Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5307

 1                          Thursday, 2 March 2006

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6            JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning, Mr. Berghofer.  If I could you mind

 7    you of the affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence which

 8    still applies.

 9            Mr. Moore.

10            MR. MOORE:  Thank you very much.  Thank you very much.

11                          WITNESS:  DRAGUTIN BERGHOFER [Resumed]

12                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                          Examination by Mr. Moore: [Continued]

14       Q.   Mr. Berghofer, I want to move on in our evidence, please, to your

15    return to Velepromet on the 21st of November.  Now, can we just deal with

16    your return.  Do you remember coming back to Velepromet?

17       A.   I do.

18       Q.   And you've told us that you came back, I think, with the same

19    people who had been with you to Modateks.  Is that right?

20       A.   That's right.

21       Q.   Well, let's deal with Velepromet.  Were you actually taken inside

22    or did you go inside the Velepromet facility?

23       A.   We set out from Modateks across the field.  We actually walked

24    across the field.

25       Q.   And did you have -- did you travel by yourselves or did you have

Page 5308

 1    any escort or people with you?

 2       A.   We were escorted by Jezdimir Stankovic, who was the brother of a

 3    friend of mine and another man.  They were wearing JNA uniforms.

 4       Q.   And just for completeness, were they armed or not?  That's

 5    Stankovic and the other.

 6       A.   Yes, they were.  They had automatic rifles.  And he said:  Don't

 7    run away, Beli, otherwise we'll have to kill you.  I was the first, and

 8    all the others were following behind me.  He didn't say anything else bad.

 9    He didn't kick me or anything.

10            Then we entered Velepromet.  We entered a room, but in front of

11    that room there were two young regular soldiers.  They searched me.  They

12    took my watch and very few Yugoslav dinars that Goran Ivankovic gave to me

13    in Modateks.  There wasn't a whole lot, just a little bit.  But the

14    soldier who took my watch said:  This is the kind of thing I like.  And he

15    said:  What do you have in your shoes?  I had new walking shoes.  And I

16    said:  I have nothing.  And he said:  If I find anything at all, I'll cut

17    your feet off.  And I said:  Okay.

18            So that was all the conversation I had with them, and then we

19    entered the room and it was the so-called death chamber.  Whoever went in

20    never used to come out alive; that's why we used to call it a death

21    chamber.

22       Q.   Thank you very much.  Now, I'd just like you, please --

23            MR. MOORE:  I wonder if it's possible for the registry to put on

24    the screen a photograph, aerial photograph, of the Velepromet facility.

25    The number is 04672115.  Now, can that be blown up, please, so that we can

Page 5309

 1    see it.  Mine's not very well in focus, but let's try it.

 2       Q.   This is a photograph, Mr. Berghofer, of the Velepromet facility

 3    from the air.  Now, have you got it in focus, or is it, like mine, rather

 4    opaque, rather blurred?

 5       A.   It's pretty clear.

 6       Q.   On your left-hand side, I believe, perhaps even on your right-hand

 7    side, we have got a screen and we have got a magic pencil that allows you

 8    to mark up and to point out where you were taken.

 9            Now, before you do that, because you've not done this before, just

10    look at the facility, familiarise yourself with it.  The -- the entrance

11    is to the right, as we look at the photograph.  Do you agree with that or

12    not?

13       A.   I do.

14       Q.   Can you put a small cross and an A, a capital A where the entrance

15    is, as you understand it.

16       A.   [Marks].

17       Q.   Thank you very much.  Now, you've told us that you were taken to a

18    room.  Can you circle the area where the room is, as far as you believe it

19    to be.  So can you put a circle around the area where the room is.

20       A.   [Marks].

21       Q.   And can you put an R for that, please, standing for "room."

22       A.   [Marks].

23       Q.   But could we make that a little bigger, do you think?

24       A.   [Marks].

25       Q.   Thank you very much.

Page 5310

 1            MR. MOORE:  I wonder if I might make a suggestion to the Court,

 2    whether it's possible for the assistant to put a clear letter to assist

 3    all parties when it comes to the recollection, to put an R there.  I don't

 4    know if the Court would agree with that proposed course.

 5            JUDGE PARKER:  Well, I see at the moment an R that's reasonably

 6    clear.

 7            MR. MOORE:  Well, I've got a very bad screen, so I can't see

 8    anything apart from red.  If it's clear for all parties, then there's no

 9    problems about that.

10            Might I then ask for that to be made an exhibit, please.

11            JUDGE PARKER:  I would suggest if the court officer would put a

12    capital A at the first marking.

13            THE USHER: [Marks].

14            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

15            It will be received, Mr. Moore.

16            MR. MOORE:  Thank you very much.

17            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 229.

18            MR. MOORE:  Can we just switch off that particular exhibit,

19    please, from the screen?  And can I be told when that's been removed?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's okay.

21            MR. MOORE:

22       Q.   So that particular map has now gone, has it?  Is it still there,

23    Mr. Berghofer, or has it been removed or not?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   It's not been removed?  It's gone now.  Very well.

Page 5311

 1            Let's deal then, please, with your evidence about the room.  Why

 2    did you call it the room of death?

 3       A.   Because we came across some of ours, some of my acquaintances,

 4    such as Ljubo Pribudic [phoen], Slobodan Vuletic.  The young Uhlarik, Crk,

 5    who was the manager of the Vukovar slaughter-house.  Rene Matausek.

 6    Another young guy who was Golac's son, and Golac was a friend of mine.

 7    And then there were two women there as well.  And then there was this son

 8    of a Roma musician there as well.  And an elderly friend of mine as well;

 9    I can't remember his family name right now.  Then another two women and --

10       Q.   I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to interrupt you.  Can you -- if you

11    want to carry on, do carry on.

12       A.   And those of us who arrived from Modateks.

13       Q.   Thank you very much.  When you say you came across some of ours,

14    were those people actually inside the room when you entered that day?

15       A.   They were, yes.  They were inside.

16       Q.   Were you able to see if any of them or injured?

17       A.   The young Uhlarik and Slobodan Vuletic were tied up with wire,

18    their hands and their backs.  And the others were not tied up.

19       Q.   Can you tell us, then, what happened when you were in that room.

20       A.   We arrived at around 3.30.  It was still day-light and it was a

21    nice day.  And as time went on, a reservist came in.  He was uniformed.

22    He was a local.  And if Your Honours allow me -- I mean, he used rather

23    vulgar language.  Am I free to repeat that?

24       Q.   I don't think there's any problem.  Most people, I think, have

25    heard bad language.

Page 5312

 1       A.   Okay.  That person, a young man, about 28, 29 years of age, a

 2    stout man, blond, he turned to Miroslav Perkovic and said:  Fuck your

 3    mother.  Did you need this?  And he hit him with a heavy shoe on his head.

 4    And he said:  First I'll cut your ears off and then your head as well.

 5            And he got that young Roma guy Dzemo, the gypsy's son, he got him

 6    up.  He was a short guy, no more than a metre and a half, as we used to

 7    say.  And this other guy was a powerful, a strong man.  So he lifted him

 8    up basically, and he said:  This is a real ZNG and not you.  And he took

 9    Rene Matausek, and Dzoga, Crk, and his manager, because they used to work

10    together in the same company, the four of them as I remember now, and then

11    he came back for Miroslav Perkovic.  And he kicked him twice and he threw

12    him out, pushed him out.

13       Q.   I just want to deal with the way you describe certain things.  You

14    use the phrase "he came back for Perkovic."  Now, to come back in my

15    language means to have gone out and returned.

16       A.   That's correct.

17       Q.   Well, what did he do then with the others before he came back for

18    Perkovic?

19       A.   He took him out -- he took them out of the room.

20       Q.   Did you ever see the people that he took out of the room?  Did you

21    ever see them again?

22       A.   Never again, no.

23       Q.   Did you ever hear what had happened to them?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   The people who were in the room when you entered - and you've

Page 5313

 1    described and given the names of some of those people - what ethnicity

 2    were they?

 3       A.   As far as I know, well, if you take the Roma boy and, to be quite

 4    honest, Slobodan Vuletic was raised by a man who wasn't his parent or

 5    anything, so he never knew what his real nationality was, at least I

 6    myself was never interested to find out.  And all the others were Croats.

 7       Q.   You've told us about people being taken out and Perkovic being

 8    kicked.  What other incidents happened in that --

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   -- room that you can remember?

11       A.   As far as I can remember, he slapped this elderly friend of mine

12    quite forcefully.  He was born maybe in 1936 more or less.  And as far as

13    I can remember, another man who I knew by sight very well, an elderly

14    gentleman, he was complaining that he left his wife at home and she was

15    bedridden and that she was on her own for four days by then.  And he used

16    to live next to the Sloga football stadium.  And he was asking to be

17    allowed to go and see her and at least be able to give her a drink of

18    water.

19       Q.   Do you remember coming out of the room?

20       A.   Yes, I remember very well.

21       Q.   Can you tell us, please, how that occurred?  What happened?

22       A.   But I need to give you a very brief introduction to this bit.

23            When they were taken out, a neighbour of mine came along.  His

24    name -- his mother's family name was Ikac and his father's family name was

25    Turukalo.  Up until the 16th, we had been giving him food.  He was a Serb,

Page 5314

 1    an Orthodox man, and he never participated in any sort of action.  He

 2    never did anything wrong, but on the 21st he was already wearing a uniform

 3    and an automatic weapon.

 4            He came in and with a smirk on his face he said:  Oh, look who's

 5    there.  And another one said:  Beli, I wouldn't like to be in your shoes.

 6    And I asked:  Why not?  And he said:  For all the tales you told on Radio

 7    Vukovar.  And I said to him:  I didn't tell tales.  I am Beli and not

 8    Bili.  Bili was the mayor.  And that was the end of the story.

 9            And at around 11.00, 11.30 p.m., the door opened and two young

10    soldiers came in.  And they said:  Don't be afraid; the captain wants to

11    save you.  Let's go out.  And we then went out and we pushed the bus,

12    because the engine wouldn't start, and finally it did start and we were

13    driven to the barracks.

14       Q.   Well, let's -- let us deal then, please, with the barracks.  How

15    many people from that room were taken to the JNA barracks that evening?

16    Just give us an approximate number.

17       A.   Maybe some 50 [as interpreted] people.  Some of them came from

18    some other rooms, I can't tell you exactly where from, but there were not

19    that many of us in that one room that I was referring to earlier.  There

20    were more people on the bus than in the room, so they must have come from

21    somewhere else.

22            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Vasic.

23            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one point with

24    regard to the transcript.  Page 8, line 13, the witness said "15 people,"

25    and it has come out as "50" in the transcript.

Page 5315

 1            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 2            Could you just check that, please, Mr. Moore.

 3            MR. MOORE:

 4       Q.   Mr. Berghofer, there may be a difficulty in the translation

 5    sometimes.  I just want to clarify one small matter.  We don't know

 6    whether you said it was either 15, 1-5, or 5-0, 50, people who went to the

 7    barracks.  Can you clarify that for us.

 8       A.   Berghofer has never said "50" because there had never been 50

 9    people there.  Between 13 and 15, thereabouts.

10       Q.   Well, let's deal, please, if we may, with over at the barracks.

11    Where were you taken -- where were you taken to, inside the barracks or

12    outside the barracks?  Can you give us a picture?

13       A.   In the barracks, in a room there.

14       Q.   And were all of you in the same room?

15       A.   We were.

16       Q.   And can you tell us what happened in the barracks, please.

17       A.   As soon as we entered the room, we got a pack of cigarettes and a

18    can of meat.  The manufacturer was the Gavrilovic company.  And we were

19    given 250 grams of bread; as we say, a quarter of a kilo of bread.  I,

20    myself, had had nothing to eat for three days, and I suppose it was the

21    same for the others.

22            When we had eaten, a gentleman came in.  He had a huge beard.  It

23    covered most of his face.  I don't suppose his own mother would have known

24    him had she seen him.  He lined us up, and he started giving us a

25    political lecture.  He said:  What for did you serve the Ustashas?  Wasn't

Page 5316

 1    this state good enough for you?  And so on and so forth.  I must admit, I

 2    couldn't remember everything he said.  He didn't actually hit anyone, but

 3    he insulted us a great deal.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  You've said that "he didn't actually hit anyone."  Was

 5    anyone hit in the barracks when you were there?

 6       A.   We nodded off for a minute, and I heard sounds of someone being

 7    hit and I heard someone moan.  As far as I remember, the person being hit

 8    was my neighbour Silt, but we never talked about this later.  I don't see

 9    that many people really.

10       Q.   When you say it was your neighbour, does that mean he was in the

11    same room as you?

12       A.   Yes.  Yes.  I have no idea where he came from.  I can't say.  He

13    was in the same room, though.

14       Q.   And did you actually see who was hitting him?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   I think the time came when you eventually left the JNA barracks.

