Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15561

1 Wednesday, 29 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, good afternoon.

6 Mr. Lukic, I see you eager to speak.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a piece of

8 information for you and a clarification, just to see if I got it right,

9 and it has to do with the schedule.

10 When we were trying to put the schedule together, we thought that

11 Mr. Karan and Mr. Karanfilov would take up more of our time and that is

12 why we scheduled Mr. Susnjar's arrival for today. We thought that he

13 would not start his testimony before Friday. From what I can gather and

14 from my conversation with my colleagues, we believe that Mr. Karan would

15 be finished early tomorrow or perhaps even by the end of today. I have

16 maybe an hour and my colleagues have not indicated that they would ask too

17 many questions.

18 There is this terrible fog at Belgrade airport and his plane has

19 not landed; in fact, it hasn't even departed yet. It should land sometime

20 around 6.00 p.m. at Schipol, and given the procedure that he has to go

21 through, he would probably not be available until this evening, and I

22 don't know, given this really tiring travel, I don't know whether he would

23 be in any mood to go through the proofing.

24 The Prosecution has also expressed its wish to talk to him. I

25 don't know whether he would be willing to accommodate them. And it would

Page 15562

1 not be good for us to bring him to the courtroom without the proofing

2 notes, and we have reason to believe that the Prosecution would like to

3 interview him before his testimony.

4 This is one of the witnesses who has not given any statements yet

5 to anyone, at least not to my knowledge. This is the same case as

6 Mr. Korica, Stojic and Karan, which means that our proofing notes should

7 be really detailed as we have strived to do so far.

8 So what I want to ask you in this regard is if we end Mr. Karan's

9 testimony today, we should not begin with Mr. Susnjar's testimony until --

10 before Friday, and then we are again in accordance with the schedule,

11 because I don't think that Mr. Susnjar would be testifying that long,

12 maybe just one session, and then we can start with Mr. Vuga, our military

13 expert, on Tuesday. His testimony concern only one topic. If the

14 Prosecution insists on interviewing Mr. Susnjar, and if he agrees, then I

15 can't see how we can really bring him to the courtroom in the afternoon.

16 This is the first time that our Defence has asked for a little bit

17 of leeway after this very intense period in which we had witnesses back to

18 back in the courtroom.

19 This is what I wanted to let you know and to ask you if we finish

20 with Mr. Karan today, not to have Mr. Susnjar in court tomorrow. It

21 will, -- in fact, it is still questionable whether the plane will be able

22 to take off at all, because there is this terrible, terrible fog at the

23 Belgrade airport.

24 This is all I have to say.

25 JUDGE PARKER: As long as the fog is not in courtroom number two,

Page 15563

1 Mr. Lukic.

2 I suspect that your motion is: Whatever happens to the finishing

3 time of the present witness, you would like to have the next witness on

4 Friday afternoon and not before -- Friday morning.

5 MR. LUKIC: Morning.

6 JUDGE PARKER: We have now moved. Yes. And then you would see

7 the last witness being called on Tuesday, as we had discussed earlier.

8 Mr. Moore.

9 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, the matter with Mr. Susnjar may not be as

10 simple as my learned friend, Mr. Lukic, considers, for the following

11 reason. I've been in contact with the International Committee of the Red

12 Cross. There are certain constraints imposed by the Red Cross,

13 International Committee of the Red Cross, in respect of individuals giving

14 evidence. Now, it is something that concerned me, and clearly I do not

15 wish in any way to try and interfere with my learned friend's application

16 to call this witness, but I wished to clarify whether in actual fact there

17 would be any difficulties for us to speak to the witness as I had

18 intended.

19 My understanding, and this was only done at lunch-time today when

20 I was able to speak to the person who is dealing with the issue, is that

21 they -- the International Committee of the Red Cross may wish to have

22 representation in relation to the calling of that witness because, as far

23 as I understand, there may be authorities in existence and -- which have

24 already been decided which indicate not only in relation to the

25 International Committee of the Red Cross being precluded from giving

Page 15564

1 evidence, but what I will call national Red Cross institutions or persons

2 being caught by that same constraint. So it is not my task in any way to

3 try and block. I am neutral in relation to this. But it's only right and

4 fair that the Court should be aware that there may be a problem.

5 Coincidentally and fortuitously, the person dealing with that

6 point for the International Committee of the Red Cross is at the ICC

7 today, and I have spoken to her and she is intending to fly back to Geneva

8 on Friday afternoon. I have indicated to her, and I know that others here

9 have indicated to her, it may be that she would wish to speak to the

10 witness or have representation in court. That is a matter for them. But

11 as I say, it may well be a preliminary matter that has to be determined,

12 and I just put the Court on notice of that.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, Mr. Moore. And no doubt

14 Mr. Lukic has taken that under his consideration. They are issues that

15 concern initially the party. They may or may not lead to some issue being

16 raised before this Chamber. That will wait the fullness of time.

17 As far as the application by Mr. Lukic about the time that we

18 would programme the evidence of the witness, in view of, I assume from

19 your comments, the fact that you have no observations to make about that

20 particular motion, the Chamber certainly, Mr. Lukic, would hear the

21 witness on Friday and not before, and it does so on the basis and

22 expectation that the evidence of that witness can be well concluded within

23 one day; that is, on Friday.

24 So you can plan on that basis.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That's what I

Page 15565

1 thought and I think that we will all strive to do so.

2 I have also been made aware of some decisions and orders of this

3 Tribunal regarding representatives of the ICRC, and I will discuss this

4 with Mr. Susnjar and ask him what he knows about this, what he thinks

5 about this, and I will let the Prosecution know so that we have a -- that

6 the situation is clear before Friday for all of us.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

8 We will have the witness then, if we may.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE PARKER: I would remind you that the affirmation you took at

15 the beginning of your evidence still applies.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Lukic.

19 Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Karan.

21 A. Good afternoon.

22 Q. We will continue with your evidence now, and I would like to pick

23 up where we left off yesterday and that was with your recollection of the

24 19th of November. And let me ask you what happened the next morning?

25 What do you recall -- what did you do on the morning of the 20th?

Page 15566

1 A. When we woke up, it was quite early. Mr. Sljivancanin and myself

2 and the doctor and the driver, we all went to the hospital. We got there

3 at around -- in fact, we left at around 6.00, I can't recall exactly, but

4 I know that it was very early.

5 Q. Can you tell us, you mentioned this doctor, who was he?

6 A. That was a doctor who had arrived, I think from Novi Sad. He was

7 an officer. He was in a military uniform, military officer uniform.

8 En route, on the outskirts of Vukovar or as we already came into Vukovar,

9 we were stopped by a group of people. Now I don't recall this very

10 precisely because I was in the back seat. And Mr. Sljivancanin, he was in

11 the passenger seat, in the front passenger seat. He spoke to one person.

12 He rolled down the window and spoke to this person. I didn't know that

13 person at the time, but I remembered that person because he was quite

14 arrogant and he was completely bald, and I was able to see that from the

15 vehicle because I was sitting above him. He was not very tall.

16 I moved from my seat to the rear entrance to the vehicle and two

17 more people got into the car, and that's how we finally got to the

18 hospital.

19 Q. During this encounter, did Sljivancanin ever leave the vehicle?

20 A. No, no.

21 Q. So as far as I understood, he was in the vehicle at all times?

22 A. Yes. He was sitting in the passenger seat, the front passenger

23 seat.

24 This was not a quarrel of any kind. It's just that this person

25 had this attitude. At least that's how I saw him. And he spoke in a loud

Page 15567

1 voice. But it was not any kind of a quarrel.

2 Q. Did this person later say who he was? Did you later learn who he

3 was?

4 A. Yes. It was retired Colonel Vujic. I had heard of him, but I

5 think that he had retired before I joined the security administration, so

6 he was not there when I joined it.

7 Q. Can you please tell us: En route to the hospital and in the

8 hospital itself, did you see or hear Sljivancanin issue any orders to

9 Colonel Vujic?

10 A. No. It would be absurd, at least in the military as it was at the

11 time, and particularly in the security organ, the chain of command was

12 such that a person with a junior rank could not issue any orders to a

13 person of a senior rank, in particular, if that person had come from the

14 superior organ.

15 Q. What happened later? What do you recall about your arrival and

16 your stay in the hospital? What happened then?

17 A. When we got in, I immediately started carrying out my task. I

18 know that Mr. Sljivancanin and the doctor, I think his name was Ivankovic,

19 I don't know. At any rate, it started with an I. They went to attend

20 this meeting, and I and the Dr. Njavro, who was there, and another doctor

21 who -- whose name I don't remember, I just know that he was a doctor. I

22 don't know whether he was a local, but it seems to me that he was one of

23 the members of the Novi Sad team.

24 So we went down into the basement, what they called the shelter,

25 and I started carrying out my task in the following manner. Gjuro Njavro

Page 15568

1 went ahead with me and the other doctor followed us. I saw quite a few

2 people down there, a large number of people with bandages. Some had

3 plaster casts, some had bandages on their arms or heads and so on. And I

4 asked loud and clear whether any of them had any weapons. In fact,

5 Dr. Njavro repeated the same thing.

6 I think that one of the patients who had a plaster cast on his leg

7 or perhaps it was just a very thick bandage. It -- it was, in fact,

8 suspended from a triangle, that's what it looked like to me, and he spoke

9 up saying that he had a weapon. I asked him where it was. And he

10 indicated to a beam above him. It was part of the structure, the ceiling

11 of the basement, and there, wrapped in a plastic bag, was a Beretta

12 pistol. And as I continued with my task, nobody else of the wounded or of

13 the people who were present there reported having weapons and we didn't

14 find any weapons there.

15 Q. You mentioned that you went to do the rounds with Dr. Njavro and

16 another doctor who was from the team of military doctors. My question to

17 you is: Did you see the arrival of the medical -- military medical

18 doctors' arrival and what they did?

19 A. I don't know what they did. I didn't see that. I saw when they

20 arrived, it was a group of maybe six, seven, eight people. They were

21 standing there in the lobby of the hospital when I -- when we got there,

22 and later on, I didn't have the occasion to see what they were actually

23 doing.

24 Q. How long were you there in those corridors. How long did it take

25 you to do all that?

Page 15569

1 A. Well, less than an hour, I'd say, let's put it that way.

2 Q. Now I would like to ask you: During this hour, did you see anyone

3 being carried out from the hospital on a stretcher?

4 A. No. The reason for this is quite simple: We were the ones to get

5 in there first, into this area where the wounded and the sick were, and I

6 didn't see any such instances.

7 Q. When you say that you went in there first, who were those people

8 who went in there first?

9 A. Jure Njavro, myself, and this other doctor.

10 Q. As you made the rounds of this area, did you see Sljivancanin

11 anywhere?

12 A. No, I didn't see him at that time, because he had left. He had a

13 meeting to attend. I know that that's what he had to do. Now, as to who

14 he was supposed to meet, I learned later that Vesna Bosanac was there at

15 the meeting.

16 Q. Apart from the wounded and the sick and the medical staff that you

17 saw there, were there any people who belonged to the category that we

18 define as civilians, and, if yes, who were they doing? I mean people who

19 did not have any signs that would indicate that they are anything but

20 civilians.

21 A. There were such people there. There were some women there too. I

22 think I saw even some children there. But they stood to the side. They

23 were not lying down as were those who had some signs of injury.

24 Q. Please tell me, you told us that you didn't do the actual triage.

25 But for the triage that should have been carried out in the hospital, and

Page 15570

1 we described the tasks that that involved, can you define the category of

2 persons who would be defined as suspects for whom there are grounds of

3 suspicion of anything, as we put it in our legal system?

4 A. We had received reports that a couple of days before the fall of

5 Vukovar that there had been a general mobilisation of all men, and as far

6 as we were concerned, as the security organ, all of them could be

7 considered as persons who may have committed criminal offences that were

8 within our jurisdiction.

9 Q. Do you perhaps know what was the age bracket for the men of

10 military age in accordance with the law?

11 A. Yes, of course. The criminal offence of armed insurgency or

12 rebellion.

13 Q. And who would be people that could be considered the suspects of

14 that crime?

15 A. Persons above the age of 16.

16 Q. What happened later, after you visited the hospital?

17 A. Soon after this, Sljivancanin found me and he told me that I

18 should go to our offices in Negoslavci and organise, together with the

19 police, the transportation of Dr. Bosanac and Mladen Vidic, Bili, to

20 Mitrovica.

21 Q. Did you have an opportunity to actually see Dr. Vesna Bosanac in

22 the hospital before you departed for Negoslavci?

23 A. Yes, yes. I was in her office, in fact. It was just a brief

24 time. I didn't want to talk to her at all because of what happened the

25 previous day. This is what I already told you about.

Page 15571

1 Q. Was anyone else present there of the persons that you had

2 identified? Was she alone in her office or was there anyone else there?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. Just a moment, please. Actually, when did you leave the hospital,

5 roughly? Can you tell us what time it was, roughly, compared to the time

6 when you arrived?

7 A. Well, if we left at -- well, a bit after 6.00, and say 11.00,

8 12.00. I cannot say exactly what the time was. Maybe -- well, it

9 certainly wasn't any later than that.

10 Q. Let's look at it this way: When you were leaving the hospital,

11 did you see any search taking place there? Did you see any buses near the

12 hospital?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And did you, perhaps, see ambulances, convoys, journalists, TV

15 crews?

16 A. No, no one, except for the usual thing. Some of our policemen,

17 members of Simic's unit. That's what I saw.

18 Q. And what happened then? Where did you go? What did you do?

19 A. I went to our premises. I think that I then called Bozic, Captain

20 Bozic, and said to him that he should prepare vehicles for the transport

21 of people -- or, rather, Vesna Bosanac and Marin Vidic to go to Mitrovica.

22 And at the same time I said that I needed a vehicle, too, because I

23 received approval to go to Bijeljina from Mitrovica because I hadn't been

24 home for over a month.

