Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3309

1 Thursday, 26 January 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir. If I could remind you of the

7 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence, which still

8 applies. And I think Mr. Vasic now is ready to continue his questions.

9 Mr. Vasic.

10 WITNESS: WITNESS P-031 [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Good

14 morning, Your Honours. Good morning to everyone.

15 Q. Good morning, sir. I hope that you remember my warning to make a

16 pause between my question and your answer so that our cross-examination

17 proceeds smoothly.

18 Yesterday you mentioned you had a work obligation. You must have

19 been familiar with the existence of the Vukovar Crisis Staff and the

20 hospital, or medical centre Crisis Staff in Vukovar?

21 A. I already said yesterday that I was not directly familiar with

22 these, but I was aware of their existence.

23 Q. Thank you. Did you know where these two institutions were

24 physically located in October and November 1991?

25 A. No.

Page 3310

1 Q. You testified in chief yesterday that until the 16th of November

2 you remained in your flat, after which you went to a shelter?

3 A. Yes, that's true.

4 Q. Can you tell me if your son was with you in the flat until

5 the 16th?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did he join you on the 16th and did he go to that shelter with

8 you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Can you perhaps tell us where he went after the 16th?

11 A. I no longer remember, really. But I know that when we reached the

12 hospital on the 19th he was there waiting for us.

13 Q. You said that your flat was damaged or destroyed on the 16th, that

14 the building was hit. Why didn't you go to the hospital's atomic shelter

15 but, rather, you chose to dwell in the shelter you told us about?

16 A. The shelter that I mentioned was for the use of people residing in

17 that neighbourhood. The one in the hospital was for the hospital

18 primarily. That wasn't where I belonged, so in -- that wasn't where I was

19 meant to go.

20 Q. Can you please tell me, do you know that at one point in time,

21 between September and November 1991, the Vukovar defence Crisis Staff

22 declared a state of general mobilisation in relation to both the regular

23 forces and the reserve forces of the ZNG in Vukovar?

24 A. No, I didn't know that.

25 Q. You told us how and why on the 19th of November you headed for the

Page 3311

1 hospital. What I want to know is, having arrived in the hospital, did you

2 see any members of the ZNG or MUP there, people you might have known?

3 A. The Croatian army provided the security detail for the hospital,

4 but I knew very few of those people.

5 Q. Can you perhaps drop a name or two among those you did know?

6 A. Yes, I can tell you about one who was the one I saw the most often

7 there. He ended up with me in Ovcara. What happened to him later I don't

8 know. His last name was Mikletic and we called him Brko.

9 Q. Did you see or hear that members of the ZNG and MUP in the

10 hospital put on civilian clothes or white overcoats such as were normally

11 worn by doctors?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you perhaps see or hear that in order for their identity not

14 to be revealed members of the ZNG and MUP dressed themselves up in

15 bandages so as to make themselves look as if they were wounded?

16 A. No, I didn't know about that.

17 Q. On the 19th when you were in the hospital and when the civilians

18 were leaving the hospital, you said that you stayed behind because of your

19 job. What I want to know is did any other people remain there who did not

20 have the kind of job that you had and who were not duty-bound for that

21 reason to stay behind?

22 A. The couple of people I mentioned do belong to that category. But

23 they all worked for the hospital at one time or another. Or else they

24 were family members of someone working in the hospital.

25 Q. Do you know if anyone from the hospital administration ran any

Page 3312

1 checks to see who stayed in the hospital and who left?

2 A. I don't about that.

3 Q. Do you know that two of the gentlemen you referred to yesterday,

4 Emil Cakalic and Goran Vidos, were members of the ZNG?

5 A. I don't know about Mr. Cakalic. As for Mr. Goran Vidos, what I

6 said is that he came to the hospital during the war to work there as an

7 electrician.

8 Q. When you came to the hospital, did you report to the hospital

9 administration to have your name put on a list?

10 A. No.

11 Q. How did your name end up on the evacuation list?

12 A. We met up with my son who was there already, and he said that he

13 had put our names on that list, that an evacuation procedure had been

14 agreed for the hospital.

15 Q. Did he perhaps say when he got to the hospital and when it was

16 that he had put your names on the list, although you weren't there at the

17 time?

18 A. No, he didn't say. I think he arrived one day before we did.

19 Q. In answer to a question by my learned friend yesterday, you

20 mentioned someone named Bogdan Kuzmic. You said he was wearing an old JNA

21 uniform. Was this uniform different from the sort worn by regular JNA

22 soldiers?

23 A. When I did my military service, we used to have this winter-time

24 uniform, olive-drab, made of thick material, and there was a summer

25 uniform, too, also in two colours. Nowadays you have the camouflage

Page 3313

1 uniform and what I now refer to as the old uniform. Not because it was

2 particularly threadbare but because it was more traditional. It was

3 olive-drab and this was the sort of uniform worn in winter normally.

4 Q. Did you sign for one of these when you were given your military

5 assignment in the JNA?

6 A. Yes. In the JNA, but that was 50 years ago.

7 Q. That was precisely my question. When you did your military

8 service with the JNA, because all conscripts signed for these uniforms,

9 all those who were given their military assignment, those who were in the

10 reserve forces, too, right?

11 A. Yes. But I was a scribe, or a notary in the army. A clerk. And

12 I had no further duties. I was never again called to serve in the reserve

13 forces. Not even temporarily.

14 Q. Thank you. You recounted for us yesterday a dialogue that you had

15 with a soldier on the morning of the 20th on your way out of the hospital.

16 Apparently he told you that you would now be six feet under had it not

17 been for the great number of Serbian soldiers who had been taken by the

18 Croats. Did he say that you would need to be exchanged in order to get

19 those soldiers of theirs back?

20 A. He didn't say so explicitly, but I think that was the meaning

21 behind what he actually stated.

22 Q. In answer to one of my colleague's questions yesterday, one of my

23 learned friend's questions, you drew a sketch for us to show how exactly

24 the buses were parked on Gunduliceva Street and you showed us the one that

25 you got on. What I want to know is when the buses left the hospital and

Page 3314

1 headed for the barracks and when they got there, which was your bus in

2 terms of the sequence?

3 A. The fourth bus.

4 Q. When you left the barracks and arrived at Ovcara, what one was it?

5 A. It was the same sequence as previously at the barracks. That's

6 how we set out and that's how we got there. It was the fourth bus, the

7 one that I was on.

8 Q. You mentioned two or three soldiers, as you say, who met you

9 outside the bus; that was before the gauntlet you told us about at Ovcara.

10 Were these two or three soldiers paramilitaries?

11 A. I've no idea which unit they belonged to, but those were no young

12 conscripts of the JNA.

13 Q. When you got off the bus and passed through that gauntlet, you

14 mentioned a lieutenant colonel who told you to get inside. Can you please

15 describe what this officer looked like, if you remember?

16 A. It's very difficult for me now to remember exactly. I know that

17 he wore the standard-issue officer's uniform, olive grey. He had some

18 sort of -- his jacket was not buttoned up to the top, and he wore an

19 officer's cap.

20 Q. What about your statement to the ICTY investigator? Did you not

21 tell him that you thought he was about 170 centimetres tall, rather plump,

22 with a roundish face?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. We're talking about this lieutenant colonel. Is this the same

25 person that your friend later took you to see when he wanted to get you

Page 3315

1 out of the hangar?

2 A. It was very dark by this time, and it was difficult to distinguish

3 any shapes. I would say that it was the same person, yes.

4 Q. You mentioned yesterday that you heard that the people guarding

5 you inside the hangar were military policemen. Did you ever hear that

6 these were military policemen belonging to the Gradovac [phoen] 18th

7 Motorised Brigade?

8 A. I have no idea about that brigade. I never heard anything about

9 this.

10 Q. You mentioned Mr. Emil Cakalic yesterday. Can you please tell us

11 if he came to the hangar before you arrived or after you arrived?

12 A. That was after I arrived. And as I said, there were people lined

13 up along the whole length of the wall, so he was told to stand on top of

14 that hay there.

15 Q. How far was he from the place where you were standing?

16 A. About five metres away, more or less.

17 Q. You mentioned events that took place in the central part of the

18 hangar, and in response to a question by my colleague you identified,

19 pointed to two people who had been beaten there, and you said for -- you

20 said one of their names and for the other one you said that you had heard

21 that that was his name. The two people that you mentioned yesterday,

22 Damjan Samardzic, called Veliki Bojler, and Kemal Saiti, do you know if

23 they were members of the ZNG?

24 A. No, I don't know about that. In regard to Mr. Samardzic, but

25 Kemal Saiti was somebody whom I had met in my neighbourhood at the

Page 3316

1 shelter. He had some certain duties there, but he was a plain civilian.

2 He didn't have a uniform.

3 Q. You mean he had duties within the ZNG?

4 A. I don't know that. I didn't really talk about that with him, so I

5 didn't really know specifically what his duties were.

6 Q. You mentioned another person whom you noticed at Ovcara. That was

7 Zarko Kojic. Was he a member of the ZNG?

8 A. Zarko Kojic also had some sort of function to secure the shelter,

9 and that's from where I know him. This was in my neighbourhood, the same

10 shelter where Kemal Saiti also was. This was also a person dressed in

11 civilian clothes without weapons. At the time he was a young civilian

12 clothes without weapons. At the time he was a young man, under 20.

13 Q. Could you please tell me when your friend took you out of the

14 hangar, were you the last of that group that you described to be taken out

15 of the hangar?

16 A. Yes, I was.

17 Q. At the time you were wearing a watch. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you perhaps look to see what the time was when you were coming

20 out of the hangar?

21 A. It was around 1700 hours. I'm not exactly sure, but that was

22 about the approximate time.

23 Q. Did you look at your watch and see what time it was when you left

24 Ovcara?

25 A. I don't remember exactly, but it was quite dark. You could hardly

Page 3317

1 see anything, and it was just a little bit before 1800 hours when we left

2 Ovcara.

3 Q. Did you tell the Tribunal investigator that you came to Velepromet

4 at about 1400 -- 1900 hours?

5 A. Yes. I think it was about 1900 hours when we came there.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] We have a problem with the question,

7 Your Honours. The answer is fine. The question was: Did you tell the

8 Tribunal investigator that you came to Velepromet at about 900 hours.

9 Answer: Yes --

10 THE INTERPRETER: 1900 hours, interpreter's correct.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Could you tell us how long did the trip take from Ovcara to

13 Modateks?

14 A. About an hour altogether, including stops and also deciding where

15 we would be going.

16 Q. During the time that you were at the hangar inside and outside of

17 it in Ovcara, did anybody leave the hangar?

18 A. No.

19 Q. While you were in front of the hangar, did any vehicle other than

20 the van standing at the distance that you mentioned come and stop in front

21 of the hangar?

22 A. No, I didn't see any vehicle.

23 Q. Could you please describe Mr. Cakalic, what he looked like when

24 you were standing in front of the hangar?

25 A. Mr. Cakalic was the person that I was at the hospital with that

Page 3318

1 last night I came to the barracks with him, and also I came to Ovcara with

2 Mr. Cakalic. He was wearing civilian clothes, I know that he had a dark

3 grey jacket, the colour of ice, it was a winter jacket, and he had some

4 sort of a cap. I don't know what it was like. I didn't notice what he

5 was wearing on the lower part of his body. He was wearing just plain

6 civilian clothes.

7 Q. That's not what I meant, but I didn't want to interrupt you so

8 that your voice wouldn't be heard through my microphone.

9 What I'm interested in is in view of the gauntlet that he had to

10 pass, what was Mr. Cakalic's face like, was he bloody, was he wearing

11 glasses?

12 A. He was not wearing glasses because the three soldiers in front of

13 the gauntlet who were waiting there and robbing people, one of them took

14 the glasses from him and he stamped on them on the concrete, so he had

15 lost his glasses. He was beaten. It's very hard right now to say exactly

16 how he was beaten and how much.

17 Q. What you told us about his glasses, was that something that you

18 saw?