17    Is that right?

18       A.   Yes.  The next morning, the 22nd.

19       Q.   And can you very briefly, so that we get a picture of what

20    happened, tell us how it was you eventually left the barracks.

21       A.   The next morning a young soldier came and said:  Your full name

22    and your ethnicity.  There were two or three ethnic Serbs there.  I

23    remember one man who's name was Zare.  He was suffering from some sort of

24    mental disturbance or deficiency.  All the others there were Croats.

25       Q.   And what happened then, please?

Page 5317

 1       A.   I must say -- I've always been a Croat myself, ever since I was

 2    born.  But then the census came along at one point, and my former wife, my

 3    ex-wife, was an Orthodox lady, a Ruthenian, and when the census came, it

 4    was for our children's sake that she wrote Yugoslav ethnicity.  My last

 5    name happens to be very difficult to spell, and I was the last to enter my

 6    name, so I told the soldier:  Drago, Berghofer, Yugoslav.  40 minutes

 7    later he came back and said:  I'll be calling out names, and those whose

 8    names are called out must go to the bus.  When he came to me he said:  A

 9    Yugoslav.  So we got on the bus, and we were off to Sremska Mitrovica.

10       Q.   And the people who went to Sremska Mitrovica, what was the

11    ethnicity of those people?

12       A.   There was a man name Slobodan Nikolic among us, a rather young

13    man.  He liked football, but he liked a good drop, too.  I called him

14    Stoplara, and he got on the bus at Negoslavci.

15       Q.   Mr. Berghofer, that's obviously the way I put the question.  The

16    people who got on the bus that morning from the JNA barracks, can you tell

17    us what ethnicity they were, the bus that went to Sremska Mitrovica?

18       A.   I understood your question perfectly well, sir.  That's what I was

19    trying to point out.  He was the only Serb to get on that bus; all the

20    rest of us were Croats.  Had he been at the barracks, he would not have

21    been on that same bus with us.

22       Q.   Thank you very much.  I'd like to deal with probably only two

23    other topics.  We know, because we've heard in this court, that there were

24    various wells in the Vukovar city area.  Now, were you aware of that fact?

25       A.   Yes, I know about the wells, especially those in my immediate

Page 5318

 1    surroundings.

 2       Q.   Thank you very much.  Now, the wells themselves - you excuse the

 3    pun - how well were they known to the general population?

 4       A.   Well, 40 years ago, nearly every house had a well.  There were

 5    five or six wells in Stjepan Radica Street alone.

 6       Q.   Can you -- do you know from your personal knowledge of what --

 7    from what you've been told whether the administration ever kept a check on

 8    the wells before 1991?  Do you understand the question?

 9       A.   I do.

10       Q.   Well, can you tell us then what you know about the

11    administration's knowledge of the wells.

12       A.   Back in 1990 or thereabouts, they started listing all the wells.

13    My house was near the barracks, and we didn't have a well.  However, 300

14    metres down the street there was another house with a well outside in the

15    streets, and the opening was covered over in concrete.  I said:  Let's

16    keep this one.  And my shop was nearby, just down the street.  But the

17    wells were targeted by mortars with such precision that they were all

18    destroyed.

19       Q.   Thank you.

20       A.   I can't --

21       Q.   Thank you very much indeed.  I want to deal with an area --

22            MR. MOORE:  If we could show the map, the large map.  I think it's

23    Exhibit 170, but it's map 6.  It's Exhibit 156.  Can we show that on the

24    screen?  It's 0462-6622.

25       Q.   Mr. Berghofer, again we're going to hope that it will come on the

Page 5319

 1    screen?

 2            MR. MOORE:  Your Honour, can I just say that the screen here in

 3    this court that I have is always causing problems for both Mr. Smith and

 4    myself.  We don't have a clear picture.  I wonder if it's possible for the

 5    administration to have a look at it at some time, please.

 6            JUDGE PARKER:  I'm sure that can be taken care of.

 7            MR. MOORE:  Thank you very much.

 8            JUDGE PARKER:  We like to keep the Prosecutors very vague and

 9    somewhat in the dark, Mr. Moore.

10            MR. MOORE:  I think it's a natural gift in any event.

11       Q.   Now, do you have a map in front of you on your screen?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And can you actually see it clearly?

14       A.   Well, yes, you can see the hospital.  You can see Velepromet.  You

15    can see the road to Ovcara, the road to Negoslavci.

16       Q.   Now, what I would like done, please, if it's possible - and I'll

17    move to this screen, if I may, which is better - I would like to see if

18    the administration, the registry, could focus in to what I call the

19    central area, please, the Americans call "downtown."  Yes.  I hope that's

20    clearer for everybody.

21            Now, can I just go through this map with you, Mr. Berghofer.  If

22    you look at the map you can see lines running from top to bottom.  The top

23    is the north; the bottom is the south, and obviously lines across going

24    east and west.  You have got a large area of blue going through this map,

25    which I know you have seen before, and that is the Danube.  And then you

Page 5320

 1    have the Vuka river which runs almost at right angles, coming out almost

 2    where the N is of Dunav.  Do you see that?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Would you be kind enough, please, to put a small red dot where you

 5    believe the Vuka River comes out into the Danube.

 6       A.   [Marks].

 7       Q.   Thank you very much.  Now, I want to deal with the area that is

 8    south of the Vuka River, where the vast majority of the buildings are.  Do

 9    you understand?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Now, by common consent, that is the principal part of Vukovar, the

12    residential area itself.  Do you agree or not?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Can you tell us how badly damaged that area was from September,

15    October, through to November.  Can you give a description to the Court the

16    sort of damage that was being done south of the Vuka River.

17       A.   Well, I think -- not that I think, I actually passed there earlier

18    on, too.  The road I usually took was to the hospital and back.

19    Everything was flattened.  I couldn't see a building that was still intact

20    anywhere along the road.

21       Q.   I want to deal with damage or injury to civilians in the area

22    south of the Vuka River, the area that I've referred to.  I think it's

23    right to say that you had a common-law wife in 1991?  Is that right?

24       A.   She was a friend.

25       Q.   I'm sorry to ask you these questions, but I'm afraid I have to.

Page 5321

 1    And what was her name, please?

 2       A.   Ljubica Jurisic.

 3       Q.   And what happened to her?

 4       A.   She was living -- I'm not sure how I should explain that to you.

 5    It was some distance from my house, but the same general direction.  The

 6    road leading past the barracks.  It was an area called two hills.  That

 7    was where she lived.  They shelled the entire area, so she fled to

 8    Radiceva Street and stayed at number 74.  She took shelter in my cellar

 9    with another 40 women and children.  That was in my shop, and the cellar I

10    had at Brijeg.

11       Q.   So how did she die, please?

12       A.   Well, let me tell you.  Every single day the shelling was so heavy

13    that you just couldn't keep track anymore.  There was a shell that landed

14    in the courtyard.  It shattered all the glass panes, smashed against the

15    concrete wall of the shop, and the cellar was in the same building.  She

16    didn't want to light a cigarette down in the cellar, so she just popped

17    her head out for a minute, and she was struck in the neck by shrapnel, by

18    a piece of shrapnel.  She was killed on the spot.

19       Q.   I'm sorry to ask you that, but I haven't quite finished.  You also

20    had a daughter who unfortunately was killed.  Is that right?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And can you tell the Court in very short form how it was you

23    believe she was killed.  And you don't have to go into detail.  Just

24    shortened form is fine.

25       A.   When I met my grandchild, that was four years later, in Blace,

Page 5322

 1    which was a refugee camp, my granddaughter told me that Cvijanovic Pavle

 2    had taken her away, a man, a Serb, whom we had been giving food to up

 3    until the 17th.  Whenever my ex-wife met him, she would ask him the same

 4    thing every time:  Where's my daughter?  Can I use some foul language,

 5    please?

 6       Q.   That's all right.

 7       A.   Go fuck yourself.  That was his reply every time.

 8       Q.   And can you tell us, please, when it was, before or after the fall

 9    of Vukovar, that you believe she was killed?

10       A.   She was taken to Negoslavci to stay with someone who was allegedly

11    a relative, or maybe she was evacuated to that area.  So for a while he

12    stayed at Negoslavci.  All I knew was she had been taken away.  Pavo

13    Gavric, who was at this time taken to Mitrovica, when they took her to

14    Negoslavci at more or less the same time, once he had left Mitrovica he

15    said that my daughter had been taken to Negoslavci.  This was on the

16    15th of September or thereabouts.  However, she went back.  She went back

17    to the house after the fall of Vukovar, and it was sometime in early

18    December that she was eventually led away, on the 1st or 2nd of December.

19    I can't be more specific.

20       Q.   Thank you very much.  I'm sorry to ask you those questions.

21            Finally this:  We have -- I want to return to the list, and I'd

22    like you to be given a hard copy, please, 04680147.  It was made an

23    exhibit yesterday.

24            Now, can we just deal with this list.  Mr. Berghofer, you've told

25    us that you wrote it, and forgive me, your writing is almost as bad as

Page 5323

 1    mine, so could we perhaps just read out into the record the names of the

 2    people that you say that you saw in Ovcara.  So I don't want to deal in

 3    any detail about these people, unless it's necessary, but I just want to

 4    go through the names so we've got them on the court record.  So if you

 5    read them from your paper copy in front of you, it will be easier for you,

 6    I assure you.

 7            So who is the first person?  Who is number 1, please?

 8       A.   My apologies for the handwriting, but believe me, when you're

 9    remembering these things it is very hard to keep your hand steady.

10            Back to your question.  Dragan Gavric.  On my street, Dr. Mladen

11    Stojanovic Street, a Croat that was next to the barracks.

12       Q.   Number 2, please.

13       A.   Sinisa Veber.  His father is a hairdresser.  My peer.  That's

14    three houses down the road from my shop.  He's a Croat.  Vlaho.  I know he

15    was an ambulance driver with the hospital, lived in the same house as the

16    late Ljubisa Jurisic near the area known as two hills, or, rather, it was

17    Tome Goreta [phoen] Street.  He's a Croat, too.

18       Q.   Number 4, please?

19       A.   Goran Vidos, a hospital employee.  His father was my manager,

20    another Croat.

21            At number 5 we see Pavlovic.  I think his first name was Zeljko.

22    Just across the way from my shop.  A young man, aged about 24, a Croat.

23            Number 6, Sinisa Glavasevic, a journalist, a Croat.

24            Lili lived near the Catholic church.  He was a Croat, a very

25    proficient football player, but I can't remember his name.

Page 5324

 1            Number 8, Jurela, the son of Tomo and Zlata.  Zlata used to work

 2    as a nurse at the hospital.  He was a Croat, too.

 3            Zvonko Iles.  When we were children, we used to call him Zriko.

 4    He's about my age, a Croat.

 5            Branko Polomija, a journalist, just like Sinisa Glavasevic.  I

 6    don't know what his ethnic background was, but he was a rather young man.

 7            11 and 12 are the Kolak brothers.  They lived at Patkoviceva

 8    Street, Croats.  I used to be friends with their father for long years.

 9    If only you could see their father and mother now.  Oh, what a pitiful

10    sight they are.  They are like a couple of living dead; they can't seem to

11    get over it.

12            Herman Stjepan lived in the house next to my shop.  The Kolak

13    brothers were Croats, and Stjepan, too, was a Croat.  The son of Car, the

14    telephone operator.  That's what you called him.

15            Number 14, Herman, also known as Svabo.  He came over from Germany

16    at some point, even had a uniform.

17            Number 15 is Ante Bodruzic.  One of the managers at the Danube

18    hotel, the head waiter.  Rather young.  I used to know him because I

19    changed the upholstery on the furniture in one of his rooms.

20       Q.   Can I just stop you for a moment.  Number 12 and number 13 --

21    well, it's really number 13 and number 14.  Are you able to say what

22    ethnicity they are, number 13 and number 14?

23       A.   Both Croats.

24       Q.   Thank you.  Sorry for interrupting you.  Let's move on to

25    number 15.  Are you able to say what ethnicity he was?

Page 5325

 1       A.   Ante Bodruzic was a Croat.

 2       Q.   Let us resume then at number 16, please.

 3       A.   Ivan Kovac, a Croat, who used to work at the post office.  To the

 4    very last day he was manning the phones.

 5       Q.   Number 17, please.

 6       A.   Dragica Tuskan, and her son Drazen, Croats.  Used to work with me

 7    for quite a long time, same company.

 8            Number 19, Markobasic.  Can't remember the first name or

 9    ethnicity.  I probably never even saw the lady until we were driven into

10    Ovcara and then I saw a woman standing there across the way.  Baumgertner;

11    it's difficult to say anything about the ethnicity.  The last name strikes

12    me as German, but I really don't know what his stated ethnicity was.

13            21 was a man who came over from Nasice to help us out, almost as a

14    tourist, you might say.  Last name Kuhar.  I remember him because he came

15    to my warehouse.  His shoe size was 48.  Couldn't find a pair for him,

16    unfortunately.  He is still in Zagreb.  Nobody wants to see him.  He has

17    no parents, and his brother refuses to go and get him because he was

18    forfeit the compensation that the Croatian state has been paying him for

19    missing persons.

