Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3905

1 Wednesday, 8 February 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Would you please take the card

7 that's given to you now and read aloud the affirmation that is on it?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down. Mr. Smith will first be asking

10 you some questions and then other counsel may have some questions for you.

11 But we'll start with Mr. Smith.

12 Yes, Mr. Smith.

13 MR. SMITH: Good afternoon, Your Honours.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examination by Mr. Smith:

17 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

18 Witness, we're going to be talking about an event that occurred

19 back in 1991 today. And can we go back to, say, January 1991 in Vukovar

20 can you tell the court basically what life was like?

21 A. Quite an ordinary life, the situation was all right, everything

22 functioned properly, we all attended school, people went to their work.

23 Q. And you were going to school at that time?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And how old were you?

Page 3906

1 A. I was 14.

2 Q. And who were you living with at that time?

3 A. I lived with my parents.

4 Q. And where were you living?

5 A. In the centre of the city in the family house.

6 Q. And about how far is that house from the River Danube?

7 A. It is on the banks of the Danube.

8 Q. And you life was normal early in 1991. When was the first time

9 that you remember that life started to change for you?

10 A. It started to change after the shooting, that is the incident with

11 the Croatian policemen in Borovo Selo in May of 1991.

12 Q. And about that time what jobs were your mom and dad doing?

13 A. My mother was a housewife, and my father was a private

14 entrepreneur.

15 Q. And after that incident in Borovo Selo, did life go back to

16 normal?

17 A. People kept going about their business, although they were a bit

18 afraid of what may happen, but the life went about as usual.

19 Q. And when you said they thought about what may happen, did anything

20 happen significant after that?

21 A. Nothing very significant until the beginning of August when

22 shelling began and the air-raids, and that's when life changed.

23 Q. And when you first noticed that the shelling had begun, can you

24 tell the Court what parts of Vukovar were being shelled?

25 A. The centre of the city. It was the first to be shelled.

Page 3907

1 Q. And do you know who was doing the shelling?

2 A. The Yugoslav army.

3 Q. And do you know where they were shelling from?

4 A. They were attacking by aircraft and they were shelling from the

5 other side of the Danube.

6 Q. From your house, could you see the other side of the Danube?

7 A. From the courtyard, because it is on the banks of the Danube and

8 then one can see the other side.

9 Q. And what -- you said the shelling occurred on the other side of

10 the Danube. What did you see on the other side?

11 A. We saw barrels. I don't know whether those were tanks or

12 something else. But we saw that they were firing from those barrels.

13 Q. And did you stay -- ones the shelling had begun, did you stay at

14 your house on the Danube, or did you move somewhere else?

15 A. Since we were exposed, my father thought it was dangerous for us

16 to stay. That's why we moved to our apartment in a different part of the

17 city.

18 Q. And when did you move to that apartment, approximately?

19 A. By the end of August or early September.

20 Q. And at that stage was there any damage done to your house or had

21 you moved before any damage occurred?

22 A. A part of the house had already been damaged, and we could not go

23 on living there. That's why we moved as well.

24 Q. And what was the nature of that damage on the house?

25 A. By shelling. Some shells hit; one hit the courtyard, and another

Page 3908

1 one hit a part of the house.

2 Q. And when you moved to your apartment block, how long did you stay

3 there?

4 A. We stayed there until we went to the Vukovar Hospital.

5 Q. And do you remember what date, approximately, you went to the

6 Vukovar Hospital?

7 A. My father was wounded around the 16th of November, and we left for

8 the hospital a day after that.

9 Q. I would like to ask you some questions now about what was life

10 like during the time you were at the apartment for that two or three

11 months that you were in that apartment building. Can you tell the Court

12 what life was like?

13 A. Life was such that we were in the apartment all the time.

14 Occasionally when the shelling would stop we would go out to look for food

15 and water and we would return as soon as possible, because we couldn't

16 move freely outside, since there was shelling and shooting. That's why we

17 couldn't move about the city freely.

18 Q. And can you tell the Court how often shelling was for that period

19 of time? Was it weekly, daily?

20 A. There was shelling constantly, perhaps there were some breaks in

21 between, but very short ones. The shells fell all the time, and there was

22 firing all the time.

23 Q. And did any of those shells hit your apartment block?

24 A. Shells were landing around the apartment block all the time. Our

25 apartment block was somewhat sheltered by other buildings, so the houses

Page 3909

1 around it were destroyed or damaged more than the apartment block itself.

2 Q. And in the apartment block and in the area around it, was there

3 any military facilities?

4 A. No. Those were all civilian houses and apartments, shops, and

5 there was nothing of military nature there.

6 Q. And during the time of this shelling, what was your father doing

7 over this two or three months?

8 A. My father joined the guards. They were -- there were groups of

9 people on certain streets and parts of the city, self-organised in order

10 to try and protect women and children. He -- his duty was at the

11 Zagrebacka Nama, as it was called at the time, department store.

12 Q. And is that department store, was that near your house by the

13 Danube?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you said that your father was injured on the 16th of November.

16 Was he injured any other time apart from that day during the conflict?

17 A. Yes. Twice before.

18 Q. And can you tell us what those injuries were and, if you know, how

19 he got them?

20 A. The first time he was injured he had an entry/exit wound in one of

21 his legs. I was told it was caused by sniper. The other one, the other

22 injury was in his arm, also caused by sniping.

23 Q. And what his last injury, the injury that caused him to go to the

24 hospital on the 16th?

25 A. When he was wounded for the second time in his arm, his entire arm

Page 3910

1 was in a plaster, and that's when he spent his time with my -- me and

2 mother at home. The building caught fire, we were on the third floor, and

3 my mother and myself ran down the stairs to come out of the building. And

4 the fire spread from the first floor upwards.

5 He was on the third floor, and a neighbour of ours could not leave

6 her apartment. He tried to help, and the staircase was in flames by that

7 time. He could no longer go down via the stairs, so he tried to lower

8 himself across the balcony. Since one of his arms was in a plaster, he

9 couldn't use his left arm, and he fell on his legs, injuring his spine.

10 Q. And was he taken to hospital that day?

11 A. Yes, he was taken to hospital right away. Some of the neighbours

12 tried to improvise a stretcher; rather, they carried him on a door to the

13 hospital.

14 Q. And the neighbour that he tried to help, did she end up leaving

15 the building?

16 A. No, she managed to use the staircase, whereas he no longer could.

17 Q. You said the building caught on fire. Do you know how it caught

18 on fire?

19 A. Because of the shelling and the incendiary ammunition used. And I

20 believe some things caught fire in the building as there were no windows

21 anymore, and that's why the fire started.

22 Q. And where did you stay that night, the night after the fire in the

23 apartment?

24 A. In the building next to ours, because that building did not catch

25 fire, and we spent the night in an abandoned apartment.

Page 3911

1 Q. You said the building caught fire. Can you tell us whether it was

2 all the apartments within the building or just a few apartments within

3 your building?

4 A. Most of the apartments burnt down; perhaps one or two was left

5 only.

6 Q. And were there any soldiers in the building or any weapons being

7 stored in the building as far as you know, in your apartment building?

8 A. No. Mostly women and children, there were no men at all.

9 Q. Did you see your father again that day after he was taken to the

10 hospital?

11 A. Yes, I did. I went to the hospital to find out what has happened,

12 and I returned from the hospital to the apartment I mentioned, and that's

13 where I spent the night.

14 Q. And did you go to the hospital alone or with your mother or with

15 anyone else?

16 A. I went with someone else. My mother didn't even know that I went

17 to the hospital.

18 Q. After the 16th when you slept that night in the other apartment,

19 did you end up going to the hospital?

20 A. Yes. My father sent someone over to tell us to come to the

21 hospital because there was going to be an evacuation and myself and the

22 mother come to the hospital.

23 Q. Do you remember what date you went to the hospital?

24 A. A day after he was wounded.

25 Q. And did you go to the hospital in the evening or during the day?

Page 3912

1 A. It was already dark by the time we went to the hospital.

2 Q. And can you tell the Court what the situation was like when you

3 arrived at the hospital, in terms of patients and staff and what was

4 happening at the hospital when you arrived?

5 A. The hospital was full of wounded people and beds were placed next

6 to each other. When my mother and I came, we stopped right away, because

7 he was lying on the first bed as you entered the emergency ward. That's

8 where we stayed, and by that time other civilians began coming to the

9 hospital, and soon the hospital was crowded with people.

10 Q. And about how many nights did you stay at the hospital?

11 A. At least two, maybe more.

12 Q. And why are you not certain that it was two or maybe more?

13 A. I'm certain about two nights. I'm uncertain whether there was a

14 third night.

15 Q. I'd like to ask you about the last day before you left the

16 hospital and that last night. On the day before you left the hospital,

17 were you told what was going to happen to you?

18 A. That morning Dr. Bosanac came to the waiting-room where the

19 wounded were and where we were, and she said that the hospital could not

20 hold so many civilians, that there are a lot of people, and that they

21 should go to Velepromet, because an evacuation was to be organised there

22 as well, in the form of a convoy. But my mother and I remained with my

23 father in the hospital. We didn't want to leave.

24 Q. And what part of the hospital were you in?

25 A. As you enter the emergency ward, that's where we were. Before the

Page 3913

1 war it used to be a waiting-room, and it is a waiting-room now. But since

2 they were short of space, that's where they put the wounded, and my father

3 was there, right after getting inside the emergency ward.

4 Q. About how many people were in the waiting-room on this second to

5 last day?

6 A. There were a lot of wounded. Beds were next to each other, and

7 there were the medical staff and a number of civilians who hadn't left.

8 Q. And during that day and during the evening did anything of

9 significance happen that you can remember?

10 A. That afternoon the JNA entered the hospital and the local

11 Chetniks.

12 Q. And what did they do when they entered the hospital?

13 A. Those local Chetniks entered first, and they were quite arrogant.

14 They were insulting people. Some of them pointed their guns or rifles at

15 people and then they would move the barrels away, as if they were just

16 joking. It seemed funny to them. They were insulting the wounded. They

17 didn't abuse them physically, but verbally only.

18 Q. And was this occurring in the waiting-room?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And when you say local Chetniks entered the hospital, can you

21 explain what you mean by local Chetniks? What were these people wearing?

22 A. Nothing in particular. They wore jackets, or camouflage pants,

23 but they didn't wear uniforms. They had beards, they had the four Ss and

24 cockades and cartridge belts. They were not soldiers in the proper sense

25 of the word. They didn't wear the same uniform or one couldn't say that

Page 3914

1 they belonged to any particular army.

2 Q. When you say they had beards, did they all have beards?

3 A. Not all of them. Some did.

4 Q. You also mentioned the JNA came to the hospital that day. Can you

5 describe what the JNA, what the people you believed to be the JNA, what

6 they were wearing?

7 A. They wore uniforms. They had olive-drab uniforms, caps with a

8 five-pointed star, as well as the insignia used to be worn by the JNA

9 before the outbreak of the conflict.

10 Q. And about how many of these JNA soldiers did you see, and about

11 how many of the Chetniks did you see?

12 A. First local Chetniks enter the hospital and they were more

13 numerous. I didn't see many soldiers in the hospital except for a few of

14 them when they came to get their own wounded who were treated in the

15 hospital. But most of the people were locals, those who were in the

16 waiting-room.

17 Q. And how long did the insulting of the people in the waiting-room

18 go on for?

19 A. Not long. Perhaps a half an hour, an hour tops. They walked

20 around the hospital. Some of them were looking for some people, greeted

21 some others, but all in all it didn't last for a long time.

22 Q. And was there any reason for the insulting to stop? Did you see

23 anything to make you think that the insulting had stopped, caused the

24 insulting to stop?

25 A. Major Sljivancanin came in through the door and introduced

Page 3915

1 himself. He said he wanted them to leave those rooms, and he left two

2 regular JNA soldiers there to stand guard at the door. And he no longer

3 allowed any of those others inside.

4 Q. And can you describe this person as Major Sljivancanin that you

5 saw? Say the colour of his hair, his build, what he was wearing?

