Page 2140
1 Wednesday, 23 November 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.33 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Could I ask you, please, to read
7 aloud the affirmation on the card that is given to you now?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: WITNESS P-016
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma?
15 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour. And good afternoon to
16 Their Honours and the Defence team as well as to the witness.
17 The next witness is a protective witness and so I would like to
18 have some assistance by usher here, and in order to provide the witness a
19 piece -- a sheet of paper.
20 Examined by Ms. Tuma:
21 MS. TUMA: And I would like the witness not to read out loud while
22 we are not in private session what says on the paper. So not -- and I
23 would like the witness to read it through, the information about the
24 witness's particulars, both regard to the date of birth and location of
25 birth and name, and to confirm or not to confirm if it's the -- if the
Page 2141
1 information is correct. Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The information is correct.
3 MS. TUMA: Thank you. Before I start to do the
4 examination-in-chief I would like to -- just to give somehow information
5 to the Court concerning this witness. The witness has protective
6 measures, as we all know, and that is face and voice distortion as well as
7 a pseudonym and that is number P16. However, this witness's profession
8 could have the consequences that I would like to ask for private sessions
9 in a more wide, broad manner than I could perhaps do in -- in terms of
10 another sort of witness. Concerning the profession the witness has at the
11 time of the time frame of the indictment, there were only another 15
12 persons occupying the same profession, and that's why some of the
13 information the witness can -- will give to us could reveal the
14 identification of the witness. I just want to give that kind of
15 information before we start. Thank you.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
17 MS. TUMA: I would like to start with private session because I
18 would like the witness to describe the witness's professional background.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
20 MS. TUMA: Thank you.
21 [Private session]
22 (redacted)
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9 [Open session]
10 MS. TUMA: Thank you.
11 Q. At the time when you were (redacted)
12 (redacted), can you describe for us in general what kind
13 of areas you did cover? (redacted)
14 And if you know when you're answering the questions so give us a
15 hint so to say so we can go into private session if that is needed, if you
16 think your answer will reveal your identity, please. Thank you.
17 A. Madam, you said this was something that is quite peculiar.
18 Your Honours, I believe my position was in fact so peculiar that I would
19 be very easy to identify every time I mention names or specific events.
20 There is always a possibility that someone might link these names and
21 events to my identity. I can only offer my apologies, although that is
22 certainly not my fault. I would like to share whatever information I have
23 with you at the expense of the public being informed unfortunately. I
24 will try to answer the question, however.
25 (redacted)
Page 2153
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4 Q. Thank you. Did you have any kind of specialty?
5 MS. TUMA: And now we can go into private session if you did have
6 a kind of specialty that could be linked to your identity. So I request
7 for a private session before the witness is answering that question.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
9 MS. TUMA: Thank you.
10 [Private session]
11 (redacted)
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19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
21 MS. TUMA: Thank you.
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
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25 (redacted)
Page 2154
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5 Thank you.
6 A. I'm trying to think of something specific because there were
7 always things going on. I'm not sure what might be especially note
8 worthy, if you could please elaborate or tell me what exactly you want me
9 to talk about, then perhaps I can answer.
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't get that because I was talking to my case
16 manager. Do you want to go into closed session?
17 JUDGE PARKER: The question is whether you see relevance to going
18 into detail of the work he did in Knin. On the face of it, it is not
19 relevant.
20 MS. TUMA: From the Prosecution side it could be relevant,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE PARKER: In what way?
23 MS. TUMA: Because the -- depends on the answer from the witness,
24 of course, but there are -- if the witness will mention a specific name of
25 a certain fighter, and that will have relevance for the case later on, in
Page 2155
1 terms of the individual criminal responsibility for one of the Accused.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Is this an issue of identification or of conduct of
3 that person at Knin?
4 MS. TUMA: It's more about the conduct of the person in Knin.
5 JUDGE PARKER: How is that relevant to what happened at Vukovar?
6 MS. TUMA: In Knin, if the -- I can't say what the witness perhaps
7 will tell us here, of course.
8 JUDGE PARKER: But if the witness did certain things in Knin --
9 MS. TUMA: Yes.
10 JUDGE PARKER: -- how does that prove that he did some other thing
11 or the same thing in Vukovar, if that's what you're getting at?
12 MS. TUMA: I'm getting at if now the witness answers in a certain
13 specific way, that the witness perhaps would mention a name of a certain
14 fighter that was present at a certain occasion in Vukovar for the time
15 frame of our indictment. And that is in terms of the behaviour of that
16 person in Knin that the witness encountered.
17 [Trial chamber confers]
18 JUDGE PARKER: We go into private session.
19 [Private session]
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14 [Open session]
15 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Now I would like to move over to Vukovar. And I would like to ask
17 the witness when the witness were present in Vukovar.
18 A. Now there is a problem here again. This is very important, and
19 I'm going to start naming names. So for me to be able to give valid
20 answers to your questions, we have to go into private session.
21 MS. TUMA: Your Honour, I request for private session. Thank you.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
23 [Private session]
24 (redacted)
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4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We have reached the time when the tapes
7 must be rewound so we will adjourn. As there have been redactions, we
8 must adjourn for half an hour.
9 Now, Mrs. Tuma, there have been some markings on a map. Are you
10 wanting those preserved?
11 MS. TUMA: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I do want to have
12 that and we can, before we end this session, I would like to admit that as
13 an evidence and exhibit, please.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It stops at Negoslavci. Is that what you want?
