Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13581

 1                          Friday, 27 October 2006

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The accused Sljivancanin takes the stand]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Lukic.

 7            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

 8    morning to all the participants in the proceedings.

 9            Before we proceed, I should like to enter a correction in

10    yesterday's transcript.  At the very end of the testimony, when I asked

11    Mr. Sljivancanin about the talk that he had with Colonel Mrksic, which is

12    page 87 of the working transcript, from line 2 to line 17,

13    Mr. Sljivancanin first spoke in the first person and then in the third

14    person.  So in order not to read the entire passage, we, in the courtroom,

15    are quite clear on who was saying what and what Mr. Mrksic was being

16    saying and what was being interpreted by Mr. Sljivancanin.

17            So from line 5 to line 17, there should be quotation marks only in

18    that passage, which is the portion where Mr. Sljivancanin quotes the words

19    of Mr. Mrksic.  If there is any dispute about that, I shall ask Mr.

20    Sljivancanin to repeat.  When he says, "I had a talk with the principal,

21    with the directress of the hospital, he is obviously interpreting the

22    words, relaying the words, of Mr. Mrksic.  I believe that there is no

23    doubt about that so that there is no need to ask Mr. Sljivancanin any

24    further clarifying questions.

25            The second thing I should like to say has to do with --

Page 13582

 1            MR. MOORE:  I see Mr. Lukic looking at me.  The only thing that I

 2    would have suggested, with the utmost of respect, it's probably wiser and

 3    more prudent for Mr. Sljivancanin to be asked the question again and we

 4    know exactly then what is being said, rather than speculating.  That was

 5    all.

 6                          WITNESS:  VESELIN SLJIVANCANIN [Resumed]

 7                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                          Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

 9       Q.   Mr. Sljivancanin, let us then clarify this first.  Will you tell

10    us what Mr. Mrksic told you when you returned to Negoslavci, having toured

11    Vukovar with Mr. Vance.  But when you speak, don't speak in the first

12    person, or do specify when you are quoting, for the transcript.

13       A.   Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning all.

14            Upon finishing -- the finish of the visit by Mr. Vance, I returned

15    to the command post.  I reported to the commander that Vance had left our

16    zone with the delegation.  On that occasion, Commander Mrksic told me that

17    the units of the 1st Militarised Battalion had passed across the bridges

18    on the River Vuka and had entered the sector where the buildings of the

19    Vukovar Hospital and of the Vukovar MUP were.  He said that he had talked

20    with the director, lady director, of the hospital and that he had promised

21    help to the hospital.  He said that -- he asked me, he actually asked me,

22    to look for and find the representatives of the International Red Cross,

23    with whom I was frequently cooperating, and to see how much medical

24    supplies they could give to the hospital and to take them there.  And he

25    also told me to see whether there were any of our soldiers, captured

Page 13583

 1    soldiers there.  He told me to analyse security issues, which I'm not

 2    going to enumerate right now, and I believe that he said to me that

 3    General Zivota Panic -- or that I was to call him by phone, or he actually

 4    told me personally that I should look for Dr. Gordana Antic in the

 5    hospital and to send her on the first transport, as quickly as possible,

 6    to Sid.

 7       Q.   Thank you.

 8            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Prior to proceeding with the

 9    examination, two other matters which I still have to clarify from

10    yesterday related to Mr. Sljivancanin's answers from the beginning of the

11    session, as far as his perception of the OG South is concerned.  And we

12    asked Witness Trifunovic, on the 5th of May, 2006; the pages in the

13    transcript are 8332 and 8333.  I also asked representatives of the OTP, as

14    this morning we received another four translations into the B/C/S language

15    from them, whether they can personally give those documents to

16    Mr. Sljivancanin - yes, I see that they are ready - so that he can

17    familiarise himself with them.

18       Q.   And finally, Mr. Sljivancanin, now I'm talking to you, I suppose

19    that you also would like us to efficiently transact this business, deal

20    with this part today, so please be so kind as to give us very precise and

21    brief answers so that we can deal with these topics which are highly

22    relevant to your defence.  So give us brief descriptions and just give us

23    the material, the important things.

24            So my next question is:  What did you do after that?  Where did

25    you go, and did you go with someone?

Page 13584

 1       A.   I went to the sector of my building in Negoslavci and I issued a

 2    task that Mr. Borsinger be found.  When he was found, I had a talk with

 3    him in which he said that currently he had a small lorry with medical

 4    supplies and that he could help me out with that and that we should go to

 5    the hospital.  So we agreed and we set out towards the hospital.

 6       Q.   Together?

 7       A.   No.  I was in my vehicle, he was in his vehicle, and there was

 8    this small lorry, so it was a small column.

 9       Q.   Before we go on, one question:  You heard the testimony given

10    before this Court to the effect that approximately on that day, at that

11    time, there was a meeting in Negoslavci.  You saw written evidence between

12    Colonels Pavkovic and Loncar and Misevic and Mr. Kypr and Mr. Schou, i.e.,

13    these two representatives of the European Community.  Tell me briefly,

14    were you at that meeting?  Did you know that that meeting was being held

15    in Negoslavci at that time?

16       A.   No, I did not attend that meeting.  The first time I learned about

17    that meeting having been held was when I came here to the Detention Unit

18    and when I received materials from the OTP and heard testimonies of the

19    witnesses Kypr and Schou here.

20       Q.   Did you, on the 19th of November, have any direct or any other

21    contact through signals communication with representatives of the European

22    Monitoring Mission?

23       A.   On the 19th of November, I only had encounters with the delegation

24    that came with Mr. Vance and with Mr. Borsinger.  As regards other

25    European monitors or ICRC representatives, no, I had no contacts with

Page 13585

 1    anybody else.

 2       Q.   Did you, and if so, ever hear of the Zagreb agreement here in this

 3    courtroom of the 18th of November which was concluded between Mr. Hebrang

 4    and Raseta?

 5       A.   I heard about that agreement for the first time here in the

 6    Tribunal, at The Hague, and I saw it here for the first time as well.

 7       Q.   During the developments in Vukovar, did you know that there was

 8    some negotiations being conducted in Zagreb, the outcome of which was that

 9    agreement?  Had anybody informed you about that?

10       A.   No, never.  I had never heard about those negotiations.  At the

11    time, I was just the chief of security of the Guards Brigade and I had no

12    way of knowing about such negotiations being held.

13       Q.   When, approximately, did you arrive at the hospital?  What time of

14    day was it?  And what happened thereafter?  Whom did you see?

15       A.   We arrived at the hospital, after having to negotiate the

16    obstacles on the road which were being cleared by engineer machinery.  As

17    far as I can recall, it was in the afternoon.  Whether it was 3.00 or 4.00

18    p.m., I cannot say with precision, but it was definitely one hour prior to

19    nightfall, because one could see; there was visibility.

20            At the gate to the hospital, at the entrance to the yard of the

21    hospital, I met with the commander of the 1st Motorised Battalion, Major

22    Borivoje Tesic, and the commander of the 2nd Military Police Battalion,

23    Radoje Paunovic.

24       Q.   What happened then?

25       A.   Radoje Paunovic is the name of the commander of the 2nd Battalion

Page 13586

 1    of the military police.  They briefed me very briefly that the commander

 2    of the military police had been given the task by the commander to assume

 3    security; that there were many civilians in the hospital; that they had

 4    found outfits, clothing, equipment, bombs, weapons, in and outside the

 5    hospital; and they drew my attention to the fact that I should not go into

 6    the cellars or the corridors of the hospital because it wasn't safe until

 7    full security measures were established.

 8       Q.   When you say "clothing," what did you mean?  What did they find?

 9       A.   They found, and they showed me, camouflage uniforms, soldiers'

10    camouflage uniforms.  Mr. Borsinger was with me all the time.  I don't

11    remember that he had an interpreter at the time; I don't know whether he

12    understood it all, everything that we were saying.  But I do know that

13    both I and Mr. Borsinger suggested that civilians should go to Velepromet

14    so that they would be assigned to the different centres or to places where

15    they should be.  And they told me that they had found a shelter where the

16    staff of the National Guards Corps and their commander was, that it was

17    mined; and they also told me that they had found large numbers of bodies,

18    of corpses, human corpses, in another street, in a street opposite the

19    hospital.

20            They proposed that they take me to the office of the hospital lady

21    director, and from there we went to the cellar together, to the entrance

22    which is quite well known, the one where the wounded were taken in and out

23    of the hospital, and we went straight to the office of Mrs. Vesna Bosanac.

24       Q.   You were speaking in plural.  Who was with you all the time?  Let

25    us be precise.

Page 13587

 1       A.   Major Tesic, Major Paunovic, and Mr. Borsinger were with me.

 2       Q.   You can go on.

 3       A.   At that time I took a very hard -- I was introduced to Madam

 4    Bosanac.  I asked her if she was faced with any problems and I told her

 5    that we had brought medicaments for the hospital.  I also asked her

 6    whether -- I said, "Are there any of our soldiers here?"  Mrs. Vesna

 7    Bosanac, more or less, said this to me, in answering, she said that

 8    contrary to her approval, a large number of civilians had arrived at the

 9    hospital, as well as other people whom she didn't know, and she said that

10    this was obstructing their further work of treatment of the wounded.  She

11    said that there were three of our soldiers at the hospital, that they were

12    undergoing treatment and that if I wanted, I could see them.

13            Then I asked her if she knew that civilians were supposed to go to

14    Velepromet, to which she responded that she knew that and that she had

15    drawn their attention to that and that it was precisely there that some

16    women were.  And she actually introduced a woman to me whose name,

17    however, I've forgotten and cannot recall at this point.  She introduced

18    her as an activist of the Red Cross who was working on having the

19    civilians led in an organised fashion from the hospital to Velepromet for

20    the purpose of the further evacuation.

21            After that, we went to see our soldiers.  When one goes out of her

22    office - and I remember that very well - we took the lift in the corridor,

23    because the office is right at the entrance to the cellars of that

24    building.  So we took a lift [as interpreted] corridor, arrived at a large

25    room which was full of wounded people, among whom I recognised also

Page 13588

 1    Sergeant Ljubic [as interpreted].  I said hello to him and the other two

 2    soldiers and another two soldiers.  Mrs. Vesna Bosanac was there as well.

 3    Tesic might also have been with me, but I know for a fact that Borsinger

 4    did not enter that room.  On that occasion Jovic told me, he said,

 5     "Comrade Major, please don't go any further.  There is a large number of

 6    masked members of the National Guards Corps here," and he pointed to a

 7    corner where there were three people in white overalls and he said that

 8    they were disguised.  He said that people also had weapons, in particular,

 9    bombs.

10            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, the 17th line, it says

11    "lift corridor" and you said "left corridor."  You said "Sergeant Jovic"

12    and it is "Ljubic" in the transcript.  I believe that was later corrected.

13    And the quotation marks are properly placed here.

14       Q.   Thank you.  We can go on.

15       A.   So we stayed there for a short time.  It was very difficult.  It

16    was very distressing for me, especially having to see so many wounded

17    people and seeing that we had all those problems that we have gone through

18    together.

19            So I returned with Mrs. Vesna Bosanac again to her office.  In

20    front of the door, there was already a group of people waiting, a group of

21    men and women in white coats waiting.  They all wanted to know when the

22    evacuation would be and all of them wanted to say something to me.  So all

23    of them had something to tell me.

24            For the most part, what they were telling me, first, there were

25    people that were saying they wanted to cooperate with the JNA, that they

Page 13589

 1    were hiding at the hospital --

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  No, sorry, interpreter's correction:  That

 3    members of the National Guards Corps and of the MUP were hiding at the

 4    hospital.

 5       A.   They never helped them.  And even some weapons had been introduced

 6    into the hospital.  At that time I met a man, whose name I did not

 7    remember at the time, who introduced himself as the director of surgery -

 8    this is what he said - and he said that he had performed surgery on our

 9    soldiers, that he had helped them, and that he wanted to help.  And he

10    also added that pressure had been exerted on him; that the night before he

11    had to dress wounds and put dressings on healthy people and plaster casts

12    and that he would be showing to us who these people were.

13            Later in the morning, when I arrived, I found that his name was

14    Dr. Njavro Gjuro, or rather, Gjuro Njavro.  I told him, "Okay, we are

15    going to discuss this."  I wanted to cooperate with him.  I entered the

16    office of Dr. Vesna Bosanac where I found another person, another man.  I

17    wanted to talk to Dr. Vesna Bosanac tete-a-tete about the information that

18    I had learned in the corridor, and I asked this man to leave the office.

19            Before that, I forgot to say, when I arrived at the gate, when I

20    was introduced -- when the -- sorry, when the commanders of the units told

21    me what the situation in the hospital was like and what one could see

22    there, I also asked that my assistant commander for counter-intelligence

23    work, Mladen Karan, be called to come there.  And now when I was entering

24    for the second time this office, he appeared at the door.

25            Mrs. Vesna Bosanac said to me, "It's not just anybody, it's

Page 13590

 1    Mr. Marin Vidic, Bili, the commissioner of the Croatian government for the

 2    town of Vukovar, and he should remain in the office."  I agreed with her.

 3    We had a brief talk there and I asked her, or rather, I asked whether Dr.

 4    Gordana Antic is there and she said that yes, she was there, and I asked

 5    her to have her called in.  She called one of her employees and asked her

 6    to find her.  I said that they should take the medicine.  And in Vesna

 7    Bosanac's office, I left my assistant commander and Mr. Borsinger stayed

 8    there as well.

 9            I went further on.  Vesna Bosanac followed me.  I told her that it

10    wasn't necessary for her to accompany me because I would go with Major

11    Paunovic, so she went back from this entrance into the hospital.  We went

12    out through the different entrance.  When you go right from her office and

13    then straight ahead, I think that's the main entrance.

14            Paunovic took me to see that shelter where the headquarters had

15    been of the National Guards Corps.  I could just see it from the outside

16    because we noticed that the shelter had been mined and that there were

17    quite a few booby-traps.  I remembered that the entrance was between two

18    make-shift buildings.  It was made of concrete.  And in front there was an

19    armoured Mercedes that was a bit damaged, but what remains striking in my

20    memory is that it had foreign licence plates.  I think they were German

21    but I cannot be sure of that.

22            I said to Paunovic that they should be increasingly alert, that

23    soldiers should not touch this, and that they should not enter the shelter

24    until the engineering units come in and demine it.  So we did not take

25    anything or see anything except from the outside, and then we returned to

Page 13591

 1    the hospital once again.

 2            Again, I talked to Dr. Bosanac.  I asked her about lists of

 3    wounded, injured persons.  She showed me some papers that she got out of

 4    the drawer.  They were quite messy.  There were some names on the lists

 5    and then there weren't any on others, and so on.  She explained that it

 6    was difficult, in a situation of war and in the situation that they were

 7    in, to keep all papers in proper order.

 8            I told my assistant commander for counter-intelligence to check

 9    all these papers, to check these lists, and to see whether we can find out

10    who is in the hospital and how many wounded there are.  Then Dr. Antic

11    arrived.  I had wished to talk to her in Vesna's office.  She asked me to

12    go outside to conduct this conversation.  I went out in front of the

13    hospital with her, we were on our own, and we talked.  She also said that

14    she wanted to help and do whatever she could.  I told her that I was

15    called by the general and that he asked me to get her to Sid during the

16    night.  She asked me whether I could make it possible for her to go

17    straight to Hungary rather than Sid.  I told her that I really didn't have

18    the authority to do that, and I told her the only thing I could do was

19    have her transported to Sid.  She thought about it a bit and she said that

20    that evening she did not want to leave, and that in the morning she would

21    decide what she would do afterwards.  I went along with her wish.

