Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15883

1 Thursday, 7 December 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.

7 The affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence, of

8 course, Mr. Vuga, still applies.

9 Mr. Weiner, have you had a fresh breath?

10 MR. WEINER: Yes.


12 [The witness answered through interpreter]

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Weiner: [Continued]

14 Q. Good morning, sir.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. I'm just going to tell you where we left off yesterday and ask the

17 final the question and then we are all done, at least on this side of the

18 court. Yesterday, we discussed the various officers and soldiers in

19 Negoslavci, Vukovar, and Ovcara that were aware or had heard of the

20 disappearance of the prisoners and that they might have been murdered, and

21 some of them even were aware of the murders and participated in the

22 murders. And you stated at page 15880 that there was a certain circle of

23 persons among whom this circulated. That's 15880 in the transcript. Do

24 you recall your testimony that there was a certain circle?

25 The last question was: And that circle of discussion about these

Page 15884

1 murders and -- or disappearance reached Major Vukasinovic. Based on the

2 testimony, isn't that correct?

3 A. Based on what exactly was said about this circle of persons, well,

4 it's difficult to at the define them as a circle of persons, because that

5 would be quite specific in terms of the way they related to each other;

6 but, rather, the number of people involved because these people were in

7 different places. Therefore, I would be hard put to say it was a circle

8 of persons, but I do accept that it was a certain number of persons who,

9 while in touch a Major Vukasinovic, shared information with him that he

10 has spoken about.

11 I'm not saying that this information was not good information in

12 terms of what could be inferred based on such information. However, the

13 problem in my research was this: What became later of any information

14 obtained by Major Vukasinovic? That is the trail that I haven't found.

15 And for me, as a counter-intelligence man and someone who has spent a

16 great deal of my life gathering information, this indicated that some

17 information had gone missing somewhere or had been blocked somewhere. The

18 original sources, as they were, were impossible for me to reconstruct and

19 understand.

20 There are other references, two references specifically, where I

21 found a certain resistance, the resistance towards the environment by

22 formation units that were part of OG South. I would not like to detain

23 you on this, but such resistance indeed existed. It is my job to tell you

24 that. Just a piece of statistics from my experience, which will perhaps

25 help you understand why it my position was what it was.

Page 15885

1 I studied the security situation in the JNA from the point of view

2 of counter-intelligence and receiving early information received by any

3 operative officer. I did that throughout the JNA as the chief of an organ

4 for research. While doing that, I established the following, rather, my

5 results were the following: 67.5 percent of any first information, early

6 information, used later on for purposes of work would be erroneous. It

7 was bad information, poor information, or one jumped the gun too early and

8 went with that early information.

9 That is what led me to conclude that experience of mine that the

10 first report was not done properly, because the early information was

11 taken at face value. The problem is there is a person who receives this

12 with his own, reflects his abilities, problems, and so on and so forth,

13 let me not tell you this. So the first recipient of information in this

14 case did not meet certain criteria that I spoke about.

15 I thank you indeed for your patience but this is the answer coming

16 from an expert.

17 MR. WEINER: Excuse me, Your Honour.

18 No further questions. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Weiner.

20 Yes, Mr. Lukic.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

22 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vuga.

24 A. Good morning, Mr. Lukic.

25 Q. We'll try to tackle some topics raised by my colleagues.

Page 15886

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Can Mr. Lukic please speak

2 into the microphone, the interpreters can barely hear him.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. First of all, let me ask you a couple of questions stemming from

5 Mr. Domazet's questions two days ago.

6 Mr. Domazet put it to you -- leave that report be for the time

7 being, Mr. Vuga, just listen to my question; and as soon as necessary, we

8 will be going back to your report.

9 Mr. Domazet put it to you that in your report, you stated that a

10 decision was made at the government meeting on the 20th of November. He

11 asked you how you were able to ascertain that decision had been made and

12 based on which documents. This is at page 48, the draft version.

13 Let us look at your report, page 63 of the B/C/S, paragraph 10,

14 please. This is footnote 127 and 128.

15 A. I have that page.

16 Q. You say: "Commander Mrksic authorised Lieutenant-Colonel Panic to

17 give his consent for the surrender of POWs from the hospital."

18 In the last paragraph of this paragraph,"Miodrag, following

19 consent from the commander of" --

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the footnote that

21 Mr. Lukic read.

22 Q. -- You're not talking about any agreement from the government;

23 right?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters. I

Page 15887

1 will repeat the last portion that I read out in English. "Miodrag Panic

2 having received authorisation from the commander of OG South gave his

3 approval for the POWs from the hospital to be handed over to the

4 government of the SAO SBWS, so they might be tried for any crimes that

5 they committed in Vukovar."

6 Q. Mr. Vuga, based on your conclusions in your report, with regard to

7 these prisoners as far as the security aspect was concerned, what was the

8 decisive factor, the decision of the government or the consent of Colonel

9 Mrksic which he had granted through Lieutenant-Colonel Panic?

10 A. Based on what I'm looking at and also based on what can be gleaned

11 by looking at the documents, and if you look at the parties involved, it

12 is my conviction that the decisive factor was that the prisoners of war

13 were later found along an axis, which according to previous experience

14 with the Mitnica group, or later for that matter because there were none,

15 so if you ask me this was a water shed.

16 I can't say whether the one or the other was the decisive factor

17 but there was some sort of a water shed, a turning point. That at least

18 is my understanding. Decision, well, what is a decision? Formally

19 speaking, it's just a piece of paper, perhaps, in a legal sense. But it's

20 hardly something for me to address.

21 Q. If there was a government decision in any form or shape, do you

22 think that would have affected the army in terms of the army not granting

23 their approval for the prisoners of war to be handed over?

24 A. In my report, I did say that there was no subordination between

25 these two bodies. They were mutually independent. The army had no power

Page 15888

1 over that government and vice versa. That particular government had no

2 power over the army, and that, I suppose, answers your question.

3 Q. Very well. Another question that stems from Mr. Domazet's

4 questions. You told him about when, how, and why this was handed over by

5 the government; and then at page 58, you placed this in relation to the

6 barracks. I'll show you a page of your own report, which is page 66.

7 You state on that page that those persons were in actual fact part

8 of the security of the 80th Motorised Brigade, up until the time that this

9 was taken over by the TO and the 80th Motorised Brigade had already

10 withdrawn.

11 Mr. Vuga, based on the documents that you analyse and the witness

12 statements and everything else that was available to you, these TO

13 members, did they have any effective power, control over those people up

14 until the moment the security of the 80th Brigade withdrew from the area?

15 A. No, or at least they weren't supposed to have any power

16 whatsoever.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 Let's move on to something different, please. Again, something

19 that was raised by Mr. Domazet. He showed you the evidence of Mr. Panic

20 about the fact that purportedly Sljivancanin had been appointed to be in

21 charge of the hospital evacuation. He told you that Mr. Panic had said

22 that and that this was recorded in the transcript. Please leave that be,

23 just listen to me, sir.

