Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12982

1 Friday, 13 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.18 a.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. I must apologise for the delay. One

6 Judge, as you can see, has been detained and so Judge Thelin and I will

7 sit under Rule 15 bis, and we hope to receive news in the course of the

8 morning. The witness is being brought in, I believe.

9 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you permit me to

10 address you while we're waiting for the witness, just so that we can save

11 time. I'm going to do everything possible to finish with this witness

12 today, because new witnesses are arriving, so we do not want to then have

13 this witness stay over until next week. Our witnesses are also military

14 officials, and they also are obliged to return to their duties. There are

15 certain restrictions regarding their stay abroad. This is why I am

16 telling you this, and I would like to ask my learned friend from the

17 Prosecution to keep this in mind during cross-examination. Thank you.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that. I just apologise again that

19 we've lost you some time.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir. Would you read aloud the

22 affirmation on the card that is given to you now.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.

Page 12983

1 Shutters.

2 Ms. Tapuskovic.

3 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examination by Ms. Tapuskovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. You're going to testify here

8 under protective measures. You have been given a pseudonym. I'm going to

9 address you during the examination-in-chief as "sir." You will have voice

10 and face distortion.

11 A court officer now is going to show you a piece of paper for you

12 to go over your particulars, and then you can say aloud that these are

13 your particulars and that they are correct.

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

16 document to the other parties in the proceedings and the Trial Chamber.

17 Your Honours, I would like to tender this as an exhibit under

18 seal.

19 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received under seal.

20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 793, Your Honours.

21 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Sir, in order to complete your testimony today, all the parties

23 are going to do their utmost that that is so, so that you could leave to

24 go back home tomorrow and so that you do not have to stay here during the

25 weekend. And for that reason, I would like to ask that your answers to me

Page 12984

1 or to the other side be as brief and as concise as possible. I would also

2 like to ask you to make a pause between my question and your answer so

3 that your answer could be recorded correctly in the transcript, the way

4 you said it. Do you understand me?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I would also warn you that at certain points we're going to move

7 into private session, which means that the session will be not broadcast

8 in public and those parts during private session will not be part of the

9 public transcript. Is that clear?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now move

12 into private session briefly?

13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 12985

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

6 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Sir, can you please tell us whether the Prosecution ever requested

8 an interview with you.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you please tell us whether you actually had this interview;

11 and if so, when?

12 A. I was summoned to come on the 15th of September at 2.00 p.m.,

13 which is what I did. I responded to the request for the interview.

14 Q. Did you have a waiver from keeping military secrets during the

15 interview?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And now, as you are testifying before this Trial Chamber, have you

18 been given this waiver?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The Defence received a recording of that interview that you had

21 with the Prosecutor's office. Can you please tell us how long the

22 interview lasted.

23 A. About an hour.

24 Q. And was the microphone switched on during the entire interview

25 that you had with the representatives of the Prosecutor's office?

Page 12986

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can you please tell me what your response was to the request by

3 the Prosecution to interview you.

4 A. I warned them that I did not have the waiver relating to military

5 secrets.

6 Q. And what did they say when they heard your answer? What kind of a

7 statement did they ask for?

8 MR. WEINER: I object at this time, Your Honour.


10 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we received an initial 65 ter summary on

11 July 11th, indicating four items that this witness was going to testify

12 to. We received a second supplemental summary on July 31st as to what

13 this witness was going to testify to. Yesterday we received something -

14 I'm not sure what this is - called proofing notes, I have copies for the

15 Court, listing about another ten items that this witness is going to speak

16 about. This is not on any list of what this witness is going to speak

17 about. Those proofing notes are so general you can state what the witness

18 is going to speak about, any specific facts. I didn't listen to that tape

19 yesterday. I would have if I knew this issue was going to be raised.

20 From the proofing notes, it is clear we have no idea, in many important

21 areas, what this witness is going to say. We have no advance notice.

22 I spoke with Ms. Tapuskovic yesterday. I got some information in

23 some of these areas, but on certain areas, such as Seselj's visit to

24 Vukovar, it's going to be interesting because we have no idea what this

25 witness is going to say. On Radic's relationship with other soldiers in

Page 12987

1 neighbouring units, no idea what this witness is going to say. With

2 regard to this issue, we have no idea what this witness is going to say

3 because we have had no notice of this.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Tapuskovic.

5 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what my colleague

6 Mr. Weiner says is only partially correct. When the 65 ter list was

7 drafted and when the brief summaries were handed over, the witness still

8 did not have the waiver from keeping military secrets. So he did agree,

9 in principle, to testify and, in principle, he just gave us brief

10 indications what he would testify about. The witness was waived from

11 keeping military secrets.

12 On one of those days when I addressed the Trial Chamber, that was

13 when the Defence was actually here in The Hague and we were unable to

14 actually speak with the witness in detail. A detailed conversation with

15 the witness was conducted only when the witness came to The Hague and when

16 we proofed this witness, and that is when we made the notes. That day we

17 were in court until 4.00 p.m., and we were only able to speak with the

18 witness from 6.00 p.m. onwards. And then the next day we, of course, had

19 to come back to the courtroom.

20 According to the 65 ter documents, based on how the Defence

21 understand them, it is actually testimony of the witness relating to

22 certain counts of the indictment. What I asked the witness now does not

23 refer to the indictment, but it refers to actually what the witness

24 requested yesterday when I went to see him and when I informed him that he

25 would testify a little bit later and that he would also need to talk about

Page 12988

1 how the Prosecution had the interview with him in Belgrade and why he

2 refused to provide a statement to the Prosecution, because my learned

3 friend Mr. Moore announced here yesterday that the witness had changed his

4 position, but he didn't provide any further information.

5 So the witness would like to explain why he said, during the

6 interview in Belgrade, that he was prepared to speak with them again and

7 why he said yesterday that he did not wish to speak with them. So if the

8 Trial Chamber believes that this is not relevant, then I am going to move

9 on to my next point in the examination-in-chief of this witness.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Tapuskovic, the position of the witness in

11 speaking to or not speaking to either party before the witness comes to

12 give evidence is not, at the outset, a matter of relevance to this

13 Chamber. If he has cross-examined on the basis that the witness has

14 changed his position from what he said, then it does become of relevance.

15 So at the moment you have no need to go into this, and in view of the

16 position and objection of Mr. Weiner, I doubt that he will be doing so

17 himself.

18 The second matter raised is whether, for example, this last note

19 is an adequate indication of the facts on which the witness will testify.

20 That is what the rule requires, that the summaries of evidence identify

21 the facts as to which the witness will testify. Now, that, of course,

22 means the important and significant facts, not every possible detail,

23 because it's not a full statement; it's merely a summary. But the

24 document that is here merely, at the most, identifies a topic and does not

25 identify what are the facts about which the witness will testify.

Page 12989

1 It may be, therefore, that once he has given evidence, it may

2 become necessary for the Prosecution to seek an adjournment before they

3 cross-examine. I don't know whether that will occur and I hope it

4 doesn't. But that's the consequence of an outline of evidence which fails

5 to identify adequately the material facts about which the witness will

6 testify.

7 So at the moment you will be free, of course, to proceed with your

8 evidence. There's no need to deal with the question of whether or not the

9 witness spoke to the Prosecution. And we will hope that it proves

10 possible in the course of the day for Mr. Weiner to be able to conduct and

11 complete his cross-examination.

12 Just at this moment, the Judges will rise for a minute, and I'm

13 pleased to say we'll be able to continue with three Judges.

14 --- Break taken at 9.37 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 9.40 a.m.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Tapuskovic.

17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Sir, can you please tell us whether you know the accused, Miroslav

19 Radic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us since when you've known him.

22 A. Since November 1990, when I came to the Guards Motorised Brigade.

23 Q. Thank you. And you went to the Vukovar front with Mr. Radic. Is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12990

1 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

2 move into private session for a minute.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 12991

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 12992

1 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

2 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Sir, can you please tell us if you took part in the combat actions

4 of your company.

5 A. No.

6 Q. When your colleagues were in combat, where were you?

7 A. I was at the company stations.

8 Q. Could you please tell us the address of these company stations

9 where you were.

10 A. I really couldn't give you the number. One of them was in

11 Svetozara Markovica Street and the other one was in Nova Ulica Street, at

12 our observation post.

13 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us in whose house the observation

14 post was located.

15 A. In the house of a certain Stanko.

16 Q. And can you please tell me why this house was chosen as the

17 observation post, if you know.

18 A. Because it was a very solidly built house, it had more than one

19 storey, and the company commander was able to have a good overview of the

20 terrain from the roof of the house.

21 Q. And did you use that house until the end of your stay in Vukovar

22 as an observation post? Did you stay in that house until the end?

23 A. There were several observation posts, but this observation post

24 was the one where we spent most of our time. But there were several

25 observation posts.

Page 12993

1 Q. And do you believe that this house, this observation post that you

2 mentioned, was safe?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Sir, can you please tell us where you slept during your stay in

5 Vukovar.

6 A. At the observation post and at the other company station from time

7 to time.

8 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see on our

9 screens a Defence exhibit, 2D11, that is, -0169.

10 Q. Sir, does this sketch say anything to you?

11 A. That is our observation post.

12 Q. So that is the house where you slept, as you said a few moments

13 ago; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask the usher to give the

16 witness a pen.

17 Q. And now I'm going to ask you to use this pen on the screen where

18 you see the photograph, to show us things or perhaps draw things for us,

19 and what you draw will remain in the form of a red line.

20 Sir, can you draw for us on this sketch of the observation post

21 where it was that you slept, as you said.

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. Can you mark that with a number 1 on the side, and could you

24 circle that number 1.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 12994

1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether you know where Captain Radic

2 slept.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. Can you place a number 2 within that circle. And could you please

5 respond by speaking into the microphone so that we have your answer

6 recorded.

7 A. This is where Captain Radic slept.

8 Q. Could you please tell us what number you used to mark the place

9 where Captain Radic had slept.

10 A. Number 2.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether you remember whether anybody

12 else slept in this house, in addition to the two of you.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you give us the names.

