Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9899

1 Thursday, 1 June 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Could I remind you that the

7 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence still applies.

8 Mr. Moore.

9 WITNESS: WITNESS P-030 [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, may we please go into private session.

12 Various matters that would reveal the witness's identity.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9900











11 Pages 9900-9907 redacted. Private session.















Page 9908

1 [Open session]

2 MR. MOORE: May I repeat, I have no further questions for the

3 witness.

4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Moore.

6 You will be pleased to know that that concludes the questions that

7 are to be asked of you in this trial. The Chamber would like to thank you

8 for the assistance that you've given and your attendance here, and you are

9 of course now free to go back to your home and your other interests. So

10 thank you indeed. The court officer will show you out. If you wait just

11 a moment, we will close the shutters while you leave the courtroom.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

14 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, counsel.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MR. SMITH: Our next witness is Ivan Grujic and I'd would like to

17 call him now.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

19 MR. SMITH: In relation to -- there's a binder of materials which

20 I think have been provided to the Defence -- and in hard copy --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please move closer to the

22 microphone for the sake of the interpreters.

23 MR. SMITH: I'll move in a little closer, Your Honour.

24 Binders have been distributed to Defence counsel, and I will ask

25 that they be distributed to Your Honours and the registry officials. They

Page 9909

1 relate to the documents that will be tendered through the witness today.

2 The documents will also be tendered in e-court. The purpose of

3 the binder is to keep things as efficient as possible. There are a large

4 amount of documents that won't be in the binder but an index to those

5 documents are at the front. And we would be tendering those documents in

6 e-court.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Mr. Grujic. Would you please read

9 aloud the affirmation on the card that is shown to you now.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Smith.

16 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Examination by Mr. Smith:

18 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you please state your full name and

19 your position at the moment?

20 A. Good morning. My name is Ivan Grujic. Currently I'm employed as

21 assistant minister in the Ministry for the families -- for Families,

22 Defenders and Intergenerational Solidarity in the office for missing

23 persons. I am also the president of the governmental commission for

24 missing persons.

25 Q. In your capacity in this position, were you asked to prepare a

Page 9910

1 report by the Office of the Prosecutor for the Milosevic case in relation

2 to your administration's activities dealing with missing and detained

3 people as well as in relation to the findings you made on the basis of

4 your records?

5 A. That's correct. Pursuant to a request of the ICTY, I compiled

6 such a report and submitted it.

7 Q. And in relation to that report, did you testify in the Milosevic

8 case as an expert witness in March 2003?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And subsequently in the -- and subsequently in the Martic case

11 this year, did you testify as an expert witness and also prepare an

12 updated report from 2003 in relation to the same matters?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And I have distributed a binder of materials, of which you have a

15 copy. And I would ask that you turn to tab 1.2, please. Or 1.1. And the

16 ERN number is 0468-7742 to 0468-7757.

17 Is this a copy of your updated report?

18 A. Yes, it is. Complete, yes.

19 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender that report. The 2003

20 report was submitted later last year, but a copy of the updated report was

21 provided to the Defence early last week, and it's updated only in a few

22 minor areas.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. It will be received.

24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 530, Your Honours.

25 MR. SMITH: I also seek to tender, Your Honour, some attachments

Page 9911

1 to that report, and the first attachment can be found at tab 1.2, and it's

2 a decree on the establishment and work of a commission for tracing persons

3 missing in the war operations in the Republic of Croatia. The B/C/S

4 number is 0117-6631 to 6633. This is an attachment referred to in the

5 witness's report.

6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 531, Your Honour.

8 MR. SMITH: I also seek to tender at tab 1.3, this is an

9 attachment 2.f. to the witness's report, it's the Decree on the Internal

10 Organisation of the Ministry of Family, Defenders and Intergenerational

11 Solidarity Administration for Detained and Missing Persons. The ERN

12 number is 0469-0799 to 0469-0802.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document will be Exhibit 532.

15 MR. SMITH: I also seek to tender at tab 1.4, this is attachment A

16 to the report, and it's entitled Republic of Croatia, government decision

17 to form the Republic of Croatia government commission for detained and

18 missing persons. And the ERN number is 0469-0796 to 0469-0798.

19 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 533, Your Honour.

21 MR. SMITH: I also seek to tender at tab 1.5, this is

22 attachment 14A to the expert report. This is an organigramme of those

23 taking part in exhumations. The B/C/S number is 0469-6078, 0469-6079.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 534, Your Honour.

Page 9912

1 MR. SMITH: I also seek to tender tab 1.6, which is

2 attachment 6.a. This is the Commission for Detained and Missing Persons,

3 copy of questionnaire on missing persons. The B/C/S ERN number is

4 0469-3240 to 0469-3251.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 535, Your Honours.

7 MR. SMITH: I also seek to tender the transcript of this witness

8 in the Milosevic case dated the 3rd to the 4th of March, 2003. The ERN

9 number is one complete range, 0504-5454 to 0504-5591.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 536, Your Honour.

12 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. Before we commence with the

13 witness, I would ask that the witness be allowed to use the binder which

14 he has, which is slightly different to Your Honours' and Defence counsel

15 in the sense that it contains annotations and notes which he has made to

16 prepare himself for this testimony. It will be -- the binder can be

17 available for review at any time.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received. Are you not wanting it

19 tendered.

20 MR. SMITH: Not to tender, it's just working notes that --

21 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. It won't be received.

22 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

23 Q. Mr. Grujic, I would like to ask you some aspects -- about some

24 particular aspects of the report that you have written and firstly in

25 relation to your qualifications, your educational qualifications. Can you

Page 9913

1 briefly explain what post-secondary education you have had in your career?

2 A. I am a graduate criminologist, and I also have a degree in traffic

3 engineering. Of course I have also passed the exam to work in government

4 administration, and I have a certificate from the Ministry of the

5 Interior. All this is in my statement. The entire chronology of my

6 training and education and professional degrees is in the statement.

7 Q. Thank you. And in the statement you refer to some specialist

8 police training that you had undertaken while serving with the Ministry of

9 the Interior. Can you briefly explain what that specialist police

10 training was?

11 A. This was intelligence and counter-intelligence training in the

12 Ministry of the Interior. That was a one-year course which I mentioned

13 right away, and at the end of it I received a diploma.

14 Q. Thank you. And you also state your work experience in your expert

15 report. But in brief summary can you state your work experience?

16 A. Very briefly, from 1972 I worked in the police, and I worked on

17 almost all the jobs that exist in the police. I was a policeman on the

18 beat, I was a clerk, I was an inspector, I was an independent inspector in

19 charge of a whole police unit --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, police station.

21 A. -- during the war. Then I was transferred to the Ministry of

22 Defence where I did the same work until 1993 when, by a decision of the

23 government, I was appointed president of the commission for missing

24 persons. From 1993 onwards, I have been dealing exclusively with issues

25 of missing persons. From 1993 until today, that is.

Page 9914

1 Q. And in addition to missing persons, also in relation to detained

2 persons; is that correct?

3 A. This is linked. There are two ways one can find a missing person.

4 One can find a missing person alive, because for whatever reason they lost

5 contact with their family, but we managed to find that person; or we find

6 that the person is a prisoner and then we take measures to have the person

7 released. On the other hand, a missing person can be found dead. In that

8 case, one has to establish where the corpse is, exhume it, identify it,

9 and confirm that this is the missing person in question. In that case,

10 the missing person is removed from the list of missing persons being

11 sought. Therefore, an investigation is conducted into the fate of every

12 missing person.

13 Q. Thank you. And in relation to your first employment with the

14 commission for detainees and missing persons in 1993, you have stated that

15 you were made president of that commission. Can you give a brief

16 description of how that commission has evolved over time from that date,

17 1993, to 2006? And also can you give a brief summary of what preceded

18 that commission prior to 1993 in terms of those types of activities? It's

19 in your statement, but just if you can briefly summarise.

20 A. I'll try to present this very briefly.

21 In 1991 the government of the Republic of Croatia realised that in

22 the Republic of Croatia there are 18.000 missing persons recorded in

23 Croatia. Pursuant to its positive legislation, it decided to create an

24 administrative body to attempt to deal with this problem. In 1991 the

25 commission for searching for missing persons was established. Its main

Page 9915

1 task was to gather and process information about civilian and other

2 victims and missing persons from the territory of the Republic of Croatia.

3 That is the definition.

4 As it was observed that the information was in a state of chaos,

5 more or less, on the 13th of May, 1993, the government decided to

6 establish a governmental commission which would be directly responsible to

7 the government, and I was appointed head of that commission. The

8 commission had three main lines of activity: The exchange of prisoners;

9 supervision of the treatment and accommodation of prisoners of war; and

10 gathering and processing information about missing persons.

11 As the government administration developed, there were internal

12 changes, and in the year 2000 this commission grew into a government

13 bureau for prisoners and missing persons. Its tasks were identical to

14 those of the commission, and the government again appointed me head of

15 that office.

16 As the government administration developed further and was

17 reorganised in 2004, the office of the government stopped its work and an

18 administration for prisoners and missing persons was established within

19 the Ministry for the Family, Defenders and Intergenerational Solidarity,

20 and I was appointed assistant minister.

21 As it was observed that there were certain problems arising due to

22 coordination between the different ministries, because more than one

23 ministry is involved in this task, the cabinet decided to establish, in

24 parallel with this administration, also a commission of the government of

25 Croatia, as an interministry body, and after this commission was

Page 9916

1 established I was appointed its president. I was the president of the

2 commission.

3 Q. Thank you. So in short, for the last 13 years you have been

4 concentrating your professional career on the location of missing people

5 and the identification of detained people, et cetera. Is that correct?

6 A. Precisely so. In every form of organisation from 1993 to date, I

7 have headed government bodies dealing with the search for missing persons.

8 Q. And as part of that role in your report you referred to your

9 commission or administration's involvement in the supervision and the

10 conduct of exhumations in Croatia; is that correct?

11 A. That's correct. Not only the supervision of the exhumations, but

12 the commission or the body dealing with this in 1993 primarily organised

13 the exhumation but also kept records pertaining to the exhumations. These

14 were two sets of records. One was the record of mortal remains, and the

15 other were records of identification of these mortal remains. These were

16 two sets of records maintained by the government administration.

17 Q. Thank you. And you stated earlier that prior to 1993 there was a

18 commission for missing people, and then also in your report you state

19 there was a commission for captured -- captured people in the war; is that

20 correct?

21 A. That is correct. As I said, in 1991 a commission for searching

22 for missing persons in the war activities in the Republic of Croatia was

23 established, but also a commission was established to look into the

24 treatment of prisoners taken during armed clashes. These two were joined

25 together in the government commission that was established in 1993, or the

Page 9917

1 government office.

2 Q. Thank you. And the mandate of the -- those two commissions and

3 then subsequently in 1993 the one commission and the mandate of your

4 administration now, is it only in relation to detained and missing people

5 arising out of the conflict in Croatia?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. And briefly can you state to the court the period of time the

8 conflict ensued in Croatia?

