Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12587

1 Monday, 9 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. I'm glad to see that you are with

6 us again, Mr. Mrksic.

7 Mr. Borovic, we are ready to continue with your case; is that

8 correct?

9 Mr. Lukic?

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Knowing what awaits us, that is

11 Mr. Radic's testimony and we finally have Mr. Weiner with us in the

12 courtroom, one thing I wanted to do before the start of Mr. Radic's

13 testimony today was to discuss the proposal to have MFI 576 introduced.

14 That is the one topic pending which requires Mr. Weiner's presence in the

15 courtroom. So I thought it might be a good idea to discuss that first.

16 My proposal is for Goran Hadzic's interview marked as MFI 576 be --

17 JUDGE PARKER: Just a minute, Mr. Lukic, you're moving on.

18 Mr. Borovic, does it trouble you if you are delayed a couple of

19 minutes?

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] No, not at all, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I thank my learned friend Mr. Borovic.

23 I stand by my previous motion for the television interview given

24 by Goran Hadzic, MFI 576, be admitted into evidence as well as the

25 transcripts of that phone interview, marked as 3D00021, that's the

Page 12588

1 television interview. The B/C/S transcript is 3D000214, and the English

2 is marked as 3D000215. I would like to see whether anyone would still

3 like to challenge that document before it is admitted into evidence, and I

4 would like to add something to my motion.

5 Last Friday I received a filing from the OTP regarding the

6 possibility to admit certain Mrksic exhibits into evidence, that is dated

7 the 6th of October. The text invoked by the OTP in paragraph 5 of that

8 motion, and that is the reference to the Delalic ruling, I accept that and

9 that is precisely why I believe that the relevance of this exhibit is now

10 crystal clear. And I think there are no obstacles to having the MFI

11 material admitted. I would, however, like to give Mr. Weiner a chance to

12 comment on this.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 Anything from Mr. Domazet or Mr. Borovic?

15 If not, Mr. Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: Good afternoon, Your Honour.

17 Your Honour, this is the second time that an attempt has been made

18 to introduce this document through witnesses. The first time that the

19 attempt was made was through Witness 002, which the Court will find on

20 pages 10.636 through 10.638, and you can see the remarks of the Court in

21 refusing to allow its admission. In that situation, that witness was

22 asked about this interview. He had never seen it previously. He wasn't

23 present for the interview. He wasn't able to discuss it and it didn't

24 come in because -- due to an objection.

25 Now, again, it was attempted to be introduced through a Defence

Page 12589

1 witness called Dusan Jaksic, and the Court will notice it's on pages

2 11.962 through 11.964. Again, if we look at that we are in the exact same

3 situation. Mr. Jaksic had never witnessed this interview, he had never

4 seen it until he sat in this courtroom and it was played for him. He had

5 no information about the contents of this interview. So there is no

6 difference between the first situation, when it was refused admissibility,

7 and this current situation.

8 Now, as the Court knows videos in the past have been admissible

9 before this Court; however, usually we have two types of videos, one are

10 those depicting activity, depicting shelling, depicting a battle

11 occurring, depicting a situation right after a battle so one can see the

12 damage or can see what is happening during the battle. Or we've had

13 interviews where persons are -- I'm sorry videos where persons are

14 interviewed, where statements. And in both cases, whether it's the latter

15 with interviews of a person or where it's observations of various

16 activity, we have a witness who can describe it, who can tell you about

17 it. Here we don't have that situation. We have an attempt by the Defence

18 to introduce a statement, not through Rule 92 bis but however they want to

19 introduce it through a video. They do not have the witness, they do not

20 have so far any witness who can comment upon that. It's an attempt to

21 introduce a statement of an alleged war criminal who is a fugitive. It's

22 self-serving and it's not reliable. We would ask that it not be admitted

23 at this time until they have a witness who can come here and tell us about

24 this video, who can provide any reliability to it because at this time,

25 there is no basis for reliability. I ask that their motion be dismissed.

Page 12590

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Weiner.

2 Mr. Lukic, is there anything in reply?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There has to be, Your Honour.

4 Mr. Weiner's argument to the effect that this is a war criminal is

5 something that the OTP knew when they placed this document in their 65 ter

6 list and marked it as 336. It appears to clash with the present argument,

7 but there is something else, too. There is an analogy in jurisprudence

8 and there is one thing I would like to say. What I said the first time

9 around when we talked about this interview and admitting it into evidence

10 with P002, this was something that was tendered by the OTP in the

11 Dokmanovic case when Mr. Goran Hadzic testified on the 25th of March,

12 1998. The transcript page is 3105 and that was in public session.

13 I thought the OTP would be challenging this document with regard

14 to the allegations in their motion, whether this sort of video footage is

15 appropriate to be admitted into evidence at all. I thought it was the

16 authenticity of the document that they were challenging. The first time

17 around this was shown, not even the Trial Chamber had the transcript of

18 this interview and now you are familiar with the transcript and the

19 substance of that interview. There is one thing I'd like to say in

20 argument, which I believe is sufficiently clear and which will support the

21 admission of this exhibit into evidence regardless of whether there is a

22 witness to corroborate this.

23 We have the same sort of document in terms of date and substance

24 by Mr. Borsinger to TV Belgrade on the 20th of November outside the

25 hospital. I'm sure you will remember this was a TV interview that was

Page 12591

1 tendered while Mr. Kiper was testifying on the 27th of March this year,

2 and the transcript page is 6641. This was exhibited as 319. Mr. Kiper

3 was never asked about the interview, not a word was said about it, and the

4 interview appears to be identical to the present one, the same TV station,

5 the same day, and it was exhibited with no obstacles whatsoever. The

6 substance should be all right, unless the OTP mean to challenge the

7 authenticity or the date of this interview, since they don't seem to be

8 challenging the fact that the interview was given on the 20th of

9 November. I do believe the interview to be a highly relevant one to the

10 charges in the indictment and the facts therein.

11 I also believe Mr. Borsinger's interview to be highly relevant to

12 our case. Bearing in mind there is a transcript of Goran Hadzic's

13 interview I wanted to avoid having it entered under Rule 92. The

14 probative value of this interview in terms of whether he was a war

15 criminal at the time or a witness and in which capacity he gave this

16 interview or whether the OTP originally intended to exhibit this is only

17 something that the Chamber can judge.

18 In my closing argument, I will focus also on the reasons why the

19 OTP are trying to challenge this document and oppose its admission. I

20 believe that shows their true strategy. I do, however, believe that the

21 Delalic ruling clearly tells us in this case why this exhibit is extremely

22 relevant to our case, since it affects directly the allegations in our

23 indictment. Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 12592

1 JUDGE PARKER: Our decision is reserved.

2 Mr. Borovic.

3 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, just before Mr. -- just before

4 Mr. Borovic starts, Mr. Theunens will be sitting in with us with the

5 Court's permission.

6 JUDGE PARKER: There is leave, Mr. Weiner.

7 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

8 JUDGE PARKER: I take it your client has been advised by you,

9 Mr. Borovic, of his rights and his ability not to give evidence if he so

10 wishes and that he need not answer questions which do not incriminate

11 him. If your client would like to come to the witness position.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before my client takes

13 the stand, may I use this opportunity to say something before I start my

14 examination?

15 JUDGE PARKER: You may, Mr. Borovic. I would just point out that

16 no doubt due to my error, page 6, line 414, there is a word "not

17 incriminate." It should be "incriminate."

18 We will give your client the affirmation now, Mr. Borovic.

19 Would you read aloud the affirmation on the card?

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before he does that,

21 there is one problem that I would like to raise. The Defence has served

22 on the OTP -- or rather, served on the OTP on the 2nd of October all the

23 relevant materials that will be used throughout this testimony, the

24 statements and the documents. Today, at 11.00, we received from the OTP

25 an e-mail indicating the five documents that they would be using. This

Page 12593

1 was at 11.00. I took two hours to go through the documents, and to

2 discuss with my client what he would be shown and how he would comment on

3 these documents. Not even a minute before we entered the courtroom I

4 received a new e-mail from the OTP informing us that they would be using a

5 further four documents. I believe this is a situation in which the

6 Chamber should refuse the OTP the right to use these further documents

7 since their notice was far too late. I had no time to confer with my

8 client to see what the documents would be and in reference to just which

9 circumstances. The first five documents are all right, the ones that were

10 announced at 11.00, but the last four that I received came in too late. I

11 think this is a bad strategy by the OTP, and I think this sort of strategy

12 might impair our good relations that we have so far enjoyed throughout

13 this trial.

14 I think the Chamber should rule against this. Although this might

15 in fact in no way impair the best interests of the Defence but it might be

16 a violation of Article 21 of the Statute, a blatant one, in fact. Thank

17 you.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner?

19 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, of the four, one of them is a Defence

20 exhibit which was tendered upon the Prosecution; it is the rules of

21 infantry. The other are nothing more than statements of other persons to

22 confront him with, basically the same as there has been testimony at the

23 Belgrade court by a witness saying that you were in command of X unit.

24 Those can be done with a document or those can be done without a

25 document. We are not -- we were not looking -- we were not planning to

Page 12594

1 put those documents to the witness other than just a statement to the

2 witness.

3 JUDGE PARKER: I take it of those last three documents, people who

4 gave that evidence in the Belgrade court are not to be called as

5 witnesses?

6 MR. WEINER: That is correct. I'm just trying to think off-hand.

7 I think one is Vujanovic, whose statement was also put to Mr. Jaksic. One

8 is Kameni which is Milan Lancuzanin, and another one is the superior or

9 the commander of this witness, which is Mr. Tesic.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, the Chamber will not receive in

12 evidence those three documents, that is the transcripts of evidence or

13 statements, whichever they are, of the last three witnesses you have

14 mentioned. The -- nor will those documents be put to your client. But

15 Mr. Weiner will be free to cross-examine without use of a document on the

16 subject matter if he chooses. With respect to the fourth document, the

17 first mentioned by Mr. Weiner, it's a standard official publication of the

18 JNA at the time and I don't think that should be an issue, so that may be

19 used. Thank you for that.

20 Sorry to keep you. If you would now read aloud the affirmation.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.

Page 12595

1 Yes, Mr. Borovic.

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Examination by Mr. Borovic:

4 Q. Mr. Radic, I hope the early stage-fright is now gone. Can you

5 please share your personal details with the Trial Chamber? Can you tell

6 them about your family? I'll try to avoid interrupting you frequently.

7 We shall then be moving on to your career in the JNA from the very start

8 to the time you left the JNA. Please go ahead, sir.

9 A. Good afternoon, Your Honours. As everyone probably knows, my name

10 is Miroslav Radic. I was born on the 10th of September in Zemun; it's a

11 municipality belonging to Belgrade, to the greater Belgrade area. I

12 completed my primary school in there. I went to the secondary military

13 school in Belgrade and then completed two years at the military academy in

14 Belgrade plus two further years of specialised training at the military

15 school in Sarajevo.

16 Q. Thank you. When you came to Belgrade, which positions did you

17 first occupy in the army?

18 A. I completed the academy in July 1985. I was promoted to the rank

19 second lieutenant and was sent to the Guards Motorised Brigade to serve as

20 platoon commander, in one of the infantry battalions -- or rather,

21 motorised battalions.

22 Q. Thank you. After this you remained with the battalion or --

23 A. After two years as platoon commander, I was appointed company

24 commander within a special purpose battalion. A battalion securing

25 buildings that we -- and facilities that were used for special purposes,

Page 12596

1 including the memorial centre, the Josip Broz Tito Memorial Centre in

2 Belgrade. I remained in that position for a full five years. After 1990,

3 I became company commander in one of the infantry companies within the

4 composition of the 1st Motorised Battalion.

5 Q. Thank you. Of which company were you a commander and for how

6 long, until which year?

7 A. I started in mid-1990 and remained there until mid-1992, roughly

8 speaking. This was the 3rd Company of the 1st Motorised Battalion.

9 Q. Thank you. Please go ahead, sir.

10 A. After this, I was appointed deputy commander of the military

11 police battalion of the 46th Motorised Regiment. The regiment was

12 stationed on a hill near Belgrade, the hill is known as Avala.

13 Q. Thank you. How long did you remain with the JNA for? And it

14 might be a good idea to tell the Court right now what the reasons were

15 behind you leaving the JNA.

