Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6479

1 Friday, 24 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Mr. Moore.

6 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much, indeed.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry that we had a mechanical problem which

8 delayed the start a little. It's yet to be proved to have been overcome,

9 I gather.

10 MR. MOORE: May I just deal with a preliminary matter before we

11 call Ambassador Kypr. It was the topic that I mentioned on Tuesday

12 evening in relation to the case for Sljivancanin, whether in actual fact

13 the challenge was that Sljivancanin was at the JNA barracks and/or at

14 Ovcara, and I think my learned friend reserved his position until this

15 morning. I wonder, perhaps, if he could clarify that. It's clearly an

16 important issue, because it goes to notice as well as other matters.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, good

19 morning to all.

20 I had a look at the transcript. I must say, I had to go several

21 times through that first portion referred to by Mr. Moore in order to

22 understand what he meant. I hope that now I have a clearer understanding

23 of the issue that he raised.

24 First of all, as a matter of principle, I oppose such questions

25 being asked by the OTP in the middle of the courtroom in the absence of

Page 6480

1 the witness. This is entirely outside Rule 90(H). Allow me to clarify

2 this. In keeping with my duties, I confronted the witness in no uncertain

3 terms with the position of the Defence teams. The Chamber realised what

4 the question was, the witness answered, the witness was examined on this

5 issue on redirect. I think that we fully complied with all our

6 obligations. After the witness had left the courtroom, Mr. Moore raised

7 this issue requiring us to declare our position. Outside the context of

8 this witness's testimony, I do not think the Defence is bound to share

9 this sort of matter with the OTP at this stage of our proceedings.

10 What the Defence could do about this was done at the pre-trial

11 stage. I do not wish to leave my friend Mr. Moore entirely in the dark

12 about this. Therefore, I will direct him to go back to the pre-trial

13 brief for Mr. Sljivancanin, paragraph 118, and check that again.

14 Mr. Sljivancanin's Defence made our position perfectly clear in relation

15 to Mr. Sljivancanin's presence at the barracks, at the Velepromet meeting,

16 since that appears to have been one of the issues raised in the OTP's

17 pre-trial brief, as well as at Ovcara.

18 I do not wish to waste any more time on this. I believe our

19 position was made crystal clear in our pre-trial brief. The Chamber fully

20 accepts and understands our position. There were no further instructions

21 issued by the Chamber regarding these issues, and I believe we have

22 complied with all our obligations vis-a-vis the Prosecution. This is,

23 once again, paragraph 118 of the Defence pre-trial brief.

24 Since we have already broached this subject, I would also

25 recommend that they go to 120 and 121 of the pre-trial brief, of

Page 6481

1 Veselin Sljivancanin's pre-trial brief. We made it perfectly clear in

2 those paragraphs that the OTP's theory about Mr. Sljivancanin's presence

3 at the barracks, the one that follows from their pre-trial brief, and

4 Mr. Mrksic's alleged order being passed on to Mr. Sljivancanin for the

5 transport to Ovcara referred to in paragraph 120 of the Prosecution's

6 pre-trial brief seems to be corroborated by the testimony of a certain

7 witness; this is Witness 64. There is no need for me to say his name.

8 Apparently he offered corroboration for this theory of the Prosecution.

9 In our pre-trial brief, we clearly indicated that if you look at

10 the summary of that witness's testimony, more specifically paragraph 9, at

11 least the way the OTP seems to be interpreting that particular paragraph,

12 that witness hasn't the foggiest idea that the buses ever left for Ovcara

13 to begin with. Now the OTP wants us to clarify several matters, whereas

14 their own theory at the pre-trial stage has remained unclear to say the

15 least.

16 This is a matter for further evidence, however, and we shall be

17 saying more about it when the time comes. However, I do believe that

18 firstly there is no obligation on our part to clarify this position to the

19 OTP, since it is quite clear from our pre-trial brief. B, we are

20 duty-bound to clearly familiarise the witness with all these matters and

21 confront him with our theory and not to leave him in the dark about these

22 details.

23 Thank you.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, would you please sit down.

25 MR. MOORE: Yes, of course.

Page 6482

1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, this not -- this was raised not as an

2 issue about compliance or non-compliance with rules, and it's not a matter

3 which involves any consideration of whether it's appropriate that this be

4 raised in the presence of the witness or not. I think you are seeing far

5 more behind the question than is really intended.

6 I'm putting myself, for a moment, in the position of Mr. Moore.

7 He read the transcript of the questions and said, now, is it really that

8 they are saying the major was not at the barracks and not at Ovcara at

9 all; or are they saying the witness was wrong about certain things he said

10 happened there. It was a point of clarification.

11 What is in your original pre-trial brief may well provide an

12 answer, I don't know, because I haven't looked back to it for this reason.

13 But even if it's in your original pre-trial brief, as the trial proceeds

14 it's quite possible that you change your position as more evidence becomes

15 known, et cetera.

16 So I think it's a fairly simple and uncomplicated and unsinister

17 question that's being asked. Are you saying you were there or not. And

18 Mr. Moore just asked, could you just make that clear. He might well have

19 seen the confusion at the very end of the evidence and raised it then

20 while the witness was here, but I think he was fairly frank in saying,

21 look, when I go back and study the transcript, I'm not altogether clear,

22 could it be clarified.

23 I think you could say in half a dozen words whether your client

24 was, in your case, at Ovcara or at the barracks or even at Velepromet, if

25 you want to. Would you mind just helping us by saying that?

Page 6483

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. I will do as

2 you have ruled, which I fully respect. I just wanted to put forward my

3 own position. I don't think this is the place or time to exchange this

4 sort of comment between the parties. But the position of

5 Mr. Sljivancanin, which is quite clear, based on the pre-trial brief, is

6 that he was not at the barracks on the 20th at the time relevant to this

7 indictment. His position is that he was not present at the Velepromet

8 meeting. I believe the OTP have gathered as much since they have seem to

9 have given up on a number of witnesses in relation to that and he was not

10 at Ovcara. We were crystal clear about this in the paragraph that I

11 quoted.

12 I do agree with you that should evidence arise that might drive us

13 to change our positions, we might want do so and we shall certainly

14 clarify any further changes in our position to the Prosecution. But I

15 believe our case is very often perfectly clear when we actually

16 cross-examine witnesses. Much more so, in fact, that on some of the

17 agreed facts. That is our position. We leave no witnesses in the dark

18 and make our position perfectly clear to each and every one of then.

19 Mr. Sljivancanin was at the hospital, that is part of the agreed facts

20 now, but he was not at the barracks and not at Ovcara on the 20th of

21 November.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Are you happy with the note?

23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, sir.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic. We understand that

25 your position is unchanged from the pre-trial brief. It is your case that

Page 6484

1 your client was not at the barracks, not at Ovcara, and if it matters, for

2 the moment, not at Velepromet at the times that are relevant.

3 Now, Mr. Moore, that, I think, is what you sought?

4 MR. MOORE: Yes, it is. Thank you very much. Nothing more than

5 that.

6 JUDGE PARKER: We can have the witness, can we?

7 MR. MOORE: Yes, please. Ambassador Kypr.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir. Before you get comfortable,

11 could you please stand and take the card that's offered you and read aloud

12 the affirmation.

13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly swear that I will speak the truth, the

14 whole truth and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down. Now

16 Mr. Moore will be putting questions to you for a time.

17 Mr. Moore.

18 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.


20 Examination by Mr. Moore:

21 Q. What is your full name, please.

22 A. My full name is Petr Kypr.

23 Q. I think it's right to say that you are of Czech nationality; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6485

1 Q. That you are currently a diplomat?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that in actual fact you are an ambassador; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. May I deal just, please, with certain aspects of your background.

6 I think it's -- is it right to say that you were employed as an analyst

7 prior to 1990?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In what capacity was that? Apart from just analysing, what were

10 you analysing specifically?

11 A. Frankly, from 1990 I was -- I passed the public competition to the

12 foreign ministry. Then I was sent almost immediately after few days only,

13 I was sent to the EC Monitoring Commission to the front line in former

14 Croatia, and then I came back and I worked as analyst within the institute

15 of international relations, which is a part of our ministry of foreign

16 affairs.

17 Q. Can I just try and break it up so that we understand? I think

18 it's right it say that you were sent to the ECMM monitoring mission in

19 Zagreb. I think that was in July 1991. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. I believe in December 1991 you returned to Prague and you were an

22 analyst then, I think, for the ministry of foreign affairs; is that

23 correct?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Please pause between question and answer. Thank

25 you.

Page 6486


2 Q. Then in 1992 you were appointed ambassador in Slovenia; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And your -- if I may the use the phrase, your tour of duty was

6 from 1992 until 1997?

7 A. Yeah, from 1992 -- yes.

8 Q. I think it's also correct to say that you speak seven languages?

9 A. Approximately.

10 Q. And one of the reasons that you were sent there was because of

11 your linguistic skills in the Balkans; is that right?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. In 1997, is it also correct you were then appointed the director

14 for the academy of the ministry of foreign affairs, I think you were

15 responsible for setting it up?

16 A. Yes, it's true.

17 Q. Would you be kind enough, in very short terms or order, explain to

18 us, please, what you had to do?

19 A. You mean the academy?

20 Q. Yes. How you had to set up and what were the responsibilities.

21 A. Because before I served in Slovenia as ambassador for almost five

22 years, three years only alone with my wife, so I know almost all the

23 diplomatic business, so I was probably the best person to establish a

24 diplomatic academy which should prepare new diplomats for the new Czech

25 diplomacy.

Page 6487

1 Q. Thank you very much. I'm going to pause because while we are

2 speaking in English, there has to be a translation.

3 Then in 1998, is it right you were appointed the ambassador to

4 Norway?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that appointment was until, I believe, 2003 [realtime

7 transcript read in error "1993"]?

8 A. Yes, it's true.

9 Q. Then 2003 I think it's right again that you were appointed --

10 A. There is a mistake in the written translation. There is 1993, so

11 it was 2003.

12 Q. Yes, indeed, the question is 2003.

13 Then in 2003 I think it's right that you returned?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you became head of the analytical department?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that was the ministry of foreign affairs?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And recently you have been appointed ambassador to another

20 country, and I'm not going to mention that, as I think it has not been

21 officially announced; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is correct.

23 Q. Right. Thank you very much.

24 May I just deal, then, please, with the period of 1991? I think

25 it's right to say you told us that you went to Zagreb to the ECMM; is that

Page 6488

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, the ECMM, so that everybody knows - and of course the Court

4 do know - stands for the European Community Monitoring Mission; is that

5 right?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I don't know if this is a course that

8 would meet the Court's approval, the ambassador falls into a slightly

9 unusual category. As he was a monitor, there are a number of documents

10 which I would seek to refer to in part or in whole, and perhaps seek to

11 present them as exhibits. But he also has a witness statement where there

12 is reference to the documents and they are in the context, I was going to

13 make application that he have his statement in front of him so that there

14 is the continuity in relation to the documents and his evidence. I don't

15 know if that would meet with the Court's approval and my learned friends'

16 approval.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we will see whether there is any obvious

18 concern. It would seem to me to be help everybody to be able to follow

19 documents in evidence. I see general concurrence on the faces of counsel.

20 It has the concurrence of the Chamber, Mr. Moore.

21 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. There are two copies for the

22 witness. One is in English. May I pass that forward? And if he is

23 really lucky, he can have the Czech copy as well.

24 THE WITNESS: Okay, thank you.


Page 6489

1 Q. But could we try and work in English, because the paragraphs are

2 the same.

3 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, again, what I have had done, we have got

4 a number of the documents in the electronic filing system in the court,

5 but we also have prepared hard copies for the Chamber if they would wish

6 to have that. And I've got them also for the Defence, if that would help.

7 So I can hand those out, and we will of course call them up on to the

8 electronic screen, produce them as we would, but sometimes hard copies are

9 easier to deal with.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

11 MR. MOORE: Can they perhaps now be handed out, please?

12 Q. Ambassador, would you be kind enough, please, to turn up your

13 statement?

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. I think it's right it say, if we just deal with bottom right-hand

16 corner, I'm going to refer to the -- what's called the ERN number because

17 of the records. If you look at the bottom right-hand corner I'll give you

18 the last three numbers, which here are 685. Is it on your statement or

19 not?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. Excellent. Can we just deal with the first large paragraph. If I

22 abbreviate it in the following way, I think it's right to say that there

23 were a number of documents to which you had access, that you submitted

24 them to the ICTY investigator Vladimir Dzuro, and some of those documents

25 which you have submitted are copies of original ECMM documents which you

Page 6490

1 completed; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And it's also photocopied. May we deal then, please, with

4 page 686? Again, linguistic remarks and abbreviations. We've also dealt

5 with ECMM, which stands for European Community Monitoring Mission; ICRC,

6 obviously International Committee of the Red Cross; MSF, Medecins sans

7 Frontieres; and ICTY is obvious?

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. And it's right to say that for the understanding of the documents

10 that you have compiled -- or it has been compiled a short glossary which

11 can be found at divider, I hope, 2. So you have the documents, you were

12 given a file. Would you be kind enough, please, to turn up divider 2?

13 A. Yes, there are abbreviations.

14 Q. Again, it has the ERN number 1392?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour forgive me one moment?

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MR. MOORE: I'm told perhaps it's prudent to call out all the

19 numbers. The ERN number is 00381392, 00381393 in the English. I'm quite

20 prepared to provide to the registry a copy of this index, which may assist

21 in due course for accuracy.

22 Q. Can we deal, then, please, with the abbreviation?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. We can see first MD relates to 1st Military District?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6491

1 Q. And perhaps for the assistance of others many of the abbreviations

2 are perfectly obvious. But LO is one that is used, liaison officer. And

3 then we've got other matters which can be referred to in due course.

4 And turning the page, 1393, again, we have got RDE, we stands for

5 roles of engagement, or I suspect rules of engagement. And these are

6 abbreviations which are used, as far as you are aware, throughout the

7 documentation. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is. But there were even other abbreviations as well.

9 Q. I have little doubt of that, but we'll deal with those as we

10 proceed.

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Moore, to establish a pattern, you've

14 referred to this document, could it be tendered at this moment and dealt

15 with?

16 MR. MOORE: Yes. I think probably the best course is to exhibit

17 it as I go along. Otherwise what tends to happen --

18 JUDGE PARKER: Electronically it will be a nightmare if you don't.

19 MR. MOORE: Well, I will tender the documents as I go along. It

20 will be rather slow, but at least it will be efficient.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. This will be received. That's tab 2.

22 THE REGISTRAR: This will be exhibit number 302, Your Honours.

23 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

24 Q. If we just turn over to tab 3 we can deal with this very briefly.

25 I think it's right it say that this is a structure in relation to the way

Page 6492

1 the ECMM was -- the hierarchy; would that be right or not?

2 A. Yes, it's right.

3 Q. And we can see that your position is DHRCB?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What exactly does that stand for, please?

6 A. It means that I was more or less advisor to the head of Belgrade

7 centre. Belgrade centre means Belgrade centre of European Community

8 Monitoring Mission, which was established in September 1991.

9 Q. Thank you. And in relation to that, we can see that there are

10 various teams that are referred to. Who was the head of the Belgrade

11 mission?

12 A. The head of the Belgrade mission was from, very beginning,

13 Ambassador Perrin.

14 Q. Thank you. I just want to deal with Mr. Cunningham. We have got

15 CM?

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. And we can see clearly that he's on the left-hand side. It's

18 right to say, is it not, that Mr. Cunningham was a former army officer --

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. -- of the Canadian army?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I think you operated with him on several occasions.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in particular in Vukovar where I think he headed the

25 monitoring mission at that time. And we'll deal with that in due course.

