Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8514

1 Wednesday, 10 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. The affirmation you made at the

7 beginning of the evidence still applies. And I think Mr. Lukic is to

8 continue.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before we continue,

12 may I be allowed to ask a question, please?


14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the impression that when

15 Mr. Borovic was cross-examining me yesterday an error was made. I was

16 wondering if that part of the cross-examination could be gone through and

17 the error perhaps corrected. I could explain what it's about.

18 JUDGE PARKER: If you would, please, explain.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At one point in time I was asked

20 about the distance between Sremska Mitrovica and Negoslavci. I'm talking

21 about that portion of the cross-examination. A calculation was made, as

22 to how much time it would take to drive from Mitrovica to Negoslavci and

23 from Negoslavci to Ovcara, and the arrival was set at about 1730 hours.

24 This was linked to a time entry in the notebook saying that the military

25 police were withdrawn at 2230 hours.

Page 8515

1 Both these pieces of information are actually accurate, it's just

2 that the dates don't tally. The first piece of information could have

3 applied in relation to the 19th, but that has no bearing to the actual

4 time recorded in relation to the 20th. I think these two bits of

5 information were actually merged into a single story, and that's not where

6 they belong.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much for that.

8 What I propose, Mr. Borovic, is that at the end of Mr. Lukic's

9 cross-examination, I would allow you, if you wished, to explore that

10 matter further. And if not, perhaps Mr. Moore will. Yes. Is that

11 suitable?

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I think I may be better placed than

13 Mr. Moore to do that. Thank you.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Lukic.

15 I'm sure both of you, Mr. Borovic, will have a go at it.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

18 Q. Good morning, Witness. We shall now continue.

19 Can I have the usher's assistance, please. I would like to give

20 the witness this set of documents. These are documents that we shall be

21 using.

22 Let us now move to what happened in Vukovar. Based on your

23 notebook, what I saw in your notebook, and also based on what I saw in the

24 operations diary, you arrived on the 9th of November, 1991. It was on

25 the 8th you were given your marching orders, that's what your notebook

Page 8516

1 says.

2 A. You mean in Negoslavci. That's strikes me as possible.

3 Q. It's an exhibit, so we'll be using that.

4 When you arrived at the front line, your company had all its

5 regular tasks, providing security for the commander, for the command post,

6 the check-point in Negoslavci, so what I would like to ask you: Were

7 there any extraordinary or out of the ordinary tasks until the time you

8 were called to Ovcara, or, rather, did the military police company take

9 part in combat operations?

10 A. I can only tell you about the elements who were with me.

11 Q. This is the element that arrived in Negoslavci, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Both your answers were yes?

14 A. Yes.

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. There's something that is a bit unclear in the interpretation.

18 Those elements of the unit who came with you to Negoslavci were the ones

19 going about their regular tasks.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And were not involved in the fighting?

22 A. No, they weren't.

23 Q. Nor was any part of that unit taken away and assigned to another

24 unit for other tasks. They kept going about their regular duties at the

25 brigade command?

Page 8517

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I believe you have in front of you Exhibit 371. We could perhaps

3 display it on our screens. This is the operations log of the

4 80th Brigade. The first page of the operations log, the entry in relation

5 to the 9th of November at 0900 hours. Could that please be shown,

6 Exhibit 371, page 1. You see this, sir, don't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you please just comment briefly on the entry in relation to

9 the 9th of November, 1991, 0900 hours. CVP, what does it say down there?

10 I suppose that's in reference to your unit, that's as long as you can

11 actually read the handwriting, or do you want me --

12 A. CVP, this second platoon, is that it?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Let me try to amplify this. "Busy securing the brigade command

15 post. Securing the reception at the command post and protecting the

16 brigade commander."

17 Q. That tallies with what you said were the tasks of your unit upon

18 its arrival at Negoslavci, right?

19 A. Yes, that was the first task that was mandatory.

20 Q. As we go through this operations log, as I've noticed several

21 different points, when you came there, you submitted daily reports. This

22 is reflected in the entry for the 14th and the 15th of November, 1700

23 hours. You submitting daily reports. Were these oral or written, the

24 ones you submitted to the brigade commander, I mean?

25 A. Oral.

Page 8518

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, written reports.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Were these submitted on a daily basis?

4 A. It would usually be late in the day or early in the morning that I

5 would submit a written report, and I did any other reporting in the course

6 of the day, whenever that was necessary.

7 Q. Commander Vojinovic?

8 A. If the commander wasn't there, then I would usually report to the

9 duty operations officer.

10 Q. Would I be wrong in saying that your military police company came

11 to the front well-rested, they only arrived on the 9th of November, and

12 the other units had been there for over two months, right?

13 A. I guess you could put it that way. I tend to agree with you on

14 this one.

15 Q. It was mostly made up of reserve police officers, I mean military

16 police.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could the speakers please

18 kindly try not to speak all at a time.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I'm being asked by the interpreters not to overlap. Please try to

21 keep the same pace that you did yesterday.

22 Do you remember any disciplinary problems in your unit in terms of

23 carrying out assignments?

24 A. I guess I could say that everything was all right.

25 Q. Reserve military policemen are soldiers who completed their

Page 8519

1 military service and who were trained to be part of military police unit.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the last part of

3 Mr. Lukic's answer [sic]. Could Mr. Lukic be asked to speak closer to the

4 microphone. Thank you.

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. In addition to this, I suppose all reserve soldiers were sent to

8 military drills, if not to drills then at least they had had some

9 experience on the ground before they were sent to Vukovar to carry out all

10 these new assignments. Would that be a fair assessment?

11 A. Well, now, I might as well agree. You're right, although it would

12 be scandalous for me to talk about everything that was going on. Those

13 were sordid details, but I think we all more or less know what went on.

14 Q. Please don't shy away from explaining everything. You are here to

15 tell the truth and we are here to establish the truth. What I want to

16 know is about those reserve officers. Were they trained properly in your

17 opinion and was there discipline in your unit? These are the key

18 questions as far as mobilisation is concerned, in all of that, we all know

19 about that, and that's not something I asked you.

20 A. I will try to answer your question. This was a newly set-up unit.

21 It was set up early in 1991. It wasn't before I came to Vukovar that I

22 actually saw some of those soldiers. Not everybody responded to each

23 call-up. One thing was certain, everything had completed their regular

24 military term, all of them were trained military police officers for

25 military police platoons. Another thing that I can confirm is there was

Page 8520

1 order, there was discipline, and they were all carrying out any

2 assignments that I gave them.

3 Q. We heard that Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic was the brigade

4 commander, and the chief of security was Captain First Class Dragi

5 Vukosavljevic. Do you know what Danilovic was doing in terms of his

6 position and rank?

7 A. He was a lieutenant-colonel by rank, and I think he was

8 Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic's deputy.

9 Q. Chief of Staff?

10 A. Yes, Chief of Staff.

11 Q. Do you know who Major Dusan Jovanovic was, does that ring a bell?

12 A. No.

13 Q. My learned friend, Mr. Vasic, asked you about Lieutenant-Colonel

14 Jeftic yesterday, right? You said his office was at the command of the

15 Kragujevac Corps. So you weren't certain if he was actually attached to

16 the corps or to the brigade. Do you know what his position was later on,

17 because you did say that you used to see him later on with General

18 Vasiljevic, but do you know if he had a position apart from his job with

19 the security organ of the corps?

20 A. No. I'm an operative officer, I work with the army. When someone

21 tells me they're an officer, they're an officer, and that's that. I don't

22 wonder about their position or rank.

23 Q. I will assume, however, that your contact with Lieutenant-Colonel

24 Jeftic as rather close. That's why I ask. You don't know, okay. Let's

25 move on.

Page 8521

1 A. No, I don't know.

2 Q. Another thing, the Kragujevac Corps of the 80th Motorised Brigade,

3 they were part of the 1st Military District; is that right?

4 A. Yes, probably.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, it's your speed of speaking which is the

6 biggest problem, I think, for the interpreter. Once you seize on a

7 thought you pour it out very quickly. And sometimes it's a long thought.

8 If you could try and slow down. Thank you.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have been known to be told that.

10 Q. In your testimony in chief you stated that the operation -- the

11 80th Brigade was within the Operations Group South, but I wanted to

12 clarify something. My learned friend, Mr. Vasic, asked you whether you

13 knew that Ovcara at the time was within the area of responsibility of the

14 80th Motorised Brigade. Your answer was, "I don't know." Mr. Borovic

15 asked you the same question, and your answer then was, "Maybe."

16 You, as the military police company commander, you probably had

17 your own zone within which you carried out your tasks. If someone wanted

18 to send you to the Vukovar Hospital, I presume you wouldn't go. That's

19 why I'm asking this: Did you know that at the time the area of

20 responsibility, including Ovcara, was the area of responsibility of the

21 80th Kragujevac Motorised Brigade, yes or no?

22 A. I was waiting for the transcript. I didn't know that at the time.

23 And yesterday when I said "maybe," the question was put in a different

24 way.

25 Q. Listening to my question now, did you know that Ovcara was within

Page 8522

1 your brigade's area of responsibility?