15 A. A soldier, Dejan Petkovic. Petkovic. I don't remember the names

16 exactly. I would not want the Court to misunderstand me. There was this

17 one soldier who was a Muslim, but I do not recall his name. And from time

18 to time, a journalist, or rather, a war reporter, Peternek.

19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us just where they slept, in which house.

20 A. In this same house where we were.

21 Q. Can you tell me what numbers 3, 7, 6, and 5 denote on this sketch.

22 A. Could I please have a look. Yes.

23 Q. Could you please tell me what they denote.

24 A. That is a low building, if I can put it that way, which was close

25 to the street, that building.

Page 12995

1 Q. Can you tell us what was in that low building, what you or anybody

2 else from your company did in that building.

3 A. On this picture, the number 5 shows where the company office was.

4 Q. Could you please explain to us what a company office is.

5 A. A place where the company commander studied the assignments he got

6 from the superior command.

7 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you one more thing. Could you please

8 draw something for us, namely in what room others, that is to say, either

9 soldiers or other visitors that you mentioned a few moments ago, slept.

10 A. As for the persons I mentioned, well, yes. But as far as I know,

11 there were no visitors.

12 Q. You mentioned Peternek. He was not a soldier; right?

13 A. Yes, he was a journalist.

14 Q. Tell us, then, where Peternek and the other soldiers you mentioned

15 slept. Can you mark this for us on this sketch.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you please take the pen and actually draw it.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Sir, what is this that you've drawn?

20 A. Places where the said persons slept, and Mr. Peternek, from time

21 to time, when he was staying with us.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

24 tender this sketch.

25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

Page 12996

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit Number 794, Your Honours.

2 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Tell me, please --

4 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have kept the sketch from

5 before, Your Honours, so that it wouldn't get lost. I apologise.

6 Q. Sir, could you tell us whether what you drew were beds, or did

7 people sleep there in some other way?

8 A. People slept in other places as well, but what I drew here, number

9 2 was a bed. As for the rest, it was makeshift; blankets, sleeping bags,

10 and people slept on the floor, too.

11 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, do you know up until when your

12 company had a combat task?

13 A. Up until the 9th or 10th of November. I think it was the 10th,

14 all things considered.

15 Q. On what is your memory based? How come you are saying it's the

16 9th or the 10th of November?

17 A. Because that was the end of combat actions.

18 Q. Can you tell me for whom this was the end of combat actions?

19 A. Our 3rd Company.

20 Q. Can you tell me what the combat task was that your company had?

21 A. Our company had the task of deblocking and liberating the barracks

22 from formations.

23 Q. I asked you what exactly the task of your company was, the company

24 that you belonged to, your company. Can you tell me on what axis your

25 company was?

Page 12997

1 A. Yes. Nova Ulica-Milovo Brdo was the axis.

2 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me, after the 10th, where was

3 your company staying?

4 A. At the observation posts, or rather, at the observation post and

5 at the places where the army had been grouped. As for Milovo Brdo, we had

6 part of our people there for the purpose of security and for the purpose

7 of guarding these positions.

8 Q. As for all these days, from the 10th, where did you bring food?

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.

10 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, an objection, just for the record. We

11 are well outside of the notice provided to the Prosecution, any of these

12 three notices. All we have is the combat task of his unit and when it was

13 accomplished.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

15 MR. WEINER: And the second one is his activities up to the moment

16 of departure from Belgrade.

17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to the

18 last note that was submitted to the Prosecution, that was yesterday, early

19 in the morning, it says that the witness will explain what the combat

20 tasks of his company were, when the combat task was accomplished, and his

21 activities from that moment all the way up to his departure for Belgrade.

22 So I think that the Defence did provide a frame for what the witness would

23 be speaking about.

24 JUDGE PARKER: We're not going to spend time on this now, Ms.

25 Tapuskovic, but could I point out that's precisely the problem. You have

Page 12998

1 indicated in this "subject matters about which the witness will give

2 evidence," you have not identified the material facts about which he will

3 speak. And that's the difference. But as I indicated earlier, we won't

4 delay now. If you could carry on.

5 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Sir, can you tell us -- or rather, I put a question to you before

7 my colleague Mr. Weiner objected. The question was where you took food to

8 the soldiers from your company.

9 A. Specifically for these soldiers who were at that particular line

10 of security, that is where I brought food. As for the others, to the

11 company station.

12 Q. Tell me, can you remember what it was that you did on the 18th of

13 November; and if you can remember, can you tell us how it is that you

14 remember that that happened on that particular day?

15 A. On the 18th we had our regular assignments. As a matter of fact,

16 I was the busiest on that day because of the materiel that had to be

17 collected; however, in the afternoon we received information that combat

18 activity has been completed in Vukovar, that it was over.

19 Q. Can you tell us whether you remember what else you did on that

20 day?

21 A. Yes. Among other things, I went to Negoslavci to take some

22 equipment, or rather, shirts, uniforms that were being laundered, so that

23 our soldiers could get clean ones, and I took about ten uniforms that had

24 come to the brigade.

25 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I shall repeat the

Page 12999

1 question in part because of the mistake in the transcript.

2 Q. You mentioned the uniforms that you took. How many did you take

3 and how many arrived in Negoslavci?

4 A. I took my equipment, the one that I had handed over, or rather,

5 the clothes that I handed over to be laundered, and I took one camouflage

6 uniform. I think that ten had arrived.

7 Q. Can you tell me whether these uniforms that had arrived were new

8 uniforms?

9 A. Yes. The one that I picked up was new. The rest of the things

10 that I picked up were actually items that had been laundered and repaired.

11 Q. Can you please tell us now if you remember what happened then.

12 Can you describe what you did the next day, the 19th of November?

13 A. Yes. The next day there were some activities relating to

14 preparation of food, delivery of food. We were also given an assignment.

15 Q. Can you please tell us what assignment you were given that day,

16 and when?

17 A. In the morning, I don't know exactly when, Captain Radic received

18 an assignment from the battalion commander to go across the Vuka River,

19 across the bridge, with other soldiers to the hospital, and to secure the

20 hospital.

21 Q. And can you please tell us the name of your battalion commander?

22 A. The battalion commander was Major Borivoje Tesic.

23 Q. Can you please tell me if you saw or heard when the order was

24 issued to Captain Miroslav Radic?

25 A. Yes. I was very close when the order came through the radio for

Page 13000

1 this assignment that I mentioned to be carried out.

2 Q. And can you tell me, what sort of radio device was it?

3 A. I don't know exactly what kind it was, but it was some sort of

4 Motorola.

5 Q. Who had the Motorolas in your company?

6 A. There were two in our company; one was with Captain Radic and the

7 other one was with Lieutenant (redacted)

8 Q. Can you please tell us, was there a reason why (redacted), in

9 particular, had the Motorola as opposed to any of the other soldiers in

10 the company?

11 A. Yes. First, Lieutenant (redacted) was the deputy commander of

12 the company. Another important reason why he had the Motorola was because

13 he was further away from Captain Radic and from our positions because of

14 the kind of assignment he was given, and they had to be in contact.

15 Q. Very well. When you were given the assignment, can you briefly

16 describe what happened then.

17 A. When we were given the assignment, or rather, when Captain Radic

18 was given the assignment, I was there. There were some 15 or 20 soldiers

19 there, too, and we were supposed to carry out this order. Should I

20 finish?

21 Q. Can you please tell me if you can remember any of the soldiers,

22 their names, who set off on this assignment.

23 A. Yes, up to a point. (redacted), Miro Lepojevic, and as for the

24 rest, I cannot recall.

25 Q. And can you please tell me how you came from Milovo Brdo to your

Page 13001

1 destination in order to carry out the assignment.

2 A. We took a couple of cars, without any preparation or an assessment

3 of the situation, and set off in the direction of the hospital. There

4 were four or five cars, actually, something like that.

5 Q. How long did it take you to get to the hospital from Milovo Brdo?

6 A. From the moment we set off, perhaps it took 15 to 20 minutes.

7 Q. Can you please tell us what you did once you reached the hospital,

8 you and the other soldiers.

9 A. When we got to the hospital, Captain Radic ordered us to take up

10 positions around the hospital, to secure the hospital, not to allow anyone

11 to enter or to leave the hospital.

12 Q. And can you tell us how long you secured the hospital? How long

13 did this last in terms of time?

14 A. I don't know how many hours we were there, but we were there until

15 the afternoon.

16 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what the soldiers were doing

17 during that time that they were securing the hospital.

18 A. We were given an assignment, and then each of us were given a

19 sector that we were supposed to monitor. I went with soldier (redacted) and

20 two or three others - I don't know their names - to secure the left side

21 of the hospital as you're looking in the direction of the MUP. When we

22 came to that part, it was noticed --

23 JUDGE PARKER: Could you pause there. Thank you.

24 Mr. Weiner.

25 MR. WEINER: Sorry to interrupt, Your Honour, but certain names

Page 13002

1 have been said; one is page 19, line 25, and the other is page 20, line

2 21. I was going to wait until the end but it's continuing. If certain

3 names are going to be used, could we please go into private session.

4 JUDGE PARKER: I've been signing redactions.

5 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

6 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Can you continue now, please. These were just some procedural

8 matters. You can continue. My question was: What happened then, and how

9 did you carry out your assignment?

10 A. Yes. I'm speaking about me and the men who were with me. On the

11 left side of the hospital, looking in the direction of the MUP and the

12 municipal building, we took up positions there. Soldier (redacted) noted

13 two containers with, let's say, strange contents. We, or rather, I went

14 up there. (redacted) looked through the contents of those bags. There were

15 uniforms in those bags. I specifically told him, "Please leave that. I

16 don't want to be looking at all kinds of things." He continued to take

17 out these bags, and he warned me that these were uniforms. And I saw that

18 for myself afterwards, that these were uniforms. They were in good

19 condition. There were no holes from bullets. I assumed that these were

20 uniforms from the wounded, but no, these were in good condition. They

21 were a little bit dirty, perhaps, but there was no trace of blood. So

22 this was complete equipment.

