 some form of military activity to begin with.

5 Q. You seem crystal clear and perfectly convinced when you were shown

6 your own statement yesterday. I heard that yesterday. You answered,

7 "There were planes flying over and I saw them fall down," and now you're

8 trying to suggest that those planes had in fact been engaging in military

9 -- in some sort of military activity, which you have never suggested so

10 far. I think you're trying to make a link between that and the

11 punishment, as you said, that followed. Does that mean that they weren't

12 actively involved, that they weren't firing over that part of town?

13 A. No, those two planes were not firing on the part of town where I

14 was.

15 Q. Thank you very much. My next question: In early October, you

16 said that the hospital staff brought their relatives to the hospital,

17 which was considered a safe place to be. Would I be right in saying that?

18 A. Yes, by all means. Their houses had been destroyed, and in

19 comparison, the hospital could offer some degree of safety to the

20 children.

21 Q. Did that have to do with the atomic shelter too?

22 A. Yes, of course.

23 Q. What about the atomic shelter at Borovo Komerc? Do you know if

24 there were any ill persons there?

25 A. Yes. There were some ill there, as well as some of our wounded

Page 1030

1 who had healed in the meantime.

2 Q. What did those healed wounded do there exactly?

3 A. They no longer required urgent surgical attention. They had been

4 operated on, there was a wound that required further dressing but not

5 necessarily in the hospital. It could be done in the shelter, so as to

6 make room for new patients in the hospital.

7 Q. Do you know if records were kept in written form of persons who

8 spent some time in the atomic shelter at Borovo Komerc?

9 A. I never saw a single document specifying the number of patients

10 there. Probably the doctors and the nurses who were there did keep some

11 sort of records, but I didn't see any.

12 Q. That means you know nothing about that.

13 A. Precisely so.

14 Q. Please answer yes or no: Did you ever hear that some soldiers of

15 the JNA --

16 MS. TUMA: Your Honour?

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma?

18 MS. TUMA: I would like to object to this kind of questioning from

19 the Defence counsel. The witness should be able to make explanations when

20 she is answering the questions. It's difficult just to have a yes and no

21 answer.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It depends entirely on the question, Mrs. Tuma, and

23 I have been listening each time Mr. Borovic has put that to the witness.

24 I nearly intervened once but the witness handled it herself. Thank you.

25 Mr. Borovic, there are some questions that cannot be answered yes

Page 1031

1 or no. The one that is most typically offered, as a joke, is, "Have you

2 stopped beating your wife?" And if you think what yes or no signifies to

3 that, you will realise it can't be answered yes or no. So it's true that

4 if a witness is avoiding answering a question that is straightforward, you

5 can certainly try to get the witness to commit to yes or no, but you will

6 understand there are occasions when that is not possible. So please try

7 and adjust your questions to take account of that.

8 Thank you.

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I believe

10 that I've been trying very hard so far and I will continue to do so.

11 Q. Did you at any point hear that at Borovo Komerc JNA soldiers years

12 were being treated?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you ever hear that some soldiers who died at Borovo Komerc

15 were not buried but rather burned by ZNG members in order to save money?

16 A. No, I never heard anything like that.

17 Q. What do you know about a neighbourhood known as Mitnica? Have you

18 ever heard of that neighbourhood?

19 A. Of course I have.

20 Q. Can you tell us about where it is?

21 A. It's in the eastern section of Vukovar. I've lived in Vukovar for

22 a very long time, so from my point of view this is a relatively new

23 neighbourhood. I'm not sure about the number of inhabitants. Mostly

24 those are private homes, a handful of shops, they had their own school and

25 this also applies to the period before the war.

Page 1032

1 Q. Thank you. Do you know if there were any military operations in

2 that neighbourhood at the time?

3 A. I don't really know much about that. I do assume, however, that

4 the people who lived in Mitnica or the ZNG, if you like, defended the area

5 from JNA incursions.

6 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether on the 17th of November 1991,

7 large number of members of the ZNG surrendered to the JNA at Mitnica

8 because it was their last remaining strong hold on which occasion they

9 also surrendered a large amount of weapons?

10 A. To me this information was not linked to the 17th of November, or

11 rather, I didn't know that at the time, but I found out later whether I

12 saw footage and saw all of these things on TV.

13 Q. But you can confirm that, though?

14 A. Yes, I can confirm that. I didn't know about the specific amount

15 of weapons but I saw in this footage that each and every soldier

16 surrendered whatever weapons they were carrying on them.

17 Q. Was that the most important stronghold of the ZNG in Vukovar?

18 A. There is not something that I can say. That would imply that I

19 knew more about what the ZNG were doing in specific areas than I actually

20 do.

21 Q. Do you know for what reason the JNA left the hospital as the last

22 place they entered?

23 A. No. I have no idea.

24 Q. Will you agree with me that there is a theory that it was the

25 hospital in actual fact that was the last remaining stronghold of the ZNG?

Page 1033

1 A. I definitely can't agree. I can't say what was happening outside

2 and whether there were any strongholds, as you say, around the hospital

3 but the hospital certainly cannot be included.

4 Q. I think this is a very fair answer, so I won't press the matter.

5 Over the last three months, September, October and November, 1991,

6 according to your information, how many JNA soldiers were treated at the

7 Vukovar Hospital, if you could give us a total?

8 A. I don't know. I couldn't give you a total.

9 Q. Four, three?

10 A. Four, rather. I know Sasa, I know the other two but there were

11 probably other wounded at the time who also required treatment. In

12 addition to Sasa whether there were two, three or four other ones is not

13 something I can really say right now.

14 Q. Thank you. Sasa Jovic, whom you mentioned, do you know on which

15 date he was brought to the hospital?

16 A. I can't remember the exact date.

17 Q. Was that in early or late October?

18 A. It might as well have been early November. I don't think he

19 stayed for over a fortnight but I can't be sure about it.

20 Q. Thank you. If I told you that he had been brought in on the

21 2nd of October and that Dr. Bosanac testified that it was late in October,

22 which of these two would you see as more -- very similar?

23 A. My answer would be I don't think Sasa actually stayed among us for

24 that long. That's the best I can give you. Or perhaps time just flew by.

25 Q. Why was he kept in a separate ward, regardless of the conditions

Page 1034

1 which you described yesterday?

2 A. It wasn't only him. There were two other JNA soldiers.

3 Q. And the reason?

4 A. What I said yesterday, you probably don't have a very accurate

5 idea of what the conditions were for the wounded who lay there. What they

6 were given was comfort.

7 Q. Was that the only reason, their personal comfort?

8 A. Well, there could have been altercations between the two groups of

9 wounded. This was a risk that was real. If you allow me to explain, when

10 their room was shelled and destroyed, on two occasions, they had to share

11 the same rooms with all the other wounded children and women. And the

12 relationship turned out to be quite fair actually. They shared the same

13 cigarettes. They shared the same difficult life that a wounded person

14 lived in those times.

15 Q. Thank you. You told us about this yesterday.

16 Mrs. Kolesar, do you know that after the war, Sasa Jovic, soldier

17 Sasa Jovic became mentally ill?

18 A. How on earth would I know that?

19 Q. What would you say if I told you that Sasa Jovic alongside with

20 the other two soldiers was being kept and guarded, rather, in the basement

21 later in the communal rooms and that he was actually being held there as a

22 hostage because of the international observers?

23 A. Your version is something that I have never heard before, what you

24 are suggesting now.

25 Q. Can you describe Sasa Jovic's injuries?

Page 1035

1 A. No. I think I would much sooner be able to remember the injury

2 sustained by another soldier. I think Trifunovic was the name. He had an

3 injured leg. He was found lying in a house. He had been lying there for

4 two days. He had a serious infection. I remember his injuries with far

5 greater accuracy than those of Sasa Jovic.

6 Q. So you can't say about Sasa Jovic?

7 A. No. I'm no longer able to specify his injuries, whether it was

8 the leg, the arm or something else.

9 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the staff, rather, the headquarters

10 of the hospital's Crisis Staff as its full name reads, was in touch with

11 the JNA in those months, September October and November?

12 A. No, I didn't know that.

13 Q. Fair enough.

14 A. If anyone at all was in touch with them, then it must have been

15 Dr. Bosanac but this is not something that I'm aware of.

16 Q. Who else would be in a position to know this sort of thing except

17 for Dr. Bosanac, or was she alone in a position to have that sort of

18 communication? Do you know?

19 A. No, I don't know that.

20 Q. Did you ever see Dr. Bosanac sending any faxes to anyone?

21 A. I knew that she was dictating fax messages to her clerk. I'm not

22 sure who eventually sent them.

23 Q. And to whom?

24 A. To no one. I wasn't the typist. I'm in no position to say.

25 Q. Thank you. Could you perhaps give us the name of that clerk?

Page 1036

1 A. Yes. Her name is Verica Graf.

2 Q. You were the head nurse. You were moving about the hospital a

3 great deal. You were an important person there after all. Were you ever

4 in the room from which those faxes were being sent?

5 A. No. Dr. Bosanac had her own room.

6 Q. You never once went there?

7 A. Yes. I would go there several times a day, but at the time in

8 1991, I don't think I even knew what a fax machine looked like or whether

9 there was one.

10 Q. Was there one?

11 A. I didn't know. I only got to know what a fax machine looked like

12 several years later when I first started using one.

13 Q. So back then, you weren't able to say, were you?

14 A. I could tell a phone but not a fax.

15 Q. Do you know that Vesna Bosanac at any point in time went

16 elsewhere, left the hospital, to give fax messages to anyone else, be it

17 the JNA or the headquarters?

18 A. No, she never said, "I'm going out now to send a fax."

19 Q. Thank you. If you allow, did Vesna Bosanac ever tell you about

20 going to the municipal staff headquarters?

