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17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE PARKER: The screens.

19 Mr. Vasic.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I am trying

21 to take advantage of this break as we are waiting for the witness, to

22 raise an issue on behalf of the Defence team he is. This is that we

23 discussed yesterday, and it is not entirely clear to us. I will put to

24 you now the position of the Defence in view of Rule 90(H) and I would like

25 for us to receive instructions from you, from the Trial Chamber, as to

1 whether our position is correct or not. Yesterday we discussed, based on

2 the objection raised by my learned friend in relation to the

3 cross-examination of Mr. Borovic and also in relation to Rule 90(H), item

4 (ii), and the obligation of the Defence to put to the witness the nature

5 of their defence in relation to questions put to the witness in

6 cross-examination.

7 The Defence believes that Rule 90(H) which regulates the manner

8 and scope of cross-examination is designed in such a way that the

9 obligation mentioned under item (ii) only pertains to a case when

10 cross-examination is outside of the topics covered in

11 examination-in-chief, and is about the facts concerning which a witness

12 can give a relevant statement in relation to the position of the examining

13 party. It is opinion of the Defence that, based on this, it means that if

14 Defence is cross-examining a witness about issues raised within

15 examination-in-chief, or if they're examining a witness in relation to his

16 or her credibility, then the Defence is not duty-bound to put its position

17 to the witness.

18 As for 90(H)(ii) which, in view of the Defence pertains to this

19 special case of cross-examination which covers topics outside of

20 examination-in-chief, we believe that it was included within the rule in

21 order to regulate in these special circumstances of cross-examination any

22 situations in which a witness could be tricked whereby he would not be

23 informed of the position of the Defence and that this creates a fair

24 environment between the witness and the examining counsel. This is not a

25 matter that concerns Prosecution in any way. Our position is that these

1 provisions do not pertain to those parts of cross-examination which are

2 covered by examination-in-chief or verifying the credibility of the

3 witness. Your Honours, I would like to know whether we are correct or not

4 in interpreting it in this way.

5 JUDGE PARKER: The position, Mr. Vasic, is different from your

6 understanding. The two provisions of the Rule, subparagraphs (i) and (ii)

7 stand separately. (i) is talking about the normal case, and it is, in

8 fact, limiting the range of cross-examination that can be made by a

9 witness, limiting, say, Defence to what is dealt with in evidence in chief

10 and the matter of credibility. Subsection (ii) or subparagraph (ii) of

11 (H) is dealing with a separate and distinct and additional subject. And

12 what it is saying is that you not only may, but you shall, it is an

13 obligation, put to a witness who is able to give evidence relevant to your

14 case, the parts of your case that appear to be different from, that appear

15 to contradict the evidence of that witness. So if you've got a witness

16 who's talking about something that's relevant to your case and the

17 evidence of that witness appears to be in some way different from your

18 case, in short your obligation is to put to that witness the essence of

19 your case so that the witness has an opportunity to comment on the

20 difference between the case as you see it and the case as the witness --

21 or it's not the case, but that the evidence of the witness about those

22 circumstances.

23 So this isn't in any way limited by subsection -- by subparagraph

24 (i) of paragraph (H). It's additional and separate, and the object is to

25 ensure that the witness is in a position and is given the opportunity to

1 comment on what will be your evidence and your different case when you

2 come to call it. Is that clear enough?

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. It is

4 clear.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Borovic.

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I will be very brief. Perhaps it is

7 clear to my friend Vasic, but it is not clear to me and I will explain

8 briefly why not. I understand this when it comes to the issues raised in

9 examination-in-chief. Yesterday we had a very specific case. The

10 Prosecutor reacted claiming that I have to put to the witness something in

11 relation to the information conveyed about Zoran from Karaburma. If we

12 discuss this in examination-in-chief and in cross, I do not think that I

13 still need to put the position of the Defence to this witness.

14 Notwithstanding your explanation, perhaps we're speaking of two different

15 things and perhaps yesterday the Prosecutor made a mistake when it comes

16 to that specific example. Therefore, if the matter does not involve a new

17 issue, but rather an issue raised in examination-in-chief and in cross, do

18 we still have to, in accordance with Rule 90 (H) (ii), to put our case to

19 the witness?

20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, is the short answer, Mr. Borovic. If you, in

21 your cross-examination, don't get to put your case, the fact that you have

22 asked some questions about it isn't good enough. You've got to go there

23 step further and make clear where your case is materially different from

24 his evidence. And that way there is an opportunity then for the witness

25 to comment on the different case that you have.

1 Now, yesterday I think it's probably fair to say that Mr. Smith

2 didn't give your cross-examination full measure. You probably had gone

3 far enough. But we cleared that up, so don't use yesterday as a complete

4 example of what this is about. But you've got to put your case. Can I

5 try and think of a quick example? A witness is called who says, "yes, I

6 saw accused X here and there, two places." And you might cross-examine

7 his evidence about when he says he saw the accused X in those two places.

8 If it is part of your case that actually he saw accused X on a third

9 occasion, which he hasn't spoken about, you've got to put to him that

10 there was also a third occasion which he hasn't mentioned in his

11 examination-in-chief. Understand that? Yeah. Okay.

12 Now, Mr. Moore, you've been left out of this, not by design, but

13 is there anything that I have left unsaid that ought to be said that you

14 would submit?

15 MR. MOORE: No, thank you. That is our understanding of the

16 articles. Thank you.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Now, thank you then. I understand, Mr. Berghofer

18 has been here and has been waiting patiently.

19 Could you please stand, sir? If you would take the card and read

20 aloud the affirmation, please.

21 WITNESS: DRAGUTIN BERGHOFER

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.

3 Examination by Mr. Moore:

4 Q. Thank you very much. Could we have your full name, please?

5 A. Dragutin Berghofer, nicknamed Beli.

6 Q. And would you be kind enough, please, to tell us your date of

7 birth?

8 A. 29th of October 1940.

9 Q. And how would you describe your ethnicity?

10 A. Well, I was always recorded as a Croat.

11 Q. Thank you very much. To assist the Court, this witness, I hope,

12 will be giving evidence in relation to the hospital, the JNA barracks,

13 Ovcara and Velepromet.

14 I want to deal, if I may, please, in very general terms. What was

15 your involvement in Vukovar in November 1991?