2 A. I've already said no.

3 Q. Please take the transcript from the Belgrade trial, page 73. I

4 believe that is page 72 of the English for my learned friends. You appear

5 as a witness. Towards the end of the page you were examined by

6 attorney-at-law Nenad Petrusic. Was Ovcara, that is the settlement,

7 within the area of responsibility of the 80th Motorised Brigade from

8 Kragujevac. Your answer was yes.

9 A. I don't see where that is.

10 Q. Page 73, further down. Let's say some 12 lines from the bottom,

11 attorney-at-law Nenad Petrusic. Have you found it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You appeared in the Belgrade court as a witness?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You testified under oath, and you know what the implications of

16 that are?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You are also testifying under oath here?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you please clarify these two different answers you provided

21 to the same question.

22 A. At even then, as now, I am somewhat confused. What do you mean by

23 the area of responsibility? Do you have in mind the place where we worked

24 and where we moved about? If that was the gist of the question, yesterday

25 and today, then that includes the field where we worked. When I

Page 8523

1 said "no," that I understood to be who was the most senior officer for

2 that area, whether that was the operations group or the motorised brigade.

3 If I call something an area of responsibility, that means that the

4 military police company was tasked to cover the entire area of the

5 80th Motorised Brigade. That's why I said yes and my answer today is yes.

6 But if you had in mind who was the most senior officer in the area, I

7 don't know. Maybe that clarifies why I responded with a yes and a no.

8 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, could I just interrupt for one moment. I

9 know it's very difficult for defendants to remain still. But I know that

10 Mr. Mrksic has been vigorously nodding his head either to agree or deny

11 when answers are given. I would be awfully grateful if that could just

12 be -- if he could just not do that. I am sympathetic to the position of

13 defendants, but sometimes it gives a wrong impression to a witness.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Mr. Mrksic, I see your acknowledgment.

15 Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was interrupted by Mr. Moore. I

17 don't know whether his reaction was necessary, given the circumstances.

18 Q. I didn't ask you about the commander for the entire sector.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, it was. Okay? Now, I would like today

20 to avoid the tension that developed yesterday, particularly between you,

21 Mr. Lukic, and Mr. Moore. So if we could just keep things a little calm.

22 Thank you.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have resolved our tensions at a

24 later stage yesterday.

25 Q. The Ovcara sector, was that within the zone of your brigade's

Page 8524

1 units?

2 A. Yes. That's how I understood the question then. And now I

3 understood it completely differently. Both yesterday and today.

4 Q. When you arrived at Negoslavci you reported to Vojnovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In your statement given to the OTP I have read something, and a

7 question wasn't asked of you concerning that. While you were at

8 Negoslavci you stated that you were assisted by the local TO units, I

9 presume at these points that were established. My question is whether you

10 had any sort of problems regarding those units.

11 A. Yes. There was a TO unit in Negoslavci. At day-time they carried

12 out their routine duties in various houses, and during the night they

13 assisted in additional guarding duties that needed to be established for

14 night-time.

15 Q. And you had no problems cooperating with them?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You have described to the OTP the command post of your brigade.

18 Did I understand correctly that you said that Mr. Sljivancanin used to

19 come there -- or, rather, that you said that he was somewhere close to

20 where your command post was?

21 A. Both. He used to come by to see the commander, and that he was in

22 the vicinity, at the other end of the street. I believe that's where he

23 used to spend the night.

24 Q. During those days when you were at Ovcara, in and in front of the

25 hangar, you didn't see Sljivancanin?

Page 8525

1 A. No.

2 Q. At the time in or around the hangar on the 18th, 19th and

3 the 20th, did you hear from anyone that Sljivancanin was coming by?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What sort of uniforms do the military policemen wear when carrying

6 out their duties? And I have in mind the relevant time in Vukovar.

7 A. In early 1991, up until the end, all the units, including the

8 military police, wore olive-drab uniforms. But the military policemen

9 could be distinguished by their white belts.

10 Q. And, therefore, your military policemen had white belts?

11 A. Yes, all of them.

12 Q. Let us now go back to the Belgrade trial on page 73 regarding this

13 topic that is of interest to me.

14 For my learned friends from the OTP, I wanted to read out a

15 portion from page 72.

16 Mr. Vezmarovic, have you found it?

17 A. I don't know what to look for.

18 Q. Four lines from the top. I will believe with the previous page to

19 give the context. You were asked by Natasa Kandic: "Were the Mitnica

20 prisoners secured by members of the military police of the 80th Motorised

21 Brigade or were there also policemen of the guards brigade there?"

22 The presiding judge: "That is members of some other units as

23 well?"

24 Your reply: "If I understood the question properly, you asked

25 me ..."

Page 8526

1 Then the judge: "The first day, the first group."

2 Your reply: "Were the first and the second group secured by only

3 the 80th Motorised Brigade? Yes."

4 Natasa Kandic, attorney-at-law, appearing on behalf of the

5 defendants: "Did your soldiers wear white belts?"

6 The judge: "The question was asked."

7 Natasa Kandic: "What about those from the guards brigade, the

8 policemen, did they wear?"

9 Your reply: "Answer, yes."

10 Natasa Kandic: "So there was no difference in the uniforms?"

11 No. Your reply was: "No, no, you should bear something in mind."

12 Then the judge's question: "Are there any differences in

13 uniforms?"

14 Your reply: "Perhaps if I can reply, that was the uniform."

15 And then the presiding judge says: "Yes, go on with your reply.

16 Were there any differences in terms of uniform between the members of your

17 unit and the members of the police of the guards brigade?"

18 I provided some comment to explain the context. And then your

19 reply: "That's what I tried to -- uniforms were the same for the entire

20 Yugoslavia at the time, if I may say so. That means in Slovenia, in

21 Croatia, in Macedonia, in Bosnia, in Montenegro, in Serbia, we all wore

22 the same uniform. Meaning all from the military police had the exact same

23 uniforms." And the remainder of your answer is not important for this

24 line of questioning.

25 This confirms what I asked you about your unit before, and I

Page 8527

1 wanted to ask you whether you abide by what you stated in the Belgrade

2 court; that is, that all of your military policemen and all of military

3 policemen in general wore white belts.

4 A. As far as I know, all policemen had white belts. But at wartime

5 they could also wear the usual belts. The standard issue.

6 Q. To move on to another topic now. Who was your immediate superior

7 in terms of command?

8 A. Commander Vojnovic and the organ of security, that being

9 Lieutenant-Colonel Jeftic and Dragi Vukosavljevic.

10 Q. In terms of the security organ, in what sense were they your

11 superior, or rather according to what rules?

12 A. In the military police my only contact was with the security

13 organs in terms of drills and the wartime tasks. That contact was a

14 superior who would issue tasks and assignments, controlled my work, and

15 apart from that person, the commander would do the same as well.

16 Q. Can you tell us what the basic rule is for all the soldiers and

17 officers of the JNA? What sort of regulations were in force, what

18 text-book?

19 A. I don't understand your question. What is the name of the

20 document, you mean? Well, what do I know.

21 Q. Do you want me to remind you?

22 A. Yes, please.

23 Q. The rules of service.

24 A. Yes, yes, of course.

25 Q. It regulates all types of relationships and structure within the

Page 8528

1 JNA.

2 A. Perhaps I may call it a rule book of sorts, yes.

3 Q. What were the basic rules of the military police at the time?

4 Were those the rules of service for the military police of the JNA?

5 A. Yes, as far as I remember.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have a

7 document, 65 ter document, I believe it will be tendered by the OTP. It

8 is 397. The rules of service of the military police from 1985. Could we

9 have page 9 on the screen for the witness, the ERN number being

10 0207-2100.

11 Q. I believe that's within the set of documents I provided.

12 A. I will look for it.

13 Q. You have it in front of you on the screen as well. I will read

14 slowly Article number 12. "The military police is commanded and

15 controlled" -- just a minute. "Control and command over a military police

16 unit is exercised by the officer of the unit or institution within whose

17 establishment the military police unit happens to be, or to which it has

18 been attached."

19 We shall move on from there, but first let me ask you about this

20 article. In your specific case, your military police unit, who was in

21 command of your military police unit, under Article 12, what's your

22 interpretation?

23 A. I think Vojnovic.

24 Q. I agree with you completely.

25 Let us now go to Article 13: "In the technical sense a military

Page 8529

1 police unit is under the control of the security officer of the military

2 unit or institution within whose establishment the unit happens to be, or

3 to which it has been attached. He makes proposals to the military unit

4 officer or to the institution for the use of military police forces and is

5 responsible for the combat readiness of the military police unit and the

6 execution of tasks. While exercising control over a military police unit,

7 the security organ officer from paragraph 1 of this item has the same

8 rights and duties as the officers in the branches and services of the

9 military unit or institution in terms of control of the various units of

10 the branches and services."

11 Under this provision of Article 13, who was the officer formally

12 in control?

13 A. As I have said before, Jeftic and Dragi Vukosavljevic.

14 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel Jeftic, given that he was physically in the

15 brigade?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If he was, in fact, attached to the corps, then it would have been

18 Dragi Vukosavljevic, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Based on what I have just read out to you, especially Article 13,

21 is it indicated anywhere that the security organ is in command of the

22 military police, even as far as technical aspects of its work were

23 concerned?

