Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5576

1 Tuesday, 7 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. May I remind you, sir, of the

7 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence, which still

8 applies.

9 Mr. Domazet.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour. [Interpretation] Good

13 morning to everyone.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Domazet: [Continued]

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dodaj, good morning.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. We will continue where we left off yesterday. If you will recall,

18 we talked about the position where your unit was before you surrendered.

19 From the description that you gave here in these proceedings, and you will

20 tell me if I am right or not, it seems right in front of you you did not

21 have or you did not see any enemy soldiers, if I can call them that. What

22 you saw were houses, mostly empty houses which you entered occasionally to

23 take various items, such as underwear?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On the day you decided and agreed with your mates to surrender,

Page 5577

1 was that the direction you took to go to Vukovar?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You left in uniforms and you all had weapons.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The three other soldiers whom you saw later in the police station,

6 Kuscevic, Kobas --

7 THE INTERPRETER: And the third name the interpreter didn't hear.

8 Q. They were there in that area that you talked about?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Just to repeat for the transcript, I will repeat the names. One

11 is Kuscevic, the second one is Rasid, and the third one is Kobas; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know how it could have happened that on that same day those

15 three soldiers were arrested, probably in that same area that you passed

16 without any problems and you asked, as you explained, to be brought in

17 touch with the ZNG there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know how it happened that they came to be captured?

20 A. Nobody lived in those houses. There were cases that people from

21 MUP came to those houses, and some soldiers came at that point. Perhaps

22 soldiers entered those houses and the police officers came at the same

23 time and that's how they were captured. Probably the soldiers did not put

24 any -- up any resistance, and that's how they were captured, most

25 probably.

Page 5578

1 Q. When you say the MUP, you mean the MUP from Croatia, MUP from

2 Croatia, from Vukovar?

3 A. Yes, the MUP from Croatia.

4 Q. What you said, is that something that you assume or is that

5 something that you heard?

6 A. That's what they told me. I don't know how true that is.

7 Q. Mr. Dodaj, when you were talking about the order to open fire as a

8 response to fire from the other side, and that it used to happen that fire

9 was opened not only because of incoming fire, but because of noises, you

10 mentioned the rustling of corn-stalks and other sounds, because of which

11 you opened fire on your side. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can that mean that your assertion that fire was opened constantly

14 day and night is not true? I'm speaking about your unit.

15 A. Look, fire was opened on a daily basis. It wasn't being done from

16 minute to minute. Five to six times a day we fired. At night there were

17 more fierce attacks. There was more firing, firing from tanks, from

18 armoured vehicles, from infantry weapons. At night we didn't see anybody

19 coming towards us or hear anything, but you could hear the rustling. And

20 sometimes in the dark if you were looking in one single direction, then

21 the image would shift. This would happen.

22 Q. In front of the tanks and the armoured vehicles there was a space

23 that wasn't guarded in any other way other than the tanks, the

24 transporters, the armoured vehicles, and you who were securing that area;

25 is that correct?

Page 5579

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So if I understand you correctly, it would have happen, especially

3 at night, that there would be more fire, more because of a fear of an

4 attack from that side or in order to prevent an attack?

5 A. Fire was probably opened out of fear, because in Sremska Mitrovica

6 they kept harping on about how there were 20.000 Ustashas in Vukovar.

7 Q. So you believe that especially at night there was a danger of an

8 attack being carried out?

9 A. I didn't believe that. I knew that nobody would attack us or that

10 anybody would come there.

11 Q. In view of the fact that you were not personally present and were

12 not able to hear the orders, do you know if in front of you or from any

13 side there were JNA units or some other units that were moving to the

14 centre of Vukovar and this fire of yours was supposed to cover them in

15 some way? You know what I'm talking about, to strike at positions in

16 front of them?

17 A. There were no JNA units in front of us.

18 Q. Well, not immediately from what you said, but further along in

19 Vukovar, yes?

20 A. Yes. Well, maybe from some other side, but not directly in front

21 of us, no.

22 Q. Would you agree with me that if fire was opened without any

23 targeting positions of those who were in Vukovar and were attacking

24 Vukovar and going from street to street would also be in danger of being

25 hit, since we heard from witnesses that there was a house-to-house combat

Page 5580

1 and fighting for each house?

2 A. I don't know what you want me to say to that. I really don't

3 understand your question.

4 Q. Very well. We won't press on that, because you were not able to

5 hear the orders directly, but you did say something about that. The order

6 to your unit, was it to control the Vukovar-Vinkovci road, that axis, and

7 to prevent any transport and to open fire if it was in danger or attacked?

8 A. No. Sir, we cut off that road so nobody used that road anymore.

9 We were not controlling the road. What I'm talking about is that there

10 was shooting at the town without any control. We were not hitting any

11 police lines or positions of the ZNG. We were hitting the entire town of

12 Vukovar. There were houses in front of us. JNA officers by day would

13 climb on a tree and they would hit Bogdanovci out of snipers.

14 Q. When you say that you cut off the road, does that mean -- well,

15 you say that nobody appeared. Had somebody appeared, you had orders to

16 act, didn't you, because that was why that unit was there?

17 A. Well, we probably would have opened fire at those people,

18 regardless of whether they were civilians or soldiers.

19 Q. When we're talking about incoming fire in relation to you, I think

20 that you said that only once it happened that there was a mortar attack

21 and that was when the captain and another soldier was seriously, wounded

22 and I think that you said that this happened on the 17th of September. Is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes. I couldn't really tell you exactly what date, but it was

25 sometime between the 14th and the 16th of September. There were four

Page 5581

1 mortar shells that hit our position. It was in the middle of the day.

2 Q. When you were talking about the 14th and the 17th or that period,

3 I think you said that that was the period of the fiercest attacks by the

4 JNA, and that up to the 14th there were no such attacks, and then after

5 the 14th they lasted for several days?

6 A. Well, no, there were no such strong attacks. They also used

7 airplanes to strike.

8 Q. So it means that during those days, during the fiercest fighting

9 and the attacks using artillery and even airplanes as you say against

10 Vukovar, that was when this mortar attack on your positions occurred; is

11 that correct?

12 A. If you believe that four mortars were sent to our positions and

13 then we hit back with over 100 mortars back, I don't know what sort of an

14 attack you're talking about. Had we not been there, nobody would have

15 attacked. Had we stayed in the barracks, nobody would have attacked us,

16 probably, most likely.

17 Q. I hope that we're understanding each other properly, that these

18 four shells dropped, hit your positions as you said. And you say that

19 these were the only shells during that entire time?

20 A. During the 24-day period, these were the only shells that fell at

21 our positions. This is something that I guarantee. I have no reason to

22 lie.

23 Q. Well, that is precisely one of my questions. Is it logical that

24 only that one single time your position was hit by mortars during the time

25 when the fiercest attacks were being carried out against the other side

Page 5582

1 and then, as you claim, there were no other attacks after that. Are you

2 saying this because that -- there is evidence that the captain was

3 seriously wounded that day, and that's why you're only talking about that

4 day?

5 A. I only know about that day.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. When somebody is shelling the town with airplanes, I don't know

8 which soldiers would fire back at that very instance, especially soldiers

9 who did not have the proper weaponry.

10 Q. When you mentioned the airplanes, I think that you said - and I'm

11 asking you whether this was on the 14th of September - that you saw the

12 airplanes in action over Vukovar for the first time?

13 A. I saw planes before, but between the 14th and the 16th and

14 the 17th they were really rocketing the town.

15 Q. That is exactly what I'm asking you.

16 A. They would come down from Negoslavci and hit the town.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please pause between answer

18 and question. Thank you.

19 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I apologise because of the

20 transcript it wasn't recorded precisely.

21 Q. You said that then between the 14th and the 17th you saw planes in

22 action, they were shelling, and then before that you saw on some other

23 days that the planes were just flying over?

24 A. They were flying over and then they would fire the occasional

25 shell. But between the 14th and the 16th they were really using all

Page 5583

1 available means to shell the town. The whole town was burning. There was

2 a cloud of smoke in front of us.

3 Q. Well, you must admit that you were quite far from the town.

4 That's how you described the positions and explained it on the map.

5 A. I don't know how far that was in kilometres, but there was smoke

6 in front of us and you could see the water-tower in front of us very well.

7 Q. Are you sure that from the position where you were dug in with

8 your unit you were able to see the water-tower?

9 A. Yes, and we did hit the water-tower, not once but several times,

10 because there was a Croatian flag flying on the water-tower.

11 Q. Is there an elevation, you know what I mean, a hill between the

12 positions where you were and Vukovar itself?

13 A. No.

14 Q. According to you, the terrain is straight and flat and there were

15 no elevations or anything that could impede the view of the water-tower

16 from there?

17 A. No, it was all flat and visible.

18 Q. You talked about it yesterday, and you also mentioned it earlier,

19 that during the attacks, during those days that you're talking about,

20 three civilians surrendered?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. My question is: How did you conclude that these were civilians

23 when you said about one of them that he was carrying a Kalashnikov? Is

24 that because they wore civilian clothing or was there some other reason,

25 since at least one of them was armed and he had a weapon such as a

Page 5584

1 Kalashnikov?

2 A. They were civilians. They were probably civilians. They were not

3 soldiers; they were not wearing uniforms. They did have Kalashnikov; they

4 did have a rifle.

5 Q. So you made that assessment based on the fact that they wore

6 civilian clothes. My question is: Those who called themselves the

7 defenders of Vukovar, did they all have uniforms. Or was it not the case

8 that the majority did not have uniforms and wore their own civilian

9 clothes?

10 A. Some had uniforms, some wore civilian clothes.

11 Q. So you will agree with me that just because they wore civilian

12 clothes does not mean that they were civilians. They could also have been

13 fighting in Vukovar?

14 A. Well, as far as whether they were fighting in Vukovar, if they

15 were fighting, why were they fleeing from Vukovar? They surrendered to

16 the army, to the soldiers, because they believed that the JNA would save

17 them.

18 Q. For the record, let us repeat. You said that some of those who

19 were involved in the Home Guards Corps wore uniforms, others didn't and

20 wore their civilian clothes in that fighting?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Speaking of the three that you said were later taken to

23 Negoslavci, you mentioned that you had heard later at the police station

24 that the three men had been killed. How come that you were able to hear

25 that in Vukovar if all that happened in Negoslavci?

Page 5585

1 A. When I ran away from the JNA, when I came to the police, I told

2 the policemen that three civilians had surrendered to the army, that they

3 were tied, and remained overnight bound, that the mosquitos bit them all

4 over, and the policemen told me that two of them had been killed, whereas

5 the third one had been -- had been put on a cross, on a train carriage,

6 and then killed with a tank grenade.

7 Q. I have to wait. How were those people in Vukovar able to know

8 that it was precisely those three that had been killed in the way you

9 describe? There were many incidents, many people must have surrendered?

10 A. Because I told them that they were running towards our positions,

11 where I was, in order to surrender.

12 Q. But they were not killed in Vukovar. You said yourself that they

13 had been taken to Negoslavci.

14 A. I can guarantee they're not alive. You should take my word for

15 it.

16 Q. It's your assumption, you don't have any proof of that, do you?

17 When you surrendered, as you describe, you said you spent three days at

18 the police station practically in detention while you were being vetted,

19 together with the other three soldiers?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. After that vetting, you obviously enjoyed the full confidence of

22 those people, because they told you, as you testified yesterday, that you

23 were free to do what you like, you could leave Vukovar or stay, although

24 it later turned out that you couldn't, actually. You were not able to

25 leave Vukovar?

Page 5586

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. In your opinion, and from what you saw that day and in the

3 following days, did the defence of Vukovar have so many men that they

4 didn't need people like you who were former soldiers, had adequate

5 training, that they had such resources that they were able to dispense

6 with you?

7 A. The very fact that we deserted from that army and we were very

8 young, I was 19, and we told them we wished to go towards Vinkovci, if we

9 can get transport towards Zagreb, but they were not able to take us out of

10 Vukovar because Vukovar was encircled. The three of us who joined the

11 defence of Vukovar, it made no difference to their fate with or without

12 us. There were only three of us.

13 Q. You are talking about the three of you, whereas the total number

14 was seven or eight?

15 A. Five surrendered and three were captured. Srecko Ravlija lost his

16 leg. He was hit by a shell and he lost his leg and he remained back in

17 the hospital.

18 Q. I'm asking you about the days after you were released following

19 the vetting when they trusted you. He didn't lose his leg then; it must

20 have been later. At the moment I'm talking about, the decision was being

21 made -- please wait for the end of the question.

22 At the moment I'm talking about, the decision was being made

23 whether you were going to join or you were going to leave. Was it

24 logical, does it make sense for them to offer you freedom when you were

25 trained soldiers and Croats rather than stay with them and fight, because

Page 5587

1 in view of the losses they didn't -- they couldn't have had too many men?

2 A. Well, at the beginning they did their very best to take us out of

3 Vukovar.

4 Q. But you probably knew, since you were in the unit that prevented

5 any further communication along the road to Vukovar, you knew that it was

6 impossible?

7 A. Well, we thought that maybe some passage was possible still.

8 Q. I have a question for you personally. When you were making your

9 choice about whether to surrender or not, was it motivated by the desire

10 to leave the JNA and go home, or to leave the JNA and join the other side

11 and fight on their side?

12 A. I left the army simply because I didn't want to be in that army,

13 because I thought it was a criminal army committing an aggression. It

14 wasn't our army. I left simply because I didn't see it as my army. And

15 nobody forced me to join either the MUP or the defence of Vukovar. It was

16 my choice.

17 Q. You again failed to answer my question. What was your motivation?

18 Yes, I understand you wanted to leave the army, but did you want to leave

19 the army and go home or to join somebody else?

20 A. At the moment when I was running away, the idea was to go home.

21 Q. You mentioned, and I can refresh your memory, that precisely

22 around that time on the 24th your unit was about to be replaced when you

23 made your decision. Was that the decisive factor that pushed you to

24 surrender?

25 A. Yes, the replacement was coming within days. I even think that

Page 5588

1 people on those positions had been there for a little over a month.

2 Q. So that was the time when the replacement was about to occur, and

3 your unit was going to leave that Vukovar front line anyway; is that so?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You knew that, but that didn't suit you. Wasn't that the -- an

6 easier way to be done with the army, certainly easier than the way you

7 chose to leave the army. Doesn't that demonstrate that your real desire

8 was to join the other side in Vukovar?

9 A. My real wish was to leave that army as soon as I can.

10 Q. You told us that your colleague Dukana [as interpreted] was

11 somewhere from Marinci from the surrounding area and that he was helpful

12 because he was familiar with the terrain and he accompanied you.

13 Dohanaj. If I am not mistaken, Marinci is very close to the positions

14 where you were located but not facing Vukovar but on the other side?

15 A. Well, if you go towards Vinkovci, first comes Bogdanovci, then

16 Marinci.

17 Q. Just let me check the transcript. So you said that it's

18 Bogdanovci and then Marinci that come first. So it's around there.

19 Didn't you decide to go towards Marinci because that must have been an

20 easier way to leave the JNA, that's where his house and his family was?

21 A. If we had decided that way, that would have been more dangerous.

22 It was easier to go towards Vukovar, then towards Bogdanovci.

23 Q. Let us go back to this police station where you spent some time.

24 You said yourself that you had spent several days there, and you mentioned

25 that it had its own prison, probably down there in the basement?

