Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5805

1 Friday, 10 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Always a pleasure to see you, Mr. Moore.

7 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

8 Your Honour, may I deal with one preliminary matter. It deals

9 with the next witness. The next witness is, I believe, 73 years of age.

10 He suffers from --

11 JUDGE PARKER: Relatively young.

12 MR. MOORE: A young man, I'm glad to say. He suffers from

13 post-traumatic stress. He has been on medication for a considerable

14 period of time. Yesterday he saw the doctor and nurse because he was

15 feeling unwell. He's available, clearly, to commence his evidence today

16 and he was to arrive at 3.30. I've spoken to my learned friends. I'm

17 told that they may not conclude today or they may conclude today; it's on

18 the cusp of timing, if I may put it that way. I don't know if the Court

19 would object to this defendant not starting -- this witness starting

20 his evidence this afternoon but to start clearly on the Monday. Can I

21 say, however, he is available to commence, if necessary. I only make the

22 application because of concerns for his health.

23 JUDGE PARKER: It -- in the circumstances, even though I'm

24 confident the Defence will be quick in their cross-examination, I think it

25 would be an appropriate thing, in view of the condition and age of the

Page 5806

1 witness, to say that we will commence on Monday with his evidence.

2 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. That's very kind of you.

3 JUDGE PARKER: The affirmation you made at the beginning of your

4 evidence still applies, of course.

5 Mr. Vasic.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

7 afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

8 WITNESS: WITNESS P-011 [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]

11 Q. Sir, good afternoon. Before I continue with my examination, I

12 would just like to remind you of what we said yesterday, and that is that

13 you should pause before beginning your answer after I complete my

14 question, and I will also pause after you give your answer so that the

15 interpreters could finish their interpretation and so that your voice is

16 not picked up by my microphone.

17 Thank you. Yesterday we talked about it and you explained to us

18 in detail the laying down of mines in Vukovar in 1991. I would just like

19 to ask you a couple of things about that, and that is: Could you please

20 tell us in how many places in October 1991 was the Nova Ulica, Nova Street

21 in Vukovar, booby-trapped, if you recall?

22 A. I cannot really -- I don't know.

23 Q. My second question about this concerns the trip that my colleague

24 showed to you in photographs yesterday -- actually, the road. That is the

25 road from the barracks to the hospital which goes along the Sajmiste

Page 5807

1 Street, Krasova Street, Zmajeva, Dimitrija Tucovica, all the way until the

2 Zrtava Fasizma Square, as well as the Gunduliceva Street. Can you please

3 tell us in how many places was this route booby-trapped in October 1991?

4 A. I would need to correct it. It's Marko Oreskovic Square, not

5 square Zrtava Fasizma. But I didn't understand your question properly.

6 Maybe you can repeat it and be more clear without actually mentioning the

7 names of the streets.

8 Q. Well, I just mentioned the streets so that it would be clear to

9 the Chamber. In how many places was this route from the hospital blocked

10 or booby-trapped in October 1991?

11 A. In October, only Krasova Street was booby-trapped.

12 Q. Thank you. What about November?

13 A. Only Krasova again.

14 Q. Thank you very much. We will not dwell on this topic any longer.

15 Can you please tell us whether in 1991 you personally knew Stanko

16 Vujanovic and Miroljub Vujic?

17 A. Yes, I knew those persons.

18 Q. Did you know a person by the name of Dusan Jaksic?

19 A. That name is not familiar. Maybe I knew a person of

20 similar-sounding name, but I really can't tell judging just by this name.

21 Q. Thank you very much. I have an intervention for the transcript.

22 It's at page 3, line 14. The last name is Miroljub Vujovic.

23 Do you know that as early as September 1991 there was the

24 logistics and the staff of the so-called Serbian Territorial Defence of

25 Vukovar located at Velepromet?

Page 5808

1 A. I don't know that.

2 Q. Thank you. As we mentioned Velepromet already, yesterday you told

3 my learned friend while looking at the photograph, which was tendered as

4 Exhibit 250, you pointed out a part of the area where you can see

5 Velepromet, the brick factory and Vupik. Can you tell us how far Vupik

6 and Velepromet are, how far apart are they? Can you give us an estimate?

7 A. I assume that it would be a distance of about 100 or 200 metres.

8 These two buildings are very close.

9 Q. Thank you. From the beginning of the war in Vukovar, both the

10 brick factory and Vupik operated normally. Is that correct?

11 A. I don't know exactly which period you're talking about. I really

12 am not able to comment on what was normal and what was not.

13 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether the brick factory was an

14 independent enterprise and did it have any other facilities or buildings

15 in Vukovar other than the ones shown in photograph 250?

16 A. I'm not really an expert on this business or economic sector, but

17 I assume that it was an independent manufacturing and merchandising entity

18 and it was only in that one location.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please be shown

21 Exhibit 250 on our monitors. Thank you.

22 Q. Can you see the photograph that you marked yesterday?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Vupik is marked by the letter A, the brick factory is marked by

25 the letter C, and D is marked by the letter -- Vupik is marked --

Page 5809

1 Velepromet is marked by the letter D?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now we see a part of Velepromet -- one part of it. The other part

4 of it is not visible. Can you please tell us if Velepromet had an

5 administrative building as well as a hangar.

6 A. Are you thinking of that location or are you thinking of the

7 centre of town?

8 Q. I'm thinking of this location here.

9 A. I don't know whether the administrative building was there or

10 whether it was in the centre of town. The hangars were here, in any case,

11 at this location.

12 Q. If you remember, can you please tell us in relation to this

13 building marked by the letter D here, are the hangars left of this

14 building?

15 A. They are actually along the length of the building, further along,

16 to the left side, if you can put it like that.

17 Q. Could we say that it was opposite from the Vupik and the brick

18 factory buildings?

19 A. Those three companies formed a sort of triangle.

20 Q. Thank you very much. In any case, we are not able to see the

21 hangars on this photograph, are we?

22 A. I can't see them.

23 Q. Thank you very much.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] We won't be needing this exhibit

25 anymore. Could you please now show us Exhibit -- actually, it's a

Page 5810

1 photograph with the ERN number 04672115. Thank you very much.

2 Q. Can you see this photograph and is Velepromet depicted on this

3 photograph?

4 A. Yes. This should be the Velepromet in Vukovar at the Sajmiste.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please tell me whether the building

6 which you marked in Exhibit 250 with the letter D indicating the

7 Velepromet facility, is that this building that we can see in the lower

8 centre of the photograph that we're looking at now?

9 A. Maybe yes, maybe no. I'm not really sure because I was marking

10 the area; I wasn't marking a particular building, just the area where this

11 company called Velepromet was operating.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please tell me whether this area

13 that we can see where the hangars are and the area behind the hangars is

14 an area that is not visible on the previous photograph that we looked at,

15 which was Exhibit 250.

16 A. Yes, I've already said that I assume that, but I cannot state that

17 definitely because these are two separate photographs which can depict

18 different things. So it's not so easy to be specific about which building

19 goes where.

20 Q. Thank you very much. I understand your caution, but I'm going to

21 ask you this question in this way. Do you agree that in this photograph

22 you cannot see the facilities belonging to Vupik or to the brick factory?

23 A. Yes, I would agree with that.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

Page 5811

1 this photograph as an exhibit.

2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 262.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 Since the Defence wanted to be as efficient as possible, we have

6 divided up our topics.

7 Q. So now we're going to move to the actual events in Ovcara, while

8 my colleagues from other Defences will ask you about other things.

9 Q. You mentioned you knew Miroljub Vujovic and Stanko Vujanovic. Did

10 you see these people at Ovcara on the 20th of November, 1991?

11 A. I can see with certainty that I did see Miroljub Vujovic in the

12 hangar itself. And as for Stanko Vujanovic, because of the passage of

13 time, I'm not actually sure whether he was in front of the hangar or not,

14 but I repeat again that I'm sure about Miroljub.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Do you remember how Miroljub Vujovic was

16 dressed when you say you saw him in the hangar.

17 A. According to what I remember, he was wearing some sort of military

18 clothing and he had an unusual hat, like a commando would wear. It was

19 not something that a regular soldier would wear.

20 Q. Thank you very much. You said that he was wearing some kind of

21 uniform. Was that an SMB uniform, an olive-drab coloured uniform?

22 A. As I said, a lot of time has passed since then and I recollect

23 that it was that colour. I remember it well enough that it could have

24 been the olive-drab colour, but again I say I cannot be quite certain

25 about anything.

Page 5812

1 Q. Thank you. At the time in 1991, did you also know a person called

2 Ivica Husnjak?

3 A. Yes, I did know him.

4 Q. Did you see him on the 20th of November, 1991, at Ovcara?

5 A. No, I don't recollect seeing him.

6 Q. Did you know a person called Boza Vratinovic?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Thank you. Did you see him at Ovcara on the 20th of November,

9 1991?

10 A. No. I don't recall seeing him at Ovcara. His name, though, is

11 Bozo Latinovic, not Vratinovic.

12 Q. Thank you very much for your help. It was a mistake in the

13 transcript.

14 In response to my learned friend's question, you said that you

15 came to Ovcara from the barracks in the third bus. Can you recall what

16 time it was when you set off from the barracks?

17 A. I remember that it was approximately 1.00 p.m.

18 Q. Thank you. You said that the buses stopped in front of the hangar

19 and that you needed ten minutes -- ten minutes passed from the time you

20 arrived until you left the bus. Can you please tell me if the buses

21 emptied one by one and then left, or were they all emptied at the same

22 time?

23 A. The buses were emptied one by one, one after the other.

24 Q. And a bus that was emptied, I assume, would leave and then another

25 one would come in its place. Is that correct?

Page 5813

1 A. Yes, something like that.

2 Q. Thank you. You said in response to my learned friend's question

3 that you estimate that about 300 people were brought to the Ovcara hangar,

4 but you made this assessment by multiplying the number of buses with the

5 number of seats in each bus?

6 A. No, not only by multiplying. This was an estimate -- I mean, I

7 want -- I looked at how many people there were in the hangar and then used

8 this method to get to an approximate number of people who could have been

9 placed in that space.

10 Q. I assume that in the circumstances that you described in the

11 hangar, you were actually not able to count the people, it was just an

12 estimate of yours, wasn't it?

13 A. Well, that was the question, what was my estimate. So it was an

14 estimate, and I explained how I came to that estimate. I was inside and I

15 was also in the bus. I could see in front -- buses in front of me and

16 behind me that were packed, and then in the space itself I saw how many

17 people were inside.

18 Q. Thank you. When you spoke about some people whom you saw at

19 Ovcara, you said that some of them took part in the armed combat, that

20 they were defenders of Vukovar. I wanted to ask you about some people

21 about whom you didn't say anything. So could you please tell us whether

22 Mr. Krizan; Mr. Samardzic, Damjan Samardzic; the gentleman with the

23 nickname Kemo; and Mr. Djukic, Dado Djukic, were the defenders also? Did

24 they take part or were they members of the armed forces that were

25 defending the town on the Croatian side?

Page 5814

1 A. As far as these four are concerned with the exception of Kemo, I

2 did not see if Kemo was involved or where, I can confirm in relation to

3 these other men that they did, indeed, take part in Vukovar's defence,

4 each in their own way.

5 Q. That's why I asked about these four men as a group, just in order

6 to save time. You say at one point your names were recorded by a person

7 in uniform. And having compiled this list, the person left the hangar.

8 Furthermore, you say that inside the hangar you saw a green desk, the sort

9 used in schools. You say that the person who recorded your names

10 approached each and every one of you to ask for information, for personal

11 details. Is that right?

12 A. I mentioned that there was a person who recorded our names, but I

13 don't remember mentioning this person leaving the hangar or that room. It

14 is a fact, however, that this military person compiled a list of all the

15 people inside that room.