19 A. Yes, I saw that.

20 Q. Where were you when you were watching that?

21 A. We stepped out of the bus, one behind the other and we reached the

22 soldiers. Once I was searched and once they had taken what they wanted, I

23 went through the gauntlet, and he stayed behind. He was the next in line,

24 and that was why he was the last one to enter the hangar. During the time

25 that we were together, while I was searched, one of those people who was

Page 3319

1 there took the glasses from his face and he threw them down on the ground

2 and stomped on them.

3 Q. Just to clarify, were you searched together or were you the one to

4 be searched first and then him?

5 A. I was searched first and then he was searched, but those two

6 people who were taking the things -- there were two people who were taking

7 the things from us. The third person was just looking on from the side,

8 and he was just doing some other things that needed to be done on top of

9 what these other two people were doing. So that is what this person did

10 to Mr. Cakalic's glasses.

11 Q. At that moment when they took his glasses, were you standing next

12 to him or were you on the concrete path in the gauntlet or near the

13 gauntlet?

14 A. I was on the concrete driveway, because that driveway connects to

15 the road. I was in front of him, and he was behind me. Not exactly

16 behind me, but a little bit to the side, so I was able to see what was

17 going on.

18 Q. While you were looking at that you were passing through the

19 gauntlet. Is that correct?

20 A. No. You couldn't really look at much, as you were going through

21 the gauntlet, but it was much easier during the time that we were being

22 searched and when things were being taken away. At that time, before the

23 gauntlet, it was much easier to see what was happening to us and around

24 us.

25 Q. I have another question about the hangar. As you were going

Page 3320

1 inside and you described that it was filling up from the door towards the

2 straw, or was it filling up from the straw to the door?

3 A. The hangar was filling up. First you would pass through the

4 gauntlet, then you would go right to the end of the hangar, then left to

5 the end of the hangar, and then again left to the end of the straw. That

6 is the way to orient yourself as you were coming into the hangar and

7 looking at it.

8 Q. Yes, that is quite clear. What I was asking was, was the start at

9 the door?

10 A. Yes, right at the door to the right side.

11 Q. You told us that you reached Velepromet, or you came to

12 Velepromet, did you know, did you maybe see or hear that Mr. Bingulac

13 [phoen], a member of the Vukovar TO, was in charge of Velepromet and he

14 refused to accept you?

15 A. I don't know that person, the person who waited for us at the

16 entrance to Velepromet and the person who told the driver that there was

17 no room for us, that he had to drive us to Modateks, the driver later said

18 that that was Mr. Bingulac.

19 Q. The people that you mentioned from Modateks, a grand-dad, Dada,

20 and the other person was Velimir Stankovic, were the two of them members

21 of the TO?

22 A. I've already said about Jezdimir Stankovic that the first time I

23 saw him was in the barracks and that he was wearing a JNA uniform.

24 Jezdimir Stankovic was not in the hallway where we were situated; he was

25 in the courtyard building which, according to what I know, was that

Page 3321

1 company's administrative building. The other elderly gentleman whose

2 nickname was Dada, grand-dad, was also wearing an olive-drab uniform, a

3 standard JNA uniform dating from my army days. He was there as a sort of

4 coordinator for all the persons who were placed in the hall of that

5 company.

6 Q. I'm interested in finding out, you explained the uniforms that

7 they were wearing. The uniforms that they were wearing that you used to

8 wear when you were in the JNA, were they different from the uniforms worn

9 by young JNA soldiers in Vukovar?

10 A. Well, I couldn't really tell you. The young soldiers were dressed

11 differently. Some were wearing the standard soldier's uniform, some were

12 wearing newer uniforms that are being worn now in the army. They were not

13 all dressed the same.

14 Q. Thank you. You said that you were taken to Velepromet again from

15 Modateks and that after that in the evening you were taken to the barracks

16 on the initiative of the captain that you mentioned. When you arrived at

17 the barracks, were you given food, water and cigarettes there?

18 A. Yes, we were.

19 Q. You said that there you were placed in a room with no windows.

20 Were you able to see if the other windows, the other rooms had windows

21 that were broken?

22 A. No, it was midnight, it was dark. It was a large room. I had the

23 impression that the room took up the whole of the building. The

24 window-panes were broken. Not -- not windows, all the window-panes were

25 broken, so it was quite cold in that room.

Page 3322

1 Q. Was this room part of the main barracks building?

2 A. I don't know that. It was a building belonging to the Vukovar

3 barracks compound. Exactly where it was located and what its position

4 was, was something that I really couldn't see because it was dark. We

5 were taken to that room directly from the buses, escorted by soldiers, and

6 we remained there until morning.

7 Q. Thank you. I would just like to go back to two details concerning

8 Ovcara. You told us yesterday that you heard while you were in the

9 vehicle that one of those who were escorting, that one of the soldiers

10 escorting you, his last name was Vuja [as interpreted]. Do you know if he

11 was of Croat ethnicity?

12 A. I don't know that young man. I think that the other soldier

13 addressed him as that. I didn't know the other soldier. There were two

14 soldiers in the vehicle in which we were returned to Vukovar. According

15 to what I know, that last name would belong to somebody who was not an

16 ethnic Croat. As far as I know, in Vukovar such names are by Ruthenians

17 in Vukovar.

18 Q. Just for the transcript, page 13, line 24, the last name is not

19 Vuja, but Guja.

20 A. Yes, Guja.

21 Q. The second detail concerns the beating that you described

22 yesterday when you were outside the hangar. You heard the beating, you

23 didn't see it, that's what you said. Were the doors of the hangar closed

24 when you heard that?

25 A. I don't know anymore, but it's possible that they were.

Page 3323

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we go into private

2 session, please? I have several questions to ask that might reveal the

3 identity of our witness.

4 JUDGE PARKER: We will, for that reason, go into private session

5 while you deal with those few questions, Mr. Vasic.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

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Page 3326

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir, for your answers.

24 Your Honours, I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Tapuskovic.

Page 3327

1 Cross-examined by Ms. Tapuskovic:

2 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, good

3 morning to all.

4 Q. Good morning, sir, P-031. My name is Mira Tapuskovic, and I am

5 one of Mr. Radic's Defence counsel. I am about to ask you a number of

6 questions, sir.

7 Yesterday we talked a great deal, some questions were asked by my

8 learned friend from the OTP, and some questions were asked by my learned

9 friend Mr. Vasic in relation to a large number of statements that you

10 apparently gave, some you signed and some you didn't. The source of

11 information to base our cross-examinations on for the Defence teams is

12 whatever the OTP gives us. We will have to clear up the issue of the

13 statements that you mentioned yesterday.

14 In answer to one of Mr. Vasic's questions yesterday, and

15 Mr. Vasic, as we know, is defence counsel for Mr. Mrksic, you said that

16 you had no idea how this question allegedly -- how this statement

17 allegedly given in Zagreb on the 27th of July, 1992 has now resurfaced,

18 and you said you did not remember giving that statement to begin with.

19 Would that be a fair statement?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You might perhaps remember two days ago being asked by my learned

22 friend Mr. Moore from the OTP a question to this effect: He asked you

23 whether you had had an opportunity to read that statement, and whether the

24 statement outlined the substance of your testimony live before this Trial

25 Chamber. Do you remember that?

Page 3328

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. When you talked to people from the OTP in preparation of your

3 testimony this document that seems to be awarded the status of a statement

4 that you made, was this shown to you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In the Croatian language?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This statement conditionally speaking - I hesitate to call it a

9 proper statement - has been served on us, both in Croatian and in English.

10 And your signature is nowhere to be seen on either copy. Can you please

11 tell me, sir, the version that you were shown by the OTP, did that version

12 bare a signature, that copy?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Was any explanation offered to you about this? How did the OTP

15 come into the possession of a document that was at the time taken to be

16 your statement?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you ask the question, perhaps? Did you ask them how they got

19 this statement with your name on it?

20 A. Not in a straightforward way like that. But I did say I wished to

21 know who the statement was given by, and who delivered the statement to

22 the OTP. I did ask your colleague yesterday, didn't I?

23 Q. Was this ever explained to you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. In answer to one of Mr. Vasic's questions you mentioned something

Page 3329

1 about going Budapest in July 1992, and you said you did not provide any

2 sort of written statement there.

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. You said you went there for an interview?

5 A. An interview took place, yes, that was all.

6 Q. You said that this was under the auspices of the Croatian

7 Committee for Missing Persons?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we go into

10 private session briefly for one question and one answer?

11 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

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23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

25 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3330

1 Q. Thank you. Sir, did the director of the hospital, Vesna Bosonac,

2 travel with you on that occasion?

3 A. Yes. She was there on the same business, but we weren't

4 travelling in the same car.

5 Q. Did you consult with Dr. Bosonac prior to your departure for

6 Budapest?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you confer with her once you had arrived in Budapest?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Can you please make a pause after my question? This is for your

11 own personal safety and also for the benefit of the interpreters, so that

12 my questions and your answers are adequately interpreted.

13 Yesterday you talked about Budapest. You said that on the Serbian

14 side the people present were Starcevic and Stankovic. Can you tell us who

15 represented Croatia?

16 A. Yes, I can. There was Dr. Ivan Simonovic who headed the

17 government commission. Further, there was Dr. Ivica Kostovic, Dr. Davor,

18 or possibly Dalibor, Strinovic. There was chief secretary of Croatia's

19 International -- or Croatia's Red Cross, a lady whose name I can't

20 remember, and I have no idea right now if anyone else was there too.

21 Q. Would you agree that there was a total of five members in the

22 Croatian delegation, discounting the witnesses?

23 A. I don't know. I didn't exactly count them.

24 Q. Those talks, because that's what you called them, talks, were

25 those bilateral or trilateral talks?

Page 3331

1 A. If I may just add something. Mr. Javorski, who was the president

2 of Croatia's Red Cross, as there too. Last name Javorski, the first name

3 escapes me.

4 As for the talks, the talks were lead by Mr. Simonovic on the

5 Croatian side, and Mr. Starcevic was representing what was then still

6 known as Yugoslavia. They determined the agenda, and they decided what

7 would be discussed. The Croatian side spoke and the Yugoslav side spoke

8 and observations were being made about certain occurrences that are also

9 the subject of this trial.

10 Q. I asked you about a third party being present, possibly. Do you

11 know, and were you perhaps aware of it then that there was a two-member

12 delegation of the International Red Cross present at those talks?

13 A. Yes, there were two gentlemen. They were foreigners, sitting at

14 the head of the table. As far as I remember, they did not get involved,

15 they did not take part in the discussion, but they were physically

16 present. I have no idea who exactly they were.

17 Q. The talks were being interpreted for their benefit, were they?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you please tell me who selected you and the other gentleman

20 you mentioned to go with Mrs. Bosonac and attend these talks in Budapest?

21 A. Who selected us is not something that I can say. I suppose we

22 were selected because we were victims and eye-witnesses. And we happened

23 to be staying in Zagreb at that time. I was personally informed by Vesna

24 Bosonac, she said that I had been asked by this committee to go and also

25 asked whether I was willing and prepared to go.

Page 3332

1 Q. Let's go back to you told us about your interview with

2 investigator Dzuro. Under some quite strange circumstances during your

3 talk with Mr. Dzuro, you said that you were disappointed about the way you

4 were treated by this commission in Budapest in your capacity as a witness.

5 Can you please tell us what the problem was in the way you were treated as

6 a witness in Budapest?

7 A. It's like this: Our Croatian side brought out the truth and

8 information about the suffering relating to the Vukovar Hospital. The

9 other side was using every opportunity to dispute that, asking for

10 additional explanation with proof that it was or wasn't like that. There

11 was a dominant feeling that some people were telling the truth and others

12 where not really believing that truth completely.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. The investigator Dzuro, regarding these notes, and it was more

17 that -- we're talking about notes, since you said that it was just an

18 interview, that he put some something in the notes that you did not say in

19 the introduction to these notes from June 1999. Other witnesses are

20 mentioned, witnesses, plural. Are you sure that you went -- you were the

21 only people who went to Budapest, you and the gentleman who you mentioned?