23 At the time when Borovo was working, the Borovo factory, they used

24 to make these boots, yellow boots. They were also in good conditions.

25 And the boots were called Kanadjanke, Canadian boots. But we found 10 to

Page 13003

1 15 black uniforms in good condition, with insignia on the left and the

2 right side of the sleeves. There was a letter U as well as insignia with

3 HOS, indicating the Croatian defence forces.

4 There were a number of camouflage uniforms of American

5 manufacture. I don't know that I am exaggerating. We recognised them

6 because they had special kind of bomber jackets; we call them Vijetnamka.

7 And there were also some Velcro fastenings, indicating that these were

8 uniforms belonging to some formations. There were also plenty of green

9 M-77 uniforms; that's what they were called at the time. Anyone had that

10 uniform at that time at home. This was pursuant to the laws that were in

11 force at that time. Everybody had to have a uniform at the time.

12 Q. All right. Very well. Thank you. I was waiting for you to pause

13 because our voices mustn't overlap. But anyway, what did it mean to you

14 when you saw those uniforms with the U and the HOS insignia?

15 A. As a professional, the first thing that came to mind was that

16 these were enemy formations' uniforms, uniforms from people from the other

17 side, who had taken them off and who were concealing themselves, hiding

18 somewhere.

19 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like us now

20 to look at Exhibit 170 on the monitors. This is a set of photographs.

21 Can we please look at a photograph that is third in order, and it bears

22 the number 0053-1258. It's on page 3.

23 Q. If there are any problems, while we're waiting for the picture on

24 the screen, I'm going to put my question to you, sir, so that we can save

25 time. What did you do when you saw those uniforms?

Page 13004

1 A. As I mentioned earlier, since I am a professional, the first thing

2 that came to mind was that someone had taken off those uniforms and that

3 perhaps these people are somewhere nearby, that we had encountered an

4 ambush. So I went to look for Captain Radic to inform him about that.

5 Q. Thank you very much, sir. Now you can see on the screen in front

6 of you a photograph. Can you tell what you see in this photograph. Do

7 you recognise what is on this photograph? On the right-hand monitor, can

8 you see what's there?

9 A. Yes, yes. I was just waiting for the interpretation to finish.

10 Yes, that's the hospital.

11 Q. When you say "that's the hospital," you mean the Vukovar

12 Hospital. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you take the marker again, please, and indicate on the

15 photograph the places where you and the other soldiers from your company

16 were deployed. Can you point on the photograph to the place where you saw

17 that container. When you indicate the container, can you please mark that

18 with number 1, and can you mark the other points accordingly, and then we

19 will know that these were the places where the soldiers were deployed.

20 Can you please do that.

21 A. No, I cannot indicate that here because we were not -- actually, I

22 and my soldiers were not on this side.

23 Q. Just one moment, please. We're going to look for other

24 photographs. This is another photograph, the fourth in order, and the

25 number is 1259.

Page 13005

1 Sir, does this jog your memory, this photograph?

2 A. Up to a point. Actually, if you do have the photograph, what I

3 need is this side here, the side facing the direction of the MUP.

4 Q. [Microphone not activated].

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. What about this side of the hospital and the picture you can see

8 now? Does that jog your memory in terms of the place where you were,

9 where you secured the hospital? Can you remember, sir?

10 A. Yes, that is my sector. That's the sector that I was securing,

11 yes.

12 Q. Can you now indicate, can you now draw what I asked you to,

13 namely, the place where you saw the container with these uniforms, and can

14 you mark that with number 1; as well as the places where you and the

15 others, the other soldiers, if you recall as far as the other soldiers are

16 concerned, or rather, where you were deployed in order to secure the

17 hospital. Could you please take the marker and try to draw this for us.

18 A. Yes, this is where the container were, a small one here and a big

19 one here, here, and here.

20 Q. So let's mark these squares, if we are going to call them that, 1

21 and 2. Could you put the numbers 1 and 2 within those squares, please.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So, sir, those are containers, as you put it.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you now draw -- we just have two minutes left until the

Page 13006

1 break. Can you draw exactly where it was that the soldiers were standing.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Please do so.

4 A. We were not on the tree; we were underneath the tree.

5 Q. I'm asking you now to mark those circles with capital letters A,

6 B, C, and D next to the circles.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. Can you tell us now whether Captain Radic was at any one of these

9 places, A, B, C, or D?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

13 tender this drawing made by the witness.

14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 795, Your Honours.

16 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry, I told

17 the witness that we would be having a break now, but we started with a bit

18 of a delay, so I don't know whether we are actually taking the break now

19 or whether I should go on for a couple of minutes.

20 JUDGE PARKER: I think you can have another ten minutes.

21 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. You said to us before you drew this that you wanted to find

23 Captain Radic; right? I'm just repeating what you said a moment ago.

24 A. Yes, I wanted to find him and I found Captain Radic. I wanted to

25 report to him about what we had found.

Page 13007

1 Q. Tell us, where did you find Captain Radic and what was his answer

2 to what you said, namely what you had found?

3 A. I found Captain Radic -- well, on the other side of the hospital.

4 He was somewhere around there. Now, I cannot show the place to you

5 exactly, but it was on the other side of the hospital that I found him and

6 that I informed him about this.

7 Q. And what did he answer to you when you informed him about this?

8 A. He didn't give me any kind of answer. He just ran after me. I

9 don't know whether you can see this. He ran, say, from the back side of

10 the hospital towards me, and along the way he told all the soldiers on the

11 way, "Maximum combat alert, prepare for action," because that was the only

12 thing that we could expect. And together with me, he came to this place,

13 1 and 2, to see what this was.

14 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you -- or rather, I would like

15 to ask the usher to show photograph number 3 from the same set.

16 Sir, do you see this photograph? It is the side opposite to the

17 one that you were showing us a moment ago. It's not on the side, but it

18 is the exact opposite. Can you draw a circle around the place where you

19 came across Captain Radic, if you remember.

20 A. Yes, that's the side of the hospital.

21 Q. Can you draw that.

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. And can you use an arrow to mark the direction in which, as you

24 said, Captain Radic started moving after you told him what you told him.

25 A. Yes. After I informed him about this, after I informed Captain

Page 13008

1 Radic about this, in this area where the soldiers were, he immediately

2 told them, "Maximum combat alert. Get ready. We can be attacked. We

3 don't know where from." As a matter of fact, we were even expecting to be

4 attacked from the hospital. And together with me he set out in this

5 direction.

6 Along the way he was telling other people -- I don't know whether

7 there's an entrance into the hospital here, too. But then we went around

8 and came to this place where I had been before. Here, you can see it,

9 where these containers were. You can see it here. I'll do it this way

10 because it's a small photograph.

11 Q. I would like to ask you to use a circle to indicate where Captain

12 Radic had set out from, using a capital A, and then could you please mark

13 the second circle with a capital B and could you draw the arrow a bit more

14 clearly so that we can see even later that that is the direction in which

15 you were moving.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. Could you please mark this other circle with a B. As far as I

18 managed to hear you, you said that these were containers. You can put a

19 circle underneath, or rather, next to the circle you can put a number a

20 letter B.

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. Thank you. And since you said that already at point A Captain

23 Radic said to the soldiers, "Full combat alert, full combat readiness,"

24 can you tell us where the soldiers were standing? Can you indicate that.

25 A. This side -- I'm not sure where people were standing exactly. I

Page 13009

1 don't want it to seem that there were too few of us or too many of us, so

2 I'm doing it tentatively. Say 5 or 10 metres was the distance between

3 individual soldiers.

4 Q. [Microphone not activated].

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

6 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Could you please place numbers next to every one of these little

8 circles so that we would know later what these little circles denote.

9 A. Is this what you meant?

10 Q. Excellent. Fine. Thank you.

11 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. So basically

13 this is what they were -- this is where they were.

14 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this photograph

17 please be admitted into evidence into evidence.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 796, Your Honour.

20 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Can you tell us now what happened then, after you had informed

22 Captain Radic about what you had found in front of the hospital, rather,

23 within the hospital compound.

24 A. I omitted to mention one thing a few moments ago. When I started

25 looking for Captain Radic - over here is where the entrance was, I thought

Page 13010

1 that Captain Radic was there, perhaps. I went in; I went out. He was not

2 there, and I continued moving along all the way up to Captain Radic, where

3 I actually found him.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could other microphones

5 please be switched off in the courtroom. Thank you.

6 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Could you tell us exactly where this other hall was where you

8 came? And can you tell us what number was placed so that we would

9 understand what you mean by this subcorridor; that's the word that you

10 used.

11 A. I put a Roman numeral VII and VIII, so the subcorridor can be seen

12 exactly. It is going underneath the ground. I'm trying to say that it is

13 an underground thing. And there is also something above it which I don't

14 know, I mean I don't know what it is.

15 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me approximately whether you remember

16 when that security was put in place on that day.

17 A. I've just said that I cannot remember exactly, but it was in the

18 afternoon. Let's say in the late afternoon hours, that is to say, that it

19 was not dark yet. That is how long we were there.

20 Q. Tell me, the soldiers that took part in securing the hospital, who

21 set out together with you and Radic towards the hospital, were all of them

22 soldiers who were members of your unit, that is to say, the 3rd Company?

23 A. Yes, all of them were active soldiers. And I and Captain Radic

24 and Lieutenant Hadzic, the three of us were active-duty officers and

25 active soldiers of the Yugoslav People's Army.

Page 13011

1 Q. Let us now conclude on this subject: Can you tell us how you

2 completed this task of securing the hospital.

3 A. Since Captain Radic left the sector of the hospital a bit earlier,

4 Lieutenant Hadzic took us out and handed over the security of the hospital

5 to the military police of our guards battalion so that they would go on

6 securing the facility.

7 Q. Who appeared on behalf of the military police when this handover

8 of security took place? Who commanded that military police?

