Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4863

1 Thursday, 23 February 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Would you please stand?

7 Would you please read the affirmation on the card that is offered

8 to you now.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.

12 Mr. Moore.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. The next witness deals with the

16 hospital, the JNA barracks, return to the hospital, and in relation to

17 various people who ended up at Ovcara.

18 Examination by Mr. Moore:

19 Q. Witness, what is your full name, please?

20 A. My name is Vilhelm, Rudolf.

21 Q. And I think it's right to say that you live in Vukovar; is that

22 right?

23 A. I live in Vukovar. I have a wife and two children.

24 Q. I think if I may just tease you slightly, it's an area, I think,

25 that's known as the Hollywood of Vukovar; is that correct?

Page 4864

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I think it's right to say you have never given evidence before.

3 This is your first time before a court?

4 A. The first time. I have never been convicted, and this is the

5 first time I am testifying.

6 Q. Thank you very much. And what is your ethnicity?

7 A. I am an ethnic Croat.

8 Q. I would like to ask you some questions, please, about November

9 1991. The Court have heard a great deal of evidence about the run-up in

10 time through August, September, October, November of 1991, and I don't

11 want to deal with any details there. Can I deal, please, with your

12 leaving your home and going to the Vukovar Hospital? So can we start with

13 your evidence at that particular time? Do you follow?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I think it's right to say that you went to the hospital on the

16 17th of November. Is that right or not?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And why did you go to the hospital?

19 A. The Chetniks were coming from all directions. My wife worked at

20 the hospital. Several days prior to me going to the hospital, we were in

21 a basement in one of Velepromet warehouses. I came to the hospital on

22 the 17th in the evening.

23 Q. Thank you very much. And who did you go to the hospital with?

24 A. I went with my wife.

25 Q. And when you went to the hospital, what were the conditions like

Page 4865

1 at that time?

2 A. There was shelling, the city was destroyed, the patients and the

3 wounded were in the corridors of the hospital. My wife and I went to a

4 part of the basement where there was a nun with Dr. Kolak and young

5 children who were patients.

6 Q. Could I just ask you to speak a little more slowly? Because it

7 makes it much easier for the interpreter. Is that all right, you can do

8 that?

9 A. [In English] Okay.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Now, can you remember when the JNA or

11 paramilitaries first came to the hospital?

12 A. They came for the first time on the 19th in the evening; however,

13 I didn't see them, I only heard this. I saw them myself on the 20th in

14 the morning.

15 Q. Can we deal with the morning of the 20th, please? What did you

16 see or who did you see arrive?

17 A. I was in the basement where the children were. I was somewhere in

18 the middle of the basement. I heard them say that the soldiers were

19 saying that all of us had to go out.

20 Q. And did you eventually go outside?

21 A. My wife went to the meeting. Since she was a physician, she went

22 to this meeting with all other medical staff. I stayed on for a bit

23 longer and after that I went out through the back door of the hospital.

24 Q. And who did you go out with?

25 A. I went out together with other people who were in the hospital.

Page 4866

1 Q. And what happened when you went outside by the back door?

2 A. When we went out by the back door, we saw soldiers there. They

3 lined us up against the wall to the left of the door. We had to put our

4 hands on our backs and they started searching us, and that's what

5 happened.

6 Q. When you went outside, did men and women remain together?

7 A. No. The men were separated to one side, and the women went to

8 another side.

9 Q. And was that a choice that they made, or they were told to line up

10 in that way?

11 A. I don't know that. This is how they ordered us.

12 Q. And who ordered whom?

13 A. The soldiers told us at the door to line up against the wall and

14 to put our hands up. They searched us to see if we had any weapons on us.

15 Q. Now, can I just deal with -- you said that men and women were

16 apart. I just want to deal with the men, if I may.

17 A. [No interpretation].

18 Q. When you went outside, were there any other men who were lined up

19 as well?

20 A. No. As they came through the door -- as we came through the door

21 we were told to line up against the wall.

22 Q. And how many people lined up, approximately? Over 100, less than

23 100? Are you able to say?

24 A. I can't say the exact number, but based on the fact that three or

25 four buses went to the barracks and each bus carried between 20 and 22

Page 4867

1 people, then I would say that the total number was between 80 and 90.

2 Q. Well, let's just deal with the buses for a moment. Did you get on

3 any bus at that time?

4 A. I was boarded on to the second bus in the way -- in the order that

5 they were lined towards the back door of the hospital, facing the

6 cemetery. I entered the second bus and went to the middle of it.

7 Q. Can I just deal with your bus?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When they had finished loading your bus how many people do you

10 think were on that bus?

11 A. About 20 to 22.

12 Q. And how many people would a bus normally hold?

13 A. I don't know what the capacity is of each bus, but roughly 20

14 to 25.

15 Q. So are you saying that the bus is almost full or not? Can you

16 just tell us how full the bus was?

17 A. Our bus was full. I don't know about other buses.

18 Q. Let's deal with your bus. Were there any women on your bus?

19 A. Not a single one.

20 Q. Did you recognise some of the people on your bus?

21 A. Yes, I did. The people who were with me on the bus, I knew some

22 of them because I was born in Vukovar.

23 Q. And of the people that you recognised, are you able to say what

24 ethnicity they were?

25 A. All of them were Croats.

Page 4868

1 Q. And again, if we deal with the bus, do you know if there were any

2 soldiers on your bus?

3 A. There was a soldier with a rifle at the door, and I'm not sure

4 about the driver, but I think that he also was in a military uniform.

5 Q. And if we deal with the soldier with a rifle, are you able to say

6 whether he was a regular soldier or what I will call paramilitary?

7 A. He was a regular soldier.

8 Q. And were you told why it was you were going on to the bus?

9 A. Nobody said anything to us. Simply once the buses were loaded, we

10 set out and drove through the centre of the town towards Vasariste or the

11 fair-grounds where the barracks was.

12 Q. Let us follow that drive, if we may. Did the buses, when the

13 buses were driven away from the hospital, did they stop again?

14 A. No. They didn't stop. They drove to the barracks.

15 Q. Now, the barracks, what barracks are they?

16 A. The one and only barracks, which is located at Vasariste, or the

17 fair-grounds. That's the only barracks that exist in Vukovar.

18 Q. By those barracks, do you mean JNA barracks or not?

19 A. Yes, the JNA barracks where the members of the army were, where

20 they served their military service.

21 Q. Now, can I just deal with time for one moment? Here you are, you

22 get on the bus at the hospital. It is then driven to the barracks and it

23 then stops at the barracks. How long do you think it was from getting on

24 your bus until you got to the barracks? I don't mean the drive; I mean

25 from the time that you actually got on and then ended up at the barracks.

Page 4869

1 Can you tell us? Approximately.

2 A. I wouldn't be able to say. I wouldn't be able to give you the

3 exact time.

4 Q. All right. Thank you, that's very kind. Can I then deal with the

5 people who were on the bus? I've already dealt with it in one way, but

6 were you able to recognise people on the bus by their names, or did you

7 know the names of some of the people on the bus?

8 A. I knew names of some people. In some cases I knew last names or

9 only first names. In Vukovar we typically know other people's last names.

10 Q. Shall we try the last names first and the first names last, shall

11 we do that? So dealing with the last names, can you tell us, please, some

12 of the last names of people that you recognised as being on your bus?

13 A. I recognised Lovro Barbir, Jakov Simunovic, and Sime Simunovic.

14 Jakov and Sime Simunovic. Medjesi, the father and the son. The son of

15 Pajo Djukic. I know his last name was Djukic. His father was a doctor.

16 And there was a Kolesar there as well. He was my neighbour.

17 Q. Do you know anyone called Adzaga?

18 A. I do know the person called Adzaga, he was returned to the

19 hospital once. We were sent from the barracks back to the hospital.

20 Q. And are you able to say if he was on your bus on the journey from

21 the hospital to the barracks?

22 A. Yes. He was at the hospital. He was with me. He went to the

23 hospital.

24 Q. You have told us you were going to deal with last and first names,

25 but is it right to say those are the only names of the people that you can

Page 4870

1 remember who were on the bus with you at that time?

2 A. I can also remember Josip Zelko whom I also saw on the bus which

3 was sent back to the hospital. There was another man, I don't know his

4 name, however, his wife worked with my wife, and he used to work for

5 Elektroslavonija, which is the electrical power utility company.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Can I just deal with the person called

7 Zeljko? Was he on the bus that travelled - may I just finish? - from the

8 hospital to the barracks or not?

9 A. I apologise. It's not Zeljko. It's Zelko, Z-e-l-k-o, Josip

10 Zelko. He was also on the bus. He was returned back to the hospital

11 together with me, and the rest were set free.

12 Q. But what I am trying to do is just deal with the people who were

13 on the bus who travelled from the hospital to the barracks. I just want

14 to deal with that trip for the moment. We'll deal with any other trips

15 later on.

16 So just focusing on the trip from the hospital to the barracks,

17 you've given us names. What about Zelko? Was he on the bus to the

18 barracks or not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. With regard to the arrival at the barracks, can you

21 remember if there were any other buses who were present at the barracks

22 when you arrived there?

23 A. I didn't see a single bus. I was on the second bus. I don't know

24 exactly how many buses there were, four or five. Those are the buses that

25 drove us from the hospital. They were parked in a semi-circle, one bus

Page 4871

1 behind the other one.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Now, can we just deal with those buses. You

3 say they were parked in a semi-circle, one behind the other. Can you

4 describe to the court what then happened outside the buses when you

5 arrived?

6 A. Once the buses arrived, about 10 to 12 soldiers and civilians

7 surrounded each bus. They lined up next to each bus, threatening, taking

8 out rifles and pistols, but not shooting.

9 Q. I just want to deal with those people who surrounded each bus.

10 Can we deal just with your bus? Now, when you were on the bus and you

11 arrived at the JNA barracks and you had these 10 to 12 people coming to

12 each bus, what effect did that have on you with them coming, threatening

13 and taking out rifles and pistols?

14 A. All of us were scared. We put our heads down. I don't know if

15 there is a single person who wouldn't be afraid if they saw a rifle or a

16 pistol pointed at them. All of us were terrified.

17 Q. Did anyone get on to the bus?

18 A. Not then. Initially nobody got on the bus.

19 Q. All right. Well, not initially, but did anybody then get on the

20 bus?

21 A. A list came from the hospital, a list of soldiers whose husbands

22 or some other family members worked at the hospital. They wanted their

23 husbands to be sent back to the hospital. The names were read out from

24 that list, and one by one these people transferred to another bus which

25 went to the hospital later on.

Page 4872

1 Q. We'll deal with the list in a moment. But can I just deal with

2 the persons that you say you saw outside, 10 to 12 people having rifles

3 and pistols. Did any of them get on to your bus?

4 A. When the list was completed, the soldiers got on the bus. While

5 we were getting on the bus, a gauntlet was formed so that they beat us on

6 our way to the bus and then also when we were already on the bus.

7 Q. Well, just before we get to the gauntlet, did you recognise any of

8 the -- either the civilians or the soldiers who were around the bus?

9 A. Yes. I recognised one of them. I also recognised one at the

10 reception desk. Since I know almost all people in Vukovar, I recognised

11 Vojnovic, Dule, nicknamed Robija. He is from Negoslavci, and he's not a

12 normal person.

