1 Tuesday, 30 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good morning to you all. Judge Parker is

7 unfortunately unable to sit today, so again applying the rules, Judge

8 Thelin and myself will sit on our own.

9 Before we start, let me turn to a housekeeping issue. We have, as

10 you may know, a Plenary this afternoon, which starts at 2.30 this

11 afternoon. So what we propose to do today is to have two sessions of one

12 hour and a half, so we would go to 11.00 for the first session and then

13 have our break and then go on to 1.00 and finish for the day then. So

14 that's what we intend for the schedule today.

15 Tomorrow we will have the ordinary schedule, starting at 9.30 and

16 going on until 4.30 in the afternoon. And then for Thursday morning

17 Thursday there is also a change; there we propose to sit on a morning

18 half-day session scheme so we would start at 9.00 and finish at a quarter

19 to 2.00. And on Friday, as usual on Friday also from 9.00 until a quarter

20 to 2.00. So if we can proceed on that basis.

21 Okay. Mr. Moore.

22 MR. MOORE: May I just deal with one small matter? We have this

23 witness, I would hope to finish him in chief today. And then

24 cross-examination obviously I hope will be concluded by tomorrow. We then

25 have Grujic as the witness on Thursday, but he has an obligation or an

1 appointment, I think at the weekend, and must be away by Friday evening.

2 I don't know if my learned friends will be able to indicate now if that is

3 possible or not. I understand it's quite an important appointment.

4 [Defence counsel confer].

5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Vasic.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. God morning

7 to all. The position of the Defence in relation to Mr. Grujic depends on

8 how his examination-in-chief goes; however, bearing in mind our schedule

9 for the end of this week and the beginning of the following week, I think

10 there is an opening for Mr. Grujic to travel back for the weekend and

11 finish his meeting since we shall not be sitting on Monday. The following

12 Monday being a bank holiday. Therefore, the next court day is Tuesday, we

13 believe he might be back on Tuesday to continue his cross-examination, if

14 that's necessary at all. But I believe the schedule that we're facing

15 before the end of this week does not leave a lot of room for the Defence

16 teams to be able to guarantee that we shall be concluding our

17 cross-examination by the end of Friday.

18 We have had some preliminary contact with Mr. Smith from the OTP,

19 and he said that his chief might take at least three hours. Bearing in

20 mind our schedule, it's very difficult for the Defence to promise that we

21 shall be concluding by the end of Friday, given the little time that we

22 have at our disposal in order to cross-examine that witness, and this

23 applies to all three Defence teams. I do hope however, should that be the

24 case, Mr. Grujic should eventually be able to come back to us on Tuesday

25 to continue his testimony. Thank you.

1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

2 Mr. Moore, do you think that will be possible, if necessary.

3 MR. MOORE: I am having inquiries made to see the extent of the

4 obligation and we will know, I hope, by e-mail fairly soon and I can deal

5 with it at the next break.

6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much.

7 MR. MOORE: May I now call the next witness. Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good morning, sir. Will you please read

9 the card has held in front of you now, with the affirmation.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much. You may sit down

13 now.

14 MR. MOORE: The next witness is in closed session. And I have

15 confidential material. Well, it would seem to be it's merely

16 confidential, I will check the confidential material, I think it may be

17 voice and facial distortion. If that is the case, that would be adequate.

18 Thank you very much

19 WITNESS: WITNESS P-030

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examination by Mr. Moore:

22 MR. MOORE:

23 Q. Witness, would you be kind enough, please, to look at the

24 following confidential material and confirm that they are your personal

25 details?

1 A. Yes, that's it.

2 Q. Might I make application that that confidential document be made

3 an exhibit under seal, please.

4 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: That will be received.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit 525 under seal.

6 MR. MOORE: It may well be there is some difficulty hearing and I

7 understand I may have two microphones. I'll try to go back to one, if I

8 can, because I like to have confidential conversations. I hope everyone

9 can hear me. Let us then proceed.

10 Q. I'm going to call you, if I may, Witness 30. May I deal, please,

11 with your general background. I think it's right to say that you have

12 been a student, that you attended college in Zagreb, but you had been born

13 in Vukovar and indeed you lived there until November 1991. Is that right?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. Now, I don't want to deal with your parents, as it may reveal

16 confidential information. When you lived in Vukovar, I think it's right

17 to say that you lived with other members of your family. Is that right?

18 A. No, I lived with my mother. However, my grandmother was residing

19 in the same town and she would come to see us very often.

20 Q. All right. We get there by the same route. Thank you very much.

21 Now, may we deal, please, with September of 1991? Where were you living

22 at that particular time, in Vukovar itself?

23 A. In September 1991 I was in the cellar of my home in Vukovar.

24 Q. I want to just go into closed session, if I may, please, to reveal

25 the area and address at which you lived.

1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private session.

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16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

18 MR. MOORE:

19 Q. You've told us that you left your home and you have also told us

20 the district in which you lived. What were the conditions at that time in

21 the area in which you lived? If we deal with September, please.

22 A. In September the war had already begun. There was shelling on a

23 daily basis. I don't believe there was a single day in September I left

24 the cellar. I spent the whole time in the cellar. One risked one's life

25 time one left the cellar. The house had been hit by that time at least

1 once and we were not leaving the cellar at all.

2 Q. What would you say if it was suggested that the houses -- the

3 civilian houses that were being struck in your area were being struck

4 because they were genuine military targets? Now, the houses that you had

5 around you, are you able to assist whether they were used by the military

6 or civilian?

7 A. They were several houses around my house that I knew to be

8 civilian. Some of them were even empty. These were targeted as well. I

9 was there with two other ladies, and I can say that my house and the other

10 houses were targeted. But those were civilian targets.

11 Q. May we deal with collection of water through this period of

12 September, October and November. Now, what was the method of collection

13 of water in and around the Vukovar city?

14 A. Well, the water-supply system was no longer operating and things

15 were getting worse in terms of water over those three months. There were

16 several wells across the town. In September and perhaps early October

17 water tanks driven by the fire brigade people would drive into town to

18 bring water for us civilians and occasionally some food as well.

19 Throughout people would bring their jerrycans to fetch water for

20 themselves but this was extremely dangerous because the wells, the

21 fountains if you like were being targeted, shelled all the time. Where

22 people went for their water. Every time a water tanker arrived - it's an

23 enormous vehicle - and as soon as the vehicles started queuing for water,

24 before long the area would be shelled.

25 Q. Did you have any water-towers in Vukovar at that time?

1 A. Yes, there was a large one. It was targeted all the time,

2 systematically, you might say. It's easy to spot from anywhere in town.

3 It overlooks the surrounding plains and it was easy to see the water-tower

4 being targeted by planes every day. It was all riddled with missiles and

5 bullets.

6 Q. Do you know if there were cisterns in the Vukovar area for

7 collecting water?

