Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15392

1 Monday, 27 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Mr. Moore.

6 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, may I deal with two matters, please? It

7 relates to both Prosecution and Defence applications.

8 The first is in respect of Mr. Sljivancanin's expert, Mr. Vuga.

9 The Court will have received his report. I understand and may I say we

10 have discussed this matter before coming into court, so I hope I

11 accurately reflect what has been said and agreed. But that expert will be

12 coming in, I believe, on Friday afternoon with a hope for him to give

13 evidence, I believe, on the Monday.

14 There may be a difficulty and it is as follows: Your Honour may

15 remember when we presented the report of Mr. Pringle. Mr. Pringle's

16 report had originally relied in some respects on witness statements, and

17 in due course, he was then given transcripts of evidence and asked whether

18 he considered his report had changed in any way at all as a result of the

19 evidence as opposed to the witness statement. I understand that what is

20 going to be done by the Defence is the same process, that they will show

21 next weekend the witness statements -- sorry, the transcript of the

22 witnesses who Mr. Vuga relies upon. The trouble, as I see it, is as

23 follows: I suspect my learned friend will be asking the witness to look

24 at the transcript, to ask whether it changes his report in any material

25 particular. I don't know and neither does Mr. Lukic know whether that is

Page 15393

1 going to be the case. But if I may deal with worst case scenario, it

2 means really two things, firstly, that there will have to be an addendum

3 to the report which we will receive probably on Monday, which will not

4 give us enough time for our own expert to look at that report and to

5 evaluate it for obviously the same day. So that is the first problem that

6 I foresee.

7 I don't know if it is possible for the transcripts to be sent to

8 Mr. Vuga from today so that a supplementary report or addendum can be

9 created and then we can proceed. But I am just concerned that with Mr.

10 Vuga getting the report only at the weekend we will not have enough time

11 to assess the weight of his report and whether it is changed in any

12 significant way. So without any intention, we are, I believe, at risk of

13 being substantially disadvantaged.

14 So that is the first matter that I would wish to raise.

15 JUDGE PARKER: You did say that you discussed this before the

16 Chamber came in. Was there any sight of a solution?

17 MR. MOORE: Well, I think there is a willing by Mr. Lukic to try

18 to help. I don't deny that in any way, but for my part, I would have

19 thought having dealt with this problem myself that the witness often needs

20 a few days to look at the transcript and assess if it changes his report

21 because, clearly, he may well be cross-examined on transcripts and on

22 evidence, not just report. But my learned friend will be able to know the

23 availability of the witness and what he will be able to do and what he

24 wants to do.

25 JUDGE PARKER: You were moving to a second matter, Mr. Moore.

Page 15394

1 MR. MOORE: The second matter deals with Witness 002, and the

2 diary of 002. The Court had initially asked me for 002 to be made

3 available to give evidence on the 11th of December. We did that. Matters

4 have moved a little quicker than perhaps we had anticipated, although it

5 will be fairly close, and therefore, I have asked for 002 to be brought to

6 the Court, I believe it is the 6th of December.

7 The problem that we may have in relation to that is as follows:

8 My learned friend has asked for the whole diary to be translated. Now,

9 obviously, we have translated parts over and above that which we deemed

10 relevant, but from what I understand is I believe it's something like 130

11 pages to be translated upon my learned friend's request. The translators

12 or the translation section say they cannot do it. Firstly, it's too big a

13 task but perhaps more importantly, they find it very difficult to decipher

14 the writing. We've had this problem before, if Your Honour remembers,

15 with Mr. Kypr, where sometimes individuals had a style that can vary.

16 What I was suggesting to my learned friend was as follows -- or

17 twofold. First, I have not mentioned to him but I mention now. If in

18 actual fact there are any parts that he wants to have translated and he

19 himself, Mr. Borovic, believes that he can interpret it, would he be kind

20 enough to give us what he believes to be the translation of that part. We

21 will ask for the interpretation section to look at it and we will ask 002

22 to confirm whether that is correct. That is one option.

23 The second option is as follows: That 002 is brought in on the

24 6th, as we hope we can now do, that he then sits down with a translator or

25 an interpreter and goes through the parts that my learned friend wishes to

Page 15395

1 have interpreted, and then we can have an agreed transcript of what that

2 witness believes to be the accurate record of what he said. In my

3 submission, that is the better option because it will be on the basis of

4 his interpretation of the document, and therefore my learned friend would

5 be in a position to cross-examine in the following way, isn't it right you

6 came on Wednesday, you sat with some interpreters, you went through and

7 you agreed this was what was said? And therefore, there is a validity in

8 the cross-examination.

9 So I just ask for the Court's guidance in relation to this. For

10 my part, I would submit that the second option is the better and more

11 accurate option and will not affect the overall timetable because the

12 witness will still be able to give evidence on Monday, the 11th as you had

13 originally requested.

14 Those are the two matters.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, thank you, but the Chamber had been

16 driven to the 11th by the prospect that Mr. Lukic would not finish his

17 case until Friday, the 8th. The signs at present are that he will finish

18 his case probably on the 6th.

19 MR. MOORE: I would think so.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Because of that, it may even be earlier, but

21 because of that, we have moved forward the timetable for P002 to give his

22 further evidence, to the Thursday and Friday, the 5th and 6th.

23 MR. MOORE: Yes.

24 JUDGE PARKER: You are now contemplating a procedure that would

25 extend him into the following week which we understood from counsel was

Page 15396

1 not terribly convenient. It certainly makes it difficult for me to finish

2 some other matters and hearings that I am trying to fit into that last

3 week.

4 MR. MOORE: Yes.

5 JUDGE PARKER: So the question that arises is whether you see it

6 as possible for 002 to come even earlier in that week, earlier than

7 Wednesday.

8 MR. MOORE: I can certainly ask for that to be done. The other

9 option of course is this: That he is called, my learned friends have got

10 copies of the diary. He can be called, perhaps not on the 6th, but on the

11 7th, or if he's here I can get him a day earlier on the 6th, and there is

12 cross-examination of him on the document. The only problem that I foresee

13 as a practical problem and that is that my learned friend -- I mean it in

14 the nicest possible way of saying, it doesn't say that, it says this and

15 the witness says, no, it doesn't say that, it says this. And one is left

16 with an impasse and I would have thought that the situation not resolved.

17 For my part, I thought it was better that one looked at the areas that my

18 learned friend wants to cross-examine on, get the witness to say what it

19 is that section reports, have that transcribed and then my learned friend

20 could cross-examine on an agreed translation. But I will certainly do

21 what Your Honour wishes and try and bring him in earlier again.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that. The difficulty with the option

23 you offer as a solution is you don't take account of the possibility of

24 Mr. Lukic not agreeing with the witness's understanding of his own diary.

25 An impasse may well result. That is something which this Chamber has

Page 15397

1 become accustomed to in this case.

2 MR. MOORE: I think unusually it's not Mr. Lukic who is contesting

3 the diary. I think it's Mr. Borovic who will be dealing with the problem.

4 I think -- it's Mr. Lukic as well. My apologies. I should have known.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore. Now, Mr. Lukic, first the

6 expert.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would only like to make comments in

8 relation to the expert because the diary is something that I leave to Mr.

9 Borovic, not because I'm any less interested, but because I have enough on

10 my plate, that is our team has, concerning some other issues. As for the

11 expert, I think it might be helpful to reach some sort of a clear cut

12 solution. I talked to Mr. Moore this morning about that. I undertook

13 firstly that Mr. Vuga would be in The Hague as soon as Thursday, probably

14 Thursday afternoon, but we will be able to work with him, to proof him on

15 Friday, Saturday and Sunday, given that Mr. Susnjar testifies on Friday.

16 Mr. Bulatovic and I have distributed tasks among ourselves and

17 I'll be able to start work with Mr. Vuga straight away. My assumption is

18 there will be very few changes to his report, very few things that are

19 new. I wish to show him a number of transcripts but only both of relevant

20 testimonies that have any bearing on his report. As for any new exhibits

21 that he's not aware of, I think there are a mere handful, since he was

22 already familiar with most of the exhibits at the time he drafted his

23 report, including those we exhibited through Mr. Sljivancanin. There are

24 maybe five or six new exhibits that might have any bearing at all on his

25 report.

Page 15398

1 It is a technical impossibility for him to familiarise himself

2 with the transcripts. He speaks German but he does not speak English. I

3 don't think it's possible for anyone from our team to walk him through it.

4 That would be very difficult. One thing that I can promise, and undertake

5 on behalf of our team, is that by 10.00 on Monday, if there is any

6 information to suggest that amendments should be made to his report, we

7 will do it by 10.00 Monday in a written form. If everything goes to

8 schedule, he should start testifying on Tuesday, in all likelihood. In

9 the expectation that there will be few changes if any to his report, I

10 think that should provide more than sufficient time for everyone else to

11 examine him that Tuesday and Wednesday.

12 What might require an additional effort on the part of the

13 Registry is this. I see that we are scheduled for the morning of the 5th

14 of December, whereas at half past 5 p.m., I see a status conference

15 scheduled in this courtroom in another case. If we could switch things

16 around there too so Mr. Vuga could perhaps start on the afternoon of the

17 5th that should be sufficient time, provided we submit any changes by

18 Monday morning, that should provide sufficient time for everybody else to

19 prepare for their examination of Mr. Vuga. At any rate, I think we will

20 not be requiring more than a single session for the examination-in-chief

21 of Mr. Vuga, possibly even less, which means that the other parties will

22 have the remaining part of Tuesday and that Wednesday to cross-examine

23 him. And then we have the 7th and the 8th of December freed up in this

24 way, to do whatever it takes in relation to Witness 002.

25 If Mr. Susnjar finishes early on Monday, or perhaps even as early

Page 15399

1 as Friday, then we might want to not sit on Monday and then, if Tuesday

2 afternoon is possible, I think everybody would be happy with that and two

3 days with Mr. Vuga would be perfectly sufficient. One thing I can say

4 right is with a high degree of certainty that there will be very few

5 changes, if any, to his report. Maybe a handful of transcripts of certain

6 witnesses that I'll be telling him about as you may be able to assume,

7 these are our Defence witnesses that he perhaps was not familiar with at

8 the time he produced his report. I think that would be a proposition by

9 our Defence that is more than understandable. Of course, it is always up

10 to the Chamber to rule on the matter.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, can I say first that I would anticipate

12 it will not be practical to change from an afternoon to a morning or a

13 morning to an afternoon. A listing of that nature late in the day

14 indicates to me that there has been a need to find that time when either

15 counsel or Judges are available because of their involvement in some other

16 case in the Tribunal. It's an unusual hour for a conference. So that I

17 suspect you will find that either counsel or Judges or perhaps both are

18 engaged and aren't available before that time. Of course, if it should be

19 available, this Chamber is happy to move to the afternoon. But you must

20 plan, I think, on the basis that it will be in the morning.

21 Second, if the witness is arriving perhaps on Thursday, the

22 question arises whether it might be possible to give notice at least

23 orally earlier than Monday morning at 10.00, so that there is a more

24 opportunity for Mr. Moore and his team to look at the nature of the

25 changes. I appreciate it may be impractical to think of written notice

Page 15400

1 before 10.00 a.m. on Monday, but oral notice may perhaps be possible by

2 Saturday evening.

3 May even be by Friday.

4 So if you could keep that in mind. Thank you.

5 The expert is clearly going to challenge both sides to ensure that

6 the witness and his evidence, the evidence of the witness, is able to

7 proceed with reasonable efficiency. And given the circumstances, the

8 expected arrival of the witness on Thursday, it ought to be possible for

9 some adequate notice, at least orally, to reach Mr. Moore in time to

10 enable the preparation for the evidence which is expected to commence on

11 Tuesday of the following week, with full written notice on the Monday

12 morning by 10.00 a.m. So I think if we can have goodwill on both sides

13 there, the expert situation may be able to resolve itself.

14 We turn now to Mr. Borovic and P002.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I

16 think there is no problem about that at all. The note in relation to P002

17 was scanned in a single day and it's already part of the system, which is

18 ahead of the deadline that was imposed on us. As for the translation,

19 it's not 132 pages, there are certain pages that only contain a single

20 sentence. I think the total number of pages involved in that particular

21 translation would not be beyond 10 pages. I move that P002 be called on

22 the 4th of December, which is a Monday, and as Mr. Moore proposed, the

23 witness, my own associate, who is a translator, and I can deal with the

24 whole thing, which means that we can submit that translation or revisions

25 very soon to the OTP and we can start on Wednesday which should be easy

Page 15401

1 enough. It should be very easy to organise this new and amended schedule.

2 It should be easy enough to deal with if the Prosecutor intends to call

3 the witness on the 4th or on the 5th, Monday or Tuesday.

4 It only takes one day for our own operation, that is interpreting

5 the meaning of the words written down by him. He can just read them out,

6 we can make a transcript and translate the whole thing. Even I was able

7 to deciphers as many as 90 per cent of the words in that note because

8 there is actually very little text. We followed the guidelines of the

9 Chamber and we only had certain paragraphs translated. Two-thirds are in

10 relation to things outside Vukovar that wasn't translated and that wasn't

11 scanned. The scanning was only done because the Registry insisted that we

12 should be able to inspect the whole document. So the OTP agrees we can be

13 two days early with this witness. With my own assistant and with a

14 translator, we can deal with this in a single day. I guarantee that.

