Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4068

1 Friday, 10 February 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir. Could I remind you of the

8 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence which still

9 applies.

10 Mr. Domazet, had you concluded?

11 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Not yet. I do

12 have some questions left. Good morning to everyone.

13 WITNESS: WITNESS P-007 [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Domazet: [Continued]

16 Q. Good morning to you, sir. If you remember, we broke for the day

17 yesterday when we talked about you arriving in the hospital on the 15th of

18 November. You say that you went with your wife straight to that corridor

19 on the ground floor, or the mezzanine, depending on your perspective, but

20 there were no patients there.

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. In view of these several days that you spent at the hospital and

23 also taking into account your testimony yesterday, you were able to see a

24 number of well-known people who were there, either as patients or those

25 who simply came to the hospital at the time?

Page 4069

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you have occasion to see if there was any security there,

3 anyone providing security for the hospital?

4 A. I didn't see any security officers anywhere.

5 Q. During your stay there, you realised that there was some detained

6 JNA soldiers there being treated at the hospital, JNA soldiers who had

7 been taken prison.

8 A. Actually, I heard of one. I think this person was a JNA officer.

9 I heard of one such case.

10 Q. Do you remember the name, by any chance?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. Did you see this person? Do you know which part of the hospital

13 he was in?

14 A. I didn't see him. My understanding at the time was there was a

15 JNA officer, a single JNA officer, in the hospital somewhere at the time.

16 Q. Did you see Marin Vidic, Bili, at the hospital at any time?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know what he was doing there? Did you speak to him or did

19 you just --

20 A. I just saw him in passing.

21 Q. Can you specify the time, please, in relation to your time at the

22 hospital between the 15th and the 19th.

23 A. I don't know the exact day, but I must have seen him two or three

24 times.

25 Q. I'm sure you remember yesterday, in answer to one of the questions

Page 4070

1 asked by my learned friend, you identified quite a number of people from

2 that list that you were shown, people you had seen at the hospital. Now,

3 it appears that you knew some of these people in one way or another. Can

4 you tell me what they did in Vukovar exactly. What were they doing before

5 the war and what were they doing at the hospital? What about Ivo Ismet

6 Ahmetovic, what do you know about this person and when did you see him at

7 the hospital?

8 A. I saw him when I arrived at the hospital. I must have seen him

9 about two or three times. There were many wounded there and many people

10 in general. We didn't meet too many times; it must have been two or three

11 occasions, I think.

12 Q. What did he do for a living?

13 A. He was no hospital employee, if that's what you have in mind.

14 Q. Do you perhaps know if he was one of Vukovar's defenders?

15 A. Yes, he was.

16 Q. When you saw him at the hospital, was he in uniform, was he in

17 civilian clothes, some sort of an overcoat?

18 A. When I saw him, he was in civilian clothes.

19 Q. Thank you. Tomislav Bajnrauch, or Ivan Bajnrauch - I suppose

20 they're related - what can you tell me about these people?

21 A. Tomislav Bajnrauch was with me in the civil protection detail.

22 Q. Do you know when he arrived at the hospital?

23 A. He was coming to the hospital a lot due to the nature of his job.

24 Q. So what job was it that he had with the civil protection detail

25 and that had to do with the hospital?

Page 4071

1 A. We were in charge of the food and water supplies, primarily for

2 patients but also for the hospital's medical staff.

3 Q. I suppose you know this because he was there with you throughout.

4 He had not been wounded and was not at the hospital as a patient, was he?

5 A. No, that's right, he wasn't.

6 Q. What about Ivan Bajnrauch?

7 A. I don't know if they're related or not because I just know these

8 people by sight. I don't know them well.

9 Q. But you saw Ivan Bajnrauch at the hospital too, didn't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What about him; was he a defender, too?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What sort of clothes was he wearing when you saw him? Was he

14 wounded?

15 A. I'm not sure if he was wounded or not, but he was wearing civilian

16 clothes; that much I know.

17 Q. What about Lovro Barbir?

18 A. Lovro Barbir was an elderly man. He was a neighbour of mine in

19 the centre of town. He was at the hospital because his wife was a

20 hospital employee.

21 Q. What about Ante Bodrozic?

22 A. He was a waiter in the Danube Hotel. He was not a hospital

23 employee.

24 Q. Was he a defender, too?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4072

1 Q. Josip Bradaric?

2 A. We worked together at my company. He was a commercial salesman or

3 something like that and he was with me at the hospital; I saw him there.

4 Q. Was he involved in the town's defence?

5 A. I don't know about him. I don't know that he was.

6 Q. Did he work as a police officer at any time?

7 A. No, never.

8 Q. What about Zvonimir Caleba?

9 A. Caleta.

10 Q. Caleta.

11 A. Another waiter from the Danube Hotel.

12 Q. Up until the war, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What about during the war?

15 A. I have no idea. I saw him at the hospital; that was all.

16 Q. Stanko Duvnjak?

17 A. He was a police officer of the Vukovar MUP. He was at the

18 hospital because he had been wounded.

19 Q. Vinko Ebner, Djuro?

20 A. I know this person by sight. He hails from Sarengrad and I

21 suppose that's where he lived.

22 Q. What was he doing at the hospital, do you know that?

23 A. I have no idea, but I don't think he was wounded.

24 Q. Was he a defender, too?

25 A. I think so.

Page 4073

1 Q. What about Milan Grejza?

2 A. He was an active-duty police officer with the Ministry of Internal

3 Affairs Vukovar detachment. He had been wounded in his leg.

4 Q. Sinisa Glavasevic, he was a journalist; right?

5 A. I knew all about him.

6 Q. When did you see him at the hospital?

7 A. I did not see him at the hospital.

8 Q. I think you described him yesterday as another person you had seen

9 at the hospital.

10 A. That's possible, but right now it escapes me.

11 Q. What about Tomislav Hegedus?

12 A. Another active-duty police officer with the Vukovar MUP.

13 Q. Throughout the war; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You saw him at the hospital, didn't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When and how, do you remember?

18 A. It was just in passing.

19 Q. You say "in passing." Was he passing or were you passing? Did

20 you bump into each other somewhere?

21 A. We were passing one another.

22 Q. So he wasn't in a prone position because he was wounded, lying

23 somewhere in a bed in a hospital?

24 A. I didn't really notice that. I didn't notice if he was wounded

25 not, if that's what you have in mind.

Page 4074

1 Q. Nikica Holjevac?

2 A. I saw him sitting on one of those auxiliary beds, but not much

3 apart from that. I think he was a local journalist.

4 Q. Boris Antol?

5 A. Boris Jantol.

6 Q. You identified him yesterday as another person you saw at the

7 hospital.

8 A. His wife and their two-month baby was with me in that shelter

9 across the way from the hospital. He came often, needless to say, to see

10 his wife. I used to see him quite often around Vukovar.

11 Q. Was he a defender, too?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember when exactly you saw him at the hospital?

14 A. Not exactly.

15 Q. What about Branko Lukenda?

16 A. Likewise, an active-duty police officer in Vukovar.

17 Q. You saw him in the hospital; do you remember when?

18 A. I can no longer remember exactly when I saw all these people

19 individual -- individually.

20 Q. What about Milan Magdic?

21 A. He was a waiter in the Lav Hotel. He was seriously wounded and he

22 was lying in a bed.

23 Q. What about Sinisa Veber? Did you see this person at the hospital?

24 A. Sinisa Veber was also at the hospital, but not wounded. He was

25 also one of the town's defenders.

Page 4075

1 Q. Mate Vlaho?

2 A. A hospital employee.

3 Q. What about Ivan Vulic?

4 A. There were two persons called Ivan Vulic. Which one do you have

5 in mind?

6 Q. You talked about one of them yesterday as another person you saw

7 at the hospital. In case you saw both, please provide information in

8 relation to both of them.

9 A. The younger one was the one that I was talking about. He had a

10 Band-Aid over one of his eyes, or on one of his eyes. I saw him out in

11 the street.

12 Q. Wearing what sort of clothes?

13 A. Civilian clothes.

14 Q. Was he a defender, too, do you know that?

15 A. Yes, he was.

16 Q. What about Zvonko Vulic?

17 A. He was wounded, too. He had a leg wound. I saw him lying in a

18 bed, but I don't know if he was a defender or not.

19 Q. I think you said that he was sitting on a bed.

20 A. Yes, indeed I did.

21 Q. Because what I see in the transcript does not reflect your words.

22 What about all these people we have been mentioning; did any of

23 them join you on the way to Velepromet? Could you see what was happening?

24 A. I can't remember any of those people on my -- on my truck or

25 arriving at Velepromet and Vupik.

Page 4076

1 Q. When the transport was on its way, the one you've described, can

2 you tell us if all the civilians from the hospital were on it?

3 A. I only know about the one that I was on.

4 Q. Do you know about the fact that some people stayed behind at the

5 hospital, although they were civilians and, according to what had been

6 said, they were supposed to go to Velepromet?

7 A. I did hear that some civilians remained.

8 Q. Speaking about the transport, you said there -- you said there

9 were over ten military trucks involved, didn't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did those military trucks have a tarpaulin? Were they covered and

12 did they have the ladders to climb in order to get on the truck?

