Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3988

1 Thursday, 9 February 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. The apologies of the Chamber for

7 arriving late. We actually received a message that the witness was

8 delayed, and so we've been waiting in our Chambers. But the message

9 turned out to be mistaken.

10 Good morning, sir. Would you please take the card that's given to

11 you now and read aloud the affirmation.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.

15 Mr. Moore.

16 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, thank you very much. May I just deal

17 with the witness situation this morning. When the message was passed

18 through to the Bench, the witness was not here and there was no

19 interpreter here either. I thought it appropriate to pass the message

20 through so that the Bench wouldn't come and be inconvenienced. My

21 apologies if I've miscalculated slightly.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for taking precautions. Fortunately they

23 proved unnecessary.

24 MR. MOORE: May I now deal with the following witness, who is a

25 protected witness, 007.

Page 3989

1 Could the witness please be shown a confidential document and

2 indicate whether the names, details, and date of birth included are his

3 own.

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. My understanding is that this

11 witness has a pseudonym and facial distortion, but no voice distortion.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examination by Mr. Moore:

15 JUDGE PARKER: This will be received under seal.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 183, Your Honours.

17 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much indeed.

18 Q. Witness, may we deal, please, with the evidence that you have some

19 to give. I want to deal with some preliminary matters.

20 Is it right - and I can show you the document if you need to see

21 it - that you completed an official report for the Republic of Croatia,

22 the Ministry of the Interior. That was dated the 15th of May in 1992. Do

23 you remember compiling that report?

24 A. I do. I didn't actually write the report myself. I provided a

25 verbal account to a police officer who took it down.

Page 3990

1 Q. Thank you very much indeed. That was some six months after the

2 event at which you're going to give evidence.

3 Secondly, it's right, is it not, that you then compiled a report

4 for the Office of the Prosecutor for this institution. That was dated the

5 19th of June, 1995. That's right, is it not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That you have given evidence is what is called the Dokmanovic

8 trial. Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you have additionally given evidence at the Belgrade inquiry

11 or trial, which was the 24th of May of this year. Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. MOORE: Just to assist the Court, my learned friends, I

14 believe the date that this witness gave evidence in the Dokmanovic trial

15 was the 3rd of February of 1998.

16 Q. I'd like to, if I may, please, firstly refer to the date 1991, and

17 I think at that time you were in Vukovar. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. MOORE: Your Honours, may I just go into private session for a

20 moment to clarify one matter, please?

21 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 3991











11 Page 3991 redacted. Private session.















Page 3992

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

7 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

8 Q. Did you do a military service at any time?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And is it right - and I think it was in 1966 - you had to serve in

11 the JNA?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what part of the JNA did you serve?

14 A. I was with the infantry in Vrsac.

15 Q. And how long was your military service for?

16 A. One year.

17 Q. May we deal then, please, with the fact - I think you are a

18 married man - that you had two children. Is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I unfortunately with deal with one of those children in due

21 course.

22 And it's right, as you say, that you lived I believe in the centre

23 of Vukovar. Is that right?

24 A. Yes. Plumb in the centre.

25 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like to deal in general terms, if I may,

Page 3993

1 with August 1991 and what was occurring in Vukovar itself. Do you follow?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you in very general terms what happened towards the end of

4 August, how matters developed - I will use the word - militarily.

5 A. After May when the police officers in Borovo Selo had been killed,

6 the barricades were still there on all the roads leading to predominantly

7 Serb villages. You couldn't drive there or back. In the first days of

8 August, the first shells landed on the centre of Vukovar, the centre of

9 town, just in front of my house -- or rather, between my house and a

10 department store known as Zagrebacka Nama. That was when the whole thing

11 began.

12 Q. And the actual firing itself, did it continue?

13 A. It began with those two shells and then it continued throughout

14 the remaining months.

15 Q. Can you tell the Court, please -- you say that you were in the

16 centre of Vukovar at that time. Did you see, if we deal perhaps just with

17 August and September for the moment, where many of those shells landed,

18 general locations?

19 A. The very centre of town and also the surrounding area.

20 Q. If I deal with what could be called the fall of shot or the fall

21 of the shells, from what you could see were they being targeted on

22 military targets or not?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Well, can you explain to the Court why you say that? Can you give

25 us a picture, please, of what was happening?

Page 3994

1 A. There were no military targets in the centre of Vukovar to be

2 targeted individually. It was random shelling, and the aim was to hit

3 whatever they could.

4 Q. Did you, yourself, ever see airplanes in action over Vukovar?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I just want you to deal with what you actually saw, not what you

7 heard. Do you understand? So would you be kind enough, please, to tell

8 us what you saw.

9 A. We were standing outside in the courtyard that day. Two planes

10 came flying across the Danube, downstream, as it were. They came down

11 towards Vukovar and suddenly there was a powerful explosion. Once we had

12 taken shelter to our left, we first heard a loud bang and then we saw

13 smoke rising not far from our own building. I realised that one of the

14 buildings attached to the Eltz palace was on fire, the one housing the

15 administration of the Vupik Vukovar company.

16 Q. Did you at any time on other occasions see what I will call

17 civilian buildings being destroyed?

18 A. Those were civilian buildings, the ones I've just mentioned.

19 Q. But in addition to that, please.

20 A. The first shells landed near my house and the Nama department

21 store. All the windows were shattered. Several minutes or perhaps hours

22 later a shell landed near the Vuka high-rise and then several shells near

23 the bridge over the Vuka. And those were the first days of shelling;

24 that's what it was like.

25 Q. In very general terms, where was what I will call the front line

Page 3995

1 between JNA and Croat defenders at that time? Was that around where the

2 shells were falling?

3 A. The lines held by Croat defenders were out in the suburbs and

4 around Borovo Naselje. By no means did the lines coincide in the centre

5 of town because there were no defence lines in the centre of town.

6 Q. And this shelling or bombing of the centre of town, can you tell

7 us the period when -- or periods when this shelling continued?

8 A. You could never know for sure when the shelling would begin or

9 where they would strike.

10 Q. But the question that I asked you is: Over what period did this

11 shelling occur? If we deal with August, September, November, October.

12 A. It began when the first shells fell, and then it continued

13 throughout.

14 Q. Now, you told us that you were living in the centre of Vukovar at

15 that time. You had your home there. Did you remain in that home through

16 that period?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Well, can you tell the Court then where you went?

19 A. After the shelling started and we felt we were no longer safe in

20 our apartment, the window-panes were broken, nothing could be repaired,

21 and the shelter in my building was inadequate. It was small and it was

22 full of water. It's -- it was a cellar. So I was forced to go to

23 another, safer shelter. I went to the shelter across from the hospital at

24 an apartment building where there were three floors of apartments. The

25 ground floor was where there was a Vupik supermarket and then underneath

Page 3996

1 that there was a long -- or a large shelter that was the size of the

2 actual building.

3 Q. You've told us in that account that: "We no longer felt safe."

4 Why did you no longer feel safe in your home?

5 A. Because the area began to be shelled frequently.

6 Q. And can you tell us when it was you actually left your home?

7 A. Four or five days after the first shells that I described hit.

8 Q. I'd like you to look, please, at an exhibit. I think it is

9 Exhibit 156. It's the bundle of maps, and it's our map 6 which I believe

10 has changed recently because of the pixel problem. The number is

11 04626622. I wonder if that can be produced, please.

12 Now, can we blow that up slightly so that we don't need a

13 magnifying glass, something that takes in the centre of town. Yes. Thank

14 you very much. That looks helpful.

15 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, could we perhaps go into again private

16 session in relation to this matter --

17 JUDGE PARKER: Private --

18 MR. MOORE: -- because I'm going to ask the witness to mark where

19 he lives.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3997











11 Pages 3997-4000 redacted. Private session.















Page 4001

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

11 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

12 Q. I want to deal with Dr. Bosanac and Mr. Bili Vidic. Did you see

13 them when you were in the shelter?

14 A. When the negotiations started between the JNA and representatives

15 of Vukovar in which Dr. Vesna Bosanac took part, as well as Marin Vidic,

16 Bili, a few days before when they went for the first time the MUP building

17 was set on fire with a shell, and all the staff and the police officers

18 moved to our shelter because the shelter was big. The commander of the

19 police at the time, Mr. Pole Stjepan, was with them as well. I saw

20 Dr. Bosanac and Marin on two occasions when they came to speak with

21 Mr. Pole about the course the negotiations were taking and what was being

22 discussed.

23 Q. Did you personally have any dealings with the negotiations?

24 A. No. No, I did not.

25 Q. Can I just deal with what I will call living conditions not in the

Page 4002

1 cellar but actually outside in Vukovar itself. Did you ever go into the

2 fresh air, into Vukovar, through this period up to November?

3 A. We would all go out once the bombing of the town of Vukovar would

4 stop. Some people would go out more frequently and some people would not

5 go out that much.

6 Q. And what was the condition of the centre of Vukovar like at that

7 time with regard to buildings?

8 A. I wasn't near the centre at the time, but around the building

9 where I was, that area, everything there was demolished. The trees were

10 bereft of leaves. Everything was knocked down. Probably the part of town

11 where I used to live before was even more damaged than where I was then.

12 Q. Prior to the conflict - and I'll use that word for August - were

13 there what I will call public wells in the Vukovar city area?