25 Q. Who gave you this approval and when?

Page 15572

1 A. Major Sljivancanin, as far back as in the hospital. I asked him,

2 because Mitrovica is only about 50 kilometres away from Bijeljina, whether

3 I could go there, and he agreed with that.

4 After having come to our premises, I was preparing, well, not a

5 list of questions, but sort of a reminder that focused on what attention

6 should be devoted to, or, rather, what questions should be put if we

7 perhaps conduct interviews with persons in the future. These were

8 questions purely from our domain, and of course they were of interest in

9 view of some other activities, future activities.

10 I can remember some of it, some of it that was important. I think

11 that there were about 20, I made this outline on a page or so, that my

12 colleagues should focus on in possible interviews.

13 Q. Tell us, when did you leave for Mitrovica, if you did, and how did

14 this come about, and where did you leave from?

15 A. Well, this is what I had been dealing with, and I did not pay any

16 particular attention to this. I was just told that I would be informed

17 when the column was to be set up, and in the meantime, the vehicle

18 arrived, the one that I was supposed to take to Mitrovica and later on to

19 Bijeljina.

20 Sometime in the evening, night had fallen, I cannot remember

21 exactly whether it was 7.00 or 8.00. At any rate, it was dark. I was

22 informed that the column, the convoy of vehicles was ready. I went there

23 in this vehicle because this convoy was, say, about 100 metres away, in

24 the direction of Belgrade, if you view it from Vukovar, to see the head of

25 the convoy, that is.

Page 15573

1 Then, in two combat armoured vehicles - the doors were still

2 open - I saw that I would not be taking the two persons there with the

3 police, the ones that I was told I would be taking, but, rather, four

4 other persons. In the BOV, there was Vesna Bosanac, Njavro, Gjuro Njavro,

5 and Ante Navric [as interpreted], and in the other vehicle, it was only

6 Marin Vidic. So then I decided that Ante Navric should join Marin Vidic.

7 Now, how is it that I remember this? Because Marin Vidic asked me

8 where my guitar was. Since Bozic was pretty nervous, because we were not

9 leaving, at least that's what he looked like to me, I decided,

10 nevertheless, to go back and get my guitar, and I gave him the guitar. I

11 had a bit of trouble with some of the local people, the elderly people

12 like: What do you need the guitar for? And he said, Well -- and I said,

13 Let him have the guitar.

14 Q. Line 25: Vesna Bosanac and Gjuro Njavro and Ante Alic [as

15 interpreted], and in the other vehicle it was Marin Vidic, so I decided

16 that Ante Aric [as interpreted] should join Marin Vidic.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could Mr. Lukic please not

18 speak at the same time as the witness. Thank you.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that the names are wrong again

20 but I assume that it will be corrected later on the transcript.

21 I think that it is well known what persons are mentioned here, so

22 I don't really think we need to correct the transcript yet again.

23 Q. Mr. Karan, did you find out where Vesna Bosanac, Vidic, Njavro and

24 Alic were?

25 A. No. I saw them only in the morning in the hospital, but I didn't

Page 15574

1 know where they were throughout that day.

2 As for Marin Vidic, I know that the crime technicians, that is to

3 say, Karanfilov and Momcilovic, were supposed to go and see that shelter

4 since he knew where it was, but I'm not aware of any details. I don't

5 really want to go into that.

6 Q. Before the departure for Sremska Mitrovica, if I can put it that

7 way, from the moment when you left the hospital, on that day, did you have

8 an opportunity to see Major Sljivancanin again?

9 A. No, I didn't see him.

10 Q. Do you remember whether you saw Major Vukasinovic, perhaps, in

11 Negoslavci on that day when you were there before your trip?

12 A. No. I think -- or, rather, at one point in time while I was still

13 writing this up, Momcilovic walked up and I really wanted the stamp, the

14 seal to be returned because they had already set off for Belgrade and --

15 now do I remember this correctly? Since the guitar remained on our

16 premises, I came across Srecko Borisavljevic -- I'm not sure about this.

17 Q. All right. So you said two combat armoured vehicles. So who made

18 up this convoy and when did you roughly arrive at the prison in Mitrovica?

19 A. The head of the convoy in the Puch vehicle, that was Bozic with

20 the police. In every one of the combat armoured vehicles, there were two

21 policemen respectively as security, and I was in the last BOV on my own --

22 or, rather, it was not a BOV, sorry about that, it was a Puch.

23 We arrived. It could have been quite late. I know we had quite a

24 few problems. We'd need, say, an hour and a half to Mitrovica, but

25 perhaps a bit more because these are combat vehicles, but we strayed a bit

Page 15575

1 because we couldn't find our way around the prison compound. We could not

2 get to the right entrance. Somebody told us go this way, others told us

3 go that way, so we didn't get it right, so we weren't received straight

4 away.

5 I know that they were a bit angry with me because we were late, a

6 bit, in arriving, but that was just their view.

7 Q. Just tell us who was "they," who was angry at you?

8 A. The people there, the guards there, whatever you call them, in the

9 prison itself at the reception there.

10 I got in, together with the vehicles, that is, I entered the

11 compound, and I remember that Dr. Bosanac was separated straight away and

12 taken into a room, a big room. During the winter, it is perhaps used for

13 some sports activities. I don't want to say that there are seats for

14 spectators there, too, but sort of a big sports hall.

15 As for the men, they asked them to lie down on the asphalt of this

16 basketball field that was there, about 20 metres away from the building.

17 I personally did not find this scene to be a very pleasant one because the

18 weather was very cold and - how should I put this? - they treated them a

19 bit roughly, but I thought, well, perhaps it is their rules of conduct so

20 I didn't really interfere.

21 After that, Bozic went to -- well, to wherever he was going to,

22 and I went to Bijeljina.

23 Q. Was that your first trip to Bijeljina during the war?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. Do you remember how long you stayed at your apartment in

Page 15576

1 Bijeljina?

2 A. I arrived during the night. I arrived after midnight, it was,

3 say, 1.00, 1.30. So if I take into account that night and then the next

4 day and spent the night after that there and then arrived the following

5 day. So say it was about two days.

6 Q. Where did you return after two days?

7 A. To my job in Vukovar, or, rather, in Negoslavci.

8 Q. Do you perhaps remember when it was that you returned to Belgrade?

9 A. Well, when I returned, there was quite a bit of euphoria. People

10 were cheerful. People found out that there was no new assignment. The

11 whole unit was going back to Belgrade, so we started packing our

12 equipment. We returned a few days after I came back, say, two days later,

13 two, three, I don't know exactly. We didn't stay long.

14 Q. Mr. Karan, during your stay in Vukovar, were you ever at Ovcara,

15 and do you know what Ovcara is? I mean now you probably have different

16 associations, but what did the concept of Ovcara mean to you at that time?

17 A. I was there once in the beginning, and I knew that there was this

18 farm there. I remember that once Major Sljivancanin told me to go -- I

19 mean, I was supposed to give some of my units, some journalists were

20 coming, and I went there, and when I saw what it was like, that there were

21 rats there, I know that I myself would never eat that kind of meat or

22 pork, so I decided not to take anything from there. And that is my first

23 knowledge of Ovcara.

24 Major Sljivancanin was upset, of course, but I said it's better

25 for us not to eat that because we could get trichinella, so we had a bit

Page 15577

1 of a clash on account of that, if I can put it that way.

2 Q. Did you ever go to Ovcara after that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. When you now think about the 19th and the 20th when this

5 assignment was being agreed upon and when you were working at the hospital

6 on the 20th, did you hear of anyone mentioning Ovcara, the locality of

7 Ovcara, concerning the evacuation?

8 A. No. As far as I know, no, not to me.

9 Q. In your CV, in the beginning, we heard that in 1995, you found

10 yourself in Vukovar again for a short period of time. This is quite far

11 away from the indictment, but we are speaking of the same locality. But

12 can you tell us briefly, just in a few words, why you spent this short

13 period of time in Vukovar?

14 A. Well, quite simply, when I became the chief of security of the

15 11th Corps in Vukovar of the Serb Krajina army, I soon realised that the

16 chiefs of security of the brigades were not working in the spirit of

17 regulations and according to rules and that they were actually appointed

18 by the MUP and that they were working on the basis of their requests. So

19 I practically removed, replaced all the chiefs of brigades. I just left

20 the chief of the counter-intelligence group. And for the chiefs of -- the

21 security of the brigades, I brought the heads of the brigades from that

22 part of Krajina that had already fallen under Croatian control. That was

23 a pre-condition to get anything done.

24 Of course what I did did not suit the local power mongers and the

25 structures of the MUP of Serbia, especially not the DB, the state

Page 15578

1 security, because very soon we severed some chains of illegal trafficking

2 that the police had been participating in as well because the commander of

3 the battalion was engaged together with them. And in that situation, the

4 easiest thing to do was to say that I was a traitor, that I was a

5 criminal, and to expel me for good. I was banished from that territory,

6 and I left after the 20th with a security organ, the zone of

7 responsibility of the 11th Corps. That would be it, in the briefest

8 possible terms.

9 Q. This is my last question now, Mr. Karan. Now, can you tell us,

10 Mr. Karan, you know what is at the heart of this case here, and can you

11 tell us when did you learn about the incident at Ovcara?

12 A. When we got back in -- when I got back, in fact, I had had a

13 family tragedy, a tragic event in my family. My son -- or brother-in-law

14 died in February, was killed in February 1992. I took up a new post. I

15 went to Krajina, spent two years there, and after the departure from

16 there, once it was already firmly established in the media and when it was

17 general knowledge.

18 Q. So did you learn about it from the media or how did you learn

19 about it?

20 A. I don't know whether I learned about it from the media, but I knew

21 that Mr. Sljivancanin was being charged with it. So that would be the

22 period, thereabouts.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

24 further questions. Let me just note that we received some documents --

25 one document from the Prosecution. I haven't really had a chance to

Page 15579

1 inspect this. This pertains to 1995. If it happens to be relevant for

2 any party to discuss this document with the witness, perhaps it would be

3 fair for the witness to be acquainted with the document beforehand. In my

4 view, it is not really relevant for the merits of the case. I can't

5 really say that with any authority because I haven't read it yet.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

7 Mr. Vasic.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

9 afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

10 Examination by Mr. Vasic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Karan.

12 A. Good afternoon.

13 Q. I will repeat the instructions that my learned colleague Mr. Lukic

14 has already given you, to make pause between question and answer. I think

15 that the pace that you maintained with Mr. Lukic was quite satisfactory

16 and that everything actually managed to be recorded.

17 We heard yesterday that you, as part of the military security,

18 that you had your tasks and that in 1991 until October, you were in fact a

19 desk officer in the 1st department of the security administration, that's

20 the so-called operational department, and Colonel Gligorevic was at its

21 head; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. You told us that this department, in fact, coordinated

24 counter-intelligence work in the whole of the territory of what was then

25 the SFRY, both in the JNA and in the Territorial Defence. Am I correct?

Page 15580

1 Could you please repeat your answer because it -- you weren't heard.

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Thank you. You also told us that at one point, as the most junior

4 but very capable officer, you were given the task to monitor the situation

5 in all the republics of the former Yugoslavia apart from Serbia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. My question to you is whether you remember a piece of information

8 in the fall of 1991 about their breaking into the building of the

9 5th Corps of the air force and the whole scandal that broke out at that

10 time. It was called Labrador.

11 A. I do remember some details.

12 Q. I will not be asking you about the details of this operation, the

13 Labrador operation, and the members of that group. What I want to ask you

14 is this: Do you remember after this infiltration occurred that the group

15 of officers was arrested in Zagreb?

16 A. I think that's what happened.

17 Q. Can you tell me whether the prevailing opinion in the security

18 administration was that this group and the network of its collaborators in

19 the Republic of Croatia should be remained intact at all costs, that they

20 should not be -- that they should be protected against detection and

21 arrest?

22 A. Let me be quite clear: A very limited number of people in the

23 security administration at the time when this scandal, in fact, broke out

24 knew about this operation at all under its name. This was its secret

25 code-name. So only the person that was immediately in charge, that was

Page 15581

1 running the operation, that would be a high-ranking officer in the

2 administration, the chief of administration, and probably the chief of the

3 analysis department, they would be the ones to know about that, and all

4 the others didn't know about that.

5 I don't know exactly whether this was the prevailing view among

6 the leading figures in the security administration, whether the

7 collaborators should be kept in place. What I do know is that in

8 administrative terms, everything was done by the book, in procedural

9 terms, when they were admitted into the service, because that was the only

10 way in which the collaborator and the officer running that person could

11 maintain contact. All the other contacts with person that could be called

12 by somebody collaborators, that all boiled down to friendship,

13 acquaintances. So only the controller and the collaborator had this

14 official kind of relationship because this officer -- this person would

15 have the card, the record, the file in the security administration about

16 all the persons that were collaborating with the service from the

17 beginning until the end.

18 I assume that the administration tried to keep these people in

19 place because these people did not have their ID with them. They had to

20 actually confess to being collaborators of the service because I'm sure

21 that the other side, the administration, did not want to do that. So I

22 don't know if I was clear, but I was talking about the official

23 relationship.

24 Q. Thank you. Yeah, things are quite clear to me now. Bearing in

25 mind the fact that you had already moved on to the Guards Brigade but then

Page 15582

1 you went back to Belgrade, do you know that in December there was an

2 exchange. On the one hand, there were the members of the Labrador group,

3 and on the other side, there were some people that were sought by the

4 Republic of Croatia, or the then Croatian state, and some of the persons

5 that were exchanged were actually brought from Sremska Mitrovica by you.

6 Do you know anything about this exchange that took place at the Pleso

7 airport in Zagreb and that was run directly by General Vasiljevic?

8 A. If this was the exchange that was arranged by Prime Minister Panic

9 on the principle of all for all, then that's it. That's the one I had in

10 mind. I mean Milan Panic, the prime minister. And if that's the one that

11 you mean, then I don't know what you're talking about.

12 Q. Do you know when Vesna Bosanac was exchanged and who was she

13 exchanged for? Did you make any inquiries, do you have any information

14 about that?