24 You gave the answers that you gave. I will read to you what Mr.

25 Domazet had put to you as Panic's evidence. This is 14385. He says: "The

Page 15889

1 fact is Major Sljivancanin was given the task of selection, rather, than

2 not only selection and not only he but also his organs. Dr. Vesna

3 Bosanac, the hospital staff, organs from the security administration that

4 had arrived to separate the combatants from the non-combatants."

5 That's what Mr. Panic said on that page. There is another page of

6 the transcript that was put to you by Mr. Domazet, 14294 and 14295.

7 Panic says: "We asked him what his task was in relation to the

8 hospital evacuation, and he said he had a very serious task, a difficult

9 one alongside with the security organs of OG South and those who worked at

10 the hospital, the doctors, as well as those who had been discharged from

11 the hospital and who were familiar with the hospital, to separate the

12 wounded and the patients from the combatants with the assistance of Dr.

13 Bosanac and everybody else."

14 Once this has been read back to you, and this is something that

15 you invoke in one of your own footnotes, is that not consistent with the

16 conclusion in your report that you were never able to ascertain, with sure

17 and certain knowledge, that Sljivancanin was in charge of the hospital

18 evacuation?

19 A. This is entirely consistent with my own findings. There is one

20 thing that can be raised in relation to this though. I'm not sure of the

21 term that I used can be translated into language properly.

22 Q. Let me ask you a question about something that Mr. Weiner asked

23 you yesterday. He asked you something about whether Mr. Sljivancanin had

24 been carrying out tasks outside his purview, and then he put it to you

25 that he did things in relation to logistics and morale and artillery

Page 15890

1 guidance. I will be asking you further questions about that later.

2 What do you think -- this may be outside your own competence as a

3 counter-intelligence expert, but it does have to do with issues raised by

4 Mr. Weiner. Mr. Sljivancanin, as a member of command, a commander of a

5 brigade or an operations group, was he required to inform the commander of

6 anything that he noticed while touring a certain unit?

7 A. I retired several years ago, but I had previously spent a total of

8 40 years in the army that we are talking about. The entire idea of the

9 JNA rested on the idea of support to command and control by everyone

10 involved in this military organisation. As far as the support went, some

11 were extremely enthusiastic, some were a little less enthusiastic, and

12 some took no part in it at all. I did not assess Major Sljivancanin's

13 position inside this chain of support, but certainly what he did was not

14 contrary to anything that a JNA officer would have been expected to do.

15 It certainly wasn't contrary to anything that the JNA, as the official

16 armed forces of the SFRY, rested upon or was based upon.

17 Q. Did it run counter to anything that he did, that he often toured

18 the front line to look for missing soldiers or, indeed, to be in touch

19 with officers and soldiers along the front line?

20 A. When we speak about these things, first, you need to consider the

21 problems and then the place where these problems are. The security

22 problems were a -- the worst in a place of conflict where the sides were

23 clashing or somewhere else; hence, desertion, drops in morale, all other

24 subversive actions. This is all something about the front line. Whoever

25 has the courage to face these problems can go and face these problems or

Page 15891

1 remain at a safe distance.

2 Q. Would this be contrary to what a security organ would normally do?

3 A. I omitted this, because I wrote about this in my report. In my

4 report, I wrote that this was by no means contrary. You had to know where

5 the problem was, and you had to know about how doing to go about it.

6 Q. Yes, that is entirely true. You did note that in your report in

7 no uncertain terms. What about defeatism and spreading misinformation?

8 A. When I talked about the purview at the outset -- I'll have to go

9 back to this. I told you at the outset that we'd be talking about it over

10 and over again, because this really is the gist of everything. One thing

11 is certain though, anything that undermines the combat readiness of a unit

12 or its ability to carry out its tasks must be studied in order to be

13 forestalled and nipped in the bud. Defeatism grows into panic; and once

14 you have panic, the army is soon off the front line. This is a very

15 important task for security organs and for everybody else alike.

16 Q. There were a lot of questions and answers about artillery fire

17 correction. You are familiar with the facts related to that, aren't you?

18 My question is: If artillery fire is directed in a poor way, what can

19 possibly be the reasons, and what can a security organ have to do with

20 that? How can a security organ get involved?

21 A. I'd have to tell you something about something else that dates

22 back to 60 years ago. It's experience that is 60 years old. I'm talking

23 about shot, gunpowder. The epilogue was this: Whoever finds that

24 something is not right is merely the first link in a chain that a security

25 organ has to use to look for reasons, and this is also your answer.

Page 15892

1 Did one have to look for reasons at the time as to why we were

2 suffering losses from our own artillery. Was this gunpowder? If so,

3 then why? Was this something else? If so, then why? Okay. Here is

4 where a security organ steps in, because this is exactly the sort of

5 situation where you get a lot of underground subversive activity.

6 Q. Yesterday, at page 17 of the draft transcript, Mr. Weiner asked

7 you about these very things. And you said your job was to ascertain

8 whether Mr. Sljivancanin's role as a security officer was well within the

9 regulations, and you answered that question. I'll ask you: What is your

10 conclusion? Was it within the regulations or not?

11 A. At the beginning of my report, I indicated that I dealt with the

12 function. And everything else that was outside of the framework of the

13 function, I did not deal with them because I didn't believe that they

14 belonged in my expert report. I presented this function the way it was;

15 and in this function, I did not find anything that would be contrary to

16 the regulations.

17 The only thing one could discuss here would be to see whether the

18 regulations themselves are perfect or not, but there isn't such a thing as

19 perfect regulations.

20 Q. Thank you. Let me move on to another topic now that was touched

21 upon in the cross-examination when Mr. Weiner asked you about your

22 conclusions that you were unable to determine unequivocally whether

23 Sljivancanin had been appointed to command the evacuation of the hospital.

24 You said that yesterday at page 12.

25 He put to you the statement made by Mr. Panic, the statement he

Page 15893

1 gave to the OTP and some other statements that you have been familiar

2 with. But as indicated in your footnotes, you were also made aware of his

3 testimony and I actually showed you his testimony yesterday.

4 I will not now quote from that. But once you know about what Mr.

5 Panic testified, is there any other document, statement, testimony,

6 anything that would bring into question this conclusion that you made that

7 you have been unable to unequivocally determine whether Sljivancanin was

8 indeed appointed to command the evacuation?

9 A. If you allow me. I have had time to think about all those issues,

10 but I'm concerned about the understanding of the term "unequivocal" here.

11 It seems to me that it caused much more confusion than I intended. I said

12 that I didn't determine this unequivocally. This means that any other

13 statement might be equivocal so -- or ambiguous, so I should be in a

14 position where there is absolutely no other way to interpret this; and

15 then I will be in the position to say yes, this is how it was.

16 I simply left some leeway for myself, because I didn't have the

17 kind of evidence that I would consider complete. And I left it for the

18 Trial Chamber to make the final determination on the basis of those facts

19 that were not at my disposal when I was making my conclusions.