20            Now we get to Dado Djukic.  His father was an X-ray technician.  I

21    have no idea what he might be in terms of ethnicity.

22            Nikica Holjevac.  Your Honours, he was a respectable, honourable

23    man, just like you, and yet he was killed at Ovcara.

24            Damir Polhert.  He was the son of a good friend of mine.  Because

25    when I first started as an apprentice in upholstery, he was my master, as

Page 5326

 1    it were.

 2            And then Zeljko Begov, a Croat, who worked at the Nama department

 3    store, and he used to live right next door to the barracks.

 4            Number 26, Damjan Samardzic, as far as I heard, he was a truck

 5    driver.  I never used to know him before, but I got to know him during the

 6    war.  His stepson, Gaspar, that is to say, the son of his present wife.  I

 7    don't know what the nationality is.

 8            Now number 28 and 29, they're both called Bosanac.  One was almost

 9    80 years old, and the other at the time must have been around my age, that

10    is to say, 50 back then.  And they lived close to the hospital.  I think

11    in the Bozidar Adzija Street, or as we used to call it Sapudl.

12            Number 30 is Tomislav Bajdrauh, a friend of mine, my age, and

13    yesterday I forgot to say maybe -- or did I mention it, Oliver Jovanovic.

14    I think he was a Serb through his father, Djuro.

15            And then Tomislav Pap who used to be a warehouse keeper at the

16    hospital with Dr. Bosanac, and I don't know what his nationality was.

17       Q.   I hear the word being interpreted as "nationality."  I'm going to

18    check in relation to ethnicity for number 26, et al.  Can we just deal

19    with number 26?  I'm sorry to ask you this, but it hasn't come across

20    terribly clearly.

21            Let's go to 26, please.  Do you know the ethnicity of number 26?

22       A.   No, I don't.  No, no, I never used to know him before.

23       Q.   That's all right.  I'm not asking you to guess in any way.

24    Number 27, 28, and 29, do you know the ethnicity of those people, please?

25       A.   Gaspar should be a Croat, judging by his surname, but I don't know

Page 5327

 1    for sure.

 2            And 29 and 28, as far as I can tell, I'm not sure, they're Croats

 3    because his son was courting my younger daughter.  So that's how I know

 4    that he was a Croat.

 5       Q.   Finally this:  How is it that you're able to remember 32 names and

 6    give a list of people that you say you saw at Ovcara 15 years after it

 7    happened?  Can you tell the Court why you were able to remember these

 8    names?

 9       A.   Look, it's quite simple.  Those were people I used to see on a

10    daily basis.  I made the list of names the very next day, following my

11    return from Sremska Mitrovica.  I wrote down all of 27 names straight

12    away, and just to jog my memory because women used to come to Plitvice

13    Hotel and see me and ask me:  Beli, did you see my husband?  Did you see

14    my boy?  Or whatever.  And so I could answer:  Yes, I saw them at Ovcara.

15    I don't know.  I mean, this is no problem.  I may have a problem with

16    other things, such as fixing a broken TV set or something.  But this is

17    very easy.  Those were neighbours of mine, so I have no problem

18    remembering them.

19       Q.   Thank you very much.

20            MR. MOORE:  I have no further questions.

21            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Moore.

22            Mr. Vasic, we will probably stop at about 20 past, so if you could

23    keep that in mind.  Because we're finishing earlier today, we'll shorten

24    each session a little.

25            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I'll try and

Page 5328

 1    go through some technical points in the first part, and we won't be

 2    needing that much time.

 3                          Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic:

 4       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Berghofer.  Let me introduce myself.  I am

 5    Miroslav Vasic, one of the Defence counsels for Mr. Mrksic.

 6       A.   Good morning to you.  Pleased to meet you.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  I do have something I'd like to point out to you.  So

 8    far you have been answering the questions by my colleague and you had to

 9    listen to translation.  We are both speaking a language we both

10    understand, so I would like to appeal to you to pause very briefly after

11    my questions so that the interpretation can come through.

12            First of all, let us go through some technical points in

13    conjunction with the statements you made so far, and as far as I can see

14    there's quite a bit.  Since I do not know whether you've had the

15    opportunity to consult the copies of your statements recently, I do have a

16    bundle here.

17            So I'd like to ask the usher to hand all these statements to you,

18    and then you can give them back to us later.

19            Mr. Berghofer, your first statement relating to the events in

20    Vukovar in 1991, November 1991, dates back to the 6th of April in Zagreb.

21    Do you remember that?

22       A.   Very well.

23       Q.   Thank you.  Our colleagues from the Prosecution did provide us

24    copies of your statements.  I can't see, though, who this statement was

25    given to.  So could you tell me who it was on that day, on the 6th of

Page 5329

 1    April.

 2       A.   Sir, they came to collect me at Plitvice Motel, and I had to go to

 3    court.  And that was the first statement I made, and I was asked to

 4    identify two men and tell what they did in Vukovar in the course of the

 5    war.  Their family name was Dragosavac.  Since those two were not the

 6    Dragosavac men who were considered to have done certain bad deeds in

 7    relation to Croats, and so I said:  Gentlemen, the older one I do not

 8    know.  And as far as I can remember, the younger one didn't say "boo" to

 9    anyone.  And they approved it.  They said:  You're an honourable man.  You

10    only returned from Mitrovica three days ago, and you're an honest man.

11            And as to Ovcara, some two people from MUP came to Motel Plitvice,

12    as far as I can remember, and I dictated my statement to them.

13       Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Berghofer.  Can you just tell me:  You

14    said that you dictated your statement to them.  Did they show you a copy

15    of that statement and did you sign it?  Do you remember that?

16       A.   I did not sign it.  It was in a notebook, as far as I can

17    remember.

18       Q.   Could we just make sure.  Could you be so kind and take a look.

19    There should be a statement, a copy of a statement, in front of you.  The

20    title is "statement."  And in the right-hand corner, it says VUBOR.421.

21    And to the left it says "Dragutin Berghofer."  Have you found it?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   I would like you to tell me who you gave this statement to.  Was

24    this a statement you gave to the members of the Croatian MUP?

25       A.   I have to start at the end because there have been some mistakes

Page 5330

 1    there.

 2       Q.   Can you see the date in the left corner, the 6th of April, 1992,

 3    on the last page?  The bottom left corner.

 4       A.   Let's say that 90 per cent of this is correct.

 5       Q.   I was not asking you about the contents of the statement; I was

 6    just asking whether this is the statement you gave to the MUP

 7    representatives.

 8       A.   Certainly.  Because there are certain names here, because some of

 9    the people who were with me didn't even know those boys.  I was the only

10    man who actually recognised Bulidza, who recognised Mugosa.

11       Q.   Thank you.  So far -- now you've had the opportunity to scan this

12    text.

13       A.   That's correct.

14       Q.   Now I'd like to ask you the following:  After that, you talked to

15    the MUP representative of Croatia once again on the 1st of June, 1992, and

16    there is official record of that.  Have you seen that?

17       A.   Let me tell you:  I think I gave my statements as many as eight

18    times so far.  I can't remember every single one as such, but yes, I did

19    give those statements.

20       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Berghofer.  Could you maybe take a look at the

21    document entitled "The Republic of Croatia, the Ministry of the Interior."

22    And the date is the 1st of June, 1992.

23       A.   Yes, fine.

24       Q.   Official record.  Have you seen it?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 5331

 1       Q.   It says that you were interviewed by Ivica Dodlek, an employee of

 2    the MUP.  Did you talk to him and did he compile the report after that?

 3       A.   Yes, now you've jogged my memory.  That's this guy called Ivica.

 4    The thing is I couldn't quite remember earlier on, but that's correct.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  And then on the 16th and the 17th of June, 1995, you

 6    talked to the OTP from The Hague Tribunal, and on that occasion a

 7    statement was compiled which was read out to you in a language you could

 8    understand, and you signed it.  Is that correct?  Do you remember that?

 9       A.   It was not read out to me, but I did sign it.

10       Q.   And prior to signing it, did you know what it contained?  Were you

11    sure that it contained exactly what you said?

12       A.   I suppose so.  I can't argue with that.

13       Q.   Thank you.  After making a statement to the OTP, you were

14    interviewed as a witness before the investigating magistrate of the

15    municipal court at Vinkovci on the 7th of March, 1996 in a criminal case.

16    Is that correct?  Do you remember that?

17       A.   I don't understand that question.

18       Q.   Let me remind you.  This was a case against the defendants at the

19    time, Veljko Kadijevic, et al., and in that case did you give testimony

20    before the investigating magistrate at the municipal court in Vinkovci in

21    1996?  Do you remember that?

22       A.   Against Kadijevic?

23       Q.   Yes.

24       A.   No.  That man had nothing to do with me.  I have no idea about

25    that.

Page 5332

 1       Q.   Could you just take a look in front of you.  In this stack of

 2    documents there should be one entitled "Record of Witness Statement," and

 3    it says KIO741/95-52, and it says "Dragutin Berghofer, Witness," and the

 4    criminal case against Veljko Kadijevic, et al.  Have you found that?

 5       A.   Just a moment.  I can't remember that.  Perhaps it was the

 6    cooperative of the former camp inmates from Vukovar, and they lodged a

 7    complaint.  They actually sued Mr. Kadijevic as a cooperative.  I can't

 8    remember having said anything about Kadijevic in particular myself.

 9       Q.   Could you just take a look on the first page, by the end of the

10    page to the right there's a signature, in the right corner -- in the

11    bottom corner of every page.  Is that your signature?

12       A.   Yes, it is.

13       Q.   So it is indeed possible that you made this statement to the

14    investigating magistrate?

15       A.   It might be, but I can't remember blaming -- I did blame the JNA,

16    and I did it together with my fellow inmates, if that's what you're

17    talking about.

18       Q.   Thank you.  No.  I didn't say that you gave evidence directly

19    against Veljko Kadijevic; I'm just saying that you made a statement in

20    this case.

21       A.   Yes, presumably.

22       Q.   Thank you.  Shortly afterwards, following a request from my

23    learned friends from the OTP you came to The Hague and you gave evidence

24    in a case according to Rule 61 before this Tribunal.  It was on the

25    27th of March, 1996.  Is that correct?

Page 5333

 1       A.   Correct.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  After that you appeared before the Trial Chamber as a

 3    witness in a court case before this Tribunal, and it was on the 4th of

 4    February, 1998.  Is that correct?

 5       A.   Correct.

 6       Q.   Prior to that testimony, did you receive copies of your statements

 7    from my OTP colleagues, the statements that you made to the OTP

 8    investigators?  Did you read them?  And were you asked whether you had any

 9    remarks?

10       A.   Yes, I did read through them.

11       Q.   Thank you.  After this day, on the 26th of April, 2004, you again

12    gave evidence following a request from the district court for war crimes

13    in Belgrade, and you gave your statement before the court in Zagreb.  And

14    you made a statement and you signed it.  Is that correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Finally, you also gave evidence before the district court for war

17    crimes in Belgrade during two days, on the 25th and the 26th of October,

18    2004, and there is a transcript of that testimony.  Is that right?

19       A.   Right.

20       Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me:  In the course of all of these

21    testimonies, you've always tried to make statements according to the best

22    of your recollection because you have always been warned of the need to

23    tell the truth and the consequences of perjury.  Is that correct?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Thank you.

Page 5334

 1            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I have finished with

 2    the technical bit, and I think that this would be a suitable time for a

 3    break.

 4            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

 5            We will resume at a quarter to 11.00.

 6                          --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

 7                          --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

 8            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Vasic.

 9            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10       Q.   Mr. Berghofer, I would like to get on with my questions now.

11            Up until the 24th of October, 1991, you were living in your own

12    house at Sajmiste.  How far was that from the barracks, the JNA barracks,

13    in Vukovar?

14       A.   Eight or nine metres.

15       Q.   Thank you.  You later moved to a different house where you say you

16    stayed until the 17th of November, 1991.  How far was that house from the

17    JNA barracks?

18       A.   This other house -- well, you have the barracks, you have the

19    Slavija mill -- well, say about 700 metres.

20       Q.   Thank you.  You were a member of Vukovar's 204th Brigade, right?

21       A.   Yes.  It was only recognised later on, but, yes, that's true.

22       Q.   We're familiar with the problems surrounding the recognition of

23    that particular brigade.  Once the war had ended, you were not exactly

24    happy with your own status, the status you were later to be granted as a

25    member of the Vukovar Brigade, right?

Page 5335

 1       A.   That's not quite how it was.  I was quite happy.  Where does the

 2    problem seem to be?

 3       Q.   Didn't you believe that some people were granted recognitions and

 4    awards which they had not earned during the fighting in Vukovar?