8 A. Those belonging to the fire brigade, they would bring them to

9 places where civilians assemble, several hundreds of those. This was at

10 the same time that I went to the neighbourhood of Olajnica, there were

11 probably about 1.000 civilians there. A cistern arrived with drinking

12 water, people brought their jerrycans. Their own bottles, the buckets,

13 that sort of thing, to collect water. These crowds would regularly be

14 targeted, would regularly be targeted whenever water was brought in. Many

15 firemen were killed when this sort of thing happened.

16 Q. And just to finish this topic, how would you describe the living

17 conditions for civilians at that time?

18 A. Very difficult. There was no food, and people's stocks had run

19 out. There was no electricity, so all the food went bad in a matter of

20 days because none of the fridges and freezers could be used. The shops

21 were not open for business anymore. There were a few still open, but it

22 was a risky enterprise to go there. Therefore, civilians were facing a

23 dire food shortage and this was especially the case with water. The

24 general level of personal hygiene was pretty low, you might say, simply

25 because, there, there was water to use. And everything else was running

1 out too. More and more, day by day. Even relieving ourselves was very

2 difficult under the conditions. There were people who were wounded or

3 killed while out trying to respond to the call of nature.

4 Q. May I deal then with what you were doing at that time. Were you

5 involved in any way in assisting what are called the defenders of Vukovar?

6 A. I left my house on the 15th of December with my mother.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the 15th of September.

8 A. And we went to the shelter in the Olajnica neighbourhood. I

9 stayed there throughout until I joined the defence. My task was to look

10 after the civilians, try to procure food and water and to set up the

11 guards. There were jerrycans with several hundred -- with several

12 thousand litres of drinking water so we guarded these water tanks at

13 night. And we looked after those civilians there as of the 15th of

14 September, like I said.

15 MR. MOORE:

16 Q. I think it's right to say that your mother unfortunately was shot,

17 but not killed. Is that correct?

18 A. That's correct. On the 8th of November a car arrived from the

19 hospital. They said that blood donors were required, since there were a

20 great many wounded being brought in. My mother and I volunteered, as well

21 as two other ladies. So the five of us drove there in a Fica. Once we

22 reached the clearing outside Olajnica there was a barrage of fire, a burst

23 of gun-fire. My mother was wounded as a result. She was taken to the

24 hospital and it was established that she had sustained a wound to her

25 liver. She stayed in the hospital throughout this time, and I myself

1 returned to Olajnica as soon as I could.

2 Q. May we on, please, to the date of the 18th of November, which has

3 been widely accepted as the date when the Croatian forces surrendered.

4 Now, on the 18th of November, where were you located, please?

5 A. The 18th and the night between the 18th the 19th, I was in the

6 nuclear shelter at Olajnica. Over 500 civilians had already gathered

7 there. Those who had been hiding in the surrounding buildings, and they

8 now came to the shelter because the buildings were ablaze. They had

9 nowhere else to go. I spent the entire day on the 18th and the morning of

10 the 19th at Olajnica.

11 Q. And did you eventually leave Olajnica?

12 A. On the 19th in the morning a large group left Olajnica, a group of

13 civilians. A woman came in a white Zastava passenger vehicle and she said

14 that those who wanted to go towards Serbia and to join the army, they

15 should go towards the marketplace and those who opted to go to Croatia

16 should go to the hospital.

17 Q. Could you just stop for a moment?

18 A. My mother had been wounded by that time.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

21 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Borovic.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to intervene for some

23 technical reasons to try and assist Mr. Moore. When the witness mentioned

24 a woman who came with -- in a white Zastava vehicle or perhaps the witness

25 meant that she had a white flag, being the same word in the B/C/S.

1 Perhaps we could clarify that, whether the type of the car was Zastava or

2 whether the woman was actually carrying a flag.

3 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much, Mr. Borovic.

4 Mr. Moore.

5 MR. MOORE: My learned friend is correct and I'm grateful for

6 that.

7 Q. Witness, it is a matter of translation sometimes. I asked you

8 whether in actual fact you remained in Olajnica. Would you be kind enough

9 to give your evidence again, please, just what exactly what happened?

10 Thank you very much.

11 A. That woman came there with a white flag; a piece of cloth,

12 literally speaking.

13 Q. And what did she say to you?

14 A. She said that those who wished to go towards Serbia and the army,

15 they should go towards the marketplace and those who wanted to go to

16 Croatia should go to the hospital. And then people went their respective

17 ways.

18 Q. Where did you go to, please?

19 A. My mother had been wounded by that time, as I've explained, and

20 for that reason I went to the hospital, to be with her. I also believed

21 that in the hospital there would be some sort of transport organised for

22 the wounded, and that I would be allowed to leave with them.

23 Q. Now, why did you believe that there would be transport organised

24 for the wounded and that you, who were not wounded, would be able to

25 leave?

1 A. At the first moment my only thought was to be joined with my

2 mother. When we reached the hospital on the 19th in the morning, there

3 were great numbers of people there, and the rumour had it that the wounded

4 were going to be transported with the assistance of some international

5 organisations to Croatia. Someone there told me to stay with my mother

6 and that I was to help with the putting of the wounded on the buses and

7 trucks and that I would be allowed to leave to Croatia with them.

8 Q. Was there any information about where those people were going to

9 be taken in the -- in the convoy?

10 A. People were saying that they were to go to Zagreb, or rather to

11 that part of Croatia that had not been affected by the war.

12 Q. Let us now deal with the topic of the hospital and the environment

13 of the hospital. You arrived on the 19th. Did you see any JNA soldiers

14 at the hospital or people in military uniform? When I say people in

15 military uniform, I mean either irregulars or regular soldiers. From the

16 Serbian side.

17 A. When we arrived there were a lot of people, civilians, there. As

18 we were entering I saw several soldiers in uniforms who were positioned

19 around the courtyard, and they were armed. When I entered the hospital

20 building, that night I saw several other uniformed people who walked

21 inside the building. I went in and I looked for my mother, and

22 subsequently stayed with her. On the 19th in the afternoon large groups

23 of people started moving towards Velepromet because they were told to do

24 so. That there were to be trucks to be there. I was one of the last to

25 leave, and a woman at that time told me that there is an option for me

1 that I might be transported with the wounded, as an assistant. Therefore,

2 I stayed there during that night between the 19th and the 20th.

3 Q. In the answer that you have given you used the phrase, "I saw

4 several other uniformed people who walked inside the building." Are you

5 able to be more precise about those other people in uniform, if you are

6 able to assess whether they are regular soldiers, irregular soldiers,

7 whether they had weapons. Can you paint a picture for us?