13 A. Yes, they did.

14 Q. So you would get up the ladder and board the truck; that's how you

15 got on, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In answer to one of the questions you were asked, you talked about

18 a number of persons mentioned in the Vukovar official note. Right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Just a couple of words about this official note for the benefit of

21 the Trial Chamber. I believe you know about this because you worked at

22 the hospital. An official note is a record of something that a MUP

23 official took as a statement, but it's not really an accurate record and

24 is never signed as a rule. Would that seem to be a fair summary?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4077

1 Q. You gave a statement to a MUP officer on the 15th of May, 1992.

2 That's what the note reflects, but the note was compiled five days later,

3 on the 20th of May. Isn't that right?

4 A. Yes, that is indeed what I saw.

5 Q. Can you agree with me, sir, that before this trial began this

6 statement was never shown to you by any police officers and such-like?

7 A. No.

8 Q. When you spoke about the persons in that official note, you said

9 that all of them were armed and wearing all kinds of uniforms, as you

10 said.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You also said at one point that you believed all of them to be

13 members of Serb paramilitary formations, but you were not able to tell

14 which ones exactly.

15 A. Yes, I still believe that. Back then, however, I had no idea who

16 belonged to which unit or who had what sort of insignia.

17 Q. When you speak about Serb paramilitary units, do you also include

18 the Territorial Defence of the Serbian Krajina which was set up at one

19 time?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were members of the Krajina TO wearing the olive-drab uniforms

22 that were used by the JNA, too?

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the witness's answer;

24 could the witness please be asked to repeat.

25 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

Page 4078

1 Q. The interpreter didn't get your answer, sir, to my last question.

2 Can you please repeat your answer.

3 A. I said they were wearing all different kinds of uniform. Because

4 I simply didn't know at the time who belonged to which unit, I wasn't able

5 to distinguish.

6 Q. Were you able to distinguish these people from those who were

7 usually described as the Chetniks?

8 A. Yes, I was able and I am able to distinguish them from those.

9 Q. By what means? Uniform? Insignia? Something else?

10 A. Only the insignia, I believe. I believe that to be the only

11 distinction.

12 Q. When you looked at that list yesterday and you spoke about each of

13 the individual names on that list, you said you believed them all to be

14 members of Serb paramilitary units. Does that mean that in your opinion

15 none of the persons you identified was a regular JNA soldier?

16 A. I don't think any of them were, no.

17 Q. You identified one of those people as Zigic with the rank of

18 major. Do you remember that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You said he was wearing some sort of a dark brown uniform, did you

21 not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What kind of uniform was it exactly? Was it the olive-drab

24 uniform or was that a different uniform?

25 A. Zigic used to work with me in the Vukovar MUP. He was a senior

Page 4079

1 inspector, police inspector. When I saw him, he had one of those

2 officer's uniforms on; it was brown and it was the JNA type.

3 Q. But what kind exactly; the olive-drab one?

4 A. No, the ceremonial one, the brown uniform worn by high-ranking

5 officers. I'm not sure how I should put that to you.

6 Q. You are a reserve officer yourself. Was that a reserve officer's

7 uniform or --

8 A. No, it was brown -- a brown uniform is a brown uniform. It was

9 dark brown, moreover.

10 Q. Both parts of the uniform?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. From what you told us, one could see that he was from Vukovar.

13 A. I don't know whether he had been born in Vukovar, but he spent

14 many years as an inspector with the MUP and he was my senior.

15 Q. Stanko Vujanovic, do you know that person?

16 A. Stanko Vujanovic, the taxi driver?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Is he Zigic's brother-in-law?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Son-in-law.

22 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

23 Q. To a question posed yesterday as to what room at Velepromet you

24 were taken to, you said the room that was later called the room of death.

25 You said that some called it a carpenter shop and other ones called it the

Page 4080

1 room of death. When was it that you heard about this room of death for

2 the first time?

3 A. Upon our return from the camp.

4 Q. When you talked about boarding the buses, having left the room

5 where you were, and I believe your bus was right behind the military

6 Pinzgauer, there were no follow-up questions about that topic but I wanted

7 to ask you now whether you were mistreated, either yourself or any of the

8 other people on the bus subsequently.

9 A. No.

10 Q. I meant during the time the bus was there before it started moving

11 and until you reached Sremska Mitrovica.

12 A. Up to Sremska Mitrovica, there was no abuse.

13 Q. Since you used to work with the police, although you had left

14 prior to the events concerned, did you used to know Ivan Micanin? He used

15 to be employed with the Vukovar MUP.

16 A. Could you please repeat the name?

17 Q. Ivo Micanin.

18 A. I don't know him.

19 Q. Franjo Kracak?

20 A. Yes, I do; he used to be a carpenter.

21 Q. Do you know what he used to do during the war?

22 A. During my stay in the hospital, or before that, I did not see him.

23 Q. Did you hear that he was later accused of crimes committed against

24 Serbian population?

25 A. No, I did not.

Page 4081

1 Q. You probably know who Tomislav Mercep was.

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Franjo Kracak, was he a member of his group?

4 A. I don't know. I didn't associate with those people.

5 Q. When you were asked about planes yesterday, you mentioned the two

6 and you heard that they were shot down but that you did not see that

7 yourself. That was at the beginning of the conflict in Vukovar; isn't

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you at any later stage hear that any other planes were shot

11 down in Vukovar?

12 A. There were different rumours. I didn't see any of that myself,

13 and one has to make a distinction.

14 Q. Do you know where the main headquarters were in Vukovar during the

15 war?

16 A. I don't know if there ever was such a thing as main headquarters.

17 As I said, Vukovar was trying to defend itself in its entirety, and each

18 individual part of the city probably had its own command or, as you call

19 it, HQ. As for the main HQ, I wouldn't know about that.

20 Q. But you probably know who was the chief commander in Vukovar.

21 A. At what time?

22 Q. During the conflict.

23 A. I believe there were two.

24 Q. Yes, and where did their HQ -- where was it located?

25 A. I don't know exactly. I didn't use to go there.

Page 4082

1 Q. In your statement given to the OTP, by the end you cited a

2 conclusion of yours and I wanted to ask you if you are still of that

3 opinion. You said: "My conclusion was that they -- the JNA did not know

4 that the other Serbs were to commit crimes against us." You said that

5 then; do you still abide by that?

6 A. That's what I stated in the statement and I still believe it was

7 so.

8 Q. I have no further questions. I thank you for your answers.

9 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

10 examination.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Domazet.

12 Ms. Tapuskovic.

13 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

14 morning to everyone present in the courtroom.

15 Cross-examination by Ms. Tapuskovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. My name is Mira Tapuskovic.

17 I am one of the counsel for Mr. Miroslav Radic.

18 During the years you spent working in your profession, so as not

19 to go into detail and not to reveal your identity, but at the time did you

20 have an opportunity to go to the building of Velepromet?

21 A. At what time?

22 Q. Before the outbreak of the conflict in Vukovar.

23 A. I was able to, but I never went there.

24 Q. So you never actually went to the building?

25 A. No.

Page 4083

1 Q. Yesterday you explained the sequence of events at Velepromet, and

2 we used a chart made by yourself.

3 A. I received that chart.

4 Q. You said somebody made that for you some six months ago?

5 A. Yes, more or less.

6 Q. Was it a friend of yours?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was that a copy of a cadastre plan?

9 A. It seems so.

10 Q. As for the numbers on the sketch, do they tell you anything?

11 A. No, nothing.

12 Q. The handwritten remarks or markings on individual facilities, were

13 those made by yourself?

14 A. No.

15 Q. When your friend made that sketch for you, did you give him any

16 instructions as to how to go about that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Does the sketch reflect the current situation at Velepromet or,

19 rather, does it reflect the situation as it was 14 years ago?

20 A. As far as he told me and as far as he is concerned, this is the

21 current situation.

22 Q. Thank you. To go back to the period when you were inside the

23 shelter, do you know what the large shelters in Vukovar were?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Were those Olajnica 1 and Olajnica 2?

Page 4084

1 A. Yes, and Komerc Borovo.

2 Q. Did that also include the buildings of Alpina and Varteks?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. As well as the schools of Vladimir Nazor and a large shelter at

5 Strossmayer Street?

6 A. I don't know about that.

7 Q. You don't know about both of them or either of them?

8 A. I don't know for both of the shelters.

9 Q. Were you given a weapon when you overtook your duties with the

10 civilian protection and when you started distributing food and medication?

11 A. I never used to have a weapon. I wasn't given one.

12 Q. We heard a witness from the civilian protection who was a

13 colleague of yours who said he did have a weapon. What about other

14 members of the civil protection?

15 A. I don't know. As for the people who were with me, they didn't,

16 and there were members of the civilian protection around -- across the

17 city.

18 Q. When you testified before the Belgrade court, you said that you

19 were assigned to the civilian protection. Could you tell us by whom?

20 A. As I was a handicapped person, I went there myself to see what it

21 was that I could do, and then they sent me to civilian protection.

22 Q. I didn't hear you properly. What did you do exactly?

23 A. I went to their staff and I told them that I wanted to do

24 something. They told me to stay there, with their organisation, and that

25 I could help there.

Page 4085

1 Q. Did they tell you then what shelters you were to service?

2 A. They did.

3 Q. I -- what shelters in particular?

4 A. Just one. There was a large apartment block across from the

5 hospital, next to the cemetery. It had a large shelter in the basement.

6 Q. Is it true that there was -- there were reserves of food for the

7 hospital there as well?