6 A. He was wearing a JNA uniform. He was tall, slender. He wore a

7 moustache, black moustache, black hair. He had some sort of a cap or

8 something on his head. And he clearly introduced himself, he said, "I am

9 Major Sljivancanin."

10 Q. And how long was he in the waiting-room for?

11 A. Not long. A minute or two perhaps. As long as it took him to say

12 who he was and told those others to leave. He left his own soldiers

13 there. He turned around and left. He didn't even linger at the door.

14 Q. Do you know what time of the day this was or whether it was light

15 or dark?

16 A. It was dark by this time.

17 Q. And that night did you stay in the waiting-room?

18 A. Yes. I spent most of my time in the waiting-room. My uncle and

19 cousin were in the cellar a few steps down from where I was. I would go

20 and see them occasionally, but most of the time I spent in the

21 waiting-room.

22 Q. And what's your uncle's and cousin's name?

23 A. Tadija Dosen and Martin Jakubovski Dosen.

24 Q. Can you tell the Court what happened the next morning, the day

25 that you left the Vukovar Hospital? The first thing that you remembered

Page 3916

1 occurring.

2 A. Next morning, first the nurses came and they gave each of the

3 wounded their personal documents and medical documentation, temperature

4 charts, that sort of thing. They placed the relevant documentation on

5 each of the patients' beds. Then a soldier came in through the

6 waiting-room door with a list, a piece of paper in his hand, and he read

7 from this list names of persons who were to leave the hospital. My

8 father's name was the first on that particular list. However, since my

9 father was unable to walk, we said that he couldn't even get off the bed

10 on his own, that this required a stretcher or something like that. And

11 then my mother asked them to bring a stretcher or something to use to

12 carry him out of the room.

13 Those of the wounded who were able to walk on their own had

14 already begun to leave the hospital. All those who were able to move on

15 their own were to leave the hospital immediately. After a while two

16 nurses brought a stretcher, lowered it beside the bed, and lowered my

17 father's body onto the stretcher. However, they were unable to lift the

18 stretcher themselves because my father weighed a quite a bit. One of the

19 nurses left the room, and after that two soldiers came in, lifted the

20 stretcher and took it out of the hospital. My mother and I followed them.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I'm sorry for

24 interrupting my learned friend's examination, but I think there is

25 something in the transcript. The witness answered a question, and she

Page 3917

1 said all of those who could walk left, including the medical staff, which

2 was not recorded, so perhaps my learned friend could clarify this for us

3 with the witness.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


6 Q. Did you hear that? Could you explain?

7 A. Yes, I did. They said that all those who were able to walk should

8 leave the room. Everybody started leaving the emergency ward, including

9 some of the staff. They all headed out of the hospital.

10 Q. And what happened to your father? You said that the nurses

11 couldn't lift him. What happened to him?

12 A. Two soldiers came in, they raised the stretcher and carried it

13 outside. My mother and I followed them.

14 Q. And how did you -- what exit did you leave in the hospital?

15 A. The emergency ward entrance. The entrance and the exit is really

16 the same door.

17 Q. And did you follow the soldiers and, if you did, where did they

18 go?

19 A. My mother and I followed close behind them, and once we left the

20 emergency ward they headed left and we just continued following them.

21 Q. In which direction were you going towards?

22 A. We headed for that road where the buses were and some rather small

23 lorries.

24 Q. And what was the name of the road?

25 A. It used to be called Bozidara Adzije Street before the war. I

Page 3918

1 think now it's call the Gunduliceva Street.

2 Q. You said there was some buses there and some small lorries. About

3 how many buses did you see?

4 A. It was a total of four buses there: Two regular buses used for

5 city transport before the war; there was a military bus; and another

6 regular bus there.

7 Q. And as you were walking towards the buses, did you see anything on

8 your way?

9 A. I saw Major Sljivancanin again, he was standing there with some

10 soldiers issuing instructions to them, telling them what they were

11 supposed to do. We just walked past, so I didn't hear what it was that he

12 was telling them.

13 Q. And about how many soldiers did you see there?

14 A. Some. I can't be more specific. It was a rather small group of

15 soldiers.

16 Q. And were these soldiers wearing uniforms?

17 A. Yes. All of them were members of the JNA.

18 Q. As you walked past these soldiers and Major Sljivancanin, did you

19 see anyone else there?

20 A. Just people leaving the hospital, waiting to be loaded on to the

21 buses.

22 Q. And were you asked anything as you approached the buses, or your

23 mother asked anything by any one of these soldiers?

24 A. Yes. One of the soldiers spoke to my mother to ask if we'd been

25 searched, if anyone had gone through our things. She said that we had

Page 3919

1 been searched and then he told us that we could go on.

2 Q. Did you see anyone else being searched as you went towards the

3 bus?

4 A. As soon as we left the emergency ward to the right, there were

5 those of the wounded who were able to walk lined up against a wall. To

6 the left there was a mound of small items, watches, toothpicks, coins.

7 That's what I noticed in passing. I'm not sure what else was there, but

8 there was a heap of small items there.

9 Q. And about how many wounded were lined up against the wall?

10 A. There were people lined up along the whole length of the wall. I

11 can't give you a figure, but they were quite a large group. The line

12 stretched from the emergency ward exit to the buses, and some of them

13 were, in fact, already getting on to those buses.

14 Q. Where were these soldiers that you mentioned in relation to these

15 people that were lined up?

16 A. From my perspective they were in front of them.

17 Q. And what happened to your father? Where was he taken?

18 A. When we left the emergency ward to follow the soldiers, they

19 walked with him as far as the third bus. They tried to lift him on to the

20 bus, but the stretcher was too wide to get it through the door of the bus,

21 so they just lowered the stretcher down beside the bus, and my mother and

22 I remained standing by the stretcher.

23 Q. Did you see anyone on this bus that they placed him beside?

24 A. There were soldiers around the bus and there were two armed

25 soldiers on the bus. Those were the soldiers that I saw. But there were

Page 3920

1 some other persons who were on that bus.

2 Q. And who were they?

3 A. Sinisa Glavasevic, Zvonko Vulic, one of my uncles, Tadija Dosen,

4 my other uncle, Ivan Dosen, Josip Kozul. They were on the bus when we

5 arrived outside the bus. It was only on that third bus that people were

6 sitting. The other buses were being filled to capacity and more. But on

7 the third bus there was one person seated on each of the seats inside the

8 bus.

9 Q. And did you know any of the people that were placed on the other

10 buses?

11 A. Yes. I know several people who were there, people I saw there at

12 the time, Sinisa Veber, Karlo Fitus, Ivo Ahmetovic, Ivo Vulic. Those were

13 the people I recognised in that crowd on the buses.

14 Q. You said that your father couldn't fit into the bus because the

15 stretcher was too big and he was placed beside it. Was anyone else placed

16 on the bus where your father was near?

17 A. Yes. As we were standing outside the bus, they brought over a

18 woman who was pregnant, Ruzica Markobasic. Two soldiers brought her from

19 the Vukovar Hospital and started stripping her coat right there outside

20 the bus and rifling through her bag. At one point in time the soldier who

21 was going through her bag placed something into my mother's hand. My

22 mother opened her hand to see what it was, and she asked him what -- "What

23 is this, young man?"

24 And he said, "This is money."

25 And she said, "What would I need her money for?"

Page 3921

1 And then he replied, "You might be needing money, but she is

2 certain never to be needing money again."

3 And then they loaded her on to that bus.

4 Q. How far away were you from this -- your mother when this happened?

5 A. I was just next to my mother. This all happened outside that bus,

6 in front of that bus, a yard or two away.

7 Q. And Ruzica Markobasic, could you tell the Court whether she was a

8 relative of yours?

9 A. Yes. She's my father's cousin.

10 Q. And was anyone else placed on the bus whilst you were there?

11 A. Right after she had been put on that bus they brought my cousin,

12 Martin Jakubovski Dosen, from the hospital. They lined him up against a

13 fence, which was near the bus, and told him to spread his legs and his

14 arms, although his arm had been immobilised. He was wearing pyjamas and

15 he was in no position to be hiding anything, but they still searched him.

16 I asked him, "Braco, what's going on?"

17 And he replied, "Don't worry, everything will be fine."

18 And then they put him on that bus.

19 Q. And whilst you were there was anyone taken off the bus?

20 A. When Martin Jakubovski was put on that bus, they took my younger

21 uncle off the bus, lined him up against the fence, searched him, and sent

22 him back on to the bus.

23 Q. And did you say anything to anyone as this was going on?

24 A. Yes. I asked Martin Jakubovski what was going on, and he

25 said, "Everything will be fine." That was the extent of it.

Page 3922

1 Q. And did your mother speak to anyone while she was at the bus?

2 A. When my younger uncle was sent back to the bus, my mother asked

3 one of the soldiers who were nearby guarding the bus, "Listen, young man,

4 what's going on? What's going on here?"

5 And he replied, "Please, madam, don't ask me."

6 And then she said, "Well, what's all this for?"

7 And he said, "Don't ask me, please. This bus will be swallowed by

8 the night in broad daylight."

9 And then my father started telling my mother in an agitated voice

10 to take me away, asking her, didn't she realise what was going on. And

11 then my mother said, "I can't just continue to walk around like this. I

12 have no one to speak to. I can't just take them away, can I," she said.

13 She was looking around to see if there was anyone that she might

14 approach. I was facing the bus myself, so I didn't see what she was doing

15 or where she was looking. It was after several seconds or minutes perhaps

16 that she walked towards someone in order to accost them, but I didn't see

17 who it was. I just overheard the conversation that she had.

18 Q. Which way was she walking? Was she walking back towards the

19 hospital or alongside the buses?

20 A. I was standing outside the bus, so she might have walked behind my

21 back, because there is no way she could have passed in front of me because

22 of the bus.

23 Q. You said you overheard a conversation. Can you briefly explain

24 what that was about?

25 A. Mom walked up to that man and asked him, "Excuse me, sir, what's

Page 3923

1 my daughter doing here? I can't see any other women or children around

2 here."

3 And the man said, "Who are you?"

4 And she said, "I am Martin Dosen's wife."

5 And he said, "Hmm, I see. Martin Dosen, why isn't he on the bus?"

6 And my mother replied we couldn't get the stretcher on to the bus

7 and that's why it was placed beside the bus. And then he said he would

8 have a lorry there to take the stretcher away. And then my mother asked

9 him if anybody could collect his things. And then the man answered, "He

10 will not be needing those things anymore." He had a quick thought about

11 what he just said and then he asked my mother, "Who do you think is going

12 to be carrying this stuff for him?"

13 And then he asked two soldiers again to come over, and they lifted

14 the stretcher and my mother just lowered his bag on to the stretcher.

15 They went towards the buses and my mother just shoved me aside and told me

16 that we would be joining the women and children who were on the other

17 side.

18 Q. You said you didn't see this conversation but you heard it. Did

19 you recognise the other voice that your mother was speaking to?

20 A. At this point in time I wasn't really focusing on who it was that

21 she was talking to. I was focusing on the substance of the conversation.

22 It was later on that my mother told me who she had talked to.

23 Q. Who did your mother say that she had spoken to?

24 A. She said she had spoken to Major Sljivancanin.

25 Q. About how long after this conversation did she tell you that?

Page 3924

1 A. I don't remember when exactly, but I know that it was long after

2 the whole thing was over. I think we were probably back in Croatia by

3 this time.

4 Q. You said that two soldiers came to lift the stretcher. Do you

5 know where they took your father?

6 A. They headed for those buses -- or rather, lorries that were near

7 the buses. My mother and I headed off to the right where the women and

8 children were standing, so I didn't actually see them load him on to one

9 of the lorries. I just saw them going towards the lorries, but that was

10 all we saw, and we didn't see anything after that.

11 Q. And where were the women and children standing? About how far

12 away from the buses? Could you see the buses from that spot?

13 A. The buses with the women and children, you mean?

14 Q. You mentioned earlier that you were told -- your mother told you

15 to go over where the women and children were standing. Was there a

16 certain place where they were standing, or was it only by the buses, as

17 you just mentioned, these other buses?

18 A. As we left those buses, which for the most part had men on them,

19 we passed the emergency ward again and we saw that to the right most of

20 the people standing there were women and children. There were buses there

21 that was on the other side of the hospital.

