Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6586

1 Monday, 27 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. If I could remind you of the

7 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence, which continues to

8 apply.

9 Mr. Moore.

10 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

11 Your Honour, just before we commence, I have had an opportunity

12 with Ms. Sandra D'Angelo and the registry to try and work out a system

13 that is not so long-winded in reading out all the numbers. I hope that

14 this meets with the Court approval. What we did on Friday was we provided

15 to the registry an index of all the annexes in relation to the tabs, and

16 Your Honours should have them in your bundle in any event. What I am

17 hoping to do is to call out the tab that we will be referring to, and then

18 the four last numbers, which would relate to that tab itself and indicate

19 whether it's English or B/C/S, without repeating the previous 12 numbers.

20 On the basis that, quite simply, that it is the -- it's targeted on the

21 tab itself and the page numbers, and one should be able to find that. I

22 don't know if that will speed things along a little and make it less

23 complicated.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Anything that will achieve those objectives will be

25 encouraged. We will try it and see.

Page 6587

1 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.


3 Examination by Mr. Moore: [Continued]

4 Q. Witness, we had reached -- it was tab 21, but in actual fact we

5 were going through your notes. You had the translation, which had been

6 typed up with your agreement and checking, and could you return to that

7 page where it is actually down at the bottom right-hand corner, 6 of 17

8 and ET number 7792. Now, have you got the draft copy?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And have you got bottom right-hand corner, 6 of 17?

11 A. 6 of 17, yes.

12 Q. You have that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you very much. And we were dealing with the reference

15 to 0468-7770, which was the number of your original Kypr book. And just

16 reading so we take it into context "we can make it possible to." Do you

17 see that part?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, do you wish to refer to the original document, would that

20 make it easier for yourself, or would you prefer to refer to the typed

21 copy?

22 A. I can use the typed copy.

23 Q. All right. Thank you very much, indeed. Well, that being the

24 case, it was originally in B/C/S.

25 A. Yes, it was originally in B/C/S. And it started at 1615 and we

Page 6588

1 were told that Serbs Territorial Defence volunteers will not allow convoy

2 pass through if there is a single Croatian soldier in it. If the people

3 knew that Ustashas were in the convoy, then would liquidate you, means

4 European monitoring commission and us, JNA guard in the convoy. There is

5 no agreement which could resolve that.

6 Q. Yes. You have told us this, but let's just continue then.

7 A. Yes, I will continue.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 A. "As for us, we can follow through on that item, so we cannot

10 guarantee to you or any wounded people to leave Vukovar if there is only

11 one there."

12 Q. Thank you. Now, we turn over to the original page ending in

13 7770. It was originally in B/C/S. And the translation which you agreed,

14 what did that say then, please?

15 A. It follows the previous text: "We can make it possible too so

16 believe that it will end tragically."

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. "I assume that we will be stopped on our way and they will check

19 it. We can't guarantee security but not in the case if they find

20 somebody."

21 Q. Now when you were told this, did you ask any questions about who

22 the people who were causing the trouble, allegedly, who they were?

23 A. I remember that it was longer discussion about that. We said that

24 JNA is -- is superior power on this territory, and that General Raseta

25 made this agreement and that JNA is responsible for the convoy. And we

Page 6589

1 were told that the terrain is very difficult and that they can stop the

2 convoy any -- anyway. According the remarks, you can see from -- from my

3 books that there was during the discussion mentioned even Seselj

4 volunteers.

5 Q. Yes?

6 A. And there is a remark that: "They from/illegible/reason, will

7 kill us all."

8 Q. Yes. Now here was a situation, are they saying it is only the

9 Seselj volunteers, or is it the case that it is wider than that and Seselj

10 volunteers are part of that group?

11 A. No, it was wider than that. Those volunteers were mentioned only

12 as a part of that. Because you can see that Territorial Defence

13 volunteers, so it covers more than only Seselj troops.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Here again is a situation where there is

15 reference to that if any, I use the word, Ustasha soldiers are in your

16 convoy, they couldn't guarantee your safety. Was there any plan to remove

17 people who were preserved as being Territorials and dealing with them

18 separately?

19 A. The plan, not according the agreement, not according our

20 preparations for convoy. We were told that only this, that if there is

21 anybody in -- in the convoy from mentioned groups, that we will be killed.

22 So it's not -- it was not precisely mentioned what will be the procedure.

23 Q. Now, what is the next entry that you have in your notes, please,

24 from that briefing?

25 A. "We, JNA, are protecting those people, otherwise they would be

Page 6590

1 killed immediately even though they are wounded."

2 Q. Now, let's just look at that for a moment. "We, the JNA, are

3 protecting those people." Who are "those people," the people who would

4 otherwise be killed immediately?

5 A. In this sense, it is connected with those people of -- who are in

6 the hospital as -- as Croatian soldiers. I understand -- as I understand

7 the text.

8 Q. And what was your understanding then that what was to happen with

9 the Croatian soldiers who were in the hospital? What was to happen to

10 them?

11 A. Now I can only assume from this text that there was an intention

12 of JNA to remove them and to keep them safe.

13 Q. And is there any record at all in relation to that, any discussion

14 in your records about that?

15 A. If you allow me, we were complaining that wounded prisoners of war

16 are a part of this Raseta's agreement.

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. From Zagreb, and Colonel Cunningham really strictly rejected that

19 many times, and I remember that Dr. Schou as well.

20 Q. Rejected what?

21 A. To remove people from -- from the convoy or from hospital.

22 Q. What was the basis for their rejection or objecting to that

23 proposed course by the JNA?

24 A. It was a so-called -- I am using the term Raseta's agreement, so

25 if I may to refer to some text.

Page 6591

1 Q. If you go, I think we have had already as an exhibit, but I think

2 it's also at divider 20.

3 A. Yes, it is the text. It is the text. It's from the 19th of

4 October.

5 Q. So what -- what was your understanding about the agreement that

6 was going to happen to all those wounded and sick?

7 A. It's paragraph 5 in this -- in this agreement: "The evacuation

8 will include all those wounded or sick undergoing medical treatment in

9 Vukovar Hospital who are judged by the authorities of the hospital to be

10 fit to make the journey."

11 There is no other possibility. Only authorities of the hospital.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Let's just continue, if I may, please. I

13 want to deal with your original page number 0468-7771, which was

14 originally in B/C/S, translated into English.

15 A. Mm-hmm.

16 Q. Now, can we deal with that entry, please?

17 A. Yes. "They came to protest and we explained to them who would be

18 permitted to leave Vukovar. There are some wounded officers who will be

19 exchanged for ours."

20 Q. Can we deal, please, with "they," the word "they." "They came to

21 protest and we explained to them who would be permitted to leave Vukokar."

22 And, now, firstly who is this speaking? Is it ECMM?

23 A. No, it is JNA.

24 Q. And to what does this refer?

25 A. I don't know exactly who -- what is the reason of that. I assume

Page 6592

1 that it is -- it is when JNA was in a contact of Croatian forces in

2 Vukovar, because there were -- I know that there were some negotiations

3 going on.

4 Q. And the phrase: "We explained to them who would be leaving -- who

5 would be permitted to leave Vukovar." Now, what do you mean by that, or

6 what was meant by that, "who would be permitted to leave Vukovar"?

7 Because under the agreement it seems to suggest that all wounded would be

8 permitted to leave Vukovar.

9 A. Yes. But it was -- I don't know what was the -- the explanation

10 of the army to those people. I can't say it.

11 Q. You can't remember?

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. All right. Let's move then, please, to the next entry, which

14 is 1635?

15 A. Yeah. 1635 there was presented a message from Zagreb ICRC,

16 International Committee of the Red Cross, and the sentence I -- I wrote

17 is: "Part of the wounded people have been taken out from the hospital

18 without care."

19 Q. Now, when you say "without care," in actual fact, I don't know

20 whether on the typed version it says "problems." If it is, I think you

21 looked at the translation and amended that. Is that right?

22 A. I will do that, just a moment, sir. In original it says

23 "bez brige," means without -- without care, without -- I understand that

24 without appropriate medical care.

25 Q. All right. Thank you very much. If you would just --

Page 6593

1 A. That's my understanding.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, the entry at 1635, here it's clearly somebody is

3 speaking. Part of the wounded persons have been taken out of the hospital

4 without appropriate medical care. Who is saying that?

5 A. The message came probably through International Red Cross, because

6 the representative was there, but it could be done even -- even through

7 ECMM sources. I can't say.

8 Q. Now, dealing with this particular entry, was that occurring 1635,

9 the original briefing, the time of the briefing was 1615. Here we are

10 at 1635, approximately 20 minutes later. Are you able to say that when

11 you wrote this down who said it?

12 A. No, I am not.

13 Q. Are you able to say whether that was communicated to the JNA, that

14 there was concern?

15 A. Yes, it was. Because there is another sentence afterwards and

16 it's the answer probably of JNA to -- to this information.

17 Q. And what was the reply, as far as you understand it?

18 A. "We don't know anything about it. I think that it is from Croat

19 top to show that JNA is doing massacres against wounded people."

20 Q. So as far as you are aware, that particular entry at 1635 --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- was communicated to someone in the JNA and that was the reply?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can we just turn over the typed copy, please? Now, there is a

25 question posed: "Is the JNA securing the hospital, and is there a chance

Page 6594

1 that somebody is taken out without the JNA knowing about it?"

2 Who posed that question, which seems to be a -- a natural flow

3 from the earlier question and answer?

4 A. Yeah, I can't say who is the author of that. I believe that it

5 was somebody from ECMM delegation, or Dr. Schou or Cunningham.

6 Q. Schou or Cunningham. Now, there is a reference, a query about,

7 well, is the hospital being secured or not and is there a chance that

8 somebody could be taken out without the JNA knowing about it. What was

9 the reply, if there was any reply to that? Did you make a record of that?

10 A. I have -- I have another record there, the second sentence

11 afterwards the remark, and it is about three JNA soldiers, who are

12 captured there were taken out from the hospital and they are in the

13 Negoslavci hospital.

14 Q. But I think it's right it say that there is an entry just

15 immediately before that; is that right?

16 A. Yes. It -- it's the answer of JNA: "We cannot assume that before

17 they took their wounded men from whom they thought."

18 Q. I'm sorry, so the question is: Is the JNA securing the hospital

19 and is there a chance that somebody is taken out without the JNA knowing

20 about it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The answer is again, I think you had a problem with the

23 translation?

24 A. I will check the translation, if it is right. Just a moment.

25 It's -- it's a wrong translation, because there are -- the answer

Page 6595

1 is on -- I will repeat the question for -- for better understanding.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. "Is JNA securing the hospital, is there a chance that somebody is

4 taken out without JNA knowing it?"

5 And the answer is: "No. We can presume or assume that before

6 they took their -- those their wounded men for whom they have an interest

7 or they sought."

8 Q. And "they" clearly, presumably, relates to the Croats; is that

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So try to clarify exactly what the reply was. It then goes

12 on: "Three JNA soldiers who were captured were taken from the hospital

13 and they are in the Negoslavci hospital."

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. What was the conclusion that the JNA representative made?

16 A. I think that it is not in -- in connection with -- with the

17 sentence I have read or interpreted before. It's -- it's -- it's an

18 information only that three JNA soldiers who were captured were taken out

19 of the hospital and they are in the Negoslavci hospital, which means in

20 JNA hospital.

21 Q. All right. Let's deal with that point, if I may then, please.

22 We've got reference by way of information, three JNA soldiers were

23 captured, they were taken from the hospital, and they are in the

24 Negoslavci hospital. Was there any suggestion that those JNA soldiers had

25 been mistreated in the Vukovar Hospital?

Page 6596

1 A. Yes. We were told that the Serb -- people of Serb origin were

2 mistreated in Vukovar Hospital.

3 Q. And with regard to the three JNA soldiers, is there any reference

4 to that?

5 A. I don't remember. I don't remember.

6 Q. Can you just clarify why it is that there is no reference by you

7 about allegations of Serb mistreatment?

8 A. I don't know, but it was said many times and it was a part of

9 presentation. I can't say.

10 Q. Can we then move, then, please, to -- that finishes the 19th, that

11 document. If we can just set that aside. I want to deal with number

12 20 -- tab 21. Have you got that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As we have already established, this was a document created by

15 Cunningham?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And Cunningham was actually present with you when this briefing

18 was given; is that correct or not?

19 A. Yes, it is correct.

20 Q. So let's just go through, as it is in slightly more detail. We've

21 got the date, we've got the various individuals, and we have one name that

22 I just want to deal with initially. You've got Colonel Pavkovic?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. Now -- and he's down as what, please? What was the role assigned

25 to him?

Page 6597

1 A. As JNA commander, Operation Group South in Vukovar.

2 Q. How was it that Colonel Pavkovic was supposed to be JNA commander

3 Operation Group South, Vukovar, when he clearly wasn't?

4 A. I don't know. You can see the -- this -- this part is written

5 by -- not by Cunningham's hand. It is written by somebody else. But we

6 wrote down the name of -- of JNA army representatives on the other side

7 only in the manner we were -- we were told that they are. We haven't

8 checked them.

9 Q. You didn't check?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Very well. Let's then deal, please, with number 1 entry.

12 A. And for instance, there are even some mistakes in transcription

13 because Major Saric is there mentioned, and it was Major Zaric. So there

14 can be even some misinterpretation of names.

15 Q. All right. So you don't know how these names actually -- where

16 they came from?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. The JNA names. Well, let's deal, then, please, with halfway down

19 the place we've got place, headquarter JNA in Negoslavci. You've got that

20 there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Point 1A, pertinent points follow. The whole city, including

23 hospital, under JNA control.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now do you agree with that analysis or not, from what you saw?

Page 6598

1 A. It's what we were told, that the whole city, including hospital,

2 under JNA control.