8 A. That was on the upper floor; it used to be a small department

9 store.

10 Q. What about the warehouse itself?

11 A. Yes, there was some food there as well.

12 Q. You said that in that warehouse, as you replied yesterday to an

13 OTP question, that in that warehouse -- pardon me, shelter, not a

14 warehouse, but rather a shelter, that there were between 50 to 60 people

15 there. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you said those were mostly elderly people?

18 A. Yes, and a few women with small children.

19 Q. Can you tell us where younger men from that area were, from the

20 area serviced by that shelter?

21 A. As I already mentioned, next to the building where I was there was

22 a large military apartment block. Those were military retirees, elderly

23 people with their spouses. They all came to that shelter, and they were

24 with us until the end.

25 Q. All right. But I asked you about younger men.

Page 4086

1 A. I don't know about the younger men. They were probably somewhere

2 outside.

3 Q. Thank you. Yesterday and in your statement you said that the

4 soldiers and the military and the policemen used to come to the shelter

5 and used to inform you about the situation in Vukovar.

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. As a member of the civilian protection who worked in medication

8 distribution as well as food distribution, did you used to leave the

9 shelter and see what the situation was in Vukovar?

10 A. Yes, but it was in the environs of the hospital and the apartment

11 block where the shelter was.

12 Q. Since your duty was to distribute food and medication, how come

13 you only went as far as the hospital? Does that mean that your particular

14 warehouse supplied the hospital exclusively with food and medication?

15 A. Yes; the hospital plus the people in the shelter.

16 Q. Thank you. You also said that the police station was damaged by

17 shelling. That building is in close proximity to the hospital, making it

18 very close to the shelter where you were.

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. Perhaps I wasn't quite focussed, but could you tell me, when was

21 the police station hit?

22 A. Some ten days before that. I arrived around the 15th of October,

23 and it may have been damaged some ten days prior to that.

24 Q. Thank you. That is quite precise. You said that the policemen

25 from the station came to the shelter as well?

Page 4087

1 A. Yes, they did.

2 Q. You also said that the commander of the Vukovar police station,

3 Stipe Pole, came there.

4 A. Yes, he did.

5 Q. Stipe Pole, is that his full name or his first name Stjepan Pole?

6 A. Yes; Stjepan Pole.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. You're welcome.

9 Q. Those policemen, including Stjepan Pole, they were there until

10 your departure to the hospital on the 15th of October [as interpreted]?

11 A. Yes, they stayed even longer after I left.

12 Q. In your statement you mention that 90 per cent of the people from

13 the shelter that you were in accompanied you to the hospital.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If 90 per cent of the people went, then it means that also some

16 MUP members who were in the shelter went to the hospital as well.

17 A. No. As I said a minute ago, they remained behind.

18 Q. How many MUP members did come to the shelter in the first place,

19 then?

20 A. It is difficult to say. I can't even approximate.

21 Q. Were all those people that you mentioned today and when answering

22 to my colleague Mr. Domazet's questions, as members of the MUP and for

23 whom you said you saw in the hospital?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How can you say then that they remained behind when you told

Page 4088

1 Mr. Domazet that you saw them in the hospital? It means that most of the

2 policemen, perhaps not on the same day, but most of them did leave the

3 shelter and go to the hospital.

4 A. No.

5 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, for the transcript there's an error and I

6 suspect my learned friend would want it to be right. At 20.11, it refers

7 to October, not November.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

9 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can't see the

10 transcript from where I'm standing, so I would like to thank my colleague.

11 Q. You were telling us about how the people who organised Vukovar's

12 defence tried to breakthrough. Isn't that true?

13 A. Yes, that's what I heard.

14 Q. Inter alia, did you hear as to when they tried to break out?

15 A. As far as I heard, they tried on several occasions, depending on

16 when somebody wanted to do something.

17 Q. Since you confirmed that you witnessed a conversation between

18 Marin Vidic, Bili, and Dr. Bosanac together -- and their conversation with

19 the commander of the police station, did you overhear then about who was

20 to join the attempt to break out and who was to stay in Vukovar?

21 A. I wasn't close enough to hear who was to stay and who was to go.

22 Q. But you said that you were close enough to overhear their

23 conversation about signing an agreement, or truce, as well as about

24 evacuation. So what did you hear exactly?

25 A. I told you what I heard.

Page 4089

1 Q. Did you ever meet Mile Dedakovic?

2 A. No, never, until the present day.

3 Q. Do you know until what time was he a commander of Vukovar's

4 defence? A minute ago you said that there were two people at the head of

5 the staff.

6 A. I know that he left at some point but he never returned.

7 Q. Do you know when exactly?

8 A. I can't. I don't want to speculate.

9 Q. Do you know where he went to?

10 A. Later on I heard that he had left to Vinkovci.

11 Q. And then he headed the Zupanja-Vukovar operations group?

12 A. I don't know anything about that.

13 Q. Did you hear that the first attempts of breaking out were as early

14 as early November?

15 A. Which attempts do you have in mind?

16 Q. The one you mentioned in your statement.

17 A. I don't know when people tried to break out.

18 Q. The civilian protection, was it organised in a way that other

19 members, apart from yourself because you said that you mainly serviced the

20 hospital, but did other members move in between various shelters and

21 warehouses and were they distributed in various places?

22 A. I believe so.

23 Q. Did you hear that your colleagues from the civilian protection had

24 any problems with the minefields?

25 A. No.

Page 4090

1 Q. Since you were distributing food and medication, what did you know

2 about the food warehouse at Nama?

3 A. When the shelling of Vukovar began, the Nama department store was

4 completely burnt to the ground on two occasions and I don't know whether

5 there was any such thing as a food warehouse there.

6 Q. Thank you. What do you know about the forces in Bogdanovci,

7 Croatian defence forces?

8 A. I don't know. I didn't go there.

9 Q. But you said that both policemen and soldiers came to your shelter

10 and that they used to report on the situation in Vukovar.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I apologise. I interrupted you.

13 A. Yes. They came there individually, but nobody reported in the

14 strict sense of -- in the strict meaning of the word. Nobody told me

15 about the numbers of people defending Vukovar.

16 Q. The HOS forces were at Negoslavci?

17 A. I didn't see them there.

18 Q. Did you hear about whether they were there or not?

19 A. I did not.

20 Q. Do you know who Blago Zadro was?

21 A. Perhaps.

22 Q. Do you know who Robert Zadro was?

23 A. Yes, a son of his.

24 Q. Blago Zadro was killed on the 16th of October.

25 A. Yes, in Borovo Naselje.

Page 4091

1 Q. At Trpinjska Cesta.

2 A. Yes, in its close proximity.

3 Q. Did you see Stjepan Pole after that in the hospital?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Since you said there were 50 to 60 civilians, that is elderly

6 people, as you put it, in the shelter and that the soldiers and the

7 policemen from the military -- from the police station came, what was the

8 total number of the people in the shelter at that time?

9 A. I can only repeat yet again that I did not pay much attention to

10 the number of the policemen.

11 Q. Perhaps we could use the same method then used by our esteemed

12 colleague to guess. Could you tell us if there were more than 10 or more

13 than 20?

14 A. I believe there were more than 20, if I have to mention a certain

15 figure.

16 Q. You said that in the shelter when the head of hospital,

17 Dr. Bosanac, came, that there were means of radio communication there.

18 A. Yes. A police telephone was installed there. I'm not an expert,

19 I don't know its proper name.

20 Q. But you say that this was a police phone; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was this something that was brought over from the police station

23 itself?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. You say there was communication and you say that you could hear

Page 4092

1 conversations. What did you overhear of the conversation between Vesna

2 Bosanac and whoever happened to be at the other end?

3 A. As I said, I couldn't exactly hear everything that was being said,

4 but I heard that negotiations were underway for an evacuation to take

5 place, that the buses would soon be there, and that the negotiations were

6 going quite well.

7 Q. Do you know if there was more radio equipment elsewhere in

8 Vukovar, in a different shelter?

9 A. I don't know that.

10 Q. Let us now briefly go to what was going on at the hospital. You

11 said in your statement to the OTP that the Chetniks arrived at the

12 hospital together with JNA soldiers. Further, you testified in the

13 Dokmanovic case on page 551, line 2, that the Chetniks were outside the

14 building, in the courtyard. Sir, can you remember precisely where the

15 Chetniks were at the time -- or rather, those units which you at the time

16 described as Chetniks?

17 A. This has to be a mistake. I said -- or rather, I assumed that

18 when the JNA arrived at the hospital they were followed by paramilitaries.

19 When I came out on the hospital steps, they were in the group, moving

20 about the hospital courtyard.

21 Q. When you testified in the Belgrade trial by videolink, you

22 confirmed that the hospital was first reached by people from Vukovar and

23 from elsewhere, and it was only after this that the JNA eventually

24 arrived.

25 A. I don't think that would have been feasible. I don't think that's

Page 4093

1 true.

2 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt my learned

3 friend, but perhaps it's necessary at this stage. She has made a

4 reference to the Dokmanovic trial, 551, line 2, in relation to Chetniks.