24 A. No, that is not indicated anywhere.

25 Q. So they are in charge of the technical aspects of your work, they

Page 8530

1 make proposals to the commander about special regulations without going

2 into any detail on that, but they are not in command in terms of the

3 military police, they do not command the military police?

4 A. Yes, that's what it says. Is that what you wanted to hear?

5 Because that is what it says.

6 Q. Would the chief of security have been able to issue any orders

7 without the commander's approval?

8 A. How can I be expected to know that?

9 Q. Did you receive any order from the security organ without checking

10 with your commander?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. While we're at it, the next page, paragraph 14. Paragraph 14

13 talks about the SSNO unit in charge of security, which is in charge of the

14 technical aspects of the work of the military police. Among other things,

15 it inspects the training of military policemen, makes proposals and takes

16 measures to promote its work, is involved in organising formations of the

17 military unit, and is involved in any assessments concerning the combat

18 readiness and work of the military police. What you said yesterday in

19 relation to Jeftic, does this bear any relation to Jeftic's peacetime

20 activities with your unit? If you remember. If not, not.

21 A. I don't think I quite understand your question. I'm not sure what

22 sort of an answer you're expecting. In peacetime conditions, I was only

23 in touch with the security organ, and that was the only body whose

24 assignments and orders I was carrying out. Which I continued to do in

25 wartime.

Page 8531

1 Q. Fine.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document as a

3 whole into evidence, because we will all probably be using it, the Defence

4 as well as the Prosecution.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 435.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. No problem. It's something that you had no say in, Witness. I

9 see that you have the document with you, right? The rules of service

10 governing the work of the military police?

11 A. No, these are my notes from a lecture, Lieutenant-Colonel Relja

12 Ristic [phoen]. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Vojnovic was your commander?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You obeyed his orders, you executed his orders. Based on what I

16 heard, it worked like this: Based on your testimony so far, when you

17 arrived in Negoslavci you reported to Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. On the 18th he told you to go and look for a facility that would

20 be appropriate for temporarily holding those prisoners, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. He agreed with the proposal, it didn't matter whose proposal it

23 was, but eventually he agreed that the hangar should be used for holding

24 those people, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8532

1 Q. He was the one who ordered you to clear the hangar and to get it

2 ready for the prisoners?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. He was the one who told you to wait there and meet the prisoners

5 there. That's what you said before the court in Belgrade, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could we please have Exhibit 371 placed on our screens for a

8 second.

9 This is the operations log of the 80th Brigade. The page number

10 is 0D00-0615. Could we please zoom in on the 18th of November, 1600

11 hours. Further down. I'll read this out loud. The handwriting is a bit

12 tacky, but this is what it says: "Group 1 with four trucks with about 70

13 Ustashas arrived in the detention unit. During the night another hundred

14 were brought in."

15 That's not what I'm interested in.

16 "Lieutenant-Colonel Rade Danilovic was appointed commander of the

17 camp. Most of the brigade's officers took part in the -- in setting up

18 the security regime."

19 Did you know that at 1600 hours on that day Chief of Staff

20 Lieutenant-Colonel Rade Danilovic was appointed camp commander? Did you

21 know that?

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. Did you see him there when the prisoners came?

24 A. I don't remember. He probably was there.

25 Q. Nobody told you that he was the camp commander?

Page 8533

1 A. No.

2 Q. You say that when Vojnovic introduced you to Karanfilov he said,

3 this is something you stated some days ago on the 8th of May. He said

4 Karanfilov was in charge of transporting those persons, that they would be

5 spending the night there. And that your superior officer would be

6 Karanfilov in terms of that particular security job. You stated this two

7 days ago. You remember that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. First of all, you said yesterday when you mentioned those persons

10 coming and asking questions, based on what you said two days ago, I see

11 that you said they would be spending night there?

12 A. The Mitnica group.

13 Q. Yes, yes.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the next day they would be leaving, right?

16 A. Yes, that's what I was told. That they would be spending the

17 night there and that probably the next day, at about 8.00 Karanfilov would

18 be there and then ...

19 Q. This assignment that Vojnovic gave you, when he told you about the

20 fact that you would be receiving orders for that particular operation from

21 Karanfilov, this was over the next day when you handed those persons over

22 to Karanfilov, when he took charge, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And as you said yesterday, you informed Vojnovic accordingly when

25 you were given the typewritten list when you came to him, when he told you

Page 8534

1 that that list should be taken to Mitrovica, because those people had gone

2 already?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. This new assignment was given to you by Vojnovic, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Let's go back to the 18th. What I was asking you about was the

7 next day. Mr. Vezmarovic, you're saying before this Court that your task

8 was in terms of the orders for securing those persons, that this

9 assignment was issued to you by Vojnovic at Ovcara when they arrived

10 outside the hangar; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Are you sure Vojnovic was the one who told you that?

13 A. I'm not sure about the words that were actually spoken, but what

14 happened was we talked, we were introduced, and he said that Karanfilov

15 would now be taking charge of the whole thing. I don't remember the exact

16 words spoken at the time.

17 Q. You don't remember the words, you don't remember the nitty-gritty,

18 but you are sure that the person was Vojnovic, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. This decision that your commander made, for the orders for that

21 operation, for providing security during that night to be taken from an

22 officer who was not from your unit, so this decision by your commander,

23 was this something that you entered into your notebook?

24 A. I made a note to the effect that I would be contacting Karanfilov,

25 Captain Karanfilov and where, the place where he would be.

Page 8535

1 Q. We have seen that. But did you note down the fact that the

2 officer in charge and the officer giving you orders was not someone from

3 your unit? Is this fact something you wrote down at the time?

4 A. No, not as far as I remember.

5 Q. Did you record this in your daily report, if, in fact, you

6 produced one on that particular day?

7 A. After the first 10 days or perhaps the first five or six days it

8 was done on a regular basis, the daily reports, and then it stopped. I

9 don't remember, actually, producing a written report at the time.

10 Q. What about the fact that you were taking your orders from an

11 officer who belonged to a different unit, did you tell the duty operations

12 officer at the brigade?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you ask him later on whether he had been informed by anyone

15 else?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You say you didn't know that Danilovic was the camp commander, but

18 you did know that he was Chief of Staff. Did you perhaps tell him about

19 this?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Let's go back to your statement, the statement that you gave to

22 the Novi Sad investigating magistrate during the Ovcara investigation for

23 the Belgrade tribunal. This was on the 24th of June, 2004. The pages

24 numbered and our page is page 2. This is passage 4, on that page in

25 English. Have you found that, sir, the Novi Sad statement?

Page 8536

1 A. What is the fourth -- what is passage number 4?

2 Q. The one that's been highlighted, "The same afternoon." It's with

3 investigating magistrate Alimpic, and the date is the 24th of June, 2004.

4 A. Page 2.

5 Q. Page 2, the passage reads: "The same afternoon."

6 A. It's actually the first.

7 Q. Yes, "the same afternoon"?

8 A. That's fine.

9 Q. Slowly. "The same afternoon, on the same day Lieutenant-Colonel

10 Vojnovic told me that the first group of prisoners would be arriving. I

11 took along between 15 and 20 men from the company under my command, and I

12 came to Ovcara. Military buses were soon there carrying prisoners. This

13 was when I was told that I would be taking my orders from Captain

14 Karanfilov, a security officer. I did not know which exact unit he

15 belonged to. I know that one of my superiors told me about it, but I do

16 not know exactly who it was."

17 This was a year and a half ago, wasn't it? Is this something you

18 remembered later on, that this was Vojnovic, or did you know at the time

19 but simply didn't wish to clearly say, or perhaps the person was not

20 Vojnovic?

21 A. Are you talking about a different paragraph? New paragraph, new

22 thoughts, new questions, new issues arising. I don't think this new

23 paragraph is in relation to previous one.

24 Q. So what does the word informed about that, what does this

25 word "that" mean?

Page 8537

1 A. I don't know. I don't know what the question was.

2 Q. Please, could you go through that paragraph again and tell me if

3 it's out of context or not?

4 A. I've gone through it and there must have been a question preceding

5 this answer, I think. That's a logical assumption. It's not like I was

6 doing all the talking. They were asking questions and then I was

7 answering the judges and also everybody else.

8 Q. Hold that thought. I wish to clarify what exactly the procedure

9 was.

10 A. Even if we look at it this way, it changes nothing about what I

11 said. If I remember well. I know that -- what exactly does it say? I

12 know that one of the officers told or bold or sold me about it, but I

13 don't know who exactly. I don't know what can really be challenged about

14 this.

15 Q. I'll ask you a simple question then, if you don't think anything

16 can be challenged. Did you or did you not state under oath in Novi Sad

17 that you did not know who had told you to report to Karanfilov and that

18 you would be taking your orders from Karanfilov?

19 A. I don't know. I don't remember. I think both words have the same

20 meaning, at least as far as I'm concerned. But well, there you go. In

21 any other statements I made, any later statements, I am saying the same

22 thing. I don't know who told me that. This is the only time I said I

23 did.

24 Q. Mr. Vezmarovic, you provided a lot of statements. I suppose you

25 were doing your best to tell the truth every time, right?