15 MS. TUMA: The witness had marked here from Sid up until entering
16 of Vukovar. So that is --
17 JUDGE PARKER: Very well, yes. Very well.
18 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 111, Your Honours.
21 MS. TUMA: Thank you.
22 JUDGE PARKER: We now adjourn and will resume at quarter past
23 four.
24 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.
Page 2167
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mrs. Tuma.
2 MS. TUMA: Are we still in private session?
3 JUDGE PARKER: No. You want to go back to private?
4 MS. TUMA: I would request private session, please, yes.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
6 [Private session]
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24 [Open session]
25 MS. TUMA:
Page 2173
1 Q. I would like now to go to use another map that has been used in
2 this case, and that is Exhibit number 48, number 48, with the ERN number
3 04639058. Thank you.
4 Does the witness have the sketch plan in front of you?
5 A. Yes, yes. I do have the sketch in front of me, but it's quite
6 pale and very small.
7 Q. We'll see if you can get some assistance here, if it's possible to
8 make it clearer.
9 A. Can we zoom out a little? It's fine now.
10 Q. Okay. So when you reached the hospital, where did you go? And
11 can you please mark that on the sketch, please? And you can have the
12 number 1.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic?
14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour, for
15 reacting this soon. In my submission, this sketch was produced by one of
16 the witnesses in this trial and this is an especially leading question by
17 the OTP. There are handwritten markings made by that witness on the map,
18 which indicates to the witness what he's expected to say. I believe this
19 is essentially of a leading nature, the entire exercise. We should have
20 given him a blank one, have him draw it and then mark it himself. I
21 believe I'm right in suggesting this. Thank you.
22 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Mr. Borovic, that the general layout of
23 the hospital is one that has not been sufficiently contentious for this
24 witness to indicate where it was he was. As far as I know, but you may be
25 proved right, but as far as I know, he has not going to give us a detailed
Page 2174
1 description of everything that was in the hospital. He is merely going to
2 indicate where he was, and I think that can be done on this map. Thank
3 you.
4 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. So can the witness please mark with a number -- figure 1, where
6 you went when you came to the hospital? And tell us as well.
7 A. As I've already said, I turned off the main street, what I believe
8 to be the main street at the time, down the gentle slope and within a
9 matter of minutes I was standing in front of the annex which I believe is
10 the new part of the hospital. This was the only part of the hospital that
11 I saw. I arrived right there in front. The road was relatively broad.
12 It was an asphalt road. There were steps in front, and the facade was
13 made of glass, as far as I remember. There were two glass doors. There
14 was an extension - I'm not sure how long the extension was - in front of
15 the hospital, how long the asphalt road was. There were ambulances parked
16 there. So that was the first image that I caught sight of when I reached
17 this entrance to the hospital.
18 Q. I see a red marking. What will that show? Can the witness
19 explain that?
20 A. The red marking shows the spot where I stopped.
21 Q. Thank you. And when you were standing there, what did you see?
22 A. The first thing I saw to my left was a pile of dirty bandages.
23 That was the first thing I set eyes on within my sight. To the right
24 there was a small chair or rather a small table, there was a bin liner on
25 the table and protruding from the bin liner was a bit of a lower arm
Page 2175
1 belonging to a man. It was placed against the wall. This was the first
2 photograph that I took in Vukovar, and I took maybe two or three shots of
3 this, moving left and right, looking for a perfect angle.
4 Q. Thank you. I will return back to the cross that you made on this
5 sketch. I asked you to number it with number 1 as well. So please put --
6 please do that, where you were standing and make the marking, number 1.
7 Thank you.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. TUMA: And I would like to admit that into evidence as an
11 exhibit, please. Thank you.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Are there any other markings you want on this? Or
13 is that the marking?
14 MS. TUMA: Depends on the witness's answer but probably that could
15 be another -- number 2 marking, yes.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Well, if you move quickly, we might get it on to
17 this exhibit as well.
18 MS. TUMA: With due respect, I would like to keep the witness --
19 JUDGE PARKER: That's not convenient? Very well. We will receive
20 this now.
21 MS. TUMA: Thank you.
22 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 112, Your Honour.
23 MS. TUMA:
24 Q. When were you standing there, can you in your memory say -- tell
25 us what time of the day it was?
Page 2176
1 A. It was in the early afternoon hours. It was a lovely day, really,
2 sunny. (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted) So in
6 answer to your question, early afternoon hours.
7 Q. Thank you. When you were standing there, did you speak to anyone?
8 A. Well, I was focused on that arm. When I raised my eyes I saw the
9 hospital entrance, and standing between the two doors I saw two tall
10 police officers. Just across the way I saw a captain whom I had not seen
11 on my way there. He was leaning against the wall, hands behind his back.
12 Q. Did you recognise him?
13 A. I have what you might term a photographic memory. I'm lucky to
14 have it, I should say. That was at least what they told me when we were
15 tested once back at school. I have a great memory for landscapes, faces,
16 images. I'm not that good with numbers and names, though. But if I see
17 someone, a person, two or three times, I tend to memorise them, and the
18 person I recognised there was Captain Radic. Usually you remember the
19 person's first name or last name, or the nickname, and the only bit that I
20 remembered about this person was his last name, Radic.
21 Q. Have you been -- have you been seeing him before, in any context?
22 MS. TUMA: And now we can go into private session, please.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
Page 2177
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15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
17 MS. TUMA: Thank you.
18 Q. When you were standing there and you saw Captain Radic, did you
19 see anything else when you were standing there? And please tell us that,
20 what you saw. Thank you.