22 Are you sure about that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Am I wrong then in concluding that you actually provided one

25 official statement, that's the statement from April 1996, which you

Page 3333

1 signed, and you gave that to the same investigator, Mr. Dzuro. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. When I agreed to give a statement that I would acknowledge is my

4 own and which I would sign, Mr. Dzuro used a lot of the conversations from

5 that prior statement that I didn't sign as a way to just remind himself of

6 certain things.

7 Q. Now that you again talked with representatives of the Prosecutor's

8 office in preparation for this testimony, were you again shown that

9 official note, which is also in the same form of a statement, as well as

10 this statement which was signed by you? Were you shown both of those

11 things?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. They were shown to you in the Croatian language?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Please, could you make a pause between answer and question.

16 Did you manage to see, other than the introductory part, that

17 those two statements are practically identical?

18 A. I said yes, but the expressions and terms used are much more free,

19 or much improvised compared to the official statement that I gave.

20 Q. And you didn't have any remarks about this identicalness of these

21 two statements, even though you said that you refused to sign it because

22 there were the stories there were a little bit elaborated or more freely

23 interpreted?

24 A. Yes, that is what I just said. And if I may add, I did not refuse

25 to sign. We agreed at the start of our interview that that would not be

Page 3334

1 an official statement that I would sign or that it would be a statement

2 with which I would take part in any kind of evidentiary proceeding.

3 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you said that you did not provide a

4 statement to any of the Croat organs, I'm coming back again to that. Is

5 that correct?

6 A. No, not a written statement.

7 Q. Did you talk with any representatives of the Croatian government?

8 A. I don't know if there were representatives of the Croatian

9 government or not. I think one time they were, but there were several

10 such interviews or conversations where we tried to help someone to gain

11 more insight into exactly what happened in the Vukovar Hospital.

12 Q. Do you know that those conversations of your stories, statements

13 were ever part of any kind of official report of any international

14 organisation?

15 A. I don't know that, I never saw that. And nobody showed me

16 anything like that.

17 Q. I will be more specific now. Did you ever hear that the UN expert

18 commission used information of the health ministry of Croatia, the

19 information department and in its report on the Vukovar Hospital and the

20 Ovcara mass grave site in 1993 mentioned you as a witness and as a source

21 of information based on which the report was drafted.

22 A. No.

23 Q. The day before, in response to the Prosecutor's questions, you

24 said that -- or you confirmed that you took a small plastic package with

25 you, where all of your statements were. Do you remember that?

Page 3335

1 A. Could you please repeat that?

2 Q. The day before, in answer to a question by my learned friend

3 Mr. Moore, you said that you had with you a plastic envelope, case, cover,

4 where you keep all your statements.

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Could you please tell us how many of your statements exactly are

7 there in that plastic sleeve?

8 A. My statements number 1, number 2, number 3 and number 3A are in

9 that sleeve. That's the addendum that Mr. Dzuro made concerning the

10 reasons why I did not appear before this Tribunal.

11 Q. And you gave those statements -- and you brought them in agreement

12 with the Prosecutor during your preparation for this testimony?

13 A. Yes. They were -- they are sorted according to the time period

14 when they were compiled.

15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would this perhaps

16 be an appropriate moment to take a break? Because of the witness.

17 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated].

18 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour, I will

19 continue.

20 Q. Now we are going to focus on the events from 1991. Could you

21 please tell us, since the wounded and the ill persons were moved in the

22 basement of the shelter, could you please tell us where you were working?

23 I would just like to remind you, because you are under protective

24 measures, to -- not to tell us exactly what you were doing, but just to

25 tell us where the premises were where you happened to be.

Page 3336

1 A. The premises were separate from the hospital complex. They were

2 separated by a city street. And there were three or four buildings there.

3 They were all just single-storey buildings.

4 Q. When you came to the hospital on the 19th in the early morning, at

5 about 9.00 in the morning Vesna Bosonac came up to you. Is that correct?

6 A. Not to me, but to all of us who happened to be gathered in the

7 hospital entrance-hall. Like I said in the beginning, there was a lot of

8 staff who had come from the shelter in my neighbourhood and also many from

9 the surrounding buildings around the hospital.

10 Q. And she told you then that you were not supposed to have come to

11 the hospital. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And regardless of the fact that she told you where you were

14 supposed to gather, you remained in the hospital?

15 A. Yes. I stayed at the hospital because I had already been placed

16 on the list of people to -- meant to leave Vukovar and also I was a part

17 of that medical institution.

18 Q. Did you see that list?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You knew Vesna Bosonac personally?

21 A. As a physician, yes. Also as a -- the director who was acting

22 director in July 1991.

23 Q. Did you try to see if your name was really on that list for

24 evacuation? Did you talk with her about that?

25 A. No, I didn't really talk to her on that day.

Page 3337

1 Q. But you said that you spoke with her on the 19th in the morning?

2 A. No, I did not speak to her. She addressed us, and she said

3 something about us having or not having to be at the hospital and then she

4 said that all the civilians would, in the course of the day, be taken to

5 the Velepromet collection point.

6 Q. Please, sir, could you speak a little bit more slowly, and could

7 you make a pause between my questions and your answers, because we are

8 overlapping.

9 A. Thank you very much.

10 Q. Could you please tell us whether you were told at the time, or

11 whether that person had perhaps told you who had come to the shelter where

12 you were whose name you don't know, who was organising the evacuation of

13 the Vukovar population or, rather, the sick persons from the hospital?

14 A. No, I did not have any such conversation.

15 Q. Could you please tell me who told you that you and your wife may

16 stay at the X-ray room?

17 A. My acquaintances, my friends, my colleagues, who were employed at

18 the hospital.

19 Q. When were you allowed to do this, because it was already known on

20 that day that the evacuation would not proceed, that you would stay at the

21 hospital?

22 A. Well, I cannot really tell you specifically, but just before

23 nightfall we were looking for a place in the hospital where we could spend

24 the night.

25 Q. The day before you told us that the family members of the medical

Page 3338

1 staff as well as aides were permitted to stay in the hospital. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please tell us who approved this?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Do you know when this was approved?

7 A. No.

8 Q. When you came to the X-ray room with your wife and with all your

9 things, were there any patients in the X-ray room?

10 A. No. This was a preparatory room where people were prepared for

11 X-rays, using the appropriate machinery.

12 Q. During the examination-in-chief you said that you knew that the

13 father-in-law and mother-in-law of the director, Mrs. Bosonac, were

14 staying at the hospital?

15 A. That evening on the 19th until the morning on the 20th of

16 November, yes, they were there.

17 Q. You said that Emil Cakalic was also there with his wife?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Also the family of the Ivankovic X-ray technician?

20 A. Yes, and also the radiology technician.

21 Q. The wife -- the husband of Beba, the head nurse, was also at the

22 hospital, Mr. Mihajl Kolesar?

23 A. I don't know that. He probably -- no, not probably, he was

24 definitely there, but I don't know where he was staying, but he went

25 through exactly the same thing that I did through the barracks.

Page 3339

1 Q. There was also this man who was 17 years old, Tomislav

2 Baumgertner.

3 A. Yes. He was there somewhere with his mother, but I don't know in

4 which room he was in.

5 Q. There were Bucko, Mara and Irinej as well? You know her?

6 A. Yes, I know Bucko, Mara. I know her husband slightly from seeing

7 him around town. Mara Bucko was a member of staff of the medical centre.

8 Q. Do you know that the mother-in-law of Dr. Njavro was also at the

9 hospital?

10 A. No. This is the first time that I'm hearing about that question.

11 Q. Do you know Tomislav Selibaj?

12 A. No, I don't know who Tomislav Selibaj is.

13 Q. Can you please tell us about some other family members of

14 employees whom you saw on the 19th or about whom you knew that they were

15 staying in the hospital even before that?

16 A. Well, I already said that the last eight or ten days I was no

17 longer staying at the hospital because of the situation. Because of the

18 war, it was dangerous to travel anywhere at that time. I don't know about

19 these families that were allegedly staying there. It was probably during

20 that period when I wasn't staying there, so I don't know anything about

21 that, and I couldn't really tell you anything specific about that.

22 Q. You said yesterday that you saw Martin Dosen lying down in the

23 corridor between the orthopaedics and the urology departments?

24 A. Yes, between those two specialist wards.

25 Q. Would you agree with me if I conclude that the doctors, the

Page 3340

1 medical staff and many members of their families were all accommodated, in

2 the rooms in the various shelter rooms, while the wounded and the sick

3 persons were all placed in corridors?

4 A. Well, I don't have to agree or disagree. It's possible that it

5 was that way, but I really don't know whether it was or not.

6 Q. Thank you. You mentioned Bogdan Kuzmic as having entered the

7 X-ray room and that he was looking for some people with two soldiers. Is

8 that correct?

9 A. He was specifically looking for Milicko Vukovic and Zeljko

10 Batarelo.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you please describe those two soldiers who were

12 with him?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Please don't interrupt. It's for your own safety.

15 Were they wearing uniforms?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did they have weapons? Did you see that?

18 A. Yes, the two soldiers were carrying weapons.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps this is a convenient time, is it,

21 Ms. Tapuskovic?

22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, I think

23 that it is.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Because of a commitment during the break we will

25 take a little longer than usual time and resume at about five minutes to

Page 3341

1 the hour.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Tapuskovic.

5 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Sir, can we continue?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you very much. You said today in answer to one of my

9 learned friend Vasic's questions something about some persons. I hope we

10 don't need to go into private session. We will not be mentioning their

11 names, but you will remember who I am talking about. You said that this

12 person was not a member of the ZNG, but rather a member of the Croatian

13 army.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you please tell me when the Croatian army was established? Do

16 you know that?

17 A. I don't.

18 Q. Again I must warn you to make a pause, wait for the interpreter to

19 stop interpreting my question, and then answer, please.

20 A. Thank you.

21 Q. Were you at this time a reserve officer of the Croatian army or a

22 reserve officer of the JNA?

23 A. Neither.

24 Q. Both today and yesterday, yesterday this is on page 28 of the

25 transcript, line 14, you mentioned Croatian soldiers who were in charge of

Page 3342

1 the hospital security. Can you please say how many such soldiers were

2 there providing security for the hospital?

3 A. I can't give you the exact number. I didn't know. However, as

4 far as I was able to see those were for the most part soldiers standing at

5 the hospital entrances. Around the building itself.

6 Q. How many entrances did the hospital have?

7 A. The main entrance and across the way from there there was another

8 one. Outside that entrance was yet another one through which you could

9 reach the women's ward, and then there was another door to the pharmacy

10 and the pathology ward. From the front side, and there were several steps

11 there on the way in, there were no soldiers guarding that particular

12 entrance.

13 Q. Again, you have used the term "soldiers" while saying that they

14 were not at that particular door. What about the security detail? Did it

15 comprise people who, as you say, were Croatian soldiers, members of the

16 Croatian army?

17 A. I don't know who had them deployed there, or under whose command

18 they were. I never learned, I never talked to any one of those soldiers

19 about it. They were wearing uniforms and they belonged to the Croatian

20 army.

21 Q. Were they armed?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did they stand guard there day and night, around the clock?

24 A. I can tell you that they were there during day-time. I don't know

25 about night-time.

Page 3343

1 Q. Can you please try to describe the uniforms they had, what colour,

2 what sort of insignia?

3 A. I'm afraid I can't describe the uniforms. I'm not sure that my

4 description would be entirely accurate, as my memory is no longer as fresh

5 as it should be.

6 Q. Can you please tell us if they were black, olive-drab, blue?

7 A. All of them were the military colour, olive-drab.

8 Q. Thank you. Let us please go back to the part where you told us

9 about the hospital, about you getting on that bus and about when you were

10 asked to show your IDs. Can you please list all the other hospital

11 employees who had valid IDs and who got off the bus.