22            After that, I returned -- or rather, I don't know whether I went

23    back to the office, but I found Major Paunovic there.  Mr. Borsinger went

24    out.  And it was almost dark by then.  I made an offer to Mr. Borsinger.

25    I asked him whether he wanted to come with me and see these corpses that

Page 13592

 1    the commanders had told me about, and what he told -- what he said to me,

 2    roughly, as far as I can remember, was that he was in a hurry; that he had

 3    seen everything he was interested in in the hospital and that he had to

 4    arrive in Belgrade, I don't know, that he had some engagements there and

 5    that he could not go and see that with me then.  He asked me when the

 6    evacuation of the hospital would start.  I said to him that that would

 7    probably start on the following day, at daybreak, immediately.

 8       Q.   I have a question.  On that day, were you informed, or was anybody

 9    else informed, that Mr. Borsinger had any objections to the way the army

10    was behaving that day in the hospital; yes or no?

11       A.   There were no objections.

12       Q.   You've already given an answer but I wanted to be precise.  Did

13    Borsinger object to anything regarding this proposal and agreement that

14    the civilians should go to Velepromet?

15       A.   He did not object.  As a matter of fact, he suggested that the

16    hospital be emptied and that the civilians go, so they would be evacuated

17    as soon as possible, because their people were on the ground all the time.

18       Q.   On that afternoon, and then we're going to talk about the next

19    day, did Borsinger ever mention to you the concept of neutrality of the

20    hospital?

21       A.   I did not hear about that and I did not talk about that to him.

22       Q.   During that afternoon, evening or night, at any point in time did

23    you come to the hospital again?

24       A.   No.  In the evening, when I went back, I did not go back to the

25    hospital.

Page 13593

 1       Q.   Did Borsinger ask you or did you hear him ask from anyone -- ask

 2    anyone else that they remain in the hospital that night?

 3       A.   No, he did not ask for that.  As a matter of fact, he asked to

 4    leave because he said he had other engagements.

 5       Q.   Just a moment.  Let me see whether there are any interventions or

 6    any suggestions.

 7            Would you just be as precise as possible.  What did Borsinger say

 8    to you about Velepromet?  Were his teams there or not?  Can you be more

 9    precise about that.

10       A.   Borsinger suggested to Vesna Bosanac, Mrs. Vesna Bosanac, that

11    civilians should go to Velepromet because that is where their teams were.

12    And they were there on the first day and on that day and they were

13    following the evacuation of civilians.

14       Q.   Thank you.  Can we see what happened after you left the hospital?

15       A.   I went with Major Paunovic and I saw many corpses in that street

16    where he pointed them out to me.  I found it very hard to see that.  It

17    was almost nightfall by then.  I went back.  I called my assistant,

18    Karan.  He told me that he had taken some papers, some lists, the ones

19    that I told him about, but he also told me that he saw that Mrs. Vesna

20    Bosanac had given some lists to Mr. Borsinger that were far tidier than

21    the ones that we had had.  I said, "All right, then.  Fine."  I don't know

22    whether he had found any other material there.  I cannot recall all the

23    details right now.

24            I asked Mr. Paunovic, the commander of the 2nd Battalion of the

25    military police, to bring to Negoslavci Mrs. Vesna Bosanac and Mr. Marin

Page 13594

 1    Vidic so that we could have a talk.  Then I returned to Negoslavci with my

 2    vehicle and I was waiting -- or rather, first I went to see the commander.

 3       Q.   Just a moment.  Now I'm just going to put a few things to you that

 4    you had heard yourself in this courtroom.  On page 683 of the transcript

 5    of the 27th of October, Mrs. Bosanac says that, on that day, you came to

 6    the hospital twice and that you came with Borsinger during the night.

 7    Just tell us, without a comment, yes or no; is that correct?

 8       A.   That's not correct.  I told you in detail, I made an effort to

 9    tell you all the things that I did in the hospital at that time.

10            THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Lukic please not speak at the same

11    time at the witness.

12            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   On page 1021, on transcript page from the 11th of October --

14    November.  1521.  I do apologise to the interpreters.  Mr. Njavro

15    testified that he saw you on the 18th of November, around 1300 hours, with

16    Mr. Borsinger in front of the hospital; is that correct?  Were you by the

17    hospital on that day?

18       A.   That is sheer nonsense.  There are video recordings as to where I

19    was on the 18th of November.  I first came to the hospital on the

20    afternoon of the 19th.

21       Q.   A few witnesses, P22 and P009, mention that on that afternoon,

22    when they came to the area in front of the hospital, they saw quite a few

23    local people gathered there and who were threatening and who said that

24    these people should be killed.

25            With regard to that testimony and with regard to your own

Page 13595

 1    recollections, on that day, when you were at the hospital, in front of the

 2    hospital, did you hear such comments, and were you informed about that,

 3    that there were serious threats that were being issued to people who were

 4    in the hospital, or any kind of threats, for that matter?

 5       A.   In the hospital yard and further on, where I was moving about, I

 6    did not hear any threats or anything that would be something that I would

 7    consider to be a lack of order.

 8       Q.   Witness Cakalic, when he testified on the 13th of March,

 9    transcript page 59 -- 5893, said that in the night between the 18th and

10    the 19th, or rather, at dawn, you personally took Marin Vidic out of the

11    hospital; that you were in the office and that then you took him out.

12       A.   That is quite incorrect.  I said where I found Marin Vidic.

13    Mr. Paunovic will come here to testify.  And I gave him the task of

14    bringing Marin Vidic in and he did bring him.

15       Q.   Just one more question, and I'm going to put something that you

16    heard in this courtroom to you.  I found that to be important; maybe the

17    Prosecution is going to put other things to you.

18            Mr. Njavro, also on the 11th of November, when he testified,

19    transcript page 1535, when he described a dialogue he had with a person he

20    called Radic, he said that this person said to him that you had told him

21    to mistreat people.  Did you tell anyone, any officer, any soldier, to

22    mistreat anyone in the hospital during the course of that night or at any

23    point in time?

24       A.   That is wholly untrue.  It would be a shame for me to behave that

25    way.  I would have been ashamed of any such thing.  I was chief of

Page 13596

 1    security, as you said.  I had a certain authority; I was at a certain

 2    level.  I did my best to do my work properly and I trusted that people who

 3    were supposed to carry out the tasks that were given to them.

 4            As for Captain Radic, I watched him as I did other commanders,

 5    komandiri, but after reaching Milovo Brdo, I do not recall having seen him

 6    anywhere and I did not issue any tasks to him.

 7       Q.   What about somebody else?

 8       A.   No one else.

 9       Q.   Did you hear from anyone on that day, that night, that evening, or

10    the following day, that European monitors or anyone else wanted to go to

11    the hospital that night?

12       A.   I never heard that except for here.  I think that somebody talked

13    about something like that in the courtroom.  But all who came to our zone

14    were made aware of the curfew from 1700 hours until 6.00 in the morning,

15    and that then, almost no one was moving around in the zone unless there

16    was some exceptional need to save a life or to help people.

17       Q.   Where did you go after that?

18       A.   After coming from the hospital, again, I reported to the command,

19    to the commander, and I reported to him that we took the medicine there.

20    I said to General Panic that Dr. Antic did not want to go to Sid.  Then I

21    told Commander Mrksic about what I had found there and I informed him that

22    I had asked for Vesna Bosanac to be called in for an interview with me and

23    Marin Vidic as well.  And probably we talked about other things, too, but

24    I cannot remember everything.

25            I remember that after that, Mr. Mrksic said the following to me:

Page 13597

 1    that I should no longer ask for vehicles from the European Red Cross for

 2    evacuating the hospital because all of this had been regulated, and that

 3    on the following morning the evacuation of the hospital would start; that

 4    officers and vehicles would come from the 1st Military District and that

 5    Colonel Pavkovic was in charge of that effort.

 6            He gave me the following task:  that I must ensure full security

 7    to have all of those who are suspected of having committed war crimes

 8    taken out of the hospital first so that they would be transported to the

 9    prison in Sremska Mitrovica.  As for the transport of these persons, I

10    should report to the assistant for logistics; that he had already been

11    ordered to assign buses for that.  That before going to the hospital, I

12    should report to the head of the medical service, Lieutenant Colonel

13    Jovanovic, and that Mr. Mrksic had already given him the task to assign

14    ten military doctors who should examine the wounded together with the

15    doctors of the Vukovar Hospital, and that security organs, during the

16    screening, are not allowed to take anyone out of the hospital without

17    having these persons first having been examined by doctors and in their

18    presence, that I should not carry out any kind of triage without the

19    doctors being with me, the doctors who had been assigned to that task.

20            I accepted that and we scheduled this for 6.00 the following

21    morning.  I was off to organise my own business and to interview Vesna

22    Bosanac and Marin Vidic.

23       Q.   I don't think I will be addressing all the counts in the

24    indictment, just some that we'll not be addressing now.  The Prosecutor

25    says that Commander Mrksic conferred upon you the power to conduct an

Page 13598

 1    evacuation, which the OTP claims started at the hospital, went through the

 2    barracks, and ended up at Ovcara.  The Prosecutor also claims that you

 3    commanded all the forces that were involved in this evacuation from the

 4    hospital to Ovcara.  Please tell us if that is true.

 5       A.   That is entirely erroneous.  I never received an order like that.

 6       Q.   Perhaps we can have a look now at what you did after the meeting

 7    at Colonel Mrksic's.

 8       A.   I went back to that building, near where I drew the command post

 9    of the town commander.  The forensics were there already; my two security

10    clerks and Vesna Bosanac as well.  I talked to her briefly.  Most of all,

11    I wanted to see if she could help me find the commander, Mr. Jastreb.  I

12    wanted to know about the numbers of the wounded and who the remaining

13    people in the hospital were.  She said she was willing to help.  She said

14    there were plenty of people there and she didn't know the exact figure.

15    But if I remember correctly the figures she gave me at the time, although

16    they may be inaccurate, she said, I believe, that there were over 200

17    wounded and about 60 inpatients.  But I wasn't very familiar with some of

18    the more medical/technical terms that she was using.

19            And then she said, "Sir, the only ones to remain faithful to their

20    people until the bitter end are myself," and she meant herself, "and

21    Mr. Marin Vidic.  And you will not find this gentleman you're after

22    because he has long fled Vukovar."  I asked her again but she said, "I'm

23    sorry, I can't help you."  I wanted to see if I could do anything about

24    her being taken to Zagreb, or rather, she asked me and I said I would do

25    everything within my power.  I asked her whether she was in touch with

Page 13599

 1    anyone in Zagreb.  She said she was permanently in touch with Mr. Tus and

 2    she could always call him any time she wanted.  The same with Mr. Hebrang

 3    and Mr. Tudjman.

 4            I told her that I would find the names of some officers who I knew

 5    had been taken prisoner in other JNA barracks, in Croatia, in Gospic, and

 6    other parts of Croatia.  I'm not mentioning other names, just to avoid

 7    hurting that person's feelings.  I was looking for a major who had served

 8    with me in the Guards Brigade but who had then been transferred to the

 9    Gospic barracks.  It was the previous spring that he was captured and

10    nobody knew what had become of him.  I was adamant that I should find out

11    about this man's fate and she promised to give me a hand with this.

12            Just after our conversation --

13       Q.   Slow down, please.

14       A.   Mrs. Bosanac started talking about politics, about Tudjman, how he

15    had betrayed them --

16            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the speakers please

17    kindly be asked to speak one at a time.  Thank you very much.

18       A.   The messenger came to see me to call me back to the commander's

19    post.  I came and Mr. Mrksic was seated at a table in the operations

20    room.  There were three other high-ranking officers, colonels, seated at

21    the same table as well as a number of other officers.  I think this was

22    about 8.00 in the evening.

23            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   You saw that entrance -- that entry in the war log about that.  I

25    will not be showing this now.  This was at about 2000 hours.  Was that the

Page 13600

 1    thing that jogged your memory?

 2       A.   Yes, it did, but the log was also discussed.  It said 7.30,

 3    possibly 8.00, and then the log was in that building where we interviewed

 4    Vesna Bosanac.  We were watching TV.

 5       Q.   So tell us what happens now.

 6       A.   The colonel briefly addressed me to say, "These are officers from

 7    the security administration.  They're here on a mission.  Their mission is

 8    to conduct a triage and to identify any crime suspects so that they might

 9    then be taken to Sremska Mitrovica.  Please sit down with them and tell

10    them about the security situation in the area of responsibility of the

11    Guards Brigade."

12            I greeted those men.  I had never met any of those officers

13    before; didn't know a single one of them.  I started my briefing.  I told

14    them that in the area covered by our brigade, those who had surrendered

15    had already been evacuated, as well as anyone from the Mitnica area, and

16    there was no one left there now.  The only two places where there were

17    still men to be screened were Velepromet and the hospital.  I said that

18    Velepromet was under the control of the Vukovar TO and that that was the

19    place where a screening was needed the most.  I made a proposal and

20    Colonel Mrksic reacted right away that the hospital was not to be touched

21    until the following morning.

22            I was interrupted immediately by the leader of that group.  He

23    introduced himself as Bogdan Vujic, Colonel Bogdan Vujic.  And this is

24    roughly what he said to me:  "Major, Comrade, we know all of that but we

25    must get on.  And this is what we'll do.  My team," that is, the team that

Page 13601

 1    arrived with Bogdan Vujic, "will go straight to Velepromet to do some work

 2    there.  You assign an officer to us who will introduce us to the people

 3    there.  You carry on interviewing the persons that you have been

 4    interviewing and also prepare for the triage and the selection process at

 5    the hospital.  But you can't go to the hospital before you've talked to

 6    me," since this had already been scheduled for 6.00 the following

 7    morning.  "Tomorrow morning report to me at the Velepromet gate with the

 8    team at 6.00 sharp," he said.

 9            The commander had already issued an assignment to the duty

10    operations officer to use the military police battalion to provide escort

11    for those people as far as Velepromet.  I phoned the barracks to speak to

12    my security assistant, Srecko Borisavljevic.  I told him to meet these

13    officers at the Velepromet gate and to introduce them to the

14    representatives of the Territorial Defence and the Velepromet warden so

15    that -- and that he should be with them until they carried out all their

16    assignments, and this is where we parted ways.

17       Q.   Hold on a second, please.  You've heard the evidence of Mr. Vujic

18    on the 16th of February.  On page 4497, he said that.  As they were

19    setting off, you said this:  "Don't be surprised if you see a Chetnik slit

20    the throat of an Ustasha there."

21       A.   I read different statements made by this gentleman, Mr. Vujic,

22    when I arrived in The Hague, since they became available at the time.  One

23    thing I realised is that he tends to change his statements very often.

24    I'm not repeating what you've already said.  He added something on his way

25    into the courtroom also what the purpose was behind him -- behind him

Page 13602

 1    making these additions to his statement.  I don't know.  But all these

 2    things are lies, pure lies.  He even said that I had held a meeting

 3    outside the headquarters.

 4            Your Honours, our army was a serious army.  I don't even wish to

 5    go into statements of that kind.  It is up to you to judge what is right

 6    and what is wrong, but it would have been a little too much for a major to

 7    be lining up colonels for review and to be giving them orders.

 8       Q.   Let's not go any further into that.  You never said any such

 9    thing, based on what I gather from the conversation between the two of

10    you.

11       A.   No, I never stated any such thing.

12       Q.   Thank you.  Did you at any point throughout that evening meet

13    those persons again?

14       A.   No, not the same evening.  It wasn't before the next morning, at

15    6.00, when I reported to Colonel Vujic at the Velepromet gate, that I saw

16    them again.