22 Q. And were those buses parked in the hospital or were they parked on

23 the street?

24 A. They were parked on the other side of the hospital in a street.

25 Q. And do you know the name of that street?

Page 3925

1 A. Ivo Lola Ribar before the war, I think now it's called Zupanijska

2 Street.

3 Q. You mentioned that where your father was taken by this third bus

4 there was three other buses as well. Can you tell us who was on these

5 other buses? You said it was mostly men. Who were they and do you know,

6 from the ones that you knew, what ethnicity they were?

7 A. Those I knew were all Croats.

8 Q. And you said mostly men. Were there any women on these buses?

9 A. The only woman there was Ruzica Markobasic. The only woman I saw.

10 Q. And what happened after that? You said you walked towards these

11 other buses on the other side of the hospital. What did you do then?

12 A. When we reached the other side of the hospital they asked us

13 whether we wanted to go to Croatia or to Serbia. Mom said we wanted to go

14 to Croatia, and then we went towards those buses that were supposed to

15 drive us back to Croatia. We were waiting to get on to those buses.

16 Q. And did those buses finally leave? Did you finally head towards

17 Croatia?

18 A. We boarded the buses and the buses left.

19 Q. And did you stop anywhere on the way, on the way back to Croatia?

20 A. We went through the centre of the city, we stopped briefly in

21 front of Velepromet; that was for a very short time. Nobody came off or

22 came on board. Then we went to Negoslavci where we stopped on the road.

23 Nobody left, nobody came. We were simply stopped there for a while.

24 After that we continued on towards Sremska Mitrovica and we spent a few

25 days there. From Sremska Mitrovica we left towards Samac and then crossed

Page 3926

1 over to Croatia. Then to Djakovo and Djurdjenovac, and my mother and I

2 left Djurdjenovac and went to Zagreb.

3 Q. About how many days did that take?

4 A. In total how many days?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Six or seven days, perhaps, total.

7 Q. And I think you mentioned that women and children were on these

8 buses. Were any men on the bus, these buses that left for Croatia and for

9 Serbia that were on the other side of the hospital?

10 A. Mostly women and children. Perhaps a couple or a few men, but

11 very few.

12 Q. And you said there were soldiers outside the bus where your father

13 was placed, this third bus. Were there any soldiers by the buses where

14 the women and children got on?

15 A. I didn't see any. I only saw a few soldiers who stood at the gate

16 of the hospital, but around the bus itself there were not too many

17 soldiers. I didn't see them.

18 Q. When you say there was a few soldiers who stood at the gate of the

19 hospital, are you talking about a gate closer to the buses that the women

20 and children got on, or a gate closer to the buses that your father was

21 placed beside?

22 A. The gate where the buses with women and children were; that's

23 where the few soldiers were. As regards the other gate, there were many

24 more soldiers next to the bus where the men were.

25 Q. This gate where the few soldiers were, were there any other people

Page 3927

1 at that gate?

2 A. When my mother and I came from the hospital there were

3 representatives of the International Red Cross there, I believe. They

4 were trying to get inside the hospital. I don't know whether they

5 succeeded or when. We went on towards the buses and they remained behind,

6 discussing, talking to the soldiers there. I didn't overhear their

7 conversation. I just realised that they were trying to get in, but the

8 soldiers wouldn't allow that.

9 Q. And was the gate open or closed?

10 A. It used to be a gate. It was destroyed by the time. There were

11 just parts left.

12 Q. I'm now going to ask you some questions about some of the people

13 that you saw on the -- on the buses. You mentioned you saw Ivan Dosen on

14 the bus. Can you tell the Court if he's a relative of yours, about how

15 old he is, and what job he did in Vukovar?

16 A. He was my brother -- my father's younger brother. At the time he

17 was 30 or 35. He used to live in Vukovar and was single.

18 Q. And what job did he do?

19 A. He was a construction worker.

20 Q. You also mentioned Tadija Dosen was on this bus, military bus as

21 well. How old was he and what job did he have?

22 A. He was my father's older brother. There was a few years

23 difference between all three. He was married, had a daughter, he lived in

24 Vukovar, and he worked in the shoe factory, Borovo.

25 Q. And was he wounded or not?

Page 3928

1 A. Yes, he was.

2 Q. I should have asked that question about Ivan as well. Was he

3 wounded or not?

4 A. Ivan had been wounded as well, but before that. He wasn't in the

5 hospital because of his injuries. He came to the hospital because he

6 heard the rumours in the town that there was going to be an evacuation

7 from the hospital, whereas Tadija was one of the wounded in the hospital.

8 Q. And you mentioned Zvonko Vulic was on this bus as well. How old

9 was he, and is he related to you, and what job did he do?

10 A. He was around 20 years of age. He used to be a cousin of ours,

11 lived in Vukovar with his parents, and he completed his education a year

12 or two prior to the war. I believe he was unemployed at the time, but I

13 am not certain.

14 Q. You also mentioned a Martin Jakubovski Dosen as well.

15 A. He was also around 20, and just before the outbreak of the

16 conflict in our area he had returned from the JNA. He lived in Vukovar,

17 he was single, but he was a professional soldier.

18 Q. And was he -- was he serving in the JNA at the time that he was

19 placed on the bus or was he with other -- another military unit?

20 A. He did not serve with the JNA, he fled the JNA and since by the

21 time Croatia was in the process of organising its own armed forces, he

22 wanted to remain as a professional soldier and he joined the Croatian

23 army.

24 Q. And you mentioned that Ruzica Markobasic was placed on the bus.

25 Is she a relative, and could you describe whether she had a family?

Page 3929

1 A. She was my father's cousin. She was married, a mother of three,

2 used to live in Vukovar. I believe she was pregnant, five or six months

3 into the pregnancy when she was boarded on one of the buses.

4 Q. You said you saw Josip Kozul on that bus, the third bus. About

5 how old was he, and do you know what he did in Vukovar?

6 A. He was my grandmother's neighbour, so I knew him by sight. He was

7 in his early 20s, and I don't know what sort of jobs he did.

8 Q. You also mentioned Sinisa Glavasevic was on the bus. Who was he?

9 A. The only thing I know about him was that he used to work in

10 Vukovar.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, he used to work for

12 Radio Vukovar.


14 Q. You also mentioned that you saw some other people you knew on

15 other buses. You said you saw Ivo Vulic. Who is he and how old was he

16 and what job did he have?

17 A. Ivo Vulic, he was my aunt's husband. Probably between 35 and 40

18 years of age at the time, he used to live in Vukovar. I can't remember

19 where he worked, perhaps at Borovo, but I'm not sure. In any case, he was

20 employed.

21 Q. You said you saw Ivo Ahmetovic on the bus. Who was he, what age

22 was he, and what job did he do?

23 A. He was around 20, my aunt's son. He lived in Vukovar with his

24 parents.

25 Q. And you said you saw Sinisa Veber on the other bus. Who was he

Page 3930

1 and about how old was he?

2 A. He was also a young guy, around 20. I knew him by sight. I knew

3 his name and that he lived in Vukovar, but nothing else.

4 Q. And the last person you saw was a Karlo Fitus. About how old was

5 he, what job did he do?

6 A. I used to know him by sight as well. He might have been around

7 25, living alone in Vukovar, that's all.

8 Q. Once your father was taken away by the two soldiers on the

9 stretcher, have you ever seen him since then?

10 A. No. I never saw any of them, any of those who were there.

11 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, for the record, all of those people

12 appear in the annex to the indictment.

13 I would just ask now that a couple of exhibits be shown to the

14 witness. And perhaps if I can ask for Exhibit 156, please. It's ERN

15 number 0462662, and it's a map of Vukovar city.

16 Q. Witness, in a moment I'm going to ask you to look on this map and

17 see if you can locate the approximate area where your house was, the place

18 where you saw the gun-barrels shelling Vukovar, and the approximate area

19 of the apartment block in which you moved to.

20 Witness, do you see the exhibit in front of you?

21 A. [In English] Yes.

22 Q. And does it look familiar to you?

23 A. [Interpretation] Yes. This is a map of the city.

24 Q. And your house, the house that was next to the Danube, was that

25 north or south of the Vuka River?

Page 3931

1 A. To the south, towards the hospital, between the Vuka and the

2 hospital. No, that would be to the north.

3 Q. That's correct.

4 MR. SMITH: If I could ask the usher just to enlarge the exhibit,

5 which would show -- which would sort of commence, say, just slightly above

6 the hospital and, say, stop just below Nova Ulica, and just have that area

7 enlarged, please. I think that -- that size is quite good.

8 Q. Witness, now looking at the enlarged version of this exhibit, do

9 you see the approximate location of your house, which was by the river?

10 Take your time looking for it.

11 Can you mark that with an A, please.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. And Witness, you said that you could see the gun-barrels on the

14 other side of the Danube, shelling the town. Could you put the

15 approximate location that you could see those gun-barrels?

16 A. Approximately here.

17 Q. And can you mark that with a B, please.

18 A. Where I marked the house. [Marks].

19 Q. Thank you. And Witness, you said that after the shelling had

20 commenced you moved to your apartment block. Can you approximately put

21 the area where your apartment block was?

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. And can you mark that with a C, please.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. And was that apartment block by the river? Is that correct?

Page 3932

1 A. [No interpretation].

2 Q. And that's the Vuka River. Is that right?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please move closer to the

4 microphone. The interpreters cannot hear.


6 Q. Your apartment block is next to the Vuka River. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender that exhibit.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 MR. SMITH: Thank you. And if I could ask for exhibit number 170.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number 176, Your Honours.

12 MR. SMITH: I apologise. If I could ask for exhibit number 170

13 and page number 5. Thanks. Page 5, please. And the ERN number

14 is 00531260.

15 Q. Witness, do you see the picture on your monitor now?

16 A. Yes, I see.

17 Q. And what's that a picture of?

18 A. The Vukovar Hospital.

19 Q. Do you see the emergency entrance to the hospital that you

20 referred to a while ago?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you mark that with an A, please.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. Can you also mark on that photograph with a line the approximate

25 location of the buses that your father was placed beside.

Page 3933

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. And can you mark that with a B, please.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. And can you also draw a line noting the approximate locations of

5 the buses that left the Vukovar Hospital with the women and children,

6 including yourself and your mother?

7 A. I would have to make a marking across the roof, because that's on

8 the other side.

9 Q. That's fine, if you can do that, thanks.

10 A. [Marks].

11 JUDGE PARKER: Another photograph will show it better, I think,

12 Mr. Smith. Number 6.

13 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll do that. So that

14 location, the approximate location has been marked with a C. But if we

15 could show photograph 6. Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness, do you recognise this photograph?

17 A. Yes, this is the main entrance of the hospital. That's where the

18 buses with women and children were.

19 Q. And could you put an approximate line where those buses were lined

20 up, please, and mark that with an A. Thank you.

21 A. There is a problem with my pen.

22 Q. You might be given another colour in a moment.

23 A. [Marks].

24 MR. SMITH: Thank you. I seek to tender that, or both those

25 photographs, Your Honour.

Page 3934

1 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

2 THE REGISTRAR: The first photograph will be exhibit number 177,

3 and the second photograph will be exhibit number 178, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

5 MR. SMITH: I just have four more photographs to show. If we can

6 show 65 ter number 616, ERN number 00563066, and if only the photograph of

7 the person be shown but not the details underneath, please.

8 Q. Witness, do you see a photograph in front of you?

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Borovic.

11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] To object formally, one can see the

12 first and the last name as well as the last time, so the purpose is -- is

13 no longer here.

14 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, we made good efforts earlier to try and

15 avoid this, but unfortunately it didn't work. However, I think this

16 person is I think the cousin of the witness, so I don't think it's too

17 problematic.

18 Q. Witness, now looking at this picture, do you recognise that

19 person?

20 A. I do recognise this person. This is Martin Jakubovski Dosen.

21 Q. And Witness, you say it's Martin Jakubovski Dosen. It seems to be

22 a double-barreled surname. The Dosen part of the surname -- sorry. Can

23 you explain how Martin is related to you?