20 Q. Could you please move on to page 56 of your report, that's the

21 page that contains the footnote number 98 for the Prosecution and Your

22 Honours. This, again, concerns the testimony of the Mr. Panic, and this

23 is something that my learned colleague cross-examined you on.

24 In paragraph 3, you first use the term -- you say:

25 "In documents, the activities of Colonel Pavkovic are quite

Page 15894

1 clearly defined, particularly when it comes to the tasks and jobs that, by

2 their character and significance, pertain to the role of an officer

3 commanding the evacuation."

4 In your conclusions, and I will be asking you questions about

5 that, you referred to the documents from the ECMM, the war log, and the

6 video recording of the conversation between Borsinger and Pavkovic?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. My question to you is: Based on the documents that you had at

9 your disposal, who was in charge of the negotiations regarding the

10 surrender of the Mitnica Battalion, just very briefly?

11 A. Based on the documents, the negotiations on the surrender of the

12 Mitnica Battalion were led by Colonel Pavkovic.

13 Q. Based on the documents that you used, who was in charge of the

14 negotiations with the ECMM and the International Red Cross regarding the

15 evacuation of the hospital on the 19th of November in Negoslavci?

16 A. Again, Colonel Pavkovic.

17 Q. Who interpreted the positions of the supreme command to the ECMM

18 and the ICRC regarding which of the wounded could be evacuated and which

19 could not?

20 A. Colonel Pavkovic.

21 Q. This interpretation take by Colonel Pavkovic to the effect that

22 the supreme command would not allow the wounded members of the ZNG to be

23 evacuated, was that the basis for the triage that was conducted in the

24 hospital?

25 A. It was one of the basis for that, in addition to all the other

Page 15895

1 laws and regulations that deal with this issue.

2 Q. Based on the documents that you had at your disposal, who brought

3 in the convoy of the ambulances to the hospital on the 20th of November

4 for the evacuation of the hospital?

5 MR. WEINER: Objection. There were two evacuations, Your Honour,

6 on the 20th. He should specify the prisoner evacuation or the evacuation

7 of the wounded.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, this was a really very quick

10 response on your part, and the witness could not respond. My question was

11 quite clear: The evacuation of the wounded, not of the prisoners.

12 Q. Who led the convoy for the evacuation of the wounded on the 20th

13 of November. That was my question.

14 A. Colonel Pavkovic was at the head of the column that was supposed

15 to evacuate the wounded on that day, and it is quite clear, there is quite

16 a lot of evidence to that fact.

17 Q. Who led or who handed over the convoy to the wounded to the

18 Croatian side, and who was commended on the Croatian side?

19 A. Based on all of the documents that pertain to this issue and that

20 I had at my disposal, the role of Colonel Pavkovic is quite clearly

21 outlined in all those documents.

22 Q. And the last question on this topic, regarding all those issues,

23 problems about the convoy, and so on, who reported to the OG South?

24 A. On the basis of combat documents referring to this activity, the

25 person that is named there is Colonel Pavkovic.

Page 15896

1 Q. Thank you. You drew certain conclusions in your report, so I will

2 not be going into that. Let me move on to another topic.

3 The Prosecutor asked you some questions about Bogdan Vujic and his

4 communique regarding the events in Velepromet. Colonel Bogdan Vujic

5 within the tasks that he performed in the evacuation of the hospital,

6 could he have been subordinated to Major Sljivancanin? Could Major

7 Sljivancanin issue any orders to him?

8 MR. WEINER: I object to that, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

10 MR. WEINER: That's outside the scope of the cross-examination.

11 JUDGE PARKER: What do you say to that, Mr. Lukic?

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't think so, because Mr. Weiner

13 did ask an explicit question to Mr. Vuga whether he had any knowledge if

14 Colonel Vujic informed Major Sljivancanin about the events in Velepromet.

15 And if this actually stemmed from their relationship of subordination,

16 then I have to clear this up. So that was Mr. Weiner's question, explicit

17 question: Is Mr. Vuga aware that Mr. Vujic said that on the 19th in the

18 evening, he informed Sljivancanin about the bodies in Velepromet.

19 In order to clarify this issue, I want to establish whether there

20 was any subordination relationship between the two in accordance with the

21 regulations and the report.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.

23 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour. The question was concerning what

24 happened at Velepromet, which I asked the witness if he was aware of

25 certain things at Velepromet including the room of death and killings; and

Page 15897

1 then I asked him if he was aware that Mr. Vujic informed Colonel Mrksic

2 during the late evening, and between 1.00 and 2.00 in the morning, he also

3 informed Mr. Sljivancanin. I didn't ask anything about their command

4 relationship, any -- I didn't get into subordination between the two.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may supplement my interpretation

7 before your decision.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, the vote is in your favour at the

9 moment. Ask again.

10 Q. So, Mr. Vuga, you know what I want to hear. In accordance with

11 what you put in your report and the regulations, in light of his task in

12 Vukovar, did Vujic -- was Vujic subordinate to Sljivancanin in any way?

13 A. This question that you asked is something that I dealt with at

14 length in my report, so you can either be satisfied with that or let me

15 make you -- let me make a more simple explanation. Because regulations

16 sometimes may seem complex, it must be said that the officers from the

17 superior command, who go to a place to offer help, go there as officers

18 holding a post and having the kind of experience that guarantees that

19 their capabilities are greater than the persons to whom they offer this

20 kind of assistance, which is called direct assistance in the regulations.

21 So this is not only the usual occurrence, it is actually

22 stipulated in the regulations. In order to preserve this kind of

23 relationship, these capabilities, this kind of assistance are not made

24 subordinate to the person who is not able to use them to the end and in

25 the way that they were meant to be. That is why very seldom those forces

Page 15898

1 are subordinate to the officer to whom they have come to provide

2 assistance. This is stipulated in the regulations.

3 Q. Thank you. Let me move on to another topic. You were shown

4 Exhibit 718, the report on Arkan drafted by the security organ from the

5 1st army Colonel Mile Babic, I will not be putting that on the screen. If

6 necessary, we can do that later. My question to you is whether this

7 document or any other document that you had at your disposal indicated to

8 you that this information was submitted to the security organ of the OG

9 South or Guards Motorised Brigade?

10 A. When I saw this document yesterday, I was doubly surprised. The

11 first surprise was that an operational information was actually that this

12 kind of report was actually drafted by General Babic, the chief of

13 security in the 1st army. The second surprise to me was what actually

14 happened in this report. In light of the position that he held and his

15 duties, General Babic was supposed to indicate that he had informed his

16 commander about the problem that he had identified.

17 That was his duty so that his superior organ, in technical terms

18 or professional terms, may have a complete picture of what happened with

19 this report. This was not done. And this is quite unusual in light of

20 the gravity of the problem and the responsibility, because problems

21 occurred in the area of responsibility of the 1st Army District.