14 A. There were many public wells in Vukovar.

15 Q. And as far as you're aware, were those public wells, the location

16 of the public wells, known to the population of Vukovar? I'm not saying

17 all of them, but some of them.

18 A. Most of the wells were privately owned in private yards, so many

19 people who lived around that particular place or places would know about

20 the wells.

21 Q. And again, from your own personal knowledge, did people go to the

22 wells to obtain water through this period from September to November?

23 A. There was no other drinking water available.

24 Q. And how safe was it going to collect water from the wells?

25 A. People went to get water because they had to. They were thirsty.

Page 4003

1 They risked their lives to bring back water for other people and for

2 themselves, so it was not safe at all to go and get the water.

3 Q. I think it's right to say you eventually left the shelter and went

4 to the hospital. Is that right?

5 A. I think that it was the 15th of November when we heard that the

6 town defence would no longer be able to hold the defence lines. I went

7 across the road with my wife to the hospital.

8 Q. Now, I -- before we move to the hospital, I just want to deal with

9 one small area about your cellar and the people in it. Did you at any

10 time assist any of those people in the cellar to go back to their premises

11 to obtain items?

12 A. I don't remember that.

13 Q. All right. I will move on then, if I may. Do you know the type

14 of weapons that were being used or shells that were being used against

15 Vukovar area, as far as you could see?

16 A. From what I was able to see, mostly it was mortar shells. They

17 were the most frequent projectiles and they came from all sides. There

18 were also tank projectiles, gun ammunition. All kinds of weapons were

19 used.

20 Q. Did you ever find shells or items that came from shells around

21 where you were?

22 A. You could still find some embedded in the asphalt near the

23 buildings where I lived or there also all over Vukovar.

24 Q. And are you able to say if these were weapons that were just

25 specifically designed or on a target or to just injure people generally?

Page 4004

1 A. There was no targeting; it was just random fire and the

2 projectiles fell wherever they fell.

3 Q. Let's move on to the hospital, if we may. You say you think that

4 you went there about the 15th of November. If we try and assess numbers

5 between the 15th and the 19th of November, how many people would you

6 assess were in the hospital hinterland or hospital area?

7 A. When I arrived on the 15th, there weren't too many people. There

8 were many wounded persons and the hospital staff was there. The basement

9 was full. During those five days until the 19th, the hospital filled up

10 and it was practically full. According to my estimate, there were about

11 2.500 people.

12 Q. Can you remember the JNA arriving at the hospital?

13 A. Yes. Yes, I can.

14 Q. And when do you think that was?

15 A. That was on the 19th, in the afternoon.

16 Q. And can you tell the Court about the arrival of the military

17 forces, please.

18 Q. We heard that the JNA and the rest of the forces entered Vukovar,

19 that the defenders were giving themselves up, and sometime in the

20 afternoon JNA soldiers came in front of the hospital and they entered the

21 hospital. I think there was several tanks outside in front and APCs while

22 the soldiers entered the hospital on foot?

23 Q. Are you able to say whether these were regular JNA soldiers, TO

24 soldiers, or a specific category that we use here called Chetnik? Can you

25 remember?

Page 4005

1 A. The first people or soldiers whom I saw who came to the entrance

2 hall of the hospital and were on the stairs were just regular soldiers, I

3 think, regular soldiers of the JNA.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Could you pause there please.

5 Yes, Mr. Borovic.

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 I have an objection to this quite suggestive question, making a

8 difference between regular soldiers and soldiers allegedly called

9 Chetniks. There were different formations in Vukovar at the time: JNA,

10 Territorial Defence, special units, as well as Chetniks. So in future I

11 would like my colleague, in future, when he puts such questions, not to be

12 suggestive, not to put leading questions. That is the gist of my

13 objection.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic. It's a good point that

15 there shouldn't be leading about specific units, but I think it is

16 necessary to bring the witness to discuss the types of units, to indicate

17 that a choice needs to be made, if possible, between regular JNA troops,

18 other types of troops, and what they were. So I'm sure Mr. Moore will be

19 able to adapt to that.

20 MR. MOORE: I will. Thank you very much.

21 Q. Are you able to tell us the soldiers, what -- what category or

22 type of soldiers they were who came to the hospital?

23 A. The first soldiers that I saw, as I said, well, one of them was a

24 military officer wearing a green camouflage uniform. And there were a few

25 soldiers with him. I don't know how many there were, and these soldiers

Page 4006

1 were dressed in regular military uniforms.

2 Q. Do you know who that military soldier -- that military officer

3 was?

4 A. Well, I knew after he introduced himself.

5 Q. Well, can you tell us his name, please?

6 A. He introduced himself as Major Sljivancanin.

7 Q. And can you give a flavour, please. You say that he came. "He

8 was wearing a green camouflage uniform." That you said "there were a few

9 soldiers with him."

10 Again, can you assist the Court whether they were regular,

11 irregular, what classification, what category?

12 A. In my opinion, these were regular soldiers of the Yugoslav

13 People's Army.

14 Q. And did Major Sljivancanin speak to you? And when I say "you," I

15 mean collectively, all of you.

16 A. He introduced himself as Major Sljivancanin and said: Now you

17 will be transported to the Velepromet warehouse where you will be

18 separated according to what was agreed.

19 Q. Did he indicate what the basis of the separation was going to be

20 at Velepromet?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you see Major Sljivancanin having any discussion or argument

23 with any other person who was present at the hospital that -- that day?

24 A. When the military officer said this, there was some commotion.

25 People started shoving and pushing. They couldn't bring themselves to

Page 4007

1 believe that this would happen, because according to what had been agreed,

2 buses were supposed to be on their way and people would be free to choose

3 where they would go next. However, the agreement was not reached

4 eventually, and Mr. Sljivancanin said people would be taken to Velepromet.

5 After that, he turned around, went down the steps outside the hospital and

6 spoke to two people wearing white uniforms. I did not hear their

7 conversation, but I heard his voice telling one of those people to go back

8 to their own country and issue orders if they like because he's in charge

9 here.

10 Q. The person that he told to go back to his own country because he,

11 Sljivancanin, was in charge, had you seen that person before or not?

12 A. No, never.

13 Q. And how would you describe the tone of the way Sljivancanin dealt

14 with that person?

15 A. Quite strict.

16 Q. And a man in a -- that he was talking to, how was he reacting?

17 A. I didn't notice any reaction on his part.

18 Q. You've told us that Sljivancanin was with a group of -- you

19 considered regular soldiers. At that time, how many military personnel

20 from what I will call the JNA were around the hospital?

21 A. I wasn't able to see how many JNA soldiers were around the

22 hospital. I saw those people who were with Major Sljivancanin. However,

23 when I left the hospital, outside in the courtyard there were other JNA

24 soldiers as well as some paramilitaries who were within the hospital

25 compound.

Page 4008

1 Q. I think it's right to say that you eventually did leave the

2 hospital and go to Velepromet. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Let us deal, please, with your transportation from the hospital to

5 Velepromet. Have you any idea whether it was morning, afternoon, or

6 evening when you were transported to the Velepromet area?

7 A. Afternoon.

8 Q. And what was the method of transportation? What vehicles were you

9 taken in?

10 A. I was taken there in a military truck.

11 Q. I want to deal with one small piece of evidence that you gave

12 about two minutes ago. You said that you saw other military personnel --

13 I'll just clarify for precision. One moment, please.

14 You said that you saw paramilitaries at the hospital. Did you

15 recognise any of those paramilitaries, please?

16 A. There were many people there wearing all kinds of uniforms. I

17 noticed several people whom I knew personally, people from Vukovar. I can

18 perhaps give you about five or six names that I remember.

19 Q. Well, would you be kind enough to give us those names that you

20 believe you recognised, the paramilitaries.

21 A. Darko Fot; Mico Dzankovic; the Susljik brothers, Cigo and his

22 brother Susljik; Veljko Brko [phoen], I don't know his surname. I know he

23 was a handy-man from Vukovar. Boro Kovacevic and a number of others I

24 don't know.

25 Q. How many people were actually transported with you from the

Page 4009

1 hospital to Velepromet?

2 A. A truckful. I'm not sure how many people that is.

3 Q. And how many trucks went to Velepromet? Were you able to see

4 eventually?

5 A. When I came we were unloaded across the way from the warehouse in

6 Velepromet. There was a Vupik garage there and that was where they left

7 us. The trucks probably drove back to the hospital in order to fetch more

8 people and bring them back to the Vupik warehouse across the way from

9 Velepromet.

10 Q. But do you know how many trucks there were? Sorry, I was

11 momentarily distracted.

12 A. I don't know the exact number. There were quite many.

13 Q. Well, let's -- let's see if we use ten as a guide. Was it more

14 than ten or less than ten, as far as you're aware?

15 A. I think more than ten.

16 Q. And do you know who was driving your truck?

17 A. A soldier.

18 Q. And were you able to see who was driving or who were driving the

19 other trucks?

20 A. Soldiers, too.

21 Q. And when you use the term "soldier," to which military section do

22 they belong?

23 A. I think this was the regular JNA.

24 Q. Now, if we just deal with your truck itself, was it just men,

25 women, children? Can you tell the Court the make-up of the people on the

Page 4010

1 truck?

2 A. Yes. On my truck there were only men.

3 Q. Then obviously the time came when you got off at Vupik. Is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what about the other trucks? Did the people get off those

7 trucks as well?