Page 5589

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You also mentioned some prisoners?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In view of the time you spent there, and that for a while you were

5 officially part of their police force, you must know who those people were

6 and why they were kept prisoner?

7 A. They were dressed in soldiers' uniforms. They were reservists, at

8 least four of them were reservists, and there was one elderly woman with

9 her husband, and I think her son was the JNA captain in the Vukovar

10 barracks.

11 Q. That's what you mentioned in your statements. I'm interested in

12 knowing this: This elderly woman whom you believed to be the mother of

13 some JNA captain who was in the barracks, why would that put her in jail?

14 Because she was detained, as you said, together with her husband.

15 A. It was safer for her to be on the premises of that prison than

16 anywhere outside. And let me just tell you, they got the same food that

17 the policemen ate, nobody touched a hair on their heads inside, they were

18 not beaten, they got everything that --

19 Q. I didn't ask you that. What I really want to know is the reason

20 why they, especially this elderly woman, should have been inside. Is that

21 your assumption, or did you hear anybody saying that she was kept there to

22 keep her safe?

23 A. I don't know. I just heard that one -- that her son was a JNA

24 captain. In the end of all of them were released.

25 Q. At the end of which -- at the end of what?

Page 5590

1 A. When the MUP building burned down.

2 Q. When was that?

3 A. I think it was the 15th, between the 13th and the 15th. I can't

4 remember exactly which date it was. I think in November the MUP building

5 burnt down.

6 Q. So it must have been a couple of days before the fall of Vukovar?

7 A. You could say that. Maybe seven, maybe 10 days before.

8 Q. Did you hear or see or know about any other captive JNA members?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Nobody but the people you mentioned as being in the police

11 station, you never heard or saw anyone else?

12 A. Nobody. Nobody apart from the four I mentioned, and this elderly

13 woman with her husband.

14 Q. Speaking of the hospital, you mentioned that there were three JNA

15 members; one sergeant and two soldiers. I'm not going to deal with the

16 hospital now, I'll come to it later, but they were certainly taken

17 prisoner?

18 A. They were not.

19 Q. Did you --

20 A. They were not held prisoner. They were at the hospital and they

21 were undergoing treatment.

22 Q. Yes. But in order to reach the hospital in the surrounded

23 Vukovar, they must have been taken prisoner and brought there?

24 A. They were given assistance there, they were given treatment.

25 Q. Of course they were receiving treatment. We know that, we have

Page 5591

1 information. But they arrived at the hospital as wounded captives, people

2 who had been taken prisoner.

3 Please, let us try not to interrupt each other. Let us observe a

4 pause between question and answer, and you start answering when I finish

5 my question.

6 Since you later spoke about this, did you, during your day with

7 the police, find out how they were taken prisoner?

8 A. I knew they were at the hospital, I didn't know they were taken

9 prisoner. I know there were negotiating with Raseta not to shell the

10 hospital.

11 Q. How did you know that?

12 A. The MUP men told us, because the policemen kept guard outside that

13 room lest anybody came in.

14 Q. You mean a policeman at the hospital?

15 A. Yes. Outside the ward where they were lying.

16 Q. So you heard at the police station that they were negotiating.

17 When was that?

18 A. I really don't know. I know that they were talking, the sergeant

19 was talking to Raseta about the shelling of the hospital. I think this

20 man was commander of the barracks in Zagreb.

21 Q. Please let me finish my question and don't interrupt me.

22 You heard that at the police station, you cannot put a date on it,

23 was it before the police station burnt down or later? Could that be a --

24 an indicator of time?

25 A. Before the police station burnt down.

Page 5592

1 Q. Speaking of the fighting in Vukovar itself, I think you've said

2 that the resistance was very weak, almost none. However, some other

3 witnesses testified that there was fighting for every single house. Did

4 you hear anything about that?

5 A. No. I don't know anything about house-to-house combat or fighting

6 for every house. I know nothing about that.

7 Q. Do you know what HOS was?

8 A. HOS?

9 Q. HOS.

10 A. I know that now. Today I know what HOS was. But I don't know

11 that I saw them there.

12 Q. So according to you, what is HOS?

13 A. Croatian armed forces.

14 Q. Let us go back in time to that period. Do you know the name of

15 Dobroslav Paraga?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. At that time did he have his own unit that was called HOS and were

18 they known by the uniforms they wore, dark black?

19 A. Dark black?

20 Q. And the acronym used to mean Croatian defence forces?

21 A. I don't know anything about the dark black uniforms, nor did I see

22 any HOS men in Vukovar in such uniforms.

23 Q. Did you hear about them being involved in the fighting in Vukovar,

24 any of them?

25 A. No.

Page 5593

1 Q. I believe you said you listened to the radio. I suppose it was

2 Radio Vukovar. Did Radio Vukovar have any programmes mentioning their

3 involvement?

4 A. I didn't say I listened to Radio Vukovar. I listened to Radio

5 Zagreb. When the sergeant was negotiating with Raseta, that's what I

6 heard on the radio. I don't remember about the HOS being reported as

7 being involved.

8 Q. Your role when you accepted to be a policeman at the police

9 station, what was it? What was your job? You said you went down to some

10 position facing the Danube river?

11 A. Yes. That place was called Sunce, the sun.

12 Q. I think you said in all that time you didn't fire a single round?

13 A. I did not.

14 Q. Also you seem to have said that even before while you were with

15 the JNA you didn't fire a single round, neither you nor any of your

16 comrades, those four who had left?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. So it follows from that that you didn't fire a single bullet on

19 other side?

20 A. When I was a JNA soldier I fired in the air, perhaps. But

21 certainly not when I was with the police. I didn't even see anyone.

22 Q. The rest of your colleagues, including those who were captured,

23 did they have a combat disposition, or was perhaps some of them not

24 assigned to anything?

25 A. I think that I said that Lorenc Dohanaj, myself and Zlatko

Page 5594

1 Zlogledja joined the police administration and became policemen. As for

2 the rest, none of them joined.

3 Q. Where did they sleep, eat, live? With you or elsewhere?

4 A. No, they remained in the basement of the police administration

5 building until the police station burnt down. Srecko Ravlija lost his

6 leg; he was in the hospital. Sirkic Hamdija [phoen] was in the hospital,

7 Kuscevic, Petar was with them at the hospital as well. Rasid Adzibegovic,

8 I don't know where he left. I'm just telling you about myself, Zlatko and

9 Lorenc.

10 Q. Thank you. When you yourself realised, when it became clear that

11 Vukovar would fall, you said that you decided to go to the hospital,

12 believing it to be the safest place?

13 A. Yes. We wanted to find shelter there at the hospital.

14 Q. Did you go and report to somebody at the hospital? Did you ask to

15 be put on the patient list at the hospital or perhaps some other list?

16 A. I came to the hospital because Lorenc Dohanaj stepped on a mine

17 and it blew off his heel. We brought him to the hospital and then

18 remained there. We didn't want to go anywhere else. I didn't report to

19 anyone. I wasn't put on any list, either as a patient or hospital

20 personnel.

21 Q. As you have told us, prior to that you and the rest laid down your

22 weapons. You entered the hospital unarmed and did not have a uniform?

23 A. I only had a uniform for about 20 days or a month. I can't say

24 with certainty. At the hospital I was in civilian clothes and without

25 weapons. I discarded weapons at the Vukovar cemetery.

Page 5595

1 Q. Could this mean that you wanted to pass yourself off as a civilian

2 and conceal that you had been a member of the JNA and that you wanted to

3 leave Vukovar in this way?

4 A. At that time I had no idea what was going to happen to me. I had

5 no wish to pass myself off as anything, as somebody who fled from the JNA

6 or did not flee from the JNA. We sought shelter at the hospital.

7 Q. Just to clarify something for the sake of the transcript: You

8 believed that if you went to the hospital that would save you, that was

9 safer than anything else?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Just another question about the hospital. I'm sure that my

12 friends will be putting you questions about the hospital too. You said

13 that when you left the hospital they searched you and they took your watch

14 away and that you believed that other people were deprived of their money,

15 valuables and so on?

16 A. It's not that I believed that, I saw that.

17 Q. If I were to tell you that many witnesses testified here who had

18 been searched, just like you were, and that all of them said that during

19 the search they were looking for weapons and that nothing was confiscated

20 from that?

21 A. That's ridiculous. I don't know who said that.

22 Q. Do you believe that these people didn't say the truth?

23 A. That's ridiculous. Nobody could have entered the hospital with

24 weapons.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

Page 5596

1 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, that second question, I think -- I think

2 we agreed the questions would be put to their substance of the allegation,

3 and I think in the first question it was put that other witnesses. But as

4 far as this witness deciding whether he -- whether the other witnesses are

5 telling the truth or not, I don't think that's really a position for this

6 witness to be put in.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Domazet, we have discussed this before. That's

8 one step too far.

9 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes. I will not be putting evidence

10 of these witnesses to this witness, Your Honour. I just wanted to hear

11 his opinion and he stated that he affirmed his previous statement, so I

12 will now turn to another topic. I thought that his answer would be

13 different.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you about how it was.

15 Q. Yes, that's what everybody says when they come to testify, but

16 it's up to us to verify this.

17 After this you spoke about being on buses within the barracks.

18 You described a large group which acted like a mob out of control;

19 hitting, insulting, yelling and so on?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You also mentioned an officer who got on the bus and read

22 out some names and then that some people got off the bus and that while

23 they were on their way to the barracks they were beaten. You explained

24 this in detail.

25 My question is: Did you see where these people went? Where did

Page 5597

1 they go?

2 A. What do you mean, "where did they go"? From the bus.

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. They were in the yard.

5 Q. And then?

6 A. I didn't see where they went after they left the yard. I just saw

7 them going in the direction of some trucks. There were military trucks

8 parked in the yard. Now whether they boarded them on the trucks and took

9 them somewhere, I don't know. I just know that they were beaten.

10 Q. Did you see or were you able to see these people departing in a

11 bus?

12 A. I said to you that I didn't know whether they got on a bus or on a

13 truck. I saw that they were beaten. Now what they did with them

14 afterwards, I don't know.

15 Q. When asked by my learned friend about the identity of these

16 persons who acted like a mob out of control, acting savagely around the

17 bus, you said that a lot of them were in uniforms.

18 My question is: Were there any people there in civilian clothes,

19 and perhaps even some women?

20 A. I don't know where these people were from, whether they were from

21 Vukovar or from Serbia. I have no idea where they had come from. I just

22 saw them within the compound of the barracks. I don't know whether there

23 were any women there. There were some women in front of barracks, but I

24 didn't really see what you're asking me about.

25 Q. In most of your answers you said that these people wore different

Page 5598

1 kinds of uniforms and that it was difficult for you to specify the number;

2 how many JNA soldiers, how many others and so on. You said it was

3 difficult for you to specify that.

4 My question is this: In addition to a driver, there was a JNA

5 soldier on each bus. I suppose I assumed that they were one of those

6 young soldiers like yourself?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Within that mob did you see such soldiers, these young soldiers,

9 conscripts, serving their military service, or there were none such in

10 that mob?

11 A. No. They didn't threaten us when they stood around the bus, but

12 I'm sure that there were some JNA soldiers around the compound and also

13 there was one JNA soldier on each bus.

14 Q. Yes, on each bus and in the barracks. The buses that took you to

15 Ovcara and, in fact, en route you learned that you were going to Ovcara

16 and you had never been there before. You described how you got there and

17 what happened there.

18 My question is: What happened with these buses once the people

19 disembarked? Did the buses immediately turn and head back or did they

20 remain there at Ovcara?

21 A. I apologise, but I really don't understand your question.

22 Q. Five, six or seven buses arrived in a convoy at Ovcara?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The buses were most likely parked in front of the hangar, one

25 behind each other?

Page 5599

1 A. Yes, and then people got off. First one bus was emptied and then

2 others.

3 Q. What happened to the buses afterwards?

4 A. They left.

5 Q. They left where?

6 A. Somewhere. Most likely they departed and left somewhere else.

7 Q. Well, that was my question. Did you see, did you know where these

8 buses went after people got off?

9 A. They went somewhere.

10 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you about where they went, because I realise

11 that you can't possibly know that. I'm just asking you whether after

12 people disembarked, the buses left?

13 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, just a minor objection there. I think

14 he's answered it. He said what happened to the buses afterwards and then

15 he said they left. It just might be confusing to the witness, having the

16 question put again.

17 JUDGE PARKER: The evidence, Mr. Domazet, does appear clear.

18 Starting at 23, about line 20, on from there. So your last question

19 appears unnecessary.

20 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Mr. Vasic

21 says that that's what it says in the transcript. I didn't really follow

22 the transcript, because I had some problems, there's no transcript on my

23 screen.

24 I understood the witness to say that he didn't know where the

25 buses went to, but that wasn't my question. However, I'll accept this

Page 5600

1 answer and move on to something else.

2 I apologise, Your Honour, we were trying to solve the problem with

3 the transcript, but that's all right. I'll continue with my

4 cross-examination.

5 Q. Mr. Dodaj, in examination-in-chief you said yesterday how you saw

6 a piece of equipment, some machinery. You said that it was a yellow

7 bulldozer with rubber wheels?

8 A. I said it was an excavator.

9 Q. Yes, you said it was an excavator. Do you remember testifying

10 about this at the trial in Belgrade?

11 A. Well, most likely, yes. They put questions to me about that.

12 Q. Do you remember that you spoke of this or not? If yes, then I

13 will continue with my question.

14 A. If they asked me, I most likely provided an answer.

15 Q. I assume that you don't have the transcript from the Belgrade

16 trial in front of you. I would like to ask the usher to assist me and

17 give you the transcript with the relevant page, and then I would like you

18 to read it out, to see whether you remember stating this in Belgrade. The

19 transcript is here, and then right below is the statement you gave. You

20 may want to keep both of them. Would you please turn to page 54 of the

21 transcript? No, I apologise, page 40.

22 If you have found the page, towards the middle of the page, I

23 think that your version is marked with number 1 where it says something

24 about when they closed the hangar door. Shall I read it out and then you

25 can confirm whether that is in your statement?

Page 5601

1 Does it say so: "Once they closed the hangar door, in front of

2 the hangar -- in front of the hangar there was an excavator, a yellow one,

3 with rubber wheels. Not the one digging, but the one pushing, which has a

4 fork in front of it."

5 This is what you stated there. Did you state this or did you

6 state what you said here?

7 A. It had a kind of a basket in order to carry what was being dug

8 out.

9 Q. All right. And then after this president of the chamber asked

10 you: "Well, does it have a plow in front of it or what?"

11 I'm going to wait a bit for the transcript. And then you go to

12 explain, I'm reading verbatim, and you can confirm whether I read it out

13 correctly. "Next to that hangar was an excavator, a parked excavator. It

14 was yellow. It had wheels, rubber wheels. It didn't have caterpillar.

15 It had rubber wheels and a basket in front of it. It wasn't the one meant

16 for digging."

17 Do you see, it was the one pushing the soil, so let us repeat.

18 You said that it had a basket, but not the one meant for digging, rather

19 one for pushing?

20 A. Well, that's what I meant. The front basket, the front shovel

21 cannot dig, it can only push. And this is the basket shovel we were

22 discussing.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Smith.

24 MR. SMITH: I would just ask that the witness be given an

25 opportunity to complete his answer before the question, the next question

Page 5602

1 starts. I don't think it finished when Mr. Domazet had started to ask the

2 next question. He didn't get an opportunity to explain.