24 A. He was my father's sister's son.

25 Q. And did, in one point of time, did he change his name?

Page 3935

1 A. Yes. He used to be Martin Jakubovski; that was his father's last

2 name. When he turned 18 he added Dosen, which was his mother's maiden

3 name.

4 Q. And why did he add that Dosen on the end?

5 A. He wanted to. He used to hold my father in very high esteem, and

6 since they shared their first names, he wanted them to have the same last

7 names.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number 179, Your Honours.

12 MR. SMITH: If I can call for Exhibit -- sorry, Rule 65 ter

13 number 615, which is 00563067. And if we could attempt to try --

14 JUDGE PARKER: I understand that there will be no broadcast at the

15 moment until it is got into the correct format.

16 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Witness, do you see that person on the screen in front of you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And who is that person?

20 A. Josip Kozul.

21 Q. And he was on the third bus. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number 180, Your Honours.

Page 3936

1 MR. SMITH: If I call for 65 ter number 619, which is ERN number

2 00563072.

3 Q. Witness, do you see that person on your screen?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And who is that person?

6 A. Sinisa Veber.

7 Q. He was on the third bus as well. Is that correct?

8 A. No. He was on one of the other buses.

9 MR. SMITH: Thank you. I seek to tender that, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number 181, Your Honours.

12 MR. SMITH: Thank you. And if I can call for the last exhibit,

13 which is exhibit number 158, please.

14 Q. Witness, do you see that photograph on the screen?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And who is that a picture of, please?

17 A. Sinisa Glavasevic.

18 Q. And I think you said that he was on the third bus. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will -- it is already an exhibit, is it not?

23 MR. SMITH: My mistake.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Exhibit 158.

25 MR. SMITH: That's right. Your Honour, the examination is

Page 3937

1 completed.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Smith.

3 Now, our tapes have overrun by three or four minutes and must now

4 be rewound. So we must adjourn now to enable that to be done.

5 We will resume at 10 minutes past 4.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Smith.

9 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. I have finished my

10 examination, so unless there is anything more.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

12 Mr. Vasic.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic:

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to all.

16 Q. Good afternoon to the witness. I am attorney Miroslav Vasic,

17 counsel for Mr. Mrksic. Before I begin my cross-examination I would like

18 to ask you the following: Since we speak the same language, please make a

19 pause before you start answering any of my questions so that the

20 interpreters have sufficient time to translate what we are saying.

21 In the summer of 1991 you were 14 years old, weren't you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You were living with your parents. Were your brother and sister

24 on your mother's side living with you too?

25 A. No.

Page 3938

1 Q. Do you know where they were living at the time?

2 A. With their grandmother in Borovo.

3 Q. Were your brother and sister on your father's side, from his first

4 marriage, living with you?

5 A. No, they weren't.

6 Q. Were you in touch with your brothers and sisters, those that I've

7 just mentioned?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Your brother, Alen Dosen, was he a member of the National Guards

10 Corps in the summer of 1991?

11 A. I don't know if he was or not. I know that he joined the defence

12 of Borovo Naselje. I'm not sure which specific unit he joined.

13 Q. Was your family in close contact with the brothers and sisters of

14 your father at the time?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What about your father's brothers? Did they too join Vukovar's

17 defence forces and were they members of the National Guards Corps?

18 A. I'm not sure if they were members of National Guards Corps or not,

19 but I know that they did join the defence forces.

20 Q. Were you in touch with Ruzica Markobasic and her husband, Davor

21 Markobasic?

22 A. No. I was not in touch with them on a regular basis. Not before

23 things started happening in Vukovar. I had seen them several months

24 before perhaps, but we were not really in touch on a frequent and regular

25 basis.

Page 3939

1 Q. Do you know if Davor Markobasic too joined the defence forces of

2 Vukovar and was he a member of the National Guards Corps?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Prior to August 1991 in the house in which you lived with your

5 parents, did you see any weapons lying around?

6 A. No.

7 Q. In June and July in 1991 did you hear any night-time explosions

8 anywhere in Vukovar?

9 A. June and July, that is --

10 Q. The sixth and the seventh months of the year.

11 A. I don't think so. I don't think I heard any.

12 Q. You were still going to primary school at this time, weren't you?

13 A. Yes, I just completed my primary education in late June that year.

14 Q. What about the summer of 1991? Did you leave Vukovar?

15 A. No. I remained in Vukovar throughout.

16 Q. Did you at the time for the most part socialise with friends who

17 were the same age as you, your schoolmates?

18 A. I did for as long as we could go on functioning and living normal

19 lives in Vukovar; that is, until the shelling started.

20 Q. Did you socialise with anyone at all who wasn't the same age as

21 you?

22 A. My parents and their friends, their friends who came to see us.

23 Q. Did you go to any cafes or restaurants? I mean before armed

24 conflict broke out, or did you socialise in a different way?

25 A. I was too young to go to any cafes or restaurants. We were just

Page 3940

1 children playing out in the streets, in our flats, that sort of thing.

2 Q. Thank you. Well, then how come you know Sinisa Glavasevic, who

3 was quite a lot older than you?

4 A. I met him in the Vukovar Hospital. Because my father knew him.

5 Q. When did you meet him at the Vukovar Hospital? Do you remember

6 the day you met?

7 A. I don't remember the exact day. I know this happened when we

8 arrived at the hospital in order to be evacuated.

9 Q. Was he also in that waiting-room on the first floor that you

10 described, where you said you were with your grandmother?

11 A. The waiting-room was not on the first floor; it was in the cellar.

12 I was standing next to my father's bed when Sinisa came. My father and he

13 exchanged greetings and that was how I met him.

14 Q. So you say you met Sinisa Glavasevic at the hospital. But where

15 did you meet Karlo Fitus? He's also older than you?

16 A. I know him because we ran a restaurant on the banks of the Danube.

17 We would all go swimming there in summer. My brothers and sisters are

18 more or less the same age as he, and we just met by chance. I knew him by

19 sight.

20 Q. Thank you. Did you know Vesna Bosanac's sons?

21 A. Her younger son and I were schoolmates. We went to the same

22 school, but he was somewhat older. I knew him by sight too.

23 Q. Just by sight?

24 A. Yes, from school. We would sometimes come across each other in

25 the school's corridors.

Page 3941

1 Q. What about her elder son, did you know him too?

2 A. I do now, but I did not then.

3 Q. Would you agree with me if I say that the clashes in Vukovar and

4 the shelling first broke out, first started on the 25th of August, 1991?

5 A. I can't give you the exact date. I know that it was late August,

6 that was when the shelling started in Vukovar itself. But in Borovo, it

7 had begun a lot earlier.

8 Q. You said that you were living in your home on the banks of the

9 Danube at the time, weren't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you spend your days in the house or did you take shelter

12 somewhere in order to protect yourselves from the artillery attacks that

13 you spoke about?

14 A. We were spending most of our time in the house. But when the

15 shelling became very heavy and dangerous, we would go to our neighbour's

16 cellar, because our house did not have one.

17 Q. When did you decide to leave the house and move to the flat at

18 Olajnica?

19 A. It was my parents' decision, and they made this decision when the

20 destruction of the town became greater. Our house, too, had been hit by a

21 shell and they decided that it was time to move. We were close to the

22 Danube.

23 Q. Was this immediately after your house had been hit?

24 A. I think so. Very soon after.

25 Q. The building at Olajnica is really a sky-scraper, isn't it?

Page 3942

1 A. Yes, Olajnica is a settlement comprising 18 buildings.

2 Q. How many floors did your building have?

3 A. The ground floor, five floors, plus the attic.

4 Q. Was there anyone else from your father's family living in the same

5 building?

6 A. Yes. My grandmother was living on the fifth floor of that

7 building.

8 Q. What about your uncle, Ivan? Was he living in the same building

9 too?

10 A. Yes, he was staying with our grandmother.

11 Q. Where was your uncle Tadija Dosen living?

12 A. In the centre of town. There are two high-rise buildings there on

13 the very bank of the Danube.

14 Q. Do you know where the headquarters of the National Guards Corps

15 was located in Vukovar, which specific building?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. What about the MUP headquarters?

18 A. I just know the police building, where the police used to be.

19 That was near the hospital.

20 Q. And what about the Vukovar Defence Crisis Staff?

21 A. I really don't know.

22 Q. What about the positions of the town's defenders?

23 A. No. I was too young to know this sort of thing. I was staying

24 home with my mother, and I know very little, you could say next to

25 nothing, about all these things.

Page 3943

1 Q. You testified in chief that there were no military facilities in

2 or around your neighbourhood or any military units. How can you know that

3 if you didn't know where the defence lines were or the defence's most

4 important positions around town?

5 A. Yes, but in our neighbourhood I know that there were buildings

6 there, residential buildings, a football stadium, there was a shop there,

7 the hospital was nearby, and there could not have been any military

8 facilities there. I was only telling you about my neighbourhood.

9 Q. Is the palace of Count Eltz in the vicinity of your neighbourhood

10 too?

11 A. The palace of Count Eltz is next to our house.

12 Q. How far would that be from your flat at Olajnica?

13 A. It's a 10-minute walk.

14 Q. While testifying in chief you said that you did not believe that

15 there were any military units or facilities there, just women and children

16 in the buildings. Where were the men? Do you know that?

17 A. I don't know. Probably somewhere with the defence forces. They

18 weren't with us, regrettably.

19 Q. Your father joined the town's defence, and you were left alone

20 with your mother in the flat, weren't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did your mother ever tell you which part of the front line your

23 relatives, Tadija, Ivan Dosen and Martin Jakubovski Dosen had gone to?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. Thank you. Were there any other houses or buildings near your

Page 3944

1 neighbourhood, or were these other houses and buildings across the river?

2 A. What sort of house or building do you mean? Where we lived?

3 Q. Yes, where you lived. You lived in a flat which was in a

4 building. Apart from this high-rise settlement, I want to know if there

5 were any other houses in that area or were they all across the river Vuka?

6 A. Some buildings were across the river Vuka, but there were some

7 houses on our side of the river too. There were two clearings and then

8 some houses.

9 Q. How far were those houses from your own neighbourhood?

10 A. Between 500 and 700 metres, but I would be hard put to say. It's

11 a five-minute walk across the clearing, perhaps.

12 Q. Thank you. As the shelling went on were any shells landing near

13 your neighbourhood or not?

14 A. There were shells falling all over.

15 Q. Which period of time are we talking about? When were shells

16 falling on and around your neighbourhood? Can you give us the months?

17 A. It started in late August and it did not stop.

18 Q. So there were shells falling around your neighbourhood in your

19 building throughout up until the 17th of November, 1991. Is that what you

20 are suggesting?

21 A. It wasn't as heavy at the outset, the shelling, but it became more

22 and more intense as time went by.

23 Q. Given the fact that you lived in a high-rise, you say there were

24 shells falling near the building. Did you go with your mother to the

25 nuclear shelter at Olajnica?

Page 3945

1 A. No. Mom and I did not want to go to a shelter, there were too

2 many people; it was overcrowded. The sanitary conditions were less than

3 perfect. There was no water, no electricity, and we opted to stay in our

4 flat for as long as we could. There were several neighbours still

5 remaining in our building who had made the same sort of decision.

6 Q. What about your relatives? Did they stay in the building in their

7 fifth-floor flat throughout?

8 A. At this point in time my grandmother was alone in her flat, and

9 she stayed in the flat until a shell destroyed one of the walls, at which

10 point she could no longer stay, so she went to the shelter at Olajnica.

11 Q. But even after this happened you stayed in the flat, didn't you?

12 A. Yes, until it burned down.

13 Q. We'll come back to this building and your flat later on. You say

14 that your father was wounded twice by a sniper both times. When was this,

15 and do you know how this happened exactly? How did you know about it?

16 Did your father tell you about any details?

17 A. I know that he was wounded twice, the first time around he

18 returned to the flat where my mother and I were, because he was the one

19 bringing us water and food, the bare necessities, and he told us that he

20 had been hit by a sniper.

21 The second time around he came home with a plaster-cast. He told

22 us that he had been shot and released from hospital and allowed to go

23 home. He stayed for several days until the building caught fire. The

24 third time around he was seriously injured.