15 A. No. But I did know that a written document was issued by the U.S.

16 government, a note inquiring from our authorities what was in store for

17 her and asking for lenience or for favourable treatment of her.

18 Q. Did you know about an order that some other people, apart from

19 Dr. Bosanac, such as Dr. Njavro or Mr. Aric, should also be kept safe and

20 treated in the same manner as persons who should be given special security

21 measures and that this order was in fact issued by the security

22 administration?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you. Do you know while you were in the first operational

25 department of the security administration, that in Eastern Slavonia,

Page 15583

1 Baranja and Western Srem, that would be the Vukovar theatre, that the

2 counter-intelligence group from the 1st Military District was active

3 there, it was headed by a colonel?

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note we didn't get the name.

5 A. Yes, but Ljubisa Petkovic was not at the head. So Babic was in

6 fact -- General Babic was the head of the district, and Ljubisa Petkovic

7 was his assistant for counter-intelligence. And I think that there was

8 another person who was the chief of the counter-intelligence group but

9 perhaps that may be a mistake. It doesn't change anything anyway.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] In fact, the answer given by the

11 witness contains the correction -- or, rather, the name that the

12 interpreters couldn't catch so I'm not going to repeat it now.

13 Q. Can you tell me whether this counter-intelligence group had its

14 headquarters in Sid; do you know that?

15 A. Its headquarters were in Belgrade, but perhaps the forward group

16 that was involved in operations in this area may have been headquartered

17 in Sid. At any rate, I didn't have any contacts with them because I was

18 in the brigade. And later on, later that year in 1992, I was already in

19 the security department of the cabinet of the Federal Secretary of

20 National Defence.

21 Q. Thank you. And was there another counter-intelligence group, the

22 air force counter-intelligence group, active in this area? That would be

23 the air force and the anti-aircraft defence counter-intelligence group.

24 A. I do know some officers from the air force who were in that

25 territory. Now, whether they belonged to the counter-intelligence group

Page 15584

1 run by the air force, or whether they were there simply as members of the

2 command of the air force and anti-aircraft defence, I don't know that, but

3 they were there. That's what I know. I knew only the chief, Rakocevic,

4 because they didn't mingle with us that much. They kept to themselves, so

5 I didn't know any junior officers.

6 Q. Thank you. Both these counter-intelligence groups, they were, in

7 fact, subordinate to the security administration during their operations

8 in this area; is that correct?

9 A. I have to correct you. The counter-intelligence group of the air

10 force was subordinate to the Chief of Staff of the air force, and the

11 counter-intelligence group of the 1st Military District security organ was

12 subordinate to the chief of the security organ of the 1st Military

13 District. There was a unit that would be more of a stationary nature and

14 they had more equipment and they were used to a different purpose. They

15 are called the counter-intelligence centre but that's an entirely

16 different unit. They were not as mobile as the counter-intelligence

17 groups that were in those branches or at lower levels.

18 Q. Those counter-intelligence groups, in accordance with the rules of

19 service, did they establish their network of collaborators in the area

20 where they were active or not?

21 A. Naturally the security organ without collaborators has no

22 raison d'etre at all.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know if we can

25 move into private session because I want to raise an issue. I want to

Page 15585

1 consult you on a matter.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15586











11 Pages 15586-15587 redacted. Private session.















Page 15588

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. Yesterday you said when you came to the Guards Brigade, you became

18 assistant chief of security department for intelligence work; is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Also you told us yesterday about the reports you wrote as an

22 experienced operative and that were signed by the chief. I would like to

23 ask you whether you, as assistant chief, were authorised to sign the

24 reports that you sent?

25 A. According to the rules, the report of the security organs of the

Page 15589

1 Guards Brigade were supposed to be signed by Mr. Sljivancanin. That

2 report that bears my signature says that it was written at 9.00. I cannot

3 remember, but probably that was the day I arrived, or, rather, the second

4 day after my arrival when I got in place, as it were, and before that,

5 Mr. Sljivancanin was not there, and our division in the cabinet could

6 hardly wait to get at least their first report from that area. So that is

7 the reason why I signed it. Otherwise, I do not have the right to do

8 that. I was cautioned about that. However, I didn't want us to wait for

9 Mr. Sljivancanin to come.

10 Q. Well, that's exactly what I wanted to ask you about, not the

11 specific report, but you explained that -- because you explained that

12 yesterday. What happens when the chief is absent? It couldn't really be

13 the case that they have to wait for him. Does anybody have the authority

14 to sign for him and was it you?

15 A. I could sign for him. But during his absence outside -- when he

16 is outside the combat zone, Vukasinovic was practically the deputy then,

17 although I was supposed to be the deputy because I was assistant for

18 counter-intelligence. However, I did not take that duty, and it was

19 logical for the person with the senior rank to hold that position.

20 I did not mind. I just know that one would have to come at a

21 certain point in time to read it and sign it. He had no other choice,

22 because the security department of the cabinet of the Federal Secretary in

23 Belgrade had to get these documents in time and then he signed all the

24 other documents that were sent in after that.

25 Q. Thank you. I think we've clarified things now. Yesterday, in

Page 15590

1 response to Mr. Lukic's question, you spoke about a report of yours about

2 the wrong use of the military police in the Vukovar theatre of war. Since

3 we are talking about the military police, I would like to ask you to

4 explain something to us. You are certainly aware of the rules of service

5 of the security organs and of the armed forces of the SFRY, so could you

6 please explain the following to us: Actually, the military police --

7 well, this is Exhibit 435 that I'm dealing with.

8 Can we please have this document on the screen, Article 13,

9 although I think that everyone knows about it. We've read it several

10 times. I think the witness knows, too, because he's an officer. I would

11 like to read this out to him to know what this is all about.

12 The military police from a professional point of view is

13 controlled by the officer in charge and that's the unit to whose

14 composition that unit of the military police belongs or is attached to

15 that unit, he proposes the use of military police and is responsible for

16 the combat readiness of units of the military police and carrying out

17 tasks.

18 A similar provision is contained in the rules of service of the

19 security organs, Exhibit 107 here, Article 23.

20 Tell me, please, Mr. Karan, what is this role of the security

21 organs, making it responsible for carrying out tasks of the military

22 police. What does that represent?

23 A. The security organ, when he receives a task from the commander,

24 from a certain point of view, it depends on the actual unit involved. So

25 if we are talking about the Guards Brigade, then it is a special unit.

Page 15591

1 But also there are other structures. There is the chain of command and

2 the chain of command and control of the military police that is somewhat

3 different. The security organ is certainly responsible for combat

4 readiness, the morale in that unit, and also for its complement, its

5 professional training because they are in charge of checking new persons

6 who are supposed to join the unit. So from every point of view, that

7 person is responsible to the commander of the unit for the state of the

8 unit.

9 But the security organ is not the commander of the military police

10 unit, because then the military police would not have a commander of its

11 own: A squad leader, a platoon leader and the like. So from a certain

12 point of view, it can be considered as an advisory organ of the commander

13 and from another point of view, a professional organ making the unit

14 capable of thoroughly, professionally, in a planned manner, and in a legal

15 manner carry out every task.

16 Q. Does that mean that the security organ is responsible for the unit

17 acting legally and in a planned fashion when carrying out its assignment

18 given to it through the regular chain of command?

19 A. If we are talking about the Guards Brigade, the commander of the

20 military police is the most responsible for that, because what you are

21 looking at here is practically the dual role of the security organ as an

22 advisory organ to the commander, professionally, that is, and as the

23 person that is responsible for the state of the unit.

24 However, the unit would not have a commander if the security organ

25 would be doing all of that, then it would be unnecessary to pay so many

Page 15592

1 people who held different posts. It would be superfluous.

2 Q. It seems to me that in this legal provision - correct me if I am

3 wrong - it says that the commander commands the military police unit but

4 as far as the legality of its use, it is the security organ that is in

5 charge of that and that the security organ is duty-bound to make sure that

6 the unit acts in accordance with carrying out the task and in a legal way?

7 A. The security organ is duty-bound that every policeman should know

8 what the remit of his work is and that he should know that he's acting in

9 a lawful manner. The security organ can have some responsibility if a

10 member of the military police acts in contravention of the rules.

11 However, if a policeman commits a criminal offence then he will be held

12 responsible, not his security organ. So that is what the situation is

13 professionally.

14 It would be the commander of the company or the platoon that would

15 be held responsible if a member of the military police would act in that

16 way. And then only perhaps the security organ or -- rather than the unit

17 commander.

18 Q. Can you explain paragraph 2 now of this Article that says: "Being

19 in charge of the --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they do not have the

21 text.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. -- has the same rights and duties that the officers of the arms

24 and services have and the institutions within the arms and services."

25 What are these powers in relation to the military police unit?

Page 15593

1 A. In terms of training, in terms of assessing members of the

2 military police unit, because members of the military police and their

3 officers are assessed, then rewarding them for their work and the like.

4 Now, I don't know what else I could say.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would just like to ask for one more

6 thing. Exhibit 107 on the screens, could we please have it, and

7 Article 23. Page 18, Article 23. In paragraph 3 of Article 23 it says --

8 A. I do not see it. I do not see it.

9 Q. I beg your pardon. We need page 18. Yes.

10 Can you see it, Mr. Karan?

11 A. Yes, I see it.

12 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 3 of Article 23 says: "The engagement of

13 units or individual members of the military police, in carrying out tasks

14 from the remit of the" --

15 A. Something has moved. I cannot see Article 23.

16 Q. Could we please have the previous page on the screen again,

17 page 18.

18 A. Now I can see it.

19 Q. Thank you. I will repeat. "The engagement of units or individual

20 members of the military police in carrying out tasks from the remit of the

21 security organs is set or determined by the officer of the security organ

22 from paragraph 1 of this Article with the agreement of the superior

23 military officer."

24 I'm interested in the following: Does this refer to all the tasks

25 that security organs carry out, both as the protagonists of certain tasks,

Page 15594

1 and other tasks in which they participate along with others?

2 A. This paragraph, paragraph 3 of Article 23 speaks of the special

3 situations in which the security organ and the military police unit may

4 be. It states in general terms that, for example, if a terrorist group

5 were to penetrate a certain area, then individual members of the military

6 police would practically be engaged in carrying out tasks that belong to

7 our remit. Certainly, the second part -- I mean it is not the whole unit

8 of the military police that would be involved. The company commander or

9 any commander of any unit that is engaged would know a lot more of the

10 counter-intelligence elements in terms of what should be done and how the

11 task should be carried out than the soldiers carrying it out would know.

12 That is the essence of this Article -- or, rather, the paragraph that I

13 was referring to from that Article.

14 Q. Just one more question. I believe it's time for the break. I

15 think that we've actually gone beyond the usual time and you're probably

16 tired too.

17 Did I understand you correctly: This has to do with the task that

18 the military police is carrying out within the remit of security organs?

19 A. Of course.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answers.

21 Your Honours, I think it is now time for our break.

22 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at ten past 4.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

Page 15595

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Karan.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. Let us pick up where we left off. I have one more question

5 regarding the rules of service of the security organ and then I will move

6 on to a different topic.

7 So again, we have the same exhibit, 107, but the page that I'm

8 interested in, or, rather, the article is Article 6 on page 11 stipulating

9 the tasks of the organ, the security organ.

10 A. I can't see it -- I can see it now.

11 Q. Thank you very much. What I'm interested in is the task listed

12 in -- under B where it says that: "The security organs are responsible

13 for the detection and prevention of hostile activities by individuals,

14 groups, or organisations against the armed forces and members of the armed

15 forces while JNA security organs also deal with activities against

16 organisations for NVO."

17 A. Weapons and military equipment.

18 Q. "And persons employed in these organisations which are aimed at

19 subverting or disrupting the social order established by the constitution

20 of the SFRY and threatening the country's security, and also threatening

21 the armed forces or breaching the secrecy of the plans and preparations of

22 the armed forces for the country's defence."

23 What I want to know is whether in fact the persons that are

24 mentioned here are in fact armed insurgents or rebels who are threatening

25 the social order and the integrity of what was then the SFRY? As

Page 15596

1 stipulated in the constitution.

2 A. Yes, you could say that.

3 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to move on to a totally different

4 topic, and it has to do what you said to my learned colleague, Mr. Lukic,

5 yesterday regarding the tasks of the security section in the Guards

6 Brigade when you yourself joined it in the Vukovar sector. You said

7 yesterday that this section was not superior to the security sections in

8 other units that were part of the OG South. Did I understand you

9 correctly?

10 A. No, you did not, because the security section existed only in the

11 Guards Brigade and the security section doesn't have to exist in the

12 Territorial Defence, and I think that the Motorised Brigade that arrived

13 from Kragujevac to join -- or in fact it arrived in the combat zone, it

14 did not have the security section. Only the Guards Brigade had the

15 security section of all the brigades in the former JNA.

16 Q. So now it's clearer, the security section was thus established

17 only in the Guards Brigade and in the units -- higher level units, corps

18 and above, army and so on?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And at the army level, there was the security department?

21 A. In strategic formations, I mean army, the ground forces, air force

22 and anti-aircraft defence and navy.

23 Q. Thank you. In a situation like this, the security section of the

24 Guards Brigade was not superior to the security organs in the units that

25 were part of the OG South. This is what you say. Did I understand it

Page 15597

1 correctly?

2 A. Yes. It was not superior to them.

3 Q. Can you tell us, then, who carried out counter-intelligence

4 control and professional tasks and management of the security organs in

5 the units that were part of OG South which were not part of the Guards

6 Brigade then?

7 A. I explained yesterday that the 80th Kragujevac Brigade had as its

8 superior security organ the security organ in the corps in Kragujevac.

9 Q. That would be the 24th Corps.

10 A. Yes, the Kragujevac Corps.

11 Q. What about the other units?

12 A. As for the TO staff, the only superior command could have been the

13 1st Military District, one of the organs there, elements there.

14 Q. Was the 24th Corps the superior command for the 20th Partisan

15 Brigade?

16 A. I can't remember where the 20th Partisan Brigade came from.

17 Q. That brigade came from Pozarevac and it was replaced by the

18 80th Motorised Brigade in the Vukovar sector.