3 Q. So that was what you were told about -- by the JNA. "Hospital

4 management replaced by" --

5 A. "By military doctors and personnel."

6 Q. And then there is reference to prepared -- "JNA prepared totally

7 for their part of the evacuation."

8 Now, I just want to turn over, please, to the next page, which

9 is 1399. C refers to the route, but I want to refer to d, and

10 paragraph 5. Now, if you can keep your finger on that particular page,

11 but go to tab 20, which is the agreement that we have already referred to

12 this morning -- well, this afternoon, and the Court already have it as an

13 exhibit. This is the evacuation agreement. And let's just read this

14 particular document. Is this the fax that you had received?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Right. Well, let's just read what 5 says: "The evacuation will

17 include all those wounded or sick undergoing medical treatment in Vukovar

18 Hospital who are judged by the authorities of the hospital to be fit to

19 make the journey."

20 Now, here we have -- well, have you any difficult with that? I

21 see --

22 A. No, it's okay.

23 Q. Let's turn to this page that is handwritten, the Cunningham

24 document.

25 A. Cunningham document.

Page 6599

1 Q. Paragraph 5 of the fax.

2 A. Yes. "Signed by Croat and JNA authorities. Evoked much

3 discussion. Colonel Pavkovic stated that prisoners of war would not be

4 allowed to depart. As far as the prisoners are under JNA control, second,

5 if he did, Serbs irregular/local citizens would attack the convoy. Three,

6 the prisoners of war would be exchanged for JNA prisoners of war at some

7 future times."

8 Q. Thank you very much. Well, here you have the faxed document, what

9 I'm going to call the evacuation agreement, if I may, and here you have,

10 quite simply, this entry in the Cunningham document stating that "evoked

11 much discussion." Well, here was a situation being stated to you that the

12 prisoners of wars are under the JNA control. Well, what was actually then

13 going to happen, because it was -- it was contrary, was it not, to what

14 the evacuation agreement said?

15 A. It was -- it was -- it was contrary to the agreement, so it's why

16 Colonel Cunningham argued with -- with -- with JNA authorities, please

17 follow the agreement. It's necessary.

18 Q. And when you say Cunningham argued, how forcefully did Cunningham

19 argue?

20 A. He was a very strong military man, but -- but not shouting. He

21 was -- he was only stressing the importance of the thing, because it was

22 one of those crucial parts of agreement.

23 Q. And what sort of things was he saying about the apparent breach of

24 the evacuation agreement?

25 A. I don't remember, sir.

Page 6600

1 Q. Well, did he agree or did he disagree?

2 A. No, he disagree. He disagreed that it is not possible not to obey

3 the signature of General Raseta who swear in the name of JNA that it will

4 be fulfilled.

5 Q. Did the Geneva Convention or any of those particulars feature in

6 the discussion?

7 A. Yes, as well.

8 Q. Well, could you be kind enough to tell us, please?

9 A. I don't remember in detail.

10 Q. Well, would you like to try to remember generally? Basically what

11 I want to know is what the ECMM position was in relation to the breach of

12 the agreement vis-a-vis various obligations.

13 A. It was a simple statement that there is violate the Geneva

14 Convention. It's -- we have to stress it each time when we saw that --

15 that there are some violations of that.

16 Q. And when you -- when --

17 A. But I believe that it was mentioned even by International Red

18 Cross representative.

19 Q. Well, we'll due with that in due course, but I want to deal with

20 you, please. You were present at the time and were present when Colonel

21 Cunningham stressed in a forceful way about the breach of -- alleged

22 breach of the evacuation agreement. So can you help the Court, please,

23 what was said when Cunningham declared that he was not happy?

24 A. I have no idea, really, on that. I know it was -- it was

25 generally said, but concretely I -- I have no detailed --

Page 6601

1 Q. All right. Well, let's deal with the prisoners of war are under

2 JNA control. What was going to happen to those prisoners of war? Did you

3 inquire about that?

4 A. You mean after the evacuation of Vukovar's hospital or before?

5 Q. It could be both. It's really for you to answer. The question --

6 A. Before --

7 Q. May I finish? The prisoners of war under JNA control, clearly you

8 would have been interested in what was going to happen to them at some

9 stage, or not?

10 A. Before the evacuation there was violate the agreement of -- signed

11 by General Raseta. So we insisted that the agreement should be fulfilled

12 and if there are some wounded prisoners of, some wounded people from

13 Croatian army, that they should be evacuated to Croatian side, according

14 article 5 of this agreement.

15 Q. May I ask then the following in relation to number 2: If he did

16 Serb irregulars/local citizens would attack the convoy. Was it ever

17 suggested to extract from these prisoners of war people who were

18 considered to be Croatian soldiers, defenders, whatever generic term you

19 wish to use?

20 A. We strictly denied it, and we said that we will risk it and that

21 we wished to have convoy as it is, so with all the people.

22 Q. All right. Thank you very much. Let's move on to E, if I may.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. "Colonel Pavkovic" -- if it be Pavkovic -- "did not know the state

25 of the hospital and did not know how it might be used in the future."

Page 6602

1 How did that arise, please, that entry? And f, if you would wish

2 to read f as well, please.

3 A. Well, it means that the situation in the hospital was really very

4 difficult, and it was not clear if it can still be used as -- as -- for

5 medical care. So if the patients in hospital who can't be moved, how

6 to -- how it is possible to provide the necessary care for them --

7 Q. All right.

8 A. -- is the explanation.

9 Q. Let's deal then with paragraph 2. It deals with the involvement

10 of the International Committee of the Red Cross. May we deal with that,

11 please?

12 A. "Involvement with Red Cross was very limited, and I am not certain

13 what arrangements they have made writing list of wounded persons to be

14 moved or if then they have determined and agreed a" -- I don't know. "Of

15 neutrality, as para 6 of fax."

16 Q. Shall we look at paragraph 6 then, please? Divider 20, page

17 number 1397.

18 A. "The Republic of Croatia and the Yugoslav People's Army will

19 recognise the neutrality of Vukovar Hospital during a period covering the

20 evacuation. The hospital will be put under the protection of the ICRC who

21 will advise both parties of the period of neutrality which they require."

22 Q. So can we just deal then with paragraph 6 vis-a-vis the ECMM

23 position for monitoring. Here you've got in paragraph 6 the recognition

24 or apparent recognition of the neutrality of the Vukovar Hospital.

25 Can I help you, Ambassador? You seem to be looking for another

Page 6603

1 document.

2 A. Okay. So we -- during the discussion there on the meeting, we

3 recognised that there is an intention of International Red Cross to go to

4 Vukovar's hospital before -- as soon as possible in the afternoon or in

5 the evening, and that they will make -- they will make a list of people

6 who are there and they will prepare appropriate -- appropriate evacuation

7 scheme for them and so on and so on.

8 Q. Well, rather than so on and so on, can we just look please at the

9 phrase: "The hospital will be put under the protection of the ICRC."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What is meant by "under the protection of the ICRC," as you

12 understand it at that time?

13 A. That everybody will respect them as the highest authority on

14 the -- on the spot, as concerning humanitarian and medical care.

15 Q. And as far as you are aware, was that something that the JNA

16 agreed at the meeting, what I will call the Colonel Pavkovic meeting?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Well, can you just look to see if there is any reference to

19 disagreeing, please?

20 A. Not in my remarks.

21 Q. Yes. And just for completeness sake, can we just see what the

22 bottom entry is on page -- what I call the -- have you got it there,

23 Ambassador?

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. Page 1399, it's the reference to para 6 of the fax message. It

Page 6604

1 seems to be -- it says: "For RCB"?

2 A. Yes, it is here. For RCB. Thus will monitor move of refugees and

3 hospital evacuation."

4 Q. Yes?

5 A. May I -- sir, may I? There is another reference in another

6 message --

7 Q. Yes, of course.

8 A. -- on that, so I --

9 Q. May I just deal with this.

10 A. I remember that.

11 Q. May I just deal with this, and then I suspect I will be able to

12 take you to another document. But may we just deal, please, with the

13 "four RCB teams will monitor." What does that mean then, please?

14 A. It means there will be four -- four groups of Red Cross people who

15 will monitor the removal or evacuation of refugees and the hospital

16 evacuation.

17 Q. Yes. Now, you said that you wished to refer to another document.

18 Which tab is that, please?

19 A. It is the tab 31.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. 31. And it's the task we got from tasking cell we got from your

22 headquarters, missions headquarters in Zagreb, on the 19th of October

23 at --

24 Q. 2015?

25 A. 2015.

Page 6605

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. And there in article 5 --

3 Q. Well, can I just -- before we move on, I will give the numbers so

4 that we all know what we're talking about, because I can move to that

5 straight away.

6 So this would be tab 31. It's actually 65 ter number 253, as far

7 as I am aware. The English version is 1446, and the translations from

8 the B/C/S 3619.

9 A. Sir, I mean another -- I mean 1443. It's the task for us.

10 Q. Well, what we will do is, it's ERN 00381442 running through to

11 00381446. In reality, it's 1446 through to -- 1442 to 1446. If we just

12 turn to that for a moment.

13 MR. MOORE: And is it possible for that B/C/S version to be put on

14 the screen for the Defence? It would be -- it really should read "message

15 form." In actual fact, it's 1443 is the one that I'm looking for.

16 Q. While that's just being clarified, Ambassador, could you just

17 that the document that you are referring to, does that have at the

18 heading "message form?"

19 A. Yes, message form. And I will check it, yes, it is.

20 Q. And it should have as its first format, it says: "Fax message

21 urgent." And it's five.

22 A. No, I can't see.

23 Q. I think go back one more.

24 A. Yes, there is priority.

25 Q. If you go back one more page on the original.

Page 6606

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. So if you go to your tab 31?

3 A. Yes, it is. It is.

4 Q. Yes. So the first page indicates that it is a fax. It has five

5 pages; is that right?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. If we go to the original, you may find that more helpful than the

8 actual -- would you go to the original, Ambassador, please?

9 A. Yes, I am.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 A. Subject is evacuation of Vukovar's hospital, the 20th of 11th.

12 And the date of document is the 19th of November. We got it in 2214

13 minutes on the 19th.

14 Q. And we can see that from the top of the page and the fax -- fax

15 number. Can we turn the page, then, please?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Page 1443. And this, again, is a message form coming through?

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. And it's to whom then, please?

20 A. The message is to liaison office, Belgrade, and to teams Alpha and

21 Charlie in Djakovo because there were already prepared teams from I think

22 Zagreb who will follow the convoy during the way, so ...

23 Q. And am I right in saying that when you say "liaison office," that

24 is actually different, because there appears to be comma between liaison

25 office, or officer, and Belgrade?

Page 6607

1 A. Belgrade, yes.

2 Q. So there are two different locations, not just one?

3 A. Yes. Belgrade means Belgrade centre.

4 Q. And liaison office is where?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Very well. Let us then look at entry one, then, please. What

7 does that say?

8 A. Entry one is: "Evacuation Vukovar's hospital, the 20th of

9 November, 1991. Attached agreement of 18th of November refers meeting in

10 Zagreb today. Decided the following: Number 2, loading of wounded will

11 start the 20th, 8.00 in the morning."

12 Q. So the 20th, I think it says November, doesn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. 20th of November, 8.00 in the morning, is the loading of the

15 wounded; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yes?

18 A. Number 3: "Handover of wounded by JNA to Croatia authorities will

19 take place in Zidine at the specified cross-roads, the 20th of November at

20 11.00," probably.

21 Q. In the morning?

22 A. In the morning.

23 Q. And 4, please?

24 A. 4: "We are informed all wounded are transportable."

25 Q. So all wounded are transportable?

Page 6608

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. 5?

3 A. 5: "The rules of Geneva Conventions will apply to all wounded

4 prisoners of war, i.e., they will be interviewed individually and

5 privately."

6 Probably it's paragraph 5 convention, but --

7 Q. Paragraph 5 continued, perhaps?

8 A. Continue, yeah, continue. "To ascertain where they want to go."

9 Q. Yes. And 6?

10 A. 6: "ICRC will compile a list of all wounded being evacuated from

11 the hospital and check that they are all loaded on the transport. They

12 will then check the wounded on arrival at Zidine according to the lists to

13 ensure that they have all arrived at the handover point. Red Cross have

14 undertaken to have sufficient personnel to" --

15 Q. "Perform"?

16 A. "Perform," yes. "Perform this" --

17 Q. "Function"?

18 A. "Function."

19 And the point 7 is: Monitors from liaison office, Belgrade, will

20 monitor the operation from the hospital in paragraph 7 continues, Vukovar

21 to the handover point in Zidine to ensure that the agreed procedure have

22 been complied with by all" -- I can't read it. It's illegible for me.

23 "Parties" maybe. And there is another by another handwritten to the fax

24 that: "The Red Cross will travel from Vukovar with the convoy to carry

25 out this function."

Page 6609

1 Point 8: "Teams from Zagreb and Belgrade to make" --

2 Q. It's either "easy" or "early" but I --

3 A. "Early communications, checks and ensure That they keep lock" --

4 Q. "Each other informed"?

5 A. "Each other informed on" --

6 Q. "Progress"?

7 A. "Progress," maybe, yes. Yes, it's progress. "As well as

8 headquarters in Zagreb."

9 8A: "Remind both sides of obligation to cease-fire."

10 Q. And --

11 A. And point 9: "Regards to all."

12 Q. Yes, we've got the drafter's name in the bottom right-hand corner?

13 A. Yeah, it's the head of the tasking cell.

14 MR. MOORE: Just when we'll dealing with it, just for completeness

15 sake, I'm going to ask the Court to refer to tab 29 which, I hope, will

16 reveal another document. Which is -- if I may get my notes. It's ERN

17 00381437 going up to 1438 with a B/C/S translation of 03040263 to 264.

18 The document that I would seek to adduce, and might I just make

19 application in any event to make an exhibit of tab 31 documents, please?