3 JUDGE PARKER: He'd had a fair go at it, Mr. Smith. I wasn't

4 conscious of it being an unwarranted interruption, but I'm sure

5 Mr. Domazet will continue to be careful to allow the witness to finish,

6 just as the witness will allow Mr. Domazet to finish.

7 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Go ahead, please explain.

9 A. In Belgrade we had a discussion with the president of the trial

10 chamber about the front basket. It's pushing earth, not digging. It fits

11 two cubic metres of gravel or earth or soil or whatever. I tried to

12 explain that yesterday. That's what we had a discussion about.

13 Q. What I read in the first statement and after the additional

14 question of the presiding judge, is it exactly as on the record?

15 A. I cannot agree that this excavator doesn't dig at all. But the

16 discussion was about this front basket or whatever you call it.

17 Q. I only asked you if what is on the record is correct, your two

18 answers in response to questions from the trial chamber?

19 A. You can interpret this any way you like. I was trying to tell you

20 what the discussion there was about. It was about the front implement

21 that looks like a basket.

22 Q. And I'm asking you about what I read out, which you had seen, not

23 the explanation. We'll come later to the explanation.

24 A. As long as you talk about the front basket, then it is correct.

25 Q. I didn't ask you about the front basket individually. I asked you

Page 5603

1 about the entire two answers.

2 A. I didn't say that you didn't read them out correctly.

3 Q. Thank you. But you say that even then you testified it was an

4 excavator of the kind that digs?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But we see here an explanation that it is the kind of machine that

7 pushes earth, not digs. There were two discussions about this.

8 A. In Belgrade they did not ask me whether the machine digs. They

9 asked me about this front basket and what its purpose was.

10 Q. Witness, please look at the first part of the statement you gave.

11 Are there any questions, judge's questions about the excavator, or is it

12 your detailed story about how you left your uniform, how you got hold of

13 civilian clothes, how you changed, how you arrived at the hangar? So it

14 is a narrative, uninterrupted by any questions. And you come on your own

15 to the point where they closed the door of the hangars, and outside the

16 hangars there is a yellow excavator with rubber wheels. Not the one that

17 -- not the one with caterpillars, with rubber wheels not the -- and the

18 basket it had in front, not the one that digs but the one that pushes

19 earth. And only after that the judge asked you, it had some sort of

20 shovel underneath or in front. And then you explained again and gave this

21 answer. You said: "The parked excavator, the yellow one with rubber

22 wheels, has a basket in front. Not the one that digs, but the one that

23 pushes earth."

24 Nobody asked you about it, you said it yourself?

25 A. Well, you are reading a question from the presiding judge. He

Page 5604

1 interrupted me because I had not had time to explain what -- whether there

2 was a basket or a shovel in the back as well. And then we started this

3 discussion about the front shovel or basket.

4 Q. He did not interrupt you. It's not a deposition that is dictated.

5 It's an audio recording that records every word during the trial. If he

6 had really interrupted you, his question would have come before your first

7 explanation. In your second -- after your second explanation, there were

8 no further questions about it. It is you who continued the story on your

9 own, saying that one soldier jump-started the machine and left somewhere.

10 And nobody asked you anything more until the point when they asked you if

11 there had been any other machines around and you said yes, but it wasn't a

12 tractor, it was an excavator. Look at page 46.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Domazet, we have spent a lot of time on this,

14 and at the moment I haven't grasped why. The witness, both in the earlier

15 proceedings and here, seems to have been explaining that this was a piece

16 of machinery with two operative instruments; one on the front and one on

17 the back. The one on the back was a digger, and the one on the front, in

18 his language, was a pusher. Whether you call it a basket, a blade or

19 what. What is the issue that keeps you so long about this machine? The

20 only thing he said about it, apart from its presence, was that a soldier

21 jumped on, started it, and then left it. Nothing else said about it.

22 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, from what has been read

23 from the transcript from Belgrade this explanation that he is giving now

24 does not exist that there was another instrument in the back, that it was

25 actually a digger, and that's why I wanted him to hear the quotation.

Page 5605

1 However, I'm not going to dwell on this subject anymore, I'm moving on.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

3 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Concerning the consistency of your testimony, I would like to

5 assess that. Yesterday in response to my various questions you quoted

6 different numbers of tanks, I quoted you as saying there were eight, and

7 then you said that's not true, and that you had never stated such a thing.

8 You answered yesterday, it's page 87, you said there had never

9 been eight and that you may have mentioned six or seven. Now I would

10 kindly ask you to look at not this transcript but the statement you gave

11 to OTP investigators in 1996. Would you please turn to page 2, the

12 penultimate paragraph, and in English it is also towards the end of the

13 second page.

14 A. Yes, I see it.

15 Q. Does it say: "Our platoon had eight tanks and six to seven APCs."

16 A. Yes. "Our platoon," it says here. It was probably a company, not

17 a platoon.

18 Q. Do you remember the Dokmanovic case where you testified as well,

19 did you mention how many tanks there were in the possession of your unit?

20 A. It was probably discussed.

21 Q. If I told you that on page 611, line 22, you said your unit had

22 had around 20 tanks at the time, and I can give you that transcript, but

23 it's in English, and I would like to read it for the benefit of the

24 interpreters. My friends from the Prosecution have the same transcript.

25 And I would like to hear your answer, your explanation as to how it was

Page 5606

1 possible that you mentioned 20 then, whereas yesterday you challenged that

2 you had even mentioned eight. Not in Sremska Mitrovica. I'm speaking

3 about the Dokmanovic trial here in the ICTY where you appeared as a

4 witness. On page 611, 21st line, the question was: "Tanks?

5 "Answer: Tanks. That unit of mine at that point had about 20

6 tanks."

7 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, perhaps I'm just wondering whether it

8 could be put to the witness at which point of time that the unit had 20

9 tanks, whether it was at the point when they were at their position

10 outside of Vukovar or whether it was when they were back at the barracks.

11 It's a little bit unclear as to where that figure arises.

12 JUDGE PARKER: You've heard that, Mr. Domazet.

13 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I've heard that.

14 I will come back to that same page of the transcript and I will read the

15 passage before to indicate that it was the same event. So 611, let's

16 start from line 4.

17 Q. You say: [In English] "On the 1st September, the position between

18 Luzac and Bogdanovci, that is on the road between Vinkovci and Vukovar so

19 we had cut that road and we dug in there with our tanks and transporters

20 and then we were shooting at the city with everything we had available."

21 [Interpretation] Next question: "What types of weaponry was the

22 JNA using?"

23 [In English] "Well, this unit of mine uses tanks, 100-millimetre

24 tanks, and 20-millimetre transporters and PKT automatic rifles and small

25 arms and mortars, 60 and 80 millimetres."

Page 5607

1 [Interpretation] Then comes a question related to aircraft. Your

2 response is not relevant, I believe. And after that comes this line 22

3 concerning tanks. And you answer: "That unit of mine at that point had

4 about 20 tanks."

5 So you're obviously talking about the time when you were dug in

6 your positions after you had cut off the road?

7 A. I think that time concerns the period I spent in Petrovac Na

8 Mlavi. And in relation to the other period, I never stated there had been

9 20 tanks.

10 Q. Now, I'm completely at a loss. I have just read a moment ago on

11 this page, and I don't want to go back much further, Petrovac Na Mlavi is

12 not mentioned anywhere, we have a specific date, the 1st of September,

13 1991, the Bogdanovci-Vinkovci road, and you spoke about what kinds of

14 weapons were shooting at the town, then you said on the 14th of September

15 it was bombed by four or five planes. To the question of whether you had

16 seen heavy artillery, you said you had seen canons and then you answered

17 about tanks?

18 A. Can you just tell me what the question was?

19 Q. Mr. Dodaj, I think I read it out twice. I'm afraid it's quite

20 clear that it relates to this event. The question was: "Tanks?

21 "Answer: At that point that unit of mine had about 20 tanks."

22 If you have no answer, I will not insist, but it's on this record.

23 A. I must have meant APCs and tanks in total, but it couldn't have

24 been 20 tanks.

25 Q. I really don't believe there had been 20 tanks, but I'm telling

Page 5608

1 what you answered.

2 A. At Petrovac Na Mlavi there were indeed 20 tanks. Maybe that's a

3 mistake after all.

4 Q. I should like to move on now to another subject. You said that

5 after being taken to Belgrade, to Topcider, to the military investigations

6 prison where you were beaten and mistreated you explained that in detail

7 yesterday, I don't want to go on about it, but from the moment you were

8 admitted into the military investigations prison were you beaten there and

9 mistreated?

10 A. Sometimes by reservists who would come in, but as for active duty

11 troops, a bit, but not like in Topcider.

12 Q. Where was that military investigations prison?

13 A. Where the trial is taking place these days for those crimes. In

14 Belgrade.

15 Q. As far as I know, the trial for those crimes is in the former

16 courthouse.

17 A. That's where the prison was.

18 Q. So that's where the military investigations prison was. Was it

19 possible for anyone other than officials, your counsel or prosecutors or

20 whoever, was it possible for anyone to enter that building and mistreat

21 you?

22 A. Yes. The reservists from Topcider who beat me was the one

23 dispensing food at the military investigations prison.

24 Q. Even if we admit that that is so, did you receive food there at

25 the military investigations prison, that's why you were mistreated?

Page 5609

1 A. It's all in one building, it's all within one building, the whole

2 military investigations prison.

3 Q. But it's also the military courthouse?

4 A. Yes. In 2004 when I was in Belgrade in that cell in which I had

5 spent four months earlier, seven months at an earlier time, I now sat as a

6 gentleman.

7 Q. I know the building you are describing, but it is not probable

8 what you're saying; namely, that reservists bringing food would have

9 mistreated you and beaten you -- and beat you.

10 A. Yes, those were reservists, mobilised by the JNA. The reserve

11 forces.

12 Q. You said that they brought food from Topcider to the prison?

13 A. No, no. They were transferred to guard us. The food was cooked

14 for us in prison. I don't know whether they actually cooked it in

15 Topcider and then transported it to prison, but we got food in prison and

16 they were the ones distributing food to us.

17 Q. All right. So you stand by your previous claim that even at the

18 military prison you were mistreated but not by official authorities. And

19 I suppose by that you're referring to investigative judge?

20 A. No, the investigative judge never mistreated me. His name was

21 Petar Medic.

22 Q. During this trial you had an attorney defending you?

23 A. Yes, a court-appointed attorney, a lady.

24 Q. Are you referring now to the investigation or trial?

25 A. Trial. But also during investigation we were offered to have

Page 5610

1 defence counsel. A lady came, introduced herself. She said, I'm lawyer

2 called such and such, court-appointed. Zlatko Zlogledja had lawyers hired

3 by his parents. And also the Croatian side paid for some lawyers to

4 defend us.

5 Q. All right. So Zlogledja had a lawyer of his own choice hired by

6 his family, and you had a court-appointed one?

7 A. Yes. His mother came to the trial in Belgrade.

8 Q. Do you know whether he was mistreated in a similar way just like

9 you, if you were together in Topcider at investigative prison?

10 A. Yes, he was mistreated to Topcider. I had to carry him to the

11 toilet, whereas for the military investigative prison we were not there

12 together. He was in one cell and I was in another cell. Petar Kuscevic

13 and Samir were sent back to their units.

14 Q. Thank you. You were close with him. Did he later speak to you

15 about this?

16 A. He said that he wasn't mistreated as badly as back in Topcider.

17 Q. You or him, did you report this to your lawyers and was this ever

18 raised in the courtroom or during investigation?

19 A. No. That would not have been of any assistance to us or to them.

20 Q. My question is: Did you raise it, did you tell this to your

21 lawyers?

22 A. No. However, they could see bruises on me.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have some five to 10

25 minutes more, but I think that this is our regular time for break. I will

Page 5611

1 conclude shortly after we resume. I have maybe 10 questions at the most.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Domazet. We will commence again at

3 10 minutes to 11.00. And we will adjourn now.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Domazet.

7 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dodaj, just before the break we described

9 what was taking place in the proceedings against you and Zlatko Zlogledja

10 before the military court in Belgrade.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You said that you had a court-appointed lawyer. Based on the

13 judgement I have, it seems that her name was Zorica Petronijevic-Gajic; is

14 that right?

15 A. I think so.

16 Q. And based on the judgement it seems that Mr. Zlogledja was

17 represented by two lawyers, Barovic and Tomic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You spoke about this in detail. You were convicted for three

20 crimes, sentenced to five years, and sent to serve your sentence in

21 Valjevo.

22 My only question concerning that is this: Do you know that the

23 institution in Valjevo, the correctional centre there in the former

24 Yugoslavia, was the one for juvenile offenders and young adults up to the

25 age of 21 and that this is the institution where you were sent to serve

Page 5612

1 your sentence?

2 A. Yes, it was the correctional and penal facility in Valjevo. And

3 before Valjevo I was in the central prison in Serbia.

4 Q. Do you remember that in 1998 when you testified here in the

5 Dokmanovic case you stated that you were from Kosovo and that Kosovo was

6 under Serbian occupation. This is what you said back in 1998. Do you

7 remember this or shall I read it out to you?

8 A. Most likely I said this. At the time I was a protected witness.

9 Yes, I stated that.

10 Q. No need to put this to you?

11 A. No need.

12 Q. So you stated this on that occasion, that you were from Kosovo and

13 that Kosovo was under Serbian occupation. Thank you.

14 Am I right in saying that due to everything you experienced in

15 1991, 1992 and even 1993 while serving your sentence you personally felt

16 that a great harm had been inflicted on you, both physical and mental, and

17 that you blamed the then JNA for that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it possible that due to that your testimony, both here before

20 this Court and some other instances where you gave evidence in a way blame

21 the JNA and its members and that this is especially obvious in instances

22 where you say that you were given orders to fire at Vukovar without any

23 specific targets and then when you say that those who defended Vukovar had

24 nothing but small arms. You also speak of the looting taking place in

25 front of the hospital and now this piece of machinery, the backhoe loader

Page 5613

1 that you described for the first time here. Can this be explained by your

2 attitude towards the JNA and Serbia in general, especially what you said

3 about the Serbian occupation of Kosovo?

4 A. No, sir. I'm describing what I saw and what I lived through.

5 That was done by that army.

6 Q. Am I right in saying that you described this erroneously when you

7 said that some ordinary soldier back on the 21st of November at 6.00 in

8 the morning came with the news to you saying that Chetniks at Ovcara had

9 killed 600 Ustashas?

10 A. Yes, the soldier was from Cacak. And this is what he said, "Do

11 you know what's new? Our Chetniks killed 600 Ustashas." About 600

12 Ustashas.

13 Q. Would you agree with me that this is -- this was a very important

14 matter, both back then and later, if it were indeed true?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you tell me what you stated yesterday, did you say this back

17 in 1996 when you were interviewed by The Hague investigators?

18 A. Most likely I did.

19 Q. Please take a look at the statement that's before you. Take a

20 look and tell me whether it is mentioned at all. It's not a long

21 statement.

22 A. Listen, in 1996 or in 1998 I came to this Court and it's natural

23 that I didn't remember everything that had happened. You know, memories

24 come back to you. This is an international court, after all. And when I

25 came for the first time I was quite anxious, excited. Today I feel more

Page 5614

1 comfortable. Maybe I said it and they didn't record it.