22 So the security organ, with General Babic as the chief and the

23 commander of the 1st Army, were in fact responsible for it. This is what

24 follows from this report, from an expert point of view. I don't know

25 whether I'm missing anything here, but this is my conclusion based on the

Page 15899

1 information that I had.

2 Q. This is an additional explanation, but this is not a very specific

3 answer to my question. From the document, from the addressee, and from

4 the other documents that you had at your disposal, were you able to

5 determine that this document was actually delivered to the security organ

6 of OG South?

7 A. I missed that, because I thought that the way that this document

8 was treated was the same as when I explained that what is usually done

9 with this documents is you inform your subordinate organs and you give

10 them guidelines. So this was not done. This requirement was not met.

11 Q. Thank you. The document that I believe that you are familiar

12 with, that's the order 161482/81, Exhibit 415 issued by General Panic.

13 This is something that you referred to in your expert report. Now my

14 question to you is -- if you want we can put this document on the screen.

15 A. Yes, perhaps it would be good to put the document on the screen.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please put the last page of

17 Exhibit 415 on the screen. Could we please zoom in. I'm interested in

18 paragraph 8.

19 Q. It is stated in quite uncertain terms in this paragraph 8 that

20 nobody has the right to revenge -- to retaliation and other forms of

21 revenge such as those perpetrated by some TO units; and in the future, any

22 such activities -- the perpetrators of any such activities should be

23 arrested and appropriate legal action should be taken.

24 My question to you: Is it clear what TO units are referred to in

25 this, in light of the fact that this was a document originating from the

Page 15900

1 1st Army District?

2 A. There is a clear designation here, local TO; and local TO, in

3 principle, in accordance with the concept and the structure of the TO was

4 the territorial element that was operational in the area where it had

5 actually been mobilised and under the command of the local authorities.

6 Q. Can one determine unequivocally whether this refers to the Vukovar

7 TO or any other TO that was under the jurisdiction of the 1st Army

8 District?

9 A. This is about the units of the local TO, some units of the TO, in

10 plural, all units of the TO that are in the area of the 1st Army District.

11 I don't know what units it actually referred to. But if there were any TO

12 units in this area, it referred to all those units.

13 Q. Let me just point to you that you may be mistaken. All or some

14 units?

15 A. Some units within the local TO, so this is a more specific

16 explanation. I was just giving you just a very general one.

17 Q. Fine. If you have a military unit, who in that unit is in charge

18 of taking disciplinary measures in terms of command and control?

19 A. This is something that a unit commander does.

20 Q. In this document, there are references to General Panic holding

21 the commanders of all levels responsible for the implementation of this

22 order. My question is: What about the security organ? Are they part of

23 the chain of command in any direct way?

24 A. I've explained to you the position of a security organ. They are

25 technically in charge of state security affairs. As for command, they are

Page 15901

1 outside the chain of command. I do have to provide another clarification

2 with regard to the first part of this question, something that had slipped

3 my mind initially.

4 When talking about the area covered by the 1st Military District,

5 anyone wishing to interpret this must take into account everything that

6 fell under the command of the 1st Military District. That's what I wanted

7 to point out, so as to leave room for no exceptions.

8 Q. What about discipline, and what about obeying command orders? Is

9 that considered state security business?

10 MR. WEINER: Objection, Your Honour. Once again, we're outside

11 the scope of cross-examination.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: I withdraw that, Your Honour.

14 Q. [Interpretation] I will now move on to the last topic, something

15 to do with what Mr. Weiner raised, something that you addressed towards

16 the end of your report. This is page 70 of your report. Just before the

17 summary, your opinion is that some knowledge attained by some individuals

18 in relation to the killing of the POWs was concealed before the security

19 organs. Those persons were afraid of being the source of information or

20 potential witnesses for such horrible events. This is what Mr. Weiner

21 asked you about Mr. Vukasinovic's evidence.

22 During our proofing, I think I told you this. But Mr. Weiner

23 invoked the evidence of Mr. Vukasinovic, and I'm telling you that Ljubisa

24 Vukasinovic stated this. This is page 15048. He says that he had heard

25 this from Bozic about certain persons going missing over the previous

Page 15902

1 night, and that these persons had been taken away and killed.

2 And he says, [In English] "I heard this, but I couldn't believe

3 that something of the sort might be possible. At that time, while the

4 combat operation were underway, there were many rumours flying around. It

5 was a war of misinformation."

6 [Interpretation] This is Mr. Vukasinovic's evidence in it's

7 entirety, but Mr. Weiner didn't show you the whole thing. When you

8 answered that question yesterday, at one point in time at page 78, you

9 said in reply to a question about ...

10 My question is: With regard to what I've just read to you,

11 Vukasinovic's evidence, that portion of Vukasinovic's evidence in it's

12 entirety, is it the responsibility of a security organ to check any rumour

13 that get wind of or only what appears to be reliable and already verified?

14 MR. WEINER: I object to that, Your Honour. That's a leading

15 question. That can be asked in a much different way without telling the

16 witness where it's going.

17 JUDGE PARKER: You're quite right, Mr. Weiner. Having now been

18 asked ...

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think there is an alternative

20 included in my question. I'm just telling the witness what he said, and I

21 think things were taken out of context yesterday. Bits of sentences were

22 read out, instead of whole portions of what certain witnesses said.

23 JUDGE PARKER: You can specifically remind the witness of the

24 evidence he gave yesterday; then if you think it's relevant, put to him

25 other passages or the complete passages and ask whether he has anything to

Page 15903

1 add to his answer yesterday.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Vuga, now that I've familiarised you with this entire portion

4 of Mr. Vukasinovic's evidence, does that change anything about your

5 report, or do you stand by your report?

6 A. Thank you. Thank you very much. Both you and Mr. Weiner have

7 greatly assisted me in saying something now that I may have put in very

8 mild terms in my report. It is this: In wartime, there is also a flood

9 of information and misinformation. If you have a melange like that, it is

10 an insurmountable difficulty if you have to track down reliable

11 information and follow it through.

12 I told you what this looked like in peacetime; and now having seen

13 this evidence, this is further confirmation of how it can be under

14 conditions of a civil war, which is a particularly cruel and merciless

15 kind of war. If I knew everything now at the time that I was writing my

16 report, I would have put this conclusion in even stronger terms than I

17 did.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Can we please go

19 into private session.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15904











11 Page 15904 redacted. Private session.















Page 15905

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Vuga, my final question is about the totality of questions

15 that you were asked by all the parties. Certain facts were put to you,

16 but I'm interested in the facts in relation to my client, specifically.

17 The very last page of your report at page 79 is your final conclusion in

18 actual fact, isn't it? I'll first read to you what you say there.

19 You compiled an expert report based on the witness statements, and

20 your conclusion was that Veselin Sljivancanin as acting in compliance with

21 the regulation envisaging what the purview, tasks, competencies and

22 responsibilities of a security organ should be in as far as securing

23 prisoners of war was part of their involvement.

