Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6213

1 Friday, 17 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir. Your affirmation still applies.

7 I have learnt overnight that it is important for the witness to be

8 able to finish today. I did, without knowledge of that, urge counsel to

9 give attention only to the important things today. That news reinforces

10 that. We have seen with some other witnesses how effective that can be.

11 I would ask the cooperation of counsel in achieving that objective.

12 Mr. Domazet.

13 WITNESS: WITNESS P-009 [Resumed]

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Domazet: [Continued]

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to

16 all.

17 Good afternoon, sir. I'll pick up where I left off yesterday.

18 You were answering my questions and you were talking about the events

19 unfolding in Vukovar in the spring of 1991, your personal experience as

20 well as that of your family. You talked about the telephone calls, the

21 threats you received and warnings to leave town. Do you know about

22 anybody else being subjected to such threats, or was this simply an

23 unpleasant topic to discuss at the time?

24 A. Yes, I heard that other people got such telephone phone calls, and

25 the threats that -- that I mentioned yesterday, yes. That's fine. Thank

Page 6214

1 you.

2 Q. Your mother, I assume, was not involved in politics and did not

3 hold any political post in your community, or your father for that matter?

4 You yourself, after all, were only 19 years of age at the time, weren't

5 you?

6 A. That's correct, sir. That's exactly right. Yes.

7 Q. You explained that this was the reason that you decided for the

8 first time to leave Vukovar with your mother, sometime in July 1991.

9 First you went to Belgrade and then to Bijeljina. Your father joined you

10 in Belgrade a little later.

11 My question: During your time in Belgrade, did you personally or

12 your father as an ethnic Hungarian encounter any problems or any friction

13 in that environment?

14 A. [Previous translation continues] ... say that anything happened

15 there, no.

16 Q. After that you left for Bijeljina. You talked about the better

17 living conditions and about the fact that Vukovar was now closer. How

18 about your time in Sid, though? You said you went there to see a friend.

19 Was that the real reason behind your decision, and if so, who was that

20 friend in Sid?

21 A. One of my friends from the same -- same home town where I used to

22 live was as a refugee in Sid, so I decided to go there. I didn't see any

23 reason why not. Why wouldn't I be able to go there?

24 Q. Did you know at the time that there was a recruitment and

25 mobilisation office in Sid for people who hail from Vukovar and a

Page 6215

1 Territorial Defence office for Eastern Slavonia?

2 A. [Previous translation continues] ... territorial mobilisation,

3 but I assume that there was -- there were armies over there, yes.

4 Q. If you had known this, would you still have decided to run the

5 risk all the same and go to Sid to see your friend?

6 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

7 Q. My apologies. Can I ask you to please repeat your answer, because

8 it wasn't recorded. Your last answer?

9 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 Q. Your acquaintance if I may call him that --

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Domazet, we still didn't get the answer because

12 the witness answered you while you were still speaking. We've just got to

13 get back into that habit of watching. The answer twice was "probably

14 not."

15 THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Smith.

17 MR. SMITH: Just briefly, Your Honour.

18 In relation to page 3, line 25, a question was put and it's the

19 similar problem as you have just mentioned. Then we have the answer at

20 page 3, line 3, the witness's answer which wasn't recorded was that he

21 wasn't aware that there was a recruitment and mobilisation office, so it

22 just reflects the problem.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

24 Mr. Domazet.

25 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

Page 6216

1 Q. You said person A was an acquaintance of yours. He practically

2 tricked you into going to that building where the mobilisation office was,

3 right?

4 A. That's correct, sir, yes.

5 Q. You mentioned that there was yet another person with them whom you

6 also said you knew. Can you tell us who that was?

7 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would just ask that this be in private

8 session, if he provides the name.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

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Page 6217

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10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You described the Velepromet warehouse in Vukovar. You went into

14 a lot of detail about that. Based on what you saw when you were there,

15 did it strike you that the warehouse might have been used as a logistics

16 base by the TO people?

17 A. You mean when I was brought first time or after that?

18 Q. I mean generally. How did it look to you, the first time you were

19 there as well as later on? You must have had a chance to have a look,

20 have a good look. What was the impression you had?

21 A. First time I was over there, I didn't have that kind of

22 impression. I wasn't really sure what it was. There were soldiers there,

23 but I didn't know, was that a command post or was it a -- I don't know,

24 warehouse for the -- for the army or whatever it is. No, I wasn't aware

25 of that. No.

Page 6218

1 Q. Zigic, the man who met you there, was he one of the commanders for

2 those people there, or is that at least what it looked like?

3 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

4 Q. Can you please repeat the last answer?

5 A. That was my general understanding, sir.

6 Q. You mentioned that there was another person with him. You later

7 learned that this person was Vujovic's body-guard, and Vujovic is a person

8 whom you believed to be one of the TO commanders there. Would I be right

9 in stating that?

10 A. That's correct, sir.

11 Q. Did you know Vujovic from before, from before the war?

12 A. No, sir, I didn't know.

13 Q. Since you didn't know him, did you perhaps hear later on that he

14 had worked as a police inspector in Vukovar before the war?

15 A. No. But I heard that he was a judge or some kind of judge,

16 whatever it is.

17 Q. Did you perhaps know that Zigic was the father-in-law of

18 Vujanovic whom you met later on?

19 A. No, sir, I wasn't aware of that, no.

20 Q. While answering my learned friend's questions you used that

21 photograph to show us a couple of things. You marked the spot where the

22 military trucks got their fuel within the Velepromet compound. You must

23 know, because you told us about this, that the JNA barracks was near the

24 Velepromet compound.

25 My question: Do you perhaps know if JNA vehicles also -- whether

Page 6219

1 JNA vehicles got their fuel in their own barracks, which wasn't far from

2 Velepromet?

3 A. That's possible, sir, but where I was over there, at that point of

4 time, I have seen trucks coming in and getting some of them refueled or

5 getting some supplies from that warehouse. But were they using barracks

6 for that kind of stuff, I was a prisoner at that point, so I have no idea,

7 and I couldn't see it, if they did or not.

8 Q. Bearing this in mind, would you allow for the possibility, based

9 on what you could see, that Territorial Defence lorries were getting their

10 supplies from the Velepromet compound, and that this term that you

11 used, "military vehicles," could also be applied to the vehicles used by

12 Vukovar's TO?

13 A. That's -- that's correct. That could be possibility, yes.

14 Q. You spoke about the guards at the Velepromet entrance. You said

15 those were military policemen, and you could tell them because they --

16 they all had white belts.

17 My question: I think you spoke about their uniforms. These were

18 olive-drab JNA uniforms with white belts and this indicated to you that

19 these persons were military policemen. Am I right?

20 A. Yeah, you could be right. That's right, yes.

21 Q. Can you remember if those military policemen that you saw at the

22 entrance to Velepromet had white belts -- I mean only white belts, or also

23 those white belts worn over the shoulder, the kind that is usually worn

24 around the waist, but there is the other kind that is usually worn from

25 the shoulder down to the belt. Do you remember these military policemen

Page 6220

1 wearing those belts, too, or just the ones around the waist?

2 A. If I remember correctly, I think they only had belts. I don't

3 remember having that, no.

4 Q. Thank you. Just another question about this. Do you know, or do

5 you not know, if Vukovar's Territorial Defence had its own police force?

6 A. No, I'm not sure about that. I cannot say that for sure. But

7 I've seen people from a Territorial Defence having belts on them, white

8 belts, but that's a possibility. I'm not sure. I can't answer that with

9 yes, no.

10 Q. Thank you. You spoke about the time you spent at Petrova Gora.

11 You spoke about that kitchen that you used to go to. You probably know

12 this, so I'm going to ask you this: In addition to catering for the TO

13 people and those who were fighting there, did the kitchen cater also for

14 the population of that area?

15 A. Yes, sir. That was a public kitchen for everybody, yes.

16 Q. Thank you. You described to us what was going on at the time. I

17 think it was on the 17th of November that person B brought to that house a

18 lady who had previously been in the centre of Vukovar in a cellar and who

19 said that several days before she had obtained some supplies from the Nama

20 department store. She said that it was possible to buy some things there,

21 and you found that exceptionally strange.

22 While testifying in chief, you talked about the heavy shelling on

23 account of which people were -- were not able to move about out in the

24 open.

25 My question is: What you found to be exceptionally strange, were

Page 6221

1 you surprised by the fact that in the centre of town itself there was a

2 shop open that was selling supplies? This probably did not apply to other

3 parts of Vukovar or any of the parts of Vukovar that you had been to at

4 least?

5 A. First of all, it wasn't person B that brought that person in

6 there. That was a different person over there. But, yes, that was very

7 weird that she would say something like that, considering how many

8 shelling and -- how much shelling and how many grenades fell during the

9 day on Vukovar.

10 As she explained in her story, when she went downtown to get some

11 groceries, there were -- it wasn't a store that was working, but there

12 people inside or outside the store probably selling the stuff from the

13 store to people that had money to pay for it. That's the understanding

14 that I got, yes.

15 Q. Thank you for this clarification. You spoke about your presence

16 when civilians were being separated. You said there was a need to screen

17 them and that the first attempt that was made was to separate Serbs from

18 Croats. The Serbs were told to come forward, and you say that a great

19 deal more people had come forward than had been expected to, and then

20 individual vetting began. Did I understand that answer correctly, sir?

21 A. If you're talking about Velepromet, yes, people were separated as

22 soon as they were taken off the buses or the trucks. One of the questions

23 was that was asked that Serbs step out from the crowd, well, from the line

24 that -- from men -- actually, the question was actually towards the men.

25 And they were asked to step out. A lot of people stood -- stepped out

Page 6222

1 from the line, but at that point you couldn't say who was -- who was who

2 and whatever it is. So I guess they decided, considering all those facts,

3 that everybody's going to go through a questioning anyways.

4 Q. How did you understand this individual vetting to be conducted?

5 Was your understanding that people would be asked about their involvement

6 in crimes against the population? Was that what the questioning was

7 about?

8 A. That's correct, sir, yes. That's -- that was my understanding.

9 Q. According to what you saw or heard, was one of the people who were

10 to conduct this questioning the Zigic that we have already mentioned?

11 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.

12 Q. Was this one of the reasons that led you to conclude that

13 according to what you thought then Ovcara was another possible collection

14 centre? Is that how I can understand your explanation of yesterday?

15 A. That's correct, sir. That's -- that was my general understanding

16 at that time, yes.

17 Q. In your testimony, however, you said that there were certain

18 civilians, and I seem to remember you mentioned a woman, I'm referring to

19 the local population, who were very tense and afraid that all the

20 prisoners would be taken to Sremska Mitrovica without being previously

21 checked?

22 A. I don't remember saying Sremska Mitrovica, but, yes, that's

23 correct, what you said, yes.

24 Q. When you heard the way those people responded, did you hear that

25 among them there was a conviction that some of these prisoners had

Page 6223

1 actually committed crimes and that they suspected them of doing so, or

2 were even convinced that they had done so?

3 A. Yes, sir. But I -- I didn't -- I didn't -- I didn't see it

4 myself. You know, that there would be stories or rumours that people --

5 sometimes people would just come up with all kinds of stories. So, yeah,

6 that's a possibility, yes. Because none of those people -- or I -- that's

7 my opinion. None of -- a lot of us didn't -- were not in a town or inside

8 a town where those things were happening, so those were the stories that

9 people heard.

10 Q. Did this create a tense atmosphere among the people who were there

11 waiting to see the prisoners?

12 A. I believe so, yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Thank you sir. I have competed my cross-examination.

14 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Domazet.

16 Ms. Tapuskovic.

17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Cross-examination by Ms. Tapuskovic:

19 Q. Good morning to all. I cannot see the witness from where I am

20 standing, but I hope we shall be able to carry out the cross-examination

21 anyway. No problem. Thank you.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I think that's improved the scenery. Yes.