13 Q. Well, let's just deal with him. I just want to deal with the bus,

14 please. I don't want to know about the reception desk. I just want to

15 deal with the bus, all right? Now, where did you see him when you were in

16 the bus?

17 A. Right in front of the bus. They were lined up parallel to the

18 bus.

19 Q. And the soldiers that you saw, are you able to say if they were

20 regular soldiers or irregular soldiers? Can you give us an indication of

21 the type of soldier they were?

22 A. Yes. Vojnovic was there, and there were reservists as well as

23 young soldiers. I used to be the warden of the prison in Trpinja so I can

24 tell who is a soldier, who's a sergeant and so on. I had a rank while I

25 served in the army, and I can recognise young conscripts. Young

Page 4873

1 conscripts are orderly. The reservists are older, they are not usually

2 clean shaven. And that's how it is.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Did Robija speak to you at any time?

4 A. Yes, he did. He said, "Ruca, are you an Ustasha too? You will

5 never again be able to fish on the banks of the Danube." I told him I

6 would be back one day but he will then be gone. And this precisely what

7 happened.

8 I thought he was a friend of mine. I used to play football in my

9 time. I play for Rijeka, Borovo and Dinamo Vinkovci. I gave him a hand

10 at the time. He was a pretty good football player himself. I made sure

11 he joined the Borovo club. I gave him his first football boots. I taught

12 him how to catch fish; I gave him my tackle. I had a boat made for him by

13 a friend of mine, and I never saw this coming. I never thought that I

14 would experience this at his hands.

15 Q. Can we just deal, then, with the list that you have mentioned? So

16 I just want to ask you questions about this list.

17 The list of names, do you know who was controlling the list at

18 that time?

19 A. I don't know that.

20 Q. And why do you not know that?

21 A. When I got on to the bus I was scared too. Kept my head down. I

22 wasn't exactly thinking about things like these, who controlled the list.

23 I was the first to get on the bus. I'm talking about the bus that was

24 sent back to the hospital.

25 Q. Now, is it right that you were then taken off the bus or not?

Page 4874

1 A. My name was called out and many others, too, who had previously

2 boarded the buses. We were made to run a gauntlet made up of Chetniks,

3 and people were beaten.

4 Q. When you say that you were made to run a gauntlet, can you in some

5 detail explain to the Court what you mean by "run a gauntlet"? Run a

6 gauntlet of whom?

7 A. I think both soldiers and reservists were there. They were

8 beating the people severely, those people who were trying to reach the

9 bus. They didn't beat me because I was the first to reach the bus, but I

10 was scared out of my wits, so I could hardly remember my own name.

11 Q. And what sort of items were they using to beat the people from the

12 bus or being transferred from bus A to another bus?

13 A. Outside the buses they beat us with whatever they could. They

14 kicked us, they hit us, they used their rifle-butts, that sort of thing.

15 On the bus they beat Kolesar and the two Simunovics, as far as I was able

16 to see. They were beating them on the head and wherever they could.

17 Q. Did you ever see any soldiers or officer or any person stop the

18 beatings of the individuals running through that gauntlet?

19 A. They were just watching and laughing. Nobody lifted a finger.

20 Q. You have told us about Kolesar. Now, can we just deal with

21 Kolesar? How was he beaten, please?

22 A. Kolesar was severely beaten. He said he was an ethnic Ruthenian

23 and that he had nothing to do with this war. And they said, "Yes, yes,

24 you get some too." And they hit him everywhere. They hit him over the

25 head and everywhere.

Page 4875

1 Q. And did you see any other person being severely beaten?

2 A. I didn't see the soldiers, because I was keeping my head down, but

3 I heard both Simunovics moaning and screaming.

4 Q. And were you able to hear any of the words being uttered by the

5 people who were being beaten?

6 A. The soldiers weren't saying anything at all. They just kept at

7 it. They were beating people. I didn't hear them say anything.

8 Q. Did you hear the people who were being beaten say anything?

9 A. They were crying for help. Moaning. Begging to not be beaten

10 anymore. I was scared myself. I didn't utter a word; maybe that was the

11 reason that I was not beaten. But they kept crying for help, they kept

12 saying things, and maybe that was all the more reason for those people to

13 go on beating them.

14 Q. You told us that you were the first person to arrive at what I

15 will call the new bus. How many people were transferred to that bus that

16 you went on to?

17 A. Roughly speaking, 16 or 17 people, the people who were to be sent

18 back to the hospital later on. But at this point we did not yet know

19 about that.

20 Q. Well, let's deal with those 16 or 17 people who go to this new

21 bus. You are at the JNA barracks, you are all on the bus, did it

22 eventually leave the barracks?

23 A. Yes, we left the barracks on the bus. We were inside the bus. We

24 left on the bus and the bus drove back to the hospital. It parked outside

25 the hospital.

Page 4876

1 Q. I want to deal now with your return to the hospital. All right?

2 A. That's fine.

3 Q. Thank you very much. When you arrived back at the hospital, did

4 you remain on the bus?

5 A. When we arrived back at the hospital we were ordered to get off

6 the bus and line up. Our wives were waiting for us, or whoever it was who

7 had told them to bring our people back to the hospital. We lined up at

8 the ready.

9 Q. And did you recognise any other people, apart from your family,

10 who were waiting for you?

11 A. I recognised the wives of Simunovic, Kolesar, and all those who

12 were waiting there for their husbands to be set free. Biba Kolesar lives

13 on my street. I know her well. Everybody was waiting for their own

14 husbands, sons or whoever was on that bus.

15 Q. You told us that you were ordered to get off the bus. Who ordered

16 you to get off the bus?

17 A. I don't know who did, but it must have been one of the soldiers, I

18 assume. Also because Major Sljivancanin was nearby.

19 Q. And did you know it was Major Sljivancanin and not some other

20 officer?

21 A. I had never seen this comrade, as they would say in the army, at

22 all. I first set eyes on him when I arrived in Zagreb. It was then I

23 first learned that the man's name was Sljivancanin. However, my wife had

24 begged him to help us, and she was the one who told me that that was

25 Sljivancanin.

Page 4877

1 Q. Are you able to describe to the Court the height of the man that

2 you say was Sljivancanin?

3 A. As tall as I am. Perhaps even taller, give or take an inch or

4 two. Thereabouts. He wore a moustache, a uniform, a cap.

5 Q. And when you saw this man that you call Sljivancanin, were there

6 any other soldiers with him?

7 A. He was with Miroljub Vujovic and Darko Kovacevic, a man better

8 known as Drko.

9 Q. And what way were they dressed?

10 A. Military uniform.

11 Q. And when you were lined up, was that all of you, all the men on

12 the bus who were lined up, or just some?

13 A. All of us. We got off the bus, all of us.

14 Q. And can you tell the Court what then happened when you were lined

15 up?

16 A. When we were lined up there were Miroljub and Major Sljivancanin,

17 and they asked each man individually whether they were ideologically

18 suitable. Miroljub was pointing fingers at people, and he kept saying,

19 "This one, this one, and this one," and those people would be released.

20 When he came to me, he said that this man had been loyal up to a certain

21 month of the year but that me and my sons where Ustashas, and it was at

22 this point that I was ordered to get back on the bus.

23 Q. Can you just wait for one moment, please?

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that the interpreters paused

Page 4878

1 when the witness used the following word in the B/C/S, "podoban,"

2 p-o-d-o-b-a-n. The interpretation on line -- on page 15, line 16, I don't

3 think is consistent with the meaning of the witness's

4 words. "Ideologically suitable" is the interpretation given, but I think

5 it might be very useful for the witness to explain when Sljivancanin asked

6 Vujovic about whether somebody was "podoban," what exactly did he mean. I

7 don't think the interpretation is quite correct, at least not the way I

8 understand the B/C/S.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how to answer that one,

10 but what he probably had in mind was that up until some months ago I had

11 not opposed the Chetniks. I had been a regular ordinary citizen. Once

12 the war began, I probably switched sides and sided with the Croats. That

13 was probably what he had in mind.

14 I don't know what else to say. A long time ago it was a question

15 of being fit to be a member of the party, of having all the prerequisites

16 for becoming a member of the Communist party, so that is what the word

17 used to apply to or refer to time ago.

18 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. I am sure my learned friend

19 Mr. Lukic could have asked that question in cross-examination.

20 Q. But can we just, please, now go right back to what we were asking

21 questions about? That was that were you in a line and you had Major

22 Sljivancanin and Miroljub was pointing people out. So I want you, please,

23 to put your mind back to that piece of evidence that you were giving and

24 tell the Court what was happening when Miroljub was pointing people out.

25 A. Miroljub would point people out and these people were free. They

Page 4879

1 would join their wives and go to the other buses. They went one by one,

2 those were who were released. They left with their wives towards the

3 buses parked outside the hospital entrance where the evacuation buses were

4 already lined up. All those who Miroljub Vujovic believed to be Ustashas

5 were taken to one side and sent back to the bus.

6 Q. And can we just deal very slowly, please, because you're still

7 talking very quickly, can we deal slowly, please, with what actually

8 happened to you. What was the conversation with you?

9 A. Miroljub told the major that I was an Ustasha and I was sent back

10 to that bus. At this point in time my wife pleaded with Mr. Sljivancanin,

11 Major Sljivancanin to let me go, because I was no Ustasha, she said. She

12 pleaded with all the Serbs she knew and they said, "Maybe tomorrow." But

13 my wife knew that that would be too late for me.

14 A neighbour of mine was a doctor at the hospital, Dr. Stanojevic.

15 She begged him, too, to set me free, to try to get me released, and he

16 said, "Maybe tomorrow," but she knew that would be too late. Still I must

17 say Mr. Stanojevic was married to a Croatian lady. He was a neighbour of

18 mine; he lived two houses further down the street. He went to see a

19 colonel from Belgrade - they were schoolmates, they studied together at

20 university - and that was the reason I was released. It was a soldier who

21 brought a small slip of paper with my name on it. I then got off the

22 bus. I threw myself into my wife's arms, we were crying, and I went to

23 the other side where all those people from the hospital were standing who

24 were preparing to be evacuated to Sremska Mitrovica.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Again, if I could just ask you to break your

Page 4880

1 answers into smaller parts.

2 Now, let us deal with --

3 A. [In English] Okay.

4 Q. That's all right. Let us deal with the bus itself. Now, you have

5 been placed on the bus. When you were placed on the bus and before you

6 were released from it again - I want to deal with you getting on to the

7 bus or being sent on to the bus - how many people were on that bus? How

8 many men had been put back on?

9 A. There were five or six people who were sent back. I was really

10 scared. My wife said she had never seen me look that way. I probably

11 knew somewhere deep inside that I was being taken away in order to be

12 shot. There was Adzaga there, as well as Josip Zelko.

13 Q. You say that Adzaga was there and Zelko.

14 A. I knew both Adzaga and Zelko by sight. I know Adzaga slightly

15 better because he lived on my brother's street. Both he and his brother,

16 in fact.

17 Q. Did you see when they were placed back on the bus?

18 A. No. I left and I later heard that the bus had been driven back to

19 the barracks, or whatever. I don't really know. I myself went elsewhere.

20 And I was happy to have got off that bus, the previous one. I left with

21 my wife, I was the last to board the buses headed for Sremska Mitrovica.

22 Q. Can I please just ask you to stop again and try and keep your

23 answers shorter.