Page 6493

1 A. Yeah, Colonel Cunningham was a very experienced man from his

2 previous military life. So the mission relies on them very much. It's

3 why he was appointed as a chief of monitor, so he was responsible for the

4 whole -- well, work of monitors.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, the number there relates to ERN 00381390,

7 00381390, although I see it's 91, but I just wish to have the document of

8 90 before the Court as an exhibit.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Could you please have clarified whether this was

10 the organisation at a particular place or for the whole of the region of

11 the ECMM.


13 Q. You have heard the learned Judge's question. This is clearly a

14 structure. We will be hearing about Ilok and other villages and then

15 Vukovar. When and where did this particular structure apply, can you tell

16 us, if we deal with the time-scale August through to November?

17 A. As I do remember, this structure was built in the beginning of

18 September, when the regional centre was established in Belgrade, because

19 until that time it was only in Zagreb. And then the mission recognised

20 that it's necessary to have more places covered, so we established -- we,

21 or European Community Monitoring Mission established centers in Belgrade

22 and Sarajevo and in Split, if I remember well.

23 Q. Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And this will be received.

25 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

Page 6494

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 303.


3 Q. I would like to deal, then, with a period when you went to Ilok.

4 Now can we turn over to divider 4, please?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the document that I wish to refer to is L0053771, which is a

7 translation. It's a final version of a draft concluding in 3772. Can we

8 just look at the English version of that, please?

9 JUDGE PARKER: It's not at tab 4, Mr. Moore.

10 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I have certainly -- I don't know if the

11 Ambassador has. I have got it in B/C/S -- will Your Honour forgive me one

12 moment?

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]

14 MR. MOORE: Does Your Honour have the document which says 34693?

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 MR. MOORE: One is a draft and one is a final document. It should

17 be a document dated the 16th of August, 1991.

18 JUDGE PARKER: We certainly have 03034693. And I am asked,

19 Mr. Moore, if you could be careful to give all the digits, because without

20 all the digits the computer won't recognise just the last few.

21 MR. MOORE: Certainly, I will do that.

22 JUDGE PARKER: And the other one we have at tab 4 is 00381350.

23 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, the document that you have referred to,

24 or I have referred to, the 3771 was an original draft, and then it became

25 a full translation, which should conclude in 03034693, and I think I am

Page 6495

1 right in saying that the Court has got that document.

2 JUDGE PARKER: As I said, we have that document.

3 MR. MOORE: It's the same. They've got two numbers, one is a

4 draft and one is a final document.

5 JUDGE PARKER: But we have only two documents in the tab. One of

6 them is the original, and this is -- and the number you are dealing with

7 is the English translation.

8 MR. MOORE: Yes. I wish to deal with the English translation.


10 MR. MOORE: Which is 03034693.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Just to confirm for the assistance of counsel, it

12 is tab 4.


14 Q. Have you got that document, Ambassador? Ilok urban community?

15 A. Yes. But I do have a draft translation in my version.

16 Q. Thank you very much. We'll deal with that, in any event, because

17 they are the same. Often we have draft and then final documents.

18 Can we deal, please, with the document itself? Is it Ilok urban

19 community?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. Is the date Ilok, the 16th of August, 1991?

22 A. Yeah, in original copy that is the -- this date.

23 Q. And then I think it's the government of the Republic of Croatia?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And there is a letter, "Dear Mr. Budisa"; is that correct?

Page 6496

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us, please, where this letter came from? If we look

3 at the following page, we can see -- or on the same page, it's Anto ...

4 A. We got this letter, it means Belgrade's regional centre of ECMM.

5 We got this letter through Zagreb. It was probably sent by fax or I don't

6 know what is the source, but it is from Zagreb.

7 Q. Thank you very much. And --

8 A. From Zagreb. Exactly from our headquarters in Zagreb.

9 Q. Thank you. And it's -- it reads: "We take the liberty." May I

10 move to the -- "We take the liberty of sending this letter to you in your

11 capacity of a member, the cease-fire monitoring mission, in order to

12 acquaint you with the situation in Ilok. Since we live in the most

13 easterly part of the Republic of Croatia, which has been recently been

14 encircled by the army, we believe there is a great danger of an army

15 attack on the town."

16 And the letter then goes on to refer to two serious incidents and

17 then refers to the incidents themselves.

18 Can we go to the bottom of the draft translation to help you? The

19 reference is: "We intend to remain peaceful too, but we are prepared to

20 defend ourselves to the last man if it should be necessary. We have

21 negotiated with army representatives on several occasions, in our opinion

22 with minimal results."

23 And then finally: "A fortnight ago we evacuated the majority of

24 the town's women and children to our coast and to Germany."

25 Now, can we just deal with the Ilok matter. As a direct

Page 6497

1 consequence of the situation at Ilok, not only from this letter but from

2 other letters, is it right to say that the ECMM then visited Ilok?

3 A. Yes. We sent our teams many times. Practically immediately -- I

4 remember that first team I was not a member of, was there sent the 11th or

5 the 12th of ...

6 Q. Thank you. Could we then turn to tab 5?

7 JUDGE PARKER: Are you tendering this?

8 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, for my part, I wasn't going to tender it.

9 Merely refer to it for assistance.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Fine, yes.

11 MR. MOORE: And then move on to the next document, otherwise we'll

12 have a large number of documents in the exhibit list.

13 Q. But if we move to tab 5, and I will be seeking to tender this.

14 Tab 5 is 0302 --

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, indeed, Mr. Vasic.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18 Regarding the previous document, I also expected that my learned

19 colleague would tender that into evidence, so I didn't initiate this

20 question earlier, which needs to be clarified, and it's related to the

21 witness's answers.

22 If you look at the English translation of this previous document,

23 03034693, in the upper right-hand corner it states "VJ, Yugoslav army,

24 15th March 1996." In the original I don't see that text, so perhaps my

25 learned friend could clarify that. Is there a mistake in the translation

Page 6498

1 of this document perhaps, or it's something else, and the Defence has no

2 way of knowing what it is. The witness already told us about the way in

3 which he received this document.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, if you look at the original, are there

5 not in the top right-hand quarter some handwritten markings? And are they

6 not what is appearing on the translation in typed commencing with the

7 word, "Handwritten."

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence sees that

9 there is something written in the upper right-hand corner but we are not

10 able to read it. That's why I asked this question. It says

11 "Vojska Jugoslavija," Yugoslav army. I don't see that there. It's

12 possible that it is written there. That's why I wanted my learned friend

13 to clarify whether this was a translation mistake or we were just not

14 aware or informed about the markings in the original document.

15 JUDGE PARKER: The witness may or may not be able to help,

16 Mr. Moore.

17 MR. MOORE: I think with regard to the handwritten, "Ky," if my

18 memory serves me correctly, it's handwritten denoting the exhibits, so it

19 would be "Ky" for Kypr and then with a stroke and then the number given.

20 And indeed it is a feature you will find, I think, through all the

21 exhibits that Ky -- so he is the producing witness, that is my

22 understanding of the additional marks. But if that is not correct and my

23 learned friend speaks to me at the adjournment, I will attempt to clarify,

24 but that is my understanding of it.

25 JUDGE PARKER: The words "Yugoslav army," or "VJ," Mr. Moore.

Page 6499

1 MR. MOORE: With regard Yugoslav army and VJ, I'm afraid I am not

2 able to assist. I don't know if Ambassador Kypr will know.

3 Q. Do you know, Ambassador where the phrase "Yugoslav army," where

4 that --

5 A. No, it is not in original text. And I agree that those

6 written -- handwritten remarks are from my first witness statement only

7 to mark those documents, so it has no sense to translate it as Yugoslav

8 army, so I think that it can be easily deleted, because it is a mistake in

9 translation, as I understand. But it's up to the Court.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Are you saying, Ambassador, that these are your own

11 handwritten notes?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: I see. And you acknowledge that they don't help

14 anybody about the content of the document? They're for your purposes?

15 THE WITNESS: Not for my -- sorry, Your Honour. Not for my

16 purposes. It was for a purpose for the first witness protocol or for

17 witness statement.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, yes. All right.

19 MR. MOORE: To assist my learned friend is the way I'm trying to

20 adduce the evidence is to marry up the witness statement which refers to

21 the exhibit number Ky 1, or 2, or 11, with the documents and taking it in

22 sequence. So that they were handwritten at the time for clarification.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. So if you go back to the index at the

24 beginning of the folder, you see Ky-I-1.

25 THE WITNESS: Correct.

Page 6500

1 JUDGE PARKER: And that is for purpose of preparing -- it's

2 proofing notes, basically, Mr. Vasic. Does that help you? The mystery

3 solved?

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Thank you.

6 I'm grateful for that, Mr. Moore. Now, you're moving on.

7 MR. MOORE: Yes.

8 JUDGE PARKER: But can I remind you, please, to give all of the

9 digits of the ERN number. Like me, you tend to drop out the zeros at the

10 beginning.

11 MR. MOORE: I do. Does the Court require it in B/C/S as well?

12 JUDGE PARKER: For the electronic system, yes. Any document you

13 are tendering, whatever its language, the full ERN number is the only way

14 that the court officer can find it. He doesn't have a folder, so he can't

15 check it that way. He's got to have the right number.

16 MR. MOORE: All right. Thank you very much.

17 May we move to tab 5? I'll give out the full ERN number,

18 which might -- ERN 00381351, 00381351, that's in B/C/S. And then in

19 English, 03029175, 03029175. I hope that that's right. It's got a

20 handwritten Ky-I/2.

21 Q. Can we just deal with this document, please? I'd like to deal

22 with the document in English, 03029175. We can see the date of the

23 document, top left-hand corner, is the 16th of October?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That seems when it was actually transmitted. But the letter

Page 6501

1 itself is dated, Vukovar, 13th of October, 1991. Have you got that there,

2 Ambassador?

3 A. I don't know what is the source of this document. Sure we were

4 now in the very centre of Vukovar in that time, so --

5 Q. Can we just please deal with the question? We can see if the

6 Republic of Croatia, Municipality of Vukovar?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. Gives the details, gives class?

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. And then we've got Vukovar, 13th of October, not November, 13th of

11 October, 1991?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. It is then directed to the various parties, we can see?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Various presidents. Subject is the mediation by the observers'

16 mission from the area of the town of Ilok and the surrounding villages at

17 request. And if we look at bottom right-hand corner, we can see that it

18 is signed by Marin Vidic, Bili. You have that document in front of you;

19 is that right?

20 A. Yes, it's right.

21 Q. Let's just deal, then, please, with certain parts of the document.

22 "[Initially] part of the municipality of Vukovar with the town of Ilok

23 and the surrounding villages are mainly populated by Croatian inhabitants.

24 So far, in the course of the armed clashes in the area of the municipality

25 of Vukovar, the town of Ilok and surrounding villages have been spared

Page 6502

1 from the conflict with the Yugo-army. As the Yugo-army suffered defeats

2 in the western part of the municipality of Vukovar, it stepped up

3 activities and, without any cause whatsoever, plunged into destructive

4 activities in the eastern part, in the villages of Bapska, Sarengrad and

5 Lovas."

6 And there then is reference to the level of destruction and the

7 population of 6.300 inhabitants in the town of Ilok growing to about

8 15.000. I won't go on to any other aspect of the document itself. Not

9 because we don't accept it being true, but merely for time considerations.

10 But as far as you are aware, is it right to say that at that time

11 in and around the early part of October, there was concern within the ECMM

12 to visit those villages and Ilok?

13 A. Yes, it was.

14 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, can I tender that document as an exhibit,

15 please?

16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 304.


19 Q. Now, may I move, then, please, to tab 6, which precedes it in

20 time. Let me just read out the number. It is 00381353, 00381356. Then

21 at 03033656, 03033658, and 03040101. And for the English 00366920,

22 00366920.

23 Now, I think it's right to say that this is a document which is

24 handwritten. Could we turn to divider 6, please, a handwritten document.

25 I don't think you've got it there.

Page 6503

1 A. Yeah, I've got it.

2 Q. Thank you very much. It's team 7, and we've got the various

3 names. Is -- are those people part of the ECMM monitoring mission?

4 A. Yes, they are.

5 Q. And we've got the names. And we've got mission Ilok. And we've

6 got the 8th of October.

7 May I just deal then, please, with certain parts of it, although I

8 will seek to tender the document as a whole. There are the various

9 details of timings in paragraph 1. Could you just stick on the -- this

10 page, please?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Then page 2, meeting with the authorities of Ilok --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- and with the JNA. And we've got what are called generalities.

15 And if we look at subparagraph A3?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Well, actually subparagraph A2 is probably the starting point.

18 The population of seven villages amount to, give or take, 15.000 people.

19 And immediately above that there are the references to the villages in

20 what could be called the Ilok area.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So Ilok, Sarengrad, Bapska, Mohovo, Opatovac, Lovac, and Tovarnik.

23 And then subparagraph 3 there are the nationalities being described, or

24 perhaps ethnicities. What was the percentage given, please, for Croats in

25 this general area?

Page 6504

1 A. There is written 65.7 per cent of Croats.

2 Q. Can we turn over, then, please, and we'll deal with what's

3 described as the current situation existing on the 8th of October. Would

4 you be kind enough, please, to read out b, subparagraph 1?

5 A. "All villages have been attacked by like JNA except Ilok and most

6 of the population is now concentrated in Ilok and in difficult

7 conditions."

8 Q. And if we move on to paragraph 2, are you able to read it, or

9 would you wish me to do it?

10 A. I do have some problems because I passed an eye surgery last

11 week -- last month, so ...

12 Q. Well, with the Court's leave, I will read it. "Ilok is completely

13 surrounded by the JNA. Electricity, water and communications are cut off.

14 For the time being, they have sufficient stocks of food, but the" -- I'm

15 not sure what that word is, "supply from Backa Palanka and Sid is

16 completely cut. There are shortages of medicines and baby food. There

17 are four doctors in Ilok."

18 May we move on to subsection (3). "Three months ago there were

19 three mortar attacks by the JNA. Since then there have been several

20 ultimatums asking them that the CNG should leave the villages and give

21 back weapons. After these ultimatums, villages were attacked and

22 shelled."

23 I wonder if we could be kind enough, please, to turn up the large

24 map that we use.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

Page 6505

1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm sorry to interrupt my

3 learned friend, but what I would like to know is whether on page 25,

4 line 18, when he quoted this paragraph 3, did he perhaps unintentionally

5 omit -- "[In English] --

6 JUDGE PARKER: It is "minor" and, I think mortar was used.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 MR. MOORE: My apologies. Can we turn, then, please, to

9 Exhibit 156?

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, at the moment the court officer has a

12 problem that may have moved from Judge Van Den Wyngaert's computer to his.

13 A technician is coming. It means that at the moment he cannot open any of

14 these exhibits. He can view them, we have them in paper, we can carry on,

15 but he can't put them up on the screen at the moment. He also points out

16 that at least with the last exhibit you tendered only the English and not

17 also the B/C/S original. Did you want both?

18 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, may I speak honestly and plainly for a

19 moment?

20 JUDGE PARKER: You usually do, Mr. Moore.

21 MR. MOORE: If I'm going to tender a document, and my learned -- I

22 know that the registry have been fantastically helpful, but I think we

23 have given them the index of the numbers. Surely it's not necessary to

24 read out all the numbers. If I do one and, let us say it is the English

25 version, it can be assumed, surely, that the B/C/S can be loaded into the

Page 6506

1 computer without this rather strange system.

2 JUDGE PARKER: It can be, but it must be clear on the record

3 whether you tender both the English and the B/C/S, or merely the English.