19 A. I cannot say with any certainty anything about the chain of

20 command for that brigade. I don't know whether it was part of the Danube

21 division. In this case, it could have been under the Novi Sad Corps. And

22 if it belonged to some other structure, then it surely would have been the

23 1st Military District. So the second level of superiority here would be

24 the 1st Military District, but I'm not sure.

25 Q. What I'm interested in is in fact something completely different.

Page 15598

1 In light of your answers, if the 24th Corps then was superior -- or,

2 rather, if the security section of the 24th Corps was superior to the

3 security organ in the 80th Motorised Brigade and if it received its

4 reports from them, once those reports were processed, who did the

5 24th Corps forward those reports to about the activities of the

6 80th Brigade in the Vukovar sector?

7 A. The security department of the 1st Military District.

8 Q. The security organ of the Territorial Defence staff sent its

9 reports probably, as you indicated, to the security department of the

10 1st Military District. Can we then agree that for this territory that is

11 covered by these units, the security department of the 1st Military

12 District would be the department that would put together all the

13 information and provide professional guidance for all the security organs

14 in this territory?

15 A. Yes. Of all of the security organs apart from the security organs

16 in the Guards Brigade, you could say that. And that's how, in practice,

17 it worked.

18 Q. You said that as the security section of the Guards Motorised

19 Brigade, that you sent your reports directly to the assistant to the chief

20 of the cabinet of the Federal Secretary for intelligence?

21 A. Security, not intelligence.

22 Q. Security. I do apologise.

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Does that mean that all the information from the Vukovar area from

25 all the units that were stationed there, including the Guards Brigade,

Page 15599

1 were put together for the first time at the level of the 1st Department of

2 the security administration that received the reports both from the

3 1st Military District, their security department, and from the assistant

4 to the chief of the cabinet of the SSNO for security?

5 A. Yes, this is putting it very precisely, that's how it was. That's

6 correct.

7 Q. So the operational department of the security administration had

8 an overview of the situation on the basis of the reports it received from

9 the overall territory where combat activities were taking place in

10 Vukovar?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Thank you. In light of what you said yesterday about your arrival

13 in this area and the fact that at one point you were visited by the

14 representatives of the security department of the 24th Corps to inquire

15 about the situation in the field where the 80th Motorised Brigade was to

16 be deployed, this brigade was subordinate to them. You told us yesterday

17 that you had given them all the necessary information. You gave this

18 information to Lieutenant-Colonel Petrovic, if I remember it correctly?

19 A. Yes. Lieutenant-Colonel Zika Petrovic whom I knew from before

20 from Bijeljina, and there was another officer there.

21 Q. Does the name Colonel or Lieutenant-Colonel Jevtic mean anything

22 to you?

23 A. No, I'm not sure about that name.

24 Q. Then you said that you were visited by the security chief of the

25 80th Brigade once it was already deployed in the Vukovar sector, and you

Page 15600

1 said that you had spoken, if I have it correct, if I understood it

2 correctly, about any future assistant -- assistance. Perhaps you can

3 correct me on this. What did you talk with about with this assistant for

4 security matters?

5 A. Well, roughly what you said. There was no need for us to describe

6 the situation in the field in any detail. We simply agreed that, if

7 necessary, and it was up to the personal assessment of every person for

8 their respective zones that, if necessary, we would exchange information,

9 we would be in touch and so on, to that effect. Nothing was put in

10 writing or anything else.

11 Q. You told us yesterday that he had not sent any reports to you or

12 to your section and that he had not attended the briefings regularly and

13 that he had not talked to any of the officers in your section at all.

14 A. No, I didn't say that he hadn't attended the briefings regularly.

15 He had not attended the briefings at all. There was no need for him to,

16 and we did not invite him. And he himself knew that he would not be

17 authorised to attend those briefings at all. I met with him two to three

18 times, not more than that, and I don't recall that we had exchanged any

19 information that would be of any importance, either for the professional

20 control or command in the brigade.

21 Q. Thank you. And what would you say if I were to put to you that we

22 heard evidence in this court that the security organ of the 80th Motorised

23 Brigade had come to give reports to you as the representative of a

24 superior command. Is that true?

25 A. I don't recall any such briefings taking place.

Page 15601

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is page 8697 and

2 8698. That's the evidence that I just referred to.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Again, if I were to tell you that we heard

4 evidence here that the chief of the security organ in the 80th Brigade

5 would come on a regular basis every day to give his reports, would you say

6 that this was true?

7 A. No, it was out of the question. There were no daily visits, daily

8 briefings, daily reports. I have to deny such allegations as untrue.

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The reference for this evidence is

10 page 8653.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Karan, tell me now, please, do

12 you remember -- let us go back to what happened on the 18th, 19th

13 and 20th. Do you remember when Vesna Bosanac was brought to Negoslavci?

14 Did you see that?

15 A. No. I did not see Vesna Bosanac from that moment when I was given

16 the task -- or, rather, when at my proposal, Sljivancanin gave the

17 proposal that the money be taken to our premises and that a commission

18 establish how much money there was there. I didn't see her after that

19 until the next day in the hospital. That was the 20th, early in the

20 morning.

21 Q. Do you know how she came to Vukovar on the next day on the 20th,

22 as you had put it? Who took her there and on whose orders and how?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Can you tell us when you came to the hospital, where did you see

25 Mrs. Bosanac? Roughly what time was it and who was she with?

Page 15602

1 A. Are you talking about the 20th?

2 Q. Yes. I mean when you saw her again on the 20th of November.

3 A. She was in the same room where I had been with her on the previous

4 day. I cannot recall whether -- well, there were several persons there,

5 but I cannot be sure now and say -- well, I know Dr. Njavro was moving

6 around, if I can put it that way, but as far as other persons are

7 concerned, I cannot say anything with any certainty as I can for

8 Dr. Njavro.

9 Ante Aric may have been there but I'm not sure about that. Maybe.

10 Q. Can you tell me approximately what time this could have been when

11 you came to that room and when you saw her?

12 A. Say 8.30, 9.00. Look, I have not given this any thought over the

13 past 15 years.

14 Q. We agree.

15 A. Assume it was early, early. Say 8.30. I cannot say exactly.

16 Q. Perhaps I should phrase my question this way: Was it before the

17 meeting that you heard about, the meeting with the medical staff, before

18 or after that?

19 A. After that. I then heard that she had been replaced, that a new

20 director was appointed, but it really wasn't something that I was dealing

21 with then.

22 Q. I'm going to digress a bit now and ask you whether you know or

23 whether you remember where Marin Vidic slept the night between the 19th

24 and 20th of November, I mean if he slept at all, where was it that he

25 slept?

Page 15603

1 A. Well, after having been with us, and after our superiors came and

2 left, Marin Vidic was taken over by the team of crime technicians who were

3 supposed to talk to him, to interview him. I don't know where he was

4 taken, whether he -- whether he slept that night at all and, if so, where

5 it was that he slept.

6 Q. When was the next time you saw him?

7 A. The next time I saw him was in the second combat armoured vehicle

8 in the convoy that had been established to move on to Sremska Mitrovica.

9 Q. Thank you. Tell me, was Vesna Bosanac still in the hospital when

10 you left?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Have you ever heard of Vesna Bosanac, Dr. Njavro, and Marin Vidic,

13 Bili, being in the barracks on the 20th of November, 1991, or is that

14 something that you don't know about?

15 A. I do not know about that. Given this time distance, I have heard

16 about it, but at that time I had no idea.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us when you saw Vesna Bosanac, Dr. Njavro

18 and Marin Vidic arriving in Negoslavci on the 20th of November, 1991?

19 A. I'll tell you very precisely. I did not see when they arrived and

20 how they arrived. I just found them in this convoy, this column, that had

21 been established, if we consider three or more military vehicles to be a

22 convoy or a column. So that's when I saw them in Negoslavci on the 20th,

23 if I don't take into account that fact that I saw Vesna Bosanac and

24 Dr. Njavro in the morning.

25 Q. Do you know on whose orders they were brought to Negoslavci then?

Page 15604

1 A. You mean --

2 Q. That convoy?

3 A. Of course. In the room that Vesna Bosanac called the Crisis

4 Staff, that is where I was given the assignment. That is where I was

5 given the assignment to go to Negoslavci and to establish this convoy

6 because they would be taken to Mitrovica, Marin Vidic, Bili, and

7 Dr. Bosanac, that is. The order was given by Major Sljivancanin.

8 Q. Tell me now, what time was it when you saw this convoy that had

9 been established and these persons in the convoy?

10 A. Well, I told you. It could have been 8.00 in the evening, it

11 could have been 9.00, it could have been a bit earlier, but I assume that

12 roughly it's around that time because it was quite dark.

13 Q. If I tell you that it was sometime around 11.00, and that it was

14 quite dark, because in November, night falls at 5.00, would you agree with

15 me? Because we heard some evidence here, the reference is page 695, that

16 Mrs. Bosanac at 10.00 in the evening, on the 20th of November, was

17 interrogated in the barracks in Vukovar, and she could not be in

18 Negoslavci in the convoy.

19 A. No. No. I think that is incorrect, because I know when I arrived

20 in Bijeljina, and I know how much time I need for that, given all the loss

21 of time in Mitrovica, half an hour, 40 minutes, when we were driving

22 around. It could not have been 10.00 in the evening. It could have been

23 earlier and it had to have been earlier. It certainly was earlier,

24 because in that case I would have arrived in Mitrovica around midnight and

25 I think it was earlier than that, for sure.

Page 15605

1 Q. Can you tell us, if you remember, what road did you take to

2 Mitrovica, this convoy? Did you take the direct road or did you go

3 somewhere else?

4 A. The shortest road via the village of Berak, the auto route to

5 Sremska Mitrovica.

6 Q. I'm asking you about this because we heard testimony here that

7 this column went via Belgrade to Sremska Mitrovica. The page reference

8 is 1557.

9 Do you have any knowledge about that that the column first arrived

10 in Belgrade, in Dedinje, and then went on to Mitrovica.

11 A. No, that is not correct. I assert with full responsibility that

12 there was no need first and foremost to go to Belgrade. And secondly, the

13 task was clear and simple: Take the people from Negoslavci to Mitrovica.

14 I would not have dared and the head of the column would not have dared to

15 change that order. We certainly did not change it; we just carried it

16 out.

17 Q. If you went straight to Sremska Mitrovica and if you did not stop

18 anywhere en route, could you have arrived at Mitrovica at 4.00 in the

19 morning and was that the reason why the guards protested? The page

20 reference is 1557. That that was why the guards complained because people

21 were brought in at the crack of dawn?

22 A. That is quite untrue. Because by then I was already asleep at

23 home in Bijeljina.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Karan, tell me, these APCs that were

25 escorting you, did they escort you to Sid or further on outside the

Page 15606

1 territory of combat activity?

2 A. No. The military police vehicle of the Puch make where the late

3 Captain Bozic was, Mile Bozic, and the two armoured vehicles went

4 separate -- when a separate way. Since I know Mitrovica, I went to Kuzmin

5 and then further on to Bijeljina.

6 Q. Now I'd like to ask you something about Marin Vidic. Do you know

7 where Marin Vidic was brought from to Negoslavci on the 19th of November,

8 1991, and at what time this happened, if you remember?

9 A. Well, I saw Marin Vidic and I saw him and I spent some time with

10 him in the office of the Crisis Staff in the hospital. Then I went

11 further on about my own work. I did not see him after that until he came

12 to the security division premises in the evening, 2100 hours, 2200 hours,

13 I don't know exactly, but it was quite late. It was after our briefing

14 which was, say, around 2000 hours, as usual. I think that he was brought

15 to us about an hour and a half after that because I know that the generals

16 came approximately after 2200 hours; they came to our premises.

17 Q. Can you tell us who gave the order to have Marin Vidic brought in

18 and, if you remember, who brought him?

19 A. I do not know directly who brought him in. I was doing something.

20 I can just assume who issued the order to have him brought in there, but I

21 don't know how relevant this kind of assumption can be by way of a proper

22 answer.

23 Q. Assumptions are not relevant, so let's move on.

24 I'll ask you the following: Who was the first person to talk to

25 Marin Vidic?

Page 15607

1 A. You mean in the premises of the security organs or somewhere else?

2 Q. I mean the security organs premises where he was brought?

3 A. Yet again I'm telling you; I spoke about it yesterday as well. It

4 wasn't a classical interview in the sense of: Sir, your name, surname,

5 your father's name, your mother's name. It wasn't that kind of interview.

6 We started communicating. As a matter of fact, I could say that he was

7 the one who took over from us and he created this atmosphere of a relaxed

8 approach which - I can say that to you - actually suited us at the time.

9 There wasn't any kind of official relationship involved. There was no

10 brutality, there was no insults, let alone any kind of use of physical

11 force.

12 I could say that it was as if we were friends and say that we met

13 up. That's how it turned out. I don't know how come it turned out that

14 way. All of it is strange but that's the way it was, because he's

15 actually that kind of person. He knows how to find his own way in

16 difficult situations, and he probably thought that it would be easier for

17 him that way.

18 Q. I understand that. But my question is very formal. He was not

19 apprehended then, he was not arrested?

20 A. I don't know how he felt. But at that moment, that is not

21 something that he had been told. That was the least of all problems, to

22 tell him that, and what it would mean for him once he was there where he

23 was.

24 Now, does that really change things? If you say to someone: You

25 are arrested, now you are under arrest, or whether he was just brought to

Page 15608

1 our premises. What does that change in the situation that he is in?

2 Q. My question is as follows: Was he called in for an interview?

3 Was he arrested? If he was called in for an interview, was he called as a

4 political person or as a member of the defence staff of Vukovar?

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Objection, please.

6 JUDGE PARKER: We'll have the answer first.

7 A. He was brought in in order to conduct a form of an interview.

8 However, the situation was such that this interview was not actually

9 carried through. I told you yesterday that the way he presented himself,

10 as a political figure, as the commissioner of the Croatian government for

11 the area of Vukovar, to present his view on camera about the general

12 policy of the Republic of Croatia vis-a-vis the JNA, about Franjo Tudjman

13 in derogatory terms. We thought that that would have a propaganda effect

14 if it were to be broadcast in Serbia, on Serbian television.