16 A. In November 1991 I worked in the logistics. Do you need the date?

17 Q. Well, if you can tell us how long you were involved in logistics,

18 that would be helpful.

19 A. Your Honour, I have to start from the 24th of August. It was then

20 that I left my house because the JNA had destroyed, had razed to the

21 ground 120 metres of residential premises for which I had a 20-year

22 mortgage. So the last day I was in my house was the 24th of August. It

23 was right next to the barracks. And then I went down to another house I

24 had, where I had a commercial premises. This was in an area called

25 Slavija, 400 metres from the barracks. This is where I spent the rest of

1 my time in Vukovar, until the 17th of November 1991.

2 Q. Well, I may come back to deal with that period subsequently, but

3 let us move on in time to the 17th of November. On the 17th of November,

4 did you go to the hospital?

5 A. On the 17th of November we went into what we called a

6 break-through. We wanted to leave Vukovar.

7 Q. And did you succeed?

8 A. No, we did not. Because up there -- how should I describe it,

9 they started killing us. I was all scared and there were another five

10 people with me, so we returned to the hospital. 30 minutes before the

11 midnight ushering in the 18th of November.

12 Q. How many of you had been involved in the attempted break-out?

13 A. Since I grew up in that area near the hospital, I led the column.

14 There were almost 350 of us.

15 Q. And how many people went back to the hospital? Can you give us an

16 idea?

17 A. Yes, I can. Marko Mandic, his wife, Dr. Aleksijevic, his wife,

18 Jofra [phoen] Jankovic, and myself, as far as I can remember right now.

19 Q. Can I just then deal -- again, I'm trying to move on in time, but

20 when you were at the hospital do you remember the JNA and other military

21 forces arriving at the hospital itself?

22 A. The first I saw him -- saw them was on the 19th of November at

23 around 1600 hours.

24 Q. Did you recognise any of the people who came to the hospital?

25 A. Since I was in a room together with Dr. Ivankovic and a couple of

1 other doctors, I peeked out and I noticed Bogdan Kuzmic with young

2 soldiers. They were questioning Stanko Duvnjak who had been wounded, and

3 I remember well that Stanko said, "What could I do?" And obviously I

4 retreated straight away back into the room, and I didn't come out again

5 until the next day, the 20th, that is.

6 Q. Can we just deal with the form of the questioning of Stanko? Can

7 you give the court a picture of what was happening at that time and the

8 general atmosphere?

9 A. He was sitting, because he had been wounded, and so he was wearing

10 his pyjamas, and Kuzmic, surrounded by two young soldiers, was there, and

11 the only thing I heard was the words, "And what could I do?" That was

12 all.

13 Q. Let's move on then in time, if we may. You said you didn't come

14 out again until the next day, the 20th, so let us move on to the 20th of

15 November, please. When was it that you came out on the 20th?

16 A. On the 20th in the morning at around 7.00 a.m. I was saying hello

17 to Dr. Ivankovic and a tall officer came along, he had a booming voice,

18 and he was a tall man, and he said, "Doctor, what are we waiting for?

19 It's -- we're at war. The wounded as well as civilians should go to the

20 left and the hospital staff to the right." So basically it meant that the

21 hospital staff had to go through the main gates of the hospital as you

22 come from the Lola Ribar street and the rest of us, we had to go to the

23 left, which was called Sapudl, but I think it's a different name, Abozida

24 [phoen] or something. At any rate, the lightly wounded and the civilians

25 were supposed to go out through the side door.

1 Q. May I just deal with the tall man that you have described? Can

2 you remember if he was wearing uniform or not?

3 A. He was so remarkable and striking that I wouldn't forget him even

4 if I lived for another 50 years. He was tall, a strong man, he was

5 wearing a soldier's cap, a uniform, a life jacket, and he had a moustache,

6 and he was so striking that I don't think it's possible to forget a man

7 like that.

8 Q. And what was his overall attitude that morning, towards the people

9 that he was addressing?

10 A. I didn't hear him ordering us to be searched, but we were lined up

11 along the wall towards the entrance, or rather the exit, the gate and I'm

12 talking about the side-gate here. And they started searching us.

13 Q. Did you ever hear his name subsequently?

14 A. Yes. When I returned back from prison and when I bought a TV set

15 in 1993, he was shown on TV and he was arguing on the bridge.

16 Q. And did you hear his name?

17 A. A blond, rather nice-looking man, but it was only like that on the

18 screen.

19 Q. But I'm talking about the tall man with the moustache, did you

20 ever hear the name of that man?

21 A. Not until the time when I bought the TV set in 1993. And then he

22 was shown when he was arguing on another bridge, and he was arguing with a

23 peacekeeper. Apparently it was a British peacekeeper, UN TFS staff

24 member.

25 Q. Thank you. And what was the name that you heard of this tall man?

1 A. Well, it was shown on the news as well, and he was always referred

2 to as Major Sljivancanin. And so it was quite clear that that was the man

3 who was in command at the hospital.

4 Q. And when you saw him on television, this man on television, was

5 that the same man that you believed you saw that morning, the morning of

6 the 20th?

7 A. 100 per cent, yes.

8 Q. Let us deal, if we may, with the exiting from the hospital, and

9 you said that "they" started searching us. Who started searching you?

10 Can you tell the Court, please?

11 A. Since the hospital was surrounded by young soldiers and young

12 soldiers were searching us as well, and some older ones as well. They

13 were looking for weapons, even such things as screwdrivers, knives, bottle

14 openers or whatever, any metal objects.

15 Q. Were you searched?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And can you tell us then what happened to you after you had been

18 searched, please?

19 A. Nothing special. I had quite a bit of money in my two pockets and

20 the money was given to me by a member of hospital staff because she had

21 too much. And I heard, once we had all been searched, I heard

22 Major Sljivancanin say that we should be put on buses, that was his

23 command.

24 Q. And to whom did he give that command?

25 A. To somebody who didn't seem to have a rank, he was about 40 years

1 old.

2 Q. In any event, as a result of that command were you placed on a bus

3 along with others?