4 MR. MOORE: Well, can I just say then say that I will tender all

5 documents, whether in B/C/S --

6 JUDGE PARKER: In both languages.

7 MR. MOORE: -- and English from now on.

8 JUDGE PARKER: That, I think, can be accomplished.

9 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE PARKER: We will carry on with paper at the moment. And we

11 will have then, only one exhibit number for both languages.

12 MR. MOORE: Yes, that's excellent. Thank you very much.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Moore. As long as you can without it

14 on the screen.

15 MR. MOORE: Yes.

16 Q. I'd like to refer the Ambassador to Exhibit 103. That is the

17 large group of maps. We have a copy for him, if he would be kind

18 enough -- perhaps that could be passed to him, please. I believe this map

19 can be shown on the screen, the electronic version, anyway.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Not at the moment, because the earlier problem is

21 being dealt with.

22 MR. MOORE: Yes.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Ah, on the ELMO, we can.


25 Q. Ambassador, would you be kind enough, please, to look at this map?

Page 6507

1 I'm hoping that it will show principally two colours. A yellow and an

2 orangey-pink colour. Can we just look, please, at the yellow, which

3 denotes Croatia?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And look at the been right-hand corner. We can see Ilok,

6 Sarengrad, Lovas, and Bapska. Can you remember where the other villages

7 that are mentioned on that document that you have in front of you, the 8th

8 of October, the villages there are mentioned. You've got Ilok, Sarengrad,

9 Bapska, Mohovo, do you know where --

10 A. It is in one of documents in tab number 6. There is a map which

11 is -- which is, I think, more details.

12 Q. Yes, I agree with that. But we -- we have got a coloured version,

13 and therefore if you can trans -- transmit --

14 A. Okay. So Opatovac and Mohovo are somewhere here. Tovarnik is

15 here.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, with regard to the -- the mission that you had,

17 or when I say "you" I mean plurally the ECMM, were you able to visit all

18 the villages that were mentioned on this occasion?

19 A. Not all of them each time. Sometimes we went only to Sarengrad,

20 the other team was able to -- to go to other places. So it depend on the

21 conditions and time.

22 Q. Let's return to the handwritten document.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You have already referred to the ultimatums that, if we look at

25 number 3, have you got that there? Left-hand side.

Page 6508

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. Current -- "current situation." So it's tab 6, handwritten. I

3 don't think it's that document. The one we were on. So we've

4 got: "Current situation." Paragraph -- subparagraph 3, starting: "Three

5 months ago." Where I had already mentioned 2.

6 A. Yeah, this is.

7 Q. Which is "minor."

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. Now, at the end of that paragraph: "After this ultimatums,

10 villages were attacked and shelled."

11 And there is reference to an ultimatum being given. And the

12 document says: "See annex C."

13 Now, I hope that, if one goes to the back of tab 6, we should be

14 able to see a document which comes from the army to the people of Bapska.

15 And the number, ERN number is 00366920. Would you be kind enough,

16 Ambassador, please, to turn -- keep your hand on that handwritten page,

17 and then go to the back of that tab? And it should read: "From the army

18 to the people of Bapska."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can we just deal with Bapska? And I'll read it again to assist

21 you. To the residents of Bapska. And from the army to the people of

22 Bapska. "For some period of time now, JNA units stationed in the

23 municipality of Vukovar" --

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

Page 6509

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry to be interrupting all the

2 time, but there's something that I would like to notice. In the original

3 document, if that is indeed what the B/C/S version is, it does not

4 say "from the army to the people of Bapska." It just says in the original

5 document: "The local inhabitants of Bapska."

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

7 MR. MOORE: Well, perhaps my learned friend can assist me, because

8 the bottom right-hand part of the document says: "On behalf of the JNA,"

9 and then there's Major -- which the name is illegible. But in any event,

10 if I read the document, and I'm sure it can be dealt with by

11 cross-examination.

12 Q. "For some period of time now, JNA units stationed in the

13 municipality of Vukovar have been subjected to attacks by the ZNG, MUP and

14 armed civilians.

15 "Since the residence [sic] of your village of Bapska were

16 peaceful and did not cause any problems to JNA units, we assume that there

17 will be no problems. We request the following: By 4.00 p.m. collect all

18 the weapons in the village and bring it to Vikjaca where a body of the JNA

19 will be waiting. Two, insofar as this is not done, your village will

20 cease to exist on a geographical map. If you in any way hold up Tomic

21 Borislav so that he does not return with your reply by 3.00 p.m. we will

22 assume that you did not receive this ultimatum. Four, insofar as you do

23 not wish to complete this ultimatum at 3.00 p.m. along with Tomic

24 Borislav, inform us of this through your representative to whom we

25 guarantee a safe return no matter of the success or failure of this

Page 6510

1 ultimatum."

2 And I have a date, the 28th of -- in the translation, the 28th of

3 September, 1991. And it appears to be on behalf of the JNA, and then

4 there is a major, and the signature is illegible. Is that right,

5 Ambassador, or not?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. And just for completeness sake, I can see that there is a fax

8 particular up at the top, October the 15th, 1991. I don't know if it's on

9 everyone's copy. And there is a reference to it. It seems to be in

10 Zagreb. Now, do you know where this document has come from?

11 A. This document was a part of the file of -- of the report of

12 team 7, Simmons, Rodrigues, Martinez who went to Ilok and surroundings.

13 It's all I can say about it.

14 Q. Thank you very much. I'm not going to refer to paragraphs 4

15 and 5.

16 Can we deal with just paragraph 6? Again: "At present, the

17 people of Ilok are living under a big stress. I think it's fearing that

18 the JNA might attack in the coming days."

19 Now, can we deal, then, please, turning the page, which is 1355,

20 it's the same document. We can see top right-hand corner, three of seven.

21 It's subsection C, and it is the visit of Sarengrad. Could you read out,

22 please, what the findings were when they visited Sarengrad, where we have

23 located that?

24 A. "We visited also the neighbouring village of Sarengrad, which was

25 heavily damaged." I can't read it. Maybe in -- there is some transcript.

Page 6511

1 Q. I think it says actually: "The nuns of the convent have left for

2 Ilok convent."

3 A. Yes, I agree.

4 Q. May we deal, then, please, with the miscellaneous items that were

5 referred to in respect of the Ilok and the surrounding area? Can we deal

6 with evacuation? Are you able to read what it says there, please?

7 A. Yes. "Some people would like to be evacuated as soon as possible.

8 Others would rather be evacuated when an attack is imminent or had

9 taken" -- I can't --

10 Q. Taken place?

11 A. "Taken place."

12 Q. If I deal with 2 and 3, and I abbreviate, not trying to put any

13 slant on it at all, just for completeness, there seems to have been that

14 there was a meeting organised between the JNA and local authorities to

15 discuss the situation, and after your visit at Ilok, you met -- the ECMM

16 met the JNA colonel's secretary whose unnamed who gave assurance that the

17 village wouldn't be attacked and at the moment they were trying to restore

18 supply of water and electricity. However, can we deal then finally,

19 please, with the conclusions?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Conclusions, number 7a: "Arrangements at high level should be

22 made to arrange an evacuation." And then in upper case letters: "As soon

23 as possible." Is that right?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. And then for continuity on the exhibits: "b, a team should be

Page 6512

1 sent in two to three days to assess" -- presumably assess on the

2 situation. "The team should get in touch both with the local authorities

3 and with the JNA."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The following page there is reference to other visits to -- I see

6 my learned friend is raising.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. -- there is peace in the world. Carry on,

8 Mr. Moore.

9 MR. MOORE: And at page 1356 there is reference to an agreement

10 with a JNA liaison officer.

11 Your Honour, I'd seek to make the handwritten report, which I have

12 referred to, then the map, which is in much more detail and refers to the

13 actual locations that were visited as an exhibit. And also the -- what I

14 will call the Bapska ultimatum in B/C/S and English, I seem them to be

15 made an exhibit.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Is that the whole of the documents that are in

17 tab 6?

18 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, it's not -- there are translations, and

19 the only one that I was going to -- the ones that I was going to deal with

20 were the -- the handwritten document, the Bapska ultimatum.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Well, then, you must give the poor court officer

22 each ERN number that you are tendering page by page, Mr. Moore.

23 MR. MOORE: I will. Well, then, the ERN number will be 00381353,

24 54, 55, 56, 1358, 1359 and 00366920. Those would be the only documents

25 that I would seek to tender as an exhibit, unless my learned friends want

Page 6513

1 some others.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I seem to

5 have jumped the gun a moment ago, but now I will give you the position of

6 the Defence team. We are, for the time being, challenging the

7 authenticity of this document, which I will call the same as Mr. Moore, an

8 ultimatum to destroy the village of Bapska, dated the 28th of September

9 1991.

10 We propose that it be given an identification number now. We have

11 no objection to the other document that the Prosecution has tendered with

12 the exception of this one. The explanation is this seems to be a

13 handwritten document with no stamps or even any indication of whoever

14 received this document. We will probably bring this up in

15 cross-examination with this witness to see how exactly the witness

16 submitted the document to the OTP and then we shall be expecting the OTP

17 to confirm the authenticity of this document. We will be running our own

18 checks, too. Based on the original document, there is a conversation with

19 a colonel, there is reference there to a major, we don't know which one

20 exactly. So for the time being, our position is where we cannot have this

21 admitted without prior checks.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, the document is tendered as part of an

23 ECMM report. The report itself is verified. Therefore, it is admissable

24 as such.

25 Now, your point, and an important one, is whether it can be relied

Page 6514

1 on. Whether it is genuine or not. Now, that can be dealt with in

2 cross-examination. And it may be that it will be shown to be not a true

3 document or other evidence may confirm that it is what it purports to be.

4 But in terms of admissibility, rather than the weight that can be attached

5 to it, it is properly tendered as part of the present report. That leaves

6 you entirely free to deal with the weight, if any, that should attach to

7 it for our purposes later in the trial. Understand?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do. I do, Your Honour. Completely.

9 I do have to make a comment, however. The Zagreb agreement,

10 likewise, was a document submitted by the European Community Monitoring

11 Mission. We challenged the document based on Mr. Raseta's signature. It

12 was only marked for identification because of the misgivings surrounding

13 its authenticity, and it is the same kind of verification that we would

14 like to have now, although that document, too, was originally sourced from

15 the European Community Monitoring Mission.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, you are testing my memory at the moment

17 and, as always, it's likely to be different. But that, if I remember, was

18 tendered separately and solely as a document, whereas this is tendered as

19 report, and one of the parts of the report happens to be this document.

20 Because the agreement was tendered entirely separately as a document, we

21 were able for everybody's peace of mind to say, all right, we will hold

22 that document at the moment until it can be looked at. Strictly we could

23 have done with that what we are doing now with this report and this

24 document. The end result is the same. You have clearly indicated you

25 dispute the authenticity of the document so that it is an issue which has

Page 6515

1 to be weighed. And in the end, whatever the evidence about the document

2 and its authenticity turns out to be, the Chamber will have to evaluate

3 that. So the end result, I think you will find, is the same.

4 This group of documents will be received as an exhibit.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the first group of documents will

6 receive the exhibit number 305, while the ultimatum will receive exhibit

7 number 306.

8 MR. MOORE: May we now move on to tab 7, because the last -- the

9 last document was dated the 8th of October and referred to about a

10 follow-up mission.

11 Q. Ambassador, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to tab 7?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. MOORE: May I just read out all the numbers?

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I know interruptions are not helpful,

16 but it is now that I understand nothing at all. It is now that the OTP is

17 tendering the document as a follow-up. I thought it was supposed to be

18 part of 306, that it would have been tendered as part of 306.

19 JUDGE PARKER: The whole of the document, the report including the

20 ultimatum, is one exhibit. I think the court officer is trying to be

21 helpful. So it will all be the one exhibit, 305.

22 Mr. Moore.

23 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

24 Q. Ambassador, would you be kind enough, as I say, to turn up tab 7.

25 A. Yes.

Page 6516

1 Q. We've got -- the date is the 12th of October, and I will be

2 seeking to produce all these documents in B/C/S and English as exhibits.

3 May I just refer to the ERN numbers at the very outset. 00381361, 62, 63,

4 and 64. The translation of that is 03034006, 07, 08. And then there is

5 reference to what has been called an agreement. The ERN number of that, I

6 hope, will be L003498, L0043498. But there is a draft in being, which the

7 Ambassador will have, and I will deal with that.

8 But if I may just deal, please, with the original document, the

9 first document, dated the 12th of October. We have got the names and

10 nationalities. We have got your name. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. And who else travelled with you, please?

13 A. It was Mr. Finakaliotis from Greece; and Waters, United Kingdom.

14 Q. And what was the task on the 12th of October?

15 A. To visit Ilok and -- I can't read it. And speak about supply of

16 water and electricity, number of refugees, food, medicine, supplies and so

17 on.

18 Q. Thank you. I think it's right to say that you went at 8.00 in the

19 morning, came back at 7.00 at night?

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. And there are other details that are mentioned. For example,

22 meeting, I think, with the JNA.

23 Can we deal, then, please, with the following page, top right-hand

24 corner, we can see 2 of 3. It's says: "Report of RCB." Have you got

25 that? It's a handwritten document?

Page 6517

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It should start --

3 A. Yeah, "Report of RCB." I hardly can read it, sorry.

4 Q. Team number 6?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And we can see there there's the reference to the 12th of

7 the 10th. The objective stroked out, but it is visit to Ilok. And then

8 there is references to the contacts at that time, the JNA?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. There is a name of the colonel. Can you read the name of the

11 colonel, please?

12 A. Colonel Grahovac.

13 Q. Then there is meeting of members of the Ilok community. There's

14 references to their names, police authorities, Red Cross local

15 representative and medical doctors; is that right?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Now can we deal with the paragraphs as they're numbered. So I

18 want to deal with paragraph 1. I'll read, if it assists, and I hope I

19 read correctly: "Situation (as reported to us) regarding Ilok is

20 surrounded by the JNA who have gradually taken control of neighbouring

21 villages."

22 It appears to then read: "The non-Serbian population have

23 concentrated in Ilok, (estimated 15.000). Water, electricity supplies are

24 intermittent."

25 It refers to low water pressure and food and especially medical

Page 6518

1 supplies, or medicine supplies are becoming scarce. We were supplied by

2 both sides with a copy of the ultimatum by the JNA made on the 11th of

3 October to the people of Ilok. "The ultimatum," which is called an

4 agreement in our annex, "was made under the authority of the JNA, and we

5 were told by the Ilok community that the officer in charge of the military

6 district ..."

7 Can you tell us his name, please?

8 A. General Arandjelovic.

9 Q. And then there is reference at paragraph 3. I think it

10 is: "Discussions with the town council revealed that they intend to have

11 a referendum on the 13th of October about whether to evacuate the town in

12 face of the threat from the JNA. Many people felt that evacuation was

13 inevitable because they were surrounded by superior forces. We were

14 specifically asked to make contact with the Croatian authorities in

15 Zagreb."

16 And then it goes on in the following page, top right-hand corner,

17 3 of 4. I think it is: "Make arrangements for a convoy of evacuees to

18 proceed westwards with Croatia under Red Cross supervision along with EC

19 monitors observing."

20 Is that right?

21 A. Yes, it's right.

22 Q. Can we deal with 4: "We were told of minefields (laid by both

23 sides) and of incidents in surrounding villages where Serbian

24 nationalists," if that's what it is.

25 A. Yes.

Page 6519

1 Q. "... have allegedly made attacks. We were told that 7.000 people

2 have had medical treatment, and so medical supplies (normally obtained

3 from the main hospitals in Vukovar or Novi Sad) are now unobtainable. The

4 refugees were interviewed (many from the village of Lovas) who have been

5 in Ilok for up to 20 days told us that they had lived peacefully with

6 their Serbian neighbours (many have been in the district since 1945) but

7 they have now felt they could not do so in the future."