16 Q. Fair enough. But what would you say if I put it to you that a

17 number of witnesses claim that the names were recorded by a member of the

18 80th Motorised Brigade from Kragujevac who was wearing an olive-drab

19 uniform and that he was seated at this desk that you have told us about.

20 People approached him and he took their names down. It wasn't he that was

21 going around the hangar approaching people, it was the other way around.

22 What would you say about that?

23 A. Well, it may as well have been like that. I'm telling you about

24 my experience, I'm telling you about how my name was recorded. Maybe some

25 other people's names were recorded in this way, but I simply can't speak

Page 5815

1 about that. I simply don't know.

2 Q. Thank you. You described a person carrying a whistle in the

3 hangar as a rather robust, stout man. When you say said he was stout or

4 big, did you actually mean fat?

5 A. You could put it like that. He was a little on the fat side, of

6 strong build.

7 Q. Aside from this man with a whistle, did you see a lady wearing an

8 olive-drab uniform inside the hangar?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Thank you. Did you know this lady from Vukovar? If so, what was

11 her name?

12 A. Yes, I did. Her name was Gordana Karan, and she was from

13 Sajmiste.

14 Q. She was a resident of Vukovar, wasn't she?

15 A. Another correction, it's not Kadan, it's Karan, K-a-r-a-n. And

16 the answer to your question is: Yes, she was a resident, at least that's

17 what I think.

18 Q. Thank you. Did you also know her family or just her?

19 A. I knew her family generally speaking.

20 Q. Was any other member of her family at Ovcara at the same time you

21 noticed her?

22 A. I didn't notice anybody else, no one from her family.

23 Q. Did she have any brothers? Do you know that?

24 A. I don't think she did.

25 Q. Thank you. You testified in chief that in the section of the

Page 5816

1 hangar in which you were placed there was no agricultural machinery, but

2 there was a room where they might have been -- where there might have been

3 some. Can you please describe where that other section was in relation to

4 the section in which you were detained?

5 A. It was at the far end of the room. If you take the door as a

6 reference point, it was deep down inside the hangar. We were scattered or

7 accommodated, whichever way you prefer, at the other end of the hangar.

8 Q. There were stacks of hay behind you, weren't there?

9 A. Under our feet and, to some extent, behind us, too.

10 Q. What I want to know is: Did you actually see any machinery or did

11 you just believe that there might have been some machinery over in that

12 other section of the hangar?

13 A. A lot of time has passed and it's difficult for me to say. I do

14 seem to remember that I noticed a piece of machinery there at the time,

15 but there's no way I can be positive about it.

16 Q. Thank you. I understand and I don't expect you to say anything

17 that you're not certain about. You did not see a single officer inside

18 the hangar displaying a visible rank, let alone a lieutenant-colonel or a

19 colonel, nor did you ever see a military person of that rank enter the

20 hangar at all. Is that not right?

21 A. Quite right. I did not see any ranks there. No person there had

22 a visibly displayed military rank.

23 Q. Thank you. When you were interviewed as witness in Zagreb in the

24 Kadijevic trial, do you remember stating there that in the middle of the

25 hangar Chetnik paramilitaries were beating people with metal rods,

Page 5817

1 punching them, kicking them? Do you remember stating that sort of thing

2 back then?

3 A. I still remember, yes.

4 Q. Thank you. You testified in chief that people were separated in

5 groups comprising between 10 and 20 people. These groups were then taken

6 to a military vehicle outside every 10 or 15 minutes. You further claim

7 that the first three groups that you saw were taken away by a person in

8 uniform. Now, what I want to know is: Was this person in uniform wearing

9 any white ribbons? Is this something you remember?

10 A. I never said that these people were taken to a military vehicle,

11 and there were no special groups. A column was formed comprising between

12 10 and a maximum of 20 persons, but that's just a ballpark figure. I

13 would say around 10 people in each group were lined up. And the process

14 was monitored by a soldier. I can't say if we -- if he had a white ribbon

15 or not.

16 Q. I imagine you are probably not able to describe his face or his

17 physical appearance, are you?

18 A. It's difficult to visualise now. His physical appearance was

19 average and he was wearing a uniform. It would be less than serious if I

20 tried to attempt to provide a photofit of everybody who was there.

21 Q. Thank you very much. I understand that, but do you at least

22 remember the person's age?

23 A. He may have been about 20 or slightly older.

24 Q. Could it be 30 or 40?

25 A. Certainly not over 30.

Page 5818

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it might be a

3 good idea to go into private session briefly.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Q. Witness, if I were to tell you that certain witnesses who were at

22 Ovcara claim that it took more than an hour to take one group away and

23 then come back and collect the next group, what would you say? You did

24 state, after all, that based on your recollection it took no longer

25 than 10 or 15 minutes, didn't you?

Page 5819

1 A. There's nothing much to say about it, is there? It's a matter of

2 subjective experience. My watch had been shattered or broken, and even

3 regardless of that, time seemed to stand still. The experience of time

4 was subjective for more or less everybody there, and it's largely a matter

5 of personal perspective.

6 Q. Thank you very much. I understand that.

7 I would like to go back briefly to the list that you marked

8 yesterday while testifying in chief. This is Exhibit 258. It was

9 admitted as 258. If one looks at this list of persons, there's one thing

10 that occurs to me. On the 14th of September, 1995, were you not shown

11 another list by the OTP, a list of people who the OTP claim were taken

12 from the hospital to Ovcara and then went missing there?

13 A. That's possible. I would need to look at that list because there

14 was so much searching and inspection going on that I find it very

15 difficult to answer your question.

16 Q. Let's leave that aside for the time being, although I could show

17 you the list, needless to say, I just want to make sure first that it's

18 absolutely necessary. What I think about the markings you made yesterday,

19 the discrepancy between the two lists boils down to two names. One name

20 is Dragan Gavric, and the other name is Drago Gudelj. You did not mark

21 out these two persons back in 1995 as someone you saw at the hospital

22 along the way or at Ovcara itself. What I want to know is: What jogged

23 your memory, since we know for a fact that you did not mark these two

24 people out back in 1995, whereas now you did?

25 MR. SMITH: Objection, Your Honour.

Page 5820

1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

2 MR. SMITH: Just a brief one. In fact, this witness has in the

3 past marked two lists, one with a highlighter and the other with his

4 own -- with his own -- in his own handwriting. And in relation to the one

5 with the highlighter, he did mark the name Dragan Gavric, if we're talking

6 about the same list. So it's a little bit confusing. So it may be better

7 that the list be shown to the witness just to clarify it.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I entirely agree. I was taking a

9 shortcut, as it were, but if it's no good, I'll change tack.

10 Can I have the usher's assistance, please.

11 MR. SMITH: If it may help the Court, the list that has been

12 marked by the witness with the highlighter is 65 ter number 54, and the

13 one that he's -- another list he's marked with his handwriting is in batch

14 number 57. But I think he's referring to list number 54.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I just wanted to know about the two names, not the entire

17 statement, but you can go through the statement now. You can confirm that

18 this is a statement you gave and whether it contains a list of names that

19 you marked.

20 A. I assume that this is a list on which I marked the names of people

21 I had seen, but you have to be more specific about the names you want to

22 know about and why.

23 Q. Thank you. I'll do that, by all means. In relation to

24 Exhibit 258, if you look at this list that you now have in front of you, I

25 notice that you did not mark the following names in the previous list:

Page 5821

1 Dragan Gavric and Drago Gudelj. Have a look, please.

2 A. So what's so contentious about that? I'm not clear about that.

3 Q. Nothing's particularly contentious, but the fact is you did not

4 remember those two names back when you first marked the list, did you?

5 A. Well, if that's what the markings reflect, perhaps I just didn't

6 remember at the time. Perhaps I just omitted at the time to mark their

7 names without necessarily wanting to leave them out.

8 Q. I understand that. But this is what my question was really

9 about: Yesterday you marked names on the list provided by my learned

10 friend and you marked two more names than you marked on the original list

11 back in 1995. That's my question.

12 A. I think you should have a psychiatrist or a psychologist answer

13 that question because it's more about how human memory works. It's easier

14 to forget facts than it sometimes appears to us. I don't know what else

15 to say. Some things I remember, some things I just can't. Some things I

16 mislay in my head or forget without necessarily wanting to.

17 Q. So this is a case of spontaneous recollection without being

18 prompted by anyone? Am I to conclude that?

19 A. I remember what I remember. My memory is my memory. No one

20 prompted me to remember anything in particular.

21 Q. Thank you very much. I shall not be dwelling on this list

22 anymore.

23 MR. SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

25 MR. SMITH: I was just wondering whether -- because there are two

Page 5822

1 lists in existence, just for re-examination purposes, if the ERN number of

2 the list that was shown to this witness could be recorded on the

3 transcript.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] By all means. This is a list served

5 on us by my learned friends from the OTP, and the reference is, together

6 with the accompanying statement, 00338315 through 00338325.

7 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Q. Sir, you testified in detail about jumping off the back of the

10 vehicle and running away. The moment you jumped off that vehicle -- and

11 then you reached this place called Ceric to get some water. Would it not

12 be a fair assessment to say that it took a minimum of two and a maximum of

13 four hours between the point of time when you jumped off that vehicle and

14 the time you eventually arrived?

15 A. It took several hours for me to leave the area; that much is

16 certain. It certainly took me at least two or three or four hours from

17 the time I jumped off of the military vehicle to run through the

18 cornfields and take a number of paths and roads in order to eventually

19 reach the village of Ceric.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have Exhibit 156 on our

22 screens. If that could be run up for us, please.

23 Q. And if you could please use that to mark the trajectory of your

24 own journey from the place where you jumped off the vehicle to the village

25 of Ceric. I understand you can't be absolutely accurate, but please do

Page 5823

1 the best you can. I think the scale should be fine for you to roughly

2 mark the trajectory for us. We don't need to zoom out. If we can get a

3 general view, I think that would be really helpful. Thank you.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Thank you very much. So this line marks your journey. The

6 interruptions are just on account of the pen you're using. You don't mean

7 those to indicate that you broke your journey at those precise points, do

8 you? Thank you.

9 The village of Ceric, can you tell me how far it is from Marinci,

10 if you know, of course.

11 A. Say about a couple of kilometres.

12 Q. Thank you. The same distance from Zidine, right?

13 A. What is Zidine? I don't understand the question.

14 Q. Zidine is a place on the road from Bogdanovci to Vinkovci. I

15 apologise, close to Nustar.

16 A. I'm sorry, I've never heard of Zidine.

17 Q. Thank you. And what about Nustar, how far is Nustar from the

18 village of Ceric?

19 A. One to two kilometres.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

22 the map into evidence.

23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 263, Your Honours.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5824

1 Q. Can you please tell us if at the time you knew that Nustar was in

2 the hands of the Croatian defence forces?

3 A. I didn't know about that.

4 Q. Thank you. You told us how you reached Ceric, how you tried to

5 get water, and how you were captured. What I'm interested in is whether

6 you were interrogated there by the persons who captured you about who you

7 are, where you're from, and so on?

8 A. Yes. Of course they asked me who I was, where I was coming from.

9 Q. And what did you tell them?

10 A. First I told them that I was leaving Vukovar. I was going in

11 the -- I was going to join my family.

12 Q. And what did you tell them after that?

13 A. After that I told them what was going on. I told them all I knew

14 and all I was able to tell them about that period.

15 Q. And after that they handed you over to the military police in

16 Stari Jankovci and that's where you questioned by a captain in the

17 military police. I think that that's what you said. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, the soldiers who had practically captured me took me to their

19 command post, and after a while spent there where I was abused. I was

20 transferred to Stari Jankovci, where I was questioned by the captain, the

21 JNA captain.

22 Q. Can you please tell me if the captain knew about your activities

23 in Vukovar at the time you were brought in and did he know where you were

24 coming from?

25 A. Well, that's a question for him, not for me. I don't know what

Page 5825

1 someone knows or doesn't know. It's a little bit of a strangely

2 formulated question.