 5       A.   Well, that's quite true.  One thing I was unhappy about was that I

 6    had had five houses and two shops before the war, and all my country gave

 7    me afterwards was a small 35 -- was a small flat of 35 square metres, and

 8    that was that.

 9       Q.   Sir, when exactly did you join the preparations for the armed

10    struggle?  Was that as early as May 1991, perhaps?

11       A.   Well, one thing I can tell you is that I was never into politics,

12    and I was not in favour of any subversive activity against the previous

13    country.  I had put an enormous effort into building the house that I had,

14    and once they tore that house down the tide turned for me, and I was no

15    longer in favour of the JNA.  Yet everybody was still saying:  There will

16    be a truce, there will be a truce, so day by day I kept deciding to stay

17    in Vukovar and not leave.

18       Q.   What you've just told us is in reference to August 1991, right?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   What about between the 5th and the 8th of August, 1991?  Were you

21    involved in any preparations for armed combat in the town of Vukovar?

22       A.   All of us, the people of Vukovar, or nearly all of us, although we

23    were not all directly involved, the official date is the 2nd of May for

24    all of us.  However, at certain points I was on duty at the local commune

25    building, at the radio station, Nikola Papac and myself, Marko Oric, those

Page 5336

 1    people.  We were on duty there, although it was a perfectly regular

 2    occurrence that people still chose to stay in Vukovar at the time.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me who was in charge of all these duty

 4    shifts and securing certain house and streets.  Who organised this entire

 5    thing at the level of the entire town of Vukovar?

 6       A.   It wasn't a very professional set-up.  Nikola Papac just asked me

 7    whether I would keep him company.  What are you doing tonight, he said.

 8    And he said:  The MUP people told me should there be an incident in one of

 9    the villages around Vukovar that I should go and report to them.  So I

10    just decided to join him.  We were very good friends, and I decided to

11    keep him company for the night at the local commune building in

12    Stjepan Radica Street.

13       Q.   Thank you.  You told us about the fact that you were a member of

14    the 204th Brigade.  As far as I know, it was only established sometime in

15    September 1991, wasn't it?

16       A.   No, not as far as I remember.  It wasn't before I was a detainee

17    in Sremska Mitrovica that the 104th and the 204th Brigades first came into

18    existence.  But I don't think it was that early on.  Don't take my word

19    for it, however.

20       Q.   There was something else I wanted to ask you about this.  Wasn't

21    it the National Guards Corps that you joined at first?

22       A.   Mr. Vasic, did I get your name right?

23       Q.   Yes, you did.  Thank you.

24       A.   The National Guards Corps, I was a grandfather by this time with

25    three grandchildren, and I was pushing 51.  I don't think your question is

Page 5337

 1    appropriate; that is at least what I think.

 2       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Berghofer.  But the reason I ask this is because

 3    that's what your statement indicates, the statement that you gave to the

 4    Vinkovci investigating magistrate on the 7th of March, 1996, on page 2 of

 5    the statement.

 6            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] For my learned friend, the English

 7    reference is page 3.

 8       Q.   Do you remember telling them that you had joined the

 9    National Guards Corps?

10       A.   If those civilians were National Guards Corps members, then I have

11    no choice but to agree with you.

12       Q.   Thank you very much.  Could you please go to page 2 of the

13    statement, in case you found it.  The statement is dated the 7th of March,

14    1996.  A statement to the investigating magistrate, record of witness

15    interview.  That's what it says.

16       A.   What was the date?

17       Q.   7th of March, 1996.  You have witness information on the title

18    page, and that might be easier for you to track down.

19       A.   I can't see the date anywhere.  Is that what it says in English up

20    here?

21       Q.   No, no.  The heading should be "Record of Witness Interview."

22    That's what it says in capital letters.

23       A.   I can't see that.  I can't find my way around all these papers.

24       Q.   I'll have the usher assist you.  I have a copy of this.

25       A.   This says "Zagreb."

Page 5338

 1       Q.   It's not Zagreb; it's Vinkovci.  Do you have it now?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Please go to page 2 of this document.  Paragraph 4 begins with the

 4    word "immediately."  Can you please read that aloud, the first two

 5    sentences.

 6       A.   Certainly.

 7             "Immediately after the occupation of Vukovar, out of all of the

 8    units that I mentioned, I joined the ZNG and Vukovar's defence.  We

 9    resisted the attacks until the 18th of November."

10            Should I go on?

11       Q.   No need, thank you.  Do you remember stating this?

12       A.   I can only say that I did.  There were many such statements.  You

13    see the pile of documents in front of me, don't you?

14       Q.   Thank you.  You said you were a member of the 2nd Company of the

15    1st Battalion of the 204th Vukovar Brigade?

16       A.   Yes.  Menges came along and said that, didn't he.

17       Q.   Did this brigade have a number of units at Mitnica, Sajmiste,

18    Borovo, Priljevo and in the surroundings of the hospital?  Were all those

19    units part of the 204th Vukovar Brigade?

20       A.   I see where you're going with this question, and I can only

21    confirm that Vukovar's defenders were in those areas, too.  I didn't go

22    there to see them, but I'm sure that they were there.

23       Q.   I understand that.  Thank you.  Can you tell us how many

24    battalions the brigade comprised?  You, yourself, for part of the

25    1st Battalion.  Did you know at the time or did you later on find out how

Page 5339

 1    many battalions the brigade comprised?

 2       A.   I can hardly be expected to know that, Mr. Vasic.  We were a very,

 3    very small group.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  Where was the 1st Battalion positioned exactly in

 5    August 1991 and later on in November 1991?  So August and November, that's

 6    what I'm asking about.

 7       A.   They were 200 metres from the fence surrounding the barracks.

 8    There's an orchard that I owned in the vicinity, so I know the area.  The

 9    area is usually referred to as Slavija.  It's a small area.

10       Q.   Thank you very much.  Did they hold on to these positions into

11    November 1991 or not?

12       A.   Up until the 17th, is that what your question is about, which date

13    was that?

14       Q.   Well, you can tell us which day it was when the defenders left

15    those positions.

16       A.   It was the 17th of November, 1991.

17       Q.   Do you know how many companies your battalion comprised?

18       A.   I don't know, Mr. Vasic.  I was a warehouse keeper.

19       Q.   Thank you.  In your capacity as a warehouse keeper, did you

20    provide any supplies for your battalion or perhaps for the brigade or

21    perhaps for the residents of Vukovar or the hospital itself?

22       A.   We did take supplies to the hospital two or three times.  We took

23    some sugar for Dr. Vesna Bosanac.  Nikola Papac was still alive.  We

24    brought some coffee, too.  As far as I know, that was it for the hospital.

25            On the last day only, just before the army got there - and we may

Page 5340

 1    discuss that later on - as for the other brigades, they never got any

 2    supplies from us because we, ourselves, were not too strong on supplies.

 3    We had about 2.000 civilians to look after.  That's a ballpark figure.

 4    I'm sure you understand.  The street is full of cellars, because there is

 5    hillside just behind the houses stretching about 20 metres away from the

 6    houses.  As for those positions over there, as far as I remember, there

 7    were at least between 80 and 90 people manning those positions, give or

 8    take a man or two, people that it was my duty to look after.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  As you went about your duties, did you ever meet

10    anyone called Franjo Kracak at the positions near Sajmiste?

11       A.   Yes, sir.  I did meet him.  I knew him before the war, too, but he

12    was younger than I was, and we hardly ever exchanged greetings.  He was

13    wearing a uniform, I do remember that, and I gave him two or three

14    chocolate bars that I got from the warehouse.  And I never saw him again.

15    But I did know him by sight.

16       Q.   You say you knew him.  Can you tell us if he was a mortar expert.

17       A.   I don't know, Mr. Vasic.  But if I can help, his nickname was

18    Brada.

19       Q.   Thank you.  Do you know who was in command of your company, the

20    2nd Company of the 1st Battalion, during the fighting in Vukovar?

21       A.   If you give me a minute, I may be able to explain what I was.

22       Q.   Please go ahead.

23       A.   What I was, in Stjepan Radica Street there was a local board

24    building a local commune building that had been demolished by shelling.

25    We moved to the so-called Hungarian street.  It's further down

Page 5341

 1    Radiceva Street.  People from Vukovar know that.  The building currently

 2    houses the police administration, so that was where we moved to.  And

 3    believe it or not, there were seven or eight of us who owned private

 4    businesses.  We joined forces, put together a bit of money, and organised

 5    a defence for Vukovar for the small area that I described as Slavija, near

 6    the barracks.  None of us were schooled officers or anything like that.

 7    The first commander there was Tomislav Berendi who was a mechanic.

 8       Q.   Can you just repeat this person's last name, and I didn't hear it

 9    clearly enough myself, to be quite frank.

10       A.   The first commander at the local commune building in Stjepan

11    Radica Street was Tomislav Berendi, a mechanic.

12       Q.   Do you perhaps know that during August, before the fighting broke

13    out in Vukovar, there was a check-point at Sajmiste where people leaving

14    Vukovar for Negoslavci were stopped, as well as those driving back into

15    Vukovar.  Do you know if there was one to begin with, and do you know that

16    it had been organised by the ZNG?

17       A.   I can't really confirm that, but I know that people were talking

18    about something that sounds very much like this.  I wasn't there myself,

19    though.

20       Q.   Do you know if a part of your unit was positioned at the Stjepan

21    Supanc school?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   I was wondering if you could help us out with this.  If we

24    considered the defence line in Vukovar, what does the term "Osa 3" mean,

25    O-s-a 3?

Page 5342

 1       A.   Yes, I do, Mr. Vasic, and anything I know I am willing to share

 2    with you.  First you had Vuka 1, Vuka 2, and Vuka 3.  And then Josip

 3    Tomasic was stung by a wasp, so then it was no longer Vuka 1, Vuka 2,

 4    Vuka 3.  Now it became Osa 1, Osa 2, Osa 3.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, "Osa" means wasp.

 6            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   Were these defence lines that were called this in certain places?

 8       A.   No.  These were check-points set-up at a number of private homes,

 9    some sort of a guard, you might say.

10       Q.   Thank you.  Does the name Ivica Pancic mean anything to you?  Did

11    it mean anything to you at the time?

12       A.   No, not at the time and not now.  I really don't know, but I think

13    he was a rather young man.  It was not entirely strange that I didn't know

14    him or notice him.

15       Q.   We could perhaps show you the same map that you were shown by my

16    learned friend, the map of Vukovar.  Could you use it to mark the defence

17    lines held by your battalion.

18       A.   Mr. Vasic, as far as I know, you, too, grew up in Yugoslavia.  Do

19    you know what a battalion means?  As far as I know, that's a whole lot of

20    soldiers, isn't it?  Do you agree with me on that?

21       Q.   I definitely do, Mr. Berghofer.  I definitely do.  But can you at

22    least mark the positions held by members of your company, if you can; if

23    not, please just say so.

24       A.   Sure I can, sure.  No problem at all.  I can tell you about it

25    without looking at the map.  Pavkovic, Mikara [phoen], the small area also

Page 5343

 1    known as Slavija --

 2            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can we have Exhibit 156 run up on the

 3    screen, please.  As soon as we have it, I would like to have it enlarged

 4    and the witness can tell us when it's sufficient.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's in as far as I'm able at all

 6    to find my way around the map.

 7            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can I have the central

 8    portion of the map enlarged, please?

 9       Q.   Is this enough for you, sir?

10       A.   Well, you could say it is.

11            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please hand the witness

12    the pen that was previously used to make markings?

13       Q.   Can you please mark the positions of your company, the ones you

14    held on to until the 17th of November, 1991?

15       A.   Mr. Vasic, this long line you can see right here, is that the road

16    to Belgrade?

17       Q.   The line running down the middle of the map is the road to

18    Negoslavci, and there's another line to the lower right corner.  That's

19    the road to Sotin.

20       A.   Yes, Sotin and on to Belgrade.  And what about this thing here on

21    the right-hand side?  Is that the water-tower by any chance?  Right here

22    where it reads "JNA" and then somewhere down from there.

23       Q.   It says JNA --

24       A.   Yes, and there is an arrow to the left from there.

25       Q.   As far as I know, that is Mitnica.  And the water-tower I do not

Page 5344

 1    think is marked on this actual map.

 2       A.   Because if I could find the water-tower I could just turn from

 3    there, and the distance is about 200 metres from there.

 4       Q.   But please try to use the barracks as your reference point.

 5       A.   Well, how can I if we have this line running down the middle of

 6    the map?  But it should be around here at any rate.  Just a minute,

 7    please.  I don't want to go wrong on this, because, after all, I live

 8    there.  But let's say it might be around here.

 9       Q.   Can you now please draw a line to mark the position of the defence

10    line, and mark it with a number 1, and then circle it, please.

11       A.   What's this line right here where the arrow touches down near this

12    street?

13       Q.   I think these are the streets of Vukovar, and the small squares

14    you can see there are actually houses.

