Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1644

1 Tuesday, 15 November 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: I apologise that the Chamber is a little late. I

7 was caught up in a conference with other Judges and not able to get free

8 in time to be here when I should have been.

9 May I remind you, Doctor, of the affirmation you made at the

10 beginning of your evidence, which still applies.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Borovic: [Continued]

16 Q. The question for the witness: Would you please be so kind and

17 determine for us the exact time when the Europe international observers

18 arrived in front of the hospital on the 18th of November.

19 A. The representative of the International Red Cross whom I saw,

20 Mr. Borsinger, was talking to Major Sljivancanin. I believe this happened

21 between 1.00 and 2.00.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. In the afternoon, of course.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 The next question: Did they arrive together with those two

Page 1645

1 military APCs that you described yesterday?

2 A. I can't be sure. I don't remember. After the captain came out,

3 Dr. Bosanac, Marin Vidic, and myself were confused because Dr. Bosanac

4 said she had received information from Zagreb that Major Sljivancanin

5 would surrender the hospital or hand the hospital over to the

6 International Red Cross.

7 Q. If I may interrupt you for a second, please. You're not really

8 answering my question, are you? The fact that you were confused at the

9 time does not mean you can't answer my question now. Do you agree with

10 that?

11 A. I don't understand the question. Can you please repeat that for

12 me?

13 Q. Of course, I will.

14 These monitors, did they arrive together with those two APCs?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. Thank you. You might as well have said so right away.

17 Did you personally know Mr. Borsinger?

18 A. No. I did not personally know Mr. Borsinger.

19 Q. But I think that in your testimony, when answering questions by

20 the Prosecutor, you did, in fact, say that you knew him?

21 A. I mentioned his name. The reason being that when negotiations

22 were held in Zagreb between the International Red Cross, the European

23 Commission Monitoring Mission, and the representatives of the Croatian

24 government, it was agreed that Mr. Borsinger would be present on behalf of

25 the International Red Cross.

Page 1646

1 Q. Does that mean you didn't know him?

2 A. No, I didn't know him personally.

3 Q. Thank you. If you don't remember whether he arrived with those

4 two APCs, can you please describe how he arrived, if in fact you saw him

5 arrive at all.

6 A. I was about to say that but you interrupted me. I spoke to

7 Dr. Bosanac, and we were both surprised that those people were supposed to

8 arrive were not arriving. At that very moment, in front of us at the

9 entrance to the hospital, there were Mr. Sljivancanin and Mr. Nikola

10 Borsinger, but I don't remember how they arrived, by what means.

11 Q. Do you remember how Borsinger and his men left?

12 A. No. After the conversation that I talked about in chief, we went

13 into the hospital. Mr. Borsinger did not enter the hospital with us, and

14 I have no idea how he went back.

15 Q. As you described yesterday, you went straight down to the

16 basement?

17 A. That's true.

18 Q. Was there any electricity in the basement?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When did electricity arrive, if at all, in the basement while you

21 were at the hospital?

22 A. We were at the hospital until the 20th, then we were taken away

23 and captured. The electricity had not arrived.

24 Q. Thank you. Can you then offer a logical explanation, for your own

25 sake in fact and for the sake of the Court. How come that people that you

Page 1647

1 had christened as Chetniks and the nature -- and the captain who was with

2 Kuzmic were able to select prisoners in the darkness of that basement, and

3 you claim there were over 500 people there? How long did it take them to

4 observe their faces and to assess who were the wounded down there in the

5 dark?

6 A. There were batteries and lamps, electrical torches in the hospital

7 which they used. Candles were lit, too. You could pass through the

8 corridor. You could look at people's faces, and you could tell the

9 wounded from the rest.

10 Q. Thank you, that's sufficient.

11 The soldiers you described as arriving with Captain Radic, can you

12 describe what sort of uniform they were wearing? Were those olive-drab or

13 camouflage uniforms?

14 A. As I said yesterday, the captain and the soldier accompanying him,

15 he was wearing an olive-drab uniform.

16 Q. I was asking about the soldiers securing the hospital.

17 A. I'm about to say that. The captain was wearing a camouflage

18 uniform, but the soldiers who arrived first were also in camouflage

19 uniform. And as I said, they were the first to seize control of the ten

20 entrances to the hospital.

21 Q. Did they have any additional insignia, such as feathers, something

22 like that?

23 A. I didn't see any such details. I don't remember seeing any such

24 details.

25 Q. What sort of caps were they wearing?

Page 1648

1 A. I didn't look closely enough to see. I didn't look at their caps

2 closely enough to be able to tell you that.

3 Q. Those soldiers, did they go around the hospital searching for

4 something, because you did say that you saw them moving about the

5 hospital?

6 A. As I said, it was dark and I couldn't see whether they were

7 searching for something around the hospital, but I did see them take

8 control of the entrances. You could still see that because there was

9 still sufficient daylight for you to see.

10 Q. After the Borsinger's and Sljivancanin's conversation what became

11 of Borsinger?

12 A. I've answered that question. We went to the basement. I have no

13 idea what he did after that.

14 Q. You testified that Captain Radic returned on the 19th of November

15 between 8.00 and 9.00 in the morning?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. That's what you said. You also said that he arrested you?

18 A. That's true.

19 Q. That he gave you some orders that you had to abide by?

20 A. Yes, to stay close and to remain in that room that I pointed out

21 to the Chamber.

22 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that on the 18th of November, you were

23 in fact not rested at all?

24 A. The 18th?

25 Q. November.

Page 1649

1 A. I think you could say that, yes.

2 Q. Thank you. You were a physician and you were free. Were you in a

3 position to get in touch with Dr. Vesna Bosanac?

4 A. I think she had left to attend talks with Lieutenant Colonel, if

5 memory serves, Mr. Mrksic.

6 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that Vesna Bosanac was attending talks

7 with Mrksic on the 18th, on the afternoon of the 18th?

8 A. I may have mixed up the dates, but that's how I remember it to

9 have been.

10 Q. Maybe you -- you had the days mixed up. But my question is:

11 Since Vesna Bosanac was not in the hospital, were you deputising for her?

12 A. There was no need for anyone to stand in for her. As I said, when

13 the soldiers arrived and took control of the hospital, we had been

14 divested of any power that we had over the hospital.

15 Q. But that wasn't my question. What I said was: Before the army

16 arrived, were you her deputy?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So who was?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. How come you don't know?

21 A. She was there throughout and there was no need at any point in

22 time for anyone to deputise. There would have been no need under those

23 conditions; that was the last thing that we were thinking about at the

24 time. I'm not sure if she had one, and if indeed she did, that certainly

25 wasn't me.

Page 1650

1 Q. Do you know at what time gaseous gangrene occurred?

2 A. I think gaseous gangrene occurred in the second half of October

3 when we started running out of medicines, medical supplies, and the

4 corridors were filling up with the wounded.

5 Q. Do you know who operated on the soldier Boban Gacic?

6 A. I can't remember specifically who operated on whom, individually,

7 in relation to each of the wounded or their names.

8 Q. Have you ever heard of that soldier, Boban Gacic?

9 A. Yes. I'm not sure who asked me, but I'm -- I'm familiar with the

10 name. The family name rings a bell. However, I would be going too far if

11 I said for certain. I'm not sure.

12 Q. May I remind you, then, that there is a statement to the effect

13 that he succumbed to gaseous gangrene after a leg surgery?

14 A. Yes. That refreshes my memory. Unfortunately happened to be one

15 of those five wounded soldiers in those difficult conditions. It was

16 impossible to obtain medicine for gangrene. You couldn't bring anything

17 into the hospital or take anything out of the hospital on account of the

18 occupation by the JNA and paramilitary units. So we had no medicine to

19 work with. Unfortunately, the result was that people died of gangrene,

20 even those whose lives might otherwise have been saved.

21 Q. How, then, did you succeed in sending to the atomic shelter of

22 Borovo Komerc wounded members of the National Guards Corps?

23 A. Borovo Komerc, the warehouse, is not outside Vukovar. The

24 antigangrene serum is something you couldn't find in Vukovar. It wasn't

25 available and the hospital didn't have it. You had to leave Vukovar in

Page 1651

1 order to get some.

2 Q. I was referring a while ago when I dropped that name to JNA

3 soldiers. Is that correct?

4 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your question.

5 Q. The soldier that I asked you about, was he a JNA soldier?

6 A. Well, if you say so. You probably have all the information needed

7 to draw that conclusion, but personally I couldn't confirm.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, I think the interpreter will be

9 exhausted in a moment if we keep up the present pace. Could you just try

10 to pause in between question and answer?

11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I've already made a pause while

12 listening to your words, Your Honour. Thank you.

13 Q. Did you leave the hospital at all over those three months?

14 A. Over those three months, I seldom left the hospital. If I did, I

15 only left to go to the basement where my family were, to the best of my

16 recollection.

17 Q. Thank you. How long did your family stay in that basement?

18 A. My family was in the basement of the building in which I owned a

19 flat, and they were there together with the other residents facing

20 dreadful conditions. I believe they all arrived in the hospital on the

21 afternoon of the 17th, which, if memory serves me, was a Sunday. I'm

22 referring to the 17th of November.

23 Q. You mean the 17th of November?

24 A. Well, I'm speaking Croatian and we use two different words, so

25 please show some respect for that.

Page 1652

1 Q. Thank you very much. Are you talking about your wife?

2 A. And my mother-in-law. As well as the other neighbours, the

3 Uzelacs, the Milosevics, the Koningsknechts. It's the part of the

4 building that we shared.

5 Q. Thank you, thank you.

6 Did you ever leave the hospital again for any other reason?

7 A. Not that I remember.

8 Q. Did you ever go to the MUP building, the police building?

9 A. I went perhaps once or twice. There were wounded there, but the

10 hospital building is in the vicinity of the police building so there was

11 no distance between the two buildings, and I went there to dress the

12 wounded, to dress their wounds.

13 Q. I think that now you have given a very logical answer, so I would

14 like you to describe to the Trial Chamber what you mean when you say that

15 the MUP was adjoining the hospital building.

16 A. The hospital was completely destroyed because of the shelling and

17 the anti -- actually the nuclear shelter, which was the old corridor in

18 the old hospital, was used in order to cover the distance and to find

19 oneself in the MUP premises.

20 Q. Thank you. Does that mean, if I understood you correctly, that it

21 was not necessary to cover a cleared area or a clearing of 200 metres in

22 order to reach the shelter?

23 A. No. No. You could not use the underground corridors throughout

24 that whole time. You had to come out.

25 Q. Well, at the time that you are describing, was it possible at that

Page 1653

1 time to walk three metres and to enter the MUP, just like you said before?

2 A. I didn't say three metres. And also, you had to pass through an

3 open area for some of the time between the old hospital building and the

4 MUP. You really had to walk through an open area.

5 Q. Thank you. But I am looking at the transcript, and you said three

6 metres.

7 A. At least three metres.

8 Q. At least.

9 A. Well, it was probably -- the distance was probably even greater.

10 Q. Well, maybe it was four?

11 A. No, not four. Maybe it was ten. I didn't measure it. I'm not a

12 land surveyor, so I'm not really all that specialised in the different

13 distances.

14 Q. Were you a witness on the 18th of November when the JNA soldiers

15 were relieved by, as you said, paramilitary forces? Did you see that for

16 yourself?

17 A. I didn't see it for myself because they came in, so this is what

18 we saw when we were inside. I didn't see that outside because I didn't go

19 out, but from inside you could see through apertures that the camouflaged

20 dressed uniforms were -- camouflage uniformed dress soldiers were leaving

21 and that the reserve forces were coming in.

22 Q. And how many reserve forces did you see come in?

23 A. Well, it was dark so I really couldn't see.

24 Q. How could you see that they were reservists in the dark?

25 A. Well, I could tell the difference between camouflage uniforms and

Page 1654

1 other uniforms; that much you could see from inside. And secondly, they

2 were coming into the hospital.

3 Q. Thank you. And where were you precisely when Captain Kuzmic was

4 touring the hospital? Where were you exactly?

5 A. When Kuzmic and the captain were touring the hospital, I was in

6 front of the office or, better put, that small room when Kuzmic and the

7 captain came in, Captain Radic.

8 Q. Thank you. What small room do you mean?

9 A. The one that I was detained in the day after. I showed that on

10 the diagram that we were looking at.

11 Q. Thank you. Was that the room used by the Crisis Staff of the

12 hospital before that?

13 A. No. I don't think that the hospital had a Crisis Staff there.

14 Q. Where was the Crisis Staff?

15 A. The Crisis Staff was across the road in a different building, in

16 an old building.

17 Q. Thank you, thank you. Well, so that I wouldn't interrupt you all

18 the time, could you please answer a little more briefly and we will easily

19 then come to the truth, your truth which you would like to tell the Court.

20 So where was this Crisis Staff?

21 A. In the beginning, the Crisis Staff -- well, the hospital had its

22 administrative section and the medical part. The Crisis Staff met in the

23 old part of the building where the administrative offices were, and that

24 is across the street from the old part of the hospital. The two buildings

25 are some four or five metres apart.

Page 1655

1 Q. Did you attend those meetings?

2 A. No. I was not a member of the Crisis Staff.

3 Q. So how do you know that they met there if you were not a member?

4 A. Well, how could I not know? When after the meetings of the Crisis

5 Staff, Dr. Bosanac and Dr. Matos who were members of the Crisis Staff

6 would say that there had been a meeting, because according to the decision

7 of the director or administrator, Dr. Matos became a member of the

8 hospital Crisis Staff.

9 Q. And what did Dr. Bosanac tell you? Did she go to any other

10 meetings of the Crisis Staff in town?

11 A. No. I don't remember that. It's possible but as I say, I don't

12 remember.

13 Q. Now let us go back briefly to the 18th of November, when these

14 reservists came in, according to what you said. If I were to tell you

15 that Dr. Vesna Bosanac, in her testimony before this Tribunal, stated that

16 nothing was happening in the hospital on the 18th of November. If I were

17 to tell you that the head nurse -- I'm not going to give you her first and

18 last name, but she was the head nurse of the surgical ward, said that

19 there were no incidents at all, although the doctor who worked at the ear,

20 throat, and nose ward, who testified here, said that the people behaved

21 properly, that they gave cigarettes. Would you agree with me when I tell

22 you what they said, that this image that they drew for the Court is very

23 different from the one that you are describing to the Court, primarily in

24 describing this behaviour of this Bogdan Kuzmic?

25 A. I don't know what Dr. Vesna Bosanac stated as well as Binazija

Page 1656

1 Kolesar, even though you didn't mention her, and as you -- but you did say

2 it was the head nurse of the surgical department. I don't know what it is

3 that they saw.

4 Q. So it's not true what they saw?

5 A. I'm telling you what I saw and what I saw in the places where I

6 was. As I said earlier, if you remember, I think that Dr. Vesna Bosanac

7 on the 18th or after that went to Negoslavci.

8 Q. Thank you very much. I don't want to go through the entire

9 statement now, but she explained her presence on the 18th of November.

10 But since you do not wish to change your position, then later we will

11 assess whether these three witnesses are speaking the truth or whether you

12 are talking -- speaking the truth about the same set of circumstances.

13 You also stated that the objective of the captain and Kuzmic was

14 to pick out the civilians and the wounded who were later to be killed at

15 Ovcara. How could you at that point in time have that impression about

16 their conduct?