8 A. At Vupik, yes.

9 Q. And if we just deal with the light. Forget about time for a

10 moment, let's just try dealing with lighting. Was there natural light at

11 that time or not; can you remember?

12 A. Natural light.

13 Q. Yes. Was there?

14 A. I didn't hear the question. I'm sorry.

15 Q. I'm asking if you can just tell us whether there was natural light

16 at that time when you arrived at Vupik. It helps us try and assesses

17 time, you see.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was still natural light.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. The only reason I rose

22 was because the witness has already answered this question, and I believe

23 my learned friend is asking the question again, expecting the witness to

24 perhaps change his answer. The witness has now confirmed that there was

25 still some daylight, natural light. I think the only reason these

Page 4011

1 questions are being asked is because there is the off-chance perhaps that

2 the witness might change his answer.

3 MR. MOORE: That was not the aim --

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

5 MR. MOORE: Sorry, I beg your pardon.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, I see that the witness expressly

7 said: "I didn't not hear the question," and that is what prompted

8 Mr. Moore to again raise the question and the question whether there was

9 light or not. So I think that your objection is out of order.

10 Carry on, please --

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry. Page 23,

12 line 8 --

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, that's enough.

14 Mr. Moore, carry on.


16 Q. Can we deal, please, with the people who got down from the truck.

17 You've told us that -- I believe you told us that there were only men in

18 your truck. Did you see the make-up of the people from the other trucks,

19 whether there were men, women, or children? Can you give us a picture,

20 please.

21 A. Yes, there were women and children.

22 Q. And what happened when everybody got off the trucks at Vupik?

23 A. I don't know exactly if everybody got off the trucks at Vupik

24 while I was there, but the military officials who were there started

25 separating people on a massive scale.

Page 4012

1 Q. And what way did they separate the people?

2 A. As I said, there were people wearing all kinds of uniforms and

3 insignia. They came to us, and everybody did as they saw fit. They would

4 take as many people as they wanted. Nobody stood in their way.

5 Q. The question that I'm asking -- you said that they were separated.

6 Were they separated on sexual lines, ethnic lines, age lines, colour

7 lines? Can you tell us?

8 A. Before this time it was said that Croats should go to one side,

9 Serbs to the other side, and everybody else to a different side.

10 Q. And who said this, please?

11 A. I didn't hear exactly who.

12 Q. Are you able to remember, even if it wasn't who, who was in

13 control of the separation process?

14 A. There was no control exercised, or at least none that I saw.

15 Q. When you alighted at Vupik and you were separated, was there

16 anybody waiting for you?

17 A. Why would there have been? But there was a man who stepped

18 forward from this group, a native of Vukovar, by the name of Darko Fot.

19 Q. And what way was Darko Fot dressed, please; can you remember?

20 A. It's difficult for me to remember everything, and I can hardly

21 remember what he was wearing.

22 Q. Well, if you can tell us, then, please, slowly what happened when

23 you got down from the -- from the lorry. Can you tell the Court, please?

24 A. When we got off the lorry, one of my friends and I were called by

25 Darko Fot. He sent us to one side where some of the people were who had

Page 4013

1 already been separated. There were other people being taken away. After

2 a while we were taken across the road to the Velepromet warehouse.

3 Q. Who took you across to the Velepromet warehouse?

4 A. Darko Fot.

5 Q. And did he have anybody with him when you were taken across?

6 A. There were other soldiers there. I didn't know them.

7 Q. And how many soldiers were with Darko Fot when you were taken

8 across?

9 A. I don't know. Quite many. They were all over the place. It's

10 difficult to give a figure.

11 Q. Well, try and see if you can assess. More than 20? Less than 20?

12 A. More than 20.

13 Q. And were those people armed or not?

14 A. All of them were, no exception.

15 Q. And what sort of arms did these people have?

16 A. To the extent that I could notice, they all had long fire-arms.

17 Q. Did you recognise or can you remember the names of people who were

18 armed and waiting for you before going over to the Velepromet area?

19 A. In the warehouse, more specifically in the Vupik garage and in the

20 Velepromet warehouse, there were quite a number of people from Vukovar,

21 people I knew from Vukovar or from the surrounding area.

22 Q. Were any of those people paramilitary?

23 A. All those people belonged to a variety of paramilitary groups

24 wearing all sorts of different uniforms and sporting all sorts of

25 different insignia. I can't be more specific.

Page 4014

1 Q. And can you remember now the names of any of those people?

2 A. I can, in fact, remember quite a few.

3 Q. Well, would you be kind enough, please, to try and remember some

4 of the names.

5 A. Yes. Kosic, his wife Inka; her brother, we called him Kesega,

6 their surname is Stankovic; Pero Krtinic; Dr. Maric; Cevo Zoric, his wife

7 used to work with my wife. I remember a number of people who were there

8 as well as those who were at the hospital.

9 Q. You made a statement on the 15th of May, 1992, six months after

10 this incident at Vukovar. You've already referred to it. Now, did you

11 check the statement to see that it was accurate?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Well, let's go through, then, the details of how the statement was

14 compiled. Can you tell us how you compiled the names or how you compiled

15 the story itself?

16 A. You're talking about the 1992 statement?

17 Q. I am.

18 A. When I came back from the hospital and from the Sremska Mitrovica

19 camp, a police officer from the Vukovar MUP came who was staying in Zagreb

20 at the time. This was in a neighbourhood called Spansko. We were staying

21 in some makeshift huts there. He came to see me and to ask me about

22 everything that had happened in Vukovar. We sat down. I told him all

23 these names that I remembered of different people, and he took the names

24 down.

25 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I would seek leave from the Court for

Page 4015

1 this witness to look at that document of the 15th of May, 1992, as firstly

2 a memory refreshing document to see whether, in actual fact, any of these

3 names are actually names that he can now remember, having been refreshed

4 from the document.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.

6 MR. MOORE: Would the witness please be shown the document. The

7 ERN number is 03577927, concluding at 932. The B/C/S number is 02170375.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, we do have this

10 document, but there's one thing that I'd like to check with my learned

11 friend. The original version of this document that is about to be shown

12 to the witness bears the following date: The 20th of May, 1992. I see

13 that the statement itself was taken on the 15th of May, 1992.

14 JUDGE PARKER: We should be in private session for the moment if

15 this statement is to be displayed.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4016











11 Pages 4016-4020 redacted. Private session.















Page 4021

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE PARKER: We've reached the point where we must adjourn to

Page 4022

1 allow the tapes to be rewound. As there have been redactions, there will

2 need to be a half-hour break. We will continue after that. It would

3 appear as long as the front page of this document doesn't go back on the

4 screen that we can be in public session after the break, Mr. Moore.

5 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.

9 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much, indeed.

10 Q. Witness, may we just move on, please, to this statement of May

11 1992. We have got to the list and the name of Darko Fot. Now, do you see

12 that on your list? Can you just read to yourself what it says about him

13 and can you confirm whether that's accurate or not from your memory now?

14 MR. MOORE: The witness spoke; I certainly didn't hear anything.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear anything.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.


18 Q. Thank you very much. With regard to the next name, Borislav

19 Zuvanovic. Again, using the same procedure, the details there. Are they

20 accurate in relation to the uniform and the long fire-arm?

21 A. Yes, they are correct.

22 Q. The next witness -- or the next name Nenad Zigic. Is that

23 correct? Do you remember seeing him there at the Vupik Velepromet

24 collection centre?

25 A. Yes, I do remember seeing him.

Page 4023

1 Q. Now, you say in your statement that he was dressed in a military

2 uniform and it had a rank; the rank was major. Can you remember that or

3 not?

4 A. Yes, I remember that.

5 Q. Can you tell the Court what sort of uniform he had and why it was

6 you took the view he was the rank of major?

7 A. He had a dark brown uniform with the rank's insignia of a major on

8 his shoulder.

9 Q. Can we move to the next name, Petar Velebit. Do you remember

10 seeing him there at Vupik and then in Velepromet?

11 A. Who -- he used to work with me at the former milicija, the police

12 force, and then he went to Velepromet.

13 Q. The question is: Do you remember seeing him when you got out of

14 your vehicle at Vupik and then subsequently went to Velepromet?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. I saw him.

18 Q. Marko Paic?

19 A. Also.

20 Q. Again, the suggestion is in your statement he was wearing military

21 uniform and a long fire-arm. Is that right or not?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Miso Rokvic, do you remember seeing him there?

24 A. Yes, he played the accordion in Vukovar. I also saw him there.

25 Q. Again with a fire-arm and in uniform. Is that right?

Page 4024

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. We have only four more other -- four more names to go through. Do

3 you know the next name? It looks like Stevan Curnic. Is that right

4 or not, because there's question marks at it.

5 A. Yes, I know.

6 Q. And what is the proper name then, please.

7 A. His name is Stevan Curnic.

8 Q. And, again, the commentary in military uniform and a long

9 fire-arm. Is that right?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. Stanko Vujanovic.

12 A. He was a taxi driver in Vukovar.

13 Q. Thank you. But dealing with Vupik and the Velepromet area when

14 you got out and were segregated, is this explanation, does it correspond

15 with your memory or not?