8 And I think it is right to say that it was the conclusion that

9 there was no damage. "There has been no damage."

10 What is the next word, are you able to say? "Noticed" --

11 A. Written --

12 Q. Looks like the word "noticed."

13 JUDGE PARKER: It is "noticed."

14 THE WITNESS: "Noticed."


16 Q. "... by us in the town and we did not see any evidence of heavy

17 weapons and only Territorial Defence men with light arms."

18 Can I just deal with the -- we didn't see any evidence of heavy

19 weapons, only Territorial Defence men with light arms. Are we referring

20 to -- or who are we referring to? What group are we talking about when we

21 are referring to light arms and no evidence of heavy weapons?

22 A. I believe that it is the report about the situation within city

23 Ilok and it is the Territorial Defence of city Ilok.

24 Q. Thank you. Then there is reference: "During our visit, there was

25 a continuous sound of artillery fire, which the JNA colonel admitted came

Page 6520

1 from the Vukovar direction."

2 And then there is various suggestions which I wasn't going to go

3 into, references to meetings and the involvement of the Red Cross.

4 And then finally: "Further visits by monitors necessary,

5 particularly on 14th of October."

6 That is right, I think, is it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That was the report. Can we just deal, then, please, with, I

9 hope, the number, it should refer to the agreement itself. Can you just

10 turn over, please? I think that's it. You've got a draft version,

11 unfortunately. Can we go to the very start of it.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I hope it should read: "Following the initiative of the

14 inhabitants."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. "The inhabitants to hand over the weapons, ammunition, mines,

17 explosives held by citizens or paramilitary formations. The following

18 agreement was reached at the meeting of the representatives of Ilok and

19 the JNA held on the 11th of October."

20 I will just deal with it, if I may, in the summary. Paragraph 1

21 there is reference to: "All local citizens and paramilitary organisations

22 will hand all weapons, ammunition and MES regardless of the manner of the

23 requisition to the military police unit. To safe entry" --

24 JUDGE THELIN: Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Moore. Are you reading

25 from a version that we don't have?

Page 6521

1 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, the difficulty that I have is actually as

2 follows: I have got a draft version, as indeed the witness has. But

3 there was an amended version, which the witness does not have but the

4 Court has. I believe that in actual fact they should be very similar.

5 Perhaps the way that we could deal with it is to give the witness this

6 document which he hasn't got in his bundle and I can read it in that way.

7 JUDGE THELIN: It is more helpful if he has the same as we have.

8 MR. MOORE: It certainly is; I have no doubts of that.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would like to note that they

10 don't have the documents either and that they possibly could be placed on

11 the ELMO. Thank you.


13 Q. Can we deal, if we just -- it's the same document with a slightly

14 different translation. Can we deal with 2, please.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. "A safe entry to Ilok and searches of all private, public and

17 state-owned buildings in Ilok as locations where weapons, ammunition and

18 MES have been left, forgotten or hidden."

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down. Thank you.


21 Q. "... shall be made possible."

22 Then 3: "Weapons, ammunition and MES."

23 I see that there is a concern by my learned friend about

24 something.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

Page 6522

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. My learned friend might be

2 reading a trifle too fast. I am receiving interpretation, it is just

3 still on the accurate side, if I may put it that way. But what my learned

4 friend started quoting on line 41, lines 10 through 11. "[In English] ...

5 state-owned buildings ..."

6 [Interpretation] And the continuation is, I think it should be

7 read out: "As a place where ammunition was left behind, abandoned or

8 forgotten, as well as mines and explosives."

9 My colleague has omitted to read out this portion, and I think it

10 would only be fair to confront the witness with that too.

11 MR. MOORE: Well, I can certainly read out the whole agreement,

12 but I am trying to abbreviate as best I can. If my friend wants me to

13 read out the whole agreement, then I will do so. But for the Prosecution

14 purpose we only require really three or four points.

15 JUDGE PARKER: We are continuing to have a number of difficulties,

16 Mr. Moore, with the process and the procedure. It's slowing us all down,

17 and I think it's unsatisfactory from many view-points.

18 We have reached the point where the tape will require that we

19 adjourn now for 20 minutes. Can I suggest that first, with the court

20 officer, you try and discuss a procedure that will enable him to bring the

21 document -- identify it, and bring it up on the screen. That will enable

22 the interpreters to follow it, because they are having a difficulty

23 following your reading, especially because your reading is only part of

24 documents, even parts of sentences and paragraphs. I know you are trying

25 to focus on what matters to you, but in so doing you are of course

Page 6523

1 producing a problem for the Defence. That might be discussed with counsel

2 for the Defence.

3 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Will 20 minutes be adequate for us to improve the

5 system, or shall we give you 25 or 30 minutes, do you think?

6 MR. MOORE: I would have thought 20 minutes would be fine.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

8 We will adjourn now for 20 minutes, and hopefully we can come to a

9 more satisfactory arrangement for everybody.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.47 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

13 MR. MOORE: Well, Your Honour, I can make no promises, but my

14 understanding is as follows: That the registry was given a list of

15 documents that we were calling. We have always presented them in the way

16 that a tab, if I may use that, a tab number would refer to an exhibit.

17 And that exhibit, therefore, would perhaps contain three or four

18 documents. And I think that was a misunderstanding, perhaps, between my

19 learned friend Ms. D'Angelo and the registry.

20 Perhaps the best way of dealing with it is as follows: I

21 understand my learned friends would like for their clients the B/C/S

22 version to be put on the electronic screen so they can follow it. The

23 difficulty we have, and I think it's just with e-court generally, is that

24 if I put the B/C/S version on the screen, then the interpreters cannot see

25 the English version, because you cannot do it simultaneously, and therein

Page 6524

1 lies the difficulty. And I also believe that e-court was not working for

2 some of the screens this morning for about 50 per cent of the time.

3 So I, for my part, will call out the numbers for the B/C/S, and I

4 will try and go slowly for the interpreters. The difficulty is that I try

5 and use part of a document rather than all of a document, to focus on the

6 points that I believe are important, and I will try and deal with it as

7 tightly as I can if there are paragraphs numbered.

8 The other --

9 JUDGE PARKER: Can I say, interrupting you, just so that the point

10 is not lost. Quite obviously it's a waste of everybody's time if you read

11 the whole of every document.

12 MR. MOORE: Yes.

13 JUDGE PARKER: If you want to emphasise particular parts, you

14 should at least try to read a full sentence, a full paragraph --

15 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

16 JUDGE PARKER: -- rather than a part of it, so that the sense of

17 that part is conveyed.

18 MR. MOORE: Yes, I'm quite happy to do that.

19 JUDGE PARKER: If then other parts of the document are seen by

20 Defence counsel to be important, they can be referred to in

21 cross-examination. What is potentially dangerous is for you to read only

22 part of a sentence and leave the balance, which may have a different

23 emphasis, unsaid.

24 MR. MOORE: Yes, of course.

25 JUDGE PARKER: And that, I think, will go a long way to helping

Page 6525

1 Mr. Vasic. And it will probably help the interpreters as well.

2 MR. MOORE: Can I make one further suggestion?

3 Ms. D'Angelo has got her own brilliant system for putting the ERN

4 numbers and the translations, because one of the problems that we have

5 encountered is that often with translated documents they can have three or

6 four numbers, and you can have, quite literally, I'm looking at one, where

7 there are five groups of numbers which are needed for the electronic

8 screen.

9 I wonder if it might be prudent, if the numbers are to be referred

10 to, if Ms. D'Angelo would be permitted to call out the numbers that apply.

11 I know that she's spoken to the registry about that. Because I think

12 there is a level of uncertainty about the actual index itself and the

13 understanding from the registry's perspective.

14 JUDGE PARKER: If that will help convey what's in your minds to

15 the registry, I think it will be a good idea.

16 Now, Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] While we're still warming up, what is

18 important is that our clients understand the witness's testimony. One

19 thing I asked the OTP during the break, they have provided a copy each for

20 the Defence teams. Can these binders please be provided for our clients

21 too, especially when we come to documents relating directly to Vukovar?

22 It will be important for our clients to follow closely. I don't think it

23 should be a problem to provide these during the next break, because we are

24 now sharing with our clients our own binders. It is essential for each of

25 the accused to follow the proceedings closely, just as it is for us in

Page 6526

1 order to conduct our cross-examination.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, I don't know at all whether that will be

3 practical and feasible for that to be done. That's a matter which can be

4 sorted out between counsel. But Mr. Moore will now be calling out the

5 B/C/S numbers and they should appear on the screen, which will enable your

6 clients to see the documents as we go.

7 That is the correct understanding, is it, Mr. Moore?

8 MR. MOORE: Yes, it is.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Perhaps we can get along with

10 the evidence, as the poor ambassador who has been waiting patiently.

11 MR. MOORE: I will deal with the agreement. In English the number

12 that I have for that is 00583520, and the B/C/S number is 00381364. If

13 that, perhaps, could be put on the screen to assist the defendants.

14 Now, I've got it on my screen, but it's very bad. The focus --

15 there is no focus at all. Could my learned friends please clarify whether

16 their defendants can see the document or not? It seems that they can.

17 Q. Can we deal, then, please, with this agreement, and I'll continue

18 with it. So it's the agreement, I've called out the number and the B/C/S

19 number. Paragraph 1: "All citizens and paramilitary organisations shall

20 surrender all weapons, ammunition and MES regardless of the manner in

21 which they have been obtained by 1200 hours on the 12th of October, 1991,

22 to the military police unit of the 1st" -- it seems to be an

23 interpretation: "Military district."

24 Paragraph 2: "Safe entry to Ilok and searches of all private,

25 public and state-owned buildings in Ilok as locations where weapons,

Page 6527

1 ammunition, and MES have been left, forgotten or hidden shall be made

2 possible. Weapons, ammunition and MES may be retained only by the Ilok

3 police station in the number and quantity corresponding to the inventory

4 list," apparently which was compiled on the 1st of January, 1989.

5 I'll pause for interpretation.

6 "The JNA hereby undertakes the obligation not to inquire about the

7 source and not to sanction the owners in any way, and to conduct the

8 searches strictly according to the Law on Criminal Procedure of SFRY."

9 It would appear, then, that 5, and there seems to be an element of

10 doubt in relation to the translation: "The surrender shall take place

11 on 12" -- with a handwritten correction: "14th October, 1991, at 1200

12 hours at the location of the 25th of May from the direction of Ilok

13 whereas the searches shall be conducted between the 12th and 15th of

14 October. The JNA units shall secure the occupation of the town and

15 establish the local command which shall ensure peace until the situation

16 has stabilised."

17 And then finally, and I abbreviate, there is the clause that

18 says: "If the use of weapons are endangering the security of the JNA

19 personnel, measures shall be taken pursuant to the decision of the Supreme

20 Command staff on retaliatory measures."

21 And it is apparently signed or authorised.

22 May we ask for that document, please, or those documents relating

23 to the 12th of October to be made an exhibit?

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

Page 6528

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] In relation to this document, I

2 believe there are several problems. The version that I received from my

3 learned friend, as part of today's binder was not signed by anyone from

4 the JNA or anyone representing the authorities of Ilok. The same applies

5 to another copy previously received from my learned friend. This

6 is 00381367, which is the same document, really.

7 Secondly, bearing in mind your ruling and the explanation provided

8 after that objection by my learned friend Mr. Lukic in relation to that

9 military document from Bapska, the previous report, I believe that this

10 document should not be admitted as a separate exhibit. However, if it is

11 admitted as part of the overall report of the ECMM as KII 5 [sic], which

12 is what my learned friend has referred to in this set of questions, then

13 this gives rise to another concern.

14 If we look at the heading of this agreement, this document, we

15 will notice that there is a different reference there, Ky-I-6. I can't

16 help but wonder whether this document belongs to the same set that we have

17 been referring to or whether this document is, in fact, part of a

18 different set of ECMM documents. If so, then it can't be admitted jointly

19 with the previous report, as my learned friend has just suggested.

20 I believe the witness should be in a position to clarify this for

21 us.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

23 MR. MOORE: I'm quite happy to ask the witness if he can clarify

24 this document.

25 Q. Ambassador, would you -- you've got the agreement in front of you;

Page 6529

1 is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. At tab 7?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You have got it, it was -- it's been referred to from the ECMM

6 documentation.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the date seems to be the 12th of the 10th. Now, can you tell

9 us, please, the source of this particular document that is given the title

10 of "Agreement."

11 A. As you can read in the report, which was not written by me, but I

12 believe that it was Mr. Waters, or Mr. Finakaliotis. It is definitely not

13 my handwritten. So we were -- there is paragraph 2, we were supplied by

14 both sides a copy of -- and so on. So it was given to us by both sides,

15 and it is not referring to the remark. It is not as a document with

16 signatures. It's a proposal which was given to those people. And we were

17 received it from both sides.

18 According the numbering, it was -- it was -- it is not -- I -- I

19 can't explain it why -- why it is -- the number is another, but it's a

20 part of -- I -- I see it as a part of the document, because it is the

21 document which is mentioned in the handwritten text.

22 Q. So when you referred to it, are we referring to the document, page

23 number 00381362 at paragraph 2; is that right?

24 A. 62, paragraph 2, yes, is that right.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 6530

1 MR. MOORE: I would still, therefore, make application that this

2 bundle of documents at tab 7 be made an exhibit.

3 JUDGE PARKER: The agreement is, on the evidence of the witness,

4 the document referred to in the ECMM report, which is there referred to as

5 Annex A in paragraph 2 of the report. And, as such, it will be treated on

6 the same basis as the last document that was disputed, which means that it

7 will be received as part of the report.

8 Now, that gives it no greater authenticity than as a document

9 which has been included in the report with this apparent source that is

10 mentioned in the report. It is subject to dispute as to authenticity,

11 which has been made clear by the Defence. And so it's likely to be the

12 subject of further questions or evidence in the future. And, on that

13 basis then, it will be received as part of the bundle of documents which

14 together, for our simple purposes, are tab 7.

15 THE REGISTRAR: To which we will assign exhibit number 306, Your

16 Honours.

17 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

18 Q. Now, may we please move on to tab 9? The numbers in relation to

19 this document are ERN 00381369, which is English, and the B/C/S

20 translation should be 03040394. And if that last document can be put on

21 the screens to assist the defendants.

22 Perhaps before moving on to that document, Ambassador, are you

23 able to say whether the agreement that we have just been discussing was a

24 draft agreement or whether it was an agreement that was agreed by both

25 sides, even though the document was not signed?

Page 6531

1 A. No, it was a draft agreement.

2 Q. And was it used subsequently for the Ilok situation or not?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. All right. Well, let's move on, then, to the next tab, which is

5 tab 9. It's a handwritten document. It is in English only one page. And

6 the date seems to be the 13th of the 10th --

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. -- 1991.

9 MR. MOORE: Now, has the B/C/S document been shown on the

10 defendants' screens? Could I have some indication from the Defence if that

11 is --

12 JUDGE PARKER: You will have to wait a little. There it is. But

13 it's --

14 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE PARKER: But it's in a form that's not very visible unless

16 it's enlarged.

17 MR. MOORE: May I start? The defendants are able to read the

18 document?

19 JUDGE PARKER: Not yet, if they have the same display as we have.

20 MR. MOORE: I can see that Mr. Mrksic is indicating that he cannot

21 read his document on the electronic screen. Well, it seems --

22 JUDGE PARKER: I think you can proceed now, Mr. Moore.


24 Q. Let's deal, please, with the English version, Ambassador. Where

25 has this document come from, please?