12 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] For this reason, because we are

13 about to name names, can we please go into private session, briefly?

14 JUDGE PARKER: Private session.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3344

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

6 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Sir, can you specify at what time exactly the buses left the

8 hospital for the barracks, the Vukovar barracks?

9 A. It took quite a while, but if I remember correctly that was about

10 10.00 a.m.

11 Q. You said that at this time there were two soldiers on the bus with

12 you, and one lieutenant. Would that be right?

13 A. Two soldiers with the driver, the bus driver. However, when and

14 how the lieutenant got in, I didn't see, myself. When we reached the

15 barracks the lieutenant got off the bus and that was when I first laid

16 eyes on him.

17 Q. Can you please describe him for us?

18 A. I don't think I could. I was towards the rear of the bus, and he

19 got off the front door.

20 Q. Can you not even describe his uniform for us?

21 A. Not in a detailed fashion.

22 Q. You told us a great deal about those two groups of persons who

23 surrounded the buses in the yard of the barracks. Can you tell us about

24 those two groups, one of which you referred to as the aggressive group,

25 the other group being reservists, or possibly TO members? At any point in

Page 3345

1 time during your time in the barracks yard were those two groups

2 communicating mutually?

3 A. I didn't see them communicating, but I don't think so. I don't

4 think they were.

5 Q. When the group comprising aggressive persons headed for -- towards

6 the sixth bus which turned up about half an hour after you got there, did

7 they thereupon go to your buses, the buses that you were on?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you see an officer there who perhaps issued an order for the

10 buses to get going?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know what happened to that sixth bus? Did that bus join

13 you on the way out?

14 A. I didn't see that at the time. I do know now, because I learned

15 after the war upon my return to Zagreb, that the sixth bus was never seen

16 again and nothing is known of the fate of the prisoners who were on that

17 sixth bus.

18 Q. Those two soldiers who you mentioned were with you on the bus and

19 the lieutenant, did they continue the journey with you?

20 A. Those two soldiers never got off the bus at all and they remained

21 with us throughout, all the way to Ovcara. I don't know about the

22 lieutenant. I don't remember. I didn't see him.

23 Q. Thank you. When you arrived outside the hangar at Ovcara, you say

24 the wounded were made to run the gauntlet too, persons who were ill,

25 hospital employees as well as Croatian soldiers who had been in charge of

Page 3346

1 the hospital security. Is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Among those persons, you saw members of the army securing the

4 hospital. Can you give us an approximate number, how many of them were

5 there?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Can you say what the distance was between the two -- the sides of

8 the gauntlet along that concrete driveway leading from the road to the

9 hangar building?

10 THE REGISTRAR: Could Defence counsel turn off the microphone,

11 please?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was approximately the same width

13 as the entrance door to the hangar.

14 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Can you tell us how wide the door is? We can hardly be expected

16 to use the sketches you made yesterday to assess that.

17 A. I don't know. I didn't take any measurements. But the door is

18 wide enough for a piece of agricultural machinery to be introduced through

19 it into the hangar.

20 Q. Yesterday you described for us what happened to Kemal and Damjan.

21 According to your story's chronological sequence, the way you explained

22 this to us, my conclusion was you were facing the wall at this point in

23 time. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How then were you able to see what was going on with Kemal and

Page 3347

1 later on with Damjan if indeed you were facing the wall?

2 A. I've explained this. I said that I stole a glance out of the

3 corner of my eye and that I could see very clearly what was happening to

4 Kemal. As for Mr. Samardzic, I couldn't see as clearly, but my fellow

5 victims told me that he had met the same fate as Kemal before him. The

6 distance between Kemal and myself was very small.

7 Q. Can you please explain what you said about the details yesterday?

8 They were insufficient details, apparently. What exactly was the distance

9 between Kemal and yourself and what do you mean by stealing a glance?

10 A. How I might explain that to you? You just cast a sideways look,

11 and your angle of vision expands at that moment. There were no soldiers

12 standing behind my back, not near enough anyway, so I was free to turn my

13 head just slightly and see what was going on.

14 Q. Thank you. When you came out of the hangar and when you were

15 waiting in front of the hangar with the others, you said that you heard a

16 whistle, the sound of a whistle blowing coming from the hangar. Is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did that sound mean to you at that point?

20 A. It didn't mean anything to me, but it explained the following: At

21 the sound of the whistle some of these paramilitary soldiers were leaving

22 the hangar and the others were coming in. The conclusion was that they

23 were conducting beatings because you could hear the sounds, and also the

24 wails of the prisoners.

25 Q. Yesterday you said that to you the whistle signified a shift in

Page 3348

1 the beatings, but that was a conclusion, you didn't see that. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, that's exactly as I said. One group was coming into the

4 hangar and the other one was leaving the hangar, meaning that there was a

5 shift occurring with the beatings.

6 Q. It meant only a shift; one group of people was coming in and

7 another group was leaving?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In the statement that you signed you said that you were informed

10 that you wanted to go to Croatia because the transport, the evacuation was

11 supposed to be conducted in two different ways. Those who came to the

12 hospital would go to Croatia, and those who came to Velepromet would go to

13 Serbia. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes. A small correction, not those who went to Velepromet. There

15 was a division there also according to the ethnic membership. It depended

16 on who was a member of what ethnic group, and where they would go.

17 Q. When was the first time that you heard about the option that those

18 who would be going to Serbia would go to Sid?

19 A. A few days before the fall. I said in my explanation that we were

20 already in the shelter and that we had already made groups in the shelter

21 and made lists of who would go in what bus. I assume that those who had

22 slightly more power there had certain information already about the

23 pending end of the occupation of Vukovar, that there would be an

24 evacuation according to what the population chose. It was thought that it

25 would be impossible to continue life in the destroyed Vukovar and that it

Page 3349

1 would be necessary to leave.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 A. All those who were leaving Vukovar, wherever they were going, had

6 to go through Sid. They would even go as far as Sremska Mitrovica, and

7 then they would come back from Sremska Mitrovica, and then they would go

8 to Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, wherever they wanted to go. So not thinking

9 of the worst that would happen, we felt that we would be leaving the

10 travail of Vukovar, and we would be going to some better place and stop

11 briefly at a place where we then could decide to go, to a better place.

12 Q. Thank you very much for explaining the route that you took. You

13 mentioned Dzo and how one of the officers told him that he would guarantee

14 your security as well as the security of all those who left the hangar.

15 Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you please tell me whether Dzo went with you in that jeep

18 towards Vukovar?

19 A. He was next to the jeep before we left, and he told us to wait at

20 Velepromet until the following day at noon. If he didn't arrive by 12.00,

21 we were free and we should catch the first available bus to Sid. I was

22 even thinking that he was perhaps riding in the front with the driver and

23 Mr. Cakalic, but Mr. Cakalic told me that he wasn't, that it was actually

24 just one of the regular soldiers, just like the two soldiers who were

25 escorting us. After that day I never saw Mr. Ivankovic again.

Page 3350

1 Q. Yesterday you talked about Dzo Ivankovic as a major in the

2 White Eagles?

3 A. That is how he introduced himself to us.

4 Q. Did you see any insignia on him?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Yesterday when you were describing the events in the hangar and in

7 the front of the hangar you mentioned a lot of ranks, majors, lieutenants,

8 lieutenant colonels. Did you manage to check the epaulets on those people

9 and did that correspond to how certain people who were present addressed

10 those people?

11 A. No. They were talking amongst themselves, these soldiers, and I

12 didn't have the opportunity to see the officers.

13 Q. When you mentioned the lieutenant who came up to the tractor to be

14 able to see better because the headlights of the tractor were on, can you

15 explain that a little better?

16 A. I'm sorry, I didn't mention any lieutenants, I would like to

17 correct you. Mr. Ivankovic told us I have to take you inside near the

18 tractor to the major, and then he talked to this major and gave the major

19 the lists he had made of all of us who had been taken out of the hangar.

20 The major signed the list and allowed him to take us back after making the

21 remark that you mentioned. I was not able to see the officer because

22 Mr. Ivankovic and soldiers were standing in the way, but he was standing

23 near the front right headlight, and he was there so that he could read the

24 list.

25 Q. Thank you very much. I because wanted a description of him. I'm

Page 3351

1 sorry if I made a mistake in his rank, but we both understand each other

2 very well as regards the actual person I'm talking about, and I thank you

3 for your assistance.

4 I have another question. You said that a total of seven of you

5 came out of the hangar who were supposed to be returned to Vukovar. Is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What would you say if I were to tell you that the report of the UN

9 expert commission dating from 1993, which I mentioned before to you,

10 states that the total number actually was 10 people?

11 A. I wouldn't say anything, because I don't know about that piece of

12 information. However, I do have information that one young man was

13 brought out who was 16 years old, somebody took him out in a similar way,

14 but he was brought back inside when it was discovered that his father was

15 in the Croatian army. This was -- actually, this meant that in my group

16 where I was, there were actually eight people. If anybody said 10, then

17 they are probably counting the soldier who jumped out of the

18 tractor-trailer on the way from the hangar to the execution location and

19 probably the soldier who was in Belgrade for a trial who said that, first

20 of all, he was sent from Bjelovar as a military police officer to the

21 Yugoslav People's Army, then that he escaped to the Croatian side.

22 Q. We need to cut the answers short, because we have to take into

23 account the time that we have at our disposal, so I would like you to

24 stick to the question. All I asked you was that would you allow for the

25 possibility that there were more people, that there were 10 people as it

Page 3352

1 is stated in the official report of the United Nations? Your answer to

2 that was no, so I thank you for your answer.

3 When you mentioned the "stolarija" room, the carpentry room, the

4 carpenter's room, when was the first time that you heard the term "death

5 room"?

6 A. The first time I heard it was when I was in that room. People who

7 were in that room before me were talking about it.

8 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have just one

9 more question for this witness.

10 Q. You came to Sremska Mitrovica where you were interrogated. Is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you give a statement there?

14 A. Yes, I did, one written statement.

15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

16 Honours. I have no further questions for this witness.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Tapuskovic.

18 Mr. Lukic.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please.

20 Good day, Your Honours, good day to everyone in these proceedings.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

22 Q. Sir, His Honour, the Presiding Judge Parker already said my name.

23 I am attorney Novak Lukic, and I am representing Mr. Veselin Sljivancanin

24 and I will be putting some questions to you now.

25 Could you please pay attention to the break that we need to make,

Page 3353

1 the pause between question and answer, not only because of the

2 interpreters, but also because of the security measures, so please pause

3 before you begin answering my question.

4 The first topic that I would like to ask you about concerns some

5 of the answers that gave to Ms. Tapuskovic, and which I also read in your

6 statement. And you repeated the statement also from your statement

7 concerning your conversation with Dr. Bosonac on the 19th when you arrived

8 at the hospital. Today I actually heard you say that she addressed you.

9 When you came you repeated what you already stated previously in your

10 statement, how she told you that you should not have come there. I assume

11 that she was addressing the group of the citizens who happened to be at

12 the hospital, but that you should have gone to the Velepromet location.

13 Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. To be more specific, this was around 9.00 a.m. on the 19th of

16 November. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes. Approximately it was after 9.00, but before 10.00, so

18 between 9.00 and 10.00 a.m.

19 Q. She personally addressed the group of citizens where you also

20 happened to be?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. Did she tell you who should go to Velepromet and why, why to

23 Velepromet?

24 A. She said that only those who had some -- something to do with the

25 hospital could stay in the hospital. All other citizens, according to the

Page 3354

1 instructions that she had, were supposed to go to the Velepromet

2 collection point.

3 Q. I assume that during the day you were inside the hospital and

4 outside. I don't want to put anything to you, but did you proceed to the

5 X-ray room immediately, or did you spend sometime during the day inside

6 the hospital?

7 A. I don't remember exactly the time-frame anymore, but I moved

8 around in that area where we were, we were talking amongst ourselves, the

9 people who knew each other. And then in the afternoon or towards evening

10 I tried to find a spot where we could spend the night. So later when it

11 was evening, when it was dark, I came to the room where I actually did

12 spend the night.