20 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

21 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be exhibit number 315.

23 MR. MOORE: And then can we deal with the -- the document that I

24 have referred to, we will come to it again in due course in tab 29, but

25 the fourth, top right-hand corner, 4 of 4, it's page number 1436. I hope

Page 6610

1 that it will be a typed copy, which gives -- should be coming to the

2 command of the 5th Military District. Is that on the screen in B/C/S or

3 not?

4 A. Just a moment. No, it is not.

5 Q. Well, I will --

6 A. It's the end of -- of the -- the previous message from --

7 Q. Yes. But I'm just going to -- Ambassador, I'm just going to try

8 to deal with this and then come back. Because I'm trying to deal with

9 five documents at one time.

10 So how is that translation -- I've got the English version. Has

11 the translation arrived or the defendants' screens yet? It's 1436, the

12 last four numbers of tab 29.

13 A. I do have it, but it is not in B/C/S version.

14 Q. Well, I've got it now, in B/C/S, I hope. On my screen. Do the

15 defendants have it?

16 A. It is, but it is not the same text as 1436, as you mentioned.

17 1436, yes.

18 Q. Well, let's see if we can do 145. I don't see how it can be

19 myself. Is that it now? It should read to the command of the

20 5th Military District.

21 A. I have this original, but it is not -- just a moment. Maybe it is

22 inside the text somewhere.

23 No, it is -- it is not the text. It is not the text. Maybe I can

24 put the -- the B/C/S version to the display.

25 Q. Thank you very much, but we have got an extremely expensive

Page 6611

1 e-court system that should be able to almost sing and dance.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I am in the Court's hands.

4 JUDGE THELIN: I believe they are trying to find it.

5 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

6 Q. There, we've got it now.

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Can we deal then with the English version?

9 A. The English version is an original.

10 Q. Yes, thank you very much. We've got to the command of the

11 5th Military District, care of General Raseta.

12 A. Raseta. Zagreb, November the 20th.

13 Q. Yes, do carry on, please.

14 A. "Accordingly to the oral agreement reached on November 20th about

15 transfer of wounded and ill from the Vukovar's hospital and the refugees

16 convoy from Vukovar, we are informing you that the Croatian side has

17 agreed with your suggestion to receive about -- above-mentioned convoys

18 from the army in the village of Bosanska Raca."

19 Q. And then I think it goes on to refer to that they would be ready

20 for the reception?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It lists wounded inhabitants of Vukovar, and then without going

23 into any great detail, the final paragraph, if I paraphrase it, we're

24 asking for a written guarantee from the JNA for safe and undisturbed

25 movement.

Page 6612

1 And then finally: "Oral agreement for the passage on

2 above-mentioned relation, we have reached during talks with the president

3 of the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the November the 20th at

4 2245."

5 And then there is a reference to the number of wounded and sick,

6 and refugees. Now, clearly it's a little later in time, but, as far as

7 you are concerned, was there any difficulty about the route itself at

8 that time?

9 A. I have only indirect information as a member of EC monitoring

10 mission because I was not in the -- as monitoring those -- those other

11 ways of convoys, so I took part only in two convoys from Vukovar.

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. But there were much more convoys, I believe, five or ...

14 Q. All right. Well, there is no other question that I was to ask you

15 about in relation to tab 21.

16 MR. MOORE: Could I ask, please, for the tab 21 documents to be

17 made an exhibit?

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

20 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit number 316, Your Honours.


22 Q. I'd like to now move on, if I may, to tab 22, and also -- and

23 perhaps more particularly initially, the translation of your -- what I

24 call the Kypr notebook and you've got the copy of it. Again, it should be

25 again, if we look at that document, the typed version, it should be bottom

Page 6613

1 right-hand corner, 7 of 17?

2 A. Yeah. Yes.

3 Q. Now, can we just put our hand on the typed version and also open

4 our file at tab 22? Because tab 22 says: "Humanitarian convoys from

5 Vukovar's hospital, November the 20th and 21st, special report by

6 Mr. Kypr, November the 22nd, 1991."

7 Now, can I just, by way of clarity, before I proceed to produce it

8 in evidence, are you able to say if this is your handwriting or not?

9 A. Yes, it is my handwriting.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I'm told there may be difficulties

12 showing both documents.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It is impossible.

14 MR. MOORE: Well, shall I deal with it this way: I'll deal with

15 one document at a time. I'll just clarify the -- what I will call tab 22

16 to confirm, although I think the witness has confirmed it is his document

17 written by him. I will then moved on to the typed version of the original

18 notes, work from that, and then return to the other document.

19 JUDGE PARKER: The issue is whether the accused have paper

20 versions or are they dependent on the screen.

21 MR. MOORE: They would be reliant upon the screen. But there is

22 the B/C/S translation of the typed version, and there is also a B/C/S

23 translations of tab 22. So we --

24 JUDGE PARKER: That means they have to be brought up in the

25 Croatian -- B/C/S version and not the document you are working on.

Page 6614

1 MR. MOORE: Oh, I -- I understand that perfectly.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

3 MR. MOORE: Well, the document that I am going to be working from,

4 the defendants have got a hard copy of it. As far as I am aware. We

5 provided hard copies to the Defence.

6 JUDGE PARKER: That's true for the notebook.

7 MR. MOORE: Yes.

8 JUDGE PARKER: But not the tabs.

9 MR. MOORE: On the tabs we have to do that by e-court.


11 MR. MOORE: So what I will do -- well, I'll leave that to the end

12 and I'll deal with the hard copy English version/B/C/S version, which I

13 hope will be relatively clear.

14 Q. Can we deal, then, please with your notebook commencing on

15 the 20th of November?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where did you stay the night on the 19th; can you remember?

18 A. In Belgrade.

19 Q. And we have seen timings, clearly, that I think the evacuation was

20 to occur in the early morning of the 20th?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you remember at what time you returned to Vukovar,

23 approximately?

24 A. Approximately before -- before -- before 8.00. Or roughly 8.00.

25 Q. Can we deal, then, please, with your first entry that you have?

Page 6615

1 A. Exactly Vukovar means -- means Negoslavci, because it was the

2 point near Vukovar where we got the -- the first information briefing,

3 let's say.

4 Q. So we have got Negoslavci, N-e-g, I presume?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is that right?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Do feel free to consult your handwritten note, if you're

9 concerned.

10 A. No, it's okay.

11 Q. So Negoslavci, does it is mean Negoslavci or does it mean Vukovar?

12 A. Negoslavci was a village near Vukovar which was used as a point

13 for negotiation.

14 Q. Yes. But I would like to know is were you in Vukovar per se, or

15 outside of Vukovar or Negoslavci? Because, Negoslavci, I think, is about

16 10 kilometres away from Vukovar.

17 A. Yes, yes. So in this early morning briefing in -- in the 20th we

18 were in Negoslavci, according my -- my notebook.

19 Q. Thank you very much. And did you attend a briefing?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And as far as you are aware, who was giving that briefing?

22 A. There is written that it was Colonel Pavkovic, but I don't

23 remember a real person.

24 Q. Thank you very much. And what were you told in the briefing?

25 A. We were told that there are houses near hospital, that they are

Page 6616

1 mined, maybe even some wounded people have explosives, that some streets

2 are still mined.

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. And that the whole organisation is "our" - means JNA

5 jurisdiction - and that gentlemen from ECMM can just monitor but object

6 later.

7 Q. Can you explain to me what you mean "just monitor and object

8 later"? What exactly does that mean or did it mean to you at that time?

9 A. Observe situation and if we are not satisfied with something or if

10 something is not according the -- the agreement, we have to -- or we are

11 able to -- to complain or object only later.

12 Q. Only later. So if you saw something occurring at the time that

13 did not meet with your approval, what were you obliged to do? Complain at

14 the time or afterwards?

15 A. Afterwards.

16 Q. Did you make any objection to that?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. All right. What else was said then, please?

19 A. "The wounded men of paramilitary formations should stay here.

20 That is definitely a solution with General Raseta."

21 Q. You referred to "our" -- "our jurisdiction." What did the "our

22 jurisdiction," "the organisation is our jurisdiction." Who is the "our"?

23 ECMM or JNA?

24 A. No, JNA. Yugoslav People's Army.

25 Q. What is the next entry then, please?

Page 6617

1 A. The next entry speaks about problems which ECMM has to cover.

2 First it is convoy of refugees, and there is a -- let's say sketch how the

3 convoy should be -- should be built from cars, so it means that first will

4 be military police, then car of ECMM, then cars of convoy and --

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. -- so on. And the other problem of ECMM is the evacuation of the

7 hospital.

8 Q. All right. Thank you very much.

9 A. To cover.

10 Q. You've referred to that second part, the evacuation of the

11 hospital, but I just want to move two lines prior to that. The

12 phrase: "The wounded men of paramilitary formations should stay here.

13 That is definitely a solution with General Raseta."

14 Now, "paramilitary formations," who did you understand that to

15 mean?

16 A. In that time I remember that this name was used in -- in a various

17 context. Very various context. Sometimes even -- even Croatian National

18 Guard and MUP were -- were addressed or were named as paramilitary forces.

19 Q. Yes, but we have seen from the evacuation agreement that it

20 related to all wounded.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That's correct?

23 A. Yes, it's correct.

24 Q. And here we have: "The wounded men of paramilitary formations

25 should stay here."

Page 6618

1 So you have one hand the Raseta agreement saying all wounded would

2 be evacuated, and here you've got the JNA, Colonel Pavkovic, if it be him,

3 saying that the wounded men of the paramilitary formations should stay

4 here. Now, did that raise any topic of discussion?

5 A. Yes. You can see on the other page, the next page, there is a

6 response of Colonel Cunningham.

7 Q. Before we get there, what about the entry: "That is definitely a

8 solution with General Raseta."

9 Who said that?

10 A. A representative of JNA. I don't know who, whom it was.

11 Q. Can I just see if I clarify this: What is being said is that the

12 wounded men of the paramilitary formations would stay here and that's

13 definitely a solution with General Raseta.

14 Now, if we turn the page, can we deal with that entry, please?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who does it relate to?

17 A. It was Colonel Cunningham --

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. -- relating to Raseta in Zagreb. He objected that all wounded

20 should be transported, that rules of Geneva Convention will be applied on

21 all prisoners of wars, of all prisoners, and that International Red Cross

22 will provide it a list of all wounded evacuated from hospital and check

23 them in transport.

24 Q. Now, can we just deal then please with that situation. Here we

25 have the Raseta agreement, I have already mentioned it three or four

Page 6619

1 times, you have got the JNA briefing saying, quite simply, that Raseta has

2 said, apparently, that the wounded should remain, and Cunningham saying

3 the rules of the Geneva Convention will be applied on all prisoners of

4 war. Now, when he said that, was there any reply by the JNA? Did they

5 agree or disagree or not comment at all?

6 A. I don't remember. During those discussion, even on the 19th, we

7 repeated this message many times.

8 Q. Well, did it seem to have any effect?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Thank you. And with regard to the "will be applied on all

11 prisoner of wars," not just injured people, all prisoner of wars, there is

12 a distinction, is there not?

13 A. There is a distinction because Cunningham speaks about

14 Geneva Convention, not about Raseta's agreement.

15 Q. Yes. But let -- can I just ask you, please, on all prisoners of

16 war?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It's not a case of all wounded; it's a case of all prisoners of

19 war?

20 A. All prisoners of war.

21 Q. Do you understand the distinction, Ambassador?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Well, what was said in relation to all prisoners of war? Was

24 there any agreement to that?

25 A. I don't remember. It's a standard procedure. Geneva Convention

Page 6620

1 is the part of the highest law at all, I understand.

2 Q. Yes. But forgive me, here you have a situation where the JNA are

3 saying wounded people will be retained, if they're believed to be --

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. -- Croatian defenders. And here would you have Cunningham, your

6 boss, saying that all wounded should be transported, rules of the Geneva

7 Convention will be applied on all prisoners of war. Now, some might say

8 that this is a situation of conflict or disagreement. Can you remember?

9 A. No, I can't remember.

10 Q. Can we then deal, please, with the ICRC, reference to that?

11 A. You mean the next remarks --

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. -- that ICRC should -- will check wounded by list on the beginning

14 and after the transport.

15 Q. Sorry, it's my fault. You did refer to this. ICRC will provide

16 lists of all wounded --

17 A. Yes, sorry.

18 Q. -- evacuated from the hospital and check them in transport. Was

19 there any representative of the ICRC present at this briefing?

20 A. Yes, he was. He was there.

21 Q. And as far as you are aware, was there any disagreement by him to

22 that proposed course, that the ICRC would basically be responsible for

23 the -- for the loading?

24 A. I remember that he was objecting that -- that he was not allowed

25 to go to the hospital in the evening.

Page 6621

1 Q. Can you remember if there was any explanation by the JNA why he

2 was not allowed to go in the evening?

3 A. No, sorry.

4 Q. Let's deal, then, please, with the next page, 0468-7774 in the

5 original English.

6 A. "International Red Cross will check wounded by a list on the

7 beginning and after the transport. International Red Cross has enough

8 people for it."

9 Q. So with regard to the ICRC and that briefing in the morning, what

10 was your understanding? That the ICRC were going to be responsible for

11 the control of the evacuation or not?

12 A. They will -- they will be responsible for the control of hospital

13 if they can get it. And that they will follow the convoy with -- with

14 wounded people and that they will provide the evidence of those wounded

15 people.

16 Q. Again, if there had been any objection by the JNA to the ICRC

17 taking control or indicating that they would control the evacuation, if

18 there had have been an objection, do you think you would have recorded

19 that in your notes?

20 A. I remember that there was a discussion between, but it was

21 afterwards between representative of JNA and -- and ICRC near the bridge.

22 Q. Well, we'll come to the bridge in due course. Let us move on,

23 please, to 8.30.