24 Mr. Vuga, yes or no please, yesterday or the day before yesterday,

25 based on any questions that you were asked, would that -- would any of

Page 15906

1 those questions lead you to question this conclusion, your final

2 conclusion in relation to Mr. Sljivancanin?

3 A. After all the questions I've been asked, as far as this sentence

4 is concerned, and if you read it accurately, if you interpret it

5 accurately, translate it accurately, if you understand it accurately, if

6 you see it in the truest possible light, there has been absolutely nothing

7 to lead me to change anything about it.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours. I

9 have no further question for Mr. Vuga.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vuga, you may be able to help the Chamber with

14 one issue. You have, as attachments to your report, two charts showing

15 attachment 1, The Composition Formational Structure of the Guards

16 Motorised Brigade; and the second, attachment 2, showing The Composition

17 of an Infantry Brigade.

18 A. Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Now, one material distinction between those two

20 charts is the chain of command from the commander to the military police.

21 In the Guards Motorised Brigade chart, as we understand it, you say there

22 is a direct command link from the commander to the military police

23 battalion. So it's commander to battalion commander to the composite

24 units of the military police; whereas, in the infantry battalion chart,

25 you show that the only line of command to the military police unit is

Page 15907

1 through the security organ, and in your evidence you gave explanations

2 about that.

3 What interests the Chamber is what is the basis for this

4 distinction? Is there any legal order or provision or is this just the

5 way it happens?

6 A. This solution that we have in this infantry brigade, this is the

7 infantry mountain motorised brigade of that type. They have a military

8 police unit the way it follows from the functions and the purpose of such

9 brigades.

10 This is a standardised solution which, in principle, applied to

11 all brigades of this kind throughout the JNA. What is noteworthy, and

12 this is something that I pointed out at the outset, is the fact that the

13 Guards Motorised Brigade was a peculiar unit and did not function in

14 keeping with these standards or in the same way that these other units

15 were meant to be used.

16 This is also the reason that the functional links within the

17 brigade command were adjusted in such a way that it could carry out its

18 tasks successfully in the way that it was structured, because it did not

19 need and did not like the kind of links that were established in other

20 brigade commands such as discussed earlier. This is the essence, and if I

21 may just provide an additional explanation.

22 The Guards Brigade, if you look at its special purposes and tasks,

23 those that it carried out under regular conditions, those would be very

24 much like the tasks normally carried out by military police units. If you

25 go through the typical tasks of military police units, there are a great

Page 15908

1 deal of similarities; securing persons and buildings, for example. The

2 same thing that military police units do based on their rules of service.

3 Hence, the way the military police were used within the Guards

4 Brigade was different, because this military police unit was an operative

5 unit of the brigade as well as other battalions. And it was trained to

6 efficiently carry out the special-purpose tasks of the brigade; whereas,

7 the military police unit in the infantry brigade did military police work

8 for the purposes of the brigade.

9 Your Honours, I hope the explanation is clear and please tell me

10 if there is any other explanation that is necessary. The other thing is

11 the method. How exactly does the chain of command react in situations

12 like these?

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vuga, from what you say, the difference arises

14 because the Guards Motorised Brigade military police battalion is used for

15 some purposes, at least, that are unique to the Guards Motorised Brigade

16 and aren't encountered in the course of ordinary military police work in

17 ordinary infantry brigades. Is that a correct understanding?

18 A. Your understanding is correct, Your Honour. This is precisely

19 what it's like, and if I may add one thing: Since the function is of a

20 military police nature, then the units in the brigade carrying out that

21 function are very much like a military police unit. It's not the same

22 thing because of the complex nature of their tasks; but in terms of their

23 function, they are very similar.

24 The drills you have within this special-purpose function is --

25 this, for example, a military police battalion, for example, does a drill

Page 15909

1 that would be the sort of drill that a brigade would be expected to do.

2 So that is how relate within the brigade, and then the task is given to

3 the brigades brigade -- right, okay. Thank you. I'm sorry.

4 For a task like that, a brigade staff would have two military

5 police liaison or desk officers who are familiar with that work and who

6 are trained for the monitoring of those drills and also any operative

7 actions taken by that brigade, they are sufficiently qualified. Then a

8 security organ, just as Mr. Pringle pointed out in his expert opinion,

9 can, from their own position, furnish information to the brigade commander

10 based on which the brigade commander may conclude, prompted by a proposal

11 of the security organ, whether he would be using the military police unit

12 according to his own ideas or whether he will incorporate his own ideas in

13 a proposal to the security organ.

14 It is the entitlement of any commander to accept orders -- miss

15 any proposals. There is no direct line between a security organ and a

16 battalion commanders in the sense of any greater influence, because that

17 would constitute an interference with the chain of command which is

18 undesirable. There is communication. There is cooperation. That applies

19 to any unit across the spectrum, but there is certainly no influence being

20 exerted that would he in any way constitute an interference with the chain

21 of command.

22 JUDGE PARKER: What you've been explaining, the difference in

23 structure, then, follows from the distinct functions and purposes to be

24 found for military police in the Guards Brigade as opposed to other

25 brigades.

Page 15910

1 A. Yes, Your Honour, precisely.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any legal basis for this distinction, or

3 is it merely a distinction that has grown out of the functions that are

4 performed?

5 A. The legal basis is the organisation and establishment structure,

6 and then there are the orders stipulating the tasks that are to be

7 performed.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Now, what is the -- we're trying to track down what

9 is the legal basis of that structure. Is it just something that appears

10 in a manual somewhere, or is it just something that works and therefore is

11 recorded as the way this sort of thing should normally be organised?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is important here is

13 specificity. So this is something that falls outside of the standardised

14 solutions, and the specifics lie in the specific orders that are issued,

15 specific tasks. But in the rules and regulations, there is no mention

16 made of the Guards Brigade as part of the Military District, and so on.

17 And that is why it was subordinate directly to the Federal Secretary of

18 National Defence.

19 JUDGE PARKER: So the -- in the rules and regulations, there's no

20 formal distinction made between the Guards Motorised Brigade and other

21 brigades for this purpose; is that correct?

22 A. In the rules and regulations dealing with the other brigades,

23 there is no mention made of the Guards Motorised Brigade.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Does that mean there is no mention anywhere of the

25 Guards Brigade for this purpose?

Page 15911

1 A. When I talked about the purpose in terms of rules of service, the

2 Guards Brigade is not mentioned there. I did not find any rules that

3 would specify this kind of purpose for the Guards Brigade that we are now

4 talking about.

5 JUDGE PARKER: So is it the case that you've prepared attachment 1

6 to reflect what you see to be the actual position in the Guards Motorised

7 Brigade?

8 A. I was given approval to inspect the establishment structure of the

9 Guards Brigade, that document. I did that. I studied it from the point

10 of view of the functioning of the security organ; and in doing so, I was

11 able to understand the distinction between this brigade and the other

12 brigades, because I had previously studied the functions of the security

13 organ in the other brigades. So my opinion was based on this difference

14 between the position of the military police and the security organs in the

15 two types of brigades.