4 A. Yes. As buses were loaded they would drive on a little bit. And

5 some people who worked at the hospital had no IDs, so they too were forced

6 on to these buses.

7 Q. How many buses did you see at that time outside the hospital?

8 A. Six buses and the licence plates were Zrenjanin.

9 Q. I will deal with the licence plate now, but I will come and deal

10 with the people with no ID. How is it you know what the licence plates

11 were that morning?

12 A. Quite simply, as I was getting on the bus the other bus drove on

13 ahead a little bit, and I looked at the licence plates and I could see,

14 and also I used to work at the CasnaTrans [phoen] warehouse for a while in

15 the past, and so I was interested.

16 Q. And where is this particular licence plate location? Can you tell

17 us if it's Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia?

18 A. Look, since Yugoslavia at that time was still intact, and I was

19 interested in football, and that club, presumably called Proleter from

20 Zrenjanin, was always competing with Borovo in the second division, so

21 that's somewhere near Belgrade near Baca, somewhere near Belgrade.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, you told us that you were placed on the bus and

23 you also told us that some people from the hospital or some people who

24 work the at the hospital had no IDs and so they were forced on to these

25 buses. That is the evidence you have given. Can you remember any of the

1 names of the people who were forced on to the buses, the people who had no

2 IDs from the hospital?

3 A. I'm just going to say a couple of words about why they didn't have

4 any ID. They didn't need it initially, but since there was a lot of

5 shelling day after day, and they no longer had any homes to go to, and let

6 me come back to your original question. I do remember that there was a

7 person called Varenica. I think he was a log smith at the hospital. And

8 there was somebody called Vlaho, he was the driver, he used to drive the

9 ambulance.

10 Q. Can we just deal with the bus that you got on, so I just want to

11 talk about your bus. How many people, approximately, were on your bus

12 when it drove off?

13 A. That bus had about 40 seats, roughly speaking, don't take my word

14 for it, there may have been 48. But there were certainly 40.

15 Q. And if we deal with that bus, are you able to say the ethnicity of

16 the people on that bus as far as you were aware?

17 A. 90 per cent Croats.

18 Q. And are you able to assist us, the balance of how many male, how

19 many female, were on your bus as far as you were able to assess?

20 A. In all of those six buses -- well there was only one woman, and

21 her name was Dragica Tuskan. And as to another woman, Markobasic, I'm not

22 sure, but I saw her at Ovcara.

23 Q. Can we deal with the buses themselves? Are you able to say what

24 time it was the bus left the JNA -- sorry, left the hospital to go to the

25 JNA barracks?

1 A. One by one they retreated by about 20 metres, and it was at about

2 quarter past 9.00, and then they set off in the direction of the barracks.

3 Q. Prior to leaving the hospital, and when I say leaving I mean

4 leaving on the buses, did you see any monitors, international monitors at

5 the hospital?

6 A. No, I did not see them. There was nobody on that side.

7 Q. Let us move on then, please, to the JNA barracks. Now, just

8 dealing with the bus itself, can you remember if there were any soldiers,

9 JNA soldiers inside the bus?

10 A. There were two young soldiers on every bus, at the doors of the

11 bus. We reached the barracks, we stopped in a circle and I was on the

12 fourth bus and they were parked in the shape of a crescent, and for about

13 20 minutes nobody was allowed on the buses. There were soldiers, regular

14 soldiers, as well as reservists all around. As well as the

15 paramilitaries. Because I knew quite a few of them. For example, my

16 neighbour, Djuro Latinovic, he was showing his knife and making gestures,

17 indicating that he would slit my throat and cut off my head, and then

18 Bulic Milos Milan, he was shouting, "What is it, Beli? There is no more

19 soccer at the pond."

20 After those 20 minutes a soldier got on the bus.

21 Professor Licina, who was a math teacher, got off and Hadzija and Kolesar

22 who was the husband of the head nurse at the hospital, Biba. Thereupon I

23 saw them dragging other people outside. My first thought was, lucky them,

24 somebody must have rescued them. 10 seconds later I changed my mind as I

25 saw them being beaten up ferociously. They were kicked, beaten by

1 rifle-butts, and punched. And that military bus was not all that big and

2 it drove out of the barracks and turned left in the direction of

3 Negoslavci, as we used to say. At that very moment you all know that

4 barracks have fire extinguishers in case of fire, then they have sandbags

5 and all that, so they smashed all that. They took the handles off spades

6 and rakes and all the other implements and shovels, and they pushed a cry

7 like an Indian tribe who managed to get their hands on a cowboy and it was

8 a kind of a jubilation, and they got into a Yugo car, some five or six of

9 them crowded into that car, and they drove behind the bus.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to just deal with that part of the

11 evidence, which has been of course quite a long answer. You have told us

12 that the buses parked in a semi-circle, and you have told us also about

13 after 20 minutes a soldier getting on to the bus. Were you able or are

14 you able to tell us to what unit the soldier who got on the bus belonged

15 to? Whether he was regular JNA, TOs, or paramilitaries? Can you help us

16 with that?

17 A. I can't really confirm it now, because back then I wasn't too sure

18 what it was, but the person was wearing a uniform.

19 Q. And when you arrived at the barracks and pulled up in this

20 semi-circle, were there any people outside who saw your buses arrive?

21 A. I can't confirm that. I didn't see it because I was sitting

22 behind a driver.

23 Q. So can you tell us then, please, about the people who were being

24 taken off the bus? You've told us about Kolesar, and Latina [sic], and I

25 believe Hamzija, is that right?

1 A. I mentioned Latinovic walking around the bus and threatening us

2 with a knife. And Professor Licina, Hidek, and Kolesar, who was the head

3 nurse's, Biba's husband who worked at the hospital and they got off the

4 bus.

5 Q. And what happened to them when they got off the bus?

6 A. I do not know.

7 Q. Well, where did they then go after they were taken off the bus?

8 A. I do not know.

9 Q. Well, you have told us in your evidence that you saw them being

10 taken off the bus, and then it seems to me that you suggested that you saw

11 them being beaten. Now, I don't know whether it's translation or the way

12 I've put the question. Can you clarify that for us, please?

13 A. I didn't see the three of them being beaten, but the ones who were

14 on the buses, number 1, 2 and 3. They were being beaten.