23 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

24 Q. Good morning, sir. My name is Mira Tapuskovic. I am one of the

25 Defence counsel for Miroslav Radic, and I will take only about 15 minutes,

Page 6224

1 I believe, for your cross-examination. I will try to be expeditious to

2 meet everybody's requirements.

3 Yesterday in answer to a question put by my colleague,

4 Mr. Domazet, you described how in 1991 or 1992 you submitted a request to

5 change your last name. Did you do this in Vukovar?

6 A. Yeah, that's correct.

7 Q. Can you tell us to what body in Vukovar you submitted this

8 request?

9 A. Municipality.

10 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we move into

11 private session for a while?

12 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

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Page 6225

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the usher

23 please put on the ELMO Exhibit 277 which we all saw yesterday. 277 in

24 e-court, please.

25 Q. And, while we are waiting for the document to show up on the

Page 6226

1 monitors, I'll put my question to you.

2 Yesterday you told us that the wife of person B found your

3 grandmother in Velepromet; is that correct?

4 A. Just one second. Yes. That's correct.

5 Q. You also told us that you spoke to your grandmother in Velepromet,

6 is that correct, when you found her?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. Yes. Do you have Exhibit 277 on the screen now?

9 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you told us, if I remember correctly, that

11 the shape you drew here and marked C represents where the women were

12 standing in front of this building in Velepromet; is that correct?

13 A. [Previous translation continues] ... described it, it's when

14 people are taken off the bus, that's where women would stand and men were

15 taken away and put in lines. And that's correct, that's what C

16 represents.

17 Q. Very well. You told us that your grandmother was in the building

18 that you have marked G; is that correct?

19 A. That's correct. I'm sorry -- okay, go ahead.

20 Q. You also told us here that you spoke to your grandmother outside

21 in front of the hangar?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. As you have described and marked on this photograph, this position

24 of all the persons who were in Velepromet at the time, can you explain to

25 us how it came about that your grandmother was in G and how she was able

Page 6227

1 to come outside to talk to you?

2 A. I don't understand the question, I'm sorry. What do you mean, how

3 was she over there?

4 Q. I'll try to simplify my question. Can you explain how your

5 grandmother was able to come out of the building you have marked G,

6 although it was being guarded, and talked to you outside the building?

7 A. That's more understandable to me. Person B's wife managed to get

8 her out and to talk to me for a couple of minutes, yes.

9 Q. Thank you. On the first day of your testimony when asked by my

10 learned friend from the Office of the Prosecutor, you said that your

11 grandparents were taken to Sremska Mitrovica from Velepromet; is that

12 correct?

13 A. That's correct, yes.

14 Q. In your statement to the investigators of the Tribunal in 1998 you

15 said that your mother invested a lot of effort into getting them out of

16 Sremska Mitrovica; is that correct?

17 A. She went over there to see them. She got my grandmother from

18 there; she was released. My grandfather stayed in the prison and he was

19 released later as a war prisoner, or whatever the exchange was happening

20 later on, yes. That's correct.

21 Q. Thank you. Can you then explain the fact that we received from

22 the Tribunal a list compiled by the government of the Republic of Croatia

23 the Commission for Detainees and Missing Persons, and this is a list of

24 all the persons who were in Sremska Mitrovica and who were exchanged or

25 released on any basis, and that this list includes neither the name of

Page 6228

1 your grandmother nor the name of your grandfather. So I will repeat my

2 question. Can you explain this?

3 A. No, I don't. I don't have it.

4 Q. Thank you. We'll now move on to the events of the 20th of

5 November.

6 You said that you saw person D at Ovcara and that you knew him

7 from your school days; is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Could the usher remove this photograph, please? We don't need it

10 anymore.

11 You said that you spoke to person D about some family problems of

12 yours; do you remember that?

13 A. No, I don't remember that. No.

14 Q. You don't remember that you mentioned to person D that your

15 grandparents were killed in Pionirska Street?

16 A. No. But that's where they used to live. No.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 Could the usher now put on e-court Exhibit 156, please?

19 And while we are waiting for the photograph to come up on the

20 monitors, it's a photograph you saw yesterday, I'll move on and ask you my

21 next question.

22 You told us here that on the 7th of November, 1991 you were

23 approached by Zarko Amidzic; is that correct?

24 A. That's correct, yes.

25 Q. And in your conversation with him he insisted that you join

Page 6229

1 the TO?

2 A. And that's correct, too.

3 Q. And person B opposed what Amidzic was insisting on; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yeah. He didn't want me to join anything, yes Not at that point,

6 no.

7 Q. But regardless of the opposition of person B, you gave way to

8 pressure from Zarko Amidzic and you went to another building to formally

9 join the TO; is that correct?

10 A. That is correct, yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Could the usher now assist the witness with a pen.

12 And, sir, if we could zoom in on the map by two positions, if possible.

13 Once more, please. Thank you.

14 Could you indicate the approximate location of the building where

15 it was, where you reported to join the TO. If it's a problem, we can try

16 to zoom in further.

17 A. This is the house where we stayed. This pen is not working. It's

18 not working. The pen is not working, I cannot. No. The pen is not

19 working, I can't.

20 Q. We will continue with our questions while this technical problem

21 is being solved.

22 Can you tell me -- we'll move on to save time, and if the smart

23 pen or smart screen can be made to work, then we'll come back to this.

24 Please tell us how far the house where you registered as a member

25 of TO was from the house in which you were living with person B?

Page 6230

1 A. It was about three to five minutes walk, not -- not even that, no.

2 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, do you know the name of the street in

3 which the house inhabited by person B was? And just say yes or no at this

4 point. Don't mention the name of the street.

5 A. Yeah, I think I know. I think I know.

6 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we move into

7 private session for a minute?

8 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I wanted you to mark on the map some other things, but we shall

24 see.

25 Tell me, then, the place where the wife of person B worked, how

Page 6231

1 far away was that from the house in which you were staying? That was the

2 house where person B lived.

3 A. It was about five minutes. It was in the same street, where the

4 house was. Yeah.

5 Q. And tell me, the public -- the soup-kitchen where you were eating,

6 how far away was it from the place where you were staying?

7 A. It was the same house where I -- where I was brought first time to

8 get dressed.

9 Q. And the house where you registered and took a uniform and where

10 you were given weapons?

11 A. That's correct, yeah.

12 Q. Can you tell us as you spent the time period from the 4th --

13 4th of November until the fall of Vukovar and a few more days there, can

14 you tell us whether there were any positions of the TO on Petrova Gora and

15 whether the TO had certain weapons there and, if so, what weapons?

16 A. I'm not sure -- I don't think they had any positions over there.

17 As far as keeping the weapons or -- I don't know, or some kind of

18 weaponry, as you're talking about, no, I wasn't aware of that. No.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can we proceed?

20 We'll go back now, sir. Please try to mark on this photograph the

21 house where you were staying. That is the house --

22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that

23 perhaps we should move into private session.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

25 [Private session]

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Page 6234

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14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

16 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. While testifying in chief and while answering questions by my

18 learned friend, Mr. Domazet, you said you did not know who your natural

19 father was; is that right?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You testified at the Milosevic trial, and you said there that you

22 did not know at all whether your natural father was alive. Do you

23 remember that?

24 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

25 Q. Have you learned anything new since?

Page 6235

1 A. No, I don't know where he is. Or is he alive or not.

2 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, something about the

3 transcript. On page 22, line 12, the answer was not recorded. But a

4 later answer indicates clearly what the answer would have been, and I

5 don't think that really constitutes a problem.

6 Q. While testifying in chief, Witness, you said that person B was a

7 close friend of your family before the war, right?

8 A. Yes. He knew my family, yes.

9 Q. You testified in chief on page 32, lines 10 through 12, that

10 person B was a very, very good friend of your natural father. Do you

11 remember saying that, sir?

12 A. Yes, I do remember that. Yes.

13 Q. Do you believe that person B knew more about your father than you

14 did, and did person B consider himself to be his good friend?

15 A. He knew my mom and he knew my dad, my physical dad, or biological

16 dad, if you want to call it or whatever you want, when they were young.

17 They grew up together, so -- exactly. And when they -- my parents, I

18 guess, they got married, and I was born. When they separated, I don't

19 know what they did after that, but until that time they knew each other

20 very well, yes.

21 Q. Thank you. You said that person B got killed in a car crash. Do

22 you remember when this occurred?

23 A. It was, I think, August or September 1992.

24 Q. What about person B's wife? Did she continue to live in Vukovar

25 with her children?

Page 6236

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. I will now move on to the 20th of November. You said

3 you all got up very early on that particular day. You got up at around

4 6.00 a.m., didn't you?

5 A. Yeah, approximately that time, yes.

6 Q. You also suggested that person B had already left and was back at

7 about 9.00 a.m.; is that right?

8 A. Yeah, he went out and came back. Yes.

9 Q. Person B had a private vehicle, didn't he?

10 A. Yes, he did. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us whether that car displayed any damage after three

12 months of fighting in Vukovar?

13 A. I think it was. Yes, I think it was, yeah.

14 Q. At any rate, it was still roadworthy, wasn't it?

15 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

16 Q. Was this car kept in a garage? Or was it parked outside on the

17 street?

18 A. One car he had, yes, I think it was parked outside; and the other

19 one, the one that he was driving most of the time, he found it on the

20 street. Yeah.

21 Q. Thank you. I will now list all the locations that you visited

22 with person B on that day in the order indicated previously by your

23 testimony. After your morning coffee you first went to Velepromet, didn't

24 you?

25 A. Correct.

Page 6237

1 Q. After that you went with person B to the barracks, didn't you?

2 A. Yeah, we drove by. Yes.

3 Q. You went back to Petrova Gora, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You now went back to the barracks and you suggest that the

6 situation had changed dramatically in the meantime; is that right?

7 A. That's correct too.

8 Q. And now you went back to Velepromet where you spent about

9 15 minutes, as you said; is that right?

10 A. That's when the convoy left the barracks, and we went after that,

11 yes. That's right. Or together with the convoy, whatever you want to

12 call it. We just briefly stopped at Velepromet.

13 Q. You then went to Ovcara, didn't you, for the first time that day?

14 A. That's right. Yes.

15 Q. You briefly left Ovcara together to Petrova Gora with person B,

16 didn't you?

17 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

18 Q. Late the same day you went back to Ovcara for the second time?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's one thing

21 about the transcript, page 25, line 5 reads, "No audible response." The

22 witness was asked the question about briefly leaving Ovcara and going to

23 Petrova Gora with person B. And the witness answered, "Yes."

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

25 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6238

1 Q. You said yesterday that the first time you went to Ovcara you

2 thought this was just another collection centre, didn't you?

3 A. Yeah, that was the general understanding, yes.

4 Q. You also said that there were a lot of people following the convoy

5 in their own private vehicles, didn't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So person B and you drove in person B's car and you followed the

8 convoy too, didn't you?

9 A. Yes, that's the -- that's the way I remember, yes.

10 Q. On the way to Ovcara did you see any other vehicles headed there?

11 A. No, I can't recall. But I've seen people leaving the barracks

12 with their vehicles in the same direction as the convoy, but I can't say

13 they were there following the convoy or whatever. So I can't say that for

14 sure, no.

15 Q. That's fine. You said that when you arrived at Ovcara person B

16 parked his vehicle 20 to 25 metres from the hangar entrance; isn't that

17 correct?

18 A. That would be kind of a guesstimate, yes, I think so. Yes.

19 Q. I'm just reminding us what you told us yesterday. When you

20 arrived with person B, which side of the road did person B park?

21 A. If I remember correctly, on the right side. I believe on the

22 grass or something, yeah. Just on the main road over there.

23 Q. Do you remember if there were any other vehicles parked there?

24 A. Yes, I do remember. Yes, there were cars, yes.

25 Q. What about in front of the buses? Were there other cars parked

Page 6239

1 there too?