21 A. At this time, I saw military policemen opening the door, and I saw
22 soldiers bringing out who I believed were Croatian prisoners of war on
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 taking them to camouflaged JNA ambulances.
Page 2178
1 Q. Could you estimate how many you saw at this time?
2 A. I spent about 15 minutes there, and I can say with certainty that
3 between 15 and 20 different persons were carried off on stretchers.
4 Q. In what way were those persons laying on the stretchers dressed?
5 A. What really stunned me at the time, based at least on the images
6 that I saw around me in Vukovar, that was the only rational sight that I
7 could behold in Vukovar at the time. They were clean-shaven, their
8 pajamas were clean. They were light blue with stripes. They looked very
9 neat, to me, as though this wasn't war and as though it wasn't Vukovar.
10 So that's the one image that I remember. (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted) Some of them had
14 visible injuries. I saw their arms and legs bandaged, while some others
15 had no injuries that could be readily seen. Some of them were not even
16 prone on the stretcher. They were sort of sitting on stretchers. At
17 least those 15 to 20 that I saw were young men, young and good-looking,
18 aged for the most part between 20 and 30. I don't think there was a
19 single one among them that was aged over 25. They were really quite
20 young.
21 Q. Thank you. So you spent 15 minutes there and you were standing
22 there. Did you have a conversation with anyone at that time? And who was
23 that, in that case?
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2179
1 (redacted) I greeted
2 Captain Radic but he cut me dead.
3 Q. What -- was there anything more said at this time? And I would
4 like to remind the witness that we are in open session now.
5 A. I found it strange and it was an unpleasant feeling. You know the
6 feeling when you greet someone and the person doesn't greet you back. He
7 was looking straight ahead of him. I was trying to save the day so I
8 asked him how many wounded there were, just like that, for no particular
9 reason. I wasn't even interested in the number at the time. Yet there
10 was no reply from him. And I started muttering to myself but out loud
11 saying something like this: "It's good that there should be as many as
12 possible so we can exchange them for those of our soldiers who had been
13 captured." He was looking at the wounded who were being carried off, and
14 he asked me, "Do you know how many of our men they killed?" This was
15 easier for me now so I simply replied by saying, "I have no idea, no one
16 is writing about it. No one is talking about it."
17 We stood there looking at the wounded people being stretchered
18 off. I remarked for no special reason, "Look at them, how nice-looking
19 and clean shaven they are." I said it for nothing, just like that,
20 because that was the only rational thing I was able to behold around me at
21 the time. And he replied, "These are dead men." My reaction was a
22 knee-jerk reaction, as it were. I said, "But these people are alive."
23 And he told me, "No, you can't see right. These people are dead." I
24 really felt very uncomfortable.
25 It had already become a routine for me to have all these
Page 2180
1 experiences of various kinds in the war. I took two steps in the
2 direction of the hospital and I was talking to myself, I said aloud, "Off
3 I go to do some work." It was a kind of defence mechanism, a reaction. I
4 wanted to be rid of that uncomfortable situation. As I approached the
5 hospital down at the far end of the corridor I spotted Major Sljivancanin
6 and I told myself, "This is really not your lucky day. I'll try not to
7 meet this one." Then I turned back and walked back the same way that I
8 had walked to reach the hospital in the first place.
9 The reason I decided not to enter was because I had seen
10 Sljivancanin there. Why? Allow me to clarify. The previous evening he
11 had put on a show with the International Red Cross representative. To say
12 the least I had found the whole experience sickening. I still remember a
13 lot of what was said, although it has been a long time. He tried to
14 familiarise this person with our history, with our difficulties, telling
15 him something like, "What are you doing here to begin with? Why don't you
16 leave this war to us to wage this war the way we want?" But this was okay
17 within a more collective frame of reference that we used, and most of my
18 colleagues, needless to say, reacted in a negative way. They thought he
19 shouldn't have been explaining all these things to this person, to begin
20 with. I'm not sure what the English expression is but they said stuff
21 like, well, he could go on and on like that until the cows come home. So
22 that was the sort of scene that I witnessed. That was the prefer occasion
23 that I saw him. And particularly this very unpleasant occasion when he
24 was talking to this International Red Cross person.
25 If we go back into private session, maybe I can provide another
Page 2181
1 piece of information just to complete the picture. Briefly, if possible.
2 MS. TUMA: I would like to go back before we are doing that, to go
3 back with a few questions to ask the witness about this incident. Thank
4 you.
5 Q. You mentioned that -- and now we are in open session. You
6 mentioned that you felt uncomfortable when you heard that -- when Captain
7 Radic said that these men are dead. Can you explain that feeling for us?
8 You said you felt uncomfortable. What does that mean?
9 A. I'm trying to be rational about this. If you see them at a
10 distance of two metres, young men aged between 20 and 25, and then
11 somebody comes up to you and tells you that these people are dead, well,
12 to say the least it must cause you to feel strange. You start doubting
13 the rational powers of the person you're talking to. You start asking
14 yourself questions, what is this about? I was in no position to go that
15 far. I wasn't considering the possibility but I must say the situation
16 was unpleasant to say the least. Even with all my experience from the
17 war, even with my being used to these situations, but sometimes you have
18 this red alert feeling suddenly out of nowhere and you ask yourself
19 questions, like, is this person sane? That's at least the way I felt at
20 the time.