15 However, when General Vasiljevic came, and Tumanov, our intention

16 was changed because of their position; namely, that this would have a

17 counter-effect. Because if the man is where he is, and if he is saying

18 things against his own president, against the policy that he had espoused

19 himself until then, until he was in the hospital when our army had taken

20 action, that would have been absurd, and it would not have made the kind

21 of point that we thought it would at first. We agreed to that. It was

22 poor assessment on my part and on the part of my colleagues.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Mr. Lukic.

24 JUDGE PARKER: The moment has passed.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] So I may continue, in other words.

Page 15609

1 Thank you.

2 Q. Mr. Karan, let us digress again. You keep talking about those

3 generals. General Tumanov and Vasiljevic, did they arrive together that

4 night or did they arrive separately?

5 A. If you mean whether -- how they went into our room, I can say that

6 they got in together because one of them got in immediately and the other

7 one was -- lingered there just outside the door, so they did get into our

8 room together. As to whether they got to the combat zone together, this

9 is not something that I could testify about. I think I've been quite

10 specific.

11 Q. Thank you. Do you remember in the period - now we're talking

12 about the 19th and the 20th of November - how many times was Marin Vidic

13 brought to the premises of the security section; in other words, to this

14 house where you were?

15 A. Of course I remember. So apart from that occasion on the evening

16 of the 19th, Marin Vidic never saw our premises again.

17 Q. If I were to put it to you that on the 20th of November at around

18 10.00 or 11.00 p.m., he was brought into your room, to your offices and

19 that he spoke to three captains, and that after that, he was put under

20 arrest and locked up in the basement and that he never left with the

21 convoy for Sremska Mitrovica, what would you say to that?

22 A. I would say that I -- that it would mean that I had gone with

23 Vesna Bosanac twice to Sremska Mitrovica, gone twice to Bijeljina, and

24 fetched the guitar twice and had problems with the locals twice, and all

25 that is not true.

Page 15610

1 Q. Thank you. And if I were tell you that we heard evidence in this

2 court that Mr. Marin Vidic had not been in the convoy with Mr. Njavro,

3 Ante Aric and Vesna Bosanac, what would you say to that?

4 A. That would be a patent lie because Marin Vidic, Bili, together

5 with Dr. Njavro, Vesna Bosanac and Ante Aric really was brought in the

6 night of the 20th to Sremska Mitrovica to the prison there. There is no

7 other truth but that.

8 Q. If we -- if I were to tell you that we heard testimony here that

9 after Vesna Bosanac had been taken from the barracks and after she had

10 been interviewed, that was at 10.00 p.m. on the 20th, that she had been

11 taken then to Sremska Mitrovica in a convoy and that when she was taken

12 out for the interview at 10.00, that Marin Vidic remained in the barracks

13 and that she first saw him in Zagreb after those events?

14 A. I don't know who testified what in this court, but I can say what

15 I did and I can describe how that went. So there is no other truth, apart

16 from the truth that I am telling here. I handed over four persons to the

17 prison in Sremska Mitrovica in a convoy that I described to you and then I

18 went to Bijeljina. So this is the whole truth and nothing but the truth

19 because I can't now -- I couldn't now describe to you what Vesna Bosanac

20 looked like when she was taken there because it wouldn't really be very

21 nice to be saying such things in front of Your Honours, and the persons

22 that were lying -- that lie there on the cold concrete.

23 Q. Reference for the evidence that I put to the witness is 1557

24 and 695.

25 It is not under debate that Vesna Bosanac was taken there that

Page 15611

1 night. What is debatable is that Marin Vidic, Bili, was on that convoy.

2 Are you certain that you saw him on that convoy?

3 A. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. I was given

4 this task to take this person and I carried out this task and I took those

5 four persons to the prison in Sremska Mitrovica on that day and the time,

6 the margin of error may be one hour here, one hour there. I have to

7 apologise for not being able to give you the exact time reference.

8 That would mean, in essence, that I failed to carry out an order

9 that I received from my superior and that I failed to report to him on

10 that. If I receive an order, there is no need to discuss it at all, and

11 this did not happen at any rate.

12 Q. Thank you. Please tell me just one more thing. After you left

13 with the convoy, you don't know whether the generals, Mr. Vasiljevic, and

14 Mr. Tumanov, the security generals, whether they came back to Negoslavci?

15 A. No. We actually stayed there with them as long as they wished.

16 It was not a long conversation. They were quite happy, and they left our

17 premises. I don't know where they went from there, and I was not told.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Karan, for all your answers. It really took a long

19 time but this completes my cross-examination.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

22 Mr. Borovic.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

24 Examination by Mr. Borovic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Karan.

Page 15612

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. Do you know who Captain Miroslav Radic is, and do you know about

3 Captain Miroslav Radic at all?

4 A. When I came to the combat zone, I was not aware of who he was, and

5 I think I only got to know about him when Vukovar fell. This is when I

6 actually was introduced to him, when the operations were in the final

7 stage.

8 Q. Thank you. When Mr. Lukic asked you some questions yesterday, you

9 said that you had spoken to Dr. Njavro and that on that occasion, you

10 asked him about your friend Dr. Radomir Dejanovic; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you please be so kind and to tell us more specifically what

13 you spoke about, what you know about Radomir Dejanovic, for the benefit of

14 the Chamber?

15 A. Yes, I will. When I spoke to Captain Simic, he showed me, he said

16 to me, This is Dr. Njavro. I think I ran after him to ask him, Doctor, do

17 you know Dr. Dejanovic? He said, Yes, I do. I asked him where he was.

18 He says, He is in Borovo Selo. And then I just told him he is a very good

19 friend of mine, a schoolmate, I went to school with him together in

20 Belgrade. I didn't specify the school. And that was our sum total of our

21 conversation with Dr. Dejanovic.

22 Q. Thank you. Was Radomir Dejanovic born in 1956 in the village of

23 Branjina, Beli Manastir?

24 A. I don't know. I know that he is the same age as I am because we

25 went to school. We were in the same class, and we were -- we underwent

Page 15613

1 the medical examination the same year for the military high school. I

2 don't know whether he was born in that village. I know where his father

3 was born. I know his father, Mihajlo, and I actually visited them and I

4 know that Mihajlo taught music in the village in the school in Bobota, and

5 I know that he played the tambura; it's a stringed instrument typical of

6 Kordun. I know that his mother worked in the Borovo shoe factory. I know

7 that his father together with his brother was from the village of Vera

8 near Vukovar, and that's where he built -- that actually they built a

9 house together in Bele Vode in Belgrade, that's a part of Belgrade, and

10 actually Radomir used this -- lived in that house when he studied first

11 the dentist school and then he changed schools. I know all about that

12 because we were friends.

13 Q. So he studied in Belgrade and he worked as a surgeon in Vukovar?

14 A. He knew about his desire to be a surgeon, which actually made him

15 leave the military academy after the first field exercise.

16 He actually tricked me. We were such good friends. As an

17 A student in military high school, I was supposed to study in the -- at

18 the technical academy in Zagreb. He was not such a good student as I was,

19 and he persuaded me, we were just two boys, he persuaded me that it would

20 be much better for us to go to the infantry military academy because he

21 said we would both become generals, and I thought that we would indeed

22 become generals, that it would be easy.

23 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the reference for all

24 this line of questioning is Exhibit 350, and the transcript at pages 1639

25 to 1640. And since the answer was much broader than I anticipated, the

Page 15614

1 further reference is 1678 to 1681.

2 There's an error in the transcript, it should read 1678 and 1681

3 [as interpreted]. The numbers are not correct. 1678, 1681.

4 Q. You mentioned Ante Aric. What was the first time that you saw him

5 in those days?

6 A. The first time I heard Ante Aric's name was when Dr. Vesna Bosanac

7 mentioned it when I encountered him in the room that she called Crisis

8 Staff. He was a youngish man, a handsome man. He had a six-day beard at

9 that time, but despite that, I would say that he was a handsome fellow.

10 Q. Thank you. Do you recall what kind of shoes he wore?

11 A. Yes. He wore yellow boots that we used to call Canadian boots

12 that were worn by the ZNG members. I actually told him that, and I

13 said -- I asked him, If you are a doctor, where did you get those boots?

14 And he took them off immediately and put on some shoes, ordinary shoes.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the reference for this

16 question is transcript at page 1535.

17 Q. Would you be so kind as to tell us, regarding what my colleague,

18 Mr. Vasic asked you, you came to Sremska Mitrovica with Captain Bozic and

19 you had brought Dr. Njavro there together with the others?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In this convoy, as you called it, was Captain Radic with you at

22 any time? I mean the convoy to Sremska Mitrovica.

23 A. No, never.

24 Q. Thank you. You were a captain first class. What kind of uniform

25 did you wear and where did you wear your rank insignia?

Page 15615

1 A. I had the uniform M-77; that was the type. I wore my rank

2 insignia, the four stars with the kind of a frame around them, on my

3 shoulder.

4 Q. And what would be the rank insignia for the captain?

5 A. Three stars. And captain first class would have four stars.

6 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] The reference for this evidence is

7 1634, lines 15 to 19.

8 Q. Finally, Mr. Karan, in the hospital, in the time when you were

9 there, did you hear or see Captain Radic participate in any way whatsoever

10 in the activities of the triage or any other activities that you

11 witnessed?

12 A. Let me tell you. I did not know that man at all, and when I look

13 at him now and when I think back of the time when I knew him then, no. My

14 answer is no.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no

16 further questions.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Borovic.

18 Mr. Moore.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Moore:

20 Q. Mr. Karan, can I just try and clarify your evidence, the totality

21 of your evidence in relation to the 20th. You went to the hospital

22 approximately between 6.00 and 7.00 in the morning; is that right?

23 A. Around 6.00. I said that I may have arrived around 7.00.

24 Q. You stayed at the hospital until about 11.00 in the morning, 10.00

25 in the morning, somewhere around there. Would that be right?

Page 15616

1 A. You could say that.

2 Q. You returned to Negoslavci, and you left Negoslavci, as you

3 recollect, between 7.00 and 8.00 in the evening; is that correct?

4 A. I don't follow. Could you please repeat.

5 Q. I'm asking you when you left Negoslavci on the evening of

6 the 20th.

7 A. Where was I supposed to leave from Negoslavci, to

8 Sremska Mitrovica, if that's what you mean. That may have been around

9 8.00, 9.00, 10.00, I really can't be specific about the time here because

10 if I had had the opportunity to talk about this with somebody, I may have

11 been able to remember, but I don't know. It was dark, and I arrived at

12 home at around 1.00, 2.00 a.m.

13 Q. So you left the hospital somewhere between 10.00 and 11.00 and you

14 returned to Negoslavci, and you left Negoslavci when it was dark, you

15 believe 8.00, 9.00, 10.00 in the evening, is that right, in general terms?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So in relation to the witness for whom you give evidence,

18 Mr. Sljivancanin, you are not able to assist the Court on any matter of

19 evidence between the time you leave the hospital and indeed until you

20 leave at Negoslavci. So between 10.00 and 11.00 in the morning until

21 8.00, 9.00, 10.00 in the evening, you are not able to give evidence in

22 relation to that time in respect of Mr. Sljivancanin. That is right,

23 isn't it?

24 A. When I left the hospital, I don't know what he did after that, and

25 I really did not see him until my return from Bijeljina.

Page 15617

1 Q. So it's even further. So from leaving the hospital at 10.00

2 or 11.00 in the morning of the 20th, you can give no evidence of

3 assistance to this Court in respect of Mr. Sljivancanin after that time.

4 Is that correct?

5 A. I don't know whether I'm assisting you with what I have said, and

6 I see no reason why you claim that I can't assist you. I told you -- I

7 answered any question anyone's asked me and I really maintain that, and I

8 don't know why now that you say that I cannot assist the Trial Chamber.

9 Q. I mean with regard to evidence, direct evidence with regard to

10 Mr. Sljivancanin. You left the hospital and that was the last time you

11 saw Mr. Sljivancanin. That is correct, isn't it?

12 A. Of course it is correct, but I cannot assist in this sense because

13 I don't know what Sljivancanin did at that time. I know what I did and

14 this is what I am talking about. Now whether this is enough for the Trial

15 Chamber or not, I don't know.

16 Q. You cannot say evidentially what happened in the Vukovar area

17 after you left the hospital that morning. That is right, isn't it? You

18 went to Negoslavci?

19 A. Correct. Correct.

20 Q. You cannot say what happened at the barracks. That is correct,

21 isn't it?

22 A. I can't say anything about any place where I was not. I can only

23 speak about the activities that I either carried out or witnessed or about

24 events that I myself witnessed.

25 Q. You can say nothing about a so-called government meeting. That is

Page 15618

1 correct, isn't it?

2 A. Of course I cannot, because I was not there.

3 Q. You can say nothing about a delivery of the prisoners or selection

4 of prisoners ending up at Ovcara. That is correct, isn't it?

5 A. I cannot, because I did not participate in the selection, as you

6 call it.

7 Q. Let's work on the basis that you leave -- by way of compromise I

8 will choose 9.00, not to catch you out, but just to try and find a common

9 time. Did you see any of your fellow colleagues from the security organ

10 at Negoslavci on the evening of the 20th?

11 A. At what time?

12 Q. Well, I said 9.00.

13 A. I said that when I had gone back to fetch Mr. Marin Vidic's

14 guitar, that I -- that I had encountered Srecko Borisavljevic there.

15 This, I can gather from his figure, his physical characteristics. That's

16 what stuck in my memory.

17 Q. So if we are talking about Bili Vidic, and we won't go into the

18 fact of whether somebody says he's there or he's not there, let's assume,

19 on your account, he is there, you would be going back to collect that

20 guitar a few moments before you set off for Sremska Mitrovica. That is

21 correct, isn't it?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Vukasinovic -- sorry, I will start again.