21 A. I believe she went both to the police building and to the staff.

22 Q. When specifically?

23 A. There was no way I could monitor her whereabouts or her actions or

24 where she was going. I don't know.

25 Q. I am being cautioned to try to speak more slowly. I promise to do

Page 1037

1 my best.

2 You mentioned Bogdan Kuzmic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. He is one of your former employees?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Yesterday, you testified that the JNA tried to prevent other

7 people from entering the hospital who were not members of the JNA. Would

8 I be right in saying that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Am I right in remembering you stating that Kuzmic and

11 Dr. Ivankovic's son still managed to get past the security? Was this an

12 isolated case?

13 A. Those are some persons that I actually saw. I can't say whether

14 there was another entrance or other rooms where somebody else got in.

15 This is not something that I know.

16 Q. Even on that day you were moving about the hospital, I assume,

17 weren't you?

18 A. Yes. Indeed, I was.

19 Q. And those were the only two persons you came across?

20 A. Yes. But the hospital denotes a rather large area.

21 Q. What about Bogdan Kuzmic? Did he treat you in a respectful

22 manner?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was he in fact dealing out cigarettes all over the hospital?

25 A. Yes. He even boasted about being assigned the rank of colonel

Page 1038

1 and -- the rank of lieutenant. He had a scar on the right side of his

2 face. I asked him about it, boldly, in fact. He said he had been

3 wounded, that he had been treated at the VNA in Belgrade, and then he told

4 me who he was looking for, who the nurse was that he was looking for.

5 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs. Kolesar. Just to wrap this up, can we

6 conclude, therefore, that no one with the exception of these two persons

7 jeopardised the security of anyone at the hospital on that day when the

8 two men got through?

9 A. As far as I know, it was the JNA's duty. I believe that's why

10 they were outside the hospital, although I didn't personally see them

11 outside. I believe they assumed this responsibility, namely to provide

12 security for the hospital.

13 Q. Thank you. Now we are coming to a question that you partially

14 answered yesterday. On the 17th of November, 1991 all military operations

15 ceased?

16 A. In our vicinity.

17 Q. Yes, that's right. In your vicinity. On the 18th, as you said,

18 civilians continued streaming into the hospital and other persons as well

19 because for them, the hospital represented an oasis of peace and calm?

20 A. Yes. And safety to some extent.

21 Q. That's right. In your statement put to you by Mr. Vasic, on the

22 same page that you read out from, we can see that you stated there just

23 what you stated here. You stated previously that on the 17th and 18th,

24 there was nothing remarkable going on. People were moving about the

25 hospital freely.

Page 1039

1 My question is: These people moved about the hospital freely,

2 were they able to come out without any hindrance or did you perhaps

3 prohibit them coming out?

4 A. What people do you have in mind?

5 Q. Civilians.

6 A. These civilians did not stay in the same area where the wounded

7 were. So since I told you that the wounded were in the basement, and that

8 this is where we worked, by that I mean our clinics and operating rooms,

9 we were all there around the atomic shelter, the food had to be brought

10 down there so these people went up to the floors above us, to the ground

11 floor and all the way up as far as it was safe. I didn't go up there so I

12 can't tell you whether they went to the surgical ward, but I did see them

13 in the internal diseases ward. I saw them sitting there in all the rooms

14 that were still in good shape. So yes, they were able to move around the

15 hospital but most of them stayed where I just told you they did.

16 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar.

17 My question for you is this: On the 17th, did you stay throughout

18 the day in the hospital or did you perhaps go out?

19 A. Where could I have gone then on that day?

20 Q. What about the 18th? Did you go somewhere then or did you stay in

21 the hospital the whole time?

22 A. In the hospital. I didn't even go out into the yard.

23 Q. Were there any people in the yard?

24 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

25 Q. When you say "there was nothing going on in our part of the town,

Page 1040

1 it was peaceful, it was safe," you stand by that statement, don't you?

2 A. There was no shooting around us. Yes, we could hear sporadic

3 firing somewhere in the distance, but it didn't resemble certainly things

4 that were happening up until then.

5 Q. Nobody fired at the hospital, either on the 17th or the 18th?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So did you understand my question fully? On the 17th and 18th,

8 nobody fired at the hospital?

9 A. That's what I think. I don't know to what extent this is

10 accurate, but that's what I think.

11 Q. Can you claim that it is true?

12 A. I affirm that what I'm saying is true, but I can't know whether

13 somebody fired from a rifle somewhere in the distance. Certainly there

14 was no shelling or bombing going on.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the document --

16 I apologise, just a minute, please.

17 The first document, XX00-0034, Exhibit 34, admitted as Prosecution

18 exhibit. Could the usher please take this document entitled "urgent

19 protest" and could it be shown on the ELMO, please?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it on the screen.

21 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Can the Trial Chamber see it and the

22 OTP? Since this is Exhibit 34, it is very easy to locate the English

23 version.

24 Q. The witness can see the B/C/S version.

25 My question: Can the witness read out the first sentence, just

Page 1041

1 below the heading "urgent protest"?

2 A. "Tanks keep continuously firing at the hospital. At this moment,

3 therefore, 600 patients in the hospital and the same number of civilians

4 awaiting evacuation."

5 Q. Can you see the date?

6 A. Yes. 18th of November 1991, at 0850.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Now, please, can the witness be

9 shown the next document, XX00-0039, Exhibit 36. Could the witness please

10 be shown the B/C/S version on her screen.

11 Q. Could you please zoom in so the witness can see this?

12 A. I have my glasses and I can see this clearly.

13 Q. Would you please read out the first sentence under the heading?

14 A. "Artillery is active again."

15 Q. Is the date clear?

16 A. 10th of November, 1991.

17 Q. Can you please re-read the date? I think you made a mistake. You

18 didn't read out the date as is stated here.

19 A. Perhaps I didn't. I apologise. 18th of November, 1991, at 1010.

20 Q. Could the witness be shown Exhibit 37, please? XX00-0035. B/C/S

21 version needs to be shown to the witness, please.

22 Can you see it on the screen?

23 A. What I just read out?

24 Q. No. The next document.

25 A. No.

Page 1042

1 Q. Can you see it now? You have the B/C/S version don't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Would you be so kind and read out the fifth line from the top? It

4 says here, "Right now."

5 A. "Right now, there are two planes flying very lowly and attacking

6 the city and the hospital, which has been hit with several shells in the

7 course of the morning."

8 Q. Thank you. What you told us yesterday and today regarding

9 artillery attacks on the 17th and 18th, is it true?

10 A. I?

11 Q. You.

12 A. I as a person who was there can tell you that I didn't see this.

13 Q. Thank you. My next question: I don't think I have many more

14 questions left for you. And I would like to turn now to the red cross

15 sign. We heard from you that this sign was placed on the so-called

16 infectious diseases ward and also on the parking lot marked with number 6,

17 representing a part of the yard. If I were to tell you that Dr. Bosanac

18 stated that the sign was placed on one of the auxiliary buildings and that

19 the other sign was placed in the yard between the old and the new

20 building, would you stand by your previous statement or would you have an

21 additional comment?

22 A. I would have an additional comment and would say that there must

23 have been then three signs because I remember the sign in the place which

24 I marked, and I remember the sign which was placed in the then infectious

25 diseases ward which is currently the administration building, because that

Page 1043

1 roof was lower than other roofs, and it was difficult for anyone to place

2 a sign on the highest spot. Therefore, we placed the sign on the visible

3 spot but not necessarily the highest spot. And if there was a sign

4 anywhere else, then it must have been the third one.

5 Q. Did you personally see it anywhere?

6 A. I don't remember that but I can't be firm about it. I believe

7 that it did exist. There must have been more signs than I knew about, but

8 there definitely were signs. The hospital was clearly marked.

9 Q. All right. We will verify whether the signs were placed in those

10 locations.

11 A. All right.

12 Q. The part of the hospital where the infectious diseases ward was,

13 how many storeys did it have?

14 A. The infectious diseases ward and the tuberculosis ward had just

15 one storey.

16 Q. Just one storey?

17 A. One.

18 Q. And then the building where the atomic shelter was with the

19 patients, how many storeys did it have?

20 A. Three.

21 Q. Plus the roof?

22 A. Plus the roof.

23 Q. In the infectious diseases ward, at the time, when you say it was

24 clearly marked, were there any patients there or not?

25 A. I wouldn't be able to say. I personally don't know when the marks

Page 1044

1 were placed. I don't know when it was already at the time when the

2 hospital was subjected to attacks or perhaps that was prepared in advance.

3 Q. So do you know when it was placed?

4 A. No. Therefore, I can't tell you whether there were patients there

5 at that time.

6 Q. Would you be so kind as to tell us when the patients left the

7 infectious diseases ward?

8 A. All of the patients of the hospital left, had to leave their

9 wards, regular wards, on the 25th of August and had to be placed in the

10 atomic shelter.

11 Q. The date was?

12 A. The 25th of August, when the city was bombed. So from the 25th of

13 August on, the patients did not return to any of the wards.

14 Q. All right. Were these signs removed after some time?

15 A. I don't have such information.

16 Q. When you left on the 18th, were there any signs outside?

17 A. Sir --

18 Q. Did you see that?

19 A. It did not even occur to me to pay attention to something like

20 that. Perhaps there were signs, perhaps there weren't. But I was in no

21 position to pay attention to that.

22 Q. If I were to tell you that the witness you know, based on what you

23 stated, Dr. Njavro, said that it was not until late October 1991 that

24 signs were placed, albeit in other locations, not in the ones that you

25 mentioned, and that the sign was removed very soon thereafter, would you

Page 1045

1 say that it was a true statement or do you have additional comments?

