Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3645

1 Friday, 3 February 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

7 Two quick procedural matters more beyond procedure. We have all

8 noticed the time it has taken to bring up the detailed map of Vukovar,

9 Exhibit 59. The registry officer has been able to prepare from that

10 Exhibit 59 a version which is less detailed in the intensity of the number

11 of pixels. It, for most purposes, will do just as well as the more

12 detailed map but will be able to be brought up on the screen in half the

13 time. So could I invite all counsel, in future, unless there is some very

14 special reason to go to the very detailed map, to use the other, which has

15 been entered as an exhibit, I think 156. Exhibit 156 the less detailed

16 map.

17 The second matter is that the -- as counsel will be aware, on

18 Monday we have a pre-programmed videolink for a witness who is unable to

19 be here. For that reason, it would be highly desirable, if possible, for

20 us to conclude this witness today, because we must go to the videolink on

21 Monday. So I would ask all counsel to bear that in mind.

22 If I could remind you, sir, of the affirmation you made at the

23 beginning of your evidence, which still applies.

24 Mr. Smith.

25 MR. SMITH: Thank you Your Honours.

Page 3646

1 WITNESS: WITNESS P-012 [Resumed]

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Examination by Mr. Smith: [Continued]

4 Q. Witness, yesterday you talked about leaving the Vukovar Hospital

5 and leaving on a bus with a group of other buses and arriving at the JNA

6 barracks on the 20th of November, 1991. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. And you also said that when you arrived at the JNA barracks the

9 buses parked in a semicircle inside the barracks, and then there was a

10 number of paramilitaries that were surrounding the buses and threatening

11 the people in the buses, including yourself. Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Just so give the Court a bit more understanding of what the

14 atmosphere was like and what these men were doing, can you describe in a

15 bit more detail as to what they were doing whilst you were sitting on the

16 bus in the barracks?

17 A. They surrounded the buses. Most of those were local Serbs, local

18 Serb paramilitaries, threatening us with knives and rifles saying that

19 they would slit our throats and kill us. There was this one man, an

20 acquaintance of mine, they threatened him that they would rape his wife.

21 Q. And if you could name that person?

22 A. Yes. Mihovil Zero.

23 Q. And how long did this threatening go on for? How long were they

24 surrounding the buses and carrying on in this manner?

25 A. Between 10 and 15 minutes, I reckon.

Page 3647

1 Q. And how were you feeling at that stage?

2 A. It was an awful feeling. At least the feeling I had was awful,

3 having realised that this was not the way I thought it would be. This was

4 no interview or questioning. The way matters looked at this point, I

5 thought the worst would happen to us.

6 Q. And you said this surrounding and threatening by these people

7 were -- was carrying on for about 10 to 15 minutes. What happened after

8 that?

9 A. After that a military officer got onto the bus, some sort of a

10 commander. That's what I thought at least. He obviously had quite some

11 authority over the others because everything suddenly got very quiet. He

12 went from bus to bus, asking everybody if we knew the whereabouts of

13 Sinisa Glavasevic, Josip Esterajher, Dr. Zlatko Simunovic, Dr. Farkas,

14 Dr. Emedi, and Dr. Sijanovic. When we told him that we had no idea, he

15 started calling out names of individuals - he called out my name too -

16 and told us to go to another bus that was waiting there empty at a

17 distance of perhaps 30 metres from the other buses.

18 Q. Thank you. You gave a number of names that he was looking for or

19 calling out and you gave them quite fast, so perhaps if we just go back a

20 minute. And if we can talk about the military officer that got on the bus

21 that you said seemed to have some sort of command or authority over the --

22 over the men outside of the bus. What sort of military group did he

23 belong to when you say he was a military officer?

24 A. He belonged to the JNA. He was wearing the JNA uniform head to

25 toe.

Page 3648

1 Q. And how was his appearance compared to the appearance of the other

2 men that were surrounding the buses? Was there any difference?

3 A. The difference was ineffable. He was very orderly, clean-shaven,

4 with a recent haircut. Everything was spick and span, as people say,

5 including his uniform. A proper soldier.

6 Q. And again, you said that he came onto the bus, and he called out

7 some names initially. And I'm just wondering if you could go through

8 those names a lot more slowly than you did before so that we can record it

9 on the transcript.

10 A. Simunovic, Dr. Zlatko; Emedi, Dr. Vladimir; Farkas, Dr. Ladislav;

11 Sinisa Glavasevic; Josip Esterajher; and Sijanovic, Dr. Andrija.

12 Q. Now, what ethnicity were these people?

13 A. These people were ethnic Croats with the exception of Dr. Farkas,

14 who was a Hungarian. And Dr. Emedi was a Ruthenian by ethnicity.

15 Q. And were any of those people on the bus that you were on?

16 A. No, no.

17 Q. And did you see any of those people whilst you were at the JNA

18 barracks on other buses?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And then after this, did this JNA officer, did he leave the bus,

21 or stay on the bus after he was looking for these people.

22 A. He left the bus, and I imagine he went to the other buses to

23 announce the same thing and ask the same question.

24 Q. Did you know these people and did you know where they worked?

25 A. I'm sorry, are you referring to the people I have just described,

Page 3649

1 the doctors that they were looking for?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 A. I knew them all quite well, all the doctors, and Sinisa

4 Glavasevic, I did not know Josip Esterajher though.

5 Q. And you said that after he entered your bus he went to other buses

6 apparently looking for these people. Whilst he was going to the other

7 buses, what was the situation with the paramilitaries you mentioned

8 outside of the buses that had surrounded them? You said that quietened

9 down. Was that the same situation, or had things changed?

10 A. The situation had already quietened down, but this high-ranking

11 officers who called out our names told us to go to the other bus that was

12 parked about 30 metres away from the remaining buses. The paramilitaries

13 then formed a gauntlet, and as we passed through it they kicked us with

14 their boots, with clubs and with iron rods. Whichever way they could. We

15 ran over to the other bus, because we knew that if any of us fell to the

16 ground they would probably beat us to death.

17 Q. And just so it's clear, you said that the JNA officer came on to

18 your bus and was looking for that -- that group of doctors that you --

19 that you have mentioned. And then you said that he went to the other

20 buses. Did he then come back to your bus or what happened?

21 A. I never saw him again, but there is one correction I have to make.

22 Not all of them were doctors. Two of them were journalists. Josip

23 Esterajher and Sinisa Glavasevic. The rest of them were doctors.

24 Q. And when the JNA officer was looking for this group, did he also

25 call out your name, or was that on a second occasion?

Page 3650

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this was a capricious

5 and leading question. The next time the officer did not call out the

6 witness's name because we just heard the witness stating "I never saw the

7 officer again," so it wasn't possible for him to see the officer again or

8 for the officer to call out his name.

9 Thank you.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith?

11 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I think earlier in the transcript that

12 the witness stated that he was called out, I believe. Right at the very

13 beginning. I was seeking to clarify whether, in fact, the officer had

14 come back on a second occasion, but I can clarify it with the witness.

15 JUDGE PARKER: It's your reference to the second occasion that I

16 think with some justification has concerned Mr. Borovic.

17 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll approach it another way.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


20 Q. Witness, how many times did that JNA officer come on to the bus

21 that you were on?

22 A. Once.

23 Q. After the JNA officer came on to the bus did you get off the bus?

24 A. Yes. Only those whose names had been called out.

25 Q. And was your name called out?

Page 3651

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And do you remember the -- any other people from your bus whose

3 names were called out that got off the bus?

4 A. The only one I remember is Rudolf Wilhelm, and Kolja Kolesar.

5 Q. And you said your names were called out, so you got off the bus.

6 What were you told to do?

7 A. We were told to go to that empty bus that was parked about

8 30 metres away from the remaining buses.

9 Q. And who told you to do that?

10 A. That military officer.

11 Q. And when you got off the bus, can you explain more fully what

12 happened to you specifically?

13 A. Specifically this wasn't just me. This applied to all the others

14 who were on their way. The paramilitaries had formed a gauntlet through

15 which we had to pass on our way to that bus. They hit us and kicked us

16 using all sorts of implements. Iron rods, wooden clubs, kicked us with

17 their boots, with their rifle-butts. They used whatever they could lay

18 their hands on to hit us with until we eventually reached the other bus.

19 Q. You said earlier that there were about 100 or so paramilitaries.

20 Were they all involved in the gauntlet or was it only some of them?

21 A. Some of them, not all of them. At least to the extent that I was

22 able to observe and to the extent that I am now able to remember, 15 years

23 later.

24 Q. Can you tell the Court what happened to you exactly?

25 A. I was beaten just like those who had gone before me. I tried to

Page 3652

1 protect myself because I was carrying my suitcases which I used to shelter

2 from the blows. But on the other side, the side of my body where I wasn't

3 carrying my suitcase, they were hitting me, using all sorts of different

4 implements and whatever they could.

5 Q. And what about people from the other buses? Were people coming

6 from the other buses and running through this gauntlet?

7 A. Yes, we all met the same fate.

8 Q. And after running through these paramilitaries or through the

9 line, did you eventually get on to the other bus?

10 A. Yes, yes, we did. But that other bus was just as dreadful. There

11 were two paramilitaries who were mistreating me specifically. There was a

12 blond paramilitary who hit me twice. And the other man, the notorious

13 Milan Bulic, who used to work as a butcher in the kitchen was beating all

14 the others.

15 Q. When you mentioned that you and others went from one bus to the

16 other one through this gauntlet of paramilitaries, about how long did that

17 take in minutes?

18 A. I'm sorry, I didn't catch the question.

19 Q. The beating that was happening to yourself and the others that

20 came off the other buses, for about how long did that take whilst you were

21 outside of the buses?

22 A. Well, it went on until we reached that new bus, but it continued

23 on that bus too, because there were two persons on that bus who continued

24 to beat us. Milan Bulic, also known as Bulidza, and I didn't really know

25 the other person's place. He was from one of the villages in the

Page 3653

1 surroundings of Vukovar. I was told this later on by people who had, in

2 fact, recognised him.

3 Q. And about how many people were put on to that other bus in

4 addition to yourself?

5 A. About 30, 40 perhaps.

6 Q. And whilst you were being beaten and the others were being beaten

7 outside of the buses, did anyone attempt to stop this from continuing?

8 A. No. No one attempted to stop this from happening. The few proper

9 regular JNA officers who were there saw this going on but they just did

10 nothing about it.

11 Q. Did you see what the JNA officer was doing whilst you were being

12 beaten? And I'm referring to the one that --

13 MR. LUKIC: Objection.


15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this is tantamount to leading

16 the witness. First of all, we should ascertain whether there was a JNA

17 office present at the scene at this point in time. Only after that has

18 been ascertained can we have a question like this.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, that was established by the previous

20 question -- or the previous answer. Yes. You're quite right, but it

21 actually had been established.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. Indeed. You're right,

23 Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Smith.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Still, I have to justify my objection.

Page 3654

1 I was listening to the B/C/S interpretation. The witness said the few JNA

2 soldiers who were outside did nothing about that.

3 Can we please clarify this with the witness, because that's what I

4 understand the witness to have said. The few soldiers who were outside

5 the bus failed to react, or something to that effect.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not outside the bus but, rather,

7 around the bus and around that gauntlet there. There were soldiers there,

8 but there was no reaction from them to what those other people were doing.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Proceed, Mr. Smith.

10 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Once you were called off the bus, off the first bus, and before

12 you ran through the gauntlet, how long did it take you to get off the bus

13 after your name was called?

14 A. Five minutes is what it took us to reach the empty bus, which we

15 then got on to.

16 Q. And do you know what the JNA officer was doing, the one that

17 called you off the bus whilst you were being beaten?

18 A. Well --

19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Borovic.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. Your Honour, it is

21 not my intention to be interrupting my learned friend all the time but we

22 can go back to the transcript where the witness said, I did not see this

23 officer again, the officer who I believe went to the other bus, which I

24 believe renders this question superfluous.

25 Thank you.

Page 3655

1 JUDGE PARKER: Possibly superfluous, but it's perhaps desirable to

2 get clear.

3 And so the question asked is: Do you know what the JNA officer

4 was doing, the one that called you off the bus? What was he doing whilst

5 you were being beaten? Could you help us with that, please, Witness?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can, of course. I suppose

7 that he went to the remaining four or five buses. I suppose he went

8 there. And as everybody was leaving, I imagine he must have been watching

9 this and he must have seen what was happening and that we were being

10 mistreated and yet he did nothing about it.