17 A. On the 18th, in the evening, when I was doing my patient rounds,

18 they said that Mr. Radic, Captain Radic, and Bogdan Kuzmic had been there

19 earlier and they told me what I have already said before - I don't want to

20 repeat that - that they had mistreated them and so on. The wounded were

21 afraid about what was going to happen as a result of this abuse and these

22 threats. They were afraid of what was going to happen the next day or the

23 day after. That was certainly the cause on the basis of which it could be

24 concluded that at the time they were actually picking out people that they

25 were going to propose for the transport, which ended up, unfortunately, in

Page 1657

1 the way that we know it ended. It ended at Ovcara.

2 Q. Thank you. So are you concluding now that that evening you didn't

3 know about those reasons on the 18th?

4 A. I am saying that they were abused on the 18th and what the

5 atmosphere was like and --

6 Q. We heard that. We heard that.

7 A. Well, if you allow me, I would like to complete my thought. There

8 was panic, there was fear, a very heavy atmosphere. People had lost any

9 hope of surviving, especially some of the people there who were specially

10 abused because Bogdan Kuzmic earlier worked.

11 Q. I'm sorry. Well, I cannot allow you to speak for an hour.

12 MR. MOORE: With the utmost respect, I understand the difficulties

13 of cross-examination but neverthe -- and also the witness answering the

14 question, but the witness must be allowed to answer the question. He's

15 been interrupted now three or four times.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, the witness is still answering the

17 question as he understands the matter. It may not be the sort of answer

18 you want, but he should be allowed to give it.

19 Sorry we have interrupted you, Doctor. Had you finished what you

20 were saying?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for

22 protecting me. I will try to be as concise as I can and to take as little

23 time as possible to explain and also to respond to the Defence counsel's

24 questions.

25 On the 18th, after Captain Radic and Bogdan Kuzmic went to see all

Page 1658

1 the seriously wounded people at the hospital, I also did my rounds with a

2 torch and a candle to avoid confusion that some people had electricity and

3 the others didn't, and there was panic amongst the wounded that they would

4 be killed, specially those who were particularly picked out by those two.

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Thank you. I asked a simple question several times now, and now

7 I'm also getting very detailed, long answers. It's very simple. Did he

8 know on the 18th that those people would be taken to Ovcara and executed?

9 That's the question: Did you know that or not?

10 A. Sir, if you would like me to give you the answers that you would

11 want me to give you, then that will not be the truth. I'm speaking only

12 the truth, and I will continue to do so regardless of whether that suits

13 either side in this proceeding. On the 18th, in the evening, I described

14 the atmosphere for you amongst the wounded in the hospital, and even

15 amongst the staff, because on the 17th, a large number of people from the

16 basement came to the hospital. There was panic and fear because people

17 were worried about all the horrible things that they had heard. They were

18 afraid of what was coming.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not want to you

21 warn me but this is really excessive.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Doctor, could you focus on the question which was

23 put to you by Mr. Borovic? It was: Did you know on the 18th that these

24 people would be taken to Ovcara and executed? Now, could you give us your

25 answer to that question, please?

Page 1659

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That evening, after I did my rounds

2 and after the patients told me what they told me, I couldn't know what

3 would happen on the 20th and who would be taken to Ovcara.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Thank you.

6 Can you tell us exactly what time did Bogdan Kuzmic come?

7 A. It was sometime in the afternoon. I really don't remember exactly

8 what time it was, but it was already getting dark, which means that it was

9 probably shortly before nightfall. So on the 18th of November, and that's

10 going to be the same date in a few days, and then you could tell

11 approximately what time it was. At the time I didn't actually have a

12 watch.

13 Q. Can you tell us when Captain Radic came, at what time?

14 A. Captain Radic and Kuzmic came together.

15 Q. Together. Thank you.

16 Did the JNA return later? Did they come back again after the

17 reservists had come or not?

18 A. I think that the next day, on the 19th, the JNA returned, as I

19 said before, if I remember correctly, but I really cannot be certain.

20 Q. And what was the time approximately? Because in your statement,

21 you specified the exact timings regarding the 19th of November. So

22 perhaps you could repeat that for us. When did the JNA reappear again on

23 the 19th of November?

24 A. I'm talking about the point in time when Captain Radic came and he

25 addressed me.

Page 1660

1 Q. I'm sorry, I will have to interrupt you. I'm not asking you

2 that. Who relieved the reservists? Did the JNA soldiers come back on the

3 19th and did they relieve the reservists, yes or no?

4 A. I don't remember that. I only remember what was happening to me

5 and to the injured in the hospital.

6 Q. Thank you. So can we agree that you did not see that the JNA

7 returned to the hospital again?

8 A. Well, I cannot tell you certainly yes or no.

9 Q. Thank you. You said that when the reservists were there, some

10 people were taken away, including Marko Mandic.

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. What day was that and at what time?

13 A. It was on the 19th of November.

14 Q. At what time?

15 A. I don't know exactly because I was already detained. I was

16 already under guard in that room.

17 Q. So if you were already captured, how do you know that they were

18 taken away?

19 A. I know because in the evening, when I did the rounds, I was told

20 that Marko Mandic was not there or the ambulance driver, that they had

21 been taken away.

22 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that on the 19th, in the evening, was

23 the first time that you learned that Marko Mandic was not there?

24 A. On the 19th, in the evening, as I said, I learned, and I confirm

25 what you have just now said, that that was the time when I found out that

Page 1661

1 Marko Mandic was not there and the ambulance driver was not there either.

2 Q. Thank you. Do you know the name of any other ambulance driver who

3 was missing except that one?

4 A. Yes. Ilija Azasanin [phoen], Mihajlo Zera. There must have been

5 others, but these are the ones that I remember.

6 Q. I asked you yesterday about the first time the JNA appeared in the

7 hospital. Was there a major who arrived with the captain? And you said

8 you didn't remember and that no major came with the captain. What can you

9 tell us now?

10 A. I can tell you this. You told me that there was a captain who

11 came and a major who came, and you told me their last names. And I said

12 No, that wasn't the major who came.

13 Q. Was there a different one who came?

14 A. After Captain Radic came in, he was followed - and this is

15 something that I've already talked about - by Major Veselin Sljivancanin

16 and there was that discussion they had with Mr. Borsinger.

17 Q. Yes. Thank you. But that wasn't my question. Before Major

18 Sljivancanin appeared -- and you submit that Captain Radic had appeared

19 before him. So my question is: At the same time as Captain Radic, did

20 Major Sljivancanin also arrive in the hospital?

21 A. I don't remember having seen Major in the hospital at the time.

22 We are talking about the 18th. That's what we are talking about. The

23 18th of November, in the afternoon.

24 Q. I read your book very carefully, the book you published, which you

25 accepted as your own work, recognised as your own work. If I tell you

Page 1662

1 that on page 139 --

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

3 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] The last paragraph.

4 JUDGE PARKER: I understand the evidence --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine, fine.

6 JUDGE PARKER: I understand the evidence of the doctor to be that

7 only part of that book was his own work.

8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is correct. That

9 is precisely the part that I'm showing. He said yesterday: "I abide by my

10 sections." And the other sections of the book are accounts of people who

11 were arrested, and he said that he couldn't stand by that.

12 Q. Is that correct?

13 A. In order to make the book more easily, more readily, readable, the

14 editor simply removed some of the comments that were made, even my own. I

15 did make additional remarks to show that the original meaning had been

16 different.

17 Q. My question is - I'm speaking about the part of the book that you

18 authored and the events that you were involved in - did the editor change

19 any names, any dates, or any specific time-lines that you provided?

20 A. I think one should go through my entire statement and not take

21 individual sentences out of context. I think the editor, perhaps because

22 he found it convenient, even changed some dates, but these changes make no

23 difference to the essence of what was going on at the Vukovar Hospital in

24 those days.

25 Q. You said the editor changed some dates. What is the profession of

Page 1663

1 this editor who was in charge of your book?

2 A. The editor was a well-known Croatian writer.

3 Q. Based on what exactly did he change the dates, if your entries in

4 this book represent your diary?

5 A. No. It was not my diary. I'm not sure if you read my book from

6 cover to cover; if not, I can send you a copy. You have accounts day by

7 day - this was published in the press - what was happening in the Vukovar

8 area. It wasn't my own records because I never kept a diary.

9 Q. Thank you. I now fully understand the situation.

10 If I tell you that in a portion of your book that you authored

11 reads as follows: "Two APCs are firing their machine-guns and approaching

12 the hospital."

13 Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, to the extent that I remember.

15 Q. "They stopped and they trained their barrels on the hospital."

16 That's the next sentence; is that correct?

17 "The International Red Cross representative arrives and the tank

18 disgorges a captain and a major, who are shouting: 'Everyone go back to

19 the hospital. No one must leave the hospital.'"

20 You're very specific. You talk about their ranks, a captain and a

21 major shouting both at the same time and getting out of a tank. So is

22 that correct or what you told us in your testimony here? Which is true?

23 A. I must admit that what I'm saying now is more accurate. As I've

24 said, the editor took some words and sentences and I told him about the

25 events. I told him about what had happened, that the APCs drove up. And

Page 1664

1 I told him about what had happened, but he phrased these things his own

2 way in the book and the book is what it is.

3 Q. Thank you. But are you absolutely convinced that what you're

4 saying now is accurate? Here we have a writer who may be toying around

5 with facts for his own reasons, and here we are dealing with facts. So

6 could we say that this writer changed the facts altogether by inserting a

7 JNA major whom you had never mentioned at all?

8 A. No. I said that Captain Radic had arrived and that he was

9 followed by Major Sljivancanin, but I suppose the editor put it together

10 as he liked and this is the result.

11 Q. Thank you very much. That means the editor changed this bit. We

12 can move on now.

13 A. But that's not the only bit that he changed. There is other

14 things that we might discuss.

15 Q. Since you're adamant about this, what other notable changes did

16 the editor make that were substantially different from what you had

17 stated?

18 A. I don't have the book in front of me right now, nor am I able to

19 comment on any details. If I could have the book and go through it again,

20 then perhaps I could give you some feedback in terms of what I stated and

21 what I did not state. I don't see this book as an accurate historical

22 record. This is a personal account of something that happened, of people

23 who suffered, of the suffering of those of us who were working at the

24 Vukovar Hospital.

25 Q. This is a personal view, then; therefore, it's a witness account

Page 1665

1 by someone who was in the hospital. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That means that we have witnesses in a courtroom, too, or what is

4 being said. And the question is: Is your memory fresher and clearer now

5 or back in 1992, early 1992, when the book was first published?

6 A. Early 1992, the best part of those who had defended Vukovar were

7 still in prisons or in camps, which you know full well, and this was the

8 reason - and the editor did point this out at the time - that certain

9 things cannot be recorded with a greatest possible accuracy and that's why

10 he did what he did.

11 Q. Thank you. What about 13 years later? Did you not publish

12 another book on the same subject in which you added all these details that

13 you had not been aware of back in 1992?

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with the name of Simo Samardzic?

16 A. Yes. He worked at the hospital. I think he was a help worker but

17 I'm not sure what his duties entailed.

18 Q. During these events, was he at the hospital too?

19 A. He showed up at the hospital, did what he was supposed to do, and

20 then suddenly he disappeared. I have no idea where he had gone to.

21 Q. In your testimony on 1524 of the transcript dated the 11th of

22 November, lines 4 to 8 - and this is something that you confirmed on a

23 number of different occasions - you said: "On that evening, on the

24 evening of the 18th of November, Bogdan Kuzmic and the captain inspected

25 the hospital as well as the basement in which the wounded were."

Page 1666

1 However, in this book - and I'm talking about a section of the

2 book that you acknowledge as your own - you were asked on page 141,

3 paragraph 2, whether you knew Simo Samardzic and you said - please confirm

4 or deny - "Several hours after the army entered the hospital at about 1300

5 hours, suddenly the soldiers disappeared from all of the hospital's

6 entrances, and the local imported Chetniks started coming in. I

7 recognised some of those who had worked in the hospital. Bogdan Kuzmic,

8 Simo Samardzic, they were going from bed to bed looking at the wounded.

9 Very soon I found out why," and so on and so forth.

10 And then you continue all the way up until the 19th. Not one

11 single time in this book of yours -- or rather, can you comment on what

12 I've just read to you?

13 A. No. That is a very liberal interpretation of the editor himself,

14 who shaped my account into a text.

15 Q. But can you offer a logical explanation why you didn't say Bogdan

16 Kuzmic, a JNA captain, went from one wounded to another and I knew why?

17 But, rather, what we read here is that Kuzmic and Simo Samardzic did this

18 and not Kuzmic and Captain Radic.

19 A. I think the reason the captain was not mentioned must be the fact

20 that no person, no high-ranking soldier was mentioned during the rounds of

21 the hospital on that day, with the exception of Bogdan Kuzmic and Simo

22 Samardzic.

23 Q. I would be hard put to say I see a logical reason why in fact you

24 didn't mention Captain Radic in the same context that you testified about

25 here, but if you claim that this is another change that was made by the

Page 1667

1 editor, let's move on.

2 A. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying he changed that,

3 but I believe it was later on the 20th that Captain Radic takes it from

4 there. But we can talk about that later.

5 Q. Are you trying to say that it wasn't Captain Radic who did this on

6 the 18th but rather the 20th. What exactly is it you are trying to say?

7 MR. MOORE: I object to this. I have no problems at all about

8 cross-examining on a document, none at all, it's perfectly reasonable.

9 But if in actual fact it's going to be done, my understanding from the

10 Pre-Trial Conference was that if there was going to be reference to

11 documentation, and in actual fact the documentation would be provided so

12 that everybody knew exactly what was being referred to and we know what

13 the point is. It's unfair if in actual fact the witness is merely cited

14 in general terms parts of a book and never has sight of the part that's

15 being referred to. And that was certainly my understanding of what was

16 going to happen in cross-examination, both Prosecution and Defence.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, it is the normal position that if

18 you're cross-examining on a document and putting to the witness that his

19 evidence differs from something said in that document at some earlier time

20 by the witness, that you would allow the witness an opportunity to look at

21 the document.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Before I

23 continue, perhaps one of the Court officials could accept this literary

24 brain child, as it were, of Dr. Njavro, which I hope he will never

25 disavow.

Page 1668

1 JUDGE PARKER: Now, the particular page, is it page 41,

2 Mr. Borovic? Perhaps the doctor might --

3 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Specifically the page was 141.

4 JUDGE PARKER: 141. Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm now being shown

6 this book. This book is not a document, rather, as I said, it was my

7 personal view of what had happened at the hospital. I need to be given an

8 opportunity to go through these things carefully, and therefore I would

9 like to apply for a half-hour break in order to be able to do that.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, excuse me for

11 interrupting, but I think this would be highly inappropriate at this point

12 in time, in the middle of my cross-examination, to grant such a break as

13 the witness has just requested.

14 JUDGE PARKER: You're quite right, Mr. Borovic.

15 Doctor, if you would look at page 141, and refresh your

16 recollection of that page, it's the second paragraph on page 141, I

17 believe. If you just read that, and then you may be better able to answer

18 Mr. Borovic as to whether that is in fact part of your writing or someone

19 else's and whether -- if the account there is different from what you have

20 said in evidence, why it is different.

