Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7011

1 Monday, 3 April 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

7 Mr. Bulatovic.

8 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

9 afternoon to all.


11 Cross-examination by Mr. Bulatovic: [Continued]

12 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Schou, good afternoon. I would like to pick

14 up now where we left off on Friday. Mr. Schou, you told us that you spent

15 the night between the 19th and the 20th at Negoslavci. On the morning of

16 the 20th the meeting was held at the JNA headquarters, at least if all the

17 reports we have seen are to be believed. Do you know who exactly attended

18 the meeting on the morning of the 20th at the JNA headquarters in

19 Negoslavci?

20 A. No, I don't remember.

21 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have Exhibit 320

22 placed on our screens.

23 Q. This is at tab 22 for you, Mr. Schou. Sir, if you look at this

24 report, can you see what the teams were on the 20th, and which persons did

25 that team comprise?

Page 7012

1 A. I can't find the paper. You said 22?

2 Q. Yes. Tab 22. This is page 1. I think it must be the one you're

3 looking at. The team on the 20th of November. It's right at the

4 beginning.

5 A. Okay. November the 20th, Cunningham, Kanteres, Schou, and Kypr

6 are the members of the team.

7 Q. If we look at this report it seems that Mr. Pavkovic chaired the

8 meeting, didn't he? Do you remember that?

9 A. No, I just remember there was a colonel on that meeting.

10 Q. If you look at the portion of the report that reads, "Contact and

11 names." You will see that at number 1 we have Colonel Pavkovic.

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Could this be the same colonel who chaired the meeting, the one

14 that you saw at the meeting?

15 A. It could be.

16 Q. Thank you. Sir, do you remember what exactly you were informed

17 about at the meeting involving the wounded who were at the time in the

18 Vukovar Hospital?

19 A. I only remember that some -- that some in the hospital were

20 arrested during the night. I don't -- do not remember any more about that

21 meeting.

22 Q. Mr. Schou, if you look at the portion of the report under the

23 heading, "Main points" that's on page 2 of the written report. If you

24 could look at paragraph 3 of the report. You will read it out to you and,

25 please confirm if my reading is accurate. "A short briefing with 1." 1,

Page 7013

1 meaning Colonel Pavkovic, as we established a moment ago, it

2 says, "Wounded members of the Croatian paramilitary forces must remain

3 here. They later told us that those members had been captured and that

4 they had left the hospital before our arrival as well as certain members

5 of the former staff, Dr. Bosanac."

6 Does this tally with what you told us a while ago, that you were

7 informed that some people had been taken away from the hospital?

8 A. I can't find the page in the paper, but I just --

9 Q. I will help you with that, sir. This is page 3 -- I'm sorry, page

10 2 of the handwritten report.

11 A. Yeah, I've found it.

12 Q. Do you remember that, sir? That this is indeed what was discussed

13 at the meeting?

14 A. Yes, as I told you before, I just remember that some of the --

15 some of the patients and some of the staff were arrested before we arrived

16 in hospital.

17 Q. Yes. What I want to know is, is this what Colonel Pavkovic told

18 you? The person who chaired the meeting.

19 A. I can't remember the exact -- exactly which person who said this

20 one, but -- I can't remember exact.

21 Q. Thank you. Do you remember when you left the meeting in

22 Negoslavci, were you held up in Vukovar for about two hours, and why?

23 A. Yes, we were held up in -- at the bridge in Vukovar for about two

24 hours, and it -- the reason was that it was for our secure.

25 Q. Was the reason that you were not save the fact that some of the

Page 7014

1 streets that you were supposed to take were booby-trapped?

2 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, that question, how can this witness know if

3 he was held up? There's a difference between something being said and the

4 truth of what it is. The question is asking for confirmation of the

5 truth, not the fact it's said. There is a difference.

6 JUDGE PARKER: You followed that, have you, Mr. Bulatovic?

7 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. No problem at

8 all. I will rephrase my question altogether. It will be clear then.

9 Q. Witness, do you know what the reason was for you being detained

10 there, what was it that put your personal safety at risk?

11 A. We were told that there were snipers and that there still were

12 some mines on the roads.

13 Q. If you look at the report in front of you, do you remember there

14 being any references to snipers in that report, sir?

15 A. No, I don't remember.

16 Q. If you look at page 3, that's the B/C/S reference, and your

17 reference is page 2, the handwritten portion under "c)." it

18 says "Vukovar." Have you found that, Mr. Schou?

19 A. I found it.

20 Q. "Vukovar: Two hours wait in the centre of town. Mines being

21 cleared." Can we then agree that there is no reference to any snipers in

22 this official report?

23 A. There is no reference there, no.

24 Q. Sir, do you remember how long it took you from Negoslavci to reach

25 the bridge where you were stopped?

Page 7015

1 A. I don't remember the exact time, but the -- the kilometre is just

2 five to 10, so it couldn't take long time. But I can't remember the time.

3 Q. If you bear in mind the schedule contained in that report, and all

4 your commitments on the 20th of November, it says departure for Vukovar at

5 8.45. You said at about 8.00. I will allow for this small discrepancy.

6 What was the time or what could have been the time by the time you reached

7 that bridge where you were stopped, roughly speaking?

8 A. I can't remember the time exactly, but I remember we arrived the

9 bridge, and then we were waiting there for about two hours.

10 Q. When you reached the bridge, did you see Mr. Sljivancanin there

11 immediately on your arrival?

12 A. I can't remember if it were immediately or -- he arrived.

13 Q. While travelling along the Negoslavci-Vukovar road, did you come

14 across any other JNA officers driving, walking, regardless?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. We listed the members of your team a while ago. Were you driving

17 in just one vehicle, or was this a convoy containing several vehicles?

18 A. I just remember that we were driving in our own vehicle, and that

19 we have some military police in front and in back when we drive this road.

20 Q. Was your JNA liaison officer with you at this time?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know the reason for his absence?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When you reached the bridge was Mr. Borsinger already there?

25 A. No, I think I remember that he arrived later.

Page 7016

1 Q. Can you remember how much later, exactly?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You spoke about the discussion between Mr. Borsinger and

4 Mr. Sljivancanin at the bridge. Did you see Mr. Borsinger involved in a

5 debate with any other JNA officers there?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. I think we looked at Mr. Cunningham's report, it's at tab 27 in

8 your binder, sir. Can you please find that for me? Can we please have

9 Exhibit 333 displayed on our screens? Mr. Schou, as I said, for your

10 convenience, tab 27. Have you found that, sir?

11 A. Yes, on the top say 4269 or something like that?

12 Q. 4267, that's the page number for you, sir. If you could look at

13 item 7, please. I will read it out. In the English this is ZA00-4267.

14 Item 7. The Behaviour of the ICRC Leader: Evacuation in Vukovar. "The

15 representative of the ICRC first caught my eye at Negoslavci when I saw

16 him and Colonel M, our JNA liaison officer, engaged in a heated debate

17 about something. Several hours later the ICRC representative suddenly

18 joined the meeting that I was having with Colonel Pavkovic, the purpose of

19 which was to tackle all the issues from the message that had been faxed

20 about the evacuation of the Vukovar Hospital. I explained that he was

21 responsible for taking these steps under item 6 of the fax, as well as for

22 compiling and keeping detailed lists of everyone leaving the hospital. He

23 failed to provide an explanation and just left the meeting. The next time

24 I saw him was right in the middle of Vukovar engaged in a shouting match

25 and an argument with Colonel Pavkovic."

Page 7017

1 Mr. Schou, this is Mr. Cunningham's report. Do you remember this

2 argument or altercation between the ICRC representative and

3 Colonel Pavkovic?

4 A. No, I don't remember.

5 Q. Were you there when Mr. Borsinger was having an argument with

6 Mr. Sljivancanin?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How far were you standing from them?

9 A. About 20 metre.

10 Q. We heard a while ago that Mr. Pavkovic, at least that's what you

11 seem to remember, and also based on the report that we looked at a while

12 ago, it appears that Mr. Pavkovic was chairing the meeting in Negoslavci.

13 Do you remember this colonel, Mr. Pavkovic, from Negoslavci? Did you see

14 him at the bridge?

15 A. Yes, I saw him at the bridge.

16 Q. Did you see him engaging in any sort of contact with the ICRC

17 representative?

18 A. As I told you before, I don't remember any contact between the

19 two.

20 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please play

21 the video that is Exhibit 335? That is a video clip we have a transcript,

22 which has been marked for identification. If the technicians could please

23 play that video clip. And the transcript is 336, if Mr. Schou could

24 please have a look.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 7018

1 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Schou, you had the transcript of this conversation in front of

3 you. The dialogue is partly in English. Based on this, can we conclude

4 that Colonel Pavkovic did have an argument with Mr. Borsinger? Do you

5 remember this happening?

6 A. As I told you, I can't remember it happened, but -- but I were

7 there, and you could see me on the picture. I was 20 metre behind the

8 car. But I can't remember it.

9 Q. So the footage is authentic, it shows the day when you were at the

10 bridge, the 20th of November, 1991, and this happened in Vukovar, right?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Can we agree on this, sir, having watched the footage, having

13 heard the dialogue that took place, the JNA does not seem to be impeding

14 the ICRC man from going to the hospital, all they're asking him to do is

15 to move along together with the column in a vehicle in which you were too

16 all they're asking him to do is to move his vehicle and join the column

17 just behind your own vehicle. Isn't what you heard now?

18 A. I heard this, yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you remember Mr. Cunningham being there?

20 A. No.

21 Q. If you are saying that he wasn't there, can you explain how he

22 possibly could have been in a position to write a report such as the one

23 that I read out to you a while ago, covering, among other things, the

24 actions of an ICRC representative, and this report appears to be based on

25 his personal observations?