Page 6532

1 A. It's a normal report of -- of regional centre of Belgrade. It's

2 in the first line of the message. And it is addressed to Zagreb, to our

3 head of mission in Zagreb, to EC Monitoring Mission.

4 Q. And the reference is to the Ilok refugees; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You can see that?

7 A. Yes, in article 5.

8 Q. Well, let's deal with the two paragraphs, if I may. Could you be

9 kind enough, please, to read out the first paragraph?

10 A. Yeah, it's difficult to read it, because it is written by

11 Mr. Cunningham: "Held meeting with JNA liaison officer this a.m.

12 Mr. Perrin explains our concerns ..." Maybe of: "... refugees in Ilok.

13 Advised liaison officer of referendum today to determine those who wish to

14 leave Ilok."

15 Q. And is that: "Travel west"?

16 A. Yeah. "Travel west deeper into Croatia."

17 Paragraph 2: "Liaison officer advised he would contact his higher

18 authority to arrange safe passage west through JNA lines. He stated that

19 not all parts -- not all persons may be allowed to depart. Those

20 suspected of crimes would not be able to. It will be" -- no. "He will

21 try to advise us today and this proposed ROE Cunningham. Note, intend to

22 send team to Ilok today to examine situation and look all villages of

23 extreme interest to JNA."

24 Q. Are you able to help us with regard to paragraph 1, where there's

25 reference to your concerns about the refugees in Ilok? What were the

Page 6533

1 concerns of the ECMM at that time?

2 A. You already presented the letter we got to mission that people are

3 afraiding [sic] of an attack of JNA, and we are told the same when we were

4 speaking with local inhabitants.

5 Q. Can we deal with the second paragraph, please?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Because we have, in the second line: "He stated that not all

8 persons may be allowed to depart. Those suspected of crimes would not be

9 able to."

10 Can you tell us firstly: Was there a position or a stance with

11 regard to the ECMM in respect of people, what I will call refugees,

12 suspected of crimes? Were they in a different category or a similar

13 category, from the ECMM perspective?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. Can we deal, then, please, with -- we can see clearly

16 that -- "going to send today to Ilok" or "intend to send to Ilok the

17 following day to examine the situation."

18 MR. MOORE: Well, Your Honour, may I please make application for

19 tab 9 to be made an exhibit, both in English and the translation.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 307.


23 Q. And then move on to tab 10, because it is the following day. Have

24 you got that, Ambassador?

25 A. Yeah.

Page 6534

1 Q. The ERN numbers, to assist the registry, are 00381370 and 71, for

2 the English version. And then 72, 73 and 74 are the ones that I've got

3 for the -- well, to assist again the registry, it seems because of the

4 translation difficulties, the numbers -- it's a combination of both

5 English and B/C/S, and it is on the actual index that we have given.

6 It's 00381370, 0038 through to 1374. And then it would appear again there

7 are difficulties with regard to translation ERN numbers, but again on the

8 index that we have given to the registry it should read 03014242,

9 03014242, and then L004/3502 to L004/3502. But I would like to deal, if I

10 may, please, with the English version.

11 Now, have the -- have the defendants got the B/C/S version in

12 front of them, please? On their screen.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the defendants have the

14 English.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE PARKER: It's just been clarified that the witness and the

17 accused have the same screens. So that we will have to move to B/C/S on

18 the witness's screen, but as he has the paper document, that is not, I

19 think, a problem.

20 THE WITNESS: I do have both documents.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. If you can please work on paper, we can

22 then keep the B/C/S version for the accused.


24 Q. I'm going to start with the English version, the defendants have

25 now, I hope, got the B/C/S version.

Page 6535

1 Very well. Let's deal with the English version then, please. The

2 document, it's dated the 14th of October. It's a handwritten document.

3 Tab 10, Ambassador?

4 A. Yes, I have it.

5 Q. Tab 10. 14th of October, 1991. It seems to be that it's coming

6 from Belgrade. And it's going to where, please?

7 A. Zagreb.

8 Q. And the handwriting, if we look just look over the page at 1371, I

9 think it's right to say it's signed by Colonel Cunningham; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, it's correct.

12 Q. Let's deal with, then, please, the first paragraph; there are four

13 in total. Do you know who was actual on this mission or not? You clearly

14 have got Cunningham?

15 A. It was Cunningham and me, as I do remember.

16 Q. Thank you. Would you be kind enough, then, please, to read out

17 paragraph 1?

18 A. Yes. "Team spent day in Ilok. After talking to JNA and civic

19 authorities, team attended a meeting chaired by General Arandjelovic,

20 commander of local area. The meeting was conducted in a friendly

21 atmosphere and in good faith. The results are contained in the attached

22 agreement."

23 Point two: "Tomorrow, a team comprised of Mr. Kypr and Cunningham

24 will meet to Ilok to facilitate the evacuation of the Ilok persons who

25 wish to leave - approximately 8.000 at present. The JNA team, Belgrade,

Page 6536

1 will" --

2 Q. "Provide"?

3 A. "... will provide" - I'm not sure about the

4 abbreviation - "... between JNA and Belgrade. Will provide Colonel

5 Memisevic as a liaison officer and Colonel Grahovac, local commander, will

6 be involved in all negotiations/staff planning. In addition, a second

7 team of Waters and Finakaliotis will accompany the original team."

8 Q. And I think paragraph 3 deals with the concern. Can we deal with

9 that, please?

10 A. Yes. "The main concern at present is that -- is the agreed

11 departure time/date of 17th of ..." -- I can't read it. "However,

12 this" -- I don't know what does it mean. "Accurate staff planning and

13 personal contacts on the side of all" --

14 Q. Is it "on the ground"?

15 A. "On the ground," maybe. "All" --

16 Q. "Arrangements"?

17 A. "Arrangements should be completed on time." I'm not sure.

18 Q. Let me see if I can assist. "Will attempt to provide all details

19 by 1500 hours tomorrow. And to this end the JNA have indicated that some

20 trucks (possibly 50) could be made available - should know tomorrow."

21 And then 4, what does that say, please?

22 A. 4: "Both teams plan to spread -- to spend three to four days in

23 Ilok area."

24 Q. And there is telephone numbers then given?

25 A. Yeah.

Page 6537

1 Q. Now, can we then deal with the reference to the agreement, "see

2 attached agreement," which is referred to in paragraph 1. If we then turn

3 over -- I will give the references. The English reference I think I have

4 already given, but I will give again is L004/3500 through to 02. And the

5 B/C/S version would appear to be, as I say, 00381372 to 74.

6 Can you assist us? There is one other document which is in B/C/S.

7 I don't know if you've got it in between those two. It is a single

8 document with the number 4242 on it. Do you see that document, top

9 right-hand corner?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know exactly to what that document refers?

12 A. 4242, it's in Serbian. It's the translation of the -- of that

13 Cunningham report.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 MR. MOORE: Let's then deal with the agreement. We'll ask for

16 the -- I'll refer to the English, and the B/C/S to be put on the

17 electronic screen.

18 Could I be told, please, when the B/C/S document is on the screen?

19 I seem to think that it's now there.

20 I will abbreviate the first main paragraph, if I may, where it --

21 if the Court wishes me to read it, I'm quite happy to do so. Your

22 Honour's mic was on and I couldn't help but hear that there was a

23 reference about reading it? I didn't know Your Honour --

24 JUDGE PARKER: How anybody can read the B/C/S that was on my

25 screen, I didn't know, but it has now been improved. I was thinking of

Page 6538

1 the three poor accused at that moment.

2 MR. MOORE: I see. Well, can I deal, then, with the English

3 version.

4 Q. The preamble relates to the military command of the JNA, the

5 representation and the authorised representative of the towns of Ilok,

6 Sarengrad and Bapska. Various other individuals. And people who were

7 chairman of the negotiation committee and others concluded the following

8 agreement in Sid on the 14th of October, 1991, in the presence of the

9 European Community mission representatives, Hugh Cunningham, and yourself,

10 Mr. Kypr.

11 Now, can we just confirm, with regard to this document, is it a

12 draft document or was it actually agreed as a guide?

13 A. It was agreed as those two parts. I have to stress that we have

14 no -- we haven't been there, we, as EC monitoring team. We have not been

15 there in the room where the negotiation -- negotiatings [sic] were going

16 on. So we were only told that this is the agreement they -- they agreed

17 upon and that it was signed by those two sides.

18 Q. Well, can I see if I can just clarify this? You are in a

19 building, the ECMM monitors, yourself and Cunningham are in one room; and

20 the other parties are in another room. Is that correct?

21 A. No, it is not correct.

22 Q. Well, can you tell us then, please.

23 A. There were -- there were two teams from each side, or two groups

24 from each side, means Ilok's authorities and JNA authorities. They went

25 to another room, and the rest of people who were there from the convoy,

Page 6539

1 because we were -- we were providing the security through the way, so we

2 were in the convoy, so we were standing in another room and waiting until

3 they are finished.

4 Q. So when did you first see this document, then, please? In what

5 circumstances?

6 A. When -- when they came out from -- from the other room.

7 Q. Well, let's deal with it then, please. Agreement, article 1.

8 I'll read in English. "Based on the request of the citizens of Ilok,

9 Bapska and Sarengrad, and following a referendum," which we have heard

10 about in earlier documents. "All citizens of these towns as well as the

11 refugees currently staying in these towns may depart with their families

12 if they wish."

13 Article 2, and I will abbreviate, if I may, relates to the

14 handover of weapons and explosives, the location being the bridge, and it

15 would be done in the presence of the MUP and the organs from Ilok and

16 the ECMM; is that right?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. Article 3 relates to the timing, shouldn't be any later than 7.00

19 in the morning on the 17th of October.

20 Article 4 is a requirement for any operations, or total peace is

21 the phrase used, forbidding any operations and shooting.

22 Article 5. Can we deal with article 5, please? Would you be kind

23 enough to read what that relates to?

24 A. If I can read it from the draft translation. "Upon the departure

25 of citizens from the said towns and before the convoys are formed, JNA

Page 6540

1 members will inspect, search any facilities whose inspection search is

2 deemed necessary in the presence of MUP organs and European Community

3 mission members."

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry, Mr. Vasic.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I hope that this is a good

7 time now that the witness has finished this article. I believe that what

8 my learned friend read out on page 58, line 11 as being article 3 of this

9 agreement, or what he paraphrased as being article 3, is not in reference

10 to any weapons or explosives surrendered. Rather, article 3 says that the

11 Croatian MUP and TO units undertake that they shall immediately remove all

12 the mines and explosives that were laid in the settled areas, and that

13 this should be done by the 17th of October.

14 I think that changes the meaning of the entire paragraph.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.


17 Q. Can we deal, please, with the article 5, there is reference to the

18 European Community mission members. Were you present when this article

19 was adhered to?

20 A. No. We were not.

21 Q. Why was that?

22 A. We were not a part of this negotiations. It was not our mandate.

23 Q. So when parties came out from the negotiations and you saw that

24 there were various articles referring to the ECMM mission's

25 participation, did you indicate to them whether you agreed or didn't agree

Page 6541

1 to their proposal?

2 A. We were asked to sign this agreement and we rejected it. So you

3 can't see our signatures there on the paper.

4 Q. But the question I'm asking is: Why did you reject it?

5 A. Because we were not a part of that, and we -- we -- our mandate

6 was not to discuss those things. We were there as monitors, as observers.

7 Q. So when we talk about the ECMM mandate, and here we're dealing

8 with Ilok and we will deal with the same mandate when it comes to Vukovar,

9 what was your perceived mandate when you were dealing with such places as

10 Ilok and Vukovar?

11 A. Yeah, as you can see from the name of the mission, it's to

12 monitor, to observe cease-fire, the other mandate was to prevent

13 blood-shed if we can help, let's say in communication to hand over

14 messages from one side to another side, if there is no other possibility

15 for contacts of those two sides. But it was more passive than -- than

16 active behaviour.

17 Q. Thank you. I'm going to move on, if I may, to article 10 of this

18 document, which is at page 3502. So it's the very final article. Have

19 you got article 10 there --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- Ambassador?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Reading: "Citizens under reasonable suspicion."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you be kind enough to read out that particular article, and

Page 6542

1 then I wish to ask you some questions about it.

2 A. "Citizens under reasonable suspicion of having committed a

3 criminal offence may not leave the towns or join the convoy. All

4 representatives, that is, members of the National Guards Corps, must leave

5 the above-mentioned towns and join the convoy, unless they have committed

6 a criminal offence. They will be given the same guarantee of their

7 security as the other citizens."

8 Q. Now can I just deal, please, with this reference, because this is

9 not the first time that it has been referred to in your documentation.

10 Here are citizens, the suggestion being that they have committed a

11 criminal offence and they were not to leave the town or to join the

12 convoy. Do you know what actually happened to -- firstly, did you know if

13 any people were not allowed to join the convoy?

14 A. I can't remember.

15 Q. With regard to this article, article 10, I presume you -- you read

16 it at the time; that is correct or not?

17 A. Not.

18 Q. Then --

19 A. We rejected the -- to sign the -- this agreement because we were

20 not a part of that. So -- so we were not even -- we haven't read that in

21 details. I saw, okay, there is "sporazum," it means agreement, and there

22 are signatures, but nothing more. We got a copy.

23 Q. So what did you actually do then in Ilok after this?

24 A. In Ilok we helped to -- to prevent blood-shed, so it means to be

25 there on the spot. There were teams sleeping in Ilok. Cunningham was

Page 6543

1 sleeping there to -- to make the village or the city more safe. And I was

2 in the very neighbourhood, and there were other teams. And we asked for

3 support or for help in Zagreb ICRC, because they are the right body to

4 provide such an evacuation.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I'm going to ask that that particular

7 document or series of documents in tab 10 be made an exhibit.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 308.


11 Q. Now, that was the 14th of October. If we move then to tab 11, we

12 have got various documents with the following number, 00381376; 77 for

13 English; 78, it would be in French. And then translations in the

14 following number: 03040696, 97, 98, and 88 is the -- 788 is the

15 translation of the earlier document.

16 So could I deal, please, with the document dated the 25th of

17 October? The subject is "Evacuation of Ilok."

18 Have you got that, Ambassador?

19 A. You mean sent by Mr. Perrin?

20 Q. Well, that's exactly -- I was going to say firstly, can you see

21 the document, and you can see who signed it.

22 Can we deal, then, please, with the English version, but can we

23 just check the B/C/S version is on the screen? I'm told it is.

24 Let us then deal with paragraph 1, please, which was the document

25 created by Mr. Perrin.

Page 6544

1 Would you be kind enough to read it, please?

2 A. Yeah, on the display there is the first page, so we need the

3 second -- yeah. It's there.

4 Okay. From RC Belgrade, Perrin to head of mission Zagreb.

5 "Subject: Evacuation of Ilok." First: "I object most strenuously to

6 the attached article and the insinuations contained therein against two

7 members of my senior staff. For your information, Kypr and Cunningham

8 were on an authorised operation to monitor the cease-fire in Ilok. As is

9 standard practice, and in order to determine the situation, they visited

10 the JNA authorities and then the village senior personnel in Ilok. During

11 the course of the meeting with the senior villagers, the villagers passed

12 on the results of a referendum held the day before. The referendum asked

13 two questions: a - do you wish to lay down your arms; and b - do you wish

14 to leave Ilok? The results were that 940 (it means 26 per cent) wished to

15 give weapons away and 5.347 wished to leave with their children, plus

16 1.000 from Bapska and a further 1.000 from other local villages.

17 "At the end of the meeting, the village senior personnel asked if

18 Kypr and Cunningham would attend a meeting they had already arranged with

19 General Arandjelovic in the town of Sid at 1200 hours. Kypr and

20 Cunningham explained that they had no knowledge of the meeting and could

21 not attend without agreement of both sides. With the concurrence of both

22 sides, Kypr and Cunningham attended the meeting to observe only.