21 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Second paragraph, please. It's right there and the first word is

23 "immediately" --

24 A. Your Honours, the section that was highlighted in yellow here:

25 "Several hours after the soldiers entered the hospital at 1300 hours,

Page 1669

1 suddenly," and so on and so forth. And then it goes on to speak about

2 Bogdan Kuzmic, Simo Samardzic, and others, and there is no mention of

3 Captain Radic. I did mention him --

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

5 Q. But if you look at this paragraph that you have in front of you,

6 is there any reference to Captain Radic at all or not?

7 A. No. Not in this paragraph. There is no reference to Captain

8 Radic, but there will be references to Captain Radic later on.

9 Q. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it. This paragraph you're

10 looking at, is there any reference to the reservists Bogdan Kuzmic and

11 Simo Samardzic inspecting the wounded and you concluding what the reason

12 was for them doing that? Because that's what your book goes on to state.

13 Do you stick to that?

14 A. Yes. I stand by that statement, Bogdan Kuzmic was touring. I'm

15 not sure about Simo Samardzic. That may have been added, but I'm certain

16 about Bogdan Kuzmic but there was someone else with him too.

17 Q. Thank you very much. My next question.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore would like to see that.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please, my next

20 question is about the book, so in order to avoid going back and forth.

21 Perhaps a little later, Mr. Prosecutor. You should have prepared for this

22 case, you know -- just a joke, obviously.

23 JUDGE PARKER: That's going too far, Mr. Borovic.

24 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. On the 19th of November, that is your statement, Mr. Njavro,

Page 1670

1 between 8.00 and 9.00, Captain Radic arrived and said, "From now on

2 consider yourself arrested. You are not to leave this room." This is in

3 the transcript and my learned friend the Prosecutor can check that. The

4 11th of November 2005, the page is 1523 and lines are 5 to 11.

5 On the other hand, make sure you're following, you made a

6 statement to the Prosecutor in 1995. The Prosecutor asked you in chief

7 and you confirmed that you had indeed given this statement in 1995. In

8 that statement you stated that the captain had told you: You are to stay

9 here and you must not go anywhere. Nothing will happen to you. It is for

10 your own safety that you are to remain here.

11 As you see, first it says that he was arrested, but then the

12 statement he gave to the OTP was that he had in fact been told that it was

13 for his own safety that he was to remain in the room. Finally, please

14 find page 141. I think that is the most important page, at least as

15 regards this topic. It reads -- rather, would you be so kind as to read

16 the bit that says "Major Sljivancanin" and on from there, the same

17 paragraph where Kuzmic and Samardzic are mentioned.

18 So it starts, "Major Sljivancanin then spoke to me."

19 A. "Major Sljivancanin then spoke to me. 'Doctor, I have a special

20 conversation to have with you. You shall not to go anywhere and you will

21 be escorted at all times. You are free to go on working at the hospital,

22 but you are not to leave the building under any conditions.'"

23 Q. Thank you, Doctor. My question is: Which of these two

24 submissions is true? What do you think? What you testified here before

25 this Court that you were arrested by Radic or the statement you gave to

Page 1671

1 the OTP about a soldier who was looking after your safety in order to

2 protect you from problems that you might otherwise have had? Or a third

3 possibility where you mention to a third person who is telling you all

4 these things? So which is true?

5 A. The first version is true. What I stated before this Honourable

6 Tribunal, what Captain Radic told me on the 19th, that is true. Major

7 Radic, too, said something like this but that was on the 20th, so the

8 dates are wrong.

9 Q. There is no date that you mention in that context the way you said

10 it.

11 A. Yes, it is, but it's a little bit higher up.

12 Q. But you said Major Radic. Did you make a mistake?

13 A. Major Sljivancanin.

14 Q. Well, we'll leave it up to the Court to assess which one of your

15 statements is true or correct.

16 You also said that that morning, on the 19th of November, you

17 complained to the captain, who had introduced himself as Captain Radic,

18 that during the night the sick and the wounded were mistreated. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do we understand each other and can you explain to the Court in a

22 logical manner why you complained to Captain Radic on the 19th in the

23 morning if you're stating before the Tribunal that on the 18th of November

24 in the evening it was precisely that same captain, according to what you

25 said, who had abused the patients? So why were you complaining to him?

Page 1672

1 Can you explain that?

2 A. Yes, I can. There was no other officer present in the hospital at

3 the time, and why wouldn't I address him, referring amongst other things

4 also to some military and Geneva Conventions which even though they were

5 not respected, at least we were trying to refer to them.

6 Q. Thank you. My next question: On the 19th, in the morning, you

7 said that Kuzmic came to the hospital. You also stated - and we discussed

8 this briefly a little bit earlier - that Marko Mandic disappeared from the

9 hospital as well as some other drivers. In your statement to the OTP, on

10 page 3, paragraph 8 - and I think the Prosecutor also referred you to

11 that - you stated the following: "On the 18th of November the army

12 arrived at the hospital and then after 5.00 the Chetniks did. They abused

13 the wounded and the injured. I know that Bogdan Kuzmic took away a small

14 group, and Marko Mandic was part of that group."

15 So this was on the 17th, but earlier I read that you said that

16 this was on the 19th, in the morning. Also, if he says that the hospital

17 director, Vesna Bosanac -- and in the transcript of your statement and

18 also for the OTP it was stated that on the 18th of the 11th -- the 18th of

19 November, and I have the statement in front of you, maybe we can read

20 that - this was also presented as an exhibit earlier.

21 If I were to tell you that Vesna Bosanac stated the following:

22 "Marko Mandic on the 18th of November in the evening, Marko Mandic and

23 his wife, who was a nurse, together with a nurse and her husband, who was

24 a police officer, left the medical centre Vukovar without my knowledge.

25 However, Marko Mandic and his wife later returned."

Page 1673

1 What is correct out of these three statements? Your statement,

2 your earlier statement to the Prosecution, or the assertion by Vesna

3 Bosanac regarding Marko Mandic? First of all, is Vesna Bosanac not

4 stating the truth?

5 MR. MOORE: I object. This, I'm sure, is an unintentional error,

6 but on my transcript I have got the reference to the OTP statement,

7 referring to the 17th of November; I think that certainly is

8 on the transcript. If I may just read -- there is reference to the -- "So

9 this was on the 17th, but earlier I read that you said that this was on

10 the 19th."

11 Well, I'm sure it's unintentional, but that is not said in the

12 statement that this occurred on the 17th at all. So I don't know how my

13 learned friend can put a proposition to the witness that refers to the

14 17th when it says in -- as clear as one can anticipate it relates actually

15 not to that date. It refers to the 18th and then moves on to about 5 p.m.

16 and moves over to Marko Mandic being removed on the -- that's on page 4 of

17 7.

18 Now, I know cross-examination can be difficult but this is an

19 error, as far as I can see, and I can't see why it's occurring. And the

20 witness is being given a false premise upon which to answer.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, can I indicate that this problem is

22 considerably aggravated because of the enormous length of what you put to

23 the witness. It goes on for, at a rough guess, something like 20 lines;

24 there seemed to be several different propositions in it. Can I suggest

25 that you would get a lot further if you put each separate proposition to

Page 1674

1 the witness one at a time and dealt with that, and then moved to the

2 next one. And in that way, the witness will understand you more readily

3 and will be able to respond to you more readily. And if it is that

4 Mr. Moore is concerned about something you put, he can deal with it at

5 that time rather than having to look back through this very long set of

6 propositions. Thank you.

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Well, I think that there

8 is a mistake in the transcript, but I will present these three things very

9 carefully to the witness, as I did earlier. The first thing is:

10 Q. Did you as a witness state here before this Tribunal that on the

11 19th of November in the morning Bogdan Kuzmic came to the hospital, and

12 after that Marko Mandic disappeared from the hospital just like his

13 drivers, yes or no?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Second question: In your statement to the OTP, on page 3,

16 paragraph 8, it states on the 18th of November, when you stated that

17 Kuzmic came, after 5 p.m., to the hospital, is this indisputable?

18 A. Yes. We already spoke about that before.

19 Q. You said, "I know that Kuzmic took away a small group and Marko

20 Mandic was in that group."

21 That is the context of the statement you provided to the OTP; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Well, it was like this -- I don't have it in front of you [as

24 interpreted].

25 Q. Well, I'm asking you if that is correct, that statement.

Page 1675

1 A. How can I reply to that when I don't have the text in front of

2 me?

3 MR. MOORE: With the utmost respect, if this is going to be done

4 in the way that my learned friend suggests, he must allow it to be done

5 accurately so the witness can deal with the issue, and it's not being done

6 accurately. I understand Your Honour's point about re-examination, but it

7 is not being done properly or accurately at this stage. And in my

8 submission, that is unfair.

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

10 assist.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, we certainly need assistance because

12 things are not running smoothly and effectively at the moment from

13 anybody's point of view.

14 If you want the witness to comment on the accuracy of something

15 said in a previous statement, you need to let him see that statement. It

16 will be very rarely that a person can remember what is in a statement made

17 some time in the past about a particular topic without seeing it. In

18 fairness to the witness, he should be allowed to see it. So you need, if

19 you're putting a previous statement to him, to show him the passage in the

20 statement, and then get his reactions.

21 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I presented everything

22 to the witness properly. Just one moment. I would -- I'll start from the

23 back. Can we present the witness with the statement of Dr. Vesna Bosanac?

24 Q. Would the witness be kind enough to read the entry of the 18th of

25 November.

Page 1676

1 A. "On the 18th in the evening, Marko Mandic and his wife, who was a

2 nurse in the medical centre" --

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have the original text.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "-- with another nurse, and her

5 husband, a police officer, left the medical centre Vukovar without my

6 knowledge. I earlier instructed the medical staff not to leave the

7 hospital because it could be dangerous for them outside. However, Marko

8 Mandic and his wife later returned."

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Thank you. Well, let's make things brief and avoid presenting the

11 witness with large chunks of text. In regard to what you said about Marko

12 Mandic disappearing on the 19th, let's for the moment leave aside the

13 statement that you gave to the OTP. Vesna Bosanac states that Marko

14 Mandic left the hospital on the 18th, in the evening. You are telling the

15 Court that on the 19th, in the morning, Marko Mandic disappeared and then

16 you describe that. Is the statement by Vesna Bosanac incorrect or are you

17 going to correct the statement that you provided here?

18 A. Well, the statement of Dr. Vesna Bosanac confirms my statement

19 because Marko Mandic and his wife later returned to the hospital, which

20 means that on the 19th they were at the hospital.

21 Q. Where does it state that they were in the hospital on the 19th?

22 A. Well, there is a Latin saying, I don't want to repeat it here, but

23 if it's said that they returned without her knowledge and without her

24 permission -- however Marko Mandic and his wife, I stress - I'm sorry, I'm

25 being a little bit loud - returned later.

Page 1677

1 Q. Thank you. If that is your answer, then thank you.

2 A. And they spent the night at the hospital.

3 Q. What was the date that they spent at the hospital, of the night?

4 A. It was the night of the 19th, the night of the between the 18th

5 and the 19th.

6 Q. Did you see him?

7 A. I saw Marko on the 18th but not on the 19th.

8 Q. What time did you see him?

9 A. On the 18th in the evening I saw him. I don't know what time it

10 was any more. I really cannot tell you with any certainty. It was dark,

11 and I wasn't able to tell the time. I didn't have a watch, so it would be

12 too much to ask me about exact -- the exact time. But I know that in the

13 morning, after I was captured, those who were passing by said that Marko

14 Mandic had been taken away, as well as a group of drivers.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 My next question is as follows: But I'm not going to quote back

17 to you your statement given to the OTP because there it doesn't say the

18 19th, it says the 18th.

19 A. Well, you have a clarification here by Dr. Vesna Bosanac, which I

20 agree with, that he went on his own and then he later returned.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. That is your answer. Let's move on.

22 Now I would like you to look at your book again. This is the most

23 important part of the book that I would like to draw the Court's attention

24 to, which will show that this witness did not speak the truth regarding

25 these circumstances. The circumstances I'm thinking of refer to Captain

Page 1678

1 Radic and the events on the 18th and the 19th, as well as the relationship

2 between Dr. Njavro and Captain Radic. I'm looking at page 142.

3 Would you kindly read line 7 from the top?

4 A. "I was approached" -- is that what you mean?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. "I was approached by the counter-intelligence service captain and

7 he took me to the staff."

8 Q. Continue.

9 A. "He was asking about certain dictionaries. He was interested in

10 my -- certain doctors" --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "-- and asked me about them. These

13 were all doctors that used to work at the medical centre, at the surgical

14 ward, who had left previously or had simply disappeared."

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Thank you. Could you please read five lines further.

17 A. "He was particularly interested in a younger colleague,

18 Dr. Radomir Dejanovic, general practitioner. He was asking about him."

19 Well, this is important I would like to complete the picture.

20 Q. Well, you already told the Court about this yesterday; there is no

21 need to go into it again. Is that the same Radomir Dejanovic whom you

22 mentioned yesterday before the -- during the hearing?

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, that's an appropriate question. I

24 will listen to your questions about this passage now. Please carry on.

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 1679

1 Q. Dr. Radomir Dejanovic, whom you mentioned in your book, is that

2 the same doctor whom you mentioned yesterday during your testimony?

3 A. Yes, it's the same doctor.

4 Q. Did you say yesterday that Captain Radic showed interest in

5 Dr. Radomir Dejanovic because they studied together?

6 A. As far as I can remember, Captain Radic asked me about

7 Radomir Dejanovic, what I thought of him. And then, I don't know, he made

8 a comment about their relations because allegedly they studied at the same

9 time at the military academy and the medical school.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 A. Well, I cannot really tell you exactly because I don't remember

12 the exact conversation other than that question about Radovan [as

13 interpreted].

14 Q. Thank you. Later in this text, some ten lines further, you say

15 that the captain knew the doctor personally because they were friends from

16 school.

17 A. Well, I've just explained that.

18 Q. So my question is now that you have read this and since you stated

19 yesterday and today that Captain Radic was asking about Dr. Dejanovic at

20 that time because they had studied together. My second

21 question is: Where did Dr. Dejanovic study? But you told the Court

22 yesterday that he studied in Belgrade; is that correct?

23 A. Well, as far as I can remember I think he mentioned that he

24 studied in Belgrade.

25 Q. If I were to tell you now - and the Prosecutor will perhaps assist

Page 1680

1 me here, I have no doubt - that it can be seen from the indictment that

2 Captain Radic studied in Sarajevo, would that indicate that you provided

3 incorrect data and that Captain Radic actually was not there where you

4 described him as being, that he didn't know Dr. Radomir Dejanovic, and

5 that this is a mistaken -- case of mistaken identity?

6 A. I can't speak about mistaken identity, if the exact words were

7 said that I conveyed. It wasn't me asking him whom he knew among the

8 doctors. I suppose he was talking about this person named

9 Radomir Dejanovic at the time, discussing who studied where, but this is

10 really not something that I can go into.

11 Q. Well, really, Doctor.

12 A. Based on his statement, based on what he said, I couldn't be

13 certain, and I did make this clear in this passage. Maybe they did not

14 study together, but that doesn't mean they didn't know each other. The

15 captain introduced himself as Captain Radic.