15 Q. And the buses, numbers 1, 2 and 3, where were the people being

16 beaten? Outside or inside the bus?

17 A. On the military buses when they were being loaded or made to board

18 those buses, that is to say the seventh bus, the special military bus, and

19 it has nothing to do with the other six buses.

20 Q. But can I just stop you for a moment? You have told us that you

21 pulled up into a semi-circle, you have told us that some people got off

22 your bus, you have told us the names, and you've told us that you had seen

23 other people being beaten towards a military bus. Now, you've not told us

24 about the military bus. Where did the military bus come from? Can you

25 tell us about that, please?

1 A. He was parked there at the barracks. It was -- it was there

2 already, that bus.

3 Q. And did you see how many people were being placed on that military

4 bus, approximately?

5 A. Between 12 and 14.

6 Q. And the people who were being placed on the military bus, how were

7 they being treated?

8 A. I think this is what I've already mentioned; very badly, very

9 ferociously. And so I changed my mind straight away, the minute I saw

10 them being punched, hit by rifle-butts, kicked and pushed about, so you

11 can only imagine how bad it was.

12 Q. But the question I have for you is this: Who was doing the

13 beating?

14 A. The soldiers who were at the barracks.

15 Q. Did you -- you've already told us that you saw some young JNA

16 soldiers. Are you able to tell us whether there were regular JNA soldiers

17 at the barracks when you arrived?

18 A. I've already mentioned that there were two young soldiers on each

19 bus, and there were soldiers in the barracks, of course, as well. And

20 they were talking around and they were watching the scene, and they were

21 there as well.

22 Q. And did any of those soldiers stop the men from being beaten?

23 A. No, no, no. Not at all. Those people who had been beaten will

24 not live to tell the story, they're not there. I found them at Ovcara.

25 Their heads were all swollen up, they were covered in blood, they were

1 fainting several times.

2 Q. Mr. Berghofer, I would like you please, just to listen to the

3 question, because I try and keep my questions in compartments. We're

4 talking about the JNA barracks only at this time, and I have asked you,

5 did you see any of the JNA soldiers try to stop the beating, just at the

6 JNA barracks?

7 A. Your Honour, I already said that. I said that nobody tried to do

8 that.

9 Q. How long did you stay at the JNA barracks?

10 A. If we set out at 9.15 from the hospital and arrived at Ovcara at

11 1330, that means roughly four hours.

12 Q. You have told us about a man called Latinovic. Now, how was

13 Latinovic behaving through this period at the JNA barracks only?

14 A. He went around the buses, threatened, but he wasn't alone doing

15 that. There were some 15 men doing that; however he is my neighbour,

16 that's why I remembered him. He lived three houses away from me.

17 Q. And the people who were with Latinovic, were they in uniform or

18 not?

19 A. They were in uniforms. Bulic Milos was there as well. His name

20 is Milan Bulic Milos, he did not have a uniform. Zoric was there as well,

21 as was Mugosa.

22 Q. And how were they behaving to the people in the buses? Can you

23 tell the Court exactly how it was they were behaving and what you felt, if

24 anything?

25 A. They didn't get on my bus, which was the fourth bus. Only one

1 soldier got on, the one who took those three off the bus. As far as I

2 remember, Bulic, Zoric, or his sons, did not get on the bus. However,

3 there was a lot of screaming because those were the ones who were busy

4 with something else, they were destroying fire extinguishers.

5 Q. Let us move on, if we can, please, to Ovcara. Now, you've told us

6 that you got to Ovcara at about 1.30 in the afternoon; is that correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And were you able to see if the same buses who had pulled up in

9 the semi-circle also went as a group to Ovcara?

10 A. Your Honour, I naturally saw that. We were taken by a military

11 vehicle called Campagnola, which is a kind of a combat vehicle, a military

12 vehicle, that's what it's called, Campagnola. They were in front, and we

13 were behind. Young soldiers were still on the buses with us at the door.

14 Q. Can we deal, please, then, with your arrival at Ovcara? You have

15 told us 1.30. Why do you think that you arrived at around about 1.30?

16 A. Because I had a pocket-watch, and I looked at it. The sun was

17 high up. It was a lovely day.

18 Q. How long did you stay on the buses at Ovcara? I'm just talking

19 about yourself and your bus at the moment.

20 A. About 10 minutes. Until those in front of us were unloaded.

21 Q. And when you were unloaded, what happened to you, please?

22 A. I went out through the back door. Right next to that door was my

23 neighbour, Goran Mugosa, nicknamed Kustro, who was 21 years old. He was

24 in civilian clothes. Around him was a ditch, a type of a ditch full of

25 things, items. Personal IDs, bags, small suitcases, and many other items

1 that people had taken along. I stood next to Mugosa, spread my arms, and

2 then he searched my pockets and took from two pockets a large amount of

3 money which wasn't mine. They belonged to a nurse from the hospital.

4 Then I went to go to the gauntlet, which was eight metres away. And then

5 they got to me with their shoes, fists into my face. I was hit on the

6 head by Dado Djukic next to my right ear, who had crutches because he had

7 been wounded in the leg. My head split open right away. It was only God

8 who saved me from falling down. I have no idea how I managed to get

9 inside. And then Damjan [phoen], Gaspar and another young man, they had

10 been severely beaten at the entrance into the hangar with sticks and other

11 implements.

12 Once I entered and saw Zeljko Begov my neighbour, a young chap,,

13 then I also saw Ante Bodruzic, they had been brought in there earlier in

14 the military vehicle. Their heads were swollen up twice the regular size,

15 their own mothers would not have recognised them. And also other men

16 whose last names I don't know.

17 Q. Can I just deal now with that evidence that you've given? You

18 have told us that you got off a bus and you have described a gauntlet.

19 What do you mean by a gauntlet? Can you describe to this Court what it is

20 you mean by that?

21 A. Well, a gauntlet, how shall I describe this to you? On the left

22 and on the right, on both sides of the hangar entrance there were four to

23 five men lined. Let's say there was a total of 10 of them. It was

24 impossible for anyone to enter without them beating you severely.