17       Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on to something different now, but before

18    we do, I wish to put something else to you.  I would like to stay in

19    public session.  I can tell you the name, if you like, but then we'll have

20    to go into private session.  Witness P32, testifying on the 7th of

21    December - 6962 is the reference in the transcript - he claims he saw you

22    on the 19th, the morning of the 19th, in the hospital area.  You put him

23    in the vehicle you were using, he says, and then drove him to the

24    hospital.  Do you remember this witness and what he said?

25       A.   Yes, I remember the evidence but, believe me, it's very difficult

Page 13603

 1    to keep track of all these codes, P0, P3.  Where I live, we use last

 2    names, not codes.  Be that as it may, his evidence is simply not correct.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  I will be asking you some questions about the

 4    Velepromet facility now.  Can you tell us whose facility it was?  Who was

 5    there?  Who was securing the facility?  Who was holding the facility?  Was

 6    it someone from your own security organs?  Did they go there?  Were they

 7    there, and what did they do?  Generally speaking, a word or two about

 8    Velepromet, please.

 9       A.   Velepromet is a huge warehouse of some sort of a wholesaler or

10    trading company or something, or that's what it used to be in peacetime.

11    By the time we got there, a holding centre had been set up there for

12    Vukovar's residents.  It was the Vukovar TO that controlled this

13    facility.  They had their own food storage there, fuel and ammunition.

14    They had special rooms to hold people who needed putting up.  They knew

15    the people.  And we didn't interfere very much but we tried to help as

16    much as we could.  For the most part, it was their men securing

17    Velepromet.

18            For members of the Guards Brigade, Velepromet was not very

19    important, or at least not before the 18th of November.  We hardly ever

20    went there.  However, the commander of the 2nd Assault Detachment had been

21    given the task of making sure there was sufficient order and discipline

22    there, and you can see that based on the order that was issued by Colonel

23    Mrksic.

24            I personally gave Captain Srecko Borisavljevic a task, and that

25    was pursuant to the commander's order.  There is an entry to show that in

Page 13604

 1    the war log.  I gave him the task of occasionally controlling the security

 2    situation in the holding centre and to work with the security organs.  In

 3    this case, the man was called Zigic, the TO security person.  And I also

 4    told him to exchange any useful information with Zigic.  So much about

 5    Velepromet.

 6       Q.   What do you know about whoever was in charge of the centre?

 7       A.   Ljubinko Stojanovic was in charge of the holding centre.

 8       Q.   And he was ...

 9       A.   He was the commander of the TO.  And based on my information and

10    based on what Srecko Borisavljevic had told me, he was a hard-working,

11    capable fellow and he did his job really well.  The ICRC men and the

12    European monitors often came to talk to him, and Mr. Vance also went to

13    talk to him when he was visiting Vukovar.

14            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just something about the transcript.

15    It's page 23, line 25, "Ljubinko Stojanovic" is the name.  And page 24,

16    line 2, he was not the commander of the TO; he was a member of the TO.

17       Q.   Isn't that what you said?

18       A.   Yes, a member of the Vukovar TO.

19       Q.   Had you ever heard anything about any irregularities, crimes being

20    committed, in Velepromet prior to this period?

21       A.   I'd heard no such thing throughout my time in Vukovar, nothing to

22    indicate that there had been anything like that at all in Velepromet.

23            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to use the

24    e-court system now to look at the war log.  This is Exhibit 70.  The

25    B/C/S -- 107, my apologies.  The war log, it's 107.  The B/C/S page is 33,

Page 13605

 1    and the e-court reference is 02935466.  The English is page 30.  My

 2    apologies, it's 401.  The exhibit number is 401.  It's the war log of the

 3    Guards Brigade.  We all know it by heart, I believe, or perhaps we don't.

 4    401.  The B/C/S page is 33 and the English is page 30.  The entry is dated

 5    the 22nd.  02935466.  The last bit, if you can, please, if you can blow it

 6    up a little, it's the last entry on this page.  It's dated the 22nd of

 7    October, 1330 hours.  I'll read it out.

 8            "The commander of OG South ordered that in the Velepromet company

 9    where refugees are being gathered, there should always have been one

10    security officer to gather information," and then I think what it says in

11    parentheses is "(chief of security)."

12       A.   I've talked about this already even before you read this out.  I

13    told you that I had put Captain Srecko Borisavljevic in charge of this

14    task and he was also a security clerk in the 2nd Assault Detachment.

15            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we take a look at another two

16    documents from our 62 ter batch, which also referred to Velepromet which

17    is why I left them for this stage in the proceedings.  Can we now put on

18    the screen 65 ter, 13 documents marked 3D050058.  That is 3D050058.  That

19    is again a report of the security organ of the Guards Brigade from

20    November the 9th.

21       Q.   I should like to deal first with the second paragraph,

22    Mr. Sljivancanin, and hear your comments.  "In the 1st Battalion of the

23    military police," that is how it starts.  Do you remember that?

24       A.   This is also a report of mine addressed to the chief of security

25    in the cabinet of the Federal Secretary.  While I can read out for you

Page 13606

 1    what is written in it, this was a practice -- this refers to 26 Croatian

 2    soldiers from the 1st Battalion of the military police who started to

 3    worry about their future fate because they had learned that the Republic

 4    of Croatia had proclaimed, on the 10th of November, that it would be

 5    independent, and it was only normal that people should be concerned.

 6            This is what I wrote about in these reports of mine, seeking

 7    advice as to allow a further course of action.

 8       Q.   The next paragraph speaks for itself.  It confirms that on that

 9    day there were also those problems that we talked about yesterday in the

10    anti-terrorist company.  But what I should like to deal with now is the

11    last paragraph on the following page.

12            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So can we turn the page, please,

13    over.  Can we zoom in on the last paragraph.

14       Q.   This is what it says:

15            "By the liberation of the settlement Bosko Buha in Vukovar, after

16    that, rather, suddenly emerged -- appeared a large number of people in the

17    shelters.  Over 300 persons were evacuated to Velepromet where they were

18    individually processed.  During the day, around 100 persons were

19    processed, from which number around 25 persons were singled out as being

20    of relevance to the security organs in terms of the further gathering of

21    data on the positions and forces of the Ustasha units and for the possible

22    exchange for captured JNA members," and then you go on to explain who was

23    in question.

24            Can you give us a brief comment on this paragraph.

25       A.   What is written here is true.  That is the way it was at that

Page 13607

 1    time.  We, the security organs, could suspect people of having committed a

 2    crime only if we caught them red-handed, on the spot, on the crime scene,

 3    or if they surrendered with weapons or if we caught them in the act.

 4            As regards other persons, they had to be processed.  They had to

 5    be subjected to the selection process in which we were assisted by members

 6    of the Territorial Defence of Vukovar, also on the basis of the list that

 7    we received from the security administration on the identification of such

 8    persons.  We then processed such persons and then decided whether they

 9    were civilians or should be detained.  There were 25 such people, and if I

10    remember correctly, as I said yesterday, it was proved that only two or

11    three had committed certain criminal offences.  The others were let go.

12       Q.   Please slow down.

13            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document -- but before we do

14    that, I should like to ask that we move into private session.  Can we just

15    have a mark given to this document.

16            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, it will be marked for identification, if

17    that's what you want.

18            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I should like to mark it for admission

19    into the case file, into the evidence, and I was referring to the next

20    document when I asked for us to go into private session because it refers

21    to the name of a protected witness.

22            JUDGE PARKER:  If you're tendering this document, it will be

23    received, Mr. Lukic.

24            THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 834, Your Honours.

25            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  And now private.

Page 13608

 1                          [Private session]

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 13609

 1  (redacted)

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 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16                          [Open session]

17            THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.  This

18    document will become Exhibit 835, under seal.

19            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that we shall manage to deal

20    with another topic before the break.

21       Q.   Did you go to Ovcara that evening, Mr. Sljivancanin?  We are still

22    talking about the 19th of November.

23       A.   On the 19th of November, after my meeting with organs from the

24    security administration, I remained at the command post, because officers

25    were coming, having accomplished certain tasks, and information was coming

Page 13610

 1    in.  And I, of course, was interested in hearing the information and

 2    seeing what was going on.  And as far as I can remember, Major Skoric was

 3    also among the people returning.  Major Skoric had been assigned the night

 4    before to lead civilians to Croatia, to the highway, to the crossing at

 5    Sid.  And he reported that Croatia did not want to take in those people,

 6    and as far as I could learn, they were returned to Ovcara again.

 7            That was a big problem for the people concerned, and I remember

 8    the words uttered, which were, "Why is it allowed for those people to be

 9    maltreated?"  I think that they also, in passing, talked to the chief of

10    the quartermaster service who was supplying food and water for those

11    people and he adduced a series of problems.  He even said that Territorial

12    Defence members were there and that they were cannibalising certain

13    vehicles - that is what he said - because he had just returned from the

14    region of Ovcara.

15            So these were all the problems that were being conveyed to me, and

16    I was a bit taken aback.  I wasn't aware that all this was happening.  And

17    I feel sorry for those people because the night before I had worked on

18    those things with Major Vukasinovic.  I don't know whether Colonel Mrksic

19    said something about that to me.  I might have talked about it with him

20    also, but I am not quite sure.  I cannot remember.

21            So I went and called Major Vukasinovic and he and I went to Ovcara

22    directly.  I couldn't go on my own because of security considerations and

23    it was dark.

24            As we were approaching Ovcara, we were stopped at a gate which was

25    installed by the command post there.  For at least 20 minutes they

Page 13611

 1    wouldn't let us enter, because the curfew was on and they didn't know us

 2    and we didn't know them because they were from another unit.  After some

 3    insistence, this commander from that command post actually made an

 4    appearance or called in and he checked and verified who we were.  He let

 5    us in.  And with our vehicle, we came outside the so-called yellow

 6    building.

 7            There, an officer of rank of captain first class, in uniform - I

 8    remember that - told me that there were a large number of civilians who

 9    had returned, that they would not disembark from the buses to be placed in

10    the hangar, that they wanted to stay on the buses, that they had ensured

11    water and food for them; but he said that everything was all right and

12    that the military police had arrived to secure that -- the place.  And,

13    according to him, there were no problems whatsoever.

14            There, I also found the commander, one of the komandiri of the

15    Territorial Defence, Miroljub Vujevic, accompanied by several members of

16    the Territorial Defence.  I asked him what business he had being there and

17    he told me that he had come on account of the motor vehicles and the

18    mechanisation, the machines that were supposed to come to Velepromet that

19    had been extracted from Mitnica but had not yet arrived; not all of the

20    machinery had arrived.  Of course, as it was dark, I didn't go out to

21    check.  There was no lighting or anything there.

22            I told him that he should rest assured that the members of the

23    Yugoslav Peoples' Army would not take or take away anything that belonged

24    to anybody else; that that would be put in Velepromet; that he should wait

25    for daybreak -- for day and that that would be solved.  So this officer

Page 13612

 1    said what his name was but I forgot.  He was a representative of the 80th

 2    Motorised Brigade.  He said that there were no problems, that it would be

 3    regulated according to the orders received.  And he offered me to go and

 4    see those people on the buses.  I thought that it was not necessary for us

 5    to go and see those people that we -- I cannot say ill-treated, but we

 6    only helped, in fact, last night; that there was no need to expose them to

 7    any further such treatment, and that actually -- that was not the task of

 8    my unit.

 9            So we stayed there for about 10 or 15 minutes and then we went

10    back.  Vukasinovic went to his own building; I went to my command post.

11            As far as I can recall, I believe that I told Colonel Mrksic that

12    I had been at Ovcara, although I'm not 100 per cent sure of that, and I

13    believe that he said to me, "Well, I know all of that.  Lieutenant Colonel

14    Vojnovic, the commander of --

15            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear of what.

16       A.   -- of the 80th Brigade has informed me about all of that.  And

17    that evening I met for the first time with General Aca Vasiljevic and

18    Colonel Tumanov.

19       Q.   Just a moment.  You have to repeat the previous sentence.  What

20    did Colonel Mrksic tell you when you reported to him upon returning from

21    Ovcara?

22       A.   If I remember correctly --

23       Q.   Just slow down.  What did Mrksic tell you that had been told to

24    him?

25       A.   If I remember that, I talked to Mrksic that time.  More or less,

Page 13613

 1    this is what Mrksic told me.  He told me that he knew that the people had

 2    been returned to Ovcara, that he had been informed about that by

 3    Lieutenant Colonel Vojnovic, the commander of the 80th Motorised Brigade,

 4    and that all the necessary measures to take proper care of those people

 5    had been taken and that he knew that there were no problems whatsoever.

 6            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 32, line 12, the witness said

 7    "Lieutenant Colonel Vojnovic."  We shall continue after the break.

 8            JUDGE PARKER:  We will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

 9                          --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

10                          --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

11            JUDGE PARKER:  They stand to the left and they stand to the right.

12            Mr. Moore.

13            MR. MOORE:  Your Honour, could I possibly ask one small indulgence

14    from my learned friend.  I know how difficult it is when one is taking a

15    witness in chief, especially one like Mr. Sljivancanin who is important,

16    but sometimes the questions will have two or three questions in the

17    question; more importantly, the answers are enormously long.  And I, for

18    my part, would be extremely grateful - perhaps it's my inability to take

19    so much material in quickly - but I would be very grateful if, in actual

20    fact, my learned friend could control Mr. Sljivancanin, as best he can, so

21    that the answers become intelligible.  They may require cross-examination

22    in due course.  And it is not a criticism, just merely a request.

23            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Lukic.

24            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that in relation to my planned

25    sequence of questions and current questions, I have full control of the

Page 13614

 1    witness.  Possibly his answers are a bit long, but that's because we

 2    carried out intensive preparations, the two of us.  And sometimes, in

 3    response to some of my questions, he gives me three or four answers to

 4    three or four possibly questions.  If Mr. Moore does not find some of

 5    these things clear, perhaps we will be able to clarify them, as we did

 6    yesterday, but he will have plenty of time during the cross-examination.

 7    What I am doing is making an effort to take Mr. Sljivancanin through a

 8    great many topics as efficiently as possible.

 9       Q.   But we will try, first and foremost, for the efficiency of these

10    proceedings, to be as clear as possible, Mr. Sljivancanin, and we would

11    like the answers to be what we can proffer to the Court.

12            Mr. Sljivancanin, we broke off when you went back to Mrksic.  Who

13    did you find there at Mr. Mrksic's when you arrived back from Ovcara on

14    the 19th, in the evening?  And what did you do then?

15       A.   As I've already started saying, I found General -- Major General

16    Aca Vasiljevic there, then Colonel Tumanov, and there were other officers

17    there from the 1st Military District, then from the General Staff, too.

18    But I cannot remember their names, and I didn't even know some of them.

19       Q.   Who was Mr. Tumanov?  Who was he then?

20       A.   At that time he was the deputy of Aca Vasiljevic.

21       Q.   What happened then?

22       A.   I briefly informed General Vasiljevic and Tumanov about what we

23    security organs did over the previous two days, especially in Mitnica.

24    When a group of officers came and -- from the security administration, I

25    said that they went to Velepromet.  And I said that I brought in Dr. Vesna

Page 13615

 1    Bosanac and Marin Vidic for an interview and that I asked them to come to

 2    the same premises where we were.

 3       Q.   Very well.  In your view, did Vasiljevic respond to you?  Did he

 4    know anything about the group from the security administration that came?