11 JUDGE PARKER: You say you imagine. Did you actually see him?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't actually see him. I

13 may even have seen him, to be quite frank, but the fear was so great and

14 the pressure was so great that we only realised once we had reached the

15 barracks what was going on at all. The fear was so great that under all

16 the pressure and fear, you failed to realise clearly what was going on.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

18 Yes, Mr. Smith.

19 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Witness, now that you had run through the gauntlet and got on to

21 the other bus where you say there were 30 other people on it, you

22 mentioned that the beatings continued. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is correct.

24 Q. And you mentioned that Milan Bulic and another person with blond

25 hair was -- were executing carrying out the beatings?

Page 3656

1 A. Yes. Both of them belonged to the paramilitaries.

2 Q. And apart from the people that were called out and told to go to

3 this other bus, including yourself, was there anyone else on that bus in

4 addition to these two paramilitaries?

5 A. No, there was nobody else on that bus except for the driver of the

6 bus. That is, two paramilitaries, and another JNA soldier.

7 Q. When you say there was another JNA soldier on the bus, are you

8 saying that the driver was a JNA soldier or are you saying that there was

9 a driver and a JNA soldier on the bus? Can you clarify that for us?

10 Thank you.

11 A. There was the driver and another JNA soldier who was standing at

12 the entrance to the bus. He was there for our protection, so to say, but

13 as far as I could see this was a young man recruit who may have been

14 recruited a day or two prior to the events. He was a child.

15 Q. And why do you believe he may have been recruited a day or two

16 before?

17 A. As we were being abused in the other bus he was astonished and

18 afraid. One could see that clearly. He was clearly a child still.

19 Q. And the driver of this bus, were you able to ascertain whether he

20 was a civilian or a military driver?

21 A. Military driver. He wore a helmet and a uniform.

22 Q. And from which military group did he belong?

23 A. He belonged to the JNA.

24 Q. Was -- you mentioned that people were being beaten on this bus.

25 Is there anyone in particular or any people in particular that you

Page 3657

1 remember were being beaten - and take your time - on this bus.

2 A. I remember very well. I remember Milan Bulic, I used to know him

3 very well, as he used to work in our -- in the kitchen of the hospital

4 before the war. First he used an iron bar to hit Jozo Zeljko. He hit him

5 on the neck and on the head. And with his military boot he kicked him in

6 the face. He fell to the ground in blood, and he asked Milan, "How many

7 lunches and dinners did you have at my place," because before the war they

8 used to be friends. Jozo Zeljko's wife and Milan Bulic used to work in

9 that kitchen together. And Milan Bulic's response to that was that he

10 turned to the JNA conscript, saying, "Give me your rifle to kill him so

11 that I can have some Croatian blood."

12 Q. And what did the JNA conscript do?

13 A. Nothing. He didn't give him his rifle, but he remained silent and

14 afraid.

15 Q. And can you explain to the Court if Jozo was a short name for

16 something for -- for another name or is that a full -- a full name, full

17 first name?

18 A. That was his full name, Jozo Zeljko.

19 Q. And about how old was he?

20 A. At that time he may have been 35 to 40. Since I was 50 at the

21 time, he was my junior by some 10 years, so he was probably around 35 or

22 40.

23 Q. And is Jozo ever used as a short name for Josip in Croatia?

24 A. Well, yes. But I don't know whether his name was actually Josip.

25 We all knew him as Jozo. I don't know anything else, whether he was Jozo

Page 3658

1 or Josip. But it is correct that in Croatia one can have a -- the name of

2 Josip but he can be known as Jozo, but in this case I don't know.

3 Q. And after you got on the bus with the other 30 or so, how long did

4 you stay at the JNA barracks before you left?

5 A. Around 20 minutes.

6 Q. And were you told at all where you were being -- where you were

7 going to be taken?

8 A. Milan Bulic, or that is Milan Bulic, aka Bulidza, told us we were

9 being taken before the firing squad.

10 Q. And did he say where that firing squad was going to be?

11 A. No, he didn't say anything apart from that, that we were being

12 taken to -- before the firing squad.

13 Q. And can you tell the Court where you were taken?

14 A. They took us in front of the hospital, that's where we were loaded

15 on to the buses initially and then we were returned there. But not to the

16 main gate, but rather to the side entrance which is call Sapudle at the

17 Gunduliceva Street.

18 Q. And was the driver, the other JNA soldier, and those two other

19 paramilitaries, were they still on the bus when you arrived back at the

20 Vukovar Hospital?

21 A. Yes. The two paramilitaries were there, and the driver. They all

22 came to the side or back entrance of the hospital.

23 Q. And once you got back to the hospital, did they tell you to stay,

24 did they tell you to leave? What did they tell you to do, if anything?

25 A. They didn't tell us anything. But in the meantime, spouses of

Page 3659

1 some men appeared, because most of the men were husbands to nurses or

2 physicians at the hospital, and they had probably gone to Major

3 Sljivancanin who approved that they could go out. They managed to explain

4 to him that those were people who didn't carry arms, who used to work on

5 odd jobs at the hospital or help out.

6 Q. And were you able to get off that bus? And if you were, can you

7 explain how that occurred?

8 A. I managed to get off, but I was one of the last, and at the last

9 moment I noticed a Serb colleague, a woman, who was the head of the

10 hospital pharmacy. I knocked on the window, she saw me, and she went to

11 see Mr. Sljivancanin, and she managed to get me out as well as my brother

12 and my nephew.

13 Behind me, as far as I can remember, there remained Miroslav

14 Vlaho, Mato Vlaho, Jozo Adzaga, Jozo Zeljko, and another person whose name

15 I don't know. I do know that he worked at Jugopetrol. He was abused and

16 mistreated because they claimed he killed a prominent Serb in Vukovar

17 known as Jovo Rakijica.

18 At the time they were getting off the bus, Zeljko, Jozo and

19 Adzaga, Jozo asked me in tears to go see the head of the kitchen,

20 Mrs. Anica, to go and see Mr. Sljivancanin and to pray for their release,

21 and to tell Mr. Sljivancanin that they carried no arms but that they had

22 cooking jobs in the hospital kitchen.

23 Q. Can you tell the Court of the name of the woman that assisted you

24 in getting off the bus? You say she went to speak to Mr. Sljivancanin.

25 A. Her name was Gordana Bosnic. During the war, close to the end of

Page 3660

1 the war, she was the head of the hospital pharmacy.

2 Q. And how did you know that she had to get and others had to get

3 Mr. Sljivancanin's approval for you to get off the bus? How did you know

4 that?

5 A. When I knocked on her window, she explained that she would go and

6 see Major Sljivancanin to ask for our release. That's how I knew.

7 Q. And then once you were released, did you discover if there was any

8 involvement of Mr. Sljivancanin, in fact? That's what she said was going

9 to happen?

10 A. I beg your apologies, but could you repeat the question? I didn't

11 comprehend completely.

12 Q. She said Ms. Bosnic said to you that she would seek

13 Mr. Sljivancanin's approval for you to get off the bus. Is that why you

14 believe he was involved in that, or did you discover later more

15 information to know that that was, in fact, the case or not?

16 A. I got that piece of information right away, because we all knew

17 who was the main person there. And he was the one to say who could leave

18 the -- the hospital compound and who could get off the buses.

19 Q. And just to be clear, how did you know that he was the main person

20 there that would provide that approval?

21 A. When we were brought in front of the hospital on the buses he was

22 there. And he was present as the first few people got off the buses.

23 Q. So are you saying that he was present when you first left the

24 Vukovar Hospital and you saw him again when you arrived back after the JNA

25 barracks? Is that what you're saying?

Page 3661

1 MR. LUKIC: Objection.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness replied that he saw

4 Sljivancanin when they returned to the hospital, and then the Prosecutor,

5 posing his next question, suggested to the witness that he was also

6 present as they were leaving the Vukovar Hospital. And that's not what

7 the witness was saying in the first part of his testimony yesterday.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose that the Prosecutor had in

9 mind the following, that is, when we were leaving on the convoy, when we

10 were leaving the hospital, that's when Major Sljivancanin was present. I

11 suppose that's what the Prosecutor had in mind.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith, Mr. Lukic's objection is well-founded.

13 There has been no indication of that in the evidence so far. If you could

14 be more careful. Thank you.

15 MR. SMITH: Just with respect, Your Honour, if I look at the

16 answer at line 15 on page 16, the witness said: "When we were brought in

17 front of the hospital in the buses he" - and obviously "was" is missed

18 out - "there and he was present as the first few people got off the

19 buses."

20 And so that's why the question was based, because when he came

21 back he was only on the one bus, but he was talking about -- it seemed to

22 refer to when he left --

23 JUDGE PARKER: That answer you have referred to is speaking only

24 about the return of the one bus to the hospital.

25 MR. SMITH: That's correct, Your Honour, but it seems as though --

Page 3662

1 JUDGE PARKER: You have introduced the departure earlier to go

2 away from the hospital. And that's the point of concern.

3 MR. SMITH: I mean, I accept your ruling, Your Honour, but it

4 seems that he introduced some information that applied to that earlier

5 situation, which obviously wasn't said yesterday. But I will --

6 JUDGE PARKER: Neither Mr. Lukic nor I think that the witness

7 introduced it. We think you introduced it. The witness has confirmed it.

8 It is now his evidence, but it was at your prompting.

9 Thank you, Mr. Smith. Carry on.

10 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. When you got off the bus, what did you do?

12 A. When I got off the bus I went straight to the then head of the

13 military kitchen, because during the war that was the military hospital

14 and the military kitchen. I went to tell her that I was asked by Zeljko

15 and Adzaga Jozo to go to see Mr. Sljivancanin and ask for their release

16 since they carried no weapons and that he was to tell him that they were

17 only performing their duties in the kitchen.

18 Q. Did you go to Mr. Sljivancanin, or what did you do?

19 A. I didn't go to see Mr. Sljivancanin. I asked Anica Sila to do

20 that. She was the head of the hospital kitchen. I was asked by the two

21 colleagues who remained on the bus that I go and see her so that she could

22 go and talk to Mr. Sljivancanin.

23 Q. And did you see her, and what did she do?

24 A. I didn't see what she did. I did see her leave, though, with the

25 intention to go and look for Mr. Sljivancanin on -- in the compound of the

Page 3663

1 hospital. She went to see him, she explained the situation, and

2 Mr. Sljivancanin told her, "Wait a few moments and we'll deal with it."

3 But one of the paramilitaries later on whispered something to him on the

4 side, and after that he told Anica Sila the following: "You may go now.

5 If they are innocent, they will be released. If they're guilty, they will

6 remain." And unfortunately, so it was, and they ended up at Ovcara.

7 Q. And who told you that Mr. Sljivancanin said this?

8 A. The head of the kitchen, Ms. Anica Sila.

9 Q. About how many people were left on the bus after -- after you got

10 off?

11 A. After I got off, some seven people remained.

12 Q. And did you see the bus leave, or did it stay there before you --

13 did it stay there before you left?

14 A. It was still there, but I don't know for how long. As Ms. Sila

15 Anica was still with Mr. Sljivancanin, the bus was there.

16 Q. And did you leave the Vukovar Hospital that day?

17 A. That day, what do you mean if I left? It is unclear. Because for

18 a while I was at the barracks, and when I returned and released, I left on

19 the convoy. I don't know what exactly you have in mind.

20 Q. About how long after you were released did you go on the convoy?

21 A. Five to 10 minutes at the most.

22 Q. And when you say it was a convoy, what type of vehicles were in

23 that convoy and about how many people were on it?

24 A. I can't be specific as to the number of the vehicles. It seemed

25 to me around 10 buses; there may have been more or less. And the people

Page 3664

1 on them were the medical personnel, physicians, nurses, and the technical

2 staff. Apart from that, in the military medical vehicles, there were

3 those people from the hospital in Vukovar who were gravely injured or

4 wounded.

5 Q. And about how many medical vehicles were on this convoy,

6 approximately?

7 A. There were at least 10 medical vehicles, because there were a lot

8 of those who were seriously wounded.

9 Q. And where were you told -- or were you told where you were going

10 to go from there, and where did you go?

11 A. We were told that we were to leave to Croatia, but we were then

12 driving towards Nustar, which was the way towards Croatia, but rather

13 towards Serbia [as interpreted]. They kept saying that they were

14 negotiating with Tudjman and that Tudjman wouldn't have us.

15 Q. And on the way, what route did you take and what places did you

16 pass or stop at, of significance?