24 Can I deal with Zelko?

25 A. [In English] Okay. Okay.

Page 4881

1 Q. Had he been in the line along with you before being placed back on

2 the bus?

3 A. Yes. All those from the bus were lined up.

4 Q. And Adzaga, was he in the line with you before he was put back on

5 the bus?

6 A. Adzaga, too, he was.

7 Q. Now, I want to deal with the other people who were on the bus

8 whose names you do not know. Do you understand whom I'm talking about?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. Did you recognise by face the other people who were put back on

11 the bus?

12 A. I told you I knew almost everybody in Vukovar. But the faces

13 etched in my memory belong to those two people. I was scared out of my

14 wits. I just sat on the front seat of the bus and I kept looking at my

15 wife.

16 Q. Would you please -- the question that I have asked is, you have

17 identified two people by name, but there were other people, because you

18 told us there were five or six -- please may I just ask the question?

19 The people who were on the bus whose names you didn't know, had

20 you seen them before? Did you recognise them?

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Could you pause, please.

23 Mr. Vasic.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. But I think on page 19,

25 lines 5 and 6 and 7 the witness has already answered this question.

Page 4882

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

2 Please carry on, Mr. Moore.


4 Q. I'll ask the question again. You have told us about five or six

5 people being on the bus, two of whom you recognised by name. The other

6 people, did you recognise their faces or not?

7 A. No, I didn't. I don't remember. As I've said before, I knew

8 nearly everybody in Vukovar, but I don't remember who was on the bus at

9 that time. Or, rather, who else.

10 Q. Can I just deal with one small piece of evidence, and perhaps I

11 should have asked you it before. You told us that you were being taken

12 from the JNA barracks back to the hospital. Do you remember that evidence

13 you gave?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did anybody tell you why it was you were being taken back from the

16 JNA barracks or what was going to happen to you?

17 A. No one ever told us. We weren't told anything, really. We were

18 all just terrified. Nobody said a word to us.

19 MR. MOORE: I have no further questions. Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. My

22 colleague, Mr. Domazet, will be taking this witness. Thank you.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

24 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I'm told that in actual fact there may be

25 names given, we have one particular name, and it's not on the transcript.

Page 4883

1 Now, if that's the case, I for obvious reasons would want that to be

2 clarified because there is -- it flew on to the indictment.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Is there a little arrow-head where the name was

4 put? If that's so, that is followed up afterwards when the tape is

5 checked.

6 MR. MOORE: I'm told it may be 716, and the names that I have seen

7 and I'm not going to repeat in open court, I do remember him saying, if I

8 may check my own note, I'll see whether --


10 MR. MOORE: 716. And I have got on my statement, the way I work

11 with my statements, I tick off the names to make sure hopefully that

12 everything is there, and these two names are ticked off as being given.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Do you see the arrow-heads that are there? They

14 are places where those typing and trying to keep up know that they have

15 missed something and it is then checked later and added in. But you might

16 have the witness go over those names again now, just in case, Mr. Moore,

17 before Mr. Domazet continues.

18 MR. MOORE: Forgive me for buckling on that particular suggestion,

19 because I don't want to, as it were, almost impeach my own witness. What

20 I have done in the past, and my learned friends have seen the document,

21 I've given it to them, is I have supplied to the witness the name of the

22 persons named in the back of the indictment and asked him to mark out any

23 of the names of people that he saw on the bus. Now, I would ask that that

24 procedure be adopted rather than ask him to go through what is clearly a

25 very stressful appearance for him.

Page 4884

1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, there would be no difficulty from the

2 Tribunal if you want to follow that course. You wouldn't, though, be

3 impeaching your witness if you followed the other course. So whichever

4 you prefer.

5 MR. MOORE: Yes, Your Honour. I think I will just prefer the

6 documentary course.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I thought you might.

8 MR. MOORE: It's -- it is on the Sanction.

9 Would Your Honour forgive me a moment?

10 Q. Yes. I wonder if you would be kind enough, Mr. Vilhelm, to look

11 at this particular document.

12 A. I can't see that; it's very small print.

13 Q. I know you're carrying your glasses. No, that won't do. Now, can

14 I just go -- ask you to stop for a moment?

15 A. Adzaga.

16 Q. Can you just wait for a moment, please, and I will run over this

17 particular document.

18 I think it's right to say that when you were being proofed you

19 were shown a list of names, and these are some of the names, and you have

20 ticked the people that you saw on the bus. Is that right or not?

21 A. I told you all the people I saw on the bus, those who went to the

22 barracks with me and those who returned to the hospital. I can read out

23 the names of these people one by one, if you'd like me to.

24 Q. No, I don't want you to do that. But we have a name there of

25 Adzaga. Do you see that name with a tick?

Page 4885

1 A. Yes. Ivan Adzaga.

2 Q. Did you see him on the bus?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Thank you. Can we go down to the next tick?

5 A. Lovro Barbir.

6 Q. And did you see him on the bus?

7 A. Yes. Your Honours, he was an internal inspector. This is a job

8 that I took up during my years as a refugee in the Borovo trading system.

9 Q. Thank you very much. But I just want you to answer yes or no when

10 I deal with this list. If I can turn the page, please.

11 A. [In English] Okay.

12 Q. Vladimir Djukic, did you see him on the bus?

13 A. Yes, Vladimir Dzukic. His father was a well-respected specialist

14 at the hospital, a doctor.

15 Q. Thank you. We'll turn the page again. And again. Now, can we

16 deal then, please, with the two others. And these are the two that were

17 omitted from the transcript.

18 A. Medjesi, father and son. His nickname was Cigo. He was the head

19 waiter at Grand and at Vucedol. His son was a cafe owner.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, can we go back to the letter D of this list? We

21 can see the name Martin Dosen with an H. Now, did you see Martin Dosen on

22 the 20th?

23 A. I saw Martin Dosen. He was still alive.

24 Q. And where did you see him on the 20th?

25 A. I saw him in front of the hospital entrance.

Page 4886

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I would have no further questions. The

3 two names that were omitted, as far as our records show, are the two Ms.

4 I'm rather surprised my learned friends didn't hear that and help me.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

6 Now, Mr. Domazet.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to say to

8 my learned friend that we heard these two last names not the first names

9 though.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know their first names. I

11 know that Dzukic was mentioned, and Medjesi, father and son. I don't know

12 their first names.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Domazet.

14 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Good afternoon to everyone in

16 the courtroom.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Domazet:

18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Vilhelm. My name is Vladimir Domazet. I'm

19 one of the Defence counsel of Mr. Mrksic, and on behalf of his Defence

20 team I will be putting questions to you.

21 Based on the information you provided to my learned friend, we can

22 see that you were born and raised in Vukovar, that you spent your entire

23 life there. You told the Prosecutor that you lived in a neighbourhood

24 known as Hollywood. Would you please explain to everyone where this

25 neighbourhood is located, this area where you lived?

Page 4887

1 A. Sir, that neighbourhood is located immediately next to the

2 Vuka River. After the bridge the first street that follows is Ivana

3 Gorana Kovacica, and you can recognise it on the basis of a large chimney.

4 We called it Spitznagel. There was a paint store there.

5 Q. Let us clarify something at the outset. My learned friend asked

6 you and you confirmed that this is the first time that you are testifying

7 in any trial. Is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Based on the information I have, you provided a statement to the

10 investigators in 1995?

11 A. In Zagreb.

12 Q. Would you please wait for the end of my question before answering?

13 This is because of the interpreters.

14 That was sometime in July of 1995; do you remember that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you remember how long it took for you to give that statement,

17 how many days?

18 A. Just one day.

19 Q. One whole day or less than a day; do you remember that?

20 A. Not a whole day. Several hours, a couple of hours.

21 Q. You must have looked at the statement and then you signed it,

22 didn't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Following that did you ever give any other statements to the OTP

25 investigators or in any other proceedings?

Page 4888

1 A. No. I never gave statements to anyone until I came here to

2 testify.

3 Q. Thank you. Based on that statement, you worked in Borovo as an

4 accountant before the conflict broke out?

5 A. Yes. During the war -- during the war I worked as an auditor, and

6 before the war I worked in a similar line of work, calculating figures.

7 Q. You said that you worked during the war. Would you please tell us

8 what exactly you had in mind, what period of time and what did you work

9 [as interpreted]?

10 A. When we were returned on buses from Sremska Mitrovica, I went to

11 Zagreb and I got hired by Borovo.

12 Q. All right. Thank you. So you are talking about the period after

13 the fall of Vukovar. I thought that you had in mind during the conflict

14 in Vukovar.

15 A. No, nobody was able to work during the conflict in Vukovar. All

16 of us had to leave our jobs after the month of July.

17 Q. All right. Thank you. I didn't quite understand you because you

18 said "during the war," so I thought that you meant during the conflict.

19 A. Perhaps you misunderstood what I said. While I was an auditor in

20 Zagreb, I went to various stores, and the war was still raging in Zadar

21 and in Dalmatian towns.

22 Q. All right, all right. You clarified that. When answering one of

23 Mr. Moore's questions you spoke about serving your military service, so I

24 can see that you did that. So would you please give us some details about

25 when, where and which branch of service?

Page 4889

1 A. I served in Trebinje in 1960-something, 1965 or 1966. No, it was

2 1965.

3 Q. Which branch?

4 A. I did not have a rank. But since I was in charge of the football

5 team of the barracks, I was designated to be the prison warden in the

6 north camp in Trebinje.

7 Q. You mean the military prison which existed within the barracks in

8 Trebinje; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You must have been given a rank, such as, for example,

11 lance-corporal or something like that?

12 A. No, I held no rank. My commander was Colonel Puzigaca.

13 Q. Will you please tell me which arms of service or which branches

14 you served in?

15 A. In the infantry.

16 Q. All right. After completing your military service you lived in

17 Vukovar. Were you a reservist, did you attend any training, did you have

18 a wartime assignment?

19 A. No, I did not have any wartime assignments. I was only summoned

20 into the army when the Russians were attacking. I received a call-up to

21 go to a place near Vinkovci. I was there for a month with the JNA as a

22 reservist.

23 Q. I suppose that you're referring to 1968 when Czechoslovakia was

24 occupied. Is that what you were referring to?

25 A. I can't remember which year it was, but I spent more than one

Page 4890

1 month in that place near Vinkovci. Can't remember the name of the place.

2 We were in a forest. We had a camp there with tents. We filled various

3 ditches and were creating conditions for us to be able to defend

4 ourselves. That's what they were telling us, that we should be able to

5 defend ourselves in case they attack.

6 Q. Thank you. Were you a member of the League of Communists of

7 Yugoslavia? I'm referring now to the time when there was a single-party

8 system?

9 A. I was never a member of the party. I was an avid football man,

10 and after completing my work I would go to football practices. My team,

11 Borovo, was in the second league, so I would first work, and then after

12 business hours, would go to football training.

13 Q. Thank you. What about afterwards?

14 A. Never.

15 Q. Will you please tell us something briefly about the situation in

16 Vukovar in early 1991? First of all, tell us, please, did tensions

17 between the Serb and Croat population start escalating at the time and, if

18 so, what is your view about the reasons for that?

19 A. Up until the attack when the policemen were killed in Borovo Selo,

20 Serbs and Croats never dreamed that there would be a war. Nobody even

21 considered this as a possibility.

22 Q. Thank you. That's not what I had in mind, whether there would be

23 a war or not. Tell us, were there any incidents, were there any

24 explosions, fires, did some people go missing?