15 It's maybe one or two lines a page.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic. We would, I think, add to

17 what you're contemplating. Firstly, of course, what is in mind is that

18 the witness would actually give evidence on Thursday or Friday. That is

19 the 7th or the 8th of December. He will be recalled then when Mr. Lukic's

20 case is finished. Mr. Moore has indicated he will look into the

21 possibility of the witness arriving earlier than Wednesday the 6th, to

22 facilitate the witness looking at the diary.

23 Another thing that appears would greatly facilitate the whole

24 process for everybody would be that if you and Mr. Lukic were able to

25 identify those pages or parts of pages which are of interest to you,

Page 15402

1 instead of dealing with the whole of the diary, as you indicate, about

2 two-thirds of which are of no relevance to this case whatsoever. If we

3 know just what are the parts that are of interest to you and Mr. Lukic,

4 that would greatly speed up what has to be done by Mr. Moore and what

5 might need some interpretation.

6 So could we ask you and Mr. Lukic, by the end of this week, to

7 identify those parts of the diary? I would think it need only be a copy

8 of what has been photographed now, with a marking on the side of any

9 paragraphs that are of interest to you, and that would be enough, provided

10 to Mr. Moore to enable him then to have the witness concentrate on those

11 parts.

12 Are those suggestions satisfactory to you, Mr. Moore?

13 MR. MOORE: Yes, there is no problems about that. Thank you very

14 much.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will better get the witness in

16 before it's time to go home.

17 Oh, Mr. Domazet, you're lost to my sight there.

18 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. The

19 matter is I've just stood up. There is an issue that I wish to raise. It

20 will seem now that I discussed this with Mr. Lukic, but it really has

21 nothing to do with his proposal for Tuesday. It's this that I want to

22 discuss. I received permission from the Court or information that the

23 appeal in the Blagojevic case that I was in charge of would be dealt with

24 the middle of the following week. Blagojevic is scheduled for Tuesday, 8

25 to 12.30 and Wednesday, 8 to 12. There is no co-counsel, so I have sole

Page 15403

1 responsibility for that hearing. The problem is we have Tuesday and

2 Wednesday, the morning sessions, for this case, and as far as I can tell,

3 it's probably going to be Witness Vuga and I'm preparing for that witness

4 because Mr. Vasic will be examining two other very important witnesses

5 that same week.

6 Any changes now in terms of me leaving Mr. Vasic to do something

7 that I had been preparing, given the fact that he already has two very

8 important witnesses, would be an uphill struggle for our Defence team. I

9 am prepared of course to examine expert Witness Vuga and to do the

10 Blagojevic-Jokic appeal, but one thing I would like to ask is this, one

11 thing I was going to propose. What Mr. Lukic said: If possible to sit on

12 Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday too, if possible, although, personally, I

13 think if Mr. Lukic finishes the witness in a single session, I would

14 probably not be taking more than the following one and a half or two

15 sessions and would be wrapping up Witness Vuga on Tuesday. Tuesday would

16 be important if there is no option for Wednesday afternoon because I would

17 need to be in Courtroom I for the Blagojevic appeal.

18 Therefore, if in any way possible, there was only the half hour

19 for the Status Conference in the Limaj case that Tuesday, if that can be

20 moved or perhaps held in another courtroom, that would be very helpful

21 because I think Courtroom I happens to be not taken at the time. But

22 that's nothing for me to look into, needless to say. That's my proposal.

23 The situation I'm facing is extremely unpleasant. I was not consulted by

24 the Court about these dates. I was simply told that this would be taking

25 place the following week, and it was not within my power to change

Page 15404

1 anything about that.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Domazet, the Court is going to enquire into the

3 possibility whether there could be a move to the afternoon, not only

4 because of what you say, but already because of what Mr. Lukic had said.

5 The prospect, though, is still there that it will have to remain as it is.

6 Now, that may mean that you will need to alter the order in which you deal

7 with the witness to allow perhaps Mr. Borovic to go before you or in some

8 other way to accommodate the situation. As soon as we know whether there

9 can be a change in our listing from morning to afternoon, you will be

10 contacted and Mr. Lukic and all counsel so that you will know what it is

11 that lies ahead and how to plan your time.

12 It's going to be tight that week and next. One of the Judges of

13 this Chamber has to sit in another appeal, so there are difficulties at

14 every point. The problem is we have three courtrooms, we have many more

15 trials and appeals as well. So we will do what we can to assist.

16 At the moment, I don't think we can do more to help than to see

17 whether we can change the time of sitting. We will do that. Thank you.

18 The next witness, please.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir. Would you please read allowed

21 the affirmation on the card given to you now.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 15405

1 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.

2 Mr. Bulatovic.

3 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

4 afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

5 Examination by Mr. Bulatovic:

6 Q. And to you, Mr. Karanfilov.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. I will ask you now -- we have already discussed this, as we

9 prepared you for the testimony, to wait for me to finish my question and

10 then to start your answer for the sake of the transcript. Did you

11 understand me?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, I will now ask you for some details from your CV

14 and could you please confirm that they are correct. First of all, can you

15 please state your full name for the record?

16 A. Borce Karanfilov.

17 Q. When and where were you born?

18 A. 22nd of April 1963, in Kocani, Macedonia.

19 Q. Is it true that from 1977 to 1981 you attended the military high

20 school?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. From 1981 until 1985, you attended the military academy, the

23 infantry department?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. You began your service in the JNA in 1985 as a platoon commander

Page 15406

1 in the Guards Brigade?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In 1989, you were appointed the desk officer for the security

4 matters in the Guards Brigade; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In 1992, you received your new appointment in the security

7 department of the Secretariat of the Defence?

8 A. Yes, the security department in the Ministry of Defence.

9 Q. And where have you been since 2004?

10 A. In 2004, I became the head of a --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer?

12 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. As regards your rank, what rank do you hold?

14 A. I am a colonel of the Serbian army.

15 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, could you please wait for me to finish my question

16 and then you begin your answer and could you please repeat your answer as

17 to your posts since 2004?

18 A. I'm the chief of the section for securing persons and facilities

19 in the army and Ministry of Serbia.

20 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, now let us address the events that are the focus

21 of our attention here, the events in Vukovar. What I would like to know

22 is whether in 1991, you were in Vukovar.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you recall your post in 1991?

25 A. I was the officer -- I was an officer in the security department

Page 15407

1 in the Guards Brigade.

2 Q. Who was the chief of security in the Guards Brigade at that time?

3 A. It was Mr. Sljivancanin.

4 Q. Could you please explain to us here what were your tasks as the

5 officer in the security organ?

6 A. The security officer is in charge of counterintelligence, using

7 the legal means to do so and legal equipment to do so. What does it mean?

8 Using the proper equipment and methods of work, the security organ

9 detects, documents and prevents enemy activities of foreign intelligent

10 services, military intelligent services, aimed against the state and the

11 law and order. The military prevents, detects and documents the enemy

12 activities against the unit and within the unit itself. And also fights

13 all kinds of criminal activities within his or -- his purview. So that

14 would be the general idea.

15 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, could you please speak a little bit slower so that

16 the interpreters can keep up?

17 So among those tasks, were there any specific tasks that you had

18 while you were in Vukovar?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you please be more specific, what tasks?

21 A. I was in charge of the functioning of the roadblocks in Negoslavci

22 and the counter-intelligence protection of the rear command post of the

23 brigade.

24 Q. The rear command post of the brigade, where was it located, can

25 you please tell us?

Page 15408

1 A. It was located in the village of Berak and I was given this task

2 because one of my colleagues was absent.

3 Q. Could you please tell us where was the headquarters of the

4 security organ?

5 A. The security organs were located in the village of Negoslavci, in

6 a private house.

7 Q. When we are talking about the security organ, can you please tell

8 us how many people were there in the security organ?

9 A. Six in Vukovar.

10 Q. Could you please recall who were these people and what tasks, what

11 duties, they had?

12 A. It was Major Sljivancanin, as the chief. Major Vukasinovic as the

13 deputy. Captain First Class Karan, assistant for counter-intelligence.

14 Mr. Borisavljevic, myself, and warrant officer Momcilovic.

15 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, one date that is quite undisputed here is the 18th

16 of November, the day of the liberation or the occupation of Vukovar. Do

17 you remember that date, the 18th of November? Do you remember any

18 activities that you had on that date and what makes you still remember

19 those activities?

20 A. I don't remember the date. I have stated that several times now,

21 and I only remember the activities that are still etched in my memory.

22 Q. What events make you remember those events, not the date, but the

23 events -- what is the first event that is striking in your memory?

24 A. The first event is the negotiations on the surrender of the

25 Mitnica Battalion.

Page 15409

1 Q. As regards the surrender of the Mitnica Battalion, and we have

2 already determined that it happened on the 18th, so I will not be trying

3 to make you be more specific about the dates, but can you please tell me

4 what were your activities related to the surrender of the Mitnica

5 Battalion, who gave you those tasks and what kind of tasks did you have?

6 A. My first task was given to me by Major Sljivancanin, to prepare a

7 team for the direct, physical security of Colonel Pavkovic. And to take

8 that team and to secure -- to provide security for Colonel Pavkovic during

9 the negotiations at the site in this period. That's what I mean.

10 Q. Could we please now clarify who is Colonel Pavkovic?

11 A. Colonel Pavkovic is a representative of the cabinet of the federal

12 secretary of National Defence in Vukovar. He was in Vukovar.

13 Q. And when did you start performing this task?

14 A. This task was received in the morning. The team was set up, and

15 together with Colonel Pavkovic and the team, at around 10.00,

16 approximately, we left Negoslavci and went to a small house where the

17 negotiations were supposed to be held.

18 Q. And were negotiations in fact held?

19 A. Yes. There were negotiations. The representatives of the other

20 side arrived after we had, and the negotiations of the two parties were

21 held there.

22 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, were you in the room where the negotiations were

23 going on?

24 A. No, not during the negotiations.

25 Q. I'm asking you to wait for my question to finish.

Page 15410

1 A. We were not there during the negotiations. We stood in front of

2 the house until the negotiations ended.

3 Q. Do you remember -- do you know who participated in the

4 negotiations?

5 A. It was Mr. Pavkovic and the representative of the International

6 Red Cross, if I'm not mistaken, and I don't know who was there

7 representing the other side.

8 Q. Do you remember how long these negotiations lasted?

9 A. I think that the negotiations lasted between an hour and a half

10 and two hours.

11 Q. After the negotiations ended, Mr. Karanfilov, did you have any

12 activities related to the so-called Mitnica Battalion?

13 A. After the negotiations ended, I went back to Negoslavci with

14 Colonel Pavkovic, and then I reported to Major Sljivancanin that I had

15 been tasked by Colonel Pavkovic to head in an hour, hour and a half, to

16 start the process of the surrender of some units and Colonel Pavkovic had

17 already informed them that the negotiations had been successful and that

18 within an hour to an hour and a half, the ZNG units would start to

19 surrender.

20 Q. Could you specify the time when the surrender started and who was

21 present there, if you remember? Were you there? Was there anyone else

22 there with you?

23 A. It was in the afternoon. It was still daylight. I was there in

24 the immediate vicinity of Colonel Pavkovic, and in the course of the

25 surrender, there was also Mr. Sljivancanin there.

Page 15411

1 Q. Do you remember how long it took for them to surrender?

2 A. The process of surrender lasted until dusk. Now, I can't be more

3 specific as to the exact time.

4 Q. Were you there throughout the surrender until the surrender was

5 completed or not?

6 A. I can't say that I was, because just before nightfall, I received

7 the task to go to the location where the prisoners were put, and to tell

8 the commander of the security detail that the prisoners should be treated

9 in accordance with the rules, that nobody should be harmed in any way, and

10 that everybody should take great care about their conduct.

11 Q. Who gave you this task?

12 A. It was Mr. Sljivancanin.

13 Q. Did you know where the people from the Mitnica Battalion had been

14 taken to?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you start carrying out this task and what happened next?

17 A. Yes. I went there. It was dark by this time. When I arrived

18 outside the building, which was a hangar, I asked right outside who their

19 security commander was. The person I asked said it was he. I asked him

20 to bring the commander of the Mitnica battalion, Filip Karaula. After

21 this, I introduced myself, outside the hangar. I told him my name and my

22 rank. I told this to the commander of the Mitnica Battalion, Filip

23 Karaula and to the hangar security commander. I told them they should

24 bear in mind that the ZNG soldiers should abstain from provoking the

25 security inside the hangar in any way, on the one hand, and that the

Page 15412

1 security men themselves should strictly abstain from any taunts or

2 allowing themselves to be taunted by the captured members of the Mitnica

3 Battalion in any way on the other.

4 I then told the commander that if he believed it to be necessary,

5 if he thought it was important, he should string a length of rope across

6 the inside of the hangar, dividing the room inside the hangar in two. I

7 told him to keep the Mitnica Battalion in one half and the security in the

8 other.

9 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, you mentioned Filip Karaula. You were there for

10 the surrender. During that time, did you speak to this man named Karaula?

11 A. Yes. That's where I'd met him. After the surrender itself, he

12 was brought to the place where Mr. Pavkovic was, as well as Mr.