24 Is it Borisavljevic you said you saw or Vukasinovic you saw?

25 A. Mr. Vukasinovic is 35 centimetres taller than Mr. Borisavljevic,

Page 15619

1 and I would surely know -- I would surely be able to recognise Vukasinovic

2 or Sljivancanin because they were about the same height, and the only

3 person of that height was Captain Borisavljevic, and I remember that he

4 was sitting in a chair with his head bowed down, so that would be my final

5 answer.

6 Q. So Mr. Borisavljevic was in the accommodation of the security

7 organ where the security organ office was? Is that what you're saying?

8 A. Yes, precisely.

9 Q. And are you saying that you did not see any other member of the

10 security organ present in that house or that accommodation when you went

11 back?

12 A. No, I know that Captain Karanfilov and Staff Sergeant Momcilovic

13 had gone to Belgrade before I did during the day.

14 Now, as for Vukasinovic and Sljivancanin, I don't know where they

15 were, and when I came back to get the guitar, I found Captain

16 Borisavljevic there. I didn't talk to him because I did all that at a

17 run. I ran through this group of people who were insulting me and cursing

18 me because they had heard about him asking for the guitar, and it was

19 maybe 100 metres and it would take me about 15 to 20 seconds to run that

20 distance both ways. You have to bear in mind my age at that time.

21 Q. All I really want to know is did you see any other members of the

22 security organ apart from Borisavljevic. That's all I've asked. Is the

23 answer no?

24 A. Nobody else but Borisavljevic.

25 Q. Apparently Mr. Vidic wanted to play his guitar and you, in an act

Page 15620

1 of kindness, decided to provide him with a guitar; is that right?

2 A. No. No. I -- there was no act, whatsoever, no attacks of any

3 kind, I simply tried to comport myself in line with my duties as an

4 officer towards any person I came into contact with regardless of their

5 relationship with me. We, JNA officers, we were not aggressive, and we

6 abided strictly by the rules. Even when it came to our appearance, we had

7 to abide by the rules in that, too, and there was a high level of

8 discipline, in particular, in the Guards Brigade.

9 Q. I don't know what translation you got, but I wasn't talking about

10 attacks. I was merely saying that you provided to Mr. Vidic, as an act of

11 kindness, you provided a guitar. I wasn't suggesting that you attacked

12 him or attacked him with a guitar; merely as an act of kindness, you got a

13 guitar.

14 A. That's what I understood you, that you meant an act of kindness,

15 but the term that was used was an attack of kindness, but this is really

16 what I did. The interpretation was that I had this attack of kindness and

17 I thought that you were being sarcastic, that we actually acted

18 differently, that that's not what we did.

19 Q. No, I know it's late in the day, but I'm not suggesting you

20 attacked him with a guitar or anything like that. All I want to know is

21 that you got a guitar for him. Can we agree on that?

22 A. It was my understanding that you never said that I attacked him

23 with a guitar. It's just that the interpretation led me to react as if

24 this had been put sarcastically. I understood you properly, but the

25 interpretation was the way it was.

Page 15621

1 Q. Mr. Karan, I'm not a sarcastic person in any way at all, I want

2 that clearly understood.

3 Now, can we just, then, please, deal with one small point and it

4 is this: Was that the first time -- or perhaps a better way of putting

5 it. When was the last time you had seen Bili Vidic prior to meeting him

6 at Negoslavci?

7 A. The last time I saw him and spent some time with him was in the

8 office of Dr. Bosanac. The date was the 19th, before 3.00, 2.00, roughly,

9 in the afternoon. I cannot be very specific on that, but I know it was

10 after lunch sometime and that I was in a hurry because Mr. Sljivancanin

11 had asked for me, and then after that, I saw him in our office --

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. -- on the same day.

14 Q. Let us work on the hour of 9.00 again. Were you aware of any

15 comment being made at Negoslavci by a member of the security organ or any

16 other that in actual fact people had witnessed bad behaviour at both the

17 JNA barracks and Ovcara, bad behaviour towards people who were allegedly

18 going to be taken to Sremska Mitrovica?

19 A. No. Such information never reached me.

20 Q. Well, you were in Negoslavci, and Negoslavci is not exactly a

21 large place, is it?

22 A. Well, Negoslavci is a village, say, with a population of 400

23 to 500 [as interpreted]. Now, if that is small, then it's small. It's a

24 village, but it's a big village, if you consider that population to be

25 that of a big village.

Page 15622

1 Q. And it's right to say that the security organ offices were fairly

2 close to the command post. Would that be correct?

3 A. Well, continually speaking, it is nearly 400 metres, 500 metres,

4 up to 1 kilometre. Well, it's not that nearby if you have to walk.

5 Nearby if it's right next door or two to three houses away. It's not that

6 the command was right next door to us or two or three houses away.

7 Q. You travelled, I believe, last Friday on an airplane and it's

8 right, I think, that you travelled with Mr. Karanfilov. That is correct,

9 is it not?

10 A. Of course. Correct. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Are you in the same hotel or were you in the same

12 hotel as Mr. Karanfilov prior to today?

13 A. I did not choose my hotel. I did not choose the hotel at all. I

14 was brought there without any possibility of influencing anything. I was

15 just brought there. I was given a room, and I just went along with

16 everything that the Victims and Witnesses Unit people told me.

17 Q. I'm not suggesting anything to the contrary. Please don't see it

18 as some sort of conspiracy. All I want to know is you arrived on the same

19 plane, you came to a hotel, and you were in the same hotel as

20 Mr. Karanfilov; is that right? Is the answer yes?

21 A. Absolutely.

22 Q. Thank you. And would it be right to say that you've had dinner

23 with him?

24 A. Only when we came here, because we did not have dinner after that

25 again. It never crossed my mind to have dinner again at that hotel

Page 15623

1 because the food was so bad that we gave up on that altogether. We would

2 eat in the morning and then we wouldn't have anything to eat until the

3 next morning.

4 Q. Thank you very much. I'm sure that will be well received by the

5 hotel.

6 Now, let's just move on to different areas, if we may.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Before you do, Mr. Moore.

8 Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Pages 61, Your Honours, line 20, when

10 he asked for the population of Negoslavci, the witness said between 4 to

11 5.000, that is what I wanted to correct, because what is stated in the

12 transcript is incorrect.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 Mr. Moore, is that -- as you are interrupted, is that a convenient

15 time?

16 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, that's a very convenient time.

17 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at ten minutes to.

18 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Moore.

21 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.

22 Q. Mr. Karan, I'm going to see if I can finish this this evening. I

23 can't guarantee, I will, I'm going to try and cut things short. Let's see

24 if we can focus on certain topics.

25 When you came on Friday, had you spoken to the lawyers for

Page 15624

1 Mr. Sljivancanin about giving evidence?

2 A. Friday? No. But on Saturday briefly, about two hours, perhaps,

3 three. On Sunday, likewise. And on Monday, we just looked at some

4 documents.

5 Q. But had you spoken to the lawyers for Mr. Sljivancanin about your

6 evidence before Friday?

7 A. With Mr. Lukic, I saw him before coming to this court of law twice

8 during the course of this year, and a year and a half ago, he telephoned

9 me and asked me whether I would be prepared to be a Defence witness in

10 these proceedings, if necessary.

11 Q. Well, you've got the first inquiry whether you are prepared to be

12 a Defence witness. Did you ever attend the office of Mr. Lukic?

13 A. I went there during the course of this year. Once in spring-time,

14 and this summer; maybe it was July. That's when I went the second time.

15 Once he did call me, in all fairness, but because of my own work, I

16 couldn't come.

17 Q. What I want to know is quite simply this: You have an

18 introductory telephone call. You say that you went to his office; I think

19 you said spring-time. Did you meet Mr. Lukic on that occasion?

20 A. I don't know what the interpretation was, but what I said was that

21 a year and a half ago, if today is D-Day, I only spoke to him on the

22 telephone, and then I was not with Lukic. Then he only asked me whether I

23 wanted to be a Defence witness in these proceedings. So we saw each other

24 only this year, and that was the first time I saw what the man looked

25 like.

Page 15625

1 Q. Well, you're very fortunate in that respect. But having

2 ascertained what he looked like, can you tell us when you first met

3 Mr. Lukic, please, this year?

4 A. I told you a moment ago, this year, spring-time, and sometime in

5 June.

6 Q. I want to deal with spring-time, please. When you went and saw

7 Mr. Lukic, that was at his office. Is that correct or not?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And how long did you have an interview with Mr. Lukic for?

10 A. To be quite frank, I wasn't particularly willing to accept to be a

11 Defence witness. However, then quite simply what made me decide was when

12 I heard there were others who had responded, and then I thought, well I'm

13 no better than others and no worse either, so that's when I accepted.

14 And then it was an hour and a half or two that we talked, but more

15 time was taken up by this discussion as to whether I would or whether I

16 wouldn't.

17 Q. Did you tell Mr. Lukic your account? Another way of putting it is

18 your story.

19 A. As far as I can remember, he only asked me what kind of

20 relationship I had with Mr. Sljivancanin, whether I was close friends with

21 him, whether I had clashed with him and things like that, since he knew

22 that I was not in the Guards Brigade for a very long time, but he told me

23 that if their assessment was that it would be indispensable for me to

24 testify, then we would get in touch again with regard to my story.

25 Q. It was a simple question. I really do want to move on. Did you

Page 15626

1 tell Mr. Lukic the evidence that you could give so he could assess whether

2 it was indispensable or not?

3 A. No. That wasn't my understanding either. This is what they

4 explained to me, that if they saw that it would be necessary and

5 dispensable that then it could happen. In all fairness, I did say what it

6 was that I did, what my tasks were, and in principle, they knew some

7 details regarding my engagement because they already had certain

8 documents -- my documents, our documents, or my documents, the ones that I

9 had signed, so I was surprised how come they had original documents from

10 the security organs.

11 Q. I'll come back to spring. You said that you saw him a second time

12 in Belgrade. How long was that for? This year.

13 A. In July, this July. It was hot.

14 Q. Thank you. And how long did you see Mr. Lukic in July for?

15 A. Similar time period as the previous time, two hours perhaps.

16 Q. And the story that -- the account - so that there's no offence

17 taken - the account that you have given here, was that the same account

18 that you gave in spring and July?

19 A. No. No. I'm sure about that, because during my stay here in

20 The Hague I was able to recall some details. I think that it's not the

21 same story, although I have to say that I remember the events that I

22 participated in very well.

23 Q. You see, what happens when we are in trial is that when it comes

24 to the Defence, they provide to us, the Prosecution, and the Court an

25 account of the evidence that a witness will give, and we have an account

Page 15627

1 of the evidence that you were to give.

2 The first time we received anything was the 12th of July, not

3 criticising the date, I'm telling you that for convenience. I'm going to

4 read out what it was your evidence was going to contain.

5 "At the time of the Guards Motorised Brigade presence in the

6 Vukovar area, the witness," that's you, Mr. Karan, "was an officer of the

7 JNA in the rank of captain first class. The witness performed duties of

8 the security organ of the Guards Motorised Brigade."

9 Well, I suspect there is nothing too contentious in that. So you

10 agree that you are that. Yes?

11 A. [No interpretation].

12 Q. Second paragraph. "The witness will testify to the duties he

13 performed in Vukovar, duties of other officers of the security organs,

14 especially Veselin Sljivancanin."

15 Well, that seems to be what we have received. But that is right,

16 isn't it? That's what you have been doing.

17 A. I did not give any statements. I don't see anything in front of

18 me here, so I don't know how this was formulated, this document that you

19 are reading back to me. I never gave anyone any statements. I did not

20 give anyone anything in writing. That was based on my contacts with

21 Lukic. He may have made an Official Note of some sort, but I cannot say

22 how he drafted it, in what way. I don't have it here in front of me to

23 say that this was really what I said.

24 Q. I'm going to deal with it and then we'll deal with the minutiae.

25 "The witness will also testify to the correlations of the security organs

Page 15628

1 and military police and other military structures in Vukovar."

2 We needn't waste any time there.

3 "The witness will also testify to the correlation of security

4 organ of the Guards Motorised Brigade with the security administration and

5 cabinet of the Federal Secretariat of National Defence, SSNO."

6 And then: "The witness will describe the event at the Vukovar

7 Hospital on the 19th, 20th of November, as he has immediate knowledge of

8 those events and also to the contacts he had with hospital personnel."

9 Now, that is all we ever received. And you've given evidence, and

10 before you gave evidence we received what is called a proofing note which

11 was almost of biblical proportions which was five sheets of your account.

12 Now, I'm just curious how it is that you if you spoke to Mr. Lukic

13 about details, that they don't feature in a document that would reflect

14 what you had been saying to him, and I just want to practice an exercise

15 to see what's missing and what's not missing. So can you remember what

16 you told him?

17 A. I did not run away from anyone. I was contacted by you, I think

18 it was on the 22nd of October, but nobody interviewed me. I was told that

19 there was no need for me to come. I was summoned once again in the spring

20 of this year, and then again I was told that this would be postponed until

21 further notice and no further notice has been given, and I think that

22 these things that you just quoted to me are a general outline of the

23 things that I could testify about. After all, I don't know what is

24 relevant and what is irrelevant for this trial. I can only talk about

25 things that happened from the time when I arrived there until I departed,

Page 15629

1 and I cannot tell whether this is relevant or not.

2 Q. On the 4th of August, we got two additional paragraphs of about

3 eight lines each. Now, what I would like to know is this: Did Mr. Lukic

4 make a note of what you were saying to him when you saw him in Belgrade in

5 spring and July?

6 A. I can say that he did not do so while I was there. Now, as to

7 whether he did that once I left, that's not for me to say.

8 Q. Well, you spoke to him for what, four hours, you weren't aware if

9 he was making notes?

10 A. I don't know. I don't know what happened after I left, whether he

11 made any notes. I know that while I was there, he didn't make any notes.

12 Our meetings were -- well, if you're not interested in this, then I don't

13 have to go into those details. Do you want me to give you my answer?