9 A. According to the records we have, there are several categories of

10 suffering or casualties we will discuss. In the -- in January 1991 the

11 first cases were recorded of victims. The greatest intensity was after

12 June, increasing in September and culminating in December 1991. And then

13 it went on until May 1992 at a somewhat lower intensity. So this went on

14 until mid-1992. Of course after this we have records of missing persons,

15 but much less.

16 Q. And when did military operations of any sort finish in Croatia?

17 What's the end point of the conflict in Croatia?

18 A. The end came in 1995 when military and police operations were

19 undertaken to liberate the occupied territories, and that was when armed

20 conflict practically ceased. But until the end of the peaceful

21 reintegration of the Croatian Danube region, which occurred in 1998, we

22 have records of individual deaths and missing persons. Or rather, no, not

23 missing persons, I apologise, but displaced persons.

24 Q. Thank you. And the Croatian Danube region, that includes Vukovar

25 and Eastern Slavonia; is that correct? Just briefly.

Page 9918

1 A. Yes. The Danube region or the Podunavlje is the area through

2 which the River Danube flows. That refers to Baranja and part of Eastern

3 Slavonia.

4 Q. Thank you. Just briefly can you explain the commission's

5 activities whilst the conflict was occurring in Croatia, say from 1991 to

6 1995, compared to the commission's or the administration's activities

7 after 1995 in relation to detained and missing people?

8 A. With respect to missing and detained persons, there is a

9 continuity in the search, but the activities undertaken change. In 1991

10 until 1993 or 1994, the major method of dealing with these cases was

11 release of prisoners from camps and prisons. This was done through

12 negotiations with the opposite side or with those in whose power the

13 detainees were, in cooperation with the ICRC. And exchanges were carried

14 out and the prisoners released. Most of these prisoners were released by

15 1994.

16 It then became apparent that the remaining missing persons would

17 unfortunately most likely be found in mass graves, and ultimately this

18 proved to be correct. In 1996, therefore -- excuse me, 1995, a team was

19 formed to conduct exhumations, and they began to conduct exhumations in

20 the previously occupied areas of Croatia. 142 mass graves were found, and

21 in this way we began to find missing persons.

22 Therefore, the method of finding or the way in which these persons

23 were found changed and records were kept in the administration, depending

24 on the methods used.

25 Q. Thank you. And why were exhumation teams on an exhumation team

Page 9919

1 only formed in 1995 and not before that? Did anything prevent that from

2 happening?

3 A. Well, you see, earlier on such teams were not necessary. It was

4 quite obvious that all the mass graves hitherto found had come into

5 existence in the temporarily occupied territories of the Republic of

6 Croatia. This is when the need arose to set up a team like that and to

7 start the exhumations.

8 Needless to say, for as long as the areas were under occupation

9 our own teams, teams under the administration of the Republic of Croatia

10 were not able to reach these areas, were not allowed into these areas.

11 Q. Thank you. And that exhumation process, is that still continuing

12 until the current time, until now?

13 A. Yes. As we speak, another exhumation is getting off the ground in

14 Eastern Slavonia where the ground is being probed for mass graves. Some

15 mortal remains have been observed in the village of Karadzicevo, and all

16 this means is that the exhumations are continuing. We are collecting

17 information on other possible mass grave sites, as there is still a long

18 list of missing persons. Our hope is that we will be able to find most of

19 these remaining missing persons in places like these.

20 Q. Thank you. I would now like to go back to the commission and the

21 administration's activities in relation to detained people. In your

22 report you state that 7.666 people were detained during the conflict or

23 the aggression against Croatia. And you state that 5.013 were of Croat

24 ethnicity. Is that correct?

25 A. Precisely. Since 1991 and all the way until the last operations

Page 9920

1 of liberating the Croatian territories, 7.666 people were set free who had

2 been detained in Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as

3 in temporarily occupied territories of Croatia itself. The last exchange

4 of this type occurred on the 4th of August, 1995.

5 Q. Now, in relation to the records you used to come to that figure,

6 can you explain briefly what those records are, to be able to arrive at

7 that figure?

8 A. All these prisoners were tracked down based on a variety of

9 sources. First of all, there were the exchange lists that were made

10 wherever an exchange took place. And these lists were made before the

11 first commission back in 1991 was ever set up because there were local

12 exchanges that were organised, so to speak, at local levels. Then you had

13 the lists produced by the exchange commission. There was information as

14 well recorded by the ICRC in prisons and camps. These were the principal

15 sources for our own files and records.

16 There are certain limitations, obviously, to this method. In 1991

17 we had wartime conditions, and the administration had not yet been set up

18 properly. Records were made and kept in the only way that was available

19 to us at the time.

20 Aside from that, I must add that the documentation is being added

21 to on a permanent basis. Whenever a former POW needs a document to

22 certify their previous status as such, information is retrieved directly

23 from this person and the person is normally requested to provide a

24 statement. In addition to that, most of those prisoners have undergone

25 medical checks, and once they are released usually there are documents to

Page 9921

1 this effect.

2 Q. And you had access to that documentation to come up with that

3 figure; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. The documentation is an integral part of the archive, of

5 which I am head. It is precisely based on this archive that lists were

6 drawn up, records are kept and permanently updated. Therefore, these

7 records change over time.

8 Q. Thank you. And can you give us an approximate size of the volume

9 of those records in relation to coming to that figure of 7.666, what

10 amount of documentation?

11 A. Well, first and foremost each detainee has his or her own medical

12 history containing all the information that we have. Most of this

13 information has been processed electronically, which means that we

14 have 7.666 files, personal files. Aside from that, there are documents

15 existing in most cases showing how the exchanges occurred and what exactly

16 was done. This is a massive amount of documents. That's as specific as I

17 can be. So much for any documents concerning detainees.

18 Q. Thank you. And if we now can move to the figure that you provide

19 in relation to missing people in relation to Croatia as a whole, currently

20 you list that there's 1140 people that are still recorded as missing in

21 Croatia as a result of the conflict, and 991 of those people are of Croat

22 ethnicity. Is that correct?

23 A. I must make a correction there. Perhaps it was a mistranslation

24 or perhaps I misheard. I'm talking about 1.140 missing persons. Based on

25 information provided by their families, 991 of those are ethnic Croats.

Page 9922

1 Q. Thank you. And what -- what are the sources of your -- what

2 documentation is used to source that figure? Can you describe the type of

3 documentation that's used?

4 A. In order to arrive at this figure we used questionnaires on

5 missing persons. This means that a questionnaire was completed in

6 relation to each and every missing person covering a lot of ground. This

7 means that each missing person has a file, and the person who initiated

8 this procedure to track the missing person down is recorded, the person's

9 name. This is in keeping with the international procedures that are in

10 place in cases like these, as well as those used by the International

11 Red Cross, except that we try to cover a lot more ground and include as

12 most [as interpreted] information as possible on our missing persons.

13 Q. Thank you. And you also state in your report that in 1994 that's

14 when the major campaign was conducted in order to have people report

15 anyone that was missing; is that correct?

16 A. That's correct. Perhaps I can say a few words about this.

17 In 1993 information on missing persons was scarce and insufficient

18 to start a proper search. The Croatian government received a proposal for

19 renewing this request to track down these missing persons. We tried to do

20 the best we could.

21 So the first step we took is -- was to enlist the help of the

22 experts, of computer experts, psychologists and other experts to produce a

23 questionnaire for us, including questions based on which we could pursue

24 our leads, and this is how the questionnaire was created, the

25 questionnaire to track down missing persons. After that we started

Page 9923

1 training staff who would work on this, who would gather information. At

2 the same time there was a media campaign to encourage families to report

3 their own missing persons, and this campaign was conducted both in the

4 printed media and on TV.

5 After that information was gathered in 102 Croatian Red Cross

6 offices, in Consulates across the Republic of Croatia, so these were the

7 places where information was being gathered.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Grujic. That gives us a brief understanding of it.

9 This is explained in much detail in your report. So perhaps maybe if we

10 can move to the figure of people that were reported missing in 1994 after

11 this campaign was conducted. And in your report you state that 3.052

12 people were reported missing and of that number, 2.709 were of Croat

13 ethnicity. Now this is back in 1994. Is that correct?

14 A. That's right. We started this campaign and that was the figure

15 that we arrived at. This meant that we were successful in gathering

16 information on more or less all the missing persons that we knew of.

17 Q. And just briefly, as of this date you state that there are still

18 1140 people recorded as missing in Croatia, or that were living in

19 Croatia. Approximately that 2.000 people that have since been found from

20 1994 to 2006, have most of them been found alive or dead?

21 A. Dead, for the most part.

22 Q. Now, in relation to the missing person report, you attached one of

23 those to your statement, is that correct, a blank missing person report?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. And I think each report contains about six or seven pages; is that

Page 9924

1 right?

2 A. More, I think. I think each report contains 12 pages.

3 Q. And also when a missing person was reported, say back in 1994,

4 were also other documentation attached to that missing person report to

5 assist you in your process of trying to find them?

6 A. Yes. As for these questionnaires, the total number of pages is

7 about 12.500 pages. Plus the documents. We asked each and every family,

8 which you can see in the statement, to provide whatever documents they

9 thought might be helpful in tracking down a missing person. As a result

10 we received photographs, medical files, dental records, records of any

11 previous injuries and a whole series of other documents that families

12 believed might prove helpful in our search. Therefore, in addition to the

13 initial documents, also these family files or documents obtained from

14 families were then added to each file.

15 Q. And that documentation, is that kept at your administration?

16 A. Yes, that's right. It's part of the archive of the administration

17 of which I am head. The questionnaires have been processed

18 electronically, but we also keep hard copies of each and every document

19 and questionnaire.

20 Q. Thank you. If we can now move to exhumations conducted and

21 identifications conducted as a result of them. You state in your report

22 that 3.568 people have been exhumed to this date and 2.982 have been

23 identified; is that correct?

24 A. Precisely.

25 Q. And of the 2.597 that have been identified -- sorry, that's my

Page 9925

1 mistake. Of the 2.982 that have been identified, you state that 2.597 are

2 of Croat ethnicity; is that correct?

3 A. That's correct. This is information provided by families as

4 bodies were identified.

5 Q. And just to be clear, these exhumations only relate to death

6 arising out of the effects of the conflict as opposed to any other natural

7 causes during that time; is that correct?

8 A. That's quite correct. These are mass graves, and victims were

9 found inside these mass graves.

10 Q. Now, does that figure of 3.568, does that just relate to mass

11 graves in Croatia, or does it relate to Croatian victims that were exhumed

12 in other states as well?

13 A. This refers to victims exhumed in the Republic of Croatia, the

14 Croatian territories that were previously occupied, and that's the only

15 thing that these figures refer to.

16 Q. And perhaps if we can take one example of the type of

17 documentation that would be present for a person that was exhumed and

18 subsequently identified. What type of documentation would we expect to

19 see if we wanted to look into one particular case?