17 A. The first time we stopped after leaving the hospital was at

18 Velepromet. Even to this day it remains unclear to me. We saw two of our

19 employees there, one of whom left in June before the war, an orthopaedist,

20 Dr. Maric, and we knew he was in Negoslavci. And the other person was --

21 his last name was Arsenic; I can't remember his first name. Yes, it is

22 Zeljko, Zeljko Arsenic. And he remained there until the very last moment.

23 He was taking down those seriously wounded and then he went to Velepromet

24 to wait for us in his military uniform. Zeljko Arsenic was an

25 anaesthesologist with the hospital throughout the war.

Page 3665

1 Q. And what type of military uniform was it? Could you work out the

2 group to which he was belonging to?

3 A. I can't confirm with any degree of certainty whether it was a

4 paramilitary uniform or not. Dr. Maric was the only one in full uniform.

5 Zeljko Arsenic was carrying something of military nature, but I'm not sure

6 whether it was an entire uniform. It's been 15 years. I can't recall

7 exactly, but I think he was wearing a uniform.

8 Q. When you stopped at Velepromet, did you park outside the location,

9 or did you go inside?

10 A. We parked in front to -- of the main gate of Velepromet. We

11 didn't go in.

12 Q. And about how long did you park out the front of Velepromet?

13 A. Around 20 minutes.

14 Q. And after that I believe you stayed the night at

15 Sremska Mitrovica. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it is. We came to Sremska Mitrovica, and as we parked to our

17 left there was a large building with our men and women from Vukovar. They

18 were detained there. On the other side there was a military facility, and

19 when we got off the buses, we were received quite well. They gave us warm

20 tea and food as well as a blanket each. And having eaten, we returned to

21 the buses, and until next morning nobody moved from the buses. The people

22 from the international community who were in our escort recommended that

23 we do not leave the buses.

24 Q. And you said it was a military facility. Belonging to which

25 military group?

Page 3666

1 A. The JNA.

2 Q. And then the next day you travelled further on. Is that correct?

3 And where did you end up?

4 A. The next day -- or, rather, the next morning we drove through

5 Bosnia and reached Croatia.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you some further

7 questions about some of the people that you believe -- may believe are

8 missing from those buses that you were on, on the 20th of November. Do

9 you understand?

10 A. Yes, I do. Zero, he was on my bus, Mihovil Zero.

11 Q. If I can just interrupt for a moment. I'm just going to go

12 through it step by step, and if you could just listen to the question.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would ask that at this point we go into

15 private session. The witness is familiar with a number of these people,

16 and I think that might lead to identification.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3667











11 Pages 3667-3672 redacted. Private session.















Page 3673

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 MR. SMITH: And, Your Honours, I will call for one last exhibit.

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in public session, Your Honour.

18 MR. SMITH: Sorry.

19 JUDGE PARKER: You would like to tender this?

20 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour, I would like to tender that.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

22 MR. SMITH: Under seal, please, Your Honour.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Received under seal under reference 159, Your

24 Honours.

25 MR. SMITH: If we can call document number 65 ter, 224, it's a

Page 3674

1 booklet of 11 photographs of the Vukovar Hospital. I would ask that the

2 photograph 00531257A be called up. I think that is the last photograph of

3 the group, if we could go to the first one which is 1257A. Thank you.

4 Q. Witness, do you see the photograph on the screen?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Could you tell the Court what that's a photograph of?

7 A. It's a photograph of the hospital and the hospital surroundings.

8 Q. Now, Witness, in your evidence you talked about the kitchen where

9 you worked, the old hospital building. Can you just point with an arrow

10 where that old hospital building is.

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. And can you mark that with an A, please.

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. Also, could you mark on that photograph the location where you

15 left, you finally left the Vukovar Hospital to go to Croatia when you came

16 back on the 20th of November? And if you could mark that with a B,

17 please.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. That marking, just for the record, looks like a 13, so that can

20 do.

21 A. Well, I've given it my best shot. This is how it comes out.

22 Q. Very nicely. Thank you. If we can --

23 A. I'll have another go. No, I can't. It's worse now, if anything.

24 Q. I think we all understand. Thank you very much.

25 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that photograph, Your Honour.

Page 3675

1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. I have no objection to

5 this, but one thing I'm not clear about is this marking, the letter A. Is

6 that in reference to the other building, with the ground floor, or is it

7 in reference to a building that can't be seen in the photograph.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's in reference to another

9 building which is not in the photograph, which is about 50 metres away

10 from the main building.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for this clarification. I

12 think my learned friend had better find a photograph where we can see that

13 building actually. I think that's probably more use than this photograph.

14 JUDGE PARKER: This will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: It will received under the reference 160, Your

16 Honours.

17 MR. SMITH: Thank you. We will get to that photograph. If we can

18 move to 00531258.

19 Q. Witness, on the photograph that's in front of you could you mark

20 the location where the buses left to go to Croatia and mark that with

21 an A, please?

22 A. I don't think I can.

23 Q. That marking that you just put, is that the location from where

24 the buses left? Is that correct?

25 A. Yes. It was right here. But this continues further down and to

Page 3676

1 the left.

2 Q. And what was the name of the street that the buses were parked on,

3 the ones that left to go to Croatia?

4 A. Ivo Lola Ribar Street.

5 Q. And can you also mark with a B the emergency entrance to the

6 hospital, please.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. Thank you. And if you mark with a C the location from where you

9 were taken to the JNA barracks on those buses.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. Thank you. And can you also draw a line which would represent the

12 underground corridor you referred to in your evidence that joined the old

13 hospital to the new hospital, approximately?

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. And if you can mark that with a D, please.

16 A. [Marks].

17 MR. SMITH: Your Honours, I seek to tender that photograph.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 161.

20 MR. SMITH: And I'll now have a photograph that Mr. Vasic will

21 like. 00531259, please.

22 Your Honour, I think this process will take about probably five

23 minutes, as I go through the photographs, then I will be finished with the

24 witness.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 3677

1 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

2 Q. Witness, you should have the photograph in front of you now.

3 Could you mark with an A the new hospital building, please.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Thank you. And if you could mark with a B the old hospital

6 building, where the kitchen was located. Thank you.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. Thank you. And if you could mark with a C the exit that you came

9 out of when you left the Vukovar Hospital for the first time at the end of

10 the underground corridor.

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. And can you mark that exit with a C, please? The beginning of

13 that line.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. And can you indicate, perhaps with some crosses, the location

16 where the JNA soldiers were that had lined up and were searching you and

17 others as you were leaving the hospital?

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. SMITH: And if we can have Exhibit 00531260, please.

21 I seek to tender that photograph.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 162.

24 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

25 Q. Witness, on this photograph can you draw again the line from the

Page 3678

1 exit, which you took from the main hospital building to the buses when you

2 first went to the JNA barracks, please.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. And perhaps if you could put an arrow on the end to show the

5 direction that you took.

6 A. [Marks].

7 Q. Again, could you mark some Xs as to where the JNA soldiers were as

8 you were being searched when you left.

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that exhibit.

12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be received under reference 163, Your

14 Honours.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Just in order to dispel any doubts, in

18 the previous photograph I think the witness marked the soldiers in one

19 line, whereas -- or it might be my mistake, Your Honour, actually. It's

20 my mistake.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have marked them in two lines.

22 I've drawn two lines.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

24 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honours. Just a few more photographs

25 to go and I'll be very quick.

Page 3679

1 JUDGE PARKER: We're running out of tape time.

2 MR. SMITH: It's literally two -- two or three minutes, but I'm in

3 Your Honour's hands.

4 JUDGE PARKER: We can do two or three minutes.

5 MR. SMITH: If we can have 00531262.

6 Q. Witness, can you tell the Court what this is a picture of?

7 A. In this photograph you can see the underground corridor connecting

8 the new building and the old building. This is the entrance to the old

9 building, and the makeshift kitchen was just around here.

10 Q. If you could mark that with an A, please.

11 A. [Marks].

12 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: It will be received under the reference 164, Your

15 Honours.

16 MR. SMITH: If I can call 00531263 -- sorry, I'll slow down.

17 Your Honour, I think I was being a little optimistic with the time

18 that the photos take to come up on the screen, so maybe it would be a good

19 time to break now.

20 JUDGE PARKER: We will have the first -- there it is. Deal with

21 that one, Mr. Smith.

22 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Q. Witness, can you tell the Court what this is a photograph of?

24 A. In this photograph you can see the exit to the new building, the

25 new hospital. The new hospital building. And to the left you can see the

Page 3680

1 entrance to the nuclear shelter, which had two small rooms in it. That

2 was a proper nuclear shelter.

3 Q. Thank you. And if you can mark the entrance to that nuclear

4 shelter with an A, please.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. And perhaps if you can draw an arrow to the actual entrance

7 itself.

8 A. Just one thing. The entrance to the nuclear shelter, or the exit

9 leading to the new building?

10 Q. The entrance to the nuclear shelter, please.

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. Thank you. And if you could place the marking B, which would be

13 the exit from the main building.

14 A. [Marks].

15 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Under the reference 165, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn now for the first break, resuming

19 at quarter past 4.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 3.56 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

23 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Witness, if you look at the photograph that will be put on the

25 screen, it's the ERN number 00531264.

Page 3681

1 Witness, in that photograph there are three doorways. Do you

2 recognise what they are the doorways to?

3 A. I recognise them, and I will point at them with the marker. This

4 here was the Crisis Staff, this is where Mrs. Vesna Bosanac sat. This is

5 the plaster room where Mr. Sljivancanin had his speech delivered to the

6 medical staff, and this is the emergency exit. In the extension there are

7 two surgical rooms.

8 Q. Could you mark the entrance to the Crisis Staff room with the

9 letter A, please.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. Thank you. And if you can mark the plaster room with the

12 letter B, please.

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. And if you can mark the emergency exit with the letter C, please.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. And if you can mark the extension where there were two surgical

17 rooms with the letter D, please.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. And, Witness, is the emergency exit to the hospital the same as

20 the emergency entrance?

21 A. Yes, it is. It is the same thing.

22 Excuse me, I didn't understand, at least I'm not quite certain.

23 Could you repeat the question, please?

24 Q. You marked the emergency exit with the letter C. And I'm asking

25 whether that is the same as the emergency entrance into which the

Page 3682

1 ambulances come in with the emergency patients?

2 A. The ambulances didn't come in, but they stopped in front of the

3 door. As I said, there is a hallway at the back of the picture, and as we

4 could see in some of the previous pictures, there were benches in that

5 corridor, or rather, stretchers on wheels to receive such patients. And

6 behind that is where the ambulances were parked. Here, further down, is

7 the corridor, and only then the exit from the emergency ward.

8 Q. And can you mark that with an E, please.

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. SMITH: Your Honours. I seek to tender that.

12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be received under the reference 166, Your

14 Honours.

15 MR. SMITH: If I could ask for Exhibit 00531265. That's the

16 following photograph.

17 Q. Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

18 A. Yes, I do. It is what I was trying to explain a minute ago.

19 That's the extension of the corridor, and the stretchers with wheels, and

20 there is another stretcher in front of the door as the emergency exit was

21 protected by planks. This is where patients were received and then taken

22 on to the surgery or some other place in the hospital.

23 Q. And can you mark the doorway with the letter A, where the patients

24 came in? Thank you.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 3683

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Under reference 167, Your Honours.

5 MR. SMITH: If I could ask that the following photograph be called

6 up, ending in 1266, 00531266.

7 Q. And, Witness, do you recognise that photograph?

8 A. Of course, this is the emergency entrance. As I said, this is

9 where the ambulances would park, bringing patients in and then one would

10 go through here towards the surgery. And this is exactly where we went

11 out when we were taken to the barracks.

12 Q. Can you mark the photo with the letter A, the doorway which is the

13 emergency exit or entrance.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Thank you. And if you can mark with an arrow, pointing the

16 direction that you took when you left to go to the JNA barracks on the

17 20th of November.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. And can you mark again with Xs the approximate locations of the

20 JNA soldiers that were searching you and your colleagues as you were

21 leaving the building?

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

Page 3684

1 THE REGISTRAR: With the reference 168, Your Honours.

2 MR. SMITH: And if I can call the last photograph, 00531267.

3 Thank you.

4 Q. Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

5 A. Yes, I do. That's the exit, or rather not the main entrance, but

6 the side-gate from the Sapudle Street, or Gunduliceva Street.

7 Q. And can you draw an arrow from the street to the location of the

8 emergency entrance or exit, as you say?

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that photograph, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be received under the reference 169, Your

14 Honours.

15 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would seek also to tender the full

16 photographic book, which contains 11 photographs, unmarked, of what the

17 witness has just been looking at, that were taken in 1997 under the

18 direction of investigator in this case.