2 A. In front of the bus, like which one or -- what do you mean, in

3 front of the bus?

4 Q. Well, I'll move on with my questions and subsequent questions may

5 clarify the situation, or at least I hope so.

6 When you reached Ovcara by car -- or, rather, on the way there did

7 you pass a yellow house?

8 A. Yes, we did.

9 Q. And which side of the road was that on?

10 A. [Previous translation continues] ... before you make a turn to the

11 right side towards Ovcara. Actually, towards the hangar, let me be more

12 specific, yes.

13 Q. Your Honours, I would like to please ask the witness to tell us

14 again which side of the road he saw the yellow house on their way to

15 Ovcara.

16 A. It was on the left side.

17 Q. Thank you. Back in 1998, when you gave a statement you told the

18 OTP investigators that person B parked between the hangar and the yellow

19 house. Do you remember saying that?

20 A. Yeah, that main road, yes.

21 Q. You said you parked midway between the hangar and the yellow

22 house. Would you agree with me that it was midway between the two, half

23 the distance separating the two?

24 A. The question is kind of unclear. But as I said, it was -- it was

25 a yellow house on the left side between -- before you make a turn to the

Page 6240

1 right side, we parked on that road before the hangar. What was the

2 distance between there, the house and the main road or middle, in the

3 middle, it's just -- it's a technicality. But as far as I can remember,

4 we were pretty close to the hangar when we parked.

5 Q. Can I have the usher's assistance, please.

6 Witness, I would like to show you a statement you gave to the

7 investigators. Since you decided to speak in English, I will provide you

8 with an English copy. The relevant portion of the text is highlighted in

9 yellow. I would like to ask you to please read that aloud. Since

10 person B name is included in that portion, could you just substitute the

11 real name of person B for "Person B." Yes, just the highlighted part,

12 please.

13 A. "When we arrived, person B parked the car between the hangar

14 building and the yellow house. He told me to stay by the car and then he

15 went toward the hangar."

16 Q. Thank you.

17 Can we now please have Exhibit 256 from the e-court system placed

18 on the monitors? This is a set containing 20-odd photographs. The page

19 that I have in mind is 21; the page is 00531251.

20 Sir, can you see the photograph on the monitor in front of you?

21 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

22 Q. Thank you. Do you recognise the scenery?

23 A. I believe that to be Ovcara.

24 Q. What can we see in this photograph? Can you please place a cross

25 to mark the yellow house that you mentioned in your statement?

Page 6241

1 A. I don't think it's visible here. It's right here in this corner.

2 Q. Sir, the circle that you drew, does that mark the exact location

3 of the yellow house, or could it be further off, passed this point?

4 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we don't have the

7 witness's answer to my last question. He said the yellow house was not

8 visible. This is page 28, line 13.

9 Q. Could you now please use a cross to mark what you believe to be

10 midway between the hangar entrance and the circle that you drew at the far

11 right of the photograph?

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. This should mark the mid-point or the midway distance between the

14 hangar and the yellow house.

15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek that this

16 drawing be admitted into evidence. This is where, according to the

17 witness's statement of 1998, person B parked his car.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I can't agree with that last proposition. But we

19 will receive the exhibit first.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 287.

21 JUDGE PARKER: As his statement was read out in the transcript,

22 there is no reference to "midway." It is merely parking between the

23 yellow house and the hangar. That is a correct reading of the statement.

24 There is no "midway."

25 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I accept this. It

Page 6242

1 was an overly liberal interpretation of the witness's account. His actual

2 words have, however --

3 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ...

4 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] -- been recorded because he read

5 out the relevant portion of his own statement.

6 Q. Sir, it appears that the person B told you to stay in the car

7 while he was off to the hangar, right?

8 A. Yes, I stayed by the car.

9 Q. Thank you. While you were travelling in person B's private

10 vehicle from Ovcara to Velepromet, how long did the journey take?

11 A. I don't think it's longer than 15 minutes.

12 Q. And it would have taken you as long to drive back to Ovcara,

13 wouldn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you explain why it is that you both went to Petrova Gora

16 afterwards? Why didn't you simply stay at Ovcara?

17 A. I didn't feel comfortable staying there myself.

18 Q. I have two or three questions to go. Let us now go back to your

19 second time at Ovcara. You told us about those persons that person B had

20 taken outside the hangar and person D whom you yourself had taken outside

21 the hangar. You found them all in the same spot, 30 minutes later when

22 you came back, right?

23 A. Yes, they were outside. Yes. As far as I could remember, yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us what changed over those 30 minutes outside the

25 hangar?

Page 6243

1 A. I -- I don't understand the question. Can you clarify that,

2 please?

3 Q. Yes, I can. Was the number of persons and vehicles the same when

4 you returned with person B as before?

5 A. It's a possibility there were more vehicles there, but I -- I can

6 only speculate about it. I'm not sure. I wasn't paying attention to

7 that.

8 Q. It was beginning to get dark, right?

9 A. Yeah, that would be correct, yes.

10 Q. Outside the hangar you saw a tractor with a trailer covered by a

11 tarpaulin, right?

12 A. Yeah, that was brought after we arrived.

13 Q. Can you tell us who drove that tractor up?

14 A. No. No, and -- no, I don't know. No.

15 Q. Can you tell us how far the tractor with the trailer was from the

16 hangar itself?

17 A. The trailer, I think, was facing -- or side of the trailer was

18 facing the main entrance of the other hangar, if I remember correctly.

19 Q. My last question: Before you left Ovcara, did you notice that

20 anyone had boarded that trailer?

21 A. No, ma'am. No.

22 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

23 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] This concludes my

24 cross-examination, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. It was a longish quarter of

Page 6244

1 an hour.

2 We will adjourn now and have a 20-minute break and resume at 10

3 minutes to 11.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

7 MR. LUKIC: Five minutes more, Your Honour.

8 [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to all.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. I am Novak Lukic,

11 attorney-at-law, and I will put questions to you on behalf of Mr.

12 Sljivancanin as his defence counsel.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we move into private session for

14 a while, please.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6245











11 Pages 6245-6248 redacted. Private session.















Page 6249

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I gained the impression when you were describing Zigic in

5 Velepromet that he was some kind of important person. Did you have this

6 impression that he was not only questioning people, but that he was asked

7 about people's status?

8 A. That was my general understanding, yes, sir.

9 Q. You described a conversation between person B and Zigic about your

10 release, and that they had some kind of heated discussion. Did I

11 understand that correctly in your statement on page 27 and yesterday's

12 testimony? Did you hear that conversation or did you only learn about it

13 later on?

14 A. Person B later explained to me that they had really difficult time

15 to take me out of there, yes. He explained to me. I didn't hear the

16 conversation, no.

17 Q. Just a moment. You said that person B was in the Territorial

18 Defence and that he didn't have any particular position or status in your

19 view. Based on that discussion of theirs, as you also mention in your

20 statement, when you say that Zigic gave way, did person B enjoy some kind

21 of authority and respect in the town?

22 A. He knew a lot of people, yeah, and I believe he had a lot of

23 respect from those people. Yes.

24 Q. When you were visiting Velepromet did you see other people

25 arriving and taking away people, either without any problems or after

Page 6250

1 arguments, pleas, discussions?

2 A. I believe so, sir. I believe so. Again, I can't say, because I

3 didn't -- I didn't participate myself in that, so I -- but I -- I believe

4 so, yes. Yeah.

5 Q. May I conclude that they always had to ask someone from the local

6 TO, people like Zigic, in order to take someone out?

7 A. Yeah, I think that would be correct, yes.

8 Q. You said that you were issued with an old olive-drab uniform and a

9 rifle which person B took from you. Do you remember whether you were also

10 issued with a grey coat?

11 A. I can't remember. Could be. Probably, yes. Or I can't remember

12 exactly.

13 Q. This is a military coat such as worn by soldiers, an old military

14 coat, a longish one?

15 A. Yes, it was an old --

16 Q. Is that correct?

17 A. Yeah, older ones, yeah. I got the older uniform, yeah.

18 Q. Have you heard of a man called Ljubinko Stojanovic? Did you know

19 him?

20 A. No, I don't remember. No.

21 Q. I understood you to say that you didn't know Miroljub Vujovic and

22 Stanko Vujanovic before the war; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct, sir. Yes.

24 Q. Did you know a man called Milan Lancuzanin, nicknamed Kameni, or

25 hear of him?

Page 6251

1 A. I might have, but I can't -- exactly sure, no.

2 Q. In relation to the first two, what was your impression about B's

3 relation to them? Did they know each other? Did they respect each other?

4 A. Yes, I believe so. Yes, sir. Yeah.

5 Q. When you were in that part of Vukovar, we won't mention the

6 neighbourhood, did you see Vojislav Seselj come into Vukovar?

7 A. No, sir. I never seen that person, no.

8 Q. But you heard that he visited Vukovar in those days, people talked

9 about it?

10 A. Not that I'm aware of that, no. I'm not sure, no.

11 Q. I'll ask you about another person. Does the name Marko Crevar

12 mean anything to you?

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. Very well. You arrived in Vukovar on the 5th of November. When

15 were you issued -- well, the 4th or the 5th, I can't be precise, but in

16 relation to the day when you were brought to Vukovar, that night, when

17 were you issued with a uniform and rifle?

18 A. I believe that would be -- I think 8.00 -- 8.00 in the morning. I

19 believe so, I...

20 Q. The very next day, after person B took you out of Velepromet; is

21 that right?

22 A. If I can remember correctly, yes. That would be pretty much like

23 that, yes.

24 Q. You mentioned the character of B, that he liked to help people,

25 gave away cigarettes. Were you a smoker at the time?

Page 6252

1 A. I did, sir, yes.

2 Q. There's a discrepancy between your testimony and your statement,

3 so I will remind you of it.

4 You said that all those days until the 18th, if we take that as

5 the date when the fighting stopped, that you spent all the time at home.

6 But in your statement you also said that you went to Milovo Brdo, where

7 the front lines were. Can you tell us how often you went there, why you

8 went there, and with whom?

9 A. I did go over there once. I can't remember exactly the date or

10 the day. It was daylight. I did stop -- the reason for going over there,

11 because my grandmother, the other grandmother, lives in the same street,

12 down the road. I wanted to visit her on the way to that -- to that point,

13 as you described. And as we did, we stopped over there and then we went

14 to Milovo Brdo. We stayed over there maybe for -- maybe for an hour, I

15 would say, and came back. Yeah, that's correct.

16 Q. But there was still fighting going on on Milovo Brdo; is that

17 correct?

18 A. That's correct, sir, yes. Yeah.

19 Q. You said your other grandmother. Is that your father's mother or

20 not?

21 A. [Previous translation continues] ... it's my other grandmother's

22 sister, yeah.

23 Q. Can we show the witness Exhibit 277 on the monitor, please? This

24 is the drawing you made yesterday of Velepromet and what you saw on

25 the 18th when you arrived in Velepromet. So I'll put a few questions

Page 6253

1 about that.

2 A. I don't have anything on my screen.

3 Q. Wait a little.

4 This is the drawing. And on the 15th, towards the end of the day,

5 you began testifying about what you saw on the 18th in Velepromet, and

6 yesterday you made a sketch for the Prosecutor, and you said that on

7 the 18th of November you saw your grandmother, and you saw military

8 policemen at the gate, that you saw the arrival of buses, that you saw a

9 lot of people, the separation of men from women, the taking away of men

10 for interrogation. You said that whoever was a Serb was supposed to step

11 out of the line. You then described how you recognised person C and

12 managed to get him out. And you made drawings of all this; is that

13 correct?

14 My question is as follows: What I have said just now about your

15 testimony of what you remember of the 18th of November, are you sure that

16 all of this took place on the 18th? Might not some of this have happened

17 on the 19th? I'll just remind you -- well, first please give me your

18 answer. Are you sure that all of that happened on the 18th?