16 A. I submitted a request to terminate my contract with the JNA on the

17 21st of June, 1993. The request was dealt with in October that same

18 year. My reasons for leaving active service with the JNA were of a

19 private nature. I explicitly stated this in my request.

20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radic, before we move on to Vukovar and what

21 happened there, would you please be so kind as to tell the Trial Chamber

22 about your family background? I did ask you about that, but I think you

23 sort of skipped that in your first answer.

24 A. I'm married, father of two, and I have a son who is a student at

25 the Belgrade university. My other son is still in secondary school. My

Page 12597

1 wife is a judge at one of Belgrade's municipal courts and is currently

2 serving as the deputy court president.

3 Q. I think this should be sufficient for our purposes. I think we

4 should now go on to describe how your unit arrived in the Vukovar area and

5 when.

6 A. The Guards Motorised Brigade on orders issued by the superior

7 command was put in a state of combat alert on the 30th of September,

8 1991. The 1st Motorised Battalion within which my company was, set out in

9 the early morning hours in marching order, in motor vehicles, in the

10 following direction: Belgrade, Sid, Negoslavci.

11 As we crossed over into the territory of the Republic of Croatia

12 in the area of the village of Djelatovci, this marching column was fired

13 at by the other side, using infantry weapons. So my unit was forced to

14 stop so that the personnel would leave the motor vehicles. On that

15 occasion, fortunately, none of the present soldiers or officers were

16 wounded except for the materiel damage sustained by the motor vehicles,

17 namely punctured tyres and shots at the vehicles themselves, no one was

18 actually injured.

19 Q. Thank you. After that, and if so when, did you proceed along the

20 charted course and when did you arrive at Negoslavci?

21 A. That was the first situation that my unit was in a time of war,

22 and it was only then that we realised how serious the task that we were

23 given was. After a very short period of time, the unit proceeded, again

24 in a marching order, towards the village of Negoslavci, but at one point

25 in time again it had to stop because mortar fire was opened at the

Page 12598

1 column. The superior command decided that all units from the

2 1st Motorised Battalion should continue, continue moving ahead on foot to

3 a farm that was called Dubrava.

4 Q. Thank you. How much time did you spend at Dubrava and did you

5 work out any particular deployment in Dubrava?

6 A. As we arrived at the Dubrava farm, the marching column was met by

7 the battalion commander himself, Major Borivoj Tesic, and he ordered me

8 verbally the area and the direction in which my company was supposed to be

9 deployed. I took up positions in that area and according to all combat

10 rules, I deployed my soldiers and gave them assignments as to how they

11 should be positioned in the area.

12 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us now when the unit started combat

13 action and practically how it was brought into combat?

14 A. Before the unit started combat action, on the 1st of October of

15 that year, in the evening hours, the commander of the battalion, Major

16 Borivoj Tesic, called all the company commanders from within that

17 battalion to come to a little house where the battalion's command post

18 was, within the farm itself. That is where he issued a combat order to

19 all companies individually, stating all the necessary elements for that

20 combat order.

21 Q. Thank you. On that occasion, did he tell you what you could come

22 across while you're carrying out this task?

23 A. Within the combat order, Major Tesic told all the company

24 commanders, including myself, that in Vukovar itself, we would come across

25 a well-fortified and prepared enemy, consisting of paramilitary formations

Page 12599

1 of the Republic of Croatia.

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radic, could you please tell the Court whether at

3 that time you were aware of the objective or the reason why the Guards

4 Brigade came to Vukovar? Did you know?

5 A. The objective why the Guards Brigade went to Vukovar was something

6 that we were made aware of before we were actually sent to Vukovar. It

7 was spelled out in specific terms through an order issued by the battalion

8 commander at the command post, at the farm in Dubrava. At that moment,

9 Major Tesic told us that the task of the Guards Brigade was to liberate

10 the barracks of the Yugoslav People's Army that was within the town

11 itself, to lift in this way the blockade of the paramilitary forces of the

12 Republic of Croatia, and also to free the non-Serb population that was in

13 different basements, catacombs and shelters against their own will.

14 Q. Thank you. At the command post, were you told anything else by

15 Tesic in terms of these tasks, apart from the objectives you referred to

16 just now?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On that occasion, was an explanation given to you as to where you

19 were supposed to arrive, the direction in which you were supposed to act?

20 A. That first evening, the battalion commander issued us an order in

21 terms of what our tasks would be and how the unit would be brought into

22 the region where we were expected to go, and from there the unit was

23 supposed to launch an attack.

24 Q. Thank you. Before you proceed, could you tell the Court what it

25 means in military terms, this waiting sector, this region where this was

Page 12600

1 expected to take place?

2 A. In military terms, a waiting sector is an area, piece of land,

3 from where a unit is supposed to set out to launch an attack. That area

4 is used for the last preparations to be carried out by the unit from a

5 logistics and combat point of view, which is to say that the unit, prior

6 to the attack, is being replenished with ammunition and other necessary

7 resources used by officers and soldiers during an attack. In this waiting

8 sector, the leaders of platoons - I'm talking about company level and

9 rank - as well as squad leaders, receive their own combat tasks and they

10 convey these tasks to their own subordinate soldiers.

11 Q. Thank you. And what was your waiting sector? How did you get

12 there?

13 A. On the 2nd of October just after midnight, that is to say in the

14 early morning hours, while we were staying at the Dubrava farm, we were in

15 a state of combat alert; and after a brief period of time, we rallied in a

16 semi-open hangar. On the previous evening, the battalion commander told

17 us that all companies would get guides who were local people from Vukovar

18 itself, and whose task was to bring us safely to the Petrova Gora

19 neighbourhood.

20 Q. Thank you. Can you explain to the Court in a bit of detail what

21 the neighbourhood of Petrova Gora in Vukovar is and where it actually is.

22 A. The neighbourhood of Petrova Gora includes a part of the town of

23 Vukovar which is to the west and southwest, and it includes the following

24 streets -- or at least that was my understanding of Petrova Gora at the

25 time: Namely, Ulica Oslobodjenje and Ulica Svetozara Markovica, the

Page 12601

1 street of Svetozar Markovic from the very entrance into the town of

2 Vukovar from the direction of the village of Negoslavci, and up to the

3 area where there is an intersection of that street with Radnicka Street

4 and also part of Radnicka Street.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] The transcript does not include the

7 fact that he said it also includes the street of Petrova Gora.

8 Q. Am I right, Mr. Radic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Can you now explain what this first encounter looked

11 like when you arrived in this waiting sector of Petrova Gora, how you

12 felt, what you as a unit felt, and as a representative of the unit which

13 was considered to be an elite unit, at least that is what the Prosecution

14 claims.

15 A. Before I give an answer to your question, I would just like to ask

16 for permission to give a brief introduction. On that night, the 2nd of

17 October, when we left the Dubrava farm towards Vukovar itself, the most

18 striking thing I recall to this day was the silence in which the unit or,

19 rather, my company moved along during the night without any lights

20 whatsoever. As for this silence, it was probably caused by fear, the fear

21 that we soldiers and officers felt at the time. I can say quite freely,

22 without any feeling of shame, that that fear was so great that it was

23 almost palpable.

24 We arrived in Petrova Gora in the early morning hours, around 5.00

25 in the morning, and full combat readiness was to be reached at 7.00. At

Page 12602

1 Petrova Gora, we were met by individual local persons who I believed at

2 the time were representatives of the territorial detachment that was at

3 Petrova Gora. As for that detachment, the battalion commander, Mr. Tesic,

4 said that they would act in concert together with us during the combat

5 action.

6 I wish to point out that I find this thesis a bit strange, namely

7 the thesis that we had occasion to hear in this courtroom that the Guards

8 Brigade was an elite unit in the Yugoslav People's Army, because I

9 personally experienced and saw with my own eyes soldiers who were from my

10 company, and I believe that this was the case with soldiers from other

11 companies as well, who, during the course of the training that we carried

12 out together with them in Belgrade, primarily carried out duties that had

13 nothing whatsoever to do with combat training of persons or soldiers who

14 are preparing for war action. For the most part, the duties we carried

15 out were things related to protocol, like standing a guard of honour on

16 special occasions and in special buildings. It is my understanding that

17 an elite unit has to be trained and should be ready to carry out combat

18 action, engage in combat action, in all kinds of terrain, in all

19 situations that such a unit can find itself in.

20 Q. Thank you. Could you then tell us specifically what it was that

21 the Guards Motorised Brigade did. Where did you provide security and what

22 did you actually do before you came to the area of Vukovar?

23 A. As I've already said, I came to the Guards Brigade in 1985, and I

24 was assigned to one of the two motorised battalions that had, as its task,

25 to be involved in training for six months, that is to say training young

Page 12603

1 soldiers, and then for six months to provide security for facilities, to

2 stand a guard of honour at airports for visiting foreign dignitaries.

3 Q. Thank you. Could you please be so kind as to say whether you as a

4 soldier heard of specialised units in western military forces or units

5 that are called SAS, Alphas and Seals? First of all, have you heard of

6 these units; and secondly, could you tell us whether you were that type of

7 unit, that type of unit that was trained for action in built-up areas?

8 A. According to the curriculum that was in place for various JNA

9 units, there is a topic which deals with combat in settlements. However,

10 it doesn't even come close to satisfy the needs in which we found

11 ourselves, because apart from some technical points taught to soldiers

12 during such a course, there is no mention of any psychological or other

13 type of preparation of soldiers that could prepare them for situations

14 they can encounter during an attack on a settlement. As officers, we try

15 to teach them how to carry out an action against armoured vehicles and

16 infantry in a settlement, but we do not prepare them psychologically. And

17 in my view, that was one of the basic flaws of that type of training that

18 we used to undergo.

19 Special units, such as the ones you mentioned in various armies of

20 economically powerful countries, undergo exclusively combat training, and

21 they are being prepared for such combat situations specifically. On the

22 other hand, JNA units prepare themselves for the most part for situations

23 during combat but only to a very limited extent; this goes especially for

24 the Guards Brigade because the soldiers there were specifically being

25 prepared for the tasks I had mentioned, guards of honour, standing guard,

Page 12604

1 and so on and so forth.

2 Q. So as not to omit a topic which I believe is important, can you

3 tell us what was the ethnic makeup of the Guards Motorised Brigade when

4 you set off to Vukovar. Specifically in -- within the company you

5 commanded, were there people of other ethnicities other than Serbs, that

6 is?

7 A. The guard unit was manned by A-class soldiers, and it was of mixed

8 ethnic composition. This means that among its rank there were people

9 from -- of various ethnicities, from all over former Yugoslavia, and this

10 goes for soldiers as well as for officers.

11 Q. Thank you. There were assertions made here that once you were

12 told to go to Vukovar, that members of the JNA who were of different

13 ethnicity were basically prevented from going or even arrested so that

14 they wouldn't go to the area of Vukovar. First of all, is that correct?

15 And secondly, what was the ethnic composition of your unit?

16 A. For the first question, that assertion is untrue. Those who were

17 of Croatian ethnicity and who didn't want to be engaged in combat

18 activities in Vukovar were given the chance or the opportunity to, based

19 on their own decision, not to go to the area of Vukovar, and a smaller

20 portion of those soldiers did not go in the first place.

21 As regards the makeup of my unit, I recall that there were several

22 Croatian soldiers there, and they left to the area of -- for the area of

23 Vukovar together with the unit. Among them was my company courier, who

24 was wounded after some ten days of action in Vukovar, and then he was

25 returned to Belgrade.

Page 12605

1 Q. Thank you. And what was his name?

2 A. I know what his name is, but with all due respect for the Court, I

3 don't want to create any problems for him, since this is a public hearing,

4 and since he participated in the combat activities. Therefore, by your

5 leave, I am willing to share his name with you provided we are in closed

6 session.

7 Q. We will indeed occasionally go into private session, and that is

8 perhaps when you will be able to give us that name. But my question is

9 this: Within your unit and the Motorised Guards Brigade, there were

10 Muslims, Hungarians, Montenegrins, Ruthenians, Macedonians, Albanians at

11 the time of your arrival to Vukovar?

12 A. Yes. I don't know about Albanians and Ruthenians, but the others

13 were there.

14 Q. Thank you. Now to go back to Petrova Gora. When you arrived in

15 the area of Petrova Gora on the 2nd of October - and Petrova Gora was part

16 of Vukovar, as you said - who did you meet there; and in brief, can you

17 explain the functioning of the Territorial Defence in that area once you

18 arrived?