8 A. There were actually two or three men inside the building. They

9 wore camouflage uniforms, but they were from Vukovar. They walked between

10 the civilians who were in the hall of the hospital, which was full to the

11 brim. And they were looking for someone. I believe one of them was

12 looking for his brother. They went through the hospital that evening, and

13 then they left the building some 10 minutes ago [as interpreted]. They

14 wore camouflage uniforms, or rather parts of those uniforms were mixed,

15 some were camouflage, some were of single colour.

16 Q. Can you remember if they were armed or not?

17 A. Yes, they were.

18 Q. Let us move on then, please, to the morning of the 20th. Now, can

19 you deal with that day, please, what is your first recollection for that

20 day?

21 A. On the 20th in the morning when we woke up a JNA officer came to

22 the hall of the hospital. He wore standard-issue uniform, but I couldn't

23 recognise his rank. He said that all males who could walk should come

24 outside. Before people started moving they read out a list of names of

25 the people who were taken out before we were. There were three Dosen

1 brothers on the list. Then someone by the name of Harlan, as well as some

2 other names. They were taken out of the hall before the other people

3 were. Then all the males who could walk followed. We went to the rear

4 entrance of the hospital, and were put next to a wall where the ambulances

5 used to come.

6 Q. Thank you very much. I want to deal, if I may, you said that

7 there was a JNA officer. Are you able to describe, for example his build

8 or height?

9 A. He was around 170 centimetres tall, built heavily, and with grey

10 hair.

11 Q. And are you -- you said that he was an officer. Why did you come

12 to the conclusion that he was an officer as opposed to another rank?

13 A. On his shoulders he had yellow stars and some other markings used

14 to mark an officer rank, but I couldn't tell what his rank was, because I

15 never was in the armed forces.

16 Q. You used the phrase in your evidence, "They read out a list."

17 Now, when you use the word "they," whom do you mean?

18 A. I meant the officer who came in. He was reading out from that

19 list, and one could hear from the corridor that names were being called

20 out as well.

21 Q. You have, mentioned for example the Dosen brothers and you have

22 mentioned I think the name of Harlan. I think it's right to say that in

23 due course you compiled various statements and one of those statements was

24 a handwritten document where you wrote down a number of names. Now, it

25 may have application now, but it certainly has application later on. Do

1 you remember the document that you wrote? It's been shown to you before

2 you came into court.

3 A. I do remember that document. Perhaps my memory could be refreshed

4 if I were given an opportunity to see it again.

5 Q. I think it's also right to say, and I'll deal with that statement

6 in a minute if I may, but you also compiled a statement for the office of

7 the Prosecution in June 1995 where you have given a number of names.

8 Would you seek to refresh your memory from that document, if leave was

9 given?

10 A. That was 11 years ago, and back in 1995 my memory and my images

11 were far better, and jogging my memory here today would help.

12 Q. Your Honour, I would seek leave for the witness to be shown the

13 handwritten document at this time to try and ascertain when it was that

14 document was compiled, because I have not actually asked him that. And

15 then I would seek leave for him to look at that document, to refresh his

16 memory, to see if it assists and again I would seek leave in relation to

17 the 1995 document, the Office of the Prosecutor that's got names included

18 as well. Obviously one is 11 years ago, but I suspect that the other one

19 may even be older and closer to the time when the incident occurred.

20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Please proceed, Mr. Moore.

21 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. I wonder if this document could

22 be shown. It's ERN number 0033-4450. And it should be available for

23 e-court as well. Apparently not. If it goes on to the ELMO, I think that

24 can be one way.

25 Q. Can you just look at that document, please? Can you remember --

1 it's 1992, I see, in relation to the -- to the incident, which clearly an

2 error. But can you remember when it was you think that you wrote that

3 document?

4 A. The date is wrong. It must have been a typo. It was on the 20th

5 of November, 1991. That document could have been made sometime in 1992.

6 Q. Thank you. If you could just set that aside. And then I would

7 like you to be shown your witness statement, which you compiled for the

8 Office of the Prosecutor in 1995. If you could be shown, please, the --

9 the witness statement before we move on. I want to deal with the

10 authenticating of the documents before we move to the content.

11 Now, have you been given an OTP witness statement which is dated

12 the 19th of June, 1995? If you look at the very front you'll see the

13 details.

14 A. Yes, that is the statement.

15 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, it is probably prudent to put this into

16 private session, bearing in mind the name is at the bottom.

17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private.

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25 [Open session]

1 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

2 MR. MOORE:

3 Q. Can you tell us, please, what happened to the individuals whose

4 names were called out?

5 A. They were taken out and they left before we did, I don't know what

6 happened to them later on. One of those whose names was called out but

7 didn't leave with that first group was Tomislav Baumgertner. They left

8 first and then I don't know what happened with the group.

9 Q. How well did you know Tomislav Baumgertner at that time?

10 A. Quite well. We used to be neighbours. I knew him from seeing him

11 in town, I knew his father, his sister. He was an athlete like myself, so

12 we knew each other quite well, and I believe we're even peers. We were

13 born in the same year.

14 Q. Of the people who were taken away, what were the nationalities?

15 Can you remember? Were they all Croats? A mixture? Can you just tell

16 us, please?

17 A. They were all Croats.

18 Q. Now, when this list was called out, what was the next matter that

19 caught your attention, please?

20 A. After that we began moving out, and we stood next to the wall I

21 mentioned. One of the names was Harlan. I don't know whether that was

22 the person wounded in his leg. Maybe so. In any case, one of the persons

23 from the list was wounded in his leg, and he was approached by the

24 officer, the JNA officer I mentioned. He asked him if he was in pain, and

25 he used a pen or a stick to touch his wound. I believe his toes were

1 wounded, but his wound must have been bigger because his foot was

2 bandaged. And the wounded person began moaning as the wound was being

3 touched.

4 Q. What happened then after that, please?

5 A. After that we went out and stood by the wall. There were several

6 hundred people there, men who could walk. Some officers appeared, and one

7 of them gave a speech. He told us that we were to be searched and

8 transported. Those who were guilty will be charged and those who would

9 not be found guilty would be released.

10 There was a tall officer with a moustache wearing a Tito cap. He

11 faced the crowd, and he was the person giving the speech. There were

12 large numbers of soldiers there, they were quite young. They were regular

13 soldiers who carried out the searches.

14 There were also some local TO members in various uniform there,

15 they were all from Vukovar. The officer occasionally addressed the person

16 next to him addressing him with, "Captain Radic, carry out this search,"

17 and he basically issued orders to him and the other one obeyed.

18 Q. I want to deal with the tall officer with the moustache. How

19 close were you to the tall officer with the moustache?

20 A. I was quite close, facing him. I don't know whether at that

21 moment I knew him to be Sljivancanin. I believe I learned that later on

22 from the media. In any case, at that moment we were vis-a-vis perhaps two

23 to three metres apart. He was just in front of me.