19 A. It's possible, yes.

20 Q. Yesterday when testifying the difference between the 18th and

21 the 19th, according to you, was that on the 19th anyone could enter

22 Velepromet and that people with weapons also went in and that there was a

23 large crowd milling about, but that was the distinction you drew between

24 the 18th and the 19th?

25 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 6254

1 Q. I'll give you your statement now, because in your statement

2 there's a difference, a discrepancy.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Before you do, Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Your question was at line 23 of 40, are you sure

6 all of that happened on the 18th. Earlier in your remarks preceding the

7 question you asked, might not some of this have happened on the 19th. The

8 answer is: "It's possible."

9 It's not clear, I think, whether the witness is saying that it's

10 possible that all of this happened on the 18th, or that it's possible some

11 of it might have happened on the 19th. I think it might be useful for you

12 to get that clear.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is just what I want

14 to clarify through the witness's statement, because in his statement the

15 witness mentions some things as happening on the 18th and others on

16 the 19th. So without wishing to introduce confusion, I want to clarify

17 this with the witness.

18 JUDGE PARKER: I just felt you may have thought you'd got an

19 answer you wanted, and I was wanting you to be aware that this answer is

20 ambiguous.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Would you look at your statement in English, please? When you

23 describe your arrival in Velepromet on the 18th, that's page 5, the last

24 two paragraphs, you don't have to read it out loud. It's not necessary.

25 And then look -- look at page 7, paragraph 2, the first and second

Page 6255

1 paragraphs.

2 I'll put a very simple question to you. When you were making this

3 statement in 1998 the scenes of the arrival of the buses, the separation

4 of people lining up, the men on one side and the women on the other, the

5 separating off of Serbs and their questioning, did you link all that to

6 the date the 19th of November, not the 18th? And on the 18th, you only

7 saw your grandmother and person C. Is that what it says in your statement

8 made in 1998?

9 A. If I -- if I can recall the time, then those two days, it was

10 pretty much the same scene on both days. In a -- in the context of all

11 that, these things happened as well, so I did see my grandmother, and I've

12 seen this person over there.

13 Q. Yes. But in this statement you don't mention the separating of

14 men and women on the 18th, you don't mention buses on the 18th, you don't

15 mention calling out who is a Serb and who is not on the 18th, but only on

16 the 19th. If necessary, we can read out the paragraphs.

17 A. I don't know, what would you like me to answer to that? I don't

18 understand.

19 Q. I'm asking you quite simply on the 18th, the day you arrived in

20 Velepromet and found your grandmother, was there any separation of Serbs

21 from Croats or men from women on that first day.

22 A. As far as I can remember, yes.

23 Q. My second question: You did not say that to the Prosecutor in

24 February 1998; is that correct?

25 A. As far as the statement goes, I didn't -- no, I didn't mention

Page 6256

1 that, no.

2 Q. Thank you. I'll move on. There is no doubt on the 19th it was

3 quite easy to enter Velepromet and you were able to enter with a weapon;

4 is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Keep the statement; we may come back to it.

7 We'll now move on to the 19th. That's the day when, together with

8 your acquaintance, person B, you went to the hospital; is that correct?

9 First I'm reading from your statement, it wasn't that precise, but I

10 assume you woke up early that day. You say you got up at 6.00, is that

11 correct, most days?

12 A. That would be approximately the time, yes.

13 Q. You went on foot, first to Olajnica, and then to the hospital; is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct, sir.

16 Q. First you toured the yards of the houses where the corpses were;

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes, we did.

19 Q. Can we see Exhibit 278 for a while on the monitor?

20 This is your drawing yesterday of the area in front of the

21 hospital. Can you remember how many corpses there were and were they

22 lined up neatly? What did this look like?

23 A. Okay. That's not visible from the picture here. But yes, I can

24 remember how they looked like. Because we -- we put -- took the sheet off

25 each one of them. And yes, they were all lined up against a wall. As far

Page 6257

1 as that first house that we went into -- no, well, actually that yard.

2 And they were all covered with white sheets. Approximately about -- I

3 would say -- again, approximately, about 20 -- 20 to 30 people, probably.

4 Yes. And as far as I noticed, as I can remember exactly, they would be

5 mostly men over there. Not -- not Muslims, I don't know who translated

6 that.

7 Q. Do you remember if they had any numbers or marks near the bodies?

8 A. No, I don't remember that, but I know they were all naked

9 underneath, yes. Underneath the -- the sheets they were all naked.

10 Q. What about the other courtyard? Were those dressed, did they have

11 any clothes on?

12 A. Yes, they had -- most of them were dressed, yes.

13 Q. Why did you walk to the hospital? Was there a special reason for

14 it? I realise that the next day for the most part you drove, even when

15 distances were shorter. Why did you decide to walk, and how long did it

16 take for you to get there?

17 A. I don't think the roads were clear going -- going all the way

18 down -- well, we don't know that, so we went -- went walking over there.

19 But it takes about -- it's a very small town, so it takes about maybe half

20 an hour to walk.

21 Q. What you said about not knowing whether the roads were clear, were

22 there perhaps stories circulating that roads around Vukovar were

23 booby-trapped?

24 A. Again, yes, I probably -- I heard that kind of stuff, but the way

25 we walked and the streets that we walked on, we didn't see any.

Page 6258

1 Q. When you were near those dead bodies, that's what I read in your

2 statement, you gave a brief statement to a Serbian TV crew. That wasn't

3 in front of the hospital. That was in the courtyard where the bodies

4 were, right?

5 A. There is a correction to that. It was -- there is a police

6 station just before you arrive to the hospital, so close -- close to that

7 point. And it wasn't a TV, it was a radio station. As far as I can

8 remember, yeah.

9 Q. Let me just clarify this: In this photograph we can't actually

10 see the courtyards where the dead bodies were, can we?

11 A. [Previous translation continues] ... sir, no.

12 Q. We no longer require this photograph. Thank you.

13 Sir, can you please go back to the statement, your statement to

14 the OTP? I will ask you to please read aloud -- just a minute, please.

15 This is the English copy, page 6, paragraph 4, the third sentence. "[In

16 English]: When I first saw Mr. Sljivancanin."

17 [Interpretation] Have you spotted that, sir? Please read it out

18 slowly for the sake of the interpretation, all the way until the very end

19 of the paragraph.

20 A. You want me to read the whole thing? Okay.

21 "It was at this time I first saw Mr. Sljivancanin who was standing

22 in the yard of the hospital. I only learned this name later, but at that

23 point everybody around already pointed at him out as one in command of the

24 JNA in Vukovar."

25 You want me to continue reading?

Page 6259

1 Q. [In English] Yes, please. Yes, please.

2 A. "I also observed some type of a white vehicle believed to be

3 from the International Red Cross. This was sometimes in the later morning

4 or perhaps in the afternoon on the 19th of November."

5 Q. [Interpretation] Is this true, what you've just read out? Is this

6 consistent with your testimony?

7 A. I don't understand the question. What do you mean?

8 Q. Do you believe that these allegations are true? Do you stand by

9 these allegations that you just read out?

10 A. I made a correction to that.

11 Q. Can you tell us what the substance is of these amendments in

12 relation to what you stated originally back in 1998? You amended certain

13 details in relation to Ovcara, not the hospital, did you? Can you please

14 read that out?

15 A. You're right, I didn't make any -- any corrections to this one.

16 But what is the question that you are trying to ask me?

17 Q. Possible, really. You testified about these same events to the

18 OTP. What I want to know is what you stated to the OTP back in 1998, do

19 you still stand by that? Or do you find any of the allegations contained

20 there to be untrue?

21 A. [Previous translation continues] ... that I can see here that

22 would say that people pointed at him as one in command of JNA in Vukovar.

23 That's the only difference that I would say as a correction.

24 Q. We both have to slow down, please. So this sentence where you say

25 that the people around the hospital were pointing their finger at him as

Page 6260

1 someone who was in command, that's not true after all? It's what you said

2 yesterday, that he gave the impression of being a proper JNA officer. Was

3 that what led you to believe that he was in charge?

4 A. Okay. If you let me to clarify this. When I gave the statement,

5 I didn't write these letters. There was a person that was present in the

6 room when I gave the statement, and I believe, and I pointed out that to

7 the Prosecution, that some words that are mentioned in my statement are

8 not the way I put them. The general understanding is there, but not the

9 way I worded. So if you're trying to go with word by word that's written

10 here, some words that are over there are not the ones that I used. That's

11 all I can say now.

12 Q. Just let me make one small distinction there, and we can go back

13 to that subject. Do you remember when this interview was conducted in

14 February 1998, was a video recording or a tape recording made of that

15 interview? Do you remember that?

16 A. No, I don't remember. No. I think it was -- everything was

17 written on a piece of paper, I think. I believe so.

18 Q. But based on what I can tell from your statement, there was no

19 interpreter involved, you -- you were using English in your interview with

20 the OTP, weren't you?

21 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

22 Q. Your last answer was not recorded, sir. The interview was

23 conducted in English, right?

24 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.

25 Q. Yesterday, or rather day before yesterday on page 11, I'm talking

Page 6261

1 about your testimony here, not about the statement, if need be we can go

2 back to that, but you said you were standing outside the hospital for

3 about half an hour. You testified about that, and you saw him in passing

4 briefly, you said that on page 11, didn't you? The day before yesterday.

5 A. [Previous translation continues] ... correct sir, yes.

6 Q. You testified in chief about his appearance and you provided a lot

7 of detail. The next day you saw him in the barracks or, rather, at

8 Ovcara, was he dressed the same way as the day you had previously seen him

9 in the hospital courtyard?

10 A. Yes, as far as I can remember. To my knowledge, yes.

11 Q. In your statement you said this might have been some time late in

12 the morning or early in the afternoon. You told us how long it took you

13 to get there. Was this sometime between 11.00 a.m. and 1.00 p.m.? It's

14 really important, so if you could please specify, this half hour that you

15 spent in the hospital, when was that?

16 A. [Previous translation continues] ... can't say -- no, I can't say.

17 No. No, I cannot remember exactly. What time was it. No, I don't know.

18 Q. Let's take this one step at a time, please, and try to get as

19 close as possible to the actual time-line.

20 You walked, you crossed Olajnica and reached that courtyard there,

21 you spent some time there, and then you walked up to the hospital

22 entrance, if we can rewind the film, as it were. When did you first set

23 out? Were you in front of the hospital at around 11.00 a.m. or midday,

24 perhaps?

25 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I don't really know.

Page 6262

1 Q. What you stated back in 1998, when your memory was probably a lot

2 fresher, might just comprise this time-frame, right?

3 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I don't remember exactly did

4 I say 11.00 or 12.00 or whatever. I -- no. I've said somewhere in

5 between that time, could be, maybe not. You know, as I said, it's

6 possible. I'm not sure. I am not sure. Time-frames are really hard to

7 say.

8 Q. Perhaps I'm asking a lot. I won't press you on this, because you

9 have been specific enough, it seems. First you took the bus and then you

10 walked to Velepromet, and there was still natural light outside before you

11 got there, right?

12 A. [Previous translation continues] ... the bus. I don't know how

13 you misunderstood that.

14 Q. Can you please just hold your breath, sir? The interpreters need

15 to finish up before you start answering the question.

16 My understanding is you left the hospital to go back home in

17 actual fact with B, but then you came across a bus on which you drove part

18 of the way and then from thereon you decided to walk and it was then you

19 made up your mind to go to Velepromet, right?

20 A. Yeah, that would be correct, yes.

21 Q. My understanding of your testimony, please confirm if I'm right,

22 this time at the hospital was the first time you saw Sljivancanin. You

23 had not previously seen him in Vukovar. From your arrival -- or, rather,

24 you had never seen him in your life, right?

25 A. That's absolutely correct, sir, yes.

Page 6263

1 Q. And based on an answer you provided yesterday, you were not able

2 to watch TV in Vukovar. You only identified him at Bijeljina later on.