19 A. As I mentioned already, we arrived at Petrova Gora around

20 5.00 a.m. on the 2nd of October. Several local residents awaited us

21 there, and it was my understanding that they were part of the local TO.

22 That day I learned that this unit which was in the settlement of Petrova

23 Gora was commanded by Miroljub Vujovic. I also learned that at Petrova

24 Gora there was a command post of that detachment or, rather, of that unit,

25 that there was also a rear command post, and both those posts were in a

Page 12606

1 house of a gentleman. And I was told his last name was Antic and his rank

2 was captain first class.

3 I also learned that at Petrova Gora, there was a kitchen -- a

4 cooking facility where food was being prepared for the local residents as

5 well as the members of the TO Petrova Gora detachment. There was also a

6 local outpatient clinic there, as well as a storage for ammunition and

7 other materiel; this was a secondary storage, the principal one being at

8 Velepromet.

9 Q. Thank you. As members of the JNA, and specifically as members of

10 the 3rd Company, did you make use of their storage and their cooking

11 facility and their rear services?

12 A. Occasionally we used their medical facility. As regards the other

13 facilities, we didn't use them because at the battalion command level we

14 had a rear platoon, the purpose of which was to supply all the companies

15 with food, ammunition, and all other resources. And they were to draw

16 that from the logistics base which was set up for all the units within the

17 Guards Brigade.

18 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that the members of the TO used their

19 own facilities, their own storage, their own cooking facility and medical

20 facilities; and you on the other hand had your own, apart from the medical

21 facility you mentioned? And a question related to that is: Did you as

22 the JNA have your own hospital in Vukovar?

23 A. In Vukovar itself, there was no hospital. All those who had been

24 wounded and were members of the JNA were transported to the village of

25 Negoslavci, where the military hospital was set up, and this military

Page 12607

1 hospital was part of the Guards Motorised Brigade.

2 Q. Does that mean that you used separate facilities, the JNA on one

3 hand and the TO on the other? Did you have your own different posts and

4 facilities, including the medical facility, the kitchen, the ammo depot,

5 fuel depot? Were all these facilities separate?

6 A. As I've said already, we were supposed to have been supplied

7 through our rear platoon. We were supposed to receive food, ammunition,

8 fuel, and everything else we needed through them, and we were supposed to

9 receive that from the battalion command. Company officers were tasked

10 with taking those supplies at the place where the command platoon that was

11 in charge of logistics within the 1st Battalion was.

12 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the Croatian paramilitary formations.

13 They were one of your targets. My question is: Can you explain to the

14 Chamber your first attack, provide some detail but not too much.

15 A. The first attack commenced on the 2nd of October at 7.00 a.m. The

16 unit set off from the settlement of Petrova Gora towards Nova Ulica, this

17 being the direction of attack of my unit towards the river of Vuka. That

18 attack --

19 Q. Sorry. Please go on.

20 A. On that first day, the attack was characterised by the presence of

21 fear among the young people who were all within the range of 18 to 20. It

22 was understandable for me to see that. We were all together in the same

23 boat and we were all well aware that we could lose our lives. All of my

24 effort on that day and the days after that, for as long as we were in

25 Vukovar, concentrated on trying to protect all those young people as best

Page 12608

1 as I could, because I thought them children at the time and that they were

2 sent there against their will - since they had to abide by the rule of

3 law - and they were simply sucked into that conflict. It was clear to me

4 that without specific help, those young people would not be able to

5 perform all the combat actions required up to the end, without significant

6 losses in manpower.

7 Q. Could you tell us what was one of the immediate tasks of the

8 company? What part of Vukovar, if you can recall, were you supposed to

9 liberate on that first assignment?

10 A. My unit was given two combat tasks. The first one was received by

11 myself at the Dubrava farm when Major Tesic, based on a map, issued orders

12 to all company commanders, and he issued us with directions of attack.

13 This included myself as well. I was tasked then to attack along the axis

14 from the settlement of Petrova Gora via -- or rather, through Nova Ulica,

15 through the settlement which at the time we called Leva Supoderica, all

16 the way up to the road leaving Vukovar, leading to a neighbouring

17 village. We were also to take the settlement of Seste Proleterske

18 Divizije, which was south of river Vuka.

19 Q. Thank you. When you say Leva Supoderica, is that a part of a

20 settlement or is it a street in that area?

21 A. As a matter of fact, Leva Supoderica is a street connecting three

22 other streets in the same neighbourhood. Because of a geographical

23 feature known as Supoderica, these streets keep you from reaching the

24 Bogdanovci road. However, in order to be able to get around more easily

25 we referred to the whole neighbourhood as Leva Supoderica, although in

Page 12609

1 actual fact I'm not sure that is its real name.

2 Q. Thank you very much. The witness told us that there was such a

3 neighbourhood as Desna Supoderica. Do you think that is a correct

4 statement or is it in fact erroneous?

5 A. As far as I know, there is only one very short street called Desna

6 Supoderica which is exactly across the way from Leva Supoderica and there

7 is the Bogdanovac road passing between them.

8 Q. Was there such a unit as Desna Supoderica? Was there a unit known

9 by that name?

10 A. No, not as far as I know. There was never a unit that was called

11 that.

12 Q. I'm sorry I interrupted you a minute ago. You were talking about

13 that first mission. Can you tell us who was involved and how the enemy

14 was operating, what weapons did they use against you and what was the

15 outcome of that first mission?

16 A. Our first combat experience was peculiar in more ways than one.

17 The battalion commander, Major Tesic, had told us that we would be

18 supported by a local TO unit in this assignment; however, it wasn't ready

19 for the attack on that first day, the unit which was supposed to be the

20 unit adjacent to us. On that first day, my own unit was carrying out

21 combat operations and some of our soldiers were wounded and injured as a

22 result. On that first day, along the axis of operations of my unit, three

23 tanks were damaged and put out of action; for me, that spelled a serious

24 and considerable loss.

25 At the junction of Nova and Bukajloviceva Streets, Bukajloviceva

Page 12610

1 Street, at one point in time, one of the tanks that were added to the

2 company was hit by a missile fired by the enemy. Soon after, it was hit

3 several more times, so it caught fire eventually. There was nearly a full

4 combat kit inside consisting of 40 anti-tank [as interpreted] mines. My

5 concern at the time was that were those mines to explode, many soldiers

6 would be wounded and killed among those standing near the tank. I decided

7 to withdraw all the soldiers from that sector and to literally go back to

8 our original position from which we had set out. That was our combat

9 experience on that first day.

10 I just wish to correct an error that I have noticed in the

11 transcript. I said that there were 40 tank mines in that tank, not

12 anti-tank mines, which means that this is a sort of mine which is used by

13 these tanks to fire.

14 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Radic. We could speed things along now a

15 little, and if you could tell us how the Petrova Gora TO unit and the Leva

16 Supoderica Detachment joined the fighting, as well as the volunteers

17 arriving in Vukovar?

18 A. The TO unit stationed at Petrova Gora joined the fighting the next

19 day, as a neighbouring unit. The platoons from my company, based on the

20 axis of operations that had been assigned them, worked together in the

21 following way. On the one side, there were the JNA soldiers advancing,

22 members of the Guards Brigade, and on the opposite side of the same

23 street, you had the TO members advancing. I then noticed a problem, the

24 problem being that the TO men were far better trained in the sense of

25 having more combat experience, of being less scared. Soon the difference

Page 12611

1 was obvious, in terms of experience and effectiveness, between the JNA men

2 and the TO men.

3 Q. Very well. You talked about the command post of the 1st Motorised

4 Battalion. Who manned the command post and what was going on there?

5 A. I apologise. Before I answer your question, I would just like to

6 complete my previous answer. Along the axis of operations of my company

7 there was a TO unit joining the next day. The volunteers arriving over

8 the following period were being incorporated into the TO. As for the axis

9 of operations of my company, on the 20th of October, a unit arrived that I

10 was told was called the Leva Supoderica Detachment.

11 And now for your question. Our battalion's command post was at

12 Svetozara Markovica Street. It was at this command post that the command

13 or the headquarters of the 1st Motorised Battalion or the 1st Assault

14 Detachment was stationed. It was at the same command post that the

15 commander of the TO staff was, Mr. Dusan Jaksic, who was then captain

16 first class. Speaking of the command post itself, the battalion

17 command -- or rather, the assault detachment, I wish to point out the

18 following. The command post is a room and the command post implied also a

19 handful of adjacent houses. The command itself was in one of those

20 houses. In the command there were the battalion commander, Mr. Borivoje

21 Tesic; his deputy, Captain Slavko Stijakovic; the general affairs officer,

22 Mr. Bojic; and the battalion's signals officer, Sergeant Stamenkovic.

23 Q. At the start of combat operations, who were the TO men receiving

24 their orders from and how did the combat plan evolve later on? Can you

25 tell us more about this cooperation that you've been talking about.

Page 12612

1 A. The company commanders from our battalion received their

2 assignments and reported on any assignments already carried out at the

3 command post to the battalion commander himself on a daily basis. The TO

4 commanders reported in that same place to Captain First Class Dusan

5 Jaksic. Given the fact that Mr. Tesic and Mr. Jaksic were using the same

6 rooms, it was only logical that they would be working on cooperation

7 between the 1st Motorised Battalion and the TO detachment; the reason

8 being, when the battalion commander, Major Tesic, issued assignments and

9 missions to us specifying the axis of operations, he would always do this

10 in the presence of Captain Jaksic. He would sometimes make suggestions

11 whenever he deemed this to be necessary about the assignment in hand,

12 based on which I concluded that those two were working closely together,

13 while each of them issued assignments to their own subordinate units.

14 Q. Thank you. Some time ago you told us that at the start of

15 operations, the JNA were advancing down one side of the street, clearing

16 the area, and the TO men were advancing down the opposite side of the

17 street; and as a form of cooperation, this worked just fine. How many

18 platoons did you have at the start of operations and who were they led by

19 at the beginning, and what happened later on?

20 A. This form of cooperation might as well have gone on functioning

21 well, but on the third day of operations what I believe was a tragedy

22 occurred when the commander of my 1st Platoon, who was also my deputy,

23 Lieutenant Vostic, Radoje Vostic, was killed. The very next day, the

24 commander of the 3rd Platoon, Sergeant Dejan Jovanovic, was forced to

25 leave the unit on health grounds. He had spine problems at the time, and

Page 12613

1 the doctors who had examined him eventually advised him to leave the unit

2 and not return. It was based on that that Major Tesic sent Sergeant

3 Jovanovic to join a rear platoon.

4 As a result, over the first four or five days, I was left without

5 two platoon commanders. Given the fact that my company consisted of three

6 platoons in addition to myself, the only one remaining was Second

7 Lieutenant Elvir Hadzic, who had been trained at the high military academy

8 but had completed a two-year course at the military school, simply because

9 this was possible at the time. He had not done four years - that's what

10 I'm trying to say - but only two instead.

11 Q. Since we only have a little time left now, can you please tell us,

12 if you remember this tragedy - that's how you define it - when your deputy

13 was killed. Did someone manage to evacuate his body? What exactly

14 happened, briefly?

15 A. This was the first tragedy that struck me in Vukovar and it was a

16 truly painful one. On the 5th of October, when the platoon commanded by

17 Lieutenant Vostic entered Osmog Marta Street, they came under mortar fire

18 by the enemy. It was as a result of this mortar fire that he sustained a

19 shrapnel wound to the head. They told me that he had been injured, and I

20 came running to that place. I asked several soldiers to help me to crawl

21 over to where he was because the first thing that occurred to me was that

22 he had been wounded, or maybe he was just unconscious as a result of the

23 explosion. However, when I finally reached his body, crawling on all

24 fours, I realised that he had sustained a shrapnel wound to the head and

25 that he was no longer alive. Regrettably, because of the exceptionally

Page 12614

1 heavy mortar fire that we were under and because I did not wish to risk

2 any further loss of life to the soldiers who were with me, I decided to

3 leave his body behind in the place where he was killed. We weren't able

4 to evacuate his body before the next day.

5 Q. Thank you very much. I think this is a convenient time for our

6 first break, so I'll have to interrupt you.

