Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1494

1 Friday, 11 November 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. May I remind you, Madam, of the

7 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence, which still

8 applies.

9 Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

11 WITNESS: P-O21 [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear Mr. Lukic.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, could you speak nearer to the

16 microphone. Your voice is not reaching the interpreters. Thank you.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. I have about ten more minutes of questions for you.

19 If you remember well, yesterday we left off or we concluded as we

20 were discussing the moment when you left the hospital, went into the yard

21 of the hospital as you were preparing for the evacuation. Therefore, I

22 would like to continue with that topic. I would rather not put a

23 photograph in front of you because I think that all of us already have a

24 good picture in our minds of what the hospital yard looked like, but I

25 will just ask you this. As you were then expecting to head towards the

Page 1495

1 buses and evacuation, were you standing in an area which was between the

2 emergency ward building and the hospital entrance? Was that the area

3 where you stood at that time? Would you please give an audible answer.

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Were you present and do you remember when a convoy of medical

6 vehicles arrived in front of the hospital building? Those vehicles were

7 supposed to transport the wounded in the evacuation.

8 A. I didn't see that because I realised that I'd forgotten some of my

9 belongings. And at one point in time I went back to my room so there were

10 certain things that I missed.

11 Q. Did you see later on these medical vehicles that had entered the

12 hospital compound, the hospital yard, once you came back? Did you see

13 that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you present when the wounded were boarded on to those

16 vehicles and who boarded them? Did you see that?

17 A. No, I wasn't present then.

18 Q. In that area, in the yard, awaiting the evacuation, were there

19 women, children, and the elderly with you there as well?

20 A. Yes. Those were mostly hospital staff members and their families.

21 Q. Do you remember, were you present and did you hear when they were

22 told that they had a choice between going to Serbia, going to Croatia, or

23 remaining in Vukovar? They were told this while standing there in the

24 yard.

25 A. No. That was said before, not at that moment, as far as I know.

Page 1496

1 Q. I'm now referring strictly to the period when you stood in the

2 yard. Therefore, while you were there in the yard, do you remember seeing

3 at any point in time my client, Mr. Sljivancanin?

4 A. I can't remember.

5 Q. Several days ago when testifying in examination-in-chief you

6 explained to my learned friend from the Prosecution that in those hours,

7 as you were waiting and once you reached the bus, you saw for the first

8 time a person you identified as a member of a paramilitary unit. And you

9 said that one could clearly distinguish between them and a member of the

10 regular army. Do you remember that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can we then conclude that prior to that, from the morning until

13 that period of time, you did not see them in the hospital yard until that

14 moment when you were waiting for the evacuation to begin?

15 A. I didn't see anybody with such insignia, not in that area.

16 Q. Can you give us some idea of what time it was when you saw those

17 people there.

18 A. If, as I said, this was around 10.00 when we reached that area,

19 then it must have been between 10.00 and 12.00. I think that would be a

20 correct answer.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask to go into private

22 session for just one question, please.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Either during your testimony here or perhaps in your statement, I

21 can't remember where - and if you do remember then please correct me - you

22 said that you saw three buses waiting for you and about ten ambulances.

23 A. I have to be quite accurate when discussing this. These three

24 buses were not parked within the hospital compound, but rather beyond.

25 They stood in front of the court building. Further, to be fully accurate,

Page 1498

1 the other vehicles, ambulances, I saw them once they joined our convoy. I

2 just wanted to be fully accurate regarding this.

3 Q. You explained that. You said that you went first to the court

4 building, that you boarded the buses, and then the convoy set out, and so

5 on.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember what colour those buses were, what licence plates

8 they had? Were those civilian or military buses? Do you remember

9 anything regarding this?

10 A. I believe they were civilian buses, but I might be wrong. I

11 didn't really look for any of those things.

12 Q. Based on your testimony, there were about 54 patients there and

13 70 to 80 family members in that convoy. Is that right?

14 A. I learned about the number of patients later on. This is an

15 estimate that I gave you. Later on this figure was confirmed. Now, as to

16 whether it was fully accurate or not, I can't say.

17 As for the family members, that was based on the assessment of how

18 many people could be seated in a bus. It could be ten or 20 people more,

19 but not more than that.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, we're asked to pause for a moment.

21 There's a -- some form of technical problem.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE PARKER: There's a problem with the voice distortion

24 mechanism; technicians are looking at it.

25 Mr. Lukic, to enable us to continue, we will go into private

Page 1499

1 session. In that way, the technical problem is avoided. It's hoped that

2 the matter can be remedied in about ten minutes, by which time you'll be

3 well finished on your prediction. Thank you.

4 [Private session]

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8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Agha:

11 Q. Now, Witness, during your cross-examination you mentioned that no

12 one physically cut off the water or electricity supply to the hospital.

13 So my question to you is: How were these installations cut off? How did

14 they come to be non-working?

15 A. Based on what I know and based on my personal conviction, this was

16 caused by the destruction of the installations supplying water and

17 electricity to the hospital, and also within the hospital. The

18 installations, the equipment, was destroyed, therefore continuous supply

19 was impossible. So the destruction occurred both outside the hospital and

20 within the hospital. I have to say, though, that I am no expert, but it

21 is my opinion that this was caused by destruction.

22 Q. And who was shelling the hospital?

23 A. The JNA.

24 Q. I'd now look to move to another area, Witness, and this concerns

25 the question of the markings of the hospital with the Red Cross insignia

Page 1501

1 which you mentioned in your evidence in chief and in cross-examination.

2 Now, in which month was the markings put on the hospital?

3 A. I think I already said this. I believe it was in September. The

4 marking was placed in the visible, outside area, but I may not be fully

5 accurate about the time period. It could have been August or September.

6 Q. And how long did the marking remain there?

7 A. Until the end.

8 Q. Now, you mention in your evidence in chief that it was Dr. Bosanac

9 who was negotiating with the JNA. So would it have been Dr. Bosanac, if

10 anyone, who would have raised the bombing of the hotel -- sorry, the

11 hospital?

12 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this question did not

15 arise from any question put during cross-examination.

16 MR. AGHA: Your Honour, I believe the question of the distance and

17 whether the visibility and the markings of the Red Cross sign did actually

18 come during cross-examination.

19 JUDGE PARKER: It did. What I'm not immediately grasping is the

20 particular question you're asking and how it arises.

21 MR. AGHA: It arises in connection with whether the party which

22 was bombarding the hospital would have had knowledge from any source that

23 indeed there was a Red Cross marking and that the hospital was being

24 bombed.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Are you seeking to have the witness indicate

Page 1502

1 whether anybody other than Dr. Bosanac in her knowledge might have been

2 negotiating about the hospital with the JNA?

3 MR. AGHA: Well, anybody at all, whether Dr. Bosanac or any other

4 person.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I think that sufficiently arises, Mr. Lukic.

6 Mr. Agha, carry on.


8 Q. So just coming back to that question, Witness, you had mentioned

9 that Dr. Bosanac was negotiating with the JNA. So is it likely that over

10 this three months' period of bombardment she would have mentioned this?

11 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think the witness can answer that,

12 Mr. Agha. She knows or she doesn't know.

13 MR. AGHA:

14 Q. Do you know whether Dr. Bosanac would have mentioned this to the

15 JNA or any other person she was negotiating with whilst the bombardment

16 was going on?

17 A. As far as I know, not based on direct participation and

18 conversations or negotiations. As she not only was supposed to but had to

19 make such a warning, and I don't think that's contentious at all.

20 Q. Now, I'd like to move away from the Red Cross markings and come to

21 the Red Cross themselves. Now, it is your evidence they were expected for

22 the evacuation but they did not arrive. Did you learn why they were

23 delayed or they did not arrive for the evacuation later on?

24 A. We were told that they were prevented from arriving in the

25 hospital. That was the information we received.

Page 1503

1 Q. And who was preventing them?

2 A. Based on what we learned, the JNA.

3 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like to move to another topic, and this concerns

4 the stream of people, I believe the Defence counsel call it, who gathered

5 at the hospital on 17th of November. Now, can you describe the condition

6 in which these people were in when they were arriving at the hospital?

7 A. Terrified, first of all. They looked more than miserable. They

8 looked like a person you pulled out from a basement, a person that hasn't

9 had a bath in months, all dusty and dirty. But what was common to all of

10 them was that they were afraid and terrified.

11 Q. As a doctor, how humanitarian would it have been for you to send

12 all these people away?

13 A. If somebody knocked on your door, you, as a physician or just as a

14 regular person, would never turn them away if they needed help. A doctor,

15 especially, would never do that.

16 Q. Now, just before my learned friend Mr. Lukic finished his

17 cross-examination, he mentioned that when you were escorted or evacuated

18 from hospital, there were 17 doctors and six nurses, roughly, on that

19 convoy and that these figures came from monitors. Now, to your knowledge

20 did most or all of this convoy reach its destination safely?

21 A. I don't have precise information, therefore I cannot claim this

22 with certainty. But I think that except for some minor problems en route,

23 everybody arrived at their destination. Perhaps you can find somewhere

24 more reliable information than what I can provide to you, but I think that

25 everybody who was with me on my bus, all of us arrived safely in Zagreb.

Page 1504

1 Q. Now, on the other hand when your patients were -- who were under

2 your care were removed from the hospital by the JNA, how many doctors and

3 nurses were accompanying those patients?

4 A. Not a single one.

5 Q. How many monitors and Red Cross personnel were accompanying your

6 patients?

7 A. If my information is correct, not one.

8 Q. And how many of your patients who were taken away reached their

9 destination safely, presumably to a hospital for treatment?

10 A. I can be certain about two only.

11 Q. And what about the others?

12 A. As I marked on that document, the rest of them were killed and are

13 still listed as missing.

14 Q. Now, I want to move to a final topic, if I may, and that is

15 actually your list which you tendered in evidence of your patients. Now,

16 during cross-examination various questions for put to you as to what the

17 composition of these patients were, whether they were injured, their

18 make-up, et cetera. Now, I just want to clarify that on your list at

19 number 20 is a gentleman named -- if my pronunciation is correct, you'll

20 have to bear with me, Dragutin Friscic who was an uninjured person who you

21 placed on your list. Now what was his status? Was he a fighter, was he a

22 civilian, was he a hospital worker? What was his status?