16 A. Yes, it does.

17 Q. Thank you. Stanislav Avramovic, also known as --

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. My learned

21 friend from the Prosecution asked, not for the first time, whether it is

22 correct what it states here in this text. For example, for Stanko

23 Vujanovic it said that he took part in guarding, denouncing, and

24 mistreating detainees. So what is correct, only what relates to the

25 uniform and the weapon or the whole text? I think that the witness denied

Page 4025

1 saying all of these things to the person who took the statement. So I

2 think this is something that needs to be clarified before we proceed

3 further.

4 Thank you.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, the point made I think is very

6 pertinent.

7 MR. MOORE: Might I submit that a witness is entitled to look at a

8 document where the indicia for reliability suggests that he is the source

9 of the documentation. If a witness --

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, the point is: What is it is he saying

11 to be correct? There have been clear indications that not everything

12 recorded are his words. The only express things that he's indicated is

13 that he saw the person in uniform carrying a fire-arm. There is much more

14 recorded, which is quite different from any of his evidence to date. If

15 you want any specific notice to be taken of that, it will need to be

16 explored properly.

17 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

19 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour forgive me one moment.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, the way I propose to do it, and I hope it

23 meets the agreement of the Defence, is for the witness to read the

24 document, ask whether in actual fact he remembers the person as being

25 there from his present recollection, and whether the explanation given in

Page 4026

1 the document accords with his present recollection. And that is all I

2 would wish to establish at this time. It may well be that I would want to

3 deal with these individuals later on in his evidence, and I hope that that

4 would be an appropriate way of dealing with it.

5 JUDGE PARKER: For my part I want it to be --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE PARKER: -- clear that he agrees with everything that is

8 written.

9 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Or only part of it.

11 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

12 JUDGE PARKER: That seems to be the issue.

13 MR. MOORE: Certainly, I will do that.

14 Does my learned friend wish me to go back to the name of Zigic as

15 a starting point, which is only two names back, and that is really -- is

16 fairly close to where we resumed. I'm quite happy to resume at a

17 particular name if there's any concern about an individual.

18 I see my learned friend nodding yes, and I will do it that way

19 with the Court's leave.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


22 Q. Witness, I want you to go back, please, to the name of Nenad

23 Zigic. There is written beside his name an explanation or an account of

24 what he was supposed to have done. Can you read that out, please, and

25 tell us whether you agree if that is accurate or not. Now, can you read

Page 4027

1 it out, please, and tell the Court whether it is accurate or not.

2 A. "I saw Nenad Zigic in a uniform with the ranks of major. The rest

3 I did not see."

4 Q. Can we look at Petar Velebit. Now, you have a commentary. Can we

5 do the same again, please.

6 A. Once again, I say that I saw him in uniform and armed.

7 Q. There is another part that relates to another aspect about

8 defenders and civilians. Is that accurate or not?

9 A. I really don't know that. I couldn't say.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Let us move then to Marko Paic. Again,

11 there is an explanation. Firstly, did you see Marko Paic at Vupik and

12 Velepromet?

13 A. Yes, I did. He was also in uniform and armed, but as for the rest

14 I didn't see that.

15 Q. Miso Rokvic, did you see him at Vupik Velepromet?

16 A. In a uniform and with weapons, yes, that is correct.

17 Q. Can we go back to Stevan Curnic. You've told us you saw him.

18 What about the other entry, please?

19 A. The same, in a uniform with weapons.

20 Q. Stanko Vujanovic you've told us you saw. Please read what is said

21 there for him and confirm whether that is accurate or not.

22 A. I repeat, once again, that I saw him in a uniform with a weapon.

23 Q. Can you remember anything else about Vujanovic?

24 A. Not right now, no.

25 Q. Stanislav Avramovic, did you see him at Vupik Velepromet?

Page 4028

1 A. Yes. He also was wearing a uniform and had a weapon.

2 Q. And the final one, are you able to assist with that name or not?

3 A. He was a driver. He worked at the same company that I did. He

4 also wore a uniform and had a weapon.

5 Q. Thank you. Can you just listen then to the following question.

6 You have given those names to the Court as being people who met you at

7 Vupik. What were they doing after that; can you tell us?

8 A. I don't know what they did after that. I wasn't able to be at

9 every place where they happened to be.

10 Q. Can we then deal, please, at -- when you've arrived at Vupik and

11 you've told us about the separation. You've already explained that. What

12 then happened to your group?

13 A. During the transfer from Vupik to Velepromet, we were taken to a

14 wall which is on the left side next to the Velepromet entrance. More

15 people were being brought in from all directions. After a certain amount

16 of time, not too long afterwards, I was summoned by Mico Dzankovic, a

17 former waiter in Vukovar from a group, and he told me to stand a little

18 bit to the side. A young man stood next to me - I knew him from Ilok -

19 who was a police officer in Vukovar at the time. His name was Miroslav

20 Blaskovic. Miro Dzankovic took him out from that group also and told him

21 to stand next to me next to that wall. After a certain amount of time he

22 cursed him, cursed his mother, and then he hit him on the face with the

23 barrel of his rifle. Blood started to show on his face, and then they

24 took him off somewhere, and I never saw him again.

25 Q. I want you, please, to look at a document. The number

Page 4029

1 is 04672780, and I believe -- well, the Defence will have copies of that.

2 Could that be put on the screen, please.

3 Now, I think it's right to say that when you came to The Hague on

4 this occasion that you brought this document with you. Isn't that right?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. And the document itself represents the Vupik-Velepromet area. Is

7 that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 MR. MOORE: I wonder if it's possible for the document to be

10 enlarged? It's rather difficult on my screen to see it. I think it can't

11 be minimised to an appropriate size.

12 Q. Let us deal with the document itself. At the top of the page we

13 have got an arrow pointing to Negoslavci. Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And we have got at the bottom an arrow pointing to Vukovar. Is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. And in between we have got a road clearly running in a north-south

19 direction between Negoslavci and Vukovar. Is that right?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Now, can I just deal with a general understanding and then we'll

22 move on to specifics. But did you actually compile the buildings

23 themselves? So I'm not talking about the arrow marks; I'm talking about

24 the buildings.

25 A. No.

Page 4030

1 Q. Well, can you just tell the Court how this document was created

2 initially? Just in very simple terms, please.

3 A. It was done for me by a friend of mine.

4 Q. And how long ago was it done for you, approximately?

5 A. About six months ago.

6 Q. Now, we have got arrows clearly drawn coming from the left-hand

7 side and then going into what seems to be the Velepromet area. Is that

8 right or not?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Well, let us just look to the left-hand side of the page, what I

11 will call 9.00. Have you got that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, what is that area on the left-hand side of the page?

14 A. This is the Vupik warehouse.

15 Q. So when you talk about the Vupik warehouse, is that the warehouse

16 area where you were offloaded from the lorries?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Well, can you explain to us then exactly what the arrows

19 represent.

20 A. This is the route along which I was taken to Velepromet.

21 Q. You're talking about the arrows. Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, can you with your magic pencil and the electronic screen - I

24 don't know if it's possible or not - actually mark out the route that you

25 actually took, not the route of others, the route that you took.

Page 4031

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. Can I just ask you to stop there for a moment, please. Now, your

3 marking shows you're coming in from the Vupik area, across the road, into

4 Velepromet, and then you seem to go to a location and then leave that

5 location. Now, what happened? Can you explain to the Court exactly what

6 this diagram represents?

7 A. The whole thing, you mean?

8 Q. Well, if you just tell us what it is you have drawn and explain to

9 us slowly what happened and where. So take your time and tell us as

10 thoroughly as you wish.

11 A. This is the Vupik warehouse. I was offloaded here and so were

12 they. This is where the group was formed and we were taken behind this

13 wall for the first time, roughly speaking. The next time I was taken away

14 it was to this spot that I've just marked. The third time around I was

15 taken to this spot.

16 Q. Well, thank you for that, but we just need to mark out the spots

17 that you're referring to. So let's use the magic pen again. Can you tell

18 us, using the pen, where it is that you go and where you stop. And tell

19 us then what happens there and then move on again. Would you do that?

20 And mark on the diagram, please, where you stop?

21 A. The first time around we stopped right here near the casino on our

22 way from Vupik to Velepromet. From that group of people, Mico Dzankovic

23 took me to one side and two other people, too.

24 Q. So every time that you refer to stopping, mark it with a -- let us

25 say, an X or an A. It matters not. So you stop there. Who takes you

Page 4032

1 there, please?

2 A. Mico Dzankovic called me to one side and led me there with a

3 number of other people. As I have already said, he --

4 Q. And who is Mico Dzankovic --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the last part of the

6 witness's answer.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, can you please repeat the

8 question.


10 Q. And who is Mico Dzankovic?

11 A. Mico Dzankovic was a waiter before the war in Vukovar. He is from

12 Vukovar.

13 Q. And what was Mico Dzankovic doing that evening with you?

14 A. He just took me to one side and put me in a different group.

15 Q. And when he put you into the different group, how many did he put

16 you -- how many were in that group?

17 A. About seven or eight persons, ten at most.

18 Q. And so where was the group? Where did it -- where was it placed?

19 A. The group was right here.

20 Q. And what was happening at that time?

21 A. You mean happening to me?

22 Q. Well, you can tell us what was happening to you and perhaps tell

23 us what was happening to others. You see, I can't tell you what to say;

24 you've got to tell the Court.