14 Q. I'm extremely interested in it.

15 A. Our meetings took place in his office, and there we discussed some

16 details, some dates. I gave him a general outline, because I didn't know

17 that so much attention should be given to every little detail, to the

18 time-line, to every minute of the hour, because after 15 years, you have

19 to understand I'm able to remember some events, but I cannot say whether

20 they happened on the 18th, the 19th, or the 20th. But when you start

21 thinking about things, then you -- it all gels, it all comes together and

22 then you're able to remember all this.

23 So this was done in an informal atmosphere because I don't think

24 he was all that certain whether he would call me or not, or, rather, that

25 I would agree to testify or not. Later on ...

Page 15630

1 Q. I've almost finished on this topic but it's quite simply this:

2 Normally when a lawyer speaks to a potential witness, he will discuss it

3 and then he will read back or speak back to the witness what the lawyer

4 believes the witness has said to confirm the accuracy of the statement.

5 Was that done?

6 A. In what sense do you mean? I never sat down and drafted any

7 documents, written documents with him, either in his office or anywhere

8 else. We didn't write down any statement or any other kind of document

9 pertaining to these events. We just talked about some details, about some

10 dates, the events, and so on. So I did not sign anything. I did not give

11 any statements.

12 Q. But you would have no objection, would you, to releasing the notes

13 that were taken of your conversation with Mr. Lukic, would you, so that we

14 can see that you were saying in the spring and July? You would have no

15 objection to that, would you?

16 A. I would not, for sure, because I can see from following the trials

17 here that this is normal procedure, but this is not something that I have

18 participated in making. I did not draft any notes. I don't know whether

19 he, himself, made any notes subsequently.

20 Q. Well, I will speak to Mr. Lukic about that overnight.

21 But you say, for example, "following the trials here," what way

22 have you been following the trials?

23 A. The trials were broadcast over B92 channel. I followed some

24 trials, particularly the Slobodan Milosevic trial. The trials were

25 broadcast in Serbia for a while, but then the broadcasts stopped. The

Page 15631

1 broadcasts were live or maybe there was a half an hour -- half-hour delay,

2 I don't know that, but this is what I followed.

3 Q. We have heard that this trial have been followed by quite a few

4 people. I presume that you haven't followed it in any way. Would that be

5 right?

6 A. I have nowhere to see it. I can't do it today, and in the room

7 where I am, I don't have any TV channels that I understand, and this trial

8 is not broadcast on any of the TV channels that I can receive in my hotel.

9 Q. But weren't you watching it in Belgrade? Weren't you being told

10 what was being said?

11 A. Had I -- are you asking me if I called somebody in Belgrade to

12 inquire about this trial or if somebody called me from Belgrade to tell me

13 about this trial? Is this what you're asking me about?

14 Q. What I'm asking you about is whether in actual fact you have been

15 aware of the contents of this trial, in general.

16 A. No. The only thing is what one can read, a little piece of news

17 published in the press every 15 days or so about any adjournments of the

18 trial and so on.

19 I never followed this trial, and I don't think that it actually

20 was broadcast at all, because I would have probably followed it on TV.

21 Q. Well, we have heard Defence witnesses say that they had been

22 informed by friends of what had been said by witnesses. Had the same ever

23 occurred to you, or ever happened to you?

24 A. That did happen. This thing that I just told you referred to the

25 Defence case, the trial since the Defence case began, because the -- what

Page 15632

1 took place before that I was able to follow or somebody would recount some

2 details to me. I am a very busy man. Since my retirement, I have been

3 leaving home early and coming home late, and my main preoccupation at this

4 time is sports activities, so I didn't have enough time to follow the

5 proceedings in any detail.

6 Q. What I want to deal with now, then, moving on to a different

7 topic, it's quite simply this. The period around the 19th and 20th of

8 November. We have heard and we know the names of the members of the

9 security organ of whom you are one. Now, it's right there was a briefing,

10 was there not, on the evening of the 19th by Major Sljivancanin of his

11 colleagues from the security organ. Do you agree?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And who was present at that briefing?

14 A. Of course, yes.

15 Q. Yes, but who was present, please.

16 A. I was present at the meeting. There was Karanfilov, Vukasinovic

17 was there, too, and Momcilovic, Warrant Officer. And Srecko Borisavljevic

18 was not at the briefing or meeting because he was in the barracks at the

19 time, as far as I am able to recall.

20 Q. And we have heard evidence of what was discussed, so will you tell

21 us, please, from your recollection, what you say was discussed that

22 evening?

23 A. The meeting did not last long. The main task was -- or, rather,

24 the main objective of the meeting was the evacuation of the wounded from

25 the hospital scheduled to take place the next day.

Page 15633

1 Q. What was the task of Vukasinovic?

2 A. As far as I am able to recall, he was supposed to provide the

3 transportation from the hospital to the barracks, and then from the

4 barracks to Mitrovica. That was the task that was formulated for him.

5 Q. And who gave him that task, please.

6 A. That was the chief, Major Sljivancanin.

7 Q. What was the task of Karanfilov, please.

8 A. Captain Karanfilov and Warrant Officer Momcilovic were supposed to

9 go to the command post of the commander of the defence of the town of

10 Vukovar the next day and to check whether there was anything of interest

11 from the security point of view among the documents or any other items

12 that could be found there in the shelter.

13 Of course documents were supposed to be drafted about that -- or

14 this whole exercise should have been documented because it could be used

15 either for propaganda purposes or for us to learn what actually was there.

16 Q. And what was the task of Major Sljivancanin?

17 A. I only knew my task, not the Major's tasks. He may have had

18 another task apart from the task for the two of us to go there together.

19 If he had any other tasks, he didn't tell me about them. I knew that we

20 were supposed to go there together, and I knew what I was supposed to do.

21 Q. No, no. You would know what he was supposed to do because, if I

22 may respectfully disagree with you in the following way, the point of a

23 briefing is full discussion regarding the tasks that day and tasks for the

24 next day. That's right, isn't it? Isn't that the purpose of a briefing?

25 A. You are entirely right when you say that this is the purpose of

Page 15634

1 such briefings, but I thought we had the same task. He never told us,

2 This is my task, and then described it. That's how any military

3 organisation functions anywhere, and our military organisation is no

4 exception. He would distribute tasks to us and he himself knew what he

5 was supposed to do because he presumably received his tasks from his

6 superior organ at the headquarters, and in this regard we had no problems

7 functioning.

8 I cannot specify the -- any tasks that Major Sljivancanin may have

9 had apart from the task that involved the making sure that the security

10 was in place and that the evacuation of the wounded from the hospital

11 could proceed.

12 Q. But you must remember we have heard evidence, Prosecution and

13 Defence, in relation to Major Sljivancanin's role and function, and I

14 would suggest to you that it was known that he had had delegated to him

15 the task of organising the evacuation that had been given to him by

16 Mrksic. That's right, isn't it?

17 A. Sir, if you're talking about me when you say "you," it was not my

18 task to organise the evacuation but to make an assessment whether the

19 security conditions were proper to ensure the evacuation, the unimpeded

20 evacuation of the wounded and the sick from the hospital. I did not

21 organise the evacuation of the wounded and the sick from the hospital, and

22 given the conditions, I would not probably have accepted this task because

23 I was a counter-intelligence officer and I could only work and carry out

24 tasks within my remit in accordance with the rules of service.

25 Q. I'm not talking about you, Mr. Karan, I'm talking about

Page 15635

1 Mr. Sljivancanin. Mr. Sljivancanin was acting upon the orders of

2 Mr. Mrksic. That's what I'm talking about. I'm not suggesting you at

3 all. He is just carrying out the orders of Mr. Mrksic. That's what I'm

4 suggesting. Isn't that right?

5 A. If the order was to carry out the evacuation, then yes, but only

6 in terms of counter-intelligence to ensure that these conditions were in

7 place. That's how I understood it and that's what I think it was. Not as

8 the organiser or as the person who actually carries out, not to use

9 another term, it was not, I am the person who should be obeyed here and I

10 am here to tell you what to do. Because that's not how we did things,

11 then or before that in fact.

12 Q. But you've just told us that Vukasinovic was to organise the

13 transport from the hospital all the way to Sremska Mitrovica. You just

14 told us that not five minutes ago.

15 A. I agree with you completely, but that's just one of the activities

16 in a whole series of activities that had to be performed in order for the

17 whole task to be carried out. Of course Vukasinovic could not have got in

18 the buses, he had to get in touch with the person who had the buses, of

19 course he couldn't do that alone, and of course the security organ cannot

20 take upon itself the tasks performed by the military police in terms of

21 escorting somebody, and that's up to the military police to do those

22 things.

23 Q. Well, let's just look at the functions and tasks that were given

24 at that briefing. We have got Vukasinovic who is organising the

25 transport, or supervising the transport of the parties from the hospital

Page 15636

1 to Sremska Mitrovica. But you quite rightly say, well, he has to get

2 buses and he has to ensure that there are military police guards. That's

3 right, isn't it? Those are component parts of a plan. Isn't that right,

4 Mr. Karan?

5 A. Of course, yes, that's correct.

6 Q. And for the people to get on the bus, you have to have your

7 selection process of people that you deem to be appropriate. That's

8 right, isn't it?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And that task fell to yourself and Mr. Sljivancanin; isn't that

11 correct?

12 A. No. No. It's totally incorrect. Let me repeat once again. My

13 task was not to perform the triage, or the selection, which is the term

14 used here, but to create and to assess whether the doctors that had come

15 in from Novi Sad could carry out their task, which was the examination of

16 the wounded to determine who really was wounded or injured and so on. And

17 those who were not injured were, of course, not in that category and their

18 place was not in the hospital.

19 Q. Well, let's just assume what you say is correct. You are there as

20 a representative of the security organ ensuring that in actual fact the

21 doctors were able to do their task properly; namely, to choose people who,

22 as they perhaps perceived it to be, were faking injury. That is correct,

23 isn't it?

24 A. What you say is partially correct. They didn't know who was

25 wounded and who was not until they examined the persons showing signs of

Page 15637

1 wounds; in other words, dressings on -- bandages on hands, heads, arms,

2 legs, plaster cast. They couldn't know in advance who was wounded and who

3 was not, and those who did not have any external signs of being wounded,

4 it was quite clear that they were not wounded and there was no need for

5 them to be examined.

6 Q. Mr. Karan, I suspect that we will agree on this point that in

7 actual fact you are there with doctors to ascertain who is genuinely

8 injured and who is not. I mean, that's really what you're saying, isn't

9 it?

10 A. No, not me. Not at a single point in time was I the one who was

11 ascertaining who was injured and who is not. I just went through those

12 rooms and established whether there were any weapons there or not.

13 If I can put it that way, by way of an assessment, such weapons

14 could be a hindrance in examining the persons who were supposed to be

15 wounded or injured. I never walked up to a patient. I never touched any

16 person who was there or turned him around or whatever, because I'm not a

17 doctor.

18 Q. But the doctors are there at his request; isn't that right? You

19 knew they were going to be there. You were told, otherwise you wouldn't

20 know what your task is the next day.

21 A. Correct. Doctors were there to carry out their task. However,

22 when I passed through the halls, or, rather, these cellars, these shelters

23 where the wounded and the others were, with Jure Njavro and an ethnic Serb

24 who was a doctor, it was not to establish things like that. We were

25 supposed to walk around there and to ask whether they had any weapons in

Page 15638

1 those rooms.

2 Later on, I did not see the examinations carried out by the

3 doctors. I did not attend that and I cannot say anything about that.

4 Q. Then can you help me with this --

5 JUDGE PARKER: Can we interrupt, Mr. Moore, to hear Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] A few minutes ago, Mr. Moore asked the

8 witness whether he knew what Sljivancanin's task was. Now he put a

9 question again, whether the doctors were there at Sljivancanin's request.

10 I am not going to suggest anything, but I think that the witness gave a

11 very clear answer on page 73, line 21 onwards, and now I think that

12 Mr. Moore is revisiting the subject because he's not happy with the

13 answer.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Whether that's true or not, I don't think there's

15 any basis for interrupting what's being said, Mr. Lukic.

16 Yes, Mr. Moore.


18 Q. Now, let us take the situation where you are ensuring the

19 security, the doctors are trying to ascertain who is genuinely injured or

20 not. What happened to the person who the doctors assessed was faking

21 injury?

22 A. Again, I really don't know whether the interpretation is right and

23 whether this is actually what you asked me. But I am not providing any

24 kind of security, ensuring security; that is what the interpretation was.

25 Again, I repeat, my task was to go with Dr. Njavro and yet another

Page 15639

1 doctor --

2 Q. Mr. Karan. I don't know if it's the translation or not. The

3 question I asked was this: What happened to the person who was assessed

4 as being not genuinely injured? A person who is faking injury. What

5 happened to that person? Doctor comes along, has a look, No, you haven't

6 got a bad leg. What happened to that person? Tell us, please.

7 A. Now I understand the question. So I was not present during such

8 activities, when doctors carried out their examinations and established

9 whether somebody was injured or not because I left very soon after having

10 accomplished my task. I left the hospital. I went to Negoslavci. So I

11 was not present during the so-called triage in order to be able to say

12 specifically that I observed that and that I knew what the procedure was.

13 I can tell you on the basis of some things that I learned later on, but I

14 don't think that that would be relevant.

15 Q. Mr. Karan, this may shock you. I've been to that hospital and I

16 would suggest it is not a big place, so I'm simply asking you: When a

17 person was assessed as being -- or having a fake injury, what happened to

18 him? Because we have a situation of 260-odd people being taken out into

19 buses. So you must know how that happened.

20 A. I don't know what was done, but I do know how these persons were

21 treated, those who had not been wounded and who were males. Because a few

22 days before the fall of Vukovar, general mobilisation had been declared,

23 I already testified about that today, and I know that the persons who were

24 carrying out the triage had that in mind, and probably they acted in that

25 sense.

Page 15640

1 Q. Mr. Karan, might I politely suggest that you are avoiding the

2 question and that I am asking: How and what happened when a person was

3 being picked out as being an individual who faked injury, how did that

4 person get out of the hospital?