23 A. If I remember correctly, he was a civilian but please don't hold

24 me to it.

25 There is something that I would like to clarify, if I may.

Page 1505

1 Mr. Lukic asked me about how I knew and how I made the markings. I hope

2 I do have the Chamber's permission to go ahead with this clarification.


4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was one particular aspect

5 regarding this. When I talked to the investigators, I had a copy of this

6 list, but then they asked me whether I remembered who was what or what the

7 person's status was. And I notice there's a difference between the list

8 that you have here and my copy that I had at the time based on which I

9 conducted the interview. And back then it was based on my memory that I

10 added details from personal case histories. This is by way of

11 clarification. I'm just wondering why this information does not seem to

12 appear on your list, whereas it is certain that I in fact provided such

13 information to the investigators at the time. That's all I wanted to say.

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, I think it was your questioning, not

16 Mr. Lukic's.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apology. My apology.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] It's not about me being vain or

19 anything. I'm not just trying to appear on the transcript.

20 There is something else I wanted to bring up. This additional

21 explanation provided by the witness during my learned friend's re-direct,

22 or before he has actually concluded it, I believe the witness perhaps may

23 need to be examined on these additional circumstances. This is new

24 information and we weren't given the same document. So we would like to

25 know whether she in fact gave this document to the OTP when she was

Page 1506

1 interviewed by the investigators, or perhaps my learned friend could

2 examine the witness on this issue.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, taking your points in order, first the

4 witness specifically sought to give this explanation. You specifically

5 told her that she should not at that point and she could be re-examined on

6 it and that is what is now occurring. So you have rather burnt your

7 bridges about an opportunity to question further on that topic.

8 With respect to the list, no doubt Mr. Agha will now be exploring

9 whether there is yet a further copy of the list or one to which some

10 further information was added by the witness at some time.

11 Thank you.

12 MR. AGHA: Yes, Your Honour, I will attend to that.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 MR. AGHA:

15 Q. So coming back to the individual in particular, this is

16 Mr. Dragutin Friscic, who you believed was a civilian, is he alive? What

17 is he?

18 A. No.

19 Q. No, he is not alive?

20 A. No. Not according to my information, he isn't.

21 Q. Now, there's another couple of points I need to just clarify from

22 you with regard to your list. Now, during the cross-examination the

23 Defence suggested that up to 14 of your patients may have been former ZNG

24 fighters or MUP. Now, even if this was so, what kind of resistance were

25 these alleged former ZNG fighters or MUP putting up at the hospital when

Page 1507

1 the JNA arrived?

2 A. Absolutely none.

3 Q. And what firearms did they have with them?

4 A. I guarantee that they had no firearms at all.

5 Q. And according to your earlier evidence, most of these former

6 alleged fighters had genuine injuries?

7 A. That is certainly so.

8 Q. Now, during your cross-examination the Defence also suggested that

9 some of these 14 patients of yours were trying to evade arrest because

10 they may have committed crimes. So on that basis, what questions did the

11 JNA ask your patients before they took them away to determine what crimes

12 they had committed?

13 A. I can only tell you about those two gentlemen when I was present

14 as they were being led away. There was no question of that sort, no

15 indication of anything like that. It was only about the wounding.

16 Q. So what explanation did the JNA give you for taking your patients

17 away?

18 A. No explanation was offered.

19 Q. When did they tell you that your patients were under arrest?

20 A. Nothing was said about that at all.

21 Q. What crimes did they tell you that they were suspected of

22 committing?

23 A. As nothing was said about that, nothing was said about them being

24 suspected of committing crimes.

25 Q. So where was the trial of your patients heard? Where was that?

Page 1508

1 Was it in a courtroom like this? Did you attend it?

2 A. I never actually heard that any such trial took place.

3 Q. Yet your injured, unarmed patients, most of them are alive or

4 dead?

5 A. Mostly dead.

6 MR. AGHA: I have no further questions in re-examination, Your

7 Honours.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Agha.

9 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Please, before the witness leaves, we

12 would like to find out what we want to know, not in terms of

13 examination-in-chief, but in terms of our cross-examination but in terms

14 of our relations with the OTP. Something you said and the Prosecutor did

15 not bring up. When she gave the OTP her statement, did she in fact give

16 them the list containing such information as who were members of the ZNG

17 or MUP? Did she give a separate list with those markings? I think we

18 should have that clarified before the witness leaves, and I think you know

19 exactly why that is material to our case.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber was about to ask some

21 questions of the witness on this topic because it seems to us to be left

22 in an unsatisfactory state. Now, I propose to do that first and then see

23 what, if anything, I need to raise with Mr. Agha.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE PARKER: Madam, if we can go back to the time when you were

Page 1509

1 interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor in 1995 and you made a

2 statement. You've mentioned that you had then with you a copy of your

3 patient list. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Is that the list you prepared probably on the

7 evening of the 17th of November?

8 A. Yes. The same one that you have. It's the same list, but this

9 one is a copy.

10 JUDGE PARKER: So the list you've seen here is the list you

11 prepared on the -- in the hospital in November 1991 and you had with you

12 in 1995 a copy of that list. Is that what you're saying?

13 A. That's correct. It was based on that list that I tried to think

14 back and recollect, combined with my knowledge of the patients' case

15 histories, that's what I'm trying to explain, whether somebody was a

16 civilian or a member of the MUP or ZNG. That is why next to each of the

17 names you have these remarks based on the -- what I remembered to be true.

18 I went through that list and what I said I said based on that list. I'm

19 trying to say it's the same list. It's only that it was based on my

20 recollection that I made individual notes next to each of the names. But

21 the list itself was done, as it were, by word of mouth based on that same

22 list I informed the gentleman. That's what I remembered, what I recalled,

23 at the time. It was based on my recollection and on my recollection of

24 patients' case histories. That's what I tried to explain. I'm not sure

25 you understand.

Page 1510

1 JUDGE PARKER: There's a little more we need to explore. In 1995

2 in the interview, did you mark additional information on the copy of the

3 list that you had with you?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Do I understand, then, that reading the names on

6 the list in the interview, you then tried to remember what you could from

7 your knowledge of the case histories in 1991 and things like membership of

8 ZNG or MUP?

9 A. That's correct.

10 JUDGE PARKER: And did you, from that recollection, tell those you

11 were interviewing what you could remember about membership of ZNG or MUP

12 by the people on the list?

13 A. Correct.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, the position we seem to have reached is

15 that there is no additional list with different markings, which is what,

16 at one point, seemed to be the position. And I would, from the point of

17 view of the Chamber, be prepared to leave the matter on that basis.

18 Madam, I'm pleased to be able to tell you that that concludes the

19 evidence, the questioning that will occur in this trial of you. The

20 Chamber is grateful for the time you've been here, the assistance you've

21 given, and the effort you've made to come here to assist. You may now go

22 to your home, but if you would stay where you are a moment so that the

23 shutters can be closed before you leave the room.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Madam.

Page 1511

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, are we ready for your next witness?

3 MR. MOORE: Yes, we are. Thank you very much. May I call

4 Dr. Njavro, please.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Is this a protected witness?

6 MR. MOORE: It is not -- or he is not.

7 JUDGE PARKER: The shutters could go up, please.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Doctor.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11 JUDGE PARKER: May I ask you to read aloud the affirmation on the

12 card that was given to you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.

16 Yes, Mr. Moore.

17 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examined by Mr. Moore:

21 Q. Could we have your full name, please.

22 A. Juraj Njavro.

23 Q. It is correct, is it not, that you are currently a government

24 minister in the Ministry of Health for the Croatian government?

25 A. No. I am now retired.

Page 1512

1 Q. In any event, what are your professional qualifications, please?

2 A. I completed secondary school, after that the medical school in

3 Zagreb. After that, a residence in general surgery in Belgrade, and then

4 I pursued post-graduate studies specialising in surgery; that was in

5 Zagreb. I worked as a surgeon in the Vukovar Hospital from the very start

6 and during the war of aggression against the Republic of Croatia.

7 Q. Is it right that you worked for approximately 25 years in the

8 Vukovar Hospital?

9 A. That's right. I worked there from the very beginning just after I

10 finished my residence, the mandatory one. After that I was an assistant

11 in surgery, and after that I pursued specialised studies in general

12 surgery, which I completed at the so-called second surgical clinic in

13 Belgrade.

14 Q. I'd like to deal, if I may, please, very briefly from May 1991, to

15 use that as a reference point. Is it right that a number of police

16 officers were killed and injured and brought to the hospital in Vukovar?

17 A. Yes, that's right. This occurred on the 2nd of May, 1991, in

18 Borovo Selo.

19 Q. Subsequently, is it also right to say that special protocols for

20 treatment of the wounded was put in place at the hospital?

21 A. That's right, Mr. Prosecutor. It is true that special protocols

22 were established at the hospital and that records were being kept,

23 accurate ones, if I may add, of all the wounded. It was always perfectly

24 clear who was a civilian, who was a member of the MUP, and who was a

25 member of the ZNG, National Guards' Corps. When wounded were brought in,

Page 1513

1 personal information was taken, where they were wounded, how they were

2 wounded, and who brought them in.

3 Q. If I may just follow that through. In relation to the records

4 themselves, is it correct that they were compiled as best could be on a

5 day-by-day basis up until the removal of patients from the Vukovar

6 Hospital on the 20th of November?

7 A. That is correct. The records were kept in compliance with all the

8 laws that are binding for hospitals, wards and clinics. This was a law

9 that applied throughout the Republic of Croatia.

10 Q. Do you know what happened to the records after the 20th of

11 November?

12 A. On the 20th of November, after the JNA forces and the Chetnik

13 paramilitaries entered the Vukovar Hospital, all these documents, records,

14 both those of the hospital and of the surgery clinic, were taken away,

15 containing information with regard to all those who came to seek help at

16 the Vukovar Hospital, irrespective of whether they were seriously or just

17 slightly wounded. All of this was placed in a bag, and the JNA soldiers

18 took it away from the Vukovar Hospital.