Page 8538

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I suppose you know, and I suppose you were cautioned by Judge

3 Alimpic about the potential consequences of perjury?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So you were telling the truth, weren't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So as the document seems to suggest, and you signed this document,

8 did you tell Judge Alimpic that you didn't know who had told you about

9 Karanfilov, whereas right now here you are saying that it was Vojnovic,

10 right? That's all I'm asking you about, yes or no?

11 A. This is what I'm trying to say. At this point in time what is

12 indicated here does not clash with what I'm saying. I clearly indicated

13 here that Vojnovic was not the one who told me that. Is my interpretation

14 correct as far as you're concerned?

15 Q. Can I phrase my question differently. When you gave your

16 statement in 2003, did you know that Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic was your

17 commander already?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You were not prepared to mention his name, or is it the fact that

20 he simply didn't tell you at the time?

21 A. He did tell me, but I didn't say here that he didn't tell me.

22 Q. Let's not dwell on this anymore.

23 MR. MOORE: Could I just draw the Court's attention to -- and

24 Mr. Lukic, to -- it's page 24, line 24. I don't know if this is a correct

25 translation, because it was travelling quite quickly. This is what I'm

Page 8539

1 trying to say at this point in time what is indicated here does not clash

2 with what I'm saying. I clearly indicated here that Vojnovic was not the

3 one who told me that. Perhaps I'm missing the point. I thought the

4 witness was saying that Vojnovic had actually told him that. I don't know

5 if it's a mistranslation, but it clearly is something that may become

6 important, or I may be missing the point.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

8 MR. MOORE: If one looks at 25/9, actually, there is an

9 inconsistency there.

10 JUDGE PARKER: The position is not clear on the transcript. And

11 we had avoided interrupting your cross-examination, but may we point out

12 two things: First, the Chamber hasn't a copy of this transcript. So on

13 issues like this we are not in a position to assess the force of what

14 you're saying. Hence, it's been our practice for copies to be made

15 available to us, even if in the end they're not tendered as an exhibit.

16 It enables the Chamber to follow the evidence and see where the strength

17 and the weaknesses are.

18 The second matter to remind you that there was established a

19 practice that if there were to be military regulations dealt with, we

20 would be provided with a hard copy. So the military police regulations we

21 haven't got.

22 I was waiting until the end of the session to mention those things

23 to you, but as you have been interrupted, I thought I'd get them off my

24 chest now.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] First of all, I misunderstood your

Page 8540

1 instruction to receive a hard copy of the documents. I believe it only

2 pertained to such military experts as Mr. Trifunovic was. Also, so far we

3 haven't given you any statements because you yourself stated that you

4 didn't want to refer back to the statements, although I would prefer you

5 to have them before you. And I will do my utmost to provide copies for

6 you after the break.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Vezmarovic, based on what I read out to you and what you

10 stated before the investigative judge, saying that you don't know which

11 one of the officers told you to report to Karanfilov, you signed this

12 statement, you stated that. Is that indeed what you stated to the

13 investigative judge in Novi Sad, simply yes or no?

14 A. If you want me to remember what I said, I can't. But it doesn't

15 say clearly here that I wasn't told by Vojnovic. This is a new paragraph,

16 meaning a new topic. Why would there be a new paragraph? I didn't say

17 that Vojnovic didn't tell me that.

18 Q. I have to read out yet again, the Judges no longer have that

19 portion of the transcript before them, so I will read out slowly.

20 "On the same day, the same afternoon Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic

21 told me that the first group of prisoners was to arrive. I took along

22 some 15 to 20 members of the company I commanded to Ovcara. Soon the

23 military buses with prisoners arrived. And I was told then that I was to

24 receive an order from Captain Karanfilov, who was a security person,

25 although I don't know which unit he belonged to."

Page 8541

1 A. End of paragraph.

2 Q. A new paragraph. "I know that one of the officers told me that,

3 although I don't know who exactly."

4 A. If you are going to go through the entire paragraph, this is

5 another conversation between Karanfilov, myself and officers. Croatian

6 officers, as the witness put it. Therefore, that was another topic I

7 discussed. This is no longer the first conversation. I can't recall

8 exactly, but going through the text now, and if you are to look at the

9 text, this is no longer the first event, but the second one. Because the

10 first one didn't include any Croatian officers.

11 Q. I want to ask you yet again. Did you state this in front of the

12 investigative judge and signed the statement. You said one of the

13 officers told me that, but I don't know who it was exactly?

14 A. That's what it states here. But I also tried to explain as to the

15 question whether I don't know if I was told that by Vojnovic, we can't

16 make that inference on the basis of this sentence.

17 Q. In that context, in front of the investigative judge in Novi Sad,

18 did you mention Vojnovic?

19 A. I can't remember. I haven't seen any of these papers since 1998.

20 Q. Before the arrival of the convoy on the 18th, the Mitnica group

21 one, you provided security and you assigned them to different posts; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes. Did you say before their arrival?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. No. We were only planning. Theory is one thing and practice is

Page 8542

1 another, and indeed it was different.

2 Q. Did you determine where the guard positions were supposed to be

3 and where the people were to be put inside the hangar?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Karanfilov gave you no order as regards the type of security or an

6 increase or decrease of security as well as the number of people needed to

7 organise it?

8 A. I'll try to be as brief as possible in my answers, but I have to

9 say the following: You are asking me about details that I really can't

10 recall. It has happened so many years ago. We are now talking about

11 whether at quarter past 4.00 my left or my right hand was in one of my

12 pockets. I'm going to tell you that no, he didn't give me any

13 instructions.

14 Q. I'm asking you to state here what you can remember, but on the

15 other hand you clearly indicated what instructions he gave you, and I can

16 see that you remember some details, so perhaps you can provide answers to

17 those. Let us move on.

18 This is what you stated two days ago as having been told by

19 Karanfilov, that is the transcript pertaining to the 8th of May on

20 page 79. You stated the following: That Karanfilov told you that these

21 were captured Croatian soldiers who had surrendered at Mitnica that day.

22 That they had all been disarmed. That one of them was allowed to keep his

23 pocket-knife. That you were to abide by the Geneva Conventions. That

24 among the members of the group there were some officers who were accorded

25 a separate status according to the Geneva Conventions, and that they were

Page 8543

1 to be picked up the next morning by someone. And, as you stated, he

2 provided his first and last name and point of contact for the night.

3 That's what you stated two days ago?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is there anything else he told you when you met for the first

6 time, and something you may have forgotten to say, and perhaps you can

7 remember some more now?

8 A. To be brief, no.

9 Q. You will agree with me, Mr. Vezmarovic, that everything I listed

10 here were instructions and information belonging to the routine tasks of a

11 security person informing an officer; is that correct?

12 A. You probably meant when he was supposed to issue an assignment to

13 me. Then yes.

14 Q. Did you receive an order from him?

15 A. I don't understand. What sort of order?

16 Q. Everything I listed. And apart from that, did Karanfilov issue an

17 order to you at that point?

18 A. Well, yes, of course. He ordered me to treat the prisoners

19 according to the Geneva Conventions, that was an order.

20 Q. That was an order?

21 A. Yes. Simply put. Could I explain, perhaps? I am here as a

22 witness, and I may be told I have the right to clarify, I was told to

23 stand up when the judges enter. He didn't order that -- for me to do

24 that, but he said those were the rules.

25 Q. As an officer and a military policeman, you know what the rules of

Page 8544

1 service of the military police have to say regarding the security of

2 prisoners, yes or no?

3 A. I'm just waiting for the transcript. All you're trying to ask me

4 is in the field of theory. I'm trying to explain the practice. And you

5 keep on asking me about theory.

6 Q. Are you trying to say that you don't know what the practice was as

7 regards the Geneva Conventions and that you didn't know that until you

8 were told by Karanfilov? Is that what you're trying to say?

9 A. I sense some tension here. I'm trying to say that I did my work

10 as best I could as an officer. And what I had been taught, not much of

11 that could have been implemented or put in practice. I did my best in

12 carrying out my duties though. As the result of that, until the 15th of

13 December not one of my soldiers was killed or injured. We completed all

14 of our assignments, things were fine. That's what I was trying to say.

15 And as for theory, well, I also accept that I may have made mistakes as an

16 officer. Yes, of course.

17 Q. I believe you have already provided an answer to this, and if you

18 did, I apologise. But I wanted to ask you whether all the brigade

19 officers were there, including Dragi Vukosavljevic on the 18th at

20 4.00 p.m., or around that time?

21 A. My interpretation is the following: I did my job as best I could.

22 There were many officers of different rank. I can't be specific as to

23 whether he was or wasn't there. If someone puts it to me that he was, I

24 accept that, provided I am uncertain about seeing him someplace else at

25 the same time. So if you mention Dragi Vukosavljevic, I accept that.

Page 8545

1 Q. You can state yes, no, or I don't remember, but you can't really

2 say I accept your proposition. If you don't remember, you don't remember.

3 A. I believe the question was put in such a way that granted me that

4 type of an answer.

5 Q. Am I mistaken if I say that in keeping with the regulation that

6 you are probably familiar with, that the security organ can only provide

7 professional advice on the completion of a task to the military police

8 unless the commander has transferred some of his powers to the security

9 organ to be able to issue commands?