20 A. First and foremost, there is an order from the relevant district

21 court to start an exhumation. These orders are part of our documentation.

22 In addition to this, there are records of the exhumation, there are photo

23 files that are made on the spot, there are lists of those involved in the

24 exhumation, and a brief report on the number of victims found.

25 Q. Also would there be autopsy reports for each of the victims

Page 9926

1 exhumed, or only for some of them?

2 A. For each. Each time a body is exhumed there is a procedure that

3 is applied, and each victim has a file containing every step that was

4 taken with the body.

5 The next step is identifying the body. If there is a positive ID,

6 then a certificate of death and a finding concerning the cause of death is

7 added to the person's file, as well as any results of DNA analysis, if

8 that was how the body was eventually identified. So all these go into the

9 file.

10 Q. Thank you. And the files in relation to those exhumed and

11 identified, where are they kept? Are they kept together in one place or

12 in a number of places?

13 A. All these documents are kept in the administration, in our office.

14 In addition to this, the file about the processing of mortal remains is

15 copied and sent to the Institute for Forensic Medicine. They also send

16 feedback to us, the same sort of information, because the government says

17 that we are the relevant body for exhumations and identifying bodies.

18 Q. If you can just give us an idea of the volume of material that

19 would relate to, say, one person that's been exhumed and identified,

20 perhaps in the terms of numbers of pages that would be related to each

21 individual, can you give us an approximate figure of how many pages that

22 would be?

23 A. This would average about 10 pages in relation to each individual.

24 If you include the photographic files, then this adds up to a lot more, I

25 would say.

Page 9927

1 Q. Thank you. In relation to data compilation, compiling data, as

2 you have done in your expert report to be able to come up with these

3 figures, and in relation to record-keeping and analysis, in your

4 experience -- what has been your experience in the commission since 1993

5 in relation to these activities, either your involvement in them or the

6 involvement of members of your staff? Can you explain the type of

7 experience that you may or may not have had in being able to compile these

8 types of figures?

9 A. As I've already pointed out, our administration is in charge of

10 keeping official records. All the data have been processed

11 electronically. Of course we are able to provide statistics on any

12 information that is in our possession. Wherever necessary, we can access

13 our data files and we can complement our previous findings, especially in

14 cases where information is not 100 per cent reliable, but, rather,

15 evaluations are drawn up or assessments are made, analysis conducted,

16 based on such information as happens to be in our possession. All the

17 information that I have provided here, based on our own files, is derived

18 from our files. I was personally involved, and I also supervised some of

19 my staff working on this.

20 Q. In relation to your staff, about how many staff work in the

21 administration at the moment, dealing with detainees and missing persons,

22 on a full-time basis?

23 A. Another five persons are busy doing this in our administration.

24 But I am talking about an administration which is also charged with

25 organising this. When you have an exhumation, when bodies are identified,

Page 9928

1 we enlist the assistance of a large number of other experts, experts from

2 other ministries. From other relevant ministries, I should add. We, the

3 administration, are the coordinating body.

4 Q. Thank you. And in relation to the results of your findings of

5 this Croatia-wide analysis in your report, the people that put those

6 findings or results together, did that include you and other members of

7 this staff of five people that you talk about?

8 A. Yes. Precisely.

9 Q. Are you satisfied with the qualifications of these people that

10 were assisting in putting this data together, do you feel that they were

11 qualified enough to be able to put this data together accurately?

12 A. Yes. That is their fundamental task.

13 Let me try to clarify this. The person in charge of the missing

14 persons files in my administration has access to all information and is

15 authorised to access any file. That is that person's job, that's why that

16 person receives his or her salary, and that applies to everything we do.

17 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. This may be an appropriate

18 time for the break.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

20 We must now have the first adjournment. It will be necessary for

21 it to be a half hour. And it will mean we resume at 11.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

25 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 9929

1 Q. Mr. Grujic, before the break we discussed the figures that you

2 have arrived at in your report about the effects of the conflict on

3 detained, missing and exhumed people in Croatia. I'd now like to turn to

4 the figure that you arrive at in relation to the number of people killed

5 in the conflict. And in that report you state that there was 12.078

6 people killed, and 7.012 were of Croat ethnicity, and then there were

7 4.179 of unknown ethnicity, and then you state some further smaller

8 numbers in relation to other ethnic groups.

9 The question I ask you is: How did you arrive at that figure of

10 people killed, and what types of documentation did you use or have access

11 to to support that figure?

12 A. In the year 2002, the government of the Republic of Croatia

13 entrusted to my administration the task of making a provisional list - and

14 I emphasise a provisional list - of persons killed in the Republic of

15 Croatia. The previous lists were not very good. In order to achieve a

16 unified provisional list, we used the lists of the Ministry of Health and

17 the lists of the Ministry of Family, Defenders and Intergenerational

18 Solidarity. The former referred -- or, rather, the latter referred to

19 civilians, and the former to members of the armed forces. By collating

20 these lists, we arrived at the figure we have here today. We added to

21 those two lists persons exhumed and identified and recorded in our

22 administration, so that three lists were actually used to generate this

23 list, and it's a list subject to change.

24 This list has its limitations. You yourself have noted that the

25 ethnic make-up is provided for only about two-thirds of these persons.

Page 9930

1 That's because a lot of data is missing. And the remaining information

2 has yet to be collected in order to achieve the best possible results.

3 Q. Thank you. And the Ministry of Health list, are you saying that

4 relates to civilians or to members of the armed forces?

5 A. This relates to civilians for the most part. They made this list

6 by obtaining names and -- first and last names from the ground, from the

7 Vukovar area and other occupied areas during the conflict. They could not

8 get good quality information. It was only first and last names without

9 other details. That's what could be done at the time.

10 Q. Thank you. And Ministry of Health list, do you have the

11 underlying documentation that was used to come up with that Ministry of

12 Health list, or do you just have the Ministry of Health list?

13 A. No, we don't have the underlying documentation. This task

14 involved employees of the Ministry of Health working on this issue. That

15 is a department called the department for information and investigation.

16 They provided us a list containing all the parameters they had at their

17 disposal about each person.

18 Q. Thank you. And in relation to the list provided by the Ministry

19 of Family, Defenders and Intergenerational Solidarity, that list, do you

20 have that at your administration?

21 A. No. This information was of the same kind as the information

22 obtained from the Ministry of Health. But this was done within the

23 ministry of which my administration is a part, and the information is

24 there in the ministry because their families achieved their rights and

25 benefits through this ministry, and therefore the information is more

Page 9931

1 complete.

2 Q. So is it fair to say that the three lists from the Ministry of

3 Health, the Ministry of Family, Defenders and Intergenerational Solidarity

4 and your information in relation to those exhumed and identified, the

5 results of those lists were combined and put together, and that's how you

6 determined the figure in this report of the numbers killed in the

7 conflict?

8 A. Precisely so. These three lists were put together, so this is a

9 result of these three lists.

10 Q. Thank you. And in relation to the figure of displaced people that

11 you state were displaced as a result of the conflict in Croatia, in your

12 report you state that 230.338 were displaced and of that, of that number,

13 205.215 were of Croatian ethnicity.

14 A. Yes. According to the official information of the administration

15 dealing with these issues, the total number of displaced is to 230.338,

16 and of these, 205.215 are of Croat ethnicity.

17 Q. And in the English translation of your report the word "displaced"

18 is used. When this term "displaced" is used, can you describe further

19 whether these people were displaced of their own choice or displaced by

20 force? How do you use that word "displaced"?

21 A. The word in Croatian is "expellee," and this can be seen in the

22 file. This means that they left their residence by force, and that they

23 were accommodated within the country in which they were expelled from

24 their homes.

25 The other category is that of refugees, and those are persons who

Page 9932

1 were outside the Republic of Croatia. These are the two categories

2 covered by the two different terms, "displaced" and "refugees."

3 Q. Thank you. And what documentation did you use to arrive at that

4 figure?

5 A. When information is gathered about missing persons, there is a

6 questionnaire whether -- we ask whether the family of the missing person

7 is displaced or not. And other information is sought from the

8 administration for displaced persons and refugees, and they gave us the

9 official data I have presented here. This data is public, it is

10 published.

11 Q. Thank you. And in relation to the data that the administration

12 for displaced persons and refugees gave you, did they give you the

13 documentation on which their figure was based or did they just give you

14 the figure?

15 A. No, they just forwarded to us the documents, numbers and

16 statistics. It would have not have been possible for them to forward all

17 the details because, as you can see, it's 200.000 files and supporting

18 materials with these. And this would amount to half a million documents,

19 and you can't forward that volume, it wouldn't be possible.

20 Q. Okay. When you say 200.000 files, that's an approximate figure.

21 Are you stating that for each of the displaced people or each of the

22 expelled people in Croatia then there is a file on each one of them? And

23 I'm referring to the figure of 230.338.

24 A. 220.338, that's the correct number. Each of these persons, each

25 of these 220.338, had their personal file of a displaced person, including

Page 9933

1 the time and circumstances in which they were expelled from their home,

2 the temporary accommodation provided by the state, the donations provided

3 by the state for their survival, everything concerning their status. All

4 of this is contained in their file. There is a file to support each

5 person contained in this figure. That's absolutely true. Each person has

6 a file.

7 Q. Thank you. I apologise. I misquoted the number. You're right,

8 it's 220.338 in your report.

9 Have you seen one of those files?

10 A. Yes, I have, of course. One should know that the administration

11 for displaced persons is an integral part of the state administration,

12 just as my administration is, and we are in constant contact, exchanging

13 information, because most of the families of missing persons are displaced

14 persons. So this is a kind of double victimisation.

15 Q. Thank you. But in relation to the files kept by the

16 administration for refugees, about how many pages would they have on each

17 individual -- on each expelled person? How many pages would be in each

18 file, approximately?

19 A. The fundamental document is the two-page questionnaire. In

20 addition to that, they have a number of various documents showing their

21 revenues, decisions on their accommodation, and so on and so forth. So

22 there are a number of additional documents. But the basis for the

23 statistics, that is the two-page questionnaire.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Grujic, in relation to your report it's perhaps

25 sometimes unclear whether or not the results in relation to expelled,

Page 9934

1 missing, detained, killed, exhumed, relate to the total figure of those

2 people in the conflict in Croatia or whether or not those figures largely

3 refer to, as you state in your report in a number of places, the

4 aggression against the State of Croatia. And in further places in your

5 report you refer to access to exhumation sites was gained after the

6 liberation of previously occupied areas of the Republic of Croatia.

7 I would just like to ask you some questions about this aggression

8 against the State of Croatia, because you seem to relate a number of your

9 figures to that activity, and I'm referring to certainly your figure of

10 displaced people and your figure of killed people. You relate that to

11 this aggression. So I'm going to ask you a series of questions about that

12 so that we can put these figures in some sort of context.

13 When you refer to the aggression against the State of Croatia, can

14 you state when this aggression commenced and when it ceased? Just

15 briefly, please.

16 A. The law on Croatian defenders defines this as the period from

17 the 5th of August, 1990 to the 30th of June, 1996.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure of the last year.