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may it please the

8 Court?

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

10 Ten past 4.00, Mr. Borovic.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Borovic.

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. You said that with your soldiers you got him out of that spot. A

16 soldier says that he is the one who got him out, and he said that he

17 carried out parts of his body actually in a blanket and that this

18 afflicted him terribly and was therefore treated at the neuropsychiatric

19 ward at the military medical hospital in Belgrade. Have you heard about

20 that? Is that true or not?

21 A. I'd like to correct you. I think I said that on that first day I

22 tried to get him out together with a few soldiers, but because of the

23 mortar fire we couldn't do that. On the following day, as for the body of

24 the late Lieutenant Radoje Vostic, the members of the Territorial Defence

25 got his body out in actual fact, those who had the courage to do that

Page 12615

1 during the break, before the combat operations started on that day. They

2 had the courage to go there -- that is to say at that time there was no

3 combat. They had the courage to go there and to bring him back. I'm 100

4 per cent sure of that, and I know that not a single one of my soldiers

5 took part in getting him out -- or rather, getting his mortal remains

6 out. So that assertion is not true, absolutely not.

7 Q. Thank you. Could you now be so kind as to tell us when it was

8 that the Leva Supoderica Detachment came to your company's axis.

9 A. I remember certain dates. The first date was when

10 Lieutenant Vostic got killed, and that was the 5th of October. On the

11 10th of October, one of my soldiers from my own company got killed;

12 Djordje Nikolic was his name. At the moment when I was hit, fortunately

13 it was only my pistol that got hit, the one that was on my belt, and I was

14 taken to the hospital in Negoslavci. On the 18th of October -- or rather,

15 I remember the 18th of October as the day when the only reservist got

16 killed, the only reservist who was mobilised in Belgrade. He was

17 mobilised and he joined my company. He was an ethnic Albanian. His name

18 was Alija Gimani I think. I'm not sure.

19 As for that date, when this reservist got killed -- or rather, two

20 days after that date, the members of the Leva Supoderica Detachment came.

21 So that was the 20th of October, therefore. And the battalion commander,

22 Major Borivoj Tesic, introduced their commander to me, Milan Lancuzanin,

23 nicknamed Kameni. And I was told that they would act in concert with my

24 company and the Territorial Defence unit, that we would be engaged on the

25 same task from that date onwards.

Page 12616

1 Q. Thank you. Did he have his own command post, Milan Lancuzanin, or

2 rather the Leva Supoderica Detachment?

3 A. Milan Lancuzanin was born in Vukovar, and his house was in the

4 street called Leva Supoderica. His detachment probably got that same name

5 on account of that street, and I know from various conversations with him

6 that the original plan was for him to be deployed next to my right-hand

7 neighbour, and that was the 2nd Company of our battalion that was

8 commanded by Captain Zoran Zirojevic. However, he insisted with the

9 battalion commander that he should come to where his house was. So it was

10 on the basis of his own insistence that he was deployed there where my

11 axis was.

12 Since he was a local person from Vukovar who was familiar with the

13 area, he himself chose his command post, which was in Nova Ulica,

14 practically at the beginning of this street, viewed from the neighbourhood

15 of Petrova Gora. In a house that belonged to a local person, his first

16 name was Vasa, and his nickname was Robija.

17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radic, you just mentioned your axis and the axis

18 of operations. My question was whether an assault group was formed on

19 your axis of operation and what can you tell us with regard to this

20 important question?

21 A. Before I answer this question, I would like to make a brief

22 introduction. Like the other company commanders, I was told that our

23 battalion was -- on the basis of the first order of the brigade commander,

24 Mr. Mile Mrksic, had the role of an assault unit, and it was the first

25 assault unit within the Guards Brigade. The assault groups did not appear

Page 12617

1 from the first day because the commander of the 1st Assault Detachment,

2 Major Borivoj Tesic, did not issue an order for them to be established.

3 After the first 20 or so days of carrying out our combat task, we,

4 the company commanders, like the command of the 1st Assault Detachment,

5 became aware of certain difficulties that we encountered during combat

6 operations. I cannot remember exactly, but I know for sure that this was

7 after the Leva Supoderica Detachment arrived. As far as I know, at the

8 proposal of the commander of the Petrova Gora Territorial Defence

9 detachment, and at the proposal of Miroljub Vujovic, who commanded a unit

10 that was from Petrova Gora, the commander issued an order to establish an

11 assault group along all the axes -- or rather, in all the companies.

12 As for some more specific instructions, in terms of how this

13 assault group was to be established, we did not have any. So after

14 receiving this assignment, I consulted the company platoon rule, in which

15 I read that an assault group should consist of a reinforced platoon with

16 different kinds of equipment for combat support. Since the recommendation

17 of the battalion commander, and therefore his order was that this assault

18 group should be made up of the best soldiers, it was my understanding that

19 this assault group would not involve my soldiers. At that time I thought,

20 and I believe to this day, that from the point of view of combat, they

21 were not capable of fighting the enemy in urban warfare, which is the most

22 complex form of combat in built-up areas.

23 Since that was the idea of Miroljub Vujovic, that assault group

24 was established in a way so as to make it consist of the members of the

25 Territorial Defence along my axis and of members of the Leva Supoderica

Page 12618

1 Detachment. My role as company commander on that axis was to coordinate

2 the assault group, the support group, which was also established at that

3 point in time, and that was actually a platoon of 82-millimetre mortars,

4 which came from the TO Petrova Gora and whose firing position was within

5 Petrova Gora itself, the neighbourhood of Petrova Gora, that is, out in

6 the open, together with soldiers that organised the security of the

7 territory that this assault group was supposed to liberate.

8 Q. Thank you. Before you continue in greater detail about your tasks

9 and about the combat itself, my specific question would be the following:

10 Was the assault group a temporary formation?

11 A. As envisaged by the rules on the basis of which we carried out

12 combat action, my company was a unit of establishment, and a company is a

13 unit that does not change. It consists of soldiers belonging only to one

14 of the services, and that is the infantry. In combat operations, it can

15 be reinforced with different types of equipment, tanks, and other means of

16 support, but only up to the strength of one platoon -- or rather, less

17 than one platoon and up to one platoon. As for temporary formations that

18 are established in order to carry out a particular task, they are assault

19 groups; and in my axis an assault group was established, as I explained a

20 few moments ago.

21 Q. Thank you. As a temporary formation -- as it was a temporary

22 formation, what did its actual strength depend on? Did it depend on the

23 concrete task involved and did the strength, the number of personnel,

24 change?

25 A. That assault group that had been formed along the axis of the 3rd

Page 12619

1 Assault Group, this being my axis as well, the axis I commanded over, was

2 at the level of a squad. Its manning strength fluctuated, depending on

3 the given task.

4 Q. Once a task is completed, what happens with a -- with the assault

5 group? Members of that temporary formation, are they being returned to

6 their home units once the task has been completed?

7 A. I wanted to stress the following: In combat, the assault group

8 was commanded by Miroslav Vujovic -- Miroljub Vujovic; I liaisoned between

9 him and other elements of units which participated in that particular

10 action that were at my axis. Every day, once actions were completed -- or

11 rather, once there was no combat, all members of that assault group, so as

12 to be able to continue functioning, would return to their home units,

13 meaning if on that day there were four squads from among the members of

14 the TO and each squad had around ten soldiers, they would then return to

15 the TO unit and they would go home, according to Miroljub Vujovic's

16 plans. As for the members of the Leva Supoderica Detachment, they had up

17 to two or three squads within the assault group, and then they would

18 return to their home unit, their home unit being the Leva Supoderica

19 Detachment. They worked according to the plans of their commander, Milan

20 Lancuzanin, a.k.a. Kameni.

21 Q. This brings us to the time when you need to explain your role in

22 detail as regards your tasks during combat. You started explaining that

23 before, and could you please tell us: Once actions were completed for

24 that day, what were you doing afterwards?

25 A. Since along the axis of operations of my company, I was the only

Page 12620

1 officer who has completed the military academy, my task was to carry out

2 coordination of all combat and non-combat elements of the units which were

3 located along that particular axis. Those tasks included planning and the

4 way combat operations were to be carried out. I also needed to plan the

5 system of communication during combat, then the coordination between

6 various elements of the assault group, as well as providing security and

7 support - and the support, as I mentioned, was given by the mortar

8 platoon. The tasks also included the use of medical facilities and

9 various other rear services along my axis.

10 Q. Thank you. Before you would go into action the next day, there

11 must have been some planning. What was that planning? Did you do it all

12 by yourself or did you work on that with some other people? Could you

13 please explain that to the Court.

14 A. If one wants to control and plan any combat activity, be it an

15 attack or a defence, excuse me, one needs to do that thoroughly because

16 the outcome of that operation depends on it. Since I mentioned a moment

17 ago that I was the only officer who had completed the military academy, I

18 didn't want to leave it to chance that anyone should plan combat

19 operations except for myself. This means that Miroljub Vujovic didn't

20 know how to do that. I also knew that Milan Lancuzanin couldn't do that.

21 In order to protect the data and the system of communication, I

22 did that exclusively. This means that each evening, after all daily

23 activities had been completed, I withdrew to a separate room and I drew up

24 the communications systems for each squad leader separately, using code

25 names which usually included various colours, geographical terms and so on

Page 12621

1 and so forth. This was done so that in the process of communication, no

2 one but me could know who I was talking to and where that particular unit

3 or part of the unit or squad is at that moment.

4 Q. Thank you. When did you used to distribute those plans to the

5 squad commanders? At what time?

6 A. Since I used to draw up such plans before any action, for the

7 reasons of security, I would do that immediately prior to the -- prior to

8 action. I never drew up a plan and set it aside for the next two days or

9 so, but I would always do it the night before. Since we coordinated and

10 since the battalion commander would tell us the exact time when we were to

11 go into action at the level of battalion and the brigade, I always issued

12 those orders to those commanders which were part of the assault group

13 immediately prior to going into action, that is that morning. If we were

14 to start attacking at 7.00 a.m. and if we all assembled at 6.30, I used to

15 issue those tasks 10 to 15 minutes before we were supposed to set out.

16 Q. Thank you. You've explained your role and how you coordinated,

17 and we are now interested in hearing what the soldiers of your company

18 were doing while you were busy coordinating.

19 A. As I've said already, the system worked in a way that the assault

20 group would begin its attack, and I was always with the assault group or

21 immediately behind. This was done so that I could assist the

22 implementation of the task and to be at hand to the commanders of squads

23 from the motorised company, the 3rd Motorised Company, and I elevated the

24 level of their responsibility once I was stripped of two of my platoon

25 commanders, since Mr. Hadzic, Elvir, who was second lieutenant and the

Page 12622

1 only officer along my axis. I didn't trust anyone else sufficiently,

2 apart from him, to guide mortar fire by way of support for the assault

3 group attacking. Therefore, that task of commanding, observing and

4 guiding mortar fire - and the mortars we used were of 82-millimetre

5 calibre - I gave that task to him. He was not the commander of that

6 platoon of the 82-millimetre mortars but, rather, during combat he

7 commanded that platoon since I knew that the soldiers from the TO were

8 trained to use mortars, but I didn't know exactly to what extent they

9 could command and guide mortar fire. And for purely security and safety

10 reasons, I appointed him to command. The soldiers from the 3rd Company,

11 during preparations the previous day, were issued tasks via their squad

12 commanders as to which squad was to follow which part of the assault group

13 depending on the streets that were supposed to be liberated that day.

14 Q. I believe you said that the assault group which comprised members

15 of the TO and volunteers, you said that that assault group went in front

16 of your soldiers because they were more prepared and you tried to prevent

17 any loss of life to your soldiers, I wanted to ask you what the tasks of

18 your soldiers were then along that axis.

19 A. As I said, they were 18, 19, 20, those young soldiers, and it was

20 a heavy burden for them, imposed by the force of law. This is the way I

21 saw things then, and I still think along the same lines. My efforts

22 concentrated on trying to save or keep alive as many of them as possible,

23 because at that time I saw them as my children. I behaved more like a

24 parent than I would have had it been a peace situation in which we would

25 have an ordinary officer/soldier relationship. These were no barracks

Page 12623

1 conditions; these were conditions in which one could lose his or her life

2 easily.