9 A. Should I say so, or do we have to do that in closed session?

10 Q. Please go ahead.

11 A. I think it was Captain Simic. I cannot remember his name.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that this

14 would be a convenient moment to take the break.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

16 Now, we must have a half-hour break because of the redactions.

17 You'll have to be very conscious of time, Ms. Tapuskovic.

18 We will resume at 20 minutes past.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.49 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.23 a.m.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Tapuskovic.

22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Sir, you told us that you found uniforms which had been discarded

24 within the perimeter of the hospital. Can you tell us whether you found

25 anything else within the hospital perimeter.

Page 13012

1 A. Yes, and I would kindly ask you if you could again show me the

2 picture of the positions where we were.

3 Q. I don't see a need for that. We will abide by the order of the

4 Trial Chamber that your examination should be over as soon as possible.

5 You don't have to point to where you found things, but just tell us

6 whether you found something, and what.

7 A. We found weapons, pistols, hunting rifles, rifles, PAM guns,

8 shotguns.

9 Q. Please tell us, whom did you see in front of the hospital? Was

10 there anybody else in front of the hospital?

11 A. Yes. Later on our battalion commander came.

12 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me what you did when you handed

13 the security over to Simic; isn't that what you said?

14 A. Yes, it is. I just said that Captain Radic left the area somewhat

15 earlier. Lieutenant Hadzic was in charge of us because he was the deputy

16 commander of the company. Lieutenant Hadzic handed over the hospital and

17 the security of the hospital to the military police company. And we

18 ourselves went to the observation point.

19 Q. Can you please remember what happened that evening at the

20 observation point, and who spent the night at the observation point?

21 A. On our return to the observation point, which was later that

22 afternoon, I personally handed over the uniform to Captain Radic. That's

23 the uniform that I had worn the previous day, and it was a camouflage

24 uniform. I previously took it from Negoslavci.

25 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a correction in

Page 13013

1 the transcript, where it says that the witness had worn the uniform on the

2 previous day.

3 Q. Can you please explain whether you brought the camouflage uniform,

4 and who you handed this uniform over to.

5 A. Yes. On the previous day I brought the uniform from Negoslavci,

6 and on that evening I handed it over to Captain Radic.

7 Q. Can you please describe that uniform and how many parts it

8 consisted of. Just a brief description, please.

9 A. It was a camouflage uniform from the first series of those

10 uniforms that were made. As far as I remember, there was a pair of

11 trousers, a shirt, an anorak and a hat.

12 Q. Can you describe the hat?

13 A. It was a camouflage hat. And the shape was a Tito's hat, which

14 was part of the M-77 uniform previously, our uniform, but the colour was

15 different, it was a camouflage colour.

16 Q. And what about the second part of my previous question? Can you

17 please remember where you spent the night, where Radic spent the night,

18 and where other soldiers from your company spent that night?

19 A. I remained in the house, at the observation point that is, and all

20 the soldiers were grouped into three houses across the road from the

21 battalion command. Those were three terraced [Realtime transcript read in

22 error "terrorist"] houses, and in one of them was my company station. All

23 the soldiers were there, in groups.

24 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] On page 33, in line 1, it says

25 those were "terrorist" houses, which has in the meantime been corrected

Page 13014

1 into three houses.

2 Q. And now can you please tell us where Captain Radic spent that

3 night.

4 A. You mean the 19th?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. I believe that he was also in that house.

7 Q. You mentioned three houses in that street, in the vicinity of the

8 battalion command. I am now asking you: In which house did Captain Radic

9 spend that night?

10 A. He spent that night in the second house, in the middle of that

11 terrace. There were three houses in the terrace and he was sleeping in

12 the middle house on that night, during that night.

13 Q. What happened the following day, the 20th of November? Can you

14 remember where people were and what your activities were on the 20th of

15 November?

16 A. On the 20th of November, I had a lot of things to do in terms of

17 bringing over materiel and dealing and looking after that, and that lasted

18 into the late afternoon hours of that day.

19 Q. Do you remember what happened in the evening hours? Where was

20 Captain Radic?

21 MR. WEINER: I object, Your Honour.


23 MR. WEINER: There has never been any notice to anything happening

24 in relation to this witness on the 20th, be it the initial notes of -- the

25 initial 65 ter of July 11th, the second 65 ter or the updates on the 31st,

Page 13015

1 and even the so-called proofing notes. And at this point I have no idea

2 where this is going.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Tapuskovic.

4 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the proofing note

5 that was provided to the Prosecutor is what it is, and obviously the

6 Prosecutor is not happy with those proofing notes. However, we did

7 indicate that the witness would testify in general terms about what he did

8 from the fall of Vukovar to the moment when his company, i.e., the entire

9 brigade, left to go to Belgrade.

10 I'm going to rephrase my question and I'll ask the witness what he

11 did on the following day, whom he saw on the following day, and how he

12 contacted his men, his troops, the troops from his company, on the

13 following day, in the course of the 20th of November, that is.

14 JUDGE PARKER: This is getting beyond what is any attempt to

15 provide what is required by the Rules, Ms. Tapuskovic. I have looked down

16 this proofing note again, and there is absolutely no hint that this topic

17 will even be touched on. There's certainly no indication of the material

18 facts about which the witness will speak.

19 There are two courses open to the Chamber: One, we could refuse

20 to allow the evidence to be led; the other is allow it to be led, but if

21 the Prosecution is genuinely embarrassed by it, to have to adjourn then to

22 allow them to prepare their cross-examination. The consequence of that is

23 to get you into difficulty with your witness because of the basis that he

24 is here and the time that he is allowed to be here by his army.

25 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as a member of Mr.

Page 13016

1 Radic's team, I accept your suggestions and I accept your criticism about

2 our proofing notes. And we are entirely in your hands and we shall abide

3 by your decision, whether to continue this witness's testimony about the

4 circumstances or whether to leave the Prosecutor time to prepare for the

5 cross-examination that would cover this new area of examination. I can

6 also withdraw any questions about that day. I'm withdrawing all my future

7 questions about that day to save time and to be able to draw this

8 witness's testimony to an end. I will, therefore, move on to another

9 topic.

10 Let me just tell you that the topic of the 20th of November has to

11 do with the item of the proofing notes which reads "the order was conveyed

12 to him to line up the troops on the 21st of November." But if you wish me

13 to do so, I will move on immediately to the 21st of November, without

14 dealing with the process of the order having been conveyed to him on the

15 previous day.

16 JUDGE PARKER: I think that would be an excellent course to take.

17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Sir, can you tell us what happened on the 21st of November, in the

19 early morning hours. What were your activities on that day? Whom did you

20 see and whom did you talk to?

21 A. Before that, I would like to say something, if I may. I can see

22 that the 20th of November is in dispute. In the questions that I received

23 from the Prosecutor, I was waived from keeping the military secret and I

24 can talk about the 20th and the 21st as per their request.

25 Q. At the express order by the Trial Chamber, we skipped the

Page 13017

1 questions by the Prosecutor and the information that they wanted to elicit

2 from you; that's why I'm asking you to answer my question. And the

3 question was: What you did on the 21st; if you remember, why you remember

4 this; and whom did you see on that day, and so on.

5 A. On the 21st of November, I got up somewhat earlier because I was

6 at the observation point. I looked around and Captain Radic was not

7 there. I went out of that house, and in the adjacent building I found

8 Captain Radic asleep there. I woke him up, and then we embarked on the

9 preparations for the lining up of the troops. This had been ordered by

10 the battalion command.

11 The review took place in front of the observation point in Nova

12 Street. Captain Stijakovic carried out the review of the troops. The

13 troops returned to their positions in the area of deployment. Captain

14 Radic was very tired. He said, "I'm going to have some rest." He

15 returned to rest. I was there as well, because that was one part of my

16 company's station. That's where I prepared the ammunition. I sealed the

17 boxes to prevent looting. And the whole day actually reduced to the

18 preparations for the return to Belgrade, which had been ordered.

19 Q. I asked you who you saw, who you met that day, but we can go back

20 to the review. Can you please tell us how long the review lasted.

21 A. I cannot really say how many minutes it lasted, but Captain Radic

22 reported to Captain Stijakovic. Captain Stijakovic reviewed the unit,

23 inspected the unit, greeted them; we greeted him in turn. We saluted

24 him. There was an inspection of the soldiers, whether everything was in

25 order, whether the soldiers were shaved, and so on. He was there for a

Page 13018

1 couple of minutes more, and then he continued on with his regular duties.

2 So the only person I saw was Captain Stijakovic; no one else was there at

3 that review except us soldiers.

4 Q. And can you remember what else you did that day?

5 A. We continued with our preparations for our return. Specifically,

6 in relation to Captain Radic, I know that he was resting at the

7 observation post where he was.

8 Q. Can you tell us whether you met anyone else that day outside of

9 the observation post or at the company stations. Who did you meet that

10 day? Who were the people coming to the observation post, if anyone did

11 come to the observation post that day?

12 A. There was no one at the observation post; no one came either.

13 While I was in this first location where the 1st Company station was, I

14 saw the company commander. There were people who were coming there from

15 the command and so on. I don't know exactly what they were doing there.

16 This was in Svetozara Markovica Street, where the battalion command was.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

18 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'd object to this. There's been no

19 proper foundation laid as to where he was, what times he was at that

20 observation post, when he was at that observation post. And he says, "No

21 people came when I was there." When is he talking about? Is he talking

22 about the morning, the afternoon --

23 JUDGE PARKER: That's not a basis for objection, Mr. Weiner. It's

24 an imprecision that you can correct in cross-examination.

25 MR. WEINER: However, no proper foundation has been laid, so I

Page 13019

1 would say --

2 JUDGE PARKER: He said he was there at times, and he says, "No one

3 was there when I was there." What's wrong with that?

4 MR. WEINER: All right. As the Court wishes.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It might be that he was only there for ten minutes

6 in the whole day, but there was no one there when he was there. We don't

7 know. But it's not evidence that can be ruled out. It's unclear, and I'm

8 sure now Ms. Tapuskovic will clarify it.

9 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. You've heard the Judge's comment about this particular matter.

11 So, if anybody did come, can you tell us whether they were military

12 officers or members of some other structures. Can you be specific as to

13 who came to the observation post that day after the review?