Page 7019

1 A. I can't explain how Cunningham is saying so, but I think he must

2 have talked with Mr. Kypr or something like that. But he wasn't -- he

3 wasn't at that place.

4 Q. Mr. Schou, is it possible that Mr. Cunningham was there after all,

5 but after this he left for Belgrade immediately? Is that a possibility?

6 A. No.

7 Q. How then can we explain the fact that I mentioned a moment ago, he

8 is writing this report from his own perspective, he is covering the

9 evacuation of the hospital and the steps being taken by the ICRC. How can

10 he possibly do this if he wasn't there?

11 MR. MOORE: The witness has already answered that particular

12 question. I can see no point at all, and why this witness is being asked

13 to reply to the question a second time, which is speculative in any event.

14 JUDGE PARKER: I think you have made your point, Mr. Bulatovic.

15 You can happily move on.

16 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Schou, when did you reach the hospital?

18 A. I don't remember the exact time, but it was about two hours after

19 we arrived to -- into the city.

20 Q. When did you enter the hospital?

21 A. I entered the hospital when we arrived to the hospital.

22 Q. Do you remember how long you stayed in the hospital and what you

23 did while you were inside the hospital?

24 A. I stay in the hospital for about three hours, I think. I have --

25 I have not the exact time. But -- and I was walking around in the

Page 7020

1 hospital and I had a military police person, you can say, guarding me.

2 Q. During that period of time, during those three hours, did you ever

3 go outside of the building, or were you in the building the whole time?

4 A. I was also outside the building, I was outside where they were

5 loading all the wounded in the ambulance, in the military ambulance, and I

6 was also in the front of the building talking with one of the staff

7 members, a lady doctor, which I was talking with one month before. But I

8 can't remember what we were talking about. She was just saying a few

9 things.

10 Q. Mr. Schou, can you please tell me, out of those three hours that

11 you spent in the hospital how long were you outside of the building when

12 you talked to this person outside of the building, when you observed the

13 wounded being loaded on to ambulances?

14 A. I can't remember the exact time I was outside the building and how

15 long time I stay in the building. I was just walking around that three

16 hours.

17 Q. Did you see Mr. Borsinger in front of the hospital?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Mr. Schou, if I were to tell you that we had witnesses here during

20 the trial who confirmed that on the 20th in the morning they saw

21 Mr. Borsinger in front of the hospital and that they saw him talking to

22 Mr. Sljivancanin, would you say that it was possible that he was, after

23 all, in front of the hospital at the time when you were inside the

24 building and that that was the reason why you did not see him?

25 A. I can't -- that's -- of course it is possible, but I -- I did not

Page 7021

1 see him.

2 Q. Thank you. On Friday when answering questions put to you by

3 Mr. Borovic, you said that your personal opinion was that Mr. Borsinger

4 could have done more; is that right?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Could we now show Exhibit 333, tab 27, please. We had that

7 document on the screen just a little bit ago. Let us just see it again to

8 remind us of its content. Let us now see the portion from item 7, which

9 concerns the conduct of the International Committee of the Red Cross

10 leaders. We read this out, Mr. Schou, just about 10 minutes ago. Let me

11 ask you this: Can we agree that based on this report that I read out to

12 you just a little bit ago, this item 7 concerning the conduct of the ICRC

13 representatives, this is your report that was submitted, and in addition

14 to that we also saw on Friday the report that you saw. And, based on

15 that, can we agree that the reason for the inadequate work of Mr.

16 Borsinger and the ICRC did not come about because their work was hindered

17 by the JNA, and you could see that based on the video showing his

18 conversation with Mr. Pavkovic, but rather that the reason for their

19 inadequate work was that Mr. Borsinger was a man, who in your words, did

20 not do anything, who came into conflict with your liaison officer,

21 Mr. Memisevic, who also had a clash with chief of mission, Mr. Cunningham,

22 who was also the team leader. He had a clash with Mr. Sljivancanin, and

23 Mr. Pavkovic. Therefore, this is a conflict-prone personality, that of

24 Mr. Borsinger. Could we conclude that, based on all of these facts that I

25 just cited to you?

Page 7022

1 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, I object to the question, if it is a

2 question. It's more a statement, in my submission. The question is

3 perfectly simple, I would have thought. And that is whether in actual

4 fact, as has been declared, allegedly, whether the ICRC representative was

5 unable to proceed, that the inadequacy was his and not as a result of the

6 JNA blocking him. Surely that is the question that has to be dealt with.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, please, Mr. Bulatovic.

8 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to hear the

9 position of the witness based on all of the evidence, reports of the

10 mission --

11 JUDGE PARKER: Just carry on.

12 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to see witness's position

13 concerning Mr. Borsinger.

14 Q. Mr. Schou, can you answer my question, please?

15 A. The only thing I can say to that is to my opinion Mr. Borsinger

16 was not good for his job, and some things were because he were in conflict

17 with everyone.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Schou, I'd like to go back to a date that I

19 should have addressed first, but due to the relevance of other questions,

20 I turned to them first. I would like now to discuss the convoy of the 9th

21 of October in which you participated.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's question, 19th of October.

23 Q. Was Mr. Michele [phoen] in that convoy? This is the gentleman who

24 was a representative of Medecins sans Frontieres. I think that you

25 mentioned him and said that you knew him.

Page 7023

1 A. I knew him. He is an ECMM member, he is not a representative of

2 Medecins sans Frontieres.

3 Q. The information I have indicates otherwise, but perhaps it's

4 possible what you are saying. Was he in the convoy on the 19th of

5 October, 1991?

6 A. I am a little confused. Mr. Michele, can you describe him for me?

7 Q. Mr. Schou, I was about to ask you to describe him for us.

8 A. The -- the leader of our convoy was a French colonel, and I think

9 his name was something like that, but I'm not sure I can recognise him on

10 the photo. We had the photo on Friday where he was drinking, I think the

11 sljivovic with Mr. Sljivancanin.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now see

14 Exhibit 338, photograph 1? Which is 0036-6974. This is the number of the

15 photograph.

16 Q. Do you see it on the screen, the photograph, Mr. Schou?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you take this photograph?

19 A. No, I think this photograph is taken -- taken one month before I

20 arrived in Yugoslavia.

21 Q. The man you see in this photograph, is this Mr. Robert Michele,

22 based on your recollection?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know perhaps where this photograph was taken and on which

25 occasion?

Page 7024

1 A. No, I just remember that it was taken in a JNA barracks somewhere.

2 Q. As for convoy on the 19th of October, 1991, do you remember who

3 said that the convoy should take the route via Marinci, Luzac, and

4 Vukovar -- Vukovar barracks?

5 A. No.

6 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a correction

7 for the transcript, page 14, line 9. Bogdanovci is missing from the route

8 taken. It should be Marinci, Bogdanovci, Luzac, and Vukovar Hospital.

9 Not the barracks, but rather the hospital.

10 Q. Do you know who provided guarantees to the chief of the convoy

11 that this route was safe?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you remember that before the convoy entered Vukovar on the 19th

14 of October you were stopped in the village of Marinci?

15 A. I just have to look at a map to see how -- which really is

16 Marinci. I just have to find the report.

17 Q. Could we see a sketch on the screen, please? ERN number

18 0036-6971. This sketch has not been admitted into evidence yet, but I

19 believe it will be of assistance to the witness if he were to see it on

20 the screen. If it's a problem to put it on the screen, Your Honours, I

21 have a hard copy of it and I can provide it to the witness if the usher

22 will help me so that we do not waste any more time.

23 A. I have my own. Yes, we were stopped in Marinci for, I think, half

24 an hour or something like that.

25 Q. Do you remember whether Mr. Pavkovic and Mr. Sljivancanin were

Page 7025

1 there?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. Do you remember that on that occasion it was suggested to you that

4 when travelling to Vukovar you should travel via Marinci, Petrovci,

5 Vukovar, and that you rejected this suggestion?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. Do you remember that the JNA representatives who stopped you in

8 Marinci told you that Bogdanovci was under the control of the Croatian

9 forces, the so-called Croatian army, and that the area around Bogdanovci

10 had been mined, therefore they were unable to guarantee your safety there?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. Do you remember whether Croatian forces indeed had Bogdanovci

13 under their control at the time?

14 A. Yes, I remember when we arrived Bogdanovci, there was Croatian

15 forces.

16 Q. As a man who has military training and holds a military rank, let

17 me ask you this: If certain forces have a certain place under their

18 control, is it then a fact that these forces placed the mines around that

19 location in order to defend themselves? In other words, are the mines

20 usually placed by those who are defending the area, or those who are

21 attacking it, based on your experience?

22 A. It's placed by the forces who are defending -- defending their

23 area.

24 Q. The positions protected in this manner, were they also

25 safe-guarded by some other military means? You will agree with me that

Page 7026

1 mines alone do not mean much unless there are other sorts of protection.

2 A. I can only talk about my own military experience. Mines alone are

3 not -- are nothing, but you have to guard them.

4 Q. Thank you. Do you remember whether this route that I just read

5 out to you, Marinci, Petrovci, Bogdanovci, Vukovar Hospital, was the JNA

6 informed of this route when you set out from Zagreb?

7 A. Yes. And we have a liaison officer with us from the military --

8 from the military headquarter in Zagreb.

9 Q. The ones who were leading the convoy who escaped, as you said,

10 upon seeing a tank, who were these people, if you know?

11 A. I only saw them, and they were -- they wearing military uniforms

12 of that kind like -- yes, soldier.

13 Q. What kind of uniforms? Uniforms of which army?

14 A. They were Croatian army.

15 Q. All right. After a vehicle hit a mine, the incident that you

16 described to us, you said that after that on that day you did not speak to

17 Mr. Sljivancanin, you were stopped by a tank, and then you told us that

18 you did not speak to Mr. Sljivancanin, but that however you heard that he

19 had told somebody, perhaps the chief of mission, that you need to turn

20 back. Do you remember this conversation?