2 Q. Do you think it's possible that you stated this, but that this

3 matter, which you yourself described as unimportant, was not recorded by

4 the investigators who also recorded some less important things?

5 A. Well, I can't say this with certainty.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

7 MR. SMITH: Perhaps it's not so much an objection but a

8 correction. I have the statement on the 24th of April, 1996 that the

9 witness gave to the investigators, and just for my friends' notice, in the

10 English version, on page 5 of 7, there is a statement to that effect. It

11 may be a matter for re-examination, but I thought it may be important to

12 mention that now.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Smith. Mr. Domazet will no doubt

14 notice that.

15 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

16 Q. My question: You went through your statement, so tell me now, is

17 it recorded there that on the 21st in the morning a soldier from Cacak

18 came to you bringing you the news about Chetniks killing 600 Ustashas the

19 previous day?

20 A. Yes. You can find it here. It says here "major," and then I said

21 to the investigators that this was no major, but rather an ordinary

22 soldier. Came -- his name was not known to me, and he said that about 600

23 Ustashas had been killed at Ovcara.

24 Q. So he's a major now?

25 A. No, sir. I never said he was a major. They recorded this

Page 5615

1 erroneously. This was an ordinary soldier who guarded us in Negoslavci in

2 the basement of a Serb house there.

3 Q. When you gave your first statement prior to this in 1994 in

4 Bjelovar, did you ever mention this?

5 A. If I were to check that statement, I would see. And as for this

6 one, I tell you with full certainty that this was not a major, but rather

7 a private of the JNA.

8 Q. You gave your first statement in 1994 and at the time your memory

9 was quite fresh.

10 I would like to ask the usher to give you this statement.

11 A. I don't think it's here.

12 Q. Thank you. Can we agree that this cannot be found in your

13 statement?

14 A. No, it's not in these papers.

15 Q. All right. I would like to ask the usher to bring it back to me.

16 We will not be needing it any longer.

17 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have concluded with

18 my cross-examination, and I think I was true to my word, even though I'm

19 not a Montenegrin.

20 JUDGE PARKER: But you are neither a mathematician. You promised

21 10 questions, there were only 17.

22 Mr. Borovic.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the usher please

24 give this to the witness. These are statements that have been mentioned

25 so far and he will need to refer to them when I put some questions to him.

Page 5616

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Borovic:

2 Q. Mr. Dodaj, good morning. My name is Borivoje Borovic. I am

3 Defence counsel for Miroslav Radic.

4 When you went to the front you were told that the JNA had nothing

5 against the Croatian people; is that right? You were also told that you

6 were going to fight Ustashas, Kurds, Albanians and so on?

7 A. Yes, mercenaries.

8 Q. Please don't find my question offensive, but you are an Albanian?

9 A. Yes, and I'm not ashamed of that.

10 Q. What about your friends? Were any of them Albanians?

11 A. Yes, Lorenc Dohanaj.

12 Q. Where was he from?

13 A. I don't know what his birth place was, but in Vukovar he was from

14 Marinci.

15 Q. Thank you. You also stated that you fired at Vukovar without any

16 apparent reason; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would you now please take the statement you gave to the OTP, the

19 second one? Yes, this one, the second one. Find page 3, please,

20 paragraph 2. I will read out what it says there, and you can confirm

21 whether I've read it out correctly. It says: "We received no particular

22 instructions. We were just told to fire at the town indiscriminately in

23 the direction from which we see any fire being launched."

24 Is that what it says there?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5617

1 Q. Can we then agree that your order was this: That you would open

2 fire indiscriminately every time you see that somebody's firing in your

3 direction from Vukovar. That's what it says here.

4 A. Yes, it could be said so.

5 Q. All right. Thank you. Did you ever fire from a tank?

6 A. No, I didn't. I was not a member of a tank crew.

7 Q. All right. Did you ever get into a tank?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 Q. The area that you described to us in detail, the area where you

10 were before coming to Vukovar where you spent 24 days, were you able to

11 see from there the location of the hospital in Vukovar?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were you able to see the police station building?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you able to see Count Eltz's palace and did you know about

16 it?

17 A. Yes, and I saw it. I saw that it was destroyed.

18 Q. Just a minute. You will have to wait until I finish my question.

19 So from the positions you were occupying during those four days

20 you were not able to see that palace?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Can you then explain why you said to OTP investigators that a

23 special target that you had seen where the water-tower and the palace you

24 have just mentioned, if you hadn't seen that palace at all looking from

25 those positions?

Page 5618

1 A. I didn't see the palace, but the water-tower I could see very well

2 from our position.

3 Q. We've heard that, you don't need to repeat.

4 A. We fired at it non-stop.

5 Q. So you will agree with me that that part of your statement is

6 incorrect, that you saw the palace that was being targeted?

7 A. I didn't say that.

8 Q. It's written in the statement. So in the statement you gave to

9 the OTP you said that particular targets were the palace and the

10 water-tower.

11 Here it is. Page 3. It's the fifth paragraph. Have you found

12 it? Page 3, paragraph 5 reads: "Resistance in Vukovar was obviously very

13 weak," and so on. "I saw the town was completely destroyed together with

14 the palace and the water-tower that seemed to have been a special target

15 or particularly targeted."

16 A. Yes. I saw that.

17 Q. Also in a statement that you gave to the crime investigation

18 police in Bjelovar in 1994 on page 3, paragraph 3, English version page 3,

19 paragraph 1, you said on the way to Dubrava you broke down all barricades

20 and obstacles set up by the ZNG, the Home Guard Corps and the police.

21 A. We didn't destroy them, we removed them.

22 Q. But is it written there, "destroyed," "brought down"?

23 A. Yes, that's what it's written. Let me explain.

24 Q. Of course I will allow you to explain. I am insisting that you

25 describe what they looked like, those obstacles set up by the ZNG.

Page 5619

1 A. Oak logs laid across the road. Logs.

2 Q. What did the barricades put up by the MUP look like?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Well, it's written here?

5 A. That's what we were told. Officers of the JNA told us those

6 obstacles were put up by the ZNG, MUP and others.

7 Q. But you gave this statement in Croatia. Please don't interrupt

8 me. You gave this statement in Bjelovar, a town in Croatia, before

9 Croatian investigators, and there you said it was your assignment to bring

10 down or destroy barricades and obstacles put up by the Home Guards and

11 policemen?

12 A. I don't know about this word "destroy" or "bring down." We

13 removed them.

14 Q. How many of them did you bring down on your way to Vukovar?

15 A. More than one. Maybe less than four. Three. Between one and

16 three barricades. I cannot tell you the exact number. We -- you couldn't

17 actually see how many of them there were. They were just removed to the

18 side.

19 Q. Later when you were working at the MUP in Vukovar, did you receive

20 information as to the locations of the barricades they put up across town?

21 A. No.

22 Q. When you were at this position on the -- for 24 days was any of

23 your tanks destroyed?

24 A. I don't think so.

25 Q. Are you sure?

Page 5620

1 A. I don't know exactly.

2 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that there was a tank of yours

3 that was destroyed in that period?

4 A. I cannot be certain. I know that one captain was wounded and

5 another soldier was wounded, two bullets in his knee. I know that. But I

6 don't know about tanks or APCs. Maybe later after I left.

7 Q. Thank you. You were in Vukovar, you said, for two months?

8 A. A bit less.

9 Q. Do you have information as to how many JNA tanks had been

10 destroyed in that time since you were in the MUP of Croatia?

11 A. No.

12 Q. If I tell you that there are witnesses who were part of Croatian

13 armed forces and there is written documentation that I will not name from

14 which we see that over 300 JNA tanks were destroyed in that period, do you

15 have a comment? Do you allow the possibility that it's true?

16 A. I cannot talk about things I don't know. I don't know if a tank

17 was destroyed, whether there were more or less of them destroyed. But the

18 figure is not familiar, 300 tanks.

19 Q. Do you think less were destroyed?

20 A. I can't tell you anything. I can't tell you whether there were

21 more or less. I didn't even know that there were any tanks destroyed, or

22 the number.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, we have to clear up one matter concerning

24 prisoners of war and we'll be able to do that quickly if you look at your

25 statement from which I will read.

Page 5621

1 So you stated today that those three prisoners with that rifle

2 called Rumunjka were walking towards active duty troops, they were bitten

3 a lot by mosquitos, and they were later killed in the way you described?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now please take the statement you gave to the OTP, so not the one

6 that you're holding now, but another one. B/C/S version page 3,

7 paragraph 3, English version page 3, paragraph 4. I will read it out, and

8 you will just follow.

9 "On the 14th of May -- on the 14th of September, Seselj's men went

10 to the peripheral settlement of Luzac and we followed immediately after

11 them to clear the area after they put it under their control. When I

12 arrived, I saw that three civilians had surrendered to reservists - I

13 emphasise reservists - who had bound their feet and hands, left them in

14 the cornfield, and then left to inform the army they had captured them.

15 "The next day one lieutenant from Knin, whose name I don't know,

16 told us to go and fetch all the three of them, and when we arrived there

17 we saw that they were badly swollen from mosquito bites and starved, so we

18 took them to the staff in Negoslavci. Later I heard from the Croatian

19 police that all the three of them had been killed, one of them having been

20 crucified on a train carriage and shot at with a tank shell."

21 A. It's true this part that we went -- they came into the settlement

22 of Luzac.

23 Q. Wait a minute. Is it true that this is written in your statement?

24 A. Yes, but it's not quite like that.

25 Q. Does that mean that OTP investigators did not take your statement

Page 5622

1 accurately?

2 A. Maybe the interpreter did not interpret it correctly.

3 Q. I want to have a decent discussion with you, sir. This is a large

4 text mentioning all sorts of units. It says the next day you went to

5 fetch those prisoners captured by reservists. Are you denying now all

6 that is written in the statement? Are you denying, refuting this part?

7 A. I did not say this, sir.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. They must have misinterpreted it, the interpreters, I mean. I

10 said about those three civilians, that they had surrendered to the

11 Yugoslav army.

12 Q. I prefer to question you, if you don't mind.

13 Let's take another statement, because this one is incorrect. That

14 statement was, in fact, your testimony in the Ovcara case in Belgrade on

15 the 26th of October, 2004. B/C/S version page 37, English page 38,

16 line 45 onwards. So please find page 37 and try to follow.

17 In the OTP statement we have the date of 14th September. Now here

18 it says: "On the 17th of September, some civilians surrendered

19 themselves. They were walking towards us, active duty troops. Three of

20 them. They were dressed in civilian clothes. One of them had this

21 Kalashnikov rifle, Romanian, I think they called it. And they came to us.

22 The captain who was our commander asked them, 'Where are you heading?'

23 And they answered, 'We're running away from the town because almost the

24 entire town is on fire.' One could see a cloud of smoke, and they said,

25 'We're running away because we're afraid.' And so they took this rifle

Page 5623

1 away from them, they bound their hands, and tied them to a tree lest they

2 ran away from us. They were badly bitten by mosquitos overnight, so they

3 had stains on their faces. And they drove them away, put them in a

4 transporter, this combat vehicle is called a transporter, military

5 transporter, and they were driven away in the direction of Negoslavci so

6 that I have no idea, no clue, nor have I heard any more about those

7 civilians. They simply disappeared."

8 Is that the statement you gave in the Ovcara trial?

9 A. That's what --

10 Q. Will you please stop? Next question. This is the statement you

11 gave in 2004 in which it says you have no clue what happened to those

12 prisoners. Just a minute. You also said that this is your statement, and

13 you stand by it. All the rest -- I don't know what you want to say.

14 A. I want to tell you that while I was a JNA soldier I didn't know

15 what was going on with those civilians and what they did to them.

16 Q. You didn't know in 2004?

17 A. Didn't know what?

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll finish with this

19 question.

20 Q. In your statement given in 2004 not even then did you know what

21 happened to those civilians?

22 A. While I was a JNA soldier. At that time I didn't know. When I

23 came to the police, I explained about that group, described where they

24 were going. It may be that those were another three civilians, but they

25 told me that the three civilians were killed.

Page 5624

1 Q. Why didn't you say that before the Court where you testified under

2 oath to this very important fact? Instead you said very decisively in

3 2004: "I don't know, I have no clue, nor have I ever heard any more about

4 those people. They simply vanished."

5 Isn't that what you said? Were you not telling the truth?

6 A. I was telling the truth. Please don't tell me any different.

7 Q. Next question. This event, did it happen on the 14th of September

8 or the 17th?

9 A. I said between the 14th and the 16th, or the 14th and the 17th. I

10 don't see what these questions have to do with Ovcara and the massacre

11 that was perpetrated.

12 Q. Please do not try to find a way out. We'll discuss that later.

13 I'm asking you whether it was the 14th or the 17th, and your answer is?

14 A. Between the 14th or the 17th, whether it was the 15th or the 16th

15 or maybe even the 18th.

16 Q. When you were talking to the crime investigation police in

17 Bjelovar in 1994 [realtime transcript read in error "2004"], so the

18 police, you were asked on page 3, paragraph 4 --

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there's an error in

20 the transcript. It says Bjelovar 2004. We said 1994. Thank you for that

21 correction.

22 Q. You mentioned dates like the 14th of September and the 17th

23 September. At no point, speaking to the crime investigation police, did

24 you mention those captives, those prisoners; is that correct?

25 A. Let me see.

Page 5625

1 Q. Why?

2 A. I don't even know whether the police shared all this information

3 with you. I -- they questioned me for two days. I can't believe that all

4 I said in two days is recorded here. Maybe you didn't receive all the

5 material.

6 Q. Dear Mr. Dodaj, are you seeing now before you the statement you

7 gave to the crime investigation police in Bjelovar?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Is it true that the part of the captives is missing?

10 A. It's true.

11 Q. Did you give another statement to the crime investigation police

12 in Bjelovar that we don't know about?

13 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

14 Q. While you were a policeman in Vukovar, did you notice that there

15 were snipers at your positions?

16 A. No, I did not. At least not where I was.

17 Q. Were there any snipers on the water-tower?

18 A. That I don't know.

19 Q. So we come to Vukovar. You surrendered, spent three days in

20 detention; is that so?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. We won't go on about that. You also said you saw three JNA

23 soldiers taken prisoner. You spoke about that.

24 A. At the hospital. They were undergoing treatment.

25 Q. On your way from the JNA to the police in Vukovar, what was that

Page 5626

1 road and which populated areas did you go through? So it is a fortified

2 position of the JNA that you are starting from. Which path did you take?

3 A. I think it was close to this hunter's lodge, and we came up to a

4 civilian person. We asked him to go ahead and tell people not to shoot at

5 us, and so he went. He probably said that there were five soldiers behind

6 him who want to surrender. We surrendered to them.

7 Q. Just a minute. You said five soldiers.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Please describe the road you crossed from the hunter's

10 lodge to the police station.

11 A. I told you. As we were lined up that was our position and so we

12 went in the middle of the day. I think it was noon or 2.00 p.m. We were

13 in front of the soldiers. We went to those houses. Nobody was in those

14 houses, they were empty.

15 Q. We heard that.

16 A. Well, I don't know what the place is called where I crossed. I

17 don't know where I got there. I mean, I know those people. I know that

18 they were civilians who were living there.

19 Q. I'm not asking you about the civilians who were living in that

20 house. I'm asking you about the path you took to the MUP and you say you

21 don't know. Thank you. So let's move on.

22 Could we please --

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what the witness

24 said. They were overlapping.