25 Q. Did he tell you where specifically he had been wounded, the

Page 3946

1 specific locations, the first two times?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. You say that you remained in your flat. Were the windows intact?

4 Did you have any sort of heating?

5 A. Of course not. No windows, no heating, no electricity, no water.

6 We had planks, our windows boarded up. There was no heating. We were

7 using some sort of a stove.

8 Q. You had blankets and planks over the windows, you mean as in

9 windows being boarded up?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was that only towards the end, or was it this way from the moment

12 you moved to Olajnica?

13 A. Every day brought new destruction. Sometimes the window-panes

14 were shattered. Sometimes shrapnel would come flying in whenever a shell

15 landed in front of the building. There was always some mending to do.

16 Q. To go back to the day when your building was hit, did your mother

17 ever tell you that the reason why the building caught fire was that the

18 oil that was in the building caught fire after being hit by a shell?

19 A. I don't know the exact cause of the fire.

20 Q. When that happened you left the building together with your

21 mother. Isn't that so?

22 A. When the building caught fire, we ran down the staircase and came

23 out in front of the building.

24 Q. Apart from you, were there any other residents coming down the

25 stairs?

Page 3947

1 A. Yes, there were several. They had already been standing in front

2 of the entrance to the building when we came down.

3 Q. You said that your father stayed behind to help an elderly lady

4 leave her apartment and that eventually she did come out. Isn't that so?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you ever find out why he didn't come out together with this

7 lady, since he remained behind?

8 A. Because all of a sudden the building started burning from the

9 lower floors up, and he could no longer come down, because the staircase

10 was on fire by the time. She did manage to come down, but it was too late

11 for him. The fire became too strong by that time.

12 Q. Did you see that, or do you know that from other people's stories?

13 A. I saw flames coming out of the apartments below our apartment.

14 Q. Did you ever ask your father whether he tried to leave immediately

15 with the elderly lady?

16 A. My father and I never discussed that. We never talked about why

17 he didn't come out or what happened at the moment.

18 Q. But you yourself did not enter the building to see the staircase

19 on fire, you can only assume that?

20 A. No. The lady he tried to save and who came out, she said that the

21 staircase was on fire. And then we saw him on the balcony. He was trying

22 to tie a rope to lower himself to the ground. Had he been able to use the

23 staircase, he would have.

24 Q. When you and the other residents rushed out of the building, did

25 you remain there, or did you look for shelter, since the shelling was

Page 3948

1 ongoing?

2 A. My mother and I were standing in front of the building. I can't

3 remember what the other residents were doing.

4 Q. Thank you. During the examination-in-chief you said that your

5 father was carried away and that you and your mother remained in that part

6 of the city that day?

7 A. Yes. We went to the building that was next to ours.

8 Q. Can you remember the way your father was dressed when these events

9 took place on that day, if you can recall?

10 A. I cannot.

11 Q. In the evening on the 17th did you go with your mother to the

12 hospital for the first time to see your father?

13 A. No, I went there a day earlier when he got injured. That's when I

14 saw him in the hospital.

15 Q. Did you ever tell that to any of the investigators of the OTP or

16 to this Tribunal when you testified in another case back in 1998?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Who did you go to the hospital with the first time on the 17th of

19 November?

20 A. The first time was not on the 17th but the day when my father was

21 injured, although I am not certain that was the 17th. I can't remember

22 the date, but it was on the same day when he got injured. There was a man

23 or a boy who came with me. I remember that my mother didn't go. She

24 didn't even know I went there.

25 Q. You testified here back in 1998 in the Dokmanovic case. Isn't

Page 3949

1 that correct?

2 A. Yes. We only provided statements before the Tribunal in that

3 case.

4 Q. I wanted to read out the transcript of that proceedings and what

5 you said then, and perhaps we can confirm the transcript is in English and

6 you will be hearing the translation in B/C/S.

7 For the Chamber and the OTP, those are pages 1066 and 67 of the

8 transcript.

9 "[In English] Did you take then later go to the hospital? When

10 did you go to the hospital?

11 "We went afterwards when the shelling had subsided a bit. My

12 mother and I went to the hospital then. However, they wouldn't let me

13 come to see my father."

14 [Interpretation] Did you state this before the Tribunal?

15 A. If it is in the transcript, I must have. But this is in relation

16 to the next day, the day after he was injured, and not the day when he

17 fell off the rope.

18 Q. On that first day when you say that you went to the hospital to

19 see him, did you manage to see him, indeed?

20 A. I did. I did see him.

21 Q. Did you speak to him?

22 A. Very briefly. I wanted to stay longer, but he wouldn't allow me,

23 so I left.

24 Q. Had he been examined by that time? Did he tell you anything about

25 that?

Page 3950

1 A. No. As I said, it was a very short period.

2 Q. Was there any shelling that day of the city when you went to the

3 hospital?

4 A. Yes, there was.

5 Q. Where was your mother, since she didn't know that you went to the

6 hospital during shelling, since you left the apartment in the neighbouring

7 building and went to the hospital to see your father? Where was she?

8 A. My mother was going through the building to find a place where we

9 could stay the night. And when she was there I secretly left to the

10 hospital.

11 Q. How much later after your father's fall did that take place?

12 A. Perhaps a few hours later. I left sometime in the afternoon, and

13 I don't know exactly when he fell.

14 Q. When did you return?

15 A. Immediately after. I went to the hospital, my father wouldn't

16 allow me to stay, and I returned immediately.

17 Q. Did your mother notice your absence? Did she ask you where you

18 were?

19 A. Yes, she did, and I told her where I went.

20 Q. What was the second time you went to the hospital?

21 A. My mother found an abandoned apartment in that building; that's

22 where we spent the night. The next day in the afternoon somebody came to

23 tell us that our father told us to go to the hospital and that there was

24 going to be an evacuation and a convoy organised from there. We couldn't

25 leave right away because there was heavy shelling as well as rain. We

Page 3951

1 packed some things that we had left, and together with a few other people

2 from the building we started moving towards the hospital. It was dark by

3 that time.

4 Q. That first night when you went to the hospital for the second

5 time, did you spend the night there? When you went there with your

6 mother.

7 A. Yes, I did. If one could say that we slept any, but yes, we did

8 spend the night in the hospital.

9 Q. In your testimony in Dokmanovic case, did you state that on that

10 first day you returned and that your mother remained in the hospital and

11 that you went back to the hospital next day?

12 A. I don't remember stating that. My mother and I went together to

13 the hospital, and we stayed in the hospital that day. And the day before

14 that I went there by myself.

15 Q. I wanted to quote another part of the transcript from the

16 Dokmanovic case, page 1067.

17 "[In English] My mother and I went to the hospital then. However,

18 they wouldn't let me come to see my father because they didn't want to

19 tell me that he was immobile. So they took me back home, and my mother

20 stayed on.

21 "Question: I see. Now, did you then later go up to the hospital

22 yourself?

23 "My father told me -- told my mother that evacuation was to take

24 place from the Vukovar Hospital and that we should go back to the Vukovar

25 Hospital together. So on 18th we came to the hospital together."

Page 3952

1 [Interpretation] Did you state that?

2 A. I don't know. I don't remember having stated any such thing.

3 Because there is a confusion in my head in terms of the sequence of

4 events. I don't remember having stated this.

5 Q. The few nights you spent in the hospital, where did you spend them

6 and who with?

7 A. The first night when mother and I arrived to the hospital, my

8 mother stayed with the father, next to him, or on his bed. I spent the

9 night with my grandmother on the first floor of the hospital.

10 Q. And you spent the rest of your nights until the day when the

11 people with the list appeared? That's what you stated during

12 examination-in-chief.

13 A. I spent one night downstairs in the waiting-room. I don't know

14 how many nights I spent on the first floor. One for certain, I don't know

15 whether there were more. But the night before we left the Vukovar

16 Hospital, that's when I was in the waiting-room.

17 Q. Your uncle, Ivan Dosen, was with you because he had come to the

18 hospital on one of those days, although he wasn't wounded. Isn't that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was he also on the first floor with you?

22 A. Occasionally.

23 Q. You said many civilians came to the hospital, many Vukovar

24 residents, and that Dr. Bosanac told them to go to Velepromet because they

25 should be evacuated from there and that to a large extent most of them

Page 3953

1 left. Can you tell us why your uncle, Ivan, didn't leave with the rest to

2 the Velepromet?

3 A. I don't know. Nobody could force anyone to go. We stayed as

4 well, my mother and I, as well as some other people. I don't know why he

5 stayed.

6 Q. Did you ever find out from your mother or your father that after

7 the injury your father was left paralysed?

8 A. My mother told me subsequently that he was told by the doctors

9 that in case he should be operated any time soon he had a chance of

10 walking again, but they didn't have the conditions necessary for the

11 operation in the hospital, and if that didn't take place, he could remain

12 paralysed.

13 Q. And your mother told you that he was told that by the doctors?

14 A. Yes, I believe so, that he was told by the doctors.

15 Q. Did you see him being able to move any part of his body, arms or

16 legs?

17 A. He could move his legs and arms, but as far as the upper part of

18 his body, he couldn't sit, sit up. And he also couldn't stand on his own

19 feet, irrespective of the fact that he could move his legs.

20 Q. Yesterday you told us about the soldiers you saw in the hospital.

21 Would you agree with me if I told you that you saw them on the 19th in the

22 afternoon, that is, one day before the evacuation?

23 A. It is possible, I don't know the exact date. I know they came in

24 in the afternoon before the evacuation. I can't tell you the exact date.

25 Q. Today you described two different types of soldiers, the JNA

Page 3954

1 soldiers and the Chetniks. This term "Chetniks," does that correspond to

2 the category you used before in your prior statements when you said they

3 were reservists or, rather, locals from Vukovar?

4 A. Yes. But there is a problem with defining a reservist. He could

5 be a member of the JNA, or something else. But those were the terms in

6 general use among the population at the time. There were certain names

7 for Croats and certain names for Serbs.

8 Q. I understand. I just wanted to clarify that the people you termed

9 reservists in your prior statements are now the people you were calling

10 Chetniks. Those were actually people of local origin and paramilitaries?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you ever hear that -- any such thing as the Serb Territorial

13 Defence of Vukovar?

14 A. I may have, but I don't remember.

15 Q. I thank you for your answers.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

17 questions for the witness.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Vasic.

19 Ms. Tapuskovic.

20 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

21 Cross-examination by Ms. Tapuskovic:

22 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Dosen. My name is Marina Tapuskovic --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, Mira Tapuskovic.

24 Q. I am one of the counsel for Mr. Radic. I will probably pause

25 between my questions because Mr. Vasic already exhausted a part of my

Page 3955

1 questions, and I will try to revise my list of questions accordingly.

2 You said that when the conflict in Vukovar broke out you lived

3 with your parents on the banks of the Danube. Isn't that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You were a 14-year-old girl then. Did you used to play with your

6 friends on the banks of the Danube?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You said that at the time your mother was a housewife and that

9 your father was a private entrepreneur. Could you define private

10 entrepreneurship or, rather, what exactly did your father do?

11 A. He was a private fisherman and he had his own catering

12 establishment. He had no employer; he was self-employed.

13 Q. And did your father own a boat?

14 A. Yes, of course.

15 Q. Did you used to take rides on that boat together with your father

16 on the Danube?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was it a motor boat?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Before the war did you ever cross the Danube on your father's

21 boat?

22 A. No, we didn't go to the other side, but we went to the island in

23 the middle.

24 Q. How long did it take you to reach the island?

25 A. A couple of minutes.

Page 3956

1 Q. In the summer of 1991 did you notice some children, some Serb

2 classmates of yours leave Vukovar?

3 A. Since a number of Serb children were in my class, I noticed that a

4 number of them were absent during the last month of school.

5 Q. Did the school authorities ever explain to you why those children

6 stopped attending school?

7 A. I don't know whether the school authorities did any such thing,

8 but I knew that a lot of children used to come from the nearby villages,

9 and I presumed they couldn't come because of the barricades or for some

10 other reason. At that time I couldn't grasp exactly what was going on.

11 Q. But you probably asked your parents, what is this log revolution,

12 and what is going on?