5 Now, there are two scenarios here. One, you had a briefing, which

6 I would suggest put together component parts of an evacuation; and the

7 second thing is that you had told us that you were there for the best part

8 of over three hours. Are you saying that you did not see what happened to

9 people who were being taken from the hospital through a three-hour period?

10 A. Again, I am telling you, I cannot say because I did not attend

11 such activities. Mr. Moore, I was not present during such activities so

12 that I could tell you with certainty what was done and how. I can just

13 tell you what it was that I did and I can be certain of that.

14 As for what you are asking me about, I was not present and I could

15 not give you a satisfactory answer for you.

16 Q. Well, what about Major Sljivancanin? He's a very distinctive man.

17 He's very tall. He's very loud. Didn't you see him in the hospital

18 through that three-hour period? He is not a person that an individual

19 terribly misses very easily. Not in 1991 he isn't. So what was he doing?

20 A. I agree with your statements that Major Sljivancanin is a very

21 distinctive man. But while I was doing what we were talking about just

22 now, the Major was elsewhere, and he had this meeting with Dr. Vesna

23 Bosanac and some other persons.

24 I saw him when I completed my own task. I saw him in

25 Dr. Bosanac's office and that is where I was told for the first time that

Page 15641

1 she was no longer the director of the hospital, but that somebody else had

2 been appointed.

3 Now what he did in the meantime ...

4 Q. Is this the meeting where he addressed the employees, or the

5 residents, the employees of the hospital? Is that what we are talking

6 about? When he announces what's going to happen to the doctors and the

7 medical staff. Is that what you're talking about when you see him or is

8 this another occasion?

9 A. No, Mr. Moore. I'm just saying that I knew that some kind of

10 meeting was supposed to be held in the hospital. As for the content of

11 the meeting, what was discussed there, and what was concluded at the

12 meeting, I really don't know about that. I know that one of the results

13 of that meeting was that she was no longer the director of the hospital.

14 Now what was discussed there and what was agreed upon there, I don't know,

15 because I did not attend the meeting.

16 Q. But is that the meeting that you're talking about when you say you

17 see Sljivancanin?

18 A. I saw him after that meeting. Well, I'm doing one thing, and he

19 went with this doctor who had arrived with us from Negoslavci to this

20 meeting with Dr. Bosanac and some other persons. I don't know how many of

21 them there were there. When I completed my task, somehow in the meantime

22 we came across each other. In her office, I found out that she was no

23 longer the director. The meeting was already over. Some conclusions were

24 made. Probably some tasks were agreed upon who would do what, but I did

25 not know what had actually been agreed upon at that meeting.

Page 15642

1 Q. You picked up two people on the way to the hospital on the morning

2 of the 20th, you've told us, isn't that right, one you've described on

3 various occasions as small, fat, and arrogant, Mr. Vujic. Do you

4 remember?

5 A. I remember that the person was arrogant and bald, kind of short,

6 but I don't remember having said fat. I don't remember having said that.

7 But -- anyway, I don't think I said that.

8 Q. The other person who was picked up, that person's name was Korica

9 who came with Vujic; do you remember that?

10 A. Yes. Yes. Korica was with us in the vehicle. He entered the

11 vehicle together with Vujic.

12 Q. And Korica has given evidence, and we needn't go into the detail

13 of it, about him eventually going into the hospital and accompanying

14 people out to a table that was there where individuals were then searched

15 and items removed from their pocket. Now, did you see Korica when you

16 were there through that three-hour period?

17 A. I didn't see Korica then at the moment when I saw Sljivancanin and

18 I don't know -- well, I knew that they were supposed to assist with the

19 triage, that is why they had been sent by the superior security organ.

20 But I did not see him and I don't remember, and, after all, there was

21 quite a bit of commotion there.

22 Q. So as far as we can see on your evidence, which you say is honest

23 evidence, you get there, Vukasinovic is involved in transport, Karanfilov

24 is on his way to a central area with Momcilovic, and you don't know what

25 Sljivancanin is doing at all. You see him twice through that three-hour

Page 15643

1 period. Is that correct?

2 A. I mean, now you are putting a question to me as if I were

3 Sljivancanin's superior. But --

4 Q. I'm not at all. I'm asking you to use your ordinary common sense

5 and your eyes. You were there for three hours. It is a small place. And

6 I'm asking you what Sljivancanin was doing. And we're going round in

7 circles. So are you able to help us on this topic or not?

8 A. I'm sorry if you gained the impression that I am trying to go

9 round in some circles. I'm telling you that Sljivancanin had this

10 meeting, and perhaps, given this time distance, it may seem to someone as

11 if this were simply moving along a line. There are people who are milling

12 about. There are quite a few doctors and I went to see some other doctors

13 in the meantime, to see whether there had been any abuse on the part of

14 the doctors, because I had found an object that could have been used for

15 such purposes.

16 So time went by, and I just informed him that there were no

17 weapons in the hospital and that this task could be carried through. At

18 that moment, say in a minute or two, or five minutes, I cannot remember

19 now, we spent some time there, and he said that I should get ready, and I

20 told you about all of that in detail concerning this transport to

21 Mitrovica. I am not trying to evade anything.

22 Q. So when you actually left the hospital, you knew presumably that

23 the task was to isolate individuals and take them to Sremska Mitrovica.

24 That is correct, isn't it?

25 A. Well, what's the point, then, of the guidance that we got? We

Page 15644

1 knew what the assessment was. We knew that a team was coming from

2 Belgrade, and we knew that they would be working along those lines in that

3 direction.

4 Q. I'll ask the question one more time and then I'll move on and let

5 the Court draw their own conclusion.

6 You knew that in actual fact that the task was to isolate

7 individuals and take them to Sremska Mitrovica. That is correct, isn't

8 it?

9 A. The task was to separate the wounded from the others, or the

10 others from the wounded and the patients. That is the core of this task.

11 It involves nothing else.

12 Q. And to take those people to Sremska Mitrovica.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And as you have told us about 15 minutes ago, you knew that buses

15 had to be obtained to take those people to Sremska Mitrovica. That's also

16 correct, isn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it's also right to say that you had an approximation of the

19 number of people who were being taken, because we know that five or six

20 buses were used. That's right, isn't it?

21 A. No, I did not know what the approximate number of people was.

22 Q. Are you saying, then, in your tasking -- or the task given to you

23 by Sljivancanin on the Friday -- or not Friday, the 19th, that there was

24 no indication of numbers of the people that they thought -- or he thought

25 might be inside the hospital that would be required to be taken to

Page 15645

1 Sremska Mitrovica?

2 A. We had some estimates as to how many people were put up there.

3 Or, rather, we did not know the exact number, whether it was 500, 600,

4 1.000, 1.500. We had received information to the effect that even between

5 2.000 to 3.000 people could have been at the hospital.

6 Q. No, we're not talking about the hospital, and I suggest you know

7 that perfectly well. We're talking about the people who were going to be

8 evacuated, the individuals being isolated that were going to be taken to

9 Sremska Mitrovica. The people that I will call, for convenience, the

10 Ovcara people. Now, didn't Sljivancanin give you an approximate figure?

11 A. I am telling you that these people at the hospital -- I mean, our

12 only task was these people in the hospital who were separated later on

13 from the wounded and from the injured, there were men, women, some

14 children there too. That is what I'm talking about. I don't know what

15 other people you are talking about.

16 Q. I'm talking about a briefing that indicated that there would be

17 various evacuations but there would be one specific evacuation, namely the

18 isolation, principally of men, who may be of interest to the security

19 organ, because at that time it was believed that many individuals in the

20 hospital were not genuine patients. Isn't that right? Weren't you told

21 that at the briefing?

22 A. Well, of course that -- we knew that the wounded were there and

23 the ill were there, and the injured, and indeed that there were other

24 people who were not medical staff, and that there were people there who

25 did not really belong in the hospital. We knew that earlier on. We knew

Page 15646

1 that beforehand, because we were getting documents telling us about that

2 by way of guidance, and through our own work, we came to learn of that.

3 Q. I'll deal with your work in due course. But I'm asking you: Were

4 you given an approximate figure of the people, the men, in reality, who

5 would be isolated, taken on buses to Sremska Mitrovica? And I would

6 suggest you know perfectly well what the question is.

7 A. My response is no, because we really didn't know that. Your

8 suggestion is probably based on an erroneous premise.

9 Q. Well, my suggestion is actually based upon an entry on a log, a

10 military log with a warning order on the 19th of November. The entry, I

11 believe, is 1800 hours suggesting that 200 people may be coming through

12 Ovcara, and those people were coming from the hospital. So there's a

13 figure of 200 people being mentioned 12 hours before you actually get

14 there. So somebody knew a figure. Do you see why I'm basing or what I'm

15 basing my premise upon?

16 A. I did not see any such document and I was not made aware of it. I

17 did not know that it actually existed. All I know and all I'm saying is

18 that this topic was not discussed at the briefing. We didn't know how

19 many of them there were. We had this estimate indicating that there were

20 between 1.500 to 2.000, even 2.500 people, and of course not all of them

21 were wounded or sick.

22 Q. So as far as you're concerned, you knew that there was a group of

23 males that were of interest to the security organ but you really didn't

24 have anything to do with them that morning but they were being isolated.

25 Would that be a fair analysis or not?

Page 15647

1 A. This analysis is completely wrong. All men above the age of 16

2 and below the age of 65 were, according to our assessment, potential

3 perpetrators of the criminal offence of armed rebellion because there had

4 been a general mobilisation in the days before the fall and of course this

5 would help to define the work of the people who had come from Belgrade,

6 but at the time we didn't know that.

7 Q. Well, then, what was used to pick out 250 people from one and a

8 half to two and a half thousand people. What was the criteria for their

9 selection?

10 A. I really don't know whether the figure is correct, because I did

11 not participate in that. I don't know anything about that. Now, as to

12 the criteria, I know even less.

13 Q. So as far as you are concerned, these two and a half thousand

14 people, you have no idea why 250 people - I use it as an approximate

15 figure - why 250 people are taken out and put on buses. In actual fat,

16 it's more than that. You didn't even know it was going to happen. Would

17 that be right?

18 A. In what sense do you mean what would happen? I don't understand

19 your question, its gist, its thrust.

20 Q. You have told us there's one and a half to two and a half thousand

21 people in the hospital, as you believe it. Yes?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Working, I hope, on a reasonable basis, 50 per cent will be male,

24 50 per cent will be female. Can we try and work on that basis?

25 A. I don't know whether this assumption is correct.

Page 15648

1 Q. There will be children there. Yes?

2 A. Not many. Not many.

3 Q. Thank you for that. But there will be, as far as you're

4 concerned, there was a general mobilisation of men, and therefore, every

5 man in that hospital was of potential interest; is that right?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. What I'm asking you: If we just work on the basis, whether it's

8 wrong or not, of let us say 1.000 men on -- or 750 to 1.000 men, I want to

9 know how 250 people were selected. How did they -- how did certain people

10 end up on the bus? Do you understand?

11 A. All men between the ages of 16 and 60 were treated the same way.

12 I see no reason for you to be bringing up this figure of 250 people when

13 they were all the same. There were probably Serbs among them because the

14 general mobilisation included the Serbs too. And all of them had the same

15 status, and to my thinking all of them should have ended up in

16 Sremska Mitrovica, and that's where, of course, all the necessary

17 procedures would be carried out to determine who was responsible for what.

18 And this is what the guidelines were actually for, the documents

19 containing the guidelines, because we thought that we would spend a longer

20 time in that area and that we would be able to gather some information

21 through intelligence work about the perpetrators of criminal offences.

22 And all those men between the ages of 16 and 60 were -- had participated

23 in the criminal offence of armed rebellion and by the very act of their

24 being mobilised, they were considered to be responsible of that. That's

25 what the law in force at the time prescribed.

Page 15649

1 Q. Well, thank you for that. I'm not really interested in what the

2 law was in force at the time. I'm merely asking you a factual analysis of

3 are you now saying that the 260 or 250 people -- men, with one exception,

4 who were put on the buses were the only men in that hospital?

5 A. I have to say again: I don't know what people you are talking

6 about, because I don't know how many people had been separated from the

7 wounded and the sick, and I cannot tell you what you want me to say.

8 I did not participate in that and I don't know about that. I

9 didn't know how many wounded and sick there were either.

10 Q. Did you see any men standing who were in the injured when you were

11 leaving the hospital?

12 A. Where, specifically?

13 Q. In the hospital. The place, do you remember, you were in for

14 three hours.

15 A. There were some medical staff. They were standing to the side as

16 I described, and there were also some other people there, quite a few

17 people. But it was not my task to carry out any triage or to process them

18 in any way.

19 Q. I will try and finish on this subject but I make no guarantee.

20 When you left the hospital, did you see any white International

21 Red Cross vehicles, ECMM vehicles? Did you see any medical staff arriving

22 who, as you have described as "foreigners"? Did you see any when you were

23 leaving?

24 A. Absolutely not.

25 Q. Did you see any buses with people in them waiting to be driven

Page 15650

1 away?

2 A. No, absolutely not. I didn't see any buses or any people.

3 You are now maybe asking me that because I had said this thing

4 about three hours, but all I can tell you is that it seemed to me at the

5 time that it took a long time, but it may have been shorter than what my

6 impression was, but I can tell you with certainty that I did not see any

7 foreign representatives or any buses there.

8 Q. So when you say three hours, you don't mean three hours; is that

9 right? You can't be sure.

10 A. Yes, I cannot be sure. It can be a bit less than that, but I

11 think you have to understand after all this time it is difficult for me to

12 give you an estimate as to how long it took.

13 Q. Does that apply to your other timing estimates?

14 A. Of course. It cannot apply to a time difference where the margin

15 of error would be 10 hours, 15 hours, but if it's 1 hour, 2 hour, plus or

16 minus, I think it's something that you have to understand.

17 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I'm sorry for taking slightly longer.

18 Would that be an appropriate moment?

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Moore.

20 We now adjourn and we resume at 2.15.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day of

23 November, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.