13 Sljivancanin. The person who brought him there said that this was the

14 commander of the Mitnica Battalion. He asked to be allowed to keep his

15 knife, to keep this small knife, which his father had given to him. After

16 this, Mr. Sljivancanin said it was okay for him to keep the knife and a

17 hand-held radio set, so that he could carry on his work as commander

18 overseeing the surrender of his own unit.

19 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, the day you went to Ovcara to the surrender, you

20 spoke to this man who introduced himself as someone who was in charge of

21 the security. Was this a military officer?

22 A. Yes. It was a military officer, quite short.

23 Q. What about his rank? Do you remember that?

24 A. I think he was a captain.

25 Q. Did that officer tell you anything about any problems concerning

Page 15413

1 the persons he was securing, at least at the time you were there?

2 A. No.

3 Q. On the day when the Mitnica Battalion surrendered, how long did

4 you stay in the area where they were put up? What would you think?

5 A. Ten or 15 minutes at the very most.

6 Q. What happens next, do you remember? What did you do next?

7 A. After that, I drove back to Negoslavci, to the office there.

8 Q. Did you report to anyone about this, specifically, did you inform

9 Sljivancanin about the task you'd been given?

10 A. I think I informed him that night, at some point, and he told me

11 that the next morning I should be there for the taking away of the Mitnica

12 Battalion from the hangar.

13 Q. What about the next day? I'm not talking about dates. I'm

14 talking about what happened. The surrender occurred on the 18th, which

15 means that your task was on the 19th. The next day, did you follow that

16 task, the task you'd been given by Mr. Sljivancanin?

17 A. The next day, I went to the hangar where I saw buses lined up,

18 buses that had arrived earlier on. Food was being distributed, and people

19 were boarding those buses.

20 Q. Can you tell what time of day it was when you got there, when you

21 got to this place where the members of the so-called Mitnica Battalion

22 were being loaded on to buses?

23 A. I think it was about 9.00 or 10.00 a.m.

24 Q. Did you see the officer you'd spoken to the previous evening at

25 Ovcara?

Page 15414

1 A. Yes. I saw him.

2 Q. Did you see anyone else you could identify, not by name perhaps

3 but by affiliation to any of the units there, somebody who was there?

4 A. I'm not sure about Besirevic but I know that the ICRC man was

5 there.

6 Q. You say you arrived there when food was being distributed and

7 persons were being loaded on to buses. How long did the whole thing take?

8 What do you think?

9 A. I can't remember whether I actually stayed there until the buses

10 left. Roughly speaking, I stayed there for about an hour or two.

11 Q. If I may just ask you a question, Mr. Karanfilov, when the Mitnica

12 Battalion were being surrendered or were surrendering, was anybody

13 compiling any lists of the people surrendering, for as long as you were

14 there?

15 A. No.

16 Q. On the 18th, when you got there, did you ask to see a list of the

17 Mitnica Battalion when you got there on the 18th?

18 A. You're talking about the day of the surrender?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. No.

21 Q. What about the next day, when people were boarding those buses?

22 Did you ask to see any sort of list at all or did you hear any references

23 being made to lists?

24 A. I know that as people were boarding the buses, somebody asked to

25 draw up a list, one for each of the buses, or perhaps a general list. Was

Page 15415

1 it the ICRC man or someone else, I really don't know.

2 Q. So was there a list?

3 A. I asked the security commander if a list had been compiled. He

4 said he did have one, a handwritten one. I asked him to have it typed up,

5 if possible, and forwarded to either the ICRC or to the commander

6 escorting the buses. I can't quite remember which.

7 Q. Do you know if he did this or not?

8 A. I don't. I don't know if he did this or not.

9 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, did you have any role to play at all in driving

10 those persons to Sremska Mitrovica on those buses?

11 A. No, no role at all. I didn't even know they were headed to

12 Sremska Mitrovica. I'd heard about Sremska Mitrovica as I was lingering

13 about the buses.

14 Q. This man you said appeared to be in charge of security, was he a

15 member of the Guards Brigade or a different unit? Do you know which unit?

16 A. I knew for sure he wasn't from the Guards Brigade.

17 Q. In addition to this one officer who you say was a captain, were

18 there any other officers there on the day the Mitnica Battalion

19 surrendered or the next day when they were taken to Sremska Mitrovica? Is

20 this something you remember?

21 A. On the day of their surrender, with the exception of him and the

22 representative of the Mitnica Battalion, there was no one else. The next

23 day, around the buses, there were people, officers, people wearing

24 uniforms. I don't know.

25 Q. You say you weren't sure you were there for the actual departure

Page 15416

1 of the buses. Where did you go?

2 A. I went to Negoslavci.

3 Q. When you left the hangar with those people who had been put up,

4 did you notice a crowd or any sort of commotion or vehicles anywhere near

5 the hangar, anything that would suggest that the environment was not a

6 perfectly peaceful one conditionally speaking?

7 A. No. Not a crowd of people really but there were a number of

8 vehicles parked there to one side.

9 Q. Can you specify the distance between the hangar and the vehicles?

10 A. Several hundred metres, perhaps.

11 Q. Did you speak to anyone from the ICRC again or anyone else during

12 the surrender or the next day, when the people were loaded on to those

13 buses?

14 A. I'm truly sorry, I don't understand your question.

15 Q. Did you have any other contact with those people whom you had seen

16 on the 19th, during the boarding of the buses?

17 A. On those days, you mean?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. No.

20 Q. What about the list of the Mitnica Battalion that you were shown

21 by the captain?

22 A. It was written by hand in a notebook.

23 Q. On the evening of the 18th, when the Mitnica Battalion

24 surrendered, you suggest you talked to that officer and to the commander

25 of the surrendering units. If I understand you correctly, you introduced

Page 15417

1 yourself by giving them your first and last names and your rank. Why did

2 you do that?

3 A. The reason I introduced myself was because I was a JNA officer, an

4 honourable officer. I thought this was an honourable thing to do

5 vis-a-vis a prisoner of war or anyone else for that matter. When you talk

6 to someone, you introduce yourself. You tell them your name, you tell

7 them your rank.

8 Q. Did you, at the time, perhaps, talk to that captain? Did you talk

9 in order to advise him where he could find you, just in case he needed

10 you?

11 A. No, but there was no need for anything like that.

12 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, the 19th, that's the day, I'm not using any more

13 dates for your sake. The buses left, people were boarding the buses, and

14 you went back to Negoslavci. What time of day could this possibly have

15 been?

16 A. 12.00 noon, 1.00 p.m., possibly 2.00, I don't know.

17 Q. What about your drive back to Negoslavci? Do you remember your

18 drive back to Negoslavci because of something in particular?

19 A. Yes. On my way back, in Negoslavci, I met Lieutenant-Colonel

20 Djukic, who was our second in command in terms of counter-intelligence

21 work. My second in command and Sljivancanin's first in command. And

22 that's why I remembered this.

23 Q. Can you explain what the circumstances were of this meeting? You

24 were someone in charge of the roadblocks, so did you ask him what he was

25 doing there?

Page 15418

1 A. As far as I can remember, Lieutenant-Colonel Djukic was standing

2 next to an armoured fighting vehicle. We spoke very briefly, just a

3 couple of minutes, and he told me on that occasion that he had -- he was

4 escorting Mr. Cyrus Vance.

5 Q. Did you see Mr. Vance in Negoslavci?

6 A. No, I did not.

7 Q. Do you know how long Mr. Djukic and the entourage stayed there?

8 A. We parted after a couple of minutes, but that would be

9 approximately -- I think they left quite soon after this conversation, but

10 I can't be more precise.

11 Q. On the 19th, did you have any other activities apart from the

12 regular daily activities?

13 A. I do recall that sometime -- it was in fact quite late, after

14 nightfall, I was given a task by Mr. Sljivancanin to prepare a room for

15 Mrs. Vesna Bosanac, and to receive Marin Vidic when he was brought in. So

16 this was the task that I was given.

17 Q. And were Marin Vidic and Vesna Bosanac in fact brought in?

18 A. I found a room in Negoslavci, through a nurse who worked at the

19 hospital, and upon my return, I found Marin in the office where we were.

20 Q. Do you know who had brought Marin Vidic and Vesna Bosanac to

21 Negoslavci?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you inquire?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. What was the building where you found Marin Vidic? Was that the

Page 15419

1 building where the headquarters of the security organ were located or in

2 another building?

3 A. That was the building which housed not only the headquarters of

4 the security organ but the headquarters of several other organs of the

5 Guards Brigade, and this is where they were -- where he had been brought

6 to, to the place where we were, to our office.

7 Q. Was the Guards Brigade command housed in the same building?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Where was it, then?

10 A. The command was located in another building, some 500 metres or

11 maybe a kilometre away from the place where we were, our house.

12 Q. When you saw Marin Vidic, was anyone else present there from the

13 security organ in the room?

14 A. At first, there was Zoran Momcilovic, Mladen Karan and myself in

15 the room.

16 Q. What was the reason for Marin Vidic to be brought to your place?

17 A. The reason was because an interview was to be conducted with him,

18 with Marin Vidic, Bili, in order to gather some more information that

19 would be important for the counter-intelligence work, for the

20 counter-intelligence service, or for the Guards Brigade command.

21 Q. Did you know who Marin Vidic, Bili, was at all?

22 A. As far as I can remember, he was the first man in Vukovar,

23 politically speaking, the number 1 political figure in Vukovar.

24 Q. And did you actually conduct this interview? Did you talk to him?

25 How did this proceed?

Page 15420

1 A. The interview did not take place right away, because Marin himself

2 said that he would like to eat something, he was hungry. He was given

3 food, drinks, and as a result, the atmosphere in the office became quite

4 relaxed.

5 Q. Do you remember any conversation with him, how -- what was his

6 attitude towards you, towards the army in general?

7 A. I think that he at one point started criticising the Croatian

8 leadership, the ZNG, and at one point he became very negative towards the

9 Croatian leadership.

10 Q. Do you recall if anyone else was present there? You mentioned

11 warrant officer Momcilovic, Major Karan, yourself. Was anyone else

12 present there during this conversation with Mr. Vidic?

13 A. Mr. Sljivancanin was there, and he actually conducted the

14 interview for a time.

15 Q. Do you know Mr. Tumanov?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know Mr. Aleksandar Vasiljevic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. On that evening, when you had this interview with Marin Vidic, did

20 you see Mr. Tumanov or Mr. Vasiljevic in this building?

21 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, Colonel Tumanov walked in a little

22 bit before General Vasiljevic did.

23 Q. Is there anything that makes you remember Colonel Tumanov's

24 appearance there?

25 A. Yes. I remember that because, after his arrival, Colonel Tumanov

Page 15421

1 shook hands with all of us present there, and when he extended his hand to

2 Marin Vidic, Bili, and when he was told this was Bili, he pulled his hand

3 back suddenly, said he didn't want to greet a murderer.

4 Q. Did you see if General Vasiljevic entered this room or not?

5 A. Yes. He went in after Tumanov.

6 Q. And how long did they stay there, I mean Mr. Vasiljevic and Mr.

7 Tumanov?

8 A. I can't recall, but I know that there was a conversation between

9 General Vasiljevic and Major Sljivancanin. This was a fairly heated

10 conversation. But I don't know how long they actually stayed there.

11 Q. Do you know the contents of the heated debate or did you not pay

12 any attention?

13 A. No, I don't know about it.

14 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, how did this interview with Mr. Vidic end? You

15 said you had given him some food, something to drink. Was there anything

16 of interest there?

17 A. After a while, after Mr. Sljivancanin had been talking to -- with

18 him for a certain period of time, Marin Vidic, Bili, was taken to the

19 office next door, where members of the criminal investigations unit

20 continued or, rather, started their interview with him and the other crime

21 investigation activities.

22 Q. Did Mr. Marin Vidic have any items in his possession that were

23 rather unusual?

24 A. Yes. He had his guitar with him.

25 Q. And was this guitar in fact put to some use while we are on the

Page 15422

1 topic of the guitar?

2 A. Yes. As we ate and drank, he played the guitar and he sang and I

3 have to say he was quite good.

4 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, you said that Mr. Marin Vidic was handed over to

5 the crime investigation team. What was the reason for that?

6 A. Well, these are the people who actually interview persons in order

7 to establish facts relating to crimes, to the commission of crimes. They

8 try to find evidence of crimes, secure the evidence and so on. So the

9 interview, in fact, continued, and the purpose was to establish the sites

10 where crimes were committed and where people had been killed in Vukovar

11 and to establish his role in those incidents.

12 Q. Did you have any other contacts with Vidic that night?

13 A. No.

14 Q. The interviews took place in the same building or in another

15 building? I mean, the interview conducted by the crime investigation

16 unit.

17 A. It was in the same building.

18 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, that evening, when Mr. Vidic was brought in, do

19 you remember if you were given any tasks for the next day and, if yes,

20 what tasks did you receive? Do you remember?

21 A. Yes. The task that was received from Mr. Sljivancanin, and as far

22 as I can remember, we were told that on the orders of General Vasiljevic,

23 we were to go to the shelter or, rather, Jastreb's command post the next

24 morning, to -- and to transfer all documents of any interest urgently to

25 Belgrade.

Page 15423

1 Q. Do you know who Jastreb is? Let us clarify that.

2 A. Jastreb was the commander of the National Guard Corps in Vukovar.

3 Q. Who, in the security organ, received this task from

4 Mr. Sljivancanin?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. Did any other officers in the security organ receive any other

7 tasks from him? If you know.