21 A. I only -- only remember that -- when I heard that we should take

22 the -- the agreed road back.

23 Q. Do you remember that the chief of your mission, or perhaps the

24 leader of the convoy, asked the JNA to take him to the road to Bogdanovci,

25 that that was the only request put forward?

Page 7027

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Do you remember that evening, after the incident with the mine

3 when the army took you to the road to Petrovci, how long did it take to

4 pull your convoy out of that area and to the other area and under what

5 circumstances did that take place?

6 A. I remember we get stuck in the fields, and that we get help from

7 the APC, from the Yugoslavian forces to reach a normal road, and I think

8 it take one hour or something like that.

9 Q. So the whole process to pull the convoy out took one hour; is that

10 right?

11 A. To my opinion, yes.

12 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Your Honours.

13 Q. Mr. Schou, let me ask you something else. Before you were sent to

14 the area as a member of the ECMM, did you have any information and, if so,

15 what type of information, concerning the nature and type of the conflict

16 taking place in the territory of the former Yugoslavia?

17 A. Yes, we get a briefing in our intelligence headquarter in Denmark

18 where they told us about Yugoslavia and the conflict and which kind of

19 people in each region, and what they -- what they were working, how they

20 speak, which kind of language, which church they believe, and all this

21 thing.

22 Q. Did they tell you anything about the ethnic composition of the

23 population in the area to which you were sent?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember what you were told about the ethnic composition?

Page 7028

1 A. We were told that some of the area, they were mixed by Croatian,

2 Serbian, Bosnian, and all kind of religion.

3 Q. Did they tell you why an armed conflict erupted? What kind of

4 explanation did they give you for that?

5 A. They only tell us that some part of the country want to be -- to

6 be separate.

7 Q. Do you remember which part of the country it was which wanted to

8 secede?

9 A. I don't understand the word "secede."

10 Q. To secede means to leave some kind of a union, to break away from

11 it.

12 A. Okay. Yes, we were told that Slovenian was trying to secede, and

13 that Croatian were trying to secede.

14 Q. Mr. Schou, we were able to see in your personal reports as well as

15 in team reports that were sent to the headquarters in Zagreb, and we now

16 need to ask you whether the Kingdom of Denmark, back in 1991, was a member

17 of the Council of Europe?

18 A. Yes, it was.

19 Q. The reports that you sent, did they ever serve as a basis for

20 adopting certain political decisions in the Council of Europe, were they

21 housed as material based on which the Council of Europe adopted certain

22 decisions concerning the situation in the territory of the former

23 Yugoslavia?

24 MR. MOORE: In my submission, the witness couldn't possibly answer

25 that.

Page 7029

1 JUDGE PARKER: I agree, Mr. Moore.

2 And, Mr. Bulatovic, if you remember, we were asking you to focus

3 on what's important to this indictment. And these are, at best, general

4 background questions. Time is running out.

5 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

6 I have a couple of questions left and then I will conclude my

7 cross-examination.

8 Q. Mr. Schou, having talked to Mr. Sljivancanin, you described him as

9 a person who made lots of political references in his conversations with

10 you, right?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. When asked by my learned friend, Mr. Borovic, you said that you

13 had heard such terms as, "Chetniks" and "Ustashas" being used without

14 knowing exactly what those terms meant, right?

15 A. Yes, in the beginning I did not know what this word refer to.

16 Q. In your conversations with Mr. Sljivancanin do you remember him

17 saying that the JNA was the only regular army around? Do you remember him

18 referring to that fact?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. Do you remember that he mentioned while talking to you that all

21 paramilitary and irregular police units should be disarmed?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Do you remember him saying, and it appears that you don't, at

24 least not directly in your conversations, that the JNA would cease all

25 combat operations and that they would make sure that everyone,

Page 7030

1 irrespective of their ethnic background, would have the right conditions

2 in place to have a normal life?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. Sir, do you remember that before you were dispatched to the former

5 Yugoslavia you attended a number of briefings where you were told about

6 the ethnic make-up of the area? Did they tell you anything about the JNA

7 and the ethnic make-up of the JNA itself?

8 A. Yes, they tell -- yeah, tell us that the JNA was an army which

9 contain all part of the former Yugoslavia.

10 Q. Mr. Schou, back in 1991 did you have an opportunity to see the

11 Yugoslav flag? Do you know what it looked like?

12 A. No, I don't remember.

13 Q. Do you remember if that flag, which you don't remember, had a red

14 five-pointed star on it?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. Do you remember Mr. Sljivancanin telling you anything about any of

17 the republics, or anything, or was it the case that he kept talking about

18 the pro-Yugoslav orientation of the JNA? Do you remember anything like

19 that, sir?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. You testified that when you saw Mr. Sljivancanin on the 20th of

22 November, 1991, you did not notice any ranks visibly displayed or any

23 insignia. Was that the case, sir?

24 A. I can't -- the answer is that I -- when I saw him on the 20th

25 November, I can't remember any rank.

Page 7031

1 Q. Finally, Mr. Schou, do you remember that on the 20th of November

2 you saw the Yugoslav flag displayed on the left-hand pocket of Mr.

3 Sljivancanin's shirt, the Yugoslav flag, a five-pointed star? Does any of

4 that ring a bell, sir?

5 A. No, I can't remember.

6 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic. Could I mention for all

9 counsel that Mr. Bulatovic was concerned at one point that a sketch didn't

10 come up quickly on the e-court. That sketch, I am told, is not in your

11 Defence folder. Unless it's in your Defence folder, the court officials

12 can't bring it up quickly. If you would all bear that in mind. Thank

13 you.

14 Yes, Mr. Moore.

15 Re-examination by Mr. Moore:


17 Q. You have told us about a photograph showing Major Sljivancanin and

18 gentleman called Michele sharing a glass of wine, or sljivovic, as it's

19 been called. Do you remember that photograph?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It's our Exhibit 338. You have told us that it was at a JNA

22 barracks.

23 A. I was told that.

24 Q. Yes. About one month after you had arrived -- well, I'm quoting

25 you on your evidence -- well, one month --

Page 7032

1 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

3 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may, the witness clearly said

4 that the photograph was taken one month before he arrived, and not after

5 he arrived, as Mr. Moore has just been telling us.

6 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

7 Q. And your date of arrival, I think you left Denmark on the 15th of

8 October; is that right?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And we have heard evidence in relation to the 18th and 19th of

11 October. In respect of the mission to Vukovar.

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Now, can I deal with that photograph that was one month prior to

14 your arrival? And thank you very much for that assistance. The JNA

15 barracks, do you know where that barracks was where he met Sljivancanin?

16 A. I was told at that time, but I can't remember the barracks, which

17 name it was.

18 Q. Can you remember the location?

19 A. No, it was in the Vukovar area, but which barracks, I'm not -- I

20 can't tell you.

21 Q. All right. Thank you very much, indeed. Can I move on, please,

22 to a question that you were asked, and the reply that you gave was as

23 follows: "The only thing that I can say that Mr. Borsinger was not good

24 for his job, and some things" - my emphasis - "was because he was in

25 conflict with everyone."

Page 7033

1 Would you look, please, I think it is our Exhibit 341, tab 40.

2 Now, do you have tab 40 in front of you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Just to remind us, it's right to say that

5 this particular document, as we can see on the second page, was compiled

6 by yourself; is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Thank you very much. I just want to deal with one or two aspects,

9 where you say that he was on some things were because he were in conflict

10 with everyone. Can we deal then please, with your analysis or your

11 conclusions in relation to your dealings with Borsinger? Now, let's go to

12 page 1, please. Have you got that?

13 A. I think so.

14 Q. We have got "comments." Have you got "comments" down at the

15 bottom?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And we have got then the 20th of the 11th. Have you got that

18 entry?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, can we deal then, please, with the subheadings that you have

21 created. ICMM was held back. Chetniks in hospital, and then there is

22 reference, "too less ambulances and buses. Nothing prepared by JNA and

23 ICRC."

24 Do you see that?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 7034

1 Q. Now, let's move on to A. With regard to the ICRC, it

2 says, "Leader ICRC only criticised JNA"?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. "2: Make no list of wounded," and "do nothing"?

5 A. Mm-hmm.

6 Q. Let's deal, please, with the situation as you perceived it on the

7 20th for the JNA participation on that day. Could you just read it out

8 slowly, please?

9 A. Yes, from the JNA point 1, "No security, many Chetniks."

10 Q. When you say "no security," no security where?

11 A. It means that we were --

12 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.


14 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the line

15 of questioning being pursued by my learned friend right now does not arise

16 from the cross-examination of this witness.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic, I think it does.

18 Carry on, please, Mr. Moore.


20 Q. Can we carry on? With regard to, "No security, many Chetniks."

21 Security in relation to what, please?

22 A. In relation to our own situation and in relation to the hospital.

23 Q. And when we talk about the hospital situation, can you please, in

24 shortened form, tell us what you mean by that, the absence of security and

25 the participation of Chetniks at the hospital?

Page 7035

1 A. It was because we saw Chetniks walking around in the hospital with

2 weapons and beating the -- some of the wounded.

3 Q. Thank you. Let's go to number 2. Have you got that?

4 A. Yes. "Too many officers. Only few soldiers."

5 Q. And what was the relevance of that when we talk about the JNA

6 participation or control?

7 A. It was in the hospital and it was almost medical staff officers I

8 saw, and they were only few soldiers, so there were nothing to -- no

9 people to help carrying the wounded.

10 Q. Thank you. Let's deal with number 3. "No control, no

11 organising." What is meant by that, please in the JNA participation?

12 A. That means that they were not ambulance enough, and there were

13 no -- no system over the evacuation, no priority. Yes.