13 A. As for the term of the log revolution, I am not clear what you

14 have in mind, but I did realise that there was a conflict between Croats

15 and Serbs, because Croatia wanted to become independent.

16 Q. Croatia's declaration of independence was also mentioned in the

17 statement you gave in 1995. How old were you back in 1995?

18 A. 18.

19 Q. Do you know when Croatia declared its independence?

20 A. 1990 or 1991.

21 Q. I wanted to ask you.

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Do you know when it became a UN member?

24 A. I know that it was recognised on the 15th of January, 1992, I

25 believe.

Page 3957

1 Q. By Germany, I believe?

2 A. I don't think it was Germany who recognised us first. I don't

3 know that part of history that well.

4 Q. Did you at the time know whether your father was a member of any

5 party?

6 A. Yes, he did. Yes, he was. He was an HDZ member.

7 Q. And you know that when the conflict broke out in Vukovar?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you perhaps know when your father first became a member of the

10 HDZ?

11 A. No, I don't know.

12 Q. When the shelling of Vukovar began, you say the shells were coming

13 from the opposite river-bank. Isn't that right?

14 A. Some from the opposite river-bank and some bombs were being

15 dropped from planes.

16 Q. Yes, but there were shells coming from the opposite river-bank

17 too, right? You said a while ago that it would have taken a couple of

18 minutes to reach the island of Ada. How long do you think it would have

19 taken you to reach the opposite river-bank?

20 A. Likewise, a couple of minutes. You can swim across.

21 Q. Do you know how large the Danube is across from your house if you

22 take a straight line across the Danube to the other river-bank?

23 A. I don't know, but I think that probably depends on the water

24 level.

25 Q. Would you accept it if I put it to you that the Danube is over 200

Page 3958

1 metres across there?

2 A. It never struck me as that vast, really, because it didn't seem

3 that far. You could see everything on the opposite river-bank.

4 Q. It was in this way that you saw all the barrels that you described

5 on the opposite river-bank, tank barrels or whatever you said it was?

6 A. Yes, you could see them firing. We were outside in the garden on

7 our way to fetch water. It was difficult to get any water at the time.

8 And you could see the muzzle flashes from the opposite river-bank.

9 Q. When clashes broke out in Vukovar, was it not the case, in fact,

10 that your father was more and more absent from your home?

11 A. When the first clashes broke out, they set up some sort of a guard

12 duty in certain streets, certain neighbourhoods, that sort of thing. My

13 father was at the Nama department store. That was his posting, his

14 assignment, because by this time the food supplies had been cut off for

15 the town of Vukovar. There was no food, and whatever food was still

16 available was being distributed to people right there.

17 Q. Let me try to rephrase my question then. Until the time you moved

18 to Olajnica, did your father spend every night with you in your house on

19 the river-banks?

20 A. I don't remember about the time we moved, but I know that after we

21 moved he no longer slept with us in the same flat, except when he was

22 wounded. That was the only time he stayed home.

23 Q. These duty shifts that your father had at the Nama department

24 store, how long were these usually? Day shifts, two-day shifts?

25 A. I don't know that much about it. I know that he was there, he was

Page 3959

1 distributing food and he would bring food back home. But I'm not sure how

2 long the shifts were.

3 Q. First of all, tell me, did you ever see your father bring home any

4 weapons to your house on the river-banks; and secondly, did you ever see

5 your father bring home any weapons to the flat at Olajnica?

6 A. My father had a carbine which he had a valid licence for. It was

7 a declared rifle. He kept it somewhere or other in our home. So each

8 time he went to his assignment he probably brought it along. But I'm not

9 sure if he did or not. And he probably kept it out of reach for us, the

10 children in his home. But he did have a clean licence and he owned this

11 rifle.

12 Q. Did he have any short-barrels, something that was smaller than a

13 rifle?

14 A. When we moved to the flat at Olajnica, when the shelling turned

15 heavy, and the town's life became difficult, he brought that pistol that

16 he left for me and my mother. He was leaving us alone, he said, and we

17 should keep this for our own protection, but I have no idea where he got

18 it.

19 Q. That was my next question. Did your father ever tell you or your

20 mother when you were present where he had obtained that weapon?

21 A. No, he didn't.

22 Q. Do you know anything about Tadija Dosen and his possible

23 activities or his possible involvement with Croatia's military bodies or

24 units?

25 A. All I know is that he joined the defence when the whole thing

Page 3960

1 began. But must have been in late August or early September. I don't

2 know the exact time he joined, but I know that he did join because

3 everybody was joining the defence forces. Those who had not joined yet

4 were mobilised.

5 Q. This means that all the members of the Dosen family joined

6 Vukovar's defence, didn't they?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You mean the men?

9 A. Yes, of course.

10 Q. You say that all those who had not yet joined any of the defence

11 units were eventually mobilised. Who was in charge of this mobilisation?

12 A. I really don't know, but I know that all able-bodied men were

13 mobilised at some point. I'm not sure who was in charge of this

14 mobilisation.

15 Q. You say that when you moved to Olajnica the building there had no

16 window-panes because all the window-panes had been shattered by shells.

17 Isn't that a fact?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You also testified that the windows were boarded up and blankets

20 were placed over it.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you perhaps remember if your father used a piece of plastic

23 sheeting to cover the window and to replace the glass pane, as it were?

24 A. I don't remember that.

25 Q. That's what your mother appears to be suggesting in her testimony.

Page 3961

1 A. I have no idea at all what my mother stated.

2 Q. Furthermore, you say that after your father's fall from the

3 balcony a makeshift stretcher was made on the spot by using pieces of what

4 used to be a door. Is that right?

5 A. Yes. Some planks, splinters of wood, maybe used to be a door, but

6 they used this to make a stretcher to carry him off.

7 Q. Fair enough. But this was not a stretcher that was made

8 specifically for the purpose of carrying wounded people. It was just

9 something that they made right there and then as quickly as they could?

10 A. Yes, I think so.

11 Q. Do you perhaps happen to know that all the buildings, especially

12 at Olajnica, had stretchers ready for cases like these?

13 A. I'm sure that our building had no stretcher.

14 Q. Can you perhaps remember what your father was wearing and what you

15 had been doing just before the fire broke out in your building?

16 A. I don't know. I don't know what he was wearing. I don't know

17 what we'd been doing. I can't remember at all. Every day was much the

18 same for us, so it's difficult to distinguish.

19 Q. Can you remember what time of day it was when the fire broke out?

20 A. I think it was sometime in the morning. It was day-time, I'm

21 certain about that.

22 Q. You testified that the transfer of your father to the hospital

23 building was somehow organised. My question is by whom? Did your

24 neighbours help you with this?

25 A. Those were just people who happened to be outside the building at

Page 3962

1 the time because there were many buildings that were ablaze, not just our

2 building. All the residents had rushed out, and those who happened to be

3 in front of the building tried to give us a hand.

4 Q. Were all of these persons men?

5 A. Yes. If I remember correctly, I have no time to go back to your

6 transcript now, when answering one of my colleague's Vasic's questions you

7 told us that there were no men there at all.

8 A. Yes, I was talking about our building. That wasn't in reference

9 to any of the neighbouring buildings. Some of the neighbouring buildings

10 were ablaze, and everybody was rushing out of the burning buildings. They

11 just happened to be there and they helped carry my father, take him to the

12 hospital. What I said in my testimony was there were no men in our

13 building.

14 Q. Thank you, fair enough. You say you can't remember exactly the

15 day when your father was injured. You can't, can you?

16 A. I do know the date, as a matter of fact, because later on I went

17 through some documents that my mother had brought from the Vukovar

18 Hospital. I know that he was admitted to the hospital on the 16th of

19 November.

20 Q. You say that your father sent someone over to convey a message to

21 you to tell you that you should get ready and go straight to the Vukovar

22 Hospital because an evacuation was in the offing. Isn't that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us who the messenger was? Did you know this person?

25 A. I don't remember who it was.

Page 3963

1 Q. Perhaps one of the Dosen family?

2 A. I don't know. I just remember that it was a man, but I can't

3 remember who precisely.

4 Q. Once you were off to the hospital with your mother, you said that

5 there were only women and children in this group of people moving towards

6 the hospital?

7 A. It wasn't really a large group of people. It was just several

8 people from the building, and we set out together. It was a very small

9 group of women and children.

10 Q. How many people, roughly speaking, would you say?

11 A. No more than a dozen, perhaps. Certainly no more than a dozen.

12 Q. Did you know all those people?

13 A. Some I did, some I knew by sight, they lived in the neighbouring

14 building.

15 Q. You knew for a fact that that -- there was a vacant flat in the

16 adjacent building, did you not?

17 A. There were a lot of such vacant flats. Very few people actually

18 remained in the buildings.

19 Q. What was the ethnic make-up of the local population at Olajnica?

20 A. I have no idea.

21 Q. Having arrived at the hospital, did you go to see your father and

22 stay there immediately?

23 A. I went straight to the first floor.

24 Q. Did you explain to your mother where your father was, since you

25 had seen him the evening before?

Page 3964

1 A. As soon as we reached the emergency ward entrance, we saw my

2 father lying there on the first bed in line. She spotted him immediately,

3 and I went up to the first floor.

4 Q. Once inside the hospital when was the first time you saw Ivan

5 Dosen?

6 A. That same evening.

7 Q. Did you ask him what he was doing there?

8 A. I have no idea what we talked about. I don't remember.

9 Q. When your mother and you arrived at the hospital you spent your

10 first night there with your grandmother on the first floor, or was it in

11 the waiting-room?

12 A. It was with my grandmother on the first floor that I spent the

13 night.

14 Q. Which -- was there anyone else in addition to your grandmother and

15 you on that floor?

16 A. There were many people streaming into the hospital that night. It

17 was getting crowded, and that's why the next morning Dr. Bosanac said that

18 people could not linger around the hospital anymore, because the

19 conditions were abysmal, and the room should be made in the hospital, that

20 was what she said, and those who weren't forced to remain in the hospital

21 were asked to leave.

22 Q. Once your father's name had been called out, once your father had

23 been placed on a stretcher by those nurses, once you had left the

24 waiting-room, were both you and your mother searched?

25 A. No.

Page 3965

1 Q. Can you please describe or say when exactly your father gave you a

2 necklace?

3 A. It was the day before. I'm not sure about the time of the day,

4 but it was earlier on. I tucked it into my shirt and managed to hold on

5 to it.

6 Q. Thank you. When your father was placed on a stretcher and taken

7 to that third bus, as you described, can you remember what your father was

8 wearing at this time?

9 A. All I remember is he was wearing a sleeveless pullover jumper.

10 I'm not sure what else he had on because he had a blanket on top of his

11 body, but I know that it was a sleeveless jumper because he had a

12 plaster-cast down the whole length of his arm, and he could not have worn

13 anything else.

14 Q. You described the whole sequence of events to us today when your

15 relative Ivan was taken off the bus and then Ruzica Markobasic was

16 frisked. Can you please rerun, as it were, the sequence for us? What

17 happened first and what followed?

18 A. All of this happened in a quick succession. Ruzica was brought

19 there and Martin was taken off the bus. It all happened very quickly.

20 It's very difficult to be more specific about the exact sequence. I would

21 be hard put to say, based on my recollection. I did my best describing

22 these events the first time around, but it was all close together. It was

23 a very quick succession of things happening.

24 Q. You described a situation where someone placed in your mother's

25 hand some money which belonged to Ruzica Markobasic?

Page 3966

1 A. Yes, it was a soldier who was searching her bag.

2 Q. Did you see what was being placed into your mother's hand?

3 A. When my mother opened her palm, I saw something red lying there,

4 but then she uttered it immediately. She said, "I have no use for this

5 money." I saw bank-notes. I clearly saw bank-notes.

6 Q. Did your mother tell you how much money was there?

7 A. No, we didn't discuss that at all.

8 Q. Do you remember what time it was when representatives of the

9 European Community arrived?

10 A. All I know is that once we boarded the bus with all the other

11 women and children I happened to still have my watch on me. I looked at

12 my watch, and I seem to remember that it was 11.00.

13 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

14 cross-examination. I have no further questions for this witness. Thank

15 you.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Tapuskovic.