16 Also, because the very peculiarity begs to -- the answer to the

17 question, where is that reflected, in fact? And on the basis of the

18 materials that I studied and the expert reports that had already been

19 submitted about the Guards Brigade, I was able to come to my conclusions.

20 So this is what I base my interpretation of the whole situations, and this

21 is my answer to your question.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. So what you've done is tried to present

23 your conclusions in this -- these two organisational charts to make it

24 easy for us to follow; is that the position?

25 A. Yes. Yes. Precisely, Your Honour.

Page 15912

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I may ask a question that follows from

4 your questions. But perhaps I can give a clarification regarding your

5 question just to clarify things for you, and then perhaps you can ask some

6 further questions to Mr. Vuga.

7 If you remember, during Mr. Panic's testimony, we tendered into

8 evidence. And it was admitted, Exhibit 851, that is the Guards Brigade

9 establishment book. This is what Mr. Vuga referred to. This is a

10 document, an official document dated 31st January 1991, and this was

11 signed by Veljko Kadijevic, this establishment book. This chart of the

12 Guards Motorised Brigade, as an official document, is a constituent part

13 of that book. And this is what Mr. Vuga actually studied. So you have

14 this organisational chart in this exhibit as an official document

15 promulgated by the Federal Secretary of Defence stipulating the structure

16 you have Guards Brigade. So I just wanted to clarify this.

17 This is already an exhibit in this trial, so lest there should be

18 some misunderstanding that he actually drew this chart himself. This is

19 the clarification that I wanted to give you.

20 JUDGE PARKER: That is the understanding I have of his evidence,

21 Mr. Lukic. Your understanding is different.

22 Perhaps you may be able to assist us, Mr. Vuga.

23 I understood you had prepared these charts yourself from your

24 research of the establishment of the different units. Is that correct or

25 not?

Page 15913

1 A. I used the official charts as they were, but there are no charts

2 of the Guards Brigade in any other documents. This is the only chart, and

3 this is the chart that is valid only for the Guards Brigade. It was taken

4 from the establishment book, and this is what I actually talked about. I

5 said that its function was peculiar, unique, specific. I couldn't

6 describe it in any other way, and I could only interpret it on the basis

7 of the original establishment, how it was set up.

8 I didn't want to put myself in a situation where I would invent

9 some kind of a Guards Brigade. I wanted to study thoroughly the situation

10 as it was. But what I did was I did a comparative analysis between the

11 brigade as it is described in the rules of service where you have a marine

12 brigade, infantry brigade, mountain brigade, and so on; and then I

13 compared the functions, tasks, and all the other elements with the

14 function, tasks, and all the other elements of the Guards Brigade. And I

15 presented the differences that we have been talking about here.

16 JUDGE PARKER: So your attachment 1, the chart dealing with the

17 Guards Motorised Brigade, discloses the structure as you actually found it

18 to be functioning when you closely inspected the position in the Guards

19 Brigade; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that is correct. In particular, because this was taken

21 directly from the establishment book. I had sought to have access to this

22 document in order to be able to produce my expert report.

23 JUDGE PARKER: The point of my questioning is that your chart

24 differs from the chart in the establishment book, and the difference would

25 appear to be because you have looked at what was actually happening in the

Page 15914

1 Guards Brigade.

2 A. I studied the actual state of affairs, and the chart was simply a

3 little bit more elaborate to clarify the part that relates to the military

4 police squad for special purposes. But at any rate, this squad did not

5 participate in the tasks that the Guards Brigade performed in Vukovar. It

6 remained stationed in Belgrade and was not an object of further study.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Anything further arising, Mr. Lukic, Mr. Weiner?

8 Very well.

9 Well, now, Mr. Vuga, could I indicate that that concludes the

10 questions that will be asked of you. The Chamber would like to thank you

11 for the assistance you've been able to give and for your attendance here.

12 And you are, of course, now free to go back to your ordinary activities.

13 So thank you indeed. You could, if you like, wait there for a few

14 moments because we expect to be rising now.

15 Do I take it, Mr. Lukic, that that concludes the case for Mr.

16 Sljivancanin?

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all that remains to be

18 done is to tender into evidence these documents on our 65 ter list that

19 have to do with Mr. Vuga's report. Perhaps we could do that after the

20 break so that we don't take up any time that -- from tomorrow, because we

21 have a very busy schedule tomorrow; and then after we do that, this will

22 mark the end of Mr. Sljivancanin's Defence case.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any opposition to any of these documents,

24 Mr. Weiner.

25 MR. WEINER: Yes, there is opposition to some.

Page 15915

1 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. So we're not going to do it in a few

2 minutes. We must then adjourn until ten to 11.00 when we will attend to

3 those issues.

4 Thank you again, sir.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to now

11 tender certain documents. These are documents attached to Mr. Vuga's

12 report. All of these were on our 65 ter list. These documents were used

13 by Mr. Vuga in his report.

14 I have spoken to Mr. Weiner. He has no objections to some of

15 these documents, but he would like to object to some. Therefore, the best

16 course of action would be for me to start tendering one-by-one, so that

17 Mr. Weiner can object to each as he sees fit.

18 The first document is 3D050101 from our 65 ter list, number 23

19 dated the 26th of September, 1990.

20 JUDGE PARKER: What is it, Mr. Lukic?

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All of these documents are documents

22 from a collection of orders, decisions, and reports of the SSNO. One of

23 these sets was tendered by Mr. Weiner yesterday, if you remember when he

24 talked about the negotiation talks between the JNA and the Croatian side.

25 This is a report on attacks against the JNA and military installations of

Page 15916

1 the Federal Secretary of National Defence dated the 26th of September,

2 1991.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1990.

4 JUDGE PARKER: The appears no objection to this.

5 MR. WEINER: There is an objection to this one.

6 JUDGE PARKER: All right, Mr. Weiner.

7 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, this is a document which discusses

8 attacks on the JNA in 1990. There is no discussion relating to Vukovar.

9 This document concerns attacks on the JNA in Slovenia and Croatia. It

10 doesn't appear to be relevant to the issues in this case, and we would

11 object to it on the basis of relevance.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, the relevance?

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the only relevance for

14 me is Mr. Vuga used it in his expert report. The OTP didn't challenge

15 that. In chapter 3 of his report, I think Mr. Vuga invokes this document.

16 If that is deemed irrelevant, I would not fiercely oppose this document

17 not being admitted.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Is this question of relevance going to arise

19 similarly for other documents?

20 MR. WEINER: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It looks as though it may -- our decision on this

22 document may have an impact for other documents then, Mr. Lukic. So maybe

23 you'd better not give ground too quickly.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Nothing is further from my mind than

25 to give ground too quickly. All the other documents that Mr. Weiner will

Page 15917

1 probably be objecting to are relevant to the time of the indictment. This

2 was about 1990, but it was about the overall context of events in Croatia

3 back at the time.