2 A. I have no comments. He probably knows better than I do what was

3 going on.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 Q. Since we saw Exhibits 48 and 49 on the ELMO, we spent one whole

6 day watching these exhibits, you drew a very good sketch, I would kindly

7 ask that this sketch be placed on the ELMO once again, the sketch drawn by

8 Witness Kolesar, or perhaps you have Exhibit 49. Therefore, this is

9 Exhibit 49. Can you see it now?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you be able to tell us this: From the surgical ward, as you

12 described it to us, to the Danube, what is the distance in metres?

13 A. I can tell you what it comprises and then you can make your own

14 assessments.

15 Q. From the hospital to the Danube, what is the distance in metres?

16 A. Excuse me, but I don't know that. There is a parking lot in front

17 of the hospital and then comes the road.

18 Q. All right. Let's take it slowly. So we have a parking lot. How

19 large is the parking lot in your view?

20 A. I wouldn't be able to say. And then comes the road. And then a

21 row of houses. And then the Danube.

22 Q. All right. If I were to put the following question to you, across

23 the Danube on the so-called Serbian side, if there were any tanks there,

24 since you were present, tell us in your view from that distance across the

25 river, through the houses, would they be able to see the roof of the

Page 1046

1 infectious diseases ward?

2 A. Well, let me tell you this: I don't know anything about military

3 equipment.

4 Q. Well, if somebody stood next to a tank and looked from the Serbian

5 side across the river, through the houses and all those things that stood

6 in between, because you know this quite well, better than us, because you

7 were there, would this person be able to see the roof of the infectious

8 diseases ward or not?

9 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that. It would be ridiculous of me

10 to say yes, they could or yes, they couldn't. I didn't go there. I

11 didn't go on that side across the river. So I don't know. I also don't

12 know whether the houses obstructed the view or not.

13 Q. If you were in the area between the old and the new building --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So you be in the yard where you stood many times, would you be

16 able to see from that spot the area across the Danube on the other bank of

17 the Danube that I just described to you from that spot so there would be

18 houses, rows of trees in between and so on?

19 A. Perhaps not from the yard but from the reception area.

20 Q. So not from the yard?

21 A. If I stood at the end of the yard, no, I wouldn't.

22 Q. The yard marked with 6?

23 A. That one. I don't think I would be able to see from that area the

24 bank. I would be able to see the woods and the Danube but I don't think I

25 would be able to see further than that.

Page 1047

1 Q. Thank you. Was there any explanation for the fact that this sign

2 was not placed on the main building of the hospital which had three

3 storeys plus a roof but rather the sign was placed on the parking lot and

4 other buildings that were not as visible?

5 A. Sir, you have to put that question to some other witnesses.

6 MS. TUMA: Your Honour, yes, please. The answer to the last

7 question here from the witness shows that it's only speculation from her

8 point of view. She can't give any accurate precise answer. It's only

9 speculations.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It may be her answer may be, "I know nothing about

11 it." She may know something about it.

12 MS. TUMA: Okay.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And the witness has already told us

14 that she in effect knows nothing.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we have two

16 photographs displayed on the ELMO, please? I will then disclose the

17 meaning behind this exercise. If the usher could please help me out.

18 First, the colour photograph and then the next one. We can't see it on

19 our screens. I said first the coloured one, please. Thank you.

20 Q. Can you see it now, Mrs. Kolesar?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is this what the hospital looked like back in 1991?

23 A. For the most part, yes.

24 Q. The same roof, the same shape, I mean?

25 A. Yes, more or less the same shape. But you could put it that way.

Page 1048

1 It was like this.

2 Q. Could you now take the pointer, please, and indicate the location

3 of the infectious diseases ward? If we can see it in the photograph.

4 A. No, we can't. It's to the east of what is shown in the

5 photograph.

6 Q. If we could please zoom out a little bit so that we can see more

7 of the area.

8 A. It's to the east and you can't see it. You can't see it in the

9 photograph. You can't even see a section of the old building.

10 Q. If we zoom out a bit more?

11 A. No, you just can't see it. This is just the new building of the

12 hospital.

13 Q. Can we move this to the left, please? Because in my photograph it

14 can actually be seen.

15 A. I see the emergency building here.

16 Q. Very well. Was the infectious diseases ward in that area?

17 A. Yes. But it was a separate building behind this one, behind the

18 emergency building. There was the infectious diseases ward and there was

19 the TBC ward.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show this

21 photograph too? This has a broader view of the scene.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think this is more use than

23 the previous one.

24 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Could you use the felt pen, please, to mark the infectious

Page 1049

1 diseases ward?

2 A. I am now able to tell you that this is the side of the hospital

3 facing the Danube. To my left where you can see these cars is the

4 emergency ward. Just behind it there is a row of buildings, and one of

5 them is the infectious diseases ward, but you can't see it.

6 Q. Can you please just mark the spot that you're indicating now?

7 A. This is the emergency ward.

8 Q. Number 1, please. Put number 1 right there?

9 A. The emergency ward.

10 Q. What's the distance to the infectious diseases ward?

11 A. Just a minute, please, sir. I'm talking about the -- I'm talking

12 about the entire diameter of the emergency ward, and there is another five

13 to ten metres behind it and then you have the infectious diseases ward.

14 Q. Would you be so kind as to tell us the distance between the main

15 building of the hospital and the infectious diseases ward?

16 A. It's very difficult to specify but I'll try to describe it and

17 then you can see for yourself. You can figure it out. Look at this

18 stretch between the hospital and the emergency ward and then add the same

19 stretch to the infectious diseases ward.

20 Q. Place number 2 where you think the second red cross sign was

21 displaced,

22 A. I'm indicating the one that I knew about.

23 Q. Could you use number 2, please, to mark that?

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can we now have the black and white

Page 1050

1 photograph displayed on the ELMO, please?

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this may be a

3 convenient time to break because I have a series of questions to continue

4 with, or do you think I should press on now?

5 JUDGE PARKER: I think that's a good time, Mr. Borovic.

6 [Microphone not activated].

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I think that's a good time to break, Mr. Borovic.

10 We'll return at ten minutes past 4.00.

11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Before I continue, can we go back to that first photograph, if

17 that can please be displayed on the ELMO.

18 JUDGE PARKER: That is the second photograph. Is that the one you

19 meant, Mr. --

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The first that I showed.

21 Yes, you're right, Your Honour. Thank you.

22 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, if it's no trouble, could you please place the Roman

23 numeral I down the middle?

24 A. Down the middle? What does that mean?

25 Q. Anywhere in the middle. At the top of the building. The Roman

Page 1051

1 numeral I, please. Above the building, if you can, outside the

2 photograph. The Roman numeral I. Thank you.

3 JUDGE PARKER: By the building, you mean the main hospital

4 building?

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That's precisely

6 what I mean.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's also the only one we can

8 see in this photograph, isn't it?

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. That's right. We have analysed this photograph, and I now move

11 that it be admitted into evidence, this photograph that is now bearing the

12 Roman numeral I.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 50.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now have the other

16 colour photograph displayed on the ELMO.

17 Q. And if Mrs. Kolesar could please make an effort and place the

18 Roman numeral II in the same spot, down the middle, above the hospital?

19 A. But that's a different angle now.

20 Q. We are just marking the photograph.

21 A. Very well.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I move that this photograph be

24 admitted.

25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

Page 1052

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be --

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I was about to explain about the

3 numbers, I and II, but I believe the witness has already provided

4 sufficient explanations.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number 51.


7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] 51.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, 51.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] In order to be perfectly clear and

11 eliminate any further misunderstanding if the witness could please explain

12 what the numbers I and II stand for in this photograph that has

13 been marked as an exhibit, number 1 and number 2.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 1 is the building seen from

15 the opposite river bank of the Danube, the other face or side of the

16 hospital. I can't say exactly, but I think that is the southern side of

17 the hospital, if you mean the first photograph.

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. We have examined on the first one but now I'm talking about the

20 Roman numeral --

21 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... that you have

22 marked with the number 1 immediately outside what was the emergency ward?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

24 JUDGE PARKER: What is that building?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The emergency. This is the

Page 1053

1 emergency ward, if that's what you're asking about. On photograph

2 number 2, to my left, marked as number 1.

3 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Thank you. What about number 2?

5 A. This is number 2, isn't it? The Roman numeral II?

6 Q. No.

7 JUDGE PARKER: You have marked with an Arabic 2 another sign,

8 another location. Am I correct in understanding it's where the red cross

9 sign was placed, a red cross sign?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the Arabic numeral 2, but I

11 was told to put the Roman numeral II above the building. So I'm not sure

12 what -- why this misunderstanding occurred.

13 JUDGE PARKER: But you have also put an Arabic 2 in another

14 position, and is the Arabic 2 where a red cross sign was located?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The red cross sign? One of the red

16 cross signs was where the number 2 is.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And the Arabic -- sorry, the Roman II

18 is just above the main building?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

21 You have been of great assistance to both the Defence team and the

22 witness.

23 Could we now please have the third photograph, the black and white

24 photograph, displayed on the ELMO?

25 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, could you please now use this enlarged photograph --

Page 1054

1 first of all, can you put the Roman numeral III there above the building?

2 And I'll use Arabic numerals to mark where you think the red cross signs

3 were placed?

4 A. I would just like to have an explanation before I do that. When

5 was this photograph taken? If someone could please specify the time that

6 this photograph dates to.

7 Q. You mean whether this photograph is consistent with the area as

8 you're familiar with it?

9 A. Yes, precisely. But if I may be allowed to ask a question, I wish

10 to know when this photograph was taken. I have reasons for asking that.

11 Q. Well, I would ask the witness to please respect the procedure. I

12 am asking the questions here. If you require any further explanations,

13 you can no doubt obtain them from the OTP. Could you please be so kind in

14 as far as --

15 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, Mr. Borovic, that won't be good enough.