8 A. Well, as regards this task, the removal of the documents, I was

9 given this task, and warrant officer Momcilovic was also given this task

10 together with me. As far as I can remember, Karan was told that he should

11 accompany him the next day. I don't remember about anything else but that

12 would be more or less it.

13 Q. Did you hear where Karan was supposed to accompany

14 Mr. Sljivancanin the next day?

15 A. As far as I can recall, they were talking about the evacuation of

16 the hospital, and Karan was supposed to accompany him to prepare all the

17 security aspects of the evacuation.

18 Q. Do you remember if you had any information as to who was actually

19 in the Vukovar Hospital, apart from the sick people, of course?

20 A. We had been receiving information or reports that many ZNG members

21 had changed their clothes and pretending that they were actually patients

22 but that they still carried arms and that they were still in the hospital.

23 Q. Do you remember if you received any such information while Marin

24 Bilic [as interpreted] was in Negoslavci?

25 A. I think, yes, I remember that there were reports that the shelter

Page 15424

1 could be booby-trapped, so we did receive reports to that effect.

2 Q. You said to prepare for appropriate security. What does it mean?

3 A. In light of the data at our disposal, to select the -- to pick out

4 the persons who were in the hospital but who were not wounded or sick. In

5 other words, people who were in fact members of combat units. And to make

6 sure that the weapons held there would not be actually used.

7 Q. And was this in fact one of the tasks of the security organ, to

8 make sure that those security conditions were in place?

9 A. Absolutely, yes.

10 Q. After receiving those tasks, did you have any other tasks to carry

11 out that night or did you just receive your tasks for the next day?

12 A. No. We didn't have any other tasks for that day.

13 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

14 move on to another topic and perhaps this would be a proper time for us to

15 take our first break.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic. We'll resume at 10 past

17 4.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

21 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, let us please continue our conversation. Let's

23 pick up where we left off. On the evening of the 19th, you were told to

24 go to Jastreb's shelter to get whatever documents you found there as well

25 as a number of other things. Did you carry out that particular task and

Page 15425

1 can you please describe the progress of that task? How exactly did you

2 carry it out? Please tell us -- give us a steady account.

3 A. Yes. The following morning, Zoran Momcilovic and I were supposed

4 to go to that shelter but we didn't know where it was, so we tried to get

5 in touch with the forensic technicians who had been sent there to inspect

6 the premises the night before. We were told that the technicians had gone

7 on to the hospital with Marin Vidic, Bili. So the two of us went.

8 However, at the hospital gate, we were met by one of the officers. We

9 asked him about the forensic technicians and he told us that they had left

10 for the barracks.

11 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, can you specify the time? Was this in the morning

12 or in the afternoon that you were off to this assignment?

13 A. That was in the morning, at about 10.00.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Please continue.

15 A. After that, we returned to the barracks and we found the forensic

16 technicians there.

17 Q. Please pause there. Did you see buses within the barracks?

18 A. Yes. There were buses inside. The buses were full of people, and

19 around those buses there was a group of people abusing those on the buses

20 verbally.

21 Q. Can you remember how many buses there were?

22 A. A total of three or four. I can't say exactly.

23 Q. You say there was a group of people around the buses. How large

24 was that group?

25 A. Between 40 and 50 people, predominantly men.

Page 15426

1 Q. Were those men wearing uniform or civilian clothes?

2 A. It was a mixed group. There were different kinds of uniforms and

3 civilians there.

4 Q. Was anyone from that group armed?

5 A. Yes, people were armed in that group.

6 Q. Can you please describe the scene and tell us what was going on?

7 A. There was a cordon of military police set up around those buses.

8 So there was no contact between the buses and the group of between 40 and

9 50 people that I described. The only thing that was going on was a lot of

10 verbal abuse, taunts, curses, that's about it.

11 Q. Did you see any other vehicles there, apart from the buses, within

12 the barracks? Anywhere near the buses?

13 A. You mean military vehicles or civilian?

14 Q. Just around the buses.

15 A. No, none.

16 Q. I assume there should be a number of military vehicles in any

17 barracks, so I'm just talking about the area where the buses were. Did

18 you see any officers around the buses? If so, did you speak to any of

19 them?

20 A. I saw Lieutenant-Colonel Lukic. If I'm not mistaken, he was the

21 barracks commander. We talked for a couple of minutes about what was

22 going on. You see, he said, some minor problems, insults, jeers, that

23 sort of thing.

24 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, when you saw the buses, when you saw the people on

25 the buses, did you know where those people were from or did you perhaps

Page 15427

1 assume?

2 A. I don't know if I was right or not, but after that meeting with

3 Mr. Sljivancanin, my inference was that these were the people from the

4 hospital.

5 Q. What about Lieutenant-Colonel Lukic, the barracks commander, the

6 person you spoke to? Did he perhaps say that he could use some sort of

7 assistance or that he sought assistance from you? Did he complain that

8 the situation was far more serious than the way it appeared to you at the

9 time?

10 A. No. He didn't. Nor did I have the impression that he was in need

11 of something. He certainly didn't tell me. Quite the opposite, in fact.

12 The impression was he was keeping everything under control and there were

13 no exceptional problems that would require any measures being taken.

14 Q. You were now in the barracks to look for the forensic technicians

15 so you could be off to that shelter, right? How long did you stay there

16 for?

17 A. Hardly more than 15 or 20 minutes.

18 Q. All right. What happens next?

19 A. I first spoke to Lukic and then the forensic technicians drove by.

20 Rather, there was a driver in front of the car, and behind. I asked them

21 whether they had been successful in locating the shelter, and they said

22 yes. We followed them so that they could show us where the shelter was.

23 Q. Did you eventually reach the shelter and what did you do next?

24 A. In addition to the forensic men, there was someone else in the

25 vehicle, I don't remember who. They took us as far as the shelter,

Page 15428

1 stopped outside the shelter, dropped us there and left. They didn't

2 actually enter together with us. Momcilovic and I went as far as the

3 door. There was a jacket of sorts hanging there, no electricity. When we

4 entered the shelter, there was a huge plane bomb or a missile on the

5 table. We weren't really sure and we had been told that the place might

6 be booby-trapped in its entirety so we -- [Microphone not activated]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphones for the witness, please.

8 A. So we didn't use any torches or anything, just in case the place

9 was booby-trapped.

10 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, these electric torches that you refer to, what do

11 these have to do with any booby-traps that were inside the shelter?

12 A. Those can be electricity-activated, so several minutes after we

13 had left, an engineer arrived and went straight into the shelter. I don't

14 know exactly how much time had elapsed but he told us that we could just

15 go on and do our work. Momcilovic and I went inside and did what we had

16 to do. We got the things, we got the documents, the logs, the books, some

17 notebooks, some directories, anything that we found to be of interest. I

18 think we collected two or three radio sets, hand-held ones. I know we got

19 a video tape too, possibly two, a floppy disk. That was what we found

20 there that we could use that had not been burned down.

21 Q. Were all of these things still whole and intact or had some of it

22 burned down previously?

23 A. On the whole, one could notice that there had been a fire inside

24 this shelter, one that was started deliberately. Most of the equipment

25 and items in there had either burned down altogether or had at least

Page 15429

1 caught fire.

2 Q. So among the documents that you eventually picked up, were there

3 any documents that had been damaged by this fire to any extent?

4 A. There was this diary or a log, the cover of which was singed but

5 the actual diary, the pages inside, were still preserved.

6 Q. What about those radio sets? Were there any other radio sets

7 inside?

8 A. Yes. There were quite a number of them, military ones of foreign

9 make.

10 Q. Was there a particular reason for you to take these away, the

11 hand-held radio sets, I mean?

12 A. We weren't looking for JNA radio stations. We were on the other

13 hand looking for hand-held ones, the sort used more by the Ministry of the

14 Interior, so that we could get at their frequencies. We needed those

15 radio stations to establish the channels and the crystals used by those

16 radio sets.

17 Q. You mean the ZNG units, right, those used by the ZNG units?

18 A. Yes, indeed.

19 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, you say you were in the hospital between 10.00 and

20 11.00, you stayed for 10 or 15 minutes, no more. You went back to the

21 shelter. How long did it take you to do all of that, get the documents,

22 pack the things? How long did it take you?

23 A. Everything that could be of use to us was put in two or three

24 black bin bags, and now, as for how long it took to do all that, I don't

25 know. I know that we departed from the shelter to Belgrade while it was

Page 15430

1 still daylight, so 3.00, half past 3.00, 4.00 tops.

2 Q. Did you encounter anyone there at the shelter, any officers or

3 anyone else?

4 A. We met Mr. Sljivancanin near the shelter. On that occasion, we

5 told him that we had taken the items that in our estimate should have been

6 taken, and he told us that we should transport it to Belgrade urgently, by

7 air.

8 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, after you removed those hand sets and documents

9 from the shelter, was any equipment still in the shelter, any materiel?

10 Do you remember anything at all?

11 A. Quite a lot of equipment remained in the shelter, weapons,

12 ammunition, equipment, radio equipment that had been damaged by fire,

13 quite a lot of stuff remained there, but as I have already noted, this was

14 of no interest for us in the counter-intelligence.

15 Q. So you estimate that you completed your task sometime around half

16 past 3.00, around 4.00, while it was still daylight and then you met

17 Sljivancanin and did you report to him and told him that you had gathered

18 all that?

19 A. Yes. We told him that we had removed the items that in our

20 opinion should be taken away and he told us that we should go to Belgrade

21 urgently and hand these over to the security administration.

22 Q. And did you go to Belgrade?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Immediately after that?

25 A. I think that we stayed in Negoslavci for a short while. If I

Page 15431

1 remember correctly, warrant officer Momcilovic was supposed to take

2 something with him or leave something there, but after about ten minutes,

3 we left.

4 Q. And when did you get to Belgrade or, rather, how long would it

5 take to you get from Vukovar to Belgrade in those circumstances?

6 A. We arrived there at night. It may have been up to two and a half

7 to three hours of driving. That's how long it took you to drive to

8 Belgrade.

9 Q. At what time could it have been, in your estimate?

10 A. Around 7.00 p.m., 1900 hours.

11 Q. And what did you do with the documents and radio sets that you had

12 taken from the shelter?

13 A. The documents were handed over, as soon as we got to Belgrade, to

14 the duty operations officer in the security administration. So everything

15 that we had taken with us, we handed over to the operations team, and we

16 stayed there for maybe an hour. We had coffee with the people and there

17 were some informal conversation, and then the two of us, or, rather,

18 Momcilovic took me home and then he drove on to his own home.

19 Q. Did you go back to Vukovar at all after this?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Let me be more specific. Do you know when your brigade returned

22 from Vukovar?

23 A. We did not go back because the next day we were told there was no

24 need for us because the brigade would be coming back any way in a couple

25 of days. So there was no need for us to go back there.

Page 15432

1 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, do you remember -- you said that you arrived there

2 that night, but do you remember the next day, whether you were actually in

3 the brigade?

4 A. The next day, sometime in the afternoon, after taking some rest,

5 we left and we met warrant officer Grocic there, and he told us that the

6 brigade commander was there in Belgrade, so that we were in the brigade

7 that afternoon.

8 Q. Did you have any information as to why the brigade commander was

9 there on that day?

10 A. As far as I can recall, the brigade commander had had a meeting

11 with the federal secretary, as far as I can recall. That's what we were

12 told.

13 Q. And who was the federal secretary?

14 A. That was General Veljko Kadijevic.

15 Q. Can you tell us how many days after your arrival from Vukovar did

16 the brigade arrive there?

17 A. Four to five days. I don't know.

18 Q. In the two, three or -- to five days, did you go from Belgrade to

19 Vukovar? I'm talking only about those three, four or five days?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, there is a time line of the events that you talked

22 about but now let me address some other issues. How many times were you

23 in the location that we know was Ovcara, which was the location where the

24 members of the so-called Mitnica Battalion were placed during your stay in

25 Vukovar? So how many times were you there?

Page 15433

1 A. Two times. The first time was in the evening when we were given

2 the suggestion, and the next morning, when those prisoners were put on the

3 buses and taken out of the hangars and driven away in those buses.

4 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, you are an officer in the security organ. Did you

5 have any subordinates? Did you have anyone that you were a superior

6 officer to?

7 A. No, no. The security organ is structured in the following way.

8 You have the chief, two deputies, and the officer who is at the same

9 level, and that's regardless of the ranks.

10 Q. So who was your superior?

11 A. My superior was Mr. Sljivancanin.

12 Q. And who gave you tasks in the service?

13 A. It was Mr. Sljivancanin or, in fact, at that time, it was

14 Mr. Karan, but subject to the approval of Mr. Sljivancanin, if the task

15 pertained to the counter-intelligence work.

16 Q. Did you file any reports regarding your tasks and the completion

17 of those tasks and who did you actually report to?

18 A. I submitted my counter-intelligence reports orally to Mr. Karan,

19 who was then -- whose task it was to write the information I gave him

20 down.

21 Q. Do you know who those reports were submitted to? So you reported

22 to Mr. Karan and then who did Mr. Karan submit those reports to?

23 A. According to our chain of command, the reports could only be

24 submitted to the security chief of the cabinet of the federal secretary.

25 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, while you were in Vukovar, did you ever see or

Page 15434

1 hear of the security organ in the Guards Brigade receiving the reports

2 from the security organs of any other unit?