25 A. Fine. People were still being separated left and right on a

Page 4033

1 massive scale. This was done in an arbitrary fashion. Mico Dzankovic was

2 the one who separated me and a couple of other people from the rest, left

3 us there with about ten other people. They were still bringing other

4 people to that group. After a while, Boro Zuvanovic came for the third

5 time, called my name out, and told me to leave the group, together with

6 another man whose name I believe was Jurica. When he started leading us

7 toward the buildings over there I asked him: Boro, where are you taking

8 us?

9 And he said: (redacted), just keep your mouth shut. There's going to

10 be quite a mess here. I'm taking you somewhere safe. And then we headed

11 towards this spot I've marked here.

12 Q. When you say you headed towards this spot here, can you put a C, a

13 letter C at this spot, please.

14 A. C.

15 Q. And can we mark the other spots A and B, obviously running in

16 sequence.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. So with regard to A, what happened at A?

19 A. We were brought here from Vupik near the wall to Velepromet.

20 Q. And then at B?

21 A. The spot marked as B. When Mico Dzankovic took me to one side, I

22 described what happened between Mico Dzankovic and the police officer Boro

23 Draskovic [phoen].

24 Q. What was the atmosphere like in Velepromet at that time when you

25 came in?

Page 4034

1 A. It's very difficult to describe it verbally. There was panic and

2 fear in the air. Sounds of shooting could be heard from the moment I

3 arrived throughout. This shooting -- what should I call it? There was

4 shooting all over the place. There was celebratory fire, people firing

5 into the air, and other people firing. I didn't know why they were

6 firing. You could hear screams, women screaming for the most part, Bring

7 back my this or my that, because they were taking people away and women

8 were crying. It was a scene of utter chaos.

9 Q. I want to deal with the movement from B to C on your diagram. Do

10 you see that?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Now, can you tell us then what occurred when you were moving

13 from B to C?

14 A. When leaving B -- or rather, when Boro Zuvanovic called me, it was

15 next to this building, I'm not sure what it is now, a small building, I

16 saw a man who passed in front of us, Mirko, also known as Capalo. He was

17 walking ahead of us holding a crooked knife in his hand, a knife with a

18 crooked tip, with blood dripping from it. In his other hand he was

19 carrying a human head. I'm 90 per cent certain that what I saw was a

20 human head. He passed in front of us and never looked back.

21 Q. Can you mark a letter D if it's possible where it was you saw this

22 man called Capalo with the knife and the head. If you can't do it, just

23 tell us whether it was in an open area or an enclosed area.

24 A. It was in an open area.

25 Q. When you saw this man Capalo with the knife and what you felt sure

Page 4035

1 was a head in his other hand, what did you feel?

2 A. I was horrified. I didn't have time to think about anything at

3 all.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, I'm just watching the time moving by on

5 this sketch that has been marked --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

7 JUDGE PARKER: If we don't tender it soon, we may lose the

8 marking.

9 MR. MOORE: I was aware of that. I was hoping to get to the

10 destination. Can I just ask this question of --

11 JUDGE PARKER: Well, if you think this -- you're getting somewhere

12 shortly, please go ahead.

13 MR. MOORE: I will. Thank you very much for that.

14 Q. And D, what was D on your map?

15 A. D.

16 Q. C, I was one ahead. I'm sorry about that. C.

17 A. C marks the spot where that small building was in front of which I

18 was brought. Me and that other person called Jurica.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 MR. MOORE: Perhaps if we take a photograph of that now and tender

21 that into evidence.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 187, Your Honours.


25 Q. Prior to actually going to that small room, did you see within the

Page 4036

1 Velepromet area where you were walking through, did you see anyone in

2 military uniform or not?

3 A. They were all over the place. There were people all over the

4 place, but less people than I saw around the admin building.

5 Q. Let us deal then, please, with the small room that you went to.

6 Can you describe it for us.

7 A. It's a very small room with a slanting roof, if I remember

8 correctly.

9 Q. And that -- did you go into the room?

10 A. The two of us were brought just outside that small room. A man

11 was standing there wearing camouflage uniform, very tall, with long hair

12 and a beard. Just in front of him there was a table. This man who was

13 leading us, Boro, said to him Topola: These two are mine, don't let

14 anyone get near them or touch them. And he answered: No problem there,

15 Boro.

16 Boro left, went somewhere, and then Topola ordered me to place a

17 bag that I was holding on a heap of other bags that were lying there. I

18 was wearing a jeans jacket, somewhat long, with fur lining. He told me to

19 take it off and place that, too, on top of that heap. We did as we were

20 told.

21 After that he told me to hand over my documents. I extracted all

22 the documents from my wallet and in fact handed over the entire wallet.

23 There was some money; he took the money and placed the money on the table

24 in front of him and laid the documents down under the table. I saw that

25 there were other documents under the table, too, just like mine.

Page 4037

1 I turned around. I was wearing a small and flimsy black jacket, and he

2 said: Take that off, too, and put it on top of that heap. I did that,

3 and I was left in a -- wearing a T-shirt, and he ordered the other man who

4 was with me to do the same thing. Since it was very cold and we were

5 freezing, I asked if I could have my leather jacket back as well as my

6 documents. And he replied: You won't be needing these anymore. After

7 some time he opened the door and told us to get in. I was the first to

8 get into the building, and he kicked Jurica on his way in. We were now

9 inside the building, and the door slammed shut behind us.

10 Q. Let us deal, if we can, please, with what you found inside the

11 building after you had been placed inside it. Were there any other people

12 in there?

13 A. Two or three candles were burning. I can't remember exactly. The

14 small building was packed with people who were there already when I

15 arrived.

16 Q. I know it's very difficult to estimate numbers, but can you give

17 the Court an idea of numbers? More or less than 50?

18 A. I think just over 50.

19 Q. And what was the atmosphere like in that particular building?

20 A. When I came in there was a deadly silence.

21 Q. And do you know what that room or building was subsequently

22 titled?

23 A. Some called it the death cell. Some called it the carpenter's

24 room, which is what it was, what it was used for, as part of the

25 Velepromet company.

Page 4038

1 Q. When you were in the room you described it as being silent. Did

2 you hear any noises outside that caught your attention?

3 A. All we could hear while we were inside was sounds of firing.

4 Q. And how close was the firing?

5 A. One couldn't really discern or distinguish the exact spot that

6 sounds of firing were coming from.

7 Q. But did there come a time when there was firing right beside the

8 building itself?

9 A. After I came in -- well, after a certain time, it's difficult to

10 say exactly, there was firing just outside the door of that building, and

11 people were yelling things like: He's getting away. He's getting away.

12 Catch him, quickly. After a while the door opened and a young man was

13 thrown or pushed into the building. Both his legs were bleeding. I

14 recognised him. I know this young man well. His name was Dragan Lucic.

15 Q. You have described -- you have described that his legs were

16 bleeding. Did you see what had caused the injuries?

17 A. There was a doctor who wanted to dress his wounds, but he had

18 nothing to dress them with. I think his name was Josip Nadas. He bent

19 down over him, and he says he has gun-shot wounds to both his knees and

20 his ankles.

21 Q. Did you do anything to try and help Dragan Lucic?

22 A. There was nothing I could do at this point in time. Dr. Nadas was

23 trying to help. I gave him my own shirt to use to try to help the young

24 man's life and stop the bleeding; however, we failed.

25 Q. And did you speak to anybody outside the room about this?

Page 4039

1 A. We realised that he was bleeding profusely and that there was

2 nothing we could do. I knocked on the door of that other room, and then

3 this soldier named Topola came in and asked what was going on. And I

4 said: There is a man, he's dying, can we do anything to save him? After

5 a while, two persons came in and took Dragan away from the room.

6 Q. Did Dragan -- was Dragan ever brought back to the room?

7 A. Dragan was brought back, and there were bandages on his legs.

8 However, there was still some bleeding and Dr. Nadas did whatever he could

9 to stop that.

10 Q. Let's continue with the room. Did any other people come into that

11 room?

12 A. After Dragan was brought there, the door opened and a young man

13 emerged in the door. He had long blond hair and a beard. He held a

14 bottle of some alcohol in one hand and an automatic rifle in the other.

15 He stood there in the doorway saying: At about 9.00, or half past 9.00

16 latest, you'll all be taken to be executed. He lingered there for a

17 minute or two and then left.

18 Q. Well, after he left, can you then again slowly tell us what then

19 happened.

20 A. Fear and panic descended upon us. We felt certain that we would

21 die. We kept looking at one another, but nobody said anything. Soon

22 after, the door opened again and a man in uniform emerged. I think he had

23 the rank of major. He had two soldiers on each side accompanying him. At

24 first we thought this was the firing-squad and they were about to shoot

25 us.

Page 4040

1 However, this turned out to be something altogether different, to

2 our great fortune. This man came in and said: People, stand up, all of

3 you. They had been calling us Ustashas all the while, but this man was

4 the first not to use the term. He said: People, stand up. Walk in twos,

5 hold each other's hands, don't look left or right, just go out. There's a

6 bus waiting for you there. Get on the bus without looking left or right.

7 None of us could believe this at first. I was particularly

8 diffident by the way things went, that things had taken a totally

9 different turn now. We grabbed each other's hands. There was a man

10 standing next to me, Mirko Bridovic, he was an inspector in Vukovar, a

11 sanitation inspector. We slowly walked towards the bus, heads down, the

12 bus waiting for us outside. The military officer expressly ordered his

13 people: Turn around, no one is to come even close. If anyone comes

14 close, shoot them. It was at this point in time that it dawned on me that

15 we were now saved. We got on to the bus and so did the officer. He spoke

16 to the driver who was also in uniform. He said: Just drive on, park

17 somewhere along the road to Negoslavci, and pull over right behind that

18 Pinzgauer. He also told two soldiers to guard the doors, one each. He

19 said: No one is to get on this bus but me. And the soldiers complied

20 with this.