19 JUDGE PARKER: You tender it as a booklet or in electronic form.

20 MR. SMITH: In electronic form. Thank you, Your Honour. That's

21 65 ter number 224.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Under reference 170, Your Honours.


25 Q. Witness, just a couple of last questions from me.

Page 3685

1 Do you know a person by the name of Zvonko Varenica?

2 A. Zvonko Varenica, I do know him. He's our plumber.

3 Q. When was the last time that you saw him?

4 A. The last time I saw him was when he was with me on the bus at the

5 barracks.

6 Q. On the bus, as you were leaving the barracks -- sorry, I'll

7 rephrase that question.

8 When you left the barracks, was he on the bus with you?

9 A. When we left the barracks he remained behind on one of the buses

10 that we were called out from. Or, rather, the one that we were called out

11 from.

12 Q. And about how old was Zvonko in 1991?

13 A. He was between 30 and 35. I am not certain. He had two children

14 who were still of elementary school age.

15 Q. And have you heard of him being alive since that day?

16 A. No, unfortunately. I attended his funeral because he was one of

17 those identified at Ovcara.

18 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this person also appears in the annex to

19 the indictment. And I've completed my questions.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Smith.

21 Mr. Vasic.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Having in mind your instructions and our wish to meet the needs of

24 the witness, because we were told that the witness would soon have to

25 leave due to his obligations, and having in mind that the

Page 3686

1 examination-in-chief lasted one hour 45 minutes instead of 45 minutes, but

2 we will try to do our utmost, although I cannot promise that we will meet

3 the dead-line set by ourselves and that we had in mind before the

4 examination-in-chief finished.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I thank you for that, Mr. Vasic. If attention it

6 focused on those parts of the witness's evidence that really matter,

7 they're clear, a lot of it is just side material, I think you might be

8 able to accomplish it.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic:

11 Q. Good afternoon, I would like to introduce myself. I'm Miroslav

12 Vasic, counsel for Mr. Mrksic. Since we speak a language that we both

13 understand, could you please make pause between question and answer so

14 that we would give time to the interpreters? There is another point to

15 it; that is, you should give time to me to turn my microphone off as you

16 are a protected witness, so that your voice would not leave the courtroom.

17 On the 16th of July, 1995 you provided a statement to the

18 representatives of the OTP, and it was read out to you in your mother

19 tongue. You signed the statement?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. What you mentioned in the statement was the best you could

22 recollect at the time, although it was four years later, that is, four

23 years after the events. Isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. You also testified before this Tribunal in a case in February of

Page 3687

1 1998. Isn't that correct?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. And at that time you also testified as best you could in terms of

4 your memory. Isn't that correct?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. You also participated in the proceedings initiated by the Croatian

7 authorities -- or, rather, in the process of gathering information on the

8 missing persons, and you also provided some information. Is that correct?

9 A. Could you please repeat the question? I didn't understand.

10 Q. I will repeat. Having arrived to Croatia, you provided

11 information to the Croatian authorities pertaining to those missing from

12 Vukovar, and you participated in the process of creation of that list of

13 the missing persons. Isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes, it is. I collected such data as I was under a work

15 obligation, I worked for the Croatian Red Cross.

16 Q. Please do not provide us with unnecessary data because you could

17 give your identity away.

18 A. Yes, it is correct.

19 Q. In addition to that, did you also speak with some representatives

20 of international organisations dealing with the protection of human rights

21 and did you provide any sort of statement to them?

22 A. I never discussed such matters with any of such representatives

23 and I never provided any statement.

24 Q. Thank you. The institution you were employed with in Vukovar, its

25 staff was of various nationalities. Isn't that true?

Page 3688

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. In your work-place as well as in the part of the city where you

3 lived you associated with members of all the nationalities represented in

4 Vukovar?

5 A. It is correct.

6 Q. In December of 1992 [as interpreted] and January 1991, did any of

7 your Serb friends tell you that they felt endangered or deprived of their

8 rights when the new Croatian constitution was put into force declaring

9 Serbs as a national minority?

10 A. The Serbs did not mention that they felt deprived or anything of

11 such nature. I never heard that from them.

12 Q. A correction for the transcript, page 43, line 6, December 1991 --

13 no, 1990 instead of 1992.

14 In spring of 1991, were there unarmed units organised in Vukovar

15 composed of members of the HDZ?

16 A. I can't respond to that since I was never -- never busied myself

17 with politics, and it is a purely political question unrelated to the

18 topic of our discussion today.

19 Q. I just asked you if you were familiar with such a fact; my

20 intention was not a political one.

21 A. I don't know. I never busied myself with politics. I did not

22 even vote at the elections. I simply dislike politics. I did not vote

23 for Tudjman or anyone else. I simply did not vote.

24 Q. Thank you. Let us now go to the 2nd of May, 1991. That is, I

25 presume, the day you will never forget.

Page 3689

1 A. I will never forget that day, because I was sitting in my office

2 and I received a call that I should put all the ambulances and other

3 available vehicles to the disposal and to be sent to Borovo Selo because a

4 massacre took place. I also wanted to go, but my colleagues, drivers,

5 told me that I should be at the gate to help them out because there were

6 numerous vehicles concerned.

7 Q. I would like to ask you with a view of the fact that we need to

8 complete this cross-examination as soon as possible and you need to leave

9 to keep your answers brief, so that we could move quickly.

10 That day you suffered shock and you were subsequently treated for

11 it, and you lost 20 kilos in weight.

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. You were in shock because you were present when Serb citizens from

14 Borovo Selo were brought into the hospital. They were injured with

15 fragmentation bullets. Isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. When did you return to work?

18 A. In August.

19 Q. The situation in hospital had already been changed by then. Were

20 new measures introduced by the Ministry of Health creating the Crisis

21 Staff and the necessary pre-conditions to receive those wounded and

22 injured?

23 A. Yes, they were in place already.

24 Q. The ethnic make-up of those employed at the hospital, has that

25 changed? Did some Serbs, nurses and doctors, have left by that time?

Page 3690

1 A. Yes, as well as some others, some cooks, some drivers, a few

2 nurses and doctors. They had left the hospital by the time I returned.

3 Q. Was another hospital manager appointed by the time?

4 A. The replacement was made prior to August. Much earlier, I

5 believe, in June or July, perhaps.

6 Q. Dr. Bosanac headed the staff in the hospital until the 21st of

7 November, 1991. Isn't that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the question concerned

10 Crisis Staff.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You received your tasks and duties from Dr. Bosanac?

13 A. Yes. She was my managing director, and she issued us with tasks

14 and orders. She told us what to do and who was to do it.

15 Q. Yesterday you told us you were under work obligation. I believe

16 that was issued by the Crisis Staff, since it is a measure undertaken

17 during emergency situations?

18 A. Perhaps I didn't use the right term. I was tasked by Dr. Bosanac

19 to manage those 30 people. We were all under an obligation to work. No

20 one could stay at the hospital and do nothing.

21 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether the Crisis Staff of the medical

22 centre in Vukovar ever issued an order in June or July of 1991 concerning

23 the nuclear shelter and its use, as well as storing a significant quantity

24 of medication and medical equipment?

25 A. Yes, I am familiar with such an order.

Page 3691

1 Q. Thank you. You said that at the time you headed the group you

2 mentioned. Were you given that task immediately upon your return in

3 August, or did you continue with your previous duties?

4 A. In August one could no longer supply or procure anything because

5 the shelling had already started. So I was tasked with other things.

6 Q. If I was to tell you that the plane bombings and the shellings on

7 Vukovar began on the 25th of August of 1991 as confirmed by several

8 witnesses, would you say that I'm correct in claiming that?

9 A. You may be. A lot of time has passed and I can't remember the

10 exact date, but more or less it is so.

11 Q. After that date you went to the hospital?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Could you tell us, if you know, how the Mitnica defence was

14 organised prior to that day?

15 A. I'm not familiar with that. As I said, I didn't deal with such

16 matters. I never bothered because I was employed at the hospital. But I

17 did go home every day from hospital for as long as I could.

18 Q. You mentioned the group you headed. You said they were men?

19 A. Yes, only men.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could move into private

22 session, since I intend to ask about the group.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 3692











11 Pages 3692-3695 redacted. Private session.















Page 3696

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

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15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24 Q. We're back in open session, sir.

25 Sir, during combat operations in Vukovar, was there a special

Page 3697

1 service or a unit that had the duty of bringing the wounded and the

2 injured back from the town to the hospital?

3 A. We had our own emergency unit and they would bring in the wounded

4 if there was a call to say that somebody had been hurt. Furthermore,

5 there were check-points manned by our Croatian defenders, and whenever one

6 of them was wounded or seriously injured, they would bring these wounded

7 persons back to the hospital in their own vehicles.

8 Q. Did they have some sort of radio communication with the duty

9 doctor back at the hospital or the head of the emergency unit, so if there

10 were any calls when anyone got injured they could go out and pick those

11 people up?

12 A. I really can't say they did or if they didn't, but I don't think

13 there was any line of communication open between them. Sometimes they did

14 it on their own initiatives. Sometimes they would pick up a patient at

15 one of the check-points and they would ask us. For example, I personally

16 once gave them one of my vehicles to use because one of their vehicles had

17 been damaged during these transports, and they probably made applications

18 with other people too. But most often, they would bring the wounded in

19 from the check-points to the hospital themselves.

20 Q. Do you know that in September 1991 the hospital was still

21 receiving regular medical supplies from other parts of Croatia, from

22 hospitals in other parts of Croatia, by land or by air. There was a

23 helicopter bringing supplies landing at an airfield near the hospital?

24 A. Yes, I do know that.

25 Q. Do you know that in October two convoys were organised by the

Page 3698

1 Medecins sans Frontieres. First of all, tell me if you know about that?

2 A. Yes, I've heard about that.

3 Q. What about the convoy on the 13th of October? Isn't it the fact

4 that they did not get past the barracks because there had been no

5 agreement with the Vukovar command to have the defence lines opened and

6 that's why the convoy got stuck right there? Wasn't that the case?

7 A. As far as I know, all the convoys were eventually successful.

8 They all left Vukovar eventually and no one ever returned. I may be wrong

9 on that one, but I don't think any of the convoys ever got stuck, as far

10 as I know.

11 Q. But what about one particular convoy that took a large number of

12 wounded away from the hospital? This was on the 17th of October, 1991.

13 A. I knew about all the convoys. At least as far as I know. We all

14 knew what was going on in the hospital, me in particular. I was working

15 with those 30 people and then I was assigned to a different job, but I

16 still kept my close cooperation with the hospital's Crisis Staff

17 throughout.

18 Q. Given the fact that you cooperated or worked closely together with

19 the Crisis Staff, do you know if the hospital's Crisis Staff at any time

20 received any instructions from the Crisis Staff of Vukovar's defence?

21 A. I think there was cooperation between the two. There was some

22 sort of cooperation, but I never personally witnessed any conversations

23 between them. But I did go there a number of times and I think they did

24 work together, yes.

25 Q. What about this other convoy on the 17th of October, the convoy

Page 3699

1 that arrived at the Vukovar Hospital? Was it escorted by members of the

2 National Guards Corps all the way to the hospital?

3 A. I don't know that.

4 Q. Do you know who decided which persons would join the convoy in

5 order to leave Vukovar and go back to Croatia? Who was in charge of that?

6 A. I suppose it must have been the head nurse, Binazija Kolesar, and

7 Dr. Bosanac herself, as well as Dr. Njavro, who was the chief surgeon.

8 And Dr. Ivica Matos, a urologist, who also performed surgery during the

9 war, as well as Dr. Aleksijevic.

10 Q. Dr. Matos was a member of the Crisis Staff of Vukovar's defence

11 wasn't he?

12 A. I don't know, I can't say. I know that he was a member of the

13 hospital's own Crisis Staff. As for his membership in the other Crisis

14 Staff, the Crisis Staff of Vukovar's defence, I really don't know.

15 Q. Are you aware of fact that a wounded soldier by the name of Ivan

16 Zivkovic was taken away from Vukovar on that convoy?

17 A. I really don't know. I don't know about a single patient, I

18 think. There was one that I knew of, Darko Dombaj.

19 Q. You told us yesterday that you saw armed members of the National

20 Guards Corps standing outside in the hospital's courtyard. But did you

21 see them anywhere around the hospital, across the street or near the MUP

22 building?

23 A. There was no way I could see them because I never left the

24 hospital compound throughout. My job was within the hospital compound and

25 I hardly ever left the hospital compound throughout those three months.

Page 3700

1 Q. Do you know about JNA soldiers being treated at the hospital?

2 A. Yes, I saw those myself.

3 Q. They were in a separate room, a special room and they were being

4 guarded, weren't they?