25 A. Up until that time, no.

Page 4891

1 Q. You said yourself that you were not a member of any party; that

2 includes the HDZ. Therefore, tell us, do you know that that spring in the

3 towns around Vukovar the HDZ organised the so-called unarmed detachments?

4 A. No, I'm not aware of that. I was interested in football. I don't

5 know this. I wasn't interested in this.

6 Q. Do you know, did you hear that people started buying weapons at

7 the time in an illegal way?

8 A. Sir, in our street, once the children came back from their summer

9 vacation, we organised shifts, watching the situation. But our whole

10 street had only one single rifle.

11 Q. Is the name Slavko Dokmanovic familiar to you?

12 A. Yes. The name is familiar to me. He was the president of the

13 Trpinja football club. I played football, so I knew him. Also he worked

14 for municipality.

15 Q. Yes. That's the information I have, too, that he was involved in

16 football. And this is how you knew him?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I will try to go back to correct something, but now I'm being told

19 that, in fact, there is no error in the transcript, so we can move on.

20 Would you please tell us what you did during the conflict in

21 Vukovar? Were you mobilised or were you perhaps a volunteer with the

22 National Guards Corps or in any other institution?

23 A. In our street nobody was mobilised. I'm just telling you that

24 we -- we had our watch shifts, that we had but one single rifle and

25 nothing more than that.

Page 4892

1 Q. When was that, sir?

2 A. After the Borovo Selo event, after the policemen were killed

3 there, and once the children came back from their summer vacation. This

4 is when the shelling started.

5 Q. I suppose that you are referring to civilian protection, because

6 this is what you mentioned in your statement, saying that you joined the

7 civilian protection. My question was: When did you join the civilian

8 protection?

9 A. In late July.

10 Q. In the statement that you gave to the investigators you said late

11 June, early July. Which is true?

12 A. Early August.

13 Q. I am now going to refer to your statement. Do you have one in

14 front of you? I will now ask the usher to give you a statement, your

15 statement in Croatian. This is number 00327866.

16 Will you please take a look at the first page, the first page with

17 the text, which is actually the second page. The passage that starts

18 with: "I will briefly set out my experience."

19 A. During the conflict.

20 Q. Yes. When it says here about the month.

21 A. "I will briefly set out my experience during the conflict in

22 Vukovar, which started following the deaths of several police officers in

23 Borovo Selo in May that year. At the end of June and at the beginning of

24 July I joined with other civilians, the civilian protection unit of the

25 city of Vukovar. I did not join the National Guards Corps and I did not

Page 4893

1 wear a uniform, but I did carry a rifle."

2 Q. Thank you. Will you agree with me that then, back then in 1995

3 your recollections were much better than they are today?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you see that when speaking of civilian protection you speak of

6 late June, early July, so earlier then you said today. So can we then

7 agree that as early as that you joined the civilian protection?

8 A. I have already told you that we joined the civilian protection

9 once the children came back from their summer vacation and once the buses

10 were shelled. Perhaps I misspoke that -- but that's when it was, and I'm

11 telling you this frankly.

12 Q. All right. We will not dwell on this, but you will not be needing

13 the statement for the time being. Keep it with you.

14 What was your primary task? What did you do? You mentioned this

15 in your statement, but since the Prosecutor didn't cover this with you,

16 will you please tell us in detail what you did during the conflict?

17 A. During the conflict a friend of mine called Menges who was a

18 schoolmate of mine, I was known to have nice handwriting, so he went with

19 me to school at Sokak and I drew up lists of people who were in the

20 basement so that food might be supplied to them.

21 Q. Did you keep doing this throughout this time as the lists were

22 being drawn up? Both you and Menges were doing this after all, as you

23 said.

24 A. No, Menges wasn't doing that. He was from -- he asked me and I

25 was from Ivana Gorana Kovacica Street, and they asked me to help them with

Page 4894

1 the lists.

2 Q. And you did, didn't you, you drew up those lists?

3 A. Just because I had such a fine handwriting they gave me those

4 lists to be rite up for those people in basements to be given some food.

5 All the food was being kept at the Hungarian school in a rather large

6 hall, and it was from there that food was being distributed to the

7 basements.

8 Q. You have mentioned that school already, the Hungarian school.

9 Whereabouts was it exactly?

10 A. Just across the street in Radiceva Street facing Mitnica.

11 Q. Was one of the defence headquarters there?

12 A. I don't know where Vukovar's defence headquarters were, but there

13 was a group of armed people, our own people there. There was no need for

14 me to carry a rifle or anything, because I was working in an office, but

15 there were many basements there holding many people.

16 Q. How many times did you draw up lists for them?

17 A. I worked at it for several days in a row. I would then go home,

18 and every time I finished a list they would give me a new list, depending

19 on who was in which basement. I cycled back to Radiceva Street because I

20 myself lived on Ivana Gorana Kovacica Street. If you cycle, it takes

21 about 10 or 12 minutes to reach the school.

22 Q. You took several days to produce the list. What time would you

23 say that was?

24 A. That was in November, early November.

25 Q. The first time you drew up a list was in early November, right?

Page 4895

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In your statement you pointed out that your principal duty was to

3 produce these lists. What, then, had you been doing up to this point?

4 A. I was in my street and we stood guard just like everyone else.

5 Q. Up to this point in time you had been standing guard. You weren't

6 wearing any uniforms and you weren't carrying rifles, were you?

7 A. No uniform, but I did say that right from the word go we had a

8 single rifle and we passed it on to the next person taking over it.

9 Q. What about later on? Later on you were given something, weren't

10 you?

11 A. There was this one evening, I can't remember when exactly, but we

12 were given a number of Kalashnikovs. We didn't get enough, because they'd

13 given some to Sajmiste. We received those Kalashnikovs. We spent the

14 whole night cleaning the rifles because they were oily and dirty.

15 Q. That presumes that you served in the army, right, and I expect you

16 would be able to see if these were new?

17 A. Yes, they were entirely new.

18 Q. You were cleaning this rifles with this group of people. How many

19 rifles were there?

20 A. Between 10 and 15, I'd say, not more.

21 Q. These lists you've mentioned, what was done with these lists,

22 eventually? Do you know that?

23 A. I don't know what was done with them, but I think Menges took the

24 lists along to Zagreb on the break-through attempt.

25 Q. Yes, that's why I'm asking you. Because in your statement you

Page 4896

1 said that Menges took the lists away from Zagreb -- from Vukovar and that

2 he took them to Zagreb, which means it was some sort of a continuous

3 action on his part?

4 A. I know that he had the lists on him during the break-through

5 attempt, but his son was killed.

6 Q. Do you know anything about a meeting that was held at the

7 municipal building on Saturday, the 17th of November?

8 A. No. I know nothing about that meeting. When I gave the statement

9 they asked me whether I had heard about that. It was upon my return that

10 I heard about Vesna Bosanac holding a meeting of sorts. But during my

11 three or four days at the hospital, I never actually met Vesna Bosanac. I

12 never saw her.

13 Q. Would you care to share with me what exactly you were told about

14 this meeting?

15 A. I heard this when I was in Zagreb. I heard that Dr. Bosanac had

16 been making proposals at the meeting, or whoever else was there, for the

17 soldiers to put on white uniforms in order to save their lives. However,

18 they chose not to and that proved to be a wise decision.

19 Q. If I understand you correctly, you claim you only learned about

20 this in Zagreb later on, but you weren't there personally?

21 A. No, nor did I see Dr. Bosanac over those last days, the three or

22 four days that I spent at the hospital.

23 Q. Yes, but as you said today, you entered the hospital on the

24 evening of the 17th?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4897

1 Q. So do you allow for the possibility that a meeting was held before

2 you got there on the 17th?

3 A. I don't know. My wife and I were in the Velepromet basement. In

4 the Velepromet basement. After we had escaped, we spent several days in

5 the Velepromet basement across the way from the hospital.

6 Q. You personally?

7 A. Yes, I personally, and my wife and people from Luzac who were also

8 on the run and took refuge in those cellars.

9 Q. Your wife was a hospital employee. She was a dental specialist, a

10 dentist, right?

11 A. Yes. My wife was a dentist with the hospital, and now she's a

12 dental specialist, an orthodontist.

13 Q. She was staying at the hospital all the time back then, wasn't

14 she?

15 A. No, not all the time. She would only go when she was called.

16 Q. So you left with her for the hospital. She wasn't at the hospital

17 when you got there, nor was she sleeping at the hospital. Am I to take

18 your words to mean that?

19 A. Yes, that's right. I spent several day with her in the Velepromet

20 basement, as I've said already.

21 Q. This means that at this point in time you left the previous place

22 where you were?

23 A. Yes. We all fled our streets and went towards the hospital. Not

24 straight to the hospital. We first stopped at this shelter, the warehouse

25 that I told you about, and spent several days there.

Page 4898

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think this might be

3 a convenient time for a break.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic [sic].

5 Could I mention for the benefit of Defence counsel that the

6 evidence of the witness took just on one hour in chief. The

7 cross-examination so far has extended for some half an hour.

8 I would mention, I think, Mr. Domazet, I was thinking elsewhere

9 and had your name wrongly; I apologise.

10 I would suggest that Defence counsel might consider that the total

11 cross-examination ought to be able to be concluded in about two hours

12 between all three, If counsel would take that into account over the break.

13 We will resume at five past 4.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

16 MR. DEMRIDJIAN: Your Honours.


18 MR. DEMRIDJIAN: Yes, I'm sorry to interrupt the proceedings.

19 It's in relation to the next witness. At this time I have a very small

20 application to make, if I may.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, indeed.

22 MR. DEMRIDJIAN: The next witness has a little medical problem.

23 One of his tooth was pulled out last night, and he is in some pain right

24 now. He is under medication and he is asking if it's possible to start

25 tomorrow morning instead of late this afternoon.

Page 4899

1 I spoke to my learned friends, and they have some reservations

2 about that, and they think that he should come and make that application

3 himself.

4 I leave it to Your Honours.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Your Honours, I may

7 have sprung to my feet a little too quickly.

8 As a matter of principle, the Defence would be well disposed to

9 accept a motion like this. But we still believe that it would be all

10 right for the witness to appear in person and to share his problems with

11 us, just to make sure he is not ill again tomorrow.

12 I seem to have found something about this witness that sort of

13 rings a bell in some document or other, a document not likely to be used

14 in these proceedings. We just believe it would be advisable for the Trial

15 Chamber to get an impression on the witness's condition.

16 Therefore, we move that the witness appear before the court in

17 order to tell us himself.

18 MR. DEMRIDJIAN: Your Honours, the witness has already confirmed

19 that he would be ready to start tomorrow, if that could help.

20 JUDGE PARKER: A tooth was drawn, and when did that occur?

21 MR. DEMRIDJIAN: This happened just late afternoon yesterday.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE PARKER: I fear the application could mean that we would

25 lose 40 minutes or so today. But given that there is a medical condition,

Page 4900

1 a tooth has been drawn, this is the day after, we think that without undue

2 inquiry, we can accept counsel's assurance of that matter. And we would

3 allow the witness now to go and do whatever he can to recover, and we will

4 hear the witness tomorrow morning. We continue in the morning tomorrow

5 at 9.00, and it's not in this courtroom, it's in Courtroom II.