3 Q. Well, I agree. But I will ask you in this way. Did he ask you

4 what you did in Vukovar and how you reached Ceric?

5 A. Yes, he asked me what I did in Vukovar and what was going on

6 there. And I laid my cards on the table, as they say, told him all the

7 things that I did. And I provided a complete statement to him.

8 Q. Thank you very much. But you didn't tell him that you had come to

9 Ceric from Ovcara, did you?

10 A. Yes, that's correct. I didn't mention that part.

11 Q. Thank you. And you indicated where the minefields were and you

12 showed him where you had buried all the documents relating to the

13 minefields. Did you go and show them where this place where the

14 documentation was buried or did they go and get that themselves?

15 A. I didn't tell him where my documents were, but I explained, based

16 on my recollection, where the mines were located throughout the town,

17 based on my recollection.

18 Q. Thank you. I obviously misunderstood what you said. Can you

19 please tell me how it came about that members of the JNA found these

20 documents of yours. Did you tell them or did they happen to find them in

21 some other way?

22 A. They couldn't have found the documents by themselves. I told them

23 about it because one of the soldiers during the interrogation said if I

24 had any records of it, where did I leave that.

25 Q. Yes, I understand. This staff sergeant, can you please tell me

Page 5826

1 where you were when he asked you about it.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, warrant officer, not

3 staff sergeant.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This interrogation took place in

5 Sremska Mitrovica. It was conducted by the JNA warrant officer.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Thank you. After this interrogation in Stari Jankovci, you said

8 that the military police transferred you to the Sid police station. Is

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, these were the premises of the

11 Ministry of Internal Affairs in Sid.

12 Q. You told us that there you were questioned by a person wearing

13 civilian clothes. Did he introduce himself to you?

14 A. As far as I can recall, nobody introduced themselves. He didn't

15 either.

16 Q. I'm asking you because you were brought to Sid by the military

17 police as a member of the Vukovar defence. You were arrested because you

18 took part in the conflict and, I assume, because of what you were charged

19 with later. So what I would like to ask is: Is it possible that this

20 person in civilian clothes about whom you assumed was a civilian inspector

21 was perhaps from some other structures? How do you know that he was a

22 civilian police inspector?

23 A. As far as my arrest, it's questionable whether it was legal or

24 not. But obviously I was detained by these forces. Whether this was

25 rightful or not, it's another matter. But as far as that man is

Page 5827

1 concerned, it was my personal conclusion that perhaps he was some kind of

2 investigator or an inspector, a MUP inspector. However, I cannot really

3 corroborate that in any way.

4 Q. After this conversation with this person, the military police took

5 you to Sremska Mitrovica. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. Me and also the people that I came with.

7 Q. Yes, thank you. You already told us about that. You also told us

8 about the conversation you had with this civilian -- or this person

9 dressed in civilian clothing at the police station. What I would like to

10 know is whether he was the first one to mention Ovcara and your presence

11 there or were you the one who mentioned it first?

12 A. Well, he made that suggestion in order that I would perhaps tell

13 him a little bit more about that -- or rather, he was trying, in a way, to

14 find out from me something more about it. So it didn't come from me

15 first.

16 Q. Thank you. You told us how this conversation ended. What I would

17 like to know is whether you, until the time you left for Sremska Mitrovica

18 during any of the interrogations, did you provide any statement, sign a

19 statement, was a statement drafted in your presence, in the presence of

20 these officials as well? Do you know anything about that?

21 A. Are you talking about the time before Mitrovica?

22 Q. Yes. I'm talking about these interrogations you had before

23 Sremska Mitrovica, so I'm talking about, Ceric, Stari Jankovci, Sid.

24 A. The only thing that was written were the notes or the record of

25 the captain in Stari Jankovci, but I cannot recall if I signed anything or

Page 5828

1 not.

2 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me whether you provided and

3 signed a statement in Sremska Mitrovica.

4 A. Yes, I did give a statement there and I think that I also signed

5 it.

6 Q. Were you questioned by this warrant officer the whole time or were

7 there any other people there during the time you were there?

8 A. There were other interrogators who came from the military

9 investigative prison from Belgrade. They also conducted interrogations.

10 Q. Thank you. Do you recall whether you were interrogated by an

11 officer there, a JNA officer, whose name was Colonel Branko?

12 A. I can't remember that -- actually, I don't remember names. There

13 was an officer there who was interrogating me, but I don't know if this

14 was Colonel Branko or not.

15 Q. Thank you very much. If it's not asking too much of you, do you

16 recall that officer? Could you describe the officer who was interrogating

17 you? Could you describe his build, for example?

18 A. He was of average height, perhaps with a slightly darker

19 complexion. I don't know. He didn't have any particular characteristics.

20 Obviously he was an officer. He told me himself that he was -- he came to

21 that area after the fall.

22 Q. Do you remember what sort of hair that officer had and can you

23 tell me whether you thought him as being thin or fat?

24 A. No, he wasn't fat, certainly not. He was of heavier build, but he

25 wasn't either skinny or fat. Perhaps he had brown hair, but I really

Page 5829

1 cannot be certain about that.

2 Q. Thank you for your efforts to describe him. Can you also maybe

3 give us his age, roughly, at the time?

4 A. Between 30 and 40 years of age, I assume.

5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether you were asked about the

6 events at Ovcara in Mitrovica?

7 A. No. Nobody in Mitrovica asked me about Ovcara.

8 Q. Thank you. You told us that after that you were transferred to

9 the military investigative prison in Belgrade and proceedings were

10 conducted against you which were never completed. I think that that's

11 what you said. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes, there were proceedings, but I really don't know whether they

13 were ever completed or not. I don't have any information about that.

14 Q. Thank you. Well, that wasn't the gist of my question anyway.

15 What I would like to know is that whether you were treated properly at the

16 Belgrade prison. Were you given the right to have a lawyer?

17 A. As time went along, finally we did -- or we were represented by

18 defence counsel sent by the Republic of Croatia. And he was covering me

19 and the other people who were there.

20 Q. So you were in contact with him and, I assume, also with assigned

21 defence counsel who were assigned to you before that?

22 A. Well, it was hard for me to say. I don't know who got in touch

23 with whom. The proceedings were strange from the beginning of that

24 so-called trial or the proceedings as a whole against us who had to go

25 through them.

Page 5830

1 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me whether at the time, did you

2 tell any of your defence counsel, whether your assigned defence there or

3 the ones sent by the Republic of Croatia, about the events in Ovcara? Did

4 you tell either of them anything about that at the time?

5 A. No. That was not a topic of conversation with them at the time.

6 I did not talk about that with any of the people there at that time.

7 Q. Thank you very much. I have another question relating to

8 Sremska Mitrovica. When you were there, did representatives of the

9 Red Cross come there? Were you registered by representatives of the

10 Red Cross while you were there?

11 A. Yes, we were registered by the International Red Cross sometime in

12 December.

13 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me the following. You were

14 exchanged in August 1992. Do you know who was involved in the

15 negotiations relating to this exchange? Do you have any information about

16 that?

17 A. I don't know anything specific. All I know is that this was the

18 largest and, let's say, the biggest all-for-all exchange. As for who

19 negotiated, who took part in that, I don't know that.

20 Q. Thank you, sir, about your detailed answers.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

22 questions for this witness.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Tapuskovic, or would you like to have the break

24 now?

25 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It doesn't matter to me, Your

Page 5831

1 Honours. It's up to you. Perhaps we can ask the witness if he would like

2 to go on a break. He has been responding to questions already for an hour

3 and a half, but we can also tell the witness that the break would be taken

4 in ten minutes anyway.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think I would agree to go on

6 a break.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Having had that democratic determination, we will

8 have a break now and resume at five minutes or just after five minutes

9 to 4.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Tapuskovic.

13 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Tapuskovic:

15 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Mira Tapuskovic, and I am a

16 Defence counsel, or one of the Defence counsel for the accused, Mr. Radic.

17 I'm going to be putting questions to you now. I will try not to repeat

18 the ground covered by my colleagues or my colleague Mr. Vasic. I will

19 only dwell on something already covered in case I need any additional

20 explanations.

21 The day before yesterday when my learned friend from the

22 Prosecution asked you a question about the weapons you had in Vukovar or,

23 rather, which the defenders in Vukovar had. Do you recall that?

24 A. Yes, that was discussed.

25 Q. You responded to the question that besides light weapons or

Page 5832

1 side-arms -- perhaps I'm making a mistake in this qualification, but I

2 think you said you had light weapons, side-arms, and that you also had two

3 or three tanks and two or three guns. Am I remembering correctly what you

4 stated the other day?

5 A. Yes, this was mentioned. Two or three tanks were captured in the

6 fighting and the two guns or several guns, perhaps, we had from before.

7 But I really can't say much more than that.

8 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I cannot hear the interpretation,

9 so I don't know when I can start putting my question to the witness, but

10 never mind. I will try to stick to a comfortable pace as far as the

11 interpretation is concerned.

12 Q. You said that those two or three guns were captured by the JNA,

13 they were captured from the JNA -- actually, I'm talking about the tanks.

14 And then you said you didn't know where the guns were from. Do you

15 remember if the Vukovar defence forces at the time also had anti-aircraft

16 guns?

17 A. These are difficult questions for me. I one a commander of the

18 defence or in some higher rank, so I really don't have much information

19 about these matters and I'm not really able to answer these questions.

20 Q. Very well. I just felt that you as a person who had spent a lot

21 of time on the streets of Vukovar and was in contact with the activities

22 of the defence forces, you would be able to respond to a question like

23 this. But let me go on. If you don't know exactly if there were any

24 anti-aircraft guns there, do you perhaps know if there was a unit like

25 that in the territory of Vukovar?

Page 5833

1 A. I assume that you followed my testimony and then know that I

2 joined up much later than all of the events from the beginning that were

3 occurring in the defence of Vukovar. I don't really know much about that,

4 but I can make assertions or I can give you my opinions. But I'm not able

5 to make things up here and talk about what I don't know.

6 Q. Very well. I'm going to put the following question to you. On a

7 couple of occasions you mentioned that at Ovcara in the hangar you saw

8 Vladimir Djukic. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. I'm going to put a direct question to you. Do you have

11 information that he was at the head of the anti-aircraft unit of the

12 Vukovar defence forces?

13 A. I don't have information to that effect, no.

14 Q. Thank you. A few days ago we had a witness here who was also from

15 Vukovar, just like yourself.

16 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] For my learned friends from the

17 Prosecution, that is page 3541 of the transcript of the proceedings.

18 Q. That witness told us that there was artillery support from

19 Vinkovci. Do you have information about that?

20 A. I have just a little bit of information. There was some support

21 from that sector, but again I say that I wasn't at that high level of

22 command so that I would be able to tell you anything that was of key

23 importance and that was absolutely certain.

24 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Your answer is quite adequate. In

25 order to avoid repeating things that were already said yesterday and

Page 5834

1 today, you told us that you were summoned to the municipal building for

2 some sort of meeting and that this meeting was attended by about 50 people

3 and that an agreement was being reached on how to approach the defence of

4 Vukovar. Is that correct?

5 A. It was a meeting relating to all of the events that were becoming

6 more and more complex, and more needed to be done to assist the defence of

7 the town. So that was the purpose and the sense of that meeting.

8 Q. You knew that mobilisation was being carried out. You said that

9 it was ethical, moral, and legal, and that it was implemented for the

10 whole area of the Vukovar municipality. You said that. Am I correct?

11 A. I don't know about this term "implemented." It was proclaimed. I

12 don't know to what degree it was implemented. I'm not sure whether that's

13 the proper term, but there was a -- a mobilisation that was proclaimed for

14 that whole area.

15 Q. A mobilisation had been declared, a general mobilisation, you're

16 quite right. Maybe the expression I used was not correct. Did you

17 receive a call-up in writing or was it over the radio, the public media,

18 the TV that you were called to this meeting?