25 Q. And who was in the gauntlet? I don't mean whether you recognised

1 anyone, we'll deal with that later, but were they civilians, were they

2 military, were they wearing uniforms, can you describe to the Court who

3 was actually inside or involved in the gauntlet?

4 A. Milos Bulic, Milan, who did not have a uniform, and the Mugosa kid

5 who had taken money from me, and this is something he admitted in

6 Belgrade, only them, the rest were in uniforms. Next to them were young

7 soldiers.

8 Q. Did you see if the young soldiers tried to stop the beatings given

9 out as you went through the gauntlet?

10 A. No. Only one soldier took Vile Karlovic aside.

11 Q. And how hard were these people in the gauntlet hitting the

12 individual who were coming from the bus into the hangar? Can you describe

13 to this Court how severe the beatings were?

14 A. I don't know if the civilised world will be able to comprehend

15 this. It is very difficult to describe this. You can't even see this in

16 the movies, the beatings were terrible. People lost their teeth. There

17 was so much blood, once we entered the hangar this straw was strewn on the

18 floor and it was all covered in blood, it's hard to describe it. They

19 were kicking, hitting, yelling, screaming, saying, "Ustashas, fuck your

20 mothers," and so on.

21 Q. And are you able to help us or to inform us whether all the people

22 who came from the buses went through that gauntlet into the hangar?

23 A. Well, yes, everybody did. Somebody took longer to enter the

24 hangar and somebody went in quicker, some even fell. When my turn came

25 they had already disembarked three buses.

1 Q. You have told us about what you have described as the military

2 bus, and you have described seeing someone that you knew whose head was

3 twice the size that it normally would be. Now, do you remember giving

4 that evidence about 10 minutes ago? Can you remember if you saw --

5 A. Yes, yes, I remember.

6 Q. Can you remember if you saw any other people from that military

7 bus who were also in the Ovcara hangar when you arrived?

8 A. Yes, certainly. I was born in Vukovar, and I can tell you that I

9 recognised almost 100 of them, however, I didn't know all of their names.

10 These were young lads, they could have been my sons. I was a friend of

11 their father's. There was some even 16-year-olds there, and there were

12 some people who were 70.

13 Q. And how would you describe their physical condition when you

14 arrived at the hangar? You've told us about one whose head was twice its

15 normal size, what about the condition of the others? Had they been beaten

16 or not?

17 A. All I know is that Ante Bodruzic, his head was twice the regular

18 size, his eyes were shut, Zeljko Begov, the same. The other lads who were

19 roughly their age were lads of some 27 years. Zeljko Begov was my

20 neighbour, so it was easy for me to recognise him. As for Ante Bodruzic,

21 he had brought some furniture to my shop to reupholster it, this is how I

22 got to know him. There were some other fellows there, but I wasn't able

23 to register all of them and remember them, however I saw them.

24 Q. Let us just deal, please, with the inside of the hangar.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, I'm looking at the time, and we've got

1 about three minutes left on the tape. Seeing you're moving to a new

2 subject, I think we'd better break at this point.

3 We will have an adjournment now for 20 minutes or so and resume at

4 6.00, so that will give you a chance to have a little break now.

5 --- Recess taken at 5.39 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Mr. Moore.

8 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

9 Q. Can I just return, please, to the topic that I had mentioned to

10 you just before the adjournment, and that is I want to deal with inside

11 the hangar at Ovcara. So just deal, if we may, with that one topic. When

12 you went into the hangar itself, were there any people already in there?

13 A. There were very many people there inside.

14 Q. And would you be able to -- would you be able to assess the number

15 of number who were already inside when you went in?

16 A. I reasoned along these lines: If we had six buses with 40 seats

17 each, that means 240. So there were perhaps 260 to 270 of us, and that is

18 my assessment.

19 Q. But I think you were not the last to go in; is that right? I

20 think you -- were you on the third bus?

21 A. No, I was on the fourth.

22 Q. So if you were on the fourth bus how many people were inside the

23 hangar when you went in?

24 A. Listen, Your Honour, there were people, and let's say 150. About

25 that's how many. Because there are tears running down your face, blood is

1 rolling down on the right side, your knees are shaking. To tell you the

2 truth, I had no time to count. My rough assessment, 150, 140. You get

3 inside, and -- heads down, and that was it.

4 Q. Why were your heads down, or was your head down?

5 A. First of all, I kept my head down because the young fellow Zeljko

6 Begov fell down, and I helped him up. I and another young lad, I can't

7 remember him now. Let me mention this, I never told his mother what her

8 son had looked like. Everything I saw outside was before I got inside the

9 hangar. Once I got inside the hangar I moved to the middle.

10 Q. Can you tell to this Court, as best you can, what it was like

11 inside that hangar when you went in? What was the atmosphere like? Can

12 you paint a picture for us?

13 A. It was a miserable atmosphere. People screaming, beatings,

14 yelling, trampling on people, hitting them with iron rods, with

15 rifle-butts, kicking them, various implements. And then kicking again.

16 Q. You have told us that there was straw in the middle and I think

17 you've described blood on it. Can you tell us where all this blood was

18 coming from?

19 A. Yes. It came from the fellows who had been beaten who was on the

20 military bus. All of them had been severely beaten, based on what I could

21 see.

22 Q. You have told us that you went into the middle of the hangar, and

23 you have also described that you kept your head down. What about other

24 people who came from your bus, did you see what was happening to them?

25 A. I didn't keep my head down the whole time. Naturally at one point

1 I put it up. After me, Mr. Emil Cakalic came in, whom I have known for 40

2 years. It is easy for me to describe a person I know. Right then, when

3 he ran in, after the first beating outside, which I didn't see, naturally,

4 Slavko Dokmanovic, who used to work with him for municipality, I heard him

5 say, "Oh, Mr. Inspector, you're here as well." And then five of them

6 descended on him and started hitting him. And then after that Dokmanovic

7 kicked -- just a minute, I'm trying to remember the name. Kicked Dado

8 Djukic in the face. Dado had been wounded in his leg, so he was crouching

9 down. And outside of the hangar they beat me with his crutches, they beat

10 me on the head. As far as I remember next to him was -- I'm not a hundred

11 per cent sure about this, young Baumgertner who was a 16-year-old lad. He

12 ran in next to him. I didn't tell his parents either, the fate he

13 suffered there. And then Dokmanovic, trying to imitate a footballer,

14 kicking a ball over the head, hit this boy on the face.