6 So yes, you may work on that basis.

7 MR. DEMRIDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Domazet.

9 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: That may give Mr. Lukic a little more time liberty,

11 because if anybody needs some time with this witness, it may be Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will do my best to

13 ensure that Mr. Lukic has sufficient time.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

15 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Vilhelm, will you please take again the statement that should

17 be before you? Please turn to page 1 of your statement and look at the

18 portion with paragraph 8 beginning with the words: "In the municipal

19 building." Would you please read out that entire passage?

20 A. "A meeting was called at the municipal building to discuss what

21 was going to happen. Dr. Bosanac attended the meeting and suggested that

22 the defenders put on white coats and surrender to the occupying forces.

23 The majority of the people refused this. As it turned out, it was a wise

24 decision. This meeting took place on Saturday, the 17th of November."

25 Q. Thank you. This is your statement given in 1995?

Page 4901

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Does this sound like something that you heard later, or is this

3 description -- is this a description given by an eye-witness who was

4 present and who heard who proposed what and who rejected what?

5 A. There were people who testified before me in Zagreb and most

6 likely they didn't understand this well. I said that I heard that there

7 had been a meeting.

8 Q. Sir, you gave this statement, you read it, and you signed it.

9 That's what you told us today.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you will agree with me that the statement does not say

12 anywhere that you heard this in Zagreb, it doesn't say from whom you heard

13 this, it doesn't explain to us how you learned this about who was present,

14 what was going on, and so on.

15 A. How would I know who was present? I never knew that, and I never

16 heard about who had attended.

17 Q. You have read out to us the second sentence where it says that

18 Dr. Bosanac attended the meeting and made a suggestion for the defenders

19 to put on white coats and surrender?

20 A. Yes, this was discussed in Zagreb; therefore, I heard it.

21 Dr. Bosanac was not with us in Zagreb. She was imprisoned in

22 Sremska Mitrovica together with Dr. Njavro. This is what I heard from

23 people who were with me at the Astoria hotel. And it's been a long time

24 since 1995. This was discussed at the Astoria hotel where I lived.

25 Q. You will agree with me that this is not what your statement says,,

Page 4902

1 your statement doesn't say that you heard this from somebody else. It

2 implies something else?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, let us read the paragraph starting with: "On the 19th of

5 November."

6 A. "On the 19th of November, I went to the hospital where I spent the

7 night with my wife with other medical staff. We slept on benches in an

8 office in the basement."

9 Q. That's enough. That's enough. So in 1995, you told us this

10 today, your recollections were much better. You speak not only of the

11 19th of November, but also you say that you spent the night there. Today

12 you told us it was on the 17th.

13 A. I thought it was 19th, but actually we came on the 17th in the

14 evening when it was raining. I spent three days at the hospital. I have

15 no reason to lie. This is the correction that I am making. I arrived on

16 the 17th in the evening. It was raining, the tanks were already by the

17 railway station, and we had to move from the basement to the hospital.

18 Q. What about the next paragraph? Will you please read out the first

19 sentence.

20 A. "The next morning, on the 20th of November, the JNA soldiers and

21 Chetniks entered the hospital."

22 Q. You can stop there. Does this also imply that you could not have

23 been mistaken when you said that after spending one night, on the

24 following day you described what you did; namely, that the JNA came and so

25 on. So how can you explain this?

Page 4903

1 A. I can't explain this. I came on the 17th in the evening. When

2 they asked me this, perhaps I didn't quite understand. There is no reason

3 for me to lie to you. I came there on the 17th.

4 Q. Based on what you said today, you were at the hospital from

5 the 17th until the 20th in the morning?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said that during that time you never saw Dr. Vesna Bosanac?

8 A. No. I was in the basement with my wife and Dr. Kolak, the lady

9 doctor who worked with my wife. The children were housed there in the

10 basement.

11 Q. You said that on the 19th you didn't see anyone either, the

12 soldiers or anybody else. You just heard that somebody was at the

13 hospital, but where you were, nobody came to inform you?

14 A. We were at the children's ward. Nobody came to the children's

15 ward. I didn't see anybody. We just heard what people were saying.

16 Q. You certainly know who Marin Vidic, Bili, was?

17 A. Yes, I know Marin Vidic, Bili. I think that he is from Lovas and

18 he used to work for the municipality as well.

19 Q. Did you see him, perhaps, at the hospital?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Would you please wait for the end of the question and then give

22 your answer? This is for the sake of the transcript.

23 A. All right.

24 Q. So you didn't see him at the hospital during those days?

25 A. No, I didn't see him at all during the war.

Page 4904

1 Q. What about after the war? Did you hear what kind of a role he had

2 during the war? You told us that you had heard some things from other

3 people?

4 A. No, I didn't hear anything. I just know that he had a good

5 singing voice. I know that he was in Lovas. I don't know anything else.

6 Q. Do you remember what was happening at the hospital or what

7 happened at the hospital from the moment you arrived on the 17th in the

8 evening? Do you remember that something was taking place on the 17th in

9 the evening at the hospital?

10 A. No, nothing. There were many wounded persons in the corridors.

11 They were asking for help, there was no more medication, very little

12 food. Nothing was going on.

13 Q. What about on the 18th? Was something going on on the 18th?

14 A. Whatever was going on, I was in the basement. I didn't leave the

15 basement. My wife and I shared one bed. One would sleep for one hour and

16 then the other one would sleep for one hour. We also had benches there.

17 I didn't go outside.

18 Q. Does that mean that you did not go out on the 19th either, that

19 you never left the premises in the basement until the 20th in the morning?

20 A. I would go out into the corridors where I saw the wounded, some of

21 them I recognised. They were on benches. Everything else was destroyed.

22 There was no room for them in regular patient rooms.

23 Q. When you arrived at the hospital, was that the only time that you

24 came to the hospital during the war or did you come previously on some

25 other occasions?

Page 4905

1 A. I came several times prior to that bringing the wounded from the

2 Hungarian school to the hospital. When I was with Menges, Mr. Skoko and

3 I - he had a car - brought the wounded to the hospital from the Hungarian

4 school. They needed medical assistance.

5 Q. All right. Since you came to the hospital several times, do you

6 remember whether the hospital was guarded? Were there any armed people

7 guarding the hospital?

8 A. At the entrance of the hospital where I would come with the

9 wounded there was a soldier with a rifle guarding the entrance. I knew

10 him, and I later heard that he was killed. His last name was Perkovic. I

11 don't know his first name.

12 Q. You say a soldier?

13 A. Yes. What I had in mind is that he wore a guard's uniform, and he

14 stood there guarding the hospital with a rifle, checking who was going in.

15 Q. Did you see the same soldier every time you came to the hospital?

16 A. I didn't go there many times. I came only once bringing in the

17 wounded. I didn't go there more than that.

18 Q. When you just read out to us the passage about the meeting held in

19 the municipal building on Saturday, the 17th of November, what about that

20 fact, that it was a Saturday? Did you learn that from people in Zagreb?

21 A. Yes, most likely. I can't tell you now whether it was a Saturday

22 or not. So many years have passed. Most likely it was the 17th. I know

23 that the meeting was held. I know that it was raining. And at that

24 meeting my son was present as well. Later on when he went into

25 break-through, I learned from him that they had had a meeting.

Page 4906

1 Q. All right. So this is a new element now.

2 A. I'm telling you the truth.

3 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have concluded my

4 cross-examination.

5 JUDGE PARKER: That's appreciated indeed, Mr. Domazet.

6 Yes, Ms. Tapuskovic.

7 Cross-examination by Ms. Tapuskovic:

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Mr. Vilhelm. My

10 name is Mira Tapuskovic. I am one of the Defence counsel of Mr. Miroslav

11 Radic. I will put very few questions to you.

12 A. Please go ahead.

13 Q. We will comply with the instructions of the Trial Chamber to be

14 brief. I would kindly ask you to make pauses before answering the

15 questions so that the interpretation service has sufficient time to

16 interpret timely and accurately what I say and what you say.

17 Mr. Domazet asked you something about your statement which you

18 gave in Zagreb in 1995.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was this statement given at the police station in Zagreb in the

21 presence of investigators?

22 A. I don't know where it was. It was in a building in Zagreb. I

23 don't even know what the building is called. I have no idea.

24 Q. All right. Do you know in the meantime since then, and this was

25 in 1995, did you give to anyone or any organisation, any other statement

Page 4907

1 and did you submit anywhere a statement that you signed?

2 A. No, it didn't even occur to me. This was in 1995. And to tell

3 you the truth, I even forgot that I had given a statement. It's been 10

4 years, madam. I didn't even reflect on this.

5 Q. Thank you. You told us about where you lived in Vukovar, what the

6 profession of your wife is. Now, tell us this: In 1991, how old were

7 your children, and what is their gender?

8 A. I told you that the occupation had just started when my son

9 returned back from serving his military duty, which was in Tuzla. He came

10 back in July, and he was supposed to go with the army to some front

11 lines. However, somehow he managed to come home from Tuzla.

12 Q. All right. You said in your 1995 statement something about

13 Menges. You said that his son got killed attempting to break through the

14 siege. Do you remember his first name? Was it Vladimir Menges?

15 A. I believe so. Menges, the father, is a painter, house-painter.

16 Q. I didn't ask you this.

17 A. I think that that was his profession.

18 Q. Sir, let us both try to comply with the Court's instructions.

19 Tell me, do you know what happened later to Menges?

20 A. I don't know. You mean the son?

21 Q. No. The son got killed; you told us that.

22 A. The father lives in Vukovar to this day.

23 Q. Was the father exchanged later on after being taken to

24 Sremska Mitrovica?

25 A. He was not taken to Sremska Mitrovica. The father managed to

Page 4908

1 escape in the break-through.

2 Q. All right. Thank you. I had some information indicating that he

3 was in Sremska Mitrovica, if his first name is indeed Vladimir.

4 A. The Menges that I have in mind is the one who left the town

5 through a break-through and went to Zagreb.

6 Q. All right. Now that you are mentioning break-throughs, you told

7 us that Mr. Menges had lists of persons who were in various shelters in

8 Vukovar. Tell me, please, for you in civilian protection, was a

9 break-through the only way of delivering these lists to Zagreb?

10 A. I don't know. I don't know what was his task.

11 Q. You know that Dr. Bosanac sent daily appeals, pleading for

12 assistance to Vukovar?

13 A. I don't know that, sir [as interpreted]. There was no

14 electricity. I have no knowledge about this.

15 Q. You were involved in writing down the lists of residents and

16 ensuring food supply?

17 A. Madam, I worked in a school building, we did not have a telephone,

18 we did not have anything but a desk. All I did was copy these lists.

19 Q. Would you please remember to make breaks.

20 A. All right. Do you want me to repeat this slowly?

21 Q. No need. When asked by Mr. Domazet you told us something about

22 the conditions under which these lists were made and when they were

23 brought. Once the lists were submitted to Mr. Menges, were they updated

24 later?

25 A. I know nothing about that. I have no idea. All I know is that I

Page 4909

1 wrote down the names of the people who were in basements in various

2 streets.

3 Q. However, you did not update them once you wrote them down?

4 A. I never saw them again, these lists. I only saw them on the day

5 when I copied them. And I copied them because they wanted this to be

6 written out in a nice handwriting, and that's what I did.