10 A. You are referring to rules of service, and yet the last portion of

11 your question is not something that can be found within the rules of

12 service. To reiterate, we have theory put on paper. If we are to deal

13 with theory, then we can interpret regulations. I believe things are put

14 in the right way for as long as they are not changed. And I tried to

15 implement that. But let us not discuss practice.

16 Q. Let us not discuss practice then. If you were ordered something

17 by an officer from another unit, would you receive such an order if you

18 were not told by your commander to do so?

19 A. If I understood you properly, you asked me whether I would accept

20 an order by an officer from another unit without my commander notifying me

21 of that.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the end of the

23 witness's answer.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The answer was "no."

25 Q. As you testified here and in Belgrade, you stated you didn't know

Page 8546

1 what unit Karanfilov was from?

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 Q. You said that Vojnovic told you so ...

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. It is my position here that Karanfilov issued no orders to you and

6 that he couldn't have, but that he could only provide professional advice,

7 as the security organ. And that is also what was confirmed by Karanfilov

8 in his various appearances before various tribunals. Would you say that I

9 was wrong?

10 MR. MOORE: I object to the way that question is put. It is my

11 learned friend putting in evidence. If he wants it to be done, he should

12 call Karanfilov.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore is entirely correct, Mr. Lukic. And I

14 think you are aware of that.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I apologise. I wanted to

16 mention this: This witness was put all of these facts before. That's why

17 I mentioned what he said in previous trials when asked about these things.

18 Q. Am I mistaken if I were to say that Karanfilov could not order

19 you, but rather that he could only issue instructions or advice? Am I

20 mistaken?

21 A. You are.

22 Q. Your immediate superior, Mr. Vojnovic, in your opinion, did he

23 have any reason to try to cover up those facts or to confuse people as

24 regards Karanfilov and the orders? Did he ever say anything like that to

25 you?

Page 8547

1 A. Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic is an officer with whom I had

2 occasional contact. And your question implies chats, having chats with

3 the lieutenant-colonel, which I didn't have.

4 Q. Without chatting away with the lieutenant-colonel, without having

5 coffee with him, did you still discuss this topic? Did you talk to him

6 about what he has to say about that?

7 A. Out of all the conversations, outside courtrooms and various

8 institutions and buildings, starting with the restaurant in Kragujevac and

9 ending with this situation here, I believe I talked to him only once or

10 twice regarding this. And after such a conversation he cleared some

11 things for me concerning a part of day that I was uncertain of. And

12 Novica clarified it for me. I accepted what he had to say, and I believe

13 it to be the truth, and that is that we went to Nemci.

14 Q. When you were returning from your testimony in Belgrade, he said

15 that you were taking money to Nemci and that's how you remembered, and

16 this is Novica Trifunovic I'm talking about?

17 A. We didn't go in the same car, but we spoke during the break there.

18 Q. To conclude with this topic before the break, when you've

19 completed your tasks on the 19th and the prisoners were handed over to

20 Karanfilov, and when you were told to type out the list you compiled, did

21 he or anyone else tell you at the command that there was another group of

22 prisoners coming? I believe you've already provided your answer to that.

23 A. No.

24 Q. According to your knowledge, your traffic police platoon, was it,

25 did they participate in the transport of any group? I have in mind the

Page 8548

1 Mitnica group from or to Ovcara, or the Vukovar Hospital. Did your

2 traffic policemen ever participate in such transfers?

3 A. None of the military policemen participated in securing the

4 convoy.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we have a break

6 now, and then I will start with another topic right after.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

8 We will resume at 20 past 11.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.28 a.m.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vezmarovic, yesterday, or actually the day

14 before, you testified in response to a question by Mr. Moore about the

15 events in the course of the night, the first night when some people came

16 and they wanted to know who the people inside were, and then you said that

17 according to you it was normal for them to come and to express an interest

18 in the prisoners, and according to you this was just a normal conversation

19 with these people.

20 My question is: The next day, when you reported to Karanfilov

21 during the takeover, did you convey this fact to him in the same way, did

22 you tell him at all, and did you do it in that way, about the arrival of

23 those people in the course of the night, when those people came to the

24 hangar and about whether there were any problems there or not?

25 A. Well, I would like to repeat what I already said. And that is

Page 8549

1 that in the report to Captain Karanfilov it said that the security was

2 proper, there was no violence, there were no major problems. I don't know

3 whether I told him all the details. I don't recall that. But the point

4 of the report was that the security during the night was carried out

5 according to the regulations, and it was done properly.

6 Q. Yes, that's how I understood it, but as far as I remember, you

7 don't recall specifically whether you told him about the arrival of those

8 people or not, but if you do remember perhaps, did you point that out as a

9 problem to Karanfilov or not? If you don't remember, it's okay, we can

10 continue.

11 A. No, I don't remember.

12 Q. Can we for a moment look at your notebook, page 63. We looked at

13 that yesterday. You talked about the entry with the list. After the list

14 the entry stating received on the 18th of November, 1991, around 1600

15 hours, and so on and so forth, it's clear and, I don't think that this was

16 in dispute, that this was written by someone else, and this was something

17 that Judge Parker asked you about, whether this was your handwriting or

18 not. I don't think it was your handwriting?

19 A. Well, if I didn't say it at the time, I'm telling you now, that is

20 my handwriting.

21 Q. In that case, I apologise. It didn't seem to me as if it was.

22 But tell me, you said that you wrote this down yourself, the names of the

23 prisoners by their name, first, last name and their numbers; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8550

1 Q. And what comes after that is your handwriting too; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes. And if I am not mistaken, I don't know if I said that here.

4 I said that I used both alphabets competently, and that I wrote the first

5 and last names of prisoners initially in the Cyrillic, but then when I

6 realised that it was complicated because of the names, then I switched to

7 the Latin script.

8 Q. Did I read that somewhere, I can't remember where, somewhere in

9 your statements that you said that the first six officers were noted down,

10 and then you gave that to somebody else who was writing down the names,

11 and then the number didn't tally because that person didn't put their own

12 name down. So when you got to Sremska Mitrovica it didn't work out. I

13 mean, it's not such an important detail, but perhaps if that was so, maybe

14 you will remember and tell us.

15 A. Well, the story relates to one of the soldiers who -- well, it's

16 interesting only as a kind of a joke. The story was that the number of

17 the prisoners was -- the same number was not handed over as was the number

18 on the list, but it was more of a joke. They were just joking at my

19 expense. Because at the time that they were talking, I requested all the

20 prisoners to be taken out again, and then I called out their first and

21 last names and the story ended because then we drank coffee at the end.

22 But the list was --

23 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter didn't catch the last part

24 of the answer.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8551

1 Q. All right. We won't go into that anymore. We don't need this

2 document on the --

3 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, the interpreter said that she did not

4 catch -- hear the last part of the answer. Perhaps that could be

5 clarified.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. The witness said that he made

7 the list, and that that was his handwriting.

8 Q. Would you say that, sir?

9 A. Yes, yes. I made the list myself that evening, and that complete

10 part is in my handwriting. These pages that you have.

11 Q. Very well.

12 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... just to

13 complete the question, the list that you prepared, was it correct or was

14 there a deficiency in the list?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The list was correct. They were

16 just joking with me at one point in time. It was 181 or 185 soldiers, and

17 six officers. That's what it was on the list.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Did you mean 185? I think earlier you said 175.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 175 soldiers, plus six officers.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. When you handed them over at Mitrovica and then when you came

24 back, I assume that you informed the officer on duty at your command that

25 the assignment had been carried out?

Page 8552

1 A. Again, I don't remember who it was that I informed; maybe it was

2 Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic, maybe it was the officer on duty. In any

3 event, I did stop by at the command.

4 Q. Do you recall telling Karanfilov about this? Do you remember

5 being in touch with him or in contact with him after you came back from

6 Mitrovica?

7 A. I saw Captain Karanfilov on the 11th in the morning and on

8 the 20th in the evening at Ovcara. Other than that, I didn't see him

9 anywhere.

10 Q. So the answer is no?

11 A. No, yes, that is correct.

12 MR. MOORE: Again, I'm sorry to rise. I got on the 11th in the

13 morning. I can't help but think there is an error either in translation

14 or what has been said.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness actually made

16 a slip. He said -- he meant to say the 19th but didn't say that.

17 A. I don't know what it says, but I can say it again. I saw

18 Karanfilov on the 19th in the morning and on the 20th in the evening.

19 Q. I'm just going put one more question to you, not in relation to

20 your testimony, but in relation to somebody else's testimony that we heard

21 here. That night, of the 18th and the 19th, did you see there, in front

22 of the hangar, in that area or closer to the yellow house, or anywhere

23 where you were able to see, did you see any vehicles arriving with

24 civilians, with men and women who were there for some time and then left

25 in buses? Do you recall seeing anything like that?

Page 8553

1 A. No.

2 MR. MOORE: Again, with the utmost respect, my recollection is

3 that there wasn't evidence for the night of the 18th/19th. I thought it

4 dealt with the 19th. But anyway, the answer deals with the timetable.