3 You had never seen him anywhere prior to that encounter at the hospital,

4 had you?

5 A. That's correct, sir, yes.

6 Q. Can you please help us with this, sir: In addition to B, whom you

7 were standing with outside the hospital, did you see anyone else whom you

8 recognised standing there, somebody who can confirm your story about

9 seeing my client there? Do you remember anybody else?

10 A. I believe it was -- he was -- his son, I believe he was there too.

11 Q. One of those two, the younger or the older?

12 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

13 JUDGE PARKER: What was your last answer?

14 THE WITNESS: I think it was his older son.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. A couple of questions about Velepromet in relation to the 19th.

18 You walked up to Velepromet. Let us drop the bus episode for the

19 time being. How long did you stay there at Velepromet on that day,

20 the 19th? I'm talking about the 19th now. You said you stood guard. You

21 even stood guard for about 15 minutes right outside?

22 A. Again, those 15 minutes, that could be -- time-frames, but again,

23 yes, we spent -- we spent some time on Velepromet. That's for sure, yes.

24 Yeah.

25 Q. 15 minutes. All right. You spent a short time outside the door

Page 6264

1 of a hangar; would you agree with that?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. It was outside Velepromet that B gave you his rifle to keep when

4 he entered Velepromet, didn't he?

5 A. Yes, sometimes he would leave it to me. Yes.

6 Q. Even if on that day anybody at all was free to enter Velepromet

7 carrying a weapon?

8 A. That's correct. Because I was inside too, with a weapon, so I

9 guess, yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Was his older son with you at Velepromet?

11 A. I cannot recall that, no.

12 Q. Can you remember anybody else who saw you arrive at Velepromet

13 without a rifle and then B giving you a rifle?

14 A. No, I can't recall that, no.

15 Q. Why did B give you his rifle to keep?

16 A. He just left it with me.

17 Q. For a short time you stood outside the entrance of one of the

18 hangars carrying a rifle and a military uniform just because somebody had

19 asked you to, right?

20 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Yes.

21 Q. You had never previously met this person who now asked you to

22 stand guard for a while and to hold his weapon. You didn't know who the

23 person was, did you?

24 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Yeah.

25 Q. Can you please repeat that, sir?

Page 6265

1 A. I believe that somebody from Territorial Defence, yeah.

2 Q. Fine. I'll ask you some questions about the 20th of November now,

3 about the barracks. My learned friend, Ms. Tapuskovic, has asked you a

4 number of questions, you have explained about certain places. Based on

5 what you drew, I got an idea of the general layout, but --

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe this would require us to go

7 into private session, briefly, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you remember the reason that you decided to drive over to that

25 man's house just in order to have coffee?

Page 6266

1 A. The reason we used the car at that part, because it was clean,

2 there was nothing -- there was no obstructions on the road or anything, so

3 you could use car if you wanted to go anywhere. Yeah. You didn't have to

4 walk.

5 Q. Unlike the area around the hospital, which was why you had decided

6 to walk, thinking that there might be obstacles along the way, right?

7 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

8 Q. Repeat the answer, please?

9 A. That is correct, sir.

10 Q. You first reached Velepromet, you didn't go in. You testified in

11 chief that there were people inside but no buses, and it wasn't as crowded

12 as on the previous day, right?

13 A. Yeah, that would be to my knowledge, yes.

14 Q. Inside Velepromet you saw some TO men, right?

15 A. Yeah, you can see -- yeah, soldiers, yeah.

16 Q. Can you remember who told you that somebody might be arriving at

17 the barracks? What caused you to go from there to the barracks?

18 A. [Previous translation continues] ... on the list. He went inside

19 and he got that information. I'm not sure, does it say B? I'm not sure.

20 Q. We've got it now. At this point in time, did you not find it

21 strange that some of the buses would go to the barracks in view of what

22 had been going on over the previous days and where civilians had been

23 expected?

24 A. That's correct, yeah. That was kind of unusual, yes. I mean,

25 considering that everybody, whoever was evacuated, on to -- until that

Page 6267

1 point, were brought to Velepromet, yes, that was kind of unusual. Yes.

2 Q. Ms. Tapuskovic showed you something and you agreed, that was based

3 on your statement, I do realise that. But your first arrival in the

4 barracks, in your statement you specify that this was sometime

5 between 11.30 and 1200 hours on that day. Is that possible?

6 A. Yeah, the time-frame, I can't exactly point -- pin-point what the

7 time-frame was.

8 Q. There is no doubt that this is what you stated back in 1998,

9 that's what your statement says?

10 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I didn't know exactly the

11 time-frame. You know, it's hard to say what time-frame was it.

12 Q. The first time you went to the barracks, or rather past the

13 barracks, because my understanding is you didn't actually go in this time

14 around. You were driving. Was there any need for you to enter the

15 barracks or were you actually able to see from outside the barracks that

16 there was nothing going on inside, no buses?

17 A. We didn't see any people anywhere, so we didn't stop. We just

18 glanced from that main road, there was nobody there, so we just left.

19 Q. The two of you were on your own, right?

20 A. It could have been somebody else with us in the car. I can't

21 remember.

22 Q. You now go back to the barracks -- or, rather, you go back to his

23 house, I'm not saying where it is, and about half an hour you're back,

24 right?

25 A. I can only speculate about the time-frame. But, yeah, it was

Page 6268

1 pretty much shortly after, yes. It could be possible, yes.

2 Q. I'm just telling you what you appear to have stated back in 1998.

3 It's up to the Court to decide what your intention may have been.

4 On the 20th were you wearing the same sort of JNA uniform that you

5 had been wearing the previous days?

6 A. If I recall correctly, yes.

7 Q. This other time you were not able to drive straight into the

8 barracks. You left the car parked outside somewhere, and you continued on

9 foot and eventually entered the barracks, right?

10 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

11 Q. Do you remember what you parked the car with?

12 A. Yeah, I think we pretty much walked right away.

13 Q. Your answer on page 55, line 12 was not recorded. And the answer

14 was "Yes"?

15 A. [Previous translation continues] ... repeat that, yes, we started

16 walking. I'm sorry.

17 Q. As soon as you entered the barracks you went straight to this

18 place where you saw the buses, the buses you drew on that sketch. You

19 described that they were parked in a semicircle. At a distance of perhaps

20 about 15 metres from there you saw a group of officers. Among them was my

21 client. And this was outside the circle, right?

22 A. Again, this 15 metres, I -- you know, I didn't have a metre with

23 me, so I couldn't really measure was it 15 metres, or was it 12 and a

24 half. But, yes, the picture is correct. Yes.

25 Q. Don't be afraid to be specific about distances. You did provide a

Page 6269

1 number of distances to the OTP. You told the OTP about the distances in

2 the case where you saw my client at the hospital and later on -- there is

3 no reason for you to hesitate. Try to be as specific as you can, but my

4 expectations are realistic.

5 A. Okay. If it's 15 metres, then it's 15 metres, yes. Yeah.

6 Q. Very well. Now we'll take part of your statement again, the one

7 you made to the OTP. The page I'm interested in is page 8 in English, the

8 second paragraph where you describe this. Please read it slowly.

9 A. The second buses.

10 Q. "[In English] As we approached."

11 A. "As we approached the buses, I saw four high-ranking JNA officers

12 standing in the middle of the circle formed by the driveway, not far from

13 where the buses were parked. The only one of these officers I recognised

14 was a Major Sljivancanin. There was another officer who appeared to even

15 be a higher rank than Sljivancanin, based on the insignia on his epaulets.

16 He had dark hair that was greying, and he was shorter and heavier than

17 Sljivancanin. These officers were talking among themselves. At this

18 point in time, the only soldiers I saw in the barracks were JNA, and most

19 of them were military police."

20 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. In relation to your testimony here

21 two days ago, there are some small discrepancies here. Now that you've

22 read this statement, does it jog your memory with respect to two matters:

23 As you described in detail, there was a shorter officer with a higher rank

24 than Sljivancanin, and as you approached quite close, could you tell me

25 what the rank was? Describe this in detail.

Page 6270

1 A. Not that I can recall anymore. But I've seen -- I've seen more

2 than one, definitely, of officers over there. Why does it say four over

3 there, I don't know, but what I am saying is just -- there were more than

4 one definitely at that point, and I do not recall the rank. I do not

5 recall the rank, no.

6 Q. Now that you've read the statement it says he was of shorter

7 stature, or stouter and with a higher rank. Does this jog your memory at

8 all?

9 A. No, it doesn't -- I don't remember the rank, but I do remember

10 seeing other officers over there. I -- no, I just can't -- I can't say

11 that for sure, no.

12 Q. You made the statement to the OTP in English; is that correct?

13 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

14 Q. There was no misunderstanding about interpretation?

15 A. [Previous translation continues] ... as I said, I wasn't taking

16 notes at that time.

17 Q. Did you read the statement before signing it?

18 A. I -- I think I did, yes.

19 Q. And you had no objections, except for the statement you made

20 before your testimony in Milosevic when you reread it?

21 A. Yes, I believe so, yes.

22 Q. The statement was probably shown to you on your arrival in

23 The Hague a few days ago; is that correct?

24 A. That's correct, sir. And I pointed out, again, that some wording

25 over there, it's not words that I used, or I can't recall the words that I

Page 6271

1 used for that.

2 Q. During your proofing session with Mr. Smith, you didn't tell him

3 that these words from your statement were not correct, the ones about a

4 stout officer with a higher rank that's not in your statement?

5 A. No, I said -- I said that there are some corrections that -- there

6 are some things that I can't remember exactly from there. That I ...

7 Q. But you didn't answer my question. With respect to this sentence,

8 you didn't tell the Prosecutor that this sentence was not correctly taken

9 down in 1998, yes or no?

10 A. For which sentence you want?

11 Q. [In English] I will read it in English. "There was another

12 officer who appeared to be even a higher rank than Sljivancanin based on

13 insignia on his epaulets. He had dark hair that was greying and he was

14 shorter and heavier than Sljivancanin."

15 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I just have a brief objection to the

16 previous question.

17 My learned friend said that you didn't tell the Prosecutor this

18 was not correctly taken down in 1998. I think the witness's evidence

19 today has been that he can't -- he can't remember that, not that it wasn't

20 correctly taken down. It's just a little bit misleading for the witness.

21 JUDGE PARKER: That was the impression I had of the evidence, and

22 the impression I have of the present point is that he did say to you in

23 proofing that he couldn't remember all of the things that -- today, all

24 of the things that are in the statement.

25 MR. SMITH: That's correct, in relation to some of the wording

Page 6272

1 that was used.

2 JUDGE PARKER: I think, you, Mr. Lukic and I, all have the one

3 understanding.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Sir, in 1998 your memory was certainly fresher in relation to the

6 events of 1991; is that correct?

7 A. I would -- I would say so. Probably. You know what, I've been

8 through a lot of hard time, and I try to forget as much as I could.

9 That's all I can tell you. I have been through a lot of trauma. I don't

10 know if you're going to understand that or not, but it's not your point,

11 but yes. I tried to forget as much as I could.

12 Q. I understand completely. Do you remember, because you served in

13 the JNA, what a lieutenant-colonel's insignia looked like or colonel's

14 insignia? Do you know whether a lieutenant-colonel has two stars with two

15 frames; and that of a colonel, three stars with two frames; and the major,

16 one star?

17 A. I think I recall that, yes.

18 Q. On that day in the barracks you recognised my client on the basis

19 of the impression you had gained the previous day in the hospital

20 courtyard; is that correct?

21 A. That's correct, sir. Yes.

22 Q. There is another discrepancy here in relation to your testimony of

23 two days ago. It's the last sentence in this paragraph. At the moment

24 when you arrived near the bus, there were only soldiers there, the

25 officers and the members of the military police, as you said. Does this

Page 6273

1 jog your memory that the members of the TO and others began to arrive

2 after your arrival, after the first impression you gained when you saw the

3 buses?