5 I don't have that particular reference. I haven't got any reference to

6 Chetnik at all. If it is there - and I repeat, which I've said before -

7 perhaps it might be prudent for the document to be put before the witness

8 so that we're absolutely correct. And it also applies to any other

9 challenges going to be put.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It seems that Mr. Moore can't find any reference to

11 Chetniks at that page, Ms. Tapuskovic.

12 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the word "Chetnik"

13 is not to be found on that page; I agree with my learned friend Mr. Moore.

14 I am, as we speak, looking at that page. I just wanted to use a shortcut,

15 as it were, because at one time in his testimony the witness refers to

16 these people as "natives of Vukovar" and "local Serb forces," and on a

17 different occasion he refers to them as "the Chetniks." I referred to the

18 previous page of the transcript, but I just wanted to cut across, as it

19 were, just for us to be able to ascertain what those groups were,

20 regardless of what the witness called them at various times, and when

21 these groups reached the hospital in relation to when the JNA people got

22 there. But I believe we can obtain clarification from the witness

23 himself.

24 JUDGE PARKER: I agree with that. The problem is that the

25 transcript then suggests that the witness has changed his account in a

Page 4094

1 material way because he no longer says there were Chetniks, whereas, as

2 you have just indicated, you're merely searching to get from him who he

3 says was there, so that to misquote the transcript of a previous trial can

4 leave the record with quite a misleading indication of the witness's

5 position. So if you could be much more careful about that, please, and if

6 you are going to be trying to pin a witness down to something that he said

7 before, or she has said, it would be important to let the witness see the

8 previous transcript or statement or whatever it is.

9 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I fully accept your

10 criticism; that much is certain. I will try to avoid this sort of

11 practice in future. I cannot confront this witness with the transcript

12 because the transcript is in English. It may have been my mistake not

13 reading back the relevant part to the witness, but please accept my

14 apologies. I will now move on and try to avoid such mistakes in future.

15 Q. Let us now move on to what happened at Vupik. You said that you

16 were separated from the group by Darko Fot, you and a number of other

17 persons. Is that true?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sir, did you know any of those people?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did Darko Fot make any threats to you at the time? Was it at

22 gunpoint that he took you across to the Velepromet building?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Why did you then cross with Darko Fot, alongside with a number of

25 other people, from Vupik to Velepromet?

Page 4095

1 A. It was me, Aleksandar Cotar, and a number of other people -- a

2 number of other people were added to that group, and then Darko told us:

3 Now we're walking across the road to Velepromet, and that was all.

4 Q. Thank you. When you reached Velepromet, did you see any JNA

5 people there?

6 A. You mean across the way, at Velepromet? I didn't notice any

7 there.

8 Q. You gave us a detailed account yesterday, using the sketch that

9 you brought, of how Boro Zuvanovic approached you, didn't you?

10 A. There was another man before he came.

11 Q. But that's not the one I'm asking about. I'm asking you about

12 Boro Zuvanovic, aren't I?

13 A. That's all right.

14 Q. You said he took you and another man called Jurica down a route

15 which you marked as the route stretching from B to C on that map. Do you

16 still remember that, sir?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So this time when you went with Jurica and Boro Zuvanovic, were

19 only the three of you there or was there anyone else around at this time?

20 A. Only the three of us.

21 Q. Did you walk side by side or in a line?

22 A. Boro was walking between the two of us.

23 Q. It was entirely dark by this time; night had fallen at Velepromet.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You said there were quite many people there.

Page 4096

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. If we look at the sketch we get an idea of the distance involved,

3 but could you please try to specify in metres the distance between the

4 place where you were standing before you were approached by Boro Zuvanovic

5 and the spot that Boro Zuvanovic took you to with Jurica.

6 A. I can't really say, not even a ballpark figure, but it's quite a

7 long way.

8 Q. Can you please tell us if en route from B to C there were other

9 persons passing you, people who were at Velepromet at the same time as

10 you.

11 A. Several people passed us on the way. This was not very close to

12 where most of the things were happening outside the administration

13 building.

14 Q. You also said that the Chetniks - I'm talking about your statement

15 in B/C/S, page 5, second passage --

16 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] You see, Your Honours, I'm trying

17 very hard not to make any erroneous indication.

18 Q. You say that the Chetniks were using electric torches.

19 A. Yes, that was across the way; that was at Vupik.

20 Q. Were they using any sort of torches around here?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You passed a person called Capalo on the way there, didn't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In the official note dated the 15th of May, 1992, and in your

25 statement, you mentioned that Capalo was carrying something in his hand.

Page 4097

1 A. Yes, a knife.

2 Q. There you go. You also said that he was carrying something else

3 in his other hand, wasn't he?

4 A. Yes, a human head. I would say I'm about 99 per cent certain

5 about that.

6 Q. You said yesterday you were 99 per cent certain about this being a

7 human head.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In that official note you specified it was the head of an unknown

10 young man. Do you remember that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. That may be because you never actually saw this official note

13 until you arrived here to testify.

14 A. Yes, that's right. That's what I've said, isn't it?

15 Q. When you testified in the Dokmanovic case, you didn't mention this

16 scene at all, did you?

17 A. Nobody asked.

18 Q. When you testified in Belgrade, you never referred to this

19 particular occurrence, did you?

20 A. Nobody asked.

21 Q. In preparation for this testimony as you were being proofed by the

22 OTP, did anyone refresh your memory or show you the official note and your

23 official statement from 1995?

24 A. I had those, yes.

25 Q. Thank you. You saw Jankovic [as interpreted] before Boro

Page 4098

1 Zuvanovic appeared, didn't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you remember if Jankovic [as interpreted] actually addressed

4 you?

5 A. Yes, he did.

6 Q. What exactly did he tell you?

7 (redacted)

8 Q. In the Dokmanovic case, page 555, lines 1 through 5 on the

9 transcript, you were asked specifically --

10 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, I don't

11 wish to extemporise and I need to go back to the transcript and quote the

12 relevant passage for the witness. Your Honours, I'll have to first read

13 the witness's answer where he refers to this person.

14 [In English] "Again, I was taken out of this group by another man.

15 His name was Mico Dzankovic. I knew him personally, too. He was a waiter

16 in Vukovar."

17 [Interpretation] My question: [In English] "Did he say anything

18 to you?

19 "A. No."

20 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, these are your words, words you uttered

21 while testifying in the Dokmanovic case. In the Belgrade case, the Ovcara

22 case, on page 7, lines 10 through 12, you say that he addressed you by

23 name and asked you what you were doing there.

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. But in the Dokmanovic case you said he never spoke to you. When

Page 4099

1 answering my first question, you seem to have suggested that he told you

2 something different. Yet now you confirm that he told you what I've just

3 read back to you. He called you by your name and he asked you what you

4 were doing there. You're under oath here, sir; I hope you understand

5 that. Can you please describe what exactly transpired between you and

6 Mico Dzankovic.

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

13 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Thank you very much, sir. I have no more questions for you.

15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this completes my

16 cross-examination.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Given the time, we might have

18 the break now, do you think, Mr. Bulatovic? There are redactions, so it

19 will need to be half an hour. We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

23 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, it's really in relation to

24 Ms. Tapuskovic's cross-examination vis-a-vis what was said in the Belgrade

25 trials for this witness, clearly the point being, as the Defence would see

Page 4100

1 it, the apparent inconsistency. I mean no discourtesy at all to my

2 learned friend; I know how difficult it is sometimes to cross-examine, but

3 I would submit that there may be an element of inaccuracy in the account

4 put to the witness. And perhaps the safest way would be for the witness

5 to be reminded exactly of what was said and then it's on the record and

6 the Court can draw its own conclusions if there be inconsistency or no.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

8 Yes, Mr. Bulatovic. If you would be good enough, if you're

9 cross-examining on what was said in the trial in Belgrade, to quote

10 precisely the passage you're relying on. Thank you.

11 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, it's obviously the way I put it: It's

12 actually the questions that have been put by Ms. Tapuskovic that there may

13 be the inconsistency.


15 MR. MOORE: No, it's -- so it's really -- the witness should have

16 the opportunity of having rehearsed to him again what was actually said in

17 Belgrade by Ms. Tapuskovic.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Why don't you do that in cross-examination,

19 Mr. Moore.

20 MR. MOORE: Very well, of course. Thank you.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry, Mr. Bulatovic, I thought it was something

22 you had done. So please carry on.

23 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

24 morning to all.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Bulatovic:

Page 4101

1 Q. Good morning to you, sir. I'm Momcilo Bulatovic, co-counsel for

2 Mr. Sljivancanin. You have been asked quite a number of questions by both

3 my learned friend from the OTP and my fellow Defence teams. I will do my

4 best not to ask any redundant questions, any questions already answered,

5 but whenever clarification is required I will make sure to raise any

6 matters. Sir, please make a pause between my question and your answer

7 because we happen to speak the same language, more or less the same

8 language, that is.

9 In your statement to the OTP, there is one piece of information

10 that is slightly different from what you told us here. I hope to keep

11 your identity safe, but this has to do with your years of service. You

12 said that you worked for a certain institution from 1974 until 1984, and

13 here you said from 1971 until 1981.

14 A. It's the latter. I was working in Vukovar.

15 Q. So 1971 to 1981?

16 A. Yes, in Vukovar.

17 Q. Your personal information indicates that you have the reserve rank

18 of second lieutenant. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's true.

20 Q. You say that you are a disabled person. When did your disability

21 occur, so to speak?