24 Q. Well, let's deal with this area of evidence in perhaps more

25 detail. You have said that the man that you believed to be Sljivancanin,

1 the officer, was two to three metres in front of you. Did he remain in

2 that position for any period of time? Are you able to assess that period?

3 A. I believe it lasted for about a quarter of an hour. That was the

4 time during which he delivered the speech and the time he needed to issue

5 orders. And in the meantime people were being frisked, each of them two,

6 some even three times. All objects were taken away, such as keys, pens,

7 lighters, anything that was solid. And he stood there during that time,

8 he moved within a few metres, and he was giving that speech and issuing

9 orders.

10 Q. How would you describe his manner?

11 A. He stood upright, had a soldier-like posture as he gave the

12 speech, and issued orders. I would say it was a typical soldier-like

13 conduct.

14 Q. And if one was trying to assess height, how tall was that officer

15 with the moustache?

16 A. At least 190 centimetres, maybe even a few more. So quite high,

17 quite tall. A very tall, upright-standing man, quite a presence in his

18 uniform.

19 Q. And what about the attitude that he had when he was dealing with

20 them, the orders and the people in the hospital?

21 A. He had an authoritative attitude, issuing orders and letting us

22 know that he was the main person there. Nobody dared interrupt him. He

23 was the main figure there in that area standing in front of those people.

24 Q. You have told us that he was giving orders and you used the name

25 Captain Radic. Did you personally actually hear him use the

1 phrase, "Captain Radic," or is it something you've been told?

2 A. He wasn't issuing orders to soldiers, but rather to the men

3 standing next to him. He addressed him as Captain Radic. He said that

4 several times, four to five times, maybe even more. And I could hear it

5 clearly.

6 Q. Can I just clarify this: Is it a case of hearing orders four or

7 five times or actually hearing the name Captain Radic four or five times?

8 Can you clarify?

9 A. The sentences were always linked. For example, he would

10 say, "Captain Radic, search the people. Captain Radic, do this." And he

11 mentioned this or said this several times.

12 Q. You have told us that there were regular JNA soldiers at that

13 time. You used the phrase "frisking" but you also mentioned to us that

14 there were, I believe, TO members who were present also. Now, how did you

15 know there were TO members present at that time?

16 A. Because they were in Vukovar. And they were originally from

17 Vukovar, they were local people. They wore the uniforms which were

18 partially JNA uniform and occasionally they would wear headgear that

19 wasn't part of a uniform or they would wear a jacket that wasn't standard

20 uniform issue, and they were quite unkempt, they had long hair. Whereas

21 regular soldiers had all -- were all with short hair. Regular soldiers

22 were also younger, and this is how I could tell that these men were TO

23 members.

24 Q. And what were the TO members doing at the hospital that morning?

25 A. Moving around, talking. Some of them even threatened people.

1 People that they would recognise, be it their neighbours or somebody else.

2 Q. Did you see Captain Radic or Sljivancanin give orders to them, to

3 the TO members?

4 A. No, no. That wasn't the case.

5 Q. With regard to the TO members, how long did they remain at the

6 hospital?

7 A. Up until we left in buses. They stayed behind after we left.

8 Q. The TO members that you said had threatened individuals, did you

9 ever see any action being taken to remove them from the hospital or to

10 get them to stop threatening the patients?

11 A. No. Nothing was done. They could move about freely through the

12 crowd. They entered the hospital building, came out, nobody asked them

13 anything or told them anything.

14 Q. Can we deal then, please, with the buses themselves. I think

15 it's right to say you eventually got on a bus. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And of the number of buses there, were you at the front or the

18 back; can you remember?

19 A. I was either in the last bus or the one before the last, as the

20 buses were lined in a column. And there were a total of five or six of

21 them, I'm not sure.

22 Q. Before we leave the hospital, I just want to deal with the

23 gentlemen that you say was called Captain Radic. Can you remember the way

24 he was dressed at that time?

25 A. He had a uniform which was of one colour, and I think that he had

1 a baret cap on him.

2 Q. Can you remember the colour of the beret cap?

3 A. Dark red. Dark red. Bordeaux colour.

4 Q. Can you remember anything about his build or height or facial

5 features.

6 A. I think he was about 180 centimetres tall. Quite strongly built,

7 and had a moustache, as far as I could see. Quite a strongly-built man.

8 Q. When we talk about moustaches, as I suspect we all know from

9 photographs, there can be various types. Can you assist us what -- how

10 thick the moustache was or the size? And if you can't, please say so.

11 A. Thin moustache, not distinct, not pronounced moustache. Quite a

12 thin one. Sljivancanin, for example, had a more pronounced moustache.

13 Q. I'll deal with Sljivancanin when we're on the topic. How did

14 you -- why do you believe that the tall man giving the orders to everyone,

15 apparently in charge, was the name of Sljivancanin? Where did you get

16 that name from, please?

17 A. I can't know about when I learned his name. Later on I saw him on

18 television, and that's when I knew that that was the man who had stood in

19 front of me. It was said then that that was Sljivancanin. Now, whether I

20 knew that at the time, I really couldn't say.

21 Q. And finally this: You say that you saw a man called, as you

22 believe, Sljivancanin. You saw Radic, and the name being called out on

23 several occasions. If one was talking about the observation period for

24 Radic, how long did you see him for? Can you estimate time again?

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes, Mr. Borovic.

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I hope Mr. Moore won't take it

3 against me. They did not do this or say this several times. The witness

4 only said that he heard him address Captain Radic four or five times, but

5 based on Mr. Moore's question, one could conclude that everybody else did

6 the same. I think that this question is a leading one.

7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Moore, can you clarify, please?

8 MR. MOORE: Firstly, I would submit it is not a leading question,

9 because I'm asking him to estimate time that he saw the gentleman that he

10 believed was called Captain Radic. So I'm trying to focus the witness

11 specifically on the person, and I just want an answer to the period. And

12 I would submit that is not a leading question.

13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Please proceed, Mr. Moore.

14 MR. MOORE:

15 Q. Are you able to assess how long it was you saw the gentleman that

16 you believed was called Captain Radic?

17 A. Just as long as the man issuing orders. He stood next to him the

18 whole time. So we are talking of some 15 to 20 minutes.

19 Q. May we then move on to the buses and the convoy of buses. We know

20 that it went to the JNA barracks, there is no great secret about that.

21 How many people do you estimate were actually in your bus at that time?

22 A. All of them were full, and each had about 50 seats. So five or

23 six buses times the seats would be about 300 people.

24 Q. May we deal with individuals whom you saw and recognised within

25 your bus. So can you remember the names of people that you saw inside

1 your bus?

2 A. Next to me was Franjo Nadj two men with the last name Simunovic

3 were in front of me and then I think there was Martic Ivan in one part of

4 the bus. I knew some other people by sight but I didn't know their names.