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at Exhibit 156 on the

Page 5627

1 screen? We don't have that on the screen. All right. Can we zoom in to

2 the centre a little bit, please? Could we zoom in a little more, please?

3 I would like to ask you to zoom in the map a little more towards the

4 middle. Could we zoom in a little more, please? This is too much;

5 perhaps we can pull back a notch. Thank you. This is good.

6 Q. Question for the witness: Can you indicate here where the MUP

7 was?

8 A. Well, I could, approximately.

9 Q. All right. Very well. Could you mark the place where you think

10 the MUP was situated with a cross?

11 A. I think that it was around here somewhere.

12 Q. Can you place a number 1 to the right of the cross and put a

13 circle around it?

14 A. [Marks].

15 Q. Just place a number 1 next to it because you've already caused a

16 confusion. Not there.

17 A. Could we erase this, perhaps? Perhaps we could erase it and I

18 could start again.

19 Q. Well, just put a number 1 outside of the circle. Place a cross.

20 A. [Marks].

21 Q. All right. To the right of the cross, can you write down number 1

22 and then you can circle the whole thing now.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. All right. Can you please indicate where your positions were, the

25 Sunce that you mentioned in response to my colleague's question?

Page 5628

1 A. I think that it was somewhere around here.

2 Q. Cross, place a cross, and then one centimetre to the right you can

3 put a number 2 there and circle it.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Thank you. Can you put a circle around the number 2, just the

6 number 2. It's very simple. Can you indicate where the positions were of

7 Hrkic and Ravlija. You talked about that?

8 A. Sir, I didn't say that. You obviously didn't listen to what I

9 said. Hrkic, Samir and Srecko, Ravlija were at the police cellar.

10 Q. All right, all right. Hrkic, Samir was not in any position.

11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] In order to save this on the screen,

12 perhaps it can be introduced into evidence.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number 237, Your Honours.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Now I would like the witness to find the statement it gave to the

17 police in Bjelovar in the -- dated the 1st of February, 1994. B/C/S

18 page 2, paragraph 7; English version page 3, paragraph number 5.

19 I'm going to read and you can follow it. Have you found it?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. I'm reading your statement which you found [as interpreted] in

22 Bjelovar. "After being checked, I joined the MUP units." This is page 3,

23 last paragraph.

24 A. I really cannot find this.

25 Q. Did you find a statement that you gave to the criminal police in

Page 5629

1 Bjelovar?

2 A. Yes, I have it.

3 Q. Find page 3. So the last paragraph, it states very nicely at the

4 bottom, number 3, and it begins, "After the check." Do you have that?

5 A. "After the check"...

6 Q. You're looking at page 2. Please look at page 3. Have you found

7 it? The last paragraph.

8 A. Yes, yes, here it is. I'm sorry.

9 Q. Are we looking at page 3, the last paragraph?

10 A. After the vetting, yes.

11 Q. Thank you. I'm reading now. "After the vetting, I -- he joined

12 the MUP units in Vukovar, and was deployed on positions or rather the

13 region called Sunce towards the Danube. Zlogledja, Zlatko and Dohanaj,

14 Lorenc were deployed on positions in the direction of Luzac. Hrkic and

15 Ravlija were not deployed, and they were mostly moving around the MUP

16 building."

17 Is that what it says?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. These first two mentioned, Zlogledja and Dohanaj, can

20 you tell us where are these positions towards Luzac that they took up as

21 members of the MUP? Can you indicate this on the map and can you mark it?

22 Take the marker.

23 A. I don't know their exact position.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 Your Honour, before the witness indicates the position, these

Page 5630

1 other two were not mentioned, Hrkic, Samir and Ravlija, Srecko who were

2 said to be moving around, mostly around the MUP building.

3 A. Yes, they crossed over to the police.

4 Q. So this is what it states here, but it was not recorded in the

5 transcript. Thank you.

6 Can you indicate the positions for which you yourself said were

7 the positions where they were deployed, positions towards Luzac?

8 A. Toward Luzac.

9 Q. Where is that?

10 A. Luzac is here. I will circle it for you.

11 Q. Where were the positions where they were?

12 A. I don't know whether they were at Luzac, in Luzac, in front Luzac,

13 behind Luzac, I don't know. I know that they were somewhere in the area

14 of Luzac.

15 Q. Thank you. When was this, what was the month, which period was

16 it?

17 A. It was sometime in October 1991.

18 Q. October?

19 A. Yes. I don't know the exact date.

20 Q. Thank you. When did you come to your positions?

21 A. Which positions?

22 Q. This one, the Sunce position?

23 A. At about that same time in October.

24 Q. Early October?

25 A. No, not early October. Perhaps mid-October. I think it was

Page 5631

1 October. I know it was October.

2 Q. Thank you. And how long were you at that position?

3 A. We were there until we received an order to withdraw and that the

4 town had fallen.

5 Q. Thank you. How many of you were there at that position?

6 A. About eight, ten, I don't know. You could say that there were

7 about eight of us.

8 Q. Thank you. You were all armed?

9 A. Yes, we all had automatic rifles.

10 Q. Thank you. You all had police uniforms?

11 A. Yes, we had grey police uniforms.

12 Q. And you were in these uniforms right until the fall?

13 A. No, not until the fall. I wasn't in uniform until the fall.

14 Q. Just one moment. You said that you were at the positions until

15 the end. Where you constantly in uniform, in the MUP uniform? Were you

16 in the MUP uniform constantly while you were at the position?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were the other MUP members also in uniforms, or as members of the

19 Croatian MUP, were you wearing civilian clothes?

20 A. There were people who were in uniform right until the end. There

21 were people who were in civilian clothes later.

22 Q. When later?

23 A. Well, please don't ask me to give you the dates. I told you that

24 I joined the MUP ranks voluntarily. Nobody forced me to do that. I had

25 weapons -- or I had a weapon until I went to the hospital. On entering

Page 5632

1 the hospital I threw away my weapon.

2 Q. And the uniform?

3 A. No, not the uniform. I told you I threw away my uniform after 20

4 days and after that I was in civilian clothes.

5 Q. Can you explain, and you said earlier that members of the MUP were

6 regular Croatian police?

7 A. Yes, they were.

8 Q. How could they be members of the regular units as you described

9 them and be wearing different clothing and uniforms, civilian clothes?

10 You really must explain this to us.

11 A. Sir, the Croatian MUP and the ZNG had nobody to issue them

12 uniforms and weapons, for example, as the Chetniks did. The army issued

13 them with weapons and uniforms as well as the reservists. They had nobody

14 to get uniforms from. There was civilians wearing civilian clothes who

15 were defending the town. You cannot spend a month wearing the same

16 clothes.

17 Q. Thank you. When was the first time that you received the MUP

18 uniform and was it new?

19 A. It wasn't packed. It was a clean uniform.

20 Q. I'm asking, was it new?

21 A. Was does it mean, was it new?

22 Q. Well, you should know that.

23 A. Well, you could say that, it was new, yes. You could say that.

24 Q. Why are you evading an answer?

25 A. Well, I'm not evading. It was not packed in a bag. I just

Page 5633

1 received it like this, and it said "police" on it milicija."

2 Q. What was the kind of cap that you had?

3 A. We had a grey beret. That was the working uniform of the MUP at

4 the time.

5 Q. And what was the insignia on the uniforms?

6 A. It was the Croatian coat of arms.

7 Q. And the others, did they receive new police uniforms when they

8 arrived?

9 A. The people who arrived, Lorenc and Zlogledja, Zlatko, they

10 received uniforms.

11 Q. New police uniforms --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers pause between question and

13 answer.

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. And when your uniform got dirty, when didn't you ask for a new

16 one?

17 A. When the MUP burnt down, the whole MUP down, I told you the whole

18 MUP building burned down. Only the walls remained.

19 Q. Thank you. But you say that you only wore the uniform for 20

20 days.

21 A. Well, I wore it for a month or 20 days. I mean, really, I

22 couldn't tell you exactly how many days. But I did wear it for a long

23 time.

24 Q. So the defence line is not that you are denying it, but just when

25 and where you removed the uniform, this is important here, so please don't

Page 5634

1 interrupt and answer however you want, but we really need to move along

2 gradually.

3 A. No problem.

4 Q. You said that after 20 days you took the uniform off and put on

5 civilian clothes. Does that mean that for the rest of the month you were

6 wearing civilian clothes but you were still a member of the MUP?

7 A. Yes, you could say that. I mean, you could say that I wore

8 uniform for more of the time than I wore civilian clothes. Whatever you

9 think. I mean, you can take it however you want.

10 Q. Thank you. But you need to tell me that yourself.

11 A. Well, you can take it that I wore uniform for more time than I

12 wore civilian clothes.

13 Q. How long?

14 A. I don't know. It was a month, less than a month.

15 Q. Very well. Very well. You said that you could not get new

16 uniforms because the MUP had burned down to the ground. And in response

17 to my colleague's question you said that this was about 10 days before you

18 were told that Vukovar had fell?

19 A. Yes, 10 to 15 days. It could be two weeks, it could be less than

20 two weeks.

21 Q. Thank you. But it could not be less than a week; is that correct?

22 A. No, it couldn't be less than that.

23 Q. Does that mean that that was when you released the captured

24 civilians, two or three weeks before that?

25 A. No, not three weeks before that. I don't know the dates. I just

Page 5635

1 know that they were released. They even broke down the door because the

2 man who had the key was killed, so they had to break down the door so that

3 those people wouldn't burn down.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Does that mean, as you said, only the

5 foundations remained, that it was all destroyed?

6 A. Well, the building is still there in Vukovar.

7 Q. Does that mean that after seven days, or seven days before you

8 entered the hospital six, five, four, three, two, one, and let's count

9 backwards, it wasn't burning anymore, it had been hit 10 or 15 days before

10 that, so you rule out the possibility that it could have been hit two or

11 three days before the day you went to the hospital. Is that correct?

12 A. No, no, that was not the case.

13 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us about this elderly woman and

14 her husband? Did you keep them there as hostages?

15 A. I don't know how they were keeping them, but since they were

16 detained, they were captured. I don't know if they were being held as

17 hostages, but that day they were released as well.

18 Q. I wasn't asking you that. Did you have telephone contacts with

19 the barracks since you said that the captain was in the barracks and he

20 was the son of these two elderly people?

21 A. I did hear something like that.

22 Q. Who did you hear it from?

23 A. From the police. That that lady, the mother, had a son who was a

24 JNA captain in the Vukovar barracks.

25 Q. Thank you. Was that the reason why they were taken captive and

Page 5636

1 why they were held as hostages, so that the captain would surrender? Do

2 you know that?

3 A. No, I don't know.

4 Q. Very well. Did they talk with the barracks by telephone then?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Did you hear about Jastreb younger and older?

7 A. I heard of both of them, especially Jastreb Mladi, the younger

8 one. I knew him. When I returned from the prison in Serbia, I met him

9 two or three months before that.

10 Q. Where?

11 A. We met in Zagreb.

12 Q. Did you talk about this testimony?

13 A. You mean the testimony today? No, I didn't know that I would

14 come. I wasn't sure that I would come.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Who is the Jastreb that you met at the time

16 of the Vukovar operations?

17 A. Allegedly he was a commander.

18 Q. Of what?

19 A. I really can't tell you anything that I don't know. I heard from

20 what he said that he was the commander of the Vukovar defence.

21 Q. Thank you. And who was your commander?

22 A. Stipe Pole. He was the chief of the police in Vukovar. His name

23 was Stipe Pole.

24 Q. And the -- you from the MUP of Croatia positions and the Sunce

25 positions on the Danube, were you able to see Mitnica?

Page 5637

1 A. No. But I was at Mitnica.

2 Q. When?

3 A. After I escaped from the JNA, 10 days after that I went to see

4 Mitnica. I was interested in seeing what it looked like. It was

5 completely demolished. Not a single house was standing.

6 Q. And when was this, in which period?

7 A. This was in early October, beginning of October.

8 Q. Well, this is something new. So tell us more about it. Who did

9 you go with?

10 A. We took a MUP vehicle. Myself and another boy who trained

11 boxing. He later got killed, unfortunately. I didn't spend a long time

12 there. I just went to see how badly it was destroyed.

13 Q. Did you find any ZNG positions, Home Guards positions in Mitnica,

14 and do you know that the Home Guard Corps had its positions at Mitnica

15 while you were there?

16 A. Well, probably.

17 Q. Thank you. Did you know where the fair-grounds were?

18 A. No. Maybe I passed by, but I didn't know it was the fair-ground.

19 Q. Thank you. As a member of the MUP, did you know that Home Guards

20 had their positions there at that time?

21 A. They must have had.

22 Q. Did you hear about ZNG positions in Luzac?

23 A. They were probably there.

24 Q. Thank you. And did you hear about Bogdanovci? Was there a larger

25 ZNG unit there?

Page 5638

1 A. I know that while I was a JNA soldier, Lorenc Dohanaj saw his

2 uncle through the binoculars somewhere near Bogdanovci.

3 Q. His uncle was in ZNG positions?

4 A. Yes, it's a Croatian army. It was a recognised army of Croatia.

5 I don't know why you're questioning me about that. If there were

6 paramilitaries units, as we know there were, why don't you ask me about

7 the paramilitaries and volunteers and all the others who were coming in

8 from Serbia?

9 Q. Am I being questioned now?

10 A. I would like an explanation.

11 Q. Let us move on. Since you were a MUP member, to the best of your

12 knowledge there were some ZNG members who came to fetch food on the

13 premises of the MUP?

14 A. They could have been at Mitnica, Luzac, anywhere else. They were

15 defending their own town, Vukovar.

16 Q. When you say "everywhere," where is that?

17 A. I said in the direction of Luzac, Mitnica. I was close to Sunce.

18 I don't know if there were any other locations.

19 Q. What about the Danube Hotel, Dunav Hotel?

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like another

21 missing piece of the answer to be recorded. And the witness said there

22 were positions in Borovo settlement.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said "probably."

24 Q. Do you know who occupied the high school building during those

25 operations, members of the ZNG or MUP?

Page 5639

1 A. It was captured by who? Occupied by who?

2 Q. Whether ZNG or MUP.

3 A. Why would they occupy a building in their own town?

4 Q. During the Vukovar combat was there any -- anyone in those

5 positions?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. You said that after two months spent in Vukovar you pulled back to

8 the area around the hospital; is that correct? In your statement to the

9 OTP, page 4, paragraph 2; English version page 4, paragraph 2, you said

10 you had withdrawn to the area around the hospital.

11 A. We withdrew closer to the hospital, that's true.

12 Q. Where were you in the area around the hospital, could you tell us

13 a bit closer, before you entered into the hospital? Please be so kind and

14 calm down and answer my questions slowly. So what were the positions

15 around the hospital to which you withdrew, as you said in your statement

16 to the OTP?

17 A. The day Vukovar fell we all withdrew to a basement. It was a

18 building; I can't tell which. There were also many civilians there. And

19 when the chief, Stipe Pole, and another couple of policemen, I don't know

20 the exact number, if there were 30 or more than 30, they formed a group

21 that got out of Vukovar. That's where we were, in the basement.

22 Q. I'll be asking you more about this. So you said you withdrew,

23 according to establishment, to some basement. How far from the hospital?

24 A. Well, I can't tell you how many metres away from the hospital,

25 maybe 500, maybe 20 metres. I don't know. It was a building with a large

Page 5640

1 basement.