13 Q. Does the name Zeljka Zgonjanin mean anything to you?

14 A. I know of Zeljka Zgonjanin. I know her and I know who she was

15 after the war.

16 Q. Do you have any information that she or anyone else was compiling

17 a list of the people who were supposed to move to Velepromet? I'm talking

18 about the civilians now.

19 A. No, I don't anything about that.

20 Q. Do you know whether those people were actually transferred to

21 Velepromet during the day, afternoon or that evening?

22 A. Yes, they were.

23 Q. Thank you. And according to you, these are the people who

24 Dr. Bosonac told that morning that they were supposed to go to Velepromet.

25 Is that correct?

Page 3355

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. You've already answered a question that actually

3 connects to the next topic. You actually said that it was already dark

4 when you arrived at that room where you spent the night, the room next to

5 the X-ray room, and you mentioned who was with you that night.

6 My question is as follows: During that evening from the point

7 when you entered the X-ray room until the morning when you left the room,

8 did you, in that period, leave the room at all?

9 A. At one point I did. I went to the shelter connected to the

10 hospital to get some water. I had a bottle with me. On my way there, I

11 met a cleaning lady who had worked at the hospital for many years, and I

12 asked her if there was anything to eat anywhere, because at the shelter

13 where I was for two days before that we were not given anything to eat.

14 In those 15 or 20 minutes -- or after 15 or 20 minutes I returned to the

15 X-ray room again, and then I didn't leave it again.

16 Q. Thank you. You also said that Mr. Kuzmic entered that room at

17 about 9.00 p.m., approximately?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. Do you remember if any of the people who were with you in that

20 room left the room during the evening or night?

21 A. All I can recall is that Mr. Milicko Vukovic went out because he

22 was an X-ray technician or a radiology technician. He was working there,

23 so he had contacts with the other staff who were working in the X-ray

24 section.

25 Q. Thank you. Now we're going to move to a different topic, and what

Page 3356

1 I'm most interested in are the events on the 21st of November, 1991.

2 You described that in the morning they came into the room and told

3 everyone to leave the room and, as you have said, you went towards the

4 exit. What I'm interested in is something else. When you talked about

5 all of those people who had spent the night of the 20th with you at the

6 hospital, you mentioned some names of doctors. What happened to them at

7 the point in time when you left the room?

8 A. There were two ways that those who were found in the hospital were

9 treated. There were those persons calling upon us to leave the hospital.

10 I didn't see them. I can't say they were military men or civilians. I

11 just heard voices calling upon us to leave the hospital. Then the medical

12 staff had been told to go to the surgery unit and the plaster room. Where

13 plaster-casts were made for those injured. All the medical staff were

14 told to assemble there to see what they would do next and in order to

15 prepare for the evacuation. All those who were non-medical staff who were

16 found in those rooms were told to leave the hospital and go out to the

17 hospital yard.

18 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, might I just make one small interruption

19 and suggestion, not a criticism at all. My learned friend uses the

20 phrase "about the night of the 20th" on page 47, line 22. Clearly what's

21 being spoken about is the night, I think, of the 19th, morning of

22 the 20th. Perhaps that should be amended, if that exactly is what's being

23 said, so that when people look back at the evidence in the passage of time

24 we know exactly what we're talking about.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, does Mr. Moore correctly understand your

Page 3357

1 intended question?

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm thankful for this sort of

3 cooperation from the OTP. Yes, that is what we're talking about, and I

4 believe the witness has understood me. It might be an error in the

5 transcript. We were talking about the night between the 19th and the

6 20th of November, 1991. Now we're talking about what happened on the

7 morning of the 20th of November, 1991.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Since you have now explained this, there is one thing I want to

12 know about this topic. We've heard testimony about this before this

13 Tribunal. You headed for the door once the doctors and the medical staff

14 had been told to the plaster room for a meeting. Is that right?

15 A. As I passed that room, there were many medical workers in the room

16 and outside the room assembled, which means that most of them had arrived

17 there before I even started leaving the room that I was in in order to

18 head for the hospital exit.

19 Q. Can you specify how long it took you to get from the x-ray room to

20 the place where you were frisked or searched?

21 A. It didn't take long. It's a corridor taking you straight to the

22 auxiliary exit. It's as long as the building is wide. So it should be

23 about 30 metres, I suppose.

24 Q. We're familiar with the general layout, but what about the time

25 line? Was it five minutes, ten, two?

Page 3358

1 A. No, no. No way. Might have taken about two or three minutes.

2 It's a very short stretch.

3 Q. Thank you. My next question: Where were you, the men, separated

4 from the women and children? Was it inside the building in the corridor,

5 or outside the building?

6 A. It was at the very exit. It was under that awning that was there,

7 the covered area where an ambulance brings an injured person in order to

8 protect that person from rain or snow. It was right there that this was

9 done.

10 Q. You said this was done by young soldiers, young JNA soldiers,

11 regular soldiers, conscripts?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was this the same place where the men were frisked or searched or

14 was it outside in the street?

15 A. No, it wasn't done right there. Those of us, the men who were

16 supposed to have left, having passed the exit and proceed towards

17 Gunduliceva Street, we were lined up near the exit leading to

18 Gunduliceva Street. There is a slight slope or incline there, which is

19 closed off by a low wall along which we were made to line up, and that's

20 where we were searched, but that was a little later.

21 Q. This last part of your answer suggests that the search took place

22 a little later. From the point in time when you were separated from your

23 wives and families to the point in time when you were frisked or searched,

24 how long do you think?

25 A. I would find it very difficult to be specific, but it was a very

Page 3359

1 short time.

2 Q. Another thing that I find to be substantial, when a person was

3 searched, were they dispatched to the buses immediately, or did you remain

4 there to stand in line before you were told to go?

5 A. We stayed right there where we were and then an order would be

6 given for us to go to the buses and that's when we went.

7 Q. That was my understanding too. You said it was the lieutenant who

8 gave the order, right?

9 A. What I said is I knew that the lieutenant was in charge of

10 monitoring the search, the frisking, and in charge of monitoring the

11 process whereby people were being placed on those buses. I did not

12 personally hear whether he was the one who issued the order.

13 Q. What I said I assumed based on your statement. I assume you have

14 a copy in front of you, the one dated April 1996. If you could please

15 open that statement, page 4 of the B/C/S.

16 [In English] We are now on page 4 of English version of the

17 statement.

18 [Interpretation] Page 4, if you could please read the third

19 passage, starting with the following sentence: "There was an officer

20 there wearing JNA uniform." Read slowly for the transcript, please.

21 A. You said page 4, right?

22 Q. Yes, third passage. "I heard that Major Sljivancanin," that's how

23 it begins. And then: "There was an officer there."

24 Can you see that portion? "There was an officer in a JNA

25 uniform."

Page 3360

1 A. I can't seem to be able to find that.

2 Sorry, you said the April statement? Which one is that supposed to

3 be?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. This is the statement that you signed. That's the one I wish to

7 discuss.

8 A. Yes. And the one I was looking at was statement number 2, and

9 that's why I was unable to find this.

10 Q. Page 4, third passage, third sentence. "There was an officer" and

11 so on, if you could please read that out to us.

12 A. "There was an officer in a JNA uniform. I heard later that he was

13 a lieutenant who was in charge of searching people and taking us over to

14 the buses."

15 Yes, that's precisely what I said, isn't it?

16 Q. The next one too, please.

17 A. "This officer ordered us to get onto the buses. We didn't just go

18 of our own accord. He was probably in charge and he was probably the one

19 who ordered this."

20 That's the overall meaning of this entire occurrence.

21 Q. My question while ago was in order to refresh your memory and

22 that's what I'm putting to you now by using this statement that you gave

23 in 1996. I suppose your memory of events was much fresher back then.

24 Do you remember that this man gave orders for you to go to the

25 buses? That's my question.

Page 3361

1 A. I don't remember that. I didn't hear that. What I stated was

2 that there was an officer there that probably saw this or heard this from

3 other people, and the conclusion was that he was in charge of the search

4 and of sending prisoners to the buses.

5 Q. But in your 1996 statement you didn't state that you heard this.

6 You stated explicitly that this was something that you had seen.

7 A. It's written like that, but you must know that I wasn't the one

8 that was actually taking the statement.

9 Q. Thank you. I suppose that, too, is a kind of an answer.

10 After the search, how long did you remain there, standing in the

11 yard before you eventually got onto the buses?

12 A. Until about 9.00.

13 Q. Let's try to be specific about this. Can you please tell us when

14 the search began?

15 A. It was about 8.00 that we were called upon to leave the hospital

16 and come out. Then we were separated and lined up and that took some time

17 too. After we remained there standing waiting to see what would happen

18 and then they started searching us, but it's very difficult to set a

19 specific time line for all these events. It took until about 9.00, the

20 whole thing was over at about 9.00, and -- well, the last group at least

21 of which I was a part, we were placed onto that bus.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now that we're speaking about this

23 topic, I would like to ask the registry to show the witness two

24 photographs. I think it will be easier for all of us to deal with

25 photographs rather than sketches or maps.

Page 3362

1 Q. But Witness, please, if you find it difficult to identify anything

2 on these -- in these photographs, I will not be asking you to be make any

3 further statements about them.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown a

5 photograph from the 65 ter exhibit list. The number is 224 -- the

6 photograph number is 0053-1260.

7 Q. We have to wait a little because it will probably take a little

8 time before the photograph can be shown.

9 Can you see this photograph, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recognise anything in the photograph?

12 A. I recognise the hospital building; that's what I can see in the

13 photograph. The one that we're talking about, that is.

14 Q. Can you see in this photograph the exit that you took to -- in

15 order to leave the hospital and outside which you were frisked?

16 A. You can see it very clearly, it's on the left-hand side of the

17 photograph, you can see this short slope descending from the yard to the

18 auxiliary exit at the back of the hospital leading into the surgery ward.

19 You can even see this covered area, the awning that I referred to a while

20 ago. It's a small roof, actually.

21 Q. Fantastic. I think you will be even gladder to see the next

22 photograph. But let's stick to this one for the time being.

23 If you look at this photograph, can you see where the buses were

24 parked on Gunduliceva Street?

25 A. Yes. You can't see this particular portion of the road, but you

Page 3363

1 can see very clearly the exit itself. There is a small reception room of

2 sorts there. And you can see the hospital fence on the right-hand side

3 towards the east, as it were. You can see another outbuilding that we

4 called the gas building where the hospital's gas supply was stored that

5 was used for the variety of purposes.

6 Q. I will take advantage of your familiarity with this photograph in

7 order for you to mark some things, so that all of us who are part of this

8 trial are much clearer about what the photograph represents in the further

9 course of the proceedings.

10 Can you please use an arrow, or use the letter A to mark the spot

11 where you were standing when you had just left the hospital, the place

12 where you were frisked?

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. If you could please put a letter A there. I can't see too

15 clearly. And please draw a circle around it, if you can.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. In the next photograph we'll try to be more precise. Does this

18 mean that you were standing outside this wall at the entrance to the yard

19 or were you still inside the tunnel, as it were?

20 A. Still inside the tunnel.

21 Q. Could you please use an arrow to mark the direction in which you

22 moved out of the hospital?

23 A. The auxiliary exit, you mean.

24 Q. Yes, on your way to the buses.

25 A. So from where I was standing.

Page 3364

1 Q. Can you please mark the spot where the buses were?

2 A. No, there's no room here. But some of the buses were to the left

3 of the exit, and some were parked to the right of the exit.

4 Q. Can you please put a letter B there where you say the buses were?

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, the photograph doesn't show the roadway.

6 The buses where on the roadway. The witness has pointed out that the

7 hospital fence can be seen and the roadway is below that. So we will have

8 to imagine.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I assume that we all understand the layout now. We can assume

11 that the street where the buses were parked is in the lower part of the

12 photograph, right?

13 A. Yes, there is a pavement there, there's a meadow, and then the

14 road. If I were to draw that in this photograph, I would have to draw it

15 on -- over one of the roofs or the trees that are in the photograph.