 5    Was that referred to?

 6       A.   That was referred to.  He said that he knew and, as a matter of

 7    fact, he even advised me, or rather, he suggested to me that these are

 8    experienced officers and that, in my future work, as far as security

 9    matters are concerned, I should cooperate with them and that I should go

10    by the instructions that they give me.

11       Q.   Where did you go after that?  What happened?

12       A.   After that, I went to my building and -- well, I forgot something

13    here.  I don't remember now whether I sent Mrs. Vesna Bosanac to go to

14    sleep before or after I went to Ovcara.  I cannot remember all these

15    details.  But, at any rate, I told her, since it was night-time and there

16    was a curfew on, that it was risky to travel to the hospital at night;

17    that nearby we had a hospital of our own and that quite a few nurses and

18    lady doctors were there, because I didn't want her, as a female person, to

19    spend the night at the buildings where we were spending the night.  So I

20    was suggesting to her that she spend the night in our hospital and to see

21    how our doctors worked and to see who they were treating.  She agreed to

22    that.

23            I called Lieutenant Colonel Jovanovic and I asked that he receive

24    the doctor at the hospital and provide whatever was necessary for her.  We

25    did not apply any kind of measures of coercion vis-a-vis her, except for

Page 13616

 1    the fact that I said to her that on the next day, at 6.00 in the morning,

 2    she would go to the hospital together with me and that we would continue

 3    our conversation.  Then I continued talking to Mr. Marin Vidic, Bili.

 4       Q.   Where was this conversation taking place, and do you remember who

 5    was present there?  And at what time this happened in the evening, can you

 6    tell us, approximately?

 7       A.   I spoke to Marin Vidic, Bili, in the evening, sometime before

 8    midnight, on the 19th of November, 1991, in the premises of the building

 9    where the security organ was.  I made a drawing of this here.  Karan was

10    present, Borce Karanfilov, and perhaps some of the crime scene technicians

11    who were recording these interviews on camera.  I cannot remember the

12    names of all of these persons, but the two I mentioned were there for

13    sure.

14       Q.   Did anybody come during this interview?  Did anybody enter your

15    rooms?

16       A.   Later, around 12.00 at night, or rather, at midnight or perhaps a

17    bit later, General Vasiljevic came and Colonel Tumanov.

18       Q.   Let us repeat once again:  Where was this taking place?

19       A.   This was taking place in the premises of the house where the

20    security organs were staying in the village of Negoslavci.

21       Q.   And what was it that was happening there?  What were they doing

22    there?

23       A.   I asked General Vasiljevic that perhaps he talk to Mr. Vidic as

24    well.  The general said that he did not want to conduct any conversations

25    with him, that I should take care of it.  He also asked me that I should

Page 13617

 1    show him all the documents I had, that I managed to collect from members

 2    of the National Guards Corps and that I managed to find until then, in the

 3    course of our work, and also what we took away from the volunteers that we

 4    were disarming and sending outside the zone of combat.

 5            He was asking questions about the method of work that we were

 6    carrying out then.  We briefly discussed the telegram as well that I had

 7    received from him.  I said to him, "We are doing whatever we can with

 8    regard to this matter."  He suggested to me that, without any interviews,

 9    we should send all suspects to the prison in Sremska Mitrovica and that

10    there were organs there that would further investigate these persons.

11            These were the brief conversations that we had.

12       Q.   This building where your rooms were, if I can put it that way, the

13    ones that you showed us on the first day, is that the building where you

14    slept otherwise, where you - how should I put this? - spent time when you

15    were not outside?

16       A.   This is the building where we slept, where we stayed, when we were

17    not out in the field, and we spent our time only in that building during

18    the time of combat.

19       Q.   Who else slept in that building along with you?

20       A.   Karan, Karanfilov, Momcilovic.  For a while, before he became

21    commander of this place, Vukasinovic slept there, too.  And my driver did

22    as well.

23       Q.   On that evening, did you go out after this conversation with

24    Vidic, after Mr. Vasiljevic came?  Did you leave the building during the

25    course of the night?

Page 13618

 1       A.   I was very tired because I hadn't slept the previous night, and I

 2    could hardly wait for this activity of ours to be over, to get a bit of

 3    rest, knowing of the exertion that lay ahead.  I didn't go anywhere.  I

 4    continued talking to Mr. Marin Vidic, who handed over his diary to me and

 5    quite a few other papers that he had written to the President of Croatia,

 6    Mr. Franjo Tudjman.

 7            Once he said that previously he had been a musician and that he

 8    liked nightlife.  And he asked me if I had a glass of brandy for him and I

 9    said that I was not really a drinker.  But then I asked for a drink to be

10    brought for him and they brought him a glass.  And we sang.  He sang well.

11       Q.   Did you give any tasks out for the following day to your people?

12       A.   That evening I gave assignments for the next day.

13            As for Major Vukasinovic, I said that he should get two buses that

14    would go to the area of the hospital and transport suspects, crime

15    suspects, who were hiding at the hospital.

16            As for Captain Karan, I assigned him to get the documents from the

17    hospital and to go to the hospital together with me and Dr. Bosanac.

18            As for Captain Karanfilov, I assigned him to continue talks with

19    Marin Vidic in the morning, and that he should go to the shelter that

20    should be demined so that we see what was in that shelter where the

21    headquarters of the ZNG had been.

22            At the same time I asked an officer from the engineering unit to

23    assign some professionals to remove the booby-traps so that the security

24    organs could enter the shelter.

25       Q.   Can we move on to the 20th of November, please.

Page 13619

 1       A.   Sorry, there is one thing that I didn't say about the 19th.  There

 2    is such a lot of information.

 3            That evening, on orders from Lieutenant Colonel Jovanovic, a

 4    doctor, lieutenant colonel, called me, Lieutenant Colonel Ivezic, and he

 5    told me that he was assigned to take the doctors to the Vukovar Hospital.

 6    And the lieutenant colonel told him to report to me and that I would tell

 7    him what to do.  And I said to him that in the morning, at 6.00, we would

 8    go to the Vukovar Hospital; that they were supposed to carry out their

 9    tasks there and that we agree on the spot, but they should be ready to

10    leave with us at 6.00 in the morning.

11       Q.   So did you actually leave at 6.00 in the morning?  Who left?

12    Where did you go to?

13       A.   We assembled, perhaps just before 6.00.  There were my driver and

14    I in this vehicle; Captain Karan was there and Dr. Ivezic.  In the other

15    vehicle, there was, I think, Vesna Bosanac.  And whether there was another

16    vehicle driving behind that vehicle, I think there were doctors driving in

17    that one that Captain Ivezic had brought along.  We set out on the morning

18    of the 20th, and we met Colonel Bogdan Vujic at the Velepromet gate in

19    Vukovar at 6.00.

20       Q.   What happens next?

21       A.   I reported to Colonel Vujic; I told him the team was there.  He

22    asked how many seats were available in my car and I said there was one

23    seat available, but no room left.  He said, "We ought to find room for

24    another officer."  I said, "If the man doesn't mind, he can have a seat in

25    the trunk of the car," because there was still room there.  They said,

Page 13620

 1    "All right."

 2            We talked briefly about where those suspects should be taken.

 3    Earlier on there had been a plan for all civilians - we took them all to

 4    be civilians simply because these people had surrendered unarmed; it

 5    wasn't like we caught them in the act, committing a crime - they were all

 6    to go through Velepromet first.  We, the security organs, were to be there

 7    for the screening and we didn't believe that those people should be sent

 8    back to Velepromet to be searched, to be screened, if you like; rather, we

 9    agreed that the best course of action would be for them to be taken to the

10    barracks, for them to wait there until a convoy was formed to go to

11    Sremska Mitrovica.  The colonel gave some other assignments to those other

12    officers, his own officers who were there, but that's not something I

13    concerned myself with.

14       Q.   So who came with you in that vehicle?

15       A.   Colonel Bogdan Vujic and another officer from the security organ,

16    but, believe me, at the time I didn't know his name, and I still don't

17    know his name.

18       Q.   But now you know who he was, don't you?

19       A.   Well, of course I do.  As I was preparing for all of this, I

20    learnt that this was Korica.

21       Q.   Thank you.  The previous day you talked to Colonel Mrksic about

22    the hospital evacuation and your assignment.  What was the plan?  What did

23    Mrksic tell you?  What did you learn?  Where were all those persons to be

24    taken to, the persons who were crime suspects, potential perpetrators of

25    crimes?

Page 13621

 1       A.   As soon as the 18th of November, at that meeting, Mrksic said that

 2    all crime suspects, or all those who had surrendered as crime suspects,

 3    were to be taken to Sremska Mitrovica, to the prison in Sremska Mitrovica,

 4    whereas the civilians could be taken to two different places - either to

 5    the Red Cross headquarters in Sid or to a place along the Croatian border

 6    where it was agreed that they would be received.  There were also those

 7    who wanted to remain in Vukovar and it was said that those people should

 8    be allowed to do so undisturbed and unharassed.

 9       Q.   Prior to the 20th - do you perhaps know this? - had anyone

10    mentioned that anyone was to be taken to Ovcara on the 20th of November

11    from the hospital?

12       A.   As far as I was concerned, the entire area of the town of Vukovar

13    bordering on the Velepromet area, there was the instruction that only

14    civilians should go to Velepromet and no one from that area ever said

15    anything about anyone being taken to Ovcara, nor was that necessary.  The

16    only thing was that Mitnica, as a Vukovar neighbourhood, a part of Mitnica

17    bordered on the general Ovcara area, and in order to continue on to

18    Sremska Mitrovica, some of those persons were sent through that facility

19    in order to continue their journey from there on to Sremska Mitrovica.

20       Q.   What about the hospital?  Did it, in your words, gravitate more

21    towards Velepromet or towards Ovcara?

22       A.   That facility gravitated towards Velepromet and the barracks

23    alone.

24       Q.   You were off to the hospital, I suppose.  Tell me something else:

25    Outside Velepromet at that point, on the 20th, or on the way to the

Page 13622

 1    hospital, as you talked to Vujic and the other people, did anyone at this

 2    time tell you about what had occurred at Velepromet the previous night?

 3    Did they share any of their impressions with you?

 4       A.   The officer who drove with us kept silent, for the most part.

 5    Myself, Dr. Vujic and Dr. Ivezic did most of the talking.  Nothing at all

 6    was said about what they had done at Velepromet, nor was he, in any way,

 7    required to brief me on any of that.  For the most part, we talked with

 8    Dr. Ivezic was about what the best way was to avoid hurting anyone, to

 9    avoid any disruptions to the life of the wounded, whatever that meant.

10            Another important thing was to establish if there were any

11    potential crime suspects there and how to screen the men, and that's what

12    we discussed on our way to the hospital.

13       Q.   Who did you find, as far as officers from the Guards Brigade were

14    concerned, upon your arrival at the hospital?  Which soldiers were there,

15    which military officers?  Anyone from the Guards Brigade?

16       A.   When we reached the hospital that morning, there were soldiers and

17    officers there from the 2nd Military Police Battalion.  As far as I

18    remember, Major Paunovic, Radoje Paunovic, was there and Captain Simic.  I

19    am certain about the two of them.  There were other officers from the

20    military police, but I can't quite remember who.  I've forgotten.

21       Q.   You heard evidence by certain witnesses about what happened that

22    night at the hospital, the night between the 19th and the 20th.  Did those

23    officers there tell you about any incidents at the hospital the previous

24    night?

25       A.   I asked Mr. Major Paunovic whether the night had been a quiet

Page 13623

 1    one.  He didn't tell me about anything bad happening at the hospital, nor

 2    did he make any negative observations.

 3       Q.   What happens next?

 4       A.   We went to Mrs. Bosanac's office.  We asked Mrs. Vesna Bosanac to

 5    summon her doctors who were supposed to be working together with our

 6    military physicians in order to inspect the hospital patients and the

 7    wounded.  Dr. Ivezic did most of the talking as to how this was to be

 8    carried out.  Bogdan Vujic left me there to deal with that.  He said that

 9    he would be off with Officer Korica to pursue their own plans.

10            After a brief discussion, Mrs. Vesna Bosanac came up with the idea

11    that it would be best to have a meeting with all the medical staff

12    attending so that our doctors could introduce themselves to their doctors

13    and so that they could explain what needed doing.  And she was willing to

14    help us with this.  I asked her how much time it would take for her to get

15    everyone assembled.  She said, "Ten minutes will do."  And she also

16    proposed a room where all these people would assemble.  And, indeed, she

17    convened some of her lady associates and then they told us to go to that

18    room where the hospital staff had already assembled.  Vesna Bosanac, Dr.

19    Ivezic and I reached the room together.

20            When you leave Bosanac's office, this room was just on the

21    right-hand side of the corridor and then left, towards the exit.  I think

22    they called it the plaster room, or at least that's how I heard them refer

23    to it.

24            Dr. Ivezic asked me to hold that meeting and to say whatever it

25    was that I had to say.

Page 13624

 1       Q.   So what did you say; do you remember?  A word or two about that,

 2    please.  What did you share with the medical staff?

 3       A.   It was a difficult time for words.  All those people and we,

 4    together with them, had been through so much suffering over the previous

 5    period of time.  I tried not to give a proper speech but, rather, to tell

 6    them what they really wanted to know, although I've heard all kinds of

 7    evidence here and many fabrications, to be sure.  This is, in very rough

 8    terms, what I said:

 9            "Gentlemen, doctors, I'm here on behalf of the JNA."  I'm not sure

10    if I introduced myself or not.  Perhaps I did; perhaps I didn't.  "The JNA

11    is here to help everyone in this town.  We are one people.  You doctors

12    took the doctor's oath and you have no reason to fear anything at all.

13    You, of all people, have no reason to fear.  We don't want to know whose

14    wounded you have been treating.  The crux of the matter is you provided

15    people with appropriate treatment and you did your job.  It's a sad thing

16    that this had to happen.  It's a sad thing we started killing each other.

17    I believe this will be a warning for everyone and I hope this will never

18    happen again."

19            I also said this: "I think Tudjman and the HDZ, most of everyone,

20    are to blame for this."

21            If I may just finish, please.  I said:  "I know you want to know

22    what we are to do.  There is a possibility that the JNA believes that all

23    honourable and hard-working people, especially those in this hospital,

24    especially those who want to carry on living in Vukovar, you should give

25    us a hand, you should stay here and help us along.  Those who do not wish

Page 13625

 1    to remain have three choices:  Firstly, they can go to the Red Cross in

 2    Sid or else they can go to Croatia."

 3            I also pointed out that we had information to indicate that there

 4    were individuals hiding inside the hospital who were suspected of having

 5    committed crimes.  Any such persons will be brought in for interviews.

 6    "It is in your best interest," I said, "to help us find these people."

 7            That is, in very rough terms, what I said at the meeting.

 8       Q.   Did you offer the medical staff and the doctors to carry on

 9    working at the hospital and to remain in Vukovar?

10       A.   As I have said already, I offered everyone a chance to stay

11    because we needed them.

12       Q.   Did you tell them at the time, or anyone else, for that matter,

13    that a new hospital director had been appointed, Dr. Ivezic?

14       A.   I said at the time that until civilian control was reestablished,

15    Dr. Ivezic will be in charge of the hospital.  I introduced him, but I

16    don't remember actually saying that he would be the hospital director.  I

17    said he would be in charge of all the hospital business.

18            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at Exhibit 338,

19    photograph number 23, for a moment.

20       Q.   Do you recognise this room, and do you recognise anyone in this

21    photograph?

22       A.   Certainly.  This is Lieutenant Colonel Ivezic, the doctor in

23    uniform.  There is the rank on his shoulder strap.  That's him.  And this

24    room is probably the room where the doctor was checking the hospital

25    patients and preparing them for the evacuation.