5 Q. That is your bus. May we deal, please, with individuals that you

6 may have recognised in other buses?

7 A. Passing by a bus on my way to my bus I saw through the window

8 Sinisa Glavasevic, whom I knew as a journalist of Radio Vukovar. I don't

9 remember other people from other buses.

10 Q. Now, was there anything that caught your attention about Sinisa

11 Glavasevic?

12 A. Except for the fact that I knew him, during the war he would come

13 to Olajnica and we would give him some food. He had a wound on his cheek,

14 a shrapnel wound, so he had a large bandage, gauze, taped on his cheek.

15 He sat on the bus looking out.

16 Q. Before leaving the hospital in the bus did you at any time see any

17 member of the International Red Cross come to the hospital?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Are you able to assess -- perhaps a better way of putting it, and

20 I'll ask you it in a different way. When you got to the barracks what way

21 were the buses parked?

22 A. They were parked in a semi-circle, one after the other, in the

23 yard of the barracks.

24 Q. And can you tell the Court what happened when the buses arrived

25 at the barracks? Can you, as I have said in the past, try and paint a

1 verbal picture for us?

2 A. When we got there we spent some two to three hours in the

3 barracks. I can't be certain about the time. We sat on the buses the

4 whole time. And around the buses there was a lot of noise and a lot of, a

5 lot of people wearing all kinds of uniforms; camouflage, single-colour

6 uniforms and so on. At any rate, all of them wore uniforms. They moved

7 between the buses, threatened, waved with knives, some of them took

8 pictures holding knives between their teeth as though it was some kind of

9 a trophy. And then they broke into a closet

10 containing civilian protection equipment and took shoveled and axes out

11 of the closet, and then they broke them off because they just wanted the

12 handles. And then they would wave around the handles and threaten us.

13 And then one of them started even sharpening the knives and we could hear

14 the sound of knives being sharpened. All the time there was an armed

15 guard on the bus, as well as a driver. So the whole atmosphere was

16 intimidating. People were terrified.

17 Q. While you were at the JNA barracks did you see any regular JNA

18 officer or officers present?

19 A. In the crowd of people wearing uniforms I saw no officers until

20 the same Captain Radic from the hospital got on the bus carrying some kind

21 of a list. Then he read out several names off the list, and these people

22 got off the bus. Simunovic was among them, and Martic, as far as I could

23 remember. There were perhaps some other names, but I don't recall them.

24 These people got off the bus, and got on to another bus. As they walked

25 from one bus to the other, they were beaten by the uniformed individuals.

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

2 microphones, the interpreters have trouble hearing him.

3 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Excuse me, sir. Could you come a bit

4 closer to the microphone?

5 MR. MOORE:

6 Q. Can we deal with Captain Radic. You've told us that he got on to

7 the bus with a list. Now ...

8 A. Yes. He got on to the bus and stood next to the driver, to the

9 driver's seat. And then he read off several names off that list.

10 Q. Can you remember the names themselves? I know you have mentioned

11 two. Can you remember the others?

12 A. Simunovic, there were two of them, I don't know their first names.

13 But last name was Simunovic. They were relatives. And then Ivan was also

14 called out. And these people got off the bus. Perhaps there were some

15 other names that were read out, but I don't remember that.

16 Q. You have told us about the behaviour outside the bus, I needn't

17 repeat it. But you said that people were terrified. How carefully were

18 you looking at the man you say was Captain Radic when he came on to the

19 bus to read the list?

20 A. When he got on the bus and stood next to the driver's seat, I sat

21 by the back door. As I'm quite tall, I could see over the heads of other

22 people and I could see him clearly, especially since I had seen him not

23 long prior to that. It is then that I realised that that was the same

24 man. What was especially significant was that he read out names, and all

25 of us listened very carefully as he was reading out names and as he was

1 talking. At that time we still didn't know whether those people would be

2 killed or saved, we didn't know that. We were both scared a great deal

3 for our own lives. We didn't know whether we would be killed. But there

4 was also a minor trace of hope that he would perhaps read your name out,

5 and that that would lead to a salvation of some sort. So all of us kept

6 staring the a the name reading out the names and we listened to him very

7 attentively.

8 Q. You've told us about the behaviour and the threats and I'll deal

9 with that in due course, outside the bus. Did you at any time see anyone

10 try to stop that behaviour or remove those individuals away from the bus

11 and behaving in the intimidating way that they did?

12 A. Outside and in the compound of the barracks they acted quite

13 freely, nobody said anything to them. They did what they pleased. There

14 were two or three of them in a uniform who got on to the bus. However,

15 the guard who was armed wouldn't let them in. Then they started telling

16 us why on earth had we done that and so on. Then one of them came and

17 told us not to worry, that he was cutting off only noses and ears. So

18 that's what they did. They came to the entrance door, gave their speech,

19 and then got off. As for others who were outside, they acted savagely and

20 did what they wanted.

21 Q. Were you able to recognise any of the faces of the people who were

22 behaving this way?

23 A. I knew some of the people from Vukovar who were there outside

24 acting in this way and wearing uniforms. I knew them by sight, I don't

25 remember their names.

1 Q. How long do you think you stayed at the barracks in the buses? I

2 know it's very, very difficult to estimate time in those circumstances.

3 A. As I didn't have a watch on me, and as I was very much afraid, it

4 was difficult to estimate the period of time. But I think it was two to

5 three hours.

6 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I'm going to move on to a different

7 topic, and I would respectfully submit this might be a good time to have a

8 break. It's two minutes early, I think.

9 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Very well. We will resume at a quarter

10 past.

11 MR. MOORE: I think there is said to be a redaction, has there

12 not. There was a document, was there not, that was shown?

13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: No.

14 MR. MOORE: It was not shown, all right.

15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: A quarter past

16 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.20 a.m.

18 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Moore. Taking into account that the

19 tapes only run for one hour an and a half, we may have to stop at 10 to.

20 Unless we can go on to 1.00. Can we? Very good. Sorry.

21 MR. MOORE: That's no problem. May I deal with Grujic? The

22 witness Grujic is available to come next week, but that will create

23 difficulties for him. It also creates difficulties for other witnesses

24 who have got other time constraints. I only hope my friends can finish

25 this week.

1 Q. May I just move on, then, Witness, please. You told us that you

2 were at the JNA barracks. I want to deal with the time that you left the

3 JNA barracks. When you went to the Ovcara area, how many buses went, as

4 far as you can remember?

5 A. I remember that there were four or five buses.

6 Q. And when you arrived at Ovcara, can you tell us what happened,

7 please?

8 A. When we arrived at Ovcara we travelled across the fields and we

9 arrived outside a hangar where agricultural machines were kept. When we

10 arrived, the buses were lined up in front of the hangar and people were

11 getting off, one by one. As soon as someone got off the bus they would be

12 made to run a gauntlet. What this means is that on either side of the

13 driveway to the hangar there were about a dozen people in uniforms beating

14 those passing through quite brutally. Those running the gauntlet were

15 brutally beaten with clubs, the clubs that they had got from the barracks.