19 Q. Could we very briefly - and I know you've touched on the topic -

20 could we very briefly deal with the procedure for new admissions into the

21 hospital.

22 A. Yes. When someone came to the hospital or was brought there by an

23 ambulance or if there was no need to use ambulance, the person would just

24 simply walk to the hospital, they would report to the surgery clinic,

25 personal information was taken down, first name, last name, year of birth,

Page 1514

1 place of birth, occupation, and who referred them to the hospital. After

2 that, this person would be medically examined, processed, and all their

3 information would be recorded in the records.

4 Q. In relation to new patients, did the hospital, as far as you are

5 aware, distinguish in its treatment between what I will call Croatian and

6 Serb, military or non-military?

7 A. No. During the most difficult days when Vukovar was occupied, it

8 didn't matter which ethnic group someone belonged to, which religious

9 affiliation or whatever. The same medical treatment, the same medical

10 assistance, was given to all, regardless of all these different features

11 that I've enumerated.

12 Q. I'd like to deal with the hospital building itself, the structure.

13 How much floors did the hospital have, let us say, in August 1991?

14 A. In August 1991, the hospital had the following components: The

15 basement, comprising an atomic shelter; the ground floor, with the

16 internal diseases ward; first floor, with gynaecology and maternity ward;

17 the second floor with surgery; and a third floor was added that was never

18 finished, but it was roofed over.

19 Q. May I deal with the second floor of the -- the floor that you say

20 dealt with surgery. Were you able to use that floor throughout August and

21 afterwards for operations?

22 A. On the 6th of August, the hospital was shelled for the first time.

23 Those of us who were not familiar with the types of weapons learned that

24 this was a mortar fire which broke window panes and inflicted damage on

25 the ceilings in operating room. Therefore, we had to move the operating

Page 1515

1 room a floor below, to the gynaecology ward. Since the windows and

2 ceilings and certain patient rooms were damaged as well, we moved the

3 patients from those rooms to the basement. That was the first time we did

4 that.

5 Q. If we are dealing with August - and obviously it's difficult to

6 just classify August specifically - but to give an indication at that time

7 when you removed the surgical wards down to the basement area, are you

8 able to assess the percentage of casualties in respect of civilian and

9 non-civilian?

10 A. Initially there was a large percentage of civilians, between 60

11 and 75 per cent. The rest were members of the ZNG and police.

12 Q. As time went on - and we'll say September, October, November - can

13 you give an indication to the Court of the number of individuals who were

14 being admitted to the hospital with injuries?

15 A. As time went by, the fall came and the daily intensity of shelling

16 increased. The entire city of Vukovar was shelled as was the hospital.

17 The number of newly admitted persons and persons with grave injuries

18 increased. Initially there were 40 to 50 admitted persons a day, and by

19 October the number grew to between 70 and 80 persons who were wounded and

20 came to the hospital daily.

21 Q. I'd like to talk about the geographic location of the hospital

22 itself. Knowing the hospital and presumably the area around the hospital,

23 what I will call hinterland, can you tell the Court where the nearest

24 obvious military target would have been or military building would have

25 been?

Page 1516

1 A. In the vicinity of the hospital itself there was not a single

2 military building except for what existed at the distance of 150 to 200

3 metres, and that was the police administrative building. This was a

4 police building. As for military installations or buildings, there were

5 none in the vicinity.

6 Q. And again, if we're talking about August/September, would you be

7 able to estimate just for those two months how many times the hospital was

8 hit with fire that was not rifle fire?

9 A. I believe that hospital was never hit by rifle bullets. I think

10 that it was exclusively hit by shells and plane bombs as well as mortar

11 shells, multi-barrelled rocket launchers, Howitzer guns, and all types of

12 weapons except for rifles. All of those missiles were fired at the

13 hospital. Sometimes on a daily basis, at least that's the information I

14 received from the wounded with whom I shared the same fate, I heard from

15 them that daily up to 100 shells landed on the hospital and nearby.

16 Q. And did that apply to October and November as well?

17 A. From October it was incessant up until 17th of November, 1991.

18 Q. As far as you can understand, either personally or from others,

19 was there any method adopted to try and distinguish a building, a hospital

20 building, to protect it from or perhaps to identify it as being a

21 hospital?

22 A. Yes. In front of the hospital a huge, white sheet was placed with

23 the red cross on it. It almost touched the hospital. It was visible from

24 the air and perhaps even from other elevations. Another one was placed on

25 the hospital itself. It is possible that there were some other markings,

Page 1517

1 but I'm positive about these two. These markings of the International Red

2 Cross, as I said, were visibly displayed. Throughout that incessant,

3 continuous shelling, we were convinced that they were targeting the

4 hospital on purpose because they used the markings as a guide to guide

5 their missiles and to ensure that they targeted it in an easier way.

6 Q. I'd like to ask you about the atomic shelter at Borovo Komerc.

7 Was that particular atomic shelter used by the hospital in any way?

8 A. The shelter at Borovo Komerc was also housed in the basement area.

9 The hospital used this shelter in order to relieve the pressure on the

10 hospital itself. It was impossible for the hospital to keep all the

11 wounded and sick; and therefore, after recovering those wounded who did

12 not require constant surgical or medical attention were moved to

13 Borovo Komerc.

14 Q. And how long or up until what time did you send recovering

15 patients to Borovo Komerc? Can you give the Court an indication of what

16 month that was.

17 A. That was up until the 10th, or rather, the 6th of November, 1991.

18 After that, it was impossible because Borovo was cut off from the

19 hospital.

20 Q. And how far away was Borovo from Vukovar itself, Vukovar Hospital

21 as a reference point?

22 A. Roughly between three and four kilometres.

23 Q. You used the phrase "relieved pressure on the hospital." When you

24 were actually sending patients to Borovo Komerc, how many patients did you

25 actually have in the Vukovar Hospital at that time?

Page 1518

1 A. In those days, as I have told you, every day in October we

2 received between 70 and 80 [as interpreted] wounded persons, and

3 occasionally, although not very often, some persons who were very sick;

4 the hospital was just more than full. There was no room in the corridors,

5 in the rooms, in the atomic shelter. Wherever it was possible and at

6 least safe to some degree, safe from the shells, we used that space.

7 Occasionally we even put two patients in the same bed because we had so

8 many of them. Sometimes we even had to put them under beds.

9 Q. We know that on the 19th of October [Realtime transcript read in

10 error "November] that Medecins Sans Frontieres evacuated over a hundred

11 people or patients from the hospital. Do you remember that occasion?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The patients that were taken away by Medecins Sans Frontieres, can

14 you describe --

15 JUDGE PARKER: Wrong month, Mr. Lukic? Anything else?

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Something else. On page 25, line 3,

17 the witness said that there were about 500 patients, and this is not

18 recorded in the transcript. So I just wanted to draw your attention to

19 this.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 And the correct month, Mr. Moore. I think November is shown in

22 the transcript for the evacuation of Medecins Sans Frontieres.

23 MR. MOORE: And it was October.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

25 MR. MOORE: I'll ask the question again so that there's a

Page 1519

1 continuity.

2 Q. Doctor, just to repeat the question to assist you. The 19th of

3 October we know there was an evacuation of patients by Medecins Sans

4 Frontieres. What type of patient was evacuated on that occasion, please?

5 A. I think that some 107 or 112 patients were evacuated by Medecins

6 Sans Frontieres; they were taken by them from the Vukovar Hospital. These

7 were seriously injured patients. We, physicians, selected them based on

8 our assessment that they were those who were extremely endangered and

9 could no longer continue staying in the Vukovar Hospital because of the

10 conditions that prevailed there. We believed that they needed to be

11 evacuated in order to recover more speedy and under better conditions.

12 Q. Can I ask you, please, about that evacuation and the medical care

13 that was taken of the seriously injured patients. Are you able to assist

14 the Court in telling them about the level of care that was adopted on the

15 19th of October evacuation?

16 A. I can tell you how the patients were taken out and boarded on to

17 vehicles that were supposed to drive them along the pre-agreed road. This

18 was pre-agreed by General Raseta in Zagreb during the negotiations

19 conducted in the Hotel E in Zagreb. These negotiations were conducted

20 between General Raseta, Medecins Sans Frontieres, and the Croatian

21 government. In order to speed up transportation and ensure urgent medical

22 attention, they were supposed to take the following route: Vukovar,

23 Bogdanovci, Marinovci, Nustar, Vinkovci, and then further on they were

24 supposed to be hospitalised.

25 We at the hospital had constant contact with Zagreb. We inquired

Page 1520

1 about whether they had arrived. However, we learned that it wasn't until

2 after some 16 or 17 hours of arduous travelling on field roads through

3 dirt that they were handed over to the Croatian medical representatives.

4 These people were in a very serious condition, exhausted. Two patients

5 died en route.

6 Q. What steps -- as far as you can recollect, what steps were taken

7 to ensure what I would call continuing medical care on the route from

8 Vukovar to Zagreb? Do you understand the question?

9 A. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, I do. Some of the care was provided by

10 Medecins Sans Frontieres with the accompanying medical personnel. There

11 were also nurses who were from the Vukovar Hospital. After they crossed

12 the bridge in Luzac, which is a suburb of Vukovar, the convoy was taken

13 over by the Yugoslav People's Army. From then on the convoy travelled

14 under their supervision.

15 Q. Thank you very much. May we deal then, please, with the 18th of

16 November. Other topics have perhaps been covered by witnesses and I may

17 return to them generally. But I would like to deal, please, with the

18 actual surrender of Vukovar on or around the 18th of November. Just

19 addressing that date, do you remember any Red Cross personnel coming to

20 the hospital itself?

21 A. Yes. But not to the hospital itself, rather in front of the

22 hospital. On the 18th, which was a Monday, the 18th of November, 1991,

23 some time in the early afternoon hours two personnel carriers of the JNA

24 arrived. They pointed their barrels towards the hospital. A captain came

25 out of one of the personnel carriers, a captain of the JNA. Dr. Bosanac,

Page 1521

1 myself, and Mr. Marin Vidic, Bili, stood in front of the entrance because

2 there was an agreement reached between the International Red Cross,

3 General Raseta, and Croatian government that the International Red Cross

4 would take over the hospital, the wounded, sick, and medical staff and

5 take them to the free territory of Croatia.