15       A.   If that's a street, then it must be Mladena Stojanovica Street, if

16    my understanding is correct.  That's how it should be.  The barracks is

17    right here.  Let's try to avoid confusion.

18       Q.   Certainly.  I assume the defence lines ran along certain streets.

19    Can you draw a line to indicate where the defence lines were.

20       A.   Well, you see, they were stationed at Patkoviceva Street, which is

21    right next to Mladena Stojanovica Street.  And you have Mladena

22    Stojanovica Street right there, and there's a sports hall right there.

23    I'm not sure if you know.  It should be somewhere around these parts.

24    It's all a bit of a jumble here on this map, but the whole thing was about

25    300 metres from the barracks itself.  The distance was no greater than

Page 5345

 1    that.

 2       Q.   So you've marked two positions for us, right?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   One's just off the barracks and the other one is at Mitnica?

 5       A.   No, it's not at Mitnica.

 6       Q.   The water-tower?

 7       A.   No, closer to the town's centre.  We had nothing to do with

 8    Mitnica, where the sports hall is, if you can find it.  It's up on a hill.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  Can you mark this spot on the right-hand side with a

10    number 1 and circle it, please, and the other one in front of the barracks

11    with a number 2 and circle it, please.

12       A.   Let me just stress, micro area Slavija is up there on the hill

13    bordering on the street of Dr. Mladen Stojanovic Patkoviceva Street, just

14    so as to avoid any misunderstandings.

15       Q.   Thank you.

16            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like for this

17    map to be admitted into evidence.

18            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

19            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 230.

20            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  We won't be

21    needing this picture anymore for the time being.

22       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Berghofer.  You, as member of this unit, also had

23    an automatic rifle.  Is that right?

24       A.   I myself did not have one, no.  A fortnight before the fall, I

25    received a gun and during the breakthrough I exchanged it for an automatic

Page 5346

 1    rifle.

 2       Q.   So it was only during the breakthrough that you were carrying that

 3    automatic rifle?

 4       A.   That's correct.  And I exchanged it right in front of the forest,

 5    and I gave my gun in exchange for an automatic rifle, and I then returned

 6    it afterwards.  When we came to the hospital, I placed it under a burnt

 7    car next to the barracks and next to the hospital, and not a single bullet

 8    had been fired from that weapon.

 9       Q.   If I am understanding you correctly, what you're saying is that

10    this rifle and the ammunition was placed under this car?

11       A.   Mr. Vasic, there was no ammunition, there was just an automatic

12    rifle.  And as to whether there was any ammunition actually in the rifle,

13    believe me, and you will have to believe me, I have no idea.

14       Q.   I do believe you.  Thank you.  Can you just tell me with reference

15    to this shed, is it within the parameter of the hospital, close to the

16    casualty?

17       A.   Yes, that's where it has always been.

18       Q.   And do you know whether any other members of your company had

19    hand-held grenades, apart from automatic rifles?

20       A.   I don't know.  This is too much to ask.

21       Q.   Thank you.  And can you tell me whether at any point by the end of

22    October/beginning of November, a general mobilisation, call for

23    mobilisation, took place in Vukovar?

24       A.   I'm sorry, I can't help you on that one.  I do not know.

25       Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me, do you know which Vukovar defence

Page 5347

 1    units were stationed around the Count Eltz's castle?

 2       A.   I don't know.  I don't believe there were any units in that area.

 3    As far as I know, there was nothing there.

 4       Q.   And have you ever heard about the units under the command of

 5    Mr. Stjepan Radas was deployed there at any given time?

 6       A.   If that's the Radas I have in mind, if that's the one, that is, I

 7    only met him at some point in 1994.  But I really don't know about that.

 8    The one I mean was a youngish man.  I was 52, 53 at the time, and he might

 9    have been around 40, if that's the man you mean.

10       Q.   He was one of the commanders who was a former JNA officer?

11       A.   I do not, Mr. Vasic.  These people were far out of my range.

12       Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  What were your tasks in relation to

13    logistics?  What did you have to do and how did you find out about the

14    needs of individual units?

15       A.   Mr. Vasic, I had to do nothing.  I just told you that we as

16    private citizens got organised without anyone's assistance, and we even

17    bought an ox from a Serb because the JNA plane had bombed his farm.  And

18    so his stables were on fire and he had no money left, and so he came to

19    see me and he said to me:  Beli, I don't have enough money to pay for my

20    father's funeral, but I have an ox that I'd like to buy [as interpreted],

21    and so we got together.  I can tell you how many private citizens did

22    that.  And we gave him money to pay for his father's funeral.  And we took

23    the ox, and we provided food for both the civilians and those lads up

24    there, about 70 to 80 of them.

25            But let me continue by telling you that we would get a couple of

Page 5348

 1    hams or pieces of bacon from Djakovo for as long as you could travel

 2    through.  But water was the biggest problem, in fact, because all the

 3    wells had already been destroyed, and there was no municipal water supply.

 4    There hadn't been any for a long time at that stage.  And we had no yeast,

 5    you know.  I suppose you understand what I mean.  So we couldn't bake

 6    proper bread, and perhaps we'll come to that bit later, when I saw bread

 7    for the first time after two and a half months.  So that's what it was

 8    like.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  Now about wells, were the wells down in the area of

10    Sajmiste as well?  Is that the area you're referring to, or did you know

11    about the wells in all of Vukovar?

12       A.   I do not have an insight into all of Vukovar.  What I'm telling

13    you about is the Stjepana Radica Street which is the main road leading to

14    Sotin and Belgrade and so on.

15       Q.   Tell me, in the course of the war, did you ever see HOS members in

16    the area of Sajmiste and thereabouts?

17       A.   Mr. Vasic, at that stage there were no formations when allegedly

18    the HOS people were there, whether they were there before us, but I can

19    tell you that I saw only three people wearing uniforms at that time.

20       Q.   Thank you.  Does this mean that the others were civilians?

21       A.   As the people who were with me, yes, and the furthest I got to was

22    Slavija and the hospital, roughly speaking, 400 metres away, three bus

23    stops away.

24       Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned you went to the hospital.  I imagine

25    that you met your friend Mr. Ivankovic there, you mentioned you were

Page 5349

 1    friends with him?

 2       A.   Yes.  For example, I took a tooth-brush to Dr. Kolak because she

 3    was unable to go back home.  And so she said to me:  Yes, please, Beli,

 4    find me a tooth-brush, even a second-rate one.  And she was a dentist, and

 5    of course she was annoyed that she couldn't brush her teeth.  And

 6    obviously I met Dr. Ivankovic as well, and he couldn't go home because he

 7    had no trousers.  And so I gave him a pair of trousers and a pair of shoes

 8    and a jacket.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me whether you ever heard Dr. Ivankovic

10    complain about the fact that he was uncomfortable because the hospital

11    Crisis Staff were not treating him nicely?

12       A.   I only found about that for the first time five years later when I

13    first saw him after the liberation, that is to say, after Vukovar was

14    joined with the -- to the rest of Croatia.

15       Q.   Thank you.  You told us about this breakthrough that you started

16    on the 17th of November, 1991.  Can you tell me where this decision was

17    made, where were you when the decision was made.

18       A.   We were in the offices of the now-local community -- I mean, the

19    Hungarian school down there in the Radica Street.  And Osa made the

20    decision:  Okay, let's go for the breakthrough.  And we said:  Okay, let's

21    go, because the shelling was so intense back then.  I can't explain this

22    to you.  It was horrible.  And so we went for it.

23       Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me approximately how many people set off.

24    Can you remember?

25       A.   Of course, yes.  I can see it clearly in my mind's eye even now.

Page 5350

 1    I mean, I was heading the column because I grew up in that area in the

 2    suburb around the hospital, next to the police station, the municipal

 3    building, and there is a cemetery there which has been disused for a long

 4    time.  And if you are even faintly familiar with Vukovar, the end of the

 5    column reached the Lola Ribar Street next to the Autobacka offices.  And

 6    then we went in the direction of the police station, and so we were all in

 7    a column.  And then we turned left toward the prison used to be.  And then

 8    we crossed Bozidar Adzija Street.  We turned right in the direction of the

 9    cemetery, and we crossed the cemetery.  We crossed a football stadium, the

10    football club was called Sloga, and we crossed the grounds of that

11    football stadium.  And we came out -- and I'm trying to remember the name

12    of the street.  Well, never mind.  It was the main street leading to

13    Adica, and then we came to the railway line.  And -- yeah, Borisa Kidrica

14    Street.  And there was a carriage standing in the middle of the road, and

15    there was so many of us that you could hear the sound of our feet.  And

16    two metres further up there is a railway bridge.  When they heard us, I

17    don't know whether it was the JNA or who it was, don't misunderstand me, I

18    don't know, but they were shelling us so much they felt the sound of our

19    feet.  And there were about 350 people there.

20       Q.   Thank you very much.  Just two more points on what you've just

21    said.  You said there were JNA people or who it was.  Who else did you

22    mean?  Did you mean the TO, Vukovar, the locals?

23       A.   Yes.  But I didn't think of them straight away because locals did

24    not have any airplanes, any tanks, or any mortars, Mr. Vasic.  Can you

25    agree to that?

Page 5351

 1       Q.   I do agree, but I'm talking about this event.

 2       A.   Yes, precisely.  On this occasion.

 3       Q.   But there were no tanks or planes there.  Can you tell me about

 4    this column.  How long could it have been, if you could give me a rough

 5    assessment?

 6       A.   Maybe 200 metres, a winding column.  I was heading the column.

 7       Q.   As long as the decision was made, the breakthrough decision, you

 8    started off straight away?

 9       A.   Yes, in the direction of the town hall, and the TO offices - what

10    should I say? - the military offices, just to make it easier for you.

11       Q.   Was the defence Crisis Staff there at the time?

12       A.   Yes, at a certain point, but when we got there we found nobody

13    there, empty rooms.

14            I have to tell you this as well:  Myself and Bili -- well, there

15    was a teleprinter there, and he said:  Do you know how to use it?  And I

16    said:  Well, I'm useless at any of this.  And he started -- and he said:

17    There's no way out.  And we found no one.  Everything was deserted.  Okay,

18    yes, we did find Branko Borkovic.

19            And then we went on to the town hall and it was all dark.  There

20    was no electricity.  And we started debating.  And at around 10.30 p.m.,

21    one group set off and then the other group that I was leading.  And when

22    we arrived at the railroad track at the corner of the Sloga football

23    stadium and the forest, it was just horrible.  And the people who were

24    crossing the Vuka River in front of me, two people were blown into the

25    air, blown to pieces, and some people thought it was me.  And Beli was

Page 5352

 1    said to be dead in Zagreb.  And actually I turned back and I returned to

 2    the garage together with Njofra Jankovic, Marko Mandic, his wife, and this

 3    doctor, Dr. Aleksijevic, I think he was an orthopaedic surgeon, and his

 4    wife as well.  And Njofra Jankovic, yes, I've mentioned him already, and

 5    we turned back and returned to the hospital.

 6       Q.   Thank you.  Could you just clarify this:  You said you came across

 7    Bili there.  Is it Marin Vidic, Bili, that you're talking about?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me, on your way back, and you said which

10    route you took, did you go straight to the hospital, you never stopped

11    anywhere else?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   And why did you go in the direction of the hospital, can you tell

14    us?

15       A.   Because the entire town was moving in that direction.  One square

16    metre of the hospital grounds had at least three people standing and four

17    beds.

18       Q.   Was it the Crisis Staff decision that those people who didn't want

19    to go for the breakthrough to withdraw within the hospital?

20       A.   The Crisis Staff had nothing to do with it.  It was just that Osa

21    said:  In case anyone is wounded, we won't go back for him.  It was an

22    amateur effort.

23       Q.   Thank you.  And you talked about the column.  Was it the members

24    of your company or the battalion?

25       A.   Some were from our company, and God knows where all those people

Page 5353

 1    had come from.  It was night-time.  We didn't have that many people on our

 2    positions.  At the Slavija micro area that I supplied, I don't know.  We

 3    didn't even know that so many people had remained in Vukovar.  When they

 4    all descended upon the hospital, it was an enormous crowd of people.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me:  Where did you hear for the first

 6    time that Mrs. Vesna Bosanac said that those who came to the hospital

 7    wearing uniforms should throw away their uniforms and discard their

 8    weapons and change into civilian clothes?

 9       A.   I had no uniform. 

10    I had my own civilian clothes, and let me just stress: 

11    I didn't even have any buttons on my clothes.

12    That didn’t mean anything to me, if she had ordered this.

13       Q.   And did you see anyone else discarding their uniforms and putting

14    on civilian clothes and discarding weapons?

15       A.   I only saw them taking off yellow shoes, some of them.

16       Q.   Did you see it on the 17th, when you got to the hospital?

17       A.   No.  I saw that on the 19th, in the afternoon -- no, no, no.  On

18    the 18th -- we are talking about the 17th, yes, it was on the 18th.