16 The people running the gauntlet were also kicked, hit with rifle-butts,

17 and punched.

18 At the end of the gauntlet their documents were taken off them, as

19 well as money or any other valuables. We were forced to take off our

20 jackets, our clothes, and leave them on a heap by the driveway. At this

21 point we entered the hangar where the beating continued. All those

22 entering were beaten by another group of five uniformed persons.

23 Q. I just want to deal with this piece of evidence in more detail.

24 You've told us that the buses left the JNA barracks but you'd equally

25 informed us that there had been -- I seem to remember, if I'm wrong I

1 apologise, that there were young JNA soldiers on the bus at the time.

2 Now, if I'm wrong about that, can you remember if there were any soldiers

3 on the bus travelling from the barracks to Ovcara?

4 A. On the way to Ovcara there was a driver, and that same uniformed

5 soldier who had been with us all the way from the hospital, the guard.

6 Q. And if we're talking about the guard and the age of the guard, are

7 you able to indicate his age or whether his hair was short or long? Can

8 you assist us, please?

9 A. Aged about 20, hair short. Aged about 20, hair short.

10 Closely-cropped, quite neat. Medium build. I don't think I could

11 possibly remember the face.

12 Q. Thank you. I'm not asking you to remember the face. When we're

13 talking about the gauntlet you informed us about -- about a dozen people

14 in uniform, is the phrase that you used. Are you able to assist us in

15 what sort of uniforms that the people were wearing who were in the

16 gauntlet?

17 A. I said about 20, maybe I mispronounced. A dozen on either side,

18 or about 10 on either side. A total of about 20. They were wearing all

19 kinds of uniforms. Some were wearing camouflage uniforms, some had

20 civilian jackets on, bearded individuals, disheveled, wearing fur hats

21 with cockades. Most of them had camouflage trousers on, and boots. Some

22 were standard-issue boots and some were yellow Wellies, the civilian kind.

23 It was a mixture of all sorts of uniforms there, really.

24 Q. When I deal with this area of evidence, I'm going to try, or ask

25 you to try and distinguish between young soldiers, soldiers perhaps of

1 more mature years with longer hair and individuals who have got beards or

2 cockades, to try and just clarify who is doing what. Now, you've told us

3 that there were all sorts of uniforms. When you were at the hangar, and

4 indeed prior to going into the hangar, did you see any young soldiers at

5 the hangar during this period?

6 A. There were perhaps one or two who could be defined as young

7 soldiers wearing standard-issue JNA uniforms. However, there were several

8 men from Vukovar who were wearing mixed uniforms. And those who were not

9 familiar, who wore beards, and were quite neglected. They were wearing

10 fur hats with cockades. They had a different kind of uniform, all sorts.

11 The belt, for example, might be a military belt, but the uniform itself a

12 more civilian-looking one. It was that type of a mixture.

13 Several locals from Vukovar wearing military uniforms, those were

14 on the older side. They were TO men. Likewise there were those wearing

15 standard-issue uniforms whom I didn't recognise because they had come from

16 elsewhere. There were those wearing combined uniforms with cockades,

17 which denotes their Chetnik affiliation. Bearded men with fur hats and

18 cockades.

19 Q. When you refer to Vukovar TO, you've told us about the gauntlet.

20 Did you see any members of the Vukovar TO in the gauntlet who were

21 attacking people as they went through?

22 A. At the end of the gauntlet there was one man who was taking the

23 valuables off people, and money, too. There may have been someone else,

24 but I don't remember. As you're passing through the gauntlet itself, you

25 don't really have a good opportunity to have a look around. You just keep

1 your head down, trying to get beaten as least as possible.

2 Q. And how severe were the blows or the beatings going through that

3 gauntlet?

4 A. Quite brutal. There were about 20 people, a total of 20 people

5 doing the beating. If each kicks you or hits you two or three times,

6 kicks you, punches you, hits you, cracks you with a club, it's a very

7 short distance, but the beating you are subjected to over that short

8 distance can, in fact, be quite severe.

9 Q. You told us about once when -- when you went into the hangar

10 itself there were about five people who beat you there. Can you remember

11 if you recognised those people who were beating inside the hangar?

12 A. I'm talking about the section of the hangar that I got into.

13 There were five of them there, but there were more at the far end, in

14 other parts of the hangar. Those five at the door were meeting, as it

15 were, everybody who came in. As soon as I was inside, one of them ran

16 towards me and smashed my glasses with a police truncheon. I shook what

17 was left of my glasses off the bridge of my nose. I think there was a

18 total of five men in that group. They kept beating me and as a new person

19 came in, they kept beating this new arrival. This and happened the same

20 time someone time entered the hangar. Whenever they saw someone who was

21 on the young side, a youngish person, they would say things like he had

22 been slitting the throats of Serbian children, and then they would get

23 down do it and start beating that person and say that someone was a sharp

24 shooter they came up with all these stories just to have a reason to beat

25 these people.

1 There was one from that group who asked if there were any

2 Albanians among us. One person came forward, Kemal Saiti, whereupon he

3 received a brutal beating. Two or three of them at first, and then this

4 one man took over, as it were, and gave him a brutal hiding. He threw him

5 down to the ground and he kicked the man's head as a football player would

6 a ball. He kicked him all over his body. He jumped on top of him with

7 his feet. Kemal's body remained there, lying lifelessly. He was bleeding

8 from the mouth and from the ears. I can't say for sure whether he died on

9 the spot. It's not for me to say. But he looked entirely lifeless, and

10 he was bleeding but his body was no longer reacting.

11 Another man, man of strong build, came in. His name was Damjan

12 Samardzic. They kicked him too, and jumped all over his body until his

13 body was just lying there, lifeless. At the far end of the hangar they

14 were beating some other people. All the while the beating went on. All

15 the while inside the hangar I was in the section of the hangar where there

16 was straw on the floor. We were standing in the middle, and there was a

17 JNA officer with a whistle. He would blow the whistle, and then yell for

18 them to stop the beatings. But then he would turn and face one of those

19 who were beating the people in there, and it was quite clear that nothing

20 much would happen, because there were sounds of people being beaten to

21 death, and that was clear enough for anyone to hear, but he was just

22 hanging around the centre of the hangar.

23 Q. Did you see any other people in the hangar through this period who

24 you considered were officers?

25 A. In addition to that officer I have mentioned, there were one or

1 two other men who I believed to be officers because of the ranks displayed

2 on their shoulder-straps. They were wearing standard-issue JNA uniforms,

3 and were on the older side.