19 A. We can go category by category and say that the first missing

20 person, I'm referring to our official facts now, the first such person was

21 recorded on the 10th of April, 1991. The first prisoner was recorded on

22 the 23rd of January, 1991. The first person killed was recorded on

23 the 31st of March, 1991.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. That is, therefore, the period from the beginning of 1991. It

Page 9935

1 grew in intensity and culminated between July when Baranja was occupied

2 and part of Slavonia, and the 1st of May, 1992. That was the period of

3 the greatest victimisation.

4 Q. Thank you. It was unclear from the -- from your answer whether or

5 not this -- you stated that the -- under the law, under the Croatian law

6 whether or not it was stated that the aggression finished on the 30th of

7 June, 1996. Was that the correct year?

8 A. That refers to the possible consequences caused for people because

9 of the aggression. Yes, that is the last date under which the law gives

10 people rights they can claim as a result of the aggression. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. And based on your records that you have available to

12 you in your office, can you just briefly state the areas in Croatia where

13 this aggression occurred? Very briefly, please.

14 A. Based on the documentation I have available, and not based on my

15 personal observation, one-third of the Republic of Croatia, approximately,

16 was occupied. Its eastern part was occupied encompassing Baranja,

17 Eastern Slavonia and part of Srijem. That is the Danube region. Then

18 Western Slavonia was occupied, the Banovina area, Lika, stretching all the

19 way to the Dalmatian hinterland, as well as the hinterland of Dubrovnik.

20 Q. Thank you. Again, to put these figures in context, briefly, very

21 briefly, can you state what form this aggression took?

22 A. This was armed aggression, leading to casualties, leading to

23 people being expelled from their homes. People being killed, either due

24 to artillery fire or direct fire. People being taken off to prison camps

25 and prisons. And these were a single system in Serbia and Montenegro, and

Page 9936

1 in the occupied areas, as well as in Bosnia.

2 In this area many people went missing. As I said, in 1994, when

3 many of the problems had been solved, there were 3.052 left, and today we

4 are still looking for 1.140 persons.

5 However, looking at it by area, everything I am mentioning,

6 killed, expelled, imprisoned, missing, 50 per cent of these figures relate

7 to the Danube region, approximately.

8 Q. Thank you. And in the same brief fashion, from your records can

9 you describe who were the aggressors and who were the occupiers of this

10 area? In very brief terms, please.

11 A. The occupation was carried out by members of paramilitary units

12 and the Yugoslav army.

13 Q. And the paramilitary units, are you able to say what the ethnic

14 composition, in the main, of those units were?

15 A. I cannot say of what ethnicity they were, because I don't have

16 this data. But it's evident that they were members of paramilitary

17 formations bearing various names.

18 Q. And if you can state those names briefly, please.

19 A. I can recall several of them now. Arkan's men, the Red Berets,

20 the White Eagles. Those are the names I can recall now. The milicija,

21 Martic's men.

22 Q. Thank you. From your records -- you have just described who were

23 the aggressors in relation to your report, but can you state who caused in

24 general terms the expulsion, killing and detention during this aggression

25 in Croatia? Are you saying that it's the same group as the aggressors

Page 9937

1 that you just referred to or some other group or groups?

2 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this witness is being asked to

5 give a response which goes beyond his expertise and the topic of his

6 testimony. We have had various other experts as well as witnesses who

7 could testify directly about the political context. This witness should

8 not be asked such questions because, if he is, many areas for

9 cross-examination which will be opened up, which are not actually the

10 subject of his report.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith.

12 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this witness has access to, as you are

13 aware, large amount of records relating to the activity of the

14 displacement, the expulsion, the killing, et cetera. And that's central

15 to his report. All I'm asking is a question as to, from his information

16 that he has received, not his own opinion, who was responsible for those

17 activities on the basis of the reports and the documentation that he's

18 received.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith, it's one thing for this man from his

20 work and expertise to say these things have been discovered, this is what

21 they disclose and what we have found about deaths and so forth and who is

22 missing. You are now asking him, as Mr. Lukic says, to go into, I

23 anticipate, the political situation and/or the military situation, which

24 is something a good distance, I would have thought, from the primary basis

25 of his work and his experience.

Page 9938

1 MR. SMITH: In terms of going to it in detail, that's not the

2 purpose.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yeah, but why do you need it in general? How is it

4 going to help us? We might ask a range of people to come and answer that

5 question, and they would give us a great variety of answers of not a great

6 deal of value.

7 MR. SMITH: I understand that, Your Honour. The only thing I can

8 say in response is that Mr. Grujic is a witness that is coming here to

9 provide evidence of the records that he has, and in those records this

10 type of information is contained.

11 JUDGE PARKER: We think that the concern of Mr. Lukic is

12 well-founded, Mr. Smith.

13 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Grujic, perhaps if we can go back to the individuals that are

15 referred to in your report, the ones that have been expelled, killed,

16 missing, detained, are you able to say what the -- whether there was a

17 majority ethnic group that supports those figures or what comprises those

18 figures across the board? And if so, if -- which ethnic group is it?

19 A. Based on our information, the information in our possession, which

20 in turn is based on official data, the greatest number of victims across

21 the different categories happen to be Croats, and the percentage is

22 consistently over 80 per cent in all the different categories. Depending

23 on the category, they are followed by Serbs and ethnic Hungarians. But

24 they may -- they are part of the remaining 20 per cent, the Croats

25 accounting for the bulk, the 80 per cent. I can specify in relation to

Page 9939

1 each category, those killed, 88 per cent, for example.

2 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Grujic. But we can look at the report

3 in relation to that information.

4 But one question I'd like to ask you is that in relation to a

5 number of these figures of these groups that we've just discussed, the

6 figure is broken down into defenders, members of civilian protection,

7 civilians, others, and unknown. Now I'm talking in relation to people

8 expelled, killed, detained, missing, et cetera. Can you briefly explain

9 the definition of defender that was used to be able to create that

10 category? Just very briefly, please.

11 A. Briefly, defenders are members of the armed forces of the Republic

12 of Croatia.

13 Q. And members of the civilian protection, if you can briefly explain

14 who they were?

15 A. As an illustration, people like firemen, various council

16 officials, that sort of thing.

17 Q. And -- thank you. And civilians?

18 A. Civilians are persons who were in no way involved in the armed

19 combat. Nor could they in any way be linked to any of the armed forces

20 active in the area.

21 Q. Thank you. And the information that -- as to each individual,

22 whether they fall into a particular category, did that come from the

23 documentation that you had access to?

24 A. All the information here is based on documents. All our data were

25 used, and this depended on the completeness of information contained in

Page 9940

1 our questionnaires, based on which we drew up the stats.

2 Q. And regarding the status of a particular victim, whether it be

3 someone that is missing, displaced or detained, or killed, do certain

4 benefits flow from that status in terms of financial benefits to the

5 families of people that have a member killed? And I mean to say: Do

6 different financial benefits flow if someone is categorised as a civilian

7 or a defender?

8 A. Needless to say, there is a distinction there. One thing I have

9 to say, though, is that it is not our place, not up to my administration

10 to determine a person's status or their category. Persons categorised as

11 defenders deserve to be categorised as such because they were members of

12 the armed forces. Of course they have certain entitlements as a result of

13 this. It is in the best interests of every individual who was a member of

14 the armed forces to prove this in order to be able to exercise his

15 entitlements. The entitlements, of course, are of a financial nature.

16 Civilians enjoy no such entitlements.

17 Q. Thank you. Another brief topic about your report, and that's in

18 relation to a statement that you make that exhumation sites -- access was

19 gained to exhumation sites after the liberation of previously occupied

20 areas in the Republic of Croatia. Now, when you state this in your

21 report, are you referring to that area of one-third of Croatia that was

22 occupied as a result of the aggression?

23 A. That is precisely what I had in mind. But no access was possible

24 to those areas until such time as they were liberated. Or rather, access

25 was allowed to the Danube area once the peaceful reintegration process was

Page 9941

1 under way.

2 Q. Thank you. And so we can put these figures into context, can you

3 tell us when these areas were liberated from your records and how they

4 were liberated and who liberated them? Very briefly, please.

5 A. In 1995 the occupied territories were liberated. Eastern Slavonia

6 was the first, while Banovina, Lika and the Croatian south followed. All

7 of this happened in 1995. The peaceful integration process was completed

8 in 1998, as is a generally known fact. And I'm talking about the Danube

9 region now.

10 Q. And from your records, are you able to say which areas were

11 forcefully liberated and which areas were peacefully liberated?

12 A. Of course I can. I signed one of the agreements with UNTAES that

13 involved missing persons. Therefore, I am quite familiar with the areas

14 under UN protection or where the UN forces were operating. I know when

15 they eventually handed over these areas to the Croatian authorities.

16 Q. Thank you. But if you can briefly state which areas were

17 forcefully liberated, by use of force?

18 A. The following areas were liberated by the use of force: Western

19 Slavonia, Banovina, Lika and the Croatian south. The Dalmatian

20 hinterland.

21 Q. Thank you. And I assume it was the Croatian government forces

22 that liberated those areas; is that correct?

23 A. The armed forces of the Republic of Croatia, Croatia's legitimate

24 armed forces in a legitimate operation whereby their own territories were

25 liberated.

Page 9942

1 Q. Thank you. And in relation to those particular territories that

2 were liberated by force, is it fair to say that the ethnic majority in

3 those areas, those occupied areas, was of the Serb group, Croatian Serbs?

4 A. One could put it that way, yes.

5 Q. And in relation to the forceful liberation of those territories,

6 were any -- were the figures in relation to displaced, killed, detained,

7 were they provided to your office and are they the subject of your report,

8 or does your report largely relate to the aggression and the occupation of

9 Croatia as opposed to the liberation of these occupied areas, in the main?

10 A. The information is in relation to the -- or, rather, the

11 consequences of the aggression against the Republic of Croatia.

12 As for the data that you're inquiring about, those in relation to

13 1995, this information is still being processed, gathered and sorted out.

14 My own office has been cooperating with the neighbouring countries, Serbia

15 and Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina, in a bid to set up a database.

16 I can only provide approximations if I tell you about any information in

17 the possession of my office right now. That is part of the reason why we

18 were involved in the exhumations. This was pursuant to a request by the

19 International Criminal Tribunal, and that's why we did that. However,

20 that's not part of my report, because this type of information has not

21 quite been fully sorted yet.