19 A. I was told to come to the meeting.

20 Q. People knew at the military recruitment office that your reserve

21 rank was the second lieutenant of the former JNA, didn't they?

22 A. I assume people knew, yes.

23 Q. So it was at this time that this unit was set up which was known

24 as a blasters' intervention unit. Am I right?

25 A. I'm not sure if it was actually called an intervention unit, but a

Page 5835

1 new unit was set up and restructured. The unit was reorganised, as it

2 were.

3 Q. I used the expression "blasters' intervention unit" because this

4 is something I read in one of your statements and that was how you,

5 yourself, described the unit in your statement to the county court back in

6 1996. It is immaterial what the name of the unit really was, therefore I

7 will not go any further into that but thank you for your answer.

8 Regardless of this, you became a member of the 204th Vukovar

9 Brigade. In 2003 you were granted membership when this brigade was, as it

10 were, legalised by the Croatian authorities?

11 A. No. I believe that I was classified as a member of the National

12 Guards Corps, at least that's what the first and earliest documents that I

13 received about my own status indicated.

14 Q. Thank you. I will now ask you some questions about the work of

15 your group. I won't be asking you questions about the procedure of

16 mine-laying or booby-trapping itself, because I think my learned friend

17 Mr. Vasic has already covered that sufficiently.

18 You say that Mr. Borkovic was the one who gave orders to your

19 group. His nickname was Mladi Jastreb. Is that right?

20 A. You're right to some extent, but there's one thing you need to

21 understand. At first there was Stari Jastreb, and he was at one point

22 succeeded by Mladi Jastreb. First you had Stari Jastreb, who was the

23 original commander; and back then Mladi Jastreb was his deputy. Jastreb

24 was in charge of us, he was our commander. I don't know what appears so

25 questionable about that to you.

Page 5836

1 Q. There's nothing questionable at all about all these terms, but can

2 you please confirm for me that both Mile Dedakovic and Branko Borkovic

3 were called Jastreb 1 and Jastreb 2 or Stari Jastreb and Mladi Jastreb

4 respectively.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, "Stari Jastreb" and "Mladi

6 Jastreb" translate as "old hawk" and "young hawk" respectively.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure what you mean. There

8 was a Stari Jastreb and there was a Mladi Jastreb. But sometimes the

9 word "Jastreb" itself sufficed and one didn't need to specify. Whenever

10 one said "Jastreb," one knew immediately that our command was on the line

11 and no further specification was needed.

12 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Thank you. You have just replied that it was quite sufficient to

14 utter the word "Jastreb," whereby you have already answered my next

15 question, which was a question about the existence of a Jastreb 3. But

16 let's leave that aside for the time being.

17 There is one particular place that I wish to ask you about. I

18 want to know whether that place was booby-trapped by using anti-personnel

19 or anti-tank mines. I'm talking about the fly-over near the Kuplijanacka

20 Road [phoen] -- Bogdanovci Road? Did your group booby-trap that area?

21 A. There's no fly-over there, at least that I know of that.

22 Q. On page 5788 yesterday you claim you didn't know where the mines

23 were obtained that turned up in your storage rooms, nor were you aware of

24 their exact quantity. Is that a fair reflection of what you stated?

25 A. Yes, that's right. I had no idea where the mines had been

Page 5837

1 obtained, how they got to be there, or how many. So, yes, it's a fair

2 statement on your part.

3 Q. I'll try to refresh your memory about something in your testimony.

4 I will try to avoid having you read that portion. It would be great if

5 you could just remember it without being prompted.

6 At the Belgrade trial when you were an accused you said that there

7 had been over 40.000 mines laid in Vukovar, randomly as well as in an

8 organised way, and that some mines were laid by people spontaneously, as

9 it were, without the relevant orders being given. Do you remember that

10 portion of your testimony some years ago?

11 A. If that is what I said, that only means that a lot of minelaying

12 had been done before I arrived on the scene and after. This is when

13 accusations were leveled against me and my group; we were the ones who

14 stood trial.

15 Q. Yes. You said this once you were cautioned during the trial that

16 you were not obliged to release any statements or even offer a defence.

17 Do you remember this as something that you said without being prompted to

18 say anything like that by the person examining you?

19 A. I don't remember that anyone informed us that we were not obliged

20 to answer the questions asked. I remember the trial, but the figures

21 strike me as somewhat arbitrary. They're ballpark figures, if anything.

22 They're just meant to give a general idea of the magnitude of everything

23 that had gone on before I first arrived there.

24 Q. On the first day of your examination-in-chief and also while

25 cross-examined by Mr. Vasic, you stated that you and your group had laid

Page 5838

1 about 1.000 mines. Is that right?

2 A. That's right. It's a rough assessment, but there are documents to

3 show how many mines exactly. I'm just not sure how that should be

4 helpful.

5 Q. You say that you only laid mines along the confrontation lines and

6 you also said, when prompted by my learned friend Mr. Vasic, that you laid

7 no mines in private homes or private gardens. Is that right?

8 A. You are neglecting the nature of the clashes in the area. The

9 entire town was turned into a battle-field, and at this point there were

10 no private homes or private gardens. The entire place was a battle-field.

11 Life itself became a battle-field. I'm not sure what, under the

12 circumstances, your mind would define as lawful or unlawful in the area.

13 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we now please

14 show a brief video clip. This is an excerpt from an already existing

15 exhibit, Exhibit 136. This is a 16-second video recording. For the

16 benefit of my learned friends, this is DO video V000-4593. If that can

17 please be played for us.


19 [Videotape played]

20 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. As I said, it's a very brief video, no longer than 16 seconds. I

22 hope you played close attention. This video was filmed by a foreign

23 journalist, who was also heard by this Trial Chamber. While watching this

24 video, did you perhaps notice someone wearing a uniform poking around

25 among some leaves on the ground with some sort of a stick in a bid to

Page 5839

1 locate a mine?

2 A. Yes, I followed the video closely, but I'm not sure what it

3 represents.

4 Q. It's a very short film. We'll play it again, and if I could

5 please ask you to pay close attention to the location and what exactly

6 goes on.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Sir, this obviously takes place in the town of Vukovar itself in

10 one of Vukovar's neighbourhoods, in a settled area. Is that not right?

11 A. What leads you to conclude that this particular bit of action

12 takes place in Vukovar?

13 Q. I introduced this by saying that this is an exhibit that was

14 already admitted. It was an exhibit tendered by the OTP, and it's about

15 what went on in the town of Vukovar itself, which is not something that

16 you necessarily know about and there's no reason why you should.

17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since I have no

18 intention of asking the witness any questions about this video, what I

19 would seek to do is tender this portion of the video into evidence; or,

20 alternatively, I can leave it to the Trial Chamber to decide, since the

21 longer version, the entire version, has already been tendered and admitted

22 as Exhibit 136.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I don't think we need it as an exhibit; we

24 have it already.

25 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour, I

Page 5840

1 entirely agree.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Can you tell the Chamber what is your point about

3 showing the video at this point of time?

4 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while testifying in

5 chief and while being cross-examined by Mr. Vasic, the present witness

6 spoke about mines being scattered along the front line. He also spoke

7 about the fact that no mines were laid in gardens belonging to private

8 homes or anywhere near any private homes. What we see in this short

9 footage is that there were mines laid there covered by leaves and dirt and

10 that mines were, after all, laid in areas between private homes, houses,

11 and in backyards, and people's private gardens.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the witness might like to comment on that, if

13 that's the point of this. I must say I had a different understanding of

14 the effect of his evidence, but I won't say what I understood. Let the

15 witness deal with the issue.

16 I think the point being put to you that if this was in fact a film

17 taken in Vukovar at the time, does this not reveal mines having been laid

18 in a domestic garden? And if so, does that call into question what you

19 were saying about where mines were laid?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there is no essential

21 discrepancy between this and what I was saying. Mines were laid along any

22 portion of the confrontation line, and sometimes the line ran between

23 houses and combat would break out in settled areas. I don't think there

24 is necessarily a contradiction to my previous testimony.

25 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you have ruled that

Page 5841

1 there is no need tender this video again, and I have no further questions

2 in relation to it. I do have one question left about this subject matter.

3 Q. Witness, you say that other blasters units and groups existed.

4 Are you familiar with a group called nightingale or another group called

5 mine 1 or yet another group, mine 2?

6 A. No, these all sound unfamiliar.

7 Q. Let me try to jog your memory. On the 11th of August, 1992, at a

8 trial you talked about the existence of these blasters units or groups --

9 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And if I could have the usher's

10 assistance for a moment, please.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters couldn't hear counsel.

12 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. The last paragraph, you will see that it's highlighted in orange.

14 The next page, the first paragraph, page 12 --

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters couldn't hear the last part of

16 what counsel said.

17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. This is the military court in Belgrade, a trial where you and two

19 other persons were accused. That was back in 1992. Charges were brought

20 against you and two other persons.

21 [Defence counsel confer]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This reference to something called

23 nightingale here, this is not a blasters unit. This was a defence

24 position. The reference was to a particular defence position.

25 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5842

1 Q. Maybe I misinterpreted the term "nightingale." Thank you for

2 shedding light on that.

3 Can you now please go to page 12, the highlighted portion. Sir,

4 can you please go through the paragraph that is highlighted in orange.

5 Please read it aloud.

6 A. Of course I can. Should I start?

7 Q. Please do so.

8 A. "Otherwise we were the only blasters group in the area. Before us

9 there were other blasters units, mine 1 and mine 2. Mine was called

10 mine."

11 Can I tell you what I think about this whole thing?

12 Q. If you could just hold a second, sir, it's because of the

13 interpretation and I have to make a correction there. I have to set you

14 right, as it were. You misread one word in the second line, and could you

15 please read the entire paragraph again for the sake of the interpreters

16 and for your own sake. You can go ahead, please.

17 A. Fine.

18 "Otherwise we were the only blasters group in that area, but before

19 us there were other blasters groups called mine 1 and mine 2. My group

20 was called 'mine.'"

21 Q. Thank you. What's your comment now? Back in 1992 at this trial

22 you indicated with a degree of accuracy the names of those blasters

23 groups, which would seem to suggest that they existed at the same time,

24 right?

25 A. Well, it's quite obvious that this was stated wherever it was

Page 5843

1 stated, but because I had to re-construct the history of my own activities

2 there, I can tell you as follows. There was a commander in charge of the

3 unit before I came along. I assume and I remember that he told me

4 something about this. These names, mine 1 and mine 2, I don't think are

5 accurate. I think it was Kupa 1 and Kupa 2. I can't be sure about it,

6 though. But what I said about there being booby-trapping and blocking and

7 mines being laid before I came along does not strike me as very noteworthy

8 or special.

9 Q. Maybe that's what you think, sir, but you also suggested that any

10 minelaying done outside your own group was not done in an organised

11 manner. What I am trying to demonstrate here is that apparently there

12 were other organised groups, just like yours, and these groups had names.

13 And as you have just told us, there was yet another blasters group, a

14 unit, that was commonly referred to as Kupa, K-u-p-a. Thank you for

15 answering the question, sir.

16 You said there was a great deal of trouble in relation to food

17 supplies during the fighting in Vukovar?

18 A. Yes, but I would like to go back briefly to the previous question

19 because I don't think we have sufficiently clarified what had been going

20 on with minelaying before I came along. I think you brushed it off too

21 quickly, in a way, without touching on the essence of what exactly

22 happened.

23 Q. Sir, for my purposes what has been said is more than sufficient.

24 I have received all of my answers, and no further information on this

25 subject is requested for the time being. But you are yet to be

Page 5844

1 cross-examined by another counsel and maybe there'll be further

2 opportunities for you to say what you know.