22 A. That was between 1981 and 1982.

23 Q. And when did you leave the army?

24 A. It's difficult to remember exactly.

25 Q. But it was certainly before your disability. Right?

Page 4102

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As second lieutenant, did you ever take part in any military

3 drills? Were you called up at any time?

4 A. You mean after my regular military service?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Yes, twice.

7 Q. Did you sign for any military equipment as a second lieutenant?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. What about the ranks?

10 A. No, not for the purpose of military drills.

11 Q. And other than that?

12 A. No, I had no ranks at home.

13 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] The number of questions that I'm

14 about to ask might endanger the protective measures for this witness, so I

15 believe it might be a good idea to go briefly into private session.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4103

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

6 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. As you went about your duties as specified a while ago, were you

8 ever in touch with any of the people you mentioned, the people you saw at

9 the hospital or at Velepromet, the people from Vukovar?

10 A. I don't remember encountering any of them in any official

11 capacity.

12 Q. Did any of these people you've mentioned here ever break the law

13 and maybe it was that sort of situation where you encountered some of

14 them?

15 A. Perhaps.

16 Q. You say "perhaps." Can you please tell the Court which of these

17 people had form, so to speak.

18 A. Dzankovic was convicted for murder before the war. It was at the

19 tip in Vukovar that he murdered somebody.

20 Q. Did you know -- did you know anything about the criminal past, as

21 it were, of the man you refer to as Capalo?

22 A. He was a petty gambler, as far as I know.

23 Q. Did you ever come across Mr. Martin Dosen while you were working

24 as a police officer? Do you know what he did in his own spare time, so to

25 speak, because we know that he worked as a professional fisherman for a

Page 4104

1 while, but before that he had a different job.

2 A. He worked at the Borovo factory and later became a professional

3 fisherman. I didn't know that much about his private life, but I know

4 that he liked to play cards.

5 Q. Do you know if Martin Dosen was in touch with somebody named

6 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan?

7 A. No, I've never heard anything about that. First I hear of it.

8 Q. In order to go back to some of my opening questions, I want to

9 discuss the shelter to which you went. If I understand you correctly,

10 that was the Vupik shelter, wasn't it?

11 A. Yes, it was in the Vupik building.

12 Q. You said how many people there were there. Let's go back to the

13 point in time when the police came. This is something my learned friend

14 Ms. Tapuskovic asked you about. Was there anything else in the Vupik

15 factory where you were?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Vupik, just in case you know, does it have any other shelters,

18 apart from this one?

19 A. I don't know. This was a residential building belonging to Vupik;

20 three floors, a shop on the ground floor, and down in the cellar there was

21 a large shelter running the entire length of the building.

22 Q. Does the name Zvezdana Polovina ring a bell?

23 A. I think she worked as a journalist in Vukovar.

24 Q. Do you know where Radio Vukovar was physically located? Later on

25 it was renamed Croatian Radio Vukovar, wasn't it?

Page 4105

1 A. Early on they were across the way from the main pharmacy in

2 Vukovar. It was at the junction near the Pecanski Kriz town centre near

3 the Danube hotel. That's where the building was physically located and I

4 suppose they had a shelter in that building.

5 Q. Do you know if Croatian Radio Vukovar was ever moved to any of

6 Vupik's shelters?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. You spoke about the existence of police radio -- of a police radio

9 link between the Vupik shelter and the outside world, so to speak.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In that same shelter, did they have a phone link as well?

12 A. That's what I'm talking about. That's the only thing there was;

13 there was a phone link which the officers used to communicate. That's the

14 extent of what I witnessed.

15 Q. Was that just an ordinary phone link or a special phone link?

16 After all, you worked with this institution which I'll avoid mentioning

17 now.

18 A. I didn't really focus on that. I didn't need to focus on that.

19 Q. Was there a different kind of link in addition to this telephone

20 link between the MUP members, who were in the same shelter as you, linking

21 them to a third party?

22 A. I think they had Motorolas; you know, those mobile radio stations.

23 Q. Did you at any time use this radio equipment or the Motorolas from

24 the shelter?

25 A. I personally didn't.

Page 4106

1 Q. Did you listen to any conversations that the MUP members staying

2 in the shelter were having over the radio link or Motorola?

3 A. Yes, on several occasions, but I wasn't really paying close

4 attention. I didn't even like to listen to their conversations. I no

5 longer worked in the same profession as they and I was no longer as

6 interested, not interested enough to listen.

7 Q. You answered a previous question by saying that you did not know

8 the exact number of police officers who came to the Vupik shelter.

9 A. No, I don't know the exact number.

10 Q. Can you remember the exact date in relation to your departure for

11 the hospital? When did they come there in relation to your departure for

12 the field hospital?

13 A. About ten days earlier. I believe that's what I stated.

14 Q. You said that people from the hospital used to come to the

15 shelter; Dr. Bosanac in particular. Isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Throughout the ten days -- or rather, maybe I should ask how

18 often?

19 A. I believe I said I saw her twice.

20 Q. Did you ever hear of Dr. Matos?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did he come to the shelter?

23 A. I didn't see him.

24 Q. In your statement you said that soldiers and policemen came to the

25 shelter to keep you informed. I'm interested, why did they come to you,

Page 4107

1 or do you know whether those policemen and soldiers went to some other

2 shelters to inform some other people as to what was going on?

3 A. Since some family members of certain defenders of Vukovar were

4 there - for example, I mentioned the wife and the 2-month-old baby -

5 people used to drop by, and of course we were interested in the events and

6 what was going on outside. That's how we were kept informed, by what they

7 could tell us as to what was going on in the outside world.

8 Q. Among the people who -- from the MUP who came to the hospital --

9 to the shelter, was one of them Stipe Pole?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The name of Ivo Arbanas, does it tell you anything?

12 A. I heard of that person.

13 Q. Can you tell us what it was that you heard.

14 A. I heard he was a defender in the town of Vukovar.

15 Q. All right. You mentioned that when Dr. Bosanac would come around

16 to the shelter and through the -- your conversations with police members,

17 that it was that way you learned that she was negotiating with the JNA.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How often did you ever hear such conversations? Did you hear the

20 contents, and do you know what was the topic of those negotiations?

21 A. I said she came twice - at least, I saw her twice - and they

22 always discussed these negotiations. What I heard was that the

23 negotiations were going rather well and that things would be fine.

24 Q. Apart from Dr. Bosanac, who else participated in the negotiations?

25 As I presume that if she wanted to discuss anything with anyone, she could

Page 4108

1 have chosen any particular location, hence she may have been joined by

2 someone else in the shelter.

3 A. Marijan -- Marin Vidic, Bili, accompanied her.

4 Q. Do you know why it was that they came to your particular shelter

5 and why did they negotiate from your shelter?

6 A. I don't think they were conducting any negotiations from there.

7 They came to inform or, rather, coordinate with the police commander in

8 Vukovar, who was there.

9 Q. That is what I was interested in. Since you made that conclusion

10 that she wanted to speak with the commander of the police, do you know

11 what it was they spoke about?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Do you know anything as to the contents of the evacuation

14 agreement? Since you learned that the negotiations were going well, do

15 you know what was inside or part of the agreement?

16 A. That there were going to be around 50 buses and that people will

17 be allowed to go where they went, depending on their own wish, and that

18 the city would be handed over, and that there would be no problems.

19 Q. Did you overhear that in one of the conversations or were you told

20 that by anyone in the shelter; perhaps by Dr. Bosanac?

21 A. No, I overheard their conversation.

22 Q. Do you know whether there has been an agreement to complete the

23 negotiations process? Has anything been signed anywhere?

24 A. I have never seen any such thing and I never heard of it.

25 Q. For how long have you known Dr. Bosanac, and how well?

Page 4109

1 A. I've known her for a few years now -- that is, I had known her for

2 a few years before the war. She used to be a paediatrician and she

3 treated my children.

4 Q. And that was your only contact with her?

5 A. Absolutely so.

6 Q. By the way, do you know anything of Dr. Bosanac's husband, what he

7 was doing?

8 A. His name was Lavoslav, and he was a construction engineer with the

9 construction department of the Borovo company.

10 Q. During the events in question, do you know what his activities

11 were?

12 A. Throughout my time in Vukovar, I did not see him.

13 Q. Do you know what happened with Dr. Bosanac's sons?

14 A. No.

15 Q. To go back to the shelter, in one part of your statement and in

16 your testimony here you said that after you left to the hospital you also

17 went to a few other shelters to tell people to go to the hospital.

18 A. It wasn't me. We sent some other people to tell others to go to

19 the hospital. It wasn't me personally.

20 Q. So who decided to send those people over and with what task?

21 A. No one made any decision. It was a spontaneous thing to do, to

22 tell those people to come to the hospital to be in greater numbers. We

23 thought that there was security in numbers.

24 Q. Do you know anything about the events of the 18th of November,

25 1991, in Vukovar, specifically did you know that the so-called Croatian

Page 4110

1 army at Mitnica surrendered on that day?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you know that, together with those people, a large number of

4 civilians from Mitnica surrendered?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know where those civilians used to be accommodated? Where

7 were they?

8 A. Since that part of the town at Mitnica is uneven and there were

9 numerous cellars, private cellars, as well as rather large houses, I

10 believe those people were in those cellars throughout.