4 Q. As far as you are aware, were you able to distinguish between what

5 I will call regular JNA officers and TO officers at that time?

6 A. Well, I don't know that the TO had any officers to begin with, or

7 at least not that I knew of. I didn't know much about their structure or

8 any chain of command that they might have had. I don't think they had any

9 officers, true and proper. The rest of the officers were quite

10 distinctive because they had those yellow stars, yellow marks on their

11 shoulder-straps denoting a person's rank and marking that person out as

12 a -- JNA officers. I don't know about the ranks themselves. I'm not very

13 good at distinguishing those.

14 Q. Just for clarification, did you see any person there who you

15 thought had yellow stars indicating that they might be an officer? Or

16 not?

17 A. Well, yes. The ones I'm talking about, there were two or three of

18 those that I mentioned as JNA officers, and they had those marks.

19 Q. Did you see any members of the Vukovar TO inside the hangar?

20 A. There were several. One was in that group comprising five men.

21 He beat people there and he also beat up a wounded youngster. He was

22 beating everyone, but that young man in particular, because he happened to

23 be his neighbour.

24 Inside the hangar, later on, I saw another two beating people,

25 including that man who singled me out from the crowd and saved me, who was

1 also wearing a regular uniform but said that he was a TO man.

2 Q. Can you tell us what weapons you saw being used inside the hangar?

3 A. Blunt objects. Sticks and handles taken off spades, chains, axes,

4 police truncheons, pickaxes, they even seized the crutches of the ill or

5 wounded and used those, rifle-butts. They kicked people, they punched

6 people. So much for the weapons that they used to beat people with.

7 Q. And how severe were the beatings inside that hangar through this

8 period?

9 A. As severe as one could possibly imagine. They killed two of them

10 and all the others were bleeding. They had bleeding noses and heads.

11 Some were bleeding and some weren't, but everybody was beaten black and

12 blue. Those two probably were killed, died as a result of the beating

13 that they had been subjected to.

14 Q. You have told us about -- the phrase that you used was a "wounded

15 youngster." Now, can you tell us his name?

16 A. Damir Kovacic. He was wounded, he had a lung wound. He had only

17 just begun to walk again. He was lying in hospital several beds down the

18 hall from my mother. I used to know him before the war, so that's why I

19 recognised him. He was lying in his hospital bed, I knew who he was, and

20 he was also inside the hangar, just two or three metres away from me. He

21 was a member of the Croatian army. And this man was beating him,

22 saying, "What on earth did you do that for?" "Why did you have to go and

23 join the guards?" And then he continued kicking him.

24 Between Damir and myself, there was a man named Tomislav Pap. He

25 asked for a bandage from the soldiers to dress his wounds with, but nobody

1 offered a bandage. And then he put some paper on top of the lung wound

2 which had begun to bleed again because now this was a fresh wound.

3 Q. If one is talking about Damir's age, and I don't want you to say

4 your date of birth, but you know, obviously, when you were born. Was he

5 older or younger than you at that time?

6 A. He was about two or three years my senior.

7 Q. What happened to Damir? Are you able to say? When I say that, in

8 relation to the hangar itself.

9 A. He was beaten and then he would fall. He started spitting blood

10 and there were blood stains on his shirt. His wound underneath the shirt

11 was spurting blood, and then this man started beating him again and then

12 they told us to sit down on the straw. We were told this by the officer

13 standing in the middle of the hangar, and once he was told to sit down, he

14 did.

15 I was then single out and told to stand by the door. At this

16 point in time I was no longer able to see Damir and I don't know what

17 became to him.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, could the witness please be

19 asked to either sit closer to the microphone or speak up a little. Thank

20 you.

21 MR. MOORE:

22 Q. You have told us about the attack on Damir, and you were told by

23 the officer standing in the middle of the hangar that you were to sit

24 down, or he was told to sit down. Did you ever see the officer in any way

25 try to exercise some restraint or to stop the attacks upon the individuals

1 who had arrived from the hospital?

2 A. They were yelling for them to stop beating people. I think this

3 was at a point in time when they were busy beating Kemal, but he would

4 just come in, say that, and leave. It wasn't spoken with any sort of

5 authority. Not to be taken seriously. It seemed more like mockery to us.

6 Those were sarcastic appeals. He would say, "Stop, stop beating them."

7 Meanwhile another man was jumping on another person's lifeless body, so he

8 could not meant it, could he.

9 Q. Can we deal then with your situation. Did you receive any

10 injuries at this time, either at the barracks or at Ovcara?

11 A. There was no physical contact at the barracks, at least not with

12 most of the wounded or the people on the buses, except for those whose

13 names were read out from that list. And then while they were being taken

14 to the other bus, they were being beaten along the way.

15 As for myself, as anybody else in that gauntlet, as I said, two

16 times 20, or two times 10 men, with all sorts of blunt objects, so that

17 was a lot of beating. Once I was inside the hangar this man who smashed

18 my glasses with a truncheon, my temple bone burst. I still have a scar.

19 I still have scars all over my body. I had bruises, contusions, but

20 nothing was actually fractured, apart from my temple.

21 Q. Did you see any communication between the officers at any time

22 whilst you were at the Ovcara hangar?

23 A. I didn't notice any major communication going on.

24 Q. May I just deal then with one other area. Are you able to assist

25 the Court in relation to whether there were any lists compiled or not?

1 A. When I was singled out, at first I was told to stand by the door

2 inside. After that I was sent outside the hangar and again told to stand

3 by the door, but outside this time. When I arrived there, Igor Kacic was

4 already standing there outside.

5 As time went by other people arrived, forming a group of nine

6 persons. We were standing outside for at least an hour, perhaps even

7 longer. It's difficult for me to be very specific about how long. One of

8 the younger uniformed men, I don't think he was a regular soldier though;

9 he looked more like TO, drew up a list with the names of those nine

10 persons on two slips of paper, on two sheets, the same names on both. And

11 he said, or rather he held this list and took us back into the

12 hangar. He gave one of those sheets containing names to the officer

13 there. He called him a State Security Service officer, a security

14 officer. He called him something along these lines. He gave one of the

15 two sheets to him, he said that we were loyal citizens, and that he would

16 save us, that we were no criminals or anything like that. He kept the

17 other sheet for himself. The officer put the list away and we left the

18 hangar.

19 So much for the list. That is at least what I could see inside

20 and around the hangar.

21 Q. I would like to deal with how it was you were singled out and

22 removed from the hangar. That being the case, I would like to go into

23 private session, if I may, please.

24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private.

25 [Private session]

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11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

13 MR. MOORE:

14 Q. I want to return, if I may, to the hangar itself and what I will

15 call the Vukovar TO. Now, did you recognise and are you able to name any

16 of the Vukovar TO people who were present at the hangar?

17 A. Inside the hangar there was Guja, Miroslav Savic, and Goran

18 Mugosa, but I saw him in front of the hangar. Then in front of the hangar

19 I also saw Stjepan Zoric and Nebojsa Zoric. Son and father.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, father and son.