6 Q. Can you remember at what time those personnel carriers came,

7 approximately?

8 A. In the early afternoon hours, perhaps at around 1.00 p.m.

9 Q. And this captain, was he the only officer, JNA officer, that you

10 saw that afternoon or day?

11 A. No. Following that, near the hospital as we were still standing

12 there awaiting for the representative of the International Red Cross we

13 saw - now I'm giving you my personal account - Major Sljivancanin,

14 Nicholas Borsinger who were arguing about not something. I heard the

15 following words uttered. Major Sljivancanin said: Sir - he was

16 addressing Borsinger - I am in charge here. This is the country where my

17 orders are followed, and it will be as I say. If you find it

18 objectionable, please go back to where you had come from.

19 Q. Do you know what Borsinger said to Sljivancanin?

20 A. I didn't hear that. I can only speculate, but I didn't hear,

21 therefore I can't say.

22 Q. You used the word "arguing." Can you describe to the Court what

23 it was you actually saw that you came to the conclusion it was an

24 argument?

25 A. We received information from Zagreb that an agreement had been

Page 1522

1 signed, stipulating that we would be taken over by the representatives of

2 the International Red Cross. Based on that, I understood in that argument

3 that Mr. Borsinger insisted on abiding by the agreement that had been

4 signed by General Raseta, as the JNA representative, International

5 Red Cross, and Croatian government. Represented by the health minister,

6 Professor Andrija Hebrang.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues]... seems a perfectly obvious

8 question. I can't give you the evidence. How did you know it was an

9 argument as opposed to a normal, rational discussion?

10 A. One could tell, both based on their face expression and gestures.

11 I think it is very easy to tell apart a pleasant conversation or just a

12 normal conversation from a conversation which seems pretty tense.

13 Q. And are you -- were you able to assess the manner and attitude of

14 Sljivancanin to the Red Cross representative?

15 A. I concluded that Sljivancanin was quite arrogant, acted

16 victorious, seemed overconfident, and that that was his attitude towards

17 the representative of the International Red Cross. I concluded this based

18 on his firm tone of voice and very stern gestures.

19 Q. You've told us about a captain arriving. Did that captain

20 actually speak to you at all that day?

21 A. No, no. The captain entered the hospital followed by a unit of

22 the JNA. They placed guards with weapons in front of all large openings

23 in the hospital. There were too many of them due to destruction inflicted

24 by shells.

25 Q. I'm going to continue asking questions about the 18th, but I just

Page 1523

1 want to follow this captain for a moment, evidentially follow. Was that

2 the only time that you met that captain?

3 A. That was the first time, but I'm greatly saddened to say that I

4 met him again both on the 19th and the 20th of November, 1991.

5 Q. Can we deal with your meeting with this captain on the 19th. Did

6 you ever discover this captain's name?

7 A. On the morning of the 19th, it might have been around 8.00

8 or 9.00, I can't say, the same captain from last night appeared,

9 accompanied by a soldier. He came up to me and he said, Doctor, my name

10 is Captain Radic. From now on -- or as of now, consider yourself under

11 arrest. You must not leave this room.

12 Q. Thank you. Have you any doubt at all that the captain that you

13 saw on the morning of the 19th was the same captain that you saw the

14 previous day, on the 18th?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Let us then return to the 18th, the evidence that you were giving

17 was that the captain entered -- Captain Radic, entered followed by a unit

18 of JNA. The JNA soldiers themselves, how long did they remain at the

19 hospital?

20 A. The soldiers remained until 5.00 p.m., when it began to grow dark.

21 After that, the soldiers left only to be replaced by paramilitary Chetnik

22 soldiers or ...

23 Q. Are you able to say who were the military leaders of those Chetnik

24 soldiers who replaced the JNA?

25 A. I didn't know who their leaders were, nor do I know now who their

Page 1524

1 leaders were at the time. I do know, however, who appeared with them and

2 appeared to lead them, a man named Bogdan Kuzmic, who had been an employee

3 of the Vukovar Hospital.

4 Q. The man Bogdan Kuzmic, if we deal with the evening of the 18th,

5 what was he doing that evening?

6 A. That evening Bogdan Kuzmic and the captain inspected the hospital,

7 or rather, inspected the basement in which the wounded, sick, medical

8 staff, and all those who sought refuge in the hospital were. They had

9 arrived from basements all over Vukovar.

10 Q. Can we please --

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, I'm afraid I have to interrupt because

12 we're running to the end of tape. We need to have our first break.

13 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume then at five minutes past 11.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.

18 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

19 Q. Doctor, can I just recap, please, the evidence that you gave

20 before the adjournment. You said that that evening, the evening of

21 the 18th, Bogdan Kuzmic and the captain that we know as Captain Radic

22 inspected the hospital or inspected the basement where the wounded, sick,

23 and medical staff were. When you use the phrase "inspected" what do you

24 mean?

25 A. My intention was to say that they visited all the rooms where the

Page 1525

1 wounded, ill, and medical staff were as well as citizens who had arrived

2 from other basements. The objective of this visit was to identify some of

3 the wounded and civilians who would later, on the 20th, be taken from the

4 hospital and who were eventually to end up at Ovcara. And the other

5 thing, the next day, the 19th of November, the rest of them were taken

6 away. Certain individual medical workers and drivers were taken away.

7 And nothing has been heard of them to this very day.

8 Q. I would like you, please, to focus on the evening of the 18th and

9 the morning of the 19th of November. Now, at that time are you able to

10 assess or were you able to assess how many wounded persons were in the

11 hospital at that time?

12 A. At that time, on the evening on the 18th, there were over 450

13 wounded at the hospital. In addition to those, there were a number of

14 sick persons who had no firearm injuries.

15 Q. If I deal with the group of patients generally, are you able to

16 say if any of those patients left the hospital on the evening of the 18th,

17 morning of the 19th?

18 A. To my knowledge, on the evening of the 18th and morning of

19 the 19th, none of the wounded left the hospital or the -- any of the other

20 patients for that matter.

21 Q. I would like to ask you about Bogdan Kuzmic. You have told us

22 that he was with Captain Radic that evening. Who was Bogdan Kuzmic? How

23 did you know him?

24 A. Bogdan Kuzmic had worked for several years at the hospital's

25 reception, the reception of the Vukovar Hospital. He knew the hospital

Page 1526

1 staff, and he was familiar with the layout of the hospital. He was not a

2 particularly educated person. I believe he had only completed his primary

3 education.

4 Q. Are you able to say what his political affiliation was?

5 A. I must admit that I was not aware of his political affiliation, of

6 Bogdan Kuzmic's political affiliation, until he showed up at the hospital

7 on the 18th of November as a member of a paramilitary unit, or rather, a

8 reservist, a JNA reservist.

9 Q. Do you know of a man called Marko Mandic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On the 18th, 19th of November, do you know where he was?

12 A. On the 18th of November, Marko Mandic -- in the morning during the

13 last operation at the Vukovar Hospital Marko Mandic had still been

14 assisting me in treating a girl who had been hit by shrapnel. Her name

15 was Sanja Vidic. She was three years old, and she had sustained a serious

16 injury to her upper leg and stomach. He was a very good plaster

17 technician, so he applied a plaster cast to her upper leg.

18 Q. Do you know if he remained in the hospital or whether he left the

19 hospital?

20 A. No. On the morning of the 19th of November, Bogdan Kuzmic came to

21 the hospital. And on the morning of the 19th, a JNA captain also appeared

22 who told me his last name was Radic. After that, Marko Mandic disappeared

23 from the Vukovar Hospital as well as some other ambulance drivers.

24 Q. I'd like to deal with the behaviour of the -- what you have

25 described, the paramilitary soldiers who replaced the JNA on the evening

Page 1527

1 of the 18th. Do you follow?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did the -- can you tell the Court if the behaviour towards

4 patients changed throughout this period.

5 A. Yes. On the evening of the 18th after, as I have said, Bogdan

6 Kuzmic and the JNA captain -- rather, after they arrived in the hospital

7 and inspected all the basement rooms in which the wounded and sick were,

8 after they left and when I managed to go and see some of those wounded and

9 sick people, they told me that they had been physically and mentally

10 abused and that they were afraid for their lives.

11 Q. Did they say what way -- when you say the phrase "physically

12 abused," did the patients describe what was being done to them? And from

13 now on, please, can we refer to the captain as Captain Radic so we know

14 exactly who we're talking about.

15 A. They told me that in each of the rooms they entered they called

16 them Ustashas, they called them slaughterers. They told them that they

17 would meet the very same end and that they knew full well who had been

18 doing what in Vukovar, cursing them all the time. They tried to touch

19 those parts of their bodies, which on account of their injuries were

20 hurting the most.

21 Q. As a surgeon, can you just explain the significance of wounds that

22 have been caused by shrapnel or artillery fire, the nature of the injury,

23 please.

24 A. There is a significant difference between wounds caused by a rifle

25 bullet or those caused by shrapnel, no matter if they were caused by bombs

Page 1528

1 dropped by planes or shells fired by mortars, guns, or rather, artillery

2 weapons.

3 There is a third difference, too. Phosphorous bombs were also

4 dropped on Vukovar. These have a particularly horrific effect on those

5 hit, or rather, on those whose bodies are affected by burning phosphorous.

6 Q. How exposed is a wound usually if it is a direct consequence of

7 shrapnel?

8 A. When is person is hit by shrapnel, there is seldom just one

9 wound. There's usually a lot of shrapnel, and shrapnel being of irregular

10 shape it tends to bring into the wound, so to speak, all of the

11 surrounding material that the wounded person may happen to wear at the

12 time, some of the dust present in the environment, pieces of wood, pieces

13 of dirt. Shrapnel propels these bits of matter, as it were, at great

14 speed so that these bits of wood and even bones shattered by shrapnel

15 become, as it were, secondary or additional shrapnel or shards that may

16 prove to cause even greater damage to the tissue.