14 A. No one came to the observation post.

15 Q. I'm asking you about the 21st, sir, the day of the review.

16 A. Other than Captain Stijakovic, who actually conducted the review,

17 no one else came.

18 Q. All right. Thank you very much. You said that day -- over those

19 few days you were very busy with preparations for your departure to

20 Belgrade. Can you please tell us, if you recall, how much time did you

21 actually spend at the observation post?

22 A. The 21st, you mean?

23 Q. Yes, I'm talking about the 21st.

24 A. I spent more time there than at the other observation post,

25 because the other observation post was where the soldiers were, whereas

Page 13020

1 the other part, this observation post where the company station was, was

2 where I spent most of my time because that's where the ammunition was.

3 And I simply wasn't in a position to leave the place for longer than five

4 to ten minutes because the security conditions were inadequate for that.

5 Q. Now we're going to move to another topic. Can you please tell us

6 what you know about the visit of Vojislav Seselj to Vukovar.

7 A. From what I know, he did come to Vukovar. I don't know exactly

8 the date. Perhaps it was in late October. He passed through Nova Ulica

9 Street, which was close to where I was. And I can say that his guerillas,

10 as they're popularly known, his security guards literally pushed me back

11 into the rooms behind the gates so that I wouldn't be near. Regardless of

12 the fact they saw that I was an active officer, they continued moving

13 along Nova Ulica Street towards the town itself.

14 Q. Vojislav Seselj, you mentioned guerillas. What does that mean

15 when you use that term, "guerillas"?

16 A. Well, I used that symbolically. What I mean is his close guards,

17 his body-guards, Seselj's body-guards. Our battalion commander was with

18 him also.

19 Q. Can you please tell me if they stayed for any amount of time in

20 front of your observation post.

21 A. No, no. They just passed by.

22 Q. Do you recall if Captain Miroslav Radic was at the observation

23 post at the time?

24 A. No. Captain Radic was out on activities, at an assignment.

25 Q. Sir, can you please tell me now, who were the soldiers under the

Page 13021

1 command of Captain Radic, or which soldiers were under the command of

2 Captain Radic?

3 A. Captain Radic was in command of the 3rd Company of the 1st

4 Motorised Battalion of the JNA, the units of the Yugoslav People's Army.

5 Q. Does that mean that he communicated only with the members of his

6 company at the observation post?

7 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, before he answers.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.

9 MR. WEINER: Again, we're outside -- we're outside of any notice

10 to us on the --

11 JUDGE PARKER: About what, Mr. Weiner?

12 MR. WEINER: On who the members of Captain Radic's company were,

13 his communications with people. I'm not sure where this is heading, but

14 it seems to be outside the notes.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

16 Carry on, Ms. Tapuskovic, but Mr. Weiner is foreshadowing he may

17 well not be able to cross-examine on these topics. We'll have to deal

18 with that should it arise.

19 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We

20 thought that the proofing notes on page 2, Radic's relationship or

21 attitude towards other soldiers and other units, provides sufficient

22 information to indicate the direction of the examination of this witness,

23 because the definitions were already given and the terms "neighbouring

24 units" and "soldiers" have been described. So that is why we believe that

25 certain things have already been defined on the basis of today's work so

Page 13022

1 that we don't need to provide so many details. But, of course, I accept

2 your position. I'm going to be finished, Your Honours, in about five

3 minutes.

4 Q. Sir, can you please tell us, in cases when Captain Radic was not

5 at the command post, when he was absent for some reason, who substituted

6 for him?

7 A. Could you please repeat your question.

8 Q. When Captain Radic, for any reason, was not at the observation

9 post, who stood in for him? Who did he authorise to carry out his

10 duties? Who was his deputy for most of the jobs that he was performing?

11 A. You mentioned one thing, and this is why I wanted you to repeat

12 the question. Actually, he was replaced by Captain Hadzic, but there was

13 another term that was used and this is why I wanted you to repeat what you

14 asked.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. I would like to go back to your activities,

16 something that we discussed at the very beginning of your testimony, and

17 what was your activity. We're not going to repeat that and there's no

18 need to go into private session for that. But the question is: When you

19 were performing your duties, do you know who actually supplied and did the

20 logistics part of the work for units of the Territorial Defence?

21 A. The TO units were supplied from their own sources.

22 Q. Can you please tell us which TO units were there, that you know

23 of.

24 A. I know the 1st, 2nd, and the 3rd Companies of the TO were there

25 and the Leva Supoderica Detachment, something like that.

Page 13023

1 Q. And who was commanding those units? Can you please tell us.

2 A. The 3rd Company commander was Miroljub Vujanovic, but please, I

3 could be wrong about the surname; so Miroljub Vujanovic. Stanko Vujanovic

4 was also a company commander. As for the Leva Supoderica Detachment, I

5 think it was Milan Lancuzanin.

6 Q. Was it one of your duties, or rather, were you ever told that it

7 would be good also to care for the civilian population? Are you aware of

8 anything like that as being part of your duties?

9 A. What sort of care or help do you mean?

10 Q. Did you, at any point, or your company help the civilian

11 population in Vukovar? Did you distribute food or did you distribute

12 anything else to them?

13 A. Yes, we did help the civilian population as much as we were able

14 to. It was an individual thing in terms of what we helped them with, what

15 we were able to help them with.

16 Q. Can you give us an example, at least one example, of that?

17 A. For example, a couple of times when we could we gave them cans of

18 food. Not much, but whatever it was that we had, we would help them to

19 survive, so that they could have something to eat.

20 Q. And even the small amount of assistance that you were able to

21 provide, did you provide that without paying any attention to any

22 differences between the citizens, regardless of whether they belonged to

23 one ethnic group or the other? Were there any criteria on the basis of

24 which you provided this assistance; and if so, what were they?

25 A. There were no criteria for that. We were the Yugoslav People's

Page 13024

1 Army, and it was our duty, if we were able to, to help all the people

2 specifically. There were all sorts of people.

3 Q. Let's go back to another topic now and that has to do with Captain

4 Radic's relationship with soldiers and other units. Can you tell me

5 whether, at the observation post, Captain Radic, in any way, in those

6 situations when you were there, did he have encounters of any kind; and if

7 so, with who?

8 A. No, he did not meet with anyone and no one came to us. Perhaps

9 somebody would come for a few minutes, in passing. But that somebody

10 would get into the observation post itself, the building itself, no. I

11 just know that this certain Stanko was there a few times - I mean, he

12 simply came there because it was his house - and nobody else. And he'd

13 only go to the garden, have a look, turn around, go away.

14 Q. But you mentioned to us that someone was there from the outside.

15 You said that a journalist was there, Peternek. Tell us about this

16 journalist Peternek. How come he was in the house?

17 A. Since Mr. Peternek was a legal and official war reporter -- now, I

18 don't know whether he's a journalist or a photo reporter. He was assigned

19 to be at that axis. Now, why he slept where we were, somebody else

20 probably decided about that. But this Mr. Peternek very rarely slept at

21 the observation post. When he was there, as far as I know, for the most

22 part, he was at this house that was across the street from the battalion

23 command, in the street of Svetozara Markovica. I cannot remember exactly,

24 but that's where he was.

25 Q. Tell me, do you know whether any other journalist showed up there

Page 13025

1 and entered the observation post?

2 A. No, no. Just Mr. Peternek.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

5 questions of this witness. Thank you.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Tapuskovic.

7 Mr. Domazet, any questions?

8 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour. I have

9 no questions of this witness.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

11 Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No questions of this witness, Your

13 Honour.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

15 Mr. Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I have some questions, but there might

17 be some issues that I might request until Monday, based on some of the

18 testimony that's come out today.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Well ...

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Weiner:

22 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Phil Weiner. I work with the

23 Office of the Prosecutor, and I'm going to be asking you some questions

24 today. Do you understand that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13026

1 Q. Now, sir, you were talking about the observation post and you said

2 people didn't generally come there, or something to that extent. Isn't it

3 true that regular meetings were held at that observation post throughout

4 the time that that was being used in Vukovar? Isn't that true, sir?

5 A. I'm sorry. Could you please be so kind as to repeat your question

6 slowly. It was really too much at a time. Could you kindly repeat it.

7 Q. Sir, isn't it true that meetings were regularly held at that

8 observation post while it was being used in that manner?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Sir, isn't it true that one of the rooms in that building, on that

11 complex, was a meeting room? Isn't that correct, sir?

12 A. No.

13 MR. WEINER: May the witness please be shown Exhibit 794, please.

14 Q. If you could first look and see this 5 that's in a circle that's

15 up on the right. Do you see that, sir, on the -- is that in front of you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And do you recognise this sketch? This sketch was drawn by

18 Captain Radic; are you aware of that?

19 A. I'm sorry. I didn't understand you. What does this sketch mean?

20 Oh, is it "sketch" in the sense of a drawing, a sketch of that kind?

21 Q. Yes. Are you aware that Captain Radic has drawn that?

22 A. I see the drawing or the sketch, but I don't know who drew it.

23 But you said something a few moments ago, and I said at the very outset of

24 my testimony that this was the company working office, not a meeting

25 room. These are two different concepts.

Page 13027

1 Q. Sir, the question is: Are you aware that Captain Radic drew that

2 sketch; yes or no?

3 A. I see the sketch, yes.

4 Q. Now, if --

5 MR. WEINER: Could they move the sketch down a little bit, please,

6 so you can see the bottom -- actually, I have copies of that. One second,

7 please. Let me get it. This is in B/C/S. Here is the B/C/S and the

8 English.

9 Q. Now, do you see that room, number 5, that you testified was where

10 Captain Radic used to sit and work? Do you see that at the top, sir? Do

11 you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. WEINER: And now could we move down to the bottom where they

14 have the explanations of what that number 5 is. Could we move over a

15 little bit? Yes. Thank you very much.

16 Q. And let's see how Captain Radic described that room. "Old house

17 room for meetings." Isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is what is written here. But was this drawn by Captain

19 Radic?

20 Q. Yes, it was, sir. That's what your captain said, that it was used

21 for meetings. Will you now accept that that house was used for meetings,

22 or that room in that house was used for meetings?