7 Q. All right. Thank you. Even though you said that your only task

8 was to copy the lists, and that was because you had a nice handwriting,

9 you were still involved with the civilian protection. Can you tell us on

10 what day was the police station hit and when was it set on fire?

11 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you the exact date, but it was around

12 the 16th or the 17th. I'm not sure though.

13 Q. All right. But at any rate, you will agree with me that it was

14 several days before -- would you please wait for me to complete my

15 question. You will agree with me that it was several days before Vukovar

16 fell?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. You were involved in civil protection. Did you ever meet anyone

19 called Frano Kozul?

20 A. Frano Kozul, no, never.

21 Q. Very well. Thank you.

22 I'm sorry, I just have to go through my questions again, because

23 my learned friend Mr. Domazet asked some of the same questions that I had

24 planned.

25 If you remember, I believe you have a copy of your statement in

Page 4910

1 front of you, I'm not about to quote you, but you did say that a

2 break-through attempt had been organised for members of Vukovar's defence.

3 Is that right?

4 A. It was no organised thing, really, because the police had gone on

5 before them. They heard that the police had started a break-through

6 attempt, but not many of them got through, and they tried to do the same.

7 Q. Sir, do you have that statement in front of you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you please --

10 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] For the benefit of my learned

11 friends, this is page 1 of the witness statement, paragraph 7.

12 Q. Please follow and confirm whether what I have just read out is

13 accurate. "The break-through was an organised attempt to escape by the

14 rather large number of people, for the most part those who had been at the

15 defence positions."

16 Is this an accurate quote, sir? Please wait for me. Is this an

17 accurate quote from your statement?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. You signed this statement back in 1995 to confirm that

20 it was accurate and faithful, an accurate and faithful reflection of your

21 account, the account that you gave at the time?

22 A. Yes. This is something that my son told me, because he was part

23 of the break-through. The break-through was successful, and I heard that

24 my son was alive, that he had survived. It was on the bus from Djakovo on

25 our way to Zagreb. My son told me that the break-through had taken three

Page 4911

1 days and that it was eventually successful.

2 Q. You have stated that you were a member of civil protection. And

3 you have just read out yourself that the break-through was an organised

4 attempt by a rather large number of people who had been at the defence

5 positions. Can you agree then that in addition to your duties with the

6 civil protection unit you had other duties to do with the town's defence.

7 You did, after all, tell us that you carried a rifle, didn't you?

8 A. I did carry a rifle, but in my own street, Ivana Gorana Kovacica

9 Street, I drew up the guard schedule, both day-time and night-time.

10 Q. Thank you. Did you ever meet someone named Stjepan Pole?

11 A. I know Stjepan Pole, but it's all because of football. He was a

12 member of the police and I knew the man, yes.

13 Q. Thank you. About Stjepan Pole, after the clashes had erupted in

14 Vukovar, did Stjepan Pole stay in Vukovar throughout and did you see him

15 around?

16 A. I didn't go anywhere. I was at the school building and every now

17 and then medical assistance had to be provided for a tooth extraction or

18 something like that. It was under heavy shelling that we sometimes drove

19 these people to the hospital to be helped.

20 Q. So what was the real reason for you not joining the break-through

21 attempt, since you were a member of Vukovar's defence forces?

22 A. Dear lady, I didn't even know about the break-through attempt. My

23 son had come to see me and my wife four or five days previously. He came

24 to the basement where we were staying. He wanted me to give him some

25 money because he would not surrender to the Chetniks, and that's the truth

Page 4912

1 of it.

2 Q. Where did your son come from?

3 A. He was also staying at the Hungarian school. He was at those

4 positions facing the barracks.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Having left the hospital and headed for the

6 buses, did you put on white overcoats?

7 A. I didn't. I don't think anybody on the bus had white overcoats at

8 all. Except maybe for the driver and perhaps two or three other people.

9 There was no one else wearing either a military uniform or a white

10 overcoat.

11 Q. None of the 20 or so people there?

12 A. Not on my bus.

13 Q. Thank you. I'm talking about your bus on the way from the

14 hospital to the barracks. How many soldiers were there on the bus?

15 A. You mean on the bus?

16 Q. Precisely. That's what I'm asking about. Any soldiers there?

17 A. Yes, one. And the driver.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you remember how much time you spent inside the

19 barracks on the bus? And this whole time, between your arrival at the

20 barracks and your return to the hospital, how long did that take?

21 A. I can't say exactly. We didn't stay at the barracks that long. A

22 soldier came over, or whoever, I didn't actually see him, who brought a

23 list containing the names of wives whose husbands were detained on that

24 bus. They called out the names and whoever was on the bus went back to

25 the bus.

Page 4913

1 Q. Thank you very much, sir. You mentioned Mihajlo Kolesar a couple

2 of times.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said he was a neighbour of yours.

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Sir, if I put it to you that Mr. Kolesar was interviewed by the

7 OTP the same year as you and he clearly stated that he was wearing a white

8 overcoat and that he was not the only one wearing a white overcoat, what

9 would you say?

10 Excuse me, sir, I am trying to find a reference. For the benefit

11 of my learned friends from the OTP, this is page 5 of the B/C/S statement

12 made by Mr. Kolesar.

13 Would that perhaps refresh your memory to the effect that you,

14 Mr. Kolesar, and perhaps someone else on that bus were, in fact, wearing

15 white overcoats?

16 A. I don't remember. All I know is that Biba Kolesar was the head

17 nurse. And he was not on my street throughout this time. He was at the

18 hospital.

19 Q. But that wasn't my question, sir. Please, allow me to finish

20 asking you my question. It's because of the interpretation.

21 My question is: Do you think it would ring a bell with you if I

22 told you that Mr. Kolesar said in a statement that he was wearing a white

23 overcoat and this seems to suggest that he was not the only one wearing a

24 white overcoat. Does that stir any memories, sir?

25 A. It can only mean that they were familiar with that meeting where

Page 4914

1 Dr. Bosanac told them to put on white overcoats, because their wives were

2 employees of the hospital.

3 Q. Thank you. You dropped a couple of names in your testimony today,

4 the names of persons on that bus. You just told us that you and

5 Mr. Kolesar were neighbours?

6 A. Yes, that's right. We were neighbours.

7 Q. What would you say if I told you that Mr. Kolesar was asked this

8 question: "Did you know anyone on that bus?"

9 And on the same page of his statement to the OTP back in 1995, he

10 clearly stated that he didn't know anyone on that bus. What would you

11 say, sir?

12 A. That's up to him. It's none of my business. All I know is that I

13 took an oath before this Court and what I'm telling you is the truth, the

14 naked truth.

15 Q. Thank you very much. When you arrived here you prepared for this

16 testimony. You told us that this is your first appearance before any

17 court, and you clearly stated that you had no past forum. As you were

18 being proofed for your testimony, were you shown a list?

19 A. I was shown a list of people I had seen at the hospital. The list

20 from the bus --

21 Q. Sir, can you hold right there, please? What I asked you is

22 whether you were shown a list. I didn't ask whether the list was in

23 reference to the persons on the bus or the persons at the hospital. All I

24 asked was were you shown a list?

25 A. I'm telling you, I didn't see any list at all. Only some people I

Page 4915

1 recognised, if I had seen anyone at the hospital.

2 Q. That means on the 17th of February in The Hague you were shown a

3 list with first and last names -- with the first and last names of certain

4 persons?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Sir, do you speak English?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Were you told what sort of list this was?

9 A. No.

10 Q. In your testimony today on page 22, line 20, you testified in

11 chief about a person you recognised by the name of Ivan Adzaga?

12 A. I didn't say Ivan Adzaga. I just said Adzaga. I said I didn't

13 remember his first name.

14 Q. Fair enough. Further -- bear with me, please. I am putting

15 together some notes here concerning the examination-in-chief of the

16 witness.

17 Likewise, concerning that list, the nature of which you were not

18 informed about, you marked the name of Lovro Barbir?

19 A. He was on the bus with me.

20 Q. Fair enough. You also mentioned some people named Medjesi and

21 marked their names, didn't you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you for your assistance with the pronunciation. There are

24 two names in this list; it says "Medjesi" twice.

25 A. Yes, father and son.

Page 4916

1 Q. Father and son. All right. You said in your statement that this

2 person was called Zoran Medjesi, whereas today on page 24 you marked Zoran

3 Medjesi, whereas today on page 24, line 4 of the transcript, you said you

4 didn't know the names of the Medjesis, the father and son.

5 A. Where in this statement can you find Zoran Medjesi?

6 Q. I corrected myself. I said it was on that list that you marked.

7 And probably someone added the word "bus" next to your name, the name

8 Medjesi, and you said to us today, on page 24 that you didn't know the

9 names of the Medjesis, father and son?

10 A. Father and son. Cigo was a waiter. There is only two males by

11 the name of Medjesi, two men. These are the only two Medjesis that I know

12 of. Their wife [as interpreted] is Verica Medjesi.

13 Q. I just have another question. You said that you were reunited

14 with your family on the 25th and 26th of November in Zagreb?

15 A. My son only. My son.

16 Q. Your statement says your family, the 25th and the 26th of

17 November. That's what it says.

18 A. When I said "family," I meant my son, because my daughter remained

19 in Osijek.

20 Q. Fair enough.

21 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

22 questions for this witness. Thank you.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

24 Mr. Lukic.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

Page 4917

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,

2 sir. My name is Novak Lukic, Defence counsel for Mr. Sljivancanin. I

3 will be asking a number of questions now.

4 I am happy with the pace of the cross-examination, but as my

5 learned friends have already asked you, the problem is, we understand each

6 other as we speak, but the interpreters must hear both me and you. It's

7 for the sake of the transcript. So, please, if could you pause after my

8 question.

9 A. I'm a bit quick by nature. I tend to jump the gun.

10 Q. So am I; that's no problem at all.

11 The first question, I usually start with something involving my

12 client. You described the situation where Sljivancanin was talking to

13 Vujovic on behalf of all of you. Could you just wait a minute, sir? And

14 you described how you found out that the person in question was Major

15 Sljivancanin?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you remember about that day? Except for this meeting after

18 your return from the barracks, did you see Sljivancanin again?

19 A. When I returned from the hospital, for the first time in my life.

20 Q. Thank you. That was my understanding, but I just wanted to make

21 sure.

22 There is another question that I have to ask you by way of

23 clarification to make sure how I should interpret your testimony. You

24 were asked in chief about your posts and positions. You're familiar with

25 the structure of the JNA, with the TO. From your time with the JNA, you

Page 4918

1 were also familiar with the various ranks and the general structure.

2 My question about this is: You used the term "Chetnik" here

3 today. When you say "Chetnik," what do you mean? Do you include the JNA

4 in that definition, or do you mean the volunteers, the TO, Seselj's men

5 and such-like?

6 A. Dear, sir, I know very well what a regular army is. To be quite

7 honest, I did not see any Chetniks there. I saw a number of reservists,

8 but I did not see any Chetniks, and I'm thankful for that. No real

9 Chetniks at least.

10 Q. I fully understand that. But you kept using the term Chetniks, so

11 what exactly did you mean? The reservists or active duty JNA officers?

12 A. I meant the reservists. The reservists from Vukovar who put on

13 the military uniform.

14 Q. I am much clearer about it now. Thank you.

15 A few very brief questions. Let me just check. You answered some

16 of them. You were in the hospital from the 17th on, and during those

17 several days that you spent at the hospital, among or from your fellow

18 citizens did you hear that civilians who were not the wounded and who were

19 not members of the medical staff should go to Velepromet rather than go to

20 the hospital? Did you hear anything like that?