24 Well, perhaps, actually before I move to 8.30.

25 So when that briefing concluded, the briefing in the early morning

Page 6622

1 and the one we have just been discussing, what was your understanding,

2 what was the role of the ECMM to be?

3 A. The role of ECMM was -- was done by the -- the task which I have

4 mentioned in the tab 31.

5 Q. You mean observe and object later?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. The ICRC, what was its function?

8 A. ICRC should take control on the hospital, keep the -- or taking

9 care about the neutrality of the hospital, provide the list of wounded

10 people, check them and make those humanitarian tasks, which are they are

11 using -- which they are used to do.

12 Q. Thank you. Let us deal then, as I say, with 8.30 in the morning.

13 It's the -- it's the same entry.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. To what does this relate, please?

16 A. "JNA got the message from the zone commander from the zone for

17 exchange of refugees."

18 Q. So, I beg your pardon, could you repeat that again, please. "JNA

19 got the message from the zone commander from the zone for exchange of

20 refugees."

21 A. Yes, it's my explanation of the text.

22 Q. Could you read the text out and then provide an explanation.

23 A. I can read the text.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. "8.30, colonel spoke with the zone commander for exchange."

Page 6623

1 Q. Which commander was that?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Was it a JNA colonel or was it Colonel Cunningham?

4 A. No, it was JNA colonel.

5 Q. And he spoke with the zone commander for the exchange. Which zone

6 commander are we referring to?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Do we know which zone?

9 A. It was zone Nustar-Marinci.

10 Q. And how did you obtain this information?

11 A. We were told it on the briefing.

12 Q. Well, that's 8.30.

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. 8.30 in the morning you were still in the briefing?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. In Negoslavci?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. Thank you. What is the next entry, please?

19 A. "When it comes to JNA road Nustar-Marinci is completely safe."

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. "He has no contact with the opposite side, he did not notice any

22 demining from" -- plus means cross-road or crossing point "in direction of

23 Nustar."

24 Q. When you're referring to "he," are you referring to a JNA colonel?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6624

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. From the spot, from the zone commander.

3 Q. I see. Thank you. Can we then deal with the next entry at 7775?

4 To which does that relate, please?

5 A. I really don't know. It's only the pair of names, which I --

6 Q. Well, are they in your handwriting?

7 A. Yeah, but I think that it's really -- there are no -- I can show

8 it that it has no -- any connection or any referring to other parts. It

9 is an extra page.

10 Q. Yes. But can I just ask you: Is it in your handwriting?

11 A. Yes. Sorry, just a moment, sir. The first one, yes, and the

12 second one, yes, as well.

13 Q. And one seems to say: "Deputy, 1st Military District"; is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So where did you get that information from?

17 A. From somebody from JNA. We are told it was all the time that we

18 were told he and he is that and that.

19 Q. And what about the next name?

20 A. "Colonel Ivezic, head of hospital."

21 Q. And, again, were you informed of that; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can we turn over then to 7776.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now it seems to be a name, Bozo Dzapic?

Page 6625

1 A. Bozo Dzapic, born 1967.

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. And it is written the name and the date of delivery was in my

4 hand, and the rest is written in Latin by Dr. Schou. It's a diagnosis of

5 one of wounded or ill men who had to be left in the hospital in

6 Sremska Mitrovica because he was -- he was not able to move further to

7 Croatia.

8 Q. And I think then there was one other entry relating to Koritnik is

9 that right?

10 A. Koritnik. Doctor of medicine, Zeljko Koritnik. It is written

11 probably by somebody else. It's not my hand. And it was, I believe, one

12 of the doctors from Sremska Mitrovica hospital where the convoy was

13 overnight.

14 Q. Well, let's then move on to the documents, because that concludes

15 your what I call original notes prior to and/or at the same time as the

16 evacuation.

17 But if we go to tab 22, that has to now be shown to the

18 defendants, please in B/C/S. And I'm told it's 03033931 to 3935. Could I

19 be told, please, when it's shown? Is it now showing? Thank you very

20 much.

21 Ambassador, would you be kind enough to turn to this agreement

22 which you have agreed is in your hand. It was compiled on the 22nd and

23 relates to the 20th and 21st of November?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Let's just deal firstly with the time schedule, as you recollect

Page 6626

1 it. ?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The 20th, arrive Negoslavci at 6.45 in the morning?

4 A. 6.45 in the morning.

5 Q. Due to depart to Vukovar 8.45?

6 A. Approximately.

7 Q. Well, yes, certainly. Waiting at Vukovar's centre --

8 A. Until approximately 10.45.

9 Q. And then the loading patients and others until approximately 1430.

10 And then arrival at Negoslavci at 1300.

11 A. 1500.

12 Q. Is it 15? Thank you.

13 A. It is 15.

14 Q. And then departure to Sremska Mitrovica at 1530 and arrival at

15 1700 hours.

16 Can we just deal then with the 20th? Here you've got contact

17 names. Now, the handwriting, as I say, I think is yours. When you have

18 written down Colonel Pavkovic, how have you come to the conclusion that it

19 was Colonel Pavkovic?

20 A. I don't remember. I was told that there is Colonel Pavkovic, and

21 I wrote down this.

22 Q. And the position as you thought it was, you've already got him as

23 commander?

24 A. Yeah, it means deputy commander.

25 Q. I see.

Page 6627

1 A. Of Operation Group South.

2 Q. And you've assigned each person a number?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Again, these -- these names, can you just read them out, please?

5 A. Yeah. Number 2 is Lieutenant-Colonel Ivezic, deputy of number 1

6 for communications. General -- number 3 is General Jerko Crvenic, Deputy

7 Commander of 1st Military District.

8 Q. So the same position as Colonel Pavkovic, that seems to be. Yes?

9 A. Zeljko Koritnik on duty in medicine centre in Sremska Mitrovica.

10 Number 5, Bozo Dzapic, wounded, sent to Belgrade. Number 6, Nicholas

11 Borsinger, representative of ICRC.

12 Q. Now, again, we've already done your notes. So when we have this

13 briefing by one, as you refer to it, is it right, if I take it in short

14 order, that in actual fact this briefing is the same, or has the original

15 Kypr notebook has been used to compile this particular document. Is that

16 right?

17 A. It is, but not only this one, I use the one even remarks of -- of

18 Mr. Cunningham and others' knowledge, because there were more monitors.

19 And it is written on the 22nd when we came back to Belgrade.

20 Q. Can I deal with A, briefing by 1. And I want to deal with the

21 third point, please, starting "the wounded members."

22 Have you got that?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. Could you read that, please?

25 A. "The wounded members of so-called Croatian paramilitary forces

Page 6628

1 must stay here (we have been told later by patients that they have been

2 captured and left the hospital before our arrival). As well as some

3 people of former personnel - Dr. Bosanac."

4 Q. Now I just want to deal with that part of the entry, if I may, the

5 brackets part, which clearly was not in the briefing because it was

6 subsequent to your arrival?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. "We have been told later by patients that they have been captured

9 and left the hospital before our arrival."

10 Now, from your timetable you arrived, or you certainly were

11 waiting in the centre until 10.45. What time do you think you actually

12 got to the Vukovar Hospital at?

13 A. 10 minutes later.

14 Q. Well --

15 A. Around 11.00.

16 Q. All right. So it would appear that -- you that were told this.

17 Now: "They had been captured and left the hospital before our arrival."

18 That's the wounded members of the Croatian paramilitary forces. Even

19 though you have been told that you are not to make any comments,

20 observations until after it was all over, that was the brief that you were

21 given by the JNA, did you at any time approach any member of the JNA and

22 say, Just a moment, we understand from patients that a number of wounded

23 soldiers were -- use the phrase captured and removed before either

24 ourselves or the ICRC arrived?

25 A. Okay. There were -- there were first we asked for the

Page 6629

1 Dr. Bosanac, because she was in Serb press or Serb media represented like

2 Dr. Mengele. So we -- it was our main fear that she can be in a threat.

3 And so we asked where she is, and then we were informed by patients and by

4 some people there, I don't know whom, that she was captured. And then we

5 were told officially that she will be -- she will be put before a court.

6 According those prisoners of war or wounded -- wounded people, we

7 asked through our liaison officer, it was Colonel Cunningham who asked

8 that, that we wish to know what had happened with them and how they are

9 treated and so on, and we got no question -- no answer on that.

10 Q. Let us just deal with -- well, actually just before I move on.

11 When Cunningham asked this question, can you remember when Cunningham

12 asked it? What is it at the hospital?

13 A. Yes, it -- it was somewhere in the hospital because he -- not

14 having the -- the answer, he has to work on that so he went after certain

15 time being in hospital for half an hour, one hour, I don't know for how

16 long because I was very busy, he went for Belgrade to -- to resolve the

17 situation, to work on our other convoys and -- and he got an information

18 with -- with him that there are missing persons [realtime transcript read

19 in error "concerns"].

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, we've reached the time when we must

21 break for the tapes to be changed. Is that a convenient --

22 MR. MOORE: Yes, could I just clarify?

23 Q. I mean this in no discourteous way, because the learned -- the

24 Ambassador speaks so many languages. But at page 43/5, the phrase that

25 was used "to resolve the situation, to work on our other convoys, and he

Page 6630

1 got an information with him," can I just clarify, when you use the

2 phrase, "He got an information with him there are missing" -- I thought he

3 said "persons" not "concerns," got an information, do you mean that he had

4 been informed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you very much. On the -- on the -- on the translation, I've

7 got "there are missing concerns." Is it concerns or persons?

8 A. Persons.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. MOORE: Yes, that would now be a convenient moment. Thank you

11 very much.

12 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume a little after five past 4.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

16 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

17 Q. Can we just deal, please, with -- have you kept the document open

18 or not? It's tab 22.

19 All right. Can we deal, then, please, with the reference. You've

20 told us about -- that the briefing by 1. Can we deal then with the next

21 part? Thank you very much, indeed.

22 A. Yes, point b --

23 Q. I think we hadn't concluded a, had we? "ECMM insisted that all

24 wounded and" --

25 A. "That all wounded and ill people as medical crew should be

Page 6631

1 transported (by the agreement) and that all prisoners of war must be

2 treated by Geneva Convention. ICRC should provide and check the list of

3 all people in hospital and in convoy."

4 Q. Thank you very much. Let's deal with the convoy. We can see

5 clearly the numbers given there. I don't want to deal with that to any

6 great extent.

7 A. Yes, so it's b: "Convoy consists of 10 army ambulances, each for

8 four patients, four coaches, for light patients, light wounded patients,

9 and one ambulance, civil ambulance for a small girl."

10 Q. All right. But I would like to deal with c, if I may, please.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, could we deal with the first part, Vukovar, c, the symbol

13 seems to mean approximately --

14 A. Approximately two hours waiting in a centre.

15 Q. "Demining." Now, I would like you to just deal with this, if I

16 may. Firstly, why do you have, "Demining?"

17 A. Because it was a question, if it was a demining or not.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. We were told that it is demining. We were not monitor observed

20 that, so if I have writing that, I have to stress that I was told that it

21 was demine.

22 Q. All right. Thank you very much. I would like you to look then at

23 a video, which is our 65 ter 315 -- sorry, my apologies, 314. It should

24 start at the time 1731, and I hope, continue to 1934.

25 MR. MOORE: Just to assist the Court, this is the disagreement on

Page 6632

1 the bridge with Nicholas Borsinger and Sljivancanin, and this particular

2 version has got subtitles which will run with it.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, could I just actually ask that we stop,

5 because we clearly haven't got the sound.

6 Can we just clarify to see if there is a technical problem.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, perhaps the best way of dealing with

9 this, if I may suggest, is as follows. The sound normally travels with

10 this CD without any difficulty, I don't know why it's missing. Perhaps if

11 we can play it, the transcript is there anyway, what is actually being

12 said, and then there is another one that I wish to play following that.

13 So it -- I would have thought there is no reason at all why we can't

14 continue.

15 So if we could take it back to the beginning, please?

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 [Videotape played]


19 Q. May I just deal with that video, we're trying to get the sound

20 sorted out, there may be a technical problem.

21 But this is clearly on the bridge on the morning of the 20th?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. Now, is it right that you saw this occurring?

24 A. Yes, I saw it.

25 Q. Now, where were you actually located when you saw this occurring?

Page 6633

1 A. We were located in the beginning of -- of this whole column.

2 It's -- it means we were the fourth or fifth car in the column.

3 MR. MOORE: Now, what I'm going to try and do, we have another

4 video, it's actually the same as this video, but it extends for

5 approximately three or four more seconds, and I'm going to try and pan the

6 video right around, or play the video, so that we can see back down the

7 column. So let us see if we can try and work that. The exhibit number is

8 Exhibit 283. Now can that be played, please, so that it concludes at the

9 end?

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. MOORE: Can we just freeze that for a moment, please?

12 Q. That is the same location, the difference here is the video has

13 continued on round and is looking back down the road, and we can see the

14 door of ICRC vehicle, and then we can see various vehicles lined up behind

15 with a large building on the right. Do you see that?

16 A. Yes, I see.

17 Q. Now, are you able to remember -- clearly the ICRC vehicle is at

18 the bridge, but whereabouts are you located in relation to that? Behind

19 the ICRC vehicle?

20 A. I don't know really. I remember the place where we were staying

21 for a -- for this time, and it's -- it was near this -- it was near this

22 brown building on the right side of the road. On the opposite side there

23 is a Hotel Danube, so I remember the spot.

24 Q. So you were somewhere around there?

25 A. Yeah.

Page 6634

1 Q. All right. Thank you very much, indeed.

2 MR. MOORE: Can we just play this to the end so that we can just

3 finalise the part?

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. MOORE: All right. Thank you very much.

6 Q. Can we just move on? You've told us about two hours waiting in

7 the centre. And then there is the following: "In the totally destroyed

8 town." Can you read that part, please?