4 A. Yes, if I can remember correctly, there were some people as well

5 over there, yes. There was some TO soldiers over there already.

6 Q. How many, approximately, people were there in front of the bus at

7 the time when you arrived?

8 A. The numbers, I can't remember, but people were walking around the

9 buses. I -- I can only speculate on how many -- the numbers of people.

10 Q. 10, 15, 50? Can you say approximately?

11 A. Let's say 15, 20, I would say.

12 Q. That creates an impression, yeah. But in your statement of 1998

13 you say that when you reached the buses there were only JNA soldiers and

14 most of them were military police; that's what it says in your statement.

15 Do you agree that it was only then that the territorials began to arrive

16 as did other people who were not there when you arrived?

17 A. [Previous translation continues] ... that I've seen military

18 police inside, but I believe there were other people as well over there.

19 Maybe it wasn't -- it wasn't taken at that time, or -- or I -- I forgot to

20 say, I mean, it was a -- two days of giving a statement. It was very

21 tiring for me, so maybe I left out that detail or whatever it is. Or ...

22 Q. Now that we are talking about your statement, it says that you

23 gave the statement on the 18th and I think 20th of February, 1998. Those

24 two dates are certainly mentioned, but we never see the date of your

25 signature. Did you sign the statement on that second day, or only later.

Page 6274

1 Do you remember that?

2 A. No, I don't remember exactly. I was shown the tapes, and I was

3 giving a statement. No, I don't -- I don't remember exactly, no.

4 Q. When you arrived, at that very moment there was a group of

5 officers near the buses, and among them my client. That's indisputable;

6 is that right?

7 A. Yes, I did see the gentleman, yes.

8 Q. To clarify: It's not indisputable in my view, only in the view of

9 this witness. And that's regardless of what time it was, but it was about

10 half an hour after your first arrival in the barracks when there was

11 nothing there. Is that right?

12 A. Would you mind clarifying the question? Within half an hour? I

13 didn't understand.

14 Q. When you first arrived in the barracks on that day, in your

15 statement you say it might have been 10.30 or 12.00 noon, and half an hour

16 later when you came to the barracks, you saw the officers there and my

17 client among them?

18 A. That's the general picture I've seen over there, yes. As far as I

19 can recall.

20 Q. Under oath here, and in other cases, you say that when you arrived

21 in the barracks compound you saw my client; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, sir, I did.

23 Q. Among these -- or, rather, you approached those officers twice,

24 came really close to them when you were asking to be able to see your

25 acquaintance, whom you recognised in one of the buses. And then when you

Page 6275

1 approached the officers again you wanted to see whether something could be

2 done to have him released. You testified that in the meantime Miroljub

3 and Stanko Vujanovic arrived and that they had a discussion, as you said,

4 with those officers. In answer to a question put by the Prosecutor, you

5 could not remember, or you said you could not hear what they were saying.

6 What I'm asking you is: As you were approaching, I assume you did

7 not interrupt their conversation, because these were figures of rank.

8 What did you hear when you approached them twice?

9 A. I don't recall. I don't -- I don't know. They were not fighting

10 or arguing all the time. It wasn't like, you know, I tell you something,

11 you tell me something, I tell you, it was going on like for -- right away,

12 right away, you know. It's just -- not when I -- if I recall correctly,

13 when I approached them, I didn't hear any conversation or what was the

14 argument all about.

15 Q. In the next passage in your statement you say, and you said the

16 same to the Prosecutor two days ago, that you didn't hear what they were

17 discussing, but that it looked like a vehement discussion between the JNA

18 officers, including Mr. Sljivancanin. If you didn't hear what they were

19 saying, did you see gestures? What is the basis for your conclusion, for

20 what you said?

21 A. [Previous translation continues] ... it was that people were very

22 upset. I probably -- gestures, I can't remember exactly what they did,

23 but I know some of them had guns with them. But you know, I -- it was

24 just -- that was my impression, there was some kind of argument going on.

25 What was it all about, you know, nobody hit and shouted or anything, but,

Page 6276

1 you know what, I don't know. I can't -- I can't recall that. No. But to

2 me, it seemed that it was kind of, I don't know, pretty serious, because

3 it was kind of yelling and stuff, so -- I'm not sure.

4 Q. And who had rifles in their hands?

5 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Miroljub and Vujanovic -- and

6 Stanko, whatever.

7 Q. Did it appear to you to be a conversation between a superior and a

8 subordinate in a military context, or did it look like a discussion among

9 people who were having a conflict?

10 A. It seemed like an argument to me. There was no kind of respect

11 towards the officers, I think. That was my impression. It was kind of,

12 you know, as you say, it was kind of talk between kind of equal sides

13 or -- or -- I don't know how to describe that, but there was no kind of

14 relationship, officer/soldier, or whatever it is, yeah. That was my

15 impression.

16 Q. That was precisely what I was asking you about. Do you remember

17 whether any of the other territorials, not perhaps Miroljub or Stanko, was

18 pointing a rifle at one of the officers, or maybe Miroljub or Stanko

19 themselves, that they were not just holding a rifle in their hands, but

20 actually doing something with the rifles?

21 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I've seen people walking

22 around the buses and showing off the guns towards the prisoners, but

23 not -- if I can recall properly. No, I don't think I've seen that towards

24 the officers, no. Mind you, on one occasion I got into a bus, and I spoke

25 to that person, so I was -- I don't know what was going on outside.

Page 6277

1 Q. You described a situation where two persons, one of whom you

2 recognised as Tadija Dosen, were pulled out of the first bus, as you said,

3 and that the third brother was taken off a truck, which was parked next to

4 the buses. That's what I understood, right?

5 A. Correction to that would be that I did not recognise him, but I

6 knew one of them from before, yes.

7 Q. So you only assumed that the third was a Dosen brother, because

8 you didn't know him from before?

9 A. I only knew one by name, because he lived in the proximity where I

10 used to live, but that's -- that's how I know him, or I have seen him

11 before, but that's -- I don't -- I didn't say that I recognise him coming

12 out of the bus, no.

13 Q. The two that were taken off the first bus and beaten, as you

14 described, were they wearing bandages or plaster-casts, were there any

15 signs that they had been injured, and were they wearing civilian clothes?

16 Do you remember all that?

17 A. I -- I would not be able to recall that. Maybe they had something

18 on, maybe -- not exactly, I can't remember. I can't say that for sure,

19 no.

20 Q. You told the Prosecutor when he asked you about them, you said

21 that you didn't notice anything special, but that you saw that the third

22 person was on a stretcher. That's what you said two days ago?

23 A. Let me clarify that. Yes, the one -- the person that was on the

24 truck, but not those on the bus. I can't recall those on the bus. I'm ...

25 Q. I was only repeating what you said to the Prosecutor. This third

Page 6278

1 person who was on a stretcher, did he have any bandages or plaster-casts

2 on that you remember?

3 A. I believe so, yes. I believe so. He was on a stretcher.

4 Q. I'm asking you whether you know for sure, or do you only believe

5 so? Do you remember whether he was put into the van on the stretcher?

6 A. No, he was taken off.

7 Q. Did he walk up to the van?

8 A. I'm not sure. I can't recall now exactly. No. No, he was taken

9 off the truck, that's all I could see.

10 Q. Do you remember whether he had a plaster-cast, a bandage, was he

11 wearing civilian clothes, was he wearing pyjamas?

12 A. Again, I say it is a possibility. I can't -- I can't say for

13 sure. I wasn't -- I wasn't in that proximity right there so I can see

14 exactly, yes, okay, he had a pyjamas or -- on the bottom or whatever. I

15 can't say that for sure.

16 Q. And he was taken from the place where the truck was parked to the

17 van and he was taken past the buses, and together with the other two he

18 was taken, driven away from the barracks compound; is that correct?

19 A. I believe so, sir, yes.

20 Q. Did you hear later on, as you lived there for a while, did you

21 hear stories that in Negoslavci Arkan had killed a certain Dosen? Did you

22 hear those rumours about how the Dosens were killed?

23 A. Sir, I can only speculate on that. There was -- there were tonnes

24 of stories or whatever. But no, I didn't -- I didn't hear about them, no.

25 After that, I'm not -- I can't recall that I -- that I heard about it, no.

Page 6279

1 Q. When the buses left the barracks, the truck followed the buses; is

2 that correct?

3 A. If I can correct -- if I can recall correctly, yes.

4 Q. How long did you stay in the barracks after that? Did you go home

5 first and then towards Ovcara, or did you stay around the barracks for a

6 while?

7 A. No, we walked, we walked straight to the car, and then left after

8 them as well.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's time for a break,

10 because I'm a little tired.

11 JUDGE PARKER: We can't have you performing below your peak,

12 Mr. Lukic.

13 We will adjourn now and resume just after a quarter to.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Just a few more brief questions about the barracks.

19 You said that you remembered that a man nicknamed Faca was taken

20 off one of the buses. He was the brother of a man nicknames Ica, does the

21 name Ivica Husnik mean anything to you? Could that be one of the two?

22 A. It's not Ica, it's Iko, yeah. But, no, I don't know his real

23 name. I know his nickname, yes.

24 Q. Apart from this episode you described with the Dosen brothers and

25 the one about the man called Faca, did you see anybody else taken off the

Page 6280

1 buses while you were in the barracks?

2 A. No, sir. No, if I can remember correctly, no. Or from where I

3 was standing, but no, I don't remember. No.

4 Q. I understood you to say that you moved around quite a bit, around

5 that compound, when you moved around the buses and recognised that man?

6 A. [Previous translation continues] ... around the buses, yes.

7 Q. We'll now talk about the events at Ovcara, but there's only one

8 sentence I'd like you to read from page 6 of the English version of your

9 statement made in 1998. When I asked you about the interview you gave in

10 the vicinity of those corpses, could you look at the third paragraph,

11 line 8, I think. "[In English] While he was doing that, I was approached

12 by the female journalist and the film crew from Serbian television."

13 [Interpretation] Was this a radio or a television crew?

14 A. I -- I -- I'm not really sure. I believe it was a radio. I can't

15 believe -- I don't know. I can't recall exactly. I know there was an

16 interview, did they have a camera or not, you know, as I said ...

17 Q. Let's move on. We'll go back to the events of that day. You

18 left the barracks briefly to go to Velepromet, as I understood you to say,

19 I assume so that B could report to someone, we won't say who. Was it just

20 the two of you going to Ovcara by car?

21 A. At that point I think so, yes. Yeah.

22 Q. The only witness who can confirm that you were not at Ovcara right

23 after the buses arrived is a man who has died; is that correct?

24 A. Can you repeat the question? I don't -- is there --

25 Q. Is there any other person who saw you arriving at Ovcara later on

Page 6281

1 and not together with the buses, in a convoy following the buses?

2 A. I don't know, sir. I don't know the answer for that. No.

3 Q. All right. When you arrived in Ovcara and were standing beside

4 the vehicle, you were approached by a soldier who asked you to go behind

5 the hangars to stand guard; is that correct?

6 A. That's what I remember, yes. I -- yes.

7 Q. Were you carrying a rifle at Ovcara?

8 A. At that point, no.

9 Q. And when did you have a rifle at Ovcara?

10 A. At no point at all. But at that point, at what you are pointing

11 right now, no, I didn't have it, no.

12 Q. Did you have a rifle when you entered the hangar later on?

13 A. Not that I can recall, no.

14 Q. Did you have a rifle when you were standing in front of the

15 hangar, when those persons were taken out, before you left Ovcara for the

16 first time?

17 A. I -- I don't know, sir. I can't recall that. No.

18 Q. Do you know a man called Mirko Ljubisic?

19 A. No, I don't.

20 Q. Do you know a man called Goran Mugosa, nicknamed Kustro?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. Do you know a man called Goran Ivankovic, nicknamed Dzo?