3 On top of that, I kept repeating that I don't want them to bloody

4 their hands, but, rather, to carry out a task of securing facilities which

5 had been liberated and in that way to try and stay alive and not to be

6 forced to face the enemy directly. And I constantly tried to prevent any

7 of them having any contact with the enemy. Of course, I couldn't have all

8 of them around me at all times so that I would know exactly what they were

9 doing, but all of my effort was directed to that, to try and save as many

10 of them. I was perfectly aware that it all depended on the way I carry

11 out a particular task, and this could mean that they will survive or die.

12 Q. Very well. Since it seems we need to move along more quickly,

13 you've explained your role, your coordination, so on and so forth, but I

14 would like to know something else now. When there was no combat, where

15 were you specifically? Say an action was completed, people were returned

16 to their home units, and you've explained the role of the assault group.

17 After all that, where would you go?

18 A. I have explained already the way it functioned in the field.

19 After the completion of every action during October, that is until the

20 10th of November, members of the assault group would return to their home

21 units. My soldiers were part of the security provided for the newly

22 liberated territories. They were supposed to secure those areas. And I

23 would tour all of them on a daily basis, and I would issue individual

24 tasks to them. I also determined their direction of action and trying to

25 warn them of the possible lines of attack by the enemy. I also provided

Page 12624

1 instruction on securing facilities at night-time, and I tried to show them

2 the tricks of the trade that I had learned at combat, as to how to secure

3 a house and its approach. And often, I would spend the night with them in

4 the same house because I knew they were afraid. I was hoping to show them

5 that I was not, and I tried to convey my belief that they are capable of

6 carrying out a task by merely being present there. Therefore, I lived the

7 way they did.

8 Once I had done all of this, as I've explained, and before the

9 next day's fighting, I would withdraw and design the plans that I have

10 spoken about. If no fighting was planned for the next day, sometimes I

11 would stay with these soldiers and sleep in the same place as they did.

12 Q. Where was the place that you withdrew to? Where did you design

13 these plans? What was this street called? Whose house was it? Can you

14 please provide more detail.

15 A. During this trial, we have heard evidence indicating that the

16 house in which I was staying whenever I was resting was at Nova Street,

17 Number 81. The house belonged to Stanko Vujanovic's father. It was in

18 that house -- or rather, in the front yard of that house there was yet

19 another smaller house with three rooms, two be used as bedrooms and one

20 was used as a living-room. It was in this living-room that I would sit

21 alone, write things down, jot things down, draw things up for the next

22 day, in a bid to exercise my own command and control in such a way as to

23 live up to the expectations placed by the task assigned to me.

24 Q. Why did you choose that house to stay in?

25 A. Stanko Vujanovic's father's house was a house built using solid

Page 12625

1 materials; it had concrete foundations. I arrived at that house ten days

2 after my original arrival in Vukovar. It wasn't on day one that I went

3 straight to that house. At a briefing, the commander of the 1st Company,

4 Captain Sasa Bojkovski, informed Major Tesic that he had been to that

5 house at the exact time when it was hit by a missile fired by the

6 paramilitary units. None of the people inside the house were harmed.

7 Having heard that, I thought it was logical for me to go and have a look

8 at the house. Having seen for myself that this was indeed true, and that

9 the house was solid and safe, safe from mortar fire and other types of

10 artillery fire, I decided to use that house as my observation post, of

11 which I duly informed my battalion commander, Major Tesic.

12 Q. When you say "observation post," can you spell that out in purely

13 military terms? What does that mean? What does that imply? Is that the

14 place where a company commander normally stays?

15 A. Observation post is a combat element in the combat disposition of

16 a company. If a company is on the defence, this observation post can be

17 some sort of a large shelter. For example, it can be located on a

18 clearing. During an attack, the observation post also has a role to play

19 and is normally in the same place as the company commander.

20 Q. All right. Now yes or no, please: What about Stanko Vujanovic's

21 house -- or rather, his father's house at Nova Street 81, was it ever

22 described as the main operations staff for the liberation of Vukovar, yes

23 or no?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Was it ever described as the headquarters for the liberation of

Page 12626

1 Vukovar?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Was there ever a command post for the liberation of Vukovar in

4 that house? Could it be used for that kind of purpose at all or not?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What about the TO members and the Leva Supoderica men, did they

7 ever come to your observation post at Nova Street 81; if so, why? Just as

8 an assumption.

9 A. Of course they came. Normally they would come one by one. We

10 have heard evidence here that meetings were held there, meetings of

11 sorts. I myself was not the cabinet-type commander. I wasn't someone who

12 would just receive his subordinate officers so that they could pay their

13 respects. I was a commander who dealt with all problems and tasks as

14 envisaged in the rules governing the work of company commanders. I would

15 go and do commander reconnaissance wherever there was a problem. If there

16 was a problem at Nova Street, that's where I would go. If there was a

17 problem at Sava Kovacevic Street, that's where I would go.

18 Q. My question was: Were there any regular meetings held there, or

19 could any one of those officers individually come to your observation

20 post?

21 A. No regular meetings were ever held in that house. I'll just give

22 you one example that I remember. This was on the 20th when the Leva

23 Supoderica Detachment arrived, and when Milan Lancuzanin, also known as

24 Kameni, demanded to meet me. I told him to come. He brought six of his

25 own commanders with him. We were in the small room in the small house

Page 12627

1 because they all wanted to meet me. They all wanted to see who they would

2 be working with, and that was their position. And this was the only

3 meeting organised in this way and, for that purpose, that I ever held at

4 that house; there was never another meeting. As for soldiers coming

5 individually, soldiers who wanted, for one reason or the other, to talk to

6 me and to seek my advice, is not something that I ever turned down. I

7 wouldn't turn any of them away. Soldiers came to me for advice, and I

8 dispensed advice.

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Just for ease of following, can we

10 please have a ground plan of Stanko Vujanovic's father's house on our

11 Monitors, 2D11-0169.

12 Q. And as soon as we have that brought up on our screens, please

13 describe what you see. Is that the house you have in mind? Is that the

14 house at Nova Street 81?

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] It says here "Nova Street 91." The

16 number I see there is 91. This was added by the OTP when we forwarded

17 this ground plan to them. It said "Nova Street," and they probably didn't

18 know the house number. So somebody just put the figure 91 there. That's

19 not our own entry, just for you to know, 91.

20 At any rate, this is a document that we served in a timely manner

21 on the OTP, and that's why we would like the witness to have a look and

22 see whether this is consistent of the ground-plan of Stanko Vujanovic's

23 father's house. Is this the house in which he had these talks and where

24 he slept. I think this would be helpful to everyone because we haven't

25 actually seen this ground-plan yet.

Page 12628

1 Q. Is this the house and is this Nova Street Number 81?

2 A. I want to say that I was the one who drew this ground-plan in

3 2004. I used this to explain to my own Defence team what this house was

4 like, the house in which I was staying, meaning I was the one who drew

5 this. I was the one who marked all these different things, with the

6 exception of this number, 91. I really have no idea who added that.

7 Q. All right. That's of no consequence, but please tell us whether

8 the ground-plan is consistent with the house at Nova Street 81.

9 A. Yes, it is exactly the way I remember it to have been.

10 Q. Thank you. Would you please describe what this means, this

11 structure. Where were you? Where did you sleep and where was Stanko

12 Vujanovic's father's family?

13 A. Since I'm familiar with the way things work in this courtroom,

14 could I please have the magic pen so that I can mark things to make it

15 easier for everyone to understanding what's going on?

16 Q. Thank you very much for that suggestion, Mr. Radic; you'll be

17 receiving assistance immediately.

18 A. If you look at the upper half of the page, you see Nova Street.

19 That is the two words there. The house number is 81.

20 Q. Can you please mark that -- or rather change that over into 81.

21 A. [Marks]

22 So this number is not correct. On the left-hand side, marked by

23 the number 1, is the gate for cars to enter the front yard of the house.

24 Number 2 marks the door. On the right-hand side we can see the garage. I

25 remember that throughout our time there, there was a pool-table inside

Page 12629

1 which I marked as number 4. On the right-hand side of this sketch marked

2 by the number 5 is a room, and that was used as a living-room. This is

3 where I spent hours sitting, analysing, and planning before every

4 operation.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please use a line to mark the

6 direction from the door to the room marked as number 5. Where exactly

7 would you have to go to get there?

8 A. You take the door first, then you go here.

9 Q. Please put an arrow there.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Please put a number 1 there, this path from the door to the room

12 in which you worked.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please continue.

15 A. Given the fact that sometimes circumstances compelled me to work

16 late into the night, it would sometimes happen that in the room that I

17 marked as number 6, which was one of the bedrooms, I would spend the night

18 right there. I didn't normally spend every night in that room. I didn't

19 normally sleep there every night. I would normally sleep in the room

20 marked as number 13, which is in the other house, the large house.

21 Q. Can you please draw a line leading from number 13 to the place

22 where you slept and put a number 2 there.

23 A. The bed is on the right-hand side.

24 Q. Can you please draw a line and put a number 2 there outside the

25 sketch itself so we can follow.

Page 12630

1 A. This is the place where I usually slept, not every night, but I

2 never held a single meeting in this room, nor did I draw up any plans in

3 this room, simply because there was sometimes quite a lot of people inside

4 this house and I didn't want them to be privy to what I was doing. All my

5 work was done in the room I marked as number 5.

6 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us where is it Stanko Vujanovic's father

7 was sleeping throughout this time that you spent at there house?

8 A. When I first came to the house, which was sometime on or about the

9 10th of October, the only person staying in the house was Stanko

10 Vujanovic's wife, Nada Kalaba. If you look at the ground floor, there is

11 the number 10 right there which I used to mark the stairs leading up to

12 the first floor. Throughout our time in the house, she slept in one of

13 the rooms in the first floor. One thing I must say is I never even went

14 up. I just didn't want to know what there was upstairs.

15 Q. Then when was Stanko Vujanovic's father sleeping there?

16 A. It was just before the combat operations drew to a close. Stanko

17 Vujanovic's father came to the house, and he would also sleep in a first

18 floor room; I'm not sure which one.

19 Q. All right. Thank you. Who else was sleeping in that house, the

20 house that we described as the observation post?

21 A. In this house the room that I marked as number 11 was a small

22 kitchen with a dining area. To the left was the bathroom with a toilet.

23 In this room that is marked number 13, I did not draw yet another bed

24 which was right here, because I omitted to do that at the time. (redacted)

25 (redacted), who was a sergeant in my company, slept on that bed; and every

Page 12631

1 night when we went to bed, this table which is in the middle of the room

2 is something that we moved to the side and on the floor next to these

3 shelves, as I marked them, on blankets, on mattresses, on pillows, three

4 soldiers from my company slept.

5 Q. What was the name of -- what were the names of these soldiers?

6 A. One of these three soldiers was Spasoje Petkovic; the second

7 soldier was a Muslim, and his name was Suad Miljkovic; and the third

8 soldier, I cannot remember his name right at this moment, but I know that

9 it wasn't Elvir Masic. I know that it wasn't Dragan Vidacek. But right

10 now I simply cannot remember the name.

11 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to have

12 this admitted into evidence, please, this document.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 783, Your Honour.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. We've given quite a bit of our attention to this. We have to try

17 to be as brief as possible. We need this sketch as part of our evidence

18 because we heard some witnesses refer to these rooms and we can compare

19 this description to the descriptions they gave.

20 What about the members of the Territorial Defence and of the Leva

21 Supoderica Detachment, where were they when there was no fighting? Where

22 were they staying?

23 A. The members of the TO of Petrova Gora were staying throughout the

24 Petrova Gora neighbourhood. Every one of them stayed at their own homes,

25 I think -- or rather, in the houses where those who moved into the Petrova

Page 12632

1 Gora neighbourhood moved into because of the presence of the paramilitary

2 forces.

3 Q. All right.

4 A. Sorry, the members of the Leva Supoderica Detachment were grouped

5 around their command post, in several houses, so they were grouped in Nova

6 Street, in a few houses around the command post where Milan Lancuzanin,

7 nicknamed Kameni, was all the time.

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. And where was this command post or the

9 headquarters of Petrova Gora, and where was the Leva Supoderica

10 headquarters at the time?

11 A. As we've heard so far, at the command post of the commander of the

12 1st Assault Detachment, there was the command post of the commander of the

13 Territorial Defence Staff, Dusan Jaksic, captain first class, that is. As

14 I've already said, the rear command post in Petrova Gora was in the house

15 of Captain Antic.