17 A gun-shot wound has a point of entry. It drills a channel

18 through the flesh, as it were. This depends on whether we are talking

19 about a dumb-dumb bullet or just a regular, standard issue bullet. This

20 depends on the calibre of the rifle that was used to fire the bullet. As

21 I said, there is an entry, there is a channel through which the bullet

22 passes, and there is usually an exit. And the exit channel and entry all

23 depend on these factors that I have enumerated.

24 Q. You've told us that the patients had said that Radic and Kuzmic

25 had tried to touch those parts of their bodies that had been injured. Are

Page 1529

1 you, as a surgeon, able to assess the level of pain --

2 MR. BOROVIC: Objection, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Borovic.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. This was

5 not the first occasion, but I didn't react earlier. Later on I will

6 explain to you, when the time comes, the character of this evidence.

7 The Prosecutor keeps putting words into the witness's mouth, and

8 now he has gone too far. He never put questions about Captain Radic,

9 linking him to any wounds and so on. Later on we will try to establish

10 whether this was Captain Radic at all or not. But I would like to ask my

11 colleague from the Prosecution not to put any more leading questions.

12 MR. MOORE: With the utmost respect, I did clarify the

13 identification of the captain on the 19th. I brought it back to

14 the 18th. The witness referred specifically to "the captain" and "Kuzmic"

15 going into the hospital. I will locate, if I can, the part of evidence

16 that was given in relation to it. Would Your Honour forgive me one

17 moment?

18 JUDGE PARKER: Can I say, Mr. Moore, while you're looking, my note

19 and recollection is that the witness said after the two people, one of who

20 he named as Captain Radic had left.

21 MR. MOORE: Correct.

22 JUDGE PARKER: And there is nothing to -- and he spoke of the

23 paramilitaries doing these things. I don't think there is any link in the

24 evidence between these threats to patients and the physical handling of

25 them and the two people who did an inspection with the doctor. If there

Page 1530

1 is such a link, I don't believe it has yet emerged in the evidence.

2 MR. MOORE: I'm trying to locate, but certainly Your Honour's

3 recollection is correct that there was reference to Kuzmic and Radic going

4 to inspect. The doctor then said that he spoke to the patients after they

5 had left and they complained --

6 JUDGE PARKER: My note --

7 MR. MOORE: -- that they had been physically and mentally abused.

8 JUDGE PARKER: -- is of paramilitaries.

9 MR. MOORE: Well, perhaps I can clarify it --


11 MR. MOORE: -- with the witness. That's probably the easiest way.

12 JUDGE PARKER: And the point is - I think that is the core of

13 Mr. Borovic's objection - you're making a positive connection that isn't

14 presently established by the evidence.

15 MR. MOORE: May I just look at the transcript for one moment,

16 please.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 MR. MOORE: May I just read out what I have located on the

19 transcript. At 34 -- it really starts at 5. The question:

20 "Can you tell the Court if the behaviour towards the patients

21 changed throughout this period?

22 "A. Yes. On the evening of the 18th, after, as I've said, Kuzmic

23 and the JNA captain, rather, after they arrived in the hospital and

24 inspected all the basement rooms in which the wounded and sick were, after

25 they left, when I managed to go and see some of those wounded and sick

Page 1531

1 people, they told me they had been physically and mentally abused and they

2 were afraid for their lives.

3 "Q. Did they say what way? When you say the phrase 'physically

4 abused,' did the patients describe what had been done to them? And from

5 now on, please, can we refer to the captain as Captain Radic.

6 "A. They told me that in each of the rooms they entered, they

7 called them Ustashas. They called them slaughterers. They told them that

8 they would meet the very same end, and they knew full well who had been

9 doing what in Vukovar, cursing them all the time. They tried to touch

10 those parts of their bodies, which on account of their injuries were

11 hurting the most."

12 There's no reference at all to TOs. The "they" by logical

13 construction refers to both Radic and Kuzmic. There is no reference at

14 all to the TOs or paramilitaries inflicting this. The logical inference,

15 in my submission, is the two gentlemen who went in, Radic and Kuzmic.

16 JUDGE PARKER: I would suggest, Mr. Moore, that instead of logical

17 inferences you might find what is the actual evidence of the witness about

18 this, whether there were only these two people who had inspected the

19 basement and so on. But at the moment, I would suggest that Mr. Borovic

20 is well entitled to object to your positive assertion on the basis of that

21 evidence, that that is the effect of the present evidence. So it's just a

22 matter of clarification.

23 Now, is there something more, Ms. Tapuskovic?

24 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 In order to clarify this issue whether the witness said that this

Page 1532

1 involved two persons, one of whom was Captain Radic and the other

2 Mr. Kuzmic, or that he referred to representatives of paramilitary

3 organisations, I would simply like to say that on page 33 or 34, line 24,

4 reflects a question put by Mr. Moore: "I'd like to deal with the

5 behaviour of what you described as paramilitary soldiers who replaced the

6 JNA on the evening of the 18th. Do you follow?"

7 Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Tapuskovic. But I think

9 that will indicate to you, Mr. Moore, if it hadn't been to this moment why

10 I have understood this evidence to be referring to conduct of

11 paramilitaries. Yes.

12 MR. MOORE: I'll endeavour to clarify, and I hope in a non-leading

13 way.

14 JUDGE PARKER: That will be wonderful, Mr. Moore.


16 Q. Doctor, you have described to us complaints made to you about

17 abuse of patients. Did the patients say who it was who was abusing them

18 and hurting them?

19 A. Yes, they did say that. Since most of them, or at least some of

20 them, knew Bogdan Kuzmic, they mentioned him; the captain accompanied him.

21 I must say that they didn't say so often that he was the one insulting

22 them and cursing them, but he did inflict pain on the wounded. What they

23 told me is that they were the precursors of the mistreatment that was to

24 follow. Later on during the night, certain members of paramilitary

25 formations entered their rooms, as did even JNA soldiers. They also

Page 1533

1 continued mistreating them in both ways.

2 Q. Can I then deal, please, with the next occasion that you saw or

3 met Captain Radic. For sequence, would you be kind enough, please, to

4 tell us when it was and, again, what he said to you on the 19th.

5 A. On the 19th of November, 1991, at around 9.00 or 10.00, at any

6 rate before noon, as I have said a JNA captain showed up. He introduced

7 himself to me then as Captain Radic. He told me that pursuant to the

8 orders of his superior, he would shut me in a room from which I was not

9 allowed to go out. On that occasion, he also took a medical technician,

10 Ante Aric.

11 Q. And how long did you stay in that room for?

12 A. There was a guard in front of the room, and I remained in that

13 room until evening, until about 7.00, when the guard moved away. I then

14 went to see the wounded and sick. And as it was impossible to provide any

15 further medical assistance, I tried to calm the wounded and sick and give

16 them some hope, although they had become hopeless after all the

17 mistreatment. They lost any hope that they would survive.

18 Q. Can I just deal with the situation before we move on, the

19 situation in relation to Captain Radic introducing himself. Here we have

20 a situation where you are aware that allegations are being made that the

21 wounded are being mistreated. Did you ever tell Captain Radic that there

22 had been complaints by the patients about mistreatment?

23 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Tapuskovic.

24 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your

25 permission on page 40, line 4, I saw that my learned friend from the

Page 1534

1 Prosecution is directly placing words in the witness's mouth; therefore, I

2 object to this line of questioning. This is a typical example of leading

3 questions being put to the witness. This was just one of the examples.

4 MR. MOORE: I submit that is not a leading question. Evidence has

5 being given in relation to a scenario where there has been evidence in

6 respect of complaints made to the doctor. I am perfectly entitled to ask

7 or to direct the doctor's attention to the issue before the Court and to

8 ask whether in actual fact those complaints were ever communicated to --

9 those complaints were ever directed to captain -- whether he directed

10 those complaints to Captain Radic. That is not a leading question. It is

11 an option -- or the witness has an option either to say yes or no. A

12 leading question specifically directs the witness to one particular

13 answer.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

15 On this occasion, I agree with what you have put, Mr. Moore. The

16 question is in two parts. The first is directing attention to a

17 particular part of the previous evidence, and the second is asking

18 directly whether that has been passed on to Captain Radic.

19 I don't see in that a leading question, Mrs. Tapuskovic.

20 Carry on, please, Mr. Moore.


22 Q. Are you able to assist us?

23 A. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor. I talked to them, or rather I asked Captain

24 Radic because he told me that he had studied together with a doctor --

25 that as a student he knew a doctor who used to work in the Vukovar

Page 1535

1 Hospital. Therefore, later on I asked him whether he knew why the wounded

2 in the Vukovar Hospital had been mistreated the previous night and why

3 they had been tortured. He replied that it was pursuant to the orders or

4 upon permission of the commander, Major Sljivancanin.

5 Q. You -- do carry on, sorry. My apologies.

6 A. And then in passing he said to Ante Aric that, It would be good if

7 you changed some of the clothing you have on you.

8 Q. Can I just stop you for a moment. Clearly you've told us about

9 being placed in a room, and I asked you about whether you asked Captain

10 Radic a question or not. Let us move on in time to when you were in the

11 room with Aric. Now, did Aric ever leave that room?

12 A. Yes. Aric did leave the room.

13 Q. Can you tell us when, approximately?

14 A. In the morning at around 10.00, or perhaps 11.00, I think it was

15 about 10.00, accompanied by Captain Radic.

16 Q. And was there any conversation in your hearing between Radic and

17 Aric?

18 A. No, except for what I said about Captain Aric saying to Ante Aric

19 that he had to change some of his clothing -- or rather, that it would be

20 a good idea if he changed some of the clothing and footwear he had on him.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, Captain Radic.


23 Q. And what sort of footwear did Aric have on?

24 A. Aric had some type of boots on his feet. As for his clothing,

25 under a white coat, because he was a medical technician and he wore one,

Page 1536

1 he had a T-shirt which was similar to a camouflage T-shirt.