16 Q. Can you please tell us if we can see in this photograph the spot

17 where you saw Martin Dosen lying on the ground?

18 A. He was lying -- where you see the cars, it's just before this

19 building that I refer to as the gas building. It's between the curved

20 pavement and the road that he was lying.

21 Q. Can I assume that this is the spot right behind this tree in the

22 lower right corner of the photograph?

23 A. If you look from the hospital exit on the right-hand side -- you

24 have the two roofs and you have the trees. It's right behind the second

25 and the third one, the trees. I see that there are cars parked there.

Page 3365

1 Sort of. Or perhaps sheltered from view by what appears to be the roof of

2 a building across the way or something. It's both red and black and

3 there's some sort of a triangle there.

4 Q. Can you place an arrow in that direction if you cannot see it and

5 then mark that with a letter B?

6 A. Yes, but there's no room. If I were to do that here where these

7 cars are, that's not there because it -- they couldn't have been parked

8 there because I don't know how long these cars have been there. But let's

9 say that it was somewhere around here.

10 Q. Can you mark that spot with the letter B, please?

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. Was that outside of the hospital -- was he outside of the hospital

13 compound or closer?

14 A. I already said that he was outside of the hospital compound

15 between the pavement and the grassy area.

16 Q. Could you just tell me one more thing while we're on this

17 photograph. These five people who came out of the bus with their IDs

18 and -- where were they standing and where did you have your dialogue with

19 them? Can you mark the approximate spot?

20 A. It was about -- the place where this small gatehouse is.

21 Q. Can you please mark that with the letter C?

22 A. [Marks].

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we would like to tender

24 this photograph with these markings into evidence, please.

25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

Page 3366

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 146.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the usher to show the

3 witness another photograph from the same set. It's photograph 0053-1266.

4 Q. Sir, do you recognise anything on this photograph? Can you tell

5 what's being shown in this photograph?

6 A. Yes, I do. And it's much better and clearer than what we talked

7 about so far. You can clearly see the exit here, and the ramp. And the

8 exit where we were lined up and when -- where the place where we went out

9 in the direction of Gunduliceva Street.

10 Q. Thank you. That's how I understood it. Can you specifically show

11 us the area on this photograph where you were searched?

12 A. The pen is not working. [Marks].

13 Q. Can you mark that with the letter A, please?

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Can you mark with the letter B the direction in which your wives

16 went, where they were separated, can you show that?

17 A. You can see just a part of the road because the building continues

18 on and the road is to the right of the building. This part that you can

19 see from the exit towards the road, I can mark that part.

20 Q. Yes, you can mark that part with the letter B, please.

21 A. [Marks].

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

23 this photograph into evidence as well.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: This will be exhibit number 147, Your Honours.

Page 3367

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We're not going to be looking at any

2 more photographs. You don't have to look at the monitor anymore.

3 Q. You told us that you spent a day at the hospital, one day and one

4 night. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you know how many patients were at the hospital at that point

7 in time? Were you told how many patients there were at the hospital?

8 A. No, I didn't know that and nobody told me that. I also felt no

9 need to find something like that out.

10 Q. You told us earlier that straight from the room next to the X-ray

11 room you went out and you found yourself outside of the hospital, and this

12 trip took a few minutes?

13 A. Yes, that's correct. The trip only took a few minutes.

14 Q. You were not the last one because you entered the fourth bus and

15 there were five more buses that were filled after you. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you please wait a little bit before beginning to answer my

18 question.

19 A. Thank you.

20 Q. So you personally were not able to see if all the men had left the

21 hospital. You were not able to see them because you were not amongst

22 the last?

23 A. I was amongst the last, because behind me, behind the people who

24 were lined up, no more men left the hospital.

25 Q. But you didn't see if any men did actually stay behind at the

Page 3368

1 hospital. This is what I'm asking you.

2 A. No, no, that's something that I didn't see.

3 Q. And you cannot rule out the possibility that patients and other

4 men remained behind at the hospital?

5 A. Patients, absolutely, yes. As for men who were in some other

6 category other than the ones who had been taken out, outside or told to go

7 to the plaster room for certain announcements, well, other than those

8 categories, I don't know if there were any other men who stayed behind.

9 Q. I would like to go back for a moment to your statement, again very

10 briefly, page 4 of the same statement. This part that you read out, "the

11 officer ordered us to get into the buses," you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The next sentence, well, I can read it or you can read it. Yes,

14 please read it out loud and slowly.

15 A. "A certain number of the wounded," is that what you mean?

16 Q. The sentence before that sentence, "There was not," that's how it

17 begins?

18 A. "There was no -- not any kind of system in order to get into the

19 buses."

20 Q. Do you recall saying that to The Hague Tribunal investigators?

21 A. That's what it says there and I accept that, but I probably didn't

22 use the word "climbing" because to me the word "climbing" means to climb

23 at a certain elevation. It doesn't fit into what I mean by it.

24 Q. Well, this is not exactly what I would say I was shooting at in

25 this question. The thing is: Do you remain by the statement that there

Page 3369

1 were no criteria used as people were getting into the buses?

2 A. No. We were simply told, Please get into the buses. We were not

3 told every fifth person or every seventh person or something, we were

4 simply lined up, and then we started to move along, and then we entered

5 the buses where there was space.

6 Q. Yes, that is how I understood your statement, but that does not

7 coincide with what you said during your testimony in chief, where you said

8 that you heard that patients were placed in the first three buses. So

9 this does not accord with what you said? Can you clarify that?

10 A. This group where I was mostly comprised civilians, but I heard, I

11 have information that the patients and the wounded were taken out before I

12 came out, and that they were placed in the first buses in the line.

13 Q. So you heard that exclusively patients and the wounded were placed

14 into the first three buses, that there were no civilians of the same

15 status as you in those buses?

16 A. Well, the logical conclusion is that, because in my bus there were

17 no patients or wounded persons.

18 Q. So what you said is a product of your logical thinking, not a

19 product of facts or information?

20 A. Well, it's just logical based on what is written here.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honours, that this would

22 be a good time for a break because after that I would move to another

23 topic.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. We will resume at 25 minutes

25 to 1.00.

Page 3370

1 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Sir, this is a general question and then we'll go into more

6 detail. From your testimony, both here and also from your statement, I

7 concluded that you saw my client on two occasions. You first said that

8 you saw Sljivancanin in the courtyard in front of the hospital, and that

9 you saw him the second time when you spoke with him in front of the bus

10 about the problem with your pass. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you were staying at the barracks in Ovcara [as interpreted],

13 you did not see him. Is that correct?

14 A. No, I did not see him, that's correct.

15 Q. Now, I would like to -- the transcript does not have it correctly.

16 I said at the barracks and at Ovcara, and in the transcript it says at the

17 barracks in Ovcara, but the witness and I understood each other well.

18 What I said was that at the barracks and at Ovcara and also in the

19 courtyard of the hospital as in the previous answer.

20 You said that he was in the courtyard in that area. Did you say

21 that he addressed you when you were standing in the courtyard in front of

22 the hospital, in front of the exit for the emergency service?

23 A. No. He did not.

24 Q. In response to a question by the Prosecution you said that you

25 heard and you had the impression that he was a person in charge there,

Page 3371

1 that he was issuing orders to the soldiers. That's what I understood from

2 what you said. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, it was.

4 Q. Did you see insignia indicating that he was a major, or did you

5 find out from the media later or based on some or information that he was

6 a Major Sljivancanin?

7 A. I did not see insignia. I didn't even look for any, and perhaps

8 it wasn't possible to see that from such a distance. But I heard from

9 others that the gentleman was a major, and this was later confirmed.

10 Q. You answered earlier that the lieutenant was present when you were

11 interrogated and then also present when you were told that you were

12 supposed to go to the buses. Did you personally see Sljivancanin issue

13 orders to the lieutenant or to any other officer there? Did you see

14 anything like that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you. Yesterday and today you mentioned a person by the name

17 of Martin Dosen; you described and also indicated on a photograph the

18 place where he was lying. I'm interested in a few details about that. In

19 your testimony you said -- and I assume that you saw that from the bus,

20 you saw Martin Dosen from the bus, or am I wrong? You saw him from the

21 bus when were you waiting to depart. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As far as I understood, you went to the buses at around 9.00, and

24 you left the hospital at about 10.00, so you spent about an hour in the

25 bus. Is that correct?

Page 3372

1 A. Yes. That was roughly the length of time that we spent sitting in

2 the bus.

3 Q. Do you know Mr. Dosen's wife, Ljubisa?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Can you recall one more detail in relation to the time when you

6 went out and also your conversation with my client about your papers.

7 When did you see Dosen lying there? Before you went out, or once you got

8 to the bus?

9 A. Before and after.

10 Q. Was he lying there when these five people left the bus?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You said yesterday during the examination-in-chief that his body

13 was later found and identified at Ovcara. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, I think so.

15 Q. I assume that you heard that from someone?

16 A. It was perhaps based on the information of those who perished at

17 Ovcara.

18 Q. Thank you. While you were in the courtyard or you while were on

19 the bus, did you see anyone boarding an ambulance or a truck in that

20 period while you were on the bus?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So from the door of the emergency service until the time that you

23 left the hospital area, all you saw were the five buses which were being

24 boarded by the people from the hospital. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3373

1 Q. I would now like to ask you about your alleged dialogue with my

2 client about the problem with your medical ID. I'm going to be precise,

3 and I am going to tell you exactly what you said. And this is in the

4 transcript from yesterday. I'm going read that in English, that's how it

5 was recorded in the transcript, and then you can tell me whether you still

6 stand by what you said yesterday. It's page 15, line 3.

7 [In English] "I got off the bus and I addressed Major

8 Sljivancanin. I didn't know his name at the time. I just knew that he

9 was a JNA major. He had looked at the IDs of those other five detainees.

10 He said their passes or IDs were all right, and he said they should go

11 back to the hospital."

12 [Interpretation] That's what you said yesterday. Do you remember

13 that?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. I conclude that you were present during his address or during his

16 conversation with those people, then they left and the two of you stayed

17 to discuss your problem?

18 A. No. We were a little bit away from them, a few steps further from

19 them, and the five of them spent a long time standing in that place where

20 they came out, and then later they went to the hospital courtyard.

21 Q. Did they go into the courtyard when you were still on the bus?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. You heard Sljivancanin's conversation with them?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You didn't tell us that yesterday. Can you please clarify for me.

Page 3374

1 These five people came out, did you come out of the bus when he was still

2 talking with them?

3 A. I came out -- I came off the bus a little bit later than they did

4 and then I was walking slowly towards the officer in question. I waited a

5 little bit to the side until he finished the conversation with them. I

6 didn't join their group.

7 Q. Now you assert that the officer in question was my client, Veselin

8 Sljivancanin. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move into private

11 session for a moment? I wanted to ask the witness about some people who

12 are subject to protective measures.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3375











11 Pages 3375-3382 redacted. Private session.















Page 3383

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

14 Mr. MOORE: Your Honour, may I deal with Mr. Vasic not

15 evidentially, but in relation to clarification. Quite simply this: In

16 his cross-examination of the witness, before we proceed, it was suggested

17 at -- to the witness that there was a particular regiment or brigade that

18 was at Ovcara. For my part it seemed to suggest, and from the transcripts

19 I have got an "ATS 18th Brigade." Now, I don't know whether in actual

20 fact that is correct, whether the interpreters have got it correctly or

21 not. Could we perhaps just clarify whether it is right?

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I will only be

23 too glad to clarify this matter for my learned friend.

24 His quote is not correct. We are talking about the 80th Motorised

25 Brigade based in Kragujevac.

Page 3384

1 JUDGE PARKER: Right away from the ATS 18th Brigade, Mr. Moore.

2 MR. MOORE: I'm grateful for the clarification. Thank you very

3 much for that.

4 I have no re-examination in relation to Mr. Vasic's

5 cross-examination.