9 A. Just a moment. "In the totally destroyed town, -- bands of and

10 Serbian volunteers and Territorial Defence units which were firing and

11 searching usable things in ruins. Some of them were drunk and a lot of

12 aggressive smell of dead bodies, some bodies were visible, some were into

13 ruins."

14 Q. And I think you've got here the reference to the conflict

15 between 1. Now, you've got 1 as Pavkovic?

16 A. No, I remember that it was Major Sljivancanin, and it's a mistake,

17 I can't explain.

18 Q. So when you refer to, if we look at the top of that page that

19 we're looking at, 1402, we can see that there is a briefing by 1. Do you

20 see?

21 A. Yes, I see.

22 Q. And 1, by way of your index, was Pavkovic. So are you able to

23 assist whether, in actual fact, the briefing by 1 was by Sljivancanin or

24 by Pavkovic? Can you remember?

25 A. I don't remember, sir.

Page 6635

1 Q. All right. Thank you very much. The -- who claimed

2 responsibility of the hospital. What is the next reference that you have

3 there?

4 A. "That responsibility was not given to him because JNA demanded

5 from ICRC written agreement about full responsibility for hospital."

6 Q. Well, can I just deal with that entry? The JNA demanded from the

7 ICRC, namely Borsinger, the written agreement about the full

8 responsibility for hospital. You -- you had, did you not, been involved

9 with briefing and discussions about the evacuation and the evacuation

10 document, the Raseta document?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was there any reference to that?

13 A. Just a moment, sir.

14 The two parties, it's in paragraph 7 of Raseta document.

15 Q. Could you be kind enough, please, to tell which tab you are on?

16 A. Yes. I have used the tab 31, but Raseta documents is even in

17 number 20, as I do remember.

18 Q. It is, yes.

19 A. So it's easier to use number 20.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. In paragraph 7, the second sentence: "The two parties will also

22 facilitate the involvement of the ICRC, Medecins sans Frontieres and the

23 Maltese Cross, as appropriate, to allow them to play as much roles as may

24 be decided in supporting and monitoring the evacuation."

25 And paragraph 6 is: "The hospital will be put under the protection

Page 6636

1 of the ICRC who will advise both parties of the period of neutrality which

2 they require."

3 Q. Well, I'll deal with that in due course.

4 Can I deal, before we move over the bridge, when you were in

5 Vukovar, prior to the bridge and after the bridge, could you give the

6 Court a description of the level of damage that existed in Vukovar?

7 A. I went through Vukovar few times before war on my way to the

8 coast-line, and it was a very nice, flourishing town, full of people.

9 When we went there you -- you have heard what -- what I wrote

10 down. There was no one single house which was not damaged at least roof.

11 And what I remember well is a very small moment of the whole tragedy was

12 that there was not one single branch of tree which can be untouched by a

13 piece of shrapnel, so it shows the density of -- of shooting there.

14 Q. I'd like you to look, please, at a sort video clip which was

15 compiled in 1993. It has been disclosed to my learned friends. It's

16 V0006642, it only lasts three minutes, less than that. I wonder, perhaps,

17 if we could see that and see whether in actual fact this corresponds with

18 your recollection?

19 A. Yes.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's what I saw. It's the water-tower in the

22 centre.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE WITNESS: This is the Hotel Danube, and this is Vuka River we

25 were standing.

Page 6637

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. I would, in due course, make

3 application to make that an exhibit. As I say, it was in 1993, I believe:

4 I don't know if my learned friends have any objection to that course.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

6 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit number 317, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, the first of the two videos of the

9 meeting by the hospital, has that an exhibit number yet?

10 MR. MOORE: No. The first one, the silent one with the

11 transcripts, that was a 65 ter, 314 --

12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, you gave that reference.

13 MR. MOORE: Yes. But it does not have an exhibit number as such,

14 and I would certainly make application for that to be an exhibit.

15 Can I just indicate the slight -- it's not a difficulty, just not

16 to complicate things. Exhibit 283 is the same video but extended round to

17 show back down the road, but that doesn't have the transcript, that's the

18 problem.

19 JUDGE PARKER: That's not a complication. It will be received.

20 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video clip will be exhibit

22 number 318.


24 Q. Can we deal, then, please, with the Vukovar Hospital itself?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6638

1 Q. And can you tell us, in very general terms, what you found when

2 you arrived at the hospital?

3 A. In front of the hospital there were some civil ambulances damaged.

4 The entrance to the hospital was to the [indiscernible] or to the

5 [indiscernible], because top or upper part of the hospital was under

6 shelling and it was visible from outside. When we came down to the cellar

7 we saw there if it was possible, because there was no light, light was

8 provided by small bulbs from cars and by some accumulators [sic] from

9 cars. People were lying on corridors and everywhere because there were

10 few hundred, three to 400 people.

11 In the -- in the cellar, cellar was connected with this -- some

12 anti-nuclear or a bomb shelter. There were lying those heavily wounded

13 people in the very centre.

14 Q. Well, can we deal now, please, with the wounded people and their

15 evacuation? So can we deal, then, please, with --

16 A. My colleague and me, my colleague, Dr. Schou and me and Colonel

17 Cunningham in the very beginning we were discussing the -- the question

18 who should be removed first. Then we decided that probably the heavily

19 wounded people should be the first one, because we were not sure that we

20 have enough ambulances. So we decided to move the -- the heavily wounded

21 as fast as possible from those conditions.

22 Q. Now, can we deal, please, with page number 1403 in the handwritten

23 copy?

24 A. Yes. There is mentioned: "Bad organisation of loading patients

25 to convoy."

Page 6639

1 Q. Now, can we just deal, whose job, whose responsibility was it to

2 load patients?

3 A. According the agreement and the discussion before, we were told

4 that JNA will -- will provide us with -- with personnel and with -- with

5 ambulances and other support, and it is in agreement, I believe, as well.

6 Q. And can you just give a general description of how you saw the

7 care or lack of care that was being used for the evacuation of patients?

8 A. There were many people moving in -- in the -- the entrance of

9 the -- to the hospital, so it was really difficult to go out, and then the

10 problem with -- was that there was no one, or at least I couldn't see

11 anybody who is the chief of -- of commanding this -- this evacuation. So

12 sometimes I have to go for the driver of ambulance and said him, please,

13 go to the entrance because we are waiting for another ambulance.

14 Q. Did you at any time personally attempt to assist in the loading?

15 A. Yes. Yes, once I saw that one of those people who were carrying

16 the stretchers was not strong enough and was tired probably, so I -- and

17 the -- the patient could fell down, so I have -- I had help him in that

18 case and move the -- the stretcher to the bus. I believe that it was to

19 the bus, because some light wounded people, we were moving them to -- to

20 buses.

21 Q. And did that have any reaction from anyone?

22 A. Yes. There was a reaction from one -- one man who was standing

23 there, and he accused me that I am not impartial because I am helping

24 the -- the Croatian side.

25 Q. You've told us about the ICRC representatives having an argument,

Page 6640

1 and the ICRC, as far as you understood it, by way of the agreement, having

2 the neutrality of the hospital was to be respected and the ICRC to be

3 responsible. Is that right, in general terms, or not?

4 A. Yes, it -- that -- this was written in -- in the information we

5 got from Zagreb.

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. And it was written in the agreement of -- of Admiral -- of General

8 Raseta.

9 Q. I would like you, please, to look at a video, 65 ter number 324.

10 It is a video that -- clip that lasts four minutes. And it is of the ICRC

11 representative at the hospital.

12 MR. MOORE: Could that be played? And there should also be a

13 transcript to read just down below. And hopefully the sound will come

14 through.

15 Your Honour, again, there seems to be some problem with the audio.

16 JUDGE PARKER: A technician will be here shortly.

17 MR. MOORE: Well, may I just wait for the technician to arrive?

18 Thank you very much.

19 Your Honour, perhaps the best thing do is just to play it. There

20 is a transcription down below, and we can play it a second time, if needs

21 be, rather than waste time. Does that meet with the Court's agreement?

22 Thank you.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. MOORE: I would like it to be heard, if possible. But the

25 technician will see how long that will take.

Page 6641

1 Well, we now have sound. I wonder if the Court would object to me

2 playing it again with the sound. It's in English. Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Please proceed.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. MOORE: Can I make an application for that video and

6 accompanying transcript to be made an exhibit, please?

7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 319.


10 Q. Now, some of the phrases used there were that Nicholas Borsinger

11 said that he was completely -- the ICRC were completely unable to carry

12 out their task and that they had been prevented from entering the

13 hospital. Were you aware at that time of the ICRC being restricted in

14 their role in carrying out the evacuation?

15 A. Yes, we know that they were not there. It was the only thing that

16 I can remember, but -- I can't say. I can't say more, I can't remember

17 more. I cannot remember.

18 Q. Well, just thinking a little harder, perhaps, in relation to the

19 hospital, were you able to get into the hospital?

20 A. Yes. We were allowed to go there.

21 Q. And --

22 A. We were free to move there.

23 Q. And --

24 A. In the neighbourhood.

25 Q. But within the hospital itself what did -- what function did you,

Page 6642

1 the ECMM, actually perform?

2 A. We monitored the situation there, cease-fire existing, once we

3 stopped the violation of neutrality of the hospital, because I was near

4 the entrance and I have heard from the entrance some arguments, so I run

5 down, and there was one volunteer with weapon, so I asked -- I don't know

6 if it was liaison officer or some other officer, and they removed him

7 away.

8 Q. Now, in -- in the document that we have in front of us, the

9 handwritten document, the second line says: "No visible action by the

10 ICRC." And we clearly have seen that the video now. But it

11 says: "Except arguments 6," clearly Borsinger, "with military

12 representative."

13 Is representative singular or representatives plural?

14 A. I can't remember.

15 Q. And how would you describe Nicholas Borsinger's approach and

16 attitude at that time, his demeanour?

17 A. He was -- he was really unable to fulfill his task, because he --

18 as I have heard the -- the day before in the 19th, they were discussing

19 that they will come - "they" means ICRC - will come in the evening to the

20 hospital and that they will provide a list of patients and they did --

21 they will decide who has to be moved first and so on.

22 So I was really surprised when I saw him in -- in our convoy when

23 we were moving from -- from Negoslavci to -- to the -- to downtown, and

24 then when we were in the hospital and we haven't got our list, and we have

25 no contact with him, we have to do our best without him, because there

Page 6643

1 were patients in the very dramatic situation, so ...

2 Q. And Borsinger himself, how would you describe his -- his demeanour

3 at that time? Do you understand what I mean by the word "demeanour?"

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. His attitude toward the JNA?

6 A. Yeah. I think that we can see that on -- on the first footage,

7 that he was not aggressive, but he was really trying to get an approach to

8 the hospital and he was doing his job.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. He was trying to do his job.

11 Q. Yes. And how would you describe the level of control of the JNA

12 at the Vukovar Hospital? Or indeed prior to the Vukovar Hospital?

13 A. Full.

14 Q. And when you say "full," can you be a little more expansive?

15 A. They were there with weaponry, with armoured carrier vehicles.

16 High-rank officers were there. So it -- it was -- I think it was

17 sovereign on the territory.

18 Q. It was on the territory, sorry?

19 A. Sovereign.

20 Q. Sovereign. Thank you very much. Can I ask you then about another

21 entry. It's about six lines down. "Some patients asked me about ..."

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can we deal with that, please?

24 A. "Some patients asked me about the destiny of popular lady doctor

25 Bosanac. I asked somebody from JNA not -- not liaison officer, neither

Page 6644

1 some official person, and I was told non-official answer, 'she is

2 Ustasha.'"

3 But later we got the -- the official statement, I believe, that

4 she was captured and she will be treated like war criminal.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Now, can I just deal with the next line,

6 it's ECTMS message?

7 A. No cease-fire on -- ECTMS means that it's a message coming from EC

8 monitoring teams from the front line or crossing point. That: "There is

9 no cease-fire on the front line and crossing points in Zidine since 1000

10 hours until 1500. After that, JNA decided to send convoy to

11 Sremska Mitrovica for overnight care."

12 Q. Thank you very much. And then I think it's right to say that

13 eventually there was an evacuation, is that right, that day? Or not?

14 A. I -- can you repeat or reformulate the question.

15 Q. Yes, of course. I'm looking at f, and it says: "Decided to send

16 convoy to Sremska Mitrovica for overnight care." And then the next entry

17 is the SM barracks.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And of course you have in the first page of your entry arrival at

20 the Sremska Mitrovica barracks at 5.00 in the afternoon?

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. Having loaded the patients and others until 2.30?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So that's -- that's what I'm working on.

25 A. Yeah, okay. So we went -- because there was no cease-fire on the

Page 6645

1 crossing point, and we had that convoy with -- with those wounded people

2 in a very bad condition, so JNA decided to -- to move convoy to

3 Sremska Mitrovica barracks, where in the garrison there is even a small

4 hospital.

5 Q. Let me ask you this question: You had been warned, apparently, at

6 a briefing that if there are any soldiers, defenders on your convoy, the

7 JNA couldn't guarantee your security?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And they might get killed and you might get killed?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. Now, here you have a convoy, and presumably there were some men on

12 that convoy; is that right?

13 A. Yeah, wounded men.

14 Q. And how did you know whether any of those men, or indeed women,

15 because it doesn't have to be a man, were not defenders of Vukovar and

16 therefore putting your convoy at risk?

17 A. I didn't care. They were wounded people.

18 Q. So when you say you didn't care, you didn't care about what?

19 A. About the danger. It was a responsibility of JNA, and so there

20 was no question on security. It's a question of humanity. So we cannot

21 go back to the hospital to those conditions.

22 Q. And so if in actual fact there had been a number of defenders on

23 that convoy, would you still have taken that convoy out to

24 Sremska Mitrovica?

25 A. It's a question of -- of what -- what was better. And we -- we

Page 6646

1 cannot change the -- the situation that was not -- there was no other or

2 better possibility.