3 Let's go back now to the next topic that I wanted to cover with

4 you. I would like to go back to the question that I put to you -- or

5 actually, to the remark that during the examination-in-chief by the

6 Prosecution you stated that there were problems in supplying Vukovar

7 during those three months, September, October, and mid-November, until the

8 fall of Vukovar, there were problems in supplying Vukovar with food. Is

9 that correct?

10 A. How could there not be difficulties in a town that was being hit

11 from all sides by numerous weapons? In a town that had been cut --

12 where -- where electricity had been cut, water had been cut, and where it

13 was so dangerous, in terms of survival, that this even is not something

14 that would have to be explained here.

15 Q. I agree with you that it was difficult to move around the town in

16 view of what you stated today, that at least 40.000 -- or approximately

17 40.000 mines were laid in the town. What I'm interested now is the

18 problem with the food. You had to leave some corridors for the food

19 supply of Vukovar, and these corridors had to be accessible and mine-free.

20 Is this correct?

21 A. Your thinking is a little bit strange, but we were not laying down

22 mines in the town, we were doing it on the outskirts of town in order to

23 booby-trap that area to prevent the enemy from breaking through. That was

24 the purpose of booby-trapping and laying obstacles. Life went on within

25 Vukovar. However, it was being supplied from the inside. It lived from

Page 5845

1 the inside. People who participated and lived through that can of course

2 tell you more about that, but of course, needless to say, the conditions

3 of survival were very difficult.

4 Q. What I want to ask you is the following: Do you know that during

5 those three months in Vukovar, regardless of the fact that the approaches

6 were mined - and you indicated this on the map that you marked yesterday -

7 food and medicines were still being brought in. Are you familiar with

8 this information or with this fact?

9 A. Not to the extent that you would think. The routes, even if they

10 existed, they were not actual roads. These were side roads. These were

11 paths through cornfields. Alternative routes were used, sometimes even

12 from the air. So we're not talking about just regular transport and roads

13 or normal conditions; we're talking about conditions in a state of war.

14 Q. What would you say if I were to tell you that the Yugoslav

15 People's Army on several occasions made it possible that food supplies

16 reach Vukovar and that these deliveries were recorded in the diaries or

17 the log-book of the Guards Brigade? Are you aware of this?

18 A. No. I'm not aware of this. Why would I be aware of this? The

19 other thing is that what I know is that there were cease-fires but the

20 conflict still went on, so all it boiled down to was some kind of

21 psychology or second-guessing.

22 Q. But the cease-fires were also implemented in order to facilitate

23 food and medicine supplies, and these supplies arrived by some other

24 routes, not through cornfields. Does that sound logical to you?

25 A. We're not talking about conclusions here but about events, and

Page 5846

1 what took place was that there was constant shelling. It never stopped.

2 We're not talking about any cease-fires. There was nothing like that.

3 There was constant fighting; there were no breaks or interruptions. All

4 that went on, the life and everything else, went on under war conditions

5 and under constant shelling, day and night.

6 Q. Would you then agree with me that if you say that the shelling

7 went on day and night and that on the first day during the

8 examination-in-chief you said that the town was hit by tens of thousands -

9 and you even said hundreds of thousands - of shells, would you accept the

10 possibility that a large number of mines out of those 40.000 mines that

11 were laid down in the Vukovar territory or along the front lines were

12 detonated in this shelling and that there was large destruction inflicted

13 on the town, amongst other reasons, also because of the way the town was

14 mined in the way it was?

15 MR. SMITH: Objection, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

17 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, that question contains a number of

18 propositions which the witness hasn't agreed to. And firstly, in relation

19 to the 40.000 mines, I think he said that number wasn't necessary an

20 accurate number but reflected the general magnitude of some of the

21 minelaying. And he also hasn't testified to the fact that mines -- of the

22 way the town was mined. He testified to the fact that mines were laid on

23 the outskirts of the town and as the confrontation lines moved in, then so

24 did the minelaying, but I think a number of those propositions are not

25 right and make it a confusing question for the witness.

Page 5847

1 JUDGE PARKER: I think, though, the end result of the question was

2 clear enough, which was in essence: Wasn't a lot of the town damaged by

3 the explosion of mines that had been laid by the defenders, if I

4 understood Ms. Tapuskovic correctly, and I think the witness can deal with

5 that proposition.

6 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I can say and add to this is

9 that this construction is not technically impossible. Anybody who is

10 versed in explosive devices would know that during shelling it's possible

11 that explosions occur. However, in this case it really doesn't make sense

12 because these mines that we're talking about now were laid down along --

13 during a certain long period of time. And the shells that I'm talking

14 about happened in the initial phase, maybe during the first few days, when

15 an indescribable amount of ammunition was fired. I couldn't or anyone

16 else couldn't count how many shells fell in the very beginning of the

17 siege. I'm talking about the 24th or the 25th of August, 1991. So to

18 derive such a construct from what I said doesn't really make too much

19 sense. Scandalous.

20 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours,

21 because of the confusion, but the devices on my right side were not

22 working properly. So I was not actually receiving the whole

23 interpretation at the right time. Very well.

24 Q. In any case you responded to the question that I put to you. I

25 have one more question in that regard. The population that you said was

Page 5848

1 in shelters, can people who are in shelters differentiate between mine

2 explosions, no matter how they explode, regardless of whether a shell that

3 fell exploded the device or it exploded because a animal tripped on it or

4 something else? Can they be certain that a certain sound is a sound made

5 by a shell? Did you understand what I am trying to say? Can a person in

6 a shelter differentiate in the sound made by an exploding shell or an

7 exploding mine? I'm talking about an average person.

8 A. I understand your question and the attempt to try to confuse those

9 who are listening. I did mention that these shelters were inside the town

10 of Vukovar and were far from the places where there were clashes. So any

11 person in the shelter would easily know that we were talking about

12 incoming shells, not mines that had been laid down and now that they were

13 exploding. In this case, this was not possible. Shells were dropping

14 only from the sky. It was not possible to activate mines there because

15 there were none there. I mentioned before that all the shelters were

16 within the town. They were not out in the places where there were clashes

17 and where mines were laid down.

18 Q. Thank you. We're going to move on from the topic of mines and

19 shelling. We're going to move to something else now. We're going to talk

20 about the events in the hospital. You said that you heard in some way

21 that there would be an evacuation and you set off for the hospital

22 together with your parents. Is this correct?

23 A. Yes. Either somebody brought the news or somehow it spread. It

24 was disseminated. We found out in some way that an evacuation was being

25 prepared, the possibility to leave that area.

Page 5849

1 Q. You said here that when you came to the hospital approximately at

2 midday, so I make my conclusion that this was around noon, and when you

3 came in front of the hospital you could see an armoured vehicle where

4 there was a major and a lieutenant there?

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand what the

6 witness said.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand the question.

8 Please, could you repeat the question.

9 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. You told my learned friend from the Prosecution, and also

11 yesterday in response to a question by my learned friend Mr. Vasic, you

12 said that around noon an armoured vehicle arrived in front of the hospital

13 bearing a major and a lieutenant. Is this correct?

14 A. Yes, that is correct. I was just confused by the abbreviation you

15 moved, BOV, for the armoured vehicle. But I understand what you meant to

16 say, Borbeno Vozilo, armoured vehicle that arrived in front of the

17 hospital bearing this officer of the JNA.

18 Q. Thank you. I thought that you would know what a BOV was.

19 I just wanted to remind you of the statement that you gave to the

20 Tribunal investigators in 1995. I will help you to remember, and I hope

21 you remember - if not, I'm going to show you the statement you gave to the

22 investigators - that you stated that the face of the person that was on

23 that armoured combat vehicle was something that you recall very well and

24 that it was etched in your memory and that you would recognise the person

25 if you saw anything that would remind you of that person. Do you remember

Page 5850

1 saying that?

2 A. Yes, yes, I remember the person and I stand by what I said. I

3 remember that face to this very day.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask

6 for another brief video footage to be shown. This one is 93 minutes --

7 seconds long.

8 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, interpreter's correction.

9 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] 23 seconds long and it's from the

10 R65 ter list and Exhibit number 312, and it bears the number V000-687. I

11 would like to ask the witness to listen very carefully to what is said in

12 these 23 seconds.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Sir, do you want us to play this clip again? These are very short

16 clips.

17 A. Yes, please.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Sir, the vehicle that you see in this clip, is that the type of

21 vehicle you saw that day at noon in front of the Vukovar Hospital?

22 A. It's possible that it was that vehicle, but the person in the

23 vehicle, the major, seems to be that person that we were talking about.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 5851

1 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have this clip

2 exhibited? We would like to tender it into evidence because the witness

3 said that that was the person whom he saw in front of the hospital that

4 day.

5 MR. SMITH: Just an objection, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

7 MR. SMITH: Just for the record, I think he said it seems to be

8 but not that it was the person.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 264.

11 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Sir, now we're going to discuss the events at Ovcara. I would

13 like to take you back to what you said a few days ago here, according to

14 the transcript. This was on page 5728, line 12. I am giving the

15 reference in order to assist my learned friends from the Prosecution.

16 You said that when you came to Ovcara there were many people in

17 front of the hangar, about 50 people or more. Is this correct?

18 A. Yes, but it meant -- it included the personnel, the military and

19 the paramilitary personnel who were there.

20 Q. Very well. The military and the paramilitary personnel. Do you

21 also recall stating on page 5734 that at that time in the hangar when you

22 entered it there were many locals as well as people who did not come from

23 the Vukovar area? Do you recall saying that?

24 A. Yes, I do. We talked about that.

25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether you saw members of the TO

Page 5852

1 units in front of the hangar and in the hangar on that day when you

2 entered the hangar?

3 A. How do you think that I would be able to so easily differentiate

4 between reserve forces, Chetniks, and tell who belonged to which

5 formation?

6 Q. I'm just asking you whether you saw them in front of and inside,

7 but if you're not able to tell us that then very well. That's not a

8 problem.

9 What I would like to ask you now is: When you were getting out of

10 the bus and when you were approaching the hangar, did you perhaps see

11 parked vehicles parked near or around the hangar, any kind of parked

12 vehicles?

13 A. Perhaps there were a number of vehicles parked in front, but I

14 really cannot be sure about it.

15 As for your previous question, of course there were members of the

16 JNA in front of the hangar and in the hangar itself, just to complete that

17 answer.

18 Q. It's not a question of completing the answer. I was not asking

19 you about members of the JNA; I was asking you solely about members of the

20 Territorial Defence. But let us continue.

21 You said that in the hangar you saw Stanko Duvnjak and Milan

22 Grezo. Is this correct? Should I repeat my question?

23 A. No, no. You don't need to repeat it, but we need to go back to

24 this question. The JNA included the Territorial Defence, so you are

25 depriving the Chamber of a reasonable answer. All the members within the

Page 5853

1 JNA -- amongst the members of the JNA were also those from the Territorial

2 Defence. You cannot really separate the Territorial Defence from the JNA.

3 Q. Sir, I have to intervene. I am not able to turn my microphone on

4 at any point because of you and your security. You asked for protective

5 measures, and of course I fully respect that. But what I would like to

6 ask you is when I am putting the question to you, please respond to that

7 question. The Trial Chamber, if it has any problems in understanding

8 either my question or your answer, I would assure you that the Trial

9 Chamber will intervene. And if I put any impermissible questions, they

10 will take steps to prevent that. So what I would like to ask you is to

11 respond to my questions briefly so that I don't have to interrupt you,

12 because I do not wish to endanger in any way the protective measures that

13 were granted to you.

14 Sir, you said that at a certain point you and another group of

15 people were taken out of the hangar. Is this correct?

16 A. I appreciate your efforts to respect the protective measures, but

17 I still have enough room to respond to you. Some of your statements are

18 weird and strange and some things are not fully expressed. So this is why

19 I'm telling you things that make sense. I'm not going to skip over any

20 questions, and I will respond in the best possible way and in good will.