2 Q. And how long was Aric away for? Are you able to help us on that?

3 A. Yes. Aric was absent for almost 24 hours. He appeared on the

4 following day sometime around noon or 2.00 p.m., once again accompanied by

5 Captain Radic, who had taken him away.

6 Q. Did you speak to Aric about what had happened to him in that

7 24-hour period?

8 A. Yes. Aric told me that he was taken to a room, where they put him

9 on a chair, where they tied him. Then they pulled his head back, opened

10 his mouth, and poured a bottle of wine in so that he was almost completely

11 out. Prior to that, they questioned him. And as they were not pleased

12 with his answers, they acted in the manner described by me.

13 Q. Did he say who was present at this incident?

14 A. Yes. He said that Major Sljivancanin was present.

15 Q. And did he indicate what sort of questions were being asked of

16 him?

17 A. He asked him why he had come from Zagreb to Vukovar, what was the

18 reason for that, whether he brought in weapons, whether he used weapons,

19 where he hid weapons, whom he had killed, who issued orders to him.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know where Aric actually came from?

21 Was he a local of Vukovar?

22 A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. Mr. Ante Aric was a medical technician born

23 in Slavonia, born and grew up and lived in Zagreb.

24 Q. I would now like to move on in time, if I may, to the evening of

25 the 19th, morning of the 20th of November. Did you remain in the small

Page 1537

1 room that you had been placed?

2 A. In the evening of the 19th of November. As I have said, at around

3 1900 hours he -- or rather, the guard who stood in front of the room where

4 I was shut disappeared. Therefore, I was able to go out and visit the

5 wounded, sick, and others. I also went to see my wife, because on the

6 17th of November a large number of residents of Vukovar came to the

7 hospital, fearing for their lives, seeking salvation at the hospital.

8 Q. When you went out and you met your wife, if we move on to the

9 morning of the 20th, did you have any contact with any officers of the JNA

10 or other military personnel?

11 A. No, not until the morning. However, in the morning, on the 20th

12 of November, at around 8.00, once again Major Sljivancanin appeared at the

13 hospital and ordered all medical staff to assemble in a room that was used

14 to put plaster on patients' extremities whenever needed. Almost entire

15 medical staff, almost all of us, did assemble there.

16 Q. Was Sljivancanin alone at that time?

17 A. Major Sljivancanin then entered the room on his own, although he

18 had been escorted as far as the room by someone who I believed had the

19 rank of lieutenant colonel, a man by the last name of Ivezic who was a

20 surgeon. I didn't know his first name. He was working as a surgeon in

21 Novi Sad. He did not come into the plaster room, but rather Major

22 Sljivancanin did.

23 Q. When Major Sljivancanin came into the room, can you remember what

24 he said to the assembled people?

25 A. Yes. The words are impossible to forget. When he started

Page 1538

1 speaking first he said, I am Major Veselin Sljivancanin, a major of the

2 Yugoslav People's Army. I am the one giving orders here. Everything is

3 under my command. Do not be confused by all these people in military

4 uniforms, different military uniforms with different insignia. These are

5 young people, and nowadays young people like to dress in all sorts of ways

6 and wear all sorts of different insignia. This speech lasted for about --

7 well, up to one hour.

8 Q. Have you any idea approximately what time Sljivancanin made that

9 speech? Please don't guess if you're not sure.

10 A. He made that speech - and this is something that I'll never

11 forget - on the 20th of November, 1991, at about 8.00 in the morning.

12 Q. What happened to you after Sljivancanin had made this address to

13 the people?

14 A. Once Sljivancanin had addressed the people, I was again placed in

15 detention. However, in the corridor outside the plaster room I saw a

16 number of nurses and other non-medical staff.

17 Q. Did you at any time speak to the gentleman that you called Ivezic?

18 A. Yes. That day, that morning, following Major Sljivancanin's

19 speech in the plaster room, some of the staff who had not attended the

20 meeting told me that a major number of wounded were taken to a special

21 exit from the hospital. I asked Ivezic, counting on some degree of

22 solidarity between doctors, what had become of the wounded and where they

23 were.

24 Q. And did he reply to that question?

25 A. Yes. He said, Colleague - because that's how he addressed me -

Page 1539

1 everything here is happening according to orders Major Sljivancanin. For

2 this reason, I'm unable to answer your question.

3 Q. Do you know of anybody else from the hospital spoke to Ivezic in

4 respect of the missing individuals?

5 A. Yes. Right there and then I saw Marica Mokos, a nurse who was

6 crying, addressing Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel Ivezic asking him to

7 bring back her husband as well as some other persons who had also been led

8 away to the buses on which there were already some wounded. Lieutenant

9 colonel replied, For that I need to go and speak to Major Ivezic.

10 Q. That can't be right. I think that may be an error.

11 A. I need to go and speak to Major Sljivancanin. I'm sorry. I need

12 to go and ask him for permission so that I would be able to bring your

13 husband back from the bus and to the hospital.

14 Q. Do you know the name of that person who spoke to Ivezic?

15 A. Marica -- Nurse Marica Mokos, M-o-k-o-s.

16 Q. Were you at any time personally aware of people having been

17 removed from the hospital that morning?

18 A. At this time I was personally aware because, as I have said

19 already, I had been told by those who were not in the plaster room. These

20 help workers told me that a large number of wounded had been taken away

21 and hoarded onto buses. This occurred on the side of the hospital where

22 the exit is facing the road that crosses the entire town of Vukovar.

23 Q. Can I just -- I may come back to that topic in a moment, but did

24 you at any time see either a monitor or a Red Cross representative on the

25 morning of the 20th?

Page 1540

1 A. On the morning of the 20th, I did not see any representatives of

2 the International Red Cross. It wasn't before 1400 hours.

3 Q. Can I ask you then, please, to look at a diagram that you have

4 drawn and that has been tendered as -- will be tendered, I hope, as an

5 exhibit. It's ERN number 04643050. So there's no mystery about this, to

6 assist the Court, in what will be called reproofing, the witness drew this

7 map and the Court should have a copy of it. Can that be shown on the

8 screen? If it can't, we have hard copies. You'll forgive me a moment

9 while I just locate my copy.

10 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber would appreciate the hard copies,

11 Mr. Moore. Thank you.

12 MR. MOORE: I think there are three copies.

13 Q. Doctor, we're now in the electronically, revolutionary stage. I'm

14 going to see if we can use the magic pencil to point out one or two parts

15 of this map. And if I'm wrong, forgive me, it's your evidence, not mine.

16 Let us just confirm that this is a map that you drew, I think, two

17 days ago. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, correct.

19 Q. This is entirely of your making without assistance?

20 A. Correct, yes.

21 Q. In general terms what does it show?

22 A. It shows the basement of the Vukovar Hospital, the way it was

23 during the attack and aggression against Vukovar.

24 Q. The way I try and deal - note the word try and deal - with maps

25 and diagrams is I imagine it as a clock with the figures 12 around to 3 on

Page 1541

1 the right, 6 at the bottom, and 9 on the left. Now, if we look at what I

2 would call 12.00, there appears to be parallel lines inside a box. What

3 is that, please? What does that represent?

4 A. If we are looking at 12.00, then this is the main entrance to the

5 Vukovar Hospital, and then down to the basement. But this supplied to

6 those patients where no urgent intervention was required.

7 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you the questions; if you can just

8 keep your answers fairly short and we'll try and locate where is where.

9 So can you just put just a dot, please, where you say the main

10 entrance is. Use the pen to touch the electronic screen.

11 Well, I haven't seen anything as yet.

12 MR. MOORE: Does the Court have any indication?


14 Yes.

15 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

16 MR. MOORE: Right.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Now, would you be kind enough just to mark

18 that as number 1.

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Thank you. Could you please point out the other main exits or

21 entrances for that hospital, doing it systematically, one at a time,

22 telling us what is what.

23 A. I'm using a number 2 to mark it. This is the main entrance that

24 was always used to enter the hospital for urgent cases as well as regular

25 ones, and it was also used by visitors.

Page 1542

1 Q. Thank you. Can you just listen to the question, please. The

2 building itself, does it have -- you mentioned the plaster room. Where is

3 the plaster room?

4 A. I will use a number 3 to mark the plaster room, which was in the

5 basement next to the surgical clinic.

6 Q. That's number 3 on the diagram. Can we see close to that number

7 any exit or entrance for the basement?

8 A. Yes. I'm using a number 4 to mark the emergency admission and

9 emergency surgery.

10 Q. You have just made a mark after number 4 where there seems to be

11 arrows. What exactly is that?

12 A. The arrows show the spot where an ambulance could approach the

13 building to bring the wounded to the emergency ward as well as the

14 emergency entrance to the basement and to the surgery clinics to the left

15 and right.

16 Q. If we look at what I will call 5.00, there appears to be a bent

17 arrow above the date of the 9th of the 11th. Do you see that?

18 A. Yes. This is number 5. This is the so-called gynaecology

19 entrance.

20 Q. Now, would you be kind enough, then, please, to show us with an X

21 where it was Major Sljivancanin had his meeting.

22 A. Please pay close attention to number 3. I will use the number X

23 to mark that room. This is the room where Major Sljivancanin made a

24 speech.

25 Q. And would you be kind enough, using the figure Y, to indicate

Page 1543

1 where your small room was that you were kept in.

2 A. I'm pointing at the small room in which I was detained.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, the individuals who had been removed, are you

4 able to show on the diagram with Z where it was they had been located

5 before their removal?

6 A. By your leave, I will show you where the wounded were. Next I

7 will show you how they were led away. This is number 5.

8 Q. But I would like to do, please, is to do it one at a time. Where

9 were the individuals located before they were removed?

10 A. Before they were removed they were located next to this letter Y.

11 Next to it there's a waiting room.

12 Q. Could you draw, please, on the electronic board the place where

13 the wounded people had been kept before being removed.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Well, you have drawn dots. Can you perhaps do it in something

16 that's slightly more obvious.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. And is it a case they were in small groups or this denotes, what I

19 will call, a general area?