21 A. No, I didn't ever.

22 Q. Do you remember, do you know that in those last few days there was

23 a large influx of civilians coming to the hospital?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. We will now turn to the 20th -- but, rather, another question

Page 4919

1 concerning the 19th. You said that you didn't see any JNA members. Did

2 you hear, perhaps, when talking to the people at the hospital, whether on

3 the 19th the International Red Cross and some journalists came, perhaps,

4 to the hospital?

5 A. No, I never heard of that.

6 Q. I will ask you to remember something which might prove difficult

7 for you, and if that is the case, please say so. On the 20th in the

8 morning how late was it when they told you to leave the hospital?

9 A. I can't remember that. All I know is that we leaned against the

10 wall and we had to put our arms up and that they frisked us to see if we

11 had any weapons.

12 Q. As you were leaving the hospital, your wife was asked to come to a

13 meeting?

14 A. Yes, that's how it was. My wife and I split while we were still

15 in the basement. They were informed that all hospital staff had to go to

16 this meeting. Until my return from the barracks, I didn't see my wife.

17 Q. All right. That's what I understood it to be the case [as

18 interpreted].

19 Did your wife perhaps later on tell you how long that meeting went

20 on for?

21 A. No, never.

22 Q. You told us just now, you even showed how they frisked you, how

23 they searched you. Tell us, please, so that all of us here know, what

24 were they looking for, the soldiers who were searching you?

25 A. The soldiers who were searching us were looking for weapons. They

Page 4920

1 frisked us all over, our trousers and the upper body as well. That's what

2 they did.

3 Q. Perhaps we could have it recorded in the transcript that the

4 witness showed on himself exactly how they frisked them.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, please tell me this, if you can: From the moment you came

7 out, and we here in the courtroom have quite a clear picture, because we

8 saw some photographs of that area, you went out through the back door

9 where the corridor is, where the tunnel is, so you went out through that

10 door. From the moment you went out, until you boarded the buses, how much

11 time elapsed?

12 A. I couldn't say. They searched us and it didn't take a long time.

13 Q. So if I were to say 15 minutes, would that be right?

14 A. I can't say. I can't remember. We got on the buses, one by one.

15 I boarded the second bus and that's what I stated here.

16 Q. All right. Let's try it this way: If I described in these terms,

17 after you were searched did you stay there waiting in the column or did

18 you go to the bus immediately after you were searched?

19 A. No, no. That didn't take a long time because there were not that

20 many of us. And then we went from the hospital to the buses. The buses

21 were parked on the other side, near the back door of the hospital towards

22 the cemetery.

23 Q. You mentioned several times today the people that you recognised,

24 who boarded the bus together with you, the second bus coming out of the

25 hospital?

Page 4921

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. These persons, were any of them wounded or patients or were they

3 perhaps hospital employees or civilians?

4 A. Jakov Simunovic, Sime, was a hospital employee. Sime senior was

5 the driver for the Red Cross.

6 Q. What about the others? Were any of them patients?

7 A. None of the people that I mentioned.

8 Q. Thank you. Can you remember the buses were parked there. You

9 said that there were between three and five buses. Did they differ from

10 each other in terms of colour, size, or were the buses similar to each

11 other?

12 A. I couldn't say whether these were JNA buses, I can't remember. At

13 any rate, they were lined one after the other. I can't remember, no. I

14 don't know.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please.

16 [Defence counsel confer]

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Let's continue. Can you tell us, from the moment you boarded the

19 bus how much time passed before the buses set off?

20 A. I couldn't say, but it wasn't long. We moved in the direction

21 towards Sajmiste where the barracks was.

22 Q. I'm interested in the period of time.

23 A. I couldn't say, but it didn't take long.

24 Q. Was it more than half an hour?

25 A. It wasn't more than half an hour.

Page 4922

1 Q. Do you remember whether during that period of time, while you were

2 still waiting on the buses, any soldiers or officers got on the bus to

3 tell you that those who had hospital IDs should get off the bus. Do you

4 remember that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did anybody get off the bus?

7 A. I don't know that. I know that Jakov Simunovic and some others

8 said that they had their IDs and showed them, whereas some people said

9 that they had forgotten their IDs and didn't have them on them. Those who

10 had hospital IDs, they showed them, and there were some who were employed

11 at the hospital but didn't have the IDs on them.

12 Q. When asked by the Prosecutor you said that you remembered Martin

13 Dosen lying on a stretcher.

14 A. No. I didn't see Martin Dosen lying on a stretcher, no. I saw

15 him at the hospital near the entrance.

16 Q. Tell me, when did you see Martin Dosen at the hospital near the

17 entrance?

18 A. I saw Martin at the hospital in the morning. I know everybody in

19 Vukovar, and later on I heard that he had saved Stanislav Avramovic during

20 the war. He transferred him to Rakic's, and this is how he saved his

21 live. Stanislav Avramovic was at the hospital. He asked him for help,

22 but he didn't help him. He said, "Later."

23 I saw Avramovic in front of the hospital too. We used to play

24 football together. I was his coach. He doesn't dare return to Vukovar

25 now. He's now living in America.

Page 4923

1 Q. Yes, we heard some testimony about that. So you didn't see Martin

2 Dosen in front of a bus?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Very well. Do you remember whether all of you on your bus were

5 sitting or was perhaps anybody standing while they were driving you to the

6 barracks?

7 A. Nobody stood on my bus. I don't know about the other buses.

8 Q. Another question: Do you remember as you were approaching the

9 buses, did you board the buses randomly or were all of you told exactly

10 which bus to board?

11 A. No, we boarded them randomly. Nobody told us which bus to board.

12 Q. All right. Now, let us turn to the barracks.

13 A. Fine.

14 Q. You told us that all the buses came together parked in a

15 semi-circle?

16 A. Yes, one behind the other.

17 Q. All right. If you were already asked this, I apologise, but tell

18 me, this mistreatment when the people came to your buses, started

19 threatening you, had rifles and so on, did it go on the whole time until

20 you transferred in to another bus or not?

21 A. No, only in the beginning when the buses just arrived. Nobody

22 tried to defend us. They came to the buses, had rifles there and started

23 shouting, "You ought to be killed," and so on. This was an enraged mob,

24 mob out of control. They had rifles, pistols; however, not a single

25 bullet was fired, sir.

Page 4924

1 Q. All right. We heard testimony here, and you will tell me if this

2 is correct or not, Jakov Simunovic said that this lasted for 10 or 15

3 minutes and then they calmed down.

4 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to say whether it was 10 or 15 minutes,

5 but I can tell you that it didn't last very long. Not long.

6 Sir, let me tell you frankly. I was scared. I didn't look

7 around. The soldiers and reservists who were outside, they were looking

8 to see if they could recognise somebody on a bus. They were looking for

9 familiar faces.

10 Q. And based on your testimony, those were mostly local residents of

11 Vukovar?

12 A. I told you before that I recognised only two soldiers wearing

13 military uniforms. They were reservists. Dule Robija, Dusko Vojnovic,

14 nicknamed Robija.

15 Q. All right, that's one name. Do you remember the other person?

16 A. The other person is nicknamed Kum. While I played for Sloga, I

17 knew him. He's not a normal person. He's not quite all right up there,

18 and he used to live in Negoslavci. He was at the entrance to the barracks

19 with a weapon. He is a crazy person. What can be said about him?

20 Q. I need the assistance of the usher. Do you have your statement in

21 front of you?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. We will read just a brief passage from your statement. English

24 version page 3, paragraph 5. For you it's paragraph 4. It begins with

25 the words: "After some time."

Page 4925

1 Would you now please read this: "In order to get to the buses."

2 Would you please read it out slowly?

3 A. "After some time, somebody came to the bus with a list of names

4 who were called out. My name was among them. I got off the bus and was

5 directed towards an empty bus. I was the first to get on that bus.

6 People got off other buses and came to the bus that I was on. In order to

7 get to the bus, they had to walk between two lines of Chetniks or run a

8 gauntlet. These people beat them with trunches and rifle-butts. Kolesar

9 was badly beaten. At the time he was saying, 'I'm a Ruthenian,' so not a

10 Russian, but a Ruthenian, 'I had nothing to do with the war.' Another

11 person who was beaten was Jakov Simunovic."

12 Q. That's enough. I wanted you to read this in order to clarify

13 something. I suppose that you are here to reaffirm what you had stated to

14 the Prosecutor?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. This is why I asked you at the outset what you meant when you said

17 "Chetniks," because here you used the word "Chetnik" to describe those

18 who beat people who were going on the bus. Therefore, did you mean that

19 those were reservists from Vukovar, these Chetniks?

20 A. I don't know who beat the people. There were civilians among

21 them, reservists and soldiers.

22 Q. Another sentence that you uttered today, when asked by the

23 Prosecutor on page 12, line 24 whether you saw who was beaten as they were

24 moving from one bus to the other, you said, "I put my head down. I didn't

25 see, but I heard them beat Simunovic."

Page 4926

1 A. Yes, that's what I stated and I can confirm that. He was across

2 from me. I put my head down because I was terrified. I didn't look

3 around. I just heard moans. I heard that they were beaten. That they

4 were being beaten.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. I never discussed it with them in Zagreb or at any other time.

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4927

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Can you please just describe this man by the name of Dule Robija?

21 Can you remember his physical appearance, what he looked like?

22 A. Of course I can. We played football together. I helped him. I

23 played with Rijeka, with Borovo, and with Dinamo Vinkovci. He was a very,

24 very good footballer. A very, very good one. I helped him to become the

25 right back with Borovo.

Page 4928

1 Q. I want to know about his physical appearance.

2 A. I don't know, but he wasn't very tall. And later on, when I

3 returned to Vukovar, I was with him.

4 Q. Was he younger than you?

5 A. Yes, a great deal younger.

6 Q. Blond, dark?

7 A. Blond, small.

8 Q. You told us about your return from the barracks to the hospital,

9 you told us about meeting my client and Miroljub Vujovic. I will share

10 with you the position of my client right off. I believe the OTP may be

11 interested in this. Mr. Sljivancanin says it's quite correct that

12 Miroljub Vujovic was there and some other TO people he didn't know. But

13 this is not something that you need to know about.

14 A. Darko Kovacevic was there, too.

15 Q. I'm asking you the following question: Were I to tell you that in

16 relation to each and every one of you who were there, Sljivancanin asked

17 Miroljub Vujovic what he knew about all of you and whether you had taken

18 part in combat, and then Miroljub Vujovic would say that someone did, for

19 example, and this person was sent back to the bus. Do you agree with what

20 my client claims?

21 A. I don't know about the others. I know about myself. Miroljub

22 Vujovic said I had been a loyal citizen of Vukovar up to a point in time,

23 after which point in time my son and I allegedly became Ustashas.

24 Q. Did he say this about your son too, that your son had been

25 involved with Vukovar's defence?

Page 4929

1 A. They knew all, they knew it all, sir. They -- he said that my son

2 was an Ustasha and that I was too. Which we weren't.

3 Q. You mean the locals from Vukovar?

4 A. Yes, that's right, sir. That's precisely who I mean, the locals

5 from Vukovar.