16 Q. Excuse me, but I must interrupt you. We've heard about him

17 introducing himself as Captain Radic over 50 times. What I'm asking you

18 about is you provided an erroneous explanation here. You totally mixed up

19 the two different persons, Captain KOS [as interpreted] and Captain

20 Radic. And now you're using a lot of words and being very grandiloquent

21 to avoid giving the answer that I'm asking for.

22 A. I said what I said, and I stand by that.

23 Q. Thank you. Next question: This counter-intelligence service

24 captain who is supposed, in your account, to be Captain Radic, everything

25 that you stated in relation to that points to that conclusion. My

Page 1681

1 question is: Do you know that Captain Radic is a captain of the

2 counter-intelligence service?

3 A. I've tried to say several times that the editor made additions in

4 order to make for a more interesting read. So then the editor added

5 certain observations and remarks of his own which I didn't object to at

6 the time.

7 Q. The question is: Is this specifically something that the editor

8 added or do you in fact know that Captain Radic was a captain of the

9 counter-intelligence service?

10 A. Now, how on earth would I have been expected to know that? But in

11 all likelihood, at least judging on the basis of the time when we did our

12 regular military service, all those who investigated things were, as a

13 rule, suspected at least of being members of the counter-intelligence

14 service.

15 Q. My opinion is you just haven't answered my question. Yet, let us

16 move on, please.

17 Yesterday we talked about the burning of paper. You answered that

18 you only burned some of your personal papers.

19 A. Yes, personal.

20 Q. Yes. Well, the Serbian word is "personal."

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then I added another question yesterday about you burning

23 documents in order to keep it from falling into the enemy's hands.

24 A. No way.

25 Q. You said "no," or as you have just confirmed, "no way." Can you

Page 1682

1 please now again turn to your literary brain-child more specifically page

2 146 and read line 14. "As the army," and so on. 146, page 146.

3 A. Yes, yes, 146. I've got it.

4 Q. It starts: "When the army entered" --

5 A. Line 14?

6 Q. "When the army entered."

7 A. "When the army entered the hospital on the 18th of November, I had

8 to burn some documents to keep them from falling into the enemy's hands,"

9 but this is something that we have discuss.

10 Q. You've just read it out. I'm cross-examining you now. You have

11 provided a beautiful answer. You said three times over the last two days

12 that you never burned any documents to keep it from falling into the

13 enemy's hands, but rather just some personal documents. And now you've

14 read this out. I'm asking you: Which is true, what your book says, your

15 personal view, as you say, or what you testified in front of the Trial

16 Chamber?

17 A. What I testified in front of the Trial Chamber and what I'm

18 testifying now is as follows: I burned -- or rather not me, my wife did.

19 I burned a number of personal documents, but by no means did I ever burn a

20 single medical file that was in the hospital.

21 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that this portion of the book, which

22 says that you burned the documents to keep them from falling into the

23 enemy's hands, is not accurate either, yes or no?

24 A. I told you how the book was produced.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please speak one at a time.

Page 1683

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I couldn't remember

2 accurately what I'd stated at the time and what the author eventually

3 wrote.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. And who is the author?

6 A. The editor. The editor who placed his stamp of approval and gave

7 the go ahead for the book to be printed. He's a very well-known writer in

8 Croatia.

9 Q. We've heard that. But I can't agree with your statement that he

10 is the author and not you, who put your name on the front page and had

11 your photograph printed on the front of this piece.

12 Would I be right in saying that you are, in fact, to be considered

13 as the author of this book? We can see your photo on the front page and

14 the author's name indicates that you were the person who authored this

15 book and not somebody else.

16 A. Yes, that's true. It's only logical that my photograph appeared

17 on the front page. The intention, the idea in the editor's mind was to

18 sell as many copies as possible, needless to say.

19 Q. The editor probably also wanted to make money by selling as many

20 copies as possible. Wasn't that one of the things in his mind?

21 A. That must have been one of the objectives.

22 Q. Even at the cost of perhaps modifying or altering certain facts

23 that you told him?

24 A. I don't think any substantial changes were made, with the

25 exception of certain dates possibly, but the substance remains the same

Page 1684

1 and was not altered. I think if you look at our discussion so far it

2 reflects this truth.

3 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I think I'm overstepping the mark in

4 terms of time, Your Honour, so this may be a convenient time for a break.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic, that's quite right.

6 We will resume then at ten minutes past four.

7 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

9 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I wonder if I could mention two small

10 matters before we commence with cross-examination.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.

12 MR. MOORE: They are really administrative matters. The first is

13 I'm led to understand from the officer of the court that the doctor would

14 wish to finish this evening, because Your Honour will remember that there

15 is a commemoration service in Vukovar this week. That is the first

16 matter, and I know that there is an element of concern about that.

17 The second matter relates to Ambassador Okun. I've spoken to my

18 learned friends. They believe that they will be, at the very least, the

19 rest of the day and perhaps a little more. Of course Ambassador Okun is

20 here; he's waiting to give evidence. But if in actual fact there is not a

21 realistic likelihood of him commencing today, I would ask the Court's

22 leave to release him. As I say, he's of mature years and it's a stressful

23 event for him. Those are the two administrative matters and then there is

24 a legal matter that I would wish to raise with the Court. I'll do them in

25 whichever way Your Honour wishes.

Page 1685

1 JUDGE PARKER: We will deal with administration.

2 I would take it that there would appear to be some sense in

3 allowing the next witness to leave now and not waiting for the rest of

4 today. I think that is a fair approach, given the way things have gone.

5 The present witness, it appears, is anxious to be away so we will

6 keep our delay of the cross-examination now as short as possible in the

7 hope that it may be possible for counsel to deal with the matters that

8 remain in the time that remains. I would ask the counsel that will be

9 cross-examining and re-examining to keep the time in mind as much as they

10 possibly can to accommodate the wishes of the doctor.

11 Now, Mr. Moore, that legal question, must it be raised now or can

12 it wait?

13 MR. MOORE: It can be dealt with now very quickly.


15 MR. MOORE: It's quite simply this. The Status Conference was

16 quite specific. If there was going to be cross-examination, that

17 documents should be provided for the other side. There has been

18 significant cross-examination on a document; we have not been provided

19 with a copy. We have now been given a photocopy in B/C/S; it has now been

20 taken back. And with the utmost respect to my learned friends, if they

21 wish to have cooperation from the Prosecution, then the same principles

22 must apply. And I would hope --

23 JUDGE PARKER: No need to say more, Mr. Moore.

24 I have already indicated to counsel that if you're cross-examining

25 on a document, you should have it available to so that the witness can see

Page 1686

1 it. Clearly, it should also be available to the Prosecution and to other

2 counsel. So if counsel would keep that in mind for future

3 cross-examination, it will improve the flow of things and avoid the

4 unnecessary delay or even the need for an adjournment.

5 Having said that speedily, Mr. Borovic, if you would like to

6 continue.

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The witness

8 could help himself, too, by providing brief answers, if I may add. We

9 shall, of course, do our best to serve onto the Prosecution all the

10 documents in good time. Why has this occurred? We all know about the

11 addenda to each and every witness's statements that appeared several hours

12 before the examination, and we had to cope with it as we went along and

13 take things in our stride. So that is the essence of the problem for us.

14 Thank you for hearing me out on this, Your Honour.

15 Q. When was the MUP building hit?

16 A. I can't remember. It must have been sometime in August, but I

17 can't give you a specific date unfortunately.

18 Q. When the MUP building was hit, did members of the MUP and members

19 of the ZNG, who you said were part of the MUP, run over to the hospital?

20 A. I can't remember this happening, but I think when the MUP building

21 was damaged they went to a different shelter of the former Vupik,

22 V-u-p-i-k, factory. It was a farming factory in Vukovar.

23 Q. Was this shelter near the hospital or not?

24 A. Yes. It was near the hospital, almost as near as the MUP building

25 itself.

Page 1687

1 Q. Is it almost part of the hospital compound?

2 A. It's really nearby -- not that near but very near.

3 Q. You said a while ago that there was an underground passage from

4 the hospital which people could use to leave the hospital, and then there

5 were two or three metres to cross before you reached the MUP building.

6 What about this Vupik building, the underground shelter, is it in the same

7 area as the MUP in relation to the hospital?

8 A. No. It was at the other end of the street. All the other

9 residents and civilians were in that basement, all those who lived in that

10 building, they were in that basement.

11 Q. I see you're conversant with these facts, so how many members of

12 the MUP crossed into the basement of that building, roughly speaking?

13 A. I can't say, but I know that in the building across the way there

14 was a basement where my family were too. And, of course, they talked to

15 the neighbours also at this difficult time where there was destruction and

16 shelling.

17 Q. You say this occurred in August 1991. Does this mean that members

18 of the MUP and the ZNG, that is between August and November, or rather,

19 you can help us along with this, spent all this time in the immediate

20 vicinity of the hospital?

21 A. As I said, the MUP building was hit - it's very difficult for me

22 to be very specific about this - I think it was sometime in August.

23 Q. We've heard that already, thank you.

24 A. But it wasn't a case that everybody left the building because the

25 building could still be used despite the damage. As far as I know, the

Page 1688

1 MUP building, too, had a basement. A long time ago, thinking back,

2 thinking back now to a time ago, maybe 30 years ago, there was a prison

3 there in that basement.

4 Q. Thank you. What about under that building? Was there an atomic

5 shelter, too?

6 A. No, not as far as I know. Obviously, I didn't myself go to all

7 the individual parts of the MUP building.

8 Q. Which parts did you go to? Because you did say on a number of

9 occasions that you went there, didn't you?

10 A. Yes. It's the part that is above the ground, the first door, I

11 think there were two or three entrances. I used the one that was closest

12 to the hospital. I would immediately go to the rooms where the wounded

13 were, those who no longer required hospital treatment.

14 Q. Could you tell the Court about that permit or award, rather, award

15 for cooperation, that you received from the MUP, where you were appointed

16 reserve police officer? Did that bring any privileges to you at the time?

17 A. No, no privileges at all and it meant nothing really. It was more

18 a token of recognition for going there two or three times, as I said, and

19 dressing the wounds of those people who were there.

20 Q. Is that some sort of a thank you note? Is that a decoration that

21 the Croatian MUP awards to people of merit?

22 A. I'm not sure how I would describe that. It is just a pass

23 granting no special privilege.

24 Q. Thank you. If I may be of assistance, did that allow you to

25 obtain weapons?

Page 1689

1 A. No. I never had weapons, nor did I ever ask for weapons.

2 Q. Did you not say that you burned that pass?

3 A. It was my wife. She had it at the time, and she burned

4 everything, all the personal documents, the pass, the passport, as well as

5 the other thing you're asking me about, the reserve police force's ID, as

6 well as the passport and my ID. Perhaps some other personal documents,

7 but I think that's about it. My wife burned all of those alongside

8 with --

9 Q. Thank you. What did you burn?

10 A. I didn't burn anything myself.

11 Q. Thank you. Will you then agree with me that you're now in fact

12 changing a part of your testimony when yesterday you said that you did

13 burn some documents and now you're saying that you didn't?

14 A. Please, it's perfectly simple. You can go back to yesterday's

15 testimony. You can check the transcript, and I clearly stated that my

16 wife did this. If you can go back to yesterday's transcript, you can

17 check my statement, my testimony.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's precisely what I

20 did at one point earlier today.

21 Q. I showed yesterday's testimony to you and my questions were

22 perfectly clear.

23 A. So was my answer.

24 Q. Your answer was not that your wife did but that you were burning

25 the documents to keep it from falling into the enemy's hands, and today

Page 1690

1 you're telling us that you didn't burn anything at all.

2 A. Please don't twist my words and don't put words I didn't say into

3 my mouth; this is not something I stated. I talked about my personal

4 documents and keeping it from falling into the enemy's hands. I gave it

5 to my wife, who then proceeded to burn it, burn the whole lot, with the

6 exception of what I just mentioned.

7 Q. We didn't hear this bit about falling into the enemy's hands, but

8 I will no longer be pursuing this matter, which is of no crucial

9 significance to these proceedings. Can you tell the Court where the x-ray

10 room used to be in the hospital, describe its location.

11 A. You have the emergency ward, you enter the emergency ward --

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a minute, I

13 apologise for this interruption. I move that Exhibit 64 be placed on the

14 ELMO or displayed on the screen; this is the sketch drawn by the witness.

15 We might want to use this to help the witness to provide a more accurate

16 answer.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic. That will be obtained

18 while you carry on.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit 65 is the one that has no

20 additions, no markings. Exhibit 65 has no markings made by the witness,

21 no numbers added. Exhibit 65, please. This is an unmarked sketch. Thank

22 you.

23 Q. Do you have that in front of you, Doctor?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you be so kind as to indicate where the x-ray room was.

Page 1691

1 A. I'm not sure if you can see me indicating the location.

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Can the doctor please receive some

3 technical assistance.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Please take the marker to the doctor.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just placed a dot where the x-ray

6 rooms were.

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Would you please be so kind as to draw a rectangle around that

9 dot?

10 A. [Marks]

11 It's not very pretty, is it?

12 Q. We don't have that on the screen, to be quite honest.

13 A. I'll do it again.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. [Marks]

16 JUDGE PARKER: You want that exhibited?

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I was going to do it eventually, but

18 we may as well do it now since we started on it. So I move that this be

19 admitted into evidence, please.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received. Carry on then, Mr. Borovic,

21 while that is implemented.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Q. Doctor, could you now please use the sketch to indicate the

24 location of the Crisis Staff.

25 A. The Crisis Staff?

Page 1692

1 Q. Can we see it on this sketch?

2 A. No. It's outside the sketch. If you look at the main entrance --

3 Q. Thank you. All I was asking is whether we could see it on the

4 sketch or not.

5 A. No, we can't.

6 Q. Very well, then. Could you please use the sketch to indicate the

7 location of your room.

8 A. Which room do you mean?

9 Q. The one that you used in your capacity as a hospital doctor.

10 A. I was not using any single room in the hospital in my professional

11 capacity as a hospital doctor.

12 Q. Thank you. What about the room to the right of the plaster room

13 that you marked the other day? That was not the Crisis Staff room, was

14 it?

15 A. I'm not sure what you mean. Doctors sometimes use that room as a

16 meeting room to discuss emergency cases. So that is true, and I placed a

17 dot there.

18 Q. Was the Crisis Staff in that room or not?

19 A. I don't think that was the Crisis Staff room.

20 Q. The room that you marked, were weapons kept in that room at any

21 point in time?

22 A. No, never.

23 Q. What about when they brought in wounded police officers and ZNG

24 members? Where would they leave the weapons that these wounded members

25 had on them?

Page 1693

1 A. When those seriously wounded were brought in -- well, I'll

2 indicate that on the sketch. Here you have the emergency ward, and there

3 is a small room just next to it; you pass it on the way in. There was a

4 pantry there with security. If you turn left or right from there, there

5 are operating theatres, part of the surgical ward. There is one to the

6 left and another one to the right. There is no need to clarify what that

7 means. As soon as the patients were admitted, the security took over

8 their weapons, after which they would leave the weapons here

9 provisionally. And later the weapons were taken to the MUP.

10 Q. What about the security themselves, where did they keep their

11 weapons?

12 A. The hospital security only had pistols to the best of my

13 recollection. I didn't see any more than that.