Page 13626

 1            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  We're done with

 2    this photograph.

 3       Q.   As for the meeting in the plaster room, let me ask you a

 4    question.  It's a question that stems from some allegations in the

 5    indictment.  It's an agreed fact that you were there at that meeting in

 6    the plaster room.  Mr. Sljivancanin, did you keep anyone in the meeting,

 7    hold people back from leaving the meeting, as the soldiers were going

 8    about their business taking away about 400 non-Serbs?

 9       A.   That is a lie and it's also sheer nonsense.  All I wanted was to

10    tell those people what was in store for them and to provide any assistance

11    I could, without holding anybody back at all.  I was at the meeting to

12    begin with because Vesna Bosanac had asked me to be there.

13       Q.   Let me ask you several questions about the triage.

14       A.   But I didn't tell you everything about the meeting yet.

15            After my presentation, people spoke up because they had questions

16    for me.  The main questions were about where the civilians were to

17    assemble who wanted to go to those two places.  We hadn't quite organised

18    ourselves yet, but at the meeting I said that any crime suspects would be

19    taken outside the hospital and then to the left, the street; and those who

20    were preparing to go to Sid or back to Croatia should head right of the

21    entrance and should split up into two groups so that the column leaders or

22    the convoy leaders would know.  We didn't separate them off ourselves.

23            They asked me what they were allowed to bring in terms of their

24    belongings.  I said we would be everything within our power to help them

25    but there wouldn't be that much room in the vehicles, so the best thing

Page 13627

 1    was for them to bring the bare necessities and not really bring a lot of

 2    things, because I didn't know at the time how much room there would be in

 3    the vehicles, or how many vehicles, for that matter.

 4            They asked me whether families would be allowed to not be split

 5    up.  I thought they met husband, wife, sons, daughters, that sort of

 6    thing.  I said that had not -- had they not asked for it, we would have

 7    asked for it, we would have insisted on it, that we will not be splitting

 8    families up.  But any crime suspects would have to go and be interviewed.

 9    And that was the end of that meeting.

10       Q.   You heard the testimony of Zvezdana Polovina.  You remember her

11    words.  She heard you say that the men would be taken to the barracks for

12    brief interviews and that they would later be joining them.  Do you

13    remember saying anything like that at the meeting, since there were so

14    many different things being said?

15       A.   Whatever I told the civilians I tried not to upset them any more

16    than they already were.  I perhaps may have said that they would be taken

17    for short interviews without saying that they would be taken to prison in

18    Sremska Mitrovica in order to avoid creating any tensions, any anxiety in

19    the family.

20       Q.   Thank you.  What is triage?  Who did the screening?  Who

21    participated in it, and how long did it last?

22       A.   Well, the very word "triage" means the separation of people who

23    are suspected of having committed a crime, and at that time, for us, they

24    were -- these were primarily men.

25       Q.   Of what age?

Page 13628

 1       A.   Between the ages of 18 -- from the age of 18 and up, depending on

 2    the physical fitness, constitution, and the risk, and the existence of

 3    doubt.  This screening was done by doctors, by security organs, and all of

 4    the people cooperating in the hospital, including some Territorial Defence

 5    members chosen to participate in that work and who knew the people.  And,

 6    of course, military police soldiers also participated, if the doctors told

 7    them to take people out, or so.  But I should like to stress that we

 8    received the most help in identifying such persons from the doctors of the

 9    Vukovar Hospital.  I really didn't ask the doctors what ethnicity they

10    were.  Those who came forward themselves and offered assistance, they

11    would assist us.  Among others, Dr. Gjuro Njavro did so and he helped us

12    in the screening process together with our doctors.

13       Q.   Just a minute.  I should not like to be leading.  If you stick to

14    this, you referred to able-bodied men from the age of 18.  Do you

15    remember, according to regulations on national defence, what was the

16    lowest age threshold for men able to serve in the army at that time?

17       A.   I remember that young men who were 18 or over came to do their

18    military service.

19       Q.   And recruitment, at what age was that?

20       A.   I did not deal with recruitment, but as far as I can recall, it

21    was from the age of 16.

22       Q.   Thank you.  I suppose that the screening took place of people who

23    had traces to indicate that they were either sick people or wounded

24    people.  Were there any people who presented different appearances but,

25    for you, were people that should be singled out, that should be in the

Page 13629

 1    group that should be singled out, according to your criteria for

 2    selection?

 3       A.   I remember a case when Dr. Ivezic took one man -- brought one man

 4    to me, and he told me, "Let me show you what a wounded person looks like."

 5    His entire head was in bandages, and the doctor asked him, "What is your

 6    problem?"  And he said he did not have a single eye.  Then on the spot,

 7    the doctor, having probably learned that earlier from the doctors of the

 8    Vukovar Hospital, removed the bandage and this was a completely healthy

 9    possible.

10            Well, now, there may have been -- there were probably other cases

11    like this, but I didn't go to see what each soldier and what each doctor

12    was doing because, of course, I had my own work to do.  And if I didn't

13    know, other persons would have been required.  But I know that this was

14    the case.  And I did not hear here in this court that any person in the

15    hospital, during the screening process, complained that anyone was

16    taking -- exacting any reprisals in so doing against them.

17            THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry, the interpreter could not hear the

18    question.

19       A.   After this meeting and after a short consultation with Mr. Njavro,

20    for him to help our doctors, as he had promised the evening before, I went

21    to Mrs. Vesna Bosanac's office and there we resumed our dialogue.

22            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   What did you talk about?

24       A.   I asked to see whether we could establish contact with Zagreb and

25    talk to the people and she said that she would enable us to do that.  Then

Page 13630

 1    I -- she remained there with Mladen Karan and I went out -- while she was

 2    trying to establish that connection.

 3            And then I went out to the right side, to the area of the shelter

 4     -- where the shelter of the ZNG was.  Members of the engineer units,

 5    demining units, arrived at the spot and I had a short consultation and

 6    agreement with them in order for them to clear the shelter of mines.  They

 7    said that they could do so but that the area needed to be secured.  The

 8    security had to be ensured, that no one could pass via the road from the

 9    Dunav Hotel towards the hospital until the shelter was demined, because it

10    was in the immediate vicinity of the road.

11            An armoured battalion unit was there in that area at the time, so

12    I asked the captain to help me secure the area.  And he informed me that

13    morning that, in the immediate vicinity of the hospital, that evening,

14    explosives had killed three soldiers from his own battalion, which, of

15    course, touched me deeply as a human being.

16            So I returned to the office of Vesna Bosanac in an organised

17    fashion, and en route, in passing, I saw all these civilians who were

18    flocking to go.  I might have exchanged a word or two with some of them,

19    but I cannot remember all of that.

20       Q.   We heard testimonies here from two witnesses that said that you

21    had said that the process should be expedited and that the process should

22    not be allowed to drag on until nightfall.  Do you remember that, having

23    said something like that?

24       A.   I do not deny that perhaps in passing from the shelter to the

25    hospital, through this group of civilians, I might have hurried them on.

Page 13631

 1    I may have said something to that effect.  I cannot remember my every

 2    word.  I do not deny that.

 3       Q.   Why would it have been your objective for the process to be

 4    expedited?

 5       A.   The objective of expediting the process would have been in the

 6    fact that I knew that vehicles and a convoy were to arrive to take away

 7    the wounded at a scheduled time to a place called Zidine.  We had a

 8    precise time schedule when they were to arrive at that point in order to

 9    be taken over by other organisations from Croatia, so we needed to create

10    safe conditions for these wounded to set off on their journey.

11       Q.   Mr. Sljivancanin, you, as the security organ, do you consider it

12    safe for the evacuation of the wounded and the sick to start before a

13    screening process has been conducted to check whether, in the hospital,

14    there were any reasons which would jeopardise such an evacuation?

15       A.   No, it is not safe.  It is not safe, because at that time we had

16    received information that around 2.000 armed members of the National

17    Guards Corps and around 800 members of the MUP were fighting with weapons

18    in Vukovar.  To us surrendered only their members at Mitnica.  By that

19    time no one had surrendered from the hospital area, and we suspected - and

20    that was later borne out to be true; and witnesses who will be coming here

21    will probably confirm that - there were people with weapons hiding either

22    in or around the hospital.  And it was obvious that they could create

23    problems in the evacuation process.

24       Q.   Thank you.  Who searched those persons, and where were they taken?

25    How did the searching process go, in a couple of words?

Page 13632

 1       A.   The search was probably -- not "probably," but it was done by the

 2    military police, the 2nd Battalion members, and, from the witness

 3    testimonies that I have heard here, this was just a routine search that

 4    was carried out in quite a correct fashion.  I was, in fact, proud of the

 5    dignified and humane way in which these young people were treating all the

 6    persons.  They were supposed to board the buses, under the guidance of

 7    Major Vukasinovic, to be led to the barracks.

 8       Q.   During this period of time, from the time when they were taken

 9    out - and we have heard testimonies also to that effect - so from the

10    building of the hospital up to the time they boarded the buses and were

11    taken to the barracks, did you leave the hospital compound?

12       A.   I do not remember leaving the hospital compound during that time

13    because I stayed on talking to Vesna Bosanac and talking to people from

14    Zagreb by telephone from her office.  And I also remained in the rooms of

15    a doctor, a lady doctor, who offered to take me to her office and give me

16    photographic material about everything that had been happening in the

17    hospital during the war.

18       Q.   Can we hear her name, or should we go to private session?

19       A.   I'd prefer that we go into private session because I had promised

20    that to her.

21            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we move into private session for a

22    minute, Your Honours.

23            JUDGE PARKER:  Private.

24                          [Private session]

25  (redacted)

Page 13633

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10                          [Open session]

11            THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

12            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   In the course of this second conversation with Vesna Bosanac,

14    after the plaster room meeting, as it were, do you remember whether she

15    talked to anyone and whether you talked to anyone?

16       A.   I asked Vesna Bosanac -- actually, she pleaded with me, and I

17    asked her to impart to us information obtained from the Croatian

18    authorities in respect of a major taken prisoner in Gospic of whose fate

19    nothing had been known for six months.  And, to be brief, she just told

20    me, "I will get in touch with," as she told me, "Mr. Tudjman, but I really

21    think that we talk to Hebrang.  I'm not sure."  She said, "It will be

22    better once I establish connection that I hand it over to you and you ask

23    about the major's fate."  And once she had got in touch with his

24    secretary, male or female secretary, and after exchanging a few words with

25    him and then with that gentleman, she told him, "A representative of the

Page 13634

 1    Yugoslav Peoples' Army is here in my office and he wants to talk to you."

 2    And she handed the receiver to me.  So I took the receiver and I said who

 3    I was to the man, and I heard from the other side the words, "I do not

 4    wish to talk to a Chetnik."  And he hung up and that was it.  There was no

 5    more talking.

 6       Q.   Did you talk to anybody else?

 7       A.   After that, I rang up General Aca Vasiljevic.

 8       Q.   Why?

 9       A.   I called him so as to consult with him because I had obtained a

10    lot of information, both in the hospital -- to the effect that Dr. Njavro,

11    too, was suspected of not having properly treated the patients and of

12    having committed crimes.  Many doctors also complained of the conduct of

13    Dr. Vesna Bosanac, and it was then, for the first time, they reported a

14    man who I later learned -- whose name I later learned was Anto Aric, and

15    it was then, on the 20th, in the morning, that I saw him for the first

16    time.  He had come there in August on orders from Tudjman to discharge

17    some tasks.

18            And I consulted with General Vasiljevic in terms of what was I to

19    do with these three people and about those three people, as well as with

20    Mr. Marin Vidic.  The general told me, "Here, Tumanov, let Tumanov explain

21    what you are to do."  Tumanov talked to me on the phone and, more or less,

22    this is what he said:  "Sljivancanin, you know the routine.  You know the

23    procedures.  Send them to Sremska Mitrovica for interrogation."  And that

24    was the end of that conversation.

25            After that I summoned to the command from the -- two escorts to be

Page 13635

 1    assigned from the 1st Battalion of the military police.  Captain Bozic,

 2    Mile, came with a military police vehicle, and I entrusted my assistant,

 3    Mladen Karan, with the task of resolving the question of the departure of

 4    these people to Sremska Mitrovica.

 5       Q.   You heard the testimony of Vesna Bosanac here and she claimed that

 6    she had spent a very large part of that day in the barracks.  Did you know

 7    anything about that at that time?  Or do you know anything else related to

 8    her continued stay in Vukovar?

 9       A.   I heard that here, but you will see from my further testimony how

10    busy of a schedule of activities I had during the rest of that day.  I'm

11    sure that my assistant Karan did his job properly; I know that.  But I

12    really don't know where they stayed, whether they were held up anywhere.

13    The man will come here and take the stand and will say that.  But I do

14    know for a fact that they were taken to the prison in Sremska Mitrovica.

15       Q.   In your view, when did these buses with these people who were

16    separated, when did they leave the hospital?  Did you see them off, or do

17    you not remember exactly?  What is that you know about this?

18       A.   What I know is that after leaving the office of the mentioned

19    doctor, I set out to the other bridge, if I can put it that way, on the

20    Vuka River, where I was supposed to be met by a captain from whose unit

21    some soldiers got killed, in order to find out how they got killed.  And I

22    know that I scheduled a meeting with him at 10.00; I remember that.  That

23    remains in my memory.  And when I was leaving, going to that bridge, I saw

24    that the buses were already moving away.

25            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we see Exhibit 421 for a moment,

Page 13636

 1    please, the report of the Operations Group South of the 20th of November,

 2    at 1800 hours.  If the last page can be displayed, please.  I don't know

 3    whether it's 2 or 3.  The lower part, if that can be zoomed in.

 4       Q.   This is a regular combat report from the 20th of November, at 1800

 5    hours.  Why is this document relevant in relation to what you have been

 6    testifying about just now?

 7       A.   Regrettably, we can see the names of the soldiers here.  I even

 8    know the towns that these soldiers were from.  One person was from

 9    Danilovgrad --

10       Q.   That doesn't matter.

11       A.   But I can say it.  One was from Pozarevac; one was from Backa

12    Palanka.

13            The report is sent at 1800 hours, because the previous one was

14    sent on the previous evening, on the 19th, at 1800 hours, and the soldiers

15    were killed during the night between the 19th and the 20th.  And they are

16    all from the armoured battalion.  These are the soldiers that I was

17    talking about.

18            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter could not hear Mr. Lukic.

19            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Map 156, please.  Could we just have

20    that marked.  If Mr. Sljivancanin can mark on that map [In English]

21    evidence, Exhibit 156.

22            [Interpretation] Could Mr. Sljivancanin use the pen to mark the

23    place where this incident had occurred.

24       Q.   Did these three soldiers get killed in the same incident,

25    Mr. Sljivancanin?

Page 13637

 1       A.   They got killed in the same incident.

 2            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can this be enlarged a bit, the part

 3    near the central part of the map.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can put a circle here, too, as

 5    well.

 6            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  Could the central part

 7    please be enlarged a bit.

 8       Q.   Just mark it, please.

 9       A.   This is the area where they got killed.

10       Q.   Can you describe it.  Is it across the bridges?  In relation to

11    the bridges and the hospital, where is this?

12       A.   It is between the bridges on the Vuka and the hospital.  It's

13    closer to the hospital.

14       Q.   Thank you.  Can we -- or rather, put number 1 there,

15    Mr. Sljivancanin, and then let's have this admitted into evidence.

16       A.   [Marks].

17            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this, please.