21 Q. Thank you very much, sir. In any case, I will be completing my

22 cross-examination of you in another ten minutes.

23 Can we go back to my question then. You said that at a certain

24 point you and a group of about 10 or 20 people came out of the hangar. Is

25 that correct?

Page 5854

1 A. Not that I came out, but I was brought out still. The questions

2 put before that have not been clarified fully, especially when we're

3 talking about Stanko Grezo [as interpreted] and Milan Duvnjak [as

4 interpreted]. That was the purpose, wasn't it?

5 Q. I don't have to tell you what the purpose of the question is. I

6 put a question to you, you did not respond to that question, and now I

7 move to another question.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Let us not be confused, Ms. Tapuskovic. You asked

9 a question. The witness said: Before I deal with that question, you

10 haven't let me answer the one before that fully, and he dealt with the

11 question before it. He hasn't yet turned to your last question. It's not

12 that he's refused to answer it; he hasn't reached it. So if you want to

13 get an answer from him about it, I think you should put it again. But if

14 you're happy to leave it as it is, by all means, move on.

15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to

16 avoid any kind of misunderstanding or any kind of tension, especially

17 remarks by the witness while my microphone was on because I wanted to keep

18 his identity confidential. What I did say to the witness is that I was

19 not going to put any questions on that topic anymore. So I apologise if

20 it was taken as my attempt to confuse the witness; that was not my

21 intention. I simply said that I was not going to put that question

22 anymore. Thank you.

23 JUDGE PARKER: I was worried that you were confused about what the

24 witness had answered and hadn't answered. I see you're very clear what is

25 going on, so I will be quiet again and you carry on.

Page 5855

1 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank

2 you.

3 Q. I accept your correction. You said that you and a group of 10

4 to 20 people were brought out of the hangar. Do you agree with me that,

5 according to what you said here, groups were taken out in intervals of

6 about 20 minutes. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that was stated before.

8 Q. Thank you. You also said that you were in the third group. Is

9 this correct?

10 A. I think it was the third.

11 Q. But it was certainly not the first or the last group, was it, the

12 people who you say were led outside the hangar?

13 A. It certainly wasn't the first group. I can't say about the last.

14 Those who know could probably tell you. I don't know.

15 Q. On your way out of the hangar, there were quite many people

16 remaining inside. Isn't that right?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. As you were leaving the hangar, were you in the same group with

19 those other people and was the group arranged in the shape of a column?

20 A. Yes, I was in that group, as you suggest. That is beyond doubt.

21 Q. Thank you. Where exactly were you in that column? Were you at

22 the head? Were you somewhere around the middle? Or were you at the rear?

23 A. Towards the rear of the column, as I remember it.

24 Q. It would seem then that you headed from the hangar straight to

25 that vehicle which you eventually boarded, didn't you?

Page 5856

1 A. Not just I. The entire group of people. We were being led or

2 directed towards that vehicle that was waiting outside the hangar.

3 Q. You're quite right. When I said "you," I meant the entire group.

4 There's a distinction in our language, as you know, but you have

5 interpreted my question correctly. Tell me about this vehicle that you

6 boarded. Did the vehicle have its headlights on at the time?

7 A. My recollection is not that detailed. I don't know about the

8 headlights, but I assume they would have been switched on already because

9 it was dark by this time.

10 Q. How long did it take for your group to leave the hangar and then

11 for you personally to board that vehicle, since you say that you were

12 towards the rear of that column?

13 A. It only took a very brief time, a minute or two perhaps.

14 Q. So after you boarded the vehicle, the tarp came down, the tarp was

15 lowered, the tarpaulin, right?

16 A. No. The tarpaulin was not lowered. It was mounted on that

17 vehicle and nothing at all was lowered.

18 Q. I may have misspoken. I know about the tarpaulin being there, but

19 as you and your group were boarding that vehicle, the section of the

20 tarpaulin closing the entrance, was that lowered? Was the opening no

21 longer free, to put it that way?

22 A. The tarpaulin was never touched. It was the same way as when the

23 vehicle first came. The tarpaulin makes no difference.

24 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me something else about your way from the

25 hangar to the vehicle. Did you perhaps notice that the same vehicles that

Page 5857

1 you mentioned a while ago were parked around the area or were those

2 vehicles no longer there or were there new vehicles in the area now? Do

3 you remember anything like that?

4 A. No. I just remember the military vehicle. They were waiting for

5 us to board. That's all I remember.

6 Q. I'll just have to look to see if I have any questions left for

7 you.

8 Sir, just one more thing. As far as we're able to tell, you have

9 provided a total of 12 different statements to a number of different

10 institutions and organisations since these events. Aside from what you

11 were told by my learned friend from the OTP and Mr. Vasic, did you give

12 any other statements to any other institutions or organisations concerning

13 the events in Vukovar and at Ovcara?

14 A. Well, you said it yourself, didn't you? You said "several

15 different statements." I have no idea what you have in mind. What do you

16 want to know about particularly?

17 Q. I asked you about what you were told about. While testifying in

18 chief my learned friend from the OTP enumerated all the statements that

19 you gave, and you answered in the affirmative, didn't you? He was

20 followed by my learned friend Mr. Vasic who asked you about two or three

21 of the statements you made, and again you confirmed. I know that this is

22 an enormous amount of evidence and documents. I do not wish to go to any

23 length to examine this issue now. I do not wish to go back to the dates

24 or places that these statements or given at. I don't wish to talk about

25 the institutions that these statements were given to. All I want to know

Page 5858

1 about is whether you can still remember if there were other statements

2 that you gave to yet another institution or organisation, something that

3 the three of us who had been asking you questions so far, have omitted or

4 simply do not know about, something that we haven't referred to, that none

5 of us have referred to? Just a yes or no, please, it really makes no

6 difference.

7 A. I'm just timing my answer. I don't know the exact number. When a

8 statement was mentioned that I remember giving, I confirmed. What the

9 form of the statement was, now that's very difficult to say and there

10 should be records kept somewhere.

11 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

12 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my

13 cross-examination. Thank you.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Tapuskovic.

15 Clearly, Mr. Bulatovic, the witness and you would enjoy a break

16 now?

17 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Exactly, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume just after a quarter to 6.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 5.27 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 5.49 p.m.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

22 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

23 afternoon -- or rather, good evening to everyone.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Bulatovic:

25 Q. Good evening to the witness. My name is Momcilo Bulatovic, one of

Page 5859

1 Mr. Sljivancanin's Defence counsel. I will be asking you questions on

2 behalf of our team. All the instructions that you received from my

3 learned friends still apply.

4 My understanding is you gave a whole lot of statements. My

5 colleague Ms. Tapuskovic said you gave 12 statements. You testified

6 several times. I went through your statements. I followed your testimony

7 today and yesterday. My conclusion is you never actually met

8 Mr. Sljivancanin in person, as they say, did you?

9 A. That's correct. I did not see him anywhere throughout the time in

10 Vukovar.

11 Q. Therefore, we can agree that you did not see him on the 19th of

12 November, 1991, at the hospital when you arrived. You did not see him on

13 the 20th of November. You did not see him anywhere, not any of the

14 places, where you were present, did you?

15 A. I said I didn't see him. You can count the minutes, the days, and

16 the months. I didn't see him. That should suffice.

17 Q. I apologise. You state that there was an attempted break-through,

18 an attempt to break through the lines, and you found out at one point that

19 Vukovar's command had left Vukovar. So you advised your own people to try

20 and break out. Isn't that a fact?

21 A. That's not true. I didn't say that there was an attempt to break

22 out. We were left without our command. Our command abandoned their

23 position and, in a way, this also left me demobilised.

24 Q. What did you tell your own people after this occurred?

25 A. You say you have gone through my statements and studied them

Page 5860

1 closely, then you should know that in a way I informed them of what had

2 happened. As I described, I told them to do what they saw fit. I told

3 them to leave town if they could.

4 Q. This group -- or rather, your men, were these people natives of

5 Vukovar, locals, or were they people who originally came from elsewhere?

6 A. There were people from Vukovar in my unit, but there were people

7 from other parts of Croatia as well.

8 Q. Which other parts of Croatia, could you specify, please, and how

9 many people who were not originally from Vukovar?

10 A. There were several such people in my group. I should need to

11 count them. Is it that important for you? If so, perhaps you can give me

12 some time to collect my thoughts.

13 Q. I'm not so much after their names, to be quite honest, but if you

14 could specify their number, I mean the people who were not from Vukovar

15 and who were members of your group, I would greatly appreciate that.

16 A. You've just repeated the same question, and what I'm telling you

17 is I would need more time. I would need to look at my list. But the list

18 was provided in my previous statements and it is clear, if you look at the

19 lists, who came from where.

20 Q. Let's try to simplify this. Can you express yourself in terms of

21 percentage in relation to your group. What percentage of men in your

22 group were originally not from Vukovar?

23 A. Between 20 and 30 per cent.

24 Q. Can you please explain what you meant when you said that having

25 found out that the command had left you assigned a local man to your group

Page 5861

1 so that he could lead them out of the town of Vukovar. Why would that

2 have been necessary if, according to your account, the people from Vukovar

3 in your unit made up as much as 60 or 70 per cent of your entire unit?

4 A. The 60 to 70 per cent that you referred to was a figure that was

5 valid for as long as the unit was intact, but there were casualties.

6 There were members of our unit who were killed somewhere along the way.

7 Some were seriously wounded and were at the hospital. So the group

8 dwindled, and these facts can be misleading.

9 Q. All right. Let's try to turn this around because we seem to be

10 creating unnecessary confusion. On the day when you realised that you

11 were left without a command, to put it that way, how many men were there

12 in your unit? How many men did it comprise on that day?

13 A. Now that I try to think back, there were two men who were from

14 somewhere around Nasice, but on the day when the town was about to fall,

15 there were some men there who were members of the National Guards Corps,

16 defenders. And they formed a rather large group that was about to try and

17 get out of Vukovar. They requested assistance from our unit. They wanted

18 us to help them find the easiest way out since we were the unit that had

19 laid all the minefields. They believed that in this way it would be

20 easier for them to break through the lines and reach free territory.

21 Q. Does that mean that they needed help, they needed to be taken

22 through the minefields that you laid down?

23 A. Not only that. They needed help generally because these were

24 people who didn't know the layout of the town. They were in a new

25 environment there, so they didn't get around so well. They were

Page 5862

1 disoriented in a way.

2 Q. Do you have information, do you know whether there were also

3 foreigners amongst the people who were defending the town of Vukovar?

4 A. During the combat, in that period, I really don't know if there

5 were any foreigners or not.

6 Q. When you were at the hospital from the 19th until the 20th in the

7 morning and when you were moving about the hospital, did you hear whether

8 there were any members of the Croatian forces in the hospital who were

9 wounded and who were foreign nationals?

10 A. No, I didn't know anything about that at that time.

11 Q. Now we're going to go back to the events from July and August 1991

12 which you already talked about, specifically about taking children and

13 women away from Vukovar. What I would like to know is: Do you know how

14 this was organised? Was this done through some kind of public

15 proclamation? How was this organised and who organised it?

16 A. I did talk about that earlier, but it wasn't clear how this was

17 done. What I do know is that this was organised by the HDZ. I don't know

18 how this was done. I can't really tell you. That was done by using

19 buses. They used buses to take the women and the children away, but I

20 can't really give you any more details.

21 Q. Do you have information that some other organisations and the

22 Catholic church participated in this action?

23 A. I don't have that information. I told you all I knew that this

24 was organised, in a way, by the HDZ. I don't know whether there were

25 other organisations that also participated in this. I really don't know.

Page 5863

1 Q. I will not ask you any more questions, since you don't know. But

2 the evacuation that you mentioned when you were responding to questions by

3 my learned friend Ms. Tapuskovic, that you heard that there was supposed

4 to be an evacuation. What I would like to know is how you heard that.