5 A. I don't know about them being guarded or being in some sort of a

6 special room. They were together with all the other patients. All I know

7 is that they were exceptionally scared because we Croats were all branded

8 as Ustashas by the Serbs and people were saying that we were slitting

9 their children's throats.

10 I know that they were treated well, in a fair manner, and I know

11 that what they eventually said is that if they had a say in it, they would

12 have chosen to stay right there and not go anywhere. However, your own

13 people took them back.

14 Q. Did you ever go to those rooms where these JNA soldiers were?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you say that you never saw any security detail outside their

17 rooms, no one standing guard, the rooms where the patients were, or next

18 to their beds?

19 A. That's not the way I remember it, but I can't be certain about

20 this, it's been 15 years, after all, and it wasn't something important

21 that I was watching out for. But I don't think there was any security

22 detail assigned there.

23 Q. Would you agree with me that on the 17th of November the shelling

24 of Vukovar and the hospital itself stopped?

25 A. Yes, I would. There was sporadic firing from rifles, that sort of

Page 3701

1 thing, but I think the shelling had stopped by then.

2 Q. What I be right in saying that a large number of people after

3 the 17th and the 18th started streaming towards the hospital from various

4 other parts of Vukovar?

5 A. Yes, I thought the building would just collapse, because the

6 corridors were packed with people. They believed at the time that the

7 safest place to take shelter was the hospital. Most of those people

8 streaming into the hospital were civilians.

9 Q. What about members of the National Guards Corps and the Ministry

10 of the Interior? Did they not do the same as most of the other citizens?

11 Did they not withdraw towards the hospital believing that to be the safest

12 place to be at that time?

13 A. I can't say because I didn't see this for myself. I do think

14 there were number of cases like that, but not too many. Not too many such

15 people arriving.

16 Q. They were discarding their weapons and uniforms and changing into

17 civilian clothes in order to not reveal their identity?

18 A. Yes, but this did not occur at the hospital. The only ones

19 discarding their uniforms and weapons at the hospital were the MUP people

20 who had been manning the check-points near the old building, the new

21 building and the hospital entrance. As for any others, I don't know.

22 It's a possibility they might have been changing their clothes, but I

23 wasn't there to see myself. Or there may have been people arriving from

24 outside, as you are suggesting. Once Vukovar had fallen, maybe somebody

25 arrived from outside and attempted to change into civilian clothes. But I

Page 3702

1 wasn't a member of the guards myself. And once the war had begun, I was

2 no longer leaving the hospital; therefore, I was in position to know

3 exactly what was going on in this respect.

4 Q. Thank you very much. In your statement you said that you gave the

5 MUP members who had changed their clothes some of your own clothes so that

6 they could have a full set of clothing on them. Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In your statement to the OTP back in 1995, did you say that ZNG

9 and MUP members or, rather, that the hospital staff gave them white

10 overcoats to put on? Did you say that in your statement?

11 A. That's just what you mentioned a while ago. So many people may

12 have come and changed their clothes, but I didn't know. I later on found

13 out some ZNG members had been given these clothes. All of us, even the

14 non-medical staff, were putting on white overcoats. That was what we had

15 been told to do. I did hear of a number of such cases, but not too many.

16 Q. Quite obviously their intention must have been to disguise their

17 identity and make themselves out to be medical staff in the hope that they

18 would thus be able to leave Vukovar and reach safety. Would you agree

19 with me on that one?

20 A. Yes, I would. That seems to be a very logical conclusion to me.

21 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that this order about putting on

22 white overcoats had been given by the hospital Crisis Staff, more

23 specifically Dr. Vesna Bosanac?

24 A. I cannot agree with you or deny this because I simply don't know.

25 It's certainly possible, but I don't know, therefore I can't confirm what

Page 3703

1 you are suggesting.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Are you familiar with these people, rather

3 their names? I'll ask you that first and ask you if you know if they were

4 members of the National Guards Corps. Emil Cakalic?

5 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that name. He used to work at the

6 hospital. After the hospital, he worked as a trade inspector with the

7 municipality. He was not a member of the National Guards Corps; I'm

8 positive about that. He was the president of the International Red Cross

9 of Vukovar.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it may a good idea to go

11 into private session now. I would like to ask the witness about a number

12 of persons.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

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Page 3704











11 Page 3704 redacted. Private session.















Page 3705

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, we are back in open session, Your Honours.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 Q. Do you know Tomo Jakovljevic? He was another hospital

6 employee.

7 A. Yes, I know him quite well. He was an old hand at hospital. I

8 had worked at the hospital for 31 years by this time.

9 Q. What happened to him before the fighting in Vukovar ended?

10 A. He was wounded, he lost a leg. His leg was amputated. Once he

11 had received treatment, he was ferried across to Borovo Komerc. I don't

12 know what happened later. I wasn't really in touch with Borovo Komerc.

13 Q. Did you not hear that Tomo Jakovljevic was killed there?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you very much. You told us yesterday --

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith?

17 MR. SMITH: Your Honours, it's just a little bit unclear who the

18 person is that the witness was talking about. On the transcript it -- the

19 name is not coming up correctly. It's page 60, line 1. And I was just

20 wondering whether the witness might be able to say it more slowly.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Could I say that is the case with many of the names

22 you used too in the transcript. We're hoping that later when the

23 transcript is checked that the names will come up more adequately.

24 MR. SMITH: Thank you. I will keep that in mind. Thank you, Your

25 Honour.

Page 3706

1 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Vasic.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. You testified that on the 19th you were informed about the

4 evacuation. Your name was put on the list by the persons in charge of

5 your group. Did you see those lists that were produced by the person in

6 charge of your group?

7 A. It wasn't just my name; it was all the people who worked in the

8 kitchen. As far as I remember -- I think I said Vesna Bosanac had come

9 over to see us, to tell us that the war was now over and that all would be

10 allowed to go wherever they chose to. Those who wanted to go to Serbia

11 would go to Serbia; those who wanted to go to Croatia would go to Croatia.

12 When lists were being produced, my name happened to be on the list of

13 people to go to Croatia.

14 Q. Thank you very much. This group that you have mentioned, the

15 kitchen group, as it were, all this time, the 19th and I think you left on

16 the 20th, were you there together throughout, through all this time, in

17 the kitchen and the rooms just adjacent to it?

18 A. Yes, for the most part.

19 Q. You testified that on the morning of the 20th you were making

20 breakfast. Were there other workers there, employees who were working

21 with you in the kitchen on that day?

22 A. Yes, all of us who were working in the kitchen were there on that

23 morning.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I must now deal with a

25 protected witness, and I think it's a good idea to ask the questions in

Page 3707

1 private session.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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Page 3708











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Page 3709

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in -- back in public session.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. My colleague asked you about a person by the name of Jozo Zeljko.

7 Was that person present at the barricade at Sajmiste towards Negoslavci

8 prior to the outbreak of the conflict? Do you know that?

9 A. I don't. As far as I know he was in the hospital throughout when

10 I was in the kitchen. And I came to the kitchen at the beginning of

11 October. I already found him there. At the time I know their house was

12 close by, but whether he was at the barricades, I don't know and I never

13 thought to ask. There was no need. As I said, I wasn't interested in who

14 was doing what. I was doing my job and praying God that the war be over.

15 Q. Thank you, I apologise. Today you mentioned that on the bus

16 returning to the hospital there were -- there were some 50 children, what

17 it was all about?

18 A. When we reached the barracks we were attacked. Also the same

19 thing happened when we went to that bus that was separated. The two men

20 attacked us, telling us we were Ustashas and that we called -- we killed

21 some 50 Serb children, and that was certainly untrue. As was proved

22 later, a journalist, a lady journalist filmed some dolls, pretending them

23 to be children, and we knew that such a number of children and women were

24 taken out of Vukovar much prior to that, so it was simply impossible.

25 Q. Who was the journalist?

Page 3710

1 A. She was Italian.

2 Q. I wish to clarify another thing. To my esteemed colleague's

3 question you spoke about the paramilitaries and the JNA members and that

4 you could tell them apart by the fact that the paramilitaries wore only

5 partial uniforms. But isn't it true that they wore the same uniforms?

6 A. No. Some of them had white ribbons, some had the cockades and

7 beards; whereas the regular army was clean-shaven and they looked like

8 proper army.

9 Q. I agree when you say that they were clean-shaven, but couldn't

10 some paramilitaries have pants or jackets or parts of uniforms on?

11 A. I don't know about the members of the TO. I may have mistaken

12 them for proper soldiers. To speak the truth, I never was in the

13 military, and I thought them soldiers, but they may have belonged to the

14 TO. I couldn't tell them apart. I thought they were representatives of

15 the legal -- of the proper army. They were neatly dressed and they

16 behaved properly.

17 Q. Thank you for your answers.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tried as best I could

19 to be brief. I have no further questions.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, you have done very well. We're

21 grateful.

22 I think in fairness to Mr. Borovic we might have the break now,

23 he's still got that happy knack, and we will continue at 10 minutes

24 to 6.00.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 3711

1 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Borovic:

6 Q. My name is Borivoje Borovic, attorney-at-law, counsel for

7 Mr. Radic. Good afternoon.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. My first question for the witness: Are you familiar with the fact

10 that there were some Zenga or Croatian National Guards Corps positions at

11 Mitnica?

12 A. Yes, I have learned that after the war. Before and during the

13 war, as I said, I was in the hospital and I had know idea who was doing

14 what.

15 Q. Thank you. This thing that you learned after the war, what can

16 you tell us about the actual positions? What did you find out?

17 A. At the border of the forest that we used to call Dubrava, that's

18 where the positions were.

19 Q. Can you tell us approximately how large was the position held by

20 Zenga?

21 A. As the crow flies, about 1.000 to 1500 metres.

22 Q. Thank you. Since you mentioned plane sorties, would you allow for

23 a possibility that they bombed those positions only?

24 A. No, I wouldn't allow for such a possibility. Because they threw

25 bombs some three to four kilometres away, as the crow flies.

Page 3712

1 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you said that you could distinguish between

2 the JNA soldiers, because they were neatly dressed and cleanly shaven, as

3 opposed to the territorial staff members and the paramilitaries who were

4 wearing beards and incomplete uniforms.

5 A. Yes, it is correct.

6 Q. The members of the Zengas you saw at the hospital, were they

7 cleanly shaved, were they in neat, clean uniforms?

8 A. They were cleanly shaved and in proper uniforms. They appeared

9 neat.

10 Q. Were they wearing complete uniforms?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. If I were to tell you that we saw a recording in the

13 courtroom presented by the OTP serving the purpose of recognising the

14 Zengas at Mitnica, and if I were to tell you that 90 per cent of them wore

15 sneakers, partial uniforms, some of them wore camouflage uniforms and

16 beards, would I succeed in changing your opinion, if that was true?

17 A. I wouldn't change my opinion, because those may not have been

18 members of the National Guards Corps. They may have been, as we used to

19 call them, civilian protection members. They may not have been members of

20 the Zengas, or they may have been volunteers, defending their city. Not

21 all of them were members of the National Guards Corps.

22 Q. Thank you. Did you hear of Filip Karaula?

23 A. Yes, I know him. He used to live close to where I lived, two

24 streets away.

25 Q. Thank you. What do you know about him? Who was he during the

Page 3713

1 combat operations?

2 A. I heard that later in Zagreb that he was one of the commanders at

3 Mitnica.

4 Q. Thank you. On the recordings I mentioned one could see Filip

5 Karaula and members of -- that he commanded over and one can see that they

6 wore untidy uniforms, they had beards. If I were to again tell you that

7 there were soldiers like that Karaula's group, would that change your

8 opinion?

9 A. No, not in entirety. Karaula may not have been a member of the

10 National Guards Corps. He may have been commander of the point or that

11 part of the line. There -- for example, a relative of mine, a woman, was

12 there where Karaula was, but she wasn't a member of the National Guards

13 Corps. She was a civilian defending her city.

14 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that Karaula may have commanded over

15 certain formations that were not part of the National Guards Corps?

16 A. I don't know, I wasn't there. I just heard he was one of the

17 commanders. And that's what I heard having arrived to Zagreb later on.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. Don't mention it.

20 Q. Since you are from Vukovar, I suppose you are quite familiar with

21 the town itself.

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. In close proximity to the Vukovar Hospital was there a tall

24 building dominating over the area?