16 Q. Sorry, is that a captain of the regular army or a reservist?

17 A. Captain Antic was a reserve officer who was within the Territorial

18 Defence.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. And at that same command post, the rear command post, Miroljub

21 Vujovic had his own post from which he took action and followed the orders

22 that he had been issued.

23 Q. So that is the command post of the Petrova Gora Detachment; is

24 that right?

25 A. I never found out. I just know that at that place, this

Page 12633

1 Captain Antic was rather at this place and once together with Miroljub

2 Vujovic I went to this house; and together with them, I discussed certain

3 matters and it was precisely at that place.

4 Q. All right. As far as Leva Supoderica is concerned, you explained

5 where their command post is. My specific question is as follows, and let

6 us be very specific in the future. To the best of your knowledge, were

7 Miroljub Vujovic, Milan Lancuzanin -- rather, did they go to see

8 Major Tesic; and if so, why?

9 A. I claim with responsibility that Milan Lancuzanin and

10 Miroljub Vujovic did not come at the same time for briefings together with

11 company commanders belonging to the 1st Battalion. I know that they,

12 either in accordance with some plan of their own or at the invitation of

13 Captain Jaksic or Major Tesic, they did go to that place because it was no

14 secret that they were going there. But I know -- or at least that's the

15 way I remember it, I do not remember either one of them being there

16 together with us so that they could be issued the kind of orders that we

17 were being issued.

18 Q. All right. I think that's clear now. My next question is, and I

19 hope that you will explain this briefly: Who came to your axis attack

20 from the superior command? Do you remember any such thing? And if you do

21 remember, tell us about it briefly.

22 A. Yes. I remember that too. Major Borivoj Tesic, my battalion

23 commander, came to see my unit up to the 10th of November on one occasion,

24 and that was on the 2nd of November when we went together to the street of

25 Vasilija Gacesa for command reconnaissance before the attack on the

Page 12634

1 neighbourhood called Seste Proleterske Divizije.

2 Q. What about after that?

3 A. After that, Major Tesic, after Milovo Brdo fell - and that was on

4 the 10th of November - was at Milovo Brdo every day, and he worked in

5 accordance with his plan. And I was not aware of all the details, where

6 he went and -- but practically every day I saw him at Milovo Brdo.

7 Q. All right. Did you know who General Adzic was at that time?

8 A. I did know, most certainly. He was the chief of the General Staff

9 of the then-Yugoslav People's Army.

10 Q. All right. Did he ever come to the axis of your action, and did

11 he ever visit the soldiers there?

12 A. I did hear that he came, but I did not see him, and I did not have

13 any knowledge about him being supposed to come. That is to say that at

14 the moment when he was at my axis of action, I did not know that he was

15 there, but later on, from Major Tesic, I heard that he was there together

16 with Major Tesic and that Major Tesic showed him part of the territory

17 where the 1st Motorised Battalion was staying and where it was conducting

18 operations.

19 Q. Thank you. Bearing in mind that he knew -- that one knows one's

20 soldier, is it possible that your soldier Elvir Masic could have been

21 assigned to General Adzic's security detail when he came to visit Vukovar

22 at that particular axis, and is that possible at all for someone from a

23 platoon of your company to provide security for the chief of General

24 Staff? Are you aware of any such thing, and could such a soldier have

25 such an opportunity?

Page 12635

1 A. That is nonsense, and that is my most profound belief, because the

2 chief of General Staff has his own personal security, consisting of

3 professional officers so he did not require any supplementary security,

4 particularly not from the soldier that you just referred to.

5 Q. Thank you. Would you like to have a bit of water?

6 A. I'm fine. Everything is fine.

7 Q. Could you tell us what your attitude was towards

8 Major Sljivancanin at the time?

9 A. Major Sljivancanin was the chief of security of the

10 Guards Motorised Brigade. He was an officer from the superior command,

11 and as such, I had an appropriate attitude towards him -- not only towards

12 him but towards all officers who came from the superior command. After

13 all, that is the attitude that I had towards my own commander, his deputy,

14 and particularly towards all members of the staff of the command of the

15 Guards Motorised Brigade. Major Sljivancanin came to my axis of action on

16 several occasions, expressing his interest about the current situation

17 that the unit was in, expressing his interest in the soldiers who were

18 taken prisoner on the first day in the 1st Assault Detachment but not my

19 axis, but he was looking for information.

20 Q. Are you referring to JNA soldiers? Sorry to interrupt.

21 A. Yes, JNA soldiers, yes. He was seeking information from us -- or

22 rather, from me, as to what my knowledge was about the weapons that the

23 other side had, possible prisoners, and I also have to note the

24 following. On those occasions when he came to visit, he would always

25 bring something to the soldiers. On one occasion, it was fruit juice, and

Page 12636

1 several times it was cigarettes that were important, especially for those

2 who were smokers.

3 Q. All right. What else can you say about him except for these few

4 meetings?

5 A. I can say -- I wish to say that I recall very well the moment when

6 he came for the first time. That was when my unit was crossing the street

7 of Otokar Kersovani. That was on the 21st of October, and when we were

8 entering part of Cvetno Naselje. On that occasion, Major Sljivancanin

9 came and brought a few packages of cans with fruit juice, and this fruit

10 juice was distributed to all the soldiers in the area. The next time

11 Major Sljivancanin came when the assault group liberated the neighbourhood

12 of Seste Proleterske Divizije. I remember that that was on the 4th of

13 November because on that day the Guards Brigade celebrated because that

14 was marked as the day of the guards corps.

15 The next time Major Sljivancanin came was when we entered the

16 Bosko Buha neighbourhood, and I remember that it could have been the 8th

17 or the 9th of November. We were together in a garage that was in the

18 basement of a house, and from that garage Major Sljivancanin, through

19 communications equipment, communicated with Jastreb.

20 Q. All right. Specifically, did he ever issue any orders to you?

21 Did he issue any commands to you? Did he take part in any action planning

22 together with you, or was that not the case?

23 A. At that time, Major Sljivancanin, as an officer from the superior

24 command, had the right to come to any unit, including my own, to seek

25 information about the details that I talked about a few minutes ago. But

Page 12637

1 I'm saying this with full responsibility, with the greatest

2 responsibility, he never tried to interfere in the existing system of

3 command and control, or did he ever issue me a single task or assignment,

4 regardless of whether it had to do with combat or non-combat.

5 Q. Very well. Thank you.

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like

7 Exhibit 156 to be placed on the screen.

8 Q. Mr. Radic, it is a map on which I would like you to mark your

9 participation in the combat depending on the time and place of combat, and

10 we will go through this in detail so that we can compare that with various

11 witness testimony. Is this sufficient or should we blow it up?

12 A. Could you please blow it up a bit?

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we also give a felt-tip pen to

14 the witness so that he can mark various things on the map.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you zoom in on the central

16 part?

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Is it sufficient now?

19 A. A bit more, please. A bit more.

20 Q. Is this sufficient?

21 A. Just so that I could be more precise, could you please zoom in

22 some more?

23 Q. I believe this will do.

24 A. Thank you.

25 Q. Let us have the pen now. See what the times and place of action

Page 12638

1 were, as regards your tasks.

2 A. I will mark off the basic elements so that it is clear to everyone

3 where things are on the map. I will use the number 1 to mark the command

4 post of the 1st Assault Detachment; it was in Svetozara Markovica Street.

5 Q. When you say the number 1, are you trying to say that it actually

6 marks the spot or can you place an arrow which points to the circle? No,

7 the other way, the other way.

8 A. I marked it with a dot and a circle.

9 Q. Very well. And then the arrow goes towards the number 1?

10 A. Nova Ulica as marked on the map is incorrect because I will point

11 exactly where Nova Ulica is, and there is where the observation post was,

12 where I was, this being the house with the number 81, Stanko Vujanovic's

13 father's house.

14 Q. Can you place the number 2 somewhere where the Danube is?

15 A. Yes, very well. The street where this dot is is exactly Nova

16 Ulica, Nova Street, whereas the street shown on this map is another

17 street, Vrgoseva [phoen] Street. And immediately close by is Leva

18 Supoderica, where Milan Lancuzanin, a.k.a. Kameni's, house was and I will

19 mark that place with a number 3.

20 Q. As regards the number 1, could you please erase the arrow next to

21 it and put an arrow next to the dot indicating the exact spot? Put all

22 the arrows there so that we avoid any confusion. The arrows should be

23 pointing to the exact locations marked by numbers. Let us move on.

24 A. For better visibility and so that it would be clear to everyone in

25 the courtroom, could you give me another map, an unmarked one, where I

Page 12639

1 could mark the direction of operations of my company and the times?

2 Q. Very well.

3 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

4 this as an exhibit.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 784, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Mr. Borovic, this would be a good time for

8 the break. We could resume at five minutes to 6.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Therefore, Mr. Radic, with the assistance of the usher, who will

14 yet again give you the pen, could you please mark on this Exhibit

15 Number 156 the places of action and the directions, as we mentioned before

16 the break?

17 A. The area or the spot that I will mark with the number 1 is the

18 staging area or the waiting sector from which my unit began with its

19 combat operations. This is the neighbourhood of Petrova Gora, and I will

20 mark it here with the number 1.

21 Q. Could you please put the arrow at the place where the staging area

22 is?

23 A. As I've already said, our unit was issued with two combat tasks.

24 The first one was to start from the direction of the neighbourhood of

25 Petrova Gora and along Nova Street and to carry out an attack along the

Page 12640

1 axis of Petrova Naselje, then Leva Supoderica neighbourhood, and then the

2 neighbourhood of Seste Proleterske Divizije in two stages. In the first

3 stage, the attack commenced on the 2nd of October, and I will use this pen

4 to mark off the right boundary, this being Nova Street. Therefore, on the

5 2nd of October of 1991, the attack commenced. In the first stage, my unit

6 was to come as far as Bogdanovacki Put.

7 Q. Did you just put the Roman numeral one there?

8 A. Yes, to state that this was stage 1. In stage 2, my unit was to

9 liberate the neighbourhood of Seste Proleterske Divizije, which goes up to

10 here, and I will put the Roman numeral 2 there.

11 The first phase was completed on the 3rd of November. I will put

12 the date here. And the second phase was completed on the 4th of November.

13 That was our first combat assignment.

14 The second one I received after having liberated the neighbourhood

15 of Seste Proleterske Divizije, and the second task was also divided into

16 two stages.

17 Q. Could you mark that with stage 3, for clarification?

18 A. Yes. I just wanted to add something. I wanted to put an arrow

19 here in stage 1 so as to mark the direction of the attack of my company.

20 In the next phase, our task was to carry out an attack along the axis of

21 the neighbourhood of Seste Proleterske Divizije, the settlement of

22 Bosko Buha, and the settlement of Milovo Brdo. In that third phase, so to

23 say, we were to come as far as the Bosko Buha settlement. That was stage

24 3, and I'm putting the Roman numeral 3 here. The third phase was

25 completed on or until the 9th of November. Milovo Brdo was taken - I will

Page 12641

1 put the number 4 here - it was taken on the 10th of November, 1991.

2 Q. Could you please put an arrow and the number 2 where you've marked

3 the third and the fourth phase of operations.

4 A. Yes, I will do this the following way. I will mark this as the

5 second assignment. Therefore, I put the number 2 here as the second

6 assignment, and this is the assignment number 1. I will put it in a

7 circle. I hope it is clear.

8 Q. Since you marked Petrova Gora with a number 1, would you then

9 change that number into something else or maybe put the letter A so that

10 we know this is Petrova Gora.

11 A. I apologise. I will try to erase this and I will mark it in a

12 different way so that -- so that it is not a number. Therefore, we have

13 the letter A for the neighbourhood of Petrova Gora.

14 Q. And you also changed the number 1 that you had put there

15 previously?

16 A. Yes, precisely.

17 Q. If this is it, I would like to have this preserved and I would

18 like to tender this as an exhibit.

19 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 785, Your Honours.

21 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Radic, we have quite a graphic view of your direction of

23 attack. My question is: What was the last time you coordinated the work

24 of the assault group? What was the last time you coordinated its work?