19       Q.   Can you tell me whether at that time you saw a great many

20    defenders of Vukovar arriving at the hospital?

21       A.   I did not, Mr. Vasic, but I saw very many people wounded, very

22    many of them indeed.

23       Q.   Do you remember telling the investigating magistrate in Vinkovci

24    that apart from the medical staff and the wounded, you also saw 2.000

25    civilians at the hospital and quite a few defenders of the city of Vukovar

Page 5354

 1    amongst them?

 2       A.   In case you have read this, I believe you that I could have said

 3    that, and it is indeed true.  I told you that earlier on that quite a few

 4    civilians -- I mean, I'm telling you I don't know where all these people

 5    had come from.  And certainly amongst those young men there must have been

 6    defenders of Vukovar, I'm not arguing with that, but I wasn't with them.

 7    I knew people from my own age, from my own group.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  And did you see any of the people who arrived at the

 9    hospital on those days and had participated in the defence of Vukovar,

10    either as members of military formations or as MUP members?  Did you see

11    them placing bandages on themselves or wearing plaster-casts, even though

12    they were not wounded.  Do you know about that?

13       A.   I do not know about that, because about five days before the fall

14    of Vukovar there was no way you could drive anywhere by car because

15    everything was blocked up.  And I know nothing about that.

16       Q.   You didn't see any of the fighters from your own company who

17    wasn't wounded but was wearing a plaster-cast or a bandage at the

18    hospital?

19       A.   Not at all, Mr. Vasic.

20       Q.   Thank you.  And do you know that some of the defenders of Vukovar

21    put on white coats in order to appear to be medical staff?

22       A.   Unfortunately I saw Damjan Samardzic; he was wearing a white coat.

23    But for a while he did actually work at the hospital.  He was a warehouse

24    keeper for at least a month and a half.  He worked at the hospital, in

25    fact.

Page 5355

 1       Q.   Was he one of the commanders of the ZNG units in Vukovar; do you

 2    know that?

 3       A.   I'm going to help you.  He was nicknamed big Bojler.  Let's

 4    suppose he was.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  And do you know that Mr. Kolesar was wearing a white

 6    coat as well?  Did you see him wearing that?

 7       A.   No, that's not correct.  Kolesar is Vukovar person, and some

 8    people might be amazed that I'm remembering all these names, but I used to

 9    meet them on a daily basis.  Kolesar was not wearing a white coat.

10    Kolesar is a Ruthenian by ethnicity and Licina was a Serb, and Hetak

11    Salajdzija [phoen], according to his family name I believe was a

12    Hungarian.

13       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Berghofer.  That's why I'm asking these questions

14    of you because you know people in Vukovar.

15            Can you tell me whether you saw a person called Bozidar Segec at

16    the hospital, if you know him?

17       A.   If that's the Segec I'm thinking of, three houses down the road

18    there are three Segec men, father and two sons, and there was another

19    Segec who I think back then was 25 years younger than me.  But now that

20    you have mentioned it, I'm remembering what he looked like.

21       Q.   Thank you.  I would like to know:  Are you aware of the fact that

22    he was a member of the National Guards Corps?

23       A.   He wasn't, Mr. Vasic.

24       Q.   Thank you.  Do you know a person called Milan Mlinaric?

25       A.   I only know Perica Mlinaric from Borovo, but I don't know about

Page 5356

 1    this other one.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  And Zelimir Radosevic?

 3       A.   I don't know.

 4       Q.   And Dragutin Friscic?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Tomislav Lesic?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Zdenko Novak?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Thank you.

11            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we move into

12    private session for a moment because of a couple of questions?

13            JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

14                          [Private session]

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 5357

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18                          [Open session]

19            THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honour.

20            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21       Q.   You told us about arriving at the hospital.  You weren't sick or

22    wounded yourself, were you?

23       A.   That's right, I wasn't.

24       Q.   How come you remained in the hospital if you were neither?  Can

25    you explain that?

Page 5358

 1       A.   Mr. Vasic, there was nowhere else for me to go.  It was dark.  I

 2    was terrified.  It was raining, and it was a wasteland all around.  And

 3    after all, there were about 2.000 people there, in my estimate.

 4       Q.   Isn't it true that Dr. Ivankovic allowed you to stay in the

 5    hospital until the morning of the 20th?

 6       A.   Yes.  He saw me on the 19th at about 1.00 and said:  What are you

 7    doing here of all people?  And I said:  Well, I've been here since the

 8    night of the 17th.  And he said:  Come with me.

 9            So there we were.  Perkovic and I were sitting in one of his

10    offices in the hospital.  It was a windowless office or room.  There were

11    some nurses there, too, as far as I remember, as well as Dr. Aleksijevic

12    and his wife.  There were about ten of us sitting in that room.

13       Q.   Thank you very much.  The idea of the Defence teams was to divide

14    our questions up among ourselves, and my learned friends will be asking

15    you other things about this.  But I'll move on to the point when you claim

16    you arrived at Ovcara --

17            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Prior to which, Your Honour, I would

18    like some instructions from you, please.  We have a different regime

19    today, and when do we take our next break?

20            JUDGE PARKER:  It could be as early as now, Mr. Vasic, because we

21    would be finishing at about 1.15, so if we broke now it could be a

22    convenient division of time.  You seem to have reached a point where that

23    would be a practical arrangement.  Is that so?  Well, perhaps then --

24            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25            JUDGE PARKER:  -- we'll give the witness an opportunity to have a

Page 5359

 1    break now, and we will resume at a quarter past 12.00.

 2                          --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

 3                          --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.

 4            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Mr. Vasic.

 5            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6       Q.   Mr. Berghofer, I'd like to ask you something about your testimony

 7    in relation to Ovcara.  You say that on the 20th of November, 1991, at

 8    about 1330 hours you arrived at Ovcara in buses, right?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   The buses you arrived on, were they driving in a column, one after

11    the other?

12       A.   I'm not sure about the ones at the rear.  I know about the ones at

13    the head of the column.

14       Q.   Thank you.  You told us that your bus was the fourth from the head

15    of the column?

16       A.   Yes, as far as I remember that's true.

17       Q.   You also told us that you were kept waiting for about ten minutes

18    until the first three buses in front of you were emptied.  Isn't that

19    right?

20       A.   Yes, roughly speaking.

21       Q.   Yesterday, in answer to a question by my learned friend, you tried

22    to add up the people you remembered who got into the hangar and you

23    arrived at a total of between 140 and 160.  Does that mean that all these

24    people entered the hangar within those ten minutes?

25       A.   Mr. Vasic, when I got off the bus, I took the rear entrance or the

Page 5360

 1    rear door to be inspected by Mugosa.  I was being beaten and being

 2    searched, so that's how long it took for the people to get there.

 3       Q.   Thank you very much.  How much time would you say?  Plus the ten

 4    minutes you spent waiting on the bus, how long did the search take and you

 5    running the gauntlet?

 6       A.   Mr. Vasic, everything I saw from the bus was in those ten minutes.

 7    Later on it was done with.  I went to see Mugosa.  He went through my

 8    pockets, searched me, and I crossed the seven or eight metres to reach the

 9    gauntlet.  I was beaten and other people were being beaten, too.  So there

10    you have it, a total of perhaps 15 minutes, give or take a minute or two.

11    I don't need to be more specific than this.  I guess you agree.

12       Q.   Yes, by all means I do.  But just to sum it up, the whole thing

13    took 15 minutes between your arrival at Ovcara and the time you got into

14    the hangar?

15       A.   You could say that, yes.

16       Q.   Thank you.  You were on the bus and then you got off the bus.  Did

17    you see many people outside the hangar?

18       A.   I saw the young soldiers there who headed left.  I saw Karlovic,

19    Vili Karlovic, who was with me on the bus.  There were people there in

20    addition to those who were beating other people, there were about a dozen

21    to the them to the left.

22       Q.   Thank you.  You said about ten people or a dozen in addition to

23    those who were doing the beating.  In answer to my learned friend's

24    question, you said that those beating the other people were also about ten

25    men, right?

Page 5361

 1       A.   Yes.  And the same applies to the situation inside the hangar, the

 2    same number.

 3       Q.   Am I free to conclude three times ten would roughly amount to

 4    about 30 people altogether, right?

 5       A.   Yes -- well, 25, 30.  The beating was severe.  You just try to get

 6    through the gauntlet as quickly as you could in order to take refuge

 7    inside.  See my point?

 8       Q.   Thank you.  There's one matter I need to clarify.  You used the

 9    term "reservists" in answer to a question by my learned friend.  Can we

10    agree that when saying that when using that term you did not in any way

11    include those serving their regular military term with the JNA?

12       A.   No, I didn't, Mr. Vasic.

13       Q.   Or -- and likewise, you do not take that term to include JNA

14    officers, regular officers, do you?

15       A.   There may have been some of those among them, too, but it was

16    really difficult to tell them.  I'm giving you an honest account.  They

17    were just dressed the way they were, and you didn't have time to look them

18    in the eyes or anything.  If it had been you wearing that sort of uniform

19    at the time, I would not have been able to tell you from Adam.  Do you see

20    what I'm saying?

21       Q.   Yes, but I'm talking about the reservists.  When you said the

22    reservists, did you mean the paramilitaries, the members of the various

23    paramilitary groups that you spoke about as well as locals wearing

24    olive-drab uniforms?  I suppose all of us who did our regular military

25    term with the JNA had one of those at one time or other.

Page 5362

 1       A.   I understand your question.  In the previous army, when you've

 2    completed your military term, you either get a rank or you can get an

 3    assignment with the reserve forces.  For example, Zeljko Mojko [phoen] at

 4    Modateks, when he came for Dudas was displaying the rank of captain, but

 5    this was the only rank that I was able to identify among those people.  As

 6    for the rest, I can't really say who they belonged to, but they were

 7    somewhat different from the local paramilitaries.  That much I did notice.

 8    There were three different kinds of uniform:  The young, the reservists,

 9    and the paramilitaries.

10       Q.   Those you term the reservists, did you recognise among those

11    people quite a number of those who were locals, who were from the area of

12    Vukovar?

13       A.   There was this man who drove us to Mitnica; he shook hands with

14    me.  He used to see me at the chemist that I owned and the upholstery

15    business.  His wife worked with the town's land surveyor's office, but I

16    don't know his name.  Djuro, he drove us to Mitnica, was wearing plain

17    clothes.

18       Q.   Have you ever heard of the Territorial Defence of Vukovar, a

19    Vukovar Territorial Defence detachment or the Petrova Gora Territorial

20    Defence detachment?  I mean once you returned to Croatia after your

21    captivity.

22       A.   I heard about the Vukovar one, and I heard about the TO near the

23    municipality building.  Can't say I didn't because I did.

24       Q.   Do you know the members of these units, these Serbian TO people,

25    were wearing precisely the sort of uniform that you described the

Page 5363

 1    reservists wearing?

 2       A.   Yes, but their uniforms struck me as a little older for some

 3    reason.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  When you entered the hangar, were people being lined

 5    up in some sort of order or did they just stand wherever they wanted to?

 6    You've described your own position to us, haven't you?

 7       A.   No, Mr. Vasic.  People just rushed into the hangar, which is

 8    lightning quick, if you know what I mean.  Some people were struck down

 9    and some of them managed to escape.

10       Q.   Thank you.  I understand that.  I'm waiting for the

11    interpretation.

12            Can you tell us, sir, once you were inside the hangar, Mr. Cakalic

13    got in, and what about Mr. Guncevic, do you remember seeing him there?

14       A.   Mr. Vasic, I had not known Guncevic prior to this time; it was

15    only at Mitrovica that I learned his name.  And he was with me in

16    Mitrovica.  Other than that, I hadn't even recognised him in the hangar.

17            As for Cakalic, we go back a long way, 40 years at least.  I

18    rushed left on the way into the hangar and headed for the far end of the

19    hall.  And those at the back were beating and kicking people, and when my

20    turn came I tried to go more towards the middle of the crowd, and Cakalic

21    was right there, standing about three metres to my right.

22       Q.   Thank you.  You testified in chief about the beating of Mr. Damir

23    Samardzic, also known as Veliki Bojler and his relative Gaspar.  Where

24    were you when that occurred?  Just tell us about your whereabouts because

25    you told us about the rest yesterday.

Page 5364

 1       A.   I was still on the bus.  He was seated right in front of me on the

 2    same bus.  He went out the front door.  And Goran Vidas was on the bus,

 3    too.

 4       Q.   I asked you about this, because now I'm about to ask you something

 5    else.  There's a photograph that I would like to show you, and if you

 6    could please mark this spot where you saw these people being beaten as you

 7    were watching from the bus and when some of them fell down.

 8            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The ERN number, Your Honours,

 9    is 00531231.  This is photograph -- number 22, rather, page number 22.

10            Could you blow this up for us, please, or rather zoom in so we can

11    see the door to the hangar in the middle of the image.  Will you please

12    zoom in a bit more.