25 A. The highest building was the high-rise at the -- at the station.

Page 3714

1 Q. How far was that from the hospital?

2 A. Some three to 400 metres away.

3 Q. Thank you. But closer to the hospital was there a tall building?

4 What was the highest building close to the hospital?

5 A. There was a multi-storey house across the street, Sapudle. Close

6 to the side entrance to the hospital. It may have had five storeys.

7 Q. Thank you. Could one see military positions of the Serb forces

8 from the roof of that house?

9 A. No. I suppose that -- no, no. One couldn't see that. One could

10 see the -- that from the top of the building that was 500 metres away.

11 One could see across the Danube they were shelling Vukovar from a place

12 called Rakijica, that's what one could see, but not further than that.

13 Q. Thank you. You described in detail Captain Sasa's and his group's

14 arrival.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. My question now pertains to the arrival of the military. Did you

17 see them coming? Did they come by foot or in armoured vehicles?

18 A. I didn't see that at all. From the main building they were led by

19 Bozo Riznic and two other people I don't know and he was taking them

20 towards the old building. That's the first time I saw him.

21 Q. Thank you. Do you know when Riznic's wife told the JNA members

22 where the National Guards Corps members hid weapons?

23 A. She told that to her husband and he brought them in. They both

24 worked at the hospital. When Vukovar fell, the husband took Captain Sasa

25 to the place where they changed clothing.

Page 3715

1 Q. Thank you. Was there a pile of sand in the hospital courtyard?

2 A. It wasn't quite a large pile. There was some sand. We used it to

3 fill the bags to protect windows and entrances.

4 Q. Thank you. In the containers inside the hospital compound, do you

5 know of any weapons being found there?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Do you know whether any arms were found underneath the sand?

8 A. I don't, but anything is possible. For example, your colleague

9 was questioning me about where they changed their clothes, but I couldn't

10 know who or which one of them was a National Guards Corps member or not.

11 I can't say. But I presume anything was possible.

12 Q. Thank you. When Mr. Vasic asked you, you described that in May

13 1991 that you were treated for a fortnight for some psychological symptoms

14 and that when you saw people brought in from Borovo Selo, those people

15 were wounded by the Croatian police that used fragmentation bullets.

16 Isn't that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is. I suppose that, of course.

18 Q. If that is not a problem, could you describe the shock. What is

19 it that you saw on those wounded Serbs and could you tell us their number?

20 A. Yes, I can. I was shocked because during the Second World War,

21 being a Croat, I used to live in Bosnia, and Chetniks called -- killed my

22 father and my mother died soon after. When I saw this, I realised that

23 the past is being repeated. I saw those massacred people and they looked

24 horrible. If a bullet came in through here, it simply blew apart the rest

25 of the body. It was very difficult to look at.

Page 3716

1 Q. Could you tell us how many massacres -- massacred Serbs did you

2 see, those injured by the fragmentation bullets, approximately?

3 A. I can't be certain. I saw five or six, and then I left, as I

4 wasn't needed there. I waited to see if I could help any, but as I

5 couldn't, I went home.

6 Q. Thank you. Who brought the sand into the courtyard?

7 A. Our -- it was brought on our truck by Bozo Riznic who was the

8 truck's driver at the time.

9 Q. Who brought the bags?

10 A. We filled the bags with sand in the hospital itself. They came

11 empty and we used the sand we had to fill the bags and put them against

12 windows.

13 Q. Thank you. Which floors did you cover with those bags?

14 A. The ground floor only. You can put it up as high as the first

15 floor. We covered the windows of the laboratory and the poly clinic, and

16 that was in -- in the bottom part of the new building. And as concerns

17 the old building, we protected the makeshift kitchen and the ophthalmology

18 department and -- to protect that from damage.

19 Q. Could you tell us what sort of damage you tried to protect it

20 against?

21 A. Damage resulting from shelling.

22 Q. You said you didn't serve your military term. But --

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. But could you tell us whether in your opinion one could use such a

25 shelter made of sandbags to fire upon the enemy?

Page 3717

1 A. Yes, it is possible. But we put those bags up all the way to the

2 top of the windows, so no one could use those windows for the purpose you

3 mentioned.

4 Q. All right. Thank you. Are you privy to the information that

5 fragmentation bullets were illegal then as they are now?

6 A. I know something about that, but since I was never in the

7 military, but when somebody would be brought in, for example, you could

8 see a small hole in the neck, and one would think it would be no problem

9 to extract it from the body, but then on the other side you would see the

10 great damage it did. And the people kept saying that it was fragmentation

11 bullets.

12 Q. Did you ever manage to learn where the Croatian police managed to

13 get those bullets from?

14 A. I never asked, so I never learned.

15 Q. Yesterday you said that at the end of August you brought the

16 members of your family to the hospital. Could you please repeat which

17 members exactly?

18 A. My wife, my two daughters, one was 22, the other one 18, and my

19 sister-in-law. We used to live in the same household.

20 Q. Did most of the physicians and nurses employed at the time bring

21 their family members to the hospital?

22 A. Yes, they did.

23 Q. In your case, it was five people. On average how many family

24 members would each of the employees bring to the hospital?

25 A. If we had a wife employed, she would bring her husband or the

Page 3718

1 other way around, plus the children.

2 Q. Thank you. Did many of the people bring relatives or parents?

3 A. No. Dr. Bosanac wouldn't allow that.

4 Q. I have a document that I don't think I'll be showing you, and I'm

5 in a hurry somewhat because of the fact that you have to leave today.

6 I've been skipping some of my questions. I will try to use what questions

7 I have to verify the authenticity of these documents so that I can show

8 them as a later stage.

9 During your employment, were there 40 doctors working at the

10 hospital during all these events in Vukovar?

11 A. During the war, you mean?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I'm not sure if the figure was 40, but it strikes me as probable.

14 It's very likely.

15 Q. What about the medical staff, and I mean nurses, male nurses,

16 female nurses and everybody else, were there about 100 medical staff at

17 the hospital at the time?

18 A. Yes, that sounds right.

19 Q. What about those who manned the equipment, the technicians? Were

20 there eight of those?

21 A. Let me see if I can remember. One, two, three, four, five --

22 thereabouts, yes. That sounds right.

23 Q. Thank you. How many people who worked in the plaster room,

24 plaster technicians?

25 A. As far as I know, there were three of them. Rather two, the third

Page 3719

1 person was an ethnic Serb and she left. Those still remaining were Marko

2 Mandic and Zlatko Jurcevic [phoen] as far as I know.

3 Q. Thank you. What about Ante Aric?

4 A. Ante Aric, no. He was a paramedic. He would administer

5 injections, that sort of thing. Some sort of a male nurse, you might say.

6 Q. How many people worked in the food supplies units? About 10 or

7 so?

8 A. Yes. I would say between 10 and 12.

9 Q. Thank you very much. What about the technical services units?

10 You mentioned some of those people while testifying in chief. Were there

11 about 20 of those working at the hospital?

12 A. Yes, that sounds right.

13 Q. Thank you. What about the hospital's drivers? Were there 13 of

14 those at the time?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. What about the role that Tomislav Bosanac played at

17 the time, if any?

18 A. Tomislav Bosanac, I saw him about twice in the hospital. And his

19 role was to patch up the shattered windows. The -- the cluster bomb that

20 shattered the windows on both sides of the hospital, his role was to mend

21 those with nylon, to cover those.

22 Q. Were there, in fact, about 10 such people who were doing that sort

23 of job at the hospital?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How many then?

Page 3720

1 A. There was my brother and perhaps -- another person was in charge

2 of jobs like these.

3 Q. Thank you. Were there 24 cleaning ladies employed by the hospital

4 at the time?

5 A. Yes. I should assume so. I can't be 100 per cent certain about

6 this, but there were a number of cleaning ladies. Each unit had its own

7 cleaning lady, and their task was to bring in all the meals and to tidy up

8 afterwards.

9 Q. Thank you. What about administrators? Did the hospital have

10 administrators at the time and were there about 20 of those would you say?

11 A. There were administrators there. They would attend a call-up

12 every morning. They would report to Dr. Bosanac. They would prepare our

13 salaries, but it wasn't proper accounting as we know it.

14 Q. There's no reason to go into any detail now. I don't think we

15 have the time to do that.

16 Yesterday you mentioned some sort of a security detail at the

17 hospital. Would you care to tell us how many people it consisted of, how

18 many people working on security?

19 A. A total of six that I'm aware of. Two in the old building, and

20 both happened to be called Ivan; their first names were Ivan. Securing

21 the main entrance where the Crisis Staff was, we had two persons. One was

22 called Perkan and the other I didn't know. And there were two others at

23 reception, securing the reception area.

24 Q. What about Tomislav Perkovic? Is this the Perkan that you have

25 just mentioned?

Page 3721

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. What about Goran Baketa? Was he one of the security

3 officers there?

4 A. I don't know. I don't know.

5 Q. Miroslav Kosir?

6 A. I knew him. He worked at reception.

7 Q. Tomislav Baumgertner?

8 A. I don't know. I didn't see him at the hospital at any time. I do

9 know the person, but I didn't see him at the hospital.

10 Q. Nikola Pinter?

11 A. Nikola Pinter, nicknamed Pinso [phoen]. He was security at

12 reception as well.

13 Q. Jozo Zeljko, Josip Lovranic?

14 A. Yes, yes. Jozo Zeljko and Jozo Lovranic would occasionally be

15 told to -- because they worked in the kitchen, both of them, but sometimes

16 they would be told to go and help with the hospital security.

17 Q. Thank you. Branko Lukenda?

18 A. Branko Lovranic, I remember him. He was from the police. He

19 recorded all the deaths, all the people who were killed.

20 Q. Thank you. What about Tomislav Hegedus?

21 A. Same answer.

22 Q. What precisely?

23 A. He was another person from the police. I'm not sure what his

24 assignment was. He was some sort of an inspector, but I'm not sure what

25 his specific job was.

Page 3722

1 I know about the previous one. He was recording all the deaths,

2 all the people who were killed and all those who were wounded.

3 Q. Thank you very much. I have just listed 11 people providing

4 security for the hospital. Would you agree that there were about 11 of

5 those?

6 A. I don't know that Lukenda was a member of the security detail he

7 was not carrying any weapons, nor was Hegedus for that matter. They were

8 some sort of administrators, admin staff there, and they were recording

9 stuff, who was killed, who died, that sort of thing. I don't even know

10 what Hegedus was really doing. I know that he was not carrying a weapon.

11 He was carrying that -- sort of a duffel bag or something.

12 Q. Thank you very much. What about those others? They were all

13 carrying weapons, weren't they?

14 A. Yes, they were.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. But you mentioned Bainrauch, and I'm positive that he was not at

17 the hospital. I'm certain about that.

18 Q. Thank you. What about any doctors who knew about Vukovar who were

19 familiar with the town's layout but were not, in fact, natives? How many

20 of those were sent to the hospital?

21 A. From Zagreb, you mean, or from other places?

22 Q. Yeah, that sort of thing.

23 A. About five or six of those.

24 Q. Thank you. Finally, I would like to ask you something about the

25 hospital employees. Was there any sort of help at the hospital, people

Page 3723

1 who had come from Nasice?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was about help sent from Vinkovci?

4 A. Yes, but I don't know how many. I know that Dr. Kolak came, and I

5 think a lady doctor arrived too. I'm not sure about that lady doctor.

6 I'm not sure if she was from Vinkovci. I have no idea where she came

7 from, but it wasn't Zagreb. That I'm certain about.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Based on some documents in the possession of

9 the Defence team and based on the information you have just provided, this

10 would seem to indicate that there was a total of about 330 employees at

11 the hospital in all kinds of various jobs during the war in Vukovar.

12 Would that seem to make sense to you?

13 A. 330, you say? I wouldn't reckon that there were that many people.

14 What you said about the nurses. I'm not sure what you said about the

15 cleaning ladies. What was your figure?

16 Q. Sir, I did do my own calculations, but I wouldn't go into that

17 now.

18 A. 330. I think that's -- that's too many. I don't think your

19 calculation is accurate.

20 Q. I'll just go straight through this as quickly as I can because we

21 don't have the time to go through it more thoroughly.

22 You said about 40 doctors. You confirmed that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Three doctors who came from elsewhere, 103 help workers, eight

25 technicians, three plaster technicians, three anaesthesiologists?

Page 3724

1 A. You're confusing things there. Anaesthesiologists and medical

2 technicians, these are different kinds of nurse, but they did different

3 jobs.

4 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. I obviously very much

5 appreciate the speed at which the learned counsel is going, but I think

6 it's just going just a fraction too fast at the moment. It's getting a

7 bit confusing, I think, for the witness.