3 Q. All right. Thank you very much. I don't want to deal, really,

4 with the rest of this particular entry.

5 Perhaps if I -- in fairness, I think it's right to say that

6 under g there's reference to: "Very good medical care provided at Sremska

7 Mitrovica."

8 Is that right?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. But prior to Sremska Mitrovica, what was the medical care like on

11 the convoy?

12 A. I have no evidence on that.

13 Q. All right. Thank you very much.

14 A. We -- we took care about the convoy before -- before departure,

15 only I was few times going there to see if ambulances or around ambulances

16 is everything okay, if there are not crowds of people and so on. So it

17 was okay. I know that Dr. Schou went to those ambulances as well to check

18 people, and we were only two there and there were many hundred people,

19 so ...

20 Q. We've got Dr. Schou coming next, so we can hear from him.

21 Can we move to page 1404? And its comments, please.

22 A. Comments, yes. "ECMM has no effective possibility of

23 communications, what's dangerous. November 21st, we haven't any possible

24 of contact with Belgrade or Zagreb."

25 Q. And number 2, please?

Page 6647

1 A. Number 2: "Vukovar was destroyed by concentrated attack of all

2 army means (artillery, air force, Danube - navy)," and so on.

3 Q. Yes?

4 A. "The first line was provided mostly by Serbian volunteers and

5 reservists. Destroying of Serbian villages in neighbourhood isn't

6 compatible -- comparable, sorry. They totally destroyed Vukovar. Croat

7 forces in Vukovar were probably much less than attackers."

8 Q. And then I think there's two other reference that relates to the

9 level of preparation?

10 A. Yeah, we were afraiding in the time that -- that the next town

11 could have the same destiny, so there is an advice in number 3: "The next

12 case of conquered town, probably Osijek, should be prepared for better

13 care of civilian and wounded people in time."

14 And 4: "It is necessary to manage some safety corridors for

15 crossing front line (for refugees, wounded, prisoners of war, ECMM ... may

16 be with permanent presence of ECMM."

17 Q. And so if I can leave it this way: With regard to the mandate

18 that you had, namely you were to observe --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- but only complain at the end --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- is that what you did?

23 A. We asked for the destiny of people who were -- who were removed

24 before our arrival there, for instance, immediately on the spot.

25 Q. And were you told that destiny or destination?

Page 6648

1 A. Not concerning some of those people. Only -- only concerning

2 Dr. Bosanac and some other from the top of the hospital.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to move on to paragraph --

4 MR. MOORE: May I make application for that to be made -- that

5 document to be made an exhibit?

6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

7 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

8 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 320, Your Honours.


10 Q. And then may I briefly go to divider 25? At divider 25 appears to

11 be a Vukovar relief mission, and that is ERN number 00381417 through

12 to 1424. And the B/C/S is 03040385, 0304 through to 0391.

13 I would like you just to look at this document, please. I don't

14 wish to go into any considerable detail, but I would like to deal with one

15 or two aspects of it.

16 The first question is this: Who compiled this document?

17 A. This document is -- is made by the centre in Zagreb. I believe

18 so, because there are mentioned even other teams which were not -- which

19 were not under our responsibility from Belgrade, and you can see that it

20 came to -- to Belgrade by fax. So the source is -- is probably somewhere

21 else than in Belgrade. And if it is, then it has to be Zagreb.

22 Headquarters of EC monitoring commission in Zagreb precisely.

23 Q. Now, in respect of this document I just want to deal with

24 number 5. We have already dealt with 2, which is the agreement, I'm not

25 going to repeat that. But can we deal with paragraph 5. Have you got

Page 6649

1 that?

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. Reading, commencing "as it transpired"?

4 A. "As it transpired, the convoy did not succeed on its first attempt

5 following the failure of proposed cease-fire. Consequently the

6 tripartheid meeting on the 20th agreed a new route from Sremska Mitrovica

7 to Bosanski Samac and on to Djakovo through the following villages:

8 Bijeljina, Brcko, Orasje."

9 Q. And do you know, not even from your personal knowledge but do you

10 know from others, why it was it didn't succeed on the original route or

11 not?

12 A. We were told that there is no cease-fire on the front line. I

13 don't remember because I was not there, and I had another problems in that

14 time.

15 Q. Can we deal, then, with the next page, 1418.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And I want to deal, please, with 7 a (v)?

18 A. "Much to the surprise"?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. "Much to the surprise of the teams the handover was conducted at

21 Dvorovi, a town 20 kilometres southwest of the transfer point."

22 Q. And I think it's right to say it was describing a Serbian village,

23 ugly scenes developing at the transfer --

24 A. I was waiting for translation. "Sick and wounded people took

25 place. The teams witnessed aggressive chanting and violence towards

Page 6650

1 drivers, medical staff and patients. The team decided in the

2 circumstances to move the convoy as quickly as possible. As a result of

3 the violence, one doctor and driver were badly beaten with buses and other

4 vehicles damaged. See photograph in annex D."

5 Q. Thank you. And then can we turn over to page 1419. It is b (i).

6 A. "On the 20th November" --

7 Q. Before we -- I don't think it's necessary to go that, although

8 there is reference to whilst mines were cleared. But I think it's right

9 to say you didn't know if mines were cleared; is that right?

10 A. No, we were told. It's all the time the same.

11 Q. I want to start halfway down the page: "On arrival at the

12 hospital."

13 Do you see that?

14 A. Yes, I see that. "On arrival at the hospital, they found that JNA

15 were in control and the International Red Cross, ICRC, are not been

16 permitted entry to the hospital to begin the registration of sick and

17 wounded. The hospital was described as overcrowded, some 300, 400

18 patients. It had been without water, electricity, medical supplies and

19 food for two months."

20 Q. Thank you. Roman numeral (ii), can we deal with that, please?

21 A. "Loading the sick, wounded and staff took until 1430 hours and was

22 described as disorganised and chaotic, with no visible action by the ICRC

23 apart from arguments with the military representatives. The majority of

24 Croatian personnel did not wish to become involved in the loading of

25 patients."

Page 6651

1 Q. Thank you. Now -- and then finally, because it is something I'm

2 sure that the Court will wish to deal with, 1422, I'd like to deal with

3 observations, e. Now, this document, is it a compilation of various


5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And --

7 A. It is.

8 Q. And when was this document compiled? Are you able to say?

9 A. It was compiled -- I am not able to say when. I'm trying to read

10 the date from fax because it can be the --

11 Q. Well, I think the fax just seems to be 12th, 1991 --

12 A. The 12th, so it's -- it's --

13 Q. But that's the date of the fax, isn't it?

14 A. It is the date of the fax, so I don't know when it was done.

15 Q. So if we deal with e: "The ICRC must honour their role in

16 accordance with any agreement, for humanitarian convoys and not become

17 agitated and aggressive at the first sign of trouble."

18 Now, in relation to that particular entry, as far as you are

19 aware, was that particular clause generated because of the arguments

20 with -- that Borsinger had with the JNA soldiers or not?

21 A. I believe so, because --

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. -- from the outside it looks like aggressive, but if you follow

24 the text, the context, it's not.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 6652

1 MR. MOORE: I would seek to put this document in as an exhibit,

2 please.

3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

4 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

5 THE REGISTRAR: With exhibit number 321, Your Honours.

6 MR. MOORE: I would like to move, then, to document -- sorry,

7 tab 26, and it is only one part of the document that I would wish to put

8 before the Court. 26 is an English translation -- sorry, the English

9 version is 00381425, ending in 1427, and the B/C/S is 03040115 through

10 to 118. The part that I would seek to refer to, just by way of

11 introduction, we have got the monitoring activity of the 20th of November.

12 Q. Have you got that?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Now, in relation to this document, where -- what is the source of

15 this document, please?

16 A. It's an ECMM headquarters in Zagreb. It's a daily summary.

17 Q. Thank you. So it's a daily summary. And if we look top left-hand

18 corner, can we see the date?

19 A. The date is the 21st of November, 1991.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Now, I'd like you then to turn over, please,

21 to page 1426. And I only want to deal with paragraph 11.

22 A. "Vukovar, whilst the teams were travelling from Belgrade to

23 Vukovar, it was understood that the International Red Cross were in

24 discussions with the new management of the hospital, i.e." --

25 Q. "i.e., the JNA."

Page 6653

1 A. "i.e., the JNA. However, when the team arrived in Vukovar, they

2 found that the JNA were running the operation. The International Red

3 Cross has been ejected from the hospital at 2000 on the 19th of November.

4 After receiving instructions from General Raseta, the registration process

5 began, and the sick and wounded people were loaded into buses and

6 ambulances."

7 Q. Now, I just want to deal with -- here is the 19th, 2000 hours,

8 8.00 in the evening, and it's while the teams were travelling from

9 Belgrade to Vukovar. Where did this information come that the ICRC had

10 been actually been ejected at 8.00 on the Friday evening -- not the Friday

11 evening, on the 19th of November?

12 A. I don't know. I don't know. It's what we have heard during --

13 during negotiation in Negoslavci, we have heard that ICRC wish is to -- to

14 go there in the evening and to make their task, but I don't know from

15 where the -- the information comes.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I would seek to make that document an

18 exhibit, tab 26, but really in relation to paragraph 11, if it's possible

19 to make a mark for that.

20 JUDGE PARKER: The whole document will be received.

21 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 322, Your Honours.

23 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour forgive me one moment, please?

24 With regard to tab 29, that's already been made an exhibit, I

25 believe. Taken out of sequence. I wonder perhaps if that could just be

Page 6654

1 clarified. No, that hasn't. So I will just deal with it, if I may.

2 Again it's part of it.

3 Q. Tab 29, please. The document that I wish to deal with, part of it

4 anyway, is the English translation is 00381433 through to 1436, with the

5 B/C/S translation of the first two pages as 03033620 to 25, and then the

6 English translation of 1436, the B/C/S translation there is 03029145.

7 Now, can I deal, please, with the English, what appears to be the

8 message form? Firstly the date appears to be the 21st of November; is

9 that right?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. And the time?

12 A. The time is 1 hour 23 minutes a.m., it means in the -- after

13 midnight.

14 Q. Thank you. And we can see it's actually on the top right-hand

15 corner as well in the priority mark on it, to Split and Sarajevo. Is that

16 right?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. And the top being the evacuation of the wounded and refugees from

19 Vukovar.

20 Can I just deal, then, please, with the next page, which is 1434.

21 It's number 4.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It appear to say liaison officer Belgrade, or office Belgrade.

24 Can you read what is said?

25 A. With my eyes it's really difficult.

Page 6655

1 Q. Well, I will try, and if I'm wrong my learned friends will correct

2 me.

3 "Please" -- something -- "of 60 wounded remaining in Vukovar

4 Hospital. Also what has become of the staff. Are the ICRC involved?"

5 Do you know what happened to the remaining wounded or not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what happened to the staff?

8 A. Yes, I know what -- what happened to the wounded people, because

9 when we went to Sremska Mitrovica hospital we were working there,

10 Dr. Schou with patients there, and I was taking care about the rest of

11 convoy, because part of convoy was situated in the sporting hall in the --

12 in the centre of the city, and the rest of convoy were -- were people who

13 were sitting and sleeping in those buses there. So I have to go in each

14 room in the hospital or to buses or to the hall to explain to them what is

15 the reason why we have to -- had to move to Sremska Mitrovica hospital,

16 why we are not on the crossing point, and so on. So we took care about

17 them.

18 Then I -- then Dr. Schou and me, we were sleeping there overnight,

19 and in the early morning we went back to Vukovar to pick up the rest of

20 wounded people, because --

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. -- in the 20th we were not able to remove all -- or to evacuate

23 all those -- all those people because there were no enough -- enough means

24 for transport.

25 Q. You've told us that when you arrived on the 20th you had been told

Page 6656

1 by patients that there had been a group of people taken away before you

2 arrived?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. When you went back on the 21st, were you ever told where that

5 group of people were taken?

6 A. I don't remember. I don't remember in that very day the -- the

7 situation in hospital was -- was very quiet, organised, so I believe that

8 there was an interest to -- to evacuate those patients as soon as

9 possible. What we did as a mission, we informed our -- our central in

10 Zagreb, and then Zagreb has informed countries of European community and

11 some other countries and they were trying, through international means, to

12 release those people. I remember that there -- that in one such --

13 Q. Well, perhaps we can leave it there and if there is to be any

14 cross-examination about it, it can be done.

15 But as far as you are aware, it was passed on, concerns were

16 passed on to international organisations?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right. Can I deal, then, please, with one -- I think it

19 should be the final document; I'm sure people would be glad to hear. It's

20 tab 34. Now, can we deal with tab 34, please? It relates to a discussion

21 with Dr. Vesna Bosanac.

22 A. Yes. It's -- it's a review of -- of the visit, because Belgrade

23 centre was allowed to -- to visit her in the prison.

24 Q. Now, I just -- I'm not going to go through it all. But I want to

25 deal, please, with the second page, and I'm sorry, I should have called

Page 6657

1 out the details. 34 -- yes, it's ERN, English version, it's 00381406

2 through to 1409 as per the index. And the B/C/S is 03022809 through

3 to 2812.

4 Can we just deal then, please, in the English version with 1408?

5 So it's the second page. My apologies, 10 -- sorry, 1407. So have we

6 got 10 --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. 1407?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like you to go approximately two-fifths

11 of the way down the page.

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. "Told by EC on November the 19th." Have you got that entry?

14 A. Yes, I see.

15 Q. "Told EC on November the 19th convoy would be organised to

16 evacuate hospital to Zagreb. No convoy on the 19th."

17 Now, do you know or had you any dealings with any conversation

18 that she had, the doctor had, with the EC about a potential convoy on

19 the 19th? If you have no personal knowledge, please say so.