3 A. No, with the exception of the security administration. No, as far

4 as I can recall.

5 Q. You, as an officer in the security organ, do you have the right to

6 issue orders to members of units?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did anyone ever -- ever ask you -- I mean from the Guards Brigade,

9 officers from the Guards Brigade, to relay an order to anyone, an order

10 that would pertain to some other unit?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, does the name Vezmarovic mean anything to you?

13 A. Yes. That was the name that was put to me in Belgrade.

14 Q. When did you first hear this name, Vezmarovic?

15 A. I think it was in 2001, when I was making a statement to the

16 military investigating judge.

17 Q. Let us go back to the first day, your first contact with the

18 captain securing the Mitnica Battalion troops at the location that you

19 described to us. You told us what Mr. Sljivancanin had told you. How

20 would you describe the -- the words that you relayed to this commander?

21 What was that?

22 A. That would be a preventive activity by the security organ. Most

23 of the activities of our service are based on preventive action.

24 Preventive action and guidance. Exclusively, solely preventive action.

25 Q. Would this be an order?

Page 15435

1 A. No, it was not an order.

2 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, did you ever hear Mr. Sljivancanin issue an order

3 to anyone apart from his security organs or of him doing that?

4 A. No, never.

5 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, let me ask you: How many statements have you made

6 regarding these events in Vukovar?

7 A. Eight statements.

8 Q. Do you remember who you gave those statements to, those eight

9 statements?

10 A. The security administration of the Yugoslav People's Army, the

11 investigating judge from a military court, the investigators from the OTP,

12 the Novi Sad court investigating judge, the administration for the

13 struggle against organised crime, twice in court in Belgrade, in the

14 Ovcara case, and then once again I made the statement to the OTP

15 investigator.

16 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, on those occasions when you made those eight

17 statements, has anyone, any of the investigators, or any of the persons

18 who questioned you as a witness, shown you any document or anything

19 pertaining to the events from that period?

20 A. No. I was not -- I have not been shown any documents, any

21 reports, and I have never been shown any of the statements that I had made

22 on previous occasions.

23 Q. When was the first time that you saw any military documents or any

24 materials pertaining to this period?

25 A. The day before yesterday. That was the first time.

Page 15436

1 Q. When? How?

2 A. I saw those documents as I was preparing for my testimony in -- at

3 your place.

4 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

5 questions of this witness.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic.

7 Mr. Vasic.

8 Examination by Mr. Vasic:

9 Q. Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to everyone in the

10 courtroom. Good afternoon, Mr. Karanfilov.

11 I will ask you the same thing that my learned colleague, Mr.

12 Bulatovic, did, to make a pause between answering after I finish my

13 question so that everything is interpreted and everything is in the

14 transcript.

15 Mr. Karanfilov, you told my learned colleague that you drove to

16 Belgrade. Can you please tell us what vehicle did you use while you were

17 in Vukovar and what vehicle did you use to get back to Belgrade, as you

18 just described to us?

19 A. I went to Belgrade in a Puh with police marks, and with the

20 lights, the police lights.

21 Q. Thank you. But let me just clarify for everyone in the courtroom.

22 Puh, that would be an all terrain vehicle, not a sedan; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me -- I see here in your evidence

25 here and in the statements that you've given over all those years, that

Page 15437

1 you have trouble remembering the actual dates, but that you do remember

2 the events. Am I right?

3 A. I remember the events but not the dates.

4 Q. And in the period between 1998, when you said you gave your first

5 statement, you tried to remember as many things as possible relating to

6 the questions that you were asked about these events and in the

7 proceedings?

8 A. I don't know what you mean by making special effort. You do your

9 daily job, you get summoned to make a statement, you do it, and then you

10 go back to your job. So I don't know what you mean when you say that I

11 was trying to remember as many things as possible.

12 Q. You told my colleague that you saw some documents for the first

13 time when you came here. Can you please tell us what were those documents

14 that you saw in order to refresh your memory about those events, from the

15 surrender of the Mitnica Battalion onwards?

16 A. Well, first of all, I saw a lot of video footage, and the diaries

17 kept by various commands, some notes, some orders, and that would be it.

18 Q. When you looked through all those notes, did you find any

19 references to your own activities, about Marin Vidic, Bili, Jastreb's

20 headquarters or carrying those documents back to Belgrade? Did you find

21 any references to that?

22 A. Not sure I understand you.

23 Q. I'll be glad to repeat it for your benefit. You say you watched

24 certain video footage, you looked at diaries, at orders, as well as other

25 documents. Did you come across anything that would jog your memory about

Page 15438

1 any steps that you took at the time, anything you did about Mitnica, about

2 Marin Vidic, Bili, or about going to Jastreb's headquarters or perhaps

3 about taking those documents to Belgrade?

4 A. I saw a reference about Cyrus Vance. That's one thing that I saw

5 in the notes. And after so many years, this tells me that the chief of

6 security of the cabinet of the federal secretary was there which shed a

7 lot of new light on the incident, and this had already been forgotten.

8 Q. Thank you. You've provided a great many statements. It's very

9 difficult to keep track of everything. Therefore, let me ask the usher to

10 hand copies of your statements to you and to distribute these self-same

11 copies to the Trial Chamber and my learned friends from the OTP so that I

12 could start using these in my examination-in-chief, please.

13 I hope we all have those now. Thank you.

14 Mr. Karanfilov, if you look at page 1 of the report, your

15 statements, there is an overview of the actual content. As soon as

16 necessary, we shall be asking you to look at certain tabs.

17 Sir, do you agree with me that you gave your first statement back

18 in 1998, to the security organ? And that between that first statement and

19 the next statement you gave, there had elapsed three years, the statement

20 to the investigating magistrate of the Belgrade court? Would I be right

21 in saying that?

22 A. I'm not sure by being that specific about this. Be that as it

23 may, my first statement was indeed to the security administration back in

24 1998, if I'm not mistaken. And the next one occurred in 2002

25 [as interpreted].

Page 15439

1 Q. Correction for the transcript. The transcript says "2002" and the

2 witness said "2001."

3 I didn't mean to imply anything by being specific about the time

4 lag between the two statements. I'm just trying to suggest that you did

5 not provide any statements over that period.

6 After that, you gave a statement in July 2003 to the

7 administration for the struggle against organised crime, which is part of

8 the Serbian Ministry of the Interior; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This statement actually preceded the one you provided in November

11 2003 to the investigating magistrate --

12 MR. MOORE: I don't mean to interrupt. I see my learned friend

13 refers to July 2003. I don't know if that's intentionally -- or not

14 intentional, but an error. I notice his statement says March 2003 and

15 certainly March 2003 is the date that we have in our bundle.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I'm not sure which document my learned

17 friend has in mind when he describes it as being dated March 2003. As for

18 the statement to the Ministry of the Interior, the date is the 18th of

19 July 2003. The statement to the investigating magistrate of the Novi Sad

20 district court is dated the 5th of November, 2003. If that's of any

21 assistance to my learned friend.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, there are some audio-recorded interviews

23 in March 2003. Are you passing those over?

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe these are the

25 audiotapes of his statement to OTP investigators. I wasn't going to

Page 15440

1 invoke those right now, but I think that is dated March 2003, and not the

2 statement provided to the military court or indeed the special court.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the problem was you introduced all of this

4 having got a statement in 2001. You then said after that you gave a

5 statement in July 2003. I don't see any reference anywhere to July 2003

6 in the index. There are the four audiotapes to the OTP in March 2003, and

7 then we have the Belgrade military court on the 5th of November 2003. Is

8 there some other statement that you haven't included in this bundle?

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. This

10 statement is not included in the bundle because we do not have a

11 translation. It's just about the exact sequence. That statement preceded

12 the statement to the investigating magistrate of the Novi Sad district

13 court on the 5th of November 2003.

14 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, can you please now go to tab 3, which is the

15 statement that you provided to the investigating magistrate of the Novi

16 Sad district court on the 5th of November, 2003. The ID number is

17 30465403. The ID number is 03465403. Tab 3.

18 Have you got that, Mr. Karanfilov? You gave the statement that is

19 recorded here. Is this your signature, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I would like to talk about something that is at page 3 of the

22 B/C/S. It's the first paragraph. I'll read it out and can you please

23 follow just to make sure that that is indeed what the statement says.

24 "Once I had conveyed these orders, I went back to the command. On

25 the following day -- on the morning of the following day, I received a

Page 15441

1 task of going to the Vukovar barracks and bringing back Marin Vidic, Bili,

2 and Vesna Bosanac. When I reached the barracks, I saw several buses being

3 secured by the army. There were people on those buses but I didn't know

4 who they were. I'm not certain, but I think that I saw quite many

5 civilians there and Territorial Defence members within the barracks

6 compound who were voicing their displeasure. They abused and insulted

7 those on the buses.

8 "I stayed there for about 15 minutes and I did not see the

9 situation as particularly dramatic. I think we relate this to Lukic who

10 was the barracks commander, and I also seem to remember that we informed

11 Sljivancanin upon our return to Negoslavci with Marin Vidic and Vesna

12 Bosanac. On that day, we interviewed Marin Vidic. I know that several

13 hours later, General Vasiljevic too arrived. I can't remember exactly

14 when the questioning was completed, but it was at some point that evening.

15 And I don't believe that I went anywhere else that late afternoon or that

16 evening."

17 Sir, is this what you said to the investigating magistrate?

18 A. That's what it says, isn't it?

19 Q. Do you remember saying anything along these lines on the 1st of

20 October 2002, to the investigating magistrate of the Belgrade military

21 court?

22 A. Please, it is quite obvious that these incidents are mentioned in

23 all the statements, and I mention all the individual incidents in all of

24 my statements. I hadn't set eyes on a single document over all these

25 years, so it is only logical, if you ask me, that events should be

Page 15442

1 mis-timed, that two incidents should be erroneously referred to as

2 happening on the same day, whereas that was in fact not the case. The

3 simple truth of the matter is I am discussing the same events all the

4 time.

5 Q. The same events in the same way. Are you suggesting these things

6 happened when you left to get Marin Vidic, Bili, and Vesna Bosanac and

7 collect them from the barracks, right?

8 A. The buses were inside the barracks. That appears to suggest that

9 the interview with Marin Vidic, Bili, had occurred on the previous day.

10 That's why I'm telling you it's been 15 years; it had been 12 at the time

11 I gave that first statement. All this about the various meetings and the

12 various time lines, I referred to all of that in all of my statements. I

13 remember what happened. I remember the actual incidents, but not

14 necessarily their dates.

15 Q. I do agree with that. But will you agree with me, when I say,

16 that in all these statements you gave, when talking about Marin Vidic,

17 Bili, being taken from Vukovar to Negoslavci, you say that you saw buses

18 inside the barracks compound, four or five buses and the group of people

19 there? Do you agree that you said that?

20 A. That's what it says. It is obvious that I was looking for the

21 forensic technicians that Marin Vidic, Bili, had been with on that day,

22 and the shelter.

23 Q. I agree. Yet I have to ask you this: In your testimony before

24 the special court in Belgrade, on the 23rd of November, 2004, did you

25 again say that you had seen the buses inside the barracks compound when

Page 15443

1 you arrived to get Marin Vidic, Bili? Would you agree with me?

2 A. Yes. That's what it says.

3 Q. Thank you. Would you then agree with me that you informed of this

4 particular situation within the barracks compound Major Lukic who was then

5 the barracks commander, as well as Major Sljivancanin, once you were back

6 in Negoslavci?

7 A. You mean about the buses, right?

8 Q. Yes. That's what I mean.

9 A. I spoke to Mr. Lukic about that. I told him about that. It was a

10 brief exchange. As for Mr. Sljivancanin, I believe I informed him when we

11 met just before I was off to Belgrade.

12 Q. A daytime meeting, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You tell us about who spoke to Marin Vidic, Bili. Was someone

15 interviewing Vesna Bosanac in Negoslavci at the same time after you had

16 brought them there?

17 A. I think it was Mr. Sljivancanin interviewing her.

18 Q. Do you perhaps remember the specific room in which he interviewed

19 Vesna Bosanac?

20 A. I think it was one of the rooms at the command. I'm not sure.

21 Q. Do you remember when and if Mr. Sljivancanin returned to that

22 house where you were too, and after that, was he involved in the interview

23 with Marin Vidic, Bili?

24 A. As I said, he showed up. Marin was already in our office. And

25 sometime later, Major Sljivancanin too turned up. I'm not sure how long

Page 15444

1 that took.

2 Q. Did you go through the counter-intelligence procedure with Marin

3 Vidic in light of the fact that he was a member of the Vukovar Defence

4 Crisis Staff?

5 A. Several hours were spent with Marin Vidic, Bili, for the purpose

6 of adaptation. I know that Mladen Karan interviewed him as an expert and

7 then Major Sljivancanin did too, but not in order to gain any

8 counter-intelligence information, as you seem to be suggesting in your

9 question.

10 Q. And did you know what they were talking about?

11 A. As far as I can remember, the topic, the main topic, was his

12 political views and the causes for the conflict, his own personal views

13 and attitude. Marin Vidic, Bili, was not a person -- he did not hold the

14 kind of a post that would enable him to have any information important for

15 the counter-intelligence work, because he was a politician.