15 Q. Can I just ask you about your own injuries at that time? What

16 injuries had you suffered as a result of the beatings?

17 A. If you add Ovcara and Sremska Mitrovica, then you'll see that I

18 have a defective right ear shell, and then my right eye has a problem.

19 I -- my eyesight is somewhat impaired on the right eye, and it's always

20 bloody because they kicked me wherever they could. In addition to that, I

21 am not allowed to watch any war movies, I shouldn't be in the vicinity of

22 any fighting, physical fighting, and I have trouble sleeping.

23 Q. You have told us that you saw Milan Bulic there. I just want to

24 deal with that person. Did you see him beating any person or not?

25 A. Your Honour, as far as I know in my previous statements, which I

1 have been giving for 14 years now, Milan Bulic beat in front of the

2 hangar. I don't know what Damir Samardzic did to him. I told him this in

3 Belgrade, what on earth has he done to you for you to beat him so

4 severely, to beat him to death?

5 Q. Can I just explain to you, this Court and the Judges will not know

6 what you have said in Belgrade, and therefore it's important that you tell

7 this court exactly what you saw Bulic do. So you are giving your evidence

8 again. Do you understand? So would you be kind enough, please, to tell

9 the Court what it is you saw him do?

10 A. He met people by the bus, kicked them. There were five of them

11 hitting people. Hitting them with wooden sticks. Whoever they could get

12 their hands on. This lasted until the last person went inside. Sinisa

13 Glavasevic, the journalist, was among the last ones. 12 people descended

14 on him inside the hangar. I don't know what happened to him outside, but

15 they beat him, kicked him, did all sorts of things to him there. At one

16 point in time we could hear a whistle, and this was a man of some 40

17 years.

18 Q. Can I just deal, please, with two specific topics and then we'll

19 come to the man with the whistle. I know it's difficult to be

20 interrupted, but perhaps it's necessary. Can we deal with Samardzic, the

21 beating of Samardzic, just that and that alone. Can you describe to this

22 Court the ferocity of the beating of that man?

23 A. If I had to show it to you properly I would have to start kicking

24 the tables and the chairs. It was horrible. Following the second punch

25 he fell to the ground, and he was beaten up so badly that after two hours

1 when I went out of the hangar, he couldn't move and his step-son Gaspar

2 also -- I mean, there was a man with his head in a ditch and he was lying

3 down and his legs were resting on the bridge, and they gave no signs of

4 life. I can't describe it any better. You can imagine how it must have

5 been. I mean, five or six of them were beating people one by one, and

6 those people never got up again, as far as I could see.

7 Q. Can I deal, please, with journalist that you have told us about?

8 Glavasevic, now, how was he attacked, Glavasevic, how was he attacked?

9 A. So as to avoid any misunderstandings, Sinisa Glavasevic, who was a

10 Radio Vukovar journalist.

11 Q. Yes, that was the one. Can you tell us how he was attacked and

12 tell the Court how that occurred and where it occurred?

13 A. When he rushed in already by the door he couldn't even make three

14 steps forward want hangar, I mean. He was beaten by rifle-butts and

15 handles of automatic weapons, and he was beaten on his head, on his legs

16 and he was beaten to the ground. And as far as I can remember, I think

17 they used iron bars and rods and they beat him with that. So you can only

18 imagine how it was. It was horrible, just beyond words. There was no

19 mercy. It is undescribable. What could we have done to him in order for

20 them to want to beat us up so badly?

21 Q. You have used the word "they" beat him. Who beat him, what do you

22 mean by the word "they"? Can you tell us, please?

23 A. All those were in uniform. So when I say "they," I mean

24 reservists, paramilitaries, devil will know, I mean there were five

25 different uniforms there, but they were all mixed up together and they

1 were all participating in that beating.

2 Q. Did you at any time see anyone in uniform try to stop these

3 beatings?

4 A. If only. If only I were able to tell you that anyone moved their

5 little finger. Nobody, no one at all.

6 Q. I want to deal with a piece of evidence you gave about five

7 minutes ago, and that refers to a gentleman who was blowing a whistle. Do

8 you follow? So I just want to deal with that topic, if I may. So when

9 was the first time that you became aware of someone blowing a whistle?

10 A. Well, it was at the time when Slavko Dokmanovic, first of all I

11 could see him and then all of a sudden he disappeared and I couldn't see

12 him anymore. And then somebody else came in, I can claim that he was a

13 reservist, whether he was JNA or not, but he was wearing a reservist

14 uniform and he had a whistle and he came in and he had a whistle like a

15 soccer referee and he was blowing into that whistle, and he said, "That's

16 enough." And at that moment I want to think "oh, thank God," but then

17 another eight people came in and those who were there before went out.

18 And then the next group started the beatings and the same situation

19 started all over again, the screams and so on. And Kemo started

20 shouting "Where is the Francuci?," the Frenchmen. And he was trampling on

21 this young boy, I'm 90 per cent certain that it is Baumgertner, that is

22 his name and he is 16 years old, I know his parents quite well, his father

23 and his mother. But we were all covered in blood, Your Honours.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, I just want to deal with the blowing of the

25 whistle and then saying, "That's enough." Who was the man with the

1 whistle speaking to when he said, "That's enough"?

2 A. A man wearing a uniform. He could have been 40 years old. I was

3 50 at the time, going on to 51, and he might have been 41, but in my view

4 he could have been slightly younger.

5 Q. Thank you. But the question that I asked, and perhaps it was the

6 way I phrased it, is I want to know, you have told us about the man, this

7 man of perhaps 40 years of age, you've told us that he was saying to

8 someone, "That's enough," he's using the phrase, "That's enough." Who is

9 he telling to stop? Who are they? What are they? Can you tell us?