22 Q. So just to summarise, the focus of this report is in relation to a

23 conflict in Croatia, the results of the conflict in Croatia between 1991

24 and 1996, but focusing more specifically on the aggression against the

25 Croatian state and the occupation of those areas; is that correct?

Page 9943

1 A. That's correct. Clearly there was no way we could have been in

2 the possession of documents about deaths in the temporarily occupied

3 areas. It is possible that we can organise this type of documentation

4 over the following period and through bilateral talks.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, as a result of this report relating to

6 Croatia-wide generally, were you also asked by the Office of the

7 Prosecutor recently to analyse the effects of the conflict in the areas of

8 Eastern Slavonia specifically and particularly in relation to the same

9 analytical criteria that you've used of missing, killed, detained,

10 expelled and exhumed?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And as a result of that request, did you supervise and participate

13 in the production of maps and tables dealing with these figures in this

14 Eastern Slavonian area?

15 A. Organised and participated.

16 Q. Now, the sources that were used to compile these tables and maps,

17 which we'll look at shortly, were they the same sources that you used to

18 arrive at the Croatia-wide statistics in relation to the aggression

19 against the State of Croatia, as you put it?

20 A. Certainly. The same sources and the same criteria were applied.

21 Q. And --

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Smith, could I draw your attention to the need

23 to watch time, as was discussed yesterday.

24 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. We are picking up the pace in

25 that regard.

Page 9944

1 Q. And the same methodology, was that used?

2 A. Certainly.

3 Q. Now, in relation to the term "Eastern Slavonia," is that a

4 geographic region as opposed to a political region, political

5 administrative region?

6 A. It's a geographical concept. Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and

7 Srijem. My own analysis, the one that has been used here, was carried out

8 based on their administrative borders. The counties encompassing Eastern

9 Slavonia, Baranja and parts of Srijem.

10 Q. And how many counties is that and what are their names, please?

11 A. There are two counties in that area. This is clearly stated in my

12 report. This is the Vukovar-Srijem county and the Osijek-Baranja county.

13 Both these counties were partly occupied, and my analysis is in relation

14 to the occupied areas.

15 Q. And in relation to this county administrative unit of areas, did

16 the county system come in after 1991? Is that correct?

17 A. Yes. The counties were introduced in 1993. Back in 1991 the term

18 used was municipalities, and there several of those in these respective

19 areas.

20 Q. Thank you. And in relation to counties, counties are made up of

21 municipalities; is that correct?

22 A. They are now, but the borders are different in relation to what

23 they used to be back in 1991.

24 Q. Thank you. If I can ask you to turn to tab 2.2, please. And this

25 is an analysis of the exhumations that have been conducted in Croatia on a

Page 9945

1 county basis. Now, do you have that map in front of you? It's at

2 tab 2.2. It's ERN number 0600-3720. With the B/C/S translation

3 0600-3764.

4 Now, the only purpose of looking at this map at the moment is to

5 identify the two counties of Osijek-Baranja and Vukovar-Srijem. Do those

6 two counties appear on the far right-hand side of the Croatian map there?

7 A. That's right. They are on the far right. You see the two

8 lozenges sticking up into the air. That's the Vukovar-Srijem county,

9 number of those exhumed. And the Osijek county. And you can see the

10 border between these two because that, too, is marked on the map.

11 Q. So your evidence is that it's the occupied areas within these two

12 counties that was the focus of your analysis in relation to the tables on

13 Eastern Slavonia; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender that, that map.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map will become Exhibit 537.


20 Q. Mr. Grujic, if we can turn to tab 2.3, please. This is a document

21 entitled Osijek-Baranja and Vukovar-Srijem county. And the ERN number

22 is 0600-4079.

23 Mr. Grujic, looking at this map, is the purple area the occupied

24 area that you've referred to in your report?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9946

1 Q. And so that is the area of your analysis in relation to the

2 Eastern Slavonian figures?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, also looking at this map you stated that Eastern Slavonia is

5 located within this region, but in -- certainly in relation to the

6 occupied areas, are there parts of those occupied areas that, in fact,

7 don't form part of Eastern Slavonia, geographically speaking; and if

8 that's correct, which parts, please?

9 A. Yes. This is primarily in relation to Baranja. But it might be

10 more accurate to use the term Podunavlje, the Danube region, because that

11 term encompasses both counties and the occupied area. We can use this as

12 a geographical concept, including Slavonia, Baranja and Srijem. Or we can

13 simply refer to it as Podunavlje, the Danube region, which I think is more

14 appropriate, if you consider the specific area. The important thing,

15 however, is that the analysis was performed in view of the administrative

16 units that the area is made up of.

17 Q. Thank you. If I could ask if that map could be placed on the

18 screen, and if the witness could be provided with a pen, please. The ERN

19 number is 0600-4076.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 MR. SMITH: Apparently there's a problem with the e-court system,

22 so if --

23 JUDGE PARKER: It's not in the system, is the problem. It's not

24 with the system, it's not there.

25 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, we have thousands of pages for this

Page 9947

1 witness, and every one of them is in the e-court system apart from this

2 one. Very unlucky in that regard. I would ask that we place it on the

3 ELMO, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Grujic, looking at the map that we're referring to on the ELMO

5 or the projector just beside you, could you draw a line reflecting the

6 areas that would not form a part of Eastern Slavonia in that occupied

7 region, please? Approximately.

8 A. This is Baranja, roughly speaking.

9 Q. If you can with --

10 A. And this should be Srijem.

11 Q. If you could draw a line where the Baranja region commences,

12 briefly, and also where the Srijem region commences, briefly, to identify

13 those regions as well as the Eastern Slavonia region on the map, please.

14 A. This is Baranja.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. Slavonia.

17 Q. And if you could just draw a line on the map. Thank you.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Perhaps if you could do it a little bit darker, thanks.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Isn't this in enough maps already? I'm concerned,

21 Mr. Smith, at the timing.

22 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, if I can make you feel more confident,

23 the last bit of the examination will be going a lot faster than the first

24 part.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the time for the whole examination is really

Page 9948

1 drawing to a close.

2 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps if we could agree on

3 a half an hour, would that be acceptable?

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

5 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

6 Q. Mr. Grujic, could you place an A indicating the Baranja region?

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. And if you could draw a line indicating where the Srijem region

9 commences and indicate that with a B, please.

10 A. [Marks]. This is not very accurate. You understand this is very

11 difficult to mark accurately.

12 Q. Thank you. No, we understand that it's an approximation. And

13 with a C can you mark the Eastern Slavonian region, please, in the

14 occupied area.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender that map.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map will become Exhibit 538.


21 Q. Mr. Grujic, in addition to being requested to provide an analysis

22 of those that were expelled, missing, detained and exhumed in the

23 Eastern Slavonian region, did you also provide analysis, individual

24 analysis in relation to the Osijek-Baranja county, and also in relation to

25 the Vukovar-Srijem county, and also in relation to the Vukovar town?

Page 9949

1 A. Yes. Applying the same criteria and the same method.

2 Q. Thank you. And if we can turn to tab 2.1, please. And this is

3 ERN number 0600-3680 to 0600-3681. Is this the table in relation to your

4 analysis of the Danube region which comprises of those two counties? Is

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. And again, these figures simply relate to the occupied region, not

8 the unoccupied region of those counties; is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And in relation to the occupation of the areas that you refer to,

11 who occupied these areas, from your records, just briefly, in terms of

12 military forces?

13 A. According to the information contained in the questionnaire, it

14 was the JNA and paramilitary units.

15 Q. And in this table you refer to the number of people expelled, the

16 number of people that were reported missing or still reported missing now,

17 and the number of people detained, as well as the number of people

18 exhumed. Is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. And it would be fair to say that in relation to these figures the

21 majority of the people expelled have been -- that have been reported

22 missing and exhumed were, in fact, people of Croat ethnicity; is that

23 correct?

24 A. That's correct. This is a percentage that is roughly equivalent

25 to the one at the state level.

Page 9950

1 Q. Thank you. And if we can now turn to tab 2.4, please. This is --

2 and this is ERN number 0600-3702. And this is a map which is entitled

3 identified mass graves in the Eastern Slavonian region. Is this a map

4 that you prepared, or your office prepared?

5 A. Yes, this map was made in my office.

6 Q. And it identifies all of the places which have been -- mass graves

7 have been found and exhumed; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Now, in relation to the mass graves that were found and exhumed in

10 Eastern Slavonia as referred to on the map, are you able to say what

11 percentage of those deaths were by natural causes as opposed to violent

12 causes?

13 A. I cannot give you this information, but it is quite clear from the

14 documents we have that in every grave violent causes of death were

15 established. All the persons found in the graves died in the same

16 circumstances and at the same time. In some cases, due to the

17 disappearance of soft tissues, when there are no injuries visible on the

18 bones, it is not possible to ascertain the cause of death. It is certain,

19 however, that in each of the graves victims have been found who have been

20 shown to have died of a violent cause.

21 Q. Thank you. And in relation to your categories of analysis from

22 the records that you have, when was the time period in which -- or the

23 main time period in which these expulsions, killings, people being

24 reported missing and -- and detained, when was the main time period when

25 these incidents occurred?

Page 9951

1 A. From September 1991 to around March 1992. That was the highest

2 concentration. And then there is a gradual decline until May 1992.

3 Q. Thank you. And from your records are you able to say which

4 military formations were the cause of these incidents of expulsion,

5 killing, detention?

6 A. According to the questionnaires about prisoners, over 45 per cent

7 of those taken away by force were taken by the JNA. According to the same

8 information, over 25 per cent were taken away by paramilitary formations.

9 Whereas there is no information available for the others as to who it was

10 that forcibly took them away.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender this table in relation

13 to the Danube region, which is 0600-3681 to 0600-36 -- sorry, 80 to 81.

14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 539, Your Honours.

16 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would also seek to tender the map in

17 relation -- entitled identified mass graves of Eastern Slavonia, and the

18 ERN number is 0600-3720.

19 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 540, Your Honours.


22 Q. Mr. Grujic, you stated that the basis of your analysis in relation

23 to the effects of the conflict in the Eastern Slavonian region was based

24 on the two counties of Vukovar-Srijem and Osijek-Baranja; is that correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 9952

1 Q. Now, the results of your analysis in relation to the Danube

2 region, is that a combined, an aggregate of the results of your

3 independent analyses relating to the Osijek-Baranja region and also the

4 Vukovar-Srijem region?

5 A. The Osijek-Baranja and Vukovar-Srijem counties are an integral

6 part of the analysis of the Podunavlje or Danube region. The Danube

7 region is divided into two administrative entities: The Osijek-Baranja

8 and the Vukovar-Srijem counties.

9 Q. Thank you. And if I can turn your attention to tab 2.5, please.

10 This is ERN number 0600-3678 to 0600-3679.

11 Is this your analysis in relation to the Osijek-Baranja county?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Does the same pattern emerge in relation to the percentage of

14 Croats being expelled, detained, killed, as -- does the same pattern

15 emerge as it did in your analysis of the Danube region -- of the Danube

16 region, sorry?

17 A. Yes. The percentages are very similar. They are just 10 per cent

18 lower in the case of missing persons.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender that table.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: The table will be Exhibit 541, Your Honours.


24 Q. Mr. Grujic, if I can ask you to turn to tab 2.6, and can you tell

25 me whether or not this is the analysis of the -- the different aspects

Page 9953

1 we've referred to of killing, expulsion, detention, missing, in relation

2 to this particular county?

3 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Again, does the same pattern emerge in relation to the percentage

5 of Croats affected by the conflict in that region as in the Danube region

6 and the Osijek-Baranja county?

7 A. Yes, the pattern is the same. The percentages here, however, are

8 somewhat higher in relation to the other counties and the overall

9 situation in Croatia.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender that table, and the

12 ERN number is 0600-3682 to 0600-3683.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it will be received with exhibit

15 number 542.


17 Q. Mr. Grujic, can I now ask you to turn to tab 2.7, please? And

18 this is a table entitled Vukovar. The ERN number is 0600-3674 to

19 0600-3677. When we look at this table, is this an analysis that you

20 prepared in relation to the effects of the conflict in relation to Vukovar

21 town?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. And as with the other two counties and the Danube region as a

24 whole, does the same pattern emerge in relation to the percentage of

25 Croats who were -- fell victim to the different aspects of -- of the war;

Page 9954

1 namely, expulsion, killing, detention and have -- having been reported

2 missing?

3 A. Yes, the pattern is the same.

4 Q. If can I ask you to turn to tab 2.8, please. Tab 2.8 is a map,

5 and it's entitled locations of imprisonment of 2.796 persons from Vukovar.

6 The ERN number is 0600-3704. Do you see that map in front of you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you briefly explain what it represents?

9 A. On this map, the locations have been marked where prisons and

10 camps were located where people from Vukovar were imprisoned. They are on

11 the territory of Serbia and on the territory of the Republic of Croatia

12 which was occupied in the Podunavlje area.

13 Q. And does this map represent graphically your figures in relation

14 to -- or the locations of where people were detained in relation to the

15 entries that you have in your table relating to Vukovar town, and that's

16 at tab 2.7?

17 A. Yes. This relates exclusively to Vukovar town, to the 2.796

18 prisoners held in prison camps and prisons on the territory of two states.

19 Of course, there were other prisons with other prisoners. This refers

20 only to prisoners from Vukovar.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender that map.

23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it will received with exhibit

25 number 543.

Page 9955


2 Q. Mr. Grujic, if I can ask you to turn to tab 2.9, please. Now,

3 this is ERN number 0600-3701. And it's entitled location of mass graves

4 containing victims from Vukovar.

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. When we use the term "mass grave," do you have a definition of

7 when a grave would be classified as a mass grave?

8 A. In the Republic of Croatia, the criterion is three or more persons

9 in one location.

10 Q. Thank you. And does this -- this diagram or this map, does this

11 relate to the figures that you have in your table on Vukovar town

12 regarding the exhumations of people who were originally from Vukovar?

13 A. Yes. This shows the locations of mass graves in which people from

14 Vukovar were found, among other victims. There are 52 graves in the

15 entire area, but here only those graves which contained victims from

16 Vukovar are shown.

17 Q. And in relation to graves, mass graves in the Vukovar region that

18 relate to victims from Vukovar, is it correct from that table that there

19 were 14 mass grave sites where victims from Vukovar were found?

20 A. That's correct.

21 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender that map and -- that

22 map. Thank you.

23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

24 THE REGISTRAR: With exhibit number 544, Your Honour.


Page 9956

1 Q. Mr. Grujic, if we can go back to tab 2.7, please. And if we can

2 go back to the -- to the end of your report on the Vukovar town, and it

3 relates to the exhumation conducted at the new cemetery in Vukovar. Do

4 you see those tables? It's on page 7 in the English. It begins with "938

5 exhumed and 800 identified." Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it correct that the exhumation at the Vukovar new cemetery was

8 the largest exhumation conducted in the Vukovar region?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. In fact, it was the largest exhumation in relation to the conflict

11 in Croatia as a whole; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. And of those 800 people that have been identified, 644 are

14 identified as being Croatian; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. And 358 of those people, of those identified, are classified as

17 civilians; is that correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. In relation to the grave at the Vukovar new cemetery, is it

20 correct that this grave wasn't a primary grave but was a secondary grave

21 that was dug after the -- after the fall of Vukovar?

22 A. That's correct. It's a secondary grave which came into existence

23 in several ways: Clearing up the terrain; also moving other mass graves

24 in the area; and even moving people who had been buried properly from

25 their graves to this grave, this cemetery.

Page 9957

1 The victims can therefore be divided into three basic categories.

2 Those who were killed during the aggression on Vukovar at the time Vukovar

3 was taken, as well as those who were killed after the occupation of

4 Vukovar. Among them there are also prisoners of war, and we cannot even

5 exclude the possibility that among them they may have been people who died

6 of natural causes. Because this grave was also created by clearing up the

7 terrain. So it's possible that people were found who had died for lack of

8 medical assistance and who were later found and buried there.

9 Q. Thank you. From your records are you able to say what the

10 percentage, approximately, of those bodies that were exhumed died from

11 natural causes and ones that had died from a violent death? In

12 approximate terms.

13 A. I cannot give you percentages, but the majority died a violent

14 death. There are documents supporting this which we received from the

15 then Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, meaning files and protocols.

16 Q. Thank you. And if you give the date when the exhumation on the

17 Vukovar cemetery commenced?

18 A. I cannot recall it right now, but if you give me a little time

19 I'll try to find it. I know it lasted for two months.

20 Q. Perhaps the date is less important, but the year, please.

21 A. 1998.

22 Q. Thank you. And in relation to that exhumation, you have just

23 stated that the Serbian authorities had provided with certain

24 documentation in relation to where these people were originally found; is

25 that correct?

Page 9958

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And, where possible, you have included that information in your --

3 in your records?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender the tables at tab 2.7.

6 The ERN number is 0600-3674 to 3677 in relation to the Vukovar town

7 analysis.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 400 -- 545, Your Honours.


11 Q. Mr. Grujic, if I can now ask you to look at tab 2.10, please.

12 This is ERN number 0600-3689 to 0600-3700. This relates to a number of

13 tables which indicate other exhumations conducted in the Vukovar area that

14 contain people that were originally from the town of Vukovar; is that

15 correct?

16 A. That's correct. These are exhumations carried out on the places

17 previously marked on the map.

18 Q. And, in fact, the -- these tables contain 12 -- information in

19 relation to 12 exhumation sites, and that, in conjunction with the

20 exhumation at Ovcara which we'll speak about shortly, and the exhumation

21 at the Vukovar new cemetery, that completes the 14 exhumation sites that

22 you have referred to earlier. Is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I said that I would be half an hour. I

25 think realistically it would be another 10 to 15 minutes, realistically.

Page 9959

1 And so I just would ask for that. I need to briefly tender some tables in

2 relation to Ovcara, and I'm in Your Honour's hands in as far as --

3 JUDGE PARKER: Press on, and it better be nearer the 10 than

4 the 15.

5 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Thank you, Your Honour, I seek to tender those tables in relation

7 to the victims listed or schooled at the different 12 exhumation sites.

8 And that's 0600-3689 to 0600-3700.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 546, Your Honour.


12 Q. Mr. Grujic, I just have a few questions for you in relation to

13 Ovcara. The Defence counsel will have some more questions in relation to

14 that for you. However, is it the case that your commission was involved

15 with certainly as -- in the monitoring process and the identification of

16 victims that were exhumed at the Ovcara grave site? Is that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. If I could turn you to tab 3.1, please. Now, this table is

19 listed -- entitled a list of identified persons whose remains were exhumed

20 from the mass grave at Ovcara, and the ERN number is 0600-3684 to

21 0600-3688.

22 Mr. Grujic, this list contains 192 names. By that fact, does that

23 mean that 192 people have been identified at the Ovcara grave site?

24 A. 200 mortal remains were exhumed from Ovcara, and out of that 192

25 have been identified so far. And they are on this list.

Page 9960

1 Q. Thank you. And were you asked by the Office of the Prosecutor to

2 compare these names to the annex to the indictment which contains 264

3 names? Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And of those 192 that were identified at Ovcara, is it the case

6 that there were two people that were not included in the indictment

7 Annex A; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. Only two people were not included in the indictment,

9 Mihalec, Josip and Damir Simenic. They were identified in 2005, so that

10 is the reason.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender that document.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: With exhibit number 547, Your Honours.


16 Q. Witness, if I can ask you to turn to tab 3.2, please. It's a

17 table entitled a list of identified individuals exhumed from the Ovcara

18 mass grave and listed in the indictment. I believe that's a mistake in

19 the translation, and it should be in English "and not listed in the

20 indictment."

21 A. Mm-hmm.

22 Q. Mr. Grujic, looking at that table are these the two people that

23 were in Annex A but are not listed -- sorry, are these the two people that

24 were identified at Ovcara but not listed in Annex A to the indictment?

25 A. Precisely. I just gave you their names in my previous answer.

Page 9961

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender that document.

3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

4 THE REGISTRAR: With exhibit number 548, Your Honours.


6 Q. Mr. Grujic, if I can now ask you to turn to tab 3 .3, please. And

7 this is a table entitled victims from Ovcara farm, and then in brackets

8 has got "(from the Vukovar Hospital)." And the ERN number is 0600-3665 to

9 0600-3673. Mr. Grujic, does this table give a status as to what you know

10 about each of the 264 people that were named in the annex to the

11 indictment? Is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. And is it correct to say that as 190 people in the annex to the

14 indictment have been identified at Ovcara, that there are 74 individuals

15 that are contained in the annex to the indictment that are not identified

16 at Ovcara? Is that correct?

17 A. Correct. 264 names on the list, 190 have been identified, which

18 leaves 74 persons to be identified.

19 Q. Thank you. And just for our purposes in being able to read this

20 chart later, is it fair to say that in relation to the circumstances

21 column of the table, MG means mass grave, EX means exhumation, and NN

22 means a registration number, and ID means the date of identification of

23 the individual exhumed?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. And also in relation to the date of the exhumation, we have the

Page 9962

1 12th of September, 1996 as a consistent date for each of the people in the

2 indictment that were exhumed at Ovcara. Is that an approximate date as

3 opposed to the exact date?

4 A. This is the mean date. This is something that we introduced

5 because the exhumation and the extraction of mortal remains was conducted

6 by the International Criminal Court, or rather the OTP. We were there as

7 monitors, and we don't have all the information. What we used here is the

8 mean date. And the exhumation itself started on the 1st of September and

9 ended on the 4th of October, 1996.

10 Q. Thank you. And does this comparison that you have done in

11 relation to the Annex A to the indictment, does the conclusion, does the

12 conclusion form that of the 74 people that are not identified at Ovcara,

13 16 have been found in other graves and 58 are still reported as missing?

14 Is that correct?

15 A. That's correct. If you analyse the remaining 74 persons you can

16 divide them into three basic categories. The first comprising 58 persons,

17 and these are still listed as missing. They are still listed as missing

18 persons.

19 Another 14 were exhumed from other mass graves -- or, rather, 13

20 of them were exhumed from the new cemetery in Vukovar, and one from the

21 Lovas mass grave.

22 Thirdly, the mortal remains of another two persons were taken

23 charge of from Serbia and Montenegro. Talks were held and these bodies

24 were handed over and subsequently identified in the Republic of Croatia.

25 Q. Thank you for that. And if I could now ask you to turn to

Page 9963

1 tab 3.4, please. And this is -- this is ERN number 0600-3661 to 0600- --

2 JUDGE PARKER: Are you tendering that last document?

3 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that. Thank you, Your Honour.


5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, it will become Exhibit 549.


7 Q. Tab 3.4 is 0600-3661 to 0600-3662. This is entitled a list of

8 persons who are mentioned in the indictment and who is mortal remains were

9 exhumed from other mass graves in the Vukovar area. In this table does

10 this contain the circumstances as to the information you have regarding

11 the killing of these people?

12 A. The circumstances indicated here refer to where the mortal remains

13 were primarily found.

14 Q. Thank you. And this information was provided to you by the Serb

15 authorities, is that correct, when the files were handed over?

16 A. That's right. It was based on the files handed over by official

17 representatives of what was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at the time

18 and now Serbia and Montenegro that we derived these elements that we based

19 our information on, which means that our information is based on such

20 elements as are in our possession.

21 Q. Thank you. And that relates to the 14 of the 16 people that have

22 been found in other places in relation to the indictment.

23 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that document, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 550, Your Honour.

Page 9964


2 Q. And Mr. Grujic, if I can ask you to turn to tab 3.5, please. And

3 this is ERN number 0600-3663 to 0600-3663. It's entitled list of persons

4 from the indictment whose remains were taken over from Serbia and

5 Montenegro. And it has two persons. Do you see that table?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that provides the information of how those people were

8 received and the fact that they were also named in the indictment; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Indeed. We see here names and surnames and other information such

11 as where these mortal remains were buried in Serbia and Montenegro or what

12 used to be the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. At our request these

13 mortal remains were submitted to us, and we have documents to show that

14 this was precisely where the mortal remains arrived from, the SFRY.

15 Q. Thank you. And in relation to -- if we can just go back to the

16 missing person reports in general, you provided to the Tribunal a number

17 of the missing person reports in relation to the victims named in the

18 indictment, the 264 victims in the indictment. Is that correct? Your

19 office.

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Before we move on, Your Honour, I've just been reminded that I

22 should tender that last document in relation to ...

23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

24 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit number 541, Your Honours.


Page 9965

1 Q. And is it the case that you have missing person reports on 262 of

2 the 264 victims stated in the annex to the indictment?

3 A. There are two persons who have never been reported to be missing.

4 What this phrase means is that none of their relatives ever came to us to

5 report these persons as missing, or indeed contacted us in any way.

6 Q. And who are those two people?

7 A. Ruzica Markobasic, and I can't remember the other name.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... for later in

9 cross-examination.

10 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I seek to tender 238 missing person

11 questionnaires relating to the individuals appearing in the annex to the

12 indictment. Those questionnaires and the 65 ter numbers are indicated in

13 the second index to the binder, and I would assume probably they would

14 need to be assigned exhibit numbers at -- during the break rather than now

15 of course.

16 JUDGE PARKER: I had thought they would be received as a bundle.

17 MR. SMITH: We're happy to do that. The only thing is they have

18 been entered into the e-court system as separate documents, so if that's

19 possible, but it may be administratively problematic.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE PARKER: We will see whether we can get them as a bundle

22 over the break.

23 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. And three minutes, I would

24 suggest.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Well, my worry is that the tape is going to run out

Page 9966

1 at any moment, Mr. Smith. Keep trying.

2 MR. SMITH: Okay.

3 Q. Witness, also did you provide some -- did your office provide some

4 photographs to the Tribunal of some of the missing people or of some of

5 the individuals named in Annex A to the indictment.

6 A. Correct. The files we submitted to the Tribunal included

7 photographs of missing persons whenever we had those in our possession.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. SMITH: And, Your Honour, I seek to tender these six

10 photographs. They're in the index from 241 to 247, index number. And

11 just for information, the missing person questionnaires was from 1 to 238.

12 Again, that might be something that needs to be done at the break.

13 JUDGE PARKER: These, too, will be dealt with after the break.

14 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

15 Q. And Mr. Grujic, is it the case that there is a small group of

16 questionnaires, perhaps under about 20, that haven't been forwarded to the

17 Office of the Prosecutor and you will attempt to forward them in the

18 next -- in the coming days. Is that correct?

19 A. Correct. They weren't forwarded because the questionnaires were

20 originally forwarded as early as 1995. Some were only produced later, and

21 it was impossible to ascertain in relation to some that they were in

22 relation to persons for whom questionnaires were requested. There are

23 questionnaires missing in relation to two persons, Ruzica Markobasic and

24 Stanoje Cupic.

25 Q. Thank you. And if I can just turn you to tab 2.11, please. And

Page 9967

1 this is ERN number 0600-3793 entitled list of remains exhumed at

2 Novo Groblje in Vukovar, who, according to documentation received from

3 Serbia and Montenegro were found in graves at Velepromet.

4 Mr. Grujic, this list contains 15 names of people who were exhumed

5 at the new cemetery in Vukovar and have been identified by the Serb

6 authorities that they were originally found in a grave in Velepromet, or

7 near Velepromet. Is that correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And if we look at the second page of that document, which is

10 0600-3794, do we see here a note that was found on a number of the bodies

11 that have been identified in this list, when they were exhumed at the

12 Vukovar new cemetery stating that this body was located by the railway

13 opposite Velepromet. Is that correct?

14 A. Correct. That's what it says.

15 Q. And about how many of the bodies that were exhumed at the Vukovar

16 new cemetery had that particular note on them, of the 15?

17 A. Four bodies had the same kind of document on it, which indicates

18 that all four bodies came from the same grave.

19 Q. But in any event, you were notified by the Serb authorities that

20 these 15 bodies were, in fact, retrieved from a grave at the rear of

21 Velepromet. Is that correct?

22 A. They were not the ones who notify us. It was found in the

23 documents that they had submitted to us. This documentation included the

24 original document which you have just referred to about this grave being

25 found containing 19 marked bodies. We found such bodies with lists at the

Page 9968

1 Vukovar cemetery, and there were documents in their pockets, and official

2 documents were later drawn up about all of this.

3 Q. Thank you. And just the one last question. If we turn to

4 tab 2.12, please. This is ERN 0600-3703, "Locations in Serbia from where

5 the mortal remains of victims from Vukovar were retrieved." Is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes, correct. This map shows where victims were buried in what

8 was then the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The map also indicates the

9 places where we took over the remains of those victims.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. SMITH: I seek to tender that map, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE PARKER: It, too, will be received after the break.


14 Q. And also --

15 JUDGE PARKER: You are tendering 2.11?

16 MR. SMITH: 2.11. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It, too, will be received.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I have finished my examination.

20 JUDGE PARKER: We will comment after the break, because of the

21 tape.

22 We will now adjourn for 20 minutes. At 10 past 1.00.

23 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

24 --- Recess taken at 12.50 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 1.15 p.m.

Page 9969

1 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Court Officer.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Just a quick correction for the transcript and the record. The

4 document at tab 3.5 has been assigned exhibit number 551. The document at

5 tab 2.11 will be Exhibit 552. And the document at tab 2.12 will become

6 Exhibit 553.

7 Further, all the questionnaires with the reference number from

8 index 1 to 238 will become Exhibit 554. While the six photographs with

9 index number 241 to 247 will become Exhibit 555.

10 Thank you.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, indeed.

12 Mr. Smith, we would point out that the original estimate for this

13 witness was some four hours. Yesterday the need for speed to try and

14 ensure that he could be free by tomorrow when we adjourn was identified.

15 The important evidence for the most part came in those last rushed half

16 hour or so of the second period. And most of the first period was

17 essentially a repetition of what is already in the report. If we could

18 point out that the result was that we have not achieved the sort of speed

19 that had been hoped for in dealing with the important parts of the

20 evidence. There is no need for you to comment, just drawing to your

21 attention that it has fallen short of what we had expected.

22 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

25 afternoon to all.

Page 9970

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic:

2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Grujic.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. I am attorney-at-law, Miroslav Vasic, one of Mr. Mrksic's defence

5 counsel. Before we begin, could I just please draw your attention to one

6 thing. Make a short pause after each of my questions since we speak the

7 same language, to make the interpretation possible.

8 A. By all means, I'll try to keep that in mind.

9 Q. Thank you. At the start of your examination-in-chief we heard

10 about your CV, we heard about your qualifications. I would just like to

11 ask you something in relation to the specialised courses that you took.

12 You say that you competed a one-year specialised course in state security.

13 Did you not, in fact, work for state security since 1984; more precisely,

14 in its Osijek department or outpost?

15 A. No. To be quite specific, it was since 1972 that I had been

16 working there.

17 Q. So from 1972 to 1990, that is the period that you had been working

18 for the State Security Service. Were you staying in Osijek all this time?

19 A. No, not 1992. Yes, April 1992. That's right. From 1972 to 1992.

20 And I spent this entire period in the State Security Service. That's what

21 it was called. It was later renamed Service for the Protection of the

22 Constitutional Order.

23 Q. Thank you very much. You say you were a specialist for

24 intelligence and counter-intelligence activities. But you also dealt with

25 terrorism and uncovering terrorist activity in your area, right?

Page 9971

1 A. Yes, that's right. For a while, and I think that's reflected in

2 my CV, while I was working with the service I started at the grass roots

3 level, if you like, and I rose all the way up. I spent a certain period

4 of time dealing with anti-terrorism.

5 Q. Thank you. You specified at one point that your service changed

6 its name and was now called the Service for the Protection of the

7 Constitutional Order. When was this exactly?

8 A. I think this occurred sometime in 1996, possibly 1997, but I'm not

9 quite certain.

10 Q. There is something that I saw, and please correct me if I'm wrong,

11 in 1990 you became head of the wartime section office of the Security

12 Service in Osijek, right?

13 A. Yes, that is indeed what it was called.

14 Q. Can you tell us when this wartime section office was set up of

15 which you were head?

16 A. Unfortunately, I can't tell you. I'm not authorised to tell you

17 that, and this is not the subject of my evidence.

18 Q. But we can agree that back in 1990 there was no war in the former

19 Yugoslavia, was there?

20 A. Was that a question?

21 Q. Yes. Can we agree on the fact that back in 1990 there was no war

22 in the former Yugoslavia?

23 A. There was no war, but the situation was such that the tensions

24 were high and there were sporadic incidents.

25 Q. Thank you. Was there another section office like this in Vukovar,

Page 9972

1 or did your own office perhaps set one up?

2 A. Perhaps I should clarify a thing or two about these wartime

3 section offices. These were conceived and came into existence from the

4 time this service was created. From the time I first came there, these

5 section offices were set up. They were set up for the eventuality of

6 clashes or war. They were supposed to start operating in these areas, and

7 this was merely a way to organise civilians in a given area. My area only

8 had to do with the town of Osijek.

9 Q. Thank you. So there was a special section office in Vukovar,

10 wasn't there?

11 A. I really can't say.

12 Q. Thank you. At the time you submitted reports to the headquarters

13 at the Ministry of the Interior in Zagreb, right?

14 A. Yes, that is the way to do it.

15 Q. When the wartime section office was set up, did the nature of your

16 assignments change in relation to your peacetime activities prior to 1990?

17 A. No.

18 Q. In 1990 and 1991, apart from the tasks given to you through the

19 regular chain from the minister of the interior, did your service also

20 receive orders from Branimir Glavas in Osijek?

21 A. No. No, the part that I worked in certainly did not.

22 Q. Can you tell us: In view of the fact that you worked on terrorism

23 and discovering terrorist groups in the -- in late 1990 and early 1991,

24 was a terrorist group discovered in your area, the victims of which were

25 ethnic Serbs?

Page 9973

1 A. I am not aware of any such thing, but certainly certain groups

2 were discovered which could be linked to terrorism. I personally

3 discovered one such group, and it was dealt with in the courts.

4 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether in the course of your

5 professional work in the period we are now talking about, that is 1991,

6 did you discover the -- about the operations of a terrorist group headed

7 by Franjo Kracak in Eastern Slavonia? Do you have such information?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Thank you. Your office covered a border area of the Republic of

10 Croatia in the direction of Hungary. Am I right?

11 A. No. It covered the town of Osijek and the then Osijek

12 municipality.

13 Q. Thank you. In late 1990, in the course of your operative work,

14 did you come by information about the organising and arming of HDZ members

15 in Osijek conducted by Branimir Glavas?

16 A. Yes. I arrived at such information that the HDZ was arming, also

17 that the surrounding villages and their inhabitants were being armed by

18 the JNA. I personally participated in some contacts, and this is well

19 documented, aiming at listing these weapons and possibly handing them

20 over.

21 Q. Thank you. You said you participated in listing and handing over

22 weapons; you're referring to the surrounding villages?

23 A. Yes. Some of these wanted to hand over their weapons voluntarily,

24 which they had received from the JNA.

25 Q. Within in your service, was the same kind of activity organised

Page 9974

1 with respect to the weapons handed out by the HDZ?

2 A. Yes, wherever possible. Yes. As I said, they handed over weapons

3 voluntarily.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Grujic. In the first half of 1991, within the

5 scope of your professional activities, were you aware of the planting of

6 explosives in catering establishments owned by ethnic Serbs and frequent

7 night-time attacks on the homes of Serb citizens in Osijek?

8 A. This did not fall within the purview of my work, but wherever

9 there were elements indicating terrorist activity, we delivered such

10 information to our superior services, which was then the public security

11 service.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Grujic. You say this was something done by the

13 public security service. This means that such incidents were described as

14 ordinary attacks on life, limb or security of citizens, not as organised

15 activity. Do I understand you correctly?

16 A. Well, as I said, in some cases, yes; in some cases, no. For

17 example, the explosion at the political -- at Politika office was placed

18 within the context of a terrorist attack and was investigated as such,

19 and I participated in that.

20 Q. Thank you. I misunderstood your previous reply. It's clear to me

21 now.

22 At that time did you receive any reports from the public security

23 service about the disappearances of citizens of Serb ethnicity? And if

24 you did, did this indicate that there might be organised attacks on a

25 particular population?

Page 9975

1 A. As I said, missing persons fall within the purview of the public

2 security. They have a missing persons service. They did then and they do

3 now. And it was they who dealt with that.

4 Q. Thank you. You told us that in connection with arming in the area

5 where you conducted your professional duties you had certain tasks. I

6 would like to know whether in this period of discovering the distribution

7 of weapons in the area, regardless of whether these were handed out by the

8 HDZ or whether this was happening in the surrounding villages, as you

9 said, whether you contacted the JNA security administration or the

10 security organs working on suppressing the smuggling of weapons into the

11 Republic of Croatia?

12 A. In 1990, yes. I worked on one particular case, together with

13 members of that service.

14 Q. Thank you. You remained the head of this war section office

15 throughout the critical period in Eastern Slavonia in 1990 and 1991, and

16 you followed the pre-war and wartime events from there. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Thank you. As part of the work you carried out, I assume you were

19 familiar with the work of these commissions which were established in 1991

20 by the government of the Republic of Croatia dealing with the protection

21 of detained persons and searching for missing persons. Is that correct?

22 A. No, not really. I didn't have contacts with that commission. It

23 did its job and had it deemed it necessary, it would probably have

24 contacted us an the ground. But I have no knowledge that they ever did.

25 Q. As part of your work, did you learn at the time how exchanges were

Page 9976

1 conducted in late 1991 and by whom?

2 A. Yes. I did have some knowledge about that. These were exchanges

3 carried out, one might say, on the local level. I know in particular that

4 there was an exchange when, and that was still in 1990, when a bus load of

5 civilians was taken prisoner in Markusica by members of the milicija, and

6 they were held in Markusica and Sodolvci. And the head of operations or,

7 I don't know, the head of the public security service had direct contacts

8 with representatives of the JNA and representatives of those paramilitary

9 formations in Markusica, and that was when the exchange was carried out.

10 And this was the pattern. Contact was made with those in charge at the

11 local level, and those exchanges were carried out.

12 The data from these exchanges were later incorporated into our

13 information based on the lists kept at the time, or the police records,

14 which were made at the place of exchange or the place of release. It

15 wasn't always an exchange.

16 Q. If I understood you correctly, there is information dating from

17 that period in 1991 concerning those exchanges, and this information was

18 transferred to your commission when it was established in 1993. Do I

19 understand you correctly?

20 A. Yes, that's right. All the information that we could gain from

21 that period is now in our administration.

22 Frequently, when people applied to us in order to prove that they

23 are entitled to the status of a prisoner - and they were not recorded at

24 the time because the commission was established only in late 1991 and

25 there had been exchanges previously - we then asked through official

Page 9977

1 channels that the police and other bodies deliver to us document on the

2 basis of which an administrative procedure can be initiated and the status

3 proved.

4 To sum up, the information you asked about, as far as is possible,

5 is available in our administration and is one of the bases for the

6 information that I have presented in my report.

7 Q. Thank you. I assume that in the archives of your commission there

8 is also information about an exchange which took place in December 1991

9 where 44 prisoners from Vukovar, together with Dr. Vesna Bosanac and

10 Dr. Njavro, were exchanged for JNA officers who belonged to the so-called

11 Labrador group which was established by the security administration.

12 Was that information available to you?

13 A. I do have information that that exchange took place. I know that

14 for certain. We have a list of the people who were exchanged, and these

15 persons who were exchanged have been incorporated in this figure of 7.666.

16 Q. Thank you. As part of the work that you did in the Security

17 Service, you will have had information about the activities of the

18 Labrador group, and their discovery and arrest; is that correct?

19 A. No, but I believe they had information about me. That was their

20 job.

21 Q. Did you know that the network of collaborators of this group went

22 to the very top of the Croatian police?

23 A. I didn't know that, but I happen to know the man who was in charge

24 of that group, Mr. Trazivuk, because he was at the head of the

25 administration and he was my chief. I know him, but I did not know about

Page 9978

1 the Labrador group until it was discovered by others. I was not that

2 well-informed.

3 Q. After this group was discovered on the 15th of September, 1991,

4 did you here have any tasks on discovering the network of their associates

5 in the town of Osijek?

6 A. Yes, of course. It's one of the fundamentals of the

7 counter-intelligence service. That's why it exists.

8 Q. Thank you. Would you agree with me that this operation of

9 discovering the network of collaborators was suddenly interrupted and that

10 it was never fully uncovered in the Republic of Croatia?

11 A. That's something one can discuss from various standpoints, but I

12 would not agree with the way you have put it. I'm absolutely sure, and I

13 know that there was intensive work on this, not just in the case of the

14 Labrador group, but also other services. Not just the Security Service,

15 the JNA and internally. But the fundamental goal of the

16 counter-intelligence service is to collect any information indicating that

17 any foreign service is taking offensive action against the state. I could

18 not agree with you categorically. I can say that I'm sure that work on

19 this continued, but the question is how much one was able to prove and how

20 much was proved. And, as I say, I was not involved in this.

21 Q. Thank you. You probably know that Mr. Aleksandar Vasiljevic was

22 personally involved in this exchange at Pleso airport in Zagreb. Can you

23 tell us who was there from the Croatian side?

24 A. I wouldn't know that.

25 Q. Thank you. Are you aware why the commissioner of the Vukovar

Page 9979

1 municipality was not exchanged in this group? Was there any special

2 reason?

3 A. Well, you see, I cannot speak about something I did not

4 participate in or about which I do not have documents. I can talk about

5 facts. And with respect to that group, as I said, I have documents

6 showing that the group was released. Who it was that selected on both

7 sides and how this was done is a completely different question. I know

8 that when I started doing this job I insisted and managed to achieve the

9 exchange and release of all for whom I had information. I never agreed to

10 partial exchanges because those were a threat to those who would remain in

11 prison.

12 Q. The commission established in late 1991, or the commissions, did

13 they function according to the same principle you have just mentioned when

14 negotiating exchanges?

15 A. As I said, I can tell you what the organisation was like, but I

16 cannot tell you what the criteria used by others were. This commission,

17 from various sources, learnt that a certain number of people had been

18 imprisoned. In order to achieve their release, they had to agree to a

19 meeting with those who were able to release those people. After

20 scheduling a meeting, negotiations began on releasing the particular group

21 or population in question. What mechanisms were involved there, I cannot

22 say.

23 It's a fact that this was the way things happened. Usually

24 representatives of the international community participated in those

25 negotiations. When I was doing this, they always did because I refused to

Page 9980

1 work without them. But it was all a matter of the current assessment of

2 the situation, the current possibilities, the negotiations, and I really

3 cannot say why someone selected someone by name to take part in an

4 exchange, either on one side or the other.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Grujic. I have one more question. I think my time

6 is running out.

7 Could you tell us if you know who was at the head of these

8 commissions in 1991 and under whose auspices they were established and to

9 whom they were responsible for their work?

10 A. They were established within the Ministry of Defence. So, in a

11 manner of speaking, they were under the auspices of the Ministry of

12 Defence, which provided their logistical support.

13 I really cannot tell you who the people were; they came and went

14 at the head of these commissions. And it was precisely for this reason

15 that the government decided to establish its own commission, which would

16 have a better insight into the situation and better possibilities for

17 solving this very important humanitarian issue. Not just for Croatia, but

18 for the entire territory of the former Yugoslavia.

19 Q. This commission reported to the government, to the cabinet, am I

20 right? Your commission, I mean.

21 A. My commission reported exclusively to the government, that is the

22 cabinet, as does the present commission.

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Grujic.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, [No interpretation].

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic. We will adjourn now and we

Page 9981

1 will resume tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning.

2 I'm sure counsel will remain conscious of the need to concentrate

3 on what is relevant.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Friday, the 2nd day of June,

6 2006, at 9.00 a.m.