5 That certainly is my recollection.

6 JUDGE PARKER: That, I think, is part of the point of the

7 witness's concern which he expressed at the commencement of this evidence

8 today. Whether there was confusion between the 18th and the 19th in the

9 evenings. So we will leave it to Mr. Lukic for the moment and then

10 Mr. Borovic, and then if there is anything left, it will be Mr. Moore to

11 sort out.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I asked this specifically about the

13 night of the 18th and the 19th when the Mitnica group was being guarded.

14 And I would like to remind Mr. Moore that this was in relation to a

15 witness who testified before the Tribunal a while ago, that that evening a

16 group came from Mitnica on the 18th, and there were some other people

17 there too and then they left. I'm just saying what this protected witness

18 said. But let us continue.

19 Q. Could we now place on the monitor Exhibit 371 again,

20 page 0D00-0616. We are going to, once again, look at the operations diary

21 of your brigade entry for the 19th of November at 1200 hours.

22 I am going to read it here, the entry for 1200 hours, the 19th of

23 November. "We have been informed that a decision has been made that the

24 prisoners and members of the ZNG should be handed over to -- should be

25 transferred to Sremska Mitrovica." That's right. "Lieutenant-Colonel

Page 8554

1 Danilovic has been relieved of duty to guard members of the MUP and ZNG in

2 the Ovcara sector."

3 Is that what it says there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You have already responded that you don't know if

6 Lieutenant-Colonel Danilovic was commander of the camp. Does this entry

7 perhaps refresh your recollection about a decision being made at

8 12.00 noon to disband the camp?

9 A. Well, I don't have the recollection, but may I say something?

10 What you have read means, as far as I understand, that he's being relieved

11 of the duty of escorting the convoy. I assume that before that it says

12 that he was assigned the task of escorting the convoy. Perhaps that's an

13 entry an hour or two before that.

14 Q. No, it doesn't say that. All it says is that he has been assigned

15 as commander of the camp, but we will see about that later. But let us

16 assume that he was, according to the diary, the commander of the camp.

17 Now we are going to move to the 20th of November when you went to

18 Ovcara once again. Based on your testimony, I concluded, Mr. Vezmarovic,

19 that when you came to your unit first that's where you heard that a number

20 of your military policemen were already at Ovcara and that they were

21 guarding a new group of prisoners, and you, on your own initiative, which

22 is how I understood it, you went there to see what was going on. Did I

23 understand your testimony correctly?

24 A. Well, I don't know why you say on my own initiative.

25 Q. Did anybody order you to do that?

Page 8555

1 A. I am in command of the unit, the unit has a task that it is

2 carrying out, so I went there to see what the unit was doing. There's

3 nothing strange about that. Perhaps if you want to go back to the theory

4 of command, maybe we can then refer to continuity of command.

5 Q. Yes, that is correct. You mentioned your soldiers Predrag Sapic

6 and Novica Trifunovic a little bit earlier. You said that Trifunovic was

7 a person who had actually refreshed your recollection. The soldiers who

8 were with you and went -- are those the two soldiers who left Negoslavci

9 in the Pinzgauer with you to go Ovcara?

10 A. I don't want it to seem as if I am saying one thing at one time

11 and something else at another time. This conversation with Novica, well,

12 as far as that's concerned, I don't remember who left with me, but Novica

13 explained to me that he left with me, that he and Sapic went with me, that

14 when we went to Nemci and then when we got to Negoslavci, then we -- they

15 continued Ovcara.

16 Q. Well, just tell us what you remember. If you don't remember

17 something, you can say that.

18 A. So what that means is that I cannot really tell what true memory

19 is and what is an augmentation of something that I really experienced. So

20 in myself I cannot tell these things apart. I know somebody came with me,

21 and he tells me, and judging by some incidents that happened on our way to

22 Nemci, I know that he was with me. So if he was with me in Nemci, we came

23 to Negoslavci after that, and after that it follows that he was with me.

24 But what I'm saying, it's because of these earlier statements

25 that --

Page 8556

1 Q. Do you remember or did he remind you that he was in front of the

2 hangar during the security at the time when you were there, both him and

3 Sapic?

4 A. Well, again, we have this thing that we know what happened, but

5 I'm not sure exactly who it was. There were soldiers there, there was

6 security there, standing outside, and he told me that he was outside. I

7 don't know exactly whether that was so or not, but that's what he said,

8 that he was outside.

9 Q. Do you remember whether he told you -- first of all, I'm going to

10 ask you: Do you remember that you sent him and Sapic later from

11 Negoslavci in the course of the night to secure the military facility at

12 Ovcara? Do you remember that? Do you remember ordering that, yes or no?

13 A. No. I think that no order was issued to that effect.

14 Q. Do you remember that Trifunovic told you that he went to Ovcara

15 during the night, Trifunovic and Sapic?

16 A. No.

17 Q. If you didn't issue that order, who could have issued that order,

18 since they were soldiers in your company?

19 A. The commander, but again I'm telling you it was the security

20 organ.

21 Q. Specifically, Vukosavljevic?

22 A. Yes. Probably the duty officer conveyed the order to them.

23 Q. You will agree with me, earlier you said you went to Ovcara to be

24 with your soldiers, so I must conclude that you always need to know where

25 your soldiers are. If someone else sent them there, would that person

Page 8557

1 have had to inform you that some of your soldiers had left in the course

2 of the night in accordance with an order by the commander to carry out

3 some assignments? Do you remember that or not?

4 A. If I understood this question properly, it's something along the

5 lines of what would happen if it were to happened [as interpreted]. I

6 don't know that the order was issued, and I don't know that they were

7 there.

8 Q. Well, we're not going to make any assumptions here.

9 Now we're going to look at the same page of the operations diary,

10 or possibly the next page, it's page 0D00-0616. Six. You also talked

11 about this with Mr. Vasic yesterday. We're talking about the 20th of

12 November now at 1600 hours. I'm going to read slowly what it says there.

13 "The commander of the brigade" -- this is 1600 hours on the 20th of

14 November. "The commander of the brigade requests that guard shifts or

15 that officers are relieved in order to guard the captured ZNG members and

16 the MUP members. The company of the military police was engaged on this

17 as well as officers of the brigade command."

18 Now, what I would like to ask you is this: According to this

19 entry from the diary, who is asking that shifts, guard shifts be relieved?

20 A. You're asking me to interpret something that isn't mine. Am I

21 supposed to be an expert here?

22 Q. I think it's a simple question.

23 A. I'm not saying it isn't simple, but I'm not familiar with the

24 document, and yet you're asking me to interpret this. This entry was made

25 by whoever happened to be duty officer at the time. As soon as they had

Page 8558

1 time, they would write it down. They did have a number of other things to

2 worry about too. The time-line is not necessarily accurate either. It

3 always says 8.00, 9.00, but it may as well have been quarter past 8.00 or

4 six minutes past 3.00 in the afternoon or whatever. I suppose this was

5 written pursuant to an order by the commander ordering them to do

6 something else on top of this, and the action taken is described here in

7 this entry.

8 Q. I'm not asking you to act as an expert. It seems that a military

9 police company was involved in the execution of this order, so who could

10 possibly have ordered this to the military police company?

11 A. I'm not in Negoslavci at this point in time.

12 Q. I know that.

13 A. Who could this possibly have been. Well, we have to go back to

14 the theoretical aspect of the situation. The theory says it could have

15 been the commander. But at this particular point in time, someone could

16 have gone over there. I'm talking about the purely practical aspect. It

17 could have been the soldier on duty outside the command who could have

18 gone there and said that the unit was to go and they were right there. So

19 I'm telling you about what happens in practice. There is a guard on the

20 security job. He could have gone on, and this would have been complied

21 with, and there would have been nothing wrong with it.

22 Q. Yes, but this is the way the order was executed.

23 A. No, no. No, nobody would have asked questions about it. If

24 that's what you mean.

25 MR. MOORE: I object to the question. The witness has already

Page 8559

1 answered it now twice that he is not the compiler of the document, he is

2 not able to say who compiled the document, who the person is, and

3 Mr. Lukic hasn't got the answer because the witness can't help and he's

4 just pursuing point which is impossible for the witness to answer. He's

5 being asked to speculate.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, have you any submission?

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll just move on. We'll soon have

8 another witness who will probably be better-placed to talk about this. I

9 just wanted to refresh the witness's memory but that was that.

10 A. Yes, the simple answer is, I wasn't there.

11 Q. You talked with Trifunovic; obviously he jogged your memory about

12 those days. What about now? Do you remember seeing Vojnovic at the

13 brigade command before you left for Ovcara? You said you were with your

14 unit and you may have passed by the command and paid him a call. My

15 specific question is: Did you see Vojnovic at the brigade command then as

16 you were headed for Ovcara?

17 A. I believe I've said this. I don't remember. I probably paid them

18 a call, I did see people there, but whether Lieutenant-Colonel was there

19 or not is really not something that I remember.

20 Q. What about Trifunovic and Sapic? Were they often with the

21 commander's security in those days? Rather than often, were they with

22 those soldiers at all, the soldiers who were providing security for the

23 commander over the previous days?

24 A. I mean, I don't remember, but I'll give it my best shot. They

25 were both young lads, strong. One of them was even a karate expert.