10 A. He was saying that to the ones who were inside and who were

11 beating us up. The selfsame soldiers who were massacring us. The same

12 uniformed people.

13 Q. The uniformed people who were inside that hangar, can you give us

14 an idea of the age range of the people inside the hangar? And I'm only

15 talking about the military, I'm not talking about the people who have come

16 from the bus. Do you understand? So I don't want to know about the

17 people who have come from the bus, I want know about the people who are

18 actually in there in uniform or linked with the uniformed people. Do you

19 follow me? What sort of age span was there?

20 A. Well, approximately we're talking about an age span between 24 and

21 44, not counting Slavko Dokmanovic.

22 Q. Thank you. Can we deal, then, please, with the piece of evidence

23 you gave about where is the Frenchman? Now, did you understand what they

24 meant by the phrase, "Where's the Frenchman?"

25 A. As far as I could gather, the one who said, "Where's the

1 Frenchman?" And then the guy came forward and he said here I am. Well,

2 his left hand was bad, and when he was kicked and beaten, he said, "Kemo

3 is going to show you" otherwise I wouldn't know have known the man who

4 said "Where is the Frenchman?" was Kemo, otherwise I wouldn't have known.

5 But after I was released from Mitrovica, Kemo was a trainer at Jakapovac

6 [phoen], and so he was shouting at him, "Kemo is going to show you" and

7 "fuck your mother and father," and then he proceeded to beat him up and

8 you know everybody who came through their hands met with the same fate.

9 Q. But do you know the name of the person who was called the

10 Frenchman? Not the person who attacked, the person who was called the

11 Frenchman? Or do you know the name of the family?

12 A. As far as I can remember, I think it's the same boy that was

13 punched in the face, or rather kicked in the face by Slavko Dokmanovic.

14 He must have been 16 or 17 years old, called Banhurta [phoen]. He was a

15 good-looking guy, medium height.

16 Q. There may be a slight error in the translation. Can you repeat

17 the name of the boy again, please?

18 A. Baumgertner.

19 Q. Thank you. You've told us about the beatings that you received at

20 the hangar and at Sremska Mitrovica. I want you to forget about the

21 beating at Sremska Mitrovica, I just want to deal only with the beatings

22 you received at the hangar. Do you understand? Only the hangar. Can you

23 tell us, then, please, how you were assaulted in the hangar at that time?

24 A. I wasn't kicked or beaten in the hangar because I moved towards

25 the middle of the hangar, but I was beaten up outside. And the ones who

1 were the last to arrive and as the others were doing the beatings were

2 circling around them, well so the last ones to arrive had a pretty bad

3 time of it.

4 Q. You've told us that you were beaten outside. Can you tell the

5 Court how it was you ended up moving from the inside of the hangar to the

6 outside of the hangar?

7 A. I can say that I got off the bus through the back door next to

8 Mugosa for that control. And then after five or six metres I reached the

9 people who were waiting for us at the entrance into the hangar and when

10 they fell upon me it was pretty bad in the lower body. They kicked me

11 with their shoes, they had heavy shoes, and one of them wanted to punch me

12 in the head, and then one used Dado Djukic's crutches to hit me on the

13 head and another one kicked me in the back. And they were so quick and I

14 can't even tell you how fast it all went and it was only my good luck, let

15 me emphasise this again, that I didn't fall to the ground and I managed to

16 run into the hangar.

17 Q. How long did you actually stay in the hangar? I know it's

18 difficult to assess, but how long do you think?

19 A. I can give a pretty good assessment of that. We get there at

20 1.30, and we came out just before 4.00, 4.00 p.m. I remember quite well,

21 as we were leaving Ovcara, the same kind of polo van was driving in from

22 the opposite direction and the headlights were on already. But it quite

23 dark, but when we reached Velepromet, it was completely dark. So let's

24 say two hours. We spent two hours at Ovcara, we can say.

25 Q. Well, can we just deal with it perhaps this way, that when you

1 came out of Ovcara you saw cars with lights on; is that right or not?

2 A. Not quite.

3 Q. Well, let's deal with the natural lighting. How was the natural

4 lighting outside? Was it bright daylight, was it dark, just try and give

5 us an indication, as the Court will hear other evidence about that.

6 A. I can tell you quite easily. My statement was this: Just before

7 1600 hours, 4.00 p.m., it was still daylight, but as we were leaving

8 Ovcara and we were halfway to Velepromet, and at that stage the car

9 driving from the opposite direction had the lights on. So it wasn't fully

10 dark, but there wasn't a great deal of daylight either. Within six

11 minutes we got there, I mean in front of the Velepromet, and then it was

12 already dark. So darkness fell quite early, at around 4.00 p.m.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Before we get to Velepromet, I'd like to

14 deal with how it was that you were taken or came out of the hangar. So

15 there you are in the hangar, and you've told us that you came out of the

16 hangar. How did that occur?

17 A. Not a long time after the beatings a soldier came along and asked

18 Miroslav Perkovic, where is Beli, and I said, "Here I am". And it was

19 Dr. Ivankovic's son. He took Stjepan Guncevic, myself and myself out and

20 Zoric took Cakalic out because he was his brother-in-law's friend and

21 Cakalic's brother-in-law was a Serb. As far as I knew, because Zoric was

22 a neighbour of mine, and Zarko Kojic and Miroslav Perkovic and somebody

23 called Dudas came out with us and Vili Karlovic was outside.

24 Q. And was any explanation given to you why it was you were being

25 brought outside?

1 A. No, I was not given any explanation. I was a pretty good friend

2 with Dr. Ivankovic, his father, and it was not just my case, he was a

3 sociable guy, and he was very approachable for common people, your average

4 man on the street, such as I was. And he didn't have any airs and graces,

5 he didn't keep telling us that he was a high-ranking surgeon and I was

6 just a middle-class decorator, or whatever. And his son might have

7 recognised me, even as I was on the bus, I can't tell you. I mean I can't

8 confirm that.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, can we deal with your trip back to Velepromet?

10 Can you remember approximately how many people travelled back to

11 Velepromet from the hangar itself? And when I refer to those people, I

12 refer to those people travelling with you?

13 A. I think six, but if not I can try and count again.

14 Q. Well, can you tell us the names of the people who travelled with

15 you, as far as you can remember?