8 JUDGE PARKER: The witness is in -- under control. What he is

9 presently pointing out, Mr. Borovic, is that you are listing people in two

10 different occupations. There is only one person. You're getting down to

11 specialties within a broader group and he's given you the number of

12 broader group.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour, that's

14 right.

15 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... difficulty

16 getting above 250 on your figures, if that helps.

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Let's ask

18 the witness to give his own assessment so we don't do any more math here.

19 Q. Altogether, including the help that arrived from Zagreb, Nasice

20 and Vinkovci, what would you say was the total of people at the Vukovar

21 Hospital throughout these three months?

22 A. Between 200 and 250 at most. Because you've duplicated some of

23 the positions. The anaesthetist, all the plaster technicians, and all the

24 nurses. This is all trained medical staff, but you have given us the

25 figure of 100 nurses. You have duplicated the people's jobs and positions

Page 3725

1 there.

2 Q. That's right, I agree with you. But they all had family members

3 staying there. Would you say there were about 500 people who found

4 shelter at the hospital at the time who weren't patients?

5 A. As far as I remember, when I testified in chief, I said there were

6 about 30.

7 Q. 30 what?

8 A. 30 husbands. 30 husbands, because only males came to the

9 hospital.

10 Q. We don't have any time, unfortunately. I would like to delve

11 further into this, but unfortunately we have information in writing but

12 this which we shall be submitting to the Chamber as evidence later on.

13 Thank you for your assistance in this matter, sir. I think this

14 is sufficient, but I'm nearing the end of my cross-examination, and I

15 would like to move on to my most important question, the most important

16 question that I have prepared.

17 What I have to say is this, sir: You testified yesterday that

18 that evening with Bozo Riznic, a member of the JNA appeared, a person you

19 called Captain Sasa but you don't quite finish saying what you had started

20 out to say. You didn't quite say the same thing as you did in your

21 statement to the OTP. Therefore, I would like usher's assistance, please,

22 to show the witness this statement. I've underlined the relevant portions

23 so you don't have to look for it. There's a part that's underlined in

24 red. Could you please just go through it carefully.

25 Could you please be so kind as to read this out live for the

Page 3726

1 benefit of the Chamber?

2 A. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 What it says here is: "I saw him on the video, 100 Days of

9 Vukovar, Vukovar must fall tonight."

10 I saw him when I saw the tape, 100 Days of Vukovar. He made a

11 gesture like this. I recognised him. He waved his hand and said, Vukovar

12 must fall tonight.

13 There you have it.

14 Q. Thank you. Something else you said yesterday, you said that after

15 this you left, and you sang that patriotic song, that's the way you put

16 it, I believe, with your friends. After a while Captain Sasa appeared

17 again with two persons you believed to be Chetniks, right, Vojnovic and

18 Bogdan Kuzmic. You provided a detailed description of Kuzmic's actions,

19 what he was doing, what he was telling you, and what they were doing

20 around the hospital. I'm not going into that again. Would that seem to

21 be fair?

22 A. Yes. I do have one correction. That's probably an error there.

23 It's an oversight by both the OTP and myself. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3727

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted) I'm not sure what he was, but he was

3 certainly no Chetnik because he didn't have any of the Chetnik insignia on

4 him.

5 Q. But you do confirm that the second time around Captain Sasa was

6 accompanied by Kuzmic and they did all the things that you described

7 yesterday. Isn't that right?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we please now play

11 a portion of that video from the 65 ter list? The number is

12 V000-1273-1-A. It's a very brief video. It's several seconds long, no

13 more.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Can we pause

16 right there, please, and freeze this image on the screen.

17 Q. Have you seen this?

18 A. Yes, I have.

19 Q. Is this the tape you're talking about, 100 Days of Vukovar?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is this the captain you talked about, Sasa? Do you recognise the

22 man?

23 A. Yes, that's him.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a commander of

Page 3728

1 the 1st Company, Sasa Bojkovski or Bojkovic [as interpreted] Katca

2 [phoen]. That was his last name.

3 Thank you. I have no further questions. I would just like to

4 tender this into evidence, the brief footage that I've just shown the

5 witness.

6 Thank you

7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

8 THE REGISTRAR: This brief footage will be exhibit number 171,

9 Your Honours.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Bulatovic -- sorry,

11 Mr. Borovic.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe the name is

13 not recorded properly. Sasa Bojkovski, Sasa Bojkovski. Today his family

14 name is Bojkovic. Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

16 Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good evening, Your Honours.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

19 Q. Good evening, sir.

20 A. Good evening.

21 Q. I'm Novak Lukic, attorney-at-law. I will ask you questions on

22 behalf of Veselin Sljivancanin's defence. I will be asking you questions,

23 so I'm checking my watch all the time. We're really doing our best

24 because we are told that you have reasons why you would like to finish

25 today. I'll try to go through my questions as quickly as possible.

Page 3729

1 Almost all that I will be asking you about is a number of things that

2 happened on the 20th of November.

3 I have my first group of questions which are likely to elicit yes

4 or no answers, just to be as efficient as possible, please. I'm talking

5 about the 20th of November, and the first thing that I will say is I will

6 try to sum up what you said in chief yesterday.

7 You said you headed for the hospital exit at about 9.00 in the

8 morning. You said you were among the last to board the bus. Isn't that a

9 fact?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On your way you passed the plaster room, you drew that for us

12 today, and you saw with your own eyes my client, Mr. Sljivancanin, holding

13 a meeting with the hospital's medical staff. Is that a fact?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. We've heard evidence before this Trial Chamber about how people

16 were searched. Can you please just confirm if I'm correct in saying that

17 it was regular JNA soldiers that searched you on your way out of the

18 hospital?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. They searched you for weapons, sharp objects, that sort of thing?

21 A. I don't know what they were looking for, but they went through my

22 luggage. I had been given a carton of cigarettes on that day and they

23 took half my cigarettes away.

24 Q. Did they take any of your money or any of your personal documents?

25 A. No.

Page 3730

1 Q. What I want to know is: Did they search your group, the group

2 standing outside the kitchen or that had just left the kitchen, and did

3 you find other people at exit there who they were searching at the time?

4 A. I don't know. I did say, I did point out on several occasions

5 that we were among the last to leave the building and all the buses had

6 already been filled. I wasn't able to see that, but I should assume that

7 everybody had been searched on their way out.

8 Q. That is beyond dispute, but I wish to know is once you reached the

9 door to be searched were other people being searched there already, or was

10 the area empty with all the people already on the buses. Isn't that what

11 you're telling us?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you specify how long these searches took as you were being

14 searched? How long that take?

15 A. Two or three minutes. Perhaps not even that long.

16 Q. Once you reached the bus, how long did it take between the point

17 in time you got on to the bus and the time the buses eventually left?

18 A. Since we were about the last to get there, I think it must have

19 been around five or six minutes.

20 Q. Perhaps you didn't say this, perhaps it's something I read in your

21 statement, but can you please confirm: This bus that you got on, the last

22 bus, was a military bus with wooden benches and it was packed?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You saw my client, Mr. Sljivancanin, in the plaster room on your

25 way out, and you saw him again when you returned to the hospital. Would

Page 3731

1 that seem to be a fair assessment?

2 A. Yes. When I came back to the hospital, I saw him twice.

3 Q. Can I therefore conclude that you did not see him at the barracks?

4 A. No, I didn't.

5 Q. Do you remember just before the buses left along the same line in

6 Gunduliceva Street, were there any medical vehicles, ambulances or

7 lorries?

8 A. I don't remember, but I don't think so. I was focussing on the

9 buses, the bus that I was to get on myself. I wasn't exactly looking to

10 be quite honest. Maybe there were some and maybe there weren't. I can't

11 say.

12 Q. Do you remember perhaps seeing someone lying on a stretcher

13 outside the hospital at this point in time?

14 A. No, I'm positive there wasn't anyone like that there.

15 Q. I'd like to move on to the barracks, I have several questions

16 about the barracks now.

17 You said today and yesterday while testifying, that was my

18 understanding at least, that in this group standing outside the buses

19 there were about 100 people, paramilitaries who arrived, local

20 paramilitaries, as you've described them. You did not see any JNA

21 officers among them, did you?

22 My question is: From your place on the bus, were you able to see

23 if anywhere around the barracks, in the general barracks area, there were

24 any JNA officers from where you were?

25 A. I would have been able to see, but what I saw were not JNA

Page 3732

1 officers. They were JNA soldiers, regular soldiers, mingling with the

2 paramilitaries, as I've called them.

3 Q. Would anyone have been able to get on or off the bus while you

4 were on the bus?

5 A. No. Because each of the buses were guarded by a soldier.

6 Q. What I understand is your time on the bus, within the barracks,

7 and then you going to that different bus and then this entire time that it

8 took you to leave the barracks, that took between 45 minutes and one hour.

9 Would that seem to be a fair assessment?

10 A. Yes, roughly speaking, even less, perhaps.

11 Q. Were these persons waiting for you already when you arrived in the

12 barracks on the buses or did they just appear from somewhere once you got

13 there?

14 A. They were appearing from all sides. They were coming from

15 somewhere, I don't know, because they weren't there when we got there.

16 Q. These attacks against the buses, if that's what I should call

17 them, ceased after about 10 or 15 minutes. Isn't that right?

18 A. Yes. When the military person appeared, he appeared to have been

19 a high-ranking officer of the JNA because he got a lot of respect, and

20 then suddenly everything grew quiet.

21 Q. In addition to the fact that everything became very peaceful and

22 quiet at once, did they stay in the area after you had left the barracks?

23 A. Yes, they stayed there. With the exception of those two who got

24 on to the buses, Milan Bulic, and the blond lad I mentioned. He was from

25 a village somewhere around Vukovar. I just know that he was blond.

Page 3733

1 That's all I know.

2 Q. There are two different things that I have to confront you with

3 now, different things that you said today and yesterday. These are

4 important details for us, so maybe it would be better off if you just said

5 that you were uncertain about this. But there seems to be a discrepancy

6 and please try to be as precise as you can.

7 You said yesterday that there were about 100 of those, that there

8 were paramilitaries there, but that some members of the JNA were also in

9 that group. Today you told us that the only people attacking the buses

10 were paramilitaries.

11 My question is: Did you see any JNA soldiers, what you take that

12 to mean, JNA soldiers, attacking the buses and banging on the buses?

13 A. I think you misunderstood what I said. What I said is that they

14 formed a gauntlet, the paramilitaries did. As for the regular soldiers,

15 the people who I believed to be regular soldiers wearing proper olive-drab

16 uniforms, were acting in a fair and respectful manner. They were standing

17 some distance from us and they no part in this whole thing.

18 Q. That was precisely what you said yesterday, but I had the

19 impression that you said differently yesterday. So I'm glad we've managed

20 to clear this up now.

21 You did not do a regular military term with the JNA. That's what

22 you will told us today. Can you tell us, would you be familiar with the

23 appearance of a regular military policeman? Have you ever seen a military

24 police officer?

25 A. To be quite frank, I don't know what they look like. I've never

Page 3734

1 been much interested, to be quite frank. I'm not sure what else to say.

2 Q. Apart from the beating while running the gauntlet, was anyone else

3 taken off the bus that you saw in order to be beaten?

4 A. No, I didn't see anyone being taken off the bus in order to be

5 beaten, but there were people who were beaten on the bus, specifically on

6 our bus.

7 Q. You said you succeeded in protecting yourself or guarding yourself

8 with that suitcase that you were carrying. Can you tell us about any

9 injuries you sustained?

10 A. I did not sustain any major severe injuries because on my other

11 side there was my nephew, and on the one side I was being sheltered by the

12 suitcase and on the other side there was my nephew, so you could say I got

13 away somehow. I did receive several blows but not really severe ones.

14 Q. I apologise in advance to the interpreters. I do realise that I'm

15 trying to speed things up a great deal. You said that at one point the

16 sixth bus arrived and this bus drove you back. Was it empty at the time

17 it arrived?

18 A. Yes, the bus was entirely empty. There was only the driver and

19 there was this young lad, young conscript whom I have described already.

20 Q. Were you able to see it from the bus on which you were? Could you

21 see this other bus arriving from your seat in your -- on your bus?

22 A. No, because nobody was expecting that bus to arrive. We were

23 watching the other buses to figure out who was there, and we were mindful

24 of the people around our bus threatening us. I didn't realise that this

25 other bus had arrived, and the distance between our bus and the other bus

Page 3735

1 when it arrived was 30 metres.

2 Q. May I therefore conclude that you only noticed this new bus that

3 had just arrived once you got off the bus?