25 A. As I've said today already, the assault group, which was

Page 12642

1 established along my axis, was temporary. At the moment the Milovo Brdo

2 neighbourhood was liberated, I set about implementing my second combat

3 assignment. After that day, I did not receive any task by the battalion

4 commander, by anyone else - and here I have in mind his deputy in

5 particular. I did not receive any other combat tasks which would involve

6 coordination, command, or control of, be it regular or temporary

7 formation, which means that on the 10th of November, I no longer commanded

8 the assault group which was established along my axis.

9 Q. When you say "commanded," you mean coordinate, as you had

10 described?

11 A. I've described how I did that.

12 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, you could have asked the witness to

14 clarify whether he meant commanded, but you shouldn't have given him the

15 other word.

16 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was completely

17 unintentional; but if I may correct myself, I will do the following way.

18 Q. Mr. Radic, you said "commanded" the assault group; what does that

19 mean?

20 A. I wanted to say this: My company, and I as the commander of the

21 3rd Company, were tasked with an axis of operations as part of the

22 1st Assault Detachment. As the most senior officer on that axis, I held

23 both a moral obligation and an obligation as a human being to put to work

24 all of my experience and knowledge in order to implement the task issued,

25 while at the same time trying to save lives of as many people as

Page 12643

1 possible. If I said I commanded the assault group, what I meant was that

2 I coordinated the tasks of the assault group and the activities of the

3 support units and the 3rd Motorised Brigade [as interpreted] as best I

4 could and knew how, but all that stopped on the 10th of October [as

5 interpreted] when I completed my second combat assignment.

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] There is a mistake in the

7 transcript. It says "the 3rd Motorised Brigade"; instead it should have

8 been the "3rd Motorised Company."

9 Q. Very well. What did the members of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Company

10 do once the Milovo Brdo neighbourhood was liberated, and what were the

11 tasks of the 1st Assault Detachment together with its commander,

12 Borivoj Tesic?

13 A. We've had opportunity to hear a part of the story --

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me. There is something else

15 that needs to be corrected in the transcript. It says that the assignment

16 was carried out on the "10th of October," and it should be the "10th of

17 November."

18 Q. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Please go ahead.

21 A. During one of the briefings, when Milovo Brdo had been taken, the

22 battalion commander, Borivoj Tesic, told us that all the Leva Supoderica

23 TO members, as well as all the volunteers which were part of the two

24 formations, were tasked with moving to another axis. The way I understood

25 that, the other axis was the axis of the 2nd Assault Detachment, because

Page 12644

1 they were not gaining any ground. Therefore, the Leva Supoderica TO

2 members were to assist this second assault detachment in order for them to

3 meet the goals of their combat assignment.

4 Q. Do you know on what day Vukovar was liberated?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When was it?

7 A. Vukovar was liberated on the 18th of November, 1991.

8 Q. Between the liberation of Milovo Brdo on the 10th of November and

9 up until the 18th of November, 1991, your company was where and what were

10 you doing during that time?

11 A. During that time, the 3rd Motorised Company was in the area of the

12 neighbourhood of Bosko Buha and Milovo Brdo. If you deem it important, I

13 can mark off that area where my company was just so that it would be clear

14 to everyone in the courtroom.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Since we have Exhibit 156 on the

16 screen already, perhaps the accused, as a witness, could indicate where

17 the second combat assignment ended.

18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. What is the number 1?

21 A. The number 1 is the neighbourhood of Bosko Buha. The number 2 is

22 the neighbourhood of Milovo Brdo. The neighbourhoods of Bosko Buha and

23 Milovo Brdo are actually two small neighbourhoods with a relatively small

24 number of private homes. In that area the soldiers from my company,

25 between the 10th of November and the 19th of November provided security of

Page 12645

1 those homes in the two neighbourhoods.

2 Q. Can you put the number 3 next to the final position where the JNA

3 units were once Vukovar was liberated, and this place should also include

4 the volunteers and TO members. What was the final goal once Vukovar was

5 liberated?

6 A. I put the number 2 next to the Milovo Brdo neighbourhood, and from

7 that spot, in cooperation with the TO, various JNA units had to go as far

8 as the Danube Hotel, and I will put the number 3 there.

9 Q. As regards spots marked with numbers 1 and 2, between the 10th of

10 November up until the liberation of Vukovar, were you engaged in any

11 actions, did you carry out operations along an axis, or did you simply

12 stay in this area?

13 A. I've already said once that I completed my second combat

14 assignment at the spot marked with the number 2, this being Milovo Brdo.

15 After that, Major Borivoj Tesic, who commanded our battalion and our

16 assault detachment and whom I could see daily at Milovo Brdo, took over

17 command personally, and he personally controlled all actions and

18 operations. This means that I was no longer engaged in any planning,

19 commanding or controlling any unit between Milovo Brdo and the Danube

20 Hotel.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this map as

23 an exhibit.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 786, Your Honour.

Page 12646

1 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. Can you describe the role and tasks of your company as of the

3 moment you found out that combat or combat operations had ceased, and that

4 was after the 18th of November.

5 A. As I've said already, since my company was in the neighbourhoods

6 of Bosko Buha and Milovo Brdo, on the 18th of November I was still with my

7 company. I think it was sometime in the afternoon or in the early

8 afternoon, when we learned by radio that Vukovar had finally been

9 liberated and that the other side had surrendered. After that, by radio

10 communication, the battalion commander ordered all company commanders to

11 go from Negoslavci, where our vehicles were, to come to the town with all

12 the trucks so that we could take care of all the people who were up until

13 that moment in various shelters, basements, and so on and so forth, so

14 that they could be transported from the centre of town, from the area

15 where the bridges at River Vuka were, to Velepromet.

16 In order to be able to assist the population, the commander of the

17 anti-armour company, Captain Kopcic, Sladjan, was assigned that task. On

18 that occasion, I was extremely surprised by the sheer number of people who

19 came out of hiding and came to the area close to river Vuka and to the

20 centre of town, around the Danube Hotel and Radnicki Dom. I never

21 expected or presumed that there were so many people in Vukovar still;

22 namely, when we received our combat assignments and tasks by our battalion

23 commander, we were not told that there were so many people still in

24 Vukovar. I thought that most of the population of Vukovar had left the

25 town before the combat operations. As I said, I was very much surprised

Page 12647

1 when I saw how many people there were after all.

2 Q. Let me just interrupt you briefly. Throughout the combat

3 operations, did you ever meet any civilians or were you always up against

4 members of paramilitary units?

5 A. I can tell you with sure and certain knowledge that on that first

6 mission between Petrova Gora and the Seste Proleterske Divizije

7 neighbourhood, I never came across a single civilian. When we reached the

8 Bosko Buha neighbourhood, I know that three persons were found who at the

9 time were suspected of having fought with the enemy. These persons were

10 sent to the battalion command as prisoners. I assume the battalion

11 command then sent them off to Negoslavci. I don't know what became of

12 them later, but I do know that this group of three included two senior

13 citizens and one who was rather young. I think the group also included a

14 lady. I never encountered any other civilians along any of my axes of

15 operations, nor had I ever heard of any being in the area. The more I was

16 surprised when I saw all the people coming out on the 18th of November.

17 Q. Fine. Where were you on the next day, the 19th of November, 1991,

18 as far as you remember, and you have been reminded throughout this trial?

19 Can you please tell us? It is, after all, a very important date for your

20 position in this trial.

21 A. On the morning of the 19th of November, I was with Second

22 Lieutenant Hadzic and the other commanders from the 1st Battalion at

23 Milovo Brdo. On that day, there were no combat operations and we all knew

24 the war was over. I can't say specifically at what time, but it was

25 around noon that Second Lieutenant Hadzic came to tell me that Major Tesic

Page 12648

1 was asking to talk to me over a Motorola, over a radio. I called him

2 back, and he ordered that I take a group of 20 soldiers and go to the

3 hospital area which was about a kilometre away from the direction of

4 Boso -- Borovo Naselje from the bridges over the river Vuka.

5 I forwarded this order to -- Second Lieutenant Hadzic told him to

6 gather the soldiers, after which we took several cars which had up to this

7 point been used for both ferrying the wounded and injured, and drove over

8 the bridge on the left-hand side as far as the hospital entrance. I can't

9 remember the name of the street down which we drove to get there. We

10 reached the hospital entrance, having entered the compound -- not the main

11 gate, it was the auxiliary gate that we used and the street facing the

12 gate is called Gunduliceva Street. It was virtually at the same time that

13 we drove up to this entrance, and I was coming closer with my soldiers

14 towards the back entrance that I saw Major Tesic approach from the

15 opposite side; and he was accompanied by a lieutenant whom I didn't know

16 at the time. They had several soldiers with them.

17 We noticed each other arrive mutually and quite literally we met

18 at the auxiliary entrance to the hospital, the one we used to describe

19 throughout this trial as the emergency exit -- or rather, the emergency

20 ward door.

21 Q. Did you do anything with your soldiers in terms of securing the

22 place?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What exactly did you do? Where did you set up your security

25 exactly in or around the hospital, and who did you see in the process?

Page 12649

1 A. When Major Tesic and I met up at the auxiliary entrance to the

2 hospital building, soon after, several minutes after, Captain Sasa

3 Bojkovski arrived followed by several soldiers. In a way, because this

4 was after all the first time we penetrated so deeply into an area that we

5 had never trodden before, I was happy to see them all gathered in one

6 spot. So in a way, I felt the safer for it.

7 At this point, Major Tesic was standing at the hospital entrance,

8 and he asked one of the hospital staff who appeared at the door to speak

9 to Mrs. Vesna Bosanac. She soon turned up. Major Tesic introduced

10 himself and said that he had been given the assignment of picking her up

11 and going to the command post of the Guards Brigade so that the commander,

12 Colonel Mrksic, could speak to her. As I knew at the time already what my

13 own assignment was, at one point I turned to face Second Lieutenant Hadzic

14 in order to carry out an assignment received previously from Major Tesic.

15 At this point, Major Tesic and several other persons who were standing

16 around him entered the hospital. I remained outside for several minutes

17 to talk to Second Lieutenant Hadzic to see what the best way was to secure

18 the hospital building. I told him that two soldiers should be placed at

19 every entrance to the hospital to make sure that no one was able to access

20 the hospital from outside and that no one would be allowed to leave

21 without approval.

22 Q. All right. Did you enter the hospital at any point in time for

23 any length of time?

24 A. I did. Having imparted these brief instructions to Second

25 Lieutenant Hadzic, I followed Major Tesic and Captain Bojkovski on their

Page 12650

1 way in. I went to the basement where there were some rooms and a large

2 crowd. To be quite honest, it was dark inside, so probably out of an

3 abundance of caution I did not opt to go all the way in. But there was a

4 room on the left in that corridor where I saw Major Tesic and

5 Captain Bojkovski talking to someone. I approached them and realised that

6 Sergeant Jovic was there, too, and we knew that he had been arrested the

7 day the combat operations began.

8 Q. Did you take Sergeant Jovic away from the hospital compound or did

9 someone else do that? Did you personally take part in the taking away

10 from the hospital compound of Sergeant Jovic and this other soldier, or

11 was this done by someone else?

12 A. In addition to Jovic, there were two other soldiers there, two

13 reservists from our Guards Brigade. I did not personally take him away,

14 but I did speak to Sergeant Jovic; and I spent several minutes in his

15 company right there in that room, in which he was with those two soldiers.

16 Q. Fair enough. Thank you.

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we need the 65 ter

18 list now. I would like to show you some footage. The video is marked

19 V000-0625-1-A, 1 hour, 16 minutes, 28 seconds, and then running all the

20 way to 1 hour, 18 minutes, and 29 seconds. That is a very short portion,

21 about two minutes long, and I don't think that should take up too much

22 time.

23 Q. Mr. Radic, can you see the video?

24 A. Yes.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 12651

1 MR. BOROVIC: Stop.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Who is in this video? Do you see a military

3 uniform with a helmet there?

4 A. That's Major Borivoj Tesic.

5 Q. To his right?

6 A. A young man who he is caressing with his left hand so to speak.

7 That's -- to my right, that's Sergeant Jovic. The civilian on the left is

8 not someone I know. Standing behind them is a man with a pipe. And this

9 is a Politika journalist; his name is Tomislav Peternek.

10 Q. Thank you. Let's move on.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. BOROVIC: Stop.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Is this Sergeant Jovic, the man in the middle?