14 Q. Thank you. So I assume they carried those pistols, if indeed they

15 only had pistols?

16 A. Pursuant to orders received from the MUP.

17 Q. Thank you. And how many men were armed in the hospital,

18 approximately?

19 A. I cannot say precisely right now, but if you allow me to think it

20 over, I think two or three men in total.

21 Q. Thank you. We talked about the room where Sasa Jovic was. Was

22 there a man, a security, in front of his room?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recall the name of this police officer?

25 A. His name was Damir Samardzic.

Page 1694

1 Q. Thank you. How long was Damir Samardzic posted outside this

2 room? Could you give us an idea from what time until what point in time?

3 A. I cannot quite recall when he was posted there first, but I

4 believe this was when they were brought to this room. And I can also show

5 you here on the sketch, because that room is not represented here on the

6 sketch. It is here to the right of the x-ray room. There was a room with

7 a small window up there, and they were here in this room and where -- the

8 part that I am indicating now is where the wounded were. And outside here

9 where I put this dot, that's where the security officer was, to prevent

10 any incidents from occurring.

11 Q. Thank you. And how long did this guard -- how long was he posted

12 there?

13 A. He was there up until the 20th, the morning of the 20th, when he

14 was taken away together with the other men, put on the buses, and winded

15 up in Ovcara.

16 Q. Thank you. Could you now please just mark this first rectangle

17 indicate -- just put number 1 there.

18 A. Do you mean the x-ray room?

19 Q. Yes. And then number 2, mark the room where the weapons were

20 held. And with a -- and put 3 where Sasa Jovic was held.

21 A. There were three of them there.

22 Q. Well, then, mark that room where three JNA soldiers were kept.

23 A. Well, they were kept there for a while, and then later they were

24 moved.

25 Q. In the period of time between the 17th and the 20th of November in

Page 1695

1 this x-ray room, did the police leave behind 300 automatic rifles?

2 A. I don't think so. The entire defence did not possess 300 -- the

3 defence of Vukovar did not possess that many weapons. I'm not sure. I

4 don't know for sure. But there were some weapons there, perhaps someone

5 brought a weapon or two there as a provocation, but certainly there

6 weren't that many weapons.

7 Q. Not that many?

8 A. No, not at all. As I said, this is a room where security guards

9 left their rooms and then they were taken to the police; after all, this

10 was within the competence of the police station.

11 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this: Was there a guard -- were there

12 security guards outside of the hospital buildings?

13 A. I don't know that there were any.

14 Q. Okay. If you don't know, fine. Now, could you tell us where the

15 Elektroslavonija building was?

16 A. Yes. From here, it was about -- so looking from the hospital it

17 was about 150 to 200 metres away.

18 Q. If I tell you that there was firing coming from that building at

19 this period -- in this period of time, would you have any documents

20 indicating that? Do you know that there was any firing coming from that

21 building?

22 A. Do you think I could see anything from the basement, whether there

23 was firing or anything? No, I couldn't see anything.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I would now request once a number

Page 1696

1 was assigned to this sketch, because we haven't received that number, for

2 this document which is admitted into evidence, and I move that this

3 document be scanned and then admitted into evidence.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Could the -- Doctor, could you please mark with a

5 number 4 the position where you said a hospital security guard stood.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, next to number 3, which

7 I indicated here, there was a Serbo Chetnik member or members of the Serbo

8 Chetnik JNA. And then below that there was security officers. This is

9 the place where I will -- which I will mark with 4, with number 4. This

10 is where the guard was, the security officer, if I can call him that.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I think that just completed,

12 Mr. Borovic, the record of markings. That document in its present form

13 will be received as the exhibit.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this will be Exhibit Number 66.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I hope this worked. I hope it

16 wasn't deleted. So I just suggest that perhaps we check that.

17 JUDGE PARKER: We are told, Mr. Borovic, that it will be recovered

18 during the break.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Could the usher now please show another sketch to the witness,

21 place it on the ELMO? We are done with the old sketch. Could you please

22 adjust that a bit? It's a bit skewed. Thank you.

23 Q. Are you familiar with this sketch?

24 A. No. This is the first time that I see this plan.

25 Q. Thank you. If I tell you that this sketch was published in your

Page 1697

1 book, and if I were to show this to you, what would your reply to that be?

2 A. My reply would be that I did see it, but what I meant was this is

3 the first time that I see it as a piece of evidence here because I can

4 even tell you who made the sketch.

5 Q. Well, we'll come to that later. My question is this: Are you

6 familiar with this sketch or not because you seem confused just a minute

7 ago. So are you familiar with it or not?

8 A. This sketch is not part of that portion of the book which was

9 mine, my authorship.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask -- may I ask the usher to

11 show the witness this book again, please?

12 Q. The question is this: Have you had a chance to see your book, to

13 take a look at it?

14 A. Yes, I've just seen it.

15 Q. Do you see this sketch in the book, including the floor-plan?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is this identical to the one that I showed you which was placed on

18 the ELMO?

19 A. I suppose it is.

20 Q. Does this mean that you have just changed your previous statement?

21 A. Yes -- no -- well, I have to explain how this came to be in here.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. Well, it's important to clarify this, to make this more clear.

24 This is something that the editor wanted, and he asked for it, for the

25 floor-plan of the sketch.

Page 1698

1 Q. Well, you see, I'm not trying to confuse you. But just tell me

2 what you can see on the ELMO here, this is the only sketch where you can

3 indicate or put any markings when I ask you questions. So just answer

4 this: Is this sketch that is on the ELMO identical to the sketch

5 that's -- that was published in your book, yes or no?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. May I have the book back, please.

8 Who made this sketch? Who drew it up or who participated in the

9 drawing-up of this sketch?

10 A. Well, as I tried to tell you a little earlier - and I wasn't

11 really given the opportunity - when I presented my text to the editor, as

12 you can see from the sketch that we were referring to earlier - I'm not

13 very good at this, at making sketches - so at the editor's request, he

14 obtained this sketch, he obtained the floor-plan of the hospital and put

15 it in the book. And I suppose that he obtained this sketch from the

16 architect.

17 Q. Do you know who else participated in the production of this

18 sketch?

19 A. No.

20 Q. If I were to tell you that this sketch was drawn up by senior

21 nurse Binazija Kolesar, could you confirm that?

22 A. No, because I don't know.

23 Q. Thank you. Now let's take a look at the sketch. Can you see here

24 the area, because we --

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] This is slightly out of focus, so

Page 1699

1 could you please -- could you please place this in focus for the witness's

2 benefit.

3 Q. Can you see the room that is marked with number 10 here?

4 A. I have to admit -- just give me a moment. I'll have to get --

5 Q. If you look at the ELMO, you will have a clearer view.

6 A. Yes, I can see it now.

7 Q. Is this -- this is my question: Is this room, number 10, was that

8 your office?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you see the room marked with number 1?

11 A. Let me -- just give me a moment.

12 Q. It's right there next to this smaller staircase. Can you see it

13 right there by the entrance and then straight ahead?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was this the room where the Crisis Staff was?

16 MR. MOORE: [Microphone not activated]

17 I'm terribly sorry. I can't see the numbers on the electronic

18 representation.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Nor can anybody, Mr. Moore.

20 MR. MOORE: Would it be possible for a pen to be used for the room

21 to point at?

22 JUDGE PARKER: I don't know whether it is the quality of the

23 actual plan that is put on the ELMO or whether the ELMO is out of focus.

24 You're holding something, Mr. Borovic.

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I made copies of this.

Page 1700

1 I have copies for the Trial Chamber and my colleagues. The problem is in

2 the focusing. I have a number of copies here, so could perhaps the usher

3 pass them around --

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, Mr. Borovic.

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] -- starting with Your Honours. With

6 Your Honour's permission I would repeat this so that we can all follow.

7 Q. So can you see room number 10?

8 A. I can locate it on the ELMO, but I have to admit that I can't

9 quite point at it here on the screen.

10 Q. All right. Do you see the list up there in the left-hand corner?

11 Can you see there listed the types of rooms under different numbers?

12 A. Yes, but it's very fine print and I have to admit that it puts a

13 lot of strain on my eyes.

14 Q. Thank you. If I help you and tell you that it says there, under

15 number 10, that this is Dr. Njavro's office.

16 A. Well, all I can say is that whoever made up this sketch obviously

17 thought that I was more important than I actually was because I never

18 spent time, any time, in that room because this was a room for urological

19 patients.

20 Q. In other words, you did not have an office of your own?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right. Under number 1 it says here that this was the a room

23 where the Crisis Staff was. What is your reply to that?

24 A. Well, the same. I can say that whoever compiled this sketch or

25 this floor-plan and marked it thus, marked these rooms in this way, this

Page 1701

1 was his arbitrary interpretation, and I don't know how it found its way

2 into the book.

3 Q. Could you please tell us what room number 20 was. Maybe I can

4 help you out because I am more familiar with this. Under number 20 it

5 says that this was the room of soldier Sasa Jovic.

6 A. Number 20?

7 Q. I'm sorry, number 26, room 26.

8 Was this the room where Private Sasa Jovic was?

9 A. I have to say that I'm confused by this sketch. I think it would

10 be easier to point it out at the sketch which I made myself. I have to

11 say that I'm not very good at orientating myself here. I don't even know

12 what part of hospital this is, where it says 27, 28. I have no idea which

13 rooms these are and what part of the hospital.

14 Q. Thank you. Let me just remind you that Binazija Kolesar took part

15 in compiling this sketch, and now you're telling us that it does not

16 reflect reality and that it's not absolutely accurate; correct?

17 A. Well, I think Binazija Kolesar could never, not then or ever, draw

18 up a sketch like this, although she was a very capable nurse but I don't

19 think she had the technical knowledge to draw up a sketch like this --

20 although, again I have to repeat, I can't really read this because it's

21 very fine print and although I have my glasses on, I can't really figure

22 out what is where.

23 Q. If I were to tell you that Binazija Kolesar is listed at the back

24 of the book as one of the authors of this book, does this mean that she

25 did not take part in the writing of this book or that she didn't put

Page 1702

1 together this sketch or what?

2 A. No. I wasn't trying to say that she did not take part in the

3 putting together of this book, but perhaps she was the one who just gave

4 input for this sketch to be drawn up.

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I believe

6 that the witness did deny some portions or some areas of this sketch, but

7 he did not actually question its authenticity, so I would move to have

8 this admitted into evidence.

9 MR. MOORE: We would object.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I move that it be marked for

11 identification for the time being. Once it's been translated into

12 English, I will move to have it admitted into evidence.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, it will be marked for identification.

14 If you have objection, it will considered when the motion is for it to

15 become evidence.

16 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked for identification.

18 THE REGISTRAR: It will be number 67, Your Honour.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. My next question: Witness, when you went to the police building,

21 did you see any radio equipment there?

22 A. No. I only stayed in the other room. It was more of a corridor,

23 really.

24 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you about the radio equipment. So you saw

25 none?

Page 1703

1 A. None.

2 Q. Thank you. Could you please explain to the Chamber how you sent

3 those faxes, whereas -- well, you actually stated that you did send some.

4 Can you please describe the technical aspects of what you did when you

5 sent those faxes.

6 A. I personally never sent a single fax. It was done by a lady

7 called Vera something who was the secretary of Vesna Bosanac. Vesna wrote

8 and sent most of those appeals that were eventually sent to Hotel I and

9 were from there dispatched to the statesmen and politicians all over the

10 world.

11 Q. And when you sent yours, what did that look like?

12 A. I'm not sure, as I say --

13 Q. Well, if you can't be a bit more specific, how exactly was that

14 done?

15 A. I dictated the letters, the substance of the fax messages, and I'm

16 not sure how she sent them, technically speaking.

17 Q. Did you have one or several Motorolas at the hospital? Did

18 you personally own a piece of equipment like that?

19 A. No. I had no Motorolas, and I had no technical equipment other

20 than what was in this room that you indicated. I'm not sure about the

21 number you mentioned. Can't remember the exact number, but there was a

22 telephone there which was the only telephone which had an open line to the

23 outside world, as far as I knew.

24 Q. What about the police officers inside the building, did they have

25 Motorolas?

Page 1704

1 A. I really don't know. I didn't look around to see who was carrying

2 what. I had too many other things on my mind.

3 Q. When there is a problem on the ground and the phone lines are

4 down, and as you said you left the hospital several times, then what

5 happens? Who communicates?

6 A. I don't need any communication in order to go and see my family.

7 Q. I didn't refer to that sort of intervention, but rather you in

8 your professional capacity as a doctor and the duty you had towards the

9 wounded.

10 A. Well, Dr. Bosanac is well aware of that. She was in charge of the

11 emergency service. She knows how communication was maintained. I suppose

12 they did have a line that they used to communicate messages to the

13 hospital, and then an ambulance was sent out. Personally, I did not have

14 a Motorola or any mobile piece of equipment.

15 Q. Thank you. What about Dr. Vesna Bosanac, to your knowledge, how

16 did she keep in touch with the outside world?

17 A. I don't know. She is the one who should answer that question.

18 Q. Can you remember the number 44560? Who did that number belong to

19 at the time. I know it's been a long time, but please try to think back

20 and remember.

21 A. No, I can't.

22 Q. If I told you that this was one of the telephone numbers of the

23 Main Staff of the National Guards Corps, would you then remember if

24 perhaps you called them at any time?

25 A. The Main Staff of the National Guards Corps, no.

Page 1705

1 Q. You didn't?

2 A. No, I didn't. I don't remember.

3 Q. You don't remember?

4 A. But I didn't. I'm nearly certain that I didn't.

5 Q. Do you know where the Main Staff was, the Main Staff of the

6 National Guards Corps?

7 A. I knew that their headquarters, their Main Staff, was in the

8 former shelter of the former secretariat for All People's Defence of the

9 town of Vukovar.

10 Q. When were you there?

11 A. I was there only once. I'd been called by the commander known as

12 Mali Jastreb, but that was long before. I think it was early in

13 September. The shelling was not as intense at the time. You could still

14 move about. I went there and asked him to try to secure some ambulances

15 as well as other medical equipment and medicines.

16 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that this paramilitary formation

17 supplied some medical equipment to you or medical supplies?

18 A. No. But I did ask and I don't think it's a paramilitary unit.

19 That's one thing. Secondly, as defence commander, together with the other

20 Jastreb, I assumed he would have been well-placed to request assistance

21 from Zagreb. They had arrived from Zagreb to try to secure some medical

22 supplies at least so that we could help the wounded. The number of the

23 wounded group on a daily basis gradually.

24 Q. Thank you. How far was that Main Staff from the hospital?

25 A. Perhaps just over 300 metres, but it's a rough assessment. I

Page 1706

1 didn't exactly measure it.

2 Q. Thank you. Will you agree with me if I say that it would have

3 been much simpler for you to walk the few metres to the MUP building,

4 since as you said the ZNG were under the control of the Croatian MUP or,

5 rather, the police station? What was the reason behind your decision to

6 run the risk of being seriously injured just to cross that open area?

7 A. Perhaps we misunderstood each other. Your Honours, I need to

8 explain what the competence of the MUP was. Pursuant to an order from

9 Zagreb, Jastreb 1 and Jastreb 2 arrived in Vukovar in late August 1991.

10 They were there, and we were told when they arrived in the hospital that

11 they were the ones who would take over the defence of Vukovar. They were

12 a logical choice to go and speak to when medical supplies needed to be

13 secured, whatever was necessary, whatever was indispensable in order to

14 administer assistance to the wounded and sick.