4 Wheeler, an other expert witnesses, also used documents from 1990,

5 and other such documents from 1990 were used for other reports. Mr.

6 Wheeler discussed events from far back, from long ago, and this concerns

7 certain events and certain political developments that happened on the eve

8 of Vukovar. If the OTP wish to object about the time of this document,

9 then I must leave this reservation open. But you will see that all the

10 other documents are only about the time that the indictment concerns.

11 I could furnish an additional argument. In the analysis of Mr.

12 Theunens, there were a lot of documents that were used that were in

13 relation to developments back in 1990; the break-up of Yugoslavia, the

14 special role of the JNA, Kadijevic's book was used and so was Jovic's

15 book, and all these have already been admitted by this Trial Chamber.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 MR. WEINER: Just one quick thing, Your Honour, the book from

18 Kadijevic is not 1990.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner, you were wanting to put something.

20 MR. WEINER: Just very briefly. The book of General Kadijevic is

21 not a 1990 book. It does deal with some 1990 issues. But it also deals

22 with Dubrovnik, it deals with Vukovar, and it was published, I believe, in

23 1993.

24 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will admit this, Mr. Lukic. It does

25 so, because it discerns a very faint thread of relevance. Because of

Page 15918

1 time, it's hardly relevant. But having been relied on by your expert, we

2 will have the source.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this document will be admitted as

4 Exhibit 870.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Next, Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think we may be able to deal with

7 the following three documents more expeditiously, since Mr. Weiner says

8 that he's not objecting. 3D050107, 65 ter document number 24. This is

9 the order of the SFRY Presidency dated the 9th of January, 1991.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 871, Your Honours.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Document 3D050117, the

13 statement of the SFRY Presidency to stop attacks against the army. The

14 7th of May, 1991 is the date that the document bears. 65 ter document

15 number 27.

16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 872, Your Honours.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter document number 28, 3D050121.

19 [In English] "Issue Order and Personal Safety of the Public," date of 8th

20 of May, 1991.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 873, Your Honours.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Next document 65 ter list number 30.

24 [In English]... the Presidency of SFRY." [Interpretation] The number is

25 3D050129 and the date is the 23rd of August, 1991.

Page 15919

1 JUDGE PARKER: We missed the first part of your description of the

2 document, Mr. Lukic. It's something of or issued by the Presidency. Do

3 you know what it is?

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's right. I'll read the original,

5 "Communique from a session of the SFRY Presidency." The title is, Secure

6 Conditions for a Normal Functioning of Defence. The date is the 23rd of

7 August, 1991. This is tab 5, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE PARKER: There objection, Mr. Weiner.

9 MR. WEINER: No objection, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 874, Your Honours.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Next document, tab 6 for you,

13 3D050137. 65 ter list number is 32. "Information of the Federal

14 Secretary for National Defence."

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour. This document, we are also

17 objecting to on the issue of relevancy. It is a document which concerns

18 illegal gun-running. It does not discuss Vukovar. It is -- it does not

19 discuss the issues before this Court. It is very one-sided so there is a

20 question to the reliability of this document, and we would object to it.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is information from the Federal

23 Secretariat for National Defence. Whether it's one-sided or not is up to

24 the Chamber to judge in terms of weight. But let me remind you that when

25 Imro Agotic testified, there were lots of questions being asked about

Page 15920

1 illegal arming in Croatia at the relevant period. And Mr. Agotic provided

2 a lot of evidence about these issues, because he was working for the air

3 force corps in Zagreb at the time. And I think he spent an entire day

4 testifying about illegal -- the illegal arming at the time, and it wasn't

5 challenged at the time as a subject fit for cross-examination.

6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 875, Your Honours.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Next document, tab 7. Mr. Veljko

9 Kadijevic's letter to Lord Carrington, 3D050149, the 18th of September,

10 1991, used in Mr. Vuga's report.

11 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, this document and the following document

12 are pretty much the same. They're both letters from General Kadijevic.

13 One is to the -- the first one is to Lord Carrington, the next one is to

14 Franjo Tudjman. Once again, they are not relevant to the issues before

15 this case, but they are also of very questionable reliability. They are

16 also very one-sided, and they are also in violation -- not in violation

17 but in conflict Security Council resolution 713, where the Security

18 Council finds a few days after these documents were issued that both sides

19 were violating the cease-fire agreements. So this is a very -- these are

20 very one-sided letters of questionable credibility, and we'd object to

21 them.

22 JUDGE PARKER: A lot of evidence that comes before this Chamber,

23 Mr. Weiner, is one-sided. Our task is to try and see where the truth lies

24 between those two extremes.

25 MR. WEINER: Well, that's just our view on them. We claim they're

Page 15921

1 of very little credibility.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Have we not got the Security Council resolution.

3 MR. WEINER: It's a 65 ter document. I'm not sure -- no, it

4 hasn't been tendered.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It might become part of your rebuttal.

6 MR. WEINER: All right. Thank you.

7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received, both of them.

8 THE REGISTRAR: The first letter to Lord Carrington will be

9 Exhibit 876, while the second letter to Franjo Tudjman will be Exhibit

10 877.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Is the second letter in the bundle, is there a tab

12 for that? What number is that, please?

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is tab 9. 3D050155. The letter

14 is dated the 17th of October, 1991.

15 Last document, Your Honour -- I'm not sure if we have received

16 numbers for both these documents or not.

17 JUDGE PARKER: 876 and 877.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, right. There is another letter

19 by Mr. Kadijevic. This is the one that I mentioned a while ago, tab 9.

20 In actual fact, that was tab 8 in your binder, the letter to Franjo

21 Tudjman.

22 The last of this series of letters by Mr. Kadijevic is at tab 9,

23 65 ter list number 35, 3D050155, the 17th of October, 1991.

24 JUDGE PARKER: To whom is this letter addressed?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please. This is Veljko

Page 15922

1 Kadijevic's letter to the ministerial council, the council of Ministers of

2 the European commission on the 17th of October, 1991 about the fact that

3 humanity convoys were being misused as the title suggests. There is

4 reference here to Vukovar and part of the letter, I think, is about the

5 October evacuation; 14th through 17th of October. You will see that at

6 page 2, there are references to Vukovar and the evacuations that took

7 place on the 13th and 14th of October by the Medecins sans Frontieres.

8 MR. WEINER: No objection, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 878, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Is that the lot, Mr. Lukic?

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just to avoid confusion, since I made

13 an error in relation to 877, this is actually 3D050153, Mr. Kadijevic's

14 letter to Franjo Tudjman dated the 23rd of September, 1991.

15 The last document being tendered in relation to Mr. Vuga's report

16 is an interview that Mr. James Baker gave to a Slovene journalist. This

17 was carried by the Belgrade based Politika newspaper on the 5th of April,

18 2005. His view of the break-up of Yugoslavia. The newspaper piece bears

19 the title --

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't catch the title.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] -- And this is something invoked by

22 Mr. Vuga in his report.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Could you repeat the title, please?

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Again, I apologise to the

25 interpreters. It's "Independence By Force." That is the title. It's

Page 15923

1 also on the 65 ter list.