6 May I move on, then, to Ms. Tapuskovic, please, in relation to

7 clarification, one matter. There was -- and then I have some questions.

8 There was one matter that Ms. Tapuskovic did mention before going into

9 private session. There was reference to names that were going to be named

10 and then were not named. The only matter that I would wish to raise at

11 this time, and I'm quite happy to go into private session, if needs be, is

12 whether in actual fact it is going to be suggested later on in the trial

13 certain names. And if that is the case, then this witness should have the

14 opportunity in private session to either accept or deny or indeed say I do

15 not know what those names were. My understanding was names were going to

16 be put, but it depends really what is going to happen later on in the

17 trial. Perhaps my learned friend could clarify that.

18 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the simple fact of

19 the matter is during my cross-examination I just changed my mind and at

20 one point no longer wished to ask the witness that question. I did say

21 so, I believe, and I requested immediately to go back into open session.

22 What I can say is that, as it happens, the question was later asked by my

23 learned friend colleague Mr. Lukic, since his examination was more

24 extensive on that subject. We are trying not to repeat ourselves, and we

25 are trying to divide up certain areas in order to not take up too much

Page 3385

1 time in cross-examination. So that's all there is to it. If Mr. Moore

2 for a moment there believed that there was some sort of a mental

3 reservation about my question on my part, that was certainly not the

4 case.

5 Thank you.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Tapuskovic.

7 MR. MOORE: I would never consider there was any mental

8 reservation by my learned friend Ms. Tapuskovic. I just wanted to make

9 certain that we were dealing with the same topics.

10 Thank you very much for that clarification.

11 Re-examined by Mr. Moore:

12 Q. May I deal then, please, Witness, in respect of what you called

13 the sixth bus that arrived at the JNA barracks. Do you remember being

14 asked about that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You later on said to the Court that nobody knows what happened to

17 them. It was not seen again. My question is this: Do you know where the

18 sixth bus came from?

19 A. I don't know that. I just know that the sixth bus arrived later,

20 after we got there, about half an hour later. Half an hour after the

21 first five buses arrived.

22 Q. You've told us about what I will call the attack on the bus by the

23 individuals who were there, and you said nothing's known about the fate of

24 the prisoners. Do you know any of the names of the individuals who were

25 on that sixth bus?

Page 3386

1 A. No.

2 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like to deal then, if I may, with one

3 other topic. You told us about the hangar in Ovcara that you saw one

4 young boy, you described him, I believe, as being 16 years of age,

5 approximately, that he was taken outside and then he was returned to the

6 hangar because his father was in the Croatian army. Do you remember that

7 evidence?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know the name of that young boy who was taken back into the

10 hangar?

11 A. Yes. I know the young man's name was Igor; that was his first

12 name. I don't know his last name. And I didn't know the young man

13 personally.

14 Q. Do you know or have you been told what happened to that young man

15 when he went back into the hangar?

16 A. No. I've never been told. I don't know specifically what

17 happened to him, but he ended up together with all the other prisoners who

18 remained in the hangar.

19 Q. Have you ever seen that young boy again?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Where had he -- which district had he been living in prior to

22 being taken to Ovcara?

23 A. I don't know that either.

24 Q. Did he come from Vukovar or not?

25 A. I don't know. But I should assume so.

Page 3387

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. MOORE: Your Honours, I have no further questions. Thank you

3 very much.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Moore.

5 You will be pleased to know, sir, that that concludes the

6 questions for you so that your evidence is now at an end. The Chamber

7 would express its thanks to you for coming to The Hague and for the

8 assistance that you have given with -- by your evidence to the Tribunal.

9 A court officer will now escort you out, and you are of course free to go

10 back to your home and your ordinary affairs. Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Are we in a position to proceed, Mr. Moore?

14 MR. MOORE: We are, Your Honour, yes. But there is one matter

15 that I would seek the Court's assistance and guidance on. It really

16 relates to the conduct of the trial and the speed of the trial.

17 I mentioned at the very outset the possibility of using

18 Rule 89 (F) as a method of producing evidence. Clearly the Defence are

19 not fettered in any way of their ability to cross-examine. The Court

20 indicated that initially perhaps there might have been a reluctance and to

21 assist all parties to, as it were, get their bearings in relation to the

22 case.

23 The witnesses that we would be seeking to call in a sequence with

24 the odd interruption because of certain difficulties that witnesses have.

25 We have certainly one witness which will be a video link. Then we have

Page 3388

1 other witnesses who will give evidence of Velepromet and Ovcara. They

2 are, in our submission, important witnesses, but nevertheless there are

3 areas that could be excluded. For my part I would respectfully ask the

4 Court for guidance in relation to this, because I would submit that the

5 time has now come to utilise 89 (F) in appropriate cases and to avoid

6 repetition.

7 The reason I mention it at this time is quite simply at the

8 present moment the Prosecution have been on schedule with regard to their

9 time estimates; indeed, I think we're slightly under on our time

10 estimates. But we obviously have to inform witnesses who are being

11 brought to court two or three weeks ahead, and at the present moment we

12 are trying to bring three witnesses, sometimes four, depending on the

13 nature of the evidence that is going to be given and the nature of the

14 cross-examination. If we are going to use the 89 (F) procedure, and in my

15 submission we should do so, then clearly I would be asking for more

16 witnesses to be brought to the court complex, and I have to give those

17 witnesses notice.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Can you identify the witnesses whom you would

19 propose to follow 89 (F) procedure?

20 MR. MOORE: I cannot do it immediately. It will take no more than

21 five minutes to do so. But can I say straight away that virtually all the

22 witnesses, and they break into two categories, we have one, what I would

23 call military witnesses where -- and indeed experts which are under a

24 different category, but there are witnesses, civilian witnesses, who deal

25 with the Ovcara incident and the Velepromet incident which specifically

Page 3389

1 relates to Count 1, obviously. And with regard to those witnesses, I

2 would be inclined and submit that I could call virtually all of them under

3 the 89 (F) procedure, as I submit it in no way is unfair to the Defence

4 because they are able to cross-examine extensively and in no way are

5 fettered in that cross-examination. It just stops repetition and court

6 time is saved.

7 JUDGE PARKER: You are proposing in the case of witnesses whom you

8 have yet to specifically identify that you would call the witness, have

9 them confirm the accuracy of their statement, enter the statement and then

10 have the witness available for cross-examination?

11 MR. MOORE: Can I just indicate what I was hoping to do? It would

12 depend on the evidence given, shall we say, by Witness A. If Witness A

13 gave evidence in chief, in part, nevertheless of course the statement we

14 would submit would still go in as evidence and the Court would have that

15 available to them. But it may be, for example, that there would be areas

16 not cross-examined by my learned friends, so they would not contested

17 areas, and they would not be contested areas for me. And therefore it

18 would really depend on the evidence that would be given by the previous

19 witnesses on how I adopted -- or the Prosecution adopted a course in

20 dealing with the 89 (F) procedure. I couldn't say that every

21 witness would just merely be, This is your statement, do you accept it as

22 accurate, and I tender it as an exhibit. There may be witnesses where I

23 would wish to particularise or specify or ask questions that have arisen

24 as a direct consequence of cross-examination from my learned friends.

25 JUDGE PARKER: So you are contemplating that in addition to

Page 3390

1 calling these witnesses and tendering their confirmed statement, there may

2 be occasion for supplementary questions in chief?

3 MR. MOORE: Yes.


5 MR. MOORE: We would anticipate we would save at least one day a

6 week if this procedure was adopted, and clearly fairness and justice has

7 to be adhered to. That is the lodestar of any court. And we in our

8 submission would -- do submit that that -- it doesn't affect that in any

9 way at all.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Does the Defence have a position on this proposal?

11 Mr. Vasic.

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

13 Above all, as far as Rule 89 (F) is concerned, the Defence

14 believes that this has to be the exception rather than the rule applied

15 when justice so requires. We are not entirely convinced that my learned

16 friend has managed to persuade us that the issues of justice are at stake

17 here. There may be other issues at stake here, but we do not believe that

18 reasons of justice are involved.

19 As for the groups of witnesses that he has referred to, if these

20 are military persons, I suppose we are talking about members of the former

21 JNA.

22 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... as I

23 understand, nor any expert witnesses, merely for a number of factual

24 witnesses.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe I have simply

Page 3391

1 misunderstood, but I believe there were two groups of witnesses being

2 mentioned. A group of military witnesses, and another group of witnesses

3 who will be testifying about Ovcara and Velepromet. That was my

4 understanding. But these two groups were interrelated.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. It's the second group that Mr. Moore suggests

6 would include many witnesses who might be dealt with under 89 (F), and I

7 would understand that he says the interests of justice would justify this,

8 including the speedier and more efficient use of trial time with no

9 disadvantage being incurred to the Defence because you will have the

10 normal opportunity to cross-examine. I think that's the effect of

11 Mr. Moore's submission.

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, by all means, Your Honour.

13 However, the way I see things, there are two problems arising.

14 One in relation to our previous experience, the experience we have had so

15 far, in relation to every witness, we regularly had statements dated 1995

16 and 1996, 10-year-old statements. Therefore, we kept receiving addenda

17 for each and every of the witnesses provided by my learned friend. We are

18 talking about recollections and memories that are 15 years old, in most

19 cases.

20 Another problem that I can see is if we look at what my learned

21 friend has served on us as a witness list, those still remaining to be

22 called, these witnesses were divided into groups, and some witnesses speak

23 directly about the actions of the accused and their responsibility in the

24 barracks and at Ovcara.

25 As for Velepromet, this has no direct relation, but based on our

Page 3392

1 previous experience here, based on the witnesses that we have heard and on

2 the number of addenda provided by my learned friend, I do not think that

3 merely tendering their statement into evidence would be an equitable

4 solution because it will deny the Defence the right to hear the witnesses

5 here, to hear what they have to say 15 years later, this being perhaps the

6 second or even the third time they are examined, and this opens a whole

7 lot of new possibilities for our cross-examination.

8 Therefore, our position is that Rule 89 (F) should be used in a

9 restrictive manner and only when the interests of justice are certain to

10 be best served by applying that rule.

11 Thank you very much, Your Honour. I believe that is all I have to

12 say.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Tapuskovic.

14 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 My position, Your Honour, is that when making a ruling on whether

16 Rule 89 (F) should be applied in our proceedings in such a manner as my

17 learned friend has just presented, I believe we must bear in mind

18 Article 21 of the Statute and all the rights that any accused person must

19 enjoy, including a fair and expeditious trial. If one decides to start

20 applying Rule 89 (F), this might go into a degree of expeditiousness.

21 However, I believe this would be at the expense of fairness. One

22 thing we must bear in mind is that a total of 88 witnesses have been

23 proposed, although on two separate occasions the OTP announced that they

24 would maybe move to extend that list. We have 29 witnesses enjoying

25 protective measures, the full set of protective measures, meaning closed

Page 3393

1 session, voice distortion, facial distortion. We have 10 witnesses who

2 will testify pursuant to 92 bis.

3 What has been proposed, or suggested by my learned friend Mr.

4 Moore for these witnesses to testify pursuant to Rule 89 (F), if I

5 remember correctly, there must be about 30 of those witnesses, if my

6 recollection of the list is accurate, which is about a third of the

7 witness list in its entirety. I believe we have to keep all these things

8 in mind before we decide whether it really serves the best interests of

9 justice to apply Rule 89 (F).

10 In my submission, Your Honour, this approach would be detrimental

11 to the best interests of justice, and we would certainly achieve a more

12 expeditious trial but not necessarily a fairer one.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 Mr. Lukic.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I agree and

16 support the positions of my colleagues from the Defence entirely, but I

17 would also like to add one thing.

18 I noticed when you were deciding on Rule 92 bis and the

19 introduction of certain statements that you strictly respected the sense

20 of the 92 bis rule, and that is that these -- the parts relating directly

21 to -- and you cited precisely in your decision what you considered to be

22 direct or indirect, matters relating to the act -- actions of the accused.