16 Are you, Mrs. Kolesar, able to confirm that that is a photograph

17 which shows the hospital, or part of it, as it was in 1991? Or are you

18 not able to confirm that?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's put it like this: Now that

20 I've had a closer look, just next to the hospital building there is

21 another smaller building, which was built later on, between 1991 and 1995.

22 This is the administration building, as we call it. That was during the

23 Krajina regime. The hospital was renovated. Why did I ask the question?

24 Because the infectious diseases ward is still here, and the roof has

25 collapsed so you can't see it. The building is still a ruin and that's

Page 1055

1 what the photograph shows, but that's not how it was in 1991.

2 MS. TUMA: Your Honour, I would like to object here, please.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mrs. Tuma.

4 MS. TUMA: As the witness is asking here, we do need to know when

5 this photo was taking and the source from the Defence.

6 JUDGE PARKER: I'm exploring that at the moment, Mrs. Tuma, and

7 I'm intervening to try to speed things up in the identification of these

8 photographs. And I've accepted the first two because the witness readily

9 identified what was shown. She is hesitated about this so I have

10 intervened more clearly.

11 I understand from your evidence, Mrs. Kolesar, that you recognise

12 in this photograph buildings which either were not there or are not as

13 they were in 1991.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Are you able, Mr. Borovic, to indicate,

16 then, whether you accept that it is a photograph taken after 1991?

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that I have

18 treated the witness fairly so far. I will continue to do so. We obtained

19 this photograph from the OTP pursuant to Rule 65. The OTP should be in a

20 position to know that they were the ones who sent us this photograph

21 pursuant to that rule. It's not a photograph that I brought up. I will

22 of course be accepting any comments that the witness may wish to make

23 about the buildings that may have been built in the meantime, but not --

24 or are no longer in their original state. The witness has confirmed that

25 the hospital is just as it was, but whatever else she marks, I, as Defence

Page 1056

1 counsel, will accept with no further objections.

2 MS. TUMA: Your Honour?

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma?

4 MS. TUMA: The question was from Their Honours if this photograph

5 was taken after 1991 and not if that has been provided by the OTP or not.

6 So -- and I haven't heard that answer yet from the Defence counsel.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Well, Mrs. Tuma, thank you very much. I'll be

8 dealing with what concerns the Chamber.

9 Are you in a position, Mr. Borovic, to indicate the date by year

10 when the photograph was taken?

11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are in the courtroom

12 now, and I have explained that we obtained this photograph from the OTP.

13 Since both parties are present, this may be a good chance for the claim

14 Chamber inquire with the OTP as to when this photograph was taken.

15 I didn't take the photograph myself. They were the ones who gave

16 us this photograph. I don't think there is anything controversial about

17 the area as shown in the photograph except for this one building that the

18 witness seems not to be able to recognise. I, however, believe that this

19 is no matter of relevance to the proceedings here.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am able to identify every single

21 building in this photograph.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Please, if you would wait, Mrs. Kolesar.

23 Mr. Borovic, I was tempted to remind you of your questions to the

24 witness when you sought to get a yes or no answer. And by the sound of

25 it, your answer is no to my question. That is, you don't know when the

Page 1057

1 photograph was taken. There is nothing critical about that. You were

2 given a photograph by the OTP and you're trying to use it. I just want to

3 know whether you can help us with the question when it was taken. And I

4 understand that you cannot. I expect at the moment that Mrs. Tuma may not

5 be able to.

6 MS. TUMA: Your Honour, we are not using from the OTP side and

7 from the Prosecution side that exact photograph as evidence.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Again, yes or no.

9 MS. TUMA: Well --


11 MS. TUMA: That's correct.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We are getting into the habit of

13 knowing each other, and I think you will start to see that you can without

14 any concern be prepared to respond to the Chamber fairly briefly and

15 frankly. And then we'll all get along a little more quickly and readily.

16 That being so, Mr. Borovic, as the witness recognises the main

17 building, the Chamber would be prepared to allow you to continue

18 questioning, but on the basis that this is a building which, on the face

19 of it -- is a photograph which on the face of it depicts the hospital and

20 its surroundings taken at some time later than 1991 and it's unknown when

21 it was taken.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE PARKER: And what has been identified so far is that one

24 building to the right of the photograph, a single storey building, partly

25 behind the main hospital, was constructed, in the witness's understanding,

Page 1058

1 later than 1991, and that a building in the left of the photograph, a

2 little below the centre, can be seen really as simply a few remains of a

3 structure rather than the building as it was in 1991. Are they the two

4 significant differences that you see, Mrs. Kolesar?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they are. Precisely, because

6 on -- in -- on this building, which is a former infectious diseases ward,

7 which I was about to mark, there is no roof. The building is destroyed

8 and the roof cannot be seen.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

10 Well, now, Mr. Borovic, having, I hope, cleared the air and

11 clarified the situation a little, would you like to have the witness mark

12 some things?

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The

14 location that the witness showed, and when requested by the Trial Chamber

15 explained, are the remains of the former infectious diseases ward, and I

16 would kindly ask the witness to mark it with Arabic numeral 1.

17 It cannot be seen on the screen.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We will do it this way.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Make sure you do put in the same spot so that we do not have two

21 marks.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. It can be seen well. It's

23 just that the background is dark.

24 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Would you please circle the number now as I'm learning myself.

Page 1059

1 Thank you.

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. Now please mark the newly constructed building with Arabic

4 numeral 2.

5 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated].

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

7 JUDGE PARKER: It is much easier to see with a red pen on this

8 background.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the building which I

10 described as the newly constructed building. This is the building I'm

11 marking now.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I move to this have photograph

15 exhibited, thank you.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Are you content with that, Mrs. Tuma, on the basis

17 that has been indicated?

18 MS. TUMA: No objections to that, Your Honour, thank you.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. It will be received.

20 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be Exhibit number 52, Your Honour.

21 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. I wanted you to leave this last photograph on the ELMO, please,

23 because here comes the next question related to that.

24 Mrs. Kolesar, would you be able to explain where was the police

25 building in Vukovar in relation to this building, in which direction?

Page 1060

1 A. The police building was across from number 1.

2 Q. Could you indicate that with an arrow.

3 MS. TUMA: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma, yes.

5 MS. TUMA: Do we know what time frame we are talking about here?

6 JUDGE PARKER: It hasn't been made clear, but I assume Mr. Borovic

7 meant 1991.

8 MS. TUMA: Well, I don't know.

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Mrs. Tuma, we are now referring to

10 the only period of interest in these proceedings, which is 1991, August,

11 September, October and November of 1991.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you both.

13 MS. TUMA: Thank you.

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Would you please now indicate with an arrow in which direction

16 from the hospital the police station was located?

17 A. You mean to indicate the direction with the arrow?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Here is my explanation. The first building across from the

20 hospital was the Court building. Next to it was the police building. So

21 the two buildings were together. The first one next to the hospital was

22 the Court and the next one was the police building.

23 Q. Please be so kind and mark it with a number 3. We accepted your

24 explanation as to where police building was located.

25 A. And the court building, because I have to stress that this is the

Page 1061

1 Court building and the police building.

2 Q. We accept everything you say.

3 Now, for the record, in this exhibit that has been admitted into

4 evidence, the witness marked as number 3 the police building. We will not

5 be needing this photograph any longer. Thank you.

6 I have now two more questions remaining.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, Mr. Borovic, so that the record is not

8 confused, the witness marked with an arrow the direction in which the

9 police and court buildings were to be found. She didn't mark the actual

10 location of those buildings as they are not shown on the photograph. Your

11 last words indicated that she marked the building. She only marked the

12 direction. Thank you.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] You are perfectly right. I

14 apologise, Your Honours. That's precisely what I meant, that the arrow

15 should be marked with number 3.

16 Q. Dr. Bosanac, as the hospital director, did she spend the whole day

17 in the hospital?

18 A. More or less, yes. From the morning until as long as she needed

19 to stay there, depending on the day, but definitely until late evening

20 hours.

21 Q. And after late evening hours, where did she go?

22 A. Since she lived nearby she went to her apartment or, rather, into

23 the house of her parents.

24 Q. Did she go there on foot?

25 A. I wouldn't be able to say that. I heard her steps normally as she

Page 1062

1 was leaving. Sometimes I was able to see her. Now, as to how she

2 proceeded from then on, whether she went on foot or whether there was a

3 car transporting her, I don't know.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma.

5 MS. TUMA: Excuse me again for interrupting, but again it's only

6 speculations from the witness. I raised that earlier.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I wouldn't say there is anything speculative there.

8 She says she heard steps leaving normally, but then from there on, she has

9 no idea.

10 MS. TUMA: Okay.

11 JUDGE PARKER: That's the effect of the evidence.

12 Carry on, Mr. Borovic.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Did Vesna Bosanac have her own private car?

15 A. I don't know. I don't know where she would keep it if she had

16 one.

17 Q. Does that mean that she didn't have one?

18 A. I don't know. I wouldn't be able to say. You have to put that

19 question to Dr. Bosanac. You have to ask her whether she had one, where

20 she kept it, and whether she drove it. I don't know that, and I don't

21 think I need to know that.

22 Q. Thank you. In addition to Dr. Vesna Bosanac, did anybody else go

23 in late evening hours home to sleep or was she the only one who had such

24 an opportunity?

25 A. I can't say that either. Actually, if somebody lived really close

Page 1063

1 to the hospital and if that building was still intact, then, yes, they

2 could go home to check what their house looked like and so on, but I don't

3 think that people went home to sleep.