21 We set out. We left the Velepromet compound, and - I'm sorry -

22 parked behind this Pinzgauer that was parked there facing Negoslavci.

23 Q. Witness, are you all right or would you need a break?

24 A. Everything's all right. Thank you.

25 Q. And I think it's right to say then that you were taken away, is

Page 4041

1 that right, to safety?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. I want to deal with one or two areas in relation to your knowledge

4 of Vukovar and the people in Vukovar. Do you know the Dosen family?

5 A. I know the Dosen family; most people in Vukovar do. His mother

6 lived in my building in the centre, where I was living, on the first

7 floor, Ms. Marija Dosen. There were three Dosen brothers, Tadija, Martin,

8 and Ivica. They had two sisters. We used to call one Seka and the other

9 one we called Crna.

10 Q. How would you describe the Dosen family before, let us say, the

11 summer of 1991? Were they a politically active family or not?

12 A. They were all employed. The eldest, Tadija, worked at the Borovo

13 company as a labourer. The second one is Martin; he worked in the

14 agricultural combine, and then later he became a professional fisherman.

15 The third brother, Ivica, worked occasionally. He wasn't permanently

16 employed. From what I know, they were not really interested in politics.

17 Q. Can we deal with them, though, whether you knew -- whether you

18 know whether they were defenders of Vukovar or not?

19 A. Yes, they were.

20 Q. Does that relate to all three brothers or not?

21 A. I know about the oldest and the youngest. I'm not sure about the

22 middle one, but I think that he was part of the defence, too.

23 Q. And as far as you're aware, how well-known as defenders were they?

24 A. They didn't behave as people who wanted to be especially known.

25 They just behaved like any other of the defenders.

Page 4042

1 Q. It's right to say that you were shown a list of people - the Court

2 will know it as the annex to the indictment - a list of people who are

3 described as victims at Ovcara. Do you remember seeing that document?

4 I'll just hold it up so you can see.

5 A. Yes, I remember seeing it.

6 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, forgive me for one moment, please.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 MR. MOORE: I'm told that it's saved as 00 Ovcara in e-court.

9 I've got it now showing, but there are certain markings that are not

10 terribly easy to see. Can we blow it up the first page and then we'll

11 move through it.

12 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I've told my learned friends, so that

13 there's no misunderstanding, some of the marks here are actually mine from

14 my indictment, but I wanted for my own understanding to know what this

15 witness thought were people who were seen at the hospital when he was

16 there. So there are marks on it, but I will just deal with the Hs and I

17 will clarify that they are his.

18 Q. Witness, can you just look at this document for a moment. I think

19 it's right to say that you were asked to look at this list of people and

20 mark with the letter H those that you remember seeing at the

21 hospital. Is that right or not? Can you just answer, please.

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. And when we look at this first page, and we'll move on, I think

24 it's right to say if we scan down the page, if that's possible to do it

25 slowly, please, that with the markings of H those are your markings of

Page 4043

1 people you believed to have seen at the hospital when you were there. Is

2 that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, can I just clarify with the witness, there is at the name of

5 Blaskovic, Miroslav, a mark of V/not hospital. That is not your marking.

6 Is that right?

7 A. All I wrote was the letter V.

8 Q. But can we just deal with the Hs for a moment. So the Hs are

9 yours. That's right, I think?

10 A. That's right, yes.

11 Q. Now, let's look at this page, and we've got Blaskovic, Miroslav.

12 There is a V opposite that. Is that your V or not, standing for

13 Velepromet?

14 A. Yes, that is my V.

15 Q. And I am quite happy to go through to the next page, please, if

16 that's possible. Can that be done?

17 Again, you have got Hs running down opposite various names.

18 Again, same format. Is that your H?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what does the H stand for here on this page?

21 A. It means that I saw those people at the hospital.

22 Q. Moving over to the next page, please. Thank you very much.

23 Does the same apply to those Hs?

24 A. Yes, it does.

25 Q. Can we look at the initial M and there is a V, Marijanovic. Do

Page 4044

1 you see that, that V there?

2 Can the registry please move on to the initial M because it does

3 go alphabetically. The next page, please. The next page, please.

4 Now, do you see the -- we've got Hs, two Hs and a V. Is that your

5 V, is that your marking?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you. And the Hs?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can we move on then two more pages with the first name as Magdic

10 at the very top. I see I've got a duplication here. That's a

11 duplication. And with regard to the rest of the indictment, if we go to

12 the initial J -- sorry, the initial T for Tomasic. Have we got that? Can

13 we turn to the next page, please. And again there are four Hs. Did you

14 mark those four Hs as people that you saw at the hospital?

15 A. Could you please scroll the page down. I did write that, yes.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 MR. MOORE: I would seek to make that an exhibit.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 188, Your Honours.


21 Q. Witness, one of the names I did not refer you to was your son.

22 And I don't want to mention his name or draw attention to it in open

23 court. But I think it's right to say that your son's name is specified on

24 that list of victims of Ovcara. Is that right?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 4045

1 MR. MOORE: Now, I was not going to ask this witness how he

2 identified his son. As far as I'm aware, there is no dispute that his son

3 was exhumed at Ovcara. I'm quite prepared to do it if my learned friends

4 wish to contest it, but for my part I'm not aware that there will be any

5 contesting of this particular matter. It is sensitive to this witness,

6 and I don't wish to do it unless absolutely necessary.

7 Could I have some indications, please, if there's any dispute

8 here?

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We absolutely agree with the approach

11 of the Prosecutor, and then we are going to consult during the break and

12 then we will give you our positions. Now it's about close to the break,

13 so we would just like to have a little bit of time so that we can consult

14 on this amongst ourselves and then we will state our position after the

15 break.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

17 Mr. Moore, you can continue on the basis that for the moment at

18 least there is no dispute.

19 [Prosecution counsel confer]

20 MR. MOORE: At the moment I have no further questions. I was

21 going to conclude with that particular topic at the end.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. Thank you very much, Mr. Moore.

23 Mr. Vasic -- Mr. Domazet. The pillar isn't getting any slimmer.

24 I'm sorry --

25 MR. DOMAZET: Yes.

Page 4046

1 JUDGE PARKER: -- it continues to hide you completely from me.

2 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm ready to start with

3 the cross-examination, but I would personally rather have the break now

4 because of the consultations that my colleague Mr. Lukic mentioned also.

5 And I think that then after the break I will require the whole session for

6 my cross-examination.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Very well, Mr. Domazet.

8 There are redactions, so the break will be for half an hour.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Before you continue, Mr. Domazet, has there been

12 any conclusion reached about the matter raised just before the break?

13 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We have agreed

14 with what our learned friend, Mr. Moore, has said and we believe there is

15 no need for cross-examination on this matter.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Domazet. I thank you and all

17 Defence counsel. We can proceed on the basis that the -- that matter is

18 not in dispute. Yes, Mr. Domazet.

19 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Domazet:

21 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I am Vladimir Domazet, and I am the

22 co-counsel of Mr. Mrksic. I will be asking you questions on behalf of

23 Mr. Mrksic's defence. First a few questions on your career.

24 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I would like to move in to private

25 session so that nothing is made public that could reveal your identity.

Page 4047

1 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4048











11 Page 4048 redacted. Private session.















Page 4049

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

14 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I would like to ask you now about the period of 1990 and early

16 1991. As you've described it yourself, it was a period where you as a

17 long-time citizen of Vukovar, you had lived there for 30 years. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. The year 1990, I'm sure you remember it by the events that were

21 going on in the former Yugoslavia at the time and that was the creation of

22 the multi-party system and the first multi-party elections. Do you

23 remember that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How did the results of the first multi-party elections in Croatia

Page 4050

1 reflect on the situation in Vukovar itself?

2 A. For people of Serb ethnicity, I believe that it reflected

3 negatively. And as for the Croat people, I think it was reflected

4 positively.

5 Q. When you say that, sir, that for people of Serb ethnicity you

6 believe that it was a negative reflection, why do you say that? Why did

7 you form that opinion?

8 A. I think that those people spontaneously came out into the streets

9 and they protested the results of those elections.

10 Q. The results of the elections in Croatia were actually the victory

11 of the HDZ. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What about the local elections in Vukovar? How did they proceed

14 in this multi-party system for the first time?

15 A. I think that the HDZ party also won in Vukovar.

16 Q. Do you remember who was elected president of the Municipal

17 Assembly of Vukovar then, following the local elections?

18 A. I think that it was the late Mr. Dokmanovic.

19 Q. Do you remember or do you know which party he was a member of?

20 A. Well, I can guess. I think that he was in the SDP party.

21 Q. Was that a party headed by Mr. Racan, at one time a very prominent

22 member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia and a member of the

23 Presidency?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. And that party, Racan's party, according to what you know, was

Page 4051

1 that a multi-ethnic party, comprising Serbs and Croats?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. At the time, and I'm only speaking about that period, did the

4 Serbs have their own national party in Vukovar?

5 A. I think that in Vukovar they did not.

6 Q. Do you know how long Mr. Dokmanovic, you remember that he was the

7 president of the Municipal Assembly, how long did he stay as president of

8 the Municipal Assembly?