13       Q.   Is this all right for you, Mr. Berghofer?

14       A.   Yes.

15            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please hand the witness

16    a pen so that he can mark the spot for us, the spot where he saw Damjan

17    Samardzic and his relative being beaten as he was watching from the bus

18    and they remained on the ground.

19       Q.   Please place a cross to mark the spot where they were beaten and

20    put a number 1 there, please.

21       A.   [Marks].

22       Q.   Is there sufficient space -- sufficient room for you to mark where

23    they remained lying on the ground with a 2 and a 3?

24       A.   The same place, roughly speaking.  Off to the right there was a

25    ditch.  You know what a ditch is, right?

Page 5365

 1       Q.   Yes, of course I do.

 2       A.   A water ditch.

 3       Q.   Can you please put a small cross where the ditch was and put a

 4    number 2 there, please.

 5       A.   [Marks].

 6       Q.   Thank you.  Thank you very much, sir.  Now that we have the

 7    photograph up, can you please mark the position where you and the other

 8    persons were standing who were taken out of the hangar at one point

 9    waiting to be taken back to Vukovar and put a number 3 there, please.

10       A.   [Marks].

11       Q.   Just a small cross and a number 3.

12       A.   [Marks].

13       Q.   Thank you very much.

14            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek that this be

15    admitted into evidence, please.

16            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

17            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 231.

18            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I have a proposal to make.  We might

19    be needing this in the future, so we might want a blank photograph also to

20    be admitted into evidence because we are likely to be using it with some

21    future witnesses, to have a blank copy ready.

22            JUDGE PARKER:  It can come up on the screen quickly, Mr. Vasic.

23    Is that sufficient for your purposes?

24            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour.  If it's

25    quickly retrievable, there is no reason for it to be tendered as a

Page 5366

 1    separate exhibit.  Thank you.

 2            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 3            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I'll no longer be using this.  Thank

 4    you, Usher.

 5       Q.   Mr. Berghofer, you say you saw Mr. Cakalic on his way into the

 6    hangar or once he had entered.  You didn't see him being beaten outside,

 7    but you did see him being beaten inside the hangar.  Do you remember what

 8    he looked like after he had received the beating, when you saw him inside

 9    the hangar, or even perhaps when you saw him later on outside the hangar

10    as you were standing there.

11       A.   I think he was bruised on the right side of his body and he had

12    been beaten on his back.  That's what he complained about, at least.  But

13    nothing that particularly triggers any memories.

14       Q.   Thank you.  Does he aware glasses normally; do you know that?

15       A.   I know, he does, but not necessarily when he's just walking the

16    street.

17       Q.   What about the time you saw him inside the hangar?  Was he wearing

18    glasses or not?

19       A.   I don't know, Mr. Vasic.

20       Q.   Thank you.  You testified in chief about young Baumgertner and

21    Kemo, who was the man beating him, right?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Will you agree with me that while testifying in another case

24    before this Tribunal, the Dokmanovic case, you actually said you weren't

25    sure that the person was young Baumgertner.  You weren't sure then or at

Page 5367

 1    the time of testifying.  Is that correct?

 2       A.   That's quite correct, Mr. Vasic.  I'm still not absolutely

 3    positive about the person's identity.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  You say you saw Slavko Dokmanovic inside the hangar at

 5    one point in time.  Can you remember the exact time, please?

 6       A.   Mr. Vasic, the last time I testified - and you've got to take my

 7    word for it - my brain was just stuck for the exact time.  I couldn't for

 8    the life of me remember whether it was 1330 hours or what time it was.

 9    And believe me, I did actually look at the watch at the time.  It was

10    1330 hours, 1.30 p.m., the sun was high in the sky.  It was a beautiful

11    day.  By the time they had unloaded all of us, well, Dokmanovic might have

12    been there between 1400 hours and 1430 hours.  That's as specific as I can

13    be based on pure memory.  I wasn't exactly checking my watch.

14       Q.   I understand that.  It's very difficult to be more specific than

15    that, especially under the circumstances.  I wanted to have from you a

16    very general idea when he might have been there.

17            Sir, are you certain that the man you saw there between 1400 hours

18    and 1430 hours was Slavko Dokmanovic?

19       A.   Absolutely positive, 200 per cent, if you like.  He was the

20    municipal president, after all.  I could not have mistaken him for anybody

21    else.  He had something that looked very much like an aviator's uniform.

22       Q.   Thank you.  The reason I'm asking is there's information

23    indicating that Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic was in fact at a government meeting

24    at the same time you claim that he was at Ovcara.  That's why I'm asking

25    if you're positive.

Page 5368

 1       A.   Positive, Mr. Vasic.  I'm absolutely positive.

 2       Q.   You said that after Slavko Dokmanovic left you didn't see him

 3    again, that you saw a reservist coming into the hangar with a whistle.  Is

 4    that right?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Was that reservist a local?  Was he from the area of Vukovar?  Did

 7    you maybe know who he was?

 8       A.   I can't remember him, and I didn't know him, and I didn't

 9    recognise him.

10       Q.   Was he wearing the old uniform, the old reservist uniform that you

11    referred to when you talked about the TO of Vukovar?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Thank you.  After this reservist with a whistle came in, you were

14    taken out of the hangar, is that true, and that was before the beatings in

15    the hangar started.  Is that right?

16       A.   No, Mr. Vasic.  There were beatings, followed by more beatings,

17    and there were whistles, and one group was coming -- was coming out and

18    the other was coming in.  And it went on for about an hour and a half,

19    this relentless beating.

20       Q.   Yes, thank you.  But you heard the beatings, you heard the cries

21    and screams, and you didn't see it.  You came out of the hangar before it

22    started?

23       A.   That's not correct, Mr. Vasic.  You have been misinformed.  I saw

24    it.  I was an eye-witness.  People were beaten up in front of my very --

25    before my very eyes.  And then it continued after I left, so I heard the

Page 5369

 1    screams afterwards.  But before I went out of the hangar, I could see it

 2    and I could hear it.

 3       Q.   Did you make a different statement to Mr. Ivan --

 4            THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter didn't hear the second name.

 5            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

 6       Q.   -- An employee of the MUP in Croatia when you talked to him on

 7    the 21st of June, 1992?  Did you tell him that you were taken out of the

 8    hangar before the beatings started?

 9       A.   Mr. Vasic, Berghofer can never forget this, and I'm never going to

10    make a mistake about this.  You may rest assured that Berghofer, that is

11    to say myself, has never made a mistake about this at all.  I told you,

12    even before, we were beaten up even as we were -- this man would come in

13    with a whistle and then he would say:  That's enough.  And one group would

14    go out, and I said to myself:  Thank God.  But then the next group was in

15    in no time.  And it was just more of the same, and also later when I went

16    out I heard had that the beatings were still going on and the people were

17    still moaning and screaming.

18       Q.   Thank you.  You've explained all that.  What you have in front of

19    you is a document entitled "Official Report."  Can you find it?  It is

20    dated the 1st of June, 1992.

21       A.   Yes, I can see it.

22       Q.   It is on page 035 in the B/C/S version, 71460, and it's actually

23    page 3.

24            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] And for the sake of my learned friend,

25    in the English version it is 00578275, page 2.

Page 5370

 1       Q.   Could you be so kind, Mr. Berghofer, and look at the paragraph

 2    starting with "on the same day."

 3       A.   Are you on page 2 or on page 3?

 4       Q.   On page 3.  So halfway through the page, a paragraph starting "on

 5    the same day."  Just below the reference to the Frenchman.

 6       A.   So that's what it is, "Official Report."  Is that it?

 7       Q.   Yes.  So this is the first page where it says "Official Report,"

 8    and then another page, and then it's on the next page, on page number 3.

 9       A.   So page number 3, fine.

10       Q.   Halfway down the page the words "on the same day."

11       A.   Yes, I can see it.

12       Q.   Can you read it through and the sentence that follows as well.

13       A.   "On the same day at around 5.30 the reservist entered the hangar

14    once again and he indicated by blowing a whistle that the most brutal

15    physical abuse and mistreatment should start."

16       Q.   And the next phrase, please.

17       A.   "Before the start of this abuse, Goran Ivankovic came along and

18    separated me from the rest."

19       Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember stating this?

20       A.   Yes.  But it wasn't at 5.30; it was at 3.30.  I'm not the only one

21    saying that.  If you have any other witnesses from Ovcara -- I will tell

22    you, as we were leaving Ovcara it was getting a little bit darker and a

23    car with the headlights on was driving in the opposite direction.  Do you

24    agree that there may have been a mistake in the note-taking or the

25    translation or whatever?

Page 5371

 1       Q.   Certainly.  So what you are arguing about is the time and not the

 2    content?  You are saying that it's 3.30?

 3       A.   Yes, 3.30.

 4       Q.   Thank you.

 5            MR. MOORE:  I'm sorry, just before the matter proceeds, I've got

 6    the document.  I don't accuse my learned friend of misquoting in any way

 7    at all.  But as far as I can see, from a typed copy there is no signature

 8    from Mr. Berghofer, indicating that this is his statement.  It is a

 9    report.  Is that right or not?  Because before my learned friend tries to

10    tie down the witness, surely in fairness he should be asked whether he saw

11    the contents of this statement, whether he agreed the statement, and

12    whether in actual fact it's accurate and accords with his recollection.

13            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is precisely for this

14    reason that at the start of my cross-examination I talked to the witness

15    about all the statements or the documents that he had signed and that

16    other people had signed on the basis of what he had said, and it was all

17    in his presence.  I have no intention of misleading or confusing the

18    witness in any way.  I've shown all these statements to him at the very

19    start of my cross-examination.

20            MR. MOORE:  Well, all I'm saying, quite simply, is if it is

21    Mr. Berghofer's statement, could my learned friend please refer me to

22    where the signature is supposed to be, because I've looked at both the

23    typed copy and the original and I can't find any signature whatsoever.

24    Now, I don't deny my learned friend can cross-examine, but he has to have

25    a correct basis for it.

Page 5372

 1            JUDGE PARKER:  Is it not the effect of the earlier evidence,

 2    Mr. Vasic, that this may have been somebody's compilation from what was

 3    said rather than an actual statement of this witness?

 4            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't tell the witness

 5    that this was his statement.  I just said that it was an official report

 6    from the MUP employee that he had talked to, and this record has been made

 7    on the basis of that interview, and I don't suppose the witness is

 8    confused in any way.

 9            JUDGE PARKER:  I think you shouldn't rely on the witness

10    remembering back to your questions before the break on that, just so that

11    this is clear that this is not an actual signed statement of the witness,

12    and then your questioning can proceed.

13            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14       Q.   Mr. Berghofer, we'll have to dwell on this statement a little bit

15    longer.

16            Is this statement that I asked you about -- or rather, this

17    official record, what Ivan Dodaj [as interpreted], a MUP employee, wrote

18    down after your account of the events following his official meeting with

19    you?

20       A.   Ivan Dodaj may well be his name, but I'm telling you:  You know

21    that as early as the 20th of November at 4.00, it is already dark and I

22    stressed in all my statements -- let's forget about this Dodaj.  I really

23    have no idea who he is.  But I never made this mistake because otherwise

24    it would have been at night-time that we had left Ovcara.  We left when

25    there was still day-light, and darkness was beginning to fall and another

Page 5373

 1    car was driving from the opposite direction and the lights were already

 2    on.  And I said over and over again that we spent about two hours at

 3    Ovcara.

 4       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Berghofer.  All I was asking you about was whether

 5    you did indeed talk to this person and whether this text that you did not

 6    sign, you recognise your own words.  Maybe he made a mistake about the

 7    time.  What I want to know is whether you remember the fact that you gave

 8    a statement to this official at the time when he indicates this in his

 9    report.

10       A.   Mr. Vasic, what follows is incorrect as well, because some Dodaj

11    can't go misrepresenting my memory of the events and about the beatings,

12    et cetera.  It is not correct.  It just does not tally with the way these

13    events actually took place.  First of all, there was these horrible

14    beatings.  People were being massacred, and then Ivankovic came along

15    after that, Goran Ivankovic.  Let me just stress once again:  Bulidza was

16    not there at the time, the guy from the municipality, the president,

17    Dokmanovic, was not there at the time.

18       Q.   Thank you, sir.  All I'm interested in is one thing:  Did you have

19    this interview with this MUP employee and did he record your words

20    wrongly?  I would just like to know whether you did talk to him, but

21    obviously you didn't sign the statement, and that's it.

22       A.   Mr. Vasic, this was on the 1st of June, 1992.  Some guys came

23    along to Hotel Plitvice -- but believe me, I really don't remember this.

24    And also you must believe me that I can't go wrong on that.  Such horrific

25    events remain etched in your mind forever, and I do remember that quite

Page 5374

 1    clearly.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  I'm not going to dwell on this document any longer.

 3            Can you tell me:  When were you taken out of the hangar, at what

 4    time approximately?