21 Q. Thank you. Where did you go after the hospital?
22 A. After the hospital, I walked back the same way. An incident
23 happened that I could perhaps -- that I could clarify.
24 JUDGE PARKER: If you would just pause. Thank you.
25 Mr. Borovic?
Page 2182
1 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour. I really
2 must offer my apologies but maybe I wasn't clear enough at the outset when
3 I explained this. I think it might be more helpful for someone who is
4 testifying for the first time to be shown a photograph, a blank
5 photograph, so he could use it to indicate where he went and what route he
6 took. If we keep using this sketch, he can read the names of all the
7 rooms that he had perhaps gone to.
8 I move that we adopt a more objective method to further pursue
9 this exercise, at least as far as indicating locations in and around the
10 hospital is concerned.
11 [Trial chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma, I would like you, with the witness,
13 first of all to ask him to describe where he went. It may then be useful
14 to get him to indicate on a plan or a map. Whether or not there will be
15 the difficulty that Mr. Borovic foresees will, I think, largely depend on
16 the description first given by the witness. So we will hear that first
17 and then see whether or not there is need to turn to a plan, and if so,
18 what that plan should be.
19 MS. TUMA: Understood, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 Q. So can the witness, without any kind of marking, describe where
21 the witness went after the hospital?
22 A. After -- well, I didn't enter the hospital, as I said. So after
23 the hospital, I took the same route. I hadn't gone even five or six
24 metres from the corner of the hospital when two young women passed me by,
25 one had dark hair, the other had brown hair. I turned around and saw that
Page 2183
1 they were wearing white uniforms under their coats. They were 22 or 3
2 years old. Judging by their coats and the fact that they were young, I
3 assume they were nurses. They went right past me and the dark-haired girl
4 was crying. The one with the lighter hair had her arm over her shoulder
5 and I heard the dark-haired woman say, "How can they say that we are all
6 Ustashas?" And she continued crying and they went off and took the route
7 I had just taken.
8 There was a small wall -- well, a wall of about three metres high,
9 since the annex building was dug into the ground. I saw a gentleman from
10 the International Red Cross whom I recognised because the man on the
11 previous two or three evenings, at least according to the television -- I
12 don't know how much time actually went by, but anyway, he had a heated
13 debate with Major Sljivancanin, and he was standing stock still and
14 looking towards the hospital.
15 There was a vehicle nearby, I think it was a jeep, a Toyota
16 probably, with the International Red Cross emblems and it said Geneva on
17 it and the man was dressed in white with the same International Red Cross,
18 Geneva, insignia. That's what I saw as I was leaving the entrance to the
19 hospital.
20 Q. Thank you. Did you see any other Red Cross personnel at this
21 spot?
22 A. Well, as far as I remember, there might have been a man in a
23 vehicle, but there was just this man standing outside the vehicle, the one
24 I identified from having seen him on television.
25 Q. Thank you. And what did you do next?
Page 2184
1 A. I set off towards the street, the main road, and I saw a group of
2 photo-reporters, and I went a little further down where there was a park,
3 and I came across a shocking image. There were bodies lined up, lines of
4 bodies, and I thought there were about 80 bodies and I was just wrong on
5 the body count because there were 83 bodies in actual fact, and they were
6 covered with transparent foil. (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted) There were
9 women, men, naked, luckily there weren't any children. But the whole
10 scene was very disturbing and terrible to behold. I can take many things
11 but to see that many bodies in one place is difficult for anybody.
12 (redacted)
13 Q. Did you get any information where these bodies came from?
14 A. Yes, yes. I was interested in knowing because I saw that their
15 injuries were not caused by bullets. I had grown accustomed to sights
16 like that. There were more civilians there than soldiers, and I asked who
17 the people lying there in the park were, and a woman told me that they
18 were people who had died from the hospital and were brought there because
19 they weren't able to bury them. That's the information I was given. That
20 is to say people who had died a natural death or succumbed to various
21 injuries but because of the war and wartime conditions they weren't able
22 to be buried in the usual manner.
23 Q. Thank you. Did you observe anything else on the main street or
24 along the main street?
25 (redacted)
Page 2185
1 (redacted)
2 eyes -- your eye becomes tired and has to -- you have to have a rest. And
3 then I saw that from the side streets and from all over, that civilians
4 were coming in. So -- and although the weather was very hot, too hot for
5 that time of year, I saw people wearing two coats, for example, they were
6 dirty, you could tell by their hair that they hadn't washed for months.
7 They looked unkempt. And there was a stench, an indefinable stench.
8 I even saw a woman with a baby, (redacted)
9 (redacted), I went up to the woman, she was young, 20-odd years, 22 or 3
10 maybe, and she told me that the baby was born in a cellar and the baby was
11 10 days old (redacted). I took
12 down here particulars, the unfortunate woman was crying, the baby was very
13 sweet, just like any other baby.
14 But the other people weren't about to talk to me. They were all
15 very distressed. I remember an old woman. She sat facing the sun and her
16 face resembled parchment and she said, "Leave me alone, my son. I want to
17 get a little heat from the sun after having spent three months in a
18 cellar." And I didn't wish to intrude, and ask them any questions and
19 disturb them. Many of the people were crying. They were in a very poor
20 state and didn't wish to communicate in any way.
21 Q. Thank you. What else did you observe when you were walking along
22 the main street?