14 Q. Number 4 we've already dealt with, it's subsumed within 2. 5,

15 perhaps, is subsumed within 1. And then 6 we've got shooting in the air.

16 And what was number 7?

17 A. Number 7 is, "Mortar firing from the city."

18 Q. Okay. Let's -- that's the 20th. And you've said that the ICRC

19 make no list of wounded. Let's turn over the page, please, to the 21st,

20 the following day. Let's look at your view on the ICRC again, and then

21 compare it with the JNA. So ICRC, please?

22 A. They got good prepared, they make lists. They were -- number 2,

23 they had good helping in organising everything but their leader only make

24 trouble.

25 Q. Thank you. So on the 20th, there is no list; on the 21st, there

Page 7036

1 is a list. But you maintain your position with regard to the leader.

2 What about the JNA? Can we deal with number 1, please?

3 A. Yes, number 1, "Lieutenant Colonel make good job," I can't

4 remember exactly which person it was at that time.

5 Q. All right. Number 2, "buses bad for wounded people." Now, why

6 are buses bad for wounded people?

7 A. Because they had to sit up in a bus, they were trying to put the

8 patient on -- what do you call that, where you carry the wound.

9 Q. Stretcher?

10 A. Stretcher and then put it up on the back of the seat on the bus.

11 Q. And is that a good thing or a bad thing?

12 A. That's a bad thing.

13 Q. Why is that a bad thing, doctor?

14 A. Because when you were laying there, you are falling down when you

15 are moving the buses.

16 Q. Let's move on then please to number 3. Better security?

17 A. "Better security but still Chetniks in the hospital."

18 Q. And what is meant by that on the 21st?

19 A. It means that there were more, you can say normal military

20 hospital personnel in the hospital.

21 Q. All right. Number 4 in some ways we've heard. And then number 5,

22 please?

23 A. "No security of the convoy."

24 Q. And then finally, can we deal with your general comments? What

25 was your conclusion, please, in relation to the JNA involvement in this

Page 7037

1 convoy and --

2 A. "My conclusion is, from the JNA, that --

3 Q. Evacuation?

4 A. -- there were very bad organisation in the evacuation, in

5 logistic, organisation, work, and priority, and they were good organised

6 in the infirmary and there were no security of the wounded and there were

7 some drunk officers, there were no control over the Chetnik, and they

8 removed wounded and staff before ICMM arrived. And they were shooting

9 mortar from Vukovar."

10 Q. And then we've got the ICRC, which perhaps I needn't repeat as it

11 was a summary?

12 A. He was bad leader and -- the leader was bad and there were no help

13 the 20th of November, but good help in 21 of November.

14 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like to move on to another topic if I

15 may, please. You were asked by counsel on behalf of Mr. Sljivancanin

16 about what I will call the evacuation agreement -- agreement, and I would

17 like you to turn up, please, to our Exhibit 40, at tab 20. And you were

18 asked questions about manning or personnel to help the evacuation. Do you

19 remember that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, can we please look at the agreement a little more carefully?

22 Can we please look at paragraph 4? Have you got that in front of you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Shall I read it to assist? "The YPA will provide suitable

25 military vehicles for the movement from Vukovar to Zidine, and the

Page 7038

1 Republic of Croatia will provide suitable vehicles for the remainder of

2 the journey."

3 The next part, please. "Both parties will provide suitably

4 equipped and manned ambulances for some 40 seriously ill and lorries and

5 coaches."

6 Can you explain to me how it was that you said that there was no

7 mention of personnel in this agreement when we have the reference

8 to "manned"? Can you just explain to me and to the Court?

9 A. I don't understand the answer -- the question.

10 Q. You seem to suggest that there was nothing in the agreement about

11 manned. Manned means personnel?

12 A. Manned means personnel, yes.

13 Q. And you said there was nothing in the agreement about that.

14 Having looked at this, does this assist you in any way?

15 A. Yes, when there's mentioned here, manned ambulances, there must be

16 some you can say hospital personnel any kind, military or civilian, in the

17 ambulance.

18 Q. And does that apply as we read on to lorries and coaches as well?

19 Presuming that they don't drive themselves?

20 A. No, there must be some staff, some men, some hospital staff.

21 Q. Thank you very much for that. Can I just move on to another piece

22 of evidence that you -- you gave, it relates to the 18th, I think the 18th

23 of November. I believe it's November. And you were asked as a result of

24 questions by Mr. Bulatovic, you came to the conclusion that the hospital

25 was under the control of the ZNG. Can I just try and clarify that,

Page 7039

1 please? On the 18th of October [sic] did you actually go to the hospital?

2 A. On the 18th, no.

3 Q. Then if you didn't go to the hospital, how do you know it was

4 under the control of the ZNG?

5 A. We were told that.

6 Q. By whom?

7 A. By the -- by the -- just a moment. We were told by the Serbian.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 Q. So in actual fact you didn't have any personal knowledge yourself;

10 is that right?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Thank you. Can I just go through with one or two other points,

13 please? Dealing with weapons. You have a military background, you had a

14 military background in 1991; is that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. You were asked by the Danish military to assess the weapons that

17 perhaps were unsure around Vukovar?

18 A. No, not special around Vukovar, no.

19 Q. Was Vukovar part of that brief?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So you weren't to look at any of the weapons around Vukovar?

22 A. We were looking after weapon all over Yugoslavia.

23 Q. All right. Well, let's --

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, line 29:25, I think it was the 18th of

25 November, not October.

Page 7040

1 MR. MOORE: I thought I said November.

2 JUDGE PARKER: I think you did. I'm pointing it out.

3 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

4 Q. Can we deal then, please, can we focus on military weapons around

5 the Vukovar area. You were there the 18th, 19th and 20th, and 21st,

6 actually. Is that right?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Now, can we deal with the -- with the weapons that you saw and

9 what I will call the JNA saw and weapons that you saw on what I will call

10 the Croatian side for -- for assistance? Now, can I deal with the JNA

11 side?

12 A. Yes, because -- you can -- you can deal with JNA because I saw no

13 Croatian soldiers on the 18th, 19th, 20th, and 21.

14 Q. Thank you very much. But I want to deal with weapons. Things

15 like tanks, artillery, multiple-rocket launchers. Did you see any tanks

16 around Vukovar on any of those days?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the sort of tanks, the number of tanks, can you tell us about

19 the JNA side compared by the Croat side? Numbers, for example?

20 A. I can't --

21 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry for interrupting. The

24 witness was quite clear about not seeing any Croatian forces on the 18th,

25 19th, and 20th. If he saw no Croatian forces, then how can he be expected

Page 7041

1 to speak about any weapons they had, including heavy weapons? I believe

2 the question is somewhat too leading. Thank you.

3 MR. MOORE: I would submit --

4 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry, Mr. Borovic, I don't see the question to

5 be leading when it's asking about specific types of armament. And in

6 truth if none was seen is the answer, then we can move on quickly.

7 Yes, Mr. Moore.

8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Your Honour, I

9 accept that, thank you.


11 Q. Did you see any multiple rocket launchers?

12 A. Yes, I saw one, I think it was the 18th.

13 Q. And are you able to tell us, it was on the JNA side or Croatian

14 side?

15 A. It was on the JNA side.

16 Q. And with regard to the multiple-rocket launcher, there are various

17 sorts, there are ones on large lorries and there are ones that can be

18 towed. Can you remember in general terms, the sort size of it?

19 A. I remember it was an - what do you call it? - a small-size one who

20 had to be collect up by another vehicle.

21 Q. Now, can you help me please from your own military experience, if

22 you have a military -- if you have a mobile rocket launcher, what is the

23 nature of that weapon when it actually fires items? Does it deal with a

24 specific target precisely, or is it an -- an item that deals with an area?

25 A. It deals with an area.

Page 7042

1 Q. Can we deal with artillery? Did you see any artillery pieces?

2 A. No. I don't remember.

3 Q. Thank you. And what about tanks?

4 A. I saw tanks, I think it was just outside Negoslavci.

5 Q. Did you see any Croatian tanks?

6 A. No, I did not see any Croatian forces at all.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour forgive me a moment? I just may

9 have one more question.

10 I have no more questions. Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Moore.

12 Dr. Schou, you will be pleased to know that that is the end of

13 your questioning. The Chamber would like to thank you for your attendance

14 here in The Hague, and for the assistance you have been able to give. And

15 you may of course now return to your home and other responsibilities.

16 Thank you, indeed.

17 We must now have the first break and will resume at five minutes

18 past 4.00.

19 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, could we ask for 10 more minutes than

20 that? And may I explain why? We were given a large bundle by Dr. Bosanac

21 last week. We have had a photocopied. And quite simply we've given it to

22 my learned friends. We have other bundles as well. We are trying to

23 highlight them in a way that will assist everybody and to put them into

24 files. You have probably seen people coming in and out of court. And if

25 I could perhaps have an extra 10 minutes I would then hope that the

Page 7043

1 documents would be then be able available for everybody and I believe it

2 will speed up the proceedings this afternoon.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Very well, but you may be able to help me. I

4 raised on Friday the diary, or notes.

5 MR. MOORE: Yes.

6 JUDGE PARKER: I am told that they have not been --

7 MR. MOORE: Apparently not.

8 JUDGE PARKER: -- tendered yet. Do you propose to do that?

9 MR. MOORE: Yes, I make application for the original diary and for

10 the typed translation to accompany it. Perhaps the diary can be A, and

11 the translation can be B.

12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received, both part of the same exhibit.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the diary will be Exhibit Number

14 344.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. We will resume at a quarter

16 past 4.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.