15 Q. Thank you. Does this mean that back in August, Stipe Polo had

16 superiors whose names were Jastreb 1 and Jastreb 2? That's my first

17 question. For the benefit of the Chamber, Stipe Polo was the police

18 commander, wasn't he, the police chief in Vukovar?

19 A. Yes, he was the police commander.

20 Q. Does that mean that he was subordinated to Jastreb Mali and

21 Jastreb Veliki?

22 A. I didn't concern myself with the military police hierarchies at

23 the time. It wasn't up to me to think about those things.

24 Q. Well, let's try to solve this little riddle, shall we? What was

25 Jastreb 1's name and what was Jastreb 2's name?

Page 1707

1 A. The first one's name was Mile Dedakovic, and the person known as

2 Jastreb Mali was called Borkovic.

3 Q. What sort of relations did you have with Borkovic nowadays?

4 A. Friendly in a distant way. Nothing special. I haven't seen him

5 in a long time, I have to say.

6 Q. Mladi Jastreb, is he a physician by profession?

7 A. Not as far as I know. I think he had completed the military

8 academy.

9 Q. So how should I take your answer when you say that you are

10 friendly in a distant kind of way? You're not colleagues. Am I to take

11 it to mean that or you both worked for the police? How am I to understand

12 that?

13 A. I'm sorry, but I think you're confusing a number of things there.

14 I was a student of the classics, after all, so when I say "colleague," I

15 mean friend. When I say "colleague," I mean friend. I didn't mean

16 colleague as a fellow doctor. Among lawyers, you must after all address

17 yourselves as colleagues, which doesn't necessarily mean that you all have

18 a Ph.D.

19 Q. You do know that Mladi Jastreb was a policemen of the MUP and you

20 were a reserve officer of that same MUP. I thought it was on that basis

21 that you continued your cooperation, but now that you've clarified this

22 point, I believe we can move on.

23 My next question: What was the distance between the municipality

24 building and the hospital?

25 A. About 250 or 300 metres. 300 would be a more accurate estimate,

Page 1708

1 and the command was right next to it, the distance between perhaps 20

2 metres not more.

3 Q. This command or headquarters that is only 20 metres away from the

4 municipality, did this building have an underground shelter? You were

5 there once, after all.

6 A. I was there once, but I didn't go around the building. I just

7 went there to help the wounded and drove straight back.

8 Q. When you were there, is there a staircase leading to an

9 underground area?

10 A. Yes, there is an underground area in the building, I think so.

11 Q. Did you see any radio equipment when you were there?

12 A. No. No, I didn't. To be quite honest, I didn't, but I did see a

13 telephone. Like anywhere else, I didn't have time to look around. There

14 was a lull in the shelling, and it's a well-known thing that during the

15 shelling of Vukovar there would be lulls every once in a while lasting one

16 or two hours. And all those who needed to go somewhere had to dash right

17 off. Some people, unfortunately, lost their lives because they

18 miscalculated the time required to get somewhere. They had to hurry, they

19 had to rush, seize the time, and the same applied to me. I had no time to

20 look around. I just had to rush straight to the hospital.

21 Q. Thank you. Did you sometimes go to that room to administer

22 medical assistance to a colleague of yours?

23 A. No. Because in October the shelling became heavier, 50.000 shells

24 fell, so it was no longer possible -- even if I had been flown there in a

25 space rocket, it would have been difficult for me to reach that building.

Page 1709

1 Q. Since you said you have a problem and are in a hurry to go back

2 for these festivities, please try to keep your answers brief. Keep it

3 down to yes or no, wherever possible.

4 A. I apologise. I will try to be as brief as possible.

5 Q. Do you know whether the members of the ZNG held any prisoners in

6 the municipality building?

7 A. This is something that I heard. An injured man came along named

8 Alfred Hin [phoen] and told me that they were being treated in a fair

9 manner. Logically, I asked who those people were. He told me that they

10 were being treated in a fair and proper manner. However, I can't rule out

11 the possibility just like I protected those people in the hospital, that

12 somebody may have done something that was not proper or fair.

13 Q. When did this man named Alfred tell you that?

14 A. I think it was in the first half of October.

15 Q. Do you know what eventually became of them, since I see that you

16 know something about it?

17 A. I don't know because I left myself. You know precisely where I

18 was taken to, to the camp; therefore, I was no longer in a position to

19 know what had become of them.

20 Q. With this officer named KOS [as interpreted]?

21 A. Yes, this officer but there was another officer, a major, and a

22 lady.

23 Q. Do you know where the Court building is in relation to the

24 hospital?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1710

1 Q. Do you know if at any point in time wounded ZNG or police members

2 were brought from that building to the hospital, if so, when?

3 A. I don't remember any wounded being brought over from the court

4 building, but as I said, we were pressed for space in the hospital. And

5 those patients or wounded who no longer required daily hospital care were

6 taken there, but I don't remember the reverse being the fact, that

7 somebody was beak brought in from the court building.

8 Q. So who was it who drove those people, the ZNG members and members

9 of the police, to the court building and which route did they take?

10 A. People would come from the police. I'm not talking about the

11 ZNG. I'm talking about the police only.

12 Q. When was this now that we are talking about, this bit of

13 information?

14 A. It was sometime in October.

15 Q. Thank you. Was anyone watching them there?

16 A. How do you mean that?

17 Q. Well, there are police members inside the court building, it's

18 wartime. Were there any armed people guarding them? I think that's a

19 perfectly reasonable question.

20 A. I didn't say the court building. I said they were, the wounded

21 were, in the police building. So as soon as they were in the police

22 building, there was no need for anyone to watch over them.

23 Q. The confusion may be yours, Doctor, with all due respect. I was

24 asking you about the court building.

25 A. Yes. But all the while I was talking about the police building

Page 1711

1 and I'll say this again. The police building only, although next to it

2 was a building that belonged to the court.

3 Q. So were there any of those members in the court building?

4 A. I don't know. I didn't see that.

5 Q. Since I see that you went around the police building and the

6 headquarters building, at least on one occasion, did you know in which

7 buildings around Vukovar members of the ZNG and the police were staying,

8 in addition to these buildings already known?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Thank you. In answer to what I think was a question by my learned

11 friend from the OTP, you said that the hospital was hit on the 6th of

12 August and you had to move to the gynaecology ward.

13 A. Yes, the operating theatre.

14 Q. You also testified there were no patients in the gynaecology ward

15 at the time and that was the reason you went there.

16 A. No. The operating theatres were free. There were patients in the

17 ward, but the theatres themselves were not being used at the time. A

18 birth room is one thing and gynaecologial surgery is quite another.

19 Excuse me, I needed to clarify this.

20 Q. You have sufficiently clarified it, but you said there were no

21 patients there. I do accept your present answer, though. I think you

22 said that the shelling stopped on the 17th of November in its entirety.

23 That's what you said.

24 A. The 16th, I said. The 16th.

25 Q. Altogether?

Page 1712

1 A. Altogether.

2 Q. Does that mean that there was no longer any shelling on the 17th?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does that mean that there was no shelling at all on the 18th or

5 the 19th?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The hospital was no longer being targeted?

8 A. On the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th.

9 Q. The hospital was not being targeted?

10 A. No, it wasn't.

11 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether on the 17th, 18th, or 19th,

12 Dr. Vesna Bosanac sent out any of the appeals that we discussed?

13 A. I can't categorically confirm that but I assume, based on my

14 recollection, that she sent the last one out on the 17th or the 18th.

15 Q. Thank you. If I were to tell you now, since the OTP agrees with

16 me on this, I'm quite positive about that, there is no need to make you

17 read telephone-recorded messages or faxes that constitute these calls for

18 help by Mr. [as interpreted] Vesna Bosanac in which she literally states

19 that on the morning of the 18th, at 10 past 10.00 in the morning and 1540

20 hours in the afternoon the hospital was shelled and hit. Does this mean

21 that the appeals that were sent out did not reflect - please mind my

22 question because it's very carefully worded - that the facts reflected in

23 these appeals were false or erroneous, simply untruthful?

24 A. I really can't say.

25 Q. If I say that that's what the appeals state, that on the 18th the

Page 1713

1 hospital was shelled three times, my question is: Is that true or not?

2 A. I don't remember, as I've stated repeatedly.

3 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, but we have evidence I thought that

4 Dr. Bosanac sent off the faxes on the 18th and that related to her

5 personal knowledge. I wasn't aware that she said that she did it with

6 Dr. Njavro. Dr. Njavro can give evidence from what he knows from his

7 personal knowledge, but he cannot, in my submission, do anything more than

8 speculate on the basis of what the -- what has been called the appeal but

9 the fax was on the 17th, 18th, or on the 19th.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one moment.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, that last question didn't relate to

12 that. The question was whether the hospital -- whether it is true or not

13 that the hospital was shelled on the 18th.

14 MR. MOORE: I accept that entirely.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I say something

16 otherwise it might be too late?

17 JUDGE PARKER: Go ahead, Mr. Borovic.

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Moore is suggesting an answer to

19 the witness because I am in the process of cross-examination, and this

20 explanation actually may be even suggesting an answer and it's not

21 permissible to do that. I didn't mention that Dr. Njavro is mentioned in

22 these appeals at all. I just wanted to test the assertions by a witness

23 as well as an exhibit that was admitted here, whether it's true or not.

24 We've done this with other witnesses. Mr. Moore wasn't there on that

25 day. Perhaps he didn't see when the witnesses were reading these faxes

Page 1714

1 and telephone messages.

2 MR. MOORE: May I thank my learned friend for his customary

3 courtesy.

4 My point and my submission is quite simply this: That if may well

5 be that o other people have said that the hotel was hit three times, four

6 times, six times, ten times but that has to do with their personal

7 knowledge. All this witness can be asked is: From your knowledge, do you

8 say this hospital was hit or not? And if so, how many times? It goes to

9 the state of knowledge of the witness. He cannot be asked in relation to

10 the state of the knowledge of another witness.

11 JUDGE PARKER: I'm grateful to counsel for their ongoing

12 assistance, but can I go back to the last question which Mr. Borovic put?

13 It is a proper question and the witness may be able to answer it. And

14 that question, Doctor, was whether it was -- is true or not that the

15 hospital was shelled on the 18th of November.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember, because I was

17 still performing surgeries on the 18th, and I was in the hospital. The

18 last person I operated on was a 3-year-old child. I don't remember if

19 there was shelling. I really was focused on something else. So if there

20 were any shells, I really don't remember whether there were any on the

21 18th, 19th, or the 20th.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. If Your Honours permit

23 me.

24 Q. Earlier you said the 16th, the 17th, 18th, and the 19th you said

25 that there was no shelling of the town and the hospital. Do you abide by

Page 1715

1 that statement?

2 A. Well, I said on the 16th I was still performing surgeries, so I

3 abide by what I said. I didn't hear the shells.

4 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

5 A. But I'm not ruling out the possibility, perhaps in relation to

6 those who were not so involved in their work.

7 JUDGE PARKER: My note of the previous answer was the 17th, 18th,

8 19th, and 20th, not the 16th. I think the witness's answer has dealt

9 with that sufficiently.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. You are

11 absolutely right.

12 Q. Can you tell us how many members, family members, of employees of

13 the hospital were staying at the atomic shelter?

14 A. Well, I really couldn't give you an exact number. I don't want to

15 speculate. Dr. Ivankovic's family was also there. Also the families of

16 some other colleagues, doctors, also nurse Stanko Vujanovic -- actually

17 the sister of Stanko Vujanovic was also there. There were also lots of

18 nurses whose husbands were brought and children brought in over the last

19 days. So I really couldn't tell you exactly how many there were.

20 Q. Thank you very much. I didn't ask you about the last few days.

21 You already mentioned that many people came in that period. But during

22 the time up until the 17th of November, before the Yugoslav People's Army

23 came, there were the employed doctors, the nurses, the aids also. So were

24 the family members of those employees there at the hospital in that

25 period?

Page 1716

1 A. There was shelling every day. A large number of shells were

2 falling, so it was not possible even to blink without seeing or hearing a

3 shell fall on the hospital or somewhere else.

4 Q. The answer -- the question was very simple, yes or no. We've

5 already heard about the shelling.

6 A. Allow me to clarify and I will tell you yes or no. The nurses

7 could not go home in such conditions to see to their families, to their

8 children, their husbands, in order to make it easier for them to stay at

9 the hospital and work better, without too much fear about their near and

10 dear ones, it was possible. And, of course, Dr. Bosanac would know that

11 better because she approved that and we all agreed with that at the

12 hospital, because there were doctors also whose family members were there.

13 Q. So can you finally give us the answer, yes or no?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So approximately how many of these people were there?

16 A. Well, I told you I couldn't really give you an exact number.

17 Q. Was it over a hundred people?

18 A. No. I don't think it was such a large number of persons. It's

19 difficult that there was -- to say that there were so many people in that

20 one room.

21 Q. But do you allow the possibility that there could have been so

22 many family members?

23 A. No, I really couldn't agree with you about that number.

24 Q. Slightly fewer people than --

25 A. Yes, fewer but I couldn't give you the exact number.

Page 1717

1 Q. Thank you very much. Let's make a test.

2 Where was the husband of the hospital director during that time?

3 If I were to tell you that he was at the front and that he was a member of

4 the ZNG, would you believe that?

5 A. Well, I really don't know, and I don't think that he was in the

6 National Guards Corps because when the windows and the window frames were

7 destroyed, everything was destroyed, he tried to close that up as much as

8 he could.

9 Q. Do you know where Dr. Vesna Bosanac's sons were? Were they in the

10 National Guards Corps?

11 A. I think that one son was in the National Guards Corps, but he was

12 seriously wounded. His -- he had sustained injuries to the eyes and to

13 some other parts of his body.

14 Q. So one of the sons was in the ZNG?

15 A. Yes, but very briefly. So you wouldn't really even consider him

16 having been a member.

17 Q. What about Dr. Neda Striber, was her husband in the National

18 Guards Corps?

19 A. I really don't know that. I don't even know his name. And I

20 don't know if Striber is her maiden name or her last name by marriage.

21 Q. Well, I don't want to go through every single point, but perhaps

22 you can give me an answer to the following questions. Were most of the

23 husbands of the hospital employees members of the National Guards Corps

24 and were most of their children outside of the -- outside of Vukovar?

25 A. Can you please repeat that?

Page 1718

1 Q. Were most of the husbands of the female hospital staff members of

2 the National Guards Corps, and were they -- their children at that time

3 outside of Croatia and outside of Vukovar in any case?

4 A. No. I don't know, but I don't believe so, no.

5 Q. Thank you. Were there sporadic electricity and water cuts, and

6 was this power and water supply restored from time to time?

7 A. Well, yes. This happened but then we switched to generators.

8 Q. What about the barracks?

9 A. I don't know that. I wasn't there. I didn't go near it.

10 Q. There is a part of the statement -- of the book which I will not

11 ask you to read out because it may not be a part that you authored, but it

12 says that the electricity was at some point restored to the barracks.

13 Whether this is true or not can be subject to discussion. But the

14 question is: Who would be in the position to turn electrical power and

15 water on or off?