23 I think that in this treatment of Rule 89 (F) this is directly in

24 contradiction to the sense of Rule 92 bis and that practically through a

25 written statement if a witness is talking about acts and failures of the

Page 3394

1 accused under 92 bis, and this is in the 89 (F) statements, it's something

2 that a witness can only testify to in live testimony. Perhaps it would be

3 much easier for the Prosecutor to decide which witnesses were repetitive

4 and simply to give certain witnesses up, and that way we can save some

5 time there, not to have witnesses repeat themselves, then we would save

6 time in not repeating questions in cross-examinations for which we have

7 already received answers and for which some conclusions had already been

8 made.

9 My proposal is that the witnesses who are called to testify before

10 the Tribunal, especially keeping in mind the fact that a lot of these

11 statements, and I think only these military statements were taken quite

12 recently, but a large number of statements from the Croatian sides were

13 actually taken in 1995, and you can see that there are differences in

14 these statements. Now the Prosecutor would be in the position under our

15 Rule 89 (F) to provide that statement and then also to give an annex to

16 the statement and then avoid cross-examination. I believe that with this

17 we cannot deal with the acts and -- actions and failures of the accused

18 because that would be contrary to the sense of or intention of

19 Rule 89 (F).

20 Thank you.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

22 Mr. Moore.

23 MR. MOORE: Well, with the utmost respect, I fail to understand

24 Ms. Tapuskovic's submissions in relation to Article 21. As far as I can

25 understand, one of the criteria that's applied is the expeditious

Page 3395

1 presentation of the evidence. Everything is a balancing act, and clearly

2 what we say here is that the Defence are not fettered in any way in their

3 cross-examination. That is the most important aspect of the -- ensuring a

4 fair trial.

5 The statements are taken in 1995. Of course I accept that, and I

6 accept that addenda have been given. But the important point is that the

7 Defence have not been disadvantaged by the method adopted by the

8 Prosecution and would not be disadvantaged by the use of 89 (F) itself.

9 With regard to my learned friend Mr. Lukic saying, well, you give

10 up witnesses, with the utmost respect I will try, and have tried, although

11 the Court may have not noticed it, to remove myself from repeating certain

12 material that has been given earlier on. But we are now coming to the

13 crux of the case, namely Velepromet, which relates specifically to Count 1

14 and generally to Counts 2 and 8, and then we move to the JNA barracks and

15 clearly Ovcara. In our submission, it would be utterly wrong to give up

16 witnesses that are relevant witnesses going to the elements of the offence

17 that the Court has to determine merely for expedition. Fairness means

18 fairness to all parties, not just the Defence.

19 In our submission, we pose one very simple question: How do the

20 Defence say that they are disadvantaged by the use of 89 (F)? Because we

21 submit that they are not.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, as I understood him, would put two

23 matters at least. First, we are dealing with statements that typically

24 are some 10 years old. And the experience to date in the trial suggests

25 that witnesses, when they come here, recall matters differently from what

Page 3396

1 has been recorded in their statement 10 years ago. And that it is, or it

2 might well be of significance to assessing the credibility of that -- the

3 witness and the difference to actually hear from the witness what is their

4 present belief and understanding. What you propose would shortcut all of

5 that and, as it were, we would hear their evidence essentially of 10 years

6 ago.

7 MR. MOORE: Your Honour said there were two matters. Is that --

8 that's the first?

9 JUDGE PARKER: The second is the denial to the Defence of the

10 opportunity to cross-examine on those differences once they have emerged.

11 MR. MOORE: Dealing with the inconsistency point, what my learned

12 friend Mr. Vasic is saying, we have a statement in 1995, we presumably

13 have addenda, if there are any, and there have not been that many, or

14 significantly, in relation to the witnesses, and then you have the

15 statement given in evidence in chief. In our submission, consistency can

16 be assessed quite easily by use of 89 (F) because the Defence would be

17 entitled to compare the statement and the evidence. It does not in any

18 way erode the ability to compare those two accounts.

19 It may well be there is, I suppose, a third account, namely you

20 have the 1995 statement, you have what I will call the addenda, the

21 proofing where we give expansions or variations, which could be said to be

22 inconsistent or clarification, depending whichever side you're on, and

23 then thirdly, the evidence in chief. But equally the Court can look at

24 the evidence that is being given and ask themselves this very simple

25 question: To what extent have the witnesses deviated significantly from

Page 3397

1 their statement and addenda when it came to their evidence in chief? In

2 my submission, I can think of no example where a witness statement has

3 been tendered as an exhibit so that the Court could compare the witness

4 statement and the account given. And the Defence would be perfectly

5 entitled to do so.

6 So I would submit, in actual fact, the evidence that we have had

7 tends to demonstrate that Mr. Vasic's concern has not got a sound basis.

8 The inconsistency can still be demonstrated by way of comparison of the

9 witness statement and the evidence in cross-examination. So I would

10 submit that.

11 Secondly, the second point is, and I'm -- I'm sorry, it seems to

12 be suggesting that there would be an inability to cross-examine.

13 JUDGE PARKER: What is missing, Mr. Moore, is the witness's actual

14 present account of the witness's recollection.

15 MR. MOORE: But if the witness himself says on oath, I have read

16 this statement, I have created an addenda and signed that addenda as

17 accurate, by adopting that particular statement and addenda he puts the

18 stake in the ground in saying, This is my account and it remains the same.

19 So --

20 JUDGE PARKER: Entirely correct as a proposition. I think you and

21 I have seen courts enough to know that there is then often quite something

22 different emerge in the course of the actual giving of the evidence.

23 MR. MOORE: I certainly accept that. But can I equally submit

24 that if there is actually something significantly different, is that not

25 the very stake upon which the Defence use or use that stick to beat the

Page 3398

1 Prosecution to demonstrate the proposition that in actual fact there is an

2 inconsistency. It is, to some extent, a self-fulfilling prophecy, is it

3 not?

4 JUDGE PARKER: Can I put another concern, Mr. Moore. The Chamber

5 has been discussing the progress of the case and the course in particular

6 of cross-examination. And it has seemed to the Chamber that quite a bit

7 of time has been spent on small detail of the evidence of a witness, where

8 somebody was standing, where somebody moved to, how many were there. Now,

9 so far it has not often emerged what it is that that is directed to. We

10 don't understand the point that is being made. It may be that it's merely

11 exploring for credit. But we would have thought that the extent of this

12 questioning suggests that there is a line of defence there, and that has

13 not become terribly clear to us.

14 Now, if we were to follow 89 (F) with all factual Prosecution

15 witnesses about what is really the core of the case, which we haven't

16 really got to yet, are you not likely to produce, as a consequence, a much

17 more extensive and prolonged cross-examination as people for the Defence

18 spend time trying to search out where there might be differences?

19 MR. MOORE: May I respectfully submit in the nicest possible way,

20 is Your Honour saying that two wrongs make a right?

21 JUDGE PARKER: I'm saying to you that there are many factors at

22 work here and they're not just simple. I personally have used an

23 equivalent of 89 (F) for some years in civil proceedings. One of the

24 consequences of that has been lengthier cross-examination because matters

25 have not been gone through in chief, so Defence counsel, out of caution,

Page 3399

1 whether the witness has a different view about something that may be of

2 interest to the Defence case, go over that ground for themselves. Now,

3 that has just been a normal and regular experience in an -- a court at

4 superior level with very experienced counsel. So it's not clear-cut that

5 if you use 89 (F) you save all the time that would be taken in evidence in

6 chief. It spills over.

7 It encourages the second problem that I have mentioned earlier.

8 That is counsel just exploring in the hope that they may come across

9 something of use and value rather than necessarily following a specific

10 point, which it is seen is essential to pursue in the course of the

11 Defence.

12 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, might I respectfully reply in the

13 following way: I have little doubt with the experienced counsel that we

14 have on the Defence side that they know their case, that the points that

15 they are trying to establish, and that they will cross-examination --

16 there will be cross-examination as to that point. Of course it is

17 entirely a matter for judicial discretion.

18 Might I -- I'm not English and therefore I tend not to

19 compromise. I tend to be of a nationality that tends to be rather

20 dogmatic. But might I try and suggest a compromise in the sense that --

21 may I perhaps or the Court consider calling two or three witness 89 (F).

22 I will particularise who they are and see whether in actual fact Your

23 Honour's fears may manifest themselves or indeed we are able to save time.

24 Time isn't the most crucial, important -- although I know that

25 certain individuals within the administration may not look at it in that

Page 3400

1 way. But nevertheless, time -- the undertakings that are given or the

2 guide-lines that I've given, and I've spoken to my learned friends about

3 when they believe this trial may conclude, vis-a-vis the Prosecution case,

4 we may not be on time unless there is some flexibility in relation to the

5 evidence which does not disadvantage the Defence.

6 JUDGE PARKER: This Chamber is guided by the fairness and the

7 propriety of the trial, Mr. Moore. If it's going to take us until the end

8 of 2007, it will. I'm confident it won't, but just to make it clear that

9 we are not being driven by some artificial need to meet a time dead-line.

10 But --

11 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I wasn't trying to be rude in any way.

12 JUDGE PARKER: We need to ensure that there is an efficient use of

13 valuable court time. A use which focuses on the issues that matter in

14 this case and is not spent loosely using time in the hope that somewhere

15 in there there might be another point.

16 You have not yet been in a position to indicate which witnesses

17 you would propose this procedure for, nor have you sought to differentiate

18 between those witnesses which are really at the forefront of your case,

19 those who are most critical, and those who may be merely supportive of odd

20 incidental matters. I would suggest that you might give attention to

21 that, and that if the propositions you put were able to be focused on some

22 supportive witnesses, and a few of them, and we can assess how that goes,

23 and then see whether the process should continue or even be expanded that

24 you might find the Chamber more at ease with your proposal. At the moment

25 the notion just that all witnesses concerning what we're approaching,

Page 3401

1 which is the core of the case, should simply come and tender statements,

2 is a very sweeping proposition.

3 So could we invite you, over the break, that is until next

4 Tuesday, to look more closely at the particular witnesses you have in mind

5 and see whether or not it would be possible at least as a trial to focus

6 on a few who are less critical, and we could then consider that position,

7 which I think is quite different from what you are now putting.

8 MR. MOORE: Certainly, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Now, running with that, two things: First, we

10 would invite Defence counsel to look more closely at what is precisely

11 their defence cases. The impression, and it may be quite wrong, but the

12 impression we have often got is that questions are put merely in the hope

13 that there may be something in there somewhere and precise details are

14 sought in the hope that one or two of them may be confused or in error or

15 something. This is a case where the fundamental issues are few and

16 starkly clear. And we would hope that it will be possible to concentrate

17 on those rather than spend a lot of time on small, minor detail that is

18 not going to make much difference to anybody at the end of the day.

19 And the last thing, and an important thing that the Chamber would

20 want to emphasise, is that there does seem to have been a failure to

21 effectively look at the issue of the agreement of facts. There seem to be

22 a number of matters in this case which ought to be the subject of

23 agreement which are not, and that can only mean then that the Prosecution

24 has to press on with leading witnesses and spending time with a witness on

25 matters which in the end will prove to be non-controversial, so we would

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1 urge all counsel to once again face up to the issue of agreement of facts.

2 Now we say all of these things because it's in everybody's

3 interests, above all each of the three accused, to get this long trial

4 process over as quickly as possible. That is possible consistently with

5 fairness. It's not going to do the accused, their families, and their

6 friends good for this thing to drag on months longer than it need do.

7 People want to get to the result and to get there as quickly as possible.

8 So that we would urge counsel to look at the means available to them, to

9 ensuring that we use our time efficiently and not waste it and just drag

10 out the proceedings unnecessarily.

11 Mr. Moore, we will look forward to hearing from you when we meet

12 again on Tuesday. In the meantime, clearly we've run out of time, we

13 cannot move to another witness today. We thank counsel for their

14 assistance, and we will adjourn now until Tuesday.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.57 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 31st day of

17 January, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.