19 JUDGE PARKER: I hope that was time enough for your needs,

20 Mr. Moore.

21 MR. MOORE: It was, thank you very much. And I am very grateful.

22 Can I just indicate, because my learned friends and I agreed to keep the

23 witness out pro tem, the situation with Dr. Bosanac, who is being

24 recalled, is as follows: In September, October, she provided a CD which I

25 did mention to the Court when she was called, and that has been downloaded

Page 7044

1 and is in hard copy. The problem that we had with that document was it

2 mentioned all the people who had been at the hospital for the year, I

3 think, 1991. We had other dates as well. Because of the concern over

4 medical privilege the names were redacted, but all the other details were

5 disclosed. That document is now in hard copy form, and I've got it for

6 the Court. May I just pass this forward at this time so that I can

7 explain certain matters?


9 MR. MOORE: And the Defence have got it as well. The document

10 that the Court has with the blue file has got -- it's an OTP document, if

11 I may use that phrase. There is an index which is fairly straightforward,

12 and then if one goes to the first page one can see that there would have

13 been names and if, for example, one just casually flicks through the

14 document, you can see occasionally names on the left-hand side. The best

15 example of it, I suppose, would be page 29 where we can see five names. I

16 only choose that page for -- for assistance. Now, those names that are

17 there are individuals who were at the Vukovar Hospital as we would submit,

18 and who subsequently, again, we submit, were killed at Ovcara. So it

19 links with the appendix on the indictment. One can see that in actual

20 fact there is a burgundy colour. The index shows quite clearly that there

21 is a slight discrepancy in spelling and I can deal with that in due

22 course. With regard to the yellow, there is a discrepancy with date of

23 birth. And then there is the three other heads, which are in black,

24 green, and blue. That is the OTP document.

25 Could I just indicate how it came to fruition, again to assist the

Page 7045

1 Court. When we supplied the Defence with the CD, we then printed in hard

2 copy. And this is the document. It is an enormous document. My learned

3 friends have got it. And what I have attempted to do is extract from this

4 document the relevant parts. Namely, the name of the person, if they were

5 deceased, the date of admission, the location where they came from, and

6 the diagnosis of injury. And whether in actual fact they were part of ZNG

7 or any other element, I've tried to encapsulate all the points that would

8 assist my learned friend, the Court and my learned friends, not only to

9 myself in evidence-in-chief, but also in cross-examination. So this is an

10 extraction from the large document, the blue is the extraction from the

11 large document. I have not printed up the large document because it's

12 almost unintelligible.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Now, can you tell me, most spaces for the name are

14 blank?

15 MR. MOORE: Yes, they are individuals who, we submit, are still

16 living. They are people who were entered into the Vukovar Hospital at

17 some time. If I take the first page by way of example -- just get my

18 glasses. One can see, and I hope that I get it right, that it's blank,

19 then we've got ZNG, so that person was entered as a member of the ZNG, the

20 date of entry to the hospital, as far as I'm aware, is the 17th of the

21 10th. Then it is the location where they came from is Vukovar, we have a

22 diagnosis of the injury. I believe that the -- the Datum Unosa is the

23 date of entry. Because this document, if I just forewarn the court and my

24 learned friends, was created by the hospital, I would submit the evidence

25 will be as follows: That the details were -- a patient would come in,

Page 7046

1 they would be registered. The registration details would then be e-mailed

2 or sent to Zagreb. And the -- this document, or the large document, was

3 created as a result of the compiling of the information in Zagreb. And

4 then it has been given back to the hospital.

5 There were no records at the hospital, because you may remember

6 that Dr. Bosanac said that the records were taken away after the fall of

7 the hospital, and they have never been recovered. So this is a document

8 which has been compiled as a result of registration, then transmission to

9 Zagreb, and the document then coming back and Dr. Bosanac saying, as I

10 believe she will, that this document correctly encapsulates or records the

11 people in the hospital. So that is the blue document.

12 The second document --

13 JUDGE PARKER: The named people then are those who are dead?

14 MR. MOORE: Yes.

15 JUDGE PARKER: On your case.

16 MR. MOORE: Yes. And they will link, I believe, with -- if one

17 looks metaphorically into the -- the appendix to the indictment there are

18 names there. And those names can be found, where appropriate, can be

19 found on the left-hand side. So, for example, as I say, if I take the

20 first example, there is none on page 1, page 3, 3 has got one.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It is enough for us to know that that is a person

22 whom you advance as dead.

23 MR. MOORE: Yes.

24 JUDGE PARKER: What about those who are missing?

25 MR. MOORE: There is a different document which was being brought

Page 7047

1 by Dr. Bosanac which is the document that I have in front of me, this very

2 large document. And the way that that appears to have been constructed is

3 that there are three subdivisions. Subdivision A is a group of people by

4 Dr. Bosanac's counting, 97 of those people are named in the annex to the

5 indictment that she indicated that they are wounded, and they were in the

6 Vukovar Hospital at the time of the fall of Vukovar. There are -- so you

7 are talking about 97 of them, there are three spelling irregularities and

8 two that are actually not named in the indictment and they are located --

9 or they were exhumed at Ovcara and we will hear evidence subsequently

10 identified by Guncevic -- Grujic, my apologies. So with regard to that

11 list, it comes from the hospital, they are named in the indictment, they

12 are wounded, and they are exhumed at Ovcara, and identified by one of two

13 methods. So that's one of the subdivisions.

14 The second subdivision relates again to people who were exhumed at

15 Ovcara, they are named in the annex of the indictment, they are identified

16 by Grujic and those again are people that Dr. Bosanac says were at the

17 hospital, but are not on the large list as wounded. So you have one

18 that's wounded, one that's not.

19 The third category that Your Honour has --

20 JUDGE PARKER: 97 in the first category. And in the second?

21 MR. MOORE: I think it's 94. I'll just check, if I may. There

22 are 96 victims identified at Ovcara that are on the hospital list. 92 of

23 those were identified at Ovcara that are not on the hospital list. Then

24 with regard to the second list that I have from Dr. Bosanac, there are 94.

25 So with regard to the ones that are not on the wounded list, there are 94.

Page 7048

1 With regard to the first, I believe there are 97. And then with regard to

2 the third list and the one that Your Honour has referred to, these are 45

3 people that are recorded as being present, wounded or not, but they are

4 still missing. And 34 of those are in the indictment.

5 So it's rather complicated and I'm sorry if I'm not making it

6 clear, but with regard to the -- the way it has been done is that there

7 has been a database created with people who are wounded at the Vukovar

8 Hospital, we have extracted those people, we have tried to link them with

9 the Ovcara victims, and the method of identification coming from the

10 hospital and the ones who are not on the record but nevertheless through

11 whatever means it might be identification visually, it might be through

12 knowledge, it might be through hearsay, there is a group there.

13 And then finally there is a group of people who are not -- who are

14 recorded as being present but are still missing so there is no evidence

15 of -- of death. I give the best example, which is Martin Dosen. Martin

16 Dosen, there is evidence clearly that he was at the hospital, there is

17 evidence of behaviour at the JNA barracks. He is on the indictment as

18 being a victim, but his remains have been never discovered. So there is

19 no evidence actually that -- that he was killed. But we will obviously

20 submit that the inference is that he was. But that's in for example that

21 third category.

22 So what I want to do, with the Court's leave, and I'm sorry to

23 take a little bit of time is to call Dr. Bosanac to explain the

24 methodology of compiling the names, how it -- the list was created, then

25 move on to the large list that she brought last week, and then there is

Page 7049

1 the subsidiary point of the documents, two documents that she has to be

2 cross-examined on.

3 I tried to bring it down into as tight a piece of evidence as I

4 can.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore. So are you ready to recall

6 the witness?

7 MR. MOORE: Well, I'm ready to start and I hope that everything

8 will be intelligible.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry, Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wouldn't like the Prosecutor to

11 start examining the witness before we explain our position concerning

12 these documents. On behalf of our Defence team and I believe my other

13 colleagues support me as well, I would like to say two things. I believe

14 that the Chamber should be familiar with these two issues. As to how we

15 are going to cross-examine the witness concerning these documents. In

16 relation to the first document mentioned by Mr. Moore, the database in the

17 blue folder that Mrs. Bosanac is to give us some explanation about, I have

18 to tell you the following: We received, I believe, binder 78, from the

19 Prosecution on the 13th of December, 2005. We received the document, or

20 that is to say the lists that we have now before us, but without a single

21 name entered into it. It was only five minutes ago, just before the

22 Chamber entered the courtroom, that we received the document with the

23 names of certain persons. We were unable to go through it physically.

24 Before that we had a document without a single name. This created certain

25 problems for us concerning the cross-examination of the witness on this

Page 7050

1 document. What Mr. Moore said now, and what in my view represents

2 something that can be a starting point for all of us in this courtroom, is

3 this: If this document is a database, if this reflects the data sent from

4 the Vukovar Hospital to the Ministry of Health in Zagreb, then it is

5 necessary for the Defence to be given the documents based on which this

6 database was created. Not a single document from the Ministry of Health

7 or from Dr. Bosanac was received by us in order to explain how the

8 database was created. Therefore, how can we be expected to cross-examine

9 the witness when we do not know how this document was compiled?

10 Another issue that concerns me even more is the second document.

11 Document containing 97 names. And I will explain why it concerns me.

12 When I cross-examined Mrs. Bosanac on the 31st of October she said then

13 for the first time that she had with her the document containing the names

14 of 97 wound persons, as she described them, from the Vukovar Hospital.

15 When Mr. Moore, on page 892, conducted redirect examination, this is what

16 was recorded in the transcript. I will read this out now. [In English]

17 Page 892, 31st of October, line 19:

18 Mr. Moore: "You were asked by my learned friend Mr. Lukic about

19 various list and numbers and you replied that you had a list of 97 people

20 who were registered and wounded and subsequently killed in Ovcara. Do you

21 still have that list, or do you have that list with you now?"