23 "Contrary to the statement in the attached article, neither Kypr

24 nor Cunningham signed the document. In addition, they did not participate

25 in the preparation of the document which was done behind closed doors,

Page 6545

1 with only the JNA and the village senior personnel present.

2 "In order to preserve and enforce monitor impartiality, on more

3 than one occasion and normally several times a day, the village senior

4 staff was advised in the strongest of terms that Kypr and Cunningham would

5 do whatever the village senior personnel asked them to do in order to

6 continue the cease-fire, prevent blood-shed, and ensure the security of

7 the villagers. The prime and only activity of Kypr and Cunningham was

8 restricted to carrying messages and requests from one side to the other

9 side and back. Also, I must point out that the village had the tacit

10 agreement of Mr. Ivan Juros (head of Ilok in the Senate) who personally

11 told Mr. Petar Cobankovic (village representative who visited Zagreb

12 immediately prior to the evacuation), quote, 'you are there, you know, you

13 do what is best' unquote. Finally, when Mr. Cunningham relayed Zagreb's

14 direct order to the village senior personnel to cease and desist in any

15 activities that could be construed as aiding the evacuation, the presence

16 of the mission is our only guarantee" -- sorry. "The spokesman for the

17 villagers stated quote 'We are totally neutral the presence of the mission

18 is our only guarantee not to be killed -- I don't see an exit for us. We

19 are victims, we can't have control, army can do own work and Ilok may not

20 exist, and Ilok it will be the same as Sarengrad and Bapska.' Unquote.

21 (The statements are somewhat disjointed, as the translator broke down in

22 tears several times, as did several others)."

23 Q. Can I just stop you there? Clearly, then, paragraph 2 relates to

24 Mr. Cunningham taking notes - we'll see that in a moment - and also that

25 there had been complaints by the government of Croatia about your

Page 6546

1 participation in Ilok; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I know it's slightly out of sequence, but I will deal with that,

4 if I may, at this time. But this clearly was a document sent by the ECMM

5 head of mission about the allegations against you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that right? And what were the consequences to you of those

8 allegations?

9 A. According EC Monitoring Mission, none.

10 Q. And at the end of your ECMM monitoring mission, did you receive

11 any recognition for your part in this procedure?

12 A. Maybe after two years I got a silver medal of the ECMM mission.

13 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I was not intending to adduce that as

14 evidence, but clearly it was something that had to be dealt with in

15 relation to Ilok.

16 I would like to move on, if I may, please, I will bypass tab 12,

17 which refers to the details of the referendum, but I will move on to

18 tab 13. It precedes the complaint but is referred to in the complaint.

19 It is the number -- my number is 00381394, 95, 96 are the English version.

20 And then for the B/C/S, it relates to 03040398 and 03041190 is the B/C/S

21 version.

22 Q. Now, have you got the handwritten document? It's dated the 18th?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. We have heard already the -- I think, the 11th, 13th, the 14th.

25 This is now the 18th. Can we just look at the following page. I think

Page 6547

1 it's signed by Cunningham; is that right?

2 A. Yes, it's right.

3 Q. And I'll deal with the list in due course.

4 Now, with regard to this mission, this again refers to yourself

5 and Colonel Cunningham, visiting various towns?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us, please, reading from paragraph 1, the towns that

8 you visited?

9 A. It was the 16th of October.

10 Q. Sorry. Yes. The report is the 18th, but the visit was the 16th.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So what towns did you visit, please?

13 A. We went to Sarengrad, Bapska, Mohovo, Lovas and Opatovac.

14 Q. And can you tell us, please, what you found?

15 A. The villages at the end, it means, Lovas and Opatovac were

16 undamaged and appeared normal as stated in this report. All other

17 villages were partly destroyed.

18 Q. And can you please use the report and read from the report in

19 relation to the towns that you referred to?

20 A. Yeah. "Various homes of the other -- these towns."

21 Q. "Three towns"?

22 A. "Three towns, especially Lovas, with" --

23 Q. Is that 26?

24 A. "... 26 destroyed homes, were damaged, some very severely. The

25 team stopped in Lovas and meet with several local authorities. Of special

Page 6548

1 note concern, the 'chiefs,' chief of the local defence forces - a

2 civilian - spoke to us at great length about the situation in Lovas. His

3 talk could be best described as a rambling" --

4 Q. "Diatribe"?

5 A. "... diatribe covering World War I, World War II, to rambling" --

6 sorry, "to the present. During his talk, he mentioned plans for the

7 future that involved forced relocation of some 300 to 500 personnel of

8 Croatian extraction ..." I can't read. "Total population of 1.800 of

9 which 136 are Serbs. He also stated that he and other Serbs, volunteers

10 had attacked specific homes in Lovas, the 10th of October, 1991, to

11 prevent Serbs from being slaughtering."

12 Q. From being slaughtered, I think.

13 A. Slaughtered, sorry.

14 Q. That's okay.

15 A. "During the" --

16 Q. Is that "attack"?

17 A. "This attack, 22 Croats and one Serb were killed. The Croats were

18 normal citizens and not Croatian National Guard. The town is consequently

19 being ruin -- run by a council of five of which the chief and the deputy

20 are both Serbs. For your info, Cunningham."

21 Q. Thank you. And then if we turn over, I think it's right to say,

22 at page 1396, we have got a list of individuals, and at page 03041190, the

23 English version, we have got -- it says: "A list of buried civilians

24 killed in the battle to liberate Lovas on the 10th of October."

25 A. Yes.

Page 6549

1 Q. Now, there are 22, as you have described, Croats and one Serb.

2 Did you meet this individual, the chief of the local defence forces;

3 namely, the Serb defence force? Did you actually meet him yourself?

4 A. Yes, we have met him, both Cunningham and me.

5 Q. And what was your overall impression of this man? In very short

6 form.

7 A. I am not psychologist, but he was -- he looks like he is not very

8 normal person.

9 Q. And there is reference to the plans for forced relocation of some

10 three to 500 personnel of Croatian extraction, or actually of the 1800,

11 136 were Serbs. What was done in relation to that? Do you know if Croats

12 were relocated?

13 A. No, I don't know, because afterwards I was not in a contact with

14 those villages.

15 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, could I please make the documents that

16 are in binder 13, or tab 13 exhibits in relation to this case.

17 JUDGE PARKER: These will be received.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 309.


20 Q. Now, I would just like to deal with two photographs. They are at

21 tab 15 and tab 16. And I'll deal with them, if I may. The reference for

22 the photograph at tab 15 seems to be 00381525, 00381526. And with regard

23 to six, and then with regard to the other photograph, it's 1526A.

24 So I would just like to deal with those photographs, if we may.

25 So one is, I will start again, 00381523, 00381524, and then the other one

Page 6550

1 is 00381525, 00381526.

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. Let's deal with those photographs, if we may. The first

4 photograph should show a tank with two goats in front of it, and an ECMM

5 vehicle. Where was that photograph taken, please?

6 A. I believe that it is Sarengrad. It is written on the -- on the

7 other page of the picture. But it was -- it was written by me afterwards

8 when the pictures were -- were done, so it's maybe 14 days after, and I

9 really can't tell precisely if it is Sarengrad or which, but I -- I

10 presume that it is Sarengrad.

11 Q. Well, in actual fact, I was trying to shorten it, if I could. But

12 if we just turn back a page, you will see the back of the photograph, and

13 we can see that it's Sarengrad, 1524A. Do you see that?

14 A. Yeah, but -- sorry, sir, but there is a time between when

15 photographs were developed, so maybe my memory in that time was not --

16 Q. Thank you very much. And then can we move on to -- and I will

17 seek to make that an exhibit.

18 If we move to the 1526, we've got a photograph which seems to be

19 a -- an exhumation. Now can you tell us, please, where this is?

20 A. Yes, it was an exhumation. We were asked by local citizens from

21 Ilok that -- that there are some bodies buried only for temporary

22 circumstances, and that they wished to have them in the cemetery of Ilok

23 city. So we offered them our service to go to cover the convoy which

24 can -- which can bring those bodies to -- to the City of Ilok.

25 Q. And were you told how these -- how these people were killed or who

Page 6551

1 killed them?

2 A. We were not -- yes, they were killed, but we were not told by

3 whom, or I don't remember.

4 Q. But were you told whether they were Croat or Serb?

5 A. Yes, they were Croats.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I would seek to make both these

8 photographs exhibits. So in relation to divider, or number 14, tab 14 --

9 JUDGE PARKER: 00381524 will be received.

10 MR. MOORE: Thank you.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 310.

12 MR. MOORE: And 00381526.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 311, Your Honours.


16 Q. I want to deal on -- move on, please, to tab 17. Tab 16 deals

17 with the evacuation itself and perhaps you will be cross-examined on it.

18 Tab 17, which is 00381381, 1382, and then for the B/C/S

19 translation, 03040789 and 90.

20 MR. MOORE: And Your Honour, I very much -- I don't know exactly

21 the time, but I would very much like to conclude this document in its

22 entirety, if Your Honour was thinking of a break now.

23 JUDGE PARKER: No, we can stretch on with the tape until --

24 MR. MOORE: Thank you.

25 JUDGE PARKER: -- 25 to at least.

Page 6552

1 MR. MOORE: Good. Thank you very much.

2 Q. Can I deal, then, with this document itself? You've seen it

3 before. In general terms, just looking at it, what exactly is it?

4 A. It is analysis maybe made by the headquarters of ECMM in Zagreb,

5 which established a special team of -- a special humanitarian team which

6 should take care about the developing situation which was getting worse

7 and worse, and there was a lot of those humanitarian problems. And we

8 have to analyse what will be the next future of the mission and what

9 our -- what is happening on the front line on the spot, we are sending

10 there.

11 Q. Let's deal, then, with the very first line. It seems to be in

12 Dutch, the top line. It seems to refer to information. And then it

13 mentions various countries. So what was its distribution, please? To

14 whom did this go?

15 A. This distribution means Coreu. Its distribution within all EU in

16 that time, European community countries.

17 Q. And what about these other countries that are mentioned which are

18 clearly not in the EU at the time? Top line, please.

19 A. I -- I don't know.

20 Q. Well, can we just look at it, please.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. We have got -- to me it seems to be Yugoslavian distribution.

23 We've got Stockholm, Ottawa, Prague, Sophia, Budapest.

24 A. I cannot comment.

25 Q. Very well. Let us then drop a line, then, please. What exactly

Page 6553

1 does that refer to?

2 A. It's --

3 Q. Pres/Hag Coreu?

4 A. In that time it was probably -- I guess "Hag" means Hague, because

5 in that time, as I do remember, the Netherlands was the presidency, the

6 president country of EU.

7 Q. About what level of priority did it have?

8 A. It -- it has a priority.

9 Q. And the date seems to be the 8th of November, 1991, the time being

10 2205 hours; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That's the local time. And what was its circulation? Is there

13 any control of the circulation there, please?

14 A. Yes, it is the lowest control of circulation.

15 Q. And it's copies to EC embassies. Now where were these EC

16 embassies?

17 A. I don't know what does it mean, because in that time we were not a

18 member of European Union, so I am not aware of this. Where it have been

19 sent.

20 Q. Now, can we deal, then, please, with the subject matter, and would

21 you be kind enough to read out, I'll stop you when we need explanation.

22 A. "Subject: 138th report of Monitoring Mission. The following

23 report of violations of the second protocol to the Geneva Conventions was

24 received from HOM on the 7th November, 1991. The monitor mission was

25 investigated complaints of several authorities concerning possible

Page 6554

1 violations of the second protocol to the Geneva Conventions before and

2 during the events of Ilok and the surrounding villages of Bapska, Lovas

3 and Sarengrad. To achieve a balanced investigation, a monitor team was

4 held" --

5 Q. "Has held"?

6 A. "... has held: A, interviews with ECMM members of regional

7 centre, Belgrade: B, interviews with CO headquarters JNA in Ilok: C,

8 interviews with the local friar, Marco Malovic, of the Franciscan

9 monastery of Sveti Ivan Kapistran in Ilok: D, a local reconnaissance of

10 the situation in the villages mentioned before: E, interviews in Rijeka

11 and the surrounding area with the evacuation -- evacuated people."

12 Q. Yes, now could you just read a little more slowly because there is

13 a difficulty with translation.

14 A. I will try.

15 Q. Thank you very much. That's kind of you.

16 A. "The search for the truth took four days, 17 hours of hearings and

17 four days of travelling. Two requests to visit Sarengrad or another

18 village were denied. The nearby villages could not be visited for reasons

19 of insecurity and military area of responsibility.

20 "The investigation had of course several limitations: The short

21 time-span available, the limited number of people heard, and the fact that

22 the villages near Ilok could not be visited.

23 "The monitor three -- monitor team, however, has been convinced,

24 after following the above-mentioned approach and cross-checking the

25 received testimonies and the made statements that conclusions can be

Page 6555

1 drawn: In a number of instances there have been violations of the second

2 protocol.

3 "The monitor mission is of the opinion that the JNA frequently,

4 in close cooperation with Chetniks, (called reservists or territorial

5 troops by the JNA) tried to displace as many Croats as possible by

6 creating distraction and/or panic. This view was also supported by a

7 written report from another area.

8 "The JNA scenario have, save the one for Ilok, often involved

9 along the following lines: Tension, confusion and fear is built up by

10 military presence in the vicinity of the villages and by provocative

11 behaviour: Controls, shootings: 2, next there is artillery or mortar

12 shelling for several days. This shelling is mostly aimed at the Croatian

13 part of the village. In this stage, the churches are often hit and

14 destroyed. 3, in nearly all of the cases JNA ultimata are issued

15 demanding the collections and the delivery of all weapons. Village

16 delegations" -- now I am not --

17 Q. In actual fact, if you turn over the page, because of the way that

18 the telex was sent, it will only take so many -- so much in. If you look

19 at the next page there is a duplication, and you can see that you were

20 reading paragraph 3, and you can find paragraph 3 repeated.

21 A. "In nearly all of the cases" -- thank you, sir.

22 Q. That's all right.

23 A. "JNA ultimata is issued demanding the collection and delivery of

24 all weapons. Village delegations are formed but their consultations with

25 the military authorities do not lead, with the exception of Ilok, to

Page 6556

1 peaceful arrangement. The practice is strongly discouraging --

2 discouraged by the Croatian authorities.

3 "With or without waiting for the result -- for the results of the

4 ultimata a military attack is carried out with tanks and/or infantry. 5,

5 at the same time or shortly after the attack Chetniks entered the village

6 to finish the job. Accounts vary then from murder, killing, burning,

7 looting and discrimination. Most of all elderly people who were not able

8 to flee are involved."

9 Q. Can you just do it slowly, please? Thank you. Yes?

10 A. "Ilok was not destroyed: As such, it represents an asset with a

11 functional value and serve a showcase to the monitor team.

12 "The systematically denied any guilt referring to the armament of

13 the population and the provocative behaviour from their side. The

14 assumption that the population was armed is mostly true. It appears

15 however that compliance with the ultimatum never changed the further

16 course of events. Attacks with tanks, artillery and armoured infantry

17 against the unarmed or slightly armed villagers. This in itself should be

18 considered a violation of the generally accepted humanitarian principles

19 of proportionality and subsidiarity.

20 "Another defence of the JNA was that they could not be held

21 responsible for the behaviour of the Chetniks. The monitor team is,

22 however, convinced that the JNA very closely cooperated with those

23 reservists and is of the opinion that the leadership of JNA should

24 directly or indirectly be held responsible for their acts. End of text,

25 Hag Coreu."

Page 6557

1 Q. And that document was compiled on the 8th of November, 10 days

2 before the surrender of Vukovar; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I would seek to make the documents in

5 tab 17 exhibits in this case.