 5       A.   At around 3.30, about 20 minutes -- 25 minutes that we spent

 6    waiting outside, because as far as I can remember, and I have a vague

 7    memory of this, somebody else was supposed to come.  My former wife's

 8    cousin was supposed to come with us, but he didn't want to because of his

 9    son.  You see, both Medjesi men, the father and the son, and I didn't put

10    their names on the list as victims at Ovcara.  I couldn't remember them at

11    first, but they were there as well.

12       Q.   Can you tell me:  When you were taken out of the hangar, were

13    there any other people there?  Were you the last one to be taken out of

14    the hanger or did anyone else follow?

15       A.   You mean after this group of people, five or six of us?

16       Q.   I mean within this group.

17       A.   No, I didn't see anyone.  Those of us who were taken out, I keep

18    remembering these names.  I've been remembering them for the past 15

19    years, and I keep saying the same thing for the past 15 years.

20       Q.   You didn't understand my question.

21       A.   Tell me again.

22       Q.   You said that the group of you, five to six people, were standing

23    in the place that you indicated.  What I'm interested in is whether you

24    were let out of the hangar at the same time or one by one?

25       A.   At the same time.

Page 5375

 1       Q.   It is quite clear now.  Thank you.

 2                          [Defence counsel confer]

 3            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4       Q.   If I were to tell you that a witness whom we have heard from in

 5    connection with these beatings accompanied by the reservists' whistles had

 6    said that the group that he was standing with outside - and you were

 7    within that group as well - did not witness the beatings but had only

 8    heard that and had seen people perpetrating the beatings coming in and

 9    out, would you still stand by your previous statement?

10       A.   Mr. Vasic, once I'd been beaten up, there were tears coming out of

11    my eyes.  My knees were trembling.  I was bleeding, and at one point I

12    stumbled and I let the blood fall on to the ground because I didn't want

13    any stains to remain on my clothes because I knew I would be wearing the

14    same clothes the next day.  And I don't know what witness could have said

15    that, but maybe he was deaf and blind and he might have not seen it.

16       Q.   Thank you.  I would just like to refer to the page 3278 in the

17    transcript and 3347.  Thank you.

18            And if I were to tell you that the witness we have heard from here

19    said that this group which set out for Vukovar left at night-time at

20    around 6.00, would you still claim that you left earlier?

21       A.   6.00 means total darkness.  And let me just stress once again that

22    it was sunset -- well, Mr. Vasic, it might have been a quarter past 4.00

23    or a 20 past 4.00, and as soon as we got to Velepromet, it was dark.

24       Q.   Thank you.

25            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's on pages 3316

Page 5376

 1    and 3317 of the transcript.

 2       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Berghofer.  Now I have another question.  When you

 3    were within the hangar and outside the hangar, you saw no JNA officers

 4    there.  You've already said that.

 5       A.   I don't know whether I've already said that.  I did not see any

 6    officers, but I saw young soldiers.  And, Mr. Vasic, you can't see

 7    everything because there was a huge crowd.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  Also in the course of your stay at Ovcara you didn't

 9    see any tractors, either within the hangar or near the hangar?

10       A.   You keep saying:  Is that right?  Is that right?  You're going

11    really fast.  There were some machines to the right.  I know that the

12    light wasn't very good.  We even had electricity, you know, but the light

13    bulb wasn't very good, so it was pretty dark in the hangar.

14       Q.   Do you remember whether when you gave evidence before the court in

15    Belgrade, do you remember whether you were asked about the presence of a

16    tractor and you said that you didn't see any?  Do you remember that?

17       A.   Mr. Vasic, may I tell you something about these transcripts from

18    Belgrade?

19       Q.   Of course.

20       A.   I said that we bought an ox from a Serb in Vukovar, and what it

21    read in the transcript was that they bought a plane.  You can read it in

22    the transcript.  It says so on page 6.  Yeah, there was something.  It

23    could have been a bulldozer or something, but I'm not sure.  There was

24    something up but I can't remember what it was.

25       Q.   Thank you.  That's the answer.  I'm not trying to force you to

Page 5377

 1    tell me something that you don't remember.  Thank you.

 2            Can you tell me:  As you were standing in front of the hangar with

 3    these other people for 20 or 25 minutes, did you see if any other

 4    prisoners were taken out of the hangar?

 5       A.   What did you say?  20, 25 minutes or what -- you mean when we were

 6    taken out?

 7       Q.   When you were taken out, as you were standing in front of the

 8    hangar, did you see if any other prisoners were taken out of the hangar

 9    during that time?

10       A.   I could see our group and the Medjesi man, but he returned, he

11    didn't want to come with us because his son was left behind, as far as I

12    can remember.

13       Q.   Thank you.  Whilst you were standing outside, did you see any

14    buses arrive at the hangar?

15       A.   I do not remember, Mr. Vasic.  I think not, and -- I think not

16    80 per cent, but mostly I don't remember, in fact.

17       Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me whether you remember how long it took

18    you to get from Ovcara to Velepromet and then Modateks, if you can?

19       A.   Yes, I can.  Some 15 minutes it would have been normally, but in

20    this way it took us about 25 minutes.  The drive was slow because we

21    couldn't all fit into the van properly, so we were sitting one on top of

22    the other, and Cakalic was sitting next to the driver in the front seat.

23       Q.   Do you remember who was driving the van?

24       A.   I don't, Mr. Vasic.  But I know that Goran Ivankovic was present.

25    As to whether he was driving or not, I really don't know.

Page 5378

 1       Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned you saw Tomislav Pap and you said he was

 2    the warehouse keeper at the hospital with Dr. Vesna Bosanac.  What would

 3    you say if I were to tell you that Mrs. Vesna Bosanac indicated that he

 4    was a soldier when she compiled her own list?  Would that be possible?

 5       A.   It is up to Dr. Bosanac because she's more intelligent and she

 6    probably knows better than I do.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  That's Exhibit 39.

 8            May I just come back to this hangar at Ovcara for a moment.

 9    Replying to my learned friend's question, you said that the people were

10    beaten up as they got off the bus.  What I'd like to know is whether you

11    saw whether everybody else was beaten up once you were in the hangar or do

12    you only assume that?

13       A.   I can't guarantee that every single man was beaten up, but that

14    people were being beaten up, and especially the ones at the end of the

15    circle because they were coming in and looking at the crowd because they

16    always had it in for someone, if you see what I mean.  They felt hatred

17    for someone and they wanted to hurt them.

18       Q.   So some people were particularly picked on?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Do you know why, because of their participation in some crime or

21    because of some former personal relations or problems?

22       A.   Mr. Vasic, I'm in no position to reply to that.  Some -- most of

23    them were actually young -- younger than me, 30 years younger than me,

24    so ...

25       Q.   Thank you.  And let me conclude on Ovcara, and I'd like to move on

Page 5379

 1    to when you were taken to Sremska Mitrovica and my colleague will deal

 2    with the other matters.

 3            Can you tell me:  When you arrived at Sremska Mitrovica, were you

 4    beaten up and did you have to run the gauntlet there as well as the same

 5    way at Ovcara?

 6       A.   Mr. Vasic, I've been here for five days now, and I've always been

 7    asked:  How is it going, Mr. Berghofer?  And I always said:  Very good,

 8    very well.  But after my testimony yesterday, I had a sleepless night and

 9    I probably will have one tomorrow [as interpreted] as well, because this

10    is really painful.  These are painful memories and -- but I'm still

11    finding it in myself.  I'm still trying to summon up the strength to tell

12    you:  You didn't know where it was worse, where it was more horrific, at

13    Ovcara, or in Mitrovica.  And I'm very pleased, Mr. Vasic, that you've

14    asked me a question about Mitrovica.

15       Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Berghofer.

16       A.   Do you want me to go on?

17       Q.   I asked you about the gauntlet.  Do you remember that?

18       A.   Yes.  I remember that very well indeed.  You know, Mr. Vasic, it's

19    not the sort of thing you can ever forget.  There was a gauntlet on either

20    side.  We passed through it and were beaten in the process.  The late

21    Zeljko Bujan [phoen] dropped one of his shoes, so he went back to get it,

22    and hen he was beaten again.

23       Q.   Mr. Berghofer, I have some specific questions about this.

24       A.   Please go ahead.

25       Q.   I'm trying to finish my cross-examination by the end of the day,

Page 5380

 1    if I can.  I'm really doing my best, but I do have several questions about

 2    this.

 3            You told us how it was over there.  Did you give any statements

 4    there to any security officers, military security officers, while you were

 5    at Mitrovica?

 6       A.   Mr. Vasic, not as far as I remember, although a man called Soljic

 7    was killed right next to me.  I'm really sorry that you didn't allow me to

 8    go on about that so I can tell that story, too.

 9       Q.   You have my sincerest apologies, Mr. Berghofer, it's just that I'm

10    running out of time here.

11       A.   I understand.  Please go ahead.

12       Q.   You weren't interviewed and you provided no statements throughout

13    your time there, right?

14       A.   I just signed a petition.  There was some lads who were on their

15    way to see President Tudjman so that he could have us released.

16       Q.   Thank you.  During your time at Sremska Mitrovica, did you see any

17    people from Vukovar's TO, people you knew from Vukovar?  Did any of those

18    come to Sremska Mitrovica at any point in time?

19       A.   Sure they did, Mr. Vasic.  For example, Gani Jakaj [phoen], a

20    local baker and friend of mine, Ljubo Pribudic, a neighbour of mine.

21       Q.   What were they doing there?

22       A.   At Mitrovica, you mean?

23       Q.   Yes.

24       A.   Well, nothing much.  They were prisoners there, right?

25       Q.   No, no, no.  What I'm asking you about is members of the Serbian

Page 5381

 1    TO from Vukovar.  Did any of those people ever come to Mitrovica?

 2       A.   Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Vasic.  I don't think I understood you the

 3    first time around.  Well, you see, there was a curtain and behind the

 4    curtain there was Petar Rukalo [phoen], he was hiding there.  I think his

 5    mother's maiden name was Ikac.  He had taken cover behind that curtain.

 6    And then there was this man called Dzoga Jovanovic, a drummer, and the

 7    officer was asking me questions.  I had to give my father's name,

 8    Baltazar.  He smiled and he said:  One of those cartoon characters, right?

 9    And I said:  No, he's slightly bit older.  He asked me about my nickname,

10    and I said:  Beli.  I was a good-natured person, so I was handing out

11    lighters, cigarette lighters, to all sorts of people from the hospital.

12    And I faired pretty well on that day, I can say that, I think.  Yet there

13    were people who were hiding behind the curtain.

14            And on one occasion, young Rodic turned up in uniform.  He was a

15    reserve captain.  He lives three houses down the street from me, but he

16    did not even notice me.  Also, if you could help me out with this,

17    Sokocanin [phoen], his best man, the warehouse man who got away.  Can you

18    give me a hand with that?

19       Q.   Goran Hadzic, you mean?

20       A.   Yes, thank you so much for helping me out.  Goran Hadzic came

21    once, and he said -- it was stinking so badly inside because there were

22    154 of us in a single room and nobody could lie down on the floor.  We

23    were packed like sardines standing up.  That's all I remember.

24       Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Berghofer.  I just have one question

25    left, and I need to go back to something.

Page 5382

 1            You said you were being questioned by an officer, right?  My

 2    question was:  Did you give any statements or anything?  So who was this

 3    officer asking you questions?

 4       A.   I really don't know.  I was questioned on three different

 5    occasions, one of which was particularly dreadful.  I have a strong voice,

 6    but when he spoke up the whole room was shaking.  That's how loud he was

 7    speaking.

 8       Q.   Did any of them ever introduce themselves, told you their names?

 9       A.   No one ever, Mr. Vasic.

10       Q.   What I want to know is after these -- the interrogations conducted

11    by these officers, did you sign any statements or did they perhaps compile

12    official notes of some sort, a record?

13       A.   I don't remember signing the last one I told you about.  But guess

14    what he asked me:  How many Serbs were killed in your cellar?  That was a

15    question he asked me.  And I replied:  Can you please repeat that

16    question?  And he said:  How many Serbs were killed in your cellar?  And I

17    said:  Sir, thank you very much.  To my great fortunate, none at all.  And

18    he said:  I didn't say you necessarily, but who did?

19            Mr. Vasic, at this point he told me:  We have other ways of

20    interrogating people.  You know that?  At this point, I was nearly

21    fainting with fear, but the man didn't even touch me, as opposed to the

22    one previously at Mitrovica.

23       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Berghofer.

24            MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems that time is up

25    now.  I just have one subject to cover.  I think I won't take more than 10

Page 5383

 1    or 15 minutes at the very most.

 2            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

 3            Well, we've reached the time when we must adjourn today.  We will

 4    resume tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning, and hopefully we will finish

 5    Mr. Berghofer's evidence in the course of tomorrow.

 6            We will now adjourn.

 7                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.17 p.m.,

 8                          to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of

 9                          March, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.