16 A. I don't know that. I assume that that was under the jurisdiction

17 of the government representatives. I don't know who would be turning the

18 electricity and water on and off.

19 Q. Who was the commissioner at the time?

20 A. I think it was Mr. Marin Biling [phoen], but I don't know who was

21 turning the power on and off, who was the one who would be issuing orders

22 to that effect. I don't know.

23 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that he could appoint somebody to do

24 that, he didn't have to do that himself; I'm talking about the

25 commissioner.

Page 1719

1 A. I don't know that.

2 Q. Thank you. Do you know how many JNA tanks were destroyed during

3 the war operations?

4 A. Well, I really don't know the exact number, and I wouldn't want to

5 speculate about that.

6 Q. The allegations in your book, are they real allegations or are

7 they just speculation?

8 A. They are real, they are something that I heard.

9 Q. From whom?

10 A. I heard that from those who were defending Vukovar.

11 Q. For example, who did you hear things like that from?

12 A. Well, for example, I heard -- I heard from -- something like that

13 from Petar Janjic, Tromblon.

14 Q. Did you hear something about the JNA, and if you did, who did you

15 hear it from?

16 A. That was also something that I heard from the defenders of

17 Vukovar, but I really don't know who it was anymore. You really have to

18 take into account that quite sometime has passed since then.

19 Q. Thank you. Did you have enough men to defend Vukovar?

20 A. How would I know how many people would be sufficient to defend

21 Vukovar? I am something different. I'm a doctor, and this is what I was

22 doing. I don't know how many people would be required to defend Vukovar,

23 but I did hear from those who were involved in that how many there were

24 but I don't know how many would be needed.

25 Q. Well, could you tell us how many there were?

Page 1720

1 A. Well, according to what I heard at the end and this is something

2 that Mladi Jastreb, Branko Borkovic, stated, so according to him, there

3 was a total of 2.000 men.

4 Q. A total of 2.000 defenders?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. And these were all members of the MUP and the ZNG?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. Could you please tell the Court if there was a joint command or a

9 command to encompass Vinkovci, Vukovar, and Zupanja?

10 A. I don't know that.

11 Q. If I were to tell you that in your book this is mentioned and that

12 you did talk about this in your book, does that mean that you received

13 this information from someone else?

14 A. Perhaps I did, but once I left. So we are talking about the time

15 in Vukovar. Vukovar is the topic and the time period is something that we

16 are talking about now and not about the period after that, so it's

17 probably something that I heard about after I left Vukovar and after the

18 camp. I really don't know who the commander was, though.

19 Q. But you know there was a joint command, and you found out about

20 that later?

21 A. Yes. I heard about that later.

22 Q. Where was this command located? What did you hear?

23 A. Well, I assumed if it was a joint command, it was located in

24 Vinkovci but I only assumed that.

25 Q. Thank you. Can you confirm or do you know that Mladi Jastreb was

Page 1721

1 frequently in phone contact with Dr. Vesna Bosanac or are you -- do you

2 know that or not?

3 A. Well, no, I don't know anything about that.

4 Q. Well, I don't want to trouble you too much by citing sections from

5 the book, but if I were to tell you - and this is something that you can

6 check - that it says in your book that Mladi Jastreb was frequently in

7 telephone contact with Dr. Bosanac, what would you say to that? How did

8 you get that information?

9 A. Probably from Dr. Bosanac because I was at the hospital with her,

10 but you will allow me to say that time had its effect. So I don't know

11 how often they were in telephone contact.

12 Q. But you allow for that possibility?

13 A. Yes. It's possible, but I really don't know whether that was so

14 or not.

15 Q. Do you know who the president of Croatia was at that time?

16 A. Dr. Franjo Tudjman.

17 Q. Do you know if he came to Vukovar in July 1991?

18 A. I think that in mid-July he did come to Vukovar, and as far as I

19 recall, he came to the centre of Vukovar.

20 Q. Who did he see? What did you hear about that?

21 A. I think that he met the commissioner. I assume that. He was a

22 person in charge, a person of authority.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you know who was the Croat -- Croatian prime

24 minister at the time?

25 A. I think, but I'm not quite certain. It was a long time ago, and

Page 1722

1 there were many prime ministers in the interval, but I think it was

2 Mr. Josip Manolic. I'm not sure though.

3 Q. Well, you made a mistake. It was somebody else. But my question

4 was: Do you know if this prime minister visited Vukovar in August?

5 A. Probably. As far as I can recall, he did, although I didn't have

6 any contact with him whatsoever, but I think that he did visit in August.

7 He did visit Vukovar in August. And I think that the Prime Minister was

8 Mr. Josip Manolic, but I could be wrong.

9 Q. Yes, you are wrong. Do you know whether Franjo Greguric came to

10 Vukovar -- actually the prime minister was Franjo Greguric?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. This was on the 8th of August 1991. Do you know that after that,

13 there was a special measure introduced in Vukovar with special passes

14 being in effect, the ZNG introduced its own passes for Vukovar?

15 A. Yes. There was some talk about special passes and that one needed

16 to report to the Main Staff or to the command.

17 Q. Report to whom or where?

18 A. I think it was either to report to the municipal building or maybe

19 to the people's defence secretariat.

20 Q. Who was heading the secretariat?

21 A. At the time, the head of the secretariat - and this was in late

22 summer - was Tomislav Mercep.

23 Q. And what was his relationship with the military police and the

24 ZNG?

25 A. No, I don't know that.

Page 1723

1 Q. Well, can you tell us, if you know, what these special passes were

2 used for, which the citizens of Vukovar were supposed to use?

3 A. Well, I really don't know. I didn't need one so I didn't use it.

4 Q. Did you use the police pass that you had?

5 A. Well, you misunderstood me. I got my police pass much later.

6 Q. You mean in August?

7 A. Yes. I mean, if we are talking about August, I got it in

8 September.

9 Q. So that was 15 days later?

10 A. No, it was almost a month later. I think it was during Greguric's

11 visit, if my calculations are correct, and I think I can still do that.

12 Q. In your book it says on the 18th, but we won't dwell on that. But

13 the gist of my question is as follows --

14 A. Very well.

15 Q. This pass, which restricted movement, was that something that

16 every person needed in order to leave Vukovar?

17 A. I don't remember that, but I think that that was its purpose. But

18 I really don't remember enough details in order to be able to answer yes

19 or no.

20 Q. Thank you. Two JNA planes were downed. You said -- well, I'm not

21 going to ask you about that.

22 When you heard that two JNA planes were downed, my question in

23 relation to that is: On that day, did the ZNG members block Vukovar?

24 A. I really don't know. You would need to ask that at the ZNG

25 command. I really don't know. I don't have information about that. I

Page 1724

1 don't know.

2 Q. I would then like to draw your attention to your book on page 18,

3 where it states that -- well, I will give you the book. I don't want to

4 appear to be manipulating you.

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher kindly show the book

6 to the witness.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You said page 18 or 17?

8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation].

9 Q. Just one moment. This is on page 18. Top of the page. So start

10 reading from the top.

11 A. Well, just one moment. I need to clarify something. These were a

12 text that were copied from the HINA news agency. This has nothing to do

13 with my thoughts. This is just conveying the daily reports by HINA.

14 These are not my reports.

15 Q. Well, of course, I support that. That's also the position of the

16 Trial Chamber. But would you confirm that it states in that text that on

17 the day that the two planes were downed the ZNG had blocked Vukovar?

18 A. Well, I don't remember that.

19 Q. Does that say that in the text? It's at the top.

20 A. All right. Very well, at the top.

21 Q. It's about five lines down from the top.

22 A. "The ZNGs blocked Vukovar. Military vehicles are not allowed to

23 move around. The only secure road is Vinkovci, Nustar, Mankrinci [phoen],

24 Bogdanovci."

25 Q. Thank you. But as you simply conveyed the media report, this is

Page 1725

1 not your standpoint?

2 A. Well, it's nobody's standpoint. It's information published by the

3 public media. I'm certainly not the author of this, nor did I keep a

4 diary.

5 Q. Would you be kind enough to turn to page 176, and then I won't

6 trouble you with the book any longer. So this is my last point to do with

7 the book.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you be so kind as to read the caption underneath the

10 photograph?

11 A. Page 176?

12 Q. Yes, yes, underneath the photograph. It says: "In the fighting

13 for Vukovar."

14 A. You said underneath the photograph.

15 Q. No, I'm referring to the text below the photograph.

16 A. "In the fighting for Vukovar 104" --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] " -- 400 fighters and MUP members

19 were killed as well as 700 citizens of Vukovar who died of shelling. The

20 enemy losses according to Croatian information is at least 6.000,

21 according to foreign sources 8.000."

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Thank you. Do you have any comment on this part of the text in

24 your book that 6.000 to 8.000 JNA soldiers were killed?

25 A. I cannot assert that. This is simply what we heard and what

Page 1726

1 international media reported.

2 Q. Did you try to verify this before putting it in your book?

3 A. I probably took this from reputable newspapers abroad.

4 Q. Does that mean you believed this information?

5 A. Well, I cannot assert categorically anything about it, whether I

6 believed it or not. I simply conveyed there information, just as I

7 conveyed the information about the number of those killed in Vukovar up to

8 the point in time when we registered those numbers for both sides but

9 actually more people were killed.

10 Q. Thank you. As this is how it is, I will now ask you to read the

11 last sentence of this text, the same text. And then we'll move on.

12 A. "During the war, 2500 wounded were treated in Vukovar Hospital

13 and the number of those who died was" --

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the number.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. As this was information which would be well-known to you, is it

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, but there is also the clinic in Borovo Komerc which took care

19 of a certain number of wounded, so the total number is higher than this.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think the number of

21 80 did not enter the record, so I would like it to be entered into the

22 transcript.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

24 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] That 80 died in the hospital. Thank

25 you.

Page 1727

1 I think maybe it's time for a break. It's up to Your Honours.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic and I, Mr. Borovic, each thought you were

3 saying it was your last question. Our hopes rose, but not so.

4 We will adjourn now and resume at five minutes past six.

5 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Coded signals. Mr. Moore.

8 MR. MOORE: It is, actually. Your Honour, just to assist the

9 Court, we have had an opportunity of discussing various matters outside.

10 The Court is aware that there is a memorial service this week in Vukovar.

11 The doctor has expressed very clear view that he would like to return

12 tomorrow for those services for his own personal reasons. We were working

13 out the timings. Mr. Lukic, I think -- I don't know if he's the one who

14 is actually doing the cross-examination, but whoever is doing it on behalf

15 of Mr. Sljivancanin will be eloquent and I suspect will take, from what I

16 understand, three to four hours. That being the case, if the Court is

17 agreeable, what counsel propose is that the cross-examination ceases this

18 evening at the end of Mr. Radic's cross-examination, that the doctor then

19 is allowed to go home and returns to court at a date that is mutually

20 convenient for all parties for the final part of cross-examination and

21 re-examination.

22 Now, I for my part, on behalf of the Prosecution, am happy with

23 that particular position. I believe I'm right in saying that all the

24 Defence are equally agreeable to that course. But clearly it's subject to

25 the decision of the Court. We merely air it for your assistance.

Page 1728

1 JUDGE PARKER: And it would have the advantage of allowing the

2 doctor to leave to be -- to go home tomorrow. Is that a course that would

3 be preferable to you, doctor? I see you nodding yes.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. We express our appreciation to counsel for

6 their finding of this solution. That gives you a little more freedom,

7 Mr. Borovic.

8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Before I begin putting

9 questions, I wish to have an error in the transcript corrected. On page

10 66, line 10, where it says, "With this officer whose name is Kos," it

11 should say, "with this KOS officer." "KOS" is not a name of a person.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Can you tell me, during those three months, how many ZNG members

15 you treated and how many members of the police?

16 A. As it's stated at the end and as I read out before the break, in

17 the Vukovar Hospital, apart from Borovo, Borovo Komerc, there were about

18 two and a half thousand wounded who were treated. The information as to

19 how many of these were civilians and how many members, I was just about --

20 Q. I was asking you about ZNG members.

21 A. I was just about to say that. We have to be precise. And for the

22 sake of the truth we have to say how many were civilians, how many members

23 of the ZNG and how many were members of the MUP, the police. But I really

24 don't have this information. I do know, however, that the ratio of

25 civilians to ZNG and MUP members was some 65 to 70 per cent in favour,

Page 1729

1 unfortunately I have to say, of the civilian population.

2 Q. How do you know that if you don't have the information?

3 A. Well, this is the information that sticks in my mind from the

4 book, while we were keeping track of this information until the end of

5 October.

6 Q. Does this mean that we can get this information through the books

7 that were kept, the records, that is?

8 A. Yes. Those that were gathered up and taken away.

9 Q. Do you know what the term "Ustasha" means?

10 A. Yes. Of course, I've heard the term and I know what it means. I

11 have even been called that.

12 Q. What have you been called?

13 A. Some people called all Croats Ustasha. If they were calling all

14 Croats Ustasha, then that must include myself.

15 Q. And you personally?

16 A. I think that some have called me, personally, that on entering the

17 hospital, but I cannot say that anybody hit me or physically maltreated

18 me.

19 Q. Thank you. And what do you know about the Ustasha? Who are they?

20 A. The history of the Ustasha movement is something I have really not

21 studied, and how the Ustasha movement developed I'm not competent to

22 provide correct information about that.

23 Q. Did you complete secondary school?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is there a subject called national history in secondary school?

Page 1730

1 A. In my time, and this was around 1959, in the late 1950s, we did

2 study history, whether the name of the subject was national history I

3 couldn't say or general history or whatever.

4 Q. Does that mean that you had a subject called history in school?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. And what kind of marks did you have as a pupil in secondary

7 school?

8 A. Well, I was a very good pupil, not to exaggerate.

9 Q. So you must have had very good marks in history, I assume?

10 A. I think I had very good marks, yes, not excellent.

11 Q. As you had very good marks - Their Honours and I know less about

12 this - who were the Ustasha forces, according to what history says? Did

13 they belong to the fascist forces in World War II or were they

14 antifascists? You must have learned that lesson.

15 A. Well, that's easy to answer. They did belong to the fascist bloc,

16 not the antifascist bloc. That was a completely different bloc.

17 Q. Very well. Can you then explain why you, who are obviously of an

18 antifascist orientation, would have been called a Ustasha.

19 A. Well, you have to ask those who called me that name, not me. I

20 don't know the reason. I don't see any reason.

21 Q. Thank you. Sremska Mitrovica, you were taken there?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. You say that you made a statement there. Did you write it in your

24 own handwriting?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1731

1 Q. Did you sign it?

2 A. Correct, yes.

3 Q. Did you give it of your own free will?

4 A. It's hard to say now after entering --

5 Q. So you don't want to speak about that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you. The military court in Belgrade, I've

8 already touched on that.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I have an additional question about it. You said there was a

11 judgement.

12 A. No. A judgement was never handed down, as far as I know.

13 Q. But there was a trial.

14 A. Yes, there was.

15 Q. How many judges participated? You remember, you were sitting in

16 the courtroom.

17 A. There was one judge sitting across from me, to the right was a

18 court reporter, to my right was a counsel, and to my left the prosecutor.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you. As my colleague Mr. Domazet also asked you

20 about this, you said: No, there was no investigation, there was a trial.