9 A. I think it was until the end -- until the war broke out.

10 Q. Do you know why he stopped performing that function?

11 A. I'm not sure.

12 Q. Do you recall that at some point before the war broke out, there

13 was an administration imposed? Was there some other type of authority

14 imposed other than the regular authority? Was there any kind of

15 commissioner appointed?

16 A. I don't know that. I'm not quite sure about that.

17 Q. From what you said in your answers to the questions by my learned

18 friend from the Prosecution, it was clear that you know Marin Vidic, Bili.

19 Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, I know him. That is correct.

21 Q. Do you know what duties he was performing at that time just before

22 the conflict broke out?

23 A. Yes, I think that he was the one who followed after

24 Mr. Dokmanovic. He took over his duties.

25 Q. You will probably agree with me and many before you have said the

Page 4052

1 same, that Vukovar and its environs were a national -- a multi-ethnic

2 community. There were not only Croats and Serbs but other ethnic groups

3 as well.

4 A. Yes, that is correct. There were members of 22 ethnic groups

5 living there.

6 Q. Would you agree with me that a lot of ethnic Serbs lived in

7 Vukovar itself as well as in surrounding areas where they constituted

8 either a majority or wholly populated those areas?

9 A. Yes, I would agree with you.

10 Q. Is it true that in early 1991, following these elections and after

11 the constitutional changes in the Republic of Croatia, tensions began to

12 emerge in these relations between Serbs and Croats, first of all?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. Are you aware that the constitution that I mention which was

15 adopted in late 1990 changed the previous constitution, whereby Serbs as

16 an ethnic group or a nation no longer constituted an integral part of the

17 Republic of Croatia, but it was formulated in the following way, that

18 Croats were members of the Republic of Croatia and that this was, in a

19 way, something that created the initial concerns by Serbs living in

20 Croatia?

21 A. Yes, I think that is correct.

22 Q. Today you mention the tragic incident in Borovo Selo on the 2nd of

23 May, but what I'm interested in is a little bit before that because when

24 you spoke about that event you talked about the roadblocks and barricades.

25 Could you tell us actually what was beginning to happen before that?

Page 4053

1 A. Before that I said that ethnic Serbs, as you said, those who lived

2 in the villages where they constituted a majority, set up barricades in --

3 at the entrances to their village because -- actually, I don't know what

4 the reason was for this, but it was probably partly done out of fear

5 because of what had happened.

6 Q. Were any such barricades set up in predominantly Croat areas and

7 settlements, such as Borovo Naselje?

8 A. There was a barricade set up between Borovo Naselje and

9 Borovo Selo near the railway track. I know about that one. The only

10 barricade that was set up was near the village of Sotin, which was the

11 only predominantly Croat village in the surroundings of Vukovar.

12 Q. Although at the time you were no longer working, do you perhaps

13 happen to know, based on conversations that you had with your friends,

14 that a number of Serbs no longer reported for work in Vukovar?

15 A. Yes, I am familiar with that.

16 Q. When you spoke about what happened in Borovo Selo on the 2nd of

17 May, 1991, you said that this incident, for you, marked the beginning of

18 clashes. Can you tell me what specifically was going on in Vukovar in May

19 and June?

20 A. I can't be certain. I don't know what preceded the police being

21 dispatched to Borovo Selo, to begin with. At this point in time,

22 Vukovar's police was still a regular institution, and they were free to

23 move about all of Vukovar's different areas, including Borovo Selo. But

24 we all know what happened.

25 Q. Thank you, but I wasn't asking about the details of that

Page 4054

1 particular incident. I assume you don't know that much about it. What I

2 was asking is how this affected whatever happened in Vukovar in May and

3 June.

4 A. This was a signal for people in Vukovar to start organising

5 themselves. They all believed, as I did myself, that this was not the end

6 of it, that this was no isolated incident, but rather a massacre.

7 Q. What specific steps were taken? You mentioned preparations of

8 some kind. What exactly did you have in mind?

9 A. People started organising for the town's defence. People started

10 obtaining weapons and, as I say, they were organising the town's defence.

11 Q. Thank you. When you say "the town's defence," preparing the

12 town's defence, what sort of preparation do you have in mind specifically?

13 A. They started setting up small groups of people in certain areas in

14 Vukovar such as Mitnica, Borovo Naselje, Luzac, and such-like. People

15 started setting up units for the town's defence.

16 Q. The setting up of these defence units and organising people, did

17 this entail obtaining weapons for these people?

18 A. It probably did.

19 Q. Can you please tell me if earlier on, perhaps in the spring of

20 that year, you heard anything about unarmed units being reviewed under the

21 aegis of the HDZ in a number of villages around Vukovar?

22 A. I am not aware of anything like that happening in Vukovar itself.

23 Q. I didn't mean Vukovar itself, but what about villages such as

24 Bogdanovci, Lovac?

25 A. I heard something about that, yes.

Page 4055

1 Q. Were you a member of the HDZ? I suppose not, but please correct

2 me if I'm wrong.

3 A. I was not a member of the HDZ or any party.

4 Q. That was my understanding after that answer that you just

5 provided, but I need to ask all the same because I believe these reviews

6 that I am talking about had been organised by the HDZ, of all parties.

7 So you heard people talk about this but you don't know anything

8 more about that?

9 A. No, I don't.

10 Q. Did you perhaps hear anything about people finding different other

11 ways of purchasing and obtaining weapons in their own time?

12 A. Yes. That was also something that started happening.

13 Q. Do you know when the Crisis Staff was established in Vukovar

14 itself?

15 A. I don't know the exact date.

16 Q. Roughly speaking in relation to the incident at Borovo Selo, how

17 soon after that?

18 A. I think quite soon after that.

19 Q. Did you personally hear from anyone about explosions, fires in

20 catering establishments and private homes during the spring and early

21 summer of 1991?

22 A. There was this one time that I saw something, but other than that

23 I heard about things happening, just like everyone else.

24 Q. Based on any conversations that you had with people about this,

25 was this another factor which contributed to the growing sense of disquiet

Page 4056

1 among the residents of Vukovar?

2 A. I should think so, yes.

3 Q. You mentioned August as the period when armed clashes began. Is

4 that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I suppose you know where the JNA barracks was located in Vukovar?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell me if the JNA were facing any problems entering or

9 leaving the barracks or travelling around the Vukovar area at all,

10 generally speaking?

11 A. Not as far as I know.

12 Q. Did you perhaps hear that columns of vehicles were stopped in

13 certain places because of check-points or barricades set up by the

14 civilian population or something like that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. What about the barracks itself, was it not under siege at one

17 point because its water, electricity supplies, as well as phone lines were

18 cut off?

19 A. I don't think so.

20 Q. Throughout this period of time, I mean until the end of November,

21 were the JNA people leaving the barracks throughout this period of time?

22 A. Not as far as I know.

23 Q. Today in answer to one of the questions asked by my learned

24 friend, you used that map of Vukovar to mark the front line, the

25 confrontation line, or whatever I should call it. You remember that,

Page 4057

1 right?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. If necessary, we can show the map again for you to have a look.

4 But would you agree with me, sir, if I said that at this point in time the

5 JNA barracks found itself behind the front line in a way, isolated, and

6 surrounded by the defending forces, as you say?

7 A. I don't know about that. I don't know when this happened.

8 Q. Would it be of any assistance to you if we tried showing you the

9 map again?

10 A. No, I don't think that's necessary.

11 Q. Fair enough. You say that the line stayed like that for quite

12 some time and that the only major shift occurred when the withdrawal

13 occurred, which you marked in that other drawing that you made?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you give us an idea when this happened exactly and how long it

16 took, some sort of a time-line, please, of this shift between the two

17 lines.

18 A. That was in early September.

19 Q. When you say "early September," what are we talking about? The

20 first line being established or the second line?

21 A. That was after the barracks had been taken and the second line was

22 been established.

23 Q. You say after the barracks had been taken. By whom?

24 A. The line moved from the barracks closer to the town centre once

25 the JNA had entered.

Page 4058

1 Q. Does that mean that before this time there was no communication

2 between the JNA forces inside the barracks and the JNA forces outside the

3 barracks or at the front line?

4 A. Can you ask that question again, please.

5 Q. Does that mean that the JNA barracks was entirely surrounded and

6 besieged by the Croatian forces until the other front line was eventually

7 established?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. You yourself said that the barracks was taken when the second

10 front line was established and that it was at this point in time that the

11 JNA reached the barracks?

12 A. I may have misspoken, but the barracks was never in anybody else's

13 hands but the JNA.

14 Q. I agree with you fully on that one. It definitely wasn't, but

15 there was this one point in time when the barracks found itself behind or

16 within the lines occupied by the Croatian forces.

17 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Can I have please Exhibit 185,

18 Mr. Usher. I would like to show the witness this exhibit. It was just

19 admitted today.

20 Q. Can you see this, sir?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You explained today about the line that you marked with the

23 letter A. That was the front line or the first front line, if I may call

24 it that, up until a certain point in time. You see just behind that line,

25 on the inside of that line, as it were, the mark for the JNA barracks.