23 A. Well, I set off down that street and then once again we go back to
24 the irrational. Somebody told us to walk in the middle of the street
25 because of the mines, and I knew that even without having to be cautioned.
Page 2186
1 But then you saw you weren't able to take the middle of the street because
2 there were soldiers from different units, driving vehicles without any
3 number plates, driving motorcycles. I saw a car, for instance, which was
4 riddled with about a thousand bullets. It was all bullet-ridden. Every
5 centimetre.
6 (redacted)
7 Maybe other people wouldn't have noticed things like that but as I say as
8 I was walking up the street I happened to notice a column of buses and
9 they had JNA signs on them, and I even recognised one of the drivers. I
10 think that we -- well, whether he gave me a cigarette or not, that's not
11 important but we knew each other from before and I asked him, "What are
12 you doing here?" And he said, "Well, we've come to evacuate the
13 population."
14 And I continued along my way down the street and I must say I'd
15 never been to Vukovar before that but I recognised the workers' centre
16 from some photographs I had seen. It's a building where the congress was
17 held. So it's a well-known building and easily recognisable. And at that
18 point I saw something that looked like a building. I didn't know at the
19 time whether it was the Dunav hotel. Some youngsters told me that that
20 used to be the building used to be the Danube or Dunav hotel. (redacted)
21 (redacted), a young man
22 came up to me with a beard (redacted)
23 And we had express orders, or, rather, we were told that if we
24 see any people with beards, that we should do everything they asked us to
25 do, that we should be flexible (redacted)
Page 2187
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 Q. I would like to interrupt the witness and continue when the
10 witness were in Vukovar. Thank you.
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2188
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 Q. You said that you protected. In what way did you -- what did you
12 do in order to do that?
13 A. Well, quite simply I stood between the barrel of the gun, my face
14 turned towards the soldier, and the journalist was actually behind me. So
15 I faced the soldier with the gun pointed at me. That was the simplest
16 reaction. I didn't think he would actually shoot at me, although. When I
17 thought about the situation later on, it was risky business because many
18 of them were carrying bottles of alcohol or they were tipsy themselves,
19 and trigger happy. But I was lucky. (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 MS. TUMA: Your Honour, I would like to go into private session
22 now, please.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
Page 2189
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11 Page 2189 redacted. Private session.
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Page 2190
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Page 2192
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 [Open session]
14 MS. TUMA: We'll now move over --
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma, we have run out of time.
16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We have reached the time where we must
18 have another break. There have been redactions so we will resume at 6.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Tuma, we are in open session.
22 MS. TUMA: Thank you, Your Honour. And then I would like to
23 request for private session because we will continue with this photograph
24 and that could reveal the identity of the witness.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
Page 2193
1 [Private session]
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
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22 (redacted)
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24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2194
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Page 2195
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 [Open session]
7 MS. TUMA: Thank you.
8 Q. And what happened next after you saw Sljivancanin? What did you
9 do?
10 A. My colleagues had arrived in the meantime, and one of them
11 said, "We have our subject matter and we have an interesting topic to
12 tackle." He had received information somewhere at the other end of town
13 that there was an evacuation of Vukovar civilians in the offing and that
14 they would all be taken to the reception centre. I sat down with them. I
15 can't describe the route we took, but we reached the far end of town. We
16 arrived at a plateau with low-lying shacks on it or huts.
17 The first definition that occurred to me when I saw this place was
18 some sort of a hauling company. It was a huge area with a parking lot.
19 (redacted)
20 At this plateau, which was rectangular, roughly speaking, the
21 side facing the town, there were about 20 tables there. Seated at these
22 tables were officers, junior officers, soldiers. Each table had a writing
23 on it saying, "Reception centre. Ruma, Sremska Mitrovica," and all these
24 place names. These are some that I remember. Columns formed there and
25 people's names were recorded on a list. They were given canned food and
Page 2196
1 bread, following which they were herded on to buses. But since there were
2 lots of people, they used lorries too. (redacted) we did not
3 talk to those people who were there. There was no need for us to talk to
4 them.
5 Q. Did you see anything spectacular at that moment?
6 A. Nothing spectacular, really, it's only once the plateau had
7 emptied, once the whole scene had been cleared to a large extent, it was
8 across the way that I saw a group comprising about 100 or 200 people
9 standing there. Dusk was approaching. I crossed the street. There was a
10 warehouse for wood and coal. There was a group of people standing there
11 under the eaves. A middle-aged lady came up to me and said, "We are
12 Croats." She grabbed my hand and I could feel her shivering or trembling,
13 and she asked, "What will become of us, mister?" This is the first time
14 that I felt that someone's legs, not just the arms, but someone's legs
15 were shaking. I had the feeling that her foot would come out of that
16 light summer shoe. I tried to soothe her by saying, "There is no problem
17 at all. Once they are done with the Serbs, you will be the next in line
18 to be evacuated." I just said that to calm her, to soothe her, because I
19 had no idea what would actually happen to those people.
20 So there was this group comprising about 150 or 200 people. There
21 were only women, children, and a few elderly men, but not more than six or
22 seven, I reckoned. All in that group were women and children, aged up to
23 15 for the most part. At this point in time, a military lorry drove up
24 and disgorged about 15 boxes of dry rations, the sort that are used in
25 wartime, the regulation JNA rations for troops on the ground. However,
Page 2197
1 only children went to get those. None of the elderly there were in the
2 mood to go and fetch them. It was only children who went for them. They
3 looked at the cans, they looked at the toast, and as I was talking to that
4 lady, I saw a non-commissioned officer approach me, not sure if he was a
5 corporal or first class corporal. He came up to me and said, "There is
6 nothing for you here. You may as well cross to the other side." Needless
7 to say, I obeyed his instructions. I crossed to the other side, and it
8 was already getting dark and we were getting ready to drive back to Sid.