20 A. These circles comprised the entire area that's been marked. It

21 was filled to bursting point, as it were. There was no room to fit a

22 needle or, indeed, to pass between all the wounded and ill. There was

23 simply too many people in this area.

24 Q. Thank you very much. That's the first part.

25 May we deal with the second. You said that -- how they were

Page 1544

1 removed. Can you show, please, on the diagram how it was and where they

2 were removed to.

3 A. The wounded where you can see the circles. Wounded were removed

4 from each of these circles, and exit number 5 was used to take them out of

5 the hospital and herd them on to buses.

6 Q. When you say "exit 5," is that the --

7 MR. MOORE: I see Mr. Lukic has a question.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just an intervention. I'm talking

11 about page 51, line 8. The witness said that a number of wounded were

12 removed from each of the circles, and if he can please confirm that.

13 MR. MOORE: Well, with the utmost respect, I thought the witness

14 had indicated -- he had drawn circles and then had gone on to say you

15 couldn't put a needle between them. I thought I'd actually clarified the

16 issue of whether this was small bundles of people or whether it was a

17 larger group.

18 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber has no doubt that many wounded were

19 removed from each of the areas marked by circles. If that helps you,

20 Mr. Lukic, that is the effect of the language that's used by the doctor.

21 MR. MOORE: Well, I'll clarify then if --

22 Q. Doctor, you may not be an artist. You have drawn small circles on

23 your map. Does this indicate that there are small groups of people at

24 these locations or does it indicate that there was the whole area covered?

25 Can you please clarify.

Page 1545

1 A. The whole area that I have encircled or where I placed circles was

2 filled with wounded people. But as you can see, there were a number of

3 petitions in certain places and that's why I used small circles to mark

4 these spots, just in order to show that all these rooms were brimming with

5 the wounded.

6 Q. And you used the word "brimming with the wounded." When you came

7 out of the meeting, was the area still brimming with the wound?

8 A. I apologise. When I left the meeting at number 3 and passed the

9 area between number 3 and the letter Y, I met Lieutenant Colonel Ivezic

10 and Nurse Marica Mokos. I learned that a large group of wounded had been

11 taken away by entrance -- exit number 5. I knew that in these rooms that

12 I have marked there were a lot less wounded.

13 Q. Can we then move on, please. You say that they were taken out of

14 exit 5. If we look at the diagram itself, what is to the right of the

15 diagram? Can you describe it to us.

16 A. On the right side of this sketch there is an exit from the

17 hospital. In front of the exit there is an area where buses had been

18 parked in which the wounded were placed or, better said, herded, those who

19 had been taken from the basement through the gynaecology entrance.

20 Q. Again, I'd ask you, from the actual Vukovar Hospital to the

21 bridges over the Vuka River, are you able to assess what the distance

22 would be?

23 A. From the hospital to the bridges there is a distance of some 400

24 to 500 metres.

25 Q. I at this time have no further questions in relation to this

Page 1546

1 document.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, first did you want number 6 to be

3 marked, that external exit and buses? Or is that off the plan?

4 MR. MOORE: I better ask the doctor.

5 Q. Number 6, can we see number 6 where the road is that runs to the

6 Vuka River? Would you be kind enough to mark it for us.

7 A. The number 6 here depicts six buses into which they herded the

8 wounded. I will indicate with dots the exit used by the buses to leave

9 the compound as they headed towards the Vuka.

10 Q. And the dots that seemed to go to the north, or to 12.00, is that

11 the direction of the Vuka?

12 A. Yes. The direction of the Vuka and the bridges over that river.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Do you tender this plan, Mr. Moore?

15 MR. MOORE: I do, please.

16 JUDGE PARKER: I'm anxious that we don't lose it, given that

17 there's a time. It will be received.

18 MR. MOORE: I don't know if the Court are considering having a

19 short break. If the Court is considering that, this might be a convenient

20 moment.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It is going to be a convenient moment, Mr. Moore.

22 We've hung on trying to ensure that we could finish with this plan and get

23 it tendered before it was electronically lost.

24 MR. MOORE: Yes.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the plan is being saved and it will

Page 1547

1 be Exhibit Number 64.

2 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will adjourn and resume at 1.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.

6 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I'm told that perhaps it would be prudent

7 also to put the original document in unmarked as an exhibit. I don't know

8 if my learned friends would agree with that course. I thought it would be

9 sensible.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

11 THE REGISTRAR: This will be exhibit number 65, Your Honours.

12 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

13 Q. Doctor, you said that you had not seen any monitors or Red Cross

14 representatives on the 20th, my recollection is until about 2.00, but I

15 may be in error on that. When did you actually first come across the

16 Red Cross/monitors?

17 A. The first time I saw the Red Cross representative was on the 18th,

18 as I have said, in front of the hospital when he talked to Major

19 Sljivancanin, that is, Nicholas Borsinger. The other meeting with a

20 representative of the International Red Cross was on the 20th at around

21 1400 hours. A representative of the International Red Cross came to the

22 hospital, to the basement. He approached me and talked to me. He asked

23 me whether I knew how many patients there were and what had happened to

24 cause the situation where there were very few medical staff members,

25 wounded, and patients in the hospital. This representative of the Red

Page 1548

1 Cross was a young person, shortish. In my view, this representative of

2 the International Red Cross was an Italian.

3 Q. Did you speak any Italian at that time?

4 A. I can understand Italian. I have some passive knowledge of the

5 language, and I think that that was quite sufficient for us to be able to

6 communicate and to explain what had happened in the Vukovar Hospital.

7 Q. As far as you're aware, what was the topic of discussion with the

8 International Red Cross representative?

9 A. The conversation with the representative of the International

10 Red Cross was as follows. What is the treatment that the wounded receive?

11 Were Geneva Conventions complied with? And would I make a list of the

12 remaining wounded still in the hospital.

13 Q. And did you make a list of the remaining people at the hospital?

14 A. Following the conversation with the International Red Cross, an

15 anaesthesiologist from the military medical academy in Belgrade came with

16 me. He went alongside and checked whether I put on the list all of the

17 wounded remaining in the hospital. I made the list in two copies, one of

18 which was taken over by the representative of the International Red Cross

19 and the other one by the anaesthesiologist from the military medical

20 economy.

21 Q. What happened to you that day after your discussion with the

22 representative of the Red Cross?

23 A. On that day after the list was made up, the one received both by

24 the representative of the International Red Cross and the military

25 representative, because that's who the anaesthesiologist from the military

Page 1549

1 medical academy was. He also had a rank.

2 So after they took the lists, it was getting closer to twilight -

3 it was close to 5.00 - Captain Radic came to the hospital and an officer,

4 a lady officer. I believe that she was a major of some 40, 45 years.

5 Upon entering the hospital, they took me out of the room that I've pointed

6 out to the Trial Chamber. This lady officer came up to me and asked me

7 why I had been arrested.

8 Q. When this occurred, where was the Red Cross representative?

9 A. The International Red Cross representative was present; he watched

10 this. Once he saw me being led away into a military vehicle which was

11 parked in the area in front of the emergency admission, the one you could

12 see on the sketch, he protested about them once again violating

13 international conventions which applied to the hospitals and medical

14 staff.

15 Q. And what was the outcome of his protest?

16 A. They denied the protest. They told him that it was none of his

17 concern. This involvement of the International Red Cross representative

18 angered the lady officer, and she ordered the soldier who had been

19 guarding me up at that time to take me to a prison.

20 Q. If we can deal with this in a shortened form. Where were you

21 actually taken to?

22 A. As I was ordered to enter a military vehicle, Ante Aric came with

23 Captain Radic. Ante Aric, pursuant to an order, was also put on the

24 military vehicle. After that, the lady officer came into the vehicle.

25 She sat next to the driver. Behind them were the soldier and Captain

Page 1550

1 Radic. We were then taken to the barracks, which was located in Vukovar

2 in an area known as Sajmiste.

3 Q. Have you any idea of the approximate time that you were taken away

4 in a military vehicle with various parties, including Captain Radic?

5 A. As it was in November, on the 20th of November, I think that this

6 transpired at around 5.00 so that we arrived in the barracks which is not

7 located far away. But due to damaged streets and roads, it took us

8 somewhat longer to reach it, some 15 minutes perhaps. That's how long it

9 took us to get to the barracks.

10 Q. You have described seeing Captain Radic at 5.00, approximately,

11 that evening. Do you know -- and you have mentioned the International

12 Red Cross representative at approximately 2.00. Did you see Captain Radic

13 between the hours of 2.00 and 5.00 that day?

14 A. No, no. I didn't see him until he escorted Ante Aric and placed

15 him in detention in the same room where I was.

16 Q. And again, the same question in relation to Major Sljivancanin. I

17 know about the meeting but I'll still just deal with the timings, 2.00

18 until 5.00, did you see Major Sljivancanin at all through that period?

19 A. No. After the meeting in the plaster room in the morning where

20 Major Sljivancanin gave a speech that I've already described to the Trial

21 Chamber, I didn't see him again.

22 Q. Thank you. May we deal with the JNA barracks, which are just

23 outside Vukovar itself. How long did you remain there?

24 A. I remained in the Vukovar barracks for about an hour. They

25 separated Ante Aric there and they brought in Dr. Bosanac. She and I were

Page 1551

1 put in a personnel carrier, military personnel carrier, and taken to the

2 village of Negoslavci. And then via Sidski Banovci, Oriolik, Tovarnik we

3 travelled to Sid.

4 Q. Thank you. I'd like you to look at Exhibit 59, which is going to

5 be map 6. I don't know if we've got a hard copy or whether we can do it

6 by electronic form. I would prefer the witness to have a hard copy,

7 please, if there's one available.

8 MR. MOORE: Can I pass this to the witness, please. Yes. Thank

9 you very much.

10 Q. Doctor, this is a map of what I would call the Ovcara hinterland,

11 and I'd like to go on what I would call a voyage of discovery together in

12 respect of some locations.

13 How long had you been in Vukovar prior to 1991?

14 A. At that time I had already been about 25 years in Vukovar.

15 Q. And how good was your knowledge of what I will call the local

16 hinterland?