6 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 312.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore. That's probably a convenient

9 time then for the break, is it?

10 MR. MOORE: It is. Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at five minutes to 1.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

15 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, yes. We will be moving on now to the

16 matters around Vukovar. And can I just indicate that the Court, I'm sure,

17 will be equally thrilled to hear that I have additional documents to give

18 you. I am sure you will enjoy enormously.

19 May I just pass these pass these forward? My learned friends have

20 got copies of them. They are Ambassador Kypr's notebook, which I will

21 make application for him to refer to it. That is a handwritten document

22 which I think he has in his handbag. And these are the English and B/C/S

23 translations. So I will endeavour to try and move from the notebook to

24 the witness statement to the file.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Is it the case that the interpreters have had the

Page 6558

1 benefit of those documents?

2 MR. MOORE: They have not had the benefit of those documents, as

3 far as I'm aware.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Can that be arranged?

5 MR. MOORE: I have actually asked for some to be printed. I will

6 just see if there are spare ones.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 MR. MOORE: Perhaps if I just deal with the preliminary points,

10 and additional copies, I hope, can be -- can be printed.

11 Q. Ambassador, I think it's right to say that you have a notebook,

12 it's the yellow one with the large red patch on the top with the name of

13 "Kypr" on it. Now, that particular document or book, when did you

14 compile the notes within that?

15 A. It was used during my mission in -- in those areas in 1991.

16 Q. And when you say "those areas," I think it's right to say that

17 we're dealing with Vukovar; is that right?

18 A. The notebook covers -- the first remark is the 18th of November.

19 Q. Yes. And I think it's right to say that you would wish to refer

20 to that notebook to assist your memory; is that right?

21 A. Yes. If it is possible, I would be very --

22 Q. I'll seek the Court's leave in relation to that.

23 JUDGE PARKER: That will be appropriate, Mr. Moore.

24 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

25 Q. Now, to help, I hope, we have prepared an English translation,

Page 6559

1 because the notes within your book which you brought to the ICTY on

2 Monday, they're in B/C/S, Czech and English; is that right?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. And the -- the notes themselves that we now have typed up were

5 compiled as -- with you sitting down with a language assistant and

6 deciphering what you were saying?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you have had an opportunity of looking at the typed copy to

9 try and assess its accuracy?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that equally correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would you -- perhaps the best way of dealing with it is this way:

14 If we work from the typed copy, I will use with the English, the B/C/S

15 copy can be put on the screen, and you can open your original notebook and

16 just clarify whether it is right or not. Is that possible for you to do?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Well, may I then just, before we do that,

19 deal with, very quickly, tab 19. Tab 19, I only wish to refer to a short

20 part of this particular document. The English version, which is

21 handwritten, refers to number 00381385, 1386, and the B/C/S version is

22 03040395, 96 and 97. But I would like to, if I may, please, deal with

23 really the first page, the English page number 1386.

24 A. 1386.

25 Q. It's at tab 19, Ambassador.

Page 6560

1 A. Excuse me. Okay.

2 Q. And that should be a handwritten document. It states 0 -- if you

3 look at the top left-hand corner of that page, it should start 0815,

4 departure Belgrade; do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Excellent. Now, have -- have the defendants got a copy on -- in

7 B/C/S of this document on their screen? I anticipate it will be the

8 number 03040396. I see nods. Good.

9 This again deals with Ilok, and there is only one matter I wish to

10 deal with. It's conversation with a priest. It is the second underlined

11 heading.

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. "The priest informed about the following." Have you got that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you very much. "The priest informed about the following:

16 He expected about 800 of the refugees to return within the next week. The

17 JNA had mobilised three bus loads of young men from Ilok."

18 And this is the part: "Of the former 4.000 Catholics in Ilok,

19 only 700 were left."

20 And then: "The JNA is correct about the information on the number

21 of the population."

22 Now, do I read that correctly?

23 A. Yes, I do hope.

24 Q. The rest of the document merely deals with - when I say "merely,"

25 I don't mean that offensively - church artifacts?

Page 6561

1 A. Yeah.

2 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I would wish to only put document

3 number 00381386 in English and its equivalent translation, which is

4 03040396. I wish to make that an exhibit, just that part of that page.

5 And that would be the document on tab 19.

6 JUDGE PARKER: The translation is not only the document ending 96,

7 but also --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I mentioned my concern that the translation may be

10 two pages rather than one.

11 MR. MOORE: It is two pages, but the part that I wish to refer

12 to --

13 JUDGE PARKER: We're having the lot or nothing, Mr. Moore. In

14 fairness.

15 MR. MOORE: So it's 0396 and 0397. My apologies. Thank you very

16 much.


18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this will be exhibit number 313.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


21 Q. Now, Ambassador, would you be kind enough, please, to turn to what

22 I will call the Kypr notes.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Because we now move on to the 18th of

25 November. Don't put that file away, because we will be returning to it in

Page 6562

1 due course.

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Now, with regard to these notes, to assist

4 my learned friends' numbering and the Court, this notebook, the

5 handwritten version on ERN is 04687759, 04687792, and the typed version

6 has the same number as indeed the English and the B/C/S. So I wish to

7 refer to the typed version, if I may. My learned friends have got hard

8 copies of it. And now the Court have got the electronic number.

9 JUDGE PARKER: And the electronic display will be in B/C/S --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. MOORE: Yes, the B/C/S, I hope, will be displayed for the

12 defendants. Could they just let us know when it's arrived?

13 JUDGE PARKER: It's there now.

14 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

15 Q. I think it's right to say that your first notes relate to a

16 briefing on the 18th of November; is that right?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. And when you compiled these notes what was the purpose of so

19 doing?

20 A. Being a monitor almost each monitor was doing his own notes during

21 our service there, so as have been mentioned in the case of Colonel

22 Cunningham, as well as I was making my remarks to use it afterwards when

23 we were writing reports. Or to use quotations when we were negotiating or

24 referring to this and that point afterwards.

25 So it was -- it was very practical. But the problem is that I was

Page 6563

1 not reading sometimes all sentences. There are abbreviations in English,

2 in Serbian. Sometimes it is -- it was written in English, even though the

3 speaker is Serb, because there was translation. Usually our liaison

4 officers were translating that. So if it seems that the sentence is

5 important for me and I have listened that in Serb, then I wrote it down

6 when -- when he was translating. So it was sometimes -- sometimes it was

7 English, sometimes it was Serb version.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Now, who did you have a briefing with,

9 please, on the 18th?

10 A. Yeah. It was General Maksimovic at the 1st Military District.

11 Q. And was that in Belgrade?

12 A. Yes, it is. I hope -- I have no evidence on that. I don't

13 remember, and there is no evidence in the notes

14 Q. Well, I'm just looking at the -- it says the General, and there

15 seems to be a date. And letters BG in the handwritten page?

16 A. Yeah, it's Belgrade. It's Belgrade, BG is Belgrade.

17 Q. Thank you very much. And what exactly were you being told by the

18 General, please?

19 A. We were told first that cease-fire was broken from Croatian side,

20 so because in Vukovar is going genocide. Then it switched to -- to

21 Serbian, the -- so I have to use the translation. "We have an information

22 that by the treatment of the mission they want to prolong resistance in

23 Vukovar."

24 Q. Just slowly, please. Yes?

25 A. "Carry out or bring what they need there. They think to assure

Page 6564

1 their stay in Vukovar or further resistance there through ECMM. We have

2 verified information that they succeeded to infiltrate in Vukovar during

3 the night in order to accomplish the objectives of attack. Last night

4 they operated in certain directions. They did not respect the truce since

5 day before yesterday at 1800 hours. Army -- so army responded in that

6 way."

7 That is in English translation it is missing the "so."

8 Q. Thank you very much. Could you wait for a minute? There may be a

9 problem.

10 MR. MOORE: Could I assist the Court in any way?

11 JUDGE PARKER: At moment we are trying to get at least the B/C/S

12 version to interpreters.

13 MR. MOORE: If it assists the Court, we are having extra copies

14 printed for the interpreters.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


17 Q. Can we deal, then, please, had you any way of verifying whether

18 that was right or not, what was being said to you? At that time.

19 A. All the time we were told, so if we are not in the spot we cannot

20 evaluate the information. We are there as a monitor. If we are -- we can

21 monitor only if we are there, and we were not there, so we were told that

22 this is the situation.

23 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, forgive me. I don't understand why the

24 interpreters have not got the same version as the defendants, which would

25 allow them to interpret. That, perhaps, is my misunderstanding, but I

Page 6565

1 thought it was if it was shown on the defendants' screen it would be shown

2 on the interpreters' screen as well.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore. That is correct. Carry on. We're

4 doing what we can to help people.

5 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

6 JUDGE PARKER: As soon as the English language arrives, it will be

7 much better.

8 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

9 Q. Can we deal, then, please, with your next entry. What does that

10 refer to, please?

11 A. There is remark: "Adasevci checking point, approximately from

12 10.15 to 12.22. We were waiting there" --

13 Q. And where is that particular location?

14 A. It's on Serb territory, but we were told by our liaison officer,

15 please, I have to check the situation, please wait. So we were waiting

16 more than one hour, then we decided to turn back to -- for Belgrade. In

17 the very moment we turned back, liaison officers came and that everything

18 is okay and that we can go further.

19 Q. Can we deal, then, please, with your next entry, which I think is

20 at 12.15. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What language is that in?

23 A. It is written in Czech.

24 Q. And I think it's right to say that it's been subsequently

25 translated into B/C/S and English. So can you deal, please, with what it

Page 6566

1 was that occurred at 12.15? Use the original if you feel you need it.

2 A. I will use the translation, because it should be the

3 same. "Conversation with Dr. Bosanac, 'it was signed at the talks that

4 ECMM" -- it is not correct, so I will follow in Czech original.

5 "It was signed on negotiation that ECMM this morning" -- no, "by

6 this morning." Sorry, it is the end of the sentence. "We visit the

7 Vukovar Hospital by noon. I'm asking you, and she repeated it three

8 times, to come as soon as possible. The situation in the hospital is

9 dramatic. Red Cross couldn't come because they are shooting from the left

10 bank."

11 "They" means JNA.

12 Q. And what is the next entry, please? Is there a timing at 12.25?

13 A. Yes. We ask for permission in Zagreb to go there to Vukovar,

14 because -- to Vukovar's hospital.

15 Q. And then I think it's right to say that you had a name or you

16 requested a name to be recorded. Is that right?

17 A. Yes, it is, because it is written by another hand. So I -- I did

18 it when somebody came during the meeting, and I didn't know who is the

19 person, so I asked somebody, our liaison officer or somebody from the

20 other side, to write down the names. So you can see it in my notes few

21 times.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honours please turn to tab 24, which is an

24 extract from the original notebook, which is 00381411. Go to just tab 24.

25 And for the B/C/S we have got 03040384.

Page 6567

1 Q. Now, can we just deal with this extract, we've got it clearly in

2 the middle, Major Veselin Sljivancanin. Now it seems to also have

3 something else written down?

4 A. Yeah, it is written by my hand, because I was told probably that

5 he is -- he comes from command of Operation Group South Negoslavci.

6 Q. And where did you get the name from?

7 A. I asked somebody on opposite side of the table, probably.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I seek to make that particular extraction

10 from the document at tab 24 an exhibit, please.

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

12 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 314.


15 Q. Now, if we can just return to the original notebook, please, if

16 you can just close the file for a moment. Thank you very much. And you

17 have the English translation with you as well?

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. You've got four documents in total. Can we just deal, then,

20 please with the entry at 12.35?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what is your entry at 12.35?

23 A. Quotation: "Several times we offered them negotiate to give a

24 chance people to leave the cellars." End of quotation. "All our offers

25 were rejected. We stopped the combat operations to make possible a visit

Page 6568

1 for humanitarian operations."

2 Q. The reference to, "We stopped the combat operations," are you able

3 to say which area of combat operations were stopped or to which it

4 referred?

5 A. I can't remember.

6 Q. All right. Let's move on, then, please to the next entry.

7 A. The next entry speaks about 1.300 civilians put out. The next

8 line is hostages, civilians, but it has no other -- other content, and

9 I -- I don't remember what -- what it has meant.

10 Q. Well, can we deal then, please, with the next entry that's

11 referred to.

12 A. Yes. "Representatives of Ustasha forces met one of our commanders

13 at bus station on southeast. It should be finished now."

14 Q. Thank you. Now, before we proceed, "met one of our commanders."

15 Did -- was the name given of the commander that was mentioned on this

16 occasion?

17 A. I am sure not, because I wrote down that one of our commanders, if

18 the name is there, or it should be written there, or there are some

19 points, because I was not able to catch the name.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, can we then deal with your next entry, please.

21 A. "Marin Vidic, Bili, called twice by phone. He asked for

22 conditions for help (in the area of city hall)."

23 Q. And I think it's right to say there was a reference then to

24 proposals; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6569

1 Q. Made by whom?

2 A. I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to guess, so -- it

3 depends on the text and ...

4 Q. Let's look at the -- what the proposals are.

5 A. "We immediately will stop all combat in Vukovar. He should ask

6 all forces of MUP," means police or Croatian police, "and National Guard

7 to come to the stadium and lay down arms. All." Yes it's visible that

8 it's Yugoslav People's Army proposal. "After that we will provide all

9 facilities for helping. We guarantee full security to all civilians

10 according."

11 Q. Yes, now I just want to deal -- we've got the typed version,

12 perhaps it doesn't come through quite as clearly. Can we just go to the

13 original handnote, please, your book?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the reference to "all," with an exclamation mark?

16 A. Yes. It is there.

17 Q. The "all," is that in a normal writing or is it in enlarged

18 writing?

19 A. It is -- the first is capital, but -- yeah. I use the -- the

20 mark, so it -- it -- it was visible that it is stressed with some -- with

21 some certain importance.

22 Q. Thank you very much. Now, let's then deal with the reference,

23 please.

24 A. There is reference, Vidic. I don't know the sense of that.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 6570

1 A. In English version I got D. Vidic, but the D before, it is

2 illegible, and it is cancelled by me, I believe.

3 Q. Well, let's read, then, please, what exactly was said.

4 A. There is, in this line, the valid for me is only Vidic, nothing

5 more.

6 Q. And the lower, please.

7 A. The lower is: "Prisoners of war from NG and MUP will be changed

8 with our prisoners of war."

9 Q. Yes. Can you carry on, please.

10 A. "Main aim and wish is: Vukovar should be free town - all people

11 and citizens could go freely and also our wishes are to save innocent

12 people."

13 Q. In the translation we have "and also their wishes." You

14 say "our." Can you just clarify that again?

15 A. It is -- it is written over the previous, and I can see that it

16 is "our wishes."

17 Q. Thank you. Yes, carry on, please.

18 A. "Killing and torturing isn't our wish. If they don't accept our

19 conditions, JNA units will be forced to liberate the rest of Vukovar."

20 Q. Did they explain -- you had had experiences in Ilok and other

21 villages. Did they explain what to liberate Vukovar meant?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Can we then carry on, please, with the next entry.

24 A. It means that there are 150 civilians and hostages in cellar.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 6571

1 A. "Six guard were killed, no civilian was hurt. Approximately

2 15-years-old girl was 15 days ago hit knee by sniper."

3 Q. And then I think it's right to say, then we look at the typed

4 copy, we've got two inverted triangles?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Which represents a drawing on your -- in your book; is that right?