16 A. I remember very well. Emil Cakalic, Stjepan Guncevic, Drago

17 Berghofer, that is to say myself, Dudas, Miroslav Perkovic, Vili Karlovic,

18 and Zarko Kojic.

19 Q. Now, before we start dealing with Velepromet, I want to deal with

20 one document that you created yesterday, and I would like you to look at

21 this document, please. It's the number 04680147. I don't know if we're

22 going to be lucky enough to see that on the e-court. If there is not, we

23 have got hard copies. At least I hope we have. I'm going to reach a hard

24 copy to you. It's really not fair for you to be shown something like

25 that. Would the Court object to a photocopy being given to this witness?

1 Now, the Defence have seen this document, and whose handwriting is

2 it? It's a photocopy by the way, but whose handwriting is it?

3 A. My own.

4 Q. Thank you. And if we look top right-hand corner we can see the

5 28th, the 2nd. Which was yesterday, and I think it's right to say that's

6 your signature; is that right? If you look at the paper copy,

7 Mr. Berghofer, I suggest it may help you more than the electronic version,

8 despite what many people think. Now, could you look at the paper that's

9 in your hand?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That's the same, one is shown on the screen, but you have the

12 luxury of having a photocopy of it as well.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, I want to ask, if I may, please, about this document, we can

15 see that there are numbers 1 to 30. Do you see that on the left-hand

16 side, just keep looking at the paper copy. Now you've got numbers 1 to

17 30, and we've got various names that you have written down. Who are these

18 people whose names you have written down on this document?

19 A. Your Honour, before I say that, I have two more names I testified

20 before the court in order for their mothers to get damages, they're called

21 Jovanovic, and Tomislav Pap. He used to work at the hospital for

22 Dr. Bosanac in the storeroom.

23 Q. Thank you for that, but can we just deal with the question that I

24 ask you? And that is you've got numbers 1 to 30, you've got the names of

25 people in your handwriting. Who are these people?

1 A. The first one, Dragan Gavric, Pavo's son.

2 Q. Can I stop you there before we go through every 30, if we deal

3 with the 30 names, would you look at the paper, would you be kind enough?

4 Not the screen. Can we just look at the paper that's in front of you,

5 that's the same thing. Now, all of these names, where did you see all

6 these 30 or 32 people?

7 A. Let me stress, Your Honours, I've seen quite a few of them, many

8 more that I knew, but I can't remember their family names, I saw them at

9 Ovcara in the same group that I was in, around me.

10 Q. Now, when you compiled this particular list, did you do that from

11 a document or did you do it from memory?

12 A. On the basis of my memory.

13 Q. And if the Defence want to ask you any questions about these

14 people, would you be able to assist them in telling them where these

15 people were at Ovcara and what happened to them, as far as you're aware?

16 A. Yes, any time. This list exists and it's dated the 29th of March

17 [as interpreted] 1992.

18 Q. No, I want you -- I want you to look at the list you have in front

19 of you, the paper document. The date on that --

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. The date on that is the 28th of February.

22 A. The 28th of February of that year.

23 Q. Yes. And how did you compile this list? How did you come to

24 write it all down? Can you tell the Court? You say that you saw them at

25 Ovcara. Why did you write this list out?

1 A. Yes. Just to show you that all of these people were people that I

2 know who were my neighbours, and they're the same victims named at Ovcara.

3 Q. Can we just clear up one matter that may cause a question, it's

4 simply this: You have told us about a list in 1992, and you remember

5 saying that about two minutes ago?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. What list is that that was created in 1992?

8 A. The first day when I came to Hotel Plitvice in Zagreb after being

9 in jail in Mitrovica, I was given a piece of paper and I immediately set

10 out to write this, and I didn't even make a mistake.

11 Q. And I think it's right to say, is it not, that that particular

12 list is not with you, that I think it is back in Vukovar; is that right?

13 A. No. That's correct, I wrote it based on what I remembered, based

14 on my memory.

15 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, could I please put this list, which was

16 created yesterday and signed and dated by this witness as an exhibit

17 demonstrating the names of people that he saw at Ovcara when he was there?

18 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a list based on his memory here in The

19 Hague in the last few days or is it based on some earlier document?

20 MR. MOORE: It's not for me to give evidence, but can I just say

21 that it is a document that is created from his memory yesterday without

22 any reference to the other list. So it is basically a memory document

23 created yesterday.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number 228.

1 MR. MOORE:

2 Q. Let us deal then, please, with Velepromet. You say that you were

3 taken to Velepromet that evening. Did you actually go into the Velepromet

4 facility that night or not?

5 A. We didn't, we stopped in front of the gate. There was no room.

6 Q. And where did you go after Velepromet, if there was no room?

7 A. Your Honour, we went towards Petrovci. To a clothing factory

8 called Modateks.

9 Q. And did you stay the night at Modateks or not?

10 A. We did.

11 Q. And again, as far as you are aware, was that the same group that

12 had left with you from Velepromet?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you leave Modateks?

15 A. When we spent the night between the 20th and the 21st in the

16 morning Zeljko Mudri arrived, my colleague and a school friend. And took

17 to Dudas. Somebody came to fetch Zarko Kojic, it may have been his

18 grandmother. But Zarko Kojic left us on the following day.

19 Q. And did you ever return to the Velepromet facility that day?

20 A. We did. On that day, which was the 21st of November, at around

21 1530 or 1600 hours, between 3.00 and 4.00 p.m., it was still daylight.

22 MR. MOORE: Your Honour I'm going to move on to the topic of

23 Velepromet, JNA barracks and one or two other general topics. I

24 appreciate it's six minutes early, I can take the witness on that topic if

25 you wish, but it might be a suitable place to adjourn this evening so that

1 he can deal with the matter cleanly in evidence.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will adjourn at this stage.

3 We continue tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning. Could I mention it

4 will be necessary for the Chamber to finish the sitting at 1.15 tomorrow,

5 as there is a visiting group of judges that we must meet at that time. So

6 we will sit from 9.00 until 1.15 tomorrow.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.52 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of March,

9 2006, at 9.00 a.m.

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