9 I have no idea what became of those people. I don't know if they were
10 evacuated and how or where they eventually ended up. I don't know.
11 Q. Thank you. Where did you spend the night until the next day?
12 A. It was difficult to get through. We had to drive around this long
13 column made up of buses. We reached Sid late at night and that's where we
14 spent the night.
15 Q. And the next day, where did you go? What did you do then? Now we
16 are on -- the next day will be on the 19th November.
17 A. My apologies, are we still in closed session?
18 Q. No. We are in open session.
19 A. Now I'm about to name specific names and I think it would probably
20 be a good idea to go back into closed session briefly.
21 Q. Okay.
22 MS. TUMA: Request for private session, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE PARKER: I'd remind you the issue is whether the names could
24 lead to identification of the witness, but we will proceed on that
25 assumption.
Page 2198
1 [Private session]
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours?
Page 2199
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Vasic?
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Just for the sake of the transcript,
3 page 59, line 2, I believe the witness said "press centre." This is not
4 reflected in the transcript. So that's the only thing I wish to say.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Colleagues went to Belgrade and he went to the
6 press centre is my note. Yes.
7 MS. TUMA:
8 Q. Can you describe what you were doing later on? You had a vehicle.
9 Did you get to receive that? And where did you go?
10 A. As I've just said, this colleague of mine drove up in a vehicle
11 and he had a driver. I joined them and we took the shortest route that
12 was open in order to get to Borovo Naselje. As far as I was familiar with
13 the local geography, Borovo Naselje was a place with lots of industry,
14 factories such as Vutex and Borovo, the well-known factories. We wanted
15 to go there and see what the situation was in this new part of Vukovar.
16 We managed to negotiate this route and smoothly reach Borovo Naselje. Of
17 course, Borovo Naselje too was scarred by war.
18 What I found noteworthy, to the best of my recollection, this is
19 the day after the fall of Vukovar, we saw buildings on fire. We saw tall
20 buildings ablaze, a building with 20 floors was burning from the 15th
21 floor up. We were wondering how was it possible one day after the end of
22 fighting for buildings to still be ablaze. We were told that this now was
23 the paramilitary units going around looting and torching buildings. We
24 were on our way to the centre and you could see these tall buildings from
25 miles away.
Page 2200
1 We came across this one street that I later identified as
2 Vinogradska street. There was some sort of a hedge there and some holes
3 were dug near it. We saw people in those holes wearing gas masks and rain
4 coats. When we came closer we realised there was a row of nice family
5 houses there. We realised that these people were carrying bodies, dead
6 bodies, and dropping them into these holes. I went up and asked them why
7 they were doing this, and they said they were doing this in order to
8 prevent an infection from spreading.
9 This is where my colleague and I parted ways. I entered a house
10 that was new and quite lovely. As soon as I passed the gate, I saw a
11 scene that remains carved in my memory. I assumed those were a mother and
12 a son. The old lady was about 80 years old. She had silver hair. And
13 her son probably wanted to protect her so they were both lying there as if
14 embracing each other - they were mowed down on the spot - and her head was
15 resting against the son's lower arm. They were lying on the floor, both
16 dead, in an embrace.
17 A little further off was another woman, dead, aged about 30, and
18 what really shattered me was a child that I saw lying there near a cellar
19 or a garage. The child must have been aged three or four. Its hair was
20 on its ends, as if somebody had done a special hair-do using a gel. It
21 was from all the rain and the dust. There was a bullet hole in the
22 child's forehead. Whenever I remember this I'm quite crest fallen. I'm
23 used to seeing death. You do as you get older. But one thing I'll never
24 understand is how someone can kill a child.
25 There were more dead in that street. None of them killed by
Page 2201
1 shrapnel. I had a clear view so I can tell. I even quarrelled with one
2 of the undertakers or whatever they were, those people who were carrying
3 the bodies off. He picked up a lady's body and the skirt she had on got
4 snagged on something, so I asked him to be a bit more careful but he was
5 very brusque. He turned back and said, "Well, if you want to do this,
6 please go ahead and take my place."
7 As I say, what I found particularly depressing is that scene with
8 the child. I can forget about all the grownups whose dead bodies I saw
9 but one thing I can never forget is the child. I can't accept the fact
10 that there are human beings around who are capable of killing a child.
11 Once we move on and went back to the centre of this village, we
12 came upon a scene. There was one soldier wearing a fur hat stepping on
13 another man's, another soldier's head, squashing it. We believed that the
14 man underneath was probably a Croatian prisoner and that the other man was
15 trying to crunch his head. We came closer to see exactly what was going
16 on and the nose of the man who was underneath was bleeding, blood pouring
17 on to the floor. It was a grotesque situation because they had quarrelled
18 about a car and the other plan was trying to squash his head so that he
19 could have the other man's car. One of those who were with me said, "It's
20 totally pointless for you to come to blows over a car."