18            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

19            THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 836, Your Honour.

20            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   Mr. Sljivancanin, in the period before these buses had left and

22    before this convoy came, the one that we are going to talk about now, did

23    you see any trucks there or any ambulance vehicles at the time when the

24    buses were there?

25       A.   I did not see any such thing.

Page 13638

 1       Q.   You heard the dialogue that was described by Ljubisa Dosen, a

 2    witness here.  Do you remember anyone who was taken out on a stretcher?

 3    Do you remember that dialogue, that story, and what she testified about

 4    with regard to her late husband?

 5       A.   I am sorry about all the things that the lady said and I am sorry

 6    about what happened to her husband.  But also it is correct that many

 7    witnesses were just saying that they knew of Sljivancanin, that they

 8    didn't know any other officers there.  There were quite a few officers

 9    there.  But I really do not remember having talked to the mentioned lady

10    at all.

11       Q.   Were there other officers there that were wearing camouflage

12    uniforms like you at the time?

13       A.   The same uniform and the same build, that's something that my

14    assistant Vukasinovic had.  And similar uniforms were worn by some other

15    officers from the military police.

16       Q.   During the search within the compound, and as persons were

17    boarding buses, were there any officers from the military police there?

18    To the best of your recollection, do you remember how many officers were

19    there?

20       A.   I told you that I saw Major Paunovic there and Captain Simic.  I

21    really do not remember who else I saw, but there should have been other

22    platoon leaders there, at least three officers of the military police.

23       Q.   At the beginning of the trial, on the 3rd of November, on page

24    1160, Witness 006 testified.  Probably you don't actually know who this

25    is, so if necessary, we can move into private session.  But he said that

Page 13639

 1    he, as a technical/medical man, was taken off the bus together with a few

 2    of his colleagues; that he was in front of the hospital, that he was put

 3    there; and that they waited there for about an hour; and that then you

 4    came and that you talked to him and returned him to the hospital.

 5            Has this jogged your memory?  Do you remember that there was a

 6    group that was standing there and waiting there for a while until you

 7    talked to them?

 8       A.   Well, when you hear any statement, it either jogs your memory or

 9    you realise that that was not the case.  I said that after I returned

10    again to Vesna Bosanac's office, at one point in time, a lady came and

11    said to me, "You promised that you would not separate families and our

12    husbands were taken to the barracks."  I asked, "How come?"  She

13    said, "Well, they're not there.  They were taken away."  I said, "Madam,

14    make a list of all these husbands who you think are members of the

15    hospital staff and that belong to your families.  I promise you, if they

16    had not committed any crimes, they will be with your families."

17            The lady left, and after a certain amount of time - I don't know

18    whether it was half an hour; more than that, less than that, I really

19    don't know - at any rate, as I set out to see the places where these

20    soldiers got killed, she brought me that list.  I sent my driver to the

21    barracks and I said to him that he should find Major Vukasinovic and that

22    I asked that these persons from the list should be returned to the

23    hospital.  He went and took that list.

24            Then, later, when I came with the representatives of the European

25    Community and the Red Cross to the hospital, and with Colonel Pavkovic, I

Page 13640

 1    went towards the gate to see whether these persons, these men, had been

 2    returned.  And I remember that I found a group of men there who were

 3    standing there.  They said that they had been separated out there and that

 4    they had some kind of membership cards, as they had put it, of the

 5    hospital.

 6            I saw these passes that they had and I said that it was not

 7    necessary for them to stand there any longer.  I said that they could go

 8    back and return to the hospital.  I remember that.

 9       Q.   Since a witness, another protected witness, said on page 3373 -

10    the witness is 031 - on the 26th of January, said that you came to the

11    bus, that he showed you his ID even before the buses left, that this ID

12    did not have a photograph, and that you returned him to the bus.  What do

13    you say to that?  Is that correct?

14       A.   Well, I've already answered that question.  I was not present.  I

15    was not in the street when the buses left, so I could not have returned

16    anyone on to the bus.  But I know that I talked to people in the street

17    who were waiting, allegedly, for transportation, and I found these people

18    who had these IDs and I returned them to the hospital.  As for the rest, I

19    do not remember it -- well, there's nothing to remember.  I never did

20    that.

21       Q.   A few moments ago, when you said that you agreed that the buses

22    should go to the barracks, not to Velepromet, and that from there they

23    would go further on to Sremska Mitrovica, what was your expectation?  How

24    long would the buses stay?  What was the task involved?  Why would they go

25    to the barracks?  Why did they not go to Sremska Mitrovica straight away?

Page 13641

 1       A.   Well, when Bogdan Vujic left the hospital, he left the hospital

 2    before I went to see where the young soldiers got killed.  I heard

 3    different testimony here, but I am sure that he left before I went off and

 4    before the observers of the European Community came.  He said to me that I

 5    should stay on in the hospital to see whether there were other people

 6    there who were hiding, and that he would regulate all further questions

 7    regarding the departure of the column -- the convoy to Sremska Mitrovica.

 8            What was being awaited was to see whether there were other people

 9    left in the hospital as the wounded were being carried out.  That's why

10    they were waiting at the barracks.  So what was being waited for was that,

11    if there are some persons who were still in some cellars, a convoy could

12    be organised and escorted by the police, the escort that would take

13    suspects to Sremska Mitrovica.  And this was regulated by the command of

14    the Guards Brigade, when the convoys left, that is.

15       Q.   At one point in time, did you come to the place where the

16    representatives of the International Red Cross were and the convoy that

17    was supposed to evacuate the wounded?  And what happened there?

18       A.   When I came to this bridge, as for the radio that was on the APC

19    that was on the bridge, because it was also from the armoured battalion,

20    it was said that Colonel Pavkovic was looking for me.  At the same time

21    this was communicated to me by a photographer from Zastava Film called

22    Zare; that was his nickname.  He was there to record what was going on.

23    And he said, "The colonel said that you should go to the other bridge.  He

24    said that I should tell you that if I see you."  I went there, and first I

25    saw Colonel Pavkovic there and then I saw Mr. Borsinger as well.

Page 13642

 1       Q.   I believe there is no need for us to show the footage that we have

 2    already seen so many times.  Could you describe for us what the reason was

 3    and why you said what you said to Mr. Borsinger during that dialogue.

 4       A.   Well, I was shaken by the news of the death of our three young

 5    soldiers.  Then Mr. Borsinger promised that he would come at 6.00 in the

 6    morning and he didn't come.  He promised that he would bring a lot of

 7    food, that he would bring food, tents, and many other things that I had

 8    asked him to bring for the people who were staying there and who had no

 9    proper accommodation.

10            When we met, Colonel Pavkovic first complained to me that he had

11    behaved unfairly - how should I put this? - and then when we had some

12    conversation, he and I, he said that I should first remove the

13    journalists, that they should not attend.  And there was an enormous group

14    of journalists there.  I said, "Sir, I really don't know why we are

15    evading journalists.  Let people take pictures and let them show the world

16    what is going on in our country."  And I said to the journalists, "Feel

17    free to record everything because this is really major suffering on the

18    part of all of our peoples."  That's what I said.  I said what I said

19    about my soldiers, and that's the way it was.  And that is what the

20    situation was at that moment.

21       Q.   Did you prohibit Mr. Borsinger or anybody else from the

22    International Red Cross from entering the hospital?

23       A.   I did not prohibit Mr. Borsinger or anybody else.  But I got into

24    a vehicle together with them and went to the hospital, and that can be

25    seen on the recording as well.  And I stayed with them in the hospital

Page 13643

 1    throughout the time while they were there.

 2       Q.   Who carried out the evacuation of the wounded?

 3       A.   The evacuation, or rather, this convoy for the evacuation of the

 4    wounded was brought by Colonel Pavkovic and with him from officers from

 5    the 1st Military District.  One was called Loncar, and I don't know -- I

 6    think he was a colonel, too, and I don't know the other names.

 7            As for the wounded being put into vehicles, Major Tesic appeared

 8    there as well and he said that Colonel Mrksic had charged him with the

 9    duty of having the wounded carried into the vehicles and establishing full

10    order in terms of preparing the departure of the wounded from the

11    hospital.

12       Q.   I just have to put a question to you:  Do you know, in relation to

13    the transport of these persons on the buses, whether they had any kind of

14    military escort?  And who was the military escort of these persons to the

15    barracks?

16       A.   I put Major Vukasinovic, my assistant for military and police

17    affairs, in charge of that.  I know that he got some soldiers from the 2nd

18    Military Police Battalion for that.

19       Q.   From Paunovic; right?

20       A.   Indeed.

21       Q.   During the evacuation of the wounded, and we'll be looking at some

22    footage, were there any complaints by anyone about the procedure itself?

23    Did you ever find out that there were grievances about the way the

24    evacuation was conducted?

25       A.   Throughout my time at the hospital, I watched, I helped, and on

Page 13644

 1    that day no one came to complain to me.

 2       Q.   Did anyone stand in the way of the civilians present there, such

 3    as women and medical staff, preventing them from getting in touch with the

 4    ICRC people and the international observers?

 5       A.   No, there was no one standing in their way.  If you look at the

 6    videos, you can see that everybody was perfectly free to go and talk to

 7    whomever they wanted to talk to.

 8       Q.   Did anyone stand in the way of journalists trying to get in touch

 9    with the civilians, the European monitors or any of the medical staff?

10       A.   No.  No one stood in anybody else's way.  They took all the

11    pictures they wanted and pursued all of their plans.

12       Q.   We'll see later a particular portion where there were journalists

13    talking to you.  There were quite many journalists at the hospital as the

14    evacuation was being conducted; right?

15       A.   Yes.  I reckon over 50 journalists and cameramen.

16       Q.   Were you personally in touch with journalists?  Did they ask

17    questions about the men?  Had they already been told that some men had

18    been taken away before the crews got there?

19       A.   I talked to the journalists there and they saw for themselves when

20    the group from the barracks was returned, the group that I said should be

21    checked again in terms of why they had been taken away.  They asked me

22    where those people had been and I told them that we'd taken some people to

23    the barracks to be interrogated because they were crime suspects.

24            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to look

25    at a clip.  It's V0001131; that is the reference.  There's the B/C/S

Page 13645

 1    transcript for the time being, 3D060016.  I gave the B/C/S to the

 2    interpreters.  We don't have the English yet.  So, first of all, I would

 3    like to thank the interpreters for doing their best to cover this

 4    transcript, based on our B/C/S.  And then, first of all, I would like this

 5    to be marked for identification, and then once we have the English, the

 6    whole thing to be admitted.  This is an excerpt from the Belgrade TV news

 7    that evening; it goes on for several minutes.

 8                          [Videotape played]

 9            THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] A little later, someone from the Red

10    Cross headed for the Vukovar Hospital.  It's some kilometres from the

11    centre of town.  I see a street leading from the centre of town to the

12    Vukovar Hospital.  To the right of this convoy, there's the police

13    station, or rather, the MUP, the Croatian MUP station.  Next to it is the

14    municipal court.

15            Yesterday, there was firing from that building and we saw soldiers

16    bringing out hundreds of rifles from that building which members of the

17    National Guard and the Croatian MUP had discarded as they were running for

18    the hospital where some of them were hiding.  This is the entrance to the

19    hospital, and we see the representatives of the European Mission.

20            Sljivancanin:  You will allow these vehicles and these entering

21    the hospital and the people to wear white coats with these insignia and

22    the Red Cross signs so they can come in.

23            Unidentified voice:  The rest, nothing.  The rest, nothing.

24            Sljivancanin:  Everybody should do their own job which means that

25    nobody else would be allowed through.

Page 13646

 1            Journalist:  These are the civilians who had fled who were in the

 2    hospital compound.

 3            Sljivancanin:  We'll do the transport in that direction.  Let them

 4    take this road here [ unintelligible].

 5            Journalist:  According to press agencies, there are about 400

 6    civilians.

 7            Sljivancanin:  Don't push.  There will be enough room for

 8    everyone.

 9            Journalist:  They are leaving on buses on their way to a holding

10    centre; from there, to Sid, and from Sid, depending on their choice, just

11    as on the previous days, or else they remain in their homes, if they still

12    have roofs over their heads.  Since, for the most part, they don't, they

13    are leaving for cities in Serbia or other cities in Croatia, according to

14    their choice.  By the way, we tried to get into the hospital yesterday but

15    our crew was not allowed inside.

16            As we can see, for the most part, these are women and elderly

17    people, because all the others are being screened, which means the

18    remaining men aged between 16 and 60, because there is a suspicion that

19    they are disguised in civilian clothes but, in actual fact, are members of

20    the Croatian MUP and the other paramilitary units.  It is precisely in the

21    same direction that this convoy is moving across the way that there is a

22    mass grave containing Serb bodies, being patients of the hospital who had

23    received medical treatment, being people against whom crimes were

24    committed.

25            The evacuation of patients from the Vukovar Hospital is now

Page 13647

 1    beginning and is being monitored by the Red Cross and the European

 2    Mission.  We don't know for the time being which medical centre they're

 3    being evacuated to, whether to Sremska Mitrovica or Sid, which would be

 4    the closest towns, but there will probably be a triage conducted as well.

 5            This is the inside of the hospital.

 6            Unidentified voice:  [unintelligible].

 7            Journalist:  Let me repeat:  There are about 420 ill and seriously

 8    wounded in the hospital.  These are the first frames of what the hospital

 9    looks like inside.  It is obviously overcrowded.

10            Unidentified voice:  This is the hospital.  This is where you

11    administer anaesthetics.

12            Uniformed person:  All the time throughout the last three months

13    [unintelligible] no chance.  How many operations, I don't know.

14            Unidentified voice:  What do you think about all of this?

15            Uniformed person:  I think it's dreadful.  It's really, really

16    dreadful.

17            Unidentified voice:  Will all of this end today?

18            Uniformed person:  Yes, I hope so.

19            Journalist:  That's as much as I know, given the fact that the

20    hospital was overcrowded and there is only one room for performing

21    surgery, and that is the room that you saw a minute ago.

22            We must also say that a month ago, the military authorities asked

23    the Vukovar Crisis Staff for civilians and children to be evacuated from

24    this building.  They were attempts by various international humanitarian

25    organisations for the civilians and children to leave town, but there was

Page 13648

 1    a firm refusal by the Croatian authorities to allow this.  This is an

 2    aggravating circumstance which seems to --

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We are unable to work from

 4    two voices speaking at the same time.  Thank you.

 5            [Voiceover] Journalist:  The evacuation of the patients is

 6    underway and will be finished by evening time, as a fellow journalist

 7    Grulevic [phoen] from VRS News has told us.

 8            Unidentified voice:  Don't.  Stop this.  Let the women out

 9    [unintelligible].

10            Journalist:  In Vukovar Hospital, throughout these horrors, even

11    the maternity ward kept on working.  The man in a white suit is a BBC

12    journalist.  In situations like these, even journalists can be moved by

13    what is going on and they can be found assisting civilians.  This is all

14    happening outside the hospital.

15            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  On account of the

16    exceptionally poor sound quality, the record is unreliable.  Thank you.

17            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this video into

18    evidence now and the -- well, we have the interpretation.  It goes with

19    the transcript.  I'm not sure what we should do about this.  Perhaps we

20    should wait for an official translation from CLSS, or perhaps we can just

21    take it as it comes and, with the assistance of our interpreters, have

22    this record tendered into evidence.

23            MR. MOORE:  Could I -- may I --

24            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Moore.

25            MR. MOORE:  May I object to that course at the moment.  I thought

Page 13649

 1    my learned friend had indicated that he would want it to be marked for

 2    identification subject to translation.  That would be my first point.