2 Q. Excuse me, there is a big difference between 20 metres and 500.

3 A. I don't know the name of the building or what this place was

4 called, where the basement was. You are not letting me tell you what

5 happened later.

6 Q. I'll ask you about what happened later, but for now I want yes or

7 no answers.

8 A. Let me just explain what was located in that basement.

9 Q. I just asked you how far it was from the hospital. You told me

10 500 or 20.

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. If you don't know, never mind. Let's move on. How many of you

13 policemen were there?

14 A. Around 50 or 60. 50 to 60.

15 Q. Thank you. Were you all armed?

16 A. Yes, we were all armed.

17 Q. Thank you. Was it your combat position or police position that

18 had not yet fallen by that time?

19 A. No. We just withdrew there in order to be able to get out of

20 Vukovar. There were no positions of any kind.

21 Q. Why then did you then mix with the civilians, carrying weapons, 50

22 or 60 of you?

23 A. I don't understand the question. Why did we mix with the

24 civilians?

25 Q. I'm asking you because Vukovar had not fallen yet.

Page 5641

1 A. It was a question of time.

2 Q. All right. Thank you. You said you attempted to break the enemy

3 lines after that?

4 A. Not break through the enemy lines. Our chief, Stipe Pole, managed

5 somehow to get out of Vukovar. What kind of break-through do you think

6 that was with the huge amount of weapons at the disposal of the JNA?

7 Q. In your statement given in the Ovcara trial in Belgrade, page 38,

8 39 in English, we are still on line 48, you are talking about the

9 break-through.

10 A. Okay. If you want, let's call it break-through. But it wasn't

11 really a break-through. If you insist, though, let's call it

12 break-through. What kind of break-through is that if nobody fired a

13 bullet?

14 Q. And you were all armed?

15 A. We did. I'm not saying we didn't.

16 Q. When one exits a building in circumstances where the enemy side is

17 also there, around, does that mean in military terms that you were

18 breaking through, in the military sense?

19 A. Military break-through, no, sir.

20 Q. So what do you call it, a civilian break-through?

21 A. Let it be your way. Let it be a military break-through.

22 Q. So how many were you in that group?

23 A. Three groups were formed. I told you the chief, Stipe Pole, with

24 his policemen, who were mainly middle-aged men, got out of Vukovar. I was

25 in the second group.

Page 5642

1 Q. Thank you. Who else was there?

2 A. Lorenc, Kuscevic, Petar, Hrkic, Samir.

3 Q. How many?

4 A. 15 or 30 or 60, I don't know. I can't tell you now.

5 Q. All right. You tell me there were 30 or 60 in your second group?

6 A. Come on.

7 Q. So you attempted a break-through and then at some point you gave

8 up?

9 A. I'm going to tell you how it was. Stipe Pole, in fact, one man

10 said, "Dear gentlemen, each group will have a guide. You don't need to be

11 afraid. The delay, the interval between groups will be half an hour."

12 However, when the first group left we reached the Vuka River.

13 Q. That's enough of an answer.

14 A. Let me go on. A man was supposed to wait for us near a ranger's

15 lodge, but nobody was waiting. We were supposed to take a boat. Two men

16 managed to cross over the canal, and my friend Lorenc Dohanaj ran after

17 them and stepped on an anti-personnel grenade, anti-personnel mine.

18 Q. How far away was it from the hospital?

19 A. I don't know. I don't know. I know that I crossed over the

20 cemetery and the pitch in Vukovar. How far from the hospital that was, I

21 don't know.

22 Q. From the Vuka River, going back, you were all armed again, right?

23 A. Yes, I was armed.

24 Q. My question was were you all armed.

25 A. I know about myself. I don't know about anything else. I know

Page 5643

1 about Zlatko Zlogledja and Hrkic, Samir, I know they were armed. I don't

2 know about the rest because it was pitch-dark. In fact, Hrkic, Samir had

3 a pistol, not a rifle.

4 Q. And you were able to see that clearly?

5 A. Well, we were together that day.

6 Q. You said in your various statements that you threw away your arms

7 at a cemetery.

8 A. I did, and Zlatko did.

9 Q. Did you hide it or did you just throw it away?

10 A. I just threw it away. Or maybe in an open grave.

11 Q. All right. When you reached the hospital, did you see how far the

12 MUP building was from the hospital?

13 A. I don't know the exact distance, but it wasn't far. It was close.

14 Q. Very close?

15 A. It's not next door, but it's a hundred or 150 metres, but I know

16 that you can see the hospital nearby.

17 Q. Did you ever shoot from the MUP building?

18 A. No. But we were shot at, because we didn't have mortars, we

19 didn't have aircraft, and we were not able to return fire. I just want

20 you to know that.

21 Q. Did you learn later about that captain of yours who got killed at

22 the beginning? From where did mortars shoot at your positions killing one

23 captain and one -- wounding one soldier?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You were not interested?

Page 5644

1 A. No.

2 Q. So you reached the hospital?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The MUP building is close by?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. At that time it wasn't burning?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right. Thank you. I'll be moving on to a different subject

9 now.

10 You spoke about the time you spent at the barracks and how you

11 left for Ovcara. Now tell us this: When you set out in the convoy of

12 buses towards Ovcara would you now be so kind as to read from what you

13 stated to the OTP, page 48 in B/C/S -- excuse me, sorry. Page 4,

14 paragraph 6; English, page 4, paragraph 6. I don't want to confuse you.

15 It says: "I saw that there are about five buses lined up in the street.

16 Men were ordered to get on. I got on to the fourth bus and sat closer to

17 the end if you look from the head of the bus. I was sitting next to a man

18 whose name was Horvat, as far as I know. He was married, father of two

19 from Vinkovci. There was a guard on our bus armed with an automatic

20 rifle. The buses set out in a convoy and shortly stopped at the

21 barracks."

22 Is that so? That is, about the barracks.

23 Now, please look at what you stated at the Ovcara trial in

24 Belgrade about your trip from the barracks to Ovcara. That's page 48.

25 The English version, page 49, lines 13, 14. Does it say here, question by

Page 5645

1 the presiding judge, in response to the question of the presiding judge,

2 you said you were in the last bus but one and you think there were six of

3 them, "but I was in the last but one." In the fifth bus.

4 Now, look at what you said next: It says Counsel Todorovic: You

5 were in the fifth bus, that's how it starts.

6 Do you want me to read it to you?

7 A. Yes, yes. You will see what it's about.

8 Q. Let's take it slowly. So, you were appearing at the Ovcara trial

9 in Belgrade and you stated the following: We heard that you abide by that

10 statement that you gave under oath.

11 Now, Counsel Todorovic says, and I'm reading from the

12 transcript: "You were in the fifth bus. Did those buses travel in a

13 convoy, one behind the other?"

14 Witness, meaning you, answers, "Yes."

15 Counsel Todorovic: "Was there any security detail around, some

16 other vehicles, military vehicles going either in front or behind you?"

17 Witness: "Well, I think there were. There was a tank and a

18 transporter in front."

19 Presiding Judge: "You think there was tank at the head?"

20 Witness: "Yes, ahead of all those buses."

21 Does that -- is that written?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So it means that -- that the tank was at the head of the convoy?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And this transporter was right behind it?

Page 5646

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then the buses followed. So there was no one else, just the

3 tank, the transporter and the buses, nobody else? You stand by that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You also stated another time on the occasion of that testimony,

6 and of course you didn't mention that there was a passenger vehicle in

7 front, a jeep and so on.

8 A. Well, perhaps I did say it.

9 Q. No, you didn't say it there. You didn't say there, but you stand

10 by what you said?

11 A. Yes, I stand by what is written there.

12 Q. You said that the prisoners at Ovcara were abused by Arkan's men,

13 Seselj's men and the White Eagles, whereas yesterday during questioning

14 you said that you recognised the White Eagles because they had a white

15 ribbon tied around their arm. Is that the only mark indicating that they

16 belonged to Seselj's White Eagles?

17 A. I assumed that they were belonging to the White Eagles.

18 Q. If I were to say that some regular soldiers for that particular

19 operation that day also wore white ribbons on their sleeve, does that

20 change your assumption that we're talking about Seselj's and White Eagle

21 men?

22 A. When we came to the outskirts of Dubrava, close to Vukovar, there

23 were people from the reserve forces there, people wearing white ribbons

24 and they said they were White Eagles, and that's how I understood that

25 these other people also belonged to the White Eagles.

Page 5647

1 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, I would briefly like to deal with the

2 machine that you saw. You responded to my colleague's question, so I'm

3 not going to ask too many questions about that. My colleague read out to

4 you some text about the bucket. Yesterday on page 5541, line 24, up to

5 page 5542, line 2, you said -- this is in the corrected transcript, Your

6 Honours. If you don't have the corrected transcript it's on page 54,

7 lines 22 to 25.

8 In response to a question did you see that vehicle, thinking of

9 this machinery, you said it was a yellow bulldozer. Did you see that it

10 went anywhere, that was the question. And you answered: "No, I didn't.

11 I saw a soldier getting on to the machine and turning the ignition on and

12 the machine remained on."

13 That is your answer, and you remain by that answer.

14 Now the question: At any point, and I don't want to confuse you,

15 did anyone use the bucket to remove earth from one place and put it in

16 another place while you were there?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was anybody digging a hole on the road during that time?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And how about across the street?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Did you see anybody digging?

23 A. No, I didn't see anybody digging while I was there.

24 Q. Thank you. Did you see anywhere behind the hangar that the

25 machine was making a hole or not?

Page 5648

1 A. Please, sir, I'm telling you that as long as I was there, I didn't

2 see anything.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, you gave a statement to the Prosecution here, to

4 investigators here, and on page 5, paragraph 2; English version, page 5,

5 paragraph 3, could you please find that? I am going to read out the text,

6 and you can follow to make sure I am reading as it is written. "We had to

7 wait in front of the hangar while the people got out of the bus."

8 A. Could you please tell me what page it was?

9 Q. The statement you gave to the Prosecution, you have page 5. Have

10 you found it? And then at the top you have paragraph 1, and then

11 paragraph 2. Did you find it? It starts: "From the bus." And then it

12 says: "We had to wait" -- I'm just reading this part: "In front of the

13 hangar while people were getting out of the bus and during that time I saw

14 a backhoe excavator digging a hole behind the hangar."

15 The question is: Have I read the text correctly?

16 A. Yes, you have.

17 Q. Second question: Is that correct or not?

18 A. That I saw --

19 Q. I'm asking you if it's correct or not.

20 A. I did see an excavator, but this was not translated properly. I

21 don't know who translated it. It is not correct.

22 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that this part of the statement that I

23 just read out does not reflect what you stated and that this part of the

24 statement is not correct?

25 A. I think that this part about digging a hole is not correct.

Page 5649

1 Q. Thank you. Did you know, you mentioned in your statement in

2 Bjelovar a certain Franjo, about whom you heard and you mentioned that in

3 your statement later, that he lived in Zagreb, and that he was one of the

4 defence commanders in Borovo Naselje?

5 A. Franjo.

6 Q. Did you ever hear who the commander of the defence in

7 Borovo Naselje was? This is your statement in -- that you gave to the

8 criminal investigations police in Bjelovar in 1994. This is page 5,

9 paragraph 4; English version is page 4, paragraph 6. Page 5, paragraph 4.

10 Have you found it? So you go paragraph 1, 2, 3, 4, paragraph 4. You can

11 read the last sentence.

12 A. Well, I don't see exactly where it is. I don't see which page it

13 is.

14 Q. Page 5.

15 A. Oh, yes. I've found it.

16 Q. Well, very well. Let me. Doesn't it say that Franjo from Vukovar

17 who is now living in Zagreb was one of the commanders of the defence in

18 Borovo Naselje? Is that what it says?

19 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are overlapping.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps the gentleman

21 will allow me to explain.

22 Q. Just one moment. Number one, I will let you say what you want.

23 Do you confirm that this is what it states in your statement that you gave

24 to the police, the criminal investigations police in Bjelovar?

25 A. Yes, it says that.

Page 5650

1 Q. And now go ahead and answer.

2 A. This Franjo is not actually from Vukovar. These are people who

3 came from Varazdin. I met him at the police administration in Vukovar,

4 and it's possible that he was in the Borovo Naselje defence, but not that

5 he was from Vukovar.

6 Q. And now please tell us: Those people who came from Varazdin to

7 the police station where you were doing the operations?

8 A. They did not come to the police station. They would come to the

9 police station. Perhaps they happened to be at positions in Borovo

10 Naselje, but they would go there for food.

11 Q. Did I hear you properly, ZNG members would come from positions in

12 Varazdin?

13 A. These were MUP members, members of the MUP.

14 Q. All right. Very well. MUP members from Varazdin would come to

15 you, to the Vukovar MUP to get food; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. How far is Varazdin from Vukovar?

18 A. It's Croatia, sir. They came to their country.

19 Q. Can you please tell us how far Varazdin is from -- just one

20 second, please.

21 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am hearing the

22 warning from the interpreter. The witness must wait for my answer and

23 then we will not be overlapping, but I'm not asking for your

24 intervention. I'm almost done with my questioning.

25 Q. So since Varazdin is a town in Vukovar, you said yourself Franjo,

Page 5651

1 you -- and you mentioned Varazdin. So can you please tell us how far

2 Varazdin is from Vukovar?

3 A. How far Varazdin is from Vukovar.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there was a mistake in

5 the transcript that Varazdin is a town in Vukovar.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is what you said.

7 Q. Varazdin is a town in Croatia. Okay. So is Varazdin a town in

8 Croatia?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Second question: At the time of the Vukovar operations, you said

11 that members of MUP from Varazdin would come to MUP in Vukovar. How far

12 was that town from the town of Vukovar?

13 A. I don't know how many kilometres is dividing those two cities, but

14 it's pretty far. I don't know in kilometres how far apart they are,

15 Varazdin and Vukovar.

16 Q. Is it over 50 kilometres?

17 A. Well, it probably is over 50 kilometres.

18 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that members of the Varazdin MUP passed

19 through all the war-stricken areas to get to your station, to take food

20 for the MUP in Varazdin, what was the reason? Are there any other reasons

21 for that?

22 A. I don't understand all the fronts. By the time I left or fled

23 from the army, they were already there.

24 Q. Thank you. Where were they at the time?

25 A. They were in Borovo Naselje already.

Page 5652

1 Q. Thank you. So is your answer, or your statement that the police

2 officers from Varazdin were in Borovo Naselje?

3 A. Yes, they came to defend that area. They were defending the whole

4 of Croatia. They were defending their country. It should have been an

5 honour for them to defend their country.

6 Q. The policemen from Varazdin, when was the first time you saw them

7 at the front lines in Borovo?

8 A. I never saw them there because I was not in Borovo Naselje.

9 Q. When did you find out that they were there. When did you find

10 out?

11 A. When they were coming to the MUP to get the food I would talk to

12 them.

13 Q. What period was this, what month?

14 A. I really don't know which month it was. I have no idea. It was

15 October. Let's say that it was October.

16 Q. Thank you very much. How many of the MUP members from Varazdin

17 came to Borovo Naselje and were manning those combat positions?

18 A. Really, I don't know.

19 Q. Did they have automatic rifles or hunting rifles?

20 A. Those who came had automatic rifles.

21 Q. Thank you. Were you a member of the 204th Brigade of the ZNG?

22 A. What period are you thinking of now?

23 Q. Pick any period, just answer my question. Were you at any point a

24 member of the 204th Brigade?