5 Did you hear it through the media, through the radio, by way of a

6 proclamation or some other kind of informing?

7 A. I'm not sure how I found out about it. It's possible even that my

8 father went to the hospital or a little bit further away and that he

9 actually brought back this information, but I'm really not sure.

10 Q. Before you came to the hospital, did you have information that

11 civilians would be taken to Velepromet?

12 A. No, we didn't have that information.

13 Q. You never heard from anyone that civilians were to be evacuated

14 through Velepromet, that Velepromet was supposed to be used as a

15 collection point?

16 A. No -- well, I don't even know who would have been able to tell us

17 something like that.

18 Q. Would you agree with me that your recollection about these events

19 was much fresher in March 1993 than it is today?

20 A. Well, I don't have any thoughts about that. What I remember, I

21 remember.

22 Q. In March 1993 did you talk with Canadian investigators? This is

23 something that my learned friend from the Prosecution also reminded you

24 of. Do you remember an interview that you had with this investigator?

25 A. I did provide a statement to Canadian investigators, but I really

Page 5864

1 don't remember exactly when this was. I did provide a statement to them.

2 Q. I will remind you of a portion of that statement. We do have a

3 transcript of that interview of yours.

4 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] For my learned friends from the

5 Prosecution, it's ERN 00596064, that's the page that I'm looking at.

6 Q. Your response is as follows to a question from the Canadian

7 investigators. I'm going to read it. If you're not quite sure that I'm

8 reading it correctly, I will also give you the transcript to read back.

9 I'm reading your response.

10 "News was disseminated that we would be going to Velepromet from

11 the hospital and then again Velepromet as a collection centre."

12 Do you recall you said this to the Canadian investigators?

13 A. It's possible. I probably said that, but you asked me whether I

14 knew before I went to the hospital that we would be going through

15 Velepromet, that we would be leaving town via Velepromet.

16 Q. Well, I wouldn't want you to think that I was confusing you. I

17 will put the question in this way. When you got to the hospital, did you

18 hear then that civilians were supposed to go to Velepromet?

19 A. Yes, that's probably how it was.

20 Q. When you boarded the buses in the way you described in front of

21 the Vukovar Hospital, you said that no one told you where you were going.

22 Is this correct?

23 A. Yes, I boarded one bus, not buses, and it's true that nobody told

24 us where we were going.

25 Q. Sir, I know that you physically were not able to board more than

Page 5865

1 one bus, but what I meant was everyone who was there. But since you want

2 to be as specific as possible, I'm going to be as specific as you like.

3 So no one told you who were boarding that one bus where you were going.

4 My question is as follows: The soldiers who were guarding the bus that

5 you were in, did you ask those soldiers where they were taking you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you hear any of the other people who were on the bus with you

8 ask the soldiers where they were taking you?

9 A. I didn't ask anyone -- ask anyone where they were going.

10 Q. When you set off from the barracks, you still didn't know where

11 you were going. So what I am asking you is: Did you ask anyone then

12 where you were going when you left the barracks?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You were asked about enemy soldiers, as you put it, by which you

15 implied the Yugoslav People's Army and all the military structures that

16 were, let's say, on that side. Do you recall providing a statement in

17 Zagreb on the 20th of August, 1992?

18 A. I assume that you're thinking of my first statement after being

19 released from captivity?

20 Q. That's the statement I have. I don't know if there are any

21 others. The one that I have bears the date 28th [as interpreted] of

22 August, 1992.

23 A. What is the point of that question then?

24 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one

25 intervention for the transcript, on page 61, line 19, it's not the 28th of

Page 5866

1 August, it's the 20th of August.

2 Q. Do you recall that in that statement that you provided in 1992 you

3 mentioned a person with the nickname Capalo as being amongst the regular

4 and the reserve JNA soldiers?

5 A. Yes, I mentioned that person because -- I just thought that that

6 could be that person. That's my opinion.

7 Q. If I were to tell you that in that statement you described that as

8 a person that was short, with a beard, wearing a camouflage uniform, can

9 we agree that that is how you described that person in your statement that

10 you provided in August 1992, on the 20th of August, to be specific?

11 A. I still see that person the way I saw them that day. But I no

12 longer am quite sure about the nickname, but I assume that that person was

13 taking part in the attack on Vukovar and was somewhere in that area.

14 Q. Well, that was exactly my next question. Was that person from

15 Vukovar or from the environs of Vukovar? Do you know that person from

16 Vukovar from before the war broke out?

17 A. No, I don't know that person, but based on stories about certain

18 people, I sort of concluded that that could be the person. But this is

19 not something that I can be certain about.

20 Q. When you were questioned at the district court in Zagreb on the

21 27th of April, 2004, in the presence of the deputy prosecutor for war

22 crimes from Belgrade as well as the investigating judge from Belgrade, in

23 response to questions about whom you know from Vukovar, and this question

24 was put to you by the investigating judge from Belgrade, Mr. Alimpic, you

25 said, among other things , I'm going to read to you again. If you doubt

Page 5867

1 the veracity of what I'm reading, I will let you read it.

2 But you said the following: "I also know Mirko Vojinovic, known

3 as Capalo."

4 Do you remember that?

5 A. No, I don't recall saying that that was Mirko Vojinovic, Capalo.

6 I don't remember saying that.

7 Q. I'm asking you about something else, so we're not going to waste

8 any more time on this.

9 Tell me the following: In response to questions from my learned

10 friend Ms. Tapuskovic you said that you could not tell the difference in

11 the JNA between the reserve soldiers, volunteers, members of the

12 paramilitary formations, and regular soldiers because of the similarity of

13 their uniforms, the camouflage uniforms, the olive-drab uniforms, and so

14 on. Is that correct?

15 MR. SMITH: Objection, Your Honour. Objection.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

17 MR. SMITH: The group that the witness couldn't tell the

18 difference between was slightly more limited than I think was put in the

19 question. I believe he said he couldn't tell the difference between the

20 reservists and paramilitary formations or the reservists and Territorial

21 Defence, but not the number of groups that's been placed in that question.

22 That's my recollection.

23 JUDGE PARKER: I'm quickly trying to turn back. My own

24 recollection is that it was a more restricted group than you have

25 suggested, Mr. Bulatovic. Are you -- do you disagree with that? If so,

Page 5868

1 we'll have to find the exact passage.

2 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's how I

3 understood it. It's possible that I am mistaken. Well, let's not waste

4 any more time. Let's address the witness and then we can resolve that.

5 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... differentiate

6 between reserve forces and Chetniks was the note I made.

7 MR. SMITH: If I can assist, Your Honour, that's at page 48,

8 lines 1 and 2, and 47, line 25, the last line.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Was my note reliable or wrong?

10 MR. SMITH: Absolutely correct, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Oh. I've had one win this week.

12 I think you might go a step back and just find out what he

13 couldn't differentiate between, Mr. Bulatovic, and move from there, if you

14 wish.

15 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. Here's a

16 question for the witness.

17 Q. Could you clearly distinguish between what I shall call regular

18 JNA soldiers on the one hand and all the other units that he observed in

19 the area? If so, based on what?

20 A. This is a very outlandish chapter of our conversation, sir. I'm

21 not sure why distinction -- any distinction at all should be drawn between

22 all these. It was all a unified environment, to be placed under one

23 heading only with no particular distinctive features.

24 Q. This precisely is the reason I am asking. Can you explain to us

25 and the Trial Chamber the following: If you were able to distinguish

Page 5869

1 between all these enemy forces and units, based on what? If not, please

2 explain why.

3 A. Well, that is what constitutes the difficulty here. How can one

4 explain who was a member of any of the units there. I wasn't able to

5 know. I wasn't able to check. I wasn't able to ask which unit they

6 belonged to. The only way was to try to distinguish based on their

7 appearance, and that was probably not the most reliable way to ascertain

8 their membership of any armed unit or perhaps based on their behaviour,

9 what they were wearing. But the entire exercise would have been

10 misleading. I wasn't well placed to draw an assured distinction.

11 Q. Can you remember how many people you saw at Ovcara inside or

12 outside the hangar wearing camouflage uniforms?

13 A. I don't know. I can't say. I can't say if there was a single

14 person wearing camouflage uniform. It's really difficult to answer

15 questions like that.

16 Q. When you spoke about external features, based an which you would

17 have been able to distinguish regular soldiers from those others, do you

18 think age could be included as one of the possible factors of distinction?

19 A. That could have been helpful in a limited way. If you saw a young

20 man wearing a regular uniform, they were likely to be regular soldiers,

21 conscripts of the JNA. And those who were older could have been members

22 of the TO or another unit that had been mobilised.

23 Q. Let me ask you about this age issue. Where would you draw the

24 line? What would be -- what would be the line that you would draw between

25 the regular forces on the one hand and the TO on the other, what specific

Page 5870

1 age?

2 A. Anyone over 20 years of age would be more likely to be a member of

3 the reserve forces, the kind usually called to military drills. That is

4 not the sort of thing that you would expect an 18 year old or a 19 year

5 old to be involved in.

6 Q. Therefore, if one of the people you saw there wearing a uniform

7 the way you remembered them, and this person happened to be over 20 or

8 over 30 years of age the way you reckoned, which unit would you have

9 guessed them to be a member of?

10 A. They might have been TO, they might have been paramilitaries, they

11 might have been Chetniks, they might have been from one of the volunteer

12 units, they might have been from any of those units who joined at one

13 point in time. There was a wide range of units present in the area on the

14 enemy side. It was clear, however, that the JNA enjoyed the support of an

15 external factor, but they were in control of the entire thing and they

16 were the unifying element, to put it that way.

17 Q. My question wasn't about that, but I'm still happy with the answer

18 you've given.

19 Let me ask you this: During your time inside the hangar, did you

20 see any member of these military units lead any of the detainees outside?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you please say -- or rather, can you describe the

23 circumstances, who was led away and under what circumstances?

24 A. I'm not sure what you mean by "circumstances," but to name a few.

25 Sinisa Glavasevic was one of those who were led away, as well as another

Page 5871

1 defender called Gaso. Those were the people I recognised. I'm not sure

2 what else you think I could help you with.

3 Q. Did you notice if these people were returned or brought back?

4 A. I didn't notice that.

5 Q. I want to know about that vehicle. A while ago in answer to one

6 of the questions by Ms. Tapuskovic you said that the vehicle was driven up

7 to the hangar, if my understanding is correct. If not, please explain how

8 it got to be there.

9 A. The vehicle was parked there. It had been driven up just before

10 we were taken outside. It was waiting for us with the engine on and ready

11 to go.

12 Q. What do you mean by "parked," specifically in relation to the

13 door, the hangar door? Did it back up to the door or was it parked in

14 that street that ran parallel to the side of the hangar?

15 A. It was there on the path connecting the road to the hangar. It

16 wasn't at the door itself. Had it been at the door itself, we would not

17 have been able to get out to begin with. There was some room between the

18 hangar door and the truck itself, two, three, four metres perhaps.

19 Q. If I understand you correctly, this lorry was backed up to the

20 hangar door and you boarded from the back?

21 A. Yes. The lorry had been driven up in reverse and the back of the

22 lorry was facing the hangar door.

23 Q. This daylight, as it were, or the room which you crossed to reach

24 the back of the lorry, my learned friend Ms. Tapuskovic asked you

25 something about this but I don't think I understood your answer. Was the

Page 5872

1 back of the lorry covered or closed with anything?

2 A. Yes, there was a bit of misunderstanding there, wasn't there? The

3 vehicle was covered with tarpaulin, but the front side of the vehicle was

4 open. And once everybody had boarded the vehicle, the steps were pulled

5 up.

6 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe there's an

7 error in the transcript on page 67, line 24. We talked about the front

8 side of the vehicle, but actually I think the witness said the back of the

9 vehicle -- or rather, the middle part of the vehicle. Maybe I should

10 bring this up with the witness because there appears to be some confusion

11 about this, if I may.