Page 8560

1 Whenever I could, you do have to bear in mind that this is a very delicate

2 task, providing security for a commander that's on the move. I would send

3 them on those assignments. How many times, I don't know. I don't know

4 how many times the commander left. Whenever he was off somewhere,

5 somebody would always be there escorting him, protecting him.

6 Q. Did Trifunovic ever tell you that he had seen Vojnovic at the

7 command and that he had looked distinctly unsettled? Is it possible for

8 Trifunovic to actually see the commander and for you just simply not to

9 notice him?

10 A. I tried to give an answer a while ago, and I'll try to do the same

11 thing now. I don't like to talk about those events, but it was by pure

12 coincidence as we were waiting inside the court building that we talked

13 about a number of things. Then he reminded me of a couple of details to

14 do with our trip then and the time when these things happened, but I don't

15 remember him telling me anything else about that. And at the time I don't

16 remember him telling me anything because it was very difficult to talk in

17 the vehicle itself. I was sitting next to the driver on the passenger's

18 seat and he was at the back. He was in the back of the car in the back

19 seat.

20 Q. I'll just skip my next question. Can we now please look at 256,

21 that is the set, and the photograph number is 24. It's Exhibit 256. The

22 set is 256, the photograph is 24. That's the one.

23 A simple question. Does this photograph ring a bell,

24 Mr. Vezmarovic? This photograph was taken later on.

25 A. This could be the hangar inside which the soldiers were.

Page 8561

1 Q. The prisoners too, presumably, right?

2 A. Yes, yes. We can see the entrance to the right and the general

3 direction of this photograph is towards the yellow house, as it were.

4 Q. Can you please try to indicate on this photograph where you set up

5 the rope. I'm talking about the 20th now. Can you use this photograph,

6 or perhaps you would like to use a different one to describe where you set

7 up that rope to rope the prisoners off, as it were?

8 A. I think I could try to use this one.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: One at a time, please.

10 A. To the right you can see the entrance. The right-hand side of

11 this photograph.

12 Q. Please mark that as number 1.

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. Thank you. That's the entrance?

15 A. If that's the entrance, the prisoners were to the right of the

16 entrance. So you go in, and the prisoners were to the right. The rope,

17 well, I'll try to mark the rope as being here down the middle, but it was

18 actually lower down in terms of height. [Marks].

19 Q. So the prisoners were at the far end of the hangar looking from

20 our current perspective, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You were the one who set up the rope, the rope was not there

23 before you got there, right?

24 A. No, it wasn't.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek that this be admitted into

Page 8562

1 evidence, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

3 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 436, Your Honours.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have photograph 23, please,

5 from the same set of photographs. 23.

6 Q. Perhaps you can help me. Was this one taken from a different

7 angle? If you don't know, then we have no use for this photograph.

8 A. If this is the same angle, then I would say it's the other way

9 around. This is the opposite angle. This is the other door where the

10 machines were, right? Yes. The machines were to the right. That's

11 where I wanted to keep those soldiers as reserve, right?

12 Q. So this was from -- taken from where the prisoners were?

13 A. Yes, indeed.

14 Q. As far as I know, the -- there were sliding doors at both ends of

15 the hangar, but only one was used, and you must have fastened the one

16 remaining door to keep it from being opened by someone else, right?

17 A. Yes, to the extent that I could.

18 Q. And this door opens on to that yard across the way from those

19 farming machines, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. No need to mark this photograph.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender it as it is.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Is it an exhibit already? I'm told it is,

24 Mr. Lukic.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 8563

1 JUDGE PARKER: It's part of this 256 collection, yes.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right. Then no need to tender

3 this, since the witness made no markings.

4 Q. All right. You arrive on the 20th, it is dark, so to speak.

5 Right. You have just arrived, you realise that some of your soldiers from

6 the military police company are there already, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You see a number of soldiers from other units that were part of

9 your brigade. Also you see a number of officers there, one of which you

10 recognise, Joca Kafic. His real name was Jovan Novkovic, right?

11 A. [Witness nods]. I'm trying not to overlap.

12 Q. It was one of his soldiers that was drawing up a list, that's what

13 you remember, right?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. The previous answer on page 49, line 25, was yes.

16 You were looking around to see if you could find anyone there who

17 looked like a commander, a superior officer so that you could talk to him

18 about establishing order or something, right? I'm not saying an officer,

19 but someone in addition to Novkovic, right?

20 A. I wasn't looking around. I was asking. I spoke up to ask if

21 there was anyone there who was in command of those units. Or, rather, I

22 was asking for the most senior officer present.

23 Q. But I suppose were you also sort of looking around the hangar to

24 see if you could find anyone there to seemed to be highly ranked?

25 A. Looking and specifically asking by using my voice.

Page 8564

1 Q. So you were looking around. You were searching. Do you remember

2 seeing Vojnovic or Dragi Vukosavljevic there?

3 A. No, I don't.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go into private session

5 for a brief moment?

6 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. At any rate -- is there a problem, Witness?

20 A. I don't have the transcript, which is convenient for me to follow

21 in order to avoid overlaps.

22 Q. You gave an order for everybody to leave. Everybody left with the

23 exception of your military policemen guarding the hangar. Some complained

24 and some didn't, but everybody left, right?

25 A. It may be easier for us to start overlapping now since I don't

Page 8565

1 have the transcript in front of me. I have it now.

2 Q. This captain first class Novkovic was among those who left, right?

3 Did you exchange any sort of information with him at this time?

4 Specifically, did you ask him if there had been any trouble? I'll ask you

5 what Borovic asked you yesterday. The moment you got there, did you ask

6 Novkovic if anyone had beaten anyone else, if anyone had killed anyone

7 else, if anyone had taken anybody else away? Did you ask him any

8 questions at all, or did he just tell you unprompted, or did you simply

9 not speak about this, or did you ask him and he said no, there was

10 nothing?

11 A. To put it in the simplest possible terms, I don't remember. When

12 I arrived, my line of thinking and what I, in fact, did was to guard the

13 prisoners to make sure they were safe. To make sure they were being

14 guarded under my command. And then everything else would have followed.

15 At this point in time, I did not stop to speak to anyone. I did not stop

16 to arrange anything with anyone. I did not stop to take any decisions. I

17 decided that everybody should leave because I had no idea where they

18 belonged to, with the exception of the military policemen, the people with

19 the white belts. The objective being to establish control over the

20 prisoners.

21 Q. While you were in the hangar with your military police officers,

22 some of them having arrived earlier, this wasn't just for a fraction of a

23 second, you did stay there for some time. Did any of your military police

24 officers who had been there before tell you about any sort of mistreatment

25 or people being taken away before you eventually arrived?

Page 8566

1 A. No. I don't remember.

2 Q. I think you probably would remember if anything like that had, in

3 fact, been the case, right?

4 A. Well, I think so too, but it's just an assumption. It's pure

5 speculation. Had anyone told me anything at the time, had there been any

6 need to report, even the next day, to our commander, I certainly would

7 have done so. But this is all in the realm of speculation.

8 Q. Just a moment. Could you please take a look at your statement to

9 the military court, page 5.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Judges for not

11 providing copies of the statements, but I was surprised by something, and

12 this is what I was to explain. I wasn't -- I didn't know whether you

13 would want to have the entire statements or only the relevant portions

14 to -- that are put to the witness. Perhaps we could get some

15 instructions, and I believe I'm saying on behalf of my colleagues as well,

16 asking for this instruction, to know whether you want to see the entire

17 statement or just parts of it?

18 JUDGE PARKER: If it is a statement, the entire statement. If it

19 is a transcript of a full court hearing, the relevant part. By that I

20 don't merely mean the question you're going to put and the answer, but

21 what closely comes before and after so that the general context can be

22 seen. Is that clear enough?

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise again. This is new

24 instruction compared to what we have been given before, and I also had

25 some time to consult my clients.

Page 8567

1 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... some of your

2 colleagues have been doing this. Carry on, Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I believe you have the statement you gave before the military

5 court in front of you. Page 5. This is what you stated then, the second

6 paragraph. "Upon my arrival at Ovcara I found the unit commanded by Joca.

7 I asked him what has been going on at Ovcara in the meantime. He told me

8 that the command had given him the task of guarding the prisoners in the

9 hangar until the military police arrived."

10 Do you remember having stated that before the military court and

11 did you have such a conversation with Novkovic in 1999?

12 A. I just said that I don't remember, but back in 1999 we were much

13 closer to the events of 1991 than we are now. And this is the first time

14 I am being reminded after so long, and after all the statements I've given

15 about having said this. So you keep jogging my memory, but it would have

16 been far easier for me, had I been given these statements prior to the

17 testimony to go through them and to have them before me even now.

18 Q. In any case, your recollection of events back in 1999 was far

19 better than it is today?

20 A. Yes, absolutely.

21 Q. At the time your assessment was that with your 15 to 20 policemen

22 you could set up security in the hangar in a proper way, that's why you

23 wanted everyone to go out. Have I understood the situation correctly?

24 A. Far from it being a sufficient number, but that's what I had at my

25 disposal at the time.

Page 8568

1 Q. If you needed more men at that moment, why did you order Novkovic

2 and his men to leave?