23 A. No, sir, no, I don't.

24 Q. All right. At Ovcara a similar situation recurred, an unknown

25 soldier approached you and asked you to follow him and stand guard,

Page 6282

1 whereas in Velepromet he was probably a territorial, and now you say he

2 was a soldier, or was it a territorial again?

3 A. If I correctly recall, I think he was a military police, at

4 least -- okay, don't get me wrong, at least he had a white belt on.

5 Q. At that point were there other people in front of the hangar when

6 you were standing beside your vehicle? I'm referring to soldiers, not

7 people who came out of the buses?

8 A. If I correct -- if I recall correctly, there were some people,

9 even close to the cars, and there were -- there were some people outside

10 the hangar, yes.

11 Q. You didn't know this military policeman? He approached you

12 because you were standing by the car, according to the sketch you made.

13 Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.

15 Q. Did he call anybody else, or did he just approach you?

16 A. I don't know about that. No.

17 Q. When you arrived in Ovcara you described a scene where people were

18 still getting off the buses, you explained people being hit. Did you see

19 the truck that had followed the buses when you arrived there?

20 A. No, sir, I did not. No.

21 Q. The Prosecutor asked you about the length of time, and I will tell

22 you that you stated that after the hangar -- behind -- you spent about 15

23 or 20 minutes behind the hangar and that you then went back; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yeah, that will be correct. If I recall correctly, yes.

Page 6283

1 Q. And you remembered quite clearly when the Prosecutor asked you

2 about the time. How long did you stand there, or to be more precise, were

3 you asked to go behind the hangar while they were still going in, or

4 sometime later?

5 A. Yes, I can -- I can answer that. Yes, they were still getting

6 into the hangar, yes.

7 Q. 15 or 20 minutes later you left to go back. At this point in time

8 you spot my client, but there are no more people entering the hangar?

9 A. That's correct, sir. Yes.

10 Q. When you went behind the hangar, or on your way back from there,

11 did you see in the area outside the hangar entrance any other military

12 officer, before you went and after you returned?

13 A. Before going over there I -- I didn't see any officers at all.

14 Coming back, I did see my -- Major Sljivancanin.

15 Q. Aside from him, did you see any other JNA officer in that area or

16 inside the hangar?

17 A. No, sir, I don't recall seeing any of them.

18 Q. When you returned from behind the hangar, or before you went

19 behind the hangar, did you see any people from that group from the bus

20 being separated off and being left outside the hangar? Do you remember a

21 scene like that?

22 A. No, sir, I don't recall that. No.

23 Q. You saw my client, as you say, in passing. As you passed him, it

24 was a short glimpse. You say you exchanged greetings. Can I hear that in

25 our language, please? How did you greet this officer?

Page 6284

1 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I object to the question. This witness's

2 testimony is not that he had a short glimpse of Major Sljivancanin. He

3 didn't use those words at all.

4 JUDGE PARKER: We do appreciate that, Mr. Smith.

5 Carry on, Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It wasn't my intention to suggest

7 that. We all know what the witness said.

8 Q. But can you please use our language to tell me exactly what you

9 said to Mr. Sljivancanin, if you remember?

10 A. If I -- well, if I recall correctly, I think I said, "Hi," or in

11 our language -- I don't know. I don't know exactly words that I used, but

12 I think I said, "Hi." I did greet him in a certain way. I can't remember

13 exactly the words that I used.

14 Q. He was a major who impressed you over the first two days by his

15 behaviour as a proper JNA officer. Don't tell me you said, "Hi."

16 A. [Previous translation continues] ... again I can't say exactly the

17 words that I used, but it would be more in respect towards that person,

18 that's for sure.

19 Q. You go from there to the hangar, right?

20 A. That's correct, sir, yes.

21 Q. You spent some time inside the hangar; we'll get to that later.

22 On your way out of the hangar, and later on, did you see my client again

23 anywhere? Let's clarify that first, please.

24 A. No, sir. After that, no, I didn't see him at all.

25 Q. Did you get into the hangar smoothly, or was there someone

Page 6285

1 standing at the door who had to allow you to get in?

2 A. No, sir. There was -- I don't think -- there was nobody at the

3 door. As far as I remember. Maybe from inside, if I can remember, but

4 I'm not sure. But, no, you didn't have to ask anybody to get in. No.

5 Q. While testifying in chief you said one of the reasons for you

6 going to Ovcara, among other things, was in order to see what had become

7 of that man you had recognised on the bus. Did you look for this person

8 inside the hangar? Did you learn anything about this person's

9 whereabouts? Did you see that person inside the hangar? What happened

10 with that?

11 A. No, I haven't seen him in hangar. And apparently speaking to him

12 after all the things that happened, he never ended up in -- in that hangar

13 at all.

14 Q. Did you look for him?

15 A. I did look for him, yes.

16 Q. Do you remember what the entrance was like, what type of door?

17 Was it a sliding door, or the usual kind, was it a metal door, a wooden

18 door?

19 A. [Previous translation continues] ... metal door.

20 Q. How long were you inside the hangar before you took D out? First

21 as far as the hangar door, and then the exit to the entire compound?

22 A. I don't think that was a very long time that I was inside. I

23 can't -- again, I can't put some time-frame on it, but it wouldn't be a

24 very long time at all. No.

25 Q. You were always perfectly willing to provide time-frames when

Page 6286

1 prompted by the OTP, and yet you don't seem as willing to provide any for

2 me. Some of your recollections seem to be remarkably detailed and some

3 just aren't. Can you please give us an approximate idea, a very rough

4 idea of how long you stayed inside the hangar?

5 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

6 Q. How long were you outside the hangar before you left Ovcara the

7 first time around? What do you think?

8 A. I don't know. Half an hour, 45 minutes. I don't know exactly.

9 Q. Just to make one correction. Your previous answer on page 73,

10 line 6, was not recorded. You said half an hour inside the hangar,

11 roughly speaking; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember when you took D out of the hangar, were there

14 people standing outside already who had been taken out by this friend of

15 yours, or anybody else, and how many people? Can you remember anything

16 about that?

17 A. If I would remember correctly, I think it was three of them.

18 Q. What about the next period of time while you were standing outside

19 the hangar? Was anybody else taken out throughout that time?

20 A. It is a possibility, but nobody was put to stand over there, as

21 far as I can remember. That's a possibility. I -- I wasn't paying

22 attention what people are doing. Because people are coming in and out.

23 It was just a big chaos, I would say, at that point. A lot of soldiers

24 coming in and coming out. So I -- I -- no, I can't recall. Or I don't

25 know. I can't say. No.

Page 6287

1 Q. While you were inside the hangar, did you see anyone beat anyone

2 else?

3 A. While I was inside I did not see anybody being beaten.

4 Q. Did you hear sounds of beating while you were outside the hangar?

5 A. You mean when I was standing with these people outside? No, sir.

6 No. I could hear threats, people, you know, kind of -- you know, making

7 threats maybe to somebody, but no, I haven't -- I haven't heard anybody

8 screaming or any -- any yelling that somebody was beaten at that point,

9 no.

10 Q. Did you perhaps hear the sound of a whistle being blown while you

11 were outside the hangar or inside the hangar? The sound of a whistle from

12 inside the hangar, to be more precise.

13 A. No, sir, I don't recall that. No.

14 Q. While you were inside the hangar, and once outside the hangar, do

15 you remember a JNA officer arriving, or a group of JNA officers?

16 A. No, sir, I don't recall any JNA officers at that time. Not at

17 all.

18 Q. While standing outside the hangar with that group of people, did

19 you see a group comprising about 10 men wearing clubs and helmets go into

20 the hangar?

21 A. [Previous translation continues] ... No.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we briefly go into private

23 session, please.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

25 [Private session]

Page 6288











11 Page 6288 redacted. Private session.















Page 6289

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You are testifying under oath, sir. You don't have to answer the

19 following question. It will be up to the Chamber to decide whether you

20 have to or not. Did you beat anyone at Ovcara?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. If I told you that together with Goran Mugosa you beat person D,

23 after which you took him out of the hangar and questioned him about his

24 possible involvement in combat operations. If I told you that this is

25 what he stated before a Tribunal in Zagreb, then my question is as

Page 6290

1 follows: Do you think you would have reason to believe in that case that

2 he had rubbed you up the wrong way or anything like that?

3 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

4 Q. You didn't beat him then?

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. The previous answer, page 77, line 3, you said no, he would have

7 had no reason.

8 Did you ever clash with D after what happened in 1991?

9 A. [Previous translation continues] ... No, I never had any conflicts

10 with him before or after.

11 Q. Were I to tell you that perhaps you were part of the security

12 detail behind the hangar, but that what is certain is that you were part

13 of the security detail in front of the hangar and that you were letting

14 people in and out, would you say that I'm wrong?

15 A. That's not true.

16 Q. Were I to tell you that you were insulting people, calling Croats

17 who were standing outside the hangar with D Ustashas, saying you wanted

18 revenge, and specifically that you wanted to kill a man, your uncle who

19 worked with the Autobacka company, would I be wrong about that too?

20 A. First of all, I don't have an uncle in Autobacka; and no, that's

21 not true. I don't know where you get that information.

22 Q. The Court knows full well where I get my information. We have

23 heard testimony before this Court about all these facts that I'm now

24 asking you about.

25 MR. SMITH: I object to that, Your Honour. In relation to this

Page 6291

1 witness being involved in any beating of a detainee, I don't believe the

2 Court's heard any evidence about that at all. There was some evidence

3 about the possibility of insults being made, but certainly not a beating.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's true. My apologies

6 to the OTP.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Be a little more careful, please.

8 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, Your Honour.

9 [Interpretation] I confronted the witness with the allegations of

10 one particular person in relation to the beating. That's why I asked him

11 about his relationship with that person.

12 Q. Your first interview with the OTP -- just a minute, please. With

13 the OTP investigators occurred in your place of residence on the 17th of

14 November, 1997. You talked to Mr. Dzuro Vladimir, who was an

15 investigator. Do you remember that? This was an informal conversation,

16 if you like.

17 A. Yes, I believe -- I remember that.

18 Q. At the time he told you how he was able to reach you, that a man

19 from the bus had identified you, and then you talked about the barracks,

20 right?

21 A. Yeah. He spoke about the person inside the barracks that I

22 recognised, yes.

23 Q. You did not sign any statement on that occasion, did you?

24 A. Yeah, that's correct, yes.

25 Q. Do you remember if on that occasion perhaps you stated to the

Page 6292

1 investigator that you had no idea where the buses went to or was this

2 something that wasn't discussed at all, this particular topic?

3 A. [Previous translation continues] ... No.

4 Q. Years after these events you were still living in Vukovar. You

5 said you -- you were under a lot of pressure, and you said that you were

6 particularly afraid of people who believed you to be in possession of a

7 certain type of information, right?

8 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

9 Q. You will agree with me that in January 1998 Croatia, Eastern

10 Slavonia and Vukovar were integrated into the Croatian state, right?

11 A. That's correct, yes.

12 Q. In January 1998 you could no longer cope with it. You decide to

13 leave town, exactly at this point in time, when Croats were about to start

14 returning, right?

15 A. No, I decided on time, but I still had a job at that time, and I

16 was working over there.

17 Q. But this was only a month or so after the investigator had tracked

18 you down, right?

19 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

20 Q. The answer is, "That's correct, yes." Page 79, line 18.

21 Based on your 1998 statement, February 1998 statement, I assume

22 that as soon as you left for this other country, you called the OTP

23 investigator and this is when the statement was compiled that we went

24 through today, right?

25 A. That's when I spoke to them. At that time, yes.

Page 6293

1 Q. Were you afraid that one of the returning Croats might identify

2 you, those returning to Vukovar, since you had been at Velepromet carrying

3 a rifle, you had been spotted at the barracks at Ovcara wearing a military

4 uniform, and yet all these years, although you were afraid, you kept on

5 living in that same town?