4 Q. Nobody except Vesna Bosanac?

5 A. I really can't say anything about that. But I have to add this,

6 although you didn't ask about this, and say that there is a big difference

7 between spending just a few hours in your own bed and sleeping in the

8 premises where we slept.

9 Q. My next question: Do you know whether she went home or do you

10 just guess that she did?

11 A. I suppose that she went home because she would come to work in the

12 early morning hours. As soon as we opened for business, she would come to

13 work.

14 Q. Since you supposed that she went home, do you think it possible,

15 so my question was whether you allow for this possibility, do you think

16 that in the late evening hours she perhaps went to the Main Staff?

17 A. Sir, I truly didn't follow her movements except for the steps that

18 I would hear in the corridor.

19 Q. All right. Thank you, Mrs. Kolesar.

20 As the head nurse, did you ever hear of poisonous gases?

21 A. I learned about them in secondary school and in the nursing

22 school.

23 Q. Did you treat anybody for poisonous gases in those days?

24 A. I really can't say. We probably did. I can tell you about my

25 personal experience. We all started suffocating after a shell fell, and I

Page 1064

1 couldn't tell you whether that was a poisonous gas shell or not because I

2 have no experience in that. But I can tell you that it was something

3 peculiar and that if there was that one case, then perhaps there were

4 other cases as well.

5 Q. Since you told us that you learned about such gases at school, do

6 you know that when a poison gas missile is fired and when it lands in the

7 place, such as the hospital, it has to cause casualties and fatalities?

8 A. I don't know about that.

9 Q. Well, what kind of effects do such shells produce?

10 A. I really wouldn't be able to tell you. I forgot a lot of things,

11 not just the effects of poisonous gases.

12 Q. Did you see any person treated for poison gas, intoxication?

13 A. I can't tell you what a person affected by poison gas, poisonous

14 gas looks like so I won't be able to answer your question.

15 Q. My next question is: Did you treat, in the hospital, anyone

16 suffering consequences from the so-called phosphorus bombs?

17 A. I don't know what kind of effects a phosphorus bomb can produce,

18 but I did see a lady who was wounded, and that was probably the first and

19 the last such case that I would ever encounter. I saw a lady who arrived

20 in the hospital with burns and with hair on fire. We just couldn't put

21 the fire out.

22 Q. Was that Silvana Ivankovic?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. We don't need to go into that because we've already heard about

25 that.

Page 1065

1 A. So you heard everything. Is she was on the stretchers. We could

2 see her hair on fire, and we could only cut her hair but do nothing else.

3 And even throw we kept cutting her hair, her hair kept smoking.

4 Q. Was that the only person with such injuries?

5 A. The only one that I saw.

6 Q. Do you know what a Durandal bomb is? Have you ever heard of it?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Have you heard of so-called cluster bombs?

9 A. Yes, I have.

10 Q. After the war, or from textbooks?

11 A. I heard about them, and I know that it was said that there were

12 cluster bombs in Vukovar. I personally didn't see one, but later on I saw

13 them in the attack on Zagreb.

14 Q. In the hospital, there were no such cluster bombs; is that right?

15 A. I couldn't say. I couldn't tell you whether there were any in the

16 yard.

17 Q. Did you see them?

18 A. I personally didn't see them but I can't claim that there were

19 none.

20 Q. Can I conclude that nobody told you that there were such bombs?

21 A. Nobody said anything to me.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

25 Mr. Lukic? Mr. Bulatovic?

Page 1066

1 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Good afternoon to

2 everyone.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Bulatovic:

4 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, I am attorney-at-law Bulatovic, one of the Defence

5 counsel of Mr. Sljivancanin.

6 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please put

7 back on the ELMO Exhibit 52, the black and white photograph? Because I

8 will have several questions that will then lead to further questions about

9 the testimony of Mrs. Kolesar.

10 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, when asked by my learned friend Borovic, you marked

11 certain locations in this photograph. You marked as number 1 the remains

12 or the ruins that most likely represent the remains of the infectious

13 diseases ward?

14 A. Not most likely, but definitely.

15 Q. All right. Before it was destroyed, how many storeys did the

16 infectious diseases ward have?

17 A. It was an L-shaped building. It had a ground floor which then

18 became the first floor.

19 Q. All right. So this section of the building, which was on the

20 ground floor, could you indicate in the photograph where it was located?

21 A. Immediately behind the building of the emergency ward, behind the

22 renovated emergency ward building, you can see a part of the infectious

23 diseases ward, which then grows into the first storey, where the

24 tuberculosis ward is. So it starts as a ground floor building and then

25 becomes a building with one floor.

Page 1067

1 Q. Where was the red cross sign placed?

2 A. On the highest part of the roof which was the first floor of that

3 building where the TBC ward was located.

4 Q. The height of that roof where the sign was placed, was it the same

5 as the roof of the emergency ward building?

6 A. It had to be higher because the emergency ward building is a

7 single-storey building with just a ground floor.

8 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, can we see the old hospital building in this

9 photograph?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Could you use an arrow to mark the direction, the general

12 direction, of the old hospital building in this photograph, please?

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. Would you be kind enough to mark this direction by using number 4?

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Tell us, please, what is the distance between the new hospital

17 building and the old hospital building, given that we can't see it in the

18 photograph?

19 A. It's quite plain in fact, although we can't see the actual

20 building. Although we can't see the actual building, the distance is --

21 you can imagine it to be the same distance as to the edge of this

22 photograph. What that means in terms of metres is not something that I

23 can say now, but the old building might be here, and this is the yard, the

24 courtyard, between the two buildings.

25 Q. If I understand you correctly, it's located near the number 4?

Page 1068

1 A. Yes, of course. That's what we used to mark the old building.

2 And the Court yard across would be about the same distance as between

3 these two, the new building and the edge of the photograph which is where

4 the old building begins.

5 Q. Thank you. Can you indicate on this photograph the part of the

6 hospital that was above the atomic shelter, which part was that?

7 A. There is nothing above the atomic shelter. There is the yard.

8 Maybe a part of the pathology ward, which you can see here, it's also a

9 more recent building. As for the atomic shelter, it's here, roughly

10 speaking. I put a dot there. Therefore, it's between the old hospital

11 building and the new one. You can only see part of the underground

12 corridor from outside. There is a lot of greenery there now, so you can't

13 see it. There is a structure above with glass. And the underground

14 corridor connects the old hospital building and the new hospital building.

15 The main part of the atomic shelter faces the pathology building.

16 Q. The place where you put the dot, where you said the atomic shelter

17 was, can you put a number 5 there?

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Thank you. You said the pathology building was a more recent

20 building?

21 A. Yes. It was built between 1991 and 1997.

22 Q. But was it there in 1991 at the time relevant to this case?

23 A. It was not within the perimeter of the hospital and there was no

24 pathology ward to begin with. It was in the same room as the cytology

25 ward and the post-mortems were conducted in the city graveyard.

Page 1069

1 Q. Can we then agree back in 1991, in August, September and October,

2 this pathology building was not in existence, the one we can see in the

3 photograph?

4 A. Yes, that's right, it wasn't there.

5 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, I'll ask you about something that my learned friend

6 Mr. Vasic as well as my learned friend Mr. Borovic have already brought

7 up. You worked as head nurse. Is that for the surgery ward or for the

8 entire hospital?

9 A. The surgery ward.

10 Q. If I understand you correctly, in that official capacity, you were

11 also a member of the hospital's Crisis Staff?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. What about the other hospital wards? Did they too have their own

14 head nurses?

15 A. Yes, indeed.

16 Q. Can you explain the criterion, if there was one, for you to become

17 a member of the hospital's Crisis Staff, just because you were head nurse?

18 A. I can only talk about my job. The task of the Crisis Staff was to

19 provide an improvised area and put equipment there. Can you imagine the

20 head nurse of the paediatric ward setting up an operations theatre? It

21 strikes me as logical that I, as the head nurse of the surgery ward, was

22 in charge of that and not someone else.

23 Q. My question was a plain one. I did not require any further

24 comments. Did you have regular meetings of the Crisis Staff?

25 A. Yes. There were regular meetings of the Crisis Staff, once or

Page 1070

1 twice a week, depending. It depended on the situation we were facing. At

2 each and every meeting there were reports on the tasks performed, reports

3 concerning any supplies that we were missing and the general situation.

4 Q. So you analysed what had gone on in the period leading to that

5 meeting and you planned tasks for what was to follow?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How many members did the Crisis Staff have; do you remember?

8 A. I can't remember the specific number, but I can tell you all the

9 persons who I know were there. The hospital director was there.

10 Dr. Ivankovic, the chief of surgery. Our head nurse. The hospital's head

11 nurse, that is. I was there and probably some of the surgeons, but I

12 can't remember their names. Maybe there was someone from gynaecology but

13 I can't remember.

14 Q. You had a head nurse for the entire hospital?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was her name, please?

17 A. Jozefina Semic.

18 Q. At those Crisis Staff meetings what was -- whatever was analysed

19 in all the reports, were any records kept? Were minutes taken of all

20 these things that were going on?

21 A. I really can't say. I was there. I was physically present. But

22 I don't know whether anyone actually took minutes. There probably is one

23 at every meeting, but I don't know whether they actually did and who the

24 minutes were then given to.

25 Q. Did anyone from the town's Crisis Staff attend any of these

Page 1071

1 hospital Crisis Staff meetings?

2 A. Perhaps Dr. Matos. I'm not sure if on a regular basis or just on

3 and off. I can't remember.

4 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, do you remember if at those meetings of the hospital

5 Crisis Staff there was ever discussion of measures that had to be taken in

6 accordance with the preparation plan or preparedness plan adopted by the

7 Republic of Croatia?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Did you ever hear that a package of measures had been adopted by

10 the Republic of Croatia?

11 A. No. I was in no position to know and I would not have had any

12 reason to know.