7 A. Yeah. It is -- there are -- there were two pockets of the -- of

8 the last defence. The left triangle was on the left side, we were told

9 that there are 200 armed people more than 400 civilians in atom shelter,

10 Olajnica, plus hospital. Then we are told that there are in the right

11 triangle, which was around the water-tower, that there are mercenaries,

12 60 armed people, and unknown number of civilians.

13 Q. And then I think there was a reference, is there not, to JNA?

14 A. I can't explain why is there JNA, and we were told that there are

15 1.300 civilians, a part of them is in Velepromet waiting to go back to the

16 other parts of town.

17 Q. Yes, and the briefing continued, please.

18 A. "20 days before some leaders or chiefs went to hospital and they

19 left maybe towards Vinkovci."

20 Q. And then turning the page in your original document.

21 A. "We stopped all actions now."

22 Q. Now, can we just deal your next entry, because that was one

23 location. I think that the next entry appears to be timed at 1445; is

24 that right?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 6572

1 Q. On the 18th?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that is at Velepromet?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And why did you go to Velepromet?

6 A. Because in Velepromet it was the place where people, refugees,

7 were gathering.

8 Q. Can I just ask you, please, to look at your original note?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The previous page. Now, you have your diagram?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you have the two inverted triangles?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You have got triangle one, where you have told us on the left-hand

15 side?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Triangle two on the right-hand side?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is there a line of what I call English word demarcation running

20 down the page?

21 A. No, no. There is -- there is a line, but -- but I -- I -- it's a

22 line -- it's an arrow, which shows that this triangle, that the text on

23 the left side is -- is concerned -- concerns the left triangle, if you can

24 see there is an arrow.

25 Q. I wonder, perhaps, if we can put this particular diagram, it's

Page 6573

1 difficult to represent it verbally. Can we see that? Yes. Now what I

2 wanted to ask you about, we have got the two inverted triangles?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now you see the left-hand triangle, if you just put your pen to

5 it, please.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You can see that there is writing that refers to that triangle?

8 Where is that --

9 A. Yes, this writing.

10 Q. Yes. Now, what is this -- this line --

11 A. It covers all this writing. So it goes from this, there, there is

12 an arrow.

13 Q. Thank you. Now let's look at what I will call the central part,

14 JNA 1300 civilians. Do you see that?

15 A. Yes. This is it.

16 Q. Now, the JNA, why is there reference to JNA, 1300 civilians in

17 Velepromet?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Well, why would you write "JNA"? Would you write that as yourself

20 or would it be as a result of what --

21 A. Yes, it is written by me, but I don't know what -- what is the

22 content of it.

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

Page 6574

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I must make an objection. The

2 question by Mr. Moore when he said why is there a reference to 1.300

3 civilians in Velepromet, this is page 91, line 16 to 17, I don't see any

4 reference to that in these notes. I think -- I don't see "JNA" written

5 anywhere like this, so I think in this way perhaps the Prosecutor was

6 suggesting something to the witness that is not actually mentioned in the

7 notes, at least I don't see that in the notes.

8 JUDGE PARKER: You see the screen then, Mr. Lukic? Thank you,

9 it's there.

10 MR. MOORE: And the "Velepromet" is there as well. Maybe the

11 screen is not showing so well.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see it on the screen, and I see how

13 it is written in the translation. It's very correctly written in the

14 written translation. In the middle of this sketch it says first "JNA,"

15 then it says "1300 civilians," and then below that it says: "A part is in

16 Velepromet." That is what it says. But, with his question, the

17 Prosecutor is suggesting on page 91, line 15 -- excuse me, just one

18 moment. Line 12, three -- "1.300 civilians in Velepromet." The question

19 is on page 91, line 12, that is not what it says in the actual notes.

20 JUDGE PARKER: That's sound, Mr. Moore. It appears to be saying,

21 but the witness will be able to understand his notes better than we can,

22 appears to be saying that a part of 1300 --

23 MR. MOORE: Is in Velepromet.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Is in Velepromet.

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 6575

1 MR. MOORE: Let's just clarify, I'm quite happy with that.

2 Q. "JNA" is written by you; is that right?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Can you then clarify, "1300," does that relate to Velepromet or

5 just part of those people in Velepromet?

6 A. It is -- it says that a part of them is in Velepromet, As I

7 understand my remarks today.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Let's just move on, if I may, and leave that

9 particular -- retrieve your notebook, if you would be kind enough, please.

10 Can we deal then, please, with the entry at 14.45?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the next page, "centrum for refugees." So did you actually

13 attend Velepromet?

14 A. Yes, we -- we were there. I remember that Dr. Schou was there as

15 well. We were speaking there with people, you can see that there is

16 written, not by my hand, the name, of the person, I was told that he is a

17 chief of the centre.

18 Q. Well, I wonder if, just to assist the Court, because they haven't

19 got that, can the machine be raised?

20 A. Yes. So, this is the name, and I wrote down by my hand that he is

21 a chief of centre.

22 Q. Thank you very much. And where did you get that name from?

23 A. Somebody has -- has made this remark. It's not my hand.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Now, did that -- did that conclude your

25 dealings on the 18th?

Page 6576

1 A. Just a moment, please. Yes.

2 Q. So on the 18th itself, after Velepromet, where did you go?

3 A. We went to Belgrade to -- but I -- and there used to be usual

4 procedure, but I don't remember.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MR. MOORE: I wonder if the Court now would be kind enough please

7 to turn over to tab 21.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I would just

11 like to clarify for the transcript. My learned friend already dealt with

12 the person who is in charge of Velepromet, but we don't have the name of

13 the person anywhere on the transcript. And now that we have the document,

14 it has not been indicated anywhere. The name of the person is Ljubinko

15 Stojanovic. Actually, the whole conversation, without the name, doesn't

16 mean much to us.

17 JUDGE PARKER: That's very helpful, Mr. Vasic, thank you.

18 Yes, Mr. Moore.

19 MR. MOORE: So I would like, if the Court would be kind enough to

20 turn to divider 21. I will just deal with the ERN numbers, which is

21 00381398, 1399, 1400. And then the translation is 30938, 39 and 40.

22 That's the typed version.

23 Q. Ambassador, I don't know if it's possible for you to do it, to

24 keep -- well, perhaps if I deal with it this way, because we've got two

25 documents in B/C/S and two documents in English. If we just deal with

Page 6577

1 the -- with the tab 21. If we look at page 1400 we've got "Cunningham,"

2 which seems to be the signature at the end; is that right?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Now, this particular document, it refers -- it's from RCB, and its

5 subject matter is, "Negotiations of the evacuation of wounded people from

6 Vukovar Hospital"?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then there is a date. Now, what date is this, please?

9 A. It is the 19th, 1400 hours, probably. But I don't know. It's a

10 military style, and --

11 Q. Well, can I see if I can assist you? If you turned to the typed

12 copy of your notes?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you go to the 19th of November?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you look at the entry, it should say, I hope, "Negoslavci

17 1400."

18 A. Yes, it is. In my notes there is the 19th of 11.

19 Q. All right. If we're dealing with it, I'm not trying to lead you

20 but trying to clarify, tab 21 seems to be a document created by

21 Cunningham?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In relation to the briefing. And the document that you have, the

24 Kypr notebook, is your notes?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6578

1 Q. Would that be right?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. All right. Well, let's deal firstly with your notes, and then we

4 can deal with other matters subsequently. So dealing with your notes,

5 please. What was the first entry?

6 A. First entry is,"Negoslavci, the 19th of November, Colonel Mrksic,

7 Colonel Pavkovic, operation group south, 1400 hours in Negoslavci.

8 Evacuation of civilians. After yesterday's surrender of Croats,

9 approximately 3.500 people, through night the people were transported."

10 The next point is, "Transported through Lipovac" -- sorry, "Transport

11 through Lipovac was not allowed by Croatian authorities."

12 Q. And that is a briefing or your -- information that you had?

13 A. It is a briefing.

14 Q. Thank you. Yes, carry on, please.

15 A. "The people are now in Morovic. Croatian authorities requested to

16 send them between 1500 and 1600 hours near Nustar. It's a short time. We

17 can't do that." Or "it".

18 Q. Yes?

19 A. The next point, "People wanted to go back and there in Ovcara,

20 Negoslavci and other places," means those points in my style of

21 writing. "Will wait new destination." There is written "destiny," but it

22 has no sense.

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. The next point is, "Sweeping mines by JNA on the road through

25 Marinci will be terminated the 20th at 8.00 in the morning."

Page 6579

1 Q. Yes, and then turning over, please?

2 A. "A car of ECMM on the beginning and at the end of convoy." The

3 next sentence is, "Protested in the name of SSNO mistreating 2.000 people

4 in Morovic to Zagreb."

5 Q. Yes?

6 A. Next point, "People from Morovic will go probably" -- it's my

7 interpretation, "to Ovcara".

8 Q. Right. I would like to stop, if you would be kind enough, please,

9 and put your original notebook on the highlighter. Now, I want to refer

10 to the reference, "Protested" -- I haven't got that still on my screen.

11 Yes, there we are. So we've got the large exclamation mark.

12 So, "Protested in the name of SSNO." The rest of the notes are in blue.

13 Why was this in red?

14 A. Probably to stress the importance of the -- of the message.

15 Q. And the message being what?

16 A. The message is that in the name of SSNO, which, I believe, it

17 is -- it is Savezni Sekretarijat Za, MOD. MOD. Mistreating 3.000 people

18 in Morovic to Zagreb, it has something to do with the transport that --

19 the transport from Morovic to Zagreb wasn't able to move, but I -- I don't

20 remember more.

21 Q. And who exactly is the SSNO? What is there function? You said

22 that you're dealings with the Balkans?

23 A. It was told that it is that those on the other side of the -- of

24 the table, probably the -- the Colonel Pavkovic or Colonel Mrksic were

25 protesting in the name of SSNO. Because there was no -- as I remember,

Page 6580

1 there was no civil persons to -- which used to be from the Ministry of

2 Defence.

3 Q. So you think it was Colonel Mrksic or Colonel Pavkovic who were

4 protesting?

5 A. Or somebody -- somebody from the other side, from the side of JNA.

6 Q. Thank you. Can we just take your notes back, please? Now, what

7 is -- we've already dealt with Morovic to Ovcara. Can we deal, please,

8 with the next entry, which should, I hope, deal with radio intercepts that

9 allegedly have been made.

10 A. Yeah. "Radio intercepts. We intend to get representatives in the

11 Vukovar Hospital and in that way to ensure that nobody is taken out of

12 there."

13 Q. And what did you understand that meant?

14 A. It means that we were told that it was intercepted by JNA, by the

15 JNA, nothing more. I have no other information, because ECMM has no

16 interception.

17 Q. No --

18 A. Possibilities.

19 Q. Of course. But: "We intend to representatives in the Vukovar

20 Hospital, and in that way to ensure that nobody is taken out of there."

21 What did you think that meant that caused you to write it down?

22 A. I believe that they wish to ensure the situation in Vukovar's

23 hospital as it is.

24 Q. And who is "they"?

25 A. Croats.

Page 6581

1 Q. Thank you. Let's deal with the next, please. The next entry.

2 A. The next entry, it's an information that there are 600 to 800

3 wounded, 300 of them badly. I can't read it now. Yes, lying. "We have

4 no any guarantee of their care in Zidine."

5 It relates to the crossing point because they, it means those

6 wounded people, had to be hand over to Croatian hands in Zidine, probably.

7 It's the sense of this sentence. "We provide enough vehicles and also

8 medical staff, which will take care of the mission."

9 Q. Yes?

10 A. Enough number of ambulances, certain number of buses for slightly

11 wounded. Medical groups of JNA will go to the hospital. Vehicles will

12 come to Negoslavci the 20th of November at 700 hours with escort of

13 military police, and they will move to hospital. "Driving will go from

14 Vukovar to Bogdanovci, Marinci, Zidine."

15 Q. And that was the route that was being proposed; is that right?

16 A. Yes, yes. "Our engineers are cleaning road." There is down on

17 the page remark "hostages" but I can't refer to what.

18 Q. Now, can we deal with any timings that were given, please, for the

19 20th?

20 A. For the 20th, on the next page, there is 7.30 will start loading

21 of wounded people.

22 Q. And the wounded of people from where?

23 A. I don't know. It should be wounded people are aware, as we were

24 informed only in Vukovar, but I have no information there.

25 Q. So when there was reference to Vukovar Hospital, was that a

Page 6582

1 separate consideration for you?

2 A. No. No, it -- it is Vukovar Hospital, but it is not -- there is

3 no mention Vukovar Hospital, so you ask me from where, so it is not

4 mentioned there. I wish to be as precise as possible.

5 Q. Yes, well thanks for that. And then what was the next timing you

6 had, please?

7 A. 1615.

8 Q. And where was that entry?

9 A. It was on the same spot, probably. "Serbs, Territorial Defence" --

10 sorry, I will use probably, this -- this part of translation.

11 Okay. I will translate it by my own, but please use the official

12 translation there. "Serbs, Territorial Defence, volunteers, will not

13 allow us -- will not allow that convoy can pass through -- can go if there

14 is in it will be even only one single Croatian soldier. If people knew

15 that in the convoy are Ustashas, they will liquidise all in the convoy as

16 well as us and you. And there is no one agreement which can resolve

17 that."

18 Q. Now, who was telling you that the volunteers would not allow the

19 convoy to pass through, and indeed if there was a single Croatian

20 soldier/Ustasha on it?

21 A. I don't remember. It was somebody from JNA side.

22 Q. Well, let's see if we can try and remember where you are when this

23 was being said to you. Now, who was telling you this? Was it military or

24 was it civilian?

25 A. No, military. There were on the other side from the side of JNA,

Page 6583

1 there were only -- only military persons. I don't remember that there are

2 some civilians.

3 Q. Yes. And can you remember where you were when this was said to

4 you? We know that you were around the Vukovar area, but were you in

5 Vukovar? Can you please try and paint a picture for the Court?

6 A. It was some small house, I believe, but I can't remember more. I

7 know that I was sitting and behind me there were doors, so ...

8 Q. All right.

9 A. But I -- I have no other ...

10 Q. You have told us that it was JNA. Have you any idea of the sort

11 of rank of the person or number of persons who were there?

12 A. No.

13 Q. All right. Let us --

14 A. But there were even other monitors, so --

15 Q. Yes, but I'm just asking about you, if you can remember?

16 A. I don't remember.

17 Q. All right. You've told us, then, about liquidate. Let's carry

18 on, then, please.

19 A. "As concerns us, we can fully respect the point, but we can't

20 guarantee that they will -- that they -- you and no one single wounded can

21 go -- can leave -- can abandon Vukovar if there is own -- even only

22 one" -- there is no full stop.

23 Q. Well, just to help everybody, you of course had this document in

24 the original form. You were asked to go through it with a language

25 assistant for an interpretation, perhaps less stressful circumstances?

Page 6584

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. And we have the document, the typed document for that translation.

3 Would it assist you to --

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. -- stick to the --

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. The typed document? The interpretation that I have is -- could

8 you just listen for a moment, Ambassador, please?

9 A. Yes, I am listening.

10 Q. Thank you very much. That as for us, we can fully respect this

11 point, so we cannot guarantee to you or any wounded person to leave

12 Vukovar if there is only one there.

13 Does that correspond?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Thank you very much. "If there is only one there," to what is

16 that being referred? Well, you have it your notes, I think, don't you?

17 A. It's only one -- it can be the same as -- as in previous,

18 because --

19 Q. All right.

20 A. As in previous statement.

21 Q. Thank you. Let's just move on, please. What is the next entry?

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, I'm sorry, but we've reached well over

23 time and virtually the end of the tape. We must, I'm afraid now, adjourn

24 and resume on Monday at 2.15. Sorry about that.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

Page 6585

1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of March,

2 2006, at 2.15 p.m.