6 A. You can speculate on that as much as you would --

7 Q. Would you call my conclusion wrong?

8 A. [Previous translation continues] ... for me, it was -- I wanted to

9 have a better life, for me and my family. That's all I care about, is me

10 and my family.

11 Q. That is perfectly understandable, but that's not what your 1998

12 statement reflects. Let us now go back to your statement, or rather a

13 portion of your statement. Just a moment, please.

14 Page 11: "[In English] (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 My question: You leave in 1998. At the time Croats are returning

20 to Vukovar, and Serbs are leaving Vukovar on a massive scale. Wouldn't

21 that seem to be the case?

22 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I haven't seen any exodus of

23 people going out.

24 Q. Sir, can you just please slow down a little, because of the

25 interpretation? Page 80, line 21, first you said: "You can say that

Page 6294

1 way."

2 Fine. At any rate, the decision to leave Vukovar was formally

3 taken in January 1998. After your first contact with people from the OTP,

4 right?

5 A. No. My initial thinking of leaving that country in total was in

6 1990, which I was denied, going through Belgrade. And then I always

7 wanted to go somewhere else. And finally I got my chance to do it, after

8 five years applying.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go into private session?

10 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6295











11 Page 6295 redacted. Private session.















Page 6296

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm about to move on to my final

13 questions.

14 Q. You can answer yes or no, please. The OTP investigators informed

15 you that you had been identified by a person at the barracks as someone

16 standing outside a bus, right?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. You were also identified by two victims from Ovcara. They said

19 they had seen you outside the hangar. Did you know about this?

20 A. I know one, yes.

21 Q. At one point in time you were standing guard in Velepromet

22 carrying a rifle, weren't you?

23 A. That's correct, sir. Yes.

24 Q. Late in 1997 and early 1998 the Croats began to return and the

25 Serbs started to leave Vukovar; is that right?

Page 6297

1 A. I don't know, sir. I can only speculate on that. I don't know.

2 Q. You had to explain to the OTP, and you did, how you got to be at

3 Velepromet standing guard, how you ended up in the barracks, and how you

4 ended up at Ovcara. You explained that the OTP, and to the Court here,

5 right?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. As for your presence in Velepromet, Ovcara and the barracks, this

8 can only be confirmed by B, who died back in 1993, right?

9 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 Q. Anyone else to confirm your version of the story?

11 A. I spent most of the time with him. I -- I don't know, sir.

12 Q. Again, there is an answer missing on page 84, line 8. The witness

13 said: "[In English] Yes, unfortunately so."

14 [Interpretation] That was your answer, right?

15 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

16 Q. Sir, I put it to you that you were never mobilised into Vukovar's

17 TO by force. In fact, you volunteered. Am I wrong?

18 A. [Interpretation] Yes, you are.

19 Q. And when the OTP talked to you in the presence of those persons -

20 we are in public session, I won't mention those persons - you needed

21 something, you needed to have something to give them, right?

22 MR. SMITH: I object, Your Honour. The question is just a bit

23 unclear.

24 JUDGE PARKER: I think I got the message.

25 Did you follow that question?

Page 6298

1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think the OTP got it. I think the

3 OTP understand very well what I'm talking about.

4 Q. I am putting it to you, sir, that you needed some information to

5 give the OTP because of problems that you yourself might have encountered

6 and because of the status that you wanted to attain at the time. That was

7 why you gave the story that you did, and this was background against which

8 you placed my client somewhere where he had never been. Is that right?

9 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 Q. But the only person who could possibly confirm this is the late B,

11 right?

12 A. I think so, yes.

13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I finish with my examination.

14 Sorry, again. [Interpretation] The answer on page 85, line 9, the

15 witness said: "You are wrong."

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, thank you very much.

17 Mr. Smith.

18 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. Just a few questions in

19 re-examination.

20 Re-examination by Mr. Smith:

21 Q. Witness --

22 MR. SMITH: And perhaps we can go to private session for this

23 first series of questions, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.


Page 6299

1 Q. Witness, you said that --

2 THE REGISTRAR: One second, please.

3 MR. SMITH: Sorry.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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Page 6300











11 Page 6300 redacted. Private session.















Page 6301











11 Page 6301 redacted. Private session.















Page 6302

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.


8 Q. And, Witness, it was also put to you that in your prior statement

9 that you believed that there was a white vehicle that you thought may have

10 belonged to the Red Cross, you believed belonged to the Red Cross, at the

11 time that you saw Major Sljivancanin at the Vukovar Hospital?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did that --

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Did that vehicle have any markings on it?

16 A. No -- I can't remember exactly, but it was some kind of white

17 vehicle that would associate -- well, to me that would look like a

18 hospital vehicle. Usually hospital vehicles or medical vehicles are --

19 were white.

20 Q. And that was the basis for you saying that it -- you believed it

21 may have been from the Red Cross; is that right?

22 A. That's what I -- that's what I believed, yes.

23 Q. And have you got any further information to say that it was from

24 the Red Cross, apart from the fact that it was a white vehicle and you

25 believed it possibly could --

Page 6303

1 A. No, sir, no.

2 Q. And do you remember where that white vehicle was parked?

3 A. I believe inside, inside the compound of the hospital. I believe.

4 Q. And if I can just ask you to look at your prior statement, if we

5 can go to page 7. There is perhaps a little confusion, and hopefully it's

6 just not on my part, in relation to when you saw Major Sljivancanin the

7 second time at the JNA barracks. And perhaps to clarify whether or not

8 there is a discrepancy between what you testified to and your prior

9 statement, I think the best way of going it is to read a couple of

10 paragraphs into the record, and I'll ask you whether or not you agree with

11 that statement.

12 If you can go to page 7, and if you can read the last paragraph of

13 page 7.

14 A. "I went with him again, and when we arrived at the barracks it was

15 perhaps about 30 minutes after we had left from Petrova Gora. It was this

16 time the scene changed dramatically. There were now five or six buses

17 parked in a semicircle in the driveway of the barracks. There was a large

18 number of JNA soldiers around. The military police would not allow us to

19 drive up where the buses where stopped, so we parked on the driveway near

20 the entrance of the Vukovar-Negoslavci road. We then walked up to where

21 the buses were located."

22 Q. And if you can continue for the first two sentences of the next

23 paragraph, please.

24 A. "As we approached the buses, I saw four ranking JNA officers

25 standing in the middle of the circle formed by the driveway not far from

Page 6304

1 where the buses were parked. The only one of those officers that I

2 recognised was a Major Sljivancanin."

3 Q. Is that a correct account of what you -- of what you saw?

4 A. As we walked -- as far as I can remember, yes, we walked inside,

5 the officers were over there already, at that point.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. SMITH: And Your Honour, if we can briefly go back into

8 private session.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

10 MR. SMITH: Witness, you testified that --

11 THE REGISTRAR: One second, please.

12 MR. SMITH: Sorry.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 6305

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23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 MR. SMITH: If we could place Exhibit 287 on the screen, please.

Page 6306

1 That's the one the witness has marked. That's the Ovcara photo.

2 Perhaps I'll just ask a few other questions while it's being

3 prepared.

4 Q. Witness, you testified that Zarko Amidzic asked you to join the

5 Territorial Defence and person B objected to that. And you also testified

6 that subsequent to that objection two soldiers took you to another

7 headquarters of Territorial Defence to get a uniform and a weapon. Is

8 that correct?

9 A. That's correct, sir.

10 Q. If those two soldiers hadn't requested you to join the Territorial

11 Defence, would you have done so?

12 A. I don't think so at that point, no, sir. I don't think so.

13 Q. You also testified that there was a few incidents of restaurants

14 being blown up in Vukovar before you left for Belgrade in July 1991; is

15 that correct?

16 A. Yes, sir. Yes, that's correct. Yes.

17 Q. And how many incidents do you know of of that occurring?

18 A. I have -- I have heard at least for two, at least.

19 Q. And your family was receiving threats because you believed they

20 were because of your ethnicity, Serb ethnicity, and you said threats were

21 received by others. About how many other people do you know had received

22 similar threats to that in which you -- your family received?

23 A. I would not know the number, but I -- again, I heard the rumours,

24 I believe that -- I heard what people -- what people are saying. I don't

25 know is it true or not. But I can only say on my example, because I know

Page 6307

1 what happened to us.

2 Q. And you also testified that -- and I believe you were talking

3 about Velepromet, that allegations were being made against Croats or men

4 that were brought to Velepromet off the buses, that they had been involved

5 in war crimes or some sort of crimes against the population. Do you

6 remember saying that?

7 A. Yes, sir. I remember that.

8 Q. Who was making those allegations? Can you explain the type of

9 people that were making them?

10 A. It would be mostly Territorial Defence soldiers that were walking

11 around the buses, or -- mostly local people, I would say.

12 Q. And you -- once those allegations were made, did you see what

13 happened to any of those people that the allegations were made against?

14 A. They were taken off the buses, and, as I said, most of the people

15 were just separated at -- at that point of time. Women were separated on

16 one side and men separated on the other side. But some people will be

17 smacked or -- as they are exiting bus, but nobody -- nobody hardly hurt at

18 that -- like, as they exited over there.

19 Q. Now, if we can look at the photograph on the screen, this is

20 Exhibit 257. On the exhibit you made a marking, which was the one on the

21 left-hand side with a cross. Sorry, it's 287. And you marked that as the

22 mid-point between what you believed to be the yellow house and the hangar.

23 Do you remember making that marking?

24 A. Yes, sir, I do remember.

25 Q. And you also stated that you parked closer to the hangar than that

Page 6308

1 midway point. Do you remember stating that?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. And on this -- on this photograph can you mark with a -- say, a

4 figure A, of the place which you can remember that you parked?

5 A. Somewhere over there. It's very small.

6 Q. You've placed a rectangle, a blue rectangle?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 288.


12 Q. And, Witness, you were also asked whether or not the four civilian

13 masked men that beat you up in January 1991, whether or not they were

14 prosecuted by the authorities in Vukovar. Do you remember stating that?

15 A. I remember the question, yes.

16 Q. Could you identify those men, the ones that beat you up?

17 A. No, sir, I'm not able to.

18 Q. Did you know whether the authorities ever had the ability to

19 identify them as well?

20 A. Not to my knowledge, no.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

23 There is just one matter that I will speak to my friend Mr. Lukic

24 about in relation to the allegation, but that, perhaps, can be raised on

25 Monday. The witness doesn't need to be there for that -- here for that.

Page 6309

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

2 The Chamber, and I am sure the witness, is grateful to counsel for

3 their efficient handling of the issues.

4 I would thank you, sir, for your attendance, for your assistance

5 in what you have been able to say. And you will be pleased to know that

6 concludes your evidence and you are now free to return to your home.

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: We now adjourn until Monday at 2.15.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Vasic.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] We've overstepped the mark already.

12 Could I just have a minute, please, to briefly deal with something?

13 JUDGE PARKER: It cannot wait until Monday?

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps it could, but I just

15 wanted to set a wrong right, something that Mr. Moore might have done at

16 the expense of my learned friend Mr. Borovic.

17 Thank you very much, Your Honours. I believe that you have

18 received our joint motion on agreed facts. That's the first matter. If

19 you look at that, it is indicated quite clearly that what my learned

20 friend Mr. Moore was talking about -- well, it was not only about

21 Mr. Borovic, it was about a joint position taken by all the Defence teams.

22 This is something we refuse to include, because the point was outside the

23 indictment. This is 5961 on the transcript, lines 21 and -- 20 and 21.

24 Your Honours, I hope and believe that I have been brief enough.

25 JUDGE PARKER: You've been brief, and we've got the point. Thank

Page 6310

1 you.

2 We adjourn now and resume on Monday at 2.15.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day of March,

5 2006, at 2.15 p.m.