11 Q. That was up to the 18th, but I was interested in where were they

12 after they came out of those cellars?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Do you know whether those people were at Velepromet?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. You said you came to the Vukovar Hospital on the 15th.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that you stayed there until the 19th.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You said that the number of civilians was constantly increasing.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know where all of them came from?

23 A. I don't know. I hope it was from the town of the -- of Vukovar

24 and from the environs of the hospital.

25 Q. Are you certain about that?

Page 4111

1 A. I believe it was like that.

2 Q. You mentioned the number of such civilians. If you agree, there

3 were about 2500 people?

4 A. In my estimate, yes.

5 Q. Could that mean that there were more?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. You would agree that it put a lot of pressure on the hospital?

8 A. Yes, certainly.

9 Q. Can you tell us when most of the civilians came to the hospital?

10 A. On the 18th.

11 Q. Can you tell us where those civilians were accommodated at the

12 hospital, because 2500 is a large number.

13 A. The hospital is rather big, and there was the old building of the

14 hospital. People used all available space where they felt safe or even

15 where they did not feel so safe. They were everywhere.

16 Q. If I understood properly, there were some in the old hospital

17 building as well?

18 A. Yes. There were cellars there as well.

19 Q. In that period between the 15th and the 19th of November, 1991,

20 when you were at the hospital, you were not in the same place throughout

21 the four days, I presume.

22 A. No, of course. I walked around the hospital where my wife was,

23 together with my friends.

24 Q. I presume your wife and your friends were in different parts of

25 the hospital.

Page 4112

1 A. No, we were together in the same group; that was the group from

2 the shelter.

3 Q. Did you meet any of the hospital employees that you knew from

4 before? For example, Dr. Njavro?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Then Dr. Bosanac?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you discuss anything with them? Did any of the people near

9 you speak to them?

10 A. We had questions. Basically, the only question we had was how

11 things would conclude, what would happen to us.

12 Q. You were present during some conversations between Dr. Bosanac and

13 another person in the shelter on the 15th. Then you saw her between the

14 15th and the 19th in the hospital. You asked her about what was to happen

15 with all of you, and you must have discussed this with some other

16 civilians as well. So what was your conclusion as to what was to happen?

17 A. I never spoke with Dr. Bosanac alone. There were many people

18 around. They all spoke with her. We all wanted to know and demanded to

19 be told what the result of the talks were and what was to happen. The

20 constant answer was, as I described, was that there were to be buses and

21 that people are supposed to express their wish as to where to go to. That

22 was the standard reply circulating the hospital, and it resounded in

23 everyone's ears.

24 Q. On the 18th in the evening, since that was the day before your

25 departure from the hospital, did you hear in any part of the hospital or

Page 4113

1 from anybody that any sort of agreement had been signed concerning

2 evacuation?

3 A. No.

4 Q. In your discussions either with Dr. Bosanac or with Mr. Bilic or

5 with any of the passers-by, people you spoke with, did you hear of an

6 agreement being reached and that it should include only the wounded and

7 the hospital employees?

8 A. I believe I was sufficiently clear before when I said that we

9 heard that all the people are to leave Vukovar, depending on where they

10 wanted to go. As concerns this agreement that would encompass only the

11 wounded, I've never heard of such a thing.

12 Q. Did you ever hear Dr. Bosanac say to the civilians that they are

13 to go to Velepromet because an evacuation of civilians was supposed to be

14 carried out from there?

15 A. I never heard her say that.

16 Q. Did you hear that from anyone else?

17 A. Yes. I heard Mr. Sljivancanin say that when he came to the

18 hospital.

19 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we move into

20 private session?

21 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4114











11 Page 4114 redacted. Private session.















Page 4115

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

6 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Let's go back to your meeting with the JNA officers who you claim

8 you saw on the 19th of November inside the hospital. But before we go

9 there, there's something else I want to ask you. On the 19th of November,

10 did you see any TV crews, a cameraman, at the hospital?

11 A. I didn't.

12 Q. You're talking about the arrival of the JNA representatives, and

13 you're talking about the fact that you saw my client, Mr. Sljivancanin, at

14 this time. Can you please describe a little more closely where you saw

15 him, how you saw him, were there any soldiers around him, and if so, how

16 many. That sort of thing.

17 A. At one time in the afternoon a man appeared on the stairs wearing

18 a camouflage uniform, a green one, with a handful of people. I didn't

19 really count them at the time. He was tall, dark, good-looking.

20 Everything became quiet as he introduced himself: I am Major

21 Sljivancanin. You will now all be taken to Velepromet, and that's where

22 the separation will take place, as previously agreed. That was all.

23 There were a handful of soldiers with him, but I'd be hard-put to say how

24 many exactly. I was in no mind to count or to focus on anything else with

25 the exception of Mr. Sljivancanin himself.

Page 4116

1 Q. Did anyone react to Mr. Sljivancanin's words to indicate that

2 there was a different interpretation or that a different plan had been

3 agreed?

4 A. People just started saying things out loud of their own accord,

5 just like that, spontaneously, but that had no effect on the situation

6 whatsoever.

7 Q. Can you remember what exactly Mr. Sljivancanin was wearing?

8 A. He was wearing a green camouflage uniform, and the cap was

9 standard issue. We used to refer to it as Tito's cap.

10 Q. While you were in the army you probably encountered situations

11 where you familiarised yourself with the different ranks. Did you notice

12 Mr. Sljivancanin's rank?

13 A. It never even occurred to me to check his rank. He said it

14 himself after all as he introduced himself.

15 Q. Do you expressly remember him introducing himself as

16 "Sljivancanin," the last name of Sljivancanin?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This was on the 19th; more specifically, in the afternoon hours of

19 the 19th?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Sir, on the 15th of May, 1992, you gave a statement to the police

22 administration of Vukovar, you gave a statement to an authorised official

23 whose name I will not mention since it is of no relevance to us. You were

24 asked to describe some of the things that had happened in Vukovar. What I

25 want to know is: Were you asked to speak about the arrival of the JNA at

Page 4117

1 the Vukovar Hospital?

2 A. No, not as far as I remember. That wasn't one of the things

3 asked.

4 Q. In that statement - I'm not sure if you have a copy in front of

5 you; if not, I'd be glad to provide you with a copy to look at - although

6 you have described to us that you had a verbal conversation with this

7 authorised official, after which a note was compiled. I can read it back

8 for you, if you like, but please just tell me if that reminds you, by any

9 chance, of the conversation between you and this authorised official about

10 what had gone on at the hospital. The note reads: "On the 19th of

11 November, 1991, at about 1800 hours, tall JNA officers arrived within the

12 hospital compound, high-ranking JNA officers arrived in the hospital

13 compound or outside the cellar and started issuing orders for men to go to

14 one side and women and children to the other side."

15 Do you remember saying anything like this to the authorised

16 official talking to you on the 15th of May, 1992, in Zagreb?

17 A. I don't think I could possibly have said because that just wasn't

18 the way it happened.

19 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry. I do object again. The procedure is

20 perfectly straightforward and will help all parties.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Are you saying the document should be given to the

22 witness at this point?

23 MR. MOORE: Yes. If a witness is going to be cross-examined on a

24 document, he must be given the document.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, it may be useful for that to happen;

Page 4118

1 it's not a must.

2 Mr. Bulatovic, you do seem to be getting down into detail of

3 what's in the statement, and I think in fairness to the witness, if that's

4 the line that your questioning is to take, he ought to have an opportunity

5 to refresh his recollection of what was in the statement. So if you're

6 pressing on with your question, the witness should see the document.

7 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I fully understand

8 what you are suggesting; however, I'm afraid the OTP fails to understand.

9 This is precisely what I'm talking about. It's not that the witness said

10 this; I was just reminding him of this conversation he had with an

11 authorised official. That's just what I was asking the witness, whether

12 he remembered saying anything like this. This is a statement signed by

13 this -- if this was a statement signed by this witness, then I would, no

14 doubt, be showing the witness this statement. But he told me that he

15 never said any such thing to the authorised official compiling this

16 statement. I see no point in confronting the witness with this, but that

17 should prove no problem at all if there is enough time. But that is what

18 the objection seems to be about, and I'll ask the witness about other

19 things from that statement, in which case I would like the usher's

20 assistance to please hand the official note to the witness.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

22 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. As the official note, paragraph 3, reads: "The 19th of November."

24 A. I see that, yes.

25 Q. Have a look, please. My question: Is this what you spoke about

Page 4119

1 to that authorised official?

2 A. As I've already stated, I didn't speak to that authorised official

3 about this.

4 Q. What about paragraph 1 of this official note which you have in

5 front of you. It reads: "From the beginning of the aggression of the JNA

6 and the Serb extremists against the city of Vukovar, I was actively

7 involved in the defence as a member of the civil protection until the

8 resistance of the town's defenders was finally broken."

9 Is this something that you spoke to the authorised official about?

10 A. It's difficult now to remember what we talked about verbally.

11 What he wrote down was his own choice.

12 Q. This is something you were asked by the OTP yesterday. He

13 mentions some of the names on page 2, suggesting that you spoke to this

14 authorised official about these persons listed in the official note -- or

15 rather, tell me: If you spoke to this authorised official about them, how

16 exactly did you speak to the authorised official about them?

17 A. I just listed the names of people I had noticed at Velepromet and

18 Vupik as well as some details about two or three of them. As for the rest

19 of what this says, it's not something that I stated myself.