Page 4059

1 This seems to imply that the barracks was located in an area controlled by

2 the Croatian forces. I do agree that the JNA never left the barracks, but

3 throughout this period of time the JNA barracks was in an area where it

4 was surrounded by Croat defenders. Would you agree with me, sir?

5 A. Yes, that sounds likely.

6 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] We can take the exhibit off now.

7 But next I would like to show Exhibit 186.

8 Q. You remember this one, sir, don't you? You drew a line today and

9 explained that the second front line, as it were, was near Sajmiste. If

10 we look at this, it's clear that the JNA's outside. What I want to know

11 is about the positions at Mitnica, positions that were still under the

12 control of the forces. You agree with me, right?

13 A. That's at Mitnica between Vucedol and the first houses in Mitnica.

14 Q. Can you mark that for us on this map, please.

15 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] We intend to tender this as a

16 separate exhibit. We don't want to spoil this one.

17 Q. I assume this is the continuation of that line?

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Maybe it's easier for us to have a clean map, a new one. Do you

20 want a fresh, unmarked map, or do you want a new one?

21 A. That's all right.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Can we please take this exhibit off

24 then and place -- and place 186 -- 156. I see that the transcript

25 suggests 186. I meant 156.

Page 4060

1 Q. Can you now find your way around, sir? The JNA barracks, you see

2 that, right? The front line at Mitnica, can you mark that for us, please.

3 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] That's fine. Don't zoom in too much

4 because --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between Vucedol and Mitnica.

6 [Marks].

7 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Can you draw a line towards Luzac.

9 A. [Marks].

10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] If we could please zoom out a little

11 so that we can see Luzac to see if the witness can ... Thank you very

12 much.

13 Q. Could you please put a letter A where Mitnica is.

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Can you see Luzac on this map, sir? Mark it with a letter B,

16 please.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

19 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

20 this map into evidence.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: This map will be assigned exhibit number 189, Your

23 Honour.

24 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. Sir, now I'd like to go back to August 1991. You mentioned that

Page 4061

1 the first shelling of Vukovar occurred in August, and planes flying over.

2 I think you personally saw these planes, if I'm not mistaken. Is that

3 right?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Those two planes that you were talking about, do you know that

6 those were actually shot down while flying over Vukovar?

7 A. No, I don't.

8 Q. Have you ever heard anything about those two planes being shot

9 down?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you say "no," you mean you didn't hear anything about it at

12 the time, you didn't know about it at the time? Is that what you meant?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell me when you found out and what you found out about

15 these airplanes?

16 A. From stories of some people. I found out that the planes were

17 shot down at the other side of town. I didn't see it. People talked

18 about it.

19 Q. Do you know when in August this happened? When did you see these

20 planes, since you didn't see them being shot down?

21 A. I saw them in early August.

22 Q. Are you sure about that, sir, since many have already said that

23 this happened sometime -- approximately on the 24th of August when the

24 planes appeared?

25 A. Well, perhaps they saw other planes.

Page 4062

1 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me what your role was in the

2 war. Were you mobilised? In what way?

3 A. I wasn't mobilised. I was a member of the civilian protection of

4 the town of Vukovar. You all know what the tasks of civilian protection

5 are: Taking care of the civilian population, provision of food, water,

6 medicines, and everything else that is implied by the work of members of

7 the civilian protection.

8 Q. When did you start doing this work?

9 A. Sometime after I moved from my own building to the shelter

10 opposite from the hospital at the -- the shelter at the Vupik building.

11 Q. When you spoke before about preparations, you also talked about

12 May and June after the incident in Borovo Selo. You said that

13 preparations started in food, weapons, and so on. You didn't participate

14 in that, did you?

15 A. No, I didn't.

16 Q. If I'm not mistaken, at that time you were 43 years old or

17 thereabouts?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. You said that as you were a reserve officer, a trained reserve

20 officer, and then you also knew a lot from your earlier jobs, how is it

21 possible that you were not mobilised into the Croatian forces which surely

22 didn't have that many people at its disposal, in view of your training in

23 the military skills?

24 A. I was an invalid.

25 Q. So that's why?

Page 4063

1 A. Yes, that's why.

2 Q. So does that mean that even before that you were not obliged to

3 serve in the military. You were excused from serving?

4 A. Yes, that is correct. I was excused and I was no longer summoned

5 to perform any task.

6 Q. If I understand you properly, if you are exempt from military

7 service, then you were not called up. That was your case, was it?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Did you ever officially ask that a medical commission establish

10 the degree of your disability?

11 A. I asked for that before the conflict broke out. I asked to be

12 exempt. I asked the military department to exempt me, but after that I no

13 longer made such a request.

14 Q. When you replied to questions by my learned friend about the

15 public wells in Vukovar, you said that there were many such wells. My

16 question is about the private wells. Am I correct when I say that each

17 private home in Vukovar or practically every private house in Vukovar had

18 its own well that provided water but not drinking water?

19 A. I don't think that that is correct. It wasn't possible to dig so

20 many wells. The ones that did operate were used. It depends on the

21 owner. They were used for whatever their owner saw fit to use them for.

22 Q. Since Vukovar is on the banks of the Danube, that water is not at

23 a large depth, so it is easy to get to that water?

24 A. If I may correct you, the wells in Vukovar drew their water from

25 the Sava River.

Page 4064

1 Q. Very well. I won't insist on that, but ...

2 You mentioned that from the time you left your apartment you --

3 you went to the shelter which was close to the military and police

4 buildings in Vukovar. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. And you said that you were there until the 15th of November. Is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. You also said today that on at least two occasions or on two

10 occasions you saw Dr. Vesna Bosanac and Mr. Marin Bili in the shelter, and

11 their visits related to the negotiations that were being conducted?

12 A. Yes, that is correct. That was on two occasions.

13 Q. So it's logical that this happened before the 15th. Can you

14 determine how much before the 15th you saw them?

15 A. It was probably 10 or 15 days before the 15th.

16 Q. Thank you. Do you know who they had these negotiations with?

17 A. They said that they conducted talks with representatives of the

18 Yugoslav People's Army.

19 Q. And you know that on the basis of what they said?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Before I continue with my questions I would like to clarify

22 something in the transcript. It states the 15th, but it does not say the

23 15th of November. We're speaking about November. When we talked about

24 the 15th, what we meant was the 15th of November. Thank you.

25 You mentioned two occasions. What was the first time that you saw

Page 4065

1 them and what was the second time, and how much time passed between those

2 two occasions?

3 A. The two occasions were about two or three days apart.

4 Q. So you saw them twice within a period of three days. And on both

5 occasions it was said that they were discussing evacuation with

6 representatives of the JNA, evacuation from Vukovar?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. Before we go on, unfortunately we still have a problem with the

9 transcript. I think that you confirmed something but it wasn't recorded

10 in the transcript, that this is November, that it is the 15th of November,

11 that it's that date, that we are talking about that month.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. I apologise, but I had to say it again because of the

14 transcript.

15 After that, during those few days, you said the first meeting was

16 ten days before and then the second one was a couple of days after that.

17 Did you hear from somebody else perhaps, if not from them, what was going

18 on with these talks?

19 A. No, I didn't hear anything.

20 Q. And on the 15th of November did you hear anything? Was that the

21 reason why you moved into the hospital or --

22 A. I mentioned that there was talk about negotiations being conducted

23 between the JNA and Vukovar city representatives. We were not

24 100 per cent informed about the negotiations, so out of caution I decided

25 to go to the hospital with my wife because I thought that if anything were

Page 4066

1 to happen a larger crowd is more powerful, and there are more or better

2 possibilities to stay alive in a bigger crowd. So that was the main

3 reason why I moved to the hospital.

4 Q. Thank you. I think that today you mentioned how you heard that

5 the fall of Vukovar was inevitable, that it was bound to happen, and

6 perhaps that was also one of the reasons why you moved?

7 A. Because I was in the centre of town, in the middle of the events

8 close to the MUP, they were with us, from what they said I heard that

9 there were no longer any resources left for defence, that the hospital was

10 packed with wounded, not only the hospital but other shelters as well, and

11 that was one of the reasons for going to the hospital.

12 Q. Thank you. That day you came to the hospital with your wife.

13 Where did you stay at the hospital? Did anybody approve that you stayed

14 there, if you sought anybody's approval?

15 A. Well, we didn't seek anyone's approval. We settled in a corner

16 somewhere. We thought that was the safest place. It was in the basement

17 of the hospital, which was packed --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in the hall on the ground

20 floor of the hospital because the basement was so packed and there was no

21 room for anyone else, and also the atmosphere there was terrible, so

22 that's why we found a place for ourselves in the hall of the hospital,

23 believing that that was the safest place.

24 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Were you also together with people who were sick or wounded or

Page 4067

1 were they placed somewhere else?

2 A. They were in the basement of the hospital. We were above in the

3 hall of the hospital.

4 Q. At that time there still weren't that many civilians at the

5 hospital?

6 A. Right when we came, there weren't too many civilians from other

7 shelters that were near the hospital.

8 Q. And you stayed there. Neither you or your wife left the hospital

9 until the 19th. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm finished with one

13 topic, and I think it's time to complete our work for today. I plan to

14 continue and also finish tomorrow morning.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Domazet, thank you. Yes, well, there's only a

16 minute to go so there's little point on turning to a new topic.

17 We must adjourn now for the day, as another trial continues

18 shortly. We will resume tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning in this

19 courtroom.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Friday, the 10th day of

22 February, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.