17 It's obviously a convenient time now to have a break, give the

18 witness an opportunity to have a few moments of peace. And we will resume

19 at 6.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

23 MR. SMITH: Good evening, Your Honour. Just one short matter.

24 I've spoken to my friend, Mr. Lukic, and he believes that the

25 cross-examination may, in fact, is likely to take the hour, and we're

Page 3967

1 wondering whether or not we could release the witness that is waiting or

2 we can have the witness standing by.

3 JUDGE PARKER: No, the witness can be released.

4 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic. Now, that gives you an unusual liberty,

6 Mr. Lukic. I hope you don't need the full hour.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In all honesty, Your Honour, I hope

8 I'll be able to finish today, so that I don't have to think about things

9 overnight and we continue tomorrow in the morning in any case, and I tried

10 preparing for the next witness during the night before, and believe me, it

11 gave me a lot of headache.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

13 Q. Madam, my name is Lukic. I'm counsel for Mr. Sljivancanin, and I

14 wanted to ask some questions on his behalf.

15 We all know who you are, but there was something missing in the

16 transcript. To be more precise, your name, your name is Tanja Dosen, and

17 your mother's name is Ljubica. Isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I just wanted to make that clarification for the transcript.

20 In my examination I will mainly refer to the events of the 19th

21 and the 20th of November. As you explained to my colleagues, you -- when

22 you said that you spent the first night in the hospital together with your

23 grandmother on the first floor. And then you spent another night with

24 your father. Why were you not allowed to spend the night with your

25 father, next to his bed?

Page 3968

1 A. Not that I wasn't allowed, but there was simply not enough room.

2 Everything was full of beds and the wounded, and my mother was actually

3 sitting next to his feet on his bed. It was impossible for me to stay.

4 Since my grandmother was in the hospital in any case, I joined her on the

5 first floor.

6 Q. I presume that next evening the number of the people in the

7 hospital did not go down, therefore you were forced to stay where you

8 were?

9 A. A number of people left to Velepromet, because Dr. Bosanac said

10 that they should go there and that the hospital could not hold them any

11 longer. So the number of people decreased.

12 Q. Was your mother with your father throughout the 19th and the 20th

13 before you left in the morning?

14 A. Yes, she was.

15 Q. Was she present when you saw Mr. Sljivancanin at the door when he

16 came in and introduced himself?

17 A. I don't remember exactly whether -- whether my mother was in the

18 room. She may have gone to the toilet or something, but otherwise she

19 spent most of her time there.

20 Q. You were also present when, on the 20th, in the morning the

21 soldier read out your father's name from the list. Isn't that correct?

22 A. Yes, I was next to the bed.

23 Q. Do you know Binazija Kolesar, aka Biba? Does that name tell you

24 anything?

25 A. I heard that name in the hospital, but I cannot put a face next to

Page 3969

1 the name.

2 Q. The medical records your mother kept, she also had that with her

3 on the 20th in the morning when the evacuation began?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you were also present there?

6 A. Yes. I spent the whole morning next to my father's bed.

7 Q. Let us now go to the moment when your father was put on the

8 stretcher. As I understood that, you waited for him to be put on a

9 stretcher and then all three of you left the hospital. Did you see when

10 other people began going out of the hospital, that is, how much before you

11 started going out?

12 A. When the names were called out, my mother said that my father

13 couldn't leave without a stretcher and then the nurses brought the

14 stretcher in. And by that time people started coming out of the hospital,

15 we had to stay there and wait for that stretcher and then he was supposed

16 to be moved from the bed onto the stretcher, and then the nurses couldn't

17 do it and the soldiers came. It probably lasted for some time, but

18 throughout that period people were leaving the hospital.

19 Q. That's how I understood that as well. But in other words, you

20 cannot tell us approximately what the duration was?

21 A. No, I cannot.

22 Q. Timewise, as you started moving towards the exit and until you

23 reached the bus, how long did that take?

24 A. Not long. As one would leave the emergency ward, go through the

25 tunnel, so to speak, although it was actually a corridor, and the time you

Page 3970

1 need to reach the street. We were walking behind the stretcher, and it

2 couldn't have lasted long. We were walking slowly, but we didn't stop

3 anywhere apart from the moment when the soldier asked my mother if we were

4 searched. She said that we were, and then we continued walking to the

5 bus.

6 Q. When you reached the bus and your father's stretcher was put down

7 on the ground, and you described the bus earlier, but did you pay

8 attention to what the other buses looked like and whether there were

9 already people on board?

10 A. As we were approaching the buses people were getting on already.

11 Q. In your today's testimony and in the corrections made to your

12 prior statement, we learned that as you were approaching the buses you saw

13 my client, Mr. Sljivancanin, talk to some soldiers. Isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Therefore, the way I read it is that he had already been there

16 before you reached the third bus, and I presume you passed by him?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. As you confirmed before this Chamber, you testified in the

19 Dokmanovic case, and in the proofing for your testimony you were also

20 shown the statement you provided to the OTP as well as your testimony in

21 the Dokmanovic case, and I wanted to quote briefly some of the things you

22 stated on page 1076. This is the transcript from the Dokmanovic case, the

23 date being the 6th of February, 1998. This was a question put by the

24 Defence and he asked you when you saw Sljivancanin, you answered:

25 "[In English] Well, how much time is needed to get from the

Page 3971

1 basement to the street?

2 "Perhaps about 10 or 15 minutes, and then we stood there for

3 about 15 or 20 minutes when he came, then my mother talked with him."

4 [Interpretation] Do you remember stating this?

5 A. Yes. And that is correct.

6 Your Honour, may I address you directly? There is a problem.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Concerning the Dokmanovic case, we

9 gave some simple statements. We didn't go into much detail. Now some

10 things are resurfacing. We are going much more into detail than we did

11 before when I was giving that statement in the first place. My statement

12 concerning the Dokmanovic case was a short one, not very detailed.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, but I think you should just

14 continue trying to help Mr. Lukic with answering his questions. We'll

15 take what you have said into account.

16 Now, I have noticed your -- are you having trouble with your

17 ear-phones?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The headphones keep falling off my

19 head. But in any case, I can hear everything.

20 JUDGE PARKER: I think for the most part you could take the

21 ear-phones off and you would hear Mr. Lukic quite clearly. He's got a

22 good, loud, clear voice. So if you wanted to take them off, it will be

23 all right.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I believe it must be more comfortable without the headphones in

Page 3972

1 any case.

2 A. Regarding your question, this is also correct, that he came later,

3 but I also saw him, I passed by him.

4 Q. Timewise I realise that was quite a long time ago, you were young,

5 and having in mind all the things that were taking place, you must have

6 been quite upset, therefore I would kindly ask you for an answer, if you

7 can give me one. When you reached the third bus, how much time did pass

8 before your mother went to speak with someone? How long were you standing

9 there?

10 A. We stood there for quite some time. I can't say how long, but

11 some time through all the events.

12 Q. Did there come a moment when people stopped boarding the buses,

13 when the buses were full? Can you recall that?

14 A. I don't remember the buses anymore. I wasn't paying attention,

15 because we were facing our -- that one particular bus. And as regards the

16 events concerning the third bus, that was taking place on the other side,

17 so our attention was there. I wasn't paying attention to the other buses,

18 how many people boarded, who came out, I really don't know. The only

19 thing I know is what I saw in passing.

20 Q. So you can't put any time framework on these events?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Can we conclude therefore that after -- right after the

23 conversation your mother came back to you and then you went back towards

24 the hospital?

25 A. Yes. After the conversation we waited for the soldiers who took

Page 3973

1 the stretcher and the father, and my father was taken to one side and my

2 mother and I went to the right, towards the emergency ward, and then we

3 went to the other side of the hospital.

4 Q. During the proofing you were given an opportunity to go in detail

5 through the statement provided to the OTP back in 1995, and you were also

6 given an opportunity to remind yourself of the testimony in the Dokmanovic

7 case, and that resulted in the corrections made to your statement dated

8 two days ago. That's how I came to that conclusion. Isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. From the corrections we received, we realised that there was a

11 correction related to what you said today. That is, that you overheard

12 the conversation you reproduced for us today. You said that you heard

13 your mother speak to someone, but that you don't know who that person was,

14 and that then that your mother subsequently told you that she spoke with

15 my client. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes. Perhaps I was over-excited and I may have -- I may have said

17 that I heard and that I couldn't see, because my back was turned towards

18 them. I may have used an unfortunate term, nobody reacted at the time. I

19 was quite excited, and -- but in any case, I couldn't see who she was

20 talking to because my back was turned towards them.

21 Q. Could you please focus on my question, because you've already

22 explained what you're telling us now. Today you told us what you can

23 remember concerning that conversation. We heard your mother's testimony

24 yesterday; you're probably familiar with the fact that she testified

25 yesterday. She never mentioned that Sljivancanin said that your father

Page 3974

1 was to put on the truck [as interpreted], but rather that she understood

2 that he was going to be taken back to the hospital. Is that the way you

3 remember that?

4 A. I heard him ask why he wasn't on the bus, and my mother said that

5 he couldn't be put on the bus because the stretcher couldn't fit through

6 the door and then he said that they would bring a truck. That's what I

7 heard. I don't know what my mother stated.

8 Q. Therefore, you heard that, but you never saw the person that your

9 mother spoke with?

10 A. As that conversation is concerned, I didn't.

11 Q. Yes, I am interested in that conversation.

12 A. Then I did not.

13 Q. As you described, there was some soldiers in front of the bus as

14 well. Did you see any other officer in front of the bus?

15 A. No. I just saw the soldiers guarding the bus. I didn't see

16 anyone else.

17 Q. From your testimony I was given an impression that was very

18 stressful and traumatic for you and that were you crying and that you were

19 upset. Another thing that your mother stated, and perhaps you can confirm

20 that for me, is that after the events she discussed them quite often with

21 you, and she said that you had a lot of questions about what had happened

22 that day.

23 My question hence is the following: Did you discuss the events

24 with your mother in the subsequent years?

25 A. Yes, of course I did. But the way I understood the events could

Page 3975

1 differ from my mother's account. You should ask her what she thought

2 happened.

3 Q. I am just trying to verify some facts regarding those

4 conversations, and you are here to tell us to the best of your knowledge

5 and under oath what it was that you heard.

6 After the conversation you described for us in detail, your mother

7 came back to you and she was pushing you in front of her to go back to the

8 hospital courtyard. Isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And as you were going back towards the hospital she didn't talk to

11 anyone else during that time?

12 A. As far as I know, she did not.

13 Q. Before you started going back, you overheard the conversation

14 concerning the belongings, and you described that today, that a person

15 said what would he need his belongings for. But did you turn around to

16 see whose words those were?

17 A. I did not. I was watching the bus and what was happening there.

18 My gaze was fixed on the people who were on that bus. I was listening to

19 what people were saying behind me, but then I did not turn around to look.

20 Q. We will have a look at the statement given to the OTP in 1995. I

21 will give you both statements in the B/C/S and in English. First we will

22 take a look at the English version. Could you please confirm for me

23 whether on each of the pages of the statement there is a signature of

24 yours?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3976

1 Q. Please go to the B/C/S statement. It is not signed, but we will

2 deal with it in some detail. As far as I can see, and I'm asking you if

3 you can remember, on the first page it states that on the 6th of September

4 an interview was made with you. In the original English version, I can

5 see that you signed on the 7th, the next day. Is that how you remember

6 it?

7 A. Yes, I can see that. It may have been so. They came to see us,

8 we were still in exile in a hotel room. It is possible that I signed on

9 the 7th.

10 Q. When you signed, the statement was read out to you, and you also

11 signed a witness acknowledgement that this statement was given to the best

12 of your knowledge and voluntarily, and there is a signature there as well.

13 Please go to page 3; in particular, the part marked in yellow.

14 Please read it aloud, slowly. We have provided an English copy to the

15 interpreters. So perhaps you could read that portion out for us. Aloud,

16 please.

17 A. May I begin? "At one point my mother went off to speak with Major

18 Sljivancanin to find out what was happening. I could not hear what the

19 conversation that took place because I stayed by my father. My mother

20 returned within a few minutes but did not say anything to me. Two

21 soldiers followed closely. My father was saying, Take my daughter away

22 from all of this. I remember him taking off his watch and giving it to my

23 mother".