 3            The second point is this:  I'm sure it's our fault, but we cannot

 4    find the video anywhere in documents disclosed to us.  It may be an

 5    oversight on our behalf, but if my learned friend, over the luncheon

 6    adjournment or the next break, could tell us where it is, I would be very

 7    grateful, so we can check it.

 8            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Lukic, if you could bring that matter up when

 9    we return after the break, having, hopefully by then, resolved it.

10            That then, of course, brings us to a convenient time for the

11    break.  We will continue at a quarter to 1.00.

12                          --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

13                          --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

14            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Lukic.

15            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Finally, just to inform the Chamber of

16    our discussion with the OTP during the break.  We submitted to the OTP a

17    list of our documents, exhibits and documents, the 65 ter list for those

18    that we intend to use for Mr. Sljivancanin's evidence; we provided numbers

19    for three or four video clips.  These are all numbers from their own 65

20    ter list exhibits, that is, proposals by the OTP, and the clip that we saw

21    before the break is part of this video list, such as all the ones that

22    we've been showing so far.  This is OTP evidence.  I can't quite nail this

23    number for them - I'm not sure if it's in our submission - but they should

24    be familiar with this document because it's their document.

25            As for the transcript, my proposal is we wait for an official

Page 13650

 1    translation into English.  So the transcript could be marked for

 2    identification, but I think the video clip should be admitted into

 3    evidence simply because it appears to be an OTP document.  It's the last

 4    six and a half minutes of the clip that I marked before it was shown.  The

 5    clip itself is two and a half hours long, if I remember correctly.

 6            JUDGE PARKER:  We will receive the clip as an exhibit and the

 7    transcript will be marked for identification.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the video clip will become Exhibit

 9    837, while the transcript will become MFI 838.

10            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11       Q.   Mr. Sljivancanin, I do not mean to lead, but in this clip we saw a

12    man wearing a white suit and the journalist said something about him.

13    What exactly was going on?  Did you talk to that man?  What else happened

14    at the hospital during the, let me call it, evacuation of the patients?

15       A.   I know the man in white really well.  If he's monitoring what goes

16    on here as a journalist, if he wants to know, I would like to greet him

17    because I think that he was a great, respectful person.  I believe his

18    coverage is faithful.  His name is Martin Bell.  He is a journalist from

19    England.

20       Q.   Did you talk to him at one point, and what was it about?

21       A.   We talked that day at the hospital, because this gentleman came to

22    see me and said that Mr. Borsinger had held a press conference near the

23    hospital somewhere and that he spoke in exceptionally scathing terms of

24    the JNA.  Mr. Bell said, "I am an eyewitness, I have been an eyewitness to

25    everything going on here nearly from day 1.  And particularly in relation

Page 13651

 1    to this morning, I see that the JNA are doing their best and taking all

 2    the steps needed.  I would regret such an interview becoming publicly and

 3    internationally known.  I suppose you issue an official denial and I can

 4    organise your own press conference if you like."  I said, "Sir, but I

 5    simply don't know what Mr. Borsinger was saying at this press conference."

 6    And he said he would hand me the very camera that was used to tape that

 7    interview and that I should follow the small screen of that camera to see

 8    what Borsinger had said at the meeting.  I asked him to please wait until

 9    I had a chance to speak to my superiors.

10            As far as I remember, I went to see Colonel Pavkovic and perhaps

11    also the liaison officer, who was also a colonel.  I think his name was

12    Memisevic.  I told them what Mr. Martin Bell had told me previously, and I

13    asked Pavkovic to have a look and see if he could, perhaps, give an

14    interview.  Mr. Pavkovic said, "Since you were here throughout the

15    morning, you know what was going on and you know these journalists, too.

16    The best course of action would be for you to issue an official denial and

17    to give the interview."

18            I found Mr. Bell later on.  They brought some interpreters.  I

19    took about half an hour, perhaps more, first to listen to Mr. Borsinger's

20    statement.  There were a lot of untruths being said.  Martin Bell

21    organised a press conference next to the hospital.  A huge number of

22    journalists assembled.  I gave a brief statement for the benefit of the

23    journalists, and the liaison officer, Colonel Memisevic was interpreting.

24       Q.   I won't ask you exactly what you stated on that occasion.

25            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please play another video from

Page 13652

 1    the OTP list, V0003250.  Again, we have a transcript in B/C/S which we

 2    provided to the interpreters; 3D060019.  I hope that they will be

 3    successful in giving us a hand with the statement made by

 4    Mr. Sljivancanin.

 5                          [Videotape played]

 6            THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Gentlemen of the press, this is the

 7    Yugoslav People's Army.  I'm proud to be at the helm of such soldiers and

 8    such officers.  This army has been imposed a war and major problems are

 9    created by those who do not think well of the army.  We are fighting to

10    help every decent person and citizen of this country.  I believe that you

11    witnessed for yourself in this town of Vukovar when we pulled out and

12    salvaged the wounded and, at the same time, the civilian population from

13    cellars, from tunnels, from all the places where the Ustasha units were

14    keeping them.  And finally, you also saw when we finally took Vukovar, not

15    for a single moment did any soldier, any officer, try to point his weapon

16    or anything in order to take revenge on any civilian or any citizen that

17    we captured here, even though they may have been on the other, opposite

18    side, as a member of the Ustasha formations.  And I'm particularly pleased

19    because of that and I'm proud that we should be comporting ourselves with

20    such dignity and integrity.

21            Secondly, gentlemen, we sought to show to all journalists, to all

22    international organisations, and to every person, everything that is

23    happening in this city.  Never did we defend anyone, prevent anyone, or

24    advocate that anyone should not come and see what the JNA units are doing,

25    nor are we doing that today, nor are we preventing them today from doing

Page 13653

 1    that in respect of the evacuation of this hospital.

 2            Although there were comrades, i.e., gentlemen from international

 3    organisations, who wanted to hold meetings behind closed doors and would

 4    not allow journalists to record everything that they wanted to tell us,

 5    then, also, I told you -- I told you that I didn't mind, that you can

 6    record everything because here, we are doing nothing clandestinely.  We

 7    are only doing what all our people want in order to save all our people

 8    and all men of integrity.

 9            Certain gentlemen from the International Red Cross arrive at

10    Vukovar and, for the most part, stroll around and observe as if they had

11    come to review the JNA units in some sort of a control exercise.  I asked

12    them whether they were interested in the wounded, the injured, and the

13    unattended-to young soldiers from my army.  Never did they show any such

14    interest, but they went to every length to come here, although we are

15    caring for these wounded here.  In fact, not in a single moment did they

16    help us, the army, through the organisation of the Red Cross, for any

17    evacuation to be undertaken or for any aid, in medicaments, in food, or in

18    clothing, or any other items to be forthcoming to help us.  We had to do

19    it all on our own, to take proper care for about 10.000 population --

20    people in Vukovar, whereas they seek to portray themselves as coming here

21    constantly as a humanitarian organisation and as being neutral.  If they

22    are neutral, if they are a humanitarian organisation, then they should not

23    choose whom they should help but they should help all the people in

24    Vukovar, irrespective of their national affiliation.

25            This morning I said to one gentleman that here I was in my own

Page 13654

 1    homeland, in my own country, and I am the commander; I shall respect and

 2    recognise his laws and everything that he tells me when I come to his

 3    country.  I offer them all conceivable hospitality, everything that I

 4    could.  We provided fuel and food and accommodation for them and we took

 5    them where they wanted.  But the gentlemen failed to comprehend that there

 6    is a war being waged here and that the life of every single soldier of

 7    mine is very, very important [unintelligible].

 8            Unknown voice:  [unintelligible].

 9            Sljivancanin:  These people [unintelligible] actually should have

10    done that, irrespective of whose side they are aligned with, and no decent

11    doctor or any individual on the medical staff should fear anything,

12    because -- yes?

13            Unidentified voice:  There was some misunderstandings this morning

14    with the Red Cross organisation.  Has that been dealt with?

15            Commentator:  This was a question from SkyNews.

16            Sljivancanin:  No, there was no misunderstandings as far as we

17    were concerned.  No misunderstandings, gentlemen.  No misunderstandings as

18    far as we were concerned.  And I have to stress, once again, that this is

19    a war operations zone and that we are prosecuting war here and that we

20    have to abide by the time conditions and respect the operations being

21    conducted by JNA units.  You can hear that they are still shooting here

22    today, and we have to create conditions of security and safety for every

23    person and every organisation coming here.  And we have to have patience

24    and we have to be patient now because we don't have peace here, but just

25    ordinary life and this is everyday life.  And you or anybody else ...

Page 13655

 1    [unintelligible].

 2            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is part of

 3    Mr. Sljivancanin's interview which has already become Exhibit 138 during

 4    Mr. van Lynden's evidence.  Just half a minute, I think.  So now I would

 5    like to suggest this entire video recording be admitted into evidence, and

 6    once we get the transcript with the official translation into English,

 7    that we tender that as a separate exhibit.

 8            JUDGE PARKER:  The video will be received.

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 839, Your Honours.

10            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11       Q.   Mr. Sljivancanin, where was Mr. Borsinger?  Did you see him in

12    that period while you were at the hospital?

13       A.   I really do not know --

14            MR. MOORE:  Your Honour, sorry, before we proceed, what is going

15    to happen about the possibility of a transcript?

16            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Moore, I was waiting for the answer to the

17    question.

18            MR. MOORE:  My apologies.

19            JUDGE PARKER:  I'd better confirm that we have the transcript in

20    the unofficial form, and I was going to propose it be treated in the same

21    way as the previous transcript, that is, marked for identification as 840.

22            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The B/C/S of this transcript is

23    3D060019, so could we please now have it marked for identification.

24            THE REGISTRAR:  It is marked for identification with the reference

25    840.

Page 13656

 1            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   I asked you whether you saw Mr. Borsinger and whether you

 3    prohibited him from entering the hospital.  That's my second question and

 4    then let's move on.

 5       A.   I've already given you my answer; that I never prohibited him from

 6    doing that, not him, not anyone else.  After this interview of mine, which

 7    I think was after 1.00 on that day, perhaps around 2.00 - I don't know the

 8    exact time - I did not meet Mr. Borsinger.  I only saw him on the evening

 9    of the 21st.  I assume -- well, yes, we're going to discuss that a bit

10    later.

11       Q.   That was in Negoslavci; right?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Could you just give us a brief description, and you mentioned that

14    a few moments ago, when these people came, the people who were brought

15    from the buses to the barracks, what happened then?

16       A.   As for the list that I sent to the barracks, as far as I can

17    remember now, I think that on the list there were 20 to 24 persons, and

18    this was handed over to me by these ladies at the hospital.  This was a

19    plain piece of paper and they wrote the names down in their own hand.

20            Major Ljubisa Vukasinovic brought them on the bus.  It was

21    sometime after all went into the hospital, perhaps after 11.00, closer to

22    12.00, if I can put it that way.  Then, when the Major came, he said to

23    me -- roughly, these were his words:  "Comrade Major, I had problems in

24    the barracks because members of the Territorial Defence think that you are

25    releasing the most notorious Ustashas, and that you did that last night at

Page 13657

 1    Mitnica, too.  They came to around the barracks and they tried to mistreat

 2    people who I got out of the bus to return them here to the hospital, as

 3    you had asked.  That is why I ask you not to send me out on such

 4    assignments."  This was roughly his report to me.

 5            I asked him:  "Did you return the people who were on the list?"

 6    And he said, "Yes."  I asked him whether, in the barracks, whether

 7    Lieutenant Colonel Miodrag Panic was in the barracks, and he said, "Yes."

 8    I asked him whether Lukic was there, Lieutenant Colonel Lukic.  He said

 9    that he was there and that a military police company was there, Captain

10    Predojevic's company, and that the buses were safe.

11            At that moment a group appeared, in actual fact, of members of the

12    Territorial Defence that was brought by Miroljub Vujevic.  There was this

13    small incident there, it so happened.  They expressed their revolt to me,

14    so to speak, as to why I wanted to return those people to the buses.

15    Vukasinovic even reacted a bit severely to one of these people and I

16    reacted, too, so this was quickly resolved.

17            I warned Mr. Vujevic, because I knew that he was one of the

18    commanders in the Territorial Defence, that he should warn his people not

19    to behave towards me in an unsoldierly way, and that he should say what it

20    was that they wanted.  He said that he knew that these were members of

21    paramilitary formations and what kind of crimes they committed.  I said to

22    him, "All right.  If you know, you will tell me and we will look into it

23    and we will see what is true and what is not true."

24            After that, I called some doctors from the Vukovar Hospital; I

25    called the members of the military police.  And Mr. Vujevic was there.  I

Page 13658

 1    asked this group of people to get off the bus.  I was calling out their

 2    names from that list, one by one.  I asked Vujevic what he had to say to

 3    me about each and every one of these persons and what they had done

 4    wrong.  That they were not wearing uniforms and that they were not

 5    carrying weapons, so I did not think that they did anything wrong and I

 6    let all these 20 people go with their families except for four.

 7            Four persons from that group said -- I remember that very well,

 8    that -- I mean they themselves admitted, nobody forced them to say this,

 9    that at the gasoline station in Vukovar, they killed some people and they

10    said who it was that they had killed.  And I said to their families and to

11    them that they had to go to be interrogated in prison.  And I asked Major

12    Vukasinovic that these four be returned again to the group of suspects

13    that were being sent to prison, and I released the rest.  As for that

14    case, as for that case, that is how it was resolved.

15       Q.   We have some exhibits here, 331 and 333, and we are not going to

16    place them on the screen now.  You saw them.  They say that the convoy

17    with the wounded left the hospital around 1430 hours.  I'm going to ask

18    you the following:  Were you there when the convoy left the hospital, and

19    does that actually correspond to what your memory is in terms of when the

20    convoy left the hospital?  Just be brief.

21       A.   I was there when the convoy left and I think that the hour is

22    correct, too.

23       Q.   Do you remember, maybe, some details?  We heard Mara Bucko testify

24    before this Court, when you suggested to the medical staff that they stay

25    on and work in the hospital, even then.

Page 13659

 1       A.   Even then, and a few times during the course of the day, at the

 2    intervention of Dr. Ivezic, and some other doctors who decided to stay on

 3    working at the hospital, I asked some of them to stay on and work in the

 4    hospital, some of them who wanted to leave.  But many left, many did not

 5    want to stay.

 6       Q.   Now I'm going to put three questions to you.  Please answer

 7    briefly and then we will go on.

 8            During the course of that day, in the period when these buses were

 9    in barracks, did you come to the barracks at any point in time, and did

10    you enter the barracks in Vukovar?

11       A.   Never.  On that day, I never entered the barracks in Vukovar until

12    night-time.  At night-time, in the evening of the 20th of November, I was

13    at the gate of the barracks.

14       Q.   Were you ever at Velepromet in that period, on that day?

15       A.   On that day, during the course of that day, never.

16       Q.   On that day, evening, or night, at any point in time, were you in

17    Ovcara?

18       A.   On that day, I was not at Ovcara either during the day or during

19    the night, on that day, the 20th of November, 1991.

20       Q.   You said a few moments ago, about the barracks in Vukovar --

21    rather, who was the commander of the barracks, and within whose area of

22    responsibility was the Vukovar barracks on the day of the 20th of

23    November?

24       A.   As far as I know - but I would kindly like to ask that we use

25    documents more because maybe I'm making mistakes - the commander of the

Page 13660

 1    garrison was Lieutenant Colonel Lukic.  But I saw an order here as well

 2    that was presented to the Court that, on the 18th of November or before

 3    that, that Major Adem Bajic was commander of the barracks, appointed

 4    commander of the barracks, and the area around the barracks.  So out of

 5    these two, one was it, but it is hard for me to say now.