22 Answer: "I still have it."

23 Question: "Do you have it in court with you?"

24 Answer: "Yes."

25 [Interpretation] Mr. Moore said to us on Thursday that he received

Page 7051

1 the document from Mrs. Bosanac when she came back here again. We found

2 these documents in our lockers on Friday when we came to the Tribunal.

3 Something that was said by Mrs. Bosanac three months ago was given to us

4 three days ago. It wouldn't be too unusual, but once my colleagues and I

5 went through these -- through this document we realised that certain data

6 had been entered into the document that can be of great relevance, both

7 for the Prosecution and the Defence.

8 Status of the persons is mentioned in these documents. Then there

9 is a general description of injuries. And then in relation to the other

10 lists containing 94 persons who were not wounded, it also defined their

11 status as combatants. Now, after we have heard all Croatian witnesses,

12 members of the ZNG and hospital staff, we are now being given this

13 document when we no longer have the opportunity to examine them about

14 those who were admitted into the hospital or those who were not wounded

15 but came to the hospital nevertheless, those 18 -- on the 18th. This is

16 very important for the Defence case, namely the status that the persons

17 had on the 20th in the morning when they were taken to the barracks.

18 Now we have no one to ask anyone, we have no one to examine on the

19 status of certain persons and we could have been given this information

20 back on the 31st of October, or the 1st of November, because this is what

21 the witness said in the courtroom. Let me give you an example. Polovina

22 Branimir is mentioned. He is the late husband of witness Zvezdana

23 Polovina, and in this document it says he was a defender. We did not have

24 this information when we cross-examined Mrs. Polovina. We only have his

25 evidence and what she said about him working for Radio Vukovar.

Page 7052

1 Therefore we are now taken aback by this situation. We found

2 ourselves in a very complicated situation because we not only have to

3 cross-examine Mrs. Bosanac on this issue, but we are also unable to

4 examine a large number of witnesses who could have told us relevant

5 information about the status of these persons. Perhaps I took too long to

6 explain this, and perhaps I wasn't too clear, but this is a very important

7 issue for our Defence. If you need us to clarify this further, we are

8 ready to do so. I just wanted to make you aware of this before

9 Mrs. Bosanac entered the courtroom.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, what is it that you propose?

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I am now taken by surprise by your

12 question. I should have expected it though. Let me suggest the

13 following: We can examine Mrs. Bosanac about these documents and then we

14 can ask the Prosecution to provide the source that was used to compile

15 this document reflecting the information that was accident from the

16 hospital to the Ministry of Health. As for the document containing 97

17 names, where there is some description of injuries, we need to verify this

18 information and for that we need the assistance of our experts. And

19 should we find something that is important for the remaining 94 persons,

20 then we would perhaps ask the courtroom to bring back some witnesses. We

21 do not wish to take this course of action though. I believe that this

22 should have been provided to us at a much earlier stage when we still had

23 the chance to examine witnesses on these issues.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

25 Mr. Moore.

Page 7053

1 MR. MOORE: We provided to my learned friend the list in CD form

2 with the names redacted. That was three and a half months ago. Within

3 the list there are the actual specified occupations. Whether it's ZNG,

4 whether they're civilians. So my learned friends have got that material

5 and have had it since December. If there is concern about a particular

6 witness, for my part I have never been asked whether there was any

7 document in support of it. All I can say is that in relation to this

8 document, which I have compiled over the weekend because of the arrival of

9 the new document, the names have been inserted to try and help all

10 parties. The status can be established by, I'm quite sure, admission. If

11 my learned friends want me to admit that somebody is a member of the ZNG

12 or that he's a member of the civil defence, and it's shown on the hospital

13 register, then I will do so. I have no problems about that at all.

14 The only concern that I have ever had, and it was communicated by

15 Dr. Bosanac, was that she had been given that material through medical

16 confidentiality, and she instructed me, or OTP that she did not want the

17 names and did not wish to release the names of people who were living and

18 perhaps were on this list as members of the ZNG. Now, if my learned

19 friend wishes that fact to be revealed, then he can make an application to

20 the Court for that redaction to be removed. But as matters stand, we are

21 caught in the middle. This is the hospital saying this is confidential

22 material, and we do not wish it to be disclosed. If they want it

23 disclosed, they can make an application for it to be disclosed. That is

24 the position.

25 And with regard to the new material suddenly appearing, this

Page 7054

1 material is almost the same as the material that came on Thursday. The

2 material that came on Thursday is almost like a bibliography, which has

3 got sources, three or four sources. Whether the Court paid considerable

4 attention to it is a matter for the Court, but it may not be of tremendous

5 assistance to the Court but nevertheless it has been served on me and I

6 have served it to the Defence. So that is all we have done.

7 So if my learned friend says they wanted to cross-examine about

8 such and such a person being a member of the ZNG if he mentions this name,

9 it is on this list, I will admit it.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore another matter raised as I understood it,

11 by Mr. Lukic, is the source documents for the preparation in Zagreb of

12 this list. In other words, what was transmitted from the hospital. Have

13 they been discovered or disclosed.

14 MR. MOORE: The source documents, if I may put it this way: There

15 are really two sources. The initial source, as far as I understand it,

16 comes from the hospital. And the records of the hospital were destroyed

17 or should I say taken away, either the 20th or the 21st of November.

18 There is no documentary source material in the presence -- or under the

19 control of the OTP. My understanding is that Dr. Bosanac will say that

20 she sent the material on a day-by-day basis to Zagreb for the compilation

21 of list and she then subsequently got back the various names and the

22 details that she had provided, but back in a form that is -- the Court has

23 already seen.

24 And, as I say, it is in this particular form, the way it came

25 back. And this is exactly what the Defence have had since December. So

Page 7055

1 if there was so much concern, I'm rather surprised there hasn't been an

2 application before now.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

4 Now, Mr. Lukic, where does that put you and other Defence counsel?

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question you asked

6 Mr. Moore was the right one. And that is the essence of the entire

7 matter. Even while cross-examining Ms. Bosanac I asked her, the reports

8 that you kept sending to Zagreb on a daily basis, did you see those only

9 after you had arrived in Zagreb and she said, some yes and some no. This

10 is the basic issue around which everything revolved. What was the

11 table containing this information based on. We can proceed from there.

12 If Ms. Bosanac is concerned about the secrecy of these documents, I don't

13 think that should be too difficult to deal with. We can go into closed

14 session. We can tender them under seal. But it is very difficult for us

15 to know what the source is for these lists. It's what I believe she had

16 been sending up until the 6th of November by e-mail, but then she

17 continued up until the 17th of November on a daily basis, these reports.

18 And we haven't seen a single one in the courtroom. And I don't suppose

19 that the OTP have either. I think it would be necessary to have these,

20 because this is the only possible foundation for our cross-examination

21 that I am able to imagine.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, I don't understand it to be advanced

23 that there is any secrecy issue. The professional confidentiality issue

24 is raised in respect of individual names. If that is an issue for any

25 particular person, I would take it Defence counsel are able to refer that

Page 7056

1 to Mr. Moore, and he can tell you one that is in these lists. Is that --

2 is there a problem with that that anybody sees?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There is not a problem when speaking

4 about specific persons. But what is of paramount importance to us is to

5 see the source on which this document was based. As for the reports, we

6 realise that any medical files are confidential and secret, if you like.

7 I remember that being the case the last time we discussed these documents,

8 specifically with Ms. Dosen. But it's very difficult for us to verify the

9 authenticity of this information if we don't know where it came from.

10 We've seen all the appeals by Ms. Bosanac about the number of patients. I

11 assume that this was more or less the substance of her daily reports as

12 well. Maybe the names are not there at all. Maybe what is there is just

13 the figures and the descriptions of their injuries. I don't think

14 Mr. Moore knows either. But then I am entitled to ask myself and everyone

15 else, what the purpose is, potentially, of our cross-examination, since we

16 don't know the very first thing, and that is what this document was based

17 on.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

19 MR. MOORE: Well, we haven't heard Dr. Bosanac, but Dr. Bosanac, I

20 will ask her exactly the procedure for registration, what she then did

21 with that -- that information, where it went.

22 JUDGE PARKER: The issue is the documents that were transmitted by

23 one means or another to Zagreb.

24 MR. MOORE: Yes.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Are they available or not?

Page 7057

1 MR. MOORE: I don't have them. I've never seen them.

2 JUDGE PARKER: That doesn't answer the question.

3 MR. MOORE: No, it doesn't, but I can't answer the question, I can

4 only answer that which I know, and that is I haven't seen them. I can

5 certainly make inquiries if the Court would wish me to do so. In any

6 event, and I do accept that, because it obviously goes to the weight

7 reliability of the document, I understand that. But nevertheless it does

8 not preclude the doctor from giving evidence, in my submission, about

9 seeing the various names in this particular document, and whether it

10 accords with her recollection. I'm not saying she remembers 1.000

11 patients, that would be ridiculous, but whether it accords with her

12 recollection of certain individuals, what the diagnosis was and the dates.

13 JUDGE PARKER: There is no issue at the moment of admissibility.

14 The issue is -- you say it goes to weight. It also goes to fairness of

15 trial.

16 MR. MOORE: Yes.

17 JUDGE PARKER: And the question that is exercising the Chamber is

18 whether it's convenient to proceed with the doctor's evidence before these

19 documents, if they exist are provided. Because if cross-examination is

20 going to focus on them, they need to be available and study -- be studied

21 before cross-examination occurred. Now, if they're not available, they

22 don't exist, we have a different lot of issues. And weight is the centre

23 of that. But while we're looking at fairness of trial --

24 MR. MOORE: Yes.

25 JUDGE PARKER: -- if these are produced from source documents, the

Page 7058

1 issue is whether they are available or not, and whether the trial can

2 proceed fairly with them not being made available to the Defence. Do you

3 see that?