13 Q. I'm asking you as a member of the hospital's Crisis Staff. You

14 had been given an order, as far as I understand, to prepare the atomic

15 shelter. You were expecting an influx of wounded persons. Did you know

16 of any plans that existed in that same framework?

17 A. No. We just had to make sure we knew how we could do things fast

18 and set up makeshift rooms in the hospital, where people could be operated

19 on, where they could have their wounds dressed and so on and so forth.

20 That was our main objective. That was our remit, to get the rooms ready

21 for whatever purpose we believed we could use them and that was my task.

22 There is what I had to worry about along with the chief surgeon.

23 Q. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it you suggested that the old

24 building and the new hospital building were connected by the underground

25 corridor; is that right?

Page 1072

1 A. The atomic shelter is midway through or along that corridor. The

2 corridor itself is an unsafe place. The walls are not as thick as those

3 of an atomic shelter. It is simply an underground corridor connecting the

4 two buildings, the new building and the old building. Before the war, it

5 was also used to connect the two buildings. In the old buildings, you had

6 the dirty linen room, and it was also used to transport patients from one

7 building to the other for their regular medical examinations. It was a

8 line of communication, as it were, between the two buildings.

9 Q. In the months we are talking about, August, September, October,

10 and November, could this corridor be used to get from one building to the

11 other?

12 A. Of course.

13 Q. Were there patients in the old hospital building?

14 A. Yes. Until the 25th of August, which is when they were moved to

15 the atomic shelter. And I must say the patients from the psychiatry ward,

16 because there was no room for them, were put up in the basement of the old

17 building.

18 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, my colleague Mr. Borovic showed you the appeals on

19 behalf of the medical centre that were signed by the hospital director,

20 Mrs. Vesna Bosanac. Do you personally know who these appeals were being

21 sent to?

22 A. Now that I've had an opportunity to look at them, I do know, but

23 at the time they were being sent, I had no idea.

24 Q. You've talked about this already in answer to my colleague

25 Mr. Borovic's questions. However, a number of things remain unclear. How

Page 1073

1 many times did you actually enter the room occupied by the director of the

2 hospital, Mrs. Vesna Bosanac?

3 A. Which point in time are you referring to?

4 Q. I'm asking about those four months, August, September, October and

5 November, until the 20th of November.

6 A. You could always go there and see her if you had a reason. If

7 there was something that I needed to ask, are we moving this or that

8 patient anywhere, that sort of thing, I always had access to her, and I

9 could have come in and asked at any time.

10 Q. You said there was a telephone in her room?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was there just one or several?

13 A. I really can't say. I can't commit myself. I saw one, and I

14 don't remember another phone being there.

15 Q. In this period, the four months that we are talking about, did you

16 know that the phone lines were in good working order or if --

17 A. I think they were in good working order and operational. I think

18 there was only this one time throughout the entire period that I could

19 speak to my children, but I suppose that the lines were in good working

20 order until the very end.

21 Q. Do you know that the lines ever broke down? Is this something

22 that you were aware of, the phone lines, I mean?

23 A. Perhaps but I certainly wasn't aware of that.

24 Q. In addition to this telephone line or connection that was in

25 Mrs. Bosanac's room, was there another phone line in any other part of the

Page 1074

1 hospital?

2 A. I don't know. There was none where I was. Maybe somewhere in the

3 old building and somewhere in one of the upper floors, there was another

4 phone line but the answer is I don't know.

5 Q. Let me go back to these Crisis Staff meetings, the hospital Crisis

6 Staff meetings. Were there any agreements at any of these meetings or

7 were any tasks given or a decision made that someone should be informed

8 about the situation in the hospital so that the appeals being sent out may

9 represent a summary of a -- any agreements or decisions reached or taken

10 at Crisis Staff meetings?

11 A. That may be the case. We may have discussed that, but I just

12 don't know. I'm sorry, but I don't know.

13 Q. In addition to the telephone line, was there perhaps a radio link

14 being used at the hospital, a police radio link or a military radio link,

15 is this something you noticed?

16 A. No. I was not aware of any such thing being used.

17 Q. Was there a teleprinter link between the hospital and --

18 A. Sorry for interrupting. I can tell you that there was a computer

19 that was used for our database. Our clerk recorded the names of the

20 wounded and then she would pass them on to someone. We had a computer at

21 the time. You might like to know that.

22 Q. Where was this computer?

23 A. It was -- well, I can't say. I'm not sure where it was at first

24 but later on it was in Dr. Bosanac's room.

25 Q. Do you know when it was brought there?

Page 1075

1 A. No. I don't know. At some point in the meantime. Perhaps it

2 used to be at first in the room that our clerk occupied and later on it

3 was in Dr. Bosanac's room. When there was a risk of the clerk's room

4 being hit by a shell, it was probably taken to Vesna Bosanac's room.

5 Q. Do you know whether it was acquired?

6 A. I don't know. I suppose after we had gone to the basement.

7 Q. Do you know who it was obtained from, who it was acquired from or

8 provided by?

9 A. I don't know. To be quite honest, that was the first time that

10 clerk typed on the computer. I have no idea who set it up. I have no

11 idea who was able to use that computer. I know that our clerk did, and

12 that's why it was her duty to enter the information that was then passed

13 on. When did it start operating? Whether on the 25th of August or later,

14 I can't say.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please try not to overlap.

16 A. As I've said before, Mrs. Verica Graf.

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. A while ago you told us that information was entered into the

19 computer and passed on somewhere.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where and to whom; do you know that?

22 A. No, I don't know. They were probably passed on by computer, and

23 all I can say is that now we have copies of those reports, and that's also

24 all that we have on the patients, when they were admitted, who was

25 wounded, what the wounds were, their names and so on and so forth.

Page 1076

1 Not -- we don't have information for every single day. I can't

2 say why certain dates are missing and the others are there. It would be

3 fine thing indeed if we had everything. We would be much the wiser for

4 it. This way the situation we are facing is very difficult because we are

5 using bits and scraps and pieces, trying to imagine the larger picture.

6 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, you said that you don't have information for each

7 day. Do you know what was the last day for which you have this data?

8 A. I can't tell you that off the top of my mind. I can't remember

9 now. Perhaps the 17th of November. Perhaps the 16th. Perhaps I am

10 wrong. But most likely almost towards the very end.

11 Q. You said that you saw the documentation which was sent via

12 computer link?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When did you see it and where? When was the first time and when

15 was the last time?

16 A. I wouldn't know when I saw it the first time. Once we

17 reintegrated, we were able to get this data because we were also able to

18 store it in our hospital. So it is in our possession. As for where we

19 received it from, I really don't know exactly but most likely it was a

20 centre which collected data on the wounded. I don't know the exact name

21 of this centre but anyway we received this material and we have copies.

22 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, when was last time you saw this documentation?

23 A. The last time I saw it, well, personally, I can see it every day.

24 It is available to me. I don't know how to answer your question. It is

25 available, which means that it is in the hospital and can be inspected

Page 1077

1 every day or seen.

2 Q. You are retired?

3 A. Yes, I am retired.

4 Q. Since when?

5 A. Since 1996. But since 1997, I've been working as a contractor in

6 the hospital. For a while I worked as head nurse, and now I am employed

7 in the office collecting information on the wounded.

8 Q. Data on the wounded, ill, briefly all patients of the hospital can

9 be found in that database?

10 A. Unfortunately not on all of the patients. We only have partial

11 data.

12 Q. Can you please tell me which data is missing. Data on which group

13 of patients?

14 A. It does not pertain to any particular group. The data that is

15 missing is related to certain dates. The dates when e-mail was not sent

16 via computers.

17 Q. I'll ask you this: Do you have information about the fact that

18 data was sent via this computer link even in the last days, sent to the

19 centre this you described?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 Q. You saw this computer?

22 A. I did. I think it is still -- it was still used by those who

23 remained behind.

24 Q. Did you see a fax machine in any office of the hospital building?

25 A. I have already stated that at the time I personally didn't know

Page 1078

1 what a fax machine looked like. I don't remember seeing anything else

2 except for a computer and a telephone.

3 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, based on everything you said, may we agree on one

4 issue? This is something that my learned friends asked you about as well.

5 Based on your recollection, the 17th of November was the last day when any

6 kind of missiles landed on the hospital?

7 A. It is my testimony that what we experienced on the 16th and

8 the 15th did not happen on the 17th. We didn't hear the same kind of

9 noises we used to hear prior to that. Now, as to whether perhaps there

10 was some shooting around, that's possible, but at any rate, what happened

11 on that day was not remarkable, not terrible.

12 Q. You said how you received information that an evacuation was to be

13 carried out on the 19th?

14 A. I think we received that information on the 18th.

15 Q. Yes. On the 18th. Was it in the evening hours?

16 A. Most likely. But I didn't have to be the case.

17 Q. Was it in the afternoon?

18 A. Could be in the afternoon. We had to prepare lists.

19 Q. Yes. So the lists of the wounded had could be compiled?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You said that you received the lists and that you typed them with

22 Verica?

23 A. Graf.

24 Q. Yes, Graf. You retyped these lists. Can you tell us where did

25 you do that? In which office?

Page 1079

1 A. We had a room that was used as an auxiliary pharmacy and an

2 office. It was independent of Dr. Bosanac's office. A doctor on call

3 also slept in that office. There was a supply of medication in that

4 office, a desk, a bed, and a typewriter, and as I said, this was the room

5 used by the doctor on call, who slept there.

6 Q. Do you know in how many copies this list was typed, one copy or

7 more?

8 A. I think when one types up something on a typewriter, it is usually

9 in multiple copies. But as to what instructions were given to our clerk,

10 I don't know, because normally she is given instructions, type this up in

11 five copies, six copies, so probably she received specific instructions on

12 this occasion as well.