20 A. No. It was -- it was my communication to her, through mobile

21 phone. And I do have some probably some remarks in my notebook, if I can

22 use it. Just a moment, please.

23 Yes, it is the 18th of November.

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. 1215 hours.

Page 6658

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. It is written in Czech, and probably there is some excellent

3 English translation.

4 MR. MOORE: Well, to assist the Court, it's at 0468-7761. The

5 translation version is 1 of 17, the bottom of that.

6 A. Yeah. So Dr. Bosanac said: "It was signed at the talks that ECMM

7 would visit Vukovar Hospital by noon. I am asking you" -- she repeated it

8 three times -- "to come as soon as possible. Situation in the hospital is

9 dramatic. Red Cross couldn't come because they are shooting from the left

10 bank."

11 "They" means JNA.

12 Q. All right. Again, if we just drop two lines down from that entry

13 of divider 34, divider 34, not your hand one.

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. You've got your hand on it, left hand. That's it.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. So there is a cross actually at the document. I don't know

18 why.

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. You don't know either, all right. "Command of JNA" --

21 A. "Came without ICRC."

22 Q. Now, again, the ICRC were supposed to be in charge of this

23 evacuation and have the hospital isolated with the JNA not having access.

24 Did you ask her about that or not? If you can't remember, do say so.

25 A. I can't remember.

Page 6659

1 Q. All right.

2 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour forgive me one moment, please?

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, number 34, divider 34, in the back of my

5 memory, it's so long ago now, four or five months ago, I thought had been

6 put to Dr. Bosanac, but if it has not, and has not been made an exhibit, I

7 would seek to make divider 34 an exhibit, please.

8 JUDGE PARKER: I can't answer your implied question, whether in a

9 different form it was put. Certainly not as tab 34 of this bundle.

10 MR. MOORE: No.

11 JUDGE PARKER: But before we deal with that, you did mean to

12 tender tab 29?

13 MR. MOORE: No. I was not -- if my memory serves me correctly, I

14 merely wanted to inquire about what had happened to the wounded of people

15 on the 21st, but it just gave a completeness.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. Tab 34 will be received.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 323, Your Honours.

18 MR. MOORE: Yes. And that concludes the examination-in-chief of

19 this witness.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

21 Clearly this is a very convenient time for a break, resuming at 10

22 minutes to 6.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Please, if you are ready, please continue,

Page 6660

1 Mr. Vasic.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Thank

3 you very much. Good afternoon to all.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Kypr. First of all, I would

6 like to introduce myself. My name is Miroslav Vasic, attorney-at-law. I

7 am counsel for Mr. Mrksic. You understand the language I speak. That is

8 at least my understanding, based on your testimony. I would still like to

9 ask you to make a pause after each of my questions to allow for an

10 accurate interpretation. After that please answer the question so that

11 everybody can follow.

12 Thank you very much, sir. You testified in chief about the role

13 of the ECMM an organisation you belonged to in the autumn of 1991. You

14 were on a mission there, and you made certain observations. Did you

15 discuss this in 1996 with the OTP investigator, Vladimir Dzuro?

16 A. I don't remember. I -- if I may, I can go through my witness

17 statement and I can find it there, if there is some observation. But if

18 you ask me, I can tell you generally we were powerless. It was my

19 observation about the mission.

20 Q. Thank you. In actual fact, my question was more of a technical

21 issue, whether you spoke to Mr. Dzuro, the ICTY investigator. I would

22 like to know whether you spoke to anybody at the OTP back in 1996 and

23 whether following any interviews a statement was drawn up that you signed

24 in the presence of Mr. Dzuro. It's a technical detail that I would like

25 to know about, if you remember.

Page 6661

1 A. [Interpretation] Yes, I do remember. [In English] I do remember

2 that. And it was written down in Czech version, which I do have. And it

3 was translated to -- into English and I do believe to B/C/S as well. I

4 found there some mistakes in translation. But yes, I did it, and it

5 exists.

6 Q. Thank you very much. That's all I wanted to know for the time

7 being.

8 After giving this statement in 1998, on the 10th of February more

9 specifically, you were summoned to give evidence before this Tribunal at a

10 different trial related to Vukovar. This was the Dokmanovic case. Do you

11 remember that, sir?

12 A. Yes, I do remember.

13 Q. Thank you. When you spoke to Mr. Dzuro you handed over a number

14 of copies of ECMM reports that were in your possession?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Thank you. In the course of those interviews you learned that

17 documents that were supposed to be at the -- kept at the regional centre

18 of the ECMM based in Belgrade were no longer there, or at least were not

19 available, or even that those documents had been destroyed, as well as the

20 documents kept at the ECMM headquarters in Zagreb. Am I right in claiming

21 that, sir?

22 A. I remember that I told to Mr. Dzuro that they can find those

23 documents in files in Zagreb or in regional centre Belgrade, and I was

24 told that there are only few, or I don't remember, so I was asked by

25 Mr. Dzuro to provide him those documents I possess.

Page 6662

1 Q. Thank you very much. That was my understanding too. In your

2 statement you spoke about how you had obtained those copies and where

3 those copies or documents had been kept before you got hold of them. What

4 I want to know is whether Mr. Dzuro also managed to obtain some of these

5 documents on that occasion, or are all the documents that we have in this

6 binder in front of you documents that you obtained?

7 A. If I may go through, I saw there for instance, at least I remember

8 one, and it is the copy of this Bapska ultimatum, as I do remember, or

9 some of written hands document which came by fax, and I believe that it is

10 not my copy. You can see that there is no my signature. It's in tab

11 number 6. So it -- it is from another source, but maybe there are some

12 others which are not coming from -- from mine -- from my statement.

13 Q. Would you be so kind, sir, as to go through the binder and look at

14 the documents? If could you please specify which are the ones that you

15 obtained and which are the ones that were obtained from other sources, if

16 that's not a problem, sir?

17 A. Okay, sir.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. So tab number 1, it is a part of my testimony -- not testimony,

20 but witness statement, I believe. Yes, it is. 2 is as well as. 4 -- 3

21 is the organigramme of Belgrade centre, as well as it comes from my file.

22 4 is mine. 5 is mine. 6 is as well as from my file. I'm looking only on

23 the first page, so maybe there are some other, but -- but the first page I

24 confirm. I will go through the whole -- through the whole tab, if you

25 wish. I will check each page of the document.

Page 6663

1 Q. Thank you. Please check specific documents such as annexes, such

2 as this Bapska ultimatum, which is attached to the document that you say

3 you obtained. This is tab 6, sir.

4 A. Yes, it is. It is tab 6. And there is one copy of -- of -- which

5 comes from my documentation, and there is the other copy with the number

6 6919 at the end, and it is -- it comes from Industrogradnja Zabgreb fax,

7 so it is -- it was from October the 15th, so it was sent from the

8 headquarters of ECMM mission.

9 Q. Thank you. What about this handwritten document signed as -- on

10 behalf of the JNA to the residents of Bapska? Is this something you

11 obtained or did the OTP get this document from a different source? This

12 is page 00381359 at tab 6. It should be just after that map.

13 A. Yes. Sir, if I am looking at the -- this file, so the -- the

14 first page says that with numbers 1353, that this is the report of team 7,

15 Simons, Rodrigues, Martinez, from the 8th of October. And it says in the

16 report that they got some -- some paper which is -- sorry, I have to go

17 through to quote it in detail, if you wish.

18 Yes, there on the page 1354, paragraph 3, the end of

19 paragraph: "See annex C for example of an ultimatum."

20 And you can see that there is annex C written. Originally it

21 was A, and it was re -- it was fixed to C. So it is not my hand. I hope.

22 Q. Thank you. If it was you who obtained the team 7 report, what I

23 want to know is this: Did it have annex C attached to it or not, or did

24 annex C come from elsewhere? That's what I want to know. Was this

25 obtained by you or by someone else? If you can remember, sir.

Page 6664

1 A. I can't remember, and I made those copies as the files were, so if

2 it is falsified, but I doubt, because it was in the -- in the

3 documentation of -- of ECMM, so it's -- I can't see reason.

4 Q. Thank you. We can move on to tab 7, sir.

5 A. Yes. It's from my file.

6 Q. Thank you. The next one, please, tab 8.

7 A. Yes. Tab 8 is -- yes, it is from my statement, witness statement.

8 Q. Thank you. Next one, please, tab 9.

9 A. Yes, it is from my file.

10 Q. Thank you. Tab 10, please.

11 A. Yes, it is from my file. If I see this -- those signatures on the

12 paper it's visible that it is a part of this, if you can see those

13 originals, so it's visible on the original, there is my signature and

14 characters K-y, and in the case of tab 10 it is I-8. So it is symbol that

15 it was a part of my witness statement.

16 Q. Just in order to make this shorter, did I get this right: All the

17 documents that were marked with a Y and a V or an L are documents that you

18 obtained yourself? Am I right in that, sir, or am I wrong?

19 A. It's a question, what do you mean obtained? I process this as

20 copies, not -- I was not a member of those teams, let's say, or I was not

21 in -- in each case I am not the author of that, to be precise.

22 Q. I understand that, sir. I never said. But at one point when you

23 gave that interview there was no documentation, you obtained some copies,

24 some from your own files, some from the Czech foreign office files, and

25 you said that some of the documents were actually obtained by the OTP

Page 6665

1 investigator.

2 What I want to know is: In view of the source of all these

3 documents, which ones did you obtain and which ones came from other

4 sources? That's why I'm asking you, the documents bearing your initials,

5 are these documents which you personally obtained copies from a variety of

6 sources just to save us going through all these documents. Is my

7 understanding correct, sir?

8 A. No, it's not true. Correct is that all those documents which are

9 presented there with those signatures and -- and symbols, Ky-I, are copies

10 I obtained in EC Monitoring Mission, Belgrade centre, or in -- in Zagreb

11 centre. So it is -- there is no any other source, neither Czech Ministry

12 of Foreign Affairs, and I have never said it. Neither Mr. Dzuro. If

13 there is another resource, please put your question to the Prosecutor,

14 because they provided the copy to the file only to show that there is

15 another source for the same document.

16 Q. Thank you. It is much clearer now. You obtained copies of these

17 documents. Thank you.

18 Since the 1996 interview, do you know if any of the documents from

19 the Belgrade headquarters and the Zagreb headquarters that were missing at

20 the time have been found, the documents that were missing when the OTP

21 were trying to track these documents down? Do you know anything about

22 whether these documents have been found in the meantime?

23 A. No, sir. I was not in a contact with EC monitoring commission in

24 Zagreb or in Belgrade since I left the -- the mission at the end of the --

25 December of 1991.

Page 6666

1 Q. Thank you. As a member of the mission do you perhaps have an

2 opinion on this: How was it possible for some of the documents belonging

3 to one of the regional headquarters of the ECMM to simply go missing, to

4 disappear? Were you familiar with the rules for keeping these documents

5 and filing them?

6 A. In the regional centre Belgrade they were in a box, which was

7 opened. And everybody from -- of each of monitors can go there, read

8 reports which was sometimes necessary to -- to review the situation

9 before, and so on. So everybody can go there to see it. So -- but I

10 don't want speculate about how those things were stolen or destroyed. I

11 don't know.

12 Q. Thank you. What about the lack of any original documents? Was

13 that perhaps the reason that you placed your initials on each and every

14 copy, as we can see? Just in order to show that the copy was faithful to

15 the original, which at one time or another existed, and that you knew of?

16 A. As I am aware of, I was asked by Mr. Dzuro to make a signature on

17 each document I am providing to -- as part of this witness statement. So

18 I made my signatures on everything only to fulfill the -- the obligation.

19 I was told that it is an obligation.

20 Q. By putting your signature there, did you mean to confirm the

21 accuracy of these documents? Was that what you meant in actual fact by

22 putting your signature there; namely, that these were documents from the

23 ECMM archive as well as documents that you personally were familiar with?

24 A. I confirmed that those documents I obtained, I copied, in ECMM

25 archives. I cannot say that everything in those documents I can confirm

Page 6667

1 with my signature, but the copies were in the -- were kept in such a

2 manner that they cannot be, I don't know, replaced or something like that,

3 so ...

4 Q. Thank you, sir. The documents that were produced by other teams

5 working for the regional headquarters in Belgrade, had you ever seen any

6 of those before you got copies of them in 1996 or was this the first time

7 you saw them? Did you have an overview of any reports produced by other

8 teams of which you were not a member?

9 A. It was my duty to read about the work of -- of my colleagues, to

10 get an -- to get an information in appropriate -- it was a security

11 measure because I have to know how things are going. So we were reading

12 that. Usually we were reading that when we were going to the place where

13 other team had been before, so we have to read their reports and so on.

14 So it was usual that we have to be aware of the situation there.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that the ECMM regional headquarters was

16 set up sometime in September 1991, if I understand you correctly?

17 A. Yes, it's true. I believe so. I don't know exact -- exact date,

18 but I know that I was sent the 16th of -- 15th or 16th I was sent from

19 Zagreb, but I don't know when I came there and -- sorry.

20 Q. Thank you. When you arrived in Belgrade and when the headquarters

21 was set up, you were assigned liaison officers by the federal secretariat

22 for All People's Defence. These liaison officers were meant to assist you

23 with your tasks and duties, and you could also use them to get through to

24 the federal secretariat for All People's Defence which was the army's

25 supreme body, wasn't it?

Page 6668

1 A. Yes. We -- we had several those liaison officers. I do remember

2 two, Colonel Memisevic, and Major Zaric, I was working mostly with them.