25 A. When I came home from prison, in order to secure my due rights, we

Page 5653

1 were all members of the 204th Brigade.

2 Q. Thank you very much. And which month was this?

3 A. It was in 2004 when I came and that was when I requested this

4 certificate so that I could receive the rights that were due to me.

5 Q. And you left in -- you were released in 1993?

6 A. In 1994, early 1994.

7 Q. Very well. And now my last question. You spoke about Topcider

8 yesterday, what you went through there, and you said, "I know that

9 Topcider is close to Zemun." Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, I think it is. I mean, it's close to Belgrade. It's close

11 to Zemun. I was there.

12 Q. If I were to tell you that it is on the opposite side of Zemun,

13 that Zemun is at one end of Belgrade and Topcider is at the opposite end

14 from Zemun, would you change your answer?

15 A. Sir, you probably know much better than I do where Topcider is. I

16 thought that Topcider is near Zemun.

17 Q. Very well. And when you came here -- now really this is my last

18 question. When you came here to provide a statement here to this

19 Tribunal, did you provide any addition to your statement to the

20 Prosecution, did you provide an additional statement and did you sign it?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You didn't give an annex to your statement?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I am

Page 5654

1 finished with my questioning of the witness.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

3 We will now have the second break and we will resume at quarter

4 to 1.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

8 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Good

9 afternoon to everyone.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Bulatovic:

11 Q. Mr. Dodaj, good afternoon. I am Momcilo Bulatovic, one of the

12 Defence counsel for Mr. Sljivancanin. On behalf of the Defence team of

13 Mr. Sljivancanin, I am going to be putting some questions to you, and I

14 will try my best not to ask you questions already put by my colleagues.

15 Maybe some things that are still a little bit unclear to this team, I

16 would like to clarify. In order to avoid bad interpretation or wrong

17 interpretation or something wrong going into the transcript, I would like

18 to ask you to wait until I complete my question and then begin your

19 answer. If you feel there is something that you need to clarify and

20 explain, you will have enough time for that. Did you understand me?

21 A. Yes, I did very well.

22 Q. Before we move to actual questions, what I would like to do first

23 is to clarify something, and I think that we will both agree about this.

24 It's as follows: You, from 1991 until today, provided a number of

25 statements and had a number of interviews with different institutions; is

Page 5655

1 this correct?

2 A. Yes, you could say that.

3 Q. Your most recent statement was given to the department for war

4 crimes of the special department of the district court in Belgrade in

5 October 2004; is this correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In your testimony from yesterday and today when you spoke about

8 the events, you also talked about Mr. Sljivancanin, you mentioned him, so

9 what I would like to do is to clarify some things to see if I understood

10 them correctly.

11 You said that you saw Mr. Sljivancanin for the first time on the

12 19th of November, 1991 in the afternoon; is this correct?

13 A. I don't know what time it was, but I saw him inside the hospital.

14 Q. You talked about the person who was filming, you saw him with

15 Mrs. Bosanac, let's not repeat that. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. The second time you saw Mr. Sljivancanin was, you said, in the

18 hospital on the 20th of November, 1991 in the morning; is this correct?

19 A. In the hospital and I also saw him in front of the hospital.

20 Q. Can you explain how long you actually saw him, this visual contact

21 that you had with him, how long did that last? Did you see him for a

22 couple of seconds, a minute?

23 A. This is what I can say. I was about two metres away from him.

24 Q. Very well.

25 A. And I did look at him for a long time.

Page 5656

1 Q. Can you please tell me how long that is, for quite a long time?

2 A. Until we boarded the buses. I don't know how long it was, was it

3 half an hour, an hour, I couldn't say. But I was about two metres away

4 from him. I was quite close to him.

5 Q. So you were looking at him when he was in front of the hospital?

6 A. Yes, in front of the hospital.

7 Q. You told us that a staff member of the hospital told you to leave

8 the hospital; is this correct?

9 A. Yes. We received the order that we had to leave the hospital.

10 Q. You left and then what happened?

11 A. We exited the hospital and we were lined up in front of the

12 hospital. Before that they separated women and children to one side, and

13 they lined us up in front of the hospital.

14 Q. After that you said, okay, that women and children left first and

15 then after that you, and then the wounded.

16 A. Yes, probably all the wounded came outside as well.

17 Q. I think that's what you said yesterday. I don't want to confuse

18 you.

19 A. I don't remember saying that the wounded came out after us,

20 immediately after us. I don't recall that.

21 Q. Then you said that on that occasion you saw representatives of

22 international organisations who were standing next to the hospital?

23 A. Yes, they were standing to my left.

24 Q. In relation to this exit, which you used to enter and leave, so

25 the exit where you left, how far were they from this place, from this

Page 5657

1 exit?

2 A. You mean how many metres they were away?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. They were standing to the left side. I don't know how far they

5 were standing in metres, perhaps they were 10, 15 or 20 steps away.

6 Q. Very well. You said that you saw one of those representatives,

7 you remember him because he was wearing an earring?

8 A. Yes, he was wearing an earring.

9 Q. So I assume that you were not standing too far away?

10 A. Yes, I was standing some 10 to 15 steps away from him.

11 Q. I asked you about exiting the hospital, and that's something what

12 you described yesterday, because on page 42, line 1 of the transcript it

13 states that you said in response to a question by my learned friend from

14 the Prosecution, you said that women and children exited first, then you

15 and then the wounded, so I think that there is no dispute there.

16 A. Yes. Women and children and the elderly came out. We did,

17 everybody, then the wounded were brought out of the hospital later.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how long you stayed in this line when

19 they lined you up during this search? How long did this take?

20 A. You mean how many hours? I don't know exactly, but it wasn't less

21 than half an hour, it could have been longer. Only longer, I don't know

22 whether it was an hour or a little bit less than an hour.

23 Q. After that you went to the buses; is this correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I conclude that based on what you said earlier that

Page 5658

1 Mr. Sljivancanin remained by the entrance to the hospital?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. After that you entered the buses. How long did you spend in the

4 buses before you set off for the barracks?

5 A. I don't know how long we were there, but as soon as the buses were

6 filled, they left.

7 Q. Do you remember who was with you on the bus of the people that you

8 knew?

9 A. Of those people I knew, I said it was Petar Kuscevic, Samir Hrkic,

10 Zlatko Zlogledja, and this-- a gentleman named Horvat who was sitting next

11 to me.

12 Q. This gentleman, Mr. Horvat, when and where did you meet him?

13 A. I met him at the police administration in Vukovar.

14 Q. Do you know what he was doing at the police administration in

15 Vukovar?

16 A. He was a police officer.

17 Q. Do you recall at the time you spent in MUP, did he have a combat

18 position?

19 A. I don't know. I don't know about that. I met him again later at

20 the hospital.

21 Q. You said you saw five or six buses parked there?

22 A. I know I was in the last but one. How many there were, five or

23 six, I don't know, but I know I was in the last but one.

24 Q. Apart from the buses, there were no other vehicles, if I

25 understood you correctly?

Page 5659

1 A. I said there were no military vehicles, and the buses were

2 civilians and driven by civilian drivers. The civilian driver had a rifle

3 laid next to him.

4 Q. You arrived at the barracks, the buses stopped in the way you

5 described. And then something you already described happened. I'll skip

6 that. There are different time indications in various statements you gave

7 concerning your stay at the barracks. How long -- this is what I want to

8 know. How long did the bus -- buses stay outside the barracks before they

9 moved on to what you later learned to be Ovcara?

10 A. Whether we were there for an hour, two hours, less than an hour,

11 less than two hours, I really can't tell you. I really can't tell you

12 anything about the number of hours we spent there.

13 Q. In all that time that you were there, you did not see

14 Mr. Sljivancanin at the barracks?

15 A. No, I did not.

16 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to know about your arrival at Ovcara.

17 Could you give us a time-frame, or at least indicate the time of day when

18 you came to the Ovcara farm?

19 A. I don't know what time it was. All I know was that the sun was

20 shining very bright. How -- what time it was, I don't know.

21 Q. In your bus, the last but one, as you said, did you sit closer to

22 the front or closer to the back?

23 A. Somewhere in the middle, perhaps closer to the back. On the

24 right-hand side, I believe.

25 Q. Were your mates from the army together with you, the ones that you

Page 5660

1 mentioned earlier?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell me how one vacates a bus. Is it the case that one bus is

4 emptied and then moves on, and then another moves up and is emptied? Or

5 do they all vacate simultaneously?

6 A. One by one.

7 Q. How long does it take to empty one bus, if you can remember?

8 A. I can't know that. Whether it's 15 minutes or 20 minutes, I

9 really don't know.

10 Q. In some of your statements you mentioned that your comrade

11 Kuscevic was the first to get off the bus.

12 A. Right.

13 Q. And he was the first one to be hit?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And after that he said he was a soldier of the Yugoslav army who

16 had been what, captured by the Croatian forces? How did the dialogue go?

17 A. I'll tell you. Before he got off one other man got off, he was

18 wearing a cockade, and asked, "Is there anyone on this bus who is an

19 ethnic Albanian." He could not guess that I was an ethnic Albanian just

20 by my accent. And the man said, "If we establish that there is an ethnic

21 Albanian among you, the whole bus will come to a bad end." That's when I

22 decided to come out.

23 When Petar Kuscevic got off the bus, somebody hit him with a

24 shovel handle and he said, "Don't, don't hit me, I'm a JNA soldier, the

25 Ustashas captured me." Then they helped him up on his feet.

Page 5661

1 Q. Could you just slow down for the transcript.

2 A. The captain was close to the bus. He pulled him too and asked,

3 "Are there any more of you on that bus," and then he pointed, Zlatko, me,

4 and Hrkic. And that man came up to me and said, "You were born again

5 today." And they put us on one side.

6 Q. Very well. Now I want to know were there any of you from that bus

7 who went into the hangar?

8 A. No. I never said I did.

9 Q. I'm just asking. You say that later you were separated from the

10 others.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where did they make you stand relative to the hangar?

13 A. If we had a picture, I could show you.

14 Q. It's Exhibit 228. And with the help of the usher, I would like to

15 show the witness photograph 22. It's from the 65 ter exhibits,

16 number 228.

17 That's the photograph, right, Mr. Dodaj?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Take this pointer, the magic pen, and please mark with a cross the

20 place where they left you after the four or five of you were gathered,

21 were rounded up? Where were you standing with those two colonels?

22 A. They were lieutenant-colonels.

23 Q. Sorry.

24 A. Shall I put a cross there?

25 Q. Right. I can't see it. Can you put a number 1?

Page 5662

1 A. From which side?

2 Q. Any side you like, as long as it's visible. And please put a

3 circle around number 1.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. At the moment when you were standing there, because of the time it

6 was taking to empty the buses one by one, was there a -- was it possible

7 for you to see the buses, including the bus on which you were on?

8 A. No. But I could see the bus behind us.

9 Q. All right. Then please mark the position of that sixth bus.

10 Where was it standing, the last bus? Because you were in the last but

11 one.

12 A. Well, it moved away pretty quickly after we got off. It was

13 somewhere here. It was actually closer to us. Maybe I left too much

14 distance.

15 Q. Never mind. Just put number 2 there, and a little circle around

16 the number.

17 A. [Marks].

18 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

19 tender this exhibit as it is marked.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received, Mr. Bulatovic.

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit number 238, Your Honours.

22 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Now, Mr. Dodaj, I want to know this: Bearing in mind the photo

24 that you marked and the whole layout, did you go on standing together with

25 the lieutenant-colonels, were you still standing there when the last bus

Page 5663

1 was emptied?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you see where this last bus headed as it was leaving? Did

4 they go back or what?

5 A. I can't tell you that, I really don't know. I don't think they

6 went back. I can't even say whether they made a turn into the yard or

7 not.

8 Q. All right. Now, tell me, how long did your discussion with those

9 two lieutenant-colonels last in the spot marked 1?

10 A. Until the hangar door closed and until the military vehicle Puch

11 arrived with a driver.

12 Q. That's what I want to know. How long did it take?

13 A. I don't know. I don't know how much time. I can't say whether it

14 was an hour or two.

15 Q. Now, throughout that time while you were talking to those two

16 lieutenant-colonels, were the five of you there together?

17 A. You mean four?

18 Q. Yes, four.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Apart from this officer who arrived in this Puch vehicle with his

21 driver, did you notice any other officers coming in, passing by, coming up

22 to those lieutenant-colonels?

23 A. Apart from the officers, I saw that captain who singled out Pero

24 Kuscevic, the two lieutenant-colonels, and the officer to came to fetch

25 us. I didn't see any other officers. I've already said this.

Page 5664

1 Q. Now, about this captain, did you see what happened with this

2 captain?

3 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a little correction to make

4 in the transcript. Page 87, line 22. My question was: Apart from these

5 two lieutenant-colonels and that captain while I was standing there and

6 talking, did he see any other officers. And the witness answered no.

7 However, that answer is not recorded.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

9 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Yes, go on.

11 A. I said next to me there were these two lieutenant-colonels, there

12 was one captain next to the bus and that officer who came to fetch us.

13 Q. I asked you, apart from those officers, did you see any others?

14 A. No, I did not. But let me tell you one more thing. While we were

15 standing outside the hangar, I know that one volunteer came and asked the

16 lieutenant-colonel to free one of the men who were inside the hangar.

17 Q. You have already said that.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are again speaking at the same time

19 and later complain that things are missing from the transcript.

20 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. So we can agree that during your stay at Ovcara farm from the

22 moment when you left the bus until the moment you entered the Puch vehicle

23 which took you to Negoslavci, you did not see Mr. Sljivancanin there?

24 A. No, I did not.

25 Q. You say that the buses were guarded by soldiers?

Page 5665

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you see those soldiers after the buses left or did they leave

3 together with the buses as if they were escorting them?

4 A. The soldiers came up all the way to Ovcara with us and they were

5 the first to get off.

6 Q. You didn't see what happened with them later?

7 A. No, I didn't see where they went.

8 Q. Now I will ask you to tell me, if you can, to the best of your

9 knowledge what they looked like, these two lieutenant-colonels. Please

10 give me a description. Maybe one of my colleagues already asked you this,

11 but please describe for me both lieutenant-colonels, that captain, and

12 that officer who came to fetch you in any order you like. In a narrative

13 that I will not interrupt.

14 A. They had wind-jackets, windbreakers. They were rather neat,

15 clean. Their hair had shades of grey.

16 Q. All of them.

17 A. Two of them. I don't know their age. If somebody had asked me my

18 name at that time, I feel I wouldn't have been able to answer. But when

19 that man came up to them and asked them to free one man from the hangar, I

20 was sure they occupied a high position, a senior position. They could

21 have freed anyone they wanted. They were not particularly stout or thin.

22 Average, I would say.

23 Q. What about the captain?

24 A. The captain who came to fetch --

25 Q. No, you said it was an officer.

Page 5666

1 A. The captain was with us. He was standing next to the bus. He had

2 dark hair, maybe black, also a JNA uniform, rather slim.

3 Q. How tall?

4 A. Between 170, 180 centimetres. I couldn't be more precise.

5 Q. And what about the officer who came in the Puch vehicle?

6 A. He was also rather slim, trim, neat. He had a Heckler gun. He

7 got out of the Puch, opened the hangar door, looked in, closed it, and

8 left, talked for a second to the soldiers standing outside the hangar,

9 then came up to us and told us, "Get in."