4 A. Yes, that precisely was the case.

5 Q. You described for us today about this soldier and the incident on

6 the bus which you were driven back. You said he looked very young to you

7 and quite intimidated. But if I understood you correctly, he did not, in

8 fact, give Bulic his rifle when he asked for the rifle to drink some

9 Croatian blood, did he?

10 A. Yes. But Bulic was not very adamant about being given the rifle.

11 It was something that he said more as some sort of a knee-jerk reaction,

12 "Give me that rifle so I can kill some Croats." I don't think he really

13 meant what he said.

14 Q. Do you perhaps remember where your seat was on that bus that drove

15 you back to the barracks?

16 A. It was towards the rear of the bus.

17 Q. When the bus started moving where was that soldier?

18 A. Bulic was at the entrance to the bus as well as the blond guy and

19 they were mistreating Jozo Zeljko.

20 Q. From the place where you were, you could neither confirm nor deny

21 with any degree of certainty whether that soldier tried to prevent them

22 from boarding the bus?

23 A. I cannot. When we came, Bulidza happened to be on that bus. I

24 don't know how, but he was on the bus, and the blond guy. He was using

25 his legs to hit us, holding on to the bars.

Page 3736

1 Q. The other buses remained inside the compound or the barracks?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. At the moment when you were on those buses or at the moment when

4 you were leaving the barracks, did you see a van or some other vehicle

5 come in?

6 A. I didn't. I may have, but I didn't think about that. I wasn't

7 interested. I was afraid, because we were told that we were going to be

8 put before the firing squad.

9 Q. I'm only asking things that you can remember. Please don't

10 speculate.

11 A. All right.

12 Q. To go back to your return to the hospital, then you did not speak

13 with my client. It was the lady who asked to speak to him?

14 A. Yes, that is correct.

15 Q. As I understood, and I believe you said that in your prior

16 statements, that some guarantees were to be given that the people employed

17 at the hospital did not participate in the combat activities?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Therefore, I conclude that then you were asked about whether any

20 of you participated in any way in the combat activities?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. Could you wait for my question and give me some time to turn off

23 the microphone.

24 A. I apologise, I forgot.

25 Q. Were you all lined up in front of the bus or were you all waiting

Page 3737

1 on the bus to see whether you would go back to the hospital or not?

2 A. We were all on the bus. And I mentioned that there was a soldier

3 guarding the entrance to the bus.

4 Q. That's what I conclude too, but you said that you knocked on the

5 window of Gordana Bosnic?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. One thing remains unclear from your testimony today in chief, and

8 that's when I gave my objection. As you said today on page 15: She said

9 that she will go and tell Sljivancanin about you.

10 A. Yes. As well as for -- about my brother and nephew.

11 Q. And when the Prosecutor asked you whether she did that you said

12 that when you came out you received information that she actually did

13 that.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you said that at the same time you saw Mr. Sljivancanin. You

16 didn't mention whether you saw her speak with him?

17 A. That's a mistake. I said I saw Mr. Sljivancanin when I came off

18 the bus. I had to go all the way to the other side of the street, to Ivo

19 Lola Ribar Street. That's when I saw Mr. Sljivancanin. I didn't see him

20 talk to her.

21 Q. So he wasn't in front of the bus?

22 A. Only at the beginning, immediately upon our arrival. And thanks

23 to Mr. Sljivancanin, many were able to leave because some nurses spoke

24 with him and he allowed some men to come out.

25 Q. Thank you. Do you know of a Dr. Stanojevic?

Page 3738

1 A. Of course.

2 Q. Was he somewhere in -- close to the buses?

3 A. Yes, Dr. Stanojevic and Dr. Manojlovic. I was in good -- on good

4 terms with both of them, and since my wife was not one of the medical

5 staff and she couldn't talk to Mr. Sljivancanin about letting me go, I

6 asked Dr. Stanojevic and Dr. Manojlovic to assist me to say that I worked

7 in the hospital and that I did not carry any arms. They said they would,

8 but then they left and never returned.

9 Q. Can you remember whether next to them or in their environs was

10 there a colonel?

11 A. You know I was never in the military. I don't -- couldn't tell a

12 colonel from anyone else.

13 Q. I should have known that you would be unable to respond. But did

14 Wilhelm Rudolf tell you how he managed to get off the bus?

15 A. I saw him get off. His wife asked Dr. Stanojevic to intervene and

16 he got him off the bus. And then after Wilhelm Rudolf, I asked

17 Dr. Stanojevic to help me as well, but things went as they did.

18 Q. That's why I'm asking, because Dr. Rudolf claims that

19 Dr. Stanojevic spoke to a colonel who then transmitted the message to

20 Dr. -- to Mr. Sljivancanin.

21 A. That is possible, but I can't distinguish between military rank.

22 Q. On page 18 today you said that Anica Sila advised you of her

23 conversation concerning Adzaga Zeljko?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. In your statement to the OTP and in your testimony in the prior

Page 3739

1 case you said that your -- your wife went there, that she was some 50

2 metres away?

3 A. Yes, but I wanted to keep it brief. Anica Sila was the main

4 person to speak with Mr. Sljivancanin. And Jozo Zeljko's wife as well as

5 my wife were some 50 metres away from Mr. Sljivancanin. I didn't want to

6 go into all the detail.

7 Q. Hence my question. Who told you this, your wife or Anica Sila?

8 A. Anica Sila told us what happened when she spoke with

9 Mr. Sljivancanin. And my wife didn't tell me that. It was Anica Sila who

10 told that to my wife and to Mrs. Zeljko. Mrs. Dragica Zeljko.

11 Q. By the end of the examination-in-chief you spoke about what you

12 know about four people who were returned to the bus. Therefore, today we

13 learned of Mr. Adzaga, that is, prior to the war he wasn't employed with

14 the hospital or, rather, he began working at the hospital during the war?

15 A. He was mobilised to work at the hospital.

16 Q. Mato Vlaho was also mobilised to work there?

17 A. I didn't say that. I don't know whether he was mobilised or

18 whether he came of his own accord. There was a shortage of drivers, and

19 he reported to Mrs. Bosanac and she gave him the job.

20 Q. But before the war, he did not work at the hospital?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Zeljko Josip, Jozo, you said that he worked at Velepromet before

23 the war?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Slobodan, who worked at the gas station, did he do anything at the

Page 3740

1 hospital during the war?

2 A. Slobodan from the gas station? I never mentioned that person.

3 Q. You didn't, but there was a mention of Slobodan who returned to

4 the bus who worked at the Jugopetrol gas station?

5 A. He didn't return. He never got off. He was on the bus, and they

6 said he killed a Serb local known as Jovo Rakijica.

7 Q. Yes, that's what I read in your statement. Was he doing anything

8 at the hospital during the war?

9 A. No. I don't know how he came to be there. As asked by your

10 previous colleague, when he asked whether it was possible that some of

11 them changed clothing, I admitted that there may have been such a

12 possibility and this could be the case as well. He worked at Jugopetrol.

13 That's how I know him.

14 Q. The people I mentioned who worked at the hospital during the war,

15 do you know whether they had hospital ID during the war?

16 A. Yes, they did. The same as I did. And the administrator,

17 Nedeljko Vojnovic, I mentioned, sent this ID to me because it remained

18 behind in my office desk, but I didn't know I was to show this to anyone.

19 Had I been able to do that, I probably never would have ended up at the

20 barracks because many people showed their IDs and they didn't go there.

21 But, on the other hand, there were some who showed there IDs but were sent

22 there nonetheless.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we move into private session,

24 please

25 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

Page 3741

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in public session, Your Honour.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Did any of those people, and I have in mind those who remained on

23 board, wear a white overcoat?

24 A. Most of them did. I know that Marko Vlaho and Miroslav Vlaho

25 as well as Jozo Zeljko and Adzaga Jozo, they all had white overcoats. I

Page 3742

1 am quite certain of that.

2 Q. They were the technical staff rather than the medical staff of the

3 hospital?

4 A. Yes. They were one of the services of the hospital.

5 Q. (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I wanted to read the entire portion.

13 A. But somebody asked me whether the staff --

14 Q. You are listening to the interpretation of what I am reading in

15 English. And this is the part referring to the convoy, which left the

16 hospital later on during the afternoon.

17 "[In English] ... in the convoy.

18 "Question: Yes, in the buses were in the convoy."

19 Your answer: "No, no, no. They were wearing civilian clothes,

20 and we all had white overcoats when we were taken to the military

21 barracks."

22 A. That is correct. We all had white overcoats. And when we came to

23 the barracks, Bulidza and the paramilitaries forced us to take off the

24 overcoats. They said, "You're no medical staff, you're no physicians."

25 They simply ripped the overcoats off.

Page 3743

1 Q. Thank you. Just a few remaining questions.

2 Yesterday during examination-in-chief you said something that

3 intrigued me quite and I would ask for some clarification. You said that

4 the military offered people to go to Zagreb, to Croatia, or to Serbia if

5 they wanted to and that they can stay in Vukovar if they want that. Can

6 you remember that?

7 A. No, I don't. I remember that they offered those who wanted to

8 stay in the hospital to remain there to keep on working. That pertained

9 to the medical staff.

10 Q. I'm particularly interested in that. Can you remember who made

11 that offer, that proposal?

12 A. I can't remember, and I don't want to speculate because that is a

13 serious matter.

14 Q. You know Mara Bucko?

15 A. Yes, I do so. And himself and another person --

16 Q. And himself and another person went with you on the convoy?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you want to go to Croatia?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Thank you. I have just one remaining question. And maybe I won't

21 even have to wait for your entire answer.

22 This Riznic person you keep mentioning, did he remain to work at

23 the hospital until the end?

24 A. Yes, he did. Even in the so-called Krajina, when we left, he

25 stayed there. He kept on working in the hospital. But I heard that his

Page 3744

1 wife, since she was Croatian, was not given a job.

2 Q. Therefore, on the 19th, when the JNA and the rest came into the

3 hospital, at that moment he was a hospital worker?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Hence my logical question. Yesterday when the Prosecutor asked

6 you as to how you gained that impression, that Sasa was commanding over

7 the Chetniks who accompanied him, you said, Well, he told Riznic to give

8 me cigarettes, and I don't see the logic. I don't see how that proves

9 their relationship.

10 A. That's because he had cigarettes with him and that was -- I was

11 not the only one who received a pack of cigarettes but also the people who

12 were there with me. And when I asked him, "What sort of liberators are

13 you, what did you do to our city," then he pointed to the Chetniks. He

14 said, "They did it," and they simply laughed it. And Riznic was showing

15 Captain Sasa around because after that he went to the washing room to show

16 where the arms were stored.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I believe I

18 was rather quick.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

20 Mr. Smith, is there any re-examination?

21 MR. SMITH: Just one question.

22 Re-examination by Mr. Smith:

23 Q. Witness, in answer to my friend's question a moment ago, you said

24 that the JNA soldiers at the barracks were mingling with the

25 paramilitaries. Do you know what they were doing when you were running

Page 3745

1 through the gauntlet with the other -- with the other men?

2 A. They stood by and they observed what was happening.

3 Q. And about how many of them were there?

4 A. Not many. As far as I can see, with all the panic and fear, I'd

5 say not more than 10.

6 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Smith.

8 Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is no longer a question, because

10 I have concluded my examination, but I wanted to ask the Bench to do the

11 following: Please bear in mind this summary and paragraph 2 of the OTP

12 concerning this witness and what they claimed this witness would be

13 testifying about. That's all for now. And I will pose this question to

14 my colleagues from the OTP as to what they meant by that sentence, because

15 after the replies given by the statement, I find this sentence rather

16 confusing.

17 JUDGE PARKER: We don't take those summaries into account as

18 evidence, you realise. They are to help you.

19 You will be pleased to know, sir, that with a great deal of speed,

20 counsel have managed to complete their questions of you, and they've done

21 that so as to enable you to be finished tonight so that you can return to

22 your home. You will be pleased to know all the questions have now

23 concluded. The Chamber would like to thank you for coming to The Hague

24 and for the assistance that you've given us, and of course when we rise

25 you will be free to leave and go back to your home.

Page 3746

1 We would thank counsel very much for their cooperation today.

2 Maybe it's an indication of things we can accomplish in the future as

3 well. It was ideal.

4 We will now adjourn and resume on Monday at 2.15.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may, Your Honours, I'd like to

6 thank the attorneys for their understanding and for speeding things up. I

7 really need to go because I have an important medical check-up on Monday,

8 as I am ill. Thank you.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, sir.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of

12 February, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.