6 Q. One question to wrap it up. I asked you something about Martin

7 Dosen. You said you had seen him in the hospital. He was inside the

8 hospital, as a matter of fact. My question: You didn't see him on that

9 day on the 20th on any sort of stretcher anywhere, anything like that?

10 A. No, I didn't.

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems that we have

13 been quite effective today, all of us, in fact.

14 JUDGE PARKER: It's a wonderful sign of things to come.

15 Yes, Mr. Moore.

16 Re-examination by Mr. Moore:

17 Q. Mr. Vilhelm, can I just ask you one or two questions, please?

18 You told us that when you went to the hospital you saw a guard at

19 the gate and his name was Petkovic. Is that correct?

20 A. No, sir, Mr. Judge, not Petkovic, Perkovic.

21 Q. It's not the Judge speaking on this occasion; it's the Prosecution

22 counsel.

23 A. [In English] Okay. [Interpretation] Perkovic.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 A. Perkovic, P-e-r-k-o-v-i-c. You're welcome.

Page 4930

1 Q. Now, how did you know Mr. Perkovic?

2 A. I knew Mr. Perkovic because he was my daughter's friend. They

3 were schoolmates.

4 Q. And your daughter, do you know the year that your daughter was

5 born? I don't want to know her date of birth; that's impossible for most

6 fathers. But do you know the year when your daughter was born?

7 A. My daughter was born in 1966.

8 Q. I would like you, if you would be kind enough, please, to look at

9 the list that you have been shown.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one thing I would like to ask

11 you. The reference -- I'm not sure about the subject matter. I may be

12 jumping the gun on this one, but I have no idea which of us referred to

13 this on cross-examination.

14 MR. MOORE: It was put by Mr. Domazet in cross-examination. There

15 was cross-examination on his statement and there was reference and indeed

16 the question was, was there -- was anyone on the gate, if my memory serves

17 me correctly, and that's when the name was given. I see Mr. Domazet

18 nodding in agreement with that. Thank you very much.

19 I wonder if we could have it in focus, please, starting with M and

20 ending at P.

21 Q. Now, do you see that, Mr. Vilhelm?

22 A. Yes, I do. The letter M, Medjesi, Andrija, and Medjesi, Zoran.

23 Q. Thank you very much. But I don't want you to look at that part.

24 I would like you to look right at the very bottom.

25 A. What else then?

Page 4931

1 Q. Well, I am going to hopefully tell you. There are three names of

2 Perkovic, Damija, Jusef and Stjepan. Now, you've told us --

3 A. I think it's Perkovic, Josip, but I can't be certain.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours. But

6 the last name that's been read out isn't Perkovic. It's Petrovic,

7 Stjepan.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said Josip Perkovic and Stjepan

9 Petrovic -- Perkovic, Josip is the second to last; and Stjepan Petrovic is

10 the last name on the page.

11 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much, indeed.

12 Q. And which one do you think was the guard at the hospital?

13 A. When they came to the hospital who was there? Well, just a

14 student with a uniform. He was standing there stopping people on the way

15 out when they were taking the wounded out, and he was probably guarding

16 the entrance.

17 Q. Mr. Vilhelm, will you just listen to the question for a moment, if

18 it's possible? You've told us about this young man being friendly

19 with your daughter. Do you remember telling us that?

20 A. That's Josip Perkovic.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Now, can I deal with Josip Perkovic? Well,

22 perhaps I can leave the question in relation to that.

23 I want to move on. There is a certain writing on that document,

24 but I want to deal with your statement for a moment. You have been asked

25 by Mr. Domazet about your statement. And you have been asked about

Page 4932

1 various parts of it.

2 A. That's right.

3 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour forgive me a moment?

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I'm told that the following document is

6 in the e-court system. It is 04668267. And I suppose the best way of

7 describing it is an addendum to the witness statement that was originally

8 compiled in 1995. I wonder if that could be placed on the screen, please?

9 Has anybody got that on their screen? I certainly don't. Shall I

10 repeat the number? 04668267, 268.

11 Your Honour, I still don't have it. Perhaps we can see if we've

12 got it in Sanction and we can try and sort it out in Sanction.

13 Well, I have the document now, but I've only part of the document.

14 I wonder, is it possible for the document to be put in a way that I can

15 actually read part of it? I've got the B/C/S and then I've got half of

16 the English. Is there any way that that can be put in a way that can be

17 read, please? I've got -- it's not in focus and I cannot read it. Now I

18 can read it, but I can only read half of it.

19 JUDGE PARKER: It can be moved progressively up, if you would like

20 that, until you reach what you want to read.

21 MR. MOORE: Well, thank you very much.

22 I wonder, then, if that's the case, perhaps the best starting port

23 is 8268 and we'll go to the very bottom of that, which is a signature. I

24 also happen to have a hard copy, if that helps, to give to the witness.

25 That's page 1 of 2.

Page 4933

1 Q. Mr. Rudolf, can you see that particular item on the screen? Do

2 you see a signature -- did you see a signature there?

3 A. Yes. The 18th of January, 2006.

4 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour forgive me one moment?

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]


7 Q. We have got a date, the 18th of the 1st, 2006 on that particular

8 page.

9 And can we look at the other page, please? Can we scroll down to

10 the bottom? Again, that signature, is that your signature on the page?

11 Can you see it?

12 A. Yes. It's mine.

13 Q. Well, you have been asked various questions about your statement

14 and you were asked really in relation to three topics. Do you remember

15 that you were asked about Dr. Bosanac and the fact that you had said in

16 your statement that Dr. Bosanac had told people to put on white coats? Do

17 you remember that question being asked of you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. If we look at this particular document and we scroll

20 up to the top of it - thank you - and can we move across so we can see the

21 English? Can we scroll across even more, please?

22 Well, I'll deal with it as best I can, because I have not got it

23 all on my screen.

24 But is it right to say that when you were seen by people from the

25 Office of the Prosecutor you indicated to them, I think it was actually in

Page 4934

1 December, but you signed the document on the 18th of the 1st, 2006, that

2 in actual fact you never heard Dr. Bosanac say these words, it was only

3 later on you learnt that there were some individuals in the hospital who

4 put them on, white coats? Is that right or not?

5 A. That's true. I found out later, I heard from my son who was at

6 the meeting.

7 MR. MOORE: I think Mr. Vasic had an objection. No, he doesn't.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Let us move then please to the next

9 question. The question was in respect of the final paragraph of your

10 statement that you had said "on the 19th of November I went to the

11 hospital." Can we scroll down, please, to what I will call the second

12 amendment?

13 Is it right to say, again, that when you saw representatives of

14 the Office of the Prosecutor you amended that to saying that it should not

15 be the 19th, it should be the 17th?

16 A. That's true. I did say that and I'm ready to confirm that.

17 Q. Thank you very much. And just -- there were two other amendments.

18 Can we just deal with one final one? Can we scroll down, please, to

19 perhaps page 2 of 2, if that's possible? 268. Again, I just -- I can't

20 read mine at all.

21 If we deal with the questions in relation to your statement, you

22 were asked about the page number, 27868. It says: "The next morning of

23 the 20th" in the statement, is it right in your addendum, you said that it

24 should be replaced with the words: "In the morning of the 20th." Is that

25 right?

Page 4935

1 A. That's right. Accurate.

2 Q. Thank you very much. And perhaps we've got it already, if we can

3 just scroll down one more time to the next correction, please.

4 The words in your statement that: "I'm Russian." And in actual

5 fact what it was was "rusins," and that was an amendment that was put in

6 in January?

7 A. Yes. I think Kolesar was a Ruthenian from Petrovac. He had a

8 brother who was a Ruthenian, that much is certain.

9 Q. Thank you very much. So in actual --

10 A. You're welcome.

11 Q. In actual fact, the statement that was taken from you was in 1995,

12 these amendments were made in 2006, signed in 2006 in January. Did any

13 member of the Office of the Prosecutor ever approach you in between that

14 time to check the accuracy of your statement?

15 A. When they came to see me, I told them everything was accurate.

16 The statement I gave -- the amendments, rather, that I meant, I said that

17 everything was now accurate and that this was the only real thing.

18 Q. And was that the first opportunity you had had to change your

19 statement?

20 A. That was the first opportunity when they came to see me.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. In actual fact ...

23 Q. Now, can I just deal with one other matter. I'd like to deal with

24 the list that has been used by the Defence and which I have referred to.

25 I wonder if it can be put, it's on Sanction, can it be put on to the

Page 4936

1 screen, please? Thank you very much.

2 I've got it very clearly now. Has everybody else got it? Thank

3 you.

4 Now, I don't want to go through the complete detail of every name,

5 but can we just work out exactly what occurred when you came to The Hague?

6 Is it right that you came The Hague, I believe, last Thursday, I think

7 that was the 16th of February. Is that right or not? Can you remember?

8 A. Yes, that's right. I spent the night in Zagreb, and the next day

9 I left for The Hague.

10 Q. And what day did you arrive at The Hague? I don't need a date,

11 just approximately.

12 A. Friday. I don't know the date. It was a Friday.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Now, can we just deal with what occurred

14 here at The Hague? Is it right that you were spoken to by the young lady

15 who sits on my right, Ms. Regue? Can you just look over here for a

16 moment, please?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And is it right that she spoke to you about your statement?

19 A. That's right. She spoke to me about your statement.

20 Q. And with regard to the discussion she had with you, is it right

21 that you were asked to remember the names of the people who travelled with

22 you on the bus to the JNA barracks and the bus that returned to the

23 hospital?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Now, can we just move on in time? If we just deal with today,

Page 4937

1 which is the 23rd, you have given evidence today for the first time. Is

2 it correct that you saw me yesterday for the first time, discussing your

3 evidence? Is that right or not?

4 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe it is not quite right to ask

7 these leading questions, when did you see me for the first time. It is

8 just too leading in nature. It's not about the subject matter. We are

9 not objecting to that, but we believe a little more caution when asking

10 the questions would be called for.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

12 Mr. Moore.

13 MR. MOORE: Of course I will do it that way if my learned friend

14 wishes.

15 Q. Can you remember when it was that you had a meeting with me about

16 your evidence?

17 A. It was in the morning.

18 Q. And which day was that?

19 A. I don't know. It's difficult for me to remember the exact day.

20 Q. Well, I am going to lead, and the -- was it yesterday morning --

21 A. Monday, perhaps. Yesterday -- it wasn't yesterday. It wasn't

22 yesterday morning. I was here yesterday. I was waiting to appear in the

23 courtroom from at about 3.00 yesterday. But I didn't even see the

24 gentleman yesterday. I didn't get to see him.

25 Q. All right. I'll not take -- I'll not deal with this matter any

Page 4938

1 further. I have to deal with it another way, if I may, which may require

2 me giving a statement.

3 MR. MOORE: I have no further questions for the witness.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Moore.

5 You will be pleased to know, Mr. Rudolf, that that concludes the

6 questions -- Mr. Vilhelm, that the counsel have for you. That the Chamber

7 would like to thank you for your trouble in coming to The Hague and for

8 the assistance you have been able to give us. Now, you are now, of

9 course, able to return to your home.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to thank the Chamber for

11 hearing me out. Thank you very much to all those who heard me out.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

13 Now, we've been taken a little by surprise with time. In the

14 circumstances, we must adjourn now for the evening. We resume tomorrow

15 morning at 9.00 in number two court.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.42 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day of

18 February, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.