4 MR. MOORE: I do. Might I submit it's really a two-part question.

5 The first part is, can Dr. Bosanac give evidence fairly and appropriately

6 of the method of collation of the material and the transmission of the

7 material to Zagreb. Part B of that part is when the documentation comes

8 back from Zagreb, whether she independently is able to confirm whether

9 those names and details correspond with her recollection of what she sent

10 off. That's the first part.

11 The second part is -- relates to how the material was treated and

12 compiled in Zagreb. I have the answer in relation to part one; I do not

13 have the answer in relation to part two. And I would merely submit, and

14 beg the question, how can Dr. Bosanac be cross-examined on the collation

15 of the Zagreb material if she played no part in it. So therefore I think

16 it would be fair for her to give evidence on the first part, namely the

17 registration and transmission of the material, what she knows about, and

18 then quite simply the second part can be dealt with, if needs be, either

19 by a new witness, or the Court to say quite simply, we have -- move on in

20 time, I have heard Dr. Bosanac's evidence; however, there is a missing

21 people, namely the collation of the Zagreb -- or how it was done in

22 Zagreb, and therefore we are not satisfied with the reliability of the

23 evidence and it shouldn't be considered. But these are two parts. And

24 Bosanac could not be cross-examined logically and sensibly on what

25 happened in Zagreb.

Page 7059

1 JUDGE PARKER: She could be cross-examined on the content of what

2 she transmitted --

3 MR. MOORE: Certainly.

4 JUDGE PARKER: -- as revealed by the original documents. And what

5 appears this these secondary documents, if they differ. The question is

6 whether they differ.

7 MR. MOORE: Dr. Bosanac can be cross-examined, clearly, about how

8 the document -- sorry. How witnesses or how persons coming to the

9 hospital, how they were registered, what sort of details were put in.

10 Because for example, there may be various hallmarks of material which

11 would then and could be used by the Court to establish whether the Zagreb

12 collation was accurate or not. But Bosanac can be cross-examined on what

13 happened in relation to the Vukovar Hospital and Bosanac can be

14 cross-examined if needs be about what happened to the original source

15 documents. There is nothing, in my submission, to stop that. But accept

16 entirely what my learned friend says about the Zagreb link, and she cannot

17 be cross-examined about that, because there is nothing she can add about

18 it.

19 JUDGE PARKER: You have repeated your earlier submission, I won't

20 bother repeating my reply comment to you, Mr. Moore.

21 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. May I deal with the second

22 document, if it helps? The large document.


24 MR. MOORE: Again, that document that was brought last week, my

25 understanding is that the source of the document, the source material, is

Page 7060

1 various. It can be, for example, the widows of Vukovar or some interested

2 group. So it may well be the Court would think it is not a particularly

3 helpful document. It does not go to Zagreb, although I think Zagreb may

4 play a part in it. But again, Dr. Bosanac can be cross-examined on the

5 creation of that material, but cannot be cross-examined in relation to

6 other material of which she is unaware.

7 JUDGE PARKER: One further question. Are you saying that

8 Dr. Bosanac will be able to give evidence that the material she

9 transmitted to Zagreb did not return to the hospital, but what returned

10 was documents in the form that you have there and have been disclosed to

11 the Defence?

12 MR. MOORE: Yes.

13 JUDGE PARKER: And that that occurred in all cases that are to be

14 in the documents that are exhibited?

15 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour forgive me one moment? I missed

16 something.

17 Yes, I am.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Moore.

19 Anything further, Mr. Lukic? I take it you are speaking for all

20 three Defence teams? Yes.

21 Yes, Mr. Borovic.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Just to

23 assist about the accompanying documents in relation to this last document.

24 I think the Chamber would probably be very interested in seeing all these

25 other documents or medical documents, or how these persons were diagnosed,

Page 7061

1 in what way. If we keep in mind the fact that some were shamming wounds,

2 a lot of questions can be asked about how they were diagnosed. And how is

3 that consistent with some of the testimony that we heard in this case?

4 What my learned friend, Mr. Lukic, said about the documents that were sent

5 to Zagreb, I believe the same applies to the medical files which should

6 perhaps have been used to corroborate this other document. Thank you.

7 JUDGE PARKER: The problem with that, Mr. Borovic, is the evidence

8 that all the medical files do not now exist. They were removed from the

9 hospital by the Yugoslav army.

10 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not wish to argue

11 with you. Some were removed and some were perhaps not. I'm sure that

12 many of the documents were kept by the patients themselves. It also

13 remains to check the authenticity of all the wounds in relation to all the

14 persons whose names are on the list. These are facts to be verified.

15 Thank you.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

17 Mr. Vasic.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour. I

19 fully agree with everything that my learned friends have been saying. But

20 there are two issues that I would like to draw the Chamber's attention to,

21 which I think are important. Firstly, if we look at the blue file at the

22 reports, that have kindly been served on us by my learned friend, it is

23 obvious that the diagnosis is there for each of the patients. It is

24 understandable for the Defence to ask questions about how these were

25 obtained if Croatia's health ministry had no access to any medical files.

Page 7062

1 That is precisely why we would like to know more about the source

2 documents based on which Croatia's health ministry compiled an overview

3 like this, or a list like this. Providing the exact diagnosis in relation

4 to each and every patient on the list, or at least that's what they came.

5 These reports must exist somewhere. Perhaps the witness, Dr. Bosanac,

6 could help us out with this and disclose the whereabouts of these

7 documents if by any chance she knows.

8 Secondly, I would like to comment on what my learned friend has

9 mentioned. The fact that the Defence were informed of these documents in

10 the blue file back in December. What I would like to point out is that we

11 did indeed receive a CD containing these documents back in December, but

12 as my learned friend, Mr. Lukic, said, without a single name. Which begs

13 the question, what could the Defence possibly have checked for

14 authenticity if we didn't know who the persons were to begin with? This

15 is just useless information without the names of these persons. We are

16 supposed to be checking whether these persons were really wounded, whether

17 these persons were in the hospital on the 18th, 19th or 20th of November.

18 Whether these persons' ailments really was consistent with their

19 respective diagnoses stated here. And finally whether these persons were

20 taken away from the hospital and taken to Ovcara. We have not been able

21 to resolve any of these important questions because we didn't have a

22 single name to go on.

23 I'm slightly surprised by the concern expressed by my learned

24 friend in relation to the confidential nature of these documents, at least

25 as they relate to people who are still alive. We, the Defence teams, have

Page 7063

1 no intention on insisting on such documents, because they are no part of

2 the indictment, but we do have the right to insist to be given information

3 in relation to all those people whose names are in the annex to our

4 indictment and who the OTP claims were taken away from the Vukovar

5 Hospital.

6 In actual fact, only now, only today, are we truly in a position

7 to tackle these issues and to verify this information; only now do we have

8 the names. As concerns the documents in relation to the 97 persons, which

9 my learned friend has mentioned, there is one thing I would like to say.

10 I think these documents too, were obtained from the medical headquarters

11 of Croatia's health ministry, at least that's what the heading suggests.

12 Which is to say these documents too were derived from earlier documents

13 which should exist somewhere and which had to come from the Vukovar

14 Hospital at some point. Each and every person mentioned in this report

15 has a diagnosis, an abbreviated one, but different from the one specified

16 in the so-called blue file. At least that's what a cursory glance seems

17 to suggest. In the sense that the one in the blue file is either not as

18 comprehensive or not as accurate, therefore I believe what has been

19 pointed out by my learned friend, Mr. Lukic, as being a problem that the

20 Defence has encountered in terms of obligations under Article 21, item 4

21 of the Statute, the fact is that we must be given a chance to study the

22 documents on which the reports that my learned friend has mentioned are

23 based.

24 It is true that we did not have an opportunity to cross-examine

25 many of the witnesses on these individuals whose names are mentioned here,

Page 7064

1 but what that means is that the Defence should have a chance to deal with

2 all the names, and to try and at least check the essentials. Were these

3 persons wounded persons, were these persons at the hospital at the time,

4 and were they, in fact, taken away from the hospital at the time relevant

5 to what we are talking about. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, do I understand from you that you now

7 have the names of all those who were in these lists who are also in the

8 indictment?

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unfortunately I can't

10 provide a perfectly accurate answer. We were just given these documents

11 today and we have not had a chance to check any of it. What a cursory

12 glance would reveal is that some names are mentioned, as my learned friend

13 from the OTP has said. Some names on the indictment are there, but I am

14 unable to tell you at this point in time that all of the names are there.

15 For the simple reason that the Defence teams have not had a chance to go

16 through all these documents.

17 JUDGE PARKER: The further question I have for you, Mr. Vasic, is

18 the Chamber correct in understanding that there has been no application to

19 lift redactions on the information that you were provided in December, and

20 there has been no motion about the disclosure of the documents that were

21 sent to Zagreb?

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind the

23 results of Mrs. Bosanac's examination-in-chief and cross-examination which

24 occurred in October and November, as my learned friend Mr. Lukic has

25 mentioned, and bearing in mind the fact that my learned friend Mr. Moore

Page 7065

1 said at the time that he was in possession of documents, but there was a

2 confidentiality issue attached to these documents, and he didn't know at

3 the time in what way and to what extent he would be using these

4 documents. Given all of that, I don't think the Defence was in a position

5 to foresee that these documents would be used in the way that they are

6 being used now. At any rate, if under Rule 66(A)(ii), that was the

7 intention of OTP, a full list of names and documents bearing all the names

8 should have been served on the Defence. I think that much is certain.

9 There was no way for us to know whether certain persons from the list, the

10 list that we were given on a CD, are alive or dead. Missing or not

11 missing, because that is just not information included in this list. I

12 think it was the duty of the OTP, if they were ever going to use the

13 document in this way, to inform the Defence of its substance in a timely

14 manner. And to specify which persons were missing and which person where

15 is not, as well as to provide their names so that we would have a chance

16 to check all this information in a timely manner.