21 Borovo Naselje was teeming with these paramilitary units,
22 Territorial Defence detachments, local units. The reason, I understood at
23 the time, was that there were many things to be looted there so they had
24 really come into their own, you might say, in Borovo Naselje. They had
25 all those yellow boots, displaying them as war trophies. Borovo Selo had
Page 2202
1 a factory which produced these yellow boots that were fashionable at the
2 time so they were carrying them around as trophies, tied around their
3 necks. And all sorts of different things but these yellow boots are
4 something that I remember in a particularly vivid way.
5 Q. Thank you. You just mentioned that there were paramilitary units
6 and Territorial Defence. In what way can you identify the soldiers as
7 belonging to those kind of units?
8 A. Well, that wasn't a problem because I had rich experience on that
9 score. That was the least of my problems, to be able to recognise a
10 regular soldier and differentiate between them and paramilitaries. With
11 the proviso that this did not mean that the conduct of a regular soldier
12 and that of a paramilitary was the same or was not the same. You had to
13 be very careful in your definitions. So both would be prone to get drunk
14 and loot, but the others were marked because the two that quarrelled over
15 the golf car belonged to a unit called the White Eagles. Now, whether
16 they actually were members of that unit, you couldn't really tell because
17 sometimes they would just brag and a few of them would get together and
18 say, "Now we are going to war" and they would give each other names or
19 their groups names, but they did recognise each other and you could also
20 distinguish between paramilitaries and the others, if you had enough
21 experience. You could identify who was who, judging by their outward
22 appearance, their physical appearance. They usually had caps with
23 cockades, beards, various insignia on them, and even different kinds of
24 emblems and we could even define which party they belonged to. They
25 talked a lot. So it wasn't difficult to gain that information because in
Page 2203
1 the Balkans we are prone to be gregarious and talk a lot.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic?
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a small intervention with respect
4 to the interpretation. When the witness was talking, he was describing a
5 vehicle that is -- was the Golf vehicle. On page 63 in the translation,
6 it says "golf car." Not to be confused with the game golf and a golf car
7 for the golf game.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. I can see where your mind
9 is.
10 MS. TUMA: I would like to turn up a map, because the witness had
11 been talking about the -- describing the village Borovo Naselje. And that
12 is the ERN number 04626621. And that is map number 5 in the compilation.
13 I also would like to take the opportunity to ask to tender that into
14 evidence because, according to my information, it has not have an exhibit
15 number.
16 JUDGE PARKER: I think you can take it that the Chamber knows the
17 location on the map.
18 MS. TUMA: Okay.
19 JUDGE PARKER: If you just want to tender it we can do that and
20 move on.
21 MS. TUMA: Thank you.
22 JUDGE PARKER: I think Defence counsel know it as well.
23 That map will be received as an exhibit.
24 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit number 115, Your Honour.
25 MS. TUMA: Thank you.
Page 2204
1 Q. What happened next?
2 A. Well, we didn't stay there long because my colleague wanted to see
3 Vukovar, but from the other side. So that we went back because he had
4 some of his own assignments that he had to see to and it suited me, too,
5 because I had an assignment too. I had something to do in the old part of
6 Vukovar, in the other part.
7 Q. What kind of assignment was that? Can you describe what it was
8 and what you did observe in that -- during that assignment?
9 A. May we close -- go into private session?
10 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
11 [Private session]
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
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Page 2205
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Page 2206
1 (redacted)
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5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I finished my conversation with
15 this man, and we promised to meet under more normal circumstances and we
16 would be able to talk about things in a different way, that's how we
17 parted. I returned to the old part of town, of Vukovar, as I saw it.
18 MS. TUMA:
19 Q. After that, did you meet any person? And in that sense, can you
20 tell us what you saw or were told?
21 A. What I'm going to talk about now is to my mind very important but
22 requires protective measures, this encounter with this friend of mine.
23 Q. May I ask the witness if the witness then intends to mention a
24 name that could be linked to the witness's identity? Is it so?
25 A. Not only the name, but also an explanation which is directly
Page 2207
1 linked to my own person.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.
3 [Private session]
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
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Page 2208
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Page 2209
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7 (redacted)
8 [Open session]
9 MS. TUMA:
10 Q. Can the witness if there were any specific incident when you were
11 together with this person that we have been talking about and describe us
12 what that was in the sense -- in that sense. Thank you.
13 A. I'm not sure I'm following you. Could you explain the question?
14 I'm a little tired already so perhaps I wasn't following.
15 Q. Did this person describe another fighter or soldier and what that
16 person then were doing?
17 A. I don't know. Apart from that conversation there on that spot,
18 nothing else happened, as far as I recall --
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. -- before we set off to another location.
21 Q. I'll return back to the person we were talking about. Did he say
22 anything about war booty?
23 A. Ah, well, that happened when we -- or rather when I went off with
24 that acquaintance of mine. We spent some time in the company of his
25 fellow fighters, and then we went off to a house where a unit had its
Page 2210
1 headquarters. I didn't know who made up those units, which participated
2 in the Vukovar operations, so I wasn't really interested. I didn't have
3 to know that, wasn't required to. But it was a Lieutenant Colonel. I
4 assume he was the Chief of Staff of some group or other. He was certainly
5 not a commander. And he was very unpleasant when he greeted me. He
6 almost swore at me. And started saying that everything that was happening
7 was not being portrayed in the proper way, that he had lost many young men
8 and that they would be soon forgotten. And he was really furious. He was
9 furious at the Supreme Command, which had not managed the Vukovar
10 operation properly. And he was angry first and foremost at those who had
11 allowed the paramilitary units to take part in the battle for Vukovar.