12 Q. Which part of the vehicle was open?

13 A. The middle part of the military vehicle.

14 Q. Which is the middle part?

15 A. The part where you get on. The middle part of the part where you

16 get on towards the rear. How should I put it?

17 Q. Left side or right side?

18 A. The middle is the middle. The middle is precisely what it says.

19 There is no left or right.

20 Q. I'm afraid we're finding it slightly difficult to understand each

21 other here. At the outset I even believed for a while that everything was

22 crystal clear, but it now appears the situation is slightly confusing,

23 therefore I will have to ask again. This part of the vehicle where you

24 boarded, was it covered with tarpaulin or anything like that?

25 A. Yes, the vehicle was covered. Apart from the part of the vehicle

Page 5873

1 where we boarded which was partly covered, but the part where -- that was

2 used for boarding was open, like I said.

3 Q. That means the back of the vehicle where you boarded had been

4 driven up to the hangar door, and that part was open, the back of the

5 vehicle, right?

6 A. It was partly open, only as much was necessary for people to

7 board, but that part, too, was covered with tarp.

8 Q. The back of the vehicle where you boarded, how large was the

9 opening?

10 A. About one-third of the entire area, if I can put it that way.

11 Q. Thank you. I now fully understand. Once you boarded the vehicle,

12 did you perhaps notice that there were other vehicles driving behind you

13 or ahead of you?

14 A. I was not able to see what was ahead of us, but I was able to see

15 what was behind us, and there was nobody following.

16 Q. Did anyone else but you try to jump off the vehicle? Did anyone

17 entertain ideas of escape?

18 A. Yes. I've said that already, haven't I?

19 Q. Why didn't they?

20 A. I think you should ask them, not me. But this person that I have

21 in mind is among the victims. However, there was this other man who was

22 trying to scare him in a way and kept him from leaping off.

23 Q. Why was this person scaring him? What was this person telling

24 him? Did you hear an explanation of sorts?

25 A. Perhaps "scaring" is not the right word. Rather, this other

Page 5874

1 person was cautioning him not to do it because everybody would be killed.

2 Q. There's something I forgot to ask you. I hope you don't mind.

3 Inside the hangar at Ovcara there was a length of rope you say used to

4 separate something. What I want to know is how exactly was this length of

5 rope positioned inside the hangar?

6 A. It was near the entrance to the hangar, near the green school-desk

7 that I mentioned. I'm not sure what this length of rope was used for, but

8 it was there.

9 Q. Was it to the left or to the right on the way into the hangar in

10 relation to the entrance?

11 A. Right in continuation, as I said, near the entrance, a bit more to

12 the right, if you like.

13 Q. Do you know its purpose, what its purpose was, why this length of

14 rope was left there?

15 A. I think I've answered that, haven't I? I didn't know the purpose,

16 but it was there.

17 Q. Was it used to separate groups of people, perhaps?

18 A. It may have been. I don't know. I'm not able to answer that.

19 Q. You mentioned a school-desk, a table. Did you see anyone seated

20 at that desk writing something down?

21 A. No, I didn't see anyone writing anything down there.

22 Q. Your name was recorded by a soldier that you described to the

23 Canadian investigators, rather short, a thin moustache, but that's not

24 what I want to know. How far was that the place where your details were

25 taken from the desk that you have mentioned?

Page 5875

1 A. You mean how far was the desk from me or the person taking my

2 details?

3 Q. The person taking your details.

4 A. 15 to 20 metres, thereabouts.

5 Q. You said something about the number of mines you laid. In answer

6 to one of the questions by Ms. Tapuskovic after she had shown you your

7 statement to the Belgrade court, you said something about 40.000 mines,

8 whereas in your testimony you say that your group only laid as many as

9 1.000. What I want to know is: Had mines been laid there before you came

10 along in order to block or booby-trap certain areas, certain axes, groups

11 before you?

12 MR. SMITH: Objection, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

14 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this witness didn't testify that he laid

15 40.000 mines. That statement was made in some testimony that he gave in

16 Belgrade, and then he explained that the number wasn't necessarily

17 accurate but it related to the general magnitude of mines being laid. And

18 he certainly didn't say that his group laid 40.000 mines.

19 JUDGE PARKER: That's not suggested in the question, is it?

20 MR. SMITH: At the beginning of the -- in a sense, yes. In the

21 beginning of the question it said: You said something about the number of

22 mines you laid. And then: "Ms. Tapuskovic showed a statement and you

23 said something about 40.000 mines," implying that the witness said in that

24 statement that he laid 40.000 mines. And in any event, he never agreed to

25 that amount but said: Look, it was just a figure to reflect the magnitude

Page 5876

1 of some minelaying.

2 JUDGE PARKER: I think we're all aware of that and, above all

3 else, the witness has kept a very clear head on some of these matters.

4 MR. SMITH: Right.

5 JUDGE PARKER: So I think you can proceed, Mr. Bulatovic. Thank

6 you.

7 The question being put to you, sir, was whether mines had been

8 laid before you came along.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, someone had been laying

10 mines before we came along. As I said, I only joined later on after the

11 clashes had already broken out. It would be ridiculous for me to say that

12 no one had been doing anything there before we came, but I'm not sure what

13 the point of the question is or how I could possibly help with this.

14 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I continue, Your Honour?

15 Thank you.

16 Q. So there had been someone laying mine before you came along. This

17 is the reason I'm asking the question. Can we agree that those who had

18 been laying mines before you came along, as you said those might have been

19 members of MUP or some other units, had laid many more mines than you did

20 later on. When you testified before the military court in Belgrade as an

21 accused, the figure of 40.000 mines was mentioned.

22 A. I've already said that I took charge of one of the units doing

23 that kind of work. It's not difficult to assume that mines had been laid

24 before I arrived on the scene.

25 The other thing you're suggesting is just to give an idea of how

Page 5877

1 far this went and that the number of mines actually laid might have been

2 far greater than those that we eventually managed to set up.

3 Q. What is the explosive charge of a single anti-tank mine.

4 A. I've forgotten the details.

5 Q. If I tell you that this is at least five kilos of explosives,

6 would you agree with me?

7 A. I could agree, yes.

8 Q. Ms. Tapuskovic asked you about Vladimir Djukic. She also asked

9 you about any information and knowledge you had concerning the existence

10 of anti-aircraft guns or any such units, and you said you had no

11 information whatsoever on that, didn't you?

12 A. Well, you've just said it. I said that, didn't I?

13 Q. I'm just checking if my understanding is correct, sir.

14 A. I don't know if it is. I said what I said. I did not know of any

15 such units, units with that sort of a job or mission.

16 Q. When talking to the Canadian investigators in March 1993 on

17 page 4332 --

18 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] And for my friends 00596089.

19 Q. You were explaining to the investigators who Vladimir Djukic was

20 and this is your answer. I'll read it out for you if you think I'm

21 fabricating. Perhaps you can have a go yourself.

22 "He was a commander over at Sajmiste. He was a commander of the

23 anti-aircraft guns there."

24 Do you remember stating this to the Canadian investigators, sir?

25 A. Not in so many words. I don't think he could have been. He was

Page 5878

1 at a command post and he had a weapon that was taken off a tank. The

2 so-called PAM anti-aircraft machine-gun, but he wasn't there for the

3 reasons that you are suggesting.

4 Q. I'm not suggesting anything. I am just reading a portion of your

5 own statement. Let's move on. What about your brother? Was he involved

6 in the fighting in Vukovar?

7 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe it might be a

8 good idea to go into private session for this question. I'll ask about

9 the person's name, so ...

10 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5879

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

3 MR. SMITH: If I can just interject for a brief moment, Your

4 Honour, it's a little bit belated, but it's in relation to Vladimir

5 Djukic. And I think the proposition was put to the witness that he was

6 the -- in charge of and in command of the anti-aircraft gun. I'm not

7 really disputing that maybe that's the case somewhere in the statement.

8 But on 00596089 all that we see is that he was a commander of the unit at

9 Sajmiste. And it's not on that page, but bearing in mind we're not going

10 to be introducing the statements to Court. I'm just wondering whether

11 that statement, if that could be -- if we could be told of that and then

12 we could agree to it.

13 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was using

14 the B/C/S. It's 34, page 34, and the number is 00596089. And indeed, if

15 we look at line 9 we can see the witness's answer, the one I read out. He

16 was a commander over at Sajmiste, a commander of the anti-aircraft guns.

17 If there's anything else in any other transcript, I really don't know, but

18 this is all I have.

19 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. We're not really in a

20 position to dispute that at the moment. It appears that we have the B/C/S

21 and the English on the same page, but it appears that the English hasn't

22 been fully translated because it is said it was inaudible, but we accept

23 Defence's statement to that effect.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

25 Carry on, Mr. Bulatovic.

Page 5880

1 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Just another question to finish

2 up. The witness confirmed today that he never saw Mr. Sljivancanin

3 personally. He said he saw him in the media.

4 Q. What I want to ask the witness is: Which media? Where did he

5 watch Mr. Sljivancanin or see Mr. Sljivancanin? How often? And is there

6 anything that struck you as distinctive in the footage you saw, and which

7 period of time are we talking about?

8 A. That's a whole lot of questions. If you can please try to be a

9 bit clearer and more precise. This is the marketplace style question.

10 Q. If that's what you think of this courtroom, then that may

11 influence my view of you --

12 JUDGE PARKER: No, not this courtroom, merely your questions,

13 Mr. Bulatovic.

14 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as we speak, I am

15 part of this courtroom, or at least that's how I see myself. Nonetheless,

16 I apologise. I will try to ask a really brief question.

17 Q. Where did the witness watch or see Mr. Sljivancanin, which mass

18 media?

19 A. On television.

20 Q. When?

21 A. After my release, after the 14th of August, 1992.

22 Q. How often?

23 A. Difficult to say.

24 Q. Were these recordings about Mr. Sljivancanin's time in Vukovar?

25 A. For the most part, yes.

Page 5881

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

3 questions. Thank you.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic.

5 How does that place you, Mr. Smith?

6 MR. SMITH: In the same place, no further questions, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

8 You'll be pleased to know, sir, that that concludes the questions

9 that counsel have for you. And I think between counsel the various

10 matters you felt you didn't get a chance to fully answer, you've managed

11 to clear up. So the Chamber has no further questions for you. We would

12 like to thank you for your time and trouble in coming here to The Hague

13 and for the assistance that you have given us. When we rise in a few

14 moments, you will be free to return to your home. Thank you very much.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE PARKER: Before we rise, just so that counsel are aware of

18 the position, the Chamber delayed giving our decision on a motion by

19 Mr. Smith to admit into evidence, although only for the purpose of

20 assessing the credibility of the witness, Mr. Vujic, a written statement

21 that had been made by Slavko Tomic, who has since died. The basis for the

22 motion of Mr. Smith was a question put to the witness by counsel for the

23 accused Mr. Mrksic. That question, as it originally appeared in the

24 English transcript, clearly indicated an attack on the credibility of the

25 witness arising from his evidence as to the content of a conversation he'd

Page 5882

1 had with Slavko Tomic. Because Mr. Vasic felt that as he remembered it he

2 had not asked the question in the form that it appeared in the transcript,

3 we delayed our decision and arranged to have the tape checked. That

4 having been done, it is now apparent that the original transcript was

5 misleading. Mr. Vasic's question did not call into question the

6 credibility of the witness about the content of his conversation with

7 Slavko Tomic. What Mr. Vasic asked was directed to a different

8 conversation, one between Slavko Tomic and the accused Mr. Mrksic, a

9 conversation which the witness did not hear.

10 In these circumstances, there was no challenge to the credibility

11 of the witness on this issue by Mr. Vasic. The statement will not,

12 therefore, be admitted on the basis proposed.

13 We will now adjourn, resuming on Monday at 2.15.

14 And you, of course, are now free to go. Thank you.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day of

17 March, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.