13 Q. Would you please refrain from giving me, most likely, probably

14 answers. Just tell me exactly what you know, if you know specifically.

15 A. I don't know in how many copies.

16 Q. Do you know how many copies were typed up?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Do you know what became of the list?

19 A. The clerk was supposed to hand these lists to Dr. Bosanac.

20 Q. You mean Verica?

21 A. The same Verica. My task was to assist her, to dictate names so

22 that the list would be typed quicker, because time was of the essence.

23 Q. Sometime later, did you ever see this list again?

24 A. Never.

25 Q. Do you know whether this list was entered into the computer

Page 1080

1 database? Because I assume that had it been done so, you would have seen

2 it, together with this other documentation.

3 A. No, it definitely was not.

4 Q. Was not?

5 A. Was not.

6 Q. Do you know the reason for that?

7 A. I don't think there was enough time for that, simply speaking.

8 Q. Why do you think so?

9 A. Because I think that there was simply no time. I don't see what

10 other reason there could be. I don't know. I can't give you a yes or no

11 answer. You would need to ask the person in charge of entering data into

12 database, as to why this was not entered into the computer database.

13 Q. In the course of your testimony here, when speaking of the 19th,

14 you said that in -- on the 19th, in the afternoon, an evacuation of all

15 civilians was carried out, organised by Zeljka?

16 A. Zgonjanin.

17 Q. Tell me, do you know whether any members of the hospital Crisis

18 Staff or city Crisis Staff, assisted in that evacuation? Do you have any

19 knowledge of that?

20 A. No. I am acquainted with Zeljka Zgonjanin and she was the only

21 one I saw. If somebody else was there assisting her, I wouldn't be able

22 to tell you where that person came from. But I think that she was alone,

23 on her own.

24 Q. As you told us, you saw the early stages of that evacuation.

25 A. I saw it partially, not the entire evacuation.

Page 1081

1 Q. That's precisely what I said.

2 Mrs. Kolesar, did you, during that portion of evacuation you

3 witnessed, speak with any of those civilians?

4 A. I did, with some. I did.

5 Q. Was that one person or more than one?

6 A. I think one person, or rather, one family.

7 Q. Can you please tell me where did this conversation take place?

8 A. In one of the corridors near the door through which they were

9 supposed to leave the hospital.

10 Q. Did you ever have occasion to see a list of those civilians?

11 A. No.

12 Q. To be quite clear, I'm now referring only to the evacuation of

13 civilians conducted on the 19th in the afternoon.

14 A. That's precisely the question I answered. I didn't see that.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, not in the afternoon

16 but in the evening.

17 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. This had to do with the transcript.

19 Mrs. Kolesar, do you know approximately when this evacuation on

20 the 19th started and how long did it last?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Just tell me, do you know or not?

23 A. I don't. I wouldn't be able to give you the to-from terms, no.

24 Q. All right. Mrs. Kolesar, now we are coming to the 20th. But

25 before we do that, I would like to put two very brief questions to you, in

Page 1082

1 case you remember anything of importance. If you do not, then that's

2 fine.

3 Please tell me, do you know that the International Red Cross or a

4 similar organisation, European mission, or the like, on the 14th of

5 October, sent medication to the hospital?

6 A. We only heard that the convoy was about to arrive. We were

7 expecting medication. However, the convoy never reached the hospital

8 building.

9 Q. You received information that the convoy was expected. Therefore,

10 was this issue perhaps discussed in one of the meetings of the Crisis

11 Staff?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, did you ever find out why this convoy never reached

14 the Vukovar Hospital?

15 A. Much later, when I was already a refugee, I met a person who was

16 in that convoy. But to tell you the truth, I can't remember the exact

17 reason the convoy never reached us. The doctor who was in that convoy and

18 I talked and he told me about the progress and how all of that unfolded.

19 I don't remember the exact reason he gave me for never reaching the

20 hospital but I think he told me that they got as far as the barracks.

21 Q. So he never gave you -- never gave you an exact reason?

22 A. No. I don't think he did. He just told me that they got as far

23 as the barracks and then they returned to Vinkovci and they never reached

24 us, but I don't know why.

25 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, you explained here what happened on the 20th in the

Page 1083

1 morning.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic? Is that a convenient time now to

3 break? You seem to be about to move to another day.

4 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] This would be fine. This would be

5 a convenient time. Thank you, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at ten minutes to 6.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 5.26 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

10 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, we are talking about the 20th of November now. You

12 said that you found your husband on a bus. Can you please say between the

13 time when you were told that your husband had been taken away and the time

14 when you saw him on that bus, how much time elapsed between these two

15 points in time? One hour, two hours, three, five, roughly speaking?

16 A. Can you please repeat your question, how much time elapsed?

17 Q. How much time elapsed between the time you were informed, as you

18 said, by a nurse, that your husband had been taken away and the moment

19 when your colleague gave that list to Mr. Sljivancanin on the one hand,

20 and on the other, the moment you spotted your husband on that bus?

21 A. Roughly speaking, between about 8.00 a.m. and about midday, when

22 we were standing outside within the hospital perimeter, the first husband

23 emerged from that bus. I would say roughly four hours between the two

24 points in time.

25 Q. During those four hours you were standing alongside, with everyone

Page 1084

1 else, the hospital staff out in the yard. You marked it by using number 6

2 in that photograph, if I'm not mistaken.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you recognise anyone else who was driven back together with

5 your husband?

6 A. I know all the husbands who were driven back, and that's why I

7 recognised all of them.

8 Q. Could you please give me a ballpark figure, how many men were

9 there?

10 A. I would say about 20.

11 Q. During your testimony, I think it was in answer to a question by

12 my learned friend from the OTP, you spoke about the hospital staff, or

13 help workers who were supposed to help with carrying the wounded during

14 the evacuation, if I understand you correctly. How many of those were

15 around precisely?

16 A. I can't be specific. Five, six or ten. I would say up to ten

17 such people.

18 Q. Do you know what their status was? I mean, were they contractors,

19 were they employed by the hospital, hospital employees, or were -- was

20 their assistance enlisted in a different way?

21 A. They were not hospital employees. They were not contractors.

22 More often than not they were someone's husbands, one of the staff

23 member's husbands, or just people who happened to be in the hospital and

24 tried to do whatever they could to help us. By way of an explanation, my

25 husband was in the hospital prior to the 20th. He first came in

Page 1085

1 mid-October, when our house was destroyed. He helped us to move the

2 wounded, to set the beds up, to carry water around the building. So he

3 was part of that working group and so were other people who just happened

4 to be there. Some chopped wood for us and some did other chores. They

5 simply helped the hospital survive. That was what was called the working

6 group.

7 Q. Does that mean they were not hospital employees?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, we have spoken a lot about some people pretending

10 that they were wounded and some being genuinely wounded. You answered

11 some questions today and you said you didn't know or, rather, there was no

12 way you could tell.

13 I would like to ask you the following question: Did any one of

14 you, by "you" I mean people who were in the hospital on the 20th, ask to

15 be placed on a list of wounded or staff or any other kind of list, in

16 order to be able to join the evacuation?

17 A. I was not myself in a position --

18 Q. I'm sorry, but that's not my question. Did anyone actually

19 request that? That was my question.

20 A. I don't have that kind of information.

21 Q. Mara Vucko, or Mara Bucko -- I'm not sure what her name is.

22 A. Bucko. Bucko.

23 Q. According to your information, did she do her job as nurse at the

24 hospital in a professional manner? Was her performance professional?

25 A. Mara Bucko is a nurse with the surgery ward. She arrived in the

Page 1086

1 hospital one year after me. She was only 29 at the time. She had been

2 working for 20 years. She was a very good nurse, and until 1991 she

3 worked in the sterilisation department or unit.

4 Q. Did you know whether she was married?

5 A. She was married. She had a husband who also worked at the

6 hospital.

7 Q. Is Irinej Bucko perhaps her husband?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know whether her husband came to the hospital, and if so,

10 when?

11 A. I know that he came, but I can't say when.

12 Q. Do you know whether her husband was assigned to any of these

13 working groups?

14 A. The same one as my husband.

15 Q. Do you know who made that decision or who gave the proposal for

16 that decision?

17 A. Probably our director. Given the need to conduct an evacuation

18 and the number of wounded we had, we had to know exactly when the

19 evacuation took place, who would be there to help with moving the wounded

20 about.

21 Q. Do you know whether Mara Bucko's husband was a member of a ZNG

22 formation, a unit, a police unit or any other unit?

23 A. Over those three months, I never saw him entering the hospital

24 until the very last days in civilian clothes or in uniform. At the time

25 when I saw him, he was wearing civilian clothes.

Page 1087

1 Q. Did you perhaps ask around when talking to other people, since

2 Mara Bucko was a colleague of yours working in the same unit, did you ask

3 about her husband, where he was, what he was doing? Did you have that

4 sort of conversation?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, I would like to ask you now about something that

7 arose from one of your answers. It concerns the following: If I'm not

8 mistaken, on the 22nd of November, you were taken from Sremska Mitrovica

9 back to Zagreb?

10 A. On the 21st.

11 Q. Yes, precisely. You arrived in Zagreb on the 22nd, if I'm not

12 mistaken.

13 Can you please explain what did you do between your arrival in

14 Zagreb on the 21st of November and your retirement? What specific jobs

15 and where?

16 A. I started working with the Merkur clinic upon my arrival in

17 Zagreb, and I worked with them as head nurse in the surgery ward at that

18 clinic. I was head nurse there. I continued in that job until the summer

19 of 1993, when I was transferred to the health ministry, the so-called

20 nursing department. I left the nursing department in 1997. In July 1997,

21 I went back to Vukovar to help with the reintegration of the health

22 sector.