20 Q. You testified yesterday and there was an objection raised by my

21 learned friend, Borovic, about a particular name. You mentioned some

22 names, but what's added here and what we see next to the names as some

23 activities that those people did --

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the last part of

25 counsel's question.

Page 4120

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I said was those people were in

2 uniform and armed. As for the rest, I didn't say any of that.


4 Q. You probably mentioned these people because they had some

5 distinguishing features. You remembered them because of something that

6 had happened at Velepromet and the hospital, didn't you?

7 A. Most of these people were people I knew well. Some of them were

8 even my friends or acquaintances.

9 Q. Can you please explain why back in 1991 you did not mention to

10 this authorised official the JNA officer, Veselin Sljivancanin, as a

11 person who appeared at the hospital, introducing himself, and he seems to

12 play quite an important role there, based on your further testimony.

13 A. There was this conversation between me and the authorised

14 official, and it's quite natural that omissions should have been made.

15 Maybe he didn't ask, maybe I didn't remember. That's how it was. It was

16 probably an oversight on my part or on his part. To sum it up,

17 Mr. Sljivancanin was not mentioned. I might have said it, but he just

18 failed to record it; that's also possible. What he eventually wrote down

19 was a different thing altogether.

20 Q. I asked you a while ago and you clearly said that you never

21 discussed this at all. I showed you paragraph 3 of the official note,

22 which speaks about the arrival of JNA officers, and you said you never

23 discussed that at all.

24 A. No. I didn't discuss that at all with this particular authorised

25 official.

Page 4121

1 Q. Thank you very much. In your statement to the OTP you speak about

2 the fact that you saw people from the ECMM and other international

3 organisations, both at Velepromet and at the hospital.

4 A. No; just at the hospital.

5 Q. Speaking about the hospital, where exactly did you see the

6 representatives, and what were they doing?

7 A. When I emerged from the hospital I was standing on the steps

8 outside and there were two people in white overcoats standing there,

9 talking to Mr. Sljivancanin. They were discussing something -- or rather,

10 I don't know what it was that they were saying, but I clearly heard what

11 Mr. Sljivancanin said to them. They were standing near the steps outside

12 the hospital entrance.

13 Q. What time was it, can you perhaps remember that?

14 A. No, unfortunately, I can't.

15 Q. Can you remember how long the conversation took?

16 A. It was a very short conversation. I turned around and left. They

17 may as well have gone on with their conversation, but I no longer noticed.

18 Q. You say that you heard Mr. Sljivancanin say something. What did

19 you hear him say to this representative of an international organisation?

20 A. His voice was raised and he told this person: Go back to your own

21 country if you want to order people about. I'm the one in charge here.

22 Q. Did you at any time before or after this see these same

23 representatives of the international ...

24 A. I never saw them again.

25 Q. My apologies. Did you perhaps see any TV crews anywhere around

Page 4122

1 filming?

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 Q. You say you didn't see the representatives of international

4 organisations at Velepromet?

5 A. No, I didn't.

6 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

7 please. I would like to show the witness his own statement which he gave

8 on the 19th of June, 1995. Can the witness please have a look. Just in

9 order to save time, this is page 5 of the B/C/S.

10 Q. Have you got that, Witness?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where it says: "I saw people from the ICRC"?

13 A. Yes, I see that.

14 Q. Can you read out that sentence, please.

15 A. "I saw people from the ICRC at the hospital and at Velepromet."

16 That is indeed what it says, but the fact is I did not see those people at

17 Velepromet.

18 Q. Thank you. When you arrived at Velepromet you say you did not see

19 any JNA people there. Is that correct?

20 A. I didn't see any. Not at Velepromet, at Vupik.

21 Q. My understanding is Vupik is just across the way. Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In your statement you suggest that you assume that the JNA

24 soldiers were in the centre of town at that time.

25 A. Yes, that was an assumption on my part.

Page 4123

1 Q. Well, can you please explain what these mean to you: A member of

2 the JNA, a reservist, a TO member, and eventually a paramilitary belonging

3 to none of the aforementioned categories.

4 A. My apologies.

5 Q. That's no trouble at all. You held a number of posts which I

6 imagine would enable you to make these important distinctions.

7 A. As far as I know, the regular JNA, the former JNA, were

8 professional officers and conscripts serving their military term at the

9 time. That is what I would describe as the regular JNA forces, or the

10 former JNA, if you like. All the others were, in my opinion,

11 paramilitaries, persons who joined different kinds of military units and

12 organisations.

13 Q. Along these same lines, did Croatia at the time have a regular

14 army of its own that would meet the criteria that you seem to be

15 espousing?

16 A. I don't think it did.

17 Q. I'm not sure if you know this. You may have been asked before, in

18 which case I have to apologise: What about members of the so-called HOS;

19 were they involved in the fighting in and around Vukovar?

20 A. I've been asked that before, and I clearly stated I didn't see

21 them anywhere.

22 Q. My apologies in that case. In your statement and in the official

23 note you mentioned quite a number of names. There's one name that I'm

24 particularly interested in. My learned friend Mr. Domazet asked you about

25 this person. I'm talking about Mr. Zigic. You said something about him,

Page 4124

1 what he was, what he did, who he was.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What I want to know is: Did you ever see him wear a military

4 uniform before 1991?

5 A. Never. He was a senior inspector with the MUP; that's all he was.

6 Q. Can we then draw a joint conclusion that we both agree on, that he

7 was no regular member of the JNA. He must have been a member of some TO

8 or paramilitary unit then.

9 A. I don't believe that he was a regular JNA member.

10 Q. After Velepromet, did you ever see this man by the name of Zigic

11 again?

12 A. Yes, at Mitrovica where we were in prison.

13 Q. Can you tell me how long you stayed there. At Mitrovica, I mean.

14 A. Four months.

15 Q. Were you subsequently exchanged?

16 A. Prior to that I was in Stajicevo, another camp, for one and a half

17 months, and then I was exchanged in May.

18 Q. So first you went to Stajicevo and then from Stajicevo you went to

19 Mitrovica?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I'll ask you about this name: Marko Crevar. Does that mean

22 anything to you?

23 A. Marko Crevar, that definitely rings a bell. I can't remember

24 right now specifically.

25 Q. Do you perhaps remember that you saw another person with Zigic at

Page 4125

1 Velepromet?

2 A. Yes, the only person I saw nearby was Dr. Maric, but I did not

3 notice anyone else.

4 Q. In answer to one of the questions by my learned friend from the

5 OTP you said that you also knew Stanislav Avramovic, aka Micko?

6 A. Indeed I do.

7 Q. What do you know about him?

8 A. He was just a regular guy, but he was a great football player. He

9 worked at Vuteks with my wife.

10 Q. This man by the name of Avramovic, aka Micko, was he in touch with

11 Martin Dosen?

12 A. They were close friends, at least as far as I know, but that was

13 before the war.

14 Q. Just in order to -- my apologies -- what I said before -- let me

15 just refresh your memory, perhaps, by telling you, this person I asked you

16 about, Marko Crevar, did he work for the Vukovar SUP? Does that mean

17 anything to you?

18 A. I don't know that or if Marko Crevar worked for the Vukovar SUP.

19 Q. Have you ever heard of Tomo Gipser, Tomo the plaster technician?

20 A. Unfortunately, he applied a cast to my leg, so yes, I do know him.

21 Q. Do you know what became of him?

22 A. I heard that he had disappeared.

23 Q. Where did he disappear from; do you know that?

24 A. I don't know where from, but rumour has it that he disappeared.

25 Q. In the statement you gave to that authorised official, the note

Page 4126

1 which you have in front of you, you mentioned a person by the name of

2 Radivoje Jakovljevic.

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. You say he came to visit.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Radivoje Jakovljevic, does he bear any relation to Tomo Gipser?

7 A. I think they are father and son.

8 Q. Did you talk to this Radivoje Jakovljevic or did you see him?

9 A. I just saw him. I think he took a young man away from Stajicevo.

10 I don't know where to, but I later found out that the young man now lives

11 in Australia; in other words, he's still alive.

12 Q. Let me ask you this: Are you familiar with the existence of a

13 shelter at Borovo Komerc?

14 A. Everyone knows about that one, don't they.

15 Q. Do you know who was in charge of that shelter, or in command,

16 whatever you want to call it?

17 A. I was never there throughout the war in Vukovar, and I have no

18 idea who was in charge of that shelter.

19 Q. Do you know anything to indicate that Vesna Bosanac's husband was

20 there?

21 A. I don't know. I did say a while ago that I heard nothing about

22 him throughout.

23 Q. Yesterday, while using that sketch, you traced your route from

24 Vupik to Velepromet, if I am not mistaken.

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 4127

1 Q. You say the sketch was made for you by a friend. What I want to

2 know is: Why was this sketch made to begin with? For what purpose?

3 A. I asked to have this made because I wanted to get an idea of where

4 this all occurred. We have some sort of a memorial service annually at

5 Velepromet, so it was a spontaneous request on my part. I asked him to do

6 this for me so that I could look at it and remember more clearly where the

7 buildings and the hangars were, the layout of the Vupik compound, so that

8 one day I am able to share this with my grandchildren and o tell them:

9 This is where your granddad was.

10 Q. And you shared this with the OTP as well, didn't you?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Did you have any photographs to share, by any chance?