14 A. Yes. He's wearing a blue jacket. The person wearing a police

15 uniform and a helmet on the left is not someone that I can actually

16 identify. To Jovic's right is a person wearing a leather jacket and a

17 green beret on his head. This is an officer from the same unit as

18 Sergeant Jovic which is LSARD of the PVO. The name is Petar Devic.

19 Q. Thank you. Can you perhaps notice that this person you just

20 described has a sparse moustache, or do you think we should let the tape

21 run on?

22 A. Can we move on, please.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we please replay the

25 video briefly? There is one particular question that I have.

Page 12652

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Observe closely, please. Can you see yourself anywhere in this

4 footage?

5 [Videotape played]

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] All right. I think this is

7 sufficient.

8 Q. So first of all my question was: This soldier wearing a green

9 beret and a leather jacket taking Sergeant Jovic away, he was sporting a

10 sparse moustache, wasn't he?

11 A. Yes, indeed, I did notice that.

12 Q. Did you at any point in time see the soldiers being taken away

13 from the hospital taken to ...

14 A. No, I am nowhere to be seen in this footage.

15 Q. And were you actually there at the time?

16 A. When Sergeant Jovic was leaving, I was not present.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I seek that this footage be tendered

19 into evidence, Your Honour. It had been shown before, but it wasn't

20 tendered at the time.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: With Exhibit Number 787, Your Honours.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Radic, having lingered briefly at the hospital on the 19th of

25 November, what did you do next? Where did you go? And what became of the

Page 12653

1 members of your unit, those who remained behind to secure the hospital,

2 how long did they stay there for?

3 A. At one point, Major Borivoj Tesic left with Mrs. Vesna Bosanac; I

4 assume they went to Negoslavci. I stayed within the hospital compound,

5 with Captain Sasa Bojkovski. The two of us walked around the hospital

6 compound. Within minutes we each found two pistols that had been simply

7 discarded. Based on the appearance of these pistols, since they weren't

8 rusty or anything, there wasn't even dust on them, I inferred that the

9 pistols had been discarded a short time before. Also, walking around the

10 compound, near the gate that I took with the soldiers on my way in, there

11 was a group of containers, beside which there were black bags or sacks

12 containing different kinds of equipment previously used by the enemy, such

13 as uniforms, military boots, military rucksacks, and so on and so forth.

14 Soon after, several soldiers came to see me who had also found long-barrel

15 weapons, meaning rifles, near the places where they stood guard.

16 Q. Do you remember the specific soldiers from your company who drew

17 your attention to that?

18 A. No, their names escape me.

19 Q. Fair enough. Thank you. Having left the hospital compound, where

20 did you go next? Did you first wait to see how long you would be expected

21 to provide security for the external perimeter of the hospital?

22 A. I don't remember the exact time that Major Tesic returned to the

23 compound. What I do know is he did come back at one point. As far as I

24 remember, I had already left the hospital compound before he returned,

25 leaving Second Lieutenant Hadzic to wait for the arrival of a military

Page 12654

1 police unit commanded by Captain Paunovic as battalion commander -- or

2 rather, one of the companies from his battalion, so that they would then

3 take over from my company in terms of securing the hospital building. I

4 know this all happened in a quick succession. I think it didn't take more

5 than several hours, but I wasn't there for the actual handover and I

6 wasn't physically present at the hospital at the time this occurred. One

7 thing I do remember is I took the same way back that I had come. I went

8 back to the area in which I had previously been staying, that means back

9 to Nova Street.

10 Q. Thank you. Did you stop by to see anyone else from a different

11 company on that day? Did you meet any soldiers or officers?

12 A. I can't quite remember, but there is one thing I wish to say.

13 After the liberation, that is on the 18th, since we were officers of the

14 Guards Brigade, we all knew each other from our previous lives in the

15 barracks. I thought it was the natural thing to do, to try and find out

16 what had become of the rest of my friends and colleagues from the

17 Guards Brigade. I remember meeting quite many of them in the downtown

18 area, but I don't remember exactly when or who I spoke to.

19 Q. Do you remember where Zoran Zirojevic was on the 19th of November,

20 the commander of one of the companies within your battalion?

21 A. Yes. I know that together with me, Captain Sasa Bojkovski was at

22 the hospital too. As far as I can remember, Captain Zoran Zirojevic was

23 given a task by the battalion commander to clean up the mess at the

24 Danube Hotel so that on the following day some press conference would be

25 held at that hotel. I think that I stopped by then, but I cannot claim

Page 12655

1 that that was on the 19th.

2 Q. Do you remember where you were on the evening of the 19th, that is

3 one day after the liberation of Vukovar?

4 A. Yes. On the 19th, in the evening, I remember that I got a new

5 camouflage uniform, which at that time was not part of the regular

6 equipment of infantry units; it was part of the equipment of military

7 police units. I remember that on that evening, I was in the house where I

8 had been staying beforehand too, that is to say Nova Number 81, and that I

9 took a bath that evening, changed my uniform. And after a great deal of

10 time, I gave myself the possibility to get a bit of rest, too.

11 Q. Thank you. If I were to take you back to the 20th of November,

12 1991, that is to say the following day, that's a date that you heard

13 several times here in court, can you remember where you were, what you

14 were doing, where your company was?

15 A. I wish to say that on the 19th, after the task of securing the

16 hospital was accomplished, Lieutenant Hadzic carried out the handover of

17 this security with one of the companies of the military police, which was

18 commanded by Captain Milivoje Simic. During the course of that day --

19 Q. Sorry, the transcript did not include this part about the

20 uniform. My colleague is telling me that the witness said that he got

21 that uniform from an officer in his company. So the question is: From

22 whom did you get that uniform on the evening of the 19th?

23 A. On the evening of the 19th, I got the uniform from

24 (redacted), an officer in my company.

25 Q. Thank you. Please proceed.

Page 12656

1 A. After returning to the area where I was staying before, too, I do

2 not remember how this happened, possibly I was even at the battalion

3 command too, or perhaps this was conveyed to me via radio communications,

4 I was informed that the unit, after accomplishing its task, is to gather

5 in a smaller area so that we would have control over the soldiers from the

6 company in terms of discipline and in terms of security, because the

7 question of security was accentuated by the battalion commander. So this

8 was after the combat operations so that nothing would happen to anyone.

9 Q. Thank you. You will continue, but I have a question. On that

10 day, were you near the area where the hospital is, where the hospital

11 compound is, and the like? So then when you finish your next question has

12 to do with the hospital.

13 A. Since I talked about the period of the 19th, after the return from

14 the hospital, I did not actually answer your previous question. What I'm

15 trying to say is that as soon as the unit got back from the hospital

16 compound, that is to say part of the unit, I issued an order to Hadzic to

17 gather all the soldiers together in a small street that was parallel to

18 Radnicka Street because I cannot remember what the name of that street is

19 right now. But I know that all soldiers who had not been wounded and who

20 had not left the unit for other reasons were concentrated in a few houses

21 that were in the immediate vicinity of the house where I was. On the 20th

22 of October --

23 Q. November.

24 A. I'm sorry, November. On the 20th of November, in the morning when

25 I got up, together with Second Lieutenant Hadzic, I went to see these

Page 12657

1 soldiers; and then after that, the two of us went to the centre of town.

2 Before I go on telling you about what we did there, I wish to say that the

3 soldiers from the entire battalion had the task of touring all the areas,

4 all the axes of action where we had been staying, and where we were

5 engaged in combat action, in order to collect all combat and non-combat

6 equipment that we had been using and which had possibly been discarded for

7 a variety of reasons. I personally issued that order to all squad leaders

8 and their duty was to hand over this collected equipment to the company

9 station, to (redacted), an officer within my company.

10 Q. All right. And then you went with Hadzic to the centre of town,

11 and then where did you proceed from there?

12 A. All of us felt the need to learn of certain information as to what

13 was going on in different axes, who survived the war, who was wounded,

14 what was going on further. We got this information through conversations

15 with officers from the Guards Brigade. I remember that on that day, the

16 20th, Second Lieutenant Hadzic and I went to the centre and we stopped at

17 the Danube Hotel; and then from the Danube Hotel, we went along a road

18 that I knew, that is to say through the bridge on the left to the

19 hospital. I had no idea what was going on in that hospital. At the

20 moment when we arrived there, I saw a group of civilians who were moving

21 towards the main gate. For the most part, these were women and children,

22 and I was informed by those who were present that it was their own choice

23 to leave, going either to Croatia or to Serbia.

24 Q. At that time, did you go into the hospital or not?

25 A. I claim with the greatest responsibility that I did not enter the

Page 12658

1 hospital at all. I didn't take a single step there.

2 Q. And in the compound, did you come across any of your soldiers or

3 commanders?

4 A. I claim with the greatest of responsibility that at that moment

5 none of my soldiers were present, either in the hospital or in the

6 compound around the hospital. I then saw many officers from the

7 Guards Brigade. Among them I saw my commander, Major Tesic. As far as I

8 can remember, I saw Colonel Pavkovic. As far as I can remember, I saw

9 quite a few officers from the military police, but now I cannot give their

10 names except for the names of the persons I've mentioned so far.

11 Q. Very well. How much time did you spend in the hospital compound,

12 approximately that time; and where did you go after that?

13 A. In the hospital compound, since I believed that something was

14 going on there, something that I was not particularly interested in, I

15 again took the same path towards the centre of town. And I want to say

16 that at that moment, Second Lieutenant Hadzic and I went our separate ways

17 because he stayed back talking to someone, whereas I set out towards the

18 centre of town -- or rather, the Danube Hotel. I remember very well that

19 as I was moving that way, towards the centre of town, at one point I

20 noticed a group of people who were coming from the direction of the Vupik

21 cellar. Allegedly, they had seen someone in that cellar. Out of sheer

22 curiosity, I came to that cellar, and for the first time in my life I saw

23 what a wine cellar looked like.

24 Q. Sorry, before you go on, I asked you something that is of interest

25 to the Prosecution and especially to the Trial Chamber: How much time did

Page 12659

1 you spend in the hospital compound? You didn't answer me.

2 A. I am sorry. I spent a very short period of time in the hospital

3 compound. If I have to say how long it was, it was up to half an hour at

4 the most. I believe it was even less.

5 Q. All right. After the Vupik cellar, where did you go?

6 A. I would just wish to add something to that question of yours.

7 Q. Please go ahead.

8 A. It was the first time I walked into that cellar and it was the

9 first time that I saw the place where people were staying as they used

10 that cellar as a shelter. In addition to these enormous barrels that were

11 there of thousands of litres of wine that were in the central part of the

12 cellar, on the left and on the right side, there were some make-shift

13 things. I assume that civilians had been sleeping there, so there were

14 mattresses there, blankets, and so on. I went through part of that

15 cellar. But quite honestly, for safety and security reasons, I did not

16 want to go throughout the cellar. I got out of it and from there I went

17 to the Danube Hotel.

18 Q. Thank you. Two brief questions because we have to go, and we will

19 complete your examination for today. On the 19th of November, were you at

20 the briefing at the command post, with Borivoj Tesic?

21 A. Like every evening, on that day too we had briefing with our

22 commander.

23 Q. What about the 20th of November?

24 A. Yes. We did on the 20th of November, too; as I said, like every

25 evening. In the period up to the combat actions and after that, the

Page 12660

1 objective of these briefings was to inform the battalion command about

2 what had been completed, in terms of the previously set tasks. On that

3 20th of November, at the battalion commander's command post, we were given

4 the tasks that I had been talking about a few moments ago, that is to say

5 we were given clearer instructions in terms of getting the soldiers

6 together, getting materiel and technical equipment together. And we were

7 also given the task of getting the soldiers back in shape so that they

8 could look like proper soldiers, shaven, clean, because during the combat

9 operations, we didn't have the right hygienic conditions. We could not

10 get haircuts, shaves, and so on.

11 Q. All right. So we have reached the 20th of November, the

12 afternoon -- or rather, evening.

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I cannot deal with

14 that in haste. I think that I will need about another half session. I

15 did my best. I even made my witness hurry, but tomorrow I'm not going to

16 take up more than half a session to complete my examination, by your

17 leave.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Okay, Mr. Borovic.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE PARKER: We adjourn now. We resume tomorrow morning at 9.30

21 and we sit tomorrow until 5.00.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day of

24 October, 2006, at 9.30 a.m.