 6       Q.   To the best of your knowledge, who provided security of the

 7    barracks in Vukovar at that time, and what comprised this security?

 8       A.   According to all military regulations, the commander of barracks

 9    is responsible for the security of the barracks.  And the security

10    consisted of all the members who were there, especially the personnel who

11    were assigned to carry out those security duties.

12       Q.   According to the testimony we heard from quite a few witnesses

13    before this Court, the period when the buses left barracks is between 1330

14    and 1430 hours, to put it in general terms.  I'm going to put a few

15    questions to you in relation to the indictment and in relation to this

16    topic.

17            Mr. Sljivancanin, did you personally supervise the detention of

18    detainees in barracks during about two hours while the members of the TO

19    were exposing them to threats and psychological provocations?

20       A.   That is quite incorrect.  On that day, I was not in the barracks

21    and there are exact recordings, including video recordings, as to where I

22    was.

23       Q.   One more thing, Mr. Sljivancanin.  During that triage, during the

24    search, and while these persons were being taken away, did you see whether

25    in that hospital, within the hospital compound, by the buses, there were

Page 13661

 1    any volunteers, territorials?

 2       A.   I really did not observe any such thing.  I did not see that.

 3       Q.   We heard before this Court evidence to the effect that a meeting

 4    of the government of the Slavonia, Baranja, Western Srem government was

 5    held at that time.  I'm going to ask you whether you attended that

 6    government session at any point then.

 7       A.   Not for a moment was I present at that meeting.

 8       Q.   I'm just going to ask you something and then please answer me then

 9    and then we're going to hear the content.  When did you hear, and from

10    whom, that the government meeting was held?

11       A.   The first time I heard that the government session was held was on

12    the evening of the 20th, when I returned to my building in Negoslavci.  I

13    heard this from Captain Srecko Borisavljevic and later at the command post

14    from Colonel Mrksic.

15       Q.   During this period when the buses left and up until when you left

16    to Negoslavci - and you will tell us when this happened, if you can

17    specify this - where were you and what were you doing?

18       A.   After the buses left, I went to the shelter that I described to

19    you, near the hospital, where the demining had been completed.  So I

20    toured the entire shelter and that's where one of my security officers

21    was, Captain Karanfilov.  I tasked him with collecting the equipment that

22    was in that shelter.  And since the security administration had asked me

23    to have this done, I told them to have this taken to the security

24    administration in Belgrade.  I believe that immediately after that he

25    left.  I know that he took this and that this equipment did, indeed, reach

Page 13662

 1    the security administration.

 2            Night was already falling by then, by the time I returned from

 3    that shelter.  I went to see Dr. Ivezic in hospital, because there were

 4    other wounded persons who were left in the hospital and we agreed that he

 5    should prepare them to be evacuated on the following day.

 6            Then, the hospital staff offered to have a cup of coffee.  I sat

 7    with them for about an hour or so, perhaps even more.  We had coffee and

 8    they told me what they had experienced there before in the hospital.

 9       Q.   Where did you go then?

10       A.   I took my vehicle from there to the command post or to

11    Negoslavci.  Passing by the barracks, I stopped at the gate of the

12    barracks and that's where I saw Captain Mladen Predojevic -- Captain

13    Blagoje Predojevic, commander of the company of military police.  I cannot

14    be sure as to whether there was somebody else there with him.  Maybe there

15    were some other officers there, too, but he was there for sure.  It's

16    really hard for me to say whether there was anyone else.

17            In any event, Predojevic roughly said the following to me:  that

18    the evacuation from the barracks had taken place as planned, that the

19    soldiers were resting now, that his company was providing security, and

20    that no one was there any longer except for the soldiers, and that this is

21    the first night after so many sleepless nights where they can get some

22    better rest.

23            I gave him a bit of advice there.  I told him to take care of the

24    safety and security of the soldiers, I told him about the death of the

25    soldiers the previous night, and I proceeded along the road to Negoslavci.

Page 13663

 1            As I was passing by Velepromet, perhaps I stopped at Velepromet,

 2    but really it is hard for me to say all these things now.  If I stopped

 3    there, it was peaceful over there, too.  I don't remember that detail.

 4            And I came to my building in the village of Negoslavci.

 5       Q.   Did you find anyone there?

 6       A.   I found Srecko Borisavljevic.  When I went to see Predojevic, I

 7    was looking for him, too, at the barracks, and he said he had gone before

 8    I had arrived in Negoslavci.  So I called Major Vukasinovic as well.

 9    Major Vukasinovic told me this:  When he had returned those people from

10    the hospital and when he arrived at the barracks, the last thing

11    Predojevic told him was that an order had arrived from the commander that

12    those people should be taken to Ovcara, and that he had taken those people

13    to Ovcara, which surprised me.

14            He found the other people from barracks there and members of the

15    TO, including Miroljub Vujevic.  He said they were behaving - how should I

16    put it? - violently.  He warned Miroljub that this was no way to go about

17    this, or that's at least what he told me.  He restored order to that scene

18    and he said that all those people went into a hangar where the military

19    police of the 80th Motorised Brigade secured them.  The brigade's Chief of

20    Staff, Lieutenant Colonel Panic, was there, too.

21            After this, he went back to the command post and informed Colonel

22    Mrksic about all of this.  He said Mrksic told him nothing.  After that,

23    Srecko Borisavljevic told me this:  He said that there had been a

24    government meeting at Velepromet, or that's what it was now called, the

25    Baranja and Western Srem SAO, or what have you.  When they came there for

Page 13664

 1    the meeting, Srecko opposed this.  He refused to let them inside

 2    Velepromet.  After a while, Lieutenant Colonel Matko Petrovic appeared.

 3    He was from the moral guidance organ.  He conveyed to him the order and

 4    approval that Colonel Mrksic had granted for this meeting to be held at

 5    Velepromet.

 6            Srecko said that he had no further part in this, but he knew that

 7    Colonel Bogdan Vujic had attended the meeting.  Bogdan Vujic later told

 8    him that at the government meeting the decision had been taken for the

 9    suspects who had been taken from the hospital to the barracks to be handed

10    over to the government of Western Srem and Slavonia so that they could be

11    exchanged for captured Serbs.  Srecko asked him who had taken that

12    decision and Mr. Vujic apparently told him, "The powers that be."  This is

13    what I was told by my two security clerks when I reached Negoslavci.

14       Q.   Did Borisavljevic say anything about the previous evening at

15    Velepromet?

16       A.   He told me about that, too.  He said the previous evening there

17    had been a triage as planned and Colonel Vujic was in charge while he was

18    helping.  At one point in time, a drunken TO member appeared.  I think he

19    mentioned the name, too, but the name escapes me and it's very difficult

20    to remember what it was.  This man was sent away.  However, there was a

21    distinct possibility that more such people would appear at Velepromet.

22            I then told Srecko that he should go back to the barracks that

23    evening, that he should tell the barracks commander about this, and that

24    he should tell him, as well as the military police company commander, that

25    I said that should this man turn up again, they should arrest him.  And

Page 13665

 1    also to check whether, at Velepromet, there were other such people that

 2    were not put up properly.  If so, he should ask the commander for those

 3    people to be taken to spend the night at the barracks until they could be

 4    sent to wherever it was they were going in order to avoid any further

 5    mistreatment or harassment occurring.

 6            The next day, Srecko told me that he had done what I had told him

 7    to do and that he had spoken to the barracks commander.  But he also found

 8    out, apparently, that this man was from a detachment under the command of

 9    Milan Lancuzanin and that the commander had already sent him away from the

10    area of combat operations that same day.  This man was a volunteer and

11    therefore we had no power to arrest him, or probably that was the very

12    reason he had sent him away, because we were about to arrest that man.

13       Q.   Did you go to Colonel Mrksic's command to see him, and when?

14     A.  After the meeting with these officers, the one I told you about here,

15  I went to the command post and called in on Colonel Mrksic.  As far as I can

16   recall at this time, Colonel Mrksic was sitting there, as was Lieutenant

17   Colonel Panic, I think one of the operations officers, but I really cannot

18   remember everything, and there was definitely an officer sitting at the

19   signals desk.  I briefly reported on what was basically happening with

20   the hospital.  The Colonel told me that he had also been informed by

21   Colonel Pavkovic and that he was in constant contact with him.  We didn't

22    discuss that very much.  As far as I remember, he told me this:  "We have

23  completed our missions.  The Guards Brigade is pulling out to get some rest.

24    All the commitments in this area will be taken over by the 80th Motorised

25    Brigade and the Vukovar TO detachment.  Today, a government meeting was

Page 13666

 1    held of the Baranja, Slavonia, and Western Srem government at Velepromet.

 2    They will now start setting up civilian authorities.  They also took

 3    charge of a group of suspects from the hospital who had been brought to

 4    the barracks in order to later be exchanged for captured Serbs."

 5            He also said that he would be off to a meeting in Belgrade, a

 6    meeting with the Federal Secretary.  Having returned from that meeting, he

 7    would be making further decisions about what the brigade would be doing

 8    next.  He told me that the following day, the 21st of November, 1991,

 9    there would be a press conference at the Vukovar barracks, and that

10    Lieutenant Colonel Panic would be in charge of that.  He said that the

11    next morning, as soon as I'd rested, I should give Lieutenant Colonel

12    Panic a hand to make sure the whole thing went smoothly and safely.  He

13    also said that General Vasiljevic had asked to speak to me urgently, that

14    I should get in touch as quickly as possible, and that was the end of our

15    conversation.

16       Q.   What did you do next?

17       A.   I immediately used the services of that signals officer to speak

18    to General Vasiljevic in the security department.  All these days I've

19    been racking my brains trying to remember whether it was Mr. Vasiljevic

20    that I spoke to or a colonel who was on duty at the security

21    administration.  I seem to his name, Radojevic.  So it will much sooner

22    have been the colonel that I spoke to at the time.  But be that as it may,

23    he told me why Vasiljevic had asked to speak to me and wanted to see me.

24    He said that the general had ordered that first night that he came to see

25    me, for me to gather all the documents that I had taken from Marin Vidic

Page 13667

 1    and from other ZNG men and the hideout used by the commander of the ZNG,

 2    and send them immediately to the security administration.

 3            I told the colonel that the documents were already on their way to

 4    Belgrade and that they would be receiving those either during that same

 5    night or perhaps the following morning, and that was the end of that

 6    conversation.  I then went back to the building where I was billeted.

 7       Q.   What did you do next that evening?

 8       A.   As I was moving towards that building, I met some officers,

 9    Zvorcan, perhaps, or someone.  It was the TV news time, the evening news

10    time, and someone told me that some coverage from Vukovar had been

11    announced to cover what had transpired on that day.  And they also said

12    they would be showing footage of me.  This would be after the evening news

13    but it was something that was announced during the actual TV news.

14            He came up with the idea that we should see this programme

15    together.  I went to that house but there was no TV.  There was a TV set

16  at Colonel Mrksic's command post or at the press centre, but if you used the

17    generator, or as soon as there was electricity, you were able to watch TV.

18            That evening, we were able to watch TV and I watched all this

19    footage from Vukovar that was aired that night.  This went on until 11.00

20    in the evening, I believe.  I also saw the footage that I've just seen;

21    first of all, my talk with Borsinger at the bridge, and then the last

22    footage that was shown.  That programme was the footage from the press

23    conference organized by Martin Bell.

24       Q.   Mr. Sljivancanin, I've asked you about Ovcara, haven't I?  Did you

25    personally send anyone to Ovcara that day, that evening, that night?

Page 13668

 1       A.   No, I didn't send anyone to Ovcara that day, that evening, that

 2    night.

 3       Q.   Do you know that any of the officers from your own security organ,

 4    with the exception of Vukasinovic, which is something you've described for

 5    us, went to Ovcara that evening?

 6       A.   I'm certain that no one went because I knew the whereabouts of all

 7    my officers.  And I still know - and I can tell you - Vukasinovic was

 8    right there in Negoslavci.  He was a town commander.  Srecko Borisavljevic

 9    was off to the barracks on the business that I had charged him with.

10    Karanfilov was in the process of bringing documents from the shelter to

11    the security administration.  Karan was in Sremska Mitrovica with Captain

12    Bozic, about taking Marin Vidic, Bili; Vesna Bosanac; Njavro; and that man

13    from the company.

14       Q.   Did you hear about any military policemen from the Guards Brigade

15    being at Ovcara that night?

16       A.   I didn't know about that but I wasn't in a position to check where

17    the MPs were.  That was something for the military police commander to

18    do.  I don't know.

19       Q.   Let me rephrase something that the Prosecutor alleges in the

20    indictment.  Did you tell anyone to confer the powers and the orders --

21            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not understand Mr. Lukic's

22    question.

23       A.   First of all, that would be utter nonsense.  There was no chain of

24    command making it possible for anyone to carry out an order like that, nor

25    was I authorised to carry out any such orders, nor was I authorised to

Page 13669

 1    interfere with the area of responsibility of another unit.

 2            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My apologies to the interpreters.  I

 3    will try to ask this question again.

 4       Q.   The question was:  Did you tell anyone, did you personally convey

 5    to anyone, to inform or to convey or to order that the Ovcara order should

 6    be retracted?  You've provided the answer.  We can move on.

 7       A.   Should I say it again?

 8       Q.   I don't think that will be necessary.  Thank you.

 9            The next day, there was the press conference.  I wouldn't -- well,

10    maybe a couple of words.  But if you can tell me what you described.  Your

11    meeting again with Borsinger, when was it?  And, briefly, what was it

12    like?  What was the level of that conversation?

13       A.   The next morning, at about 7.00, the 21st of November, 1991, at

14    about 7.00, I reported to Lieutenant Colonel Panic and was off to the

15    Vukovar barracks.  I was there when the press conference took place.  I'm

16    not sure about the time, but I think it went on until about 12.00 or 1.00

17    p.m.

18            After that, I was tasked with taking the journalists - and I'm not

19    sure who was in charge of this - around Vukovar to show them all the

20    places where we had previously located shelters, bunkers, fortified

21    buildings, and all of the stuff that had gone on.  I remained with them

22    until nightfall.  There were other officers with us.

23            At one point I received a message via the radio that I had on me

24    all the time that people from the ICRC were looking for me.  The message

25    came through from Negoslavci.  I asked who this was, who these people were

Page 13670

 1    who were looking for me, and they said Mr. Borsinger was trying to track

 2    me down.  I said they should tell him that I was willing to talk to him

 3    and that it was possible for us to talk but not before 1900 hours that

 4    evening, if that was convenient for him, on account of my other

 5    commitments.  The answer came back that he had agreed.

 6            So we met, we had dinner together, on the 21st of November, 1991,

 7    at 1900 hours, in Vukovar.  And there were three our people from the ICRC

 8    accompanying him.  We had dinner for over two hours, and we talked.  The

 9    gentleman, so to speak, apologised, saying that he had not been aware of

10    our soldiers being killed.  He said he was sorry for any misunderstanding

11    that may have occurred between us, that we were always respectful in the

12    way we treated them.  I took that at face value and that brought our

13    meeting to an end.  It was a friendly and cordial end to that meeting.

14            MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no questions left

15    about Vukovar but I do have some questions left for Witness Sljivancanin.

16    I wanted to finish today, although I wasn't able to.  I also want to ask

17    some questions about what happened after Vukovar and complete my

18    examination-in-chief.

19            JUDGE PARKER:  We will adjourn now, Mr. Lukic, to resume on

20    Monday, in the afternoon, at 2.15.

21                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

22                          to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day of

23                          October, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.