3 Q. Thank you. You nearly guessed my next question. Colonel

4 Memisevic was there an behalf of the federal secretariat for All People's

5 Defence, and Captain Zaric was working as an interpreter at the time, as

6 well as liaison officer. Was there somebody called Colonel Adam Loncar

7 who was also working as a liaison officer at the time; do you remember

8 him? He was assistant commander for moral guidance in the 1st Military

9 District back in 1991.

10 A. Sorry, I don't remember.

11 Q. Thank you. Do you know that after the headquarters were set up

12 and after these liaison officers were assigned to you the federal

13 secretariat for All People's Defence also set up a team to monitor any

14 cease-fires and to monitor any activities by he ECMM? This team was

15 headed by Lieutenant-General Nedeljko Maksimovic who was the deputy

16 commander of the 1st Military District. Is this something you are aware

17 of, sir?

18 A. No, I have no information about that and I didn't know about that.

19 Q. Did you ever learn or hear that there was a JNA body sending

20 reports to the operations' headquarters of the federal secretary for

21 All People's Defence, reports on your movements, on actions that were you

22 taking or anything like that? Did any of the liaison officers that you

23 were in touch with on a daily basis perhaps ever share something about

24 this with you, sir?

25 A. I have no any idea about that. What I can say that I saw only

Page 6669

1 some passing formations coming about, but it was -- it was publicly sent

2 to -- to -- as a -- as a press statement of JNA. So I have no knowledge

3 about that we were, let's say, monitored.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. What about Lieutenant-General Nedeljko -- or

5 Mladenko Maksimovic? I imagine you should know him because his name

6 appears on the first page of your notebook 04087760. His name is right

7 there. Did you know him in person or did you just simply write his name

8 down in connection with this brief encounter that you described, the one

9 that occurred on the 18th of November?

10 A. I don't remember his -- his name, his face. I don't know the

11 reason why the name is there. If there is no contact, so ...

12 Q. If you can, sir, please go to page 1 in your own notebook, just to

13 avoid any confusion. This is 0468-7760. Right at the top of the page

14 there is the name.

15 A. Yeah, I see the name. Yeah, I can see the name, that it was

16 meeting with -- or he attended a meeting in Belgrade. It's all what I can

17 say.

18 Q. Thank you. Throughout your stint with the ECMM from September to

19 December 1991, did you ever meet any representatives of the federal

20 secretariat for All People's Defence or anybody from the General Staff of

21 the JNA? Did you meet the commander of the 1st Military District, General

22 Zivota Panic? Did you meet his deputy, Lieutenant-General Maksimovic. I

23 see that there was a meeting. Did you meet these people or not? Do you

24 remember that, sir?

25 A. Mission, or HOM, the head of mission and me as well, or Colonel

Page 6670

1 Cunningham, we were meeting General Zivota Panic, as I remember. And what

2 was the beginning of the question? Yeah, anybody from the General Staff

3 or JNA. As you can see for me now, for my understanding now, MOD,

4 Ministry of Defence, or Savezni Sekretarijat Za, is more a civil body,

5 not -- civic body, not a military one. It seems that -- that I am -- I am

6 wrong, because now I am living in this, and that people in uniforms,

7 wearing uniforms were from both sides, not only from army and, but even

8 from MOD or Savezni Sekretarijat. I don't know.

9 Q. The then concept of the structure of the federal secretariat for

10 national defence, including the JNA General Staff, was quite different

11 from the one which is enforced in contemporary systems. So in principle

12 the federal -- at the head of the federal secretariat for national defence

13 was General Veljko Kadijevic. Are you aware of that fact?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you have an opportunity to meet with him or with Admiral Stane

16 Brovet?

17 A. I don't think I have met General Kadijevic, and I don't remember

18 that I have met Admiral Brovet. Zivota Panic is another case. We were

19 there few times, but not with those leaders.

20 Q. Thank you. Do you remember if you saw General Zivota Panic before

21 your mission in Vukovar or afterwards, or both before and after?

22 A. I remember that we were asked by JNA or -- or MOD, "we" means

23 mission, to come to Zivota Panic's office, because there is some violence

24 [sic] of rules of memorandum of understanding or something like that. So

25 we were asked to come as soon as possible. It was two days after

Page 6671

1 Vukovar's fall. But then we recognised that the -- it was presented in --

2 on Serb TV like an example of excellent cooperation of ECMM with -- with

3 military structures of Yugoslavia. So I don't know what was the main

4 reason or real reason, and I don't want to speculate about that.

5 Q. Thank you. On Friday in response to my learned friend's question

6 on a document in tab 6, which is Exhibit 305, you confirmed that this is a

7 report drafted by team 7 of the observers from the regional centre; is

8 that right?

9 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 Q. Can you please tell us when was the first time that you saw this

11 report, including all the annexes that go with it?

12 A. I don't remember, but I had to read it before our teams went

13 there, so as a member of -- of the team which is going there, we have --

14 have to read those -- those reports. But I don't remember that I have

15 read it.

16 Q. Thank you. I'm asking, because I'm interested in these

17 percentages of the ethnic composition of the population cited in

18 paragraph 2, item 3 of the report. That's on page 00381353. You can see

19 the percentages, the ethnic composition of the population in this region

20 of Ilok. What I'm interested in is if you know where this information was

21 received from about this ethnic composition. Do you have information

22 where the team got its information from? Was it from the Croatian side or

23 from some other source?

24 A. You are asking me about document which was written by somebody

25 else, so I cannot tell you the source. I can only assume that -- that it

Page 6672

1 was -- they were told by -- by Croats that -- about those figures. But I

2 really don't know.

3 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to look at the document which is

4 annex C to Exhibit 305, that's the document relating to the village of

5 Bapska. Can you please tell me if you know how the team 7 got this

6 annex C or this document?

7 A. I don't know. The same answer that was written by them. And I

8 don't remember if there is -- if there was some explanation referring to

9 that.

10 Q. Thank you. In view of the fact that the tasks that you carried

11 out as part of the European community observer mission, you saw a number

12 of military documents. Does it seem to you that this document is a little

13 bit odd? It's not in the usual format of the day, because it bears no

14 stamp, it's written by hand, it was allegedly drafted in Sid on the

15 21st of September, 1991. So are you of the opinion that it's not in the

16 form that it should be, in the form of a military document?

17 MR. MOORE: I object to that question, because this witness is not

18 qualified to give that answer, or indeed, is just being asked to

19 speculate.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Could I ask you whether, Mr. Kypr, you are familiar

21 with a military document so as to be able to describe or comment whether a

22 particular document is in usual format or not?

23 THE WITNESS: I don't remember any military documents, only those

24 press releases. And I don't remember. And some messages to us coming

25 from -- from the very centre. So it is from Belgrade. This document

Page 6673

1 supposed to be from the front line or from the -- from the field, so I can

2 imagine that it can be written by hand, but I am really not an expert, so

3 it's -- from my side, it is only speculation, both if it is not or if it

4 is true.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I think we are not likely to get much further than

6 that on that topic, Mr. Vasic.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. It's obvious

8 that I didn't really do much or -- with this question, but thank you in

9 any case.

10 Q. Do you know the name of the -- this major, Bajraktarevic? Did you

11 have the opportunity to meet such an officer in the Sid, Ilok or

12 Backa Palanka area?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. We've seen the content of this document, and my

15 learned friend dealt with that on Friday. I'm interested in this name,

16 Borislav Tomic. Do you know whether team 7 of the observer mission

17 contacted this gentleman in order to check the contents of the document

18 attached to the report? Do you have information like that, and is that

19 something that is customary in the work of the observer mission?

20 A. I have no -- any knowledge about that.

21 Q. Wasn't it the practice in the work of the monitoring mission to

22 check through the sources for various documents, the actual contents of

23 the documents?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. Thank you. Do you remember if you were in the monitoring

Page 6674

1 mission's team that visited the village of Brsadin on the 10th of October,

2 1991?

3 A. I don't remember. I don't remember.

4 Q. If I were to tell you that the team comprised an observer who was

5 from Czechoslovakia and also a person from the Netherlands, would that

6 remind you? Were there any other observers from Czechoslovakia that were

7 part of the European monitoring mission at the time?

8 A. Yes, in that time there were, I think, six, maybe eight. I don't

9 know the exact number, but it was more than four members of ECMM coming

10 from Czechoslovakia.

11 Q. Were they all part of the regional centre of the monitoring

12 mission in Belgrade, or were they also in Zagreb, Sarajevo and other

13 centres? In other words, how many of them were in Belgrade?

14 A. In Belgrade in that time I was the only Czech, or Czechoslovakian.

15 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me, the village of Brsadin,

16 according to the division at the time, division of tasks at the time, was

17 it -- was it in the jurisdiction of your observer mission or monitoring

18 mission from Belgrade, or was it under the jurisdiction of the one in

19 Zagreb? Do you remember, was there any sort of rule there?

20 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

21 Q. I apologise, but your answer was not recorded. Is it necessary

22 for me to repeat my question? I will repeat the question. It will be

23 easier --

24 A. [Previous translation continues] ... which place or to which area

25 of responsibility belongs Brsadin.

Page 6675

1 Q. You said that you do not remember, that is the part that was

2 omitted in this answer. The second part of the answer was recorded in the

3 transcript.

4 Thank you. Could you please turn to tab 12?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That's document which, in B/C/S, has the number 00381387, and

7 also 00381388. In English, in the English translation it's 03037649,

8 03037650.

9 Mr. Kypr, you see this document. Is that the -- are those the

10 minutes on the -- or the report on the referendum carried out in Ilok?

11 A. Yes, this is the copy of the report, copy of the paper we got the

12 next day after referendum when we went to Ilok.

13 Q. Thank you. The report which bears the number 00381387 in B/C/S or

14 03037649 in the English translation is actually the result of the vote in

15 the referendum on the decision of the citizens of Ilok, if they wanted to

16 surrender their weapons or not; is this correct? It states in

17 line 1: "Report on the referendum held on the 13th of October, 1991, on

18 deciding on the surrender of the whole or entire quantity of weapons."

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. And the agreement with the JNA. And the result, evident from the

21 report, is that out of 3.553 citizens who participated in the referendum,

22 940 voted in favour of surrendering weapons and signing the agreement with

23 the JNA, while 2.619 voted against.

24 A. Yes.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the counsel says 519.

Page 6676

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. That was one of my questions. Could you please now look at report

3 numbered 00381388? English translation is 03037650. Is this a report on

4 the referendum vote to decide on the second referendum question and that

5 was the decision to move out of the town altogether because of the crisis

6 situation?

7 A. Sorry, which document do you refer to, which tab do you mean?

8 A. It's tab 12, and it's the next document right after the one that

9 we just looked at.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What I would like to know is whether this is the report on the

12 vote on the second referendum question to decide whether to move out of

13 the town or not because of the crisis situation?

14 A. I believe so.

15 Q. The results here are out of 3.553 citizens altogether, 2.577 voted

16 in favour, and 5.437 decided against.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 797 voted against.

18 THE WITNESS: I think that -- yes, yes.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Your Honours, I

20 would like to have the documents in tab 12 with the numbers indicated be

21 tendered into evidence. I think we could give the documents one number,

22 because these are two referendum questions, but it's only one referendum.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received and given a number now,

25 Mr. Vasic. But under the normal procedure you would include that in your

Page 6677

1 Defence folder so that it can be accessed. It's normally undesirable for

2 the registry to access the Prosecution folder to borrow a document for you

3 and make it an exhibit. So if could you arrange for that to be dealt with

4 overnight.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour. The

6 Defence is in the position that perhaps our learned friend would tender

7 that, because it was in the Prosecution's folder. So we were surprised

8 that they did not do it. But of course we are going to do it that way, so

9 we will resolve that this evening and we will have an exhibit that will be

10 marked as a D exhibit.

11 Thank you, Your Honour.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 324.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kypr, would you be kind enough to turn to tab 18?

15 That's a document with the number 00381383, in English, to 00381384, and

16 the B/C/S translation has the number 03040699 and 03040790. This is a

17 report of the monitoring mission regional centre in Belgrade drafted on

18 the 18th of October; is that correct? 1991.

19 A. I am not quite sure, because there is the date there written hand

20 is the 18th of October, but the date in the -- in the row, RCB patrol

21 assignment is the 19th. Probably, yes, it is.

22 Q. Thank you. Would you be kind enough to read what it states in

23 item 1 of the report? It has three subparagraphs.

24 A. "Contact with Colonel Grahovac at 1100 hours on Ilok's bridge from

25 Colonel Grahovac. A, Ilok and villages Sarengrad, Bapska, Mohovo, Lovas

Page 6678

1 are safe and quiet and under JNA control. JNA find 15 tonnes of

2 explosives in Ilok. Residents of the village will have no problem if they

3 want to come back."

4 Q. Thank you. Do you know that this was the actual situation on

5 the 18th and 19th of October, 1991?

6 A. I don't remember. What I know is that when the evacuation of Ilok

7 started I had to move for Belgrade for another task, so I believe that I

8 was not there in this area. So I don't know.

9 Q. Mr. Cunningham was in this area at the time and he was part of the

10 monitoring mission, wasn't he?

11 A. No. It is not. If you can see page 1383, the team consists of

12 Finakaliotis, Bonnemann, Deprez, and somebody else who is cancelled I

13 don't know if he was there or not, but there is no name Cunningham.

14 Cunningham is there in special instructions mentioned. And it is probably

15 asked them, it means Kypr and Cunningham, for briefing, but I don't

16 remember that. No, for briefing, it is -- it is writing to those -- next

17 sentences, I believe. I can't explain that. But Cunningham was not a

18 member of the team. At least it is not written here in the names and

19 nationalities. He was there during the evacuation, but not me.

20 Q. Did the team have instructions to meet with you and Mr. Cunningham

21 on the 18th of October?

22 A. It's -- it is in a special instruction, as I have mentioned.

23 There is a remark: "See Kypr/Cunningham 18th October for briefing."

24 It's only --

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 6679

1 A. There is after each -- each mission there is a debriefing, or if

2 some other teams are going then there is a briefing for them. Yes.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, we have reached the hour when we must

4 adjourn. And we resume tomorrow at 2.15.

5 Thank you.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of

8 March, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.