16 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether you were in the Vukovar

17 Hospital, and if yes, when, and how long did you spend there?

18 A. I was at the hospital gate. That was on the day when we tried to

19 get in touch with the forensic technicians and Bili.

20 Q. Do you remember the time of the day?

21 A. It was in the morning.

22 Q. Does that mean that if a witness were to give evidence that it was

23 at 6.00 a.m., then it wouldn't be true?

24 A. I don't know what a witness might or might not say. I was there

25 at around 9, 10, 10, I don't know, that was the approximate time period.

Page 15445

1 Q. Thank you. Let us go back to the barracks and the events that you

2 witnessed there, and that you reported about, both to Lukic and to

3 Sljivancanin. In your opinion, were those events alarming in nature, in

4 security terms?

5 A. No. I don't know what would be your definition of "alarming in

6 security terms."

7 Q. In your opinion, in fact, did you inform these people about the

8 events because the situation was alarming, in terms of the security of the

9 people within the barracks?

10 A. I don't know where you get the information about the alarming

11 situation from. As far as I was able to see, the buses were secure. A

12 group of maybe 40 to 50 people were not right next to the buses. They

13 were away from the buses, and they did not go beyond verbal abuse.

14 Furthermore, as I already stated, I spoke to Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic had

15 already seen that. He already had this information at his disposal. I

16 agree that it was an unpleasant picture, an unusual one, but it was not

17 alarming.

18 Q. Thank you. This is what you have stated before. I merely wanted

19 to ask you about your opinion at the time when you were making this

20 report. Now I would like you to tell us something about the notebook that

21 you mentioned here, the notebook that you saw in the possession of this

22 officer that was in charge of the security of the Mitnica group. Did you

23 see what kind of notes he made there, or did you just see him carry this

24 notebook, hold it in his hands?

25 A. You're talking about the day when these people were boarded --

Page 15446

1 boarded the buses?

2 Q. Yes. I'm talking about the day when the Mitnica group boarded the

3 buses and left for Sremska Mitrovica?

4 A. No. I did not hold the notebook in my hands. I was just told by

5 him about the notes that he took and wrote down in this notebook.

6 Q. Does the name Lieutenant-Colonel Milorad Vojinovic mean anything

7 to you and did it mean anything to you at that time?

8 A. No, not at the time, not now either. I am not familiar with that

9 name at all.

10 Q. Did you hear this name in relation to the trial here in The Hague

11 or the trials in Belgrade?

12 A. Yes. That's why I say I did not know of that day -- name at the

13 time, and now, again, although I did hear it at the trials, now it doesn't

14 mean anything to me either.

15 Q. When this Mitnica group left the Ovcara hangar to go to Sremska

16 Mitrovica, did you see Lieutenant-Colonel Vojinovic there? Do you recall?

17 A. I don't remember having seen the Lieutenant-Colonel at any time

18 before that, after that, ever.

19 Q. And Drago Vukosavljevic, does that name mean anything to you?

20 A. The same answer. So the name was not known to me. It was

21 mentioned in the proceedings, but it still doesn't mean anything to me.

22 Q. Thank you. In the period that we are now talking about, the fall

23 of 1991, if you remember, can you please tell us whether you went to Sid

24 and on what business, if yes?

25 A. No. I went to Sid only once, in 2002, with a high-ranking

Page 15447

1 official, but that was the first time. I had never gone there before

2 that.

3 Q. Thank you. Please tell me: Do you remember, did Colonel Tumanov

4 and General Vasiljevic, did they address Marin Vidic, and if yes, what did

5 they talk about?

6 A. I don't think so, with the exception of the incident, the brief

7 incident, when Tumanov withdrew his hand. As far as I can remember, they

8 didn't actually talk.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me when you got to the barracks,

10 where you saw the buses, who was with you at the time?

11 A. You mean in the vehicle?

12 Q. In the barracks.

13 A. It was Zoran Momcilovic.

14 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me whether there was any security

15 or any check-point at the entrance to the barracks?

16 A. Yes, there was the reception booth and a swing gate.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us, if you remember, at the time

18 when you were questioned about taking Marin Vidic to Negoslavci, whether

19 that was at the same -- on the same day when the session of the government

20 was held at Velepromet?

21 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

23 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as a matter of

24 principle, Mr. Vasic said, "When you were questioned," and he didn't

25 specify the occasion. The witness was -- gave eight statements and I

Page 15448

1 think he should identify the occasion when he said that. I think that

2 should be done in fairness towards this witness.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic?

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honour. I will

5 identify the statement.

6 Q. When you gave your statement to the military court investigating

7 judge, that was the 1st of October, page 4. The investigating judge of

8 the Novi Sad military court, Novi Sad district court, that would be page

9 3. Do you remember saying that?

10 A. As far as I was able to understand the thrust of your question,

11 the question is whether I had stated that I had heard about any session

12 being held.

13 Q. At the time when you were taking Marin Vidic and Vesna Bosanac to

14 Negoslavci.

15 A. Let me repeat: In light of the time that has elapsed since the

16 events, the events that I mention are described correctly in all my

17 statements. The problem lies with the time line. This is what I can't

18 recall. If you ask me whether on the day when I saw the buses, when I was

19 there, somebody did mention something about a session.

20 Q. Now I would like you to go to tab 3. That's the statement you

21 gave to the investigating judge of the district court in Novi Sad. The

22 number is 03 -- 03465403. Please look at the last sentence on this page.

23 Let me read it out to you slowly.

24 A. What page?

25 Q. Page 3.

Page 15449

1 A. Fine.

2 Q. "What I know about any alleged session of the civilian authorities

3 is that at that time --"

4 A. I'm sorry. Tab 3?

5 Q. Tab 3, that's the statement you gave to the investigating judge of

6 the Novi Sad district court, dated 5 November 2003.

7 A. Page 3?

8 Q. Page 3. And at the end of the page, you say -- the second part of

9 the last paragraph.

10 "What I know about an alleged session of the civilian authorities

11 is that at that time, when we took over the Mitnica battalion that had

12 been captured, I heard that a session was being held just across the road

13 from the barracks and that it was attended by Arkan. I didn't hear about

14 any conclusions reached at that session or meeting. Let me be more

15 specific. This session that I heard of took place on the day when the

16 Mitnica Battalion surrendered, not on that day when the Mitnica Battalion

17 surrendered, but the next day, when they boarded the buses, and on the day

18 when I was tasked with bringing Marin Vidic and Vesna Bosanac."

19 Do you agree with me that this is what you stated?

20 A. That's what it says here.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, Mr. Vasic?

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes. I would like us to

24 take our break now. This is a convenient time. I don't have a lot.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We resume at 10 minutes to.

Page 15450

1 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'm nearing

5 the end of my cross-examination.

6 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, back in November 1991, did you know that on the

7 19th of November, in the evening hours, from the security administration

8 in the counter-intelligence group of the 1st Military District, two

9 officer teams had arrived to conduct a triage and dispatch those suspected

10 of having committed crimes to Sremska Mitrovica?

11 A. No. I didn't know that, nor would I have been expected to know a

12 thing like that given my rank and my post at the time.

13 Q. Thank you. Just another question. Do you know if any suspects

14 detained during the actual combat were sent to Sid? Is this something

15 that you might have been familiar with at the time?

16 A. No, it isn't.

17 Q. Just to be fair, no?

18 A. No. No, it was above my head.

19 Q. Now it's crystal clear. Thank you.

20 Mr. Karanfilov, I have no further questions for you and I thank

21 you for all your answers.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. This

23 concludes my cross-examination.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

25 Mr. Borovic.

Page 15451

1 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. No

2 questions.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

4 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Moore:

6 Q. Mr. Karanfilov, why didn't you tell the court in your evidence in

7 chief that you had informed Mr. Sljivancanin of what you saw at the

8 barracks, the bad behaviour at the barracks? Why didn't you tell them?

9 A. I don't think I was asked, was I?

10 Q. But you gave an account of what you saw and the fact that you'd

11 spoken to Sljivancanin; isn't that right?

12 A. My apologies. Could you please repeat that?

13 Q. Yes. You had told the Bench, as it's called, Their Honours, that

14 you had seen the behaviour at the barracks. Do you remember saying that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And I think it's right to say that you'd also told them that you

17 saw Sljivancanin on the 20th as well, afterwards; isn't that right?

18 A. Yes, I did say that.

19 Q. I'm just asking why it is you didn't mention the fact, as indeed

20 you have done now, that you told Sljivancanin about the trouble at the

21 barracks. Didn't you think that was an important piece of evidence to

22 tell the Bench?

23 A. I didn't take that to be a major problem. I didn't believe that

24 to be a source of major trouble at the barracks at the time but I do

25 remember that. I did say on numerous occasions that I had informed

Page 15452

1 Mr. Sljivancanin about that, and if I'm not entirely mistaken, I did

2 answer a question by one of the counsel about that a while ago.

3 Q. Yes, you did. But I'm just asking you why it is, if you're here

4 to assist the Court, as an honest and true man, why you didn't tell them

5 that when you spoke to Sljivancanin I told him about the trouble at the

6 barracks. And I'm merely asking, was that just an oversight or was it

7 deliberate?

8 A. It certainly wasn't deliberate. I think what I was doing was

9 focusing on the question regarding me leaving the shelter. So believe me,

10 there was no particular intention on my part.

11 Q. You would agree, wouldn't you, that in any evacuation, that if

12 there is behaviour seen in the presence of that evacuation, behaviour that

13 would suggest concern, behaviour that might suggest hostility, that that

14 is an element that should be communicated to someone in authority? Would

15 you agree with that?

16 A. Again, what I have to say is this: The situation at the barracks

17 was not alarming, just as counsel suggested a while ago, nor did I have

18 the impression that this was in any way out of control. On the other

19 hand, the barracks commander was present. The commander was there. I

20 talked to him and I got the impression and realised that he was keeping

21 everything under control.

22 Q. But do you remember the briefing of the 19th of November with

23 Mr. Sljivancanin? Do you remember there was normally a security organ

24 briefing after the command briefing? I think that's right, as a general

25 rule, isn't it?

Page 15453

1 A. Not necessarily in the security organ. Any intelligence related

2 observation on what was going on on the ground concerning organisations or

3 individuals or anything that our intelligence work yielded, could have

4 been reported to Karan, in Sljivancanin's absence, for example.

5 Therefore, meetings were not held on a daily basis.

6 Q. Was there a meeting held on the evening of the 19th of November, a

7 meeting where Mr. Sljivancanin briefed other members of the security

8 organ?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what members of the security organ were present at the

11 briefing of the evening of the 19th?

12 A. So we are talking about the meeting of the evening that Marin

13 Vidic was there. This meeting, this brief meeting was attended by Karan,

14 Momcilovic, and I.

15 Q. What would you say if in actual fact there had been evidence given

16 that there was a briefing on the evening of the 19th for all the members

17 of the security organ, including Vukasinovic?

18 A. Not that I remember. It is possible that it's just me not being

19 able to remember Vukasinovic.

20 Q. Well, you were aware, weren't you, that Vukasinovic was

21 responsible, was he not, for putting people on the bus at the hospital?

22 Weren't you aware of that fact?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. So you don't remember a briefing on the night of the 19th where

25 actually Vukasinovic was the first person to be briefed and then had to

Page 15454

1 leave and other tasks were given out? Are you saying you weren't present

2 at that particular briefing?

3 A. What I'm saying is I remember the three of us being there the day

4 the meeting was held. Did Vukasinovic attend another meeting before that

5 one is not something that I can say. Did he have an assignment likewise,

6 I can't say and I don't remember.

7 Q. So as far as you're concerned, you do not remember attending a

8 briefing on the 19th, a briefing given by Mr. Sljivancanin, to members of

9 the security organ, including Vukasinovic? Is that what your evidence is?

10 A. What I'm saying is I don't remember Vukasinovic being there. I

11 was in and out of the meeting, perhaps, so it's certainly possible. But

12 the only persons I remember as being there are the three that I've

13 mentioned.

14 Q. The tasks given on the 19th, what were those tasks, in very

15 shortened form? Can you just tell us, please? I presume these tasks were

16 the following day for the 20th. So what were the tasks?

17 A. What I remember is as follows: Momcilovic's task and mine was to

18 go get any documents that were related in intelligence terms and take it

19 straight to Belgrade. I remember that Karan was to leave with

20 Mr. Vukasinovic the following morning. I also remember mention being made

21 of the hospital evacuation. It was also said that security measures

22 should be taken for the evacuation and during the actual evacuation.

23 Q. Can we agree that there was a briefing in relation to the

24 evacuation of the hospital? Is that correct?

25 A. Evacuation was one of the things discussed at that meeting.

Page 15455

1 Q. So if we just deal with that topic, the briefing on the 19th, one

2 of the topics was the evacuation; is that correct or not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what role did you play in the evacuation?

5 A. None.

6 Q. What role did Mr. Karan play in the evacuation?

7 A. Apart from the fact that he was to leave the next day with

8 Mr. Sljivancanin, there was nothing else that I knew of.

9 Q. But what were they to do? They may well leave, but what was their

10 function, what was their task, the next day?

11 A. I know nothing about the task except for what I specified. If I

12 may, the security organ receives assignments from its superior, but only

13 assignments within its actual remit and authority. This is very

14 specifically defined in the work of security officers. No security organ

15 can know anything about the assignments of any other security organ unless

16 the chief decides otherwise, but not the direct superior but, rather, the

17 second in command.