12 And then he told me -- well, I could say he described a comical
13 scene. This is what he said. He received an order to hand over two APCs
14 to the Serbian Volunteer Guard, Arkan's men, because there were a lot of
15 wounded. He sent off two APCs but, according to his words, he kept
16 thinking about those APCs and they kept moving around in the area next to
17 his headquarters where he was stationed, and the headquarters were right
18 up along the road. He said he would leave the building, leave the cellar,
19 and he stopped the APC on one occasion.
20 He asked the driver what all that was about. And the driver kept
21 quiet. He ordered him to open up the APC, and he found a full load of
22 television sets, white goods, and everything else, tape recorders, and a
23 whole manner of household devices, appliances. He called the soldiers and
24 they threw everything out into the ditch. He did the same thing with the
25 second APC, which was also full of household appliances. And what
Page 2211
1 happened next? An hour later, his commander, the commander of the Novi
2 Sad Corps, called him up, General Andrija Biorcevic was his name, and told
3 him that he must not destroy any more war booty.
4 Now, he asked me whether I was aware of the fact that televisions
5 and tape recorders and household appliances were actually war booty, would
6 I agree with that. I was dumb-founded, and that's what happened at that
7 command post.
8 Q. Thank you. And this was the 19th of November?
9 A. Yes. That was the 19th, the next day.
10 Q. And the next day, the 20th, were you then in Vukovar?
11 A. I was not in Vukovar. I was at about 30 to 40 kilometres away
12 from Vukovar in another locality.
13 Q. Thank you. Did you at any point of time after your presence in
14 Vukovar talk with someone about Vukovar in a specific sense?
15 A. Yes. I did have occasion to do that. And it was towards the end
16 of November 1992. I know that for certain because on the 28th of November
17 of that year I had returned from spending a month in another locality. It
18 was a chance encounter in town, and the man in question was a member of
19 the unit which I mentioned a moment ago. Or, rather, he was from the same
20 unit that that other young man was from, the one driving the motor, except
21 that this one was an officer. And according to my information, he was the
22 most capable of them all, of all the members of that unit. And he had the
23 command responsibility of -- he had a command responsibility but I'm not
24 sure whether he was the commander of the unit or not. He might have been.
25 He wasn't a Serb or Montenegrin by ethnicity, and he complained to me that
Page 2212
1 he had been transferred from the operative unit to an office.
2 I can only imagine how the man must have felt, because at that
3 time, when I knew them, their job was just training, to be trained as well
4 as possible and capacitated for the assignments they were to carry out.
5 We stood out in the street and talked. We were standing to one side so
6 nobody could overhear our conversation. I realised that he was very
7 affected. I couldn't understand him properly at the time but I eventually
8 understood what he had meant when the same thing happened to me two months
9 later. This was the 28th of November 1992 and the same thing happened to
10 me on the 23rd of February 1993, not even a full two months later.
11 Was he bitter? I assume that he was but he would not have told me
12 what he told me had the situation been normal. He said, "They divvied out
13 all the ranks and decorations to Vukovar's heroes," and roughly speaking
14 he said, "Look what happened to me." And he told me how Mrksic and
15 Sljivancanin got all the glory to themselves. He told me about valuable
16 things that were taken from the Eltz castle. He talked about money that
17 had been taken. He said, "Vukovar's truth will never be known. And I
18 mean the dark aspect of the whole story."
19 At one point, he said, "Mrksic and Sljivancanin ordered for those
20 people from the hospital to be killed." I'm standing there looking at
21 him, unable to believe what he was saying. I didn't have the information
22 myself, not at all. And I believe I wouldn't be too far wrong if I say
23 that I was quite well-informed. I saw those people alive. So I asked
24 this gentleman to provide more detail, to tell me how it was and what
25 exactly happened. Roughly speaking, he tells me this: "Sljivancanin and
Page 2213
1 Radic picked soldiers, officers and NCOs that they trusted, they secured
2 the spot." He said that the people from the hospital had been killed in a
3 waste spot, in a spot of waste land. I remember that he used the
4 term "waste land," which struck me as peculiar, but it wasn't until many
5 years later that people started talking about a place called Ovcara and so
6 on and so forth. Truth to tell, I wasn't exactly glad that he told me
7 what he told me.
8 At the time, the best thing was to know as least as possible. You
9 were better off and a lot safer that way. At least that's how I was
10 reasoning at the time.
11 I'm not sure where he lives now or what he's doing. All my
12 contacts broke off, as it were, back in 1993, and personally I was no
13 longer interested in people or events from that time of my life.
14 Q. Did this officer mentioned who executed or who did do the
15 shooting?
16 A. Yes. I'm a little the worse for wear and my focus is not what it
17 used to be but he said those people were executed by members of the
18 Territorial Defence unit, the one that I saw on the ground there, and the
19 paramilitaries. The crime screen was secured by regular JNA units.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you know the name of there officer? And before --
21 if you do know that, then you will ask for private session.
22 A. I did know it for a while but, as I said, he was not a Serb or
23 Montenegrin by ethnicity so that's the extent of what I know about him.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. TUMA: My examination-in-chief is done, Your Honours.
Page 2214
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
2 We've well and truly run over time so we now must adjourn. We
3 will resume tomorrow at 2.15.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m., to
5 be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of November,
6 2005, at 2.15 p.m.
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