23 Q. When did that take place?

24 A. It took off in 1997, at least as far as our hospital was

25 concerned.

Page 1088

1 Q. The database that we spoke about, where did you first see the

2 documents, the computerised documents?

3 A. In Vukovar.

4 Q. When was that?

5 A. That was after the reintegration in 1998 and 1999 that we first

6 filed a request to have the documents back. If I could just explain why

7 we made that request, because various patients, civilians, who had stayed

8 behind in Vukovar kept calling and asking to be issued certificates to the

9 effect that they were wounded. We didn't have everybody's details. There

10 were some we could help, but there were some people whose names were not

11 on the list and there was nothing we could do to help them.

12 Q. I will ask you something in relation to this documentation. Over

13 those four months you had a computer at the hospital into which you were

14 entering information on the wounded and sick?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. But there are some days missing, right? Were these records also

17 entered into another book kept by the hospital, this information?

18 A. As I said yesterday, there was the main register book in the

19 surgery clinic. Patient's condition was always recorded in other books.

20 The reason that these records were kept was to facilitate the information

21 being given out to whoever requested information.

22 Q. Was there perhaps such a thing as a central book, a main book,

23 that was used to enter information of non-medical character, such as

24 various requests, letters that were sent, hospital mail?

25 A. I cannot say. I don't know that there was any such thing.

Page 1089

1 Mrs. Graf would probably be better placed to confirm the existence of any

2 such book.

3 Q. Did you know that among the hospital papers -- the hospital's

4 patients, and now I'm referring first and foremost to the wounded, there

5 were people who were there under false names?

6 A. I never heard anything about this. We took the patients' names at

7 face value.

8 Q. Aside from the fact that a patient comes along and introduces

9 himself, was the patient's identity verified in any other way, such as ID

10 or personal documents?

11 A. If they had personal documents, we were happy. If not, then the

12 person provided the name or someone who was with them. Some people were

13 not able to provide their information so we had to ask someone else.

14 Otherwise, the person was recorded as unidentified.

15 Q. Tell me, please, since on the 18th in the evening, you received

16 information that there would be evacuation on the 19th, and then on

17 the 19th you drew up lists, and on the 20th --

18 A. On the 18th we drew up lists. We were awaiting evacuation on

19 the 19th.

20 Q. All right. On the 19th, did you carry out your regular activities

21 in the normal procedure?

22 A. Upon learning that there would be no evacuation, what else could

23 we have done except carry on just like we did every day prior to that?

24 Q. Your daily activities, did they mean that you would record

25 everything that was done that day in relation to any patient's treatment?

Page 1090

1 A. Every patient had a temperature chart hanging on his bed. Doctors

2 would come to make their rounds every day, and they decided what therapy

3 was to be given, whether a new dressing was needed and so on. So the

4 temperature chart was a document which said what is to be done with each

5 patient. It was an indication for the nurses what they needed to do every

6 day.

7 Q. I'm asking you in order to have a clear picture of the

8 completeness of your documentation. So the computer database, in addition

9 to lists of the wounded and the sick, did it contain any other data?

10 A. Nothing else but the date of admittance, diagnosis, name and last

11 name and date of birth, if we had such information.

12 Q. Did you also record whether the person was a civilian, a member of

13 the JNA, ZNG member, police member?

14 A. I don't think it was mandatory but it is possible that it was

15 recorded in some places. I couldn't tell with any degree of certainty.

16 Q. Mr. Borovic asked you about the statement that you gave. We know

17 the date of your statement to the OTP of this Tribunal. It was on

18 the 19th and 20th of June, 1995. After that day, did you have any

19 contacts with the OTP, and if so, when?

20 A. I did. Sometime in February 1998, I came here to testify in the

21 Dokmanovic trial.

22 Q. That date when you appeared as a witness in the trial against

23 Slavko Dokmanovic, can you use it as a reference point and tell me whether

24 at that time you already had this documentation in the Vukovar Hospital

25 available to you?

Page 1091

1 A. Not yet.

2 Q. From February 1998 onwards, did you have any other contacts with

3 the OTP?

4 A. No, not until now, not until I was called to come and testify in

5 this trial.

6 Q. You knew about this trial?

7 A. From the press.

8 Q. Did you feel it was necessary, and why didn't you send this

9 documentation to the OTP?

10 A. No one asked me to.

11 Q. Mrs. Kolesar, does the name Sadika Bilus mean anything to you?

12 A. Sadika Bilus is a doctor, an internist. She was until 1991. I

13 don't know when she left the job. As far as I know, she has a private

14 practice in Zagreb or, rather, in Velika Gorice.

15 Q. Do you know how long she was a doctor in the Vukovar Hospital?

16 A. I don't know for how long, but I remember when she started

17 working. She came to the internal diseases department -- ward and she was

18 a specialist internist.

19 Q. Do you know what her husband did?

20 A. I know that she had two husbands. The first one was from Vukovar

21 and he died. And the second one, I don't know where he was from or what

22 his profession was.

23 Q. If I were to tell you the name Davor, tell me, was that the first

24 husband or the second one?

25 A. The second one.

Page 1092

1 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please see

2 the statement of the witness? I will give you the number, 2D01-0036, the

3 B/C/S version. The English version is 2D01-0048.

4 Let us first ensure that this is the statement.

5 Q. Can you see it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that the statement that has already been shown to you?

8 A. Most likely it is. Most likely.

9 Q. Could we now see page 6 of the statement? The B/C/S version

10 is 2D01-0041. The English version is 2D01-0052. Can you see that now?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can we please enlarge the second passage?

13 You see the text beginning with these words, "When the night fell

14 that day"? Would you please read that out?

15 A. "When the night fell that day, I saw civilians leaving the

16 hospital. I asked them why they were leaving."

17 Q. Would you please slow down.

18 A. All right. "I asked them why they were leaving, and they said

19 that there were trucks waiting them outside and that this evacuation was

20 organised by Zeljka Zgonjanin from the local Red Cross. During the

21 previous night as we were preparing the lists of the wounded, I saw her

22 compiling a list of civilians who were in the hospital. I didn't see a

23 single member of the JNA or Serb paramilitary formations taking civilians

24 out of the hospital."

25 Q. Thank you. This segment that you just read out, does it pertain

Page 1093

1 to the civilians that we discussed on the 19th in the evening, who were

2 evacuated?

3 A. Absolutely right. Those civilians who entered the hospital left

4 it then.

5 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have concluded with

6 my cross-examination. I have no further questions. Thank you.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Bulatovic.

8 Mrs. Tuma.

9 MS. TUMA: No thank you, Your Honour. I have no re-examination to

10 do. But, however, Your Honour, I would like to take the opportunity to

11 inform the Court that the pictures concerning in terms of exhibits

12 number 50 to 52, as far as I understand, were taken in July 1997.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that.

14 MS. TUMA: Most welcome, Your Honour. Thank you.

15 JUDGE PARKER: It will help Mr. Borovic.

16 MS. TUMA: Thank you.

17 JUDGE PARKER: No re-examination.

18 Mrs. Kolesar, I'm pleased to be able to tell you that that

19 concludes your evidence so that you are now free to be able to return to

20 your home in accordance with arrangements that are made for you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE PARKER: We thank you for your trouble in coming here and

23 your assistance. If you would like to leave the courtroom.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma.

Page 1094

1 MS. TUMA: Yes, Your Honour?

2 JUDGE PARKER: Your next witness is ready?

3 MS. TUMA: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE PARKER: I understand that there are protective measures

5 ordered.

6 MS. TUMA: That's correct, Your Honour. There is protected

7 measures ordered and granted. And those in terms of voice and --

8 JUDGE PARKER: Don't worry about the details. My concern is that

9 I've been informed that to put in place the equipment necessary, it's

10 going to take about 20 minutes.

11 MS. TUMA: Most likely, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Is it practical for you to use the last quarter of

13 an hour or so, or would it be better to start afresh in the morning? I'm

14 not sure how long the witness will take, when you expect the witness to

15 finish and so on.

16 MS. TUMA: Your Honour, I will not be the lawyer who will deal

17 with that witness. So -- but I would say that it should be better to have

18 a fresh start tomorrow morning.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any member of the Defence that would feel

20 we should have an adjournment for 20 minutes and then press on for the

21 last quarter of an hour or so today rather than breaking now?

22 Mr. Vasic.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. In my case,

24 it turned out to be quite efficient when we adjourned and left the

25 remaining portion of cross-examination for the following day. I don't

Page 1095

1 know whether that would be equally efficient in the case of the

2 Prosecution, but I do hope so.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Can I indicate the Chamber doesn't want to get into

4 a pattern of finishing early. These times, might be only 15 minutes

5 today, but gradually they add up to quite a bit of time. If we have one

6 overriding concern, it is to enable this trial to finish as quickly as it

7 can do, as long as it is fair and efficient.

8 Now, we'll give Mr. Vasic a tick for being able to be very

9 efficient this morning after a break. It concerns me, frankly, that we

10 need a 20-minute break now for technical reasons. I will look into that

11 because it's not something that I've previously experienced in my time

12 with this Tribunal.

13 But I think in the circumstances, we will break now for the

14 evening, but please take it as a clear indication from the Chamber that we

15 want to regard such events as an exception rather than the standard

16 procedure, in the hope that we can get on with this trial as quickly as

17 possible and, of course, that's the thing that is in the interests of each

18 of the accused.

19 Mrs. Tuma, was there something else?

20 MS. TUMA: Yes, please. I would want to add that the Prosecution

21 is ready if so the Trial Chamber decides to continue.

22 Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE PARKER: I think in the circumstances we break now and we

24 will resume tomorrow at 2.15.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.26 p.m.,

Page 1096

1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of

2 November, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.