24 Q. Please slow down a bit. You don't need the headphones.

25 A. "I also remember my cousin Martin being brought out of the

Page 3977

1 hospital, and I spoke to him, asking him what was going on. His words to

2 the effect, Don't worry, sister, everything will be all right. Two young

3 soldiers lifted my father's stretcher and started to carry it to another

4 position. My mother was pushing me ahead of her. My father was being

5 carried behind us. I remember her asking someone what would happen with

6 my father's belongings, and the reply was something like, He won't be

7 needing them anymore. I cannot say who said this because it was said

8 behind me."

9 Q. Thank you. This statement was shown to you the other day by the

10 OTP, and we now realise that you have made certain amendments in

11 accordance with your testimony today. Is that a fact?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In point of fact, several minutes ago you confirmed that you were

14 probably quite agitated at the time and that is what accounts for the

15 discrepancy between your two statements.

16 My question to you now is: Back in 1995 your recollection of

17 everything that had gone on must have been a lot fresher than today.

18 Wouldn't that seem to be a fair suggestion?

19 A. That may as well be the case. It's quite probable, actually.

20 Q. This is something you confirmed to me a while ago. Throughout the

21 years, you talked to your mother a great deal and you discussed the

22 unfortunate events that befell you. Is that so?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You also attended an interview that your mother gave to an

25 investigator of the OTP on the 22nd of August, 1995 in Zagreb. The person

Page 3978

1 she talked to was Dennis Milner. She provided detailed account of her

2 conversation with my client and everything else that had occurred. Did

3 you attend this interview?

4 A. Yes, that was because we were staying in a hotel at the time. It

5 was all happening in one room. I had nowhere else to go. So, yes, I was

6 physically present.

7 Q. You were there, you heard the interview, this must have refreshed

8 your memory. And yet 15 days later when you provided your own statement

9 to the OTP, you claimed that you had never heard the substance of a

10 dialogue, a conversation with Mr. Sljivancanin. In fact, you signed that

11 statement, didn't you?

12 A. That may well have been the case, but that is not to say that I

13 could not have been wrong. I may have made an error. I may have

14 misspoken or misphrased something. Sometimes it's on account of my

15 agitation that I make mistakes.

16 Q. But were you not, in fact, reminded of this dialogue later on when

17 you spoke to your mother?

18 A. We don't really talk about it very often. The images that still

19 haunt me and all the things I remember can never be changed. Even if I

20 discussed this with my mother, what I experienced, what I saw and heard

21 back then, I'm not saying that I can't be wrong about details, but all

22 these images that will stay with me cannot be changed in any way. My

23 experience was one thing; my mother's experience was a different thing

24 altogether. We are two different persons. Our stories are alike because

25 we were both there physically, same place, same time, and we experienced

Page 3979

1 the same things. Can't be that different, because we were both there.

2 The place was the same, and the persons, the protagonists were the same.

3 Q. Just several questions in relation to this statement. You can

4 have some time to go through it, if you like, but if you can just tell me

5 whether at any point in that 1995 statement you mentioned the fact that

6 Sljivancanin had arrived at the hospital on the 19th and introduced

7 himself to you. Did you mention this at any point in time in your

8 statement?

9 A. I may not have mentioned that, just because it was a perfunctory

10 statement that was taken. In the Dokmanovic case my mother testified

11 before me, and she probably gave a more substantial account. When I

12 appeared, I was asked a number of perfunctory questions, and the issue of

13 the time-line was not raised as it has been here today. This is a

14 perfunctory statement. It is not a very thorough statement.

15 Q. I agree with you, as far as what you said about the Dokmanovic

16 case. It was a different person that was involved there, that is true.

17 But this statement was taken back in 1995, and the person investigated was

18 my client. Did Milner ask you anything about Mr. Sljivancanin, my client,

19 or did he only ask you questions about Mr. Dokmanovic, who was on trial

20 back then?

21 A. When I appeared here to testify, no one asked me anything about

22 your client. This statement was produced based on the account I then gave

23 of what had occurred. That is how this statement came about. I wasn't

24 interviewed or examined in great detail about anything. It was about the

25 Dokmanovic case back then and it was not only to do with your client.

Page 3980

1 Q. We can leave the statement for the time being, I have several

2 questions left. Does the name of Darko Vuk, aka Drka [as interpreted],

3 ring a bell?

4 A. Yes, it does. But seeing as my father owned a boat, I think this

5 was another person who also owned a boat that bore the same name. I may

6 have seen this person at one time or another back then. I may have known

7 the person by sight, but nothing more.

8 Q. You talked today about walking together with your mother and

9 father. As you were passing through that tunnel, so to speak, on the way

10 out of the hospital where people were being searched and eventually

11 reaching Gunduliceva Street, said you saw both buses and lorries when you

12 got there. Is that a fact?

13 A. Yes, buses and lorries of sorts, small ones. Military ones. Or,

14 rather, they were olive -- well, you know, dark ones.

15 Q. Let us please go back for a minute to that photograph, if I could

16 just have a clean copy, please. This is Exhibit 173, if I'm not mistaken.

17 And -- just a minute, please.

18 The photograph is from a set. This is 170, and the photograph

19 number is 5.

20 Can you see that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. 00531260. Can you see it now?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you please take that electronic pen again, if I can have the

25 usher's assistance, please, to help the witness. It's right behind the

Page 3981

1 screen. We will just tackle this briefly and then we're about to

2 conclude.

3 You drew a sketch for the Prosecutor, you marked the position of

4 the buses. What I want to know is: Can you specify by using this

5 photograph the exact spot where you were with your father, where was the

6 third bus?

7 A. It was around here. The first, the second, and then the third.

8 Q. Can you put a letter A there, please.

9 A. [Marks]. There was no gate here and you could just drive straight

10 through. We were standing here, on this side, just outside.

11 Q. You told us that your mother had gone off to speak to my client.

12 You probably didn't see her return or where she returned from. If you

13 did, can you please put an arrow there?

14 A. It wasn't like she that went anywhere far. It was a stone's throw

15 from where we were standing. We were standing outside the bus, because

16 that's where they laid down the stretcher. It was a stone's throw from

17 where we were standing, perhaps one or two metres. It's not that she

18 walked away in order to go somewhere and speak to someone, she was right

19 there.

20 Q. Where did you see Mr. Sljivancanin as you were leaving the

21 hospital compound and going towards the buses? Where was he standing?

22 Can you put a letter B there, please.

23 A. Yes. I think it was around here, because we passed this spot on

24 our way to the buses. And this is the location, roughly speaking.

25 Q. Did you see any wounded lying in this area outside the bus on that

Page 3982

1 day, any other wounded?

2 A. I wasn't really paying attention, but I don't think so. I saw

3 those who were lined up against this wall, but none of them were lying

4 down.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have this

6 photograph admitted into evidence.

7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Under the reference 182, Your Honours.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Just another clarification about something that you raised today

11 in your testimony. When you headed back to the hospital, the main

12 entrance, if you like, where all the other women and children were, my

13 understanding is the buses were there, and you immediately went to those

14 civilian buses, as it were, that later drove you away?

15 A. Yes, we walked back through this passage, walked all the way back

16 to the emergency ward. They asked us if we wanted to go to Croatia or to

17 Serbia, mom said Croatia, and the buses were there already waiting for us.

18 Q. Very well. I have one general question stemming from some of your

19 answers while being cross-examined by my learned friends. You say that

20 you knew some of the persons mentioned by the OTP, Zvonko Juric, Josip

21 Kozul, Sinisa Veber, Ivo Vulic, Karlo Fitus, Ivo Ahmetovic. Did you know

22 at the time these persons had been in any way involved with Vukovar's

23 defence?

24 A. As I said before, those who didn't join of their own free will

25 were mobilised. Therefore, I am certain that all these persons in one way

Page 3983

1 or another took part in the town's defence.

2 Q. That was just something I based on one of your previous answers,

3 but thank you for clarifying the issue. Just a minute, please.

4 You also say that you met Sinisa Glavasevic at the hospital when

5 you came there to see your father. Had you ever seen him before then?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Virtually the first time you saw him was then, and after that you

8 saw him on the bus, didn't you?

9 A. Yes, on that third bus. All I knew was he had been working for

10 Radio Vukovar. I was familiar with his voice from a time while we were

11 still able to listen to the radio, but then I met him properly at the

12 hospital.

13 Q. Can you remember exactly what he was wearing first in the hospital

14 and then on the bus later on?

15 A. No, I really don't know.

16 Q. No detail that sticks in your mind?

17 A. No. So many people passed through that hospital that I'd really

18 be hard put to say.

19 Q. You identified Sinisa Glavasevic in that photograph based on your

20 memory of him, didn't you?

21 A. Yes, in addition to which I have seen a number of his photographs

22 over the years. There is some sort of a book that was published, Sinisa

23 Glavasevic's memories, or memoir, so I saw a photo of him that was

24 published in that book.

25 Q. I suppose in those photographs he looked much the same as in the

Page 3984

1 photograph that you were shown today, right?

2 A. I suppose the photographs date back to the same years because they

3 couldn't have taken any photographs of him later on.

4 Q. He was the same age as he was when you saw him at the hospital?

5 A. Yes, that sounds true.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have concluded my

8 cross-examination.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

10 Mr. Smith, is there any re-examination?

11 MR. SMITH: Just a few quick questions, Your Honour.

12 Re-examination by Mr. Smith:

13 Q. Witness, in answer to my learned friend's question that in the

14 1995 statement you said you may not have mentioned Mr. Sljivancanin in the

15 hospital the night before you left. Do you remember saying that?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. I'm now going to read you a small passage from the Dokmanovic case

18 dated the 6th of February, 1998 at page 1076, and it's the evidence that

19 you gave in that case, and I would like you to say whether you agree that

20 you said that.

21 "And my last question" - this is at line 11 - "at what time did

22 you last see Major Sljivancanin?

23 "I do not know exactly what time it was, but I just know that it

24 was on the 19th of November, before the evening began.

25 "I'm asking about the 20th. When did you first see him? You went

Page 3985

1 out at 7.00?

2 "Yes, we went out at 7.00.

3 "And when did you see him? Well, how much time is needed to get

4 from the basement to the street?

5 "Perhaps 10 to 15 minutes, and then we stood there for about 15

6 or 20 minutes when he came. Then my mother talked to him."

7 Do you agree that that was your evidence in the Dokmanovic case?

8 If you are unsure, just say, I am unsure, but yes or no?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And one last question: When the statement was taken in 1995, can

11 you tell the Chamber about how long it took for the investigator to take

12 that statement in terms of hours, if you can.

13 A. It only took a very short while. It was a superficial summary of

14 what had occurred. They only took a short time taking that statement, and

15 that's why the statement is the way it is. I think they focused much more

16 on my mother's statement than on my own.

17 Q. Witness, it's a two-page statement. Do you have any indication of

18 how many hours it took to take? And if you don't know, just say, I don't

19 know.

20 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm checking the English and the B/C/S

23 at the same time to see if there are any major differences, that's why I

24 decided to object. The text of the English is two pages long; the B/C/S

25 is two and a half pages. Just because the OTP take of the English version

Page 3986

1 proves to be very accurate, but mine wasn't.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Smith.

3 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

4 Q. Witness, do you agree that the English statement is two pages, the

5 one that you signed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If you could answer my question, can you indicate about how many

8 hours it took to take the statement? And if you can't say, just say, I

9 can't say.

10 A. I really don't know. I can't remember. I know that it was very

11 short.

12 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Smith.

14 You will be pleased to know that that is the end of your evidence.

15 I know it's been a long day for you, but you are now at the end of the

16 questioning. We would like to thank you for coming to The Hague to help

17 us and for the evidence that you have given. When we rise now, you will

18 be guided out, but you will be free then to go back home when you wish.

19 So thank you very much for your help.

20 We resume at 9.00 in the morning, and the last information I have

21 is that we continue in this courtroom. We don't move to any other

22 courtroom.

23 So 9.00 tomorrow morning here.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.51 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of

Page 3987

1 February, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.