17 Just in order to answer your question, the Defence have not asked

18 the OTP to lift the secretly ruling for -- in relation to some of the

19 names for this very reason. We simply didn't know who the people were.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Surely, Mr. Vasic, instead of focusing on whether

21 there had been a full disclosure to you, there having been a redacted

22 disclosure, if you were pursuing the question of the medical condition and

23 genuineness of the alleged injuries of those named in the indictment who

24 were contained in the information disclosed to you, and you found that you

25 couldn't examine that issue because the names were redacted, that it would

Page 7066

1 have been self-evident that you should have got an order to lift the

2 redactions so that you could pursue the question which each counsel for

3 the Defence now stresses to us is so important. How genuine were these

4 injuries, what were they, how reliably were they diagnosed, et cetera, in

5 respect of those who are alleged in the indictment to have been killed.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the document that we were

7 given contained no information to show the Defence who the persons were.

8 Or indeed that those were the same persons as those mentioned in the annex

9 to the indictment. Not even generally speaking.

10 Another thing that was being discussed at the time was the

11 possibility of Mr. Moore using this document. Let me remind you this is

12 not an original hospital document. This is a collection compiled by the

13 health ministry. Therefore, back in December there was no way we could

14 ever imagine that this document would be used by the OTP as a document

15 that would again resurface during the additional examination of

16 Dr. Bosanac. However, I think the onus is on the OTP to inform the

17 Defence of all these details in a timely manner, especially in view of the

18 fact that we are dealing here with a document that is not an original

19 document. This is something that was compiled based on a number of other

20 documents.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

22 Is there anything further, Mr. Moore?

23 MR. MOORE: Just very briefly, yes. In December Dr. Bosanac, it

24 was -- there was an agreement that she was to be recalled to be

25 cross-examined on this document. She wasn't being recalled because of two

Page 7067

1 later documents that were discovered, she was being recalled because of

2 this document itself. That was the first point. So it's not right for my

3 learned friends -- the transcript can be checked in relation to that.

4 JUDGE PARKER: I have it here, Mr. Moore.

5 MR. MOORE: Well, I hope I'm right.


7 MR. MOORE: Well, thank you very much. And the second point is

8 this: That this case is -- deals principally with the removal of persons

9 from the hospital, some of whom were injured. That was in -- in the

10 opening and it's in the evidence. Now, what on earth did my learned

11 friends think that the purpose of the document was for, if not to

12 demonstrate that some of the people who were subsequently exhumed at

13 Ovcara came from the hospital and were undergoing medical treatment?

14 And, thirdly, although Your Honour has dealt with it, we have

15 never had any application to say that the Defence were disadvantaged

16 because they don't have access to the names. So those are my submissions.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I think I can just see you, Mr. Lukic. I think

18 we've done submissions just about to their end. But, yes, you've got one

19 last quick say.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll be very brief, Your Honour. Let

21 me just repeat this: The first document from the blue file, let me say,

22 was served on us in December. It was then that Mr. Moore told us that he

23 was unable at the time to give us the names for reasons of

24 confidentiality. That was the reason that we never decided to even try to

25 ascertain the identity of the persons from that list. What we did expect

Page 7068

1 Mr. Moore to do, and this is clear if you look at the transcript dated the

2 31st of October, was to give us the sources that Dr. Bosanac used for this

3 report. I have a suspicion you are about to tell me that I'm wrong, but

4 based on the 31st of October and the relevant transcript, I was expecting

5 that Dr. Bosanac would be examined on those documents, and we wanted to

6 examine her on Rule 68 documents, at least that was my reading of the 31st

7 of October transcript. And if my reading of the transcript was erroneous,

8 I am sure you are about to tell me, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Did you mean October? I'm looking at a

10 transcript, of the 31st of January this year.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was looking at the transcript dated

12 the 31st of October when we concluded the examination of Mrs. Bosanac, and

13 when the problem with this document arose. That was the transcript that I

14 looked at, and not the one that you just mentioned.

15 My case manager is now telling me that on the 24th of January we

16 discussed about the documents disclosed pursuant to Rule 68, and it was

17 then that we submitted a motion to have Dr. Bosanac recalled, and I guess

18 that your decision then pertained to this request put it on the 24th.

19 JUDGE PARKER: That's it. 31st of January.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, there seem to be questions about --

22 unresolved about the availability today of the documents transmitted from

23 the hospital to Zagreb upon which at least the most critical component of

24 these -- your blue folder --

25 MR. MOORE: Yes.

Page 7069

1 JUDGE PARKER: -- is based.

2 MR. MOORE: Yes.

3 JUDGE PARKER: For the purposes of cross-examination, if they are

4 available, those source documents, in respect of the persons alleged in

5 the indictment now to be dead it would seem that they should be made

6 available to the Defence.

7 MR. MOORE: Yes.

8 JUDGE PARKER: If there is uncertainty in your mind about their

9 availability which can be resolved by getting instructions from

10 Dr. Bosanac, we could adjourn now to enable you to get those instructions

11 during the break. If there is any other issue relating to these documents

12 about which you could receive further information from Dr. Bosanac before

13 her evidence commences --

14 MR. MOORE: Yes.

15 JUDGE PARKER: -- that again could be dealt with in an adjournment

16 now.

17 MR. MOORE: Yes.

18 JUDGE PARKER: If you believe you are adequately informed on those

19 matters and want to proceed with her evidence in chief now, that can

20 occur. Although of course there will need to be a break in a relatively

21 short time. Whether or not at the end of her evidence, if it is your

22 decision to proceed with her now, that there is need for some adjournment

23 to allow the Defence to cope with this new information, then that will be

24 an issue that would have to be dealt with at the end of the evidence in

25 chief. At the moment there is too little known for us to reach any final

Page 7070

1 decision about it. So, essentially her -- the evidence of the doctor can

2 proceed now, her evidence in chief. If you want to take further

3 instructions from her before commencing her evidence, we would allow an

4 adjournment to enable to you do that. The other course is whether you

5 want to simply defer Dr. Bosanac altogether rather than have the prospect

6 of her giving evidence in yet two further bites rather than one. We could

7 consider that.

8 MR. MOORE: Well, might I accept the Court's invitation to have

9 the adjournment now? I will speak to Dr. Bosanac, because obviously there

10 are two questions: One, about her state of knowledge, and two, about her

11 availability. So if I can be permitted to speak to her, as you have

12 requested, I will do so.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. And I trust the Defence will understand from

14 that that the doctor well now be called to give her evidence in chief. At

15 the end of her evidence in chief, if there are still significant issues of

16 difficulty, that can be heard again and the matter ruled upon.

17 Very well. Unfortunately then we must now adjourn. Would 20

18 minutes be enough, Mr. Moore, or do you want 30 minutes?

19 MR. MOORE: No, I would think 20 minutes would be adequate.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

24 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I have been able to speak to Dr. Bosanac.

25 Might I submit or make a suggestion? Dr. Bosanac, when I inquired about

Page 7071

1 the source material, basically repeat that had which I have already said

2 to the Court, and I'm not going to repeat. However, she believes that the

3 original source material may be held in Zagreb. For my part, the reason

4 that she thinks that is if a person for example has hurt their leg, she

5 had an example of that recently, that they would come and then contact

6 Zagreb, and Zagreb would confirm that that person was at the Vukovar

7 Hospital and had a damaged leg, and I presume a pension. But that is

8 capable, that decision is capable of coming from the -- the collated

9 information as much as the original source material. What I would submit

10 as an appropriate course would be as follows: For -- we are in court

11 tomorrow afternoon at 2.15. For Dr. Bosanac at 9.00 tomorrow morning to

12 contact Zagreb. She knows the departments and she knows the people who

13 allegedly deal with this material and would be able to ascertain quicker

14 than any investigator would whether in actual fact the material is

15 available, or whether it is in collated form. Now, if Dr. Bosanac starts

16 her evidence in chief, which I am prepared to start, it creates somewhat

17 of a difficulty in the sense that she is a witness giving evidence and I

18 am not able to talk to her really in that she would be in the middle of

19 giving evidence and I would be asking discussions with her. If she

20 doesn't start then I can sit with her and try and ascertain actually what

21 is required and what is needed.

22 And if the material is not therefore available, then we know

23 exactly where we stand. We do have Dr. Njavro, and we can proceed with

24 Dr. Njavro, although Dr. Bosanac herself says that she would not like to

25 come back a third time for obvious reasons. But the situation is we can

Page 7072

1 proceed with Dr. Njavro, if things aren't ready to proceed. And we would

2 be able to contact the office of OTP in Zagreb to try and locate, or bring

3 the documents to The Hague, if needs be.

4 JUDGE PARKER: So your proposal is that we should adjourn today?

5 MR. MOORE: Yes, it is.

6 JUDGE PARKER: And resume tomorrow at 2.15.

7 MR. MOORE: Yes, or earlier if the Court want. And I will deal

8 with Dr. Njavro [sic] tomorrow morning and try and find out exactly

9 whether this source material is available or whether it is now being put

10 into collated form, and maybe I can ascertain who did and perhaps he can

11 call evidence to it.

12 JUDGE PARKER: You probably meant Dr. Bosanac. Not Njavro.

13 MR. MOORE: Sorry, yes.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Very well.

15 MR. MOORE: That's my submission, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: I think, in view of the significance of this issue

17 for the Defence, that is the appropriate course to take, regrettably.

18 So I am afraid we must adjourn now to resume tomorrow at 2.15

19 we're in, I believe, number 1 court tomorrow, not this court.

20 We will now adjourn.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.00 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of April,

23 2006, at 2.15 p.m.