18 Q. But the situation is this: There was a briefing by the chief of

19 the security organ on the 19th. We've had evidence in relation to that.

20 You were present at that briefing. And might I be so bold as to suggest

21 that one of the purposes of briefing is to let everybody know what their

22 individual tasks are? And I'm asking you what were the tasks assigned to

23 Karan, and, of course, Mr. Sljivancanin? What were the words? What were

24 they to do?

25 A. Sljivancanin was the one handing out tasks, with the exception of

Page 15456

1 the task to set up a security regime for the evacuation, but that's all I

2 know about.

3 Q. Well, I will almost -- I have almost finished this topic. I may

4 come back to it. So you were present at the briefing. What I want to

5 know is quite simply this: There was talk about the evacuation of the

6 hospital; is that right?

7 A. Among other things, yes.

8 Q. I'm just talking about the evacuation of the hospital. What were

9 the component parts for the evacuation of the hospital? Who was

10 responsible for who? Who was coordinating with whom?

11 A. I don't know, nor was anything said about that in my presence,

12 except I remember that Karan was to go with Sljivancanin to the hospital

13 the next morning to set up security for the evacuation. That's all I knew

14 about.

15 Q. Are you aware or have you been told by Mr. Bulatovic, who I think

16 has proofed you, about the possibility of the existence of lists being

17 compiled by the security organ prior to the hospital evacuation?

18 A. No.

19 Q. As far as you're aware, is it right to say that the security organ

20 was attempting to find out the names of individuals whom they held

21 responsible for what I will call "the situation in Vukovar," namely, the

22 defenders, the people who were fighting against the JNA?

23 A. We didn't see them as defenders. In practical terms, yes.

24 Counter-intelligence can yield names, identities and persons who are

25 potential perpetrators of crimes or criminal offences against any soldier,

Page 15457

1 civilians or the JNA itself and so on and so forth.

2 Q. So when you say quite simply that you didn't see them as

3 defenders, from your perception, and I don't criticise it in any way, from

4 your perception, the people who were fighting against you were generically

5 criminals, would that be right?

6 A. Please, sir. Back in 1991, there was the Socialist Federative

7 Republic of Yugoslavia. There was the JNA. Everything that was outside

8 the constitution of the SFRY was a form of rebellion, certainly a criminal

9 offence. The JNA, under the constitution, was duty-bound to protect the

10 constitutional order of the SFRY.

11 Q. But I'm asking you, and thank you for that, with regard to the

12 perception in 1991, the people that you were looking for, you considered

13 to be potential perpetrators of crimes and committers of criminal

14 offences. That is right, isn't it?

15 A. A perpetrator of a criminal offence or a rebel in purely legal

16 terms.

17 Q. We have heard the word "terrorist" in this Court. Would you

18 accept that they were often considered to be terrorists, analogous to

19 terrorists?

20 A. You could put it that way, as a blanket term, terrorist, an

21 insurgent.

22 Q. Thank you. And isn't it right that lists were being compiled,

23 names were being collected, of these people? Isn't that correct?

24 A. I don't know about that.

25 Q. Well, we have seen evidence coming in through the SSNO and the

Page 15458

1 security administration, security organ, of various names. I will take

2 them -- you to those names tomorrow if I have to, but weren't you aware,

3 as a member of the security organ in your various briefings, that that's

4 the sort of person that you were looking for?

5 A. No. My only responsibility was in Negoslavci, with the village of

6 Berak included.

7 Q. But it's right to say you were a member, an officer, in the

8 security organ and there were briefings almost every day? Is that not

9 correct?

10 A. Yes. I was an officer in the security organ. Meetings did not

11 take place every day; it depended on the situation. Again, a security

12 organ is informed of elements that are essential to the implementation of

13 its task, but not necessarily everything. The chief is the person who

14 knows the entire situation, who knows what the counter-intelligence

15 assessment is or any information trickling down from the higher spheres.

16 Q. Well, you're aware that we've had evidence from Mr. Sljivancanin

17 and also others from the security organ. Let us take a ten-day period.

18 It's difficult to approximate, I know. If one was talking about a ten-day

19 period in October-November, how often would you have briefings from the

20 security organ or the commander of the security organ?

21 A. First and foremost, I don't know what Mr. Sljivancanin said.

22 Secondly, I can't be specific because this was a wartime situation. It

23 was changing on an hourly basis. Meetings were held whenever the

24 situation allowed. Any intelligence reports on the security situation

25 that were important to the brigade command were dispatched urgently, no

Page 15459

1 meetings.

2 Q. Well, may I finish this topic on the following question? Would it

3 be right to say or would you agree with me that there were regular

4 meetings with the security organ officers in Vukovar in October and

5 November?

6 A. If regular means daily, then the answer is no. It very much

7 depended on the situation at hand. You could have had two meetings in two

8 days and you could have had a single meeting no more over a ten-day

9 period.

10 Q. Thank you very much. May I move to the 18th of November? Because

11 you have difficulty with dates, that's the Mitnica evacuation, all right?

12 A. We are talking about the surrender of the Mitnica Battalion,

13 right?

14 Q. Yes, the Mitnica unit. Why do you call it a battalion?

15 A. We are talking about the Mitnica Battalion and you're asking me

16 why I'm calling it a battalion?

17 Q. Yes, I am.

18 A. Because that's how it was introduced to us, and it was the

19 battalion type of unit, and Filip Karaula, establishment-wise, was a

20 battalion commander.

21 Q. So would it be right to say that attributing to them the

22 term "battalion" ensured that they were what I will call soldiers who have

23 laid down their arms and should be dealt with appropriately under the

24 Geneva Convention?

25 A. All those from the Mitnica Battalion who surrendered were to be

Page 15460

1 and indeed were treated in keeping with all the regulations.

2 Q. And isn't it right that there was a distinction drawn between what

3 I will call the Mitnica or you call the Mitnica Battalion and a group of

4 individuals, fighters, who had retreated to the hospital and had to be

5 identified? Would you accept that?

6 A. The unit that surrendered, in terms of establishment, belonged to

7 the ZNG. And the treatment that they received was in compliance with all

8 the rules and regulations. All those who fled laid down their arms,

9 discarded their weapons and disguised themselves, and yet had committed

10 crimes, were in for a different treatment, simply because they were

11 potential terrorists. There was a possibility that they were terrorists.

12 When making an assessment in terms of counter-intelligence work, you

13 cannot be certain these members of that unit had committed crimes or not.

14 They could still have been carrying weapons and were still potential

15 perpetrators of crimes. You can't rely on the fact that when caught or

16 captured, a person like that would stay calm and not use a hand grenade or

17 his weapon instead. A true commander exercises command and soldiers are

18 the ones carrying out his orders.

19 Q. What do you mean by the phrase, "a person like that"?

20 A. I meant the persons that you specified, who had disguised

21 themselves and gone on to the hospital, instead of surrendering with their

22 own battalion.

23 Q. The 18th, the Mitnica Battalion, it's right that there was or what

24 I will call negotiations, surrender negotiations, at Mitnica which then

25 resulted in them being taken to Ovcara; that is right, isn't it?

Page 15461

1 A. Following their surrender, they were taken to that hangar. If the

2 hangar is at Ovcara, well, yes, in that case, they too were taken to

3 Ovcara.

4 Q. Well, you know perfectly well that hangar is at Ovcara. Why do

5 you play games and pretend that you don't know that?

6 A. Please, sir, I'm trying to be as specific as I possibly can.

7 Q. Well, you know perfectly well that the Mitnica Battalion was taken

8 to Ovcara. You know that because you've been asked how many times have

9 you been to Ovcara and you say I've only been twice on the 18th and 19th.

10 So you know it's Ovcara. Isn't that right?

11 A. Please, sir. When I'm talking from the point of view of a captain

12 back in 1991, I'm telling you at the time I didn't know that the hangar

13 was at Ovcara. If we are talking about the point in time when I gave all

14 those statements, or indeed now, in that case, yes, we do agree. I do now

15 know that it was at Ovcara.

16 Q. And you went to Ovcara. You haven't told us how you got there on

17 the 18th. How did you get there?

18 A. I don't remember. I know somebody drove me there in a vehicle.

19 Q. Well, who is the person who drove you?

20 A. I don't remember. At any rate, it was someone who was aware of

21 the setup and the hangar there.

22 Q. So the person who drove you, he was the person who knew where he

23 was going; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You didn't know where you were going? For you, it was a magical

Page 15462

1 mystery tour, something like that, wasn't it?

2 A. No. I was supposed to go to the facility where the Mitnica

3 Battalion had been put up, and to tell them about this suggestion

4 concerning prevention. I personally didn't know how to drive there, how

5 to get there in a car, so somebody who knew the way gave me a lift.

6 Q. But the situation that you had was that you were to go back on the

7 19th, weren't you?

8 A. The next day, I went again, yes.

9 Q. Yes. But what I'm suggesting to you is that you knew on the 18th

10 that you would have to return on the 19th, to make sure that they were

11 taken out of the hangar, that the Geneva Convention had been properly

12 adhered to, and they were then dispatched, all of them, to an appropriate

13 destination. Isn't that right?

14 A. The evening of the 18th, I was given the task by Mr. Sljivancanin

15 to monitor the transport of the Mitnica Battalion.

16 Q. I'm suggesting to you that you went to Mitnica -- that you went to

17 Ovcara where the Mitnica Battalion was located, that you were there, not

18 in the evening, but you were there in the afternoon.

19 A. Which day?

20 Q. That is the 18th of November. I'm terribly sorry, I don't know

21 what day it was.

22 A. We are talking about the day when the negotiations took place and

23 the surrender of the Mitnica Battalion. Just before nightfall that day, I

24 went to the hangar, and 20 minutes, possibly half an hour later, I drove

25 back to Negoslavci.

Page 15463

1 Q. So if I suggest to you, because we've got various diaries here

2 with entries, if I suggest to you that here on the 18th of November, at

3 around about 4.00, or 1600 hours in military terms, you were at the Ovcara

4 hangar, would you agree with that as being a fair approximation?

5 A. Nightfall was at about 1630, 1700 hours, which means that it was

6 dark by the time I reached the hangar where the Mitnica Battalion had been

7 put up.

8 Q. No. I'm suggesting to you that you arrived at that hangar before

9 it got dark. I'm not suggesting it was brilliant light, but I'm

10 suggesting to you around about 4.00 you were at the Ovcara --

11 A. [No interpretation]

12 Q. I didn't hear your answer. I'm sorry.

13 A. I'm saying dusk. Yes, dusk.

14 Q. Dusk an interesting concept. Would you accept the time of 4.00 or

15 4.30, something like that? Would that be fair?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, can we just deal then with the procedure that you had to

18 adopt when you got there? Your task, your function, was to ensure that

19 the Mitnica Battalion was properly treated and there should be no abuses.

20 Would you accept that as a general proposition?

21 A. My task was to convey the suggestion that both parties should be

22 refrained from causing any problems that might escalate into a clash, that

23 they should both adhere to the rules that neither side should taunt the

24 other to ensure a smooth progress.

25 Q. Well, the Mitnica Battalion weren't armed, the JNA soldiers were

Page 15464

1 armed. While taunts may well apply, the reality is you were there to

2 ensure that there was no malpractice or abuse of those soldiers under the

3 JNA control. That is correct, isn't it?

4 A. Please, sir. We couldn't have been certain at the time that the

5 Mitnica Battalion had no intention of breaking out of the hangar, of

6 escaping, given the numerical strength on both sides. No one can be

7 certain that given the right circumstances, the Mitnica Battalion would

8 not have attempted to storm the hangar, take it by force, or indeed

9 escape. That's the one thing. On the other hand, you have the behaviour

10 of our soldiers. The third aspect of this situation is the knife that

11 Karaula is carrying, not to mention anything else.

12 Q. Well, can I just set aside the knife? Can you just show us with

13 your fingers the dimensions of the blade of the knife itself actually?

14 Can you just hold your two fingers up and show us the knife that Karaula

15 had?

16 A. It was a small knife, and that's what I said. But the fact is

17 that the security detail commander did not have this piece of information

18 that Karaula had been allowed to keep the knife.

19 Q. I've asked you just to demonstrate between your two fingers the

20 size of this knife that he had that was such a concern?

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. And the blade was half that, would that be right?

23 A. This would be the size.

24 Q. And your soldiers had Kalashnikovs presumably, would that be

25 right?

Page 15465

1 A. Yes, they did.

2 Q. Well, what I'm --

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, the record might record an indication,

4 something about ten centimetres or a little more?

5 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. I'm sorry. I had forgotten

6 about that.

7 Q. Now, what I would like to know is this: Would it be right to say

8 the reason that you spoke to the officer in charge of the JNA soldiers was

9 because he had an extremely important task, that as far as you were aware,

10 he controlled the situation? Would that be right?

11 A. I spoke to both at the same time, the commander of the security

12 and Mr. Karaula, at the same time.

13 Q. But I am talking to you about the officer in charge of the JNA

14 soldiers. You spoke to him because he was basically in control of the

15 situation, in realistic terms?

16 A. He was in charge of security.

17 Q. And did you consider it to be an important task, the fact that you

18 should ensure that everybody understood what you were saying to them about

19 adherence to the Geneva Convention?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And I think it's right to say, and forgive me if my memory is

22 wrong, I think you stayed ten or 15 minutes; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And when you spoke to the officers, was that inside or outside the

25 hangar? That's Karaula and the officer of the JNA.