10 Q. Did he linger after you got into the car, talking to somebody?

11 A. Yes. He discussed something with them, but not for long.

12 Q. During that time was the hangar door closed?

13 A. Yes, it was closed. I know exactly that while the buses were

14 emptied there were four children standing outside their door. What

15 happened with them later, whether they were driven away and where, I don't

16 know.

17 Q. I wanted to take you back to your arrival at Vukovar. Many

18 questions have already been asked on the subject, but what's important for

19 me is some sort of chronology that would enable me to better understand

20 some of the things you stated here. On the 24th of September in 1991, you

21 made the decision to leave the Yugoslav People's Army for the reasons you

22 have already stated?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I want to know who initiated that decision? Yourself or somebody

25 else?

Page 5667

1 A. I -- I was. I initiated it.

2 Q. Before you left on the 24th September, before you left the JNA in

3 the way you've described for us, did you have any contact through anyone

4 whatsoever with people from Vukovar?

5 A. While I was on JNA positions?

6 Q. Before you left.

7 A. No, I did not.

8 Q. From that place, from your position until the junction where you

9 met some locals, as you described, how far is it?

10 A. I really don't know the distance between those people and our

11 positions. I really can't put a number. I really don't want to say

12 any -- anything wrong again for these transcripts.

13 Q. I want precisely to avoid errors on the transcript. I can ask

14 you, for instance, was it more than five kilometres or less?

15 A. It was less than five kilometres.

16 Q. You said you ran into a local, a civilian, and you told him what

17 to do and you told him that you wanted to surrender. Did you give him any

18 instructions as to who he should inform that you wanted to surrender?

19 A. We just asked him to tell people not to shoot at us.

20 Q. Do you know -- does that mean you knew that the guardsmen were

21 holding positions there?

22 A. I didn't know. I didn't know, how could I know? Sir, I was from

23 Bjelovar. I telephoned from the barracks to my home and they described

24 the situation for me. They told me there were troops, they told me there

25 was the MUP of Croatia, they told me there was the Croatian Home Guards

Page 5668

1 Corps, that's a fact. Of course there were ZNG positions there.

2 Q. And from the moment you told that civilian, that local person that

3 you wanted to surrender to inform the guards, until the moment you reached

4 the positions of the guard, how long did it take?

5 A. He was the one who went ahead to tell the guardsmen that there

6 were five soldiers wishing to surrender. How far, what the distance was,

7 I really can't tell you.

8 Q. Once you arrived to the place where the guards were, did you speak

9 with the members of the guard before you went to the MUP?

10 A. Yes, they asked us once we surrendered, people embraced us, one

11 started crying, had tears rolling down his face. His brother worked in

12 Bjelovar at a gas station, and he asked me whether I knew his brother and

13 said the place where he was from and so on.

14 Q. Who started crying?

15 A. This member of the guards. The guards and the MUP members didn't

16 shoot at the regular JNA soldiers.

17 Q. How come you know that?

18 A. Nobody was wounded on our positions except for that one soldier.

19 Q. All right. If the guards and MUP members didn't shoot at the

20 regular JNA soldiers, who did they shoot then?

21 A. Mostly JNA officers. This is why the officers would remove their

22 rank insignia from their uniforms and put it in their pockets. And then

23 if they addressed us and we would disregard them, then they would take

24 this rank insignia from their pockets to show that they were, in fact,

25 officers.

Page 5669

1 Q. Which weapons did they use to shoot at the JNA officers?

2 A. I don't know because they didn't hit anyone except for that

3 captain who got killed, or actually who was wounded. And that was a

4 mortar shell.

5 Q. Did they have snipers?

6 A. I don't know that. Probably they did. I didn't see them.

7 Q. Do you know how many officers of the regular JNA army died in

8 Vukovar?

9 A. I don't.

10 Q. How long did you stay with the guards members?

11 A. Not long. Because they immediately transferred us to the MUP

12 building.

13 Q. If you had such friendly relations with the guards members, one of

14 them even started crying upon hearing that you knew his brother in

15 Bjelovar?

16 A. No, sir, that's not what I said. He said that his brother worked

17 in Bjelovar and he asked me whether I knew him. I told him that I wasn't

18 from Bjelovar, but that I knew the gas station, which is in Bjelovar.

19 Q. Mr. Dodaj, first of all, I'd like to ask you not to interrupt me

20 as I'm talking. That's number one. Number two, there is absolutely no

21 reason for you to be so jumpy.

22 A. I'm not.

23 Q. Third, I do my best not to put in your mouth something that you

24 didn't say, and I always give you an opportunity to correct me if I say

25 something wrongly.

Page 5670

1 Let us now go back. Did you say that a member of the guards

2 started crying once you got there, that they embraced you?

3 A. Listen --

4 Q. Tell me.

5 A. Well, let me explain. Tears started rolling down his face.

6 Q. All right. You had a friendly conversation?

7 A. Naturally. Of course it was friendly, yes.

8 Q. I didn't mean anything bad when I said that. They took you to the

9 MUP building?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. My question was: Since you had such friendly conversations with

12 the guards members, why did they lock you up in the MUP building?

13 A. You could say that they put us in detention to check where we had

14 come from and who we were and so on.

15 Q. All right. Now, there are some inconsistencies here, so let's see

16 if we can clarify? How many days did you spend in detention.

17 A. Well, I don't know whether it was three days, more than three

18 days, less. I can't say that that was actually proper detention. We were

19 together with them, watching television in the basement until -- well, we

20 could say three days, more than three days, I can't tell.

21 Q. All right. We can't seem to be able to define whether you were

22 detained or not. You were with them together. How many of them were

23 there, those that you were with? Were you in the same room, did you have

24 freedom of movement?

25 A. We didn't have freedom of movement until they checked who we were

Page 5671

1 and where we were from and so on.

2 Q. How many days later did you ask for uniforms from the moment you

3 arrived at the MUP?

4 A. Until they told us clearly that one couldn't leave Vukovar any

5 longer, that it was under siege.

6 Q. In those rooms, if I understood you well, you could watch

7 television?

8 A. Yes, video recorder.

9 Q. So videotapes?

10 A. Yes. We watched videotapes and we listened to Ceca sing.

11 Q. Were you able to watch live broadcasting?

12 A. Yes. I watched as the powder plant was blown up in Bjelovar.

13 Q. All right. You said that a mother of some captain was there?

14 A. No, not there, sir. Next to the police building, or rather, yes,

15 in the detention premises of the police building. But I don't know when

16 she arrived there and who brought her.

17 Q. Was she also able to watch television or do something similar?

18 A. I don't think so.

19 Q. I would like now to turn to your combat assignment, positions,

20 your positions were called Sunce, they were facing Luzac?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did other [as interpreted] have positions as well? There are some

23 things that remained unclear to me. Because you talked about eight of you

24 and I would like to know what happened to the other six.

25 Let's check Lorenc first. Did he have a combat disposition?

Page 5672

1 A. Yes, he was in the direction of Luzac.

2 Q. All right. What about Kobas. Did he have a combat disposition?

3 A. I don't think so.

4 Q. Hrkic?

5 A. Neither.

6 Q. Kuscevic?

7 A. He didn't.

8 Q. Rasid Adzibegovic?

9 A. He didn't have it either.

10 Q. Do you know what the four of them did?

11 A. They were in the basement of the police station.

12 Q. Did they have any kind of police or military assignments?

13 A. No, I don't think so. They didn't even have uniforms.

14 Q. So you were in the MUP building and on the positions how long --

15 or rather, the four of them were there until the MUP building was set on

16 fire?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you stayed on your positions until?

19 A. Until we were given order to pull back. It was on the 17th

20 or 18th, I don't remember any longer, but I stayed there all the way up

21 until we withdrew towards the shelter.

22 Q. All right. I will ask you about whether you heard about the

23 surrender of the group from Mitnica?

24 A. I didn't hear about that, but I know that Mitnica was cut off.

25 Q. You were at Mitnica?

Page 5673

1 A. Yes, I was. I said so. But before it had been cut off.

2 Q. Yes, you were there in October and this was the 18th of November

3 when the Mitnica battalion surrendered?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you hear of a person called Filip Karaula?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Never?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Not until today?

10 A. Well, it's possible that I did hear of such a name, but I never

11 paid attention to it. I don't know who he is and what he did.

12 Q. If I were to tell you --

13 A. Please go ahead.

14 Q. If I were to tell you that he was commander of the Mitnica

15 battalion, would that ring a bell?

16 A. No, not to me personally. But if he was I'll take your word for

17 it. You seem to know it. Is he still alive?

18 Q. That's what he claims. That's not what I claim.

19 Now I need to clarify something about Srecko Ravlija. He was hit

20 by a mortar shell in the MUP yard?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When was it?

23 A. I don't know this accurately, sir. I sat there together with him,

24 and fortunately, fortunately for me, I went to the basement right then

25 when the shell landed and it pierced two batteries, two military batteries

Page 5674

1 and severed his leg. He bled profusely and then at the hospital his leg

2 was amputated. I don't know what date it was.

3 Q. Can we try to pin-point this in relation to the MUP building being

4 set on fire. Did this happen before that?

5 A. Yes, yes, before that.

6 Q. What about Adzibegovic, Rasid was he injured in an operation?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know what happened to him? You were on the positions.

9 A. He was at the police administration building in the basement.

10 Q. After the MUP building was bombed do you know what happened to

11 him?

12 A. Well, let me tell you. Rasid Adzibegovic I believe was a

13 Montenegrin, but he was of Orthodox faith, and his brother fought on the

14 opposite side. When Vukovar fell he went to his brother and he was --

15 Rasid was on very good terms with this policeman, and once this happened

16 he took him with him, and I don't know what happened to him later on.

17 Q. When did this happen, when did he leave Vukovar?

18 A. Once the army arrived, could have been the 19th. He was with this

19 person. I think it was on the 19th or the 20th. I think 19th. I know it

20 was dark. It was night-time.

21 Q. Mr. Dodaj, can we agree that your recollections about these events

22 was the freshest back in 1994 when you talked to the Bjelovar police

23 people?

24 A. Well, in relation to the period of time, yes. One cannot remember

25 everything at the same time. Whenever you talk about events, some new

Page 5675

1 recollections emerge.

2 Q. Yes, I agree. In the conversations with the inspectors or

3 policemen from Bjelovar you spoke about three groups numbering 20 people

4 each for break-through. You covered this with my friend Borovic, so we

5 will not dwell on this, but I will ask you something else.

6 After this unsuccessful break-through, if we can call it that, or

7 unsuccessful attempt to leave Vukovar?

8 A. Yes, to leave Vukovar.

9 Q. Did you, after that, go straight back to the hospital?

10 A. Yes. We brought a man. We brought Lorenc, who had been injured

11 by a mine, we brought him to the hospital and we stood there. We had

12 discarded our weapons and then we entered the hospital.

13 Q. On that day with Lorenc --

14 A. Zlatko Zlogledja was there, Hrkic Samir.

15 Q. Please. On that day when you brought Lorenc to the hospital, once

16 you came back, how many of you entered the hospital together with Lorenc?

17 A. I wouldn't be able to say. I don't know the number. All I know

18 is that Lorenc, myself, Hrkic and Petar Kuscevic entered the hospital

19 together.

20 Q. I'm asking you whether anybody else came in with you?

21 A. Probably, yes.

22 Q. Were there any people who entered hospital with you who wore

23 police uniforms?

24 A. I don't know that, truly. Maybe there were such individuals.

25 Q. You turned over Lorenc to the doctors due to his injuries?

Page 5676

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Where did you go?

3 A. We were in the -- on the ground floor of the hospital, or

4 basement. I don't know what it was. Ground floor. Next to them in the

5 corridor.

6 Q. Do you remember which entrance you went through when you went

7 inside the hospital?

8 A. Through the same door that we went out, once we went out.

9 Q. During your stay at the hospital you, I mean Kuscevic, Zlogledja

10 Hrkic and yourself, did you all stay together, or were you separate in

11 various locations?

12 A. Mostly we were together.

13 Q. Do you know that on that day, the 20th, in the morning, a meeting

14 was held in the hospital, or something similar?

15 A. The 20th?

16 Q. Yes, in the morning.

17 A. I don't know about that. We were just given an order to come out

18 of the hospital. Whether they negotiated with Dr. Vesna Bosanac about the

19 surrender of the hospital, I don't know.

20 Q. Did any of the doctors at the hospital or any civilians who had

21 already been in the hospital, any patients or anybody else, did they tell

22 you that the evacuation of civilians was supposed to take place from

23 Velepromet and that Dr. Bosanac said that civilians should not come to the

24 hospital but rather go to Velepromet?

25 A. I truly don't know that. All I know is that women and children

Page 5677

1 were put on one side. I don't know about the rest. Maybe what you say is

2 true, but I don't know about that.

3 Q. If I understood these events correctly, you arrived at the

4 hospital when? On the 18th in the evening or 17th?

5 A. I think it was the 18th in the evening.

6 Q. I think so too. But it was the night before leaving the hospital,

7 you spent that night at the hospital?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know that some lists were being drafted at the hospital for

10 evacuation of civilians and that representatives of the Croatian Red Cross

11 took part in drafting these lists?

12 A. I don't know about that.

13 Q. You don't?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. You said that there were some JNA members who were wounded and who

16 were treated at the hospital and that there was a sergeant there and two

17 soldiers?

18 A. Yes, I think that the sergeant was wounded. I don't know about

19 the soldiers.

20 Q. You said that you knew that one of them had talked to General

21 Raseta?

22 A. Yes, we could hear that on the radio.

23 Q. I'd like to know where did you hear this on the radio, while you

24 were at the police station, on the positions, or at the hospital?

25 A. While I was at the police station.

Page 5678

1 Q. And what did you hear?

2 A. I heard them say that the army should stop shelling the hospital,

3 the town, that the shells were landing on the hospital, that the hospital

4 was practically all destroyed and the like. Well, those were not verbatim

5 words, but I know that he asked that the hospital not be shelled.

6 Q. Can I conclude that you heard the voice of that soldier on the

7 radio?

8 A. Yes, I heard the voice.

9 Q. You heard him say that?

10 A. I don't know whether he said that. It was said that the sergeant

11 who was at the hospital and was wounded uttered those words.

12 Q. Do you remember where this conversation took place, or this person

13 established radio connection from where?

14 A. Well, he was at the hospital.

15 Q. In your examination-in-chief you said that in the morning of

16 the 20th you saw the sergeant and the soldiers standing at the entrance of

17 the hospital and pointing with fingers, people who allegedly had tortured

18 them. Would you please describe this situation and how this evolved?

19 A. As we were leaving the hospital he had crutches and he leaned

20 against the door and pointed his finger at those who had mistreated him

21 inside.

22 Q. Did you hear him describe the mistreatment?

23 A. No, I didn't hear that.

24 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have many

25 more questions left, but I believe that it's time for our adjournment for

Page 5679

1 the day. My cross-examination will not take more than 15 to 20 minutes,

2 but let me ask for half an hour, because I would not like to be in the

3 situation where I can't keep my word.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Bulatovic. I will resist the temptation

5 of putting a fine time on you.

6 We will adjourn now. You will be encouraged to have heard those

7 last words, that we're getting very near the end of your evidence. It

8 should finish in the course of early tomorrow afternoon. We will be

9 resuming again tomorrow at 2.15.

10 We will adjourn until then.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of March,

13 2006, at 2.15 p.m.