23 A. That was the company office. Here it says "room for my meetings

24 in the old house." I can believe it and I cannot believe it. In view of

25 the way I was treated by your gentleman in Belgrade, I cannot claim that

Page 13028

1 it was written by Captain Radic. But that it was the company office,

2 yes. Yes. The company office, yes.

3 Q. Sir, if you would like, we have a 52-minute plus -- approximately

4 50-second video of that meeting in Belgrade. It was all videoed. We can

5 play that, and if you have any complaints, you can happily make them. We

6 would be happy to play that for you, and I think we'll see that you're not

7 telling the truth about that either.

8 Sir, isn't it true that meetings were held in that room? Isn't

9 that correct, sir?

10 A. As for the duration, I came here to tell the truth and nothing but

11 the truth. That is the company office. What is written here is "room for

12 my meetings in the old house." That is the old house by the street.

13 Q. And meetings were held is there; isn't that correct, sir?

14 A. If Captain Radic calls me to tell me what my assignments are, to

15 spell out precisely how much ammunition should be requested, so on and so

16 forth, you can understand that as a meeting room then. But, in principle,

17 there can be no meeting room; there can only be an office, a working

18 office.

19 Q. However, you agree, sir, that that document in front of you or

20 that sketch in front of you says that it's a room for meetings. Isn't

21 that correct, sir?

22 A. That's what's written. But I did not say that that was it and I

23 did not say that Captain Radic drew that.

24 Q. Now, sir, you know that at an observation post meetings can be

25 held. That's a place where a komandir or commander commands. Isn't that

Page 13029

1 correct, sir?

2 A. Could you please repeat that question for me.

3 Q. You know, sir, that at an observation post, a komandir or

4 commander can command from that location and can also hold meetings at

5 that location. Isn't that correct?

6 A. I do not find this question very clear. Could you rephrase it in

7 a different way.

8 Q. A commander or a komandir commands from the observation post.

9 Isn't that correct, sir?

10 A. No. A commander commands. A company commander is in charge from

11 the observation post. That is not a command. I made you go back three

12 times to tell you that this is not a command. As for meetings, meetings,

13 as such, do not exist; it is a giving out of assignments. An assignment

14 can be issued in the street. Are we going to call that a meeting place or

15 a meeting room, then? No, we are not going to call it that.

16 Q. Sir, you know that a company commander commands by issuing orders

17 from an observation post. Isn't that correct; yes or no?

18 A. No, no.

19 MR. WEINER: May the witness please be shown --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three times you asked me one single

21 question. A company commander is not a komandant, and he does not issue

22 commands and that is not a command post. And that is what you were asking

23 me about.


25 Q. Can a company commander issue commands from an observation post?

Page 13030

1 It's your answer that he cannot. Is that correct?

2 A. A company commander cannot command; he can only issue orders for

3 carrying out a task, an assignment.

4 Q. And you know that he can issue orders from that observation post,

5 and that's where he does it, from his observation post. Isn't that

6 correct?

7 A. Orders, yes.

8 Q. And, in fact, a company commander commands from his observation

9 post. Isn't that correct, sir?

10 A. A company commander commands from his observation post? Or

11 rather, commands, what does this word "commands" mean?

12 Q. He has the --

13 A. He issues orders --

14 Q. He issues orders from his observation post.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And he issues orders in relation to battle actions or actions.

17 Isn't that correct?

18 MR. WEINER: You can sit down. Sorry.

19 A. A company commander conveys orders from the superior command, that

20 is to say that he conveys orders from the superior command.


22 Q. And he also issues tasks from that command post. Isn't that

23 correct?

24 A. No. An observation post is used for coordinating actions, and an

25 observation post can be at a variety of places, depending on the

Page 13031

1 conditions and the situation involved. So he could not command from the

2 observation post because he gets his orders from the superior command on

3 that. He only carries out orders.

4 MR. WEINER: May the witness please be shown a Defence exhibit

5 which is 2D02-0050, at page 0098, which is the JNA infantry company

6 rules. The English is DA09-9255 to DA09-9488. It's page 9 in the

7 English, section 214 in both the English and the B/C/S, on page 0098.

8 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before the witness

9 is given the opportunity to answer this question, before we got the

10 schedule for this witness's testimony, we got a list of documents that

11 would possibly be used by the OTP during his cross-examination; however,

12 this document is not on that list, so I believe that this question cannot

13 be put to him.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.

15 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, this is their document. This is the

16 infantry rules which they supplied to the Office of the Prosecutor.

17 JUDGE PARKER: That doesn't meet the concern of Ms. Tapuskovic,

18 but --

19 MR. WEINER: This --

20 JUDGE PARKER: -- in the Chamber's view, Ms. Tapuskovic, the use of

21 this document clearly flows out of the answers that have just been given

22 by your witness to questions. He is appearing to resort to JNA doctrine

23 to answer the questions, so Mr. Weiner is showing him the infantry

24 doctrine of the JNA. We will find out shortly to what point.

25 So, Mr. Weiner, please continue.

Page 13032

1 MR. WEINER: At page 0098, please. Section 214, it should be a

2 page or two before. 214. Yes. Thank you. Page 97.

3 Q. Section 214: "The observation post of a company/platoon commander

4 is located in a position providing the most advantageous conditions for

5 commanding the units during the attack."

6 Is that what it says there, sir?

7 A. I'm sorry, could you please show me the beginning of the rules,

8 what it says there.

9 Q. But --

10 A. The first page, I mean.

11 MR. WEINER: There's a clearer page.

12 Q. It says: "Rules, Infantry, Mountain Alpine Company-Platoon,

13 1977."

14 MR. WEINER: Can we go back to page 97 --

15 Q. Oh, sorry, did you have a chance to read that?

16 MR. WEINER: Page 97, please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to say something

18 to you. It says here "Rule Company." Is that right? I was a company

19 officer, after all, and I know what my duties and responsibilities were

20 specifically in that position. The rules -- sorry, I'm not a lawyer. I

21 did not prepare for this. I know what the duties and tasks of our unit

22 were. As for this, well, yes, I see it's written there, yes.


24 Q. And can we go to the third paragraph in that rule, and it says: "A

25 company commander commands from his observation post from locations or

Page 13033

1 vehicles travelling behind the front lines/axis platoons from which he can

2 best influence the progress of his subordinates' operations."

3 But you see in the beginning it says: "He commands from his

4 observation post." Isn't that correct, sir?

5 A. I'm sorry. I've just told you, these rules, if I can put it

6 specifically -- I'm not really interested in this. I know what my duties

7 were. I was a company officer.

8 Another thing, you're showing me these rules now. I see it

9 says "Rules" and I see some date, but you prove it to me that this is a

10 reliable document, in view of the situation I had in Belgrade vis-a-vis

11 your colleagues. As far as I'm concerned, these rules -- I was not

12 preparing for this.

13 Q. Sir, the question is: Is that what it says there, sir?

14 A. I told you, I'm not interested in the rule.

15 Q. So, sir, when you said --

16 A. I'm not a lawyer.

17 Q. Sir, when you said a company commander did not command from his

18 observation post, you were wrong. Isn't that correct, sir?

19 A. No. I was right.

20 Q. So the rules of the Yugoslav People's Army, which were supplied to

21 us by the Defence counsel for Captain Radic, are incorrect or wrong?

22 A. No, that's not what I said. I said to you specifically: In view

23 of the situation and in view of these tasks that we had, the rules -- I

24 was not preparing for the rules. I'm not familiar with the rules. I'm

25 not a lawyer. So I would kindly ask you, as far as the rules go, not to

Page 13034

1 put questions of that kind to me anymore, but specifically.

2 Q. Sir, having seen the rules of the army that you belonged to in

3 1991 that a company commander commands from his observation post, will you

4 now accept that a company commander commands from an observation post?

5 Will you accept that?

6 A. Receiving orders and carrying out an order is the same as

7 commanding a company. I used the expression of receiving orders and

8 carrying out orders. I have cautioned you already: I was not preparing

9 for the rules. He received orders and carried them out. You can

10 interpret it any way you want. But he would receive an order and carry

11 out an order, carry it out.

12 Q. Well, sir, you know who Major Tesic is, who was the battalion

13 commander. You know who that person is, don't you?

14 A. No, no -- oh, Tesic, Major Tesic, yes, yes.

15 Q. Would it surprise you that Major Tesic testified in Belgrade that

16 Captain Radic had a command post? Would that surprise you, sir? And that

17 was on 15 December 2004.

18 A. The company commander had an observation post.

19 Q. The question is, sir: Would it surprise you that Major Tesic has

20 testified in a court in Belgrade that Captain Radic had a command post?

21 Would that surprise you, sir?

22 A. Captain Radic had an observation post. The comments of Major

23 Tesic in this particular case -- well, I know that this was an observation

24 post.

25 Q. Sir, do you know who Sasa Bojkovski is?

Page 13035

1 A. A company commander.

2 Q. Would it surprise you that he testified also in Belgrade that

3 Captain Radic had his command on Nova Street? Would that surprise you,

4 sir?

5 A. Captain Radic had an observation post, and you ask Major Tesic and

6 this Captain Bojkovski why they did not read what you are putting to me

7 now.

8 Q. Would it surprise you that it was Captain Bojkovski who

9 recommended to Captain Radic that he should use that particular house, and

10 that's what he stated? And after stating that, he stated that was where

11 his command was. Does that surprise you?

12 A. Would you please be so kind as to repeat this question once again.

13 Q. Would it surprise you that Captain Bojkovski, who, according to

14 his statement, was the person who recommended to Captain Radic that he use

15 that house as his observation post, stated that that was his command?

16 Does that surprise you, too, sir?

17 A. As for this last matter, I'm telling you, yet again, it was an

18 observation post. Now, who was it was who proposed this, I would not like

19 to discuss that, as far as these statements of yours are concerned. It is

20 the company commander who decides where the company station will be, where

21 the observation post will be, where one observation post will be, where

22 another observation post will be, depending on the needs involved.