21 A. Those are all the names that I can remember right now.

22 Q. Can you remember or did you see anybody who you considered was in

23 charge of the Vukovar TO at that time?

24 A. There was a man with a hat, a leather hat. He used to be a taxi

25 driver by the name Stanko, and at that time I couldn't have known that he

1 was one of the leaders of the TO. They called someone by the name,

2 Miroljub. He seemed to have been a leader of sorts, but I don't know who

3 he was, and I didn't know whether he indeed was a leader.

4 MR. MOORE: Will the Court permit to check one fact for a moment?

5 [Prosecution counsel confer].

6 MR. MOORE:

7 Q. I'd like to draw your attention to the document that I referred to

8 fairly early in my examination-in-chief. It's on the -- I think it's call

9 the ELMO. Could that be raised, please. And I would like this to go into

10 closed session, if I may, please. Or private session?

11 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Closed session please. Private session,

12 yes.

13 [Private session]

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8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

10 MR. MOORE:

11 Q. You have told us about being taken outside. Now, can I deal with

12 the lighting at the time, because it's obviously difficult to estimate

13 time in such circumstances. When you went outside and were waiting beside

14 the hangar, are you able to say it was daylight, dusk, or night? Can you

15 assist us with that?

16 A. When we came there, it was daylight. As we waited in front of the

17 hangar it was dusk. And it was completely dark by the moment we left on

18 the van. When we were driving it was completely dark.

19 Q. Did you hear any machines operating at that time?

20 A. When we were in front of the hangar I heard some heavy machinery

21 working immediately close by and another one a bit further away.

22 Q. May we deal now with your trip back. How many people were in the

23 van with you at that time, approximately?

24 A. There was the group of seven, plus the driver and I believe

25 another person who was with him. We went back the same way to Vukovar.

1 First we were taken to one of the gates at Velepromet. They were told

2 that there was no room there, and then we moved on. We were taken

3 eventually to Modateks. We came there in the evening, there were around

4 300 women there. A lot of them I knew, because they were at Olajnica

5 during the war. The seven of us were put on a large marble table that

6 was -- that had previously been used to stretch out fabric, since that was

7 a textile factory. That's where we spent the night, on that table.

8 Q. In your evidence, when you were describing the route from the JNA

9 barracks to Ovcara, you used the phrase, that you went "across the

10 fields." Now, what did you mean by you went "across the fields," because

11 you then describe going back the same route.

12 A. Once one leaves the barracks, when travelling on that road, you

13 reach Negoslavci, then you turn left; it's an asphalt road. And around it

14 there were fields of arable land of the then Vupik complex. So these were

15 large plots of agricultural land. And initially it was just a dirt road,

16 but later on they covered it in asphalt so that the agricultural machinery

17 could travel on it. And then once you reach Ovcara you turn right and

18 that takes you right to the hangar.

19 Q. Now, are you saying that you went into Negoslavci before turning

20 left or go in the direction of Negoslavci?

21 A. In the direction of Negoslavci. We didn't reach Negoslavci.

22 Q. I'm not going to ask you about that anymore. May we deal then

23 with when you're at Modateks. Now, did you, when I say "you" I mean you

24 personally, leave Modateks?

25 A. I left Modateks on the following day, the 21st. In the morning,

1 once we woke up, several people approached us. That whole night we were

2 guarded by armed guards. In that compound there were a number of armed,

3 uniformed soldiers. In the morning when we woke up several people came.

4 One of them, I think he introduced himself as a JNA officer. I think

5 that's how I knew that. He had a uniform on him, except for McCloud

6 [phoen] type jacket. He had a Macedonian accent and I believe there was a

7 great likelihood he was a Macedonian. He questioned us about our names,

8 where we lived, and what our ethnic background was. The others stood

9 there observing it. Among them there was a girl wearing a standard-issue

10 uniform of the JNA. She was from Vukovar and she was a younger person,

11 and I would say that she belonged to the Vukovar TO.

12 During that questioning, or immediately thereafter, Savic Miroslav

13 came to fetch me and he took me from that group, so I was the first one to

14 leave the group. He took me to a house in Svetozara Markovica Street.

15 Q. Did you have any indication from anyone or were you ever told by

16 anyone what happened to the group of people at Ovcara while you were at

17 that address?

18 A. I was there on the 14th of December. Members of the Vukovar TO

19 would come on a daily basis and interrogate me. I knew all of these

20 people from before, some of them were my age and some were older. They

21 wanted to know what I had seen from the other side of the front line.

22 They questioned me daily about what had taken place, who had done what,

23 and so on. Sometimes there were two or three of them, and I generally

24 wouldn't ask anything of them. I would simply tell my story. On one

25 occasion I managed to ask Miroslav Savic, whom I trusted to some extent

1 because he had saved me, about what had happened to the people at Ovcara.

2 And he said to me, "All of them are under grass."

3 And that was the only sentence that was some indication to me of

4 the fate of those people. After that I never asked anything again.

5 MR. MOORE: Will the Court permit me -- I'm almost finished. I

6 just want to clarify one matter.

7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 MR. MOORE:

9 Q. I'd like you to look at Exhibit 205, please, which is a

10 photograph. I hope that is now visible.

11 Do you know, or have you ever seen this person before?

12 A. This is the person that was addressed as Captain Radic. I saw him

13 at the hospital, and on the bus at the barracks.

14 MR. MOORE: I have no further questions. Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

16 Mr. Vasic.

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just need a

18 couple of moments to organise myself.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, Your Honours, I would like to make one

20 correction for the record. The pseudonym sheet for Witness P-030 is

21 actually Exhibit 526 under seal and not Exhibit 525 under seal as

22 previously announced. Thank you.

23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much.

24 I see Mr. Vasic getting ready.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I hope that

1 these microphones which are longer now, will enable us to communicate more

2 efficiently and enable the interpreters to hear us better.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic:

4 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Miroslav Vasic, I am one of

5 Defence counsel of Mr. Mrksic. I will be putting questions to you. But

6 before that I have to ask you something. Both of us speak the same

7 language, so I would like to ask you to make a short pause before you

8 answer my questions so that the interpreters can interpret both my

9 question and your answer, which in turn would ensure that the record is

10 accurate and that everybody else can follow the transcript.

11 First of all, I'd like to cover some technical details relating to

12 the statements given by you.

13 Your Honours, can we go into private session, briefly, please.

14 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private.

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Your Honours, I

22 think our time is up.

23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Our time has come indeed.

24 Sir, Witness, we will continue with the cross-examination tomorrow

25 and we are going to suspend our hearing for today. So we will resume

1 tomorrow, at 9.30 tomorrow morning.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.01 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 31st day of May,

4 2006, at 9.30 a.m.

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