Page 15466

1 A. In front of the hangar.

2 Q. And it would be right to say that that conversation was with the

3 JNA officer principally for that period, would that be right, before you

4 left?

5 A. The conversation was held in the presence of both of them.

6 Q. And the conversation lasted ten or 15 minutes?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. May I deal, then, please, with where did you go afterwards? I

9 think from memory you said you went to Negoslavci. Is that right?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Now, we have got an exhibit, the Court know it and I'm not going

12 to refer to it unless it's absolutely necessary, but it's right, is it

13 not, that, as you've already said, you introduced yourself so he knew who

14 he was dealing with? Isn't that right?

15 A. I introduced myself to both of them. I don't know who you're

16 referring to.

17 Q. Well, there is one question that I'm curious about and it is this:

18 Normally if you were dealing with a handover or in ensuring that things

19 behave -- people behave properly, you find out the name of the person to

20 whom you're talking to and the officer who is principally in charge, just

21 in case you need to speak to him or somebody else needs to speak to him.

22 Do you see my point?

23 A. So somebody gave a task to the commander of the security, in

24 military sense, prepared him for the -- for securing the hangar and the

25 prisoners there. Somebody had transported those prisoners to the hangar.

Page 15467

1 The prisoners entered the hangar. The moment when I appear is solely to

2 make this suggestion, to prevent something that shouldn't happen from

3 happening. So the only reason why I was there was this. Now, as to who

4 actually issued the order in military terms, in combat terms, to this

5 commander of the security detail, I don't know. I don't know who had

6 brought, transported the prisoners there. This was simply a preventive

7 action.

8 Q. It's my fault for perhaps not indicating exactly the point

9 accurately. I am asking or inquiring, if one is dealing with a commander

10 in charge of the security of, as we know, I think 182 people who have

11 surrendered, what I will call prisoners of war, one would expect to know

12 who it is you are speaking to. For example, something might happen when

13 you return. Someone might ask you, "Who did you speak to?" Someone might

14 ask you, "Who is in charge there?" I'm asking, did you inquire -- did you

15 inquire of his name to make sure that you would be covered in those areas?

16 A. It is possible that the captain actually introduced himself, but I

17 did not remember his name. And had there been any need for me to call him

18 later on, or for him to call me, regarding any prisoner-related issue,

19 there was no such need because this was not within the purview of me and

20 of the security organ.

21 Q. But that's not right, is it? The reality is you were there to

22 ensure that everything was being done properly. So therefore you have to

23 take into account all eventualities, one of those eventualities you've

24 already mentioned to us, that this particular battalion might have turned

25 on their soldiers. So I'd like to move off this point fairly quickly.

Page 15468

1 Did he or did he not or did you inquire of his name and the unit to which

2 he belonged?

3 A. I don't follow. Did the commander of the security detail ask

4 about my name or did I ask his name? I didn't understand you.

5 Q. Did you ask of his name?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ask of his unit?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you say to him, "Should anything go wrong, we have to be able

10 to contact someone"? How were you going to ensure that there was contact

11 if there was a problem?

12 A. Please, sir. Let me repeat. He had been given his task down his

13 chain of command from his superior. That's one thing. Secondly, there

14 was absolutely no need for the commander to contact me regarding any issue

15 whatsoever. This was a command task and it simply means that somebody

16 within the chain of command ordered him to prepare his unit to take the

17 control of the hangar, of the building, to secure it and so on.

18 Q. Let us just follow, then, your path on the 18th. Within 15

19 minutes, you were away from Ovcara. That is right, isn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you say that you went to Negoslavci; is that right?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. And at no time on the 18th did you return to the general area of

24 Ovcara. That is right also, isn't it?

25 A. Yes, that is right. I did not.

Page 15469

1 Q. Do you by any chance know of a place which is -- I think it's

2 called Sremski front and Sid?

3 A. I've already answered this question when the Defence counsel asked

4 me. The town of Sid, the only time I visited it was in 2003, with a

5 high-ranking political state official, on official business, and until

6 that time, I had never been there at all, never, ever.

7 Q. And so you knew nothing about a school in that area, or staying or

8 being at that school on the night of the 18th; is that right?

9 A. What school are you referring to?

10 Q. Well, we have heard evidence, you see, that you gave a forwarding

11 place where you would be. It wasn't at Negoslavci because Negoslavci is

12 where the security organ tend to reside. You were actually saying on that

13 evening, we would suggest, that you were at Sid, and you told Vezmarovic

14 that. You don't accept that; is that right?

15 A. This is patently untrue. Please. Throughout the tour of duty of

16 the Guards Brigade in Negoslavci, while it was stationed there, I never

17 went to any other place, and Sid, least of all. That is so patently

18 untrue.

19 Q. And is it correct that when you left the hangar at Ovcara on the

20 18th, that you were aware that you had to return on the 19th to ensure the

21 continuation of the evacuation?

22 A. No. Because I was not in charge of the evacuation. I was given

23 this task to go back there the next morning, later on. At that time I was

24 not quite clear what it meant actually.

25 Q. Well, what do you mean, it's not quite clear. Because I'll

Page 15470

1 suggest what's clear to you, that when you were there on the 18th, and

2 spoke to Vezmarovic, you indicated to him that you would be returning,

3 perhaps that evening, but almost certainly on the 19th?

4 A. No, no. This is completely incorrect. I have absolutely no

5 comment when you put such things to me. The task was given to me by

6 Mr. Sljivancanin. It was later on, in the office, to monitor the

7 transport, to see whether everything went well, so I couldn't have known

8 that before Mr. Sljivancanin gave me this task.

9 Q. So we get it absolutely clear, you didn't say to Vezmarovic, you

10 would be back the next day? It was only by chance and a subsequent order

11 by Sljivancanin that you arrived the next day? That's what you're saying,

12 isn't it?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. And the reality also of the situation is that he saw you on the

15 19th in the morning; isn't that right?

16 A. I was there in the morning, yes.

17 Q. Can you just remind us again, please, while I just hunt in my

18 notebook, I think you stayed there at Ovcara, I think you say, one and a

19 half to two hours; is that right, on the morning of the 19th?

20 A. Approximately, yes.

21 Q. And what were you doing that morning at Ovcara?

22 A. The task was to go there and to verify whether everything was

23 fine, whether the boarding was proceeding well, and whether there were any

24 counter-intelligence-related problems.

25 Q. So who did you ask about these topics? The same security officer?

Page 15471

1 A. I think I asked him whether he had any observations to make, but

2 not just him.

3 Q. But I want to try and go into a little more detail. Forgive me, I

4 don't fully understand. You're asking about whether there was any

5 trouble, would that be correct, through the evening, the previous evening;

6 is that right?

7 A. That was the usual question: Is everything fine? Not the

8 preceding evening, but at all times during the boarding and so on. This

9 was just the usual question one asks, is everything fine?

10 Q. And the boarding, how many buses, approximately, were there?

11 A. Three, four buses.

12 Q. And would it be right to say that the procedure for boarding was

13 to bring them a bus to the hangar and then move individuals in in an

14 independent way? Describe to us how it was done, please, with the

15 assistance of the officer.

16 A. As far as I'm able to recall, the people who were in charge of

17 this procedure were doing it like this: Food was distributed in front of

18 the entrance, and then maybe some 15 metres away from there there were

19 buses, and after people took food, they boarded the buses. That is as far

20 as I was able to see and recall.

21 Q. But the reason that it took one and a half to two hours was

22 because one was bringing them out in small groups; would that be right?

23 A. If you want to say that I was there specifically because of them,

24 that was not the case. I did not remain there until the end there in

25 front of the hangar.

Page 15472

1 Q. No, but you told us you were there for one and a half hours to two

2 hours. I just want to know what you were doing, what the procedure was

3 when you were there.

4 A. From -- for my part, the procedure was non-existent. There is a

5 method in the work of intelligence officers, which is called personal

6 observation.

7 Q. And can I then perhaps shorten it then this way: That the officer

8 who was in charge of security was around and about through that period to

9 make sure that things were proceeding properly? Would that be a fair way

10 of putting it?

11 A. No, no. I was an intelligence officer. I was not a security

12 officer. I was not in charge of the security of the Mitnica Battalion

13 troops.

14 Q. Well, what shall we call Vezmarovic? What title shall we give

15 him? The commander of security?

16 A. Vezmarovic was the komandir of the unit that was tasked with

17 securing the Mitnica Battalion members.

18 Q. So can I put it this way, then? That through that one and a half

19 to two hours, the komandir, i.e., Vezmarovic, was there ensuring that it

20 was done properly? Would that be a fair way of putting it?

21 A. I don't know how long Vezmarovic spent there, but he and his unit

22 were tasked with securing, protecting the Mitnica Battalion and he

23 received that task down the chain of command, I assume from his superior

24 officer.

25 Q. Well, I'll approach it a different way. It's right, isn't it,

Page 15473

1 that Vezmarovic remained at the Ovcara hangar for the period that you were

2 there? Isn't that right?

3 A. The hour or the one hour and a half, he was there, as far as I can

4 recall.

5 Q. Thank you very much. It's my error and I apologise for it. I go

6 back to the 18th. Did you see buses on the 18th, when you arrived at

7 Ovcara?

8 A. No.

9 Q. When you arrived there, presumably you wanted to make sure that

10 all of the Mitnica Battalion was under proper supervision and control, and

11 that's why you suggested the rope. Would that be fair?

12 A. I suggested to both sides that if they thought it necessary, they

13 could string this piece of rope so that there would be some kind of a

14 fence and that people would not be crossing over, to prevent any

15 incidents.

16 Q. And that was your way to make sure that all of the Mitnica

17 Battalion was under proper supervision; is that right?

18 A. That was just a suggestion I made to the security commander,

19 komandir.

20 Q. But it was to ensure that 182 people were kept under control;

21 isn't that right? If Mr. Borovic could keep his voice down, I would be

22 very grateful. That's right, isn't it? Mr. Karanfilov? It was a way of

23 making sure that 182 people were kept under control?

24 A. The situation would have been under control even without this

25 measure.

Page 15474

1 Q. It's a way of ensuring that the Mitnica Battalion was kept under

2 control; that is right, isn't it?

3 A. The rope was not put -- in fact, the suggestion about the rope was

4 not made only because of the Mitnica Battalion. It was because of both

5 sides and this was just a suggestion that need not have been taken at all.

6 Q. I understand exactly what you're saying, but would it be right to

7 say, that there was, perhaps, a natural concern that you had 182 soldiers

8 and officers under JNA supervision at that time?

9 A. Natural concern? What do you mean? In what sense?

10 Q. In the following sense: You have a battalion -- you have a

11 battalion of people who were combatants. You have said that you spoke to

12 Karaula and Vezmarovic to ensure that neither side would aggravate the

13 other. Do you follow me? And therefore, if you have --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- 182 people, because that's the number that -- that was the

16 number of the Mitnica Battalion. If you had that many, you had to make

17 sure they were kept under proper supervision. Simple point, I'd suggest.

18 A. The rope -- the purpose of the rope should have been, and I hope

19 that in fact it was, to limit the movement of both sides, to restrict

20 their -- the area where they could move. And I have to repeat: I assume

21 that the commander of the security detail had been given very strict tasks

22 and the manner in which this task was to be carried out, in terms of

23 securing those prisoners.

24 Q. But I repeat, since it's obviously the way I'm putting the

25 question: There was always a danger of a battalion turning nasty and,

Page 15475

1 therefore, security at that time had to be put in place to make sure that

2 didn't occur; isn't that right?

3 A. Let's put it that way.

4 Q. Your Honour, would that be an appropriate moment?

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

6 Before we break, could I indicate, Mr. Domazet, that inquiries

7 have indicated that on Tuesday the 5th, the only change possible in the

8 sitting would be for this Chamber to sit between 1.00 and 5.00 p.m. That

9 is about half an hour less than we would normally sit. It would be one

10 break of about halfway through that period. That would allow a court, an

11 appeal which is scheduled to finish at 12.30 to finish and another

12 proceeding, which is scheduled for 5.30 to commence. That is the only

13 change possible on Tuesday, and unfortunately no change is possible on the

14 Wednesday because the times have been set to allow for the arrival times

15 of counsel who are flying in.

16 Is that change on Tuesday something that would be convenient to

17 all people and would the loss of about half an hour sitting time be a

18 problem? Are there any submissions?

19 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I'm

20 concerned, and in fact the Defence team is concerned, we would accept this

21 possibility and I would like to thank you, because that would make it

22 possible for me to attend the trial. In light of what Mr. Lukic said

23 today, that he would take one session at the most for the

24 examination-in-chief, I would need one more session for my examination. I

25 will strife to do so, to complete it, and then this problem that I have

Page 15476

1 would be solved. I think that this is something that would be to the

2 liking of Mr. Lukic and that is definitely a solution for me. It really

3 works for me.

4 JUDGE PARKER: I see no resistance and Mr. Domazet has lowered his

5 bid for time from one and a half sessions to one session, so I think we

6 will decide upon that now. On Tuesday then, sitting from 1.00 until 5.00.

7 Otherwise, the times will remain during next week as programmed.

8 We adjourn now and resume tomorrow at 2.15.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of

11 November, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.