23 So Company Commander Bojkovski, as you had put it, I don't know

24 what he was doing in our sector, or rather, on our axis. It would be the

25 same as if I were to sit there with you and if I were to teach you your

Page 13036

1 job. Captain Bojkovski had his job -- his company and Captain Radic had

2 his own company, and one should not interfere with the other's work. One

3 knows exactly when one should do what and where.

4 Q. Sir, would it surprise you that a person has testified in this

5 court, at page 10.377, that frequent meetings were held there on the eve

6 of combat actions? Are you denying that, sir?

7 A. Please, could you reformulate this question.

8 Q. Sir, we've had testimony before this Court that frequent meetings

9 were held at that observation post prior to combat actions. Do you deny

10 that?

11 A. I understood the first part about the witness, let's say, but this

12 second part I would like to ask you to specify more concretely which

13 assignment when. That part is not clear to me. The first part is clear

14 to me; the second part is not clear to me.

15 Q. Sir, there has been testimony in this court that frequent meetings

16 were held at that observation post prior to - whether you want to call it

17 combat operations - military actions. Do you deny that?

18 A. That is not correct. There were no meetings at the observation

19 post. I note I'm telling the truth and only the truth, what was. I'm not

20 interested in other witnesses.

21 Q. Not even in the meeting room, sir?

22 A. What do you mean, in the meeting room?

23 Q. In the room on the sketch which Captain Radic drew and

24 designated "in the room where meetings were held"? So no meetings were

25 held in that room, sir?

Page 13037

1 A. Meetings in the sense of meetings, no. I mentioned this before.

2 This was a company station. If Captain Radic called me, or Lieutenant

3 Hadzic, and asked us to sit and to look at the decision, then you can

4 understand that as a meeting, but as a meeting with his subordinates. But

5 actually meetings were held at another place.

6 Q. Sir, there's also been testimony that that observation post was a

7 headquarters, an operations headquarters, for the military actions

8 occurring in the area. Do you deny that, too?

9 A. You mean our observation post? It was an observation post, not a

10 command post, and there were no meetings held there and nobody came to the

11 meetings.

12 Q. A person who stayed there and was a member of that company has

13 testified that daily meetings were held at that observation post. Do you

14 deny that, too?

15 A. That it was an observation post, yes; as for meetings being held

16 there an a daily basis, no. Specifically, meetings of the company

17 commander were held at the battalion command located in the Svetozara

18 Markovica Street. Perhaps you didn't know that, but let me tell you.

19 That's where the meetings were held and that's where --

20 Q. Sir, the question was -- sir, the question was: Do you deny it;

21 yes or no?

22 A. I deny that there were meetings. There were no meetings at our

23 observation post.

24 Q. That same person who lived there and was a member of your company

25 has testified that plans for the following day's combat actions were

Page 13038

1 decided at these meetings. Are you denying that testimony, too?

2 A. Could you please repeat the first part of the question.

3 Q. That same person who lived there and was a member of your company

4 had testified that plans for the following day's combat actions were

5 decided at these meetings. Are you denying that testimony, too, sir?

6 A. I don't know what to say about that testimony. On his return from

7 the battalion command, Captain Radic, in that meeting, would decide, on

8 the basis of the working map, and plan the activities for the following

9 day. Earlier, you say the person living there, that he was a member, or

10 rather, a member of our unit. No. Captain Radic, when he received an

11 assignment, would there use a lamp and plan and organise actions for the

12 following day.

13 Q. Another member of your company has testified that daily meetings

14 were held at that observation post and that Captain Radic had the final

15 say on those combat matters. Are you denying that testimony, too?

16 A. I would like to ask you to explain to me who were the persons he

17 had the meetings with so that I would be able to give you a specific

18 answer.

19 Q. First my question and then we can go into private session. But

20 first my question: Another member of that company has testified that

21 meetings were held there on a daily basis and that Captain Radic had the

22 final say.

23 A. First, meetings were not held there. Captain Radic could not have

24 had the final say. In relation to whom, I don't know. But I know that

25 Captain Radic would study the assignment he received from the battalion

Page 13039

1 command on his return from meetings that were held regularly in the

2 evening. So he would go over the assignments himself for purposes of

3 security.

4 Q. One more witness, and then we'll go into private session and ask

5 you the question --

6 JUDGE PARKER: One more witness and we must have the break, Mr.

7 Weiner.

8 MR. WEINER: Would you like to have the break now before I --

9 JUDGE PARKER: It would be appropriate.

10 MR. WEINER: Okay. I apologise. I wasn't watching the time.

11 JUDGE PARKER: We must now adjourn because the tapes are running

12 out. We'll resume in 20 minutes.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.38 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Sir, a Defence witness for Mr. Mrksic, who's not associated with

18 those three other witnesses that we mentioned, has testified that meetings

19 were held at that house and he even attended one. First question: Do you

20 know who Dusan Jaskic was?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you recall a Mr. Dusan Jaskic, who was from Vukovar, the

23 Petrova Gora area, who was tied to the TO?

24 A. No, I don't know the name. The first and the last name are not

25 familiar.

Page 13040

1 Q. So you were never present in the house when Mr. Jaskic visited and

2 attended a meeting there. Is that correct?

3 A. The observation post is a place where the commander of the company

4 is. So how can I explain it to you? It's not a railway station. It's

5 not a room where anybody can pass through. It's an observation post.

6 It's not possible for anybody to enter whenever they want. So those who

7 were not part of our group, who were not our JNA soldiers or had no

8 contacts with Captain Radic, wouldn't be there.

9 Q. Mr. Jaskic also testified that Captain Radic would discuss plans

10 with soldiers there. Do you deny that, too?

11 A. Captain Radic, from what I recall, did not have contact with

12 people at the observation post who were not part of our group, especially

13 not with the gentleman whom you just named. I don't know him.

14 Q. Sir, you just said, from what you recall. You were not always at

15 that location. Isn't that correct?

16 A. During those five, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, when I went

17 to the other company station, I don't believe that anybody could come and

18 have meetings or make plans. The time would be too short for an assertion

19 that you are making. Well, I was away from the observation post for five

20 or 15 minutes at the most, from the observation post, because that's where

21 the materiel was, there, that could possibly be subject to theft; weapons,

22 ammunition. I had to be there.

23 Q. Sir, so on a daily basis, seven days a week, you were away from

24 the observation post ten -- between five and 15 minutes a day? So you

25 were at the observation post 23 hours and 45 minutes every day? Is that

Page 13041

1 what you're trying to say?

2 A. As you said, 23 hours is a lot at a stretch, but I was never away

3 at any point for longer than that. Perhaps at some point I could go to

4 the toilet or something, I don't know. But I was never absent for 23

5 hours, as you said, from the observation post.

6 Q. No, sir. I'm saying it's your testimony that you were at the

7 observation post for 23 hours and 45 minutes per day, apparently seven

8 days a week.

9 A. I would like to ask you to be more specific with this question.

10 Q. I'm being very specific, sir. You said you were at the

11 observation -- you were away from the observation post between five and 15

12 minutes a day. So I just want to get your testimony down. Are you

13 claiming you were at that observation post 23 hours and 45 minutes per

14 day, every day?

15 A. This, again, is not clear to me. But I was carrying out

16 assignments. In the course of the day, Captain Radic would go out for

17 combat, and perhaps at the time he was at the other observation post. But

18 this was still a company station. But he might go still to another place

19 during the day. Wherever the commander of the company was, that's where

20 the observation post was. But this observation post would then switch

21 locations depending on the combat actions.

22 Q. Sir, we're speaking not about multiple observation posts; we're

23 speaking about one particular post, the post of Stanko's father or Stanko

24 Vujanovic's family, the family compound. That's the only one, not the

25 others. And you know you were away from there at various times during the

Page 13042

1 day. You were supplying -- you were going to Negoslavci for supplies; you

2 were going to the other observation post; you were meeting with other

3 soldiers. You were away from there during the day and, on occasion, in

4 evenings, too. Isn't that correct?

5 A. 23 hours and 45 minutes I was at the observation post, as you

6 said, or I was away for that amount of time during the day. I didn't

7 understand that part before. That's what's the matter.

8 Q. All right. The last time I'll ask it: You said you were only

9 away from the observation post between five and 15 minutes a day. So are

10 you saying you were there for 23 hours and 45 minutes a day, every day?

11 Is that what you're saying?

12 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours, before

13 the witness responds to the answer, we have been talking about 23 hours

14 and 45 minutes. On page 59, line 22, the witness said that perhaps he was

15 away for five, ten, 15, or 20 minutes. So perhaps, then, we could keep in

16 mind the answer of the witness and then make the time delineation and then

17 see, on the basis of that, how we could determine the actual amount of

18 time, and not just stick to 23 hours and 45 minutes.

19 MR. WEINER: At the suggestion of Defence counsel, I'll switch to

20 23 hours and 40 minutes.

21 Q. Is that what you're saying, that you were at that house 23 hours

22 and 40 minutes a day, sir?

23 A. I don't know the exact time. I mean, I had assignments; I've

24 already said that. So I wasn't really counting. But what you're asking

25 me, this time-period, 23 hours and 45 minutes, Captain Radic was not at

Page 13043

1 that place, he was not at that observation post. What I said was that

2 nobody, especially not the gentleman whom you named, came there.

3 So it's impossible for me to be at the company station and Captain

4 Radic to be in action and then, as you say, to have meetings organised.

5 Who could these meetings have been organised with when Captain Radic was

6 on combat actions? That's why I don't see there how much time I spent

7 there in the course of the day, because everybody had assignments,

8 activities.

9 Q. Sir, if you weren't there 24 hours a day, you can't state what

10 happened while you were away, can you?

11 A. I can say something about the time that I did spend there at the

12 observation post, so I'm talking about that time. And the gentleman whom

13 you mentioned did not come to these, as you say, meetings. I do not know

14 the gentleman, and no one actually came there.

15 Q. But, sir, as you said, since you weren't there, you can't state

16 what happened while you were away from that observation post.