13 Photographs in relation to this area in which you were kept.

14 A. I still have three photographs at home, photographs of Velepromet.

15 Q. Provided by who?

16 A. It was a long time ago. I no longer remember who supplied them.

17 Q. Let us now go back to Velepromet and everything that you have

18 described. I'm talking about your arrival at Velepromet from Vupik. You

19 were brought to a spot which you marked with a letter C on that sketch.

20 Do you remember that, with Boro Rizvanovic who brought you there?

21 A. That was outside the carpenter's room, which was later renamed the

22 death room.

23 Q. Yes. Now, if you keep all these different things in mind - Vupik,

24 the hospital, staying there for a while, the bus ride - how long did the

25 whole thing take, how many hours?

Page 4128

1 A. It took quite a while, the entire afternoon and evening.

2 Q. So the evening was followed by night. Right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was there any public illumination in that area?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When asked by my learned friend Ms. Tapuskovic you testified that

7 you saw Capalo passing by and you said you were 99 per cent --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You testified in a trial taking place before the district court in

10 Belgrade by videolink on the 24th of May, 2005. You were asked by the

11 president of the chamber in charge of the trial about various persons --

12 about various persons you saw on that day. Some of them you've mentioned

13 here. He asked you specifically about Milan Vojinovic [phoen], aka

14 Capalo. Do you remember that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to

17 put an audio transcript from the trial before the war crimes chamber on

18 the 24th of May, 2005, to put before the witness. In B/C/S, that's page

19 10/21.

20 My apologies. I don't know whether the OTP has managed to locate

21 the portion I intend to quote, since I don't have the English version with

22 me. I would kindly ask the witness to read aloud slowly from page 10

23 towards the bottom.

24 Q. It states there: "Witness -" and I will not mention your name,

25 and the last sentence. Could you read it aloud.

Page 4129

1 A. The last line: "I saw Capalo at Velepromet."

2 Q. Does this refresh your memory about mentioning Capalo when you

3 testified before the war crimes chamber in Belgrade?

4 A. I just replied to their questions, as recorded here.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

7 cross-examination. I would like to thank the witness, and I have no

8 further questions.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Bulatovic.

10 Mr. Moore.

11 Re-examination by Mr. Moore:

12 Q. Witness, would you be kind enough to go to the transcript that's

13 just been cited to you by the Defence. In the English version it is page

14 14 of 28 for the translation that I have, and my B/C/S is not quite up to

15 speed, so I can't tell the page for that.

16 MR. MOORE: Is that the same page that my learned friend is

17 referring to? Because I do have: "I saw Capalo at Velepromet."

18 Can I just clarify if the witness now has got a B/C/S version of

19 that question. I notice my learned friend is saying "yes."

20 Q. You're asked -- have you got that, Witness, that particular

21 reference to the question?

22 A. Yes, I do. I have it.

23 Q. The first question that I have got, and just above that, is

24 president of the committee.

25 "A. No, there is also Capalo, but he died."

Page 4130

1 Do you have that part?

2 A. Yes, I have it.

3 Q. And then the next question, I think it's a question my learned

4 friend referred to in cross-examination. You say: "I saw Capalo in

5 Velepromet." Is that the same place that's being referred to? Is that

6 right, Witness, or not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you very much. And then the next question is from the

9 president of the committee: "Do you know any other Vojinovic, Milan?"

10 Do you see that?

11 A. Yes, I see that.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Were you ever asked by anyone what you saw

13 Capalo doing or carrying that evening? Just look at that, please.

14 A. No, never, no one.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Can we just put that away, please.

16 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour forgive me a moment while I just

17 locate some papers.


19 MR. MOORE: Can I just clarify from my learned friends, in

20 relation to the allegation by the Prosecution that Sljivancanin was

21 telling people that they were to be taken to Velepromet and to be

22 separated there, is that accepted by my learned friend that that occurred?

23 Because if it isn't accepted, I will deal with it in re-examination. That

24 was never put in direct terms, whether they agreed or did not agree that

25 that was the case. Could they assist me on that, please.

Page 4131

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Bulatovic.

2 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. The very

3 fact that there were -- questions were asked of the witness by the Defence

4 I believe makes it clear that we cannot accept that, and our questions

5 were put precisely in that direction, to deny that.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. That's made the position clear.

7 Yes, Mr. Moore.

8 MR. MOORE: Thank you.

9 Q. So you understand, what is being suggested to you, Witness, by the

10 Defence, what they're saying is that you didn't see Sljivancanin outside

11 the hospital on the evening of the 19th, and that he didn't tell people to

12 be -- to go to Velepromet and be separated. Now, what do you say to that

13 suggestion? Do you agree with that or not?

14 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Bulatovic.

16 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe my learned friend of the

17 OTP misinterpreted the words of the Defence. We never disputed

18 Mr. Sljivancanin's presence on the 19th in the afternoon in front of the

19 hospital; therefore, it cannot be seen as such. And as regards the other

20 fact, I just stated my opinion as to what, in our estimate,

21 Mr. Sljivancanin was doing and who was with him.

22 MR. MOORE: In my submission, the witness is entitled to know

23 whether, in actual fact, the Defence are saying that Sljivancanin said to

24 witnesses -- or said to people there that they were to go to Velepromet,

25 and that's where the separation occurred.

Page 4132

1 JUDGE PARKER: As I understood it, that is not accepted by the

2 Defence.

3 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE PARKER: His presence at the hospital is accepted.

5 MR. MOORE: Well, perhaps I can clarify it then this way.

6 Q. Witness, are you aware that the Defence do not accept that you

7 heard Sljivancanin telling people they were going to go to Velepromet and

8 be separated? Now, what do you say to that? Did you hear Sljivancanin

9 say that or not?

10 A. I claim full responsibility that he did and said what I stated.

11 Q. Was there any importance to you and other people there that such a

12 statement was made?

13 A. It was very important.

14 Q. Why was it important --

15 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Bulatovic.

17 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe this will be a textbook

18 example of a leading question, because it comprises an element of reply.

19 MR. MOORE: Well, I submit, we're reading different textbooks. I

20 would submit that --

21 JUDGE PARKER: Your question is in order, Mr. Moore.

22 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

23 Q. Why was it important to you?

24 A. Because we were hoping to leave the hospital for the direction

25 desired, as we were informed. But according to what Mr. Sljivancanin had

Page 4133

1 to say, there was another plan or another order, and we were deeply struck

2 by that.

3 Q. You were asked about the report that was compiled on the 15th of

4 May, 1992. Now, do you have that document -- document before you? And if

5 not, perhaps could you be shown the document, please.

6 MR. MOORE: Well, I'm told there's no hard copy, but there is an

7 e-court edition, and the number is 03577927. Your Honour, I'm told

8 actually we have now found a hard copy in B/C/S, and often people find

9 that easier. May I pass that to the witness, please?


11 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

12 Q. Now, what I would like you to do, please, is here we have got a

13 report and you have told us about the way you believe it was compiled. I

14 don't want to go into that again. And what's being suggested to you is --

15 well, why no mention of Mr. Sljivancanin's name. Do you understand?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Can we just look through this document slowly, because your

18 evidence in cross-examination was -- well, you were asked various

19 questions and you gave names in reply. Is that right?

20 A. That is right.

21 Q. Can we just go through the document, then, please. Now, I cannot

22 correlate the various paragraphs and pages because they're not numbered,

23 but if I do it in a general way, is it right that in actual fact in this

24 document there are something approaching 38 names given by you of people

25 you recognised? Just have a look at it, please. Take your time and just

Page 4134

1 check.

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. And the names that you gave, were they people that you knew

4 personally?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. And what was the purpose of giving these names in this particular

7 report?

8 A. I was asked that by the interviewer. The question was: Who was

9 it that I saw in the hospital at Velepromet and at Vupik, that is.

10 Q. But the question was: Were these people that you knew personally?

11 You knew their names?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I have no further re-examination, but I

15 would make application that this particular report, which was compiled on

16 the 15th of May, 1992, be made an exhibit.

17 JUDGE PARKER: On what basis, Mr. Moore?

18 MR. MOORE: On the basis that there has been cross-examination

19 that the omission of the name of Sljivancanin is a factor that the Court

20 should take into account indicating, I suspect, that the name

21 "Sljivancanin" only arose in the 1995 document and presumably was a

22 subsequent creation. In my submission, the purpose of putting this

23 document before the Court is the Court would be able to assess by its

24 content and context and the structure of the document what the purpose was

25 in respect of its compilation.

Page 4135

1 JUDGE PARKER: So you do not propose it be received as proof of

2 its content?

3 MR. MOORE: I do not.

4 JUDGE PARKER: But for the purpose of assessing the credibility

5 witness in relation.

6 MR. MOORE: I do.

7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit 190 under seal.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

10 Sir, you will be pleased to know that that concludes the questions

11 of you, so that in a few moments when we rise you will be able to leave

12 the court and return to your home. The Chamber would thank you for coming

13 to The Hague and for the assistance that you've given us.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE PARKER: We're in a position to resume with another witness,

16 are we, Mr. Moore, after the break?

17 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, yes. The next witness is a protected

18 witness, and Mr. Smith will be dealing with that witness.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn now and resume at --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

23 JUDGE PARKER: -- 20 minutes to the hour.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

Page 4136

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11 Pages 4137-4156 redacted. Closed session.















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4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day of

6 February, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.