2 The document was not originally in our 65 ter list, but it was

3 disclosed to the OTP a month ago when we submitted Mr. Vuga's report.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.

5 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we have a document here that has no

6 author listed. No person involved in this alleged interview has ever

7 testified in this case. These type of documents or similar document of

8 newspaper articles were utilised in Mr. Theunens's report; and as the

9 Court recalls, the Defence objected to every newspaper or journal document

10 that Mr. Theunens used. The Court, following a policy where the author or

11 someone who was involved was not present, was -- the documents do not come

12 in, apparently followed that same policy and did not admit any of those

13 documents from our expert on the -- in the exact same situation.

14 If that's the policy of the Court, then this document is not

15 admissible either.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have to respond and perhaps it is

18 unnecessary to remind the Chamber. Let me give you an example where we

19 really challenged the admission of an interview, an article.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't catch the name.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] -- That was used by Mr. Theunens

22 unlike this document that we are now tendering, which has the name of the

23 journalist and everything else that is relevant for the identification,

24 yet you admitted this article that was used by Mr. Theunens and many other

25 articles that were used. So the newspaper articles are admitted.

Page 15924

1 They can be admitted as evidence. The question remains, as you,

2 Judge Parker, stated of the weight that you will give to those articles.

3 This is an interview carried in this newspaper with Mr. James Baker who

4 is -- who was the Secretary of State at the time, and this is something

5 that is relevant also for the expert testimony by Mr. Wheeler and was used

6 in the expert report by Mr. Vuga.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Mr. Theunens, not Mr.

9 Vuga.

10 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will not receive this document, Mr.

11 Lukic. An interview in 2005, even if correctly reported, is not going to

12 directly assist the Chamber in this matter, and there has been no attempt

13 at of you authentication of content or of the publication.

14 MR. LUCIC: Thank you. I would like to tender two MFIs that are,

15 in fact, transcripts that we had been waiting for. These are transcripts

16 of the video recordings, and now we have the transcripts MFI 828, I have

17 to apologise here, 838, that's the transcript of the video recording which

18 is Exhibit 837. We received the official translation, that is 3D060008.

19 And can we please have this admitted as the official translation. The

20 video recording is already in evidence.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received as Exhibit 838.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And the MFI 840, that's again the

23 transcript of the individuals video recording exhibited as 839. We

24 received the official translation designated 3D060035, and could this

25 transcript also be given a number as an exhibit.

Page 15925

1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received as Exhibit 840.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have two 92 bis

3 statements to tender into evidence regarding the character witnesses for

4 Mr. Sljivancanin. That is a statement made by Mr. Kasim Medovic and by

5 Mr. Istuan Pap. They are not in e-court yet, so they will be there

6 tomorrow morning. So perhaps we could be given numbers for those two

7 statements tomorrow. And I would seek guidance from you, Your Honours, in

8 one matter. The issue that I have been insisting on has still to be

9 resolved, the transcript of the dialogue between Mr. Vance and Mr.

10 Sljivancanin. This is the transcript of Exhibit number 70. The

11 transcript itself bears the number 69.

12 We have spoken to our colleagues from the Prosecution, and we

13 wanted to sit down and to listen to the tape together with the

14 representatives of the translation service. That one minute of the

15 recording that we consider to be contentious, because we believe that the

16 transcript that has been tendered into evidence does not adequately

17 reflect what is actually said in the recording.

18 The Prosecution told us that they have no interest in

19 participating in the exercise, and the translation that was provided to

20 you, Your Honours, is the translation provided by the OTP. The

21 translation service agrees to do this, because it would take only a

22 minute. Only a minute needs to be transcripted, but they need an order

23 from the Trial Chamber. So could we perhaps have this order from the

24 Bench today, so that we can do this exercise this afternoon. So the

25 alternative would be to listen to this one minute of recording in the

Page 15926

1 presence of the interpreters, and then to have this interpretation into

2 the transcript.

3 The translation service told us that they do not want to evaluate

4 the work of the translators from the OTP, but that they would do so if

5 ordered by the Trial Chamber.

6 Let me remind you, the only contentious issue is whether the two

7 words that we claim are audible are to be entered into the transcript, and

8 there is a sentence that is not translated properly the way we hear it in

9 the B/C/S. So if you could issue this order, we would deal with this this

10 afternoon; and then tomorrow morning, we would have our final proposal.

11 JUDGE PARKER: The two 92 bis statements, Mr. Weiner, any

12 objection?

13 MR. WEINER: No objection.

14 JUDGE PARKER: They will each be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 879 and 880, Your Honours.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE PARKER: There will be an order for translation of a portion

18 of Exhibit 69.

19 I believe the transcript is 69 of 70. That's the transcript of

20 70; is that correct? The other way around?

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The video recording is 70 and the

22 transcript is 69.

23 I would like to ask you, in light of the contacts with the

24 translation service, your order should include the order to listen to the

25 video recording, because they insist on this wording in the order, just

Page 15927

1 the one minute.

2 JUDGE PARKER: We will make an order inviting the translation

3 service to listen to a portion of Exhibit 70 with a view to verifying the

4 translation in Exhibit 69, and to do so in the presence of Mr. Lukic or

5 his representative.

6 Is that enough, do you think, Mr. Lukic?

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. This

8 completes the Defence case for Mr. Sljivancanin.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner, then remains for the recall of a

10 witness tomorrow, P002; is that correct?

11 MR. WEINER: Yes. Mr. Moore will handle that, but if I could

12 address the Court very briefly.


14 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, unless the scheduling in the OTP

15 changes, today will be my final appearance in this case. After six years

16 with the Office of the Prosecutor, I will be leaving at the end of the

17 year.

18 I would like to thank the Court for its patience and its courtesy

19 to me in this case as well as the Strugar case. I would like to wish

20 everyone in the Court, be it attorneys, staff, the translators in the

21 booths, stenographer a very happy and healthy new year as well as a very

22 happy holiday. And I would just like to say personally good-bye to

23 everyone.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Well, Mr. Weiner, I'm sure the Office of the

25 Prosecutor will feel the loss of you. This Chamber has got to know much

Page 15928

1 of you in the last three years. We wish you every success in your life

2 ahead and hope you manage the translation back to the United States

3 without too much difficulty.

4 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, in light of this announcement, I

7 would like to wish the best of luck to Mr. Weiner on behalf of myself and

8 all my colleagues. Apparently, he will not be working in the same sphere.

9 I have been fortunate or, rather, unfortunate, because I have been on the

10 opposite side of Mr. Weiner over the past years. But I have been able to

11 cooperate with him in highly professional terms and may that be this by --

12 I would like to say this by way of good-bye and wish him all the best of

13 luck.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

15 We now adjourn until 9.00 tomorrow.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.35 a.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Friday, the 8th day of

18 December, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.