17 A. I was away from the observation post during the morning, mostly,

18 for two to three hours at the most. That's when combat actions were being

19 conducted, and Captain Radic was not at the observation post then. It's

20 not possible for him to be in two places at the same time, in combat and

21 at the observation post to hold meetings. So during the time that I spent

22 there, I did not see them there. And I'm also asserting that nobody came

23 there. It was a unit, after all, and not everyone could just come and

24 enter.

25 Q. So, sir, if we'd summarise this, it's your testimony that all

Page 13044

1 these other people, including those who were not even related to each

2 other, who testified about the meetings being held there, are all wrong;

3 that's your testimony?

4 A. I'm speaking for myself and what I saw. I cannot say anything

5 about others. Anyone is free to say whatever they want. I'm telling you

6 what I saw.

7 Q. Well, you've been telling us what you saw and what you've

8 recalled. You were in Vukovar for almost two months. Isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes, you could say that. A little bit less than two months.

10 Q. And I think it's fair to say that it was a stressful time for

11 you.

12 A. Yes, it was -- combat actions were going on.

13 Q. And you were quite young at the time.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And I think you can agree that it wasn't a happy occasion for you,

16 to be there.

17 A. I was there under orders. As to whether it was a happy occasion

18 or not ...

19 Q. Well, sir, people were being killed; people were being injured;

20 there was firing or shooting. That's not a happy occasion, is it, sir?

21 A. I would just like to say -- to go back to that part that was in

22 private session. I told you what my qualifications were, what school I

23 completed. It was a school with a name and it had something to teach us;

24 amongst other things, precisely what you said, how to overcome stressful

25 situations, how to deal with that, and so on and so forth. I'm a

Page 13045

1 professional in my work. I was a professional then and I'm more of a

2 professional now, with more experience.

3 Q. And would you agree, sir, that it was a stressful situation and

4 it's not something that you want to think about regularly, that time back

5 in Vukovar. Isn't that correct?

6 A. That event in itself is not a pleasant one, no.

7 Q. And you don't think or talk about that on a regular basis. Isn't

8 that correct, sir?

9 A. Since that year, this is now the first time that I'm talking about

10 it. I thought -- when you sent me the questions, the question that

11 referred to the waiver on keeping military secrets, so it started from

12 there.

13 Q. This is the second or third time today you said, "When you sent me

14 the questions." Are you referring to me in particular? Are you saying

15 that I sent you something?

16 A. Perhaps you misunderstood. What I meant was the Prosecutor's

17 office. Not you personally, but the Prosecutor's office. I'm seeing you

18 for the first time yesterday and today.

19 Q. Now, sir, you said, "Since that year, this is now the first time

20 that I'm talking about." So after Vukovar, you didn't speak to your

21 fellow soldiers about that; isn't that correct? Meaning your experiences

22 in Vukovar, you weren't talking about it regularly.

23 A. No. It was an event. The combat actions finished. Things went

24 on as they did. I continued with my military career until this point,

25 until two days ago when I received the questions, and this is when this

Page 13046

1 was re-activated.

2 Q. Now, sir, you were very young and I would assume that you didn't

3 maintain a diary while you were in Vukovar as to what occurred each day?

4 A. To tell you the truth, I did not keep a diary before, as a child;

5 I don't keep a diary now. I'm talking about myself.

6 Q. Nor, I assume, have you kept a calendar or any sort of records of

7 what occurred each day, whether it's writing notes in a calendar or

8 writing notes of any kind. Isn't that correct?

9 A. No, I didn't have a calendar. I don't know what dates on a

10 calendar would mean to you. That doesn't mean anything to me.

11 Q. Okay. And having not kept any sort of calendar or diary and

12 having not discussed this matter in almost 15 years, would it be fair to

13 say that you're relying strictly on your memory as to times, dates,

14 places, happenings? Isn't that correct, sir?

15 A. To tell you the truth, I'm happy that that's the way it is and

16 that I still rely on my memory and on my knowledge.

17 Q. Now, I have one final question. I wrote a note to myself while

18 you were testifying about the observation post. You said that you kept

19 the ammunition there; that's why -- it was another reason you had to be

20 there. Is that your testimony, you kept it at the observation post?

21 JUDGE PARKER: I think it was the other observation post, Mr.

22 Weiner, two of them, two different streets.

23 MR. WEINER: I'm --

24 JUDGE PARKER: Maybe that needs to be clarified.

25 MR. WEINER: Can I ask -- yes.

Page 13047

1 Q. Sir, can you tell us: Where did you keep the ammunition?

2 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as for what the

3 witness's task was exactly is something that we discussed in private

4 session, so I would like to ask my colleague that, if he wants to deal

5 with that, if he wants to follow that line of questioning, that we move

6 into private session.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

8 MR. WEINER: That's fine.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 13048











11 Pages 13048-13051 redacted. Private session.















Page 13052

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in public session, Your Honours.


4 Q. Sir, you testified that you went to the hospital on November 19th,

5 1991. Isn't that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you went there with Captain Radic.

8 A. Captain Radic and the rest of the troops and Lieutenant Hadzic.

9 Q. And you claim to have gone there on orders from Major Tesic.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you testified that you were in Captain Radic's presence when

12 he received a notice to go there from Captain Tesic. Isn't that correct?

13 A. He did not receive notice; he received an order. I think that

14 these two concepts are very important.

15 Q. Sir, the Defence is required to file summaries of your anticipated

16 testimony. In the first summary, there is no indication that you were

17 present when Captain Radic allegedly received that order. Are you aware

18 of that?

19 A. I don't know about that. I haven't read that.

20 Q. Did you tell the Defence that --

21 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] One moment. I'm sorry, Your

22 Honours. Just a moment. Before me now I have the first summary of the

23 Defence that was submitted to the Court on the 11th of July, if I remember

24 correctly. Item 4 says: "The witness, after the fall of Vukovar,

25 together with the accused Miroslav Radic and some members of their

Page 13053

1 company, went to the Vukovar hospital." Thank you.

2 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'm asking him specifically about

3 alleged orders by Captain Radic -- I'm sorry, Major Tesic which he claims

4 he was present for.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Present when a radio message was received on a

6 Motorola.

7 MR. WEINER: Yes.



10 Q. Did you previously provide that information to the Defence, that

11 you were present when Captain Radic received an order from Major Tesic to

12 secure the hospital?

13 A. That evening, I do not remember. I was tired when we first met

14 here.

15 Q. Well, prior to that, if we go to the second statement on July

16 31st, 2006, again, there is no indication that you ever told -- I'm sorry,

17 you were ever present with Captain Radic when he allegedly received an

18 order from Major Tesic to secure the hospital. Are you certain that you

19 told -- or do you know whether you told the Defence at some later time

20 about that incident?

21 A. Could I ask you to repeat the date for me, please.

22 Q. Sure, sir. That's July 31st, 2006.

23 A. May I just take a piece of paper from here?

24 Q. Sure.

25 A. As for all events in Vukovar, from the 13th of September, the

Page 13054

1 lawyer, Mr. Borovic, and the Defence could talk about all of that to me

2 and you could talk from the 28th onwards, from the moment when I was

3 granted the waiver. As for this date that you gave in July, I don't know

4 who it was that I talked to, because after the 13th of September I could

5 make a statement and communicate with someone. In July, I did not have

6 the paper.

7 Q. So you know -- you have no idea who provided any of the

8 information in your anticipated testimony sheets or basically with regard

9 to the summaries of your anticipated summary? You have no idea who

10 provided this information?

11 A. Let us say that the first meeting with the people from the Defence

12 was when I arrived, only in the evening.

13 Q. Sir, in the most recent proofing notes dated 12 October 2006, the

14 only mention of Major Tesic is, I quote, "that he saw Major Tesic in front

15 of the hospital." Again, my question is: Did you ever say to anyone that

16 you were present when Major Tesic contacted Radic and ordered him to go to

17 the hospital?

18 A. If you mean the date that you mentioned to me, no.

19 Q. Well, sir, is it possible that you went to the hospital on

20 November 18th?

21 A. I am sorry, but what hospital? Who are you talking about? Are

22 you talking about me or somebody else?

23 Q. Is it possible you went to the Vukovar Hospital on November 18th,

24 sir?

25 A. No, the 19th.

Page 13055

1 Q. Sir, since you were in Negoslavci on the 18th, you don't know

2 whether or not Captain Radic also went there on the 18th. Isn't that

3 correct?

4 A. The first units that crossed the Vuka was that group headed by

5 Captain Radic, Lieutenant Hadzic, I, and the soldiers, on the 19th of

6 November. So that was the first crossing, across the Vuka in the

7 direction of the hospital, and in terms of arriving at the hospital.

8 Q. Sir, Captain Sasa Bojkovski, who is another company commander, has

9 given a statement indicating that he went to the hospital and saw Captain

10 Radic and it was either November 17th or 18th. Does that refresh your

11 recollection that Captain Radic was there on the 18th?

12 A. Well, if you're trying to impose something, you cannot. On the

13 19th, we entered the area of the hospital, on the 19th in the morning

14 hours. What Bojkovski did and what you are saying, I don't know about

15 that. I know that our unit was given the task on the 19th, and on the

16 19th the hospital was secured.

17 Q. Sir, Major Tesic has given a statement at the court in Belgrade

18 that Radic was not at that hospital pursuant to his orders but, rather,

19 Radic was at that hospital in violation of his orders. Does that surprise

20 you?

21 A. I would not like to use any other kind of vocabulary now, but I

22 know that Captain Radic received orders from Major Tesic. I would not

23 like to comment upon anyone's statements. I know what it was that I heard

24 and what it was that was ordered.

25 Q. Would you agree, sir, that Captain Tesic was in a much better

Page 13056

1 position than you to know what his orders were?

2 A. I know what it was that I heard and what it was that was ordered.

3 Also, Captain Radic knows what he heard and what order he received.

4 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I was going to go into another area in

5 relation to the hospital. Would it be best to break now?

6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it becomes necessary because of the hour. The

7 evidence will have to continue on Monday, at 2.15.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of

10 October, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.