21 I have to tell you now: Do you agree - I'm not trying to teach you - but

22 do you agree that for the crime of armed rebellion, the mandatory sentence

23 is ten years or more? And in all trials there are always Trial Chambers

24 consisting of three to five judges. Do you agree that this was the case

25 in Croatia before and now?

Page 1732

1 A. I'm not familiar with court procedure, but why would all those

2 people have been there around me?

3 Q. If I tell you that this was an investigation, not a trial proper,

4 because in a trial proper there is a Chamber of three judges or, in cases

5 of more serious crimes, of five judges. As there was no panel, would you

6 agree that you were never actually tried but that you were simply heard

7 once by an investigating judge?

8 A. No, because then I would have been there on my own. What would I

9 have to do with an investigating judge? At that trial, I had counsel, a

10 captain, I don't know what his name was.

11 Q. Jankovic?

12 A. I don't know, but I do know he was a captain and I think he was in

13 the air force.

14 Q. All right. So there was one judge?

15 A. As far as I can remember.

16 Q. So this could not have been a trial proper. Let's leave it. If I

17 tell you that there can be no proper trial heard by only one judge and

18 without an investigation phase before that, would you agree?

19 A. I don't know. I can neither agree nor disagree. What I'm telling

20 Their Honours is what it was like and how I was treated in that court. I

21 felt that it was a trial, and that's why I'm saying that.

22 Q. How many times were you questioned, only once?

23 A. Yes, only once.

24 Q. Thank you. And the statement that we have, the only one you

25 signed, is that the statement you gave? You signed only one statement in

Page 1733

1 the military court?

2 A. No. I never signed any statement in the military court, at least

3 to the best of my recollection.

4 Q. I can tell you that you signed only one statement, and I believe

5 the statement was invoked by the OTP. It's a signed statement, and I will

6 show you the statement now.

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, do you want to see a

8 copy of that statement?

9 Q. Is that your statement? Is that your signature?

10 A. I would need to look at it more closely. This is a photocopy, and

11 some of these look like my signatures. In some places my signature

12 appears to be missing. Some pages appear to be half signed. In order to

13 be able to confirm your question, I would have to go through the entire

14 document.

15 Q. Please do so.

16 I got this statement from the OTP, just for you to know.

17 Have you had enough time?

18 A. Yes, please go ahead.

19 Q. Do you remember this statement? You might want to keep it for the

20 time being. Do you remember this statement?

21 A. Yes. I know that I was questioned, but I can't remember

22 specifically.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Can you please give the statement

24 back to the doctor. I have another question. Can the usher please give

25 the statement back to the witness. We are in the middle of

Page 1734

1 cross-examination here. Thank you.

2 Q. Can we see your signature at the bottom of these pages, with the

3 exception of page 1, which is the official part?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Can you look at page 2, please? Does it say,

6 "investigating judge"?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Well, do you now believe me that this was an investigation, not a

9 trial, now that you've seen this?

10 A. I do believe you, although up here it says "military court in

11 Belgrade," and that may be why I made a mistake.

12 Q. Thank you. Shall we then agree that there was no trial, merely an

13 investigation?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document. I would like to

16 have my copy back, please.

17 I asked you these questions because you stated in chief that you

18 had been acquitted. I wanted to show this to prove that all that ever

19 happened was an investigation. There was no trial. You had already been

20 exchanged and the proceedings were suspended. However, you are not a

21 suspect here or an accused. This is a mere circumstance that I wish to

22 present to the Chamber. At the beginning of his examination-in-chief,

23 Mr. Moore very much emphasised the fact that you were being held in

24 detention with no foundation at all and that you were later released.

25 A. I never stated that I was released. I was clear about this. I

Page 1735

1 was exchanged and proceedings had been afoot against me, but no decision

2 was ever handed down. No indictment was delivered and no acquittal was

3 delivered.

4 Q. That appears to be the correct answer. Can you please tell us:

5 What does the expression "battalion" mean?

6 A. The word "battalion" in Croatian would mean, roughly speaking --

7 just a minute, please --

8 Q. Is that a brigade, perhaps?

9 A. No, that might be a bit too big in terms of size.

10 Q. So it's smaller than a brigade?

11 A. Yes, smaller. I think it comprises about 100 soldiers, roughly

12 speaking, at least based on what I heard in my time.

13 Q. Fair enough. Do you know how many battalions there were at the

14 Vukovar front?

15 A. I really don't know.

16 Q. If I tell you that this is something that's in your book, but we

17 are not going into that because information is available on this. The 1st

18 Battalion was at Sajmiste, the 2nd was as Mitnica, the 3rd and Borovo

19 Lusac, and the 4th in Vukovar and at Novi Bogdanovci. Would that

20 information be consistent with the fact, such as they were on the ground?

21 A. If this was written by Mladen Sreb [phoen]. I think he was the

22 one who wrote this. You should be asking him, not me. He's responsible

23 for that bit of information, not me.

24 Q. We've dealt with this book quite extensively. You must understand

25 that the Defence had to deal with it because of this late information that

Page 1736

1 you provided the OTP with. Why did you not state that there were other

2 people who authored the book alongside with you? Because many people seem

3 to have been involved in the making of this book.

4 A. You're asking me about my co-authors. Well, when the book was

5 written we wanted to inform the public about what had happened in

6 Vukovar. Mali Jastreb was not the only one who wrote this. There was

7 another one of the commanders or defenders, I'm not sure, from Sajmiste or

8 Mitnica. I think Sajmiste.

9 Q. What's his name?

10 A. I think Stjepan Sucic.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please place this on

13 the ELMO? It's a map. We will have this on the screen, so I'm not sure

14 if it's necessary to distribute copies. There appears to be no reason.

15 Q. Can you see the map?

16 A. Yes, but before you ask any questions, counsel, I must say this is

17 a military map. I would be hard put to interpret or read this military

18 map. This was enclosed and perhaps drawn by Branko Borkovic, Mali

19 Jastreb.

20 Q. Branko Borkovic?

21 A. Yes, Branko Borkovic. He knew all the operations and he headed

22 the Vukovar defence and quite competently, if I may add.

23 Q. If you could please put this on the screen so that we can all see

24 it, I accept that Mali Jastreb was the one who drew this. And there is an

25 index at the top of the map. Blue means Croatian forces, red means the

Page 1737

1 aggressors' forces. Isn't that what it appears to say?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Could you confirm that blue colour used to mark the Croatian

4 forces surrounds in their entirety places such as Vukovar and Borovo

5 Naselje, and there is an uninterrupted line leading to Vinkovci and

6 Bogdanovci. Can you see that?

7 A. What exactly do you mean?

8 Q. I mean the blue line. These are the Croatian forces?

9 A. I understand that, but what I don't understand is the road being

10 open entirely to Vinkovci and Nustar.

11 Q. Let's take one thing at a time.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] If I could have the map back on the

13 screen, please, so that I can follow. Thank you.

14 Q. Let's tackle this portion where it says "Vukovar" and "Borovo."

15 Can you see that?

16 A. Yes, I see both.

17 Q. As far as the Danube?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Does it not appear to be surrounded on all sides by Croatian

20 forces?

21 A. Not surrounded by Croatian forces, but surrounded by the JNA

22 forces on both sides, both banks of the Danube, you can see it quite

23 clearly.

24 Q. But this section of the map showing Vukovar and Borovo, do we see

25 a line here marking the positions of the Croatian forces?

Page 1738

1 A. I'm not sure I should be interpreting this, not being a military

2 person myself or a military expert.

3 MR. MOORE: The witness has said this is not his map, that he

4 would have difficulty interpreting it. I can certainly understand

5 questions about red and blue, but if it is one step further, again to try

6 and interpret the military element, I have two objections. One, it's not

7 his map; and two, he does not have the expertise or the knowledge on the

8 evidence that he's given at this stage.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, everything you say is correct, but I

10 don't think that Mr. Borovic has reached that point yet. So we will carry

11 on and see whether we do go too far or stay within this witness's capacity

12 to deal with questions.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm doing my best not to

14 ask any provocative questions or answer -- or ask any questions that the

15 witness might be in no position to answer.

16 Q. So my question is: Do you not see that around Vukovar and Borovo

17 there are blue markings or lines signifying the Croatian forces, according

18 to the index that we see at the top of the map?

19 A. That's only in as far as I can interpret this military map, drawn

20 by an expert. I'm a layman in these matters. I know nothing about these

21 matters. I know, since you've told me, that these forces that were marked

22 in blue are surrounded on all sides by the forces marked in red on both

23 banks of the Danube, as well as other areas belonging to Vukovar

24 municipality. The blue troops seem to be fully surrounded in fact.

25 Q. Thank you. You see this map is dealing with the situation as it

Page 1739

1 was in the second half of October 1991.

2 A. It says here --

3 Q. The 19th?

4 A. Yes, that's right. And the movement of the first humanitarian

5 convoy on the 13th is also recorded.

6 Q. Can you confirm just by looking at this map, without going into

7 any military interpretations, being as you are just a witness who happened

8 to be in Vukovar at the time, can you agree with my assertion that the

9 Croatian forces to a large extent held the area of Vukovar and Borovo

10 under control?

11 A. But this is not the entire area of Vukovar. It's not Vukovar in

12 its totality. There is an area of Vukovar here that is outside the

13 control of the National Guards Corps or the police for that matter, such

14 areas as Petrova Gora and part of Sajmiste. This can be seen clearly on

15 the map. It's a sizeable area.

16 Q. Since you seem yourself to have ventured into a military

17 interpretation, can you please indicate Petrova Gora and Sajmiste on the

18 map because I can't see these.

19 A. I'm saying this because I'm familiar with the area, and I know

20 where things are. When you go from Vukovar to Negoslavci, this is the

21 area referred to as Petrova Gora, and further east in the general

22 direction of Belgrade, if you like, is -- rather, if you go towards

23 Negoslavci, you will find Sajmiste. And over here in the direction of

24 Petrovci, where the Ruthenians lived, were the prevailing ethnic

25 group, is a section of Vukovar which is on a high ground and it belongs to

Page 1740

1 Fruska Gora or Mount Fruska.

2 Q. Thank you. My last question on this subject is: Were Croatian

3 forces comprehensively in control of Vukovar, Borovo, and Sajmiste at the

4 time under consideration here, the time that the map shows?

5 A. For the most part, if you look at Vukovar itself, because outside

6 Vukovar Lipovaca and part of Borovo also belong to Vukovar, but for the

7 most part, yes.

8 Q. Another question that I forgot, which will be my last question:

9 On the 19th of November, when the army, as you said, exchanged the

10 reservists, do you remember if those soldiers were wearing white belts?

11 A. I don't remember who among them was wearing what, unless they

12 declared themselves as JNA members, as some others declared themselves as

13 members of the White Eagles.

14 Q. I asked you about the JNA. Do you remember?

15 A. No, I don't remember what sort of belts they were wearing. I

16 really don't remember that.

17 Q. Thank you. You testified in chief that only specific surgeons

18 were able to operate on human organs and use them for transplants and for

19 organ trafficking.

20 A. Yes. You can take the example of Croatia now. In Croatia at

21 present there is only one team qualified to do that sort of thing. The

22 others don't venture into that area. When needed, they extract organs in

23 compliance with all the laws of medicine. This is a special skill and a

24 separate profession really, and then they take it elsewhere, wherever it's

25 needed.

Page 1741

1 Q. You spoke of yourself as an expert, which I am certain of, but do

2 you have the skill required to do this?

3 A. No.

4 Q. This was not meant to taunt you, but it's just that the Prosecutor

5 asked certain questions about this.

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I decide to call it a

7 day. This may not be the most convenient time for me, but I must take

8 other things into account as well.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

10 Mr. Lukic? Are you wanting to continue now?

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We are ready to go.

12 That's no problem at all. We might start now. There is another thing

13 that I wanted to ask. Please don't think that I'm now going into

14 something that is normally up to the Chamber, the Chamber's responsibility

15 and the Chamber's duty. But please, since the witness is being released,

16 could you caution the witness of his duties, the duties that are incumbent

17 upon him once he leaves this courtroom? We know that the witness will

18 probably have an opportunity to meet other witnesses in the meantime

19 before he returns. I have just gone through the manual on the protection

20 of victims and witnesses. I have seen no provision governing that

21 situation, and I am aware of what the duties of a witness are when a

22 testimony is interrupted. Therefore, I would kindly ask the Chamber to

23 caution the witness about these things.

24 JUDGE PARKER: As the cross-examination by you, Mr. Lukic, may not

25 continue until some unpredictable time in the future, I think it would be

Page 1742

1 preferable for us to break now and allow you to make a clean start

2 whenever it resumes. So we will now adjourn.

3 Mr. Moore?

4 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, before the witness leaves the Court, I

5 would submit that the Defence have not cross-examined in the way that's

6 laid down in Rule 90(H)(ii) where what is said is quite simply this: "In

7 the cross-examination of a witness who is able to give evidence relevant

8 to the case for the cross-examining party, counsel shall put to that

9 witness the nature of the case of the party for whom that counsel appears,

10 which is in contradiction of the evidence given by the witness."

11 In my submission, what has not been done so far is as follows: It

12 has not been put to the witness whether in actual fact he disputes or that

13 on behalf of Captain Radic it's disputed that there was any meeting with

14 Dr. Njavro on the 18th; if there was a meeting with Dr. Njavro on the

15 19th; whether in actual fact there was a removal of Aric on the 19th and

16 the return of Aric, which I believe was on the 20th. Those are specific

17 allegations against Captain Radic. In my submission, the Rules are

18 perfectly clear on that, and my learned friend is beholden to let the

19 witness have an opportunity to reply to that. And indeed the matter

20 should be clarified for the Court and the Prosecution's benefit. And as I

21 say, the Rules are mandatory, not discretionary.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore. You want to respond now,

23 Mr. Borovic? I was going to say that the Chamber would give you time to

24 reflect on that, and if you felt there was anything further that you

25 should put to comply with the rule, you could do that when you resumed.

Page 1743

1 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] That's what I thought, Your Honour,

2 but for the sake of facts, I never mentioned Aric myself. It was an

3 example of improper conducts by the Defence, but that was not actually

4 right. But I will reserve the right to respond to this, if there is a

5 need.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, it's not a matter of you reserving

7 right, but once you've had an opportunity to consider your

8 cross-examination, before the witness returns, if you conclude that to

9 comply with the rule, which is clear and mandatory, that you need to put

10 some other matter to the witness, you might apply to the Chamber then for

11 leave to do so.

12 Doctor, as you've gathered, we are now going to adjourn, with a

13 view to you being able to return as you wish to Vukovar for the balance of

14 this week. At some time in the future that fits in with the time-table of

15 this trial and your own affairs, you will be asked to return to complete

16 your evidence.

17 If you would bear in mind that during that break, you should not

18 discuss your evidence or the circumstances relevant to this case with any

19 person, that will avoid you and others encountering potential difficulty.

20 You should simply indicate, if somebody wants to talk about the case, that

21 you are in the course of giving your evidence and you are not free to talk

22 about the evidence with anybody else. And you most assuredly should not

23 talk to other witnesses in this case about your evidence.

24 With those words of advice and caution, we will now adjourn to

25 resume tomorrow at 2.15.

Page 1744

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.45 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

4 November, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.