17 A. I think I knew the hinterland well.

18 Q. Would you be kind enough, please, to look at the map which is on

19 your right. Can you see it? You've actually got a hard copy on your

20 right which is a lot clearer --

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. If you look at the map on your right, it's a hard copy; it's much

23 clearer than this computer representation.

24 Now, we can see that this is Vukovar itself on the Danube. Do you

25 see that?

Page 1552

1 A. Yes, yes. I can see that.

2 Q. Using the clock-face again, if we drop immediately south, we can

3 see the village of Negoslavci. Do you see that? I'm sure the usher will

4 help you. It says "Negoslavci."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you very much there. There is a reference to the JNA

7 barracks and Velepromet. Do you see that on the map? Can you

8 answer "yes" please.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then if we look at what I will call 4.00 we have got Ovcara.

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you very much. If one was going to Ovcara by the normal

14 route, by the road, by the road, in 1991 and you were leaving the JNA

15 barracks, can you please point out to us the route on the road, the Tarmac

16 road, that one would normally take. Are you able to do that for us?

17 A. Yes. In 1991 if one went to Ovcara but taking the asphalt road,

18 then one would go from the Velepromet into the downtown area and

19 then if -- coming from Velepromet, then one would turn right into the

20 street called Stijepana Radica [phoen] and then continue along that road

21 towards Mitnica, which is an area of the town located in the eastern

22 section of Vukovar.

23 Following that, one would take the road leading to Sotin, and

24 prior to reaching Sotin there was a farm and -- a cattle farm called

25 Jakubovac. From then one would turn towards Ovcara, which was known as a

Page 1553

1 cattle farm, or rather, a farm for raising pigs and oxen.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, if one goes back to the JNA barracks again and we

3 have the road to Negoslavci, which we can see and I've referred you to,

4 are you or were you aware at that time of any other way to get to Ovcara

5 without going through Vukovar?

6 A. Personally, although I often went to Negoslavci as well as the

7 surrounding villages, I never took a different route to Sotin. Therefore,

8 I was not aware of any other way to get to Ovcara aside from the one that

9 I have just indicated. I didn't even know that there was a field road or

10 field path from in front of Negoslavci and on to Ovcara.

11 Q. When did you discover that there was what I will call -- or you

12 called a field road from just before Negoslavci to Ovcara?

13 A. Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor, I learned about the existence of

14 this road from those who survived the tragic trip to Ovcara. That was the

15 first I learned of the existence of that road.

16 Q. Thank you very much. If you can just put that map away.

17 How long were you kept in custody? You've told us that you were

18 taken to the JNA barracks and Dr. Bosanac was there. Perhaps it's my use

19 of the word "custody." What happened after you had seen Dr. Bosanac?

20 A. While I was alone with the guard in the car the former judge of

21 the Vukovar court was there and asked me about certain judges from

22 Vukovar, if I knew what had become of them or what they had been doing.

23 After that, he left and they brought Dr. Bosanac. We both got in that APC

24 and she told me that they had taken her for an interview with Lieutenant

25 Colonel Mrksic in Negoslavci.

Page 1554

1 Q. Can I just deal, though, with this day. Here you are at the JNA

2 barracks. Where were you taken after there, please?

3 A. After that, if you look at the sketch, we were close to

4 Velepromet. The JNA barracks was across the way from there. We were

5 taken there. We were taken to Negoslavci in an APC. In Negoslavci, they

6 let us out of the APC, and it was extremely unpleasant because we received

7 verbal threats from people and they were making the slit-throat gesture,

8 meaning we would have our throats slit.

9 However, at this time no one managed to come close to us and we

10 continued, as I said, over Borovik and Sidski Banovci, these are villages

11 on the way, and Tovarnik, this is still in Croatia, until we reached Sid,

12 a town in Serbia, a town in Vojvodina, which is part of Serbia.

13 Q. I'm going to ask you to stop for a moment and then I want to quite

14 deliberately take you back to a topic in respect of treatment of patients.

15 It's perfectly clear that there were civilians and wounded, what I would

16 call, military personnel, both JNA and Croatian, in the hospital. Do you

17 agree?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Did you distinguish between those categories when it came to

20 treatment?

21 A. No. That would have run counter to all ethical principles, to

22 humanitarian law, to the science of medicine. It would also have been

23 against our commitment as human beings to a humanitarian profession such

24 as medicine.

25 Q. We also know that there was a room specifically for wounded JNA

Page 1555

1 soldiers. Is that correct or not?

2 A. That is correct. Your Honours, as you know, I said earlier how

3 many wounded people kept coming. At certain points in time, those wounded

4 who were already in the hospital fighting for their lives or merely

5 recovering, because of what they felt at the time would have been likely

6 to harm JNA soldiers or members of paramilitary Chetnik units who were

7 there. This precisely was the reason why they were given the best

8 possible medical attention and assistance and placed in a special room so

9 that they were not subjected to taunts and verbal threats or even physical

10 incidents. This was the reason why there was always a guard standing

11 outside their room providing security for them.

12 Q. Whose idea was it to have the JNA soldiers placed in a separate

13 room; do you know?

14 A. Yes. Knowing that there is a lot of unbridled emotion in wartime

15 which unfortunately seems to be the rule not the exception, and given the

16 fact that there were many elderly people and children in Vukovar, people

17 aged between 80 and 90 in old people's homes, as well as children aged six

18 months, there was a need to protect the soldiers from exposure to these

19 emotional states characterised by high stress levels. And that is why

20 Dr. Bosanac and I made a joint decision to have them isolated in a special

21 room.

22 Q. Did you know a JNA soldier there who was called Sasa Jovic?

23 A. Yes. There were two groups of JNA soldiers. One was Sinisa

24 Miljkovic, the other was Jovic, and the third was Pavle Teofanovic. They

25 were together in the room. Their injuries were serious and

Page 1556

1 life-threatening.

2 Sasa Jovic was an officer, and once he had recovered and realised

3 how we had been treating him at the hospital, him as well as all the other

4 wounded and sick, he requested that he speak to General Raseta. His

5 request was met. He told him, Dear General, these people are saving our

6 lives and yet you are destroying this hospital where lives are being

7 saved. Please protect the hospital because everybody is given the same

8 kind of treatment here and treated alike, regardless of their uniforms or

9 affiliations.

10 Q. Thank you. Can you remember when Jovic -- if we use the 18th of

11 November as a reference point, can you remember when it was Jovic made

12 that telephone call or spoke to Raseta? If you can't, do say so.

13 A. I can't remember specifically the date, but it must have been at

14 least ten days, more possibly, before the hospital was occupied.

15 Q. Thank you. Do you know or did you know at that time a gentleman

16 called Dr. Ivankovic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And who was Dr. Ivankovic, please?

19 A. Dr. Mladen Ivankovic is a surgeon. He's a competent surgeon. He

20 came to the Vukovar Hospital later on. Among us ordinary surgeons, so to

21 speak, who were not members of the League of Communists or the Communist

22 Party, we always believed that he had been given a job there by a party

23 decision because he also happened to be the party secretary, a

24 commissioner in the Vukovar Hospital. Soon after, he was given a piece of

25 land in a very favourable spot, unlike many other doctors who had been

Page 1557

1 working in the Vukovar Hospital for a long time significantly contributing

2 to the general health situation in Vukovar.

3 Q. And do you know Tomislav Djuranac?

4 A. Dr. Tomislav Djuranac worked in Borovo as a general practitioner.

5 In our medical circles, by the way, he was not held in particularly high

6 regard. The reason was quite simple. He was prone to perhaps have a drop

7 too many on -- more often than not.

8 Q. Thank you. Can I now move back to you going to Sid on the 20th

9 when you were under what I will call JNA custody. Where did you

10 eventually end up?

11 A. Having been brought to Sid, they brought us out of the personnel

12 carrier and took us into a military vehicle made of metal with metal

13 seats, seats inside. And it was night-time. We were taken to Belgrade.

14 In Belgrade they took us to the barracks at Dedina. We stayed

15 there but they didn't just leave us there. Rather, the next morning they

16 drove us back to Sremska Mitrovica, the camp in Sremska Mitrovica, at

17 about 4.00 on the 21st of November, 1991.

18 Q. And very briefly, can you just tell us what happened there,

19 please.

20 A. Yes. At Negoslavci Anto Aric was added to the group comprising

21 Dr. Bosanac and myself. The three of us went via Sid, Belgrade,

22 Sremska Mitrovica, and eventually in Sremska Mitrovica as we left the

23 vehicle, they physically abused us and forced us to walk with our heads

24 bowed, hands behind our backs.

25 After we entered a building, Aric and I had our clothes taken

Page 1558

1 away. We were stripped naked. They searched us thoroughly. We remained

2 there for perhaps half an hour naked out in the cold, after which we were

3 allowed to put our clothes back on. They had taken away all of our

4 belongings, everything that there was in our pockets, and they took us to

5 a prison camp, room number 6 on the second floor.

6 Q. And what happened at the prison camp? How long were you there

7 for?

8 A. I was there for about 17 or 18 days. Every day, or quite often

9 they would take us for interrogations at all times of the day or night.

10 Threats were being made along the way, needless to say. And once we

11 reached the interrogation room I, for one, was questioned by Colonel

12 Stanko. I can't say that he beat me or verbally abused me excessively.

13 However, once he had handed me over to the guards to take me back,

14 physical problems started occurring on my body.

15 After the three of us entered the building where the camp prison

16 was, the three of us, Dr. Bosanac, Ante Aric, and myself, Ante Aric was

17 taken to one side immediately and right there in plain sight - I can't

18 find the right word or a better expression - they thrashed him like a

19 beast. Being a doctor, I wondered if it was possible to beat someone

20 black and blue like that and for that person to still survive. And this

21 happened right there in front of us, I suppose, as a sort of welcome.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE PARKER: That, Mr. Moore, is the time when we must adjourn,

24 because the court is now required for another Chamber.

25 Doctor, I'm sorry but we must ask you to return on Monday, when

Page 1559

1 the evidence will continue. We will be sitting next week in the

2 afternoon, starting at 2.15.

3 We will adjourn until Monday.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of

6 November, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.