3 A. I don't know whether I have mentioned that before, but the

4 simplest way to establish order and command was to have all the military

5 policemen wearing white belts stay. In my assessment that was the best

6 way to ensure security of the prisoners. Perhaps I can stop here and then

7 your questions may follow. But this was my idea as to how to do it in the

8 most efficient way. I couldn't discuss who was from what unit, and who

9 wanted to stay and who was told what by whom. The people I didn't know

10 had to leave, those I did could stay. And then we were supposed to decide

11 what to do next.

12 Q. And then your instructions were obeyed to or complied with and

13 when your military policemen remained, were there any problems as of that

14 moment when you yourselves have been providing security?

15 A. The situation was under control.

16 Q. You didn't ask Novkovic to notify any of the officers from the

17 command to send more policemen to assist or -- and you didn't ask for any

18 other reinforcements from anyone else?

19 A. I don't remember. I don't know whether there were any additional

20 policemen.

21 Q. And during the time you were there, before Karanfilov's arrival,

22 you didn't send out any of your policemen to notify everyone that

23 reinforcements were needed while you were inside, before Karanfilov

24 arrived?

25 A. To go back to one of my previous answers, I'll just try to

Page 8569

1 rephrase. I tried to provide proper security of the prisoners. As to how

2 long it took, what the effort was, and everything that was going on, I

3 can't remember. My primary task was to establish order. Once it has

4 been, Captain Karanfilov came. Therefore, I had no time to do anything

5 else.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the last portion of

7 the answer.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. So during that time interval -- the end of the witness's answer

10 has not been recorded on page 55, line 17. The end was "to be given

11 another task to withdraw." That's what the witness said.

12 As you were trying to gain control of the hangar, you didn't want

13 or you didn't find it necessary to send anyone out to ask for

14 reinforcements. That's a simple question.

15 A. In my assessment, no.

16 Q. The Belgrade proceedings, page 82. I don't think I'll be putting

17 it to the witness. Oh, yes, I will. I believe that is page 81 in the

18 English. Attorney-at-law Milan Stanic, towards the bottom of the page?

19 A. What page you said?

20 Q. Page 82, line 15 from the bottom, more or less.

21 Attorney-at-law Milan Stanic: "How many soldiers did he have at

22 his disposal? What was the numerical strength?"

23 Presiding judge: "He was asked that and he said 15 to 20

24 soldiers."

25 Attorney-at-law Stanic: "In his estimate, would he have managed

Page 8570

1 to continue securing -- to successfully secure these prisoners?"

2 Witness Dragan Vezmarovic: "Yes. Absolutely. May I?"

3 Presiding judge: "Yes, yes."

4 Your reply; Witness Vezmarovic: "Everything could have been done

5 in a regular way as regards security. Because everybody respected the

6 newly established situation. Therefore, there were no problems."

7 Do you remember having stated this, and do you agree with that?

8 A. Since it was recorded this way, it means that I must have said

9 that.

10 Q. Let's move on then. To be precise, I have another thing I wanted

11 to clarify. During your stay in the hangar, the security was provided

12 only by the military police of your brigade; is that so?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In the meantime, while you were there, did other soldiers come to

15 the hangar, or other officers, and I have in mind the JNA, and TO members

16 as well. Did anyone enter the hangar while you were there apart from the

17 moment when Karanfilov came, according to what you stated?

18 A. I can't remember all the details, but whether there were some

19 other officers in front of the hangar, around the hangar, maybe they even

20 went in, but I can't remember that. As regards the TO members who tried

21 to enter, that was under control.

22 Q. That's the way you described it.

23 A. Since security was provided, there was no problem with the

24 soldiers of the 80th Motorised Brigade being there.

25 Q. During your stay in the hangar, did any of the prisoners -- were

Page 8571

1 any of the prisoners taken out?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you see a woman in the hangar who was one of the prisoners?

4 A. They were pointing at a woman in the hangar.

5 Q. One woman? If you don't remember ...

6 A. They were pointing at this particular woman.

7 Q. You've described the arrival of Karanfilov, he came, gave you

8 instructions. In your estimate, how long did it take for him to issue the

9 instructions before -- and for you to leave the hangar and Ovcara? Could

10 you be somewhat specific?

11 A. I can try and do some math. We -- he came, we spoke, I was given

12 an assignment, I issued orders, my soldiers assembled, the vehicles came,

13 we packed our stuff. But I don't know how long it lasted.

14 Q. You said the vehicles arrived. What I thought was that the

15 Pinzgauers were there, nearby. They didn't return to Negoslavci in the

16 meantime.

17 A. No, they were there. They were parked and then brought closer.

18 Q. And when Karanfilov told you the things he did, the situation in

19 the hangar was fully under control; isn't that so?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I believe in your testimony here you stated that you were quite

22 happy about not having to spend the night freezing there, and that the

23 task was taken over by another unit, that is the TO to be specific.

24 A. It may sound terrible, but it is true nonetheless.

25 Q. Maybe it looks terrible from where you're sitting today, but at

Page 8572

1 that moment could you have sensed or thought that something could take

2 place? Did you think, well, I can go away for the night, but something

3 might happen? Could you have anticipated that something would happen,

4 something bad would happen?

5 A. There were no indications about anything bad happening. I had no

6 doubt in my mind.

7 Q. Just before you got on the Pinzgauers, you had your policemen

8 securing the inside of the hangar and just outside of the hangar, around

9 the hangar?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In your statement given to the military court, I won't read it out

12 now, but I wanted to ask you this: The people to whom Karanfilov told

13 them that they were to take over the duties there, being the TO officers,

14 that you pointed it out to them that they were to behave in keeping the

15 Geneva Conventions. That's what you stated in that -- before that

16 tribunal, but do you remember having said that?

17 A. I don't remember having said that. What comes to mind is that I

18 asked him whether they had sufficient numbers of men and whether they

19 could provide adequate security, as far as I can could remember.

20 Q. Page 5 of that statement in the middle, third paragraph. You

21 stated: "I couldn't see anything unusual. I couldn't have anticipated as

22 to how they would treat them subsequently. I told the TO members to treat

23 the prisoners fairly and according to the Geneva Conventions as regards

24 those captured during combat operations. I thought that was the way they

25 understood what I had said."

Page 8573

1 Now that I've read this out, do you remember it?

2 A. I stated that before the military court.

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. Then it is possible.

5 Q. What surprises me is that you found it necessary to say all that

6 to them, since Karanfilov was there. I don't know whether you remember

7 that. Do you have any comment?

8 A. No, I don't. I'm trying to explain the following: What was

9 happening in the field was the way it was. And this fact that I may have

10 addressed them, Karanfilov probably did too. We did that with the

11 intention of meeting the goal that was set.

12 Q. Two days before that you went through the handing over of the

13 prisoners on the 18th, that is the 19th in the morning concerning the

14 Mitnica group, and you have explained the procedure. Since you found

15 nothing unusual about the TO units taking over the security of the

16 prisoners, why didn't you ask for a list to be compiled first, the way you

17 had asked two days before that? It's a simple question.

18 A. If you remember what I said about those two days, I didn't ask the

19 list to be compiled by the people who took them prisoners. But rather, I

20 compiled the list. So the people providing security were supposed to make

21 a list. Therefore, logically, the TO was to make that list. If you

22 understand what I'm trying to say. I wasn't the person who made --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, I made the list of the

24 Mitnica prisoners who were handed over to me.

25 A. Therefore, to my logic the unit taking over was supposed to make

Page 8574

1 the list. If I did that the previous night, then the group securing them

2 should do that the next day.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Did you hand over the prisoners at this time?

5 A. Yes. Much the same as the Mitnica group before. The principle

6 was the same. The group was disgorged from the vehicles, they were sent

7 inside. I didn't know how many there were. And the same applied to this

8 time. They were all there. I saw them all, I left them, and my soldiers

9 left.

10 Q. Mr. Vezmarovic, I don't think you're answering my question, with

11 all due respect, and it's basically a simple one. This moment when

12 Karanfilov tells you that they would be taking charge, and then you leave,

13 is this the hand-over of prisoners that you mean? Secondly, the unit now

14 guarding the prisoners, yes or no?

15 A. Well, yes, in some way, I suppose.

16 Q. You did not believe at the time that first you should draw up a

17 list of those persons before you handed them over to another unit, yes or

18 no?

19 A. No, in that case.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am about to wrap up.

21 You talked about half past 12.00, but I have another 20 minutes to go, so

22 I'm not sure if I should continue. Yesterday I understood that we would

23 be continuing until 12.30 today.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Our normal morning sessions on these mid-week days

25 is 9.30 to 12.30, then 1.30 to 4.30. That's with why I said 12.30, to

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1 give you the complete afternoon. 20 minutes, I think, is a fairly

2 substantial intrusion into that time.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE PARKER: We think it would be preferable for everybody to

5 keep to the time indicated, unless you see a significant problem there,

6 Mr. Lukic.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I was just wondering

8 whether I should move on to my final topic.

9 JUDGE PARKER: No, and we're always encouraged by the thought that

10 whenever we give you an opportunity to think over a break, you are shorter

11 after the break. So we will resume tomorrow morning at 9.30, as

12 indicated.

13 We will adjourn now.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.35 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day of May,

16 2006, at 9.30 a.m.