Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10199

1 Thursday, 8 June 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.11 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. I'm sorry for the delay this

7 morning. It appears Judge Thelin will not be able to sit today and

8 possibly not tomorrow, but the other two members of the Chamber will

9 continue to sit.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Examination by Mr. Smith: [Continued]

13 Q. Good morning, Witness. Yesterday we spoke about -- we spoke about

14 what happened to you in Vukovar, as well as what happened when you went to

15 the Vukovar Hospital and then to the barracks and then to Ovcara, and the

16 last thing we discussed was what happened to you when you went to

17 Negoslavci and you were there for three or four days. You said that you

18 were beaten there, and I just have a couple of questions about that, and

19 then what happened to you following that. Who took you from Ovcara to

20 Negoslavci?

21 A. We left in a military vehicle. There was an officer sitting on

22 one of the front seats, and in the back there were the four of us and a

23 guard who was with us.

24 Q. When you arrived at Negoslavci and for that three or four days

25 that you were there, who was guarding you?

Page 10200

1 A. Down in the basement where we were being held we were being

2 guarded by active-duty military police officers of the JNA.

3 Q. You said whilst you were there you were beaten. Who was -- who

4 was beating you?

5 A. Reservists would come to the basement. Probably local ones. They

6 would come to the basement and beat us. They would even say that we

7 should all be killed and that they would indeed kill all of us anyway.

8 They tried to get us out of the basement; however, the guards, the

9 military policemen told them that they were in charge of us.

10 Q. Do you know whether the military police knew that you were being

11 beaten?

12 A. Yes, I did. When they were with us.

13 Q. Who else was detained with you at this place in Negoslavci?

14 A. That day when we arrived we were blindfolded. When we arrived

15 outside that house and when we started leaving the van, or that vehicle,

16 they blindfolded us and took us down to the basement. We had those

17 blindfolds on for that entire day and night. I could sort of peep out of

18 the blindfold, and when I arrived in the basement I realised that there

19 were other detainees there. You could see that some of them were actually

20 seriously wounded and some were even on stretchers. They were moaning and

21 crying for help.

22 There were four of us who arrived, myself, Hrkic, Hajdar Dodaj,

23 the four of us arrived in addition to those prisoners who were already

24 there by the time we arrived.

25 Q. About how many other prisoners were there?

Page 10201

1 A. I think about 15.

2 Q. Are you able to say whether they -- are you able to say what

3 ethnicity those other people were?

4 A. There were Serbs among those too who were brought there and held

5 there.

6 Q. After you were in Negoslavci, were you taken to Belgrade?

7 A. Yes. We were taken from Negoslavci to Belgrade, Topcider more

8 specifically. We were held in a local cinema hall inside one of the

9 barracks.

10 Q. How long were you in Topcider for?

11 A. We were there for about a month.

12 Q. And after being kept at Topcider, where were you taken from there?

13 A. Next we were taken to the military investigations prison in

14 Belgrade.

15 Q. And how long were you at the -- that military prison for?

16 A. I was at the military investigations prison for a couple of

17 months.

18 Q. Then after that were you taken to a prison in Valjevo?

19 A. After the military investigations prison, we spent a brief while

20 at the central prison in Belgrade, a month, perhaps even less. From there

21 we were taken to Valjevo.

22 Q. And were you kept in a prison at Valjevo?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And is it correct that you were released from prison on the 14th

25 of August, 1992 in a prisoner exchange?

Page 10202

1 A. Yes. 14th of August, 1992.

2 Q. And whilst you were in custody in Serbia, you were tried and

3 convicted of deserting the JNA and taking part in an armed rebellion; is

4 that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then in 1994 did you -- were you invited by the Croatian

7 police to be interviewed?

8 A. Yes. I was invited to be interviewed.

9 Q. And briefly can you state how long that interview took and how it

10 was taken, how it was recorded?

11 A. The meeting took about an hour. And this is how the interview

12 went: I told that person briefly about everything that he wanted to know,

13 and this person, I think, took some notes.

14 Q. Did you have an opportunity to read what that interviewer had

15 noted down?

16 A. No, no one gave me anything to read.

17 Q. Did you ever sign any statement that may have been produced as a

18 result of that meeting?

19 A. No. No, I didn't.

20 Q. Before you testified yesterday did you have an opportunity to look

21 at that, those notes that were taken by the interviewer in 1994? Did you

22 have a chance to read them just before you testified?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When you read those notes, you would have noticed that there was

25 no discussion about you being at the Vukovar Hospital and then being at

Page 10203

1 Ovcara. Do you have any explanation why that may not have appeared in

2 those notes? I mean, was it discussed or was it not discussed? Can you

3 give us some understanding?

4 A. When I read that, I just couldn't make any sense of it, because

5 all the important bits were missing and some appeared to have been added

6 later on. One of the additions was that I had spent a day at the Vukovar

7 barracks after I had been captured, which is just not true. And then also

8 there was the statement that we were taken from the Vukovar barracks to

9 Negoslavci, which is another untruth. There are some more names that are

10 mentioned there that I am not familiar with. Therefore, I must say I find

11 the report quite strange.

12 Q. Thank you. And then in 1996 did you provide a statement to an

13 investigator from the Tribunal in Croatia?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do you agree with me that that statement was taken over a

16 two-day period?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you read that statement and then you signed it as being true

19 and accurate at the end of that interview process?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And then is it also correct that in 1998 you testified at the

22 Tribunal in the Dokmanovic trial?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I just have a few last questions now, and I'd just like to go back

25 to when you were taken from Negoslavci to Topcider. How were you treated

Page 10204

1 at Topcider?

2 A. At Topcider it was horrendous. That is where the whole thing

3 began, after Negoslavci, of course. We were forced to write statements,

4 they gave us pen and paper, and we had to write dozens, not to say

5 hundreds of statements. All they wanted to know about was how many people

6 each of us had killed and what sort of crimes we had committed. That was

7 all they were after.

8 Since I hadn't committed any crime or anything at all, of course I

9 was in no position to report any of my own crimes. I told it like it was,

10 but they weren't happy with that, and they applied constant pressure on us

11 to make confessions that just weren't true. Soldiers would go in and out

12 as they pleased. Drunk soldiers, beating us whenever they wanted.

13 Q. Before you testified at your trial in Belgrade for armed rebellion

14 and desertion, about how many times, if you can approximate, were you

15 beaten from the time that you left -- from the time that you arrived at

16 Negoslavci to your time at Topcider until the time that you testified in

17 your own trial in 1992, about how many times were you beaten before you

18 testified, if you can give us an estimation?

19 A. I don't know how many times exactly. Two or three times a day,

20 I'm talking about serious beatings, and just being hit occasionally. That

21 went on and on.

22 Q. Thank you. And my last question, your trial was in March, 1992;

23 is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

Page 10205

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Smith.

2 Mr. Domazet.

3 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Good morning to all.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Domazet:

5 Q. Mr. Zlogledja, good morning to you. I am attorney-at-law Vladimir

6 Domazet, one of Mr. Mrksic's Defence counsel. I will be asking you

7 questions on behalf of Mr. Mrksic's Defence team.

8 I'll start with what you have just been telling us about. I'll

9 start with your time in the military investigations prison, the

10 proceedings against you and the court's ruling, your conviction.

11 You have been answering questions by Mr. Smith. You said you

12 spent some time at Topcider, after which you were transferred to the

13 military investigations prison, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the documents we received from the Prosecution having to do

16 with the indictment and the judgement, it says that you spent in detention

17 the time from the 9th of December, 1991 onwards. This information

18 included in the indictment and the judgement, is it correct?

19 A. Most likely it is.

20 Q. When you spoke about these proceedings you used plural,

21 saying "we." I suppose that what you had in mind is that Dodaj Hajdar and

22 you stood trial together; isn't that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So you were co-indictees in the same trial from beginning until it

25 was concluded; is that right?

Page 10206

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now that we have touched upon him, let me ask you this: Based on

3 what you said yesterday it seems that you were together with him

4 throughout the entire time, both when leaving the JNA, when staying in

5 Vukovar, and then in the hospital, and then at Ovcara and Negoslavci,

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you separate from him at some point in time, or were you

9 indeed together through all of these events?

10 A. No, we were not together through all of these events. We just

11 fled together from the JNA, and then the period that we spent in the

12 Vukovar police we were together then. And later on we separated and met

13 up again in the hospital.

14 Q. All right. We will get to that. But let us begin from that

15 period of time. After the hospital, you were together at Ovcara and did

16 not separate from then on; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You were taken to Negoslavci together and were there together

19 throughout?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And finally you were taken together to Belgrade, to Topcider?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You probably remember the charges that the military prosecutor put

24 forward against you. There were three crimes: Deserting the JNA on your

25 own initiative; then the second one was unlawful possession of weapons;

Page 10207

1 and the third one was armed rebellion. Do you remember that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you have a lawyer in that trial?

4 A. I did.

5 Q. Is it true that you had, in fact, as many as two defence counsel,

6 Mr. Nikola Barovic and Mr. Slobodan Tomic?

7 A. Yes, the two of them and then another lady who was

8 court-appointed, so I had a total of three.

9 Q. Do you have Zorica Petronijevic-Gajic in mind?

10 A. Yes. So she was first appointed by the court and then two lawyers

11 from Belgrade were engaged.

12 Q. Yes, but this lady was appointed by court and she remained as

13 defence counsel for Dodaj Hajdar, who did not have counsel retained by

14 him.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then in addition to her you also had these two lawyers who

17 were retained by you and your family and paid by you; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now that we're dealing with this trial, do you remember that in

20 the statement mentioned here given to the OTP investigators you said that

21 during the trial you managed to contact your family via your lawyer to

22 tell them that you were alive. Do you remember saying this to the

23 investigators?

24 A. It's possible.

25 Q. Is it also true that your mother came to Belgrade, came to visit

Page 10208

1 you and attended the trial?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You described to us today what you experienced in Topcider. I

4 would like to know whether this trial before the military court was done

5 in accordance with the then regulations in force and does this also apply

6 to the investigations stage?

7 A. At the military court in Belgrade, we were abused by the guards.

8 We were beaten by them.

9 Q. Were you personally beaten or somebody else?

10 A. I was.

11 Q. Did you tell this to your lawyers, Mr. Barovic and Mr. Tomic?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. Did they do anything about it?

14 A. They said they would do everything needed about it to ensure that

15 this wouldn't happen again.

16 Q. Did this happen again afterwards?

17 A. Yes, it did, but not as often.

18 Q. Did you state this in court, be it in the presence of the

19 investigative judge or the trial chamber, did you say anything to them

20 about it?

21 A. No, nobody asked me about it.

22 Q. Didn't you think it was needed to voice this in your defence?

23 Didn't you think it was necessary to mention this just like you thought it

24 was necessary to say it to Mr. Smith today?

25 A. When the prison warden toured the facility, and whenever he saw

Page 10209

1 people with bruises he would ask them kindly about the origin of it. So

2 what do you think we dared tell him? We told him that we slipped and fell

3 and hit ourselves. He knew very well what this was all about, but he only

4 laughed about it. So there was no point in telling anything to anyone.

5 Because it would only produce worse conditions for us if we talked about

6 it.

7 Q. I didn't ask you about the prison warden; I asked you about the

8 trial chamber. This trial was a public one. You had two lawyers retained

9 by you. Did you mention this to the trial chamber ever?

10 A. I don't think so.

11 Q. Sometime in September of 1991 you decided to desert the JNA and to

12 flee. Did you then consider that there would be legal implications and

13 that later on you could be charged with very serious crimes as, in fact,

14 did happen?

15 A. No, I wasn't aware of that. I wasn't thinking about that at all.

16 My only goal was to get away, to flee. We just wanted to go back to our

17 homes.

18 Q. Very well. We will go back to that period of time. This was when

19 you reached the positions between Negoslavci and Luzac; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You said that your unit was deployed to a certain area, held

22 positions there, that there were tanks and armoured vehicles there. And

23 there were about 100 of -- soldiers there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were those the only positions that you ever held with your unit in

Page 10210

1 that part of the front?

2 A. Yes, as far as I am concerned.

3 Q. Do you have any idea how far that area was from Vukovar itself?

4 A. The closest settlement to that field was the suburb of Vukovar,

5 known as Luzac. And the downtown area of Vukovar was quite far away.

6 Q. Between that location and the town -- or rather, could one see the

7 town from there, or were there any woods or hills that would obstruct your

8 view?

9 A. Those were flat-lands, just cornfields.

10 Q. But in view of this considerable distance, tell us, could one see

11 the town from that area?

12 A. Yes, the outskirts, but not the centre of the town.

13 Q. Do you remember how many days you stayed there on those positions

14 before you decided to flee?

15 A. A couple of days, perhaps four to five.

16 Q. Yes, that's what you mentioned in your earlier statements. That's

17 why I asked you this. If I were to tell you that your mate, Dodaj, told

18 you -- told us that you spent 24 days in those positions, what would you

19 say who was right, he or you?

20 A. I am right as concerns these positions. But prior to that, near

21 Negoslavci and in that axis, we spent some 20 days there. And then when

22 we reached these positions then we spent a couple of days there, as far as

23 I can remember.

24 Q. Yes, but those were the only positions that you were at from the

25 beginning until you left the JNA?

Page 10211

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Throughout that time while you were on the positions, did you fire

3 a single bullet? I assume that you had your own personal weapon.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you please qualify this answer. Was this yes, I had a

6 weapon; or yes, I fired from it?

7 A. I had a weapon, and at one point I also fired from it.

8 Q. Do you remember when you fired from the weapon?

9 A. The shooting started out of the blue. We just heard there is an

10 attack coming, everybody into trenches. There were four or five soldiers

11 there shooting, and then they asked me, well, why weren't you shooting?

12 And that out of fear I had to start firing myself.

13 Q. Do you remember what soldiers were with you on that occasion? Was

14 Dodaj among them?

15 A. No, he wasn't with me in that trench. Nor -- or rather, these

16 soldiers were a mixed group from various units. I didn't even know some

17 of them.

18 Q. All right. So that was the single situation of that nature, and

19 you fired randomly. You didn't even know whether there was an actual

20 attack in progress?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. While you were there on the positions, was there an attack on your

23 positions from artillery pieces or some other weaponry?

24 A. As far as I know, no.

25 Q. Had there been any, you probably would have remembered that as

Page 10212

1 something quite distinct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you remember whether one of your commanding officers was

4 wounded at some point in time? I think that this involved a captain.

5 A. No, not in the positions where I was.

6 Q. And you didn't hear anything of this sort while you were there.

7 Did I understand you well?

8 A. I think that I heard that somebody had been wounded, that a shell

9 had fallen and possibly, as you said, an officer was wounded. But I

10 didn't see him.

11 Q. You told us who were the people that you discussed fleeing with,

12 and I would like to know whether you were with those people together in

13 order to implement this. You just told us that Dodaj wasn't with you,

14 although he had fled with you?

15 A. He wasn't with me in that trench. Not in that specific area,

16 although we were together in that general area. So after lunch, for

17 example, or whenever everybody gathered at some location, we would see

18 each other. So we got together then, we discussed the situation, we

19 concluded that the war had begun and that we would be forced to take part

20 in the attack against Vukovar. Since we were Croats, the other one was an

21 Albanian and the fourth one was a Muslim, we didn't want to take part in

22 that attack and so we decided to flee.

23 Q. You say the idea was for all of you to just go home, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But that wasn't where you headed, was it? And you didn't go to

Page 10213

1 the Marinci where Duhanaj was from. You went back to Vukovar, did you

2 not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Would it not have been less dangerous and just as possible to head

5 in a different direction, if indeed you wanted to go home. You should

6 have gone elsewhere and tried to discard your uniforms and weapons?

7 A. We were not familiar with the area, we had no idea where to go.

8 Lorenc was the only one who knew the area, knew his way around, and he

9 said the simplest and nearest thing would be to go to Luzac, that suburb

10 of Vukovar, where he had relatives, that these relatives would then take

11 us to the centre of Vukovar and that we would be taken back to our homes

12 from there on. And that was the only thing we could do, because none of

13 us were actually familiar with the area.

14 Q. Does that mean he was assuming that you could go in and out of

15 Vukovar at the time?

16 A. I don't know what he was assuming. It was our own personal

17 responsibility, come what may.

18 Q. I think his family lived in Marinci, which is near Vinkovci; that

19 was an area in Croatia where there were no combat operations at the time.

20 Wouldn't it have been logical for him, who knew his way around, to try and

21 take you there?

22 A. You should ask him. You should ask him that. I don't know. I

23 didn't know what to do. All I wanted was to go back home.

24 Q. Very well. Was there an agreement or did you just set out on that

25 day without any previous agreement with anyone on the other side?

Page 10214

1 A. We were making plans. We spent about one or two days hatching

2 plans. There were other Croats there from Osijek and Slavonski Brod. We

3 were all caught in that situation. There were five of us who decided to

4 try and escape, and that was our final decision. Some didn't have the

5 courage to go, so they decided to stay behind. We didn't seize our

6 opportunity on that day and then we said well, come hell or high tide.

7 Q. You crossed the cornfield, you reached Vukovar, and you went

8 straight to the police station, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What happened with your weapons and uniforms?

11 A. When we arrived in Luzac, the Vukovar suburb, he really tracked

12 down this relative of his who gave us some civilian clothes. We changed

13 right there, we discarded our JNA uniforms and put on some civilian

14 clothes, and this man then took us to the Vukovar police station.

15 Q. Did I get this right: Nobody arrested you, just because you were

16 wearing those uniforms. You -- you changed at this relative's place, and

17 then he took you all the way to the police station at civilians, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what happened to your weapons? Were you still carrying or had

20 you left it behind somewhere?

21 A. No, we left that behind.

22 Q. What happened at the police station? How long were you there for?

23 You say you were vetted. Does that mean that you had to be there under

24 surveillance until they were finished vetting you, as it were?

25 A. Yes. You might call that several days' detention, actually, until

Page 10215

1 we were thoroughly checked, until they found out who we were and what we

2 were there for.

3 Q. What were you told then?

4 A. They allowed us to call our families.

5 Q. All right. You have explained that. You called your aunt in

6 Zagreb. That same day that you were brought to the police station, do you

7 remember another group of soldiers coming?

8 A. Not that same day. But several days later it is indeed true that

9 two other soldiers were brought in, soldiers we knew from our previous

10 area. Allegedly these men had been captured.

11 Q. Why do you say allegedly captured? Were you told that they were

12 captured or not?

13 A. They didn't say. They didn't make it clear whether they had

14 escaped by accident or had been captured. They were brought in as

15 detainees, that much is certain.

16 Q. Who were those two men?

17 A. Petar Kuscevic and a Muslim named Rasid.

18 Q. How were they treated? The same as you or different?

19 A. The same. When they were captured they probably said they were

20 Croats, and we confirmed that they were from the same unit. They were

21 checked, just like we were, they spent some time in detention.

22 Q. You spoke about your role after the checks. You performed some

23 auxiliary tasks, I think that was the expression you used, and then the

24 going got tough, I think that was the expression you used. In relation to

25 the fall of Vukovar, can you remember when exactly this was that you

Page 10216

1 actively joined the work of the police forces?

2 A. That was the last 20 days or so.

3 Q. Were you already in possession of a weapon, you personally and

4 those who were with you?

5 A. Not for as long as we were at the police station. Until we were

6 sent to the front line to go and help out. We were given weapons and

7 ammunition at this point, but not before.

8 Q. The same weapons that you had brought with you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. How do you know? The make, the type of the weapon?

11 A. Yes, the type of the weapon.

12 Q. Do you know what became of the weapons that you brought on you

13 when you reached the police station?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. I do assume that you gave a statement when you arrived at the

16 police station telling them that you came with a weapon or that you had

17 left it somewhere. I suppose one of them might have wanted to pick that

18 weapon up at some point, right?

19 A. Yes. We told them that we'd left our weapons there, and then

20 probably somebody did go to fetch it later on. The police or someone.

21 Q. Were you given police uniforms at the time, and were you actually

22 using those?

23 A. Yes. Police reserve uniforms.

24 Q. You've mentioned that 20 days before the fall of Vukovar and you

25 said you had to go to the front line. As for you personally, which

Page 10217

1 section of the front line did you go to?

2 A. As far as I could tell, it was near Luzac.

3 Q. You were saying also that several days before the fall of Vukovar

4 people were talking and some people were in favour of trying to escape.

5 Did you perhaps know at the time that Vukovar's commander left the command

6 and left Vukovar altogether on those very days?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was this communicated to you, was there anything official that you

9 were told, or did you just find out in a different way?

10 A. The police command was in a basement somewhere. When we arrived

11 there, three groups were set up for what was referred to a break-through

12 but really amounted to an escape. The commander gathered up his 10

13 active-duty police officers; that was the first group. There was another

14 group, and I myself was a member of that third group that was set to

15 attempt an escape. The first group pulled it off, but the second group

16 and the third group, my own, failed.

17 Q. You have explained, I believe, that your group decided to go back

18 because one of your own had been injured by a mine, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where exactly did this happen?

21 A. We tried several times later on with small groups to escape, to

22 get out. And then this happened. I think it was near the Vuka River, as

23 far as I could tell. He stepped on a mine and it blew his foot to pieces,

24 so we had to take him back to the hospital.

25 Q. So this entire area that you were passing through was still not

Page 10218

1 JNA-controlled, since people were still being injured by mines?

2 A. He probably stepped on one of our own mines, because we had no

3 idea about the Croatian minefields or where they were.

4 Q. "One of our own," you mean a mine laid by the Croatian defenders

5 to block areas from which they were expecting an attack. And what you're

6 trying to say is that you yourselves were not aware of the exact positions

7 of those minefields, right?

8 A. Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying.

9 Q. In addition to this injured person, who else was with you on that

10 day?

11 A. Lorenc Duhanaj was the only one I knew, but there were some other

12 people there, just that I didn't know them.

13 Q. What about Dodaj Hajdar?

14 A. I don't think he was with us.

15 Q. Did you meet up with him later on?

16 A. We all met at the hospital later on.

17 Q. When you say "we all," who exactly do you have in mind?

18 A. Hajdar, Hrkic, myself. Those people.

19 Q. If I understand you correctly, Dodaj was not with you, nor was

20 Hrkic when this man was wounded. You only saw them later on once you had

21 reached the hospital, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you carrying a weapon or wearing a uniform by the time you

24 reached the hospital? Can you tell us that, please?

25 A. When I reached the hospital, I was wearing civilian clothes. I'd

Page 10219

1 had a change of clothes, I had discarded my uniform, and by the time I

2 reached the hospital I was wearing civilian clothes.

3 Q. Had you put on civilian clothes before you set out to try and

4 escape?

5 A. No.

6 Q. That means you must have stopped off somewhere between that place

7 your friend was wounded and the hospital. You had to get a change of

8 clothes somewhere?

9 A. We left him at the hospital and then I went back to get a change

10 of clothes, after which I again went back to the hospital.

11 Q. Thank you. I understand now how this happened. You were wearing

12 a uniform and, I suppose, carrying a weapon when you left him at the

13 hospital; but then you went back, you got a change of clothes, and you

14 returned to the hospital?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did all of this happen on the same day?

17 A. You mean did I get a change of clothes on the same day or ...

18 Q. It's just for the transcript and for the sake of the

19 interpretation, if you could please just make a brief pause after each of

20 my questions and I will do the same after your answers.

21 Let me repeat this just to make it clear. You arrived at the

22 hospital, you left Lorenc there; he had been wounded. You were wearing a

23 uniform and carrying a weapon. You went back to get a change of clothes,

24 you changed into civilian clothes, and then went back to the hospital. My

25 question is: Did all of this happen within the space of just a single day

Page 10220

1 or later on?

2 A. It wasn't on that day; it was that night or evening, if you like.

3 It was the next day that I came back to the hospital wearing civilian

4 clothes. And we had left him at the hospital the previous evening.

5 Q. Thank you. You explained about the change of clothes, but what

6 did you do with your weapon?

7 A. I simply threw it away.

8 Q. Was that then the second time you went to the hospital? And where

9 did you get rid of your clothes, where did you throw them away?

10 A. I don't know exactly, I think that there was a container close by

11 and that I threw the clothes in the container.

12 Q. When you say that the container was close by, do you mean that it

13 was close to the hospital? Is that what you mean?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know where Dodaj left his weapon?

16 A. No, I don't.

17 Q. You weren't there, he wasn't with you at the time; is that

18 correct?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I would just like to make sure that the answer was clear. It

21 says "no," but actually what you were confirming is that you don't know

22 where he threw the weapon away because you were not with him at that time;

23 is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I'm not going to ask you questions about the time you were at the

Page 10221

1 hospital; my colleagues are going to deal with that.

2 I'm going to move on to what you described when you came to the

3 barracks in the buses. Do you remember that you talked about that

4 yesterday, and of course prior to that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. My first question is: Yesterday I think in your answer you said

7 that except for the driver there was another person in uniform who you

8 thought was a military policeman; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you still stand by that answer, that that's how it was?

11 A. Yes, an armed driver wearing a JNA uniform and a military

12 policeman, armed. A guard.

13 Q. The bus, who else was in the bus that you knew?

14 A. Hajdar Dodaj was in that bus.

15 Q. What about Kuscevic and Hrkic?

16 A. They were in another bus in front of us.

17 Q. Yesterday you said that there were insults hurled at you at that

18 place by people who were going around, moving around the bus. I assume

19 that that is something that you heard through the glass, through the

20 windows. I assume that this is something that you observed while the

21 buses were standing in front of the barracks. Is that correct?

22 A. I heard what they were saying, but they were also coming in

23 through the front door of the bus that was open. So I heard it also in

24 the bus when they were saying that they were going to kill us and so on

25 and insulted us. They came in the bus, they were beating the people who

Page 10222

1 were sitting in the front seats of the bus, and they were saying, "We are

2 going to kill you all."

3 Q. The person who was guarding the bus that you mentioned, did he

4 allow those persons to come into the bus or was he preventing them from

5 doing so?

6 A. He wasn't preventing anyone from coming in. He himself, when he

7 had the opportunity -- well, actually, no, he was also beating the people

8 up there.

9 Q. But nobody actually reached you in the bus, they were not able to

10 do so; is that correct?

11 A. They could have reached me. I was sitting towards the back of the

12 bus, all the way in the back of the bus.

13 Q. I'm asking you this because there were statements from witnesses

14 who did say that nobody was allowed to enter the bus.

15 A. I am talking about my bus, that was how it was. I don't know

16 about other buses.

17 Q. You said that at one point in time somebody came in and called out

18 certain number of persons, and I think you said that only one man was

19 called out from your bus; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. And you said that you think that that man was from Zagreb. How do

22 you know that? Do you know who this person was?

23 A. I don't know his name, but I know that the man tried to defend

24 himself, that he was recognised by a local man for having fired at his

25 tank. I heard him, he was immediately in front of me, and he was saying,

Page 10223

1 "It's not me, I'm from the Zagreb, I'm not from around here at all." But

2 in any case, they did come to get him and they brought him out.

3 Q. His name was read out from a list, his last name appeared on that

4 list; is that correct?

5 A. There was no list that was read out.

6 Q. Was that the only person who was called out and who left the bus?

7 A. Yes, that was the only person taken out from my bus.

8 Q. In 1998 you gave a statement, and you confirmed that today, for

9 the Dokmanovic case; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On page 649 of the transcript from that trial you said that four

12 to five people were taken out from your bus. How is it possible to have

13 this discrepancy?

14 A. Now that we're talking about that, it's possible, because when we

15 came to Ovcara, before we reached Ovcara, that's when soldiers entered the

16 bus and they asked if there were any Albanians on the bus, or Siptars.

17 The people who were Albanian stood up and a couple of them were taken out.

18 Q. Thank you very much. We've already heard about Ovcara and we will

19 come to that. I think that that was not the -- we will discuss this a

20 little bit later.

21 The buses left the barracks and, as you explained yesterday, you

22 didn't know that it was Ovcara?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Well, could you please wait until the end, because that way we

25 will have everything in the transcript. So you came to an area, the buses

Page 10224

1 stopped there, you saw the hangar there, and much later you heard that

2 this was actually the location of Ovcara; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. According to your statement you were in -- inside one of the last

5 buses, or the buses that were at the back of the column; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When your bus stopped, all the buses that had left at the same

8 time as yours from the barracks were in front of your bus; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If, let's say this was the fourth bus in the line of -- it is said

12 that that was the fourth out of a total of five buses and it was towards

13 the back of the line, can we agree that that was at least 150 metres or

14 more from the place where the people were coming out of the first buses at

15 the front?

16 A. When the people disembarked from the bus, the bus would drive off,

17 and then the next bus would come. The buses were aligned -- lined up one

18 behind the other. There was no space between the buses.

19 Q. Yes, but you were in the line until the bus ahead would leave, so

20 you were -- you would then move, you were aware of what was going on.

21 When did you notice Hrkic and Kuscevic, who you said were in the front

22 buses, I assume that they were in the bus in front of yours?

23 A. When it was our bus's turn, and we were supposed to go out, the

24 people in the front of the bus began to leave the bus, we were at the

25 back, and as we were going out we could see Kuscevic and Hrkic to the

Page 10225

1 side, waiting for us from the side with an officer, and they were even

2 pointing at the two of us.

3 Q. So you saw the two of them and an officer standing next to them.

4 Just one officer or more?

5 A. Just one was standing there at that time.

6 Q. Who was that officer in relation to the ones that you described

7 yesterday?

8 A. I don't know who he was. I don't know his name. I said that he

9 was middle-aged, but I really couldn't tell you definitely who it was. I

10 couldn't give you his first and last name.

11 Q. You mentioned that when you left the bus you spoke with an officer

12 for a long time. You even said that it was for about 40 minutes. Is that

13 the same officer who was waiting for you whom you talked with first?

14 A. No, that was not a conversation with an officer lasting 40

15 minutes. That is our stay in Ovcara before we were taken off to

16 Negoslavci. We talked and then we were free. When the soldiers -- when

17 they thought we were JNA soldiers that were captured, then we weren't

18 allowed to walk around.

19 Q. So you were allowed to be there and wait freely for what was

20 coming next?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was it to the left or the right of the hangar that you were

23 standing?

24 A. You mean where we were standing when we left the bus? The hangar

25 was to the right, the entrance was to the right, and we were standing a

Page 10226

1 little bit off to the left side. We could look at the open door, and we

2 could look and see inside the hangar.

3 Q. On the other side of the road where the buses were going or were

4 you standing on the same side of the road?

5 A. It was a very narrow, small road, and we were standing to the

6 right side.

7 Q. You mentioned first that this officer who was standing with Hrkic

8 and Kuscevic talked with you and you probably, the two of you, confirmed

9 that you were JNA soldiers who were captured. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How long did you stand there with him and speak with him? You

12 said that this did not last for 40 minutes, 40 minutes was the total

13 amount of time that you spent there?

14 A. He asked us which unit we were from, which military post number we

15 were from, who was the officer. That was the conversation, in brief. It

16 was a short conversation.

17 Q. Did you see other officers there at the time?

18 A. There was another group of three or four officers a little bit off

19 further down in relation to where this officer was standing.

20 Q. And did you speak with any of those other officers?

21 A. No. The four of us stood off separately and a couple of regular

22 JNA soldiers came up to us.

23 Q. Yes, you described that yesterday. They offered you cigarettes

24 and they spoke with you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10227

1 Q. So you didn't speak with any other officers other than this one

2 officer before you left?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. Which of the officers did you go in the jeep to Negoslavci? Was

5 that the same one that you talked to or someone else?

6 A. The one that we talked with was, I think, the one who entered the

7 vehicle and that he went to Negoslavci.

8 Q. Yes, that was my question. You think that it was him, that he

9 went with you and that he took you. Thank you.

10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would suggest that

11 we go on our first break now, if it's a convenient moment.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

13 We will have the first break now for 20 minutes.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

17 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, thank you very much. May I just deal

18 with one small matter of housekeeping, and it is not bad news in any way

19 at all, so Your Honour can rest easy.

20 Your Honour, next Monday Mr. Grujic returns. My learned friend

21 Mr. Lukic, I think, has indicated that he may take two, two and a half

22 hours in cross-examination for him. We have a protected witness coming

23 then, he comes in this weekend for proofing, that's 002. I would have

24 thought that he will take the 13th and the 14th for his evidence, perhaps

25 a little of the 15th. I would not anticipate it would take a long time in

Page 10228

1 chief, myself.

2 We are able to commence Theunens on the 15th, so the Court is

3 aware of that. However, and in fairness to my learned friends, they have

4 always worked on the basis that Theunens would start on the 19th as indeed

5 Your Honour has already indicated it will be two days Theunens, then

6 Kostovic, and two days Pringle. That would mean then that matters should

7 conclude on Friday, the 23rd.

8 The problem, if it be a problem, is that clearly the 15th and 16th

9 are days where we do not have witnesses. We have experts, they are not

10 able to come except for these days. And for my part, it's entirely a

11 matter for the Court, we would not seek to commence calling Theunens on

12 the 15th or 16th, unless the Court wished, but it is available if needs

13 be.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore. If it is the position that

15 it is convenient to Defence counsel and their experts for Mr. Theunens to

16 start earlier than presently planned, if that could be indicated it would

17 enable us to have just a little more time with each of those expert

18 witnesses. But if that is not convenient in view of the arrangements

19 you've had in place, well then, we will remain with the present plan for

20 the witness Kostovic and the two experts to be in that one week when, as I

21 understand it, Defence experts are here.

22 Mr. Vasic.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 I'm afraid that I cannot give you a final confirmation. I still

25 haven't finalised my arrangements with our expert. We don't know if he

Page 10229

1 can come on the 15th or 16th. I will try to find this out by the end of

2 the week, and I will then inform the Trial Chamber. In accordance with

3 our previous arrangements, I scheduled him for the 19th.

4 There is another matter. I think that my learned friend,

5 Mr. Lukic, when we discussed this last time in the courtroom, mentioned

6 another matter; namely, that the Defence needs some time to study the

7 report of Mr. Theunens, which is several hundred pages long. This is in

8 compliance with the earlier ruling of the Trial Chamber, and this is why

9 we thought that we would need all the time remaining until the 19th.

10 It seems to me that Mr. Moore originally wanted to call

11 Mr. Kostovic and then the military experts were to follow. Has this been

12 changed, or is this still valid? It seems that based on what we heard,

13 Kostovic could cover precisely this period of time, Thursday and Friday,

14 the 15th and 16th.

15 JUDGE PARKER: At the moment Mr. Kostovic is planned for Wednesday

16 of that week, with Mr. Theunens the Monday and Tuesday, and Mr. Pringle

17 the Thursday and Friday. It was hoped, though, that Mr. Kostovic would

18 take less than a day so as to allow a little more room. I'm sure if it is

19 the case that a witness such as Mr. Kostovic can be got here for the two

20 days of the preceding week, well then, it could be fitted in, but I see

21 from Mr. Moore that that is not possible. So he remains where he is.

22 It's being left entirely in the hands of Defence counsel whether

23 they are willing to have Theunens start on the Thursday and Friday of the

24 preceding week. If that is not feasible, no pressure, we will start him

25 on the Monday, and the evidence will be from the 19th to the 23rd of the

Page 10230

1 two experts and Kostovic. So it's only if it suits your convenience that

2 we would move Theunens earlier. But, if it's possible to learn by the end

3 of tomorrow, the end of sitting tomorrow, it would obviously facilitate

4 everybody's arrangements. All right? Thank you then.

5 Well, thank you, Mr. Moore.

6 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, I'm sorry, I thought you were ...

8 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to hear

9 the final schedule today, because last time when we discussed this I

10 invested certain efforts aimed at ensuring that my expert arrives here on

11 the 18th, so that he is ready for the courtroom on the 19th. Thursday and

12 Friday is not a problem for me if Mr. Theunens testifies because my expert

13 doesn't need to be here necessarily, but it seems now that even Monday is

14 uncertain. Or rather, for Pringle Thursday and Friday. If Kostovic comes

15 on Monday, that means that we have to reschedule everything once again. I

16 was prepared to accept your earlier suggestion and this is now a new

17 element. So as far as we are concerned, Theunens can begin on Thursday

18 and Friday.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic. Can I make it clear the

20 present programme, which will remain in place unless all Defence counsel

21 are in agreement to it changing, the present programme is for Monday and

22 Tuesday, the 19th and 20th, Theunens. Wednesday, or hopefully part of

23 Wednesday, the 21st, Kostovic. Thursday and Friday, the 22nd and 23rd,

24 Pringle. That's the programme. And that would mean the end of the

25 Prosecution case on the 23rd of June.

Page 10231

1 So if there is agreement by tomorrow evening we can hear of it -

2 by the cessation of our sitting at 1.45 tomorrow, not tomorrow evening -

3 we can let Mr. Moore arrange for Mr. Theunens to come earlier, but if that

4 is not convenient to Defence counsel, the programme that I have just

5 mentioned remains the programme. All clear?

6 Mr. Lukic.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Crystal clear, all of it.

8 I do wish to take advantage of Mr. Moore's presence for something

9 else. What I have in mind is his proposal about our witnesses'

10 statements.

11 In your ruling you say that written submissions should be filed by

12 Friday. I talked to Mr. Moore and it seems logical to us to wait for his

13 motion and then to file a response. I don't know if we should start

14 writing our own motion before we know what the OTP's position is on that.

15 So could the Chamber please issue a ruling in relation to that? This is

16 very important for our timing. Mr. Moore told me yesterday that he was

17 going to tender another 20 documents as exhibits, and he will be moving

18 for that. So I was just wondering if we could have a clear ruling from

19 the Trial Chamber on this.

20 JUDGE PARKER: If and when the Trial Chamber learns what this is

21 all about, a ruling may be possible.

22 Mr. Moore.

23 MR. MOORE: Yes. The -- dealing with the last point, there are

24 certain exhibits in the 65 ter list which we will submit should go before

25 the Court to be tendered from the bar table. There are not very many. I

Page 10232

1 think actually there could only be perhaps 10 exhibits.

2 There are interviews by these defendants in Belgrade, and they can

3 be distinguished into what are called statements and interviews. They

4 were compiled in 1998; I believe in March and in December. We will be

5 submitting that at the very least the statements made by these defendants

6 should be -- or are admissable and should therefore go before the Court.

7 I have spoken to my learned friend Mr. Lukic about it. I thought I had

8 mentioned it to the court in slightly elliptical terms, because I wanted

9 to speak to and clarify with Mr. Lukic exactly the position.

10 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber is aware only that there is some

11 discussion between counsel over whether or not these are admissable and

12 that it may become an issue for decision.

13 MR. MOORE: Yes. And the question that we were asking ourselves

14 was whether it can be done orally or whether it can be done written form.

15 In my submission, it's better if it's done in written form. And I was not

16 aware there was any timetable for, as it were, tomorrow evening, because,

17 quite simply, it is not a simple issue, but we certainly could have it

18 before the Court by Monday at midday.

19 That is the only other issue that there is. That we would submit

20 that these which are official records, official transcripts of interviews

21 that they go before the Court as evidence. But there is no great problem

22 with regard to time, as far as I can see. I see Mr. Lukic is nodding in

23 agreement with that. It is the case of whether they are admissable or

24 whether they are not.

25 JUDGE PARKER: By the sound of it, Mr. Lukic is right in thinking

Page 10233

1 that there will be need for a ruling. There will be a decision given as

2 to whether these documents are admitted into evidence or not, but that

3 will only be made when we've either had written submissions from all

4 parties, or oral. And it would seem better if they were written.

5 Mr. Moore has indicated Monday at 12.00 for his submissions. And the

6 question is by what time it would be convenient for the Defence to have

7 their answering submissions.

8 Wednesday, I wonder?

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would be grateful, as we shall be

10 sitting on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday for the whole day, and

11 Mr. Moore has just indicated that this is a crucial topic, to have a

12 dead-line for Friday. I believe all three teams will have to confer to

13 reach some sort of conclusion on this. And I believe I have a pretty

14 clear idea already of what Mr. Moore's motion is going to be about.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Monday, midday, Mr. Moore, for your written

16 submissions and a motion, if it's a formal motion. Friday, midday for the

17 three Defence teams' responses. That probably means Friday 11.00 a.m. for

18 the decision. No, that can't be right, can it. If you want instant

19 answers out of the Chamber, we will give it attention as soon as we can

20 after receiving the written submissions. Very well.

21 We can now continue. I'm sorry to have kept you waiting.

22 Mr. Domazet.

23 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zlogledja, let us please continue.

25 You remembered the situation faced by the four of you there. You

Page 10234

1 were standing there talking to that officer. After that you were with

2 some other soldiers awaiting transportation. That vehicle and that

3 officer who you left with about 40 minutes later. You said you saw a

4 handful of other officers standing nearby.

5 My question now is in relation to something you said yesterday in

6 answer to one of the questions that were asked about your own 1996

7 statement to the OTP investigators. You say that the investigators showed

8 you several photographs from a set. You do remember saying that

9 yesterday, don't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. While looking at these photographs, you first told the OTP that

12 you believed that one of the officers in a photograph was a person you

13 assumed to be some sort of a commander. It wasn't before later on that

14 you were told that this person was General Panic, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Likewise you saw photographs of a person who you said rang a bell.

17 You were later told that this person was Colonel Mrksic. You said the

18 name had a familiar ring to it, but you didn't remember hearing the name

19 in Vukovar. Is that a fair summary?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So you looked at some photographs from this set, and these persons

22 struck you as looking very much like some officers whom you had seen at

23 Ovcara?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. However, two years later, in 1998, you testified in the Dokmanovic

Page 10235

1 case where you failed to mention this at all. You never mentioned Panic,

2 Mrksic or actually recognising any of them. Is that correct?

3 A. I don't remember if anyone asked.

4 Q. That's all right. But they did ask yesterday, and you said a

5 thing or two about it. Who are the persons who look like Panic and Mrksic

6 in these photographs? You said that one officer you talked about a while

7 ago and then those three or four others standing nearby?

8 A. I can't say who exactly. There was someone looking very much

9 alike, but I can't be positive.

10 Q. Can we agree that there is no way you can have a positive ID,

11 there is no way you can certain that the persons you identified in those

12 photographs were really at Ovcara?

13 A. Yes, we can.

14 Q. When you were told about Panic's photograph they said General

15 Panic. Do we have any other officers called Panic? Was this General

16 Zivota Panic?

17 A. That's what I heard, General Panic. I didn't know his first name.

18 Q. Thank you. When I asked you about who was on the bus with you,

19 you mentioned Dodaj, and you said that Kuscevic and Hrkic were on a

20 different bus, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On page 5529 of his testimony Dodaj says that both Kuscevic and

23 were on the bus with him and with you. Do you still stand by your

24 statement or could you perhaps be wrong, or is Dodaj wrong?

25 A. I stand by my statement.

Page 10236

1 Q. There were a number of other discrepancies, some of which I'm

2 about to point out to you. On 5661, 5663 and 5664 Dodaj says that when

3 you were with him in the group at Ovcara he saw two lieutenant-colonels

4 and another officer who arrived in a Puch. He says they were no other

5 officers there. Is he right or are you right? You have been speaking

6 about three or four officers being there.

7 MR. SMITH: Objection, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Smith.

9 MR. SMITH: It's a brief objection just in relation to the method

10 of these questioning, questions, in putting the witness in a position to

11 say whether or not his testimony or another person's testimony is correct.

12 I don't think the witness should be put in that position. I think it's a

13 decision for the Trial Chamber at the end of the day, and it just creates

14 an extra undue influence on the way that the witness may wish to answer

15 the questions.

16 JUDGE PARKER: You can rephrase that, can you, Mr. Domazet? Thank

17 you.

18 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zlogledja, let me try to rephrase this. What

20 would you say if I were to tell you that we heard another witness who

21 described this situation and the officers differently, saying that there

22 were only two lieutenant-colonels there and another officer who arrived in

23 a Puch? And you were there together throughout.

24 A. I don't know what he said. I know what I saw.

25 Q. Speaking of Dodaj, we know that you were with him from the

Page 10237

1 beginning to the very end, through all these important situations. I

2 suppose you got close in a way. Do you believe him to be your friend, and

3 did you stay friends after all of this happened?

4 A. I do see him as a friend, but we haven't really been in touch.

5 Q. If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Zlogledja, when you were exchanged in the

6 summer of 1992 Dodaj was not with you. He remained in prison to serve out

7 his sentence, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So you didn't see him back then. My question is: After 1992,

10 after your return from Valjevo to Croatia, did you ever see him again,

11 did you ever talk to him again?

12 A. We did meet in The Hague the first time we were here. He was here

13 too, and we met. We met and we talked.

14 Q. I suppose you're talking about the Dokmanovic case, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you ever talk later on, or did you ever phone each other?

17 A. We did speak on the phone once after that. We were supposed to

18 meet, we were trying to set up a meeting, he was supposed to come over and

19 see me, but he never did, and then we sort of lost touch.

20 Q. Did you talk to him about his or your own health, any health

21 problems that you have? Did you speak about that? Did you perhaps talk

22 about that on the phone?

23 A. No, we didn't discuss any health issues. It was more of a general

24 conversation where each of us were, where our families were staying,

25 children, that sort of thing.

Page 10238

1 Q. You considered him a friend back at the time, and you still do.

2 I'm not under the impression that you believe him to be someone who would

3 be inclined to testify against you or to try to put you at some sort of a

4 disadvantage.

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. When you returned to Croatia in mid-1992 -- or rather, you

7 explained to my learned friend a while ago how you gave that statement in

8 1994. You remember that, don't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Well, first of all, you left prison in 1992, and you went back to

11 Croatia. Did you not have any contact at all between 1992 and 1994 with

12 any officials? Did no officials try to approach you and ask you for an

13 interview?

14 A. No, this was the only time that I got a summons for an interview

15 from the police.

16 Q. You said today that you had an opportunity in The Hague to read

17 that official note and to familiarise yourself with its substance. You

18 did go through it, didn't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The date seems to indicate that this was produced on the 4th of

21 May 1994 in the anti-terrorist squad department of the Zagreb police

22 administration, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you actually remember, or do you want to have a look just to be

25 sure? We can provide a copy if you don't have one. But if you looked at

Page 10239

1 it recently, perhaps you'll remember. There is a detailed description

2 that you provide here, Valjevo, about perhaps going to Slovenia and then

3 finally going to Vukovar and all these persons that you mention here. Do

4 you remember all of that being in that statement?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. There is also a detailed explanation of how you escaped and what

7 you did later on in Vukovar until the surrender. However, what you just

8 said, what you testified in chief, is absolutely correct also. Not a

9 single word about Ovcara in this statement. Not a single word about

10 anything happening there. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When I say nothing at all about Ovcara, about you seeing someone

13 there, officers, or anyone else, about them passing through Ovcara, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The substance of this official note is you were captured and were

16 then taken to Negoslavci and then to Belgrade, and then you went on to

17 explain what exactly happened to you, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At the very end of this official note -- okay, this is the quote

20 and you can tell me if that's all right. That you said that you had tried

21 and done your best to remember all the details regarding the events that

22 the interview was about, but you were sure, you said at the time, that you

23 must have forgotten some of the details because of all the time that had

24 elapsed. Also, because you were trying to repress this in order to be

25 able to get on with your life. Did you perhaps state anything like that

Page 10240

1 to the person taking the interview?

2 A. I may as well have said something like that, but the gist of the

3 interview, I looked at it, I just couldn't believe my eyes. I saw names

4 there that I am sure I had never mentioned and about this time at the

5 Vukovar barracks. It's just that some of these bits don't tally at all.

6 They just don't tie in. I would never have said these things to anyone.

7 Nor would I have omitted the most important details.

8 Q. So you remember being at Ovcara and providing details about this,

9 right?

10 A. I don't understand your question.

11 Q. Fair enough. Am I to take your answer, this, now, to mean this:

12 That certainly you spoke about Ovcara and what happened at Ovcara to this

13 official of the police administration?

14 A. Well, if you look at the way the interview was conducted, it had

15 to be the case. It was about life and death. It was important for me to

16 mention that. I couldn't possibly have left that out.

17 Q. Thank you. However, we do agree that really this is not in the

18 official note. But there is a lot of insubstantial detail about your

19 movements before and after. Can we agree on that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I want to know about this too. You said that certain names were

22 included that you didn't know about. I see the names of your colleagues,

23 ones which you have confirmed. Could these be the names of other Croat

24 prisoners being mentioned here that you never mentioned as seeing?

25 A. I don't think so. There are certain names there, first names,

Page 10241

1 that I knew, but there are also surnames that I had never heard before.

2 Q. Yes, but we can agree that if you talked about what had occurred

3 at Ovcara that really, in relation to these details in this official note,

4 was a lot more important, wasn't it, while it doesn't say that what do you

5 think is the reason that this was in the official note. Do you think this

6 was a deliberate move on somebody's part, or do you think this could just

7 be a coincidence that that isn't mentioned here at all?

8 A. I don't know if it's deliberate or not. What I do know is I was

9 shocked when I looked at this report.

10 Q. So you were shocked. Do you then believe that the police

11 administration could have only omitted it on purpose from this official

12 note?

13 A. It is clear that this is not in the official note. Now, as to

14 whether they did it on purpose or this was an honest mistake, I don't

15 know, it's their business. I don't know what was in their mind.

16 Q. So you don't know of any reason for them to do this?

17 A. No.

18 Q. After that, and up until 1996, did you give any other statements

19 to any officials? When I say 1996, I'm referring to the interview with

20 the OTP.

21 A. Except for them, I never spoke to anyone else.

22 Q. And then you testified in the Dokmanovic case in early 1998,

23 right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would like to remind you of several pages from the Dokmanovic

Page 10242

1 transcript. I would like to establish whether that is consistent with

2 what you told us now. On page 652, back then in 1998, you described what

3 you saw at Ovcara. You were then asked about the total number, and you

4 answered that there were about 30 people. Then you were asked whether

5 there were more local Serbs or soldiers, and you said that there were a

6 bit more local Serbs. Do you remember stating that? I read this from the

7 transcript from page 652.

8 A. It's possible that I said that.

9 Q. Thank you. I asked you about the conversation with the officer,

10 because on page 656 it says that you spoke for that officer for as long as

11 an hour, and today you clarified that and said that your whole stay there

12 was much shorter, and you spoke during that time to soldiers and the

13 officer and so on, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. However, looking at that transcript I was unable to see that you

16 described seeing anything taking place in the hangar or anybody being

17 taken out of the hangar. Do you remember whether this was because no such

18 questions were put to you or is there any other reason?

19 A. I answered the questions that were put to me. I answered whatever

20 they asked me.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

24 Q. It seems to me that you did not speak of this today and yesterday.

25 Dodaj Hajdar, Kuscevic and Hrkic were with you, both in Negoslavci and in

Page 10243

1 Topcider. However, they were not in the indictment nor were they tried

2 and, in fact, if I'm right, the two of them were proposed as witnesses in

3 the trial against you?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Is it true that you stated that the two of them, I'm now referring

6 to Kuscevic and Hrkic, testified about you and Dodaj committing some

7 crimes, and that -- that's what I spoke about?

8 A. During our stay in Topcider we wrote dozens of statements. The

9 two of them, under duress, wrote a statement because they were pressured

10 into it. For example, to write that several soldiers were killed by them

11 and so on. They said that they didn't do it. But then they were beaten

12 and they were pressured, and they were asked, "Well, if you didn't do it,

13 who did." And then in order to get themselves out, they blamed us for it.

14 So they told these untruths about us in order to ease their own position.

15 Q. Is this your assumption, or do you have something to corroborate

16 this? How do you know that they stressed -- said this under duress? Is

17 it only on the basis of knowing that this was not true?

18 A. Because they would come to see what Dodaj and I were writing, and

19 then they would say, "You didn't write anything bad about your friends,

20 they wrote such things about you, so why don't you write about them, why

21 don't you write that they did this and that." And I told them that I was

22 unable to write that because as far as I knew, they did nothing wrong,

23 just like I didn't, and I couldn't write anything that wasn't true, and I

24 didn't.

25 Q. So based on that you concluded that they wrote something that

Page 10244

1 wasn't true, and they did it under duress and shifted the blame on you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I suppose that you were unable to contact them at the time?

4 A. No. Nobody could contact anyone or talk to anyone.

5 Q. Upon your return to Croatia and later, did you have any health

6 problems, were you treated for any condition? If necessary, we can go

7 into private session.

8 A. I did, yes.

9 Q. What type of problems did you have?

10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Perhaps we should go into private

11 session after all.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10245

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

16 [Defence counsel confer]

17 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. I have no further questions for you, except -- although this may

19 not be necessary either, but let me say to you that the position of the

20 Defence of Mr. Mrksic is that he was never at Ovcara, not even on the

21 occasion when you were there. However, we were able to clarify this with

22 you by checking whether you were sure that you saw such a person.

23 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have concluded with

24 my cross-examination.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

Page 10246

1 Mr. Borovic.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Borovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning. I would like to ask the usher to

4 give to the witness the statement he gave to the Prosecution, because I

5 intend to use it. Thank you.

6 Witness, you have before you the statement given to the OTP if I

7 need to remind you of something you stated at the time.

8 My first question to you is: You had military training before you

9 came to the Vukovar front, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The training lasted for several months. The answer was not

12 recorded. And your answer was what? When I said that you had several

13 months worth of training.

14 A. This was a fast-track training, an abbreviated one, and it may

15 have lasted three months.

16 Q. Thank you. During that training you were taught about the JNA

17 uniforms, branches of service, ranks and so on, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, would you please turn to the page 3, paragraph 5, that's in

20 English version, and you have the page in front of you. When describing

21 the arrival of soldiers on the 19th of November to the hospital, you

22 described in detail who approached you, what you talked about. That was a

23 brief conversation though. Then you described the situation with Zoran

24 and so on, and so on. Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10247

1 Q. However, when asked by my learned friend you said that this was a

2 soldier. In the statement given to the OTP, the statement in front of

3 you, do you see that in relation to all of these three elements you said

4 three times: "One of the soldiers, a military policeman approached me."

5 And then: "Serbian policeman recognised Zoran." And then you

6 said: "After some time military policemen came and picked up."

7 Would you please look at your statement and confirm that this is

8 in the text, that you mentioned the word "military policemen" three times

9 in relation to these elements that I just quoted to you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you stand by your previous statement that this was a military

12 policeman?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you now describe for us the uniform of that military

15 policeman? Can you describe his uniform, what he had on his head, whether

16 he had some belts?

17 A. Yes. He did. He had a uniform, naturally, had a helmet on his

18 head. Had a rifle.

19 Q. Thank you. And how did you know that he was a military policeman?

20 A. Because he had a white belt.

21 Q. Thank you. Following that you described the event which took

22 place on the 20th in the morning in the hospital. And on page 3,

23 paragraph 7 of the English version you said this: "In the morning the

24 hospital staff told us to move towards the exit."

25 Is that right?

Page 10248

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Does this mean that they were the only ones who gave you that

3 order at that time in the hospital?

4 A. The hospital staff told us, and we knew that an evacuation of the

5 hospital had been agreed, and that the hospital staff, together with

6 Mrs. Bosanac, went to discuss this with Mr. Mrksic, and that everything

7 had been arranged.

8 Q. So if I understood you well, this order and this recommendation

9 was given solely by the hospital staff, namely that you were to go out in

10 front of the hospital?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. In your statement, and I'm not sure whether you

13 mentioned this yesterday in your testimony, but in your statement, page 3,

14 paragraph 7 of the English version, and the page is in front of you, you

15 stated as follows: "I saw buses parked on the road. Members of the

16 military police ordered us to stand in one line, put our hands behind our

17 backs and keep our heads lowered."

18 Is that in your statement? Would you please look at it? The

19 other highlighted portion.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. My question on this is: What were these military policemen

22 wearing on the 20th of November in the morning in front of the hospital

23 when this was happening?

24 A. It was not just the military policemen.

25 Q. First I'm asking you about the military policemen and then we will

Page 10249

1 continue. How were they dressed?

2 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are going too fast.

3 A. They were wearing uniforms, cross belts, helmets.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Did any of their superior officers there issue orders how they

6 should search you, how you should go to the bus, did they have a superior

7 officer there, these military policemen?

8 A. The only one that I was able to see who was there was -- I don't

9 know exactly what he was, that's Captain Sljivancanin.

10 Q. You explained that yesterday.

11 A. He was in charge, nobody else was issuing orders, nor could have

12 been issuing orders.

13 Q. Thank you. Does that mean you didn't see any officers ordering

14 the military policemen to search you and to send you to the buses other

15 than what you have just said now?

16 A. All I saw was Sljivancanin and that he was in charge and that

17 everything went through him, that he was the person in charge there and

18 that he was organising everything in agreement with the rest of the staff.

19 Q. But did you see him issue direct orders? You assume that he was

20 in charge?

21 A. I saw him going in and out.

22 Q. Thank you. What were the officers that you saw there wearing?

23 This is also stated in your statement. You also said yourself that there

24 were other officers there, what were they wearing?

25 A. What were they wearing.

Page 10250

1 Q. Yes, can you please describe that.

2 A. The same, if the officers were wearing camouflage uniforms, caps.

3 Q. What kind of caps?

4 A. The camouflage caps with the flags, blue, white and red.

5 Q. Thank you. Did you see -- well, what was the visibility like at

6 that time?

7 A. This was when we left the hospital, between 8.00 and 9.00 in the

8 morning.

9 Q. Was it visible? Could you see well?

10 A. Of course you could.

11 Q. Thank you. Are you sure that you saw all of this well?

12 A. Yes, I am.

13 Q. Thank you. And nobody was dressed differently? I'm speaking

14 about the officers. They were not dressed differently than the way you

15 described?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. You also said in your statement to the OTP on page 3, paragraph 7

18 of the English version, that the officers searched you, that they were

19 there. So you confirmed actually what you just said now?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you now please turn to the next page?

22 For my learned friends from the Prosecution, this is page 4,

23 paragraph 4. I'm going to read it for you to make it easier for

24 you. "After a short drive we reached the Vukovar barracks." Is that

25 correct?

Page 10251

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It also says here: "Members of the military police then took

3 those people away." You said that and we talked about that today.

4 And now this last sentence is the most important: "I did not see

5 there any of the JNA officers who were in front of the hospital."

6 Is this correct, that you said this? So all the officers that you

7 registered in front of the entrance to the hospital or the exit to the

8 hospital, you did not see any of them at the barracks during the time you

9 were there until you left for Ovcara; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with this, I would

13 like to complete my cross-examination.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

15 Mr. Lukic.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good day once again, Your Honours.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

18 Q. Sir, good day. I am Novak Lukic, and I am one of the Defence team

19 of Mr. Sljivancanin, and I'm going to be putting some questions to you. I

20 don't want to go into questions that you've already replied to. I'm going

21 to make brief pauses just to make sure I don't ask the same questions

22 again.

23 I would just like to put a couple of questions in regard to the

24 detailed answers you gave to Mr. Domazet concerning your proceedings

25 before the military court.

Page 10252

1 Can we now please look at a document on the monitor? This is the

2 judgement against you which we received from the Prosecution. In e-court

3 it's 2D04-0008.

4 You will see it in front of you on the screen, this document.

5 Can we just zoom in on the document a little bit more, please.

6 And could we look at the middle part of the judgement. Thank you very

7 much. If we can scroll down. Thank you very much.

8 Very briefly, Mr. Zlogledja, do you -- are you familiar with this

9 document, this judgement by the -- the verdict by the military court in

10 Belgrade of the 2nd of March, 1992? It has a number of pages.

11 A. Yes, I am familiar with this document.

12 Q. What I, and we will not be dealing with the details here, but

13 factually what we described, or in your defence before that tribunal you

14 described the things identically in the way you described them in front of

15 this Tribunal --

16 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel is too fast, we cannot interpret all

17 of his question.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Before the tribunal your testimony coincides with the testimony

20 you provided here in relation to the facts that you talked about here.

21 A. To a certain extent, yes.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

23 introduce this exhibit into the file.

24 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 559, Your Honour.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

Page 10253

1 Q. You already testified today that you had contacts with Mr. Dodaj

2 practically here when you testified in 1998 because you were in The Hague

3 at the same time; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that you spent time together, then I assume you did not

6 discuss the case or the testimony then?

7 A. Yes, there was a lady here who said that we should not be

8 discussing those issues.

9 Q. Very well. Are you aware that he testified before you in this

10 case here that is underway right now? Are you aware of that?

11 A. Today in The Hague?

12 Q. Well, in this trial on the Vukovar three accused.

13 A. No, I didn't know that he testified here in The Hague before I did

14 in this case.

15 Q. Were you given the status of a defender of Vukovar, and did you

16 receive all the benefits arising from that status in accordance with the

17 regulations of the Republic of Croatia?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you perhaps receive a rank or some kind of recognition?

20 A. No.

21 Q. During all these years, did you ever go back to visit Vukovar

22 during the anniversaries of certain events there?

23 A. I never went to Vukovar since.

24 Q. You already talked about how you decided to join the defenders of

25 Vukovar. I'm not going to go into those details --

Page 10254


2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. -- although I did prepare some questions on that. I'm just going

4 to ask you about one detail. Do you remember any episodes during your,

5 let's say, fighting in Vukovar when Petar Kuscevic brought two tanks from

6 the Trpinjska Cesta road? Do you remember anything about that?

7 A. Yes, I do. I do remember him doing that.

8 Q. Can you tell us how this came about, how did he manage to bring in

9 two tanks from the other side, from the JNA? Do you know any details

10 about that?

11 A. I don't know. I think that there was some fighting there, there

12 was a clash, the tanks stayed behind, and that he brought back those two

13 tanks. I wasn't there. That's it, more or less.

14 Q. Do you know whether those tanks were then later used by your

15 units?

16 A. As far as I know, that tank or two tanks only had a couple of

17 shells. So there were no shells left.

18 Q. Very well. Now I'm going to move to, let's say, your decision to

19 go to the hospital. Yesterday and today you explained some details about

20 that. And yesterday you testified that when you took Lorenc, and today we

21 hear that after that you changed and then you came to the hospital. But

22 you said yesterday that according to you that was the safest place, the

23 hospital.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is that correct?

Page 10255

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You remember that, don't you?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. My question is: When you came to the hospital and when you

5 decided to stay, did you ask anyone there if you were permitted to stay at

6 the hospital?

7 A. I didn't ask anyone. This was just towards the end, and all the

8 civilians, the elderly, women, children, were pouring into the hospital

9 seeking shelter. And they kept coming in larger groups. They were much

10 safer and felt that they would be more likely to survive there than if

11 they remained in some basement or cellar somewhere. They were afraid that

12 they would be liquidated.

13 Q. I understand that, that's what part of what you said yesterday.

14 But you did not answer my question. Did you ask anyone if were you

15 permitted to stay at the hospital, this is my question, I'm sorry.

16 A. I did ask personnel, the personnel there, the staff there. I

17 think that it was mainly the director, but I did ask some of the personnel

18 there. Nobody told us to leave, nobody threw us out.

19 Q. At the point in time when you decided to stay, and as you say when

20 you asked any of the staff, you were not sick, you were not wounded and no

21 family members were amongst the personnel or the wounded at the hospital;

22 is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that is correct.

24 Q. During those couple of days that you stayed at the hospital before

25 the evacuation, other than the people you already mentioned, did you see

Page 10256

1 anyone else from the police station, or of the defenders whom you knew

2 from before, from combat operations or during the defence of Vukovar that

3 came there in the same way that you did? Do you remember anything like

4 that?

5 A. I remember a young man, the same age as me, perhaps he was a

6 couple of years older than me, I do remember him, he was an active

7 policeman in the Croatian police. He was also at the hospital. But he

8 left when the evacuation was carried out the day before.

9 Q. You're thinking of the 19th, most probably when all the civilians

10 were transferred in the afternoon?

11 A. Yes. All the civilians left, only the wounded stayed at the

12 hospital. Perhaps there were a few more who tried to stay behind, but I

13 know that he left in that evacuation.

14 Q. We heard testimony before this Tribunal that some defenders in the

15 last days and nights bandaged healthy parts of their body, they bandaged

16 themselves and put on patients' gowns. Did you see or hear anything like

17 that?

18 A. No, I didn't see anyone doing that, but I also heard myself that

19 there were such attempts.

20 Q. Did you hear of the surrender of the Mitnica group headed by Filip

21 Karaula in those days? We know specifically that it was on the 17th of

22 November, but did you hear about that when you were in the hospital?

23 A. I don't recall hearing anything about that. I know that that was

24 done, but I don't know who surrendered when and where. That is something

25 that I really couldn't tell you.

Page 10257

1 Q. In your statement to the OTP, and I will provide the statements

2 for you to look at, you said that in the room when you were in the

3 hospital you were together with Dodaj in the -- on the ground floor of the

4 hospital. Do you recall that?

5 A. That is the basement of the hospital.

6 Q. But you were together with Dodaj then?

7 A. Yes, Dodaj was there. They were coming to this room, and they

8 were moving around the hospital too.

9 Q. Thank you. You have just -- we have just heard about that, but

10 you didn't testify about that. Perhaps you testified about that in the

11 Dokmanovic case, but you didn't state that before this Trial Chamber.

12 Do you agree that on the 19th, in the afternoon, the transfer of

13 all civilians from the hospital was organised, and we know that this was

14 in the direction of Velepromet. Do you know anything about that, and did

15 you personally then decide to remain at the hospital?

16 A. That's correct. I know that there were evacuations of civilians,

17 all of them, and I decided at any cost to stay at the hospital, and I

18 stayed behind.

19 Q. And that was your decision entirely at that time, wasn't it?

20 A. Yes. My decision.

21 Q. You described yesterday how some people on the 19th, in the

22 evening, were taken out by local Serbs and reservists, or rather that

23 night. But in the statement to The Hague Tribunal, to the OTP, you said

24 something that I'm going to read to you now.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please provide a copy of the

Page 10258

1 statement for the witness so he can have that in front of him?

2 You have -- do you have the statement in front of you? Could you

3 please look at your statement, take the statement that you gave to the

4 OTP. This is page 3 of the B/C/S version; I think it's also page 3 of the

5 English, one paragraph but last. You are describing the events of

6 the 19th in the hospital, so you said the following. "It seems to me that

7 during the night I heard -- I think I saw members of some international

8 organisations inside the hospital."

9 Are you following me, can you see where we are?

10 A. No, I don't -- I haven't found the place yet.

11 Q. Just one moment. I have a redacted version. Let me just find it,

12 so we were just ... Yes, I obviously have here now, this is page 4,

13 page 4. This is the top paragraph. Actually, the second paragraph from

14 the top, I am reading line 2. It begins: "I heard from the hospital

15 staff."

16 Have you found that paragraph?

17 It's page 4: "I heard from the hospital staff that we all should

18 leave the hospital." Have you found that?

19 A. Yes, just a moment. Paragraph 2. I think it's not quite properly

20 translated.

21 Q. Yes, there are many things like that. But anyway, the second

22 sentence states: "I think that during the night I saw members of some

23 international organisation inside the hospital. I think I remember them

24 wearing white uniforms and some kind of blue marks on their sleeves, but

25 that is about all I remember."

Page 10259

1 Do you remember stating this to the OTP?

2 A. Yes, most probably that is what I said.

3 Q. You said that you just remember seeing them, but you don't recall

4 the details. I'm going to ask you, do you remember if they were recording

5 down some names, did they speak with anyone from the hospital?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Could we now put Exhibit 338 on the screen, please, which is a

8 photograph marked with 0036-6975. The other photograph. The other

9 photograph I marked in the set, 0036-6975. Thank you.

10 I will ask you whether the persons you remember seeing on the 19th

11 in the evening looked roughly like the people on these photographs in

12 terms of their clothing, that they had something white on their sleeves?

13 A. It seemed to me then that I saw them. But it only seemed to me,

14 so I wasn't sure 100 per cent. Perhaps it was more me wishing to see

15 them.

16 Q. All right. But if that's how it was, if there is a picture

17 vividly in your mind, did these people look similar to these in the

18 picture?

19 A. Something like that.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it's time for the

21 break. Or shall I continue?

22 JUDGE PARKER: [No audible response].

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

24 Q. Did you see Mrs. Vesna Bosanac while you were in the hospital for

25 a couple of days?

Page 10260

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you see her previously in the police station coming there

3 while you were there? Do you remember that?

4 A. I remember that. And I never saw her in the police station.

5 Q. So you saw her for the first time?

6 A. Only at the hospital.

7 Q. How did you know that was her?

8 A. I knew. We were told. I asked who this lady is, and we heard

9 that she was the director, Dr. Vesna Bosanac.

10 Q. Do you remember whether you spoke to her?

11 A. No, I don't think I spoke to her personally, no.

12 Q. Do you remember another detail? When I asked you about people who

13 were taken away on the 19th, did you hear that she said, or did somebody

14 convey that she said that all civilians were to leave the hospital on

15 the 19th? Did you hear anything of the sort?

16 A. I heard, yes, from the hospital staff, and there were a number of

17 them, that the civilians were all to leave the hospital on the 19th.

18 Q. All right. Another question having to do with the fact that you

19 spent most of your time in Vukovar at the police station. Did you hear

20 that 140 members of the Varazdin police station were engaged in Vukovar

21 during combat operations there?

22 A. I didn't know how many people and where they were from, but I knew

23 that there was something like that, that there were some policemen from

24 Varazdin, but I didn't know exactly how many.

25 Q. All right. Let us now turn to the events of the 20th of November.

Page 10261

1 I looked carefully at your evidence in the Dokmanovic case where you tried

2 to be very specific about your movements on that day in terms of the

3 time-line. On page 644 of the Dokmanovic transcript you said that you

4 went into the hallway between -- between 8.00. Yesterday you said between

5 6.00 and 8.00, which is not entirely relevant, but at around that time.

6 Do you agree?

7 A. Yes. We came out at around 8.00 and left the hospital perhaps at

8 9.00 or 9.30, and this is when we left.

9 Q. All right. On page 648 of the Dokmanovic transcript you said that

10 you travelled from the hospital to the barracks about half an hour, and

11 that you reached the barracks, in your view, at around 11.00. Is it

12 possible that it was then that you reached the barracks?

13 A. I can't tell you how long we travelled for. All I know is that we

14 left the hospital, we came to the Vukovar barracks, and stopped there.

15 Now, as for the time --

16 Q. Mr. Zlogledja, I'm reading to you your evidence in the Dokmanovic

17 trial, where you testified under oath. You will agree with me that back

18 in 1998 your memory was better than today, 14 years after the events, so

19 that's why I'm asking you whether it was possible.

20 A. I most likely stated this, so it's possible.

21 Q. Then yesterday you said, as you did on page 649 in the Dokmanovic

22 transcript, that you spent about two hours in the barracks. Is that

23 possible?

24 A. Yes, it's possible.

25 Q. Then on page 651 you said that travelling from the barracks to the

Page 10262

1 field where the Ovcara hangar is located, you travelled for -- or rather,

2 that that trip took about 20 minutes. Is that possible?

3 A. Yes, that's possible.

4 Q. There are some discrepancies and I'm trying to clarify that.

5 Yesterday you said that you spent a total of half an hour at Ovcara.

6 That's what you said yesterday on page 70.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In your statement given to the OTP, on page 5, you say -- I'm

9 trying to find the page now.

10 On page 6 of the B/C/S version. First sentence, last

11 paragraph. "We spent about 40 minutes with that officer."

12 That's the statement you gave to the OTP. Today you told us that

13 you spoke to him for some 10 minutes, and in the statement it says that

14 you spent 40 minutes with him. Do you remember stating that?

15 A. I guess that that's how it was translated and recorded.

16 Q. Is it possible that you talked for 40 minutes with him?

17 A. For 40 minutes, what could we have possibly discussed for 40

18 minutes?

19 Q. Is it possible that he stood next to you for 40 minutes?

20 A. As soon as we got off the bus they were waiting for us there, and

21 the first question was, are you all soldiers, which military post, where

22 from, who was your commanding officer. That was the conversation, brief

23 questions. And then he left. And then in that interval, I guess they

24 called the units and established that we had, indeed, been soldiers

25 there. But then when they saw what our ethnic affiliation was, then they

Page 10263

1 realised that we were not imprisoned.

2 Q. Yes, yes, you told us about that. But you still continued to

3 claim that you talked to that officer for some 10 minutes, that that was a

4 dialogue, or rather a monologue, and that it didn't take 40 minutes, as

5 you stated earlier to the Prosecution?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is the good

8 time for a break.

9 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at 20 minutes to 1.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Zlogledja, I have to go back to inconsistencies in your

15 statement. It is your claim that you stayed about half an hour at Ovcara;

16 that's what you told us yesterday and today. You also said that you

17 talked to that officer for how long?

18 A. You keep insisting that I say exactly how long. It's impossible

19 to say five minutes, three minutes, two minutes, in view of the

20 circumstances and the course of events. It's impossible for me to specify

21 it accurately. I told you roughly five to 10 minutes worth of

22 conversation.

23 Q. And you said today that you thought that with that officer and

24 that vehicle you left for Negoslavci?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10264

1 Q. And in the statement given to the OTP for which you said that it

2 was probably mistranslated, it says that you spent 40 minutes talking to

3 him, and you signed it back in 1996; is that right?

4 A. Yes, that's possible.

5 Q. You testified in the Dokmanovic case also under oath, just like

6 here, on page 656, line 4, the question was as follows, it pertains to the

7 conversation with the officer at Ovcara: "[In English] How long did the

8 conversation with the JNA officer last?"

9 [B/C/S spoken]. "[In English] This was up to maybe one hour,

10 perhaps."

11 [Interpretation] I don't think that this was an interpretation

12 error, because this reflects your words as they were translated live. So

13 in 1998 you said that it was up to one hour, and today we heard it was a

14 couple of minutes. Let's see what's true.

15 A. The truth is that we were there. Not just the conversation, but

16 the entire time that we spent there was perhaps half an hour, perhaps an

17 hour. It's hard to say exactly how long it was. But the total amount of

18 time we spent at Ovcara was that.

19 Q. All right. So you think that you spent a total of one hour at

20 Ovcara. Let me ask you this. Can you say --

21 JUDGE PARKER: That wasn't a fair summary. He doesn't know, he

22 says. Maybe up to an hour.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 Q. Witness, I don't want to insist on something you can't remember

25 after all these years. I'm just putting inconsistencies to you in the

Page 10265

1 answers you provided then and today. If you do not remember something or

2 can't answer a question, just please say so. Let me ask you something

3 else about the time-line of events. From the moment you came to Ovcara,

4 do you remember in which bus you were?

5 A. I told you already, it was either the penultimate or the ultimate

6 bus.

7 Q. How much time elapsed from the moment you reached Ovcara until you

8 got to this colonel? So how long did it take for your bus to disembark,

9 for you to come out and so on?

10 A. Once again, let me round it to half an hour.

11 Q. All right. Another question that's very important to me. If you

12 spent up to one hour in total at Ovcara, when did the people stop entering

13 the hangar, or rather how much longer did you stay with that colonel there

14 before they stopped beating people in the gauntlet? If you were in the

15 penultimate bus, that means that there was one bus behind you. Is that

16 right? So how long did that take for people from one bus to go through

17 the gauntlet?

18 A. Some 15 minutes, definitely. Approximately.

19 Q. Thank you. Let us now go back to the events at the hospital and

20 then we'll follow the chronology from there on. I will show you a brief

21 video sequence here, Exhibit 118, you will see it on the screen, and then

22 I'll ask for you to comment.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's fine. We don't need to go

25 further than this.

Page 10266

1 Q. Tell me, who did you recognise in this footage?

2 A. One can easily recognise Captain Sljivancanin in this footage.

3 Q. We know, and we could see on this tape that it was filmed on the

4 20th of November in the morning when the evacuation was conducted. Since

5 we know that this video was frequently shown in various documentaries,

6 both on Croatian and Belgrade television, I'll ask you this: Do you know

7 where this dialogue took place, the one shown in this video?

8 A. I have no idea.

9 Q. Did you hear of the conflict between Sljivancanin and the

10 representatives of the International Red Cross?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you over the years ever watch any TV programmes about Vukovar

13 events, ever?

14 A. Whenever I came upon such topic, I would switch to another

15 channel. I didn't feel like watching, and I never watched a documentary

16 that was wholly about Vukovar and what was happening there.

17 Q. Did you ever see photographs of Major Sljivancanin in press

18 articles after you were released?

19 A. No.

20 Q. All right. On the 20th in the morning you left the hospital

21 together with a group of your mates, Dodaj, Kuscevic and so on, and then

22 you were frisked from that corridor, which was the side -- near the side

23 entrance to the hospital. On page 644 of the Dokmanovic transcript, you

24 said that they looked for sharp and solid objects, that you were frisked

25 for that.

Page 10267

1 A. I know that we were frisked and checked, yes. Now, whether they

2 were looking for that, I don't know. The soldiers searched us.

3 Q. Did they take any money that you might have had, or did they just

4 search you?

5 A. They didn't take anything from me, they just searched me.

6 Q. While you stood there in that line, you saw my client?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. He went in and out of the hospital, you testified about that

9 yesterday and today, and also in the Dokmanovic trial. He didn't talk to

10 you then, right?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. That's what you said to The Hague Office of the Prosecutor. So he

13 never addressed you while you stood there; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You stood in a line one next to each other; that's how I

16 understood it?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Do you remember whether in that line you were towards the end

19 nearer the hospital door, or nearer the yard?

20 A. I wasn't nearer the entrance into the compound, no. I was closer

21 to the entrance into the hospital.

22 Q. And you said to my colleague Borovic that there were other

23 officers there. Did you see them or there were none there?

24 A. I didn't see them.

25 Q. Why did you use the plural then? You said you did not see the

Page 10268

1 officers who were at the hospital earlier at the barracks. My learned

2 friend, Mr. Borovic, has already confronted you with that, and I do

3 realise that there were more such officers at the hospital whom you did

4 not see at the barracks later. That's your evidence, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So we do agree that you did see a number of different officers at

7 the hospital, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You described Sljivancanin going in and out of the hospital

10 building, just appearing there. How many times did you see him?

11 A. Several times. He went in and out of the building.

12 Q. Very well. Several times. How long would he stay within your

13 line of sight? 15 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes?

14 A. Between five and 15, depending.

15 Q. Do you remember Dodaj Hajdar standing anywhere near you in that

16 line?

17 A. I can't say exactly if he was next to me or not. I don't remember

18 his exact position.

19 Q. But you were on the same bus, right, because you had left

20 together, right?

21 A. Yes, we were on the same bus. That much is certain.

22 Q. My question is about that. How did you board the buses? Did you

23 just fill up the seats, or could you choose which bus you boarded?

24 A. No, one by one, starting with the first bus and then all the way

25 to the last bus.

Page 10269

1 Q. As you were standing in that line in the hospital corridor before

2 you headed for the buses, did you at this time see any international

3 presence in the corridor?

4 A. No.

5 Q. This was on page 5658 on the 7th of March this year; that's for

6 the benefit of the Trial Chamber. That was the evidence.

7 So you didn't see anyone?

8 A. No, I didn't see anyone. Not from the time I left the hospital to

9 the time I arrived at Ovcara.

10 Q. Do you remember - if not, please feel free to say so - were you on

11 the left-hand side of the bus or on the right-hand side of the bus and did

12 you have a window seat?

13 A. I was on the right-hand side.

14 Q. You said there were between four and five buses there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Yours was second to last, most probably. Were there any other

17 vehicles in that column on its way to the barracks? Do you remember that?

18 A. Only the buses, as far as I could tell.

19 Q. Now about the time-line. You have been asked about this. My

20 conclusion is you spent around two hours at the barracks, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You clearly said that you did not see my client at the barracks,

23 did you?

24 A. That's right, I didn't.

25 Q. We've heard a lot of evidence here about those buses inside the

Page 10270

1 barracks being parked in a semi-circle on some sort of an elevation?

2 A. Yes, they were all parked within the barracks compound.

3 Q. You confirmed what you said yesterday in answer to one of

4 Mr. Domazet's questions, only one person was taken off your bus, a young

5 man from Zagreb. Do you remember at Ovcara being -- questions being asked

6 about some Albanians, but you only remember one person being taken off the

7 bus inside the barracks compound at the time, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are you sure about that?

10 A. He was sitting just in front of me, and I know this for a fact.

11 Yes, he was taken off the bus.

12 Q. We have heard a lot of evidence about what went on in the

13 barracks, and all of those witnesses who were with you on those buses

14 claim that there was a list, that names were called out, that people were

15 taken off, and that these people would then be beaten on the way from one

16 bus to another. Is this possible, that there was a list, and that names

17 were called out, but you didn't see it?

18 A. It might be possible. In this specific case, this soldier came up

19 to the window because the young lad was seated next to the window, and

20 said, "That's him. He fired at me." And that's why he was taken off.

21 I'm not sure if anybody else was taken off based on a list.

22 Q. You're saying only he was?

23 A. From my bus only he was taken off.

24 Q. Dodaj was with you on the bus and Kuscevic was on the bus in front

25 of you, right?

Page 10271

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. There was a witness who was with you on your bus. This is

3 page 5532, the date is the 6th of March. I'm not mentioning his name. He

4 says that about 10 persons were taken off your bus. Does that strike you

5 as possible?

6 A. My bus? No. I don't think as many.

7 Q. Just that one young man, right?

8 A. Yes, I'm positive about that one.

9 Q. I'll remind of something on page 649 -- I can't switch my mic off.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not understand the latter

11 part of counsel's remark.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. I will now quote from the Dokmanovic case. The page reference

14 is 649. This is the 3rd of February, 1998. Question by the OTP: "[In

15 English] How many with regard to your own bus?"

16 [B/C/S spoken] "From my bus they took out about four men. Four,

17 five men. Five, perhaps."

18 "Q. Do you know their names?

19 "A. I do not know. I think three or four were local people from

20 Vukovar, and there were a boy from Zagreb."

21 1998. You sound quite determined. You saw four to five people

22 being taken off your bus. Do you remember saying that at the time?

23 A. I think I did say that, yes.

24 Q. So you weren't telling the truth, yesterday or today, or back

25 then? Which is it?

Page 10272

1 A. What I'm saying all time is I'm sure about that one, and then

2 there were soldiers entering the bus there in front and they may have

3 taken several people off the bus there. Perhaps not 10. I'm only

4 positive about this one who was right in front of me.

5 Q. Mr. Zlogledja, I'm just telling you what you said yesterday. You

6 said one person. Back in 1998 you seemed quite determined. This is an

7 unequivocal reference to several people from Vukovar being taken off.

8 A question about your observation at the barracks. You say you

9 were told to keep your heads down?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could it be the case that you just couldn't see something because

12 your heads were down most of the time? How would that strike you by way

13 of an inference?

14 A. That may have been the case. I wasn't really in a position to

15 keep looking at things all the time.

16 Q. Let's move on to Ovcara now. You say you left the bus and

17 standing next to this, well practically -- well, let me call him JNA

18 officer, there were Kuscevic and Hrkic standing right next to him, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In the Dokmanovic case you described their -- this man's physical

21 appearance and his rank. You said colonel at the time on page 654, didn't

22 you? You described how he questioned you. But the way you testified, and

23 that's why I'm asking, is my conclusion, okay, you say you saw my client

24 then, Sljivancanin. Approaching those people in the gauntlet. My

25 conclusion is the timing when you, as you say, see Sljivancanin, that was

Page 10273

1 in the next 15 minutes before even the last one got into the hangar,

2 right? And the gauntlet was no more. Is my conclusion right? Or if no,

3 please say. What is it? In relation to this period, you're standing

4 there with that colonel, that period of time you were there, when is it

5 that you see Sljivancanin?

6 A. No, he didn't come at that time when we were there talking. It

7 wasn't until later on when people had already been taken off the buses and

8 taken inside the hangar. This group of people were standing outside the

9 hangar, those who were beating the people inside, going in and out all the

10 time. It wasn't until later that I saw this captain --

11 Q. He was a major; that has not been challenged.

12 A. Yes, a major. He talked to those people, and he soon went back.

13 Q. But, Mr. Zlogledja, you testified yesterday that you saw him

14 approach those people and talked to them as they were still in the

15 gauntlet beating people. You expected at the time that they would stop

16 the beatings; that's what you said. In the Dokmanovic case, let me jog

17 your memory, sir.

18 That may be in your statement after all, not in the Dokmanovic

19 case. You say that he approached those people who were in the gauntlet

20 beating the people who were running the gauntlet.

21 Let me go back to your statement. It's your statement to the OTP,

22 page 6. "I saw him approach" -- I'm talking about halfway down the page,

23 third passage. "I saw him approach those two lines of soldiers beating

24 the people and I saw him talk to them. He then walked right back to where

25 he came from. He didn't speak to me or anybody else."

Page 10274

1 Based on what you said yesterday, I conclude that you saw

2 Sljivancanin approach those people while those people in the gauntlet, let

3 me say, were near the bus, so how much time would you say elapsed?

4 A. No, no, no. They were all out of the buses and it was only then

5 that he came.

6 Q. I think there are discrepancies in your testimony, but that's no

7 matter right now. Please tell me this. You were standing -- if you stood

8 there outside the hangar, please tell me now how long before you left for

9 Negoslavci?

10 A. About a half hour.

11 Q. So there is this half-hour period of time. Regardless of which

12 point in time precisely, you see my client, right?

13 A. Yes, at one point in time I catch sight of him. That is beyond

14 doubt.

15 Q. Fine, let's press on. On page 71 of yesterday's transcript, the

16 draft, you said that Sljivancanin was being accompanied by a driver and

17 that they had arrived there in a Pinzgauer. Do you remember that?

18 A. Yes, that military vehicle.

19 Q. And the driver too?

20 A. Yes, the driver was the one who brought him there.

21 Q. In your statement to the OTP on page 6, you say he was being

22 escorted by other soldiers. This is a plural reference. So was there

23 just a lone driver, or was there a whole group of soldiers tagging along,

24 a group of soldiers.

25 A. Yes.

Page 10275

1 Q. Just one?

2 A. Yes.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, the case for both the

4 singular and the plural for this particular noun is the same in B/C/S.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Fine. Let's see what you said about this in the Dokmanovic case,

7 because there is a different reference there.

8 I see that there is an observation on the transcript. It's

9 because of our language. There is a certain degree of ambiguity in our

10 language. I will now quote the English reference in the OTP's

11 translation, so that we are clear about what I am asking the question

12 about.

13 In your statement you referred to a number of soldiers, not just

14 one. The English reference is 0040-0272. In English you said and signed

15 the statement: "[Previous translation continues] ... [In English] was

16 accompanied by other soldiers." [Interpretation] But fine.

17 Same question, the same question was asked by the Trial Chamber in

18 the Dokmanovic case, or rather the OTP. Page 655. This is the question

19 by the OTP about Ovcara. "[Previous translation continues] ... [In

20 English] that you saw Sljivancanin in the hospital area. Did you see

21 Sljivancanin again now?

22 "A. Yes.

23 "Q. In this location?

24 "A. Yes. I believe so. I think he passed by us.

25 "Q. Was he alone or with others?

Page 10276

1 "A. No, he was not alone. He was with another two or three

2 officers."

3 [Interpretation] Mr. Zlogledja, well, now, we had the driver

4 yesterday in your OTP statement, several soldiers in the Dokmanovic case,

5 a number of officers. Which is true?

6 A. There were certainly no officers around.

7 Q. But you testified so under oath.

8 A. I'm not sure how that was interpreted at the time, but it wasn't

9 the case that he arrived with a number of other officers. He arrived on

10 his own in that military vehicle. He wasn't the one driving. It was his

11 driver, needless to say.

12 Q. Mr. Zlogledja, I must ask you this: You must have been advised by

13 the victims and witnesses protection unit about the importance of an oath?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. There is a transcript here, your words are recorded. In the

16 Dokmanovic case you went on the record as saying that my client was there

17 with two or three or officers, whereas now you claim not to have said this

18 under oath.

19 A. I'm saying that those officers were at Ovcara too. Not just

20 Sljivancanin alone.

21 Q. All right. Let's press on. We shall leave this for future

22 analysis. I am just confronting you with your own testimony from earlier

23 on.

24 Mr. Zlogledja, there are several other things that I need to ask

25 you about. We have heard a great number of witnesses before this Chamber.

Page 10277

1 They also arrived at Ovcara on buses. Victims and witnesses, should I

2 say. Not one of them ever claimed they had seen Sljivancanin at Ovcara,

3 not even when being prompted explicitly by Veselin Sljivancanin's Defence

4 team. I'll ask you a question about that, but probably after the OTP's

5 objection.

6 MR. SMITH: Despite the fact I'm not sure whether this method of

7 putting -- pitching this witness against other witnesses is appropriate,

8 one witness has testified that Sljivancanin was at Ovcara. So it's

9 just -- it's a misstatement in the question.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No. I asked the question from the

11 side of the witnesses who were all on buses. All the witnesses who were

12 on those buses, victims, clearly said that they had not seen Sljivancanin

13 there, all these witnesses who were also victims, but fine.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Well, that's even trickier, Mr. Lukic. Because you

15 are being very particular in framing your question but creating an

16 impression to the witness that that's true of everybody.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Precision is precisely what I was

18 after. Nevertheless, I'll try this.

19 Q. It is indisputable that different witnesses turned up at Ovcara at

20 different times. Let me ask you this: Mr. Zlogledja, Dodaj Hajdar left

21 the bus with you, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. He was standing there with you throughout prior to your departure

24 for Negoslavci, right?

25 A. Yes, most of the time.

Page 10278

1 Q. Petar Kuscevic as well, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Standing with you all the time prior to your departure for

4 Negoslavci. Had even arrived before you did outside the hangar, I mean,

5 right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you ever see anyone keeping Dodaj Hajdar from watching what

8 was going on?

9 A. No, no one stood in anybody else's way.

10 Q. Fine. You spent a great deal of time with him in prison. Did you

11 ever tell Dodaj that you had seen Sljivancanin at Ovcara?

12 A. We didn't talk while in prison. We were not there together. We

13 were separated in Belgrade.

14 Q. Which means you never shared this particular observation with him,

15 right?

16 A. No, I never did.

17 Q. And Petar Kuscevic was there with you all the time, right,

18 standing?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was anyone keeping Kuscevic from looking on?

21 A. No, probably not.

22 Q. What about Dodaj or Kuscevic, do you know of any reason that they

23 may have had to conceal these facts when giving a statement to the OTP or

24 when testifying? Do you know of anything like that?

25 A. I don't know what they saw. I don't know what they witnessed. I

Page 10279

1 don't know what they testified. I can only speak for myself. I know what

2 I saw. I know what I witnessed. I know what I said. I can't speak on

3 anyone else's behalf.

4 Q. Previously I asked you about the time-line in a bid to be a little

5 more specific; 11.00, the barracks, the journey, Ovcara, two hours at the

6 barracks, half an hour before the gauntlet, off the bus, and then another

7 half an hour, roughly speaking, being there. We're looking for a

8 reference point here, for a frame of reference. When did you arrive at

9 Ovcara? Could we say at about 2.00?

10 A. It was earlier, as far as I could tell. It might sooner have been

11 between 12.00 and 1.00 rather than at 2.00.

12 Q. I'm asking you because you said you arrived at the barracks at

13 about 11.00, you were there for two hours, and it would have taken you

14 about half an hour to reach Ovcara. That's what you said, that's why I'm

15 asking. So it might have been 2.00, right?

16 A. I don't think it was 2.00. But that's just my take on it.

17 Q. So you spent half an hour on the bus, and another half hour there

18 when you say my client emerged, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You know we heard testimony before this Trial Chamber of witnesses

21 who, at the time, when you claim, and this is testimony on page 2.942 of

22 the 6th of December, and 2.798 of the 2nd of December, of witnesses who at

23 that time saw Sljivancanin at the hospital and even talked with him.

24 A. I don't know that. All I know is what I saw and what I

25 experienced. As for others, I cannot speak on their behalf.

Page 10280

1 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, I read this earlier to you. When

2 your memory was fresher in 1998 in the Dokmanovic case, were you not so

3 exclusive. You said, I believe I saw him, I think he passed by. Why were

4 you using those words then?

5 A. I don't recall which words I used, but I know beyond dispute that

6 I did see him. I know that he was in charge of the evacuation of the

7 hospital and of the wounded, and I had reasons to pay attention to him the

8 most.

9 Q. You knew before the evacuation began, and you had information and

10 that day when you saw him at the hospital, that he was in charge of the

11 evacuation?

12 A. Yes, that's how we -- what we heard, that he was in charge of the

13 evacuation.

14 Q. You also claim that you had the opportunity to see him on

15 television, at the police station, or I don't know where, before you

16 actually saw him?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you described to the Prosecutor how you saw that on

19 television. If I were to tell you that witnesses who were with you at the

20 police station claim that they saw Sljivancanin on television for the

21 first time only when they came back from captivity, what would you say

22 about that?

23 A. I don't know about those other witnesses. I know what I saw.

24 Q. Tell me, when was the last time you watched television at the

25 police station, if you left on the 17th? Can you tell me that?

Page 10281

1 A. We watched for a while, for quite a while. Until the very end,

2 almost.

3 Q. I claim, and I'm going to, as I say, prove that here, because we

4 do have the video footage of that, that the face of my client and

5 especially his name, his first and last name, was not known to the

6 television viewers before November 20th, actually his name was misstated,

7 his last name, what would you say to that, am I wrong?

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer of the

9 witness.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. I said the 19th, I'm correcting the transcript, page 83, line 18.

12 I apologise again to the interpreters. This is my problem. I

13 said the 18th of November when we're -- we had the negotiations of the

14 Mitnica group. That is when my client was seen in conversation with

15 representatives of the European Community.

16 Just one moment, please.

17 [Defence counsel confer]

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. The footage that we saw earlier here, and that's the footage that

20 the Prosecutor showed you before, this is footage of the 20th of November,

21 and there is no dispute about that. In that footage Sljivancanin is in

22 camouflage uniform and wearing a camouflage cap, exactly the way you

23 described him; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After you left, let's say you were released from detention, you

Page 10282

1 did not see him anymore in any newspapers or on any footage?

2 A. No.

3 Q. The first time you saw him was when the Prosecution showed you his

4 photographs?

5 A. Not the Prosecution, but when I was speaking with the

6 investigator.

7 Q. The investigator. That was the first time you saw photographs of

8 him; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I assert, Mr. Zlogledja, that you don't remember faces all that

11 well, because I see from your testimony when you are describing this other

12 officer whom you spoke with briefly at Ovcara and with whom you went to

13 Negoslavci later and with whom you spent more time than the time you spent

14 with my client, first of all you said in the OTP statement that he was a

15 general, later you said that he was a colonel, then you recognised the

16 photograph of General Zivota Panic. Yesterday you did not recognise

17 Zivota Panic on the video footage. Is that correct?

18 A. At that point in time I was not counting and I was not paying

19 attention to ranks. I know that it was a higher rank, but I wasn't really

20 up to noticing the ranks at that point in time.

21 Q. Mr. Zlogledja, I am just telling you what you said, what you

22 stated, and what you looked at. I assume that you said or described what

23 you saw or what you were watching. You said to The Hague Prosecution in a

24 statement that you were shown photographs, you were shown a photograph of

25 a man with the insignia of a general?

Page 10283

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you recognised at that time the photograph of General Panic,

3 this was in 1996; is that correct?

4 A. He seemed familiar, but I didn't say 100 per cent that that was

5 him.

6 Q. I must say that you were quite specific. Just one second, please.

7 "In the blue file the investigator showed me several photographs.

8 In file number 2 in two photographs there is an officer about whom I

9 believe is the commander whom I described first."

10 So then you indicated that General Zivota Panic, although you just

11 said Panic, but we know on the basis of the photographs that it's General

12 Zivota Panic as the general with whom you talked. And with whom you spent

13 a considerable amount of time, and with whom you said you went to

14 Negoslavci in a vehicle.

15 When you were shown Zivota Panic yesterday, you didn't recognise

16 him. That is why I assert, and you can agree with me, that you do not

17 recognise faces that you saw many years ago, because so much time has

18 passed since then. Is that correct?

19 A. I recognise the people that I am sure about. If I am not sure

20 about it, I would say I think or it's possible, but I also say I'm not

21 sure.

22 Q. You said in the Dokmanovic case that you think that it was

23 Sljivancanin?

24 A. I perhaps said that I think, but I'm sure.

25 Q. Very well.

Page 10284

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we move into private session for

2 a moment, please?

3 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10285

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I am going to ask a couple of questions arising from the

5 examination-in-chief today by my learned friend Mr. Smith relating to

6 Negoslavci.

7 In this official note from 1994, about which you say that some

8 parts are not well interpreted, I'm going to read a passage and then you

9 can tell us whether this has been recorded faithfully, your testimony.

10 This is on page 3.

11 The statement by Zlogledja Zlatko indicates that they stayed alive

12 in Negoslavci exclusively because they were guarded by military police of

13 the regular army who were preventing civilians entering the basement from

14 killing them."

15 The same said that they would not permit that because they were in

16 charge of them. All the five days spent in the basement at Negoslavci

17 they were beaten and abused.

18 Is this a faithful reflection of what you said to the inspector in

19 relation to this matter?

20 A. That is the truth. It's just that I don't remember saying

21 expressly. But they did protect us at that point in time and they did not

22 allow those -- civilians who were coming in to beat us to take us outside

23 [as interpreted].

24 Q. Thank you. And now the last question, when you were taken away to

25 Topcider after five days, to Belgrade, did all the people in the basement

Page 10286

1 room leave with you or did some people stay behind?

2 A. Some -- the four of us went. Some people stayed behind in that

3 room.

4 Q. All right.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I have

6 completed my cross-examination. And I am still unable to turn my

7 microphone off.

8 JUDGE PARKER: We'll get you lessons, Mr. Lukic.

9 Yes, Mr. Smith.

10 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. Just a few quick questions in

11 re-examination. I apologise for my lateness earlier. I thought with this

12 new very efficient schedule that we'd be going all day, but -- I thought

13 it was a lunch break, so I apologise for that.

14 Re-examination by Mr. Smith:

15 Q. Witness, I would like to ask you a couple of questions on a few

16 matters that have been raised during cross-examination. And I suppose the

17 first question I would like to ask you is whether or not on the 20th of

18 November when you are at the Vukovar Hospital, when you're at the

19 barracks, when you were at Ovcara, did you have a watch?

20 A. Did I have a watch? No.

21 Q. Did you have any access to clocks that would tell you the exact

22 time that you were at the different places?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When you were at the Vukovar barracks, you said that you were very

25 scared as to what was going to happen to you and to others. When you were

Page 10287

1 at Ovcara, how were you feeling at the time?

2 A. We felt the same. We were frightened, worried about our lives.

3 Q. How did you -- did that affect your ability on how you could tell

4 the time or time periods or not?

5 A. Of course it did. In relation to time, of course.

6 Q. A question about what was asked of you when you testified in the

7 Dokmanovic case. And it was put to you by one of my learned friends that

8 at the Dokmanovic case you didn't testify in relation to what happened to

9 the men as they were placed in the hangar at Ovcara, nor as to any people

10 being taken out of that hangar, and I would just like to read out your

11 testimony from the Dokmanovic case in 1998. And can you tell me whether

12 or not you agree with this.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor please tell us

14 which of our colleagues asked the question in that way? I don't think

15 that any of the colleagues said that he did not testify in the Dokmanovic

16 case about the hangar. All that was discussed was the police station at

17 Negoslavci. But what my learned friend, Mr. Smith, is asserting was not

18 mentioned at any point.

19 MR. SMITH: Thank you. And it wasn't mentioned by Mr. Lukic, but

20 by Mr. Domazet, that this witness didn't give any witness about what

21 occurred inside the hangar.

22 Q. Perhaps if I just read the testimony from the Dokmanovic case at

23 page 656, and I would like to put the question to you. "During this

24 period of waiting, were you able to hear what happened to the persons you

25 mentioned being inside the hangar?"

Page 10288

1 And you responded: "Yes, because there was another bus behind us.

2 They all went through that same procedure, so to speak. They would be

3 beaten as they came off the bus and then they would enter the hangars, and

4 in the hangars they were beaten additionally.

5 "As of these beatings did you see these beatings or did you hear

6 the beatings?

7 "Yes, we saw it, and we could also hear the moans and screams."

8 Do you agree that you testified to that in the Dokmanovic case? I

9 just read from your transcript.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And perhaps if we can just go to Ovcara again, you stated in your

12 examination-in-chief that Captain Sljivancanin arrived at Ovcara in a

13 Pinzgauer vehicle with a driver; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. After -- after Captain Sljivancanin got out of that vehicle, do

16 you know what happened to the driver? Do you know whether he stayed in

17 the car or got out with him?

18 A. The driver came out.

19 Q. And when -- and when Captain Sljivancanin approached the men

20 outside -- the soldiers outside of the hangar, was the driver with him?

21 Who else was with him?

22 A. No, the driver wasn't there. The driver got out and he was

23 walking around the truck. He got -- or he approached the soldiers and

24 spoke with them by himself.

25 Q. Thank you. And you talked about the time that an investigator

Page 10289

1 from the OTP took a statement from you in 1996, and it was mentioned that

2 you picked out Sljivancanin from photographs that were shown to you. Do

3 you remember stating that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When the investigator showed you these photographs did, in fact --

6 were the photographs all of Sljivancanin, or did they include other people

7 as well?

8 A. No, all the other people were around.

9 Q. When you say "other people were around," were there other people

10 in that same photograph, or were other photographs shown to you, in

11 addition to Sljivancanin, of other people?

12 A. Yes, other than his, of other people too.

13 Q. Thank you. And I've finished my questions with you,

14 Mr. Zlogledja.

15 MR. SMITH: But just one brief matter for the record, Your Honour.

16 In relation to a question that was put by Mr. Lukic to the witness, and I

17 think it may have been just a mistake on his part, of course. The witness

18 at page 5532 that was on the bus with this witness, he stated that five or

19 six people descended from the bus, but 10 people were read from the list,

20 and I think that that was the confusion there. But it's in the

21 transcript, just to clarify that. I get a nodding of the head, so I think

22 we are in agreement on that one.

23 Your Honour, I have no further questions.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Smith. Can you tell me, what is the

25 position tomorrow?

Page 10290

1 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I believe that there is no witness

2 tomorrow on the basis that the testimony this week was going to proceed

3 longer, but on your instructions obviously we have tried to be as brief as

4 we can. And Mr. Grujic unfortunately cannot come until Monday; he's

5 travelling on Sunday.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

7 You will be pleased to know that that is the end of the questions

8 in this case. You may now of course leave and go back to your home. The

9 Chamber would thank you for coming here and for the assistance that you

10 have been able to give.

11 We will now adjourn, and we resume on Monday